Dear group,

With thanks to Richard Wilford, here are two adverts for 36 foot Swain yachts, one in BC ($74,000 Canadian), the other in Scotland (approx. $110,000 Canadian).

I nabbed all the photos of these vessels off their respective websites for our files

Kobella - 36 foot Swain (fin keel) for sale in Maple Bay, BC

http://www.maplebaymarine.com/Kobello/kobella.htm

Kerrera - a Swain 36 (fin keel) for sale in Scotland, U.K.

http://www.hcs.dial.pipex.com/kerrera.html

Alex Christie

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:19 am
Subject: Hull materials. There is no Ultimate

Re: Jeff's questions on Swain 36: I know your question was meant in a neutral way, Jeff, but perhaps your previous posts against steel as a hull-building material set you up. It might have been something to be expected, considering this is a steel-boatbuilding forum(!). That said, thank you for clearing the air by indicating that your interest was genuine and in the spirit of enquiry that this group is meant to promote.

Most on this forum accept that a yacht can be built successfully of steel, hence their interest in being here. The forum attempts to distribute and share information about building steel yachts, in this case using the origami methods.

Tasha, whom I know personally, knows too, that fibreglass boats come in all shapes and scantlings, and additionally have circumnavigated successfully, including polar passages. I think she was havin' a bit o' fun here, cuz I know she still sails an Albin Vega (fibreglass, and the type has circumnavigated!). She's a devilish card, that one, and I am going to enjoy having fun at her expense next time I see her on the water or in the pub [where are you anyway, Tasha?].

Sorry Tasha, its my job as moderator to set the record straight -- you can't hide! ;-)

(to be fair, I believe Tasha is contemplating building a new liveaboard in steel using Brent's methods)

As we all know, it is possible to build excellent boats from a wide variety of different materials, and that includes wood (my training is in traditional wooden boatbuilding, with some composite work), steel, fibreglass, aluminum, plywood, reeds, beer-kegs (a catamaran was built using these in Japan), and even Ferrocement. It is how the chosen material is used, rather than solely the material itself, which determines whether the boat is "good" or not. I simply do not think there is any "ultimate" material out there (that is in the realm of affordability for us non-royals here in the colonies) for boatbuilding. Some materials excel at certain things, but rate poorly in other areas, and that is just the way it is. Every material has its detractions for various reasons -- mostly because the caustic and energetic marine environment exacts a high price upon our beloved creations. It is a matter of working around the limitations with proper engineering and forethought, as well as utilizing the constant feed-back available through true-experience. If we work with the nature of the material, then we can build a good boat.

We can debate the relative merits and detractions of various materials, but it would be a foolhardy proposition to state one material the "ultimate", though we proceed to do so anyway!

Brent must be acknowledged for the fact that he has always tried to improve his boats by using feedback from his own experiences, and that of owners. It is for this reason that his guidebook has some really unique solutions to problems in steel boatbuilding that most designers never pay attention to. One of the examples is his solution to the scupper-drain-stain seen on the hull-sides of many yachts (not just steel ones). We've all seen those ugly stains on the sides of boats, but he's found a simple way around it. Builders can ignore his advice, but they do so at their own risk.

As an aside to Ferro cement, I don't plan to build a boat of this material in the near future, but I am not going to slam it, though I used to. Go slam the builders (and some designers) who ignore current knowledge on how to properly use the material for the greatest benefit. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge in engineering knows that just about any material, including ferro, can be engineered to make an excellent boat. Engineering departments at universities make great sport of requiring their students to accomplish unbelievable tasks with common materials. Put "concrete canoe" in any search engine and have a read -- it is quite interesting (they are lighter than you think, yet still fulfill strength requirements).

Jay Benford spent some time working out proper scantlings for some of his designs to be done alternately in ferro (cutter Mercedes). That is what the challenge of engineering is all about, and what a wonderful challenge it is [insert stirring music here]. Someone could say, "I want to build a boat using dried banana peels, corn-husks, baler-twine, and epoxy"; the marine engineer will work out a way to make it happen, and it will likely work, maybe at considerable expense, but you never know...); if it didn't work, then usually the engineering is at fault, not the material (yes there are limits to what material can be used, like building a boat out of, say, water, nitrogen, or other such things).

Anecdote: There is a fine ferrocement cutter in Victoria, originally built in Holland to Lloyd's specifications and a gold-plater finish. I thought it was glass until the owner informed me otherwise. I know, it is only one winner among many flops, but it still tells us to open our minds to this fact: you just can't judge a boat by its material alone.

My later grandfather, a professional forester at UBC in Vancouver, worked at devising boats made of paper. His detractors must have thought him half-mad. If only he could have lived to see the wonders of composite boats that his paper boat idea was in some way a precursor to!

Alex Christie

(moderator)

----- Original Message -----

From: <burr.halpern@annapolis.net>

To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 2:19 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Questions about Swain 36 for sale.

> You are correct that I am not a potential buyer.I am actually in the
> middle of a deal on similar sized boat. The reason that I askec
> the question is more for general knowledge for myself and for
> others who read this board. As I see it, this is a board that is
> visited by people who are interested in home building boats and it
> sounds as if some of them are considering building folded steel
> designs. If someone is considering building a boat it is helpful to
> hear information from someone who is actually going through, or has
> actually been through the process of purchasing the materials and
> doing the work. I think that your experience and observations would be
> helpful. I though some kind of estimate of you overall time and costs
> for such a project would help others evaluate whether this makes sense
> of them and to some extent would allow a potential buyer to get some
> sense of what is involved in finishing the job you started. While I am
> not a fan of steel, (it is probably the last material, except for
> ferricement, that I would consider for a boat under about 45 feet) I
> am still very interested in the construction process for any material.
> My questions were not meant in any kind of negative way. I was just
> seeking a little more knowledge from someone who has actually 'been
> there'on a steel boat.
>
> Regards
> Jeff
>
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 1:22 am
Subject: Determining costs for hull building

Costs of building: It certainly must be hard to quantify how much goes into a home-built craft, when building in any material, because it is so dependent on the individual boatbuilder, their resources, and what resources are available to be had for building the vessel (and at what price). This is likely what drives varying numbers reported for hull construction. Ultimately you do what you have to do in order to get the thing built. Time spent on labour has value, and so should be added to the cost of the boat if you are selling it partially built.

Brent's boats lend themselves particularly well to the scrounger because they use materials which can be found in non-marine product environments (scrap yards). Other boat designs may benefit from this as well, but to a lesser degree. Epoxy, for example is not usually found cheap, nor is clear boat lumber, but there are other items which can be scrounged for these types of boats too.

Expressed genuine interest in what time and costs are involved in building a hull has some merit here, and may help people plan out their time and finances before engaging the project. It would be interesting to break down the yacht-building process into stages and collate data for time and money spent, and post this as a chart. I'll keep my ears open on this when I talk to builders in the future. I'll create a folder in the files at some point, and others can add to it as they go, should they wish.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

Replies Author Date 147 Re: Determining costs for hull building willyacht@y... Mon 5/28/2001

From: willyacht@y...
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics

Regardless of what material Jeff likes or dislikes. We need to dig deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to the emotion.... Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Jeff fullstop. I cant even recall when i last saw one of these hitech hulls in Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands, or wherever your favourite remote cruising ground is. Yet i see plenty boats with people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are on third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do. By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted, with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home for repairs? With due respect to Jeff, you only have to be in Aukland one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Jeff, this is just part of the game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Jeff?? Even if it is wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people refuse to acknowledge. What i largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy plastic, steel and ferro. Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat, and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long term cruising. I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these boats are really thought out well let alone be designed by somebody who has actually cruised. This assumes most who build metal boats want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they wont have the time to cruise. It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this category and simply have a arrogant diposition and laugh at people who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do anything cruiser. My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines of many cruisers dreams. I think most people who have practical common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel. Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some el cheapo Beneteau which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias towards production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly opposite. So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am sorry to say Jeff your reasoning is not part of common cruising folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate. SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time and does the job who really cares about those other things. Just like most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the world who can do the kind of boats the Jeff advocates. Since this group is about people interested in building these kind of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals, and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that should tell you something. Will --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > You are correct that I am not a potential buyer.I am actually in the > middle of a deal on similar sized boat. The reason that I askec > the question is more for general knowledge for myself and for > others who read this board. As I see it, this is a board that is > visited by people who are interested in home building boats and it > sounds as if some of them are considering building folded steel > designs. If someone is considering building a boat it is helpful to > hear information from someone who is actually going through, or has > actually been through the process of purchasing the materials and > doing the work. I think that your experience and observations would be > helpful. I though some kind of estimate of you overall time and costs > for such a project would help others evaluate whether this makes sense > of them and to some extent would allow a potential buyer to get some > sense of what is involved in finishing the job you started. While I am > not a fan of steel, (it is probably the last material, except for > ferricement, that I would consider for a boat under about 45 feet) I > am still very interested in the construction process for any material. > My questions were not meant in any kind of negative way. I was just > seeking a little more knowledge from someone who has actually 'been > there'on a steel boat. > > Regards > Jeff > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...> wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > I'd rather negotiate price on an individual basis, but > judging from your previous posts about steel boats I suspect that you > are not a not a potential buyer. > > I am selling because the boat does not meet my needs. I need/want a > bigger boat. It is a nice fair hull and I have no reservations > whatsoever about the construction method. My next boat will hopefully > be of the folded steel variety. > > I am asking $30,000 because that is what I estimate has been put > into the boat. Anyone who buys the boat at this point will get a nice > hull and save a lot of time. > > If anyone is interested, give me a call or stop by and see me, I'm > in Campbell River. Paul Liebenberg From: willyacht@y...
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: Determining costs for hull building

I dont think metal is hard to quantify, its actually the best material to produce a cost and a time line. The most unfortunate thing about steel is that you charged for waste. But using the scrounging approach waste might be a minor consideration, since you will beg borrow or steal to fit!! Steel is a commodity that is very competitive and you really got to have unusual reasons for cost increases. My experience has been that most times i have been spot on in terms of hull structure, but been way off in the "unusual areas" like rudder bearing, plastics, stainless, and other hitech materials and paints etc, these products just seem to increase every few months. The rig and engine can be also be spot on. What is the hardest and is always way off is the boats interior. Sometimes i marvel at how quick and cheap the hull is on the excel spreadsheet, then just freak and say why is everything not made out of steel. Thats why my boat is aluminium, since i had the philosophy of welding in everything i could. I could blow up a cow in my boat and hose it down. Thats only something you can achieve in metal. Unfortunately no can do in steel because of weight. I will be watching with interest to see a Aluminium Swain Hull, because the potential for wash and wear is great. Will --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Costs of building: It certainly must be hard to quantify how much goes into a home-built craft, when building in any material, because it is so dependent on the individual boatbuilder, their resources, and what resources are available to be had for building the vessel (and at what price). This is likely what drives varying numbers reported for hull construction. Ultimately you do what you have to do in order to get the thing built. Time spent on labour has value, and so should be added to the cost of the boat if you are selling it partially built. > > Brent's boats lend themselves particularly well to the scrounger because they use materials which can be found in non-marine product environments (scrap yards). Other boat designs may benefit from this as well, but to a lesser degree. Epoxy, for example is not usually found cheap, nor is clear boat lumber, but there are other items which can be scrounged for these types of boats too. > > Expressed genuine interest in what time and costs are involved in building a hull has some merit here, and may help people plan out their time and finances before engaging the project. It would be interesting to break down the yacht-building process into stages and collate data for time and money spent, and post this as a chart. I'll keep my ears open on this when I talk to builders in the future. I'll create a folder in the files at some point, and others can add to it as they go, should they wish. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) From: sunyataspirit@y...
Date: Mon May 28, 2001 4:50 pm
Subject: Aluminum Swain

Hi Will, Great post on economics and home built/finished boats. There is an aluminum Swain hull under construction here in Nanaimo and when Alex has a chance to get down here hopefully he'll be able to get some pictures. Cheers, Richard

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From: winslow59@y...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 7:33 pm
Subject: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB

Has anyone here had a hull/deck built by Confidence Custom Boat Building (CCBB)? Quality of work? Cost? If not -- any opinions? http://www.boatbuilding.ws

Replies Author Date 152 Re: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB neilhuget@c... Wed 5/30/2001 153 Re: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB brentswain38@h... Thu 5/31/2001

From: sunyataspirit@y...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 10:05 pm
Subject: Re.CCBB

I don't know much about them but their website seems to indicate some measure of experience. One item of note is that from what I have heard , and this is hearsay, they don't pay a residual to Brent for each boat built from his plans; whereas it is generally a condition of sale that only one boat may be built from a set of plans from a designer. If this is correct then I feel there may be a somewhat dubious lack of ethics at play here which may have the potential to extend itself to the construction process. Their prices seem somewhat high, no doubt due to the fact that there is overhead and a work crew to pay for. When a hull is pulled together by Brent, or Evan Schaler the overhead is minimal as they work on their own. I believe that having the hull built by either of the afore mentioned is very cost adventageous and the quality of work well known. Just my personal thoughts. Richard From: neilhuget@c...
Date: Wed May 30, 2001 11:36 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Any experience with or opinions about CCBB

I assume you've seen Confidence's web site... Without the usual series of frames I'd be concerned about hull strength and that both sides were symmetrical. It's quick to build, but we aren't talking about a toy boat in a puddle here. Plus, the used Brent Swain boats I've seen for sale on the net are selling pretty cheap and I'm wondering why when they aren't very old and the interior seems as nicely done as much more expensive steel boats.

Replies Author Date 153 Re: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB brentswain38@h... Thu 5/31/2001

From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 12:37 am
Subject: Re: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB

Most of my boats sell for many times what their owners have invested in them .A well progammed product of the consumer society judges the value of everything by the price tag attatched, making him a sitting duck for a typical used car salesman.Most experienced offshore cruisers are more inclined to use their own logic rather than simply respond to such programming. Most people who have built and cruised extensively in my boats wouldn't even consider building anything else.Winston Bushnell sailed his first brentboat around the pacific , first to Hawaii, then through the Marshals, Carolines, Japan, Aeutians and back to BC. He sold her to build one of my 26 footers to sail through the NW passage.After that trip he sold that boat to build another 36 to do the circle pacific trip again, his third brentboat. Before this he had done a circumnavigation.His daughter is now building one of my 26 footers. Mike Ward is returning from New Zealand in his second brentboat and talking about building a third for a non stop circumnavigation. Jack Carson, having completed a circumnavigation on one of my 36 ft twinkeelers is on his second brentboat. The structural strength of my boats have been well proven in high speed collisions with everything from steel barges to icebergs to log booms to pounding on coral reefs, to 16 days pounding on a leeshore on the west coast of the Baja in 12 foot surf, to being dropped up to 15 feet to a single season passage through the northwest passage to several circumnavigations , all without transverse frames , and all without major structural dammage. I know of few other designs with such a proven track record . Measureing the distance between the hull -deck joint and the centreline, I've found my boats symetrical to within 1/16th of an inch , much better than most of the production fibreglass boats in existence. When something has been so well proven over a period of twenty years and over 100 boats, saying it won't work is about as intelligent as telling a returning astronaut as he's stepping out of the space shuttle " The world is flat, you know" If you hit a framed boat with a sledge hammer , the closer you hit it to a frame , the easier it is to dammage it. Transverse frames have proven time and time again to be a structural liability, not an asset.It's much easier to punch a hole in a boat next to a transverse frame than in the middle of a plate. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., neilhuget@c... wrote: > I assume you've seen Confidence's web site... > Without the usual series of frames I'd be concerned about hull strength and > that both sides were symmetrical. It's quick to build, but we aren't talking > about a toy boat in a puddle here. Plus, the used Brent Swain boats I've > seen for sale on the net are selling pretty cheap and I'm wondering why when > they aren't very old and the interior seems as nicely done as much more > expensive steel boats. From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 4:13 am
Subject: Steel masts vs stability

There's been recent exchange on steel masts, with some discussion on their positive stability effects if sealed (though this does mean that you're already far enough over to submerge the mast.....). I've seen other comments upon the earlier negatice stability effects of the extra weight aloft - have the steel mast proponents looked at that?

Norm Facey

Replies Author Date 156 Re: Steel masts vs stability willyacht@y... Thu 5/31/2001 157 Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles burr.halpern@a... Thu 5/31/2001 158 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Thu 5/31/2001 163 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle burr.halpern@a... Fri 6/1/2001 164 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Fri 6/1/2001 206 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle cdbarry@h... Mon 6/11/2001

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:29 am
Subject: Re.CCBB royalties issue

According to what Brent told me not long ago, the royalties issue has been resolved and relations are currently on the level with Confidence Boatbuilding. Alex Christie (moderator) > I don't know much about them but their website seems to indicate some measure of experience. One item of note is that from what I have heard , and this is hearsay, they don't pay a residual to Brent for each boat built from his plans; whereas it is generally a condition of sale that only one boat may be built from a set of plans from a designer. If this is correct then I feel there may be a somewhat dubious lack of ethics at play here which may have the potential to extend itself to the construction process. > Their prices seem somewhat high, no doubt due to the fact that there is overhead and a work crew to pay for. When a hull is pulled together by Brent, or Evan Schaler the overhead is minimal as they work on their own. I believe that having the hull built by either of the afore mentioned is very cost adventageous and the quality of work well known. > > Just my personal thoughts. > > Richard > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@e... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@e... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: willyacht@y...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 11:00 am
Subject: Re: Steel masts vs stability

All Weight above the waterline will affect stability. You boat needs a reasonable static stability figure in the first place before you will start to have a huge impact. Many of the protagnists in the stability debate seem to ignore totally the fact that most cruising boats will be overloaded with excess weight, roller furlers, radar towers etc. This overloading has a huge impact generally on a boat with an initially low figure. Studies have shown that a typical cruiser once equipped with a roller furling and other odds and sodds will have as much as 15 degrees less positive static stability. Getting back to the question, yes it does have a impact on stability only if its poor in the first place. Secondly if the boat has a good high range initially the positive range can increase by as much as fifteen degrees using a sealed mast. This positive effect can negate all the heavy overloading if you do get knocked down. Thirdly a boat with a heavy mast will increase a boats resistance to capsize, over the same boat with a lighter mast. A heavy taller object increases the boats roll inertia. Start off with a good design, good static stability and the effects of sealed mast and heavy roll inertia will come onto play making the boat seaworthy. But if you a go fast junkie you will want to tow the line and install a fried pretzel. Will --- In origamiboats@y..., "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> wrote: > There's been recent exchange on steel masts, with some discussion on their positive stability effects if sealed (though this does mean that you're already far enough over to submerge the mast.....). I've seen other comments upon the earlier negatice stability effects of the extra weight aloft - have the steel mast proponents looked at that? > > Norm Facey

Replies Author Date 157 Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles burr.halpern@a... Thu 5/31/2001 158 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Thu 5/31/2001 163 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle burr.halpern@a... Fri 6/1/2001 164 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Fri 6/1/2001 206 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle cdbarry@h... Mon 6/11/2001

From: burr.halpern@a...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 12:39 pm
Subject: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles

Actually, this business of using a steel mast has struck me as pretty strange as well. While it is true that carrying a sealed spar will help with inverted stability, the weight of that spar carried high up in the boat means that you are more likely to get that spar in the water. It is especially a problem in a boat that already carries a high center of gravity (due to such heavy items as a steel deck and topsides, chain anchor rodes carried on deck, moderately high cabin structure constructed in steel, etc,) Further exacerbating this issue is the fact that the boats are shoal draft, and use widely splayed bilge keels (resulting in the leeward keel remaining to leeward of the center of buoyancy until the boat reaches a reasonably high angle of heel (Eyeballed at 50-60 degrees) and the depth of the hull which lowers the center of gravity; all of that on a narrow wall-sided Hull, Unless the laws of physics has been suspended and I had not noticed, a high VCG in relationship to the center of gravity results in a boat that rolls though wider roll angles and is more prone to heeling. This high heel angle was confirmed in Brent's comments on his use of a wide splay angle on the bilge keels. Modern boats purposefully designed for offshore work, with the current trend in very low center of gravities, are designed to sail at heel angles less than 20 degrees with 10-15 degrees being more optimal. Bilge keels as shown on Armelle appear to be at an angle optomized for this more vertical sailing angle. There are a number of elements to a stability curve for any boat that are critical to a long range cruiser. The first is discussed a lot around here. That would be the range of positive stability which Brent estimates at a very high angle. The second is the magnitude of the positive stability at normal heel angles (In other words the amount of force that is required to heel a boat when it is within its normal sailing angles.) It is here that I really question the idea of doing anything (especially as extreme as using a steel mast or carrying a chain anchor rode on deck) that raises the center of gravity on the boat. As Will points out, a heavier or taller spar has a greater roll moment of inertia. This means a couple things, the boat will roll at a slower rate, but it will store more kinetic energy and so will be prone to rolling through a wider roll angle. This higher roll moment might reduce the likelihood of a knockdown due to excitation (rolling in situation where the frequency of the waves are at the same natural frequency of the boat) but in a situation where a boat is being rolled by a breaking wave, the more common and dangerous form of a boat being rolled over due to wave action, the inertia of the high center of gravity will carry the boat further through its roll and make it more likely that the boat will get its mast tip in the water. This is a critical element to the likelihood of a rollover because when a boat takes a major knock down it begins to slide to leeward on its topsides (its keel is no longer at an angle to the water to generate much lateral force) and so dipping a mast tip means that driving the mast and sails through the water which of course will greatly increase overturning force. (Been there, done that, got the teeshirt- Lucky to be here to tell the story) The affect on wide roll angles and large heel angles is that the boat is more prone to taking a major knockdown and the boat is also going to be harder on its crew. During the post Fastnet Studies the key issue cited over and over again, regarding the cause of sheer number of major knock downs, was high center of gravities relative to the center of buoyancy on the boats of that era. It is one of the key faults cited in Marchaj's seminal (but slightly dated) book on 'Seaworthiness'. While I know I am about to hear about the half dozen of these boats that have made major passages and circumnavigations, I still say, that proves nothing. Hunter Marine used to have a list of over a 100 circumnavigations performed in their boats and they have a guy who just finshed his second circum-navigation previously in a Hunter 37 and this time in a Hunter Passage 42. Supposedly he is about to order another Hunter. None of us would look at a Hunter (except perhaps the HC50) as a boat designed for offshore work. Respectfully Jeff

Replies Author Date 158 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Thu 5/31/2001 163 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle burr.halpern@a... Fri 6/1/2001 164 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Fri 6/1/2001 206 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle cdbarry@h... Mon 6/11/2001

From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 2:00 pm
Subject: Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles

--- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > Actually, this business of using a steel mast has struck me as pretty strange as well. A couple of comments on different aspects of your post: 1) I thought that it was pretty clear from context that steel masts were only under consideration when the overall weight was similar to the weight of an aluminum mast. 2) The post-Fastnet analysis also concluded that the very light masts of ocean racers contributed to a low roll moment of intertia, and that boats with heavier masts were less likely to be rolled by a breaking sea. 3) Consideration of each bilge keel indiviually leads to error. To get a correct view, they must be consdered together. A little trig exercise will reveal that the projected area (plan view) of two bilge keels remains the same at all angles of heel: As the windward one becomes less effective, the leeward one becomes more so. With well- splayed keels, the windward keel will come out of the water earlier, causing an enourmous increase in righting moment. 4) The range of performance among heavy displacement sailing vessels of the same size is comparitively small, especially off the wind. 5) Note on B. Swains's earlier post: I think it is a legitimate point of view that the only reason to use frames in any construction is to be able to use thinner planking. Once the decision is made to use planking (plating in this case) heavy enough to stand, there is every reason to dispense with frames. If construction accuracy is a problem, then temporary forms can be used. Peter

Replies Author Date 163 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle burr.halpern@a... Fri 6/1/2001 164 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Fri 6/1/2001 206 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle cdbarry@h... Mon 6/11/2001

From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 6:58 pm
Subject: construction photos

Dear Group, I have posted the URL for the complete construction sequence of the bare hull of Gene's Swain 36, into the groups's "bookmarks" section. The URL is http://members3.clubphoto.com/gene232990/Boat_Pix_2/ Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 161 Re: construction photos brentswain38@h... Thu 5/31/2001

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 9:58 pm
Subject: Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby

Here is an interesting thing to ponder:

The following shows work done by Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby. I immediately recognized the photo of the first sailboat on the page as a Brent Swain hull, even though they indicate it as their own design on the web-page. Close examination of the bow roller shows it to be made exactly to Brent's plans as well. A phone call to Gunter at Sail Tech confirmed that the boat indeed is one of Brent's (I hope they paid him), but they have not since credited Brent as designer on their site. It is a 36, not a 39 as they claim. I do not know why they would say this.

http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/konesky/sailtech.htm

Sail-Tech home page:

http://www.sailtechintl.com/s/Home.asp

Their 47 footer is listed at $750,000.

Although they are making good use of the ease and speed of the technique, and promote it as such, but it does not appear that they are passing the savings on to the customer....

It is a little ironic that they purport to be the originators of the technique, but I also note that they are selling stocks in their company, so are trying to create a strong public image for potential investors. Unfortunately knowing what I do about them, it has the opposite effect on me, and I would be highly reluctant to invest in a company that is not entirely honest. They should give credit where credit is due.

My feelings are that they are putting out a good product, but are not entirely up-front about the origins of their design principle, but it is encouraging to see that the technique is being accepted.

It is, furthermore, a tip of the hat to Brent from naval architect Grahame Shannon has seen fit to convert his Amazon 47 design to Brent's technique for Sail Tech so that it can be built more easily, yet not suffer loss of performance.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

Replies Author Date 162 Re: Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby brentswain38@h... Thu 5/31/2001

From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:24 pm
Subject: Re: construction photos

In tests published in Cruising World, a model which would be rolled through 360 degrees by a given sized wave ,without a mast, would only be rolled 40 degrees with a mast in ,by the same size wave. By the time the mast is set in motion, the wave has passed, unless the mast is extremely light. This , it has been suggested ,is probably why boats often get rolled over the second time after losing their mast in the first rollover, a good reason for building the strongest possible mast.( ie steel) Boats sailing alongside one another with a much heavier 6 5/8th inch OD mast don't seem to sail at a noticably greater angle of heel than sisterships with a 5 1/2 inch OD mast, perhaps because only 20% of the heeling pressure is from the weight of the rig, and 80% is from the pressure on the sails. Twin keels , being shallower have much less of a tripping effect on the hull than a deeper keel. Their centre of lateral resistance is much higher, as they are much higher up the deadrise.Thus the whole hull is much more prone to get knocked sideways by a wave than it is to be tripped and capsized . Another weight saving consideration is the ability to weld tangs and other fittings directly to a steel mast with 100% strength, making them much simpler and thus saving weight in the proccess.The 100% strength is also a plus.Making the welds longer than the cross section of the tangs improves this guarantee. A 6 inch OD steel tube has roughly the same weight as a solid 6 inch diameter fir solid mast and roughly the same weight as a 5 1/2" by 8" box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, a common size for 36 footers a few years back. Tangs and fittings for a wooden mast would be much heavier, as they would be more complex. I was skeptical when my clients first began using steel masts, but they have been highly successful, and those who have used them say they would use nothing else. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have posted the URL for the complete construction sequence of the > bare hull of Gene's Swain 36, into the groups's "bookmarks" section. > > The URL is http://members3.clubphoto.com/gene232990/Boat_Pix_2/ > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu May 31, 2001 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby

The boat in the picture looks like the one Ken Splett built for Fastwater Marine when they were in Richmond. If it is, I was paid for it. It was sold to Ian Leckie who is finishing it in Calgary. Gunter bought a set of drawings for the 36 and Ken scaled them up to 39 ft and Beneteau-ized the stern and pilothouse.He also increased the depth of the keels.I didn't have drawings for the 40 at the time. The 47 looks like one he built at Shelter Island in Richmond.He ran into serious distortion problems when he melted lead into the keels, a practise which works well for steel, but a disaster in aluminium. Building a mould for custom shaped ingots is a better idea. Ken recently built a couple of origami aluminium 53 footers where he built a steel mould for the ballast, melted it full of lead, then dropped the works into the aluminium keel and welded an aluminium airtight cap over it . That worked well. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Here is an interesting thing to ponder: > > The following shows work done by Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby. I immediately recognized the photo of the first sailboat on the page as a Brent Swain hull, even though they indicate it as their own design on the web-page. Close examination of the bow roller shows it to be made exactly to Brent's plans as well. A phone call to Gunter at Sail Tech confirmed that the boat indeed is one of Brent's (I hope they paid him), but they have not since credited Brent as designer on their site. It is a 36, not a 39 as they claim. I do not know why they would say this. > > http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/konesky/sailtech.htm > > Sail-Tech home page: > > http://www.sailtechintl.com/s/Home.asp > > Their 47 footer is listed at $750,000. > > Although they are making good use of the ease and speed of the technique, and promote it as such, but it does not appear that they are passing the savings on to the customer.... > > It is a little ironic that they purport to be the originators of the technique, but I also note that they are selling stocks in their company, so are trying to create a strong public image for potential investors. Unfortunately knowing what I do about them, it has the opposite effect on me, and I would be highly reluctant to invest in a company that is not entirely honest. They should give credit where credit is due. > > My feelings are that they are putting out a good product, but are not entirely up-front about the origins of their design principle, but it is encouraging to see that the technique is being accepted. > > It is, furthermore, a tip of the hat to Brent from naval architect Grahame Shannon has seen fit to convert his Amazon 47 design to Brent's technique for Sail Tech so that it can be built more easily, yet not suffer loss of performance. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) From: burr.halpern@a...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 2:20 am
Subject: Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles

--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > > Actually, this business of using a steel mast has struck me as > pretty strange as well. > > A couple of comments on different aspects of your post: > > 1) I thought that it was pretty clear from context that steel masts > were only under consideration when the overall weight was similar to > the weight of an aluminum mast. Reply: I would agree that the moment of inertia and performance of a steel mast would be the same as an aluminum mast of equal weight, BUT, if the two masts were of equal weight then either the aluminum weight mast will be way stronger than would be required for the loads involved or the steel mast would be very undersized for the loads. In other words, A60 steel is three times heavier for a given cross section than Aluminum, but only 1.5 times stronger than aluminum. (Of course the equation gets worse if A36 steel (common cold rolled structural steel) is used.) Beyond that, given the long panel lengths and the typical combination of bending and axial loads found in a typcial rig, the sectional properties will often govern such that in reality a steel mast may end up being over twice as heavy as an equal strength aluminum mast. > 2) The post-Fastnet analysis also concluded that the very light masts > of ocean racers contributed to a low roll moment of intertia, and > that boats with heavier masts were less likely to be rolled by a > breaking sea. Reply: Actually the studies after the Fastnet disaster concluded that a high roll moment of inertia was beneficial in the single 'rogue wave' circumstance. While it is true that a heavy spar is one way to increase roll moment of inertia, increasing the moment of inertia by raising the center of gravity carries a stiff penalty with it. A better solution from the standpoint of comfort a sea, as well as stability, and safety is using a bulb keel which increases the moment of inertia and also lowers the center of gravity at the same time. This lower center of gravity permits more sail to be carried comfortably which provides a benefit in both light air and heavy. > > 3) Consideration of each bilge keel indiviually leads to error. To > get a correct view, they must be consdered together. A little trig > exercise will reveal that the projected area (plan view) of two bilge > keels remains the same at all angles of heel: As the windward one > becomes less effective, the leeward one becomes more so. With well- > splayed keels, the windward keel will come out of the water earlier, > causing an enourmous increase in righting moment. Reply: Actually you are right here. Assuming that you had two boats with the same weight and same center of gravity, it does not matter whether the keels have a wide or narrow splay angle. That said, the apparent weight of a bilge keel clearing the water will go up by 64 or so pounds per cubic foot so because it no longer has the buoyancy of the water helping to float it. > > 4) The range of performance among heavy displacement sailing vessels > of the same size is comparitively small, especially off the wind. Reply: I really think that this one is dead wrong. I can perhaps illustrate this with an example. First lets talk about two boats of the same exact weight. One has a heavy hull, deck, rig and a very heavy interior. It is traditional in appearance with comparatively long ends. It has a low aspect ratio keel with a lot of surface area and uses a low density ballast which because of its bulk is carried comparatively high relative to its center of buoyancy and results in a keel with a lot of camber. Now, compare that to a boat with a light hull, deck and interior. Its equal weight comes from larger tankage and storage carried low in the boat, much of this weight below the water line. It has a long water line which permits finer sections and a shallower canoe body. This permits a longer span on the keel and permits less wetted surface for the same amount of lift. This boat uses a hollow keel foil as one of its water tanks and has a high density bulb keel of equal weight to the ballast in the first boat. This boat would have a substanially lower center of gravity and could carry a taller and more powerful rig, and more over could carry more sail in a building breeze. It would also roll through a smaller angle and at a slower roll rate. So, I would think that the second boat would be faster on all points of sail but especially so on a reach where its longer waterline length makes a real difference in hull speed and its lower drag would really have an effect since the boat would spend more time at or near hullspeed. Probably the most graghic example that I am aware of is the case of a Brewer 12.8 and a Whitby 42 coming up the Atlantic two years ago. The Brewer uses the same hull as the Whitby but the Brewer has cored decks and topsides. Both boats weigh the same but the weight savings on the Brewer from the coring is used for additional ballast. The Whitby has a full keel while the Brewer has a cut away forefoot and cutaway behind the keel and in front of the skeg hung rudder reducing wetted surface and permitting a more efficient foil shape. The greater stability from the heavier keel allows the Brewer to carry a cutter rig while the Whitby's are a ketch. Coming up the Atlantic a few years back, both boats left Miami at the same time but the Brewer made it to Beaufort in under 5 days compared to the Whitby's over 6 days and the Brewer has substanially fewer engine hours. I know that this is too small a sample to be a terribly scientific representation but you can easily visualize that boats of equal weight will not have equal comfort, speed, or seakeeping depending on how the hulls are modeled, the weight is distributed, and the keel and rig employed. > > 5) Note on B. Swains's earlier post: I think it is a legitimate point > of view that the only reason to use frames in any construction is to > be able to use thinner planking. Once the decision is made to use > planking (plating in this case) heavy enough to stand, there is every > reason to dispense with frames. If construction accuracy is a > problem, then temporary forms can be used. > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse frames that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames play an important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those that would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment that in the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to the skin.

Replies Author Date 164 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle pvanderw@o... Fri 6/1/2001 206 Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angle cdbarry@h... Mon 6/11/2001

From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 2:17 pm
Subject: Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles

Comment (not rebuttal): > Reply: Actually the studies after the Fastnet disaster concluded that a high roll moment of inertia was beneficial in the single 'rogue wave' circumstance. Yes, they were talking about a single wave. I think that 'breaking crest' is probably a better term than 'rogue wave.' It seems to me that many rogue waves are blamed for too many accidents, and seems to imply that the accident was due to bad luck. The 'rogue' was just a wave that caught them wrong. > Reply: I really think that this one is dead wrong. I can perhaps > illustrate this with an example. First lets talk about two boats of > the same exact weight. I concede the point, but I have to say that in describing the two boats you have exagerated their dissimularity. By making them the same weight but different waterlines, you have given them different length/disp ratios, while I was thinking of equality. Peter From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Jun 1, 2001 5:21 pm
Subject: loads on keel striking bottom

Jeff wrote: > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse frames > that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames play an > important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those that > would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being > drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment that in > the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge > area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to the > skin. On Brent's boats, I think the high deadrise of the hull bottom midships would adequately handle the load imparted form an impact on the bottom of the fin keel. It is very difficult to push in the point of a triangle, and the hull bottom has similar geometry, with the keel essentially put on to the point of a shallow triangle. Brent explained it quite well to me yesterday, and maybe he'll step in and give a better illustration/explanation than I have here. From what I saw on Paul Liebenberg's boat, the twin keel version has substantial transverse webs running across the tops of each keel to spread the lateral and perpendicular point loads imparted to the skin. It would be of interest to see what Grahame Shannon did in his Swain-style version of the Amazon 47 in aluminum. The hull midships looks to be more of a shallow arch, and there surely must be some sort of web in there to take up loads, or else it may be vulnerable to the problems Jeff expressed concern about. The 47 foot hull on the Sail Tech website www.sailtechintl.com shows a fin keel. Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 166 Re: loads on keel striking bottom brentswain38@h... Sat 6/2/2001 172 Re: loads on keel striking bottom burr.halpern@a... Sun 6/3/2001

From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 9:27 pm
Subject: Re: loads on keel striking bottom

One of my boats spent 16 days punding on a lee shore in 12 foot surf before being dragged through the surf, being picked up and dropped 12 feet every wave for 1/4 mile, with no serious dammage. Another 36 hit the reef leaving Suva and pounded 300 feet accross the coral reef before being dragged back accross the reef by a tug ,to deep water. The only dammage was a crack in the wood mast and a small dent in the keel. Both were single keels. My twin keeler hit a rock at 5 knots with both keels.The boat went from 5 knots to zero , instantly ,and I went through the open hatch. One of the trailing edges of the keels was driven in a couple of inches and had to be jacked down with a hydraulic jack. I've since welded a floor across the webs to triangulate the webs ,which will completely prevent this in the future. On new boats, I triangulate the centreline by making the entire centreline into a tank, with the back of the tank where the trailing edge of the keels meet the hull.I've done this with Paul's boat too. This would make it impossible to drive the keels up into the hull. It also makes use of a hard to use space, and , with a 12 by 24 inch inspection plate and a plexiglass window , makes it easy to access and inspect or work on the tank at any time. On the issue of knockdowns, one of the things which have proven to reduce the likelyhood of a knockdown is an increase in inertia( Weight ) of the vessel. Perhaps Jeff would have had less of a knockdown if he'd been in a heavier boat.How did your hatches fare ? did they keep the water out as a metal hatch would have ? Did you suffer any structural dammage? Even in a light boat, Metal ( aluminium) is the best hatch material available. It can even make a boat very difficult for thieves to get into, unless the windows are too large. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse frames > > that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames play an > > important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those that > > would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being > > drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment that in > > the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge > > area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to the > > skin. > > On Brent's boats, I think the high deadrise of the hull bottom midships > would adequately handle the load imparted form an impact on the bottom of > the fin keel. It is very difficult to push in the point of a triangle, and > the hull bottom has similar geometry, with the keel essentially put on to > the point of a shallow triangle. Brent explained it quite well to me > yesterday, and maybe he'll step in and give a better > illustration/explanation than I have here. > > From what I saw on Paul Liebenberg's boat, the twin keel version has > substantial transverse webs running across the tops of each keel to spread > the lateral and perpendicular point loads imparted to the skin. > > It would be of interest to see what Grahame Shannon did in his Swain-style > version of the Amazon 47 in aluminum. The hull midships looks to be more of > a shallow arch, and there surely must be some sort of web in there to take > up loads, or else it may be vulnerable to the problems Jeff expressed > concern about. The 47 foot hull on the Sail Tech website > www.sailtechintl.com shows a fin keel. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator)

Replies Author Date 172 Re: loads on keel striking bottom burr.halpern@a... Sun 6/3/2001

From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Sat Jun 2, 2001 10:46 pm
Subject: 36' Building pictures

I took a look at the pictures of the guy building the 36' boat, and the site where they are building in aluminum using the origami method. The pictures of the guy building the 36' boat was real eye opener. It looked like he pulled off the side of the road in a clearing where some pieces of logs were available and started building this boat! So much for a level site, an accurate jig for holding all the frames, heavy equipment for handling plates etc. that one would think are basic requirements! Yet the results look very good, and very fast. The company using the Origami method to build aluminum boats looks like they have taken Brent's concept a little farther, by developing software to calculate the shapes of the sheets and produce CNC files to do the cutting. Is Brent able to develop different hull shapes using equations or a CAD system, or is the shape of the panels derived empirically? I am in the process of refurbishing an old Catalina 22. As I do this and read about Origami boats I keep thinking, for the man hours I have in an old boat that will still be an old boat when I am done I could build a new one! I have all the skills, Machining both manual and CNC, Welding with Mig, Tig, or Stick on most metals, Cad design of machinery, Control panel wiring, Rigging and Millwrighting. Now all I have to do is convince myself to do it. Gary H. Lucas From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 5:06 am
Subject: New folder uploaded to Origamiboats

A folder of Winston Bushnell's Dove III has been uploaded to the files section for your interest. This is the Swain 26 (Centreboard and stub keel) boat which transited the Northwest Passage from west to east.

Images are from the boat listed at www.harbouryachtsales.com

Alex Christie

(moderator)

From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 2:40 pm
Subject: Question about Origami method

Brent, I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a hull. It seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is bent. That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a compound bend. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, does this imply that one could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its length and find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints are? I am trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final shape looks like. I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino, a 3D surface program. If I could then the program can generate hull volume, center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting to play with. Gary H. Lucas

From: turpin@y...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 3:08 pm
Subject: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, > it's not a compound bend. Is this correct? .. A topologically flat surface stays topologically flat (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch the material. That's mathematics. As to the practice, Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the cutting and bending used to build origami boats stretches the steel.) > I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in > Rhino, a 3D surface program. .. I played with early versions of Rhino, and found it fairly complex. Are the later versions more intuitive? Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you can model an origami hull shape by drawing the sheer, the midline, and the joint, and then this tool should fill in the hull. What would be more interesting is if it includes the means then to go backwards, unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing how it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! Then you could model all sorts of things, and unroll them to get the cuts. Russell

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Question about Origami method

Hi Gary, and welcome to the group. There may be a delay in Brent answering your question, as he has to get to a public terminal, so hang in there for a day, and a response will be forthcoming. At least 100 of his boats have been built, a good portion by him; I'm sure he'll have a good answer for you! I found that making the model from the pattern as printed in his guidebook was an eye-opener for me. Because the paper is also a sheet material, it seems to act more or less in the same way as the steel would (though I guess paper is not ductile). There is software from europe which is not for boats specifically, but could be applied in such a manner. It is an "unwrapping" program that allows you to take any object and unwrap it into a flat surface. I believe it has been employed to design packaging such as cardboard boxes, but it could be applied to many other things too. I'll see if I can dig up the name of that software. I don't know, being unfamiliar with programs, but maybe this is something that can be done as part of CAD already? It sounds like with all your metal working skills you've got the "right stuff". You'd be a shoe-in for this kind of boatbiulding. Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Question about Origami method > Brent, > I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a hull. It > seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is bent. > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a compound > bend. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, does this imply that one > could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its length and > find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints are? I am > trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final shape looks > like. I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino, a 3D > surface program. If I could then the program can generate hull volume, > center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting to play > with. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@e... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@e... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: burr.halpern@a...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: loads on keel striking bottom

This is begining to make a lot more sense. Originally, these boats were described as "frameless" and I reacted rather negatively since from an engineering stand point you need a lot more than 3/16 plate on an over 10,000 lb vessel to achieve adequate strength without any frames. As this discussion has been progressing it has been pointed out that these boats are not really frameless. They have longitudinal framing and the have transverse floor framing in the area of the keel. These are beginning to sound like a normally framed light steel boat. Add a couple knees or transverse frames at the shrouds, stem, and backstay and a strong back at the keel and engine beds and you have a normally framed small steel boat. We can all tell our tales of being on a boats that hit hard and survived. My own 28 footer (which I would best describe as a very light weight, but well engineered, coastal cruiser/racer) struck bottom at just under 8 knots and while some of the energy was dissipated by the boat jumping vertically, the keel had absorbed the energy of slowing a boat by 6-7 knots. When we hauled out for the season we found virtually no damage except a slight mushrooming of the lead keel tip which we beat back with a metal workers hammer and refaired. Of course, the impact load in stopping a 4100 lb boat is a very small fraction of the impact in stopping a stopping a heavy weight cruiser. Brent suggested that "Perhaps Jeff would have had less of a knockdown if he'd been in a heavier boat." and asked "How did your hatches fare? Did they keep the water out as a metal hatch would have ? Did you suffer any structural dammage?" To answer Brent's question, while I have been through a lot of knock downs in small day racers, the knock down in question actually did occur on a heavy cruisng boat. We might have actually faired better in a lighter boat with a higher righting moment and lower center of gravity. With the light boats that I have knocked down on, there is a point at which the boat actually slides sidewards on its topsides. The boat that I was refering to in my post and that Brent was asking about was a heavy cruiser with a very heavy aluminum spar. That boat was rolled to an angle well past 90 degrees, and far enough to get the mast tip in the water. The forward hatch was in the water and sustained a fair amount of pressure as the boat bottomed out in the trough of the waves. There was no damage to the hatches that I could tell and the forward hatches did not take water. The main companionway hatch, (a fiberglass sliding hatch with teak hatch slides) was not in the water as best as I can speculate (its not where my eyes were focused) and it did not take green water nor was it damaged. Once the mast tip was in the water our sidewards motion seemed to slow and the boat jerked over what I would estimate to be probably an additional 15-20 degrees as we hit the trough and the mast drove into the back of the next wave. I was left hanging from the boom vang with my legs clear of the deck. On that boat we suffered some sail damage, some gear like winch handles going over the side, and a bent stanchion. There may have been more damage but at this point in time I can't recall anything else specifically. Several of the crew were pretty banged up by flying gear or being tossed during the last piece of the snap roll. On my own boat, I experienced the phenomina of taking a knock down and sliding on our topsides in winds over 65 knots (A nearby boat pegged their anemometer at 65kts. We under a double reefed mainsail and were not flying a jib. My boat knocked down to what I have always estimated as approximately 60 to 70 degrees of heel. At that angle of heel the boat was sliding sidewards on her topsides. The waterline was about even with the inside of the coamings and the cabin sides were in the water. There were occasional rooster tails off of the winches on the cabin top. The forward hatch and companionway were not in the water (in fact the companionway did not have the top slide in place but we took no solid water down below). The spreaders were not in the water but were quite close at different points in the wave train. When I was able to get to the mainsheet (which was underwater) and release it, the boat stood up enough (probably to 30 degrees of heel so that the keel and rudder were in the water and I could feather up and steer. From that point on we were able to maintain something less than a 30 degree heel angle by a combination of sail trim and steering corrections. This was by no means easy. Obviously, had this storm lasted more than a half hour at these windspeeds (it dropeed pretty quickly into the 20's), it would have worn out our crew of two to the point of being dangerous. Then again this was on a 4100 lb 28 footer that was not really intended for that kind of high wind conditions. In terms of damage, we lost the upper batten out of the mainsail but otherwise the boat was none the worse for wear. We were the only boat around us that was able to beat clear of the River mouth and several large cruising boats were beached when they could not make to weather (or put their bow through the wind) against the conditions. In that same storm a 30,000 lb, 44 foot heavy cruiser (that we had been cruising with) took a knock down to what we estimate to be pretty much the same angle of heel (60-70 degrees) as we sustained but they were under bare poles. The only damage that I recall is that she had minor damage to her soft dodger. Jeff --- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: > One of my boats spent 16 days punding on a lee shore in 12 foot surf > before being dragged through the surf, being picked up and dropped 12 > feet every wave for 1/4 mile, with no serious dammage. > Another 36 hit the reef leaving Suva and pounded 300 feet accross > the coral reef before being dragged back accross the reef by a > tug ,to deep water. The only dammage was a crack in the wood mast and > a small dent in the keel. Both were single keels. > My twin keeler hit a rock at 5 knots with both keels.The boat went > from 5 knots to zero , instantly ,and I went through the open hatch. > One of the trailing edges of the keels was driven in a couple of > inches and had to be jacked down with a hydraulic jack. I've since > welded a floor across the webs to triangulate the webs ,which will > completely prevent this in the future. > On new boats, I triangulate the centreline by making the entire > centreline into a tank, with the back of the tank where the trailing > edge of the keels meet the hull.I've done this with Paul's boat too. > This would make it impossible to drive the keels up into the hull. It > also makes use of a hard to use space, and , with a 12 by 24 inch > inspection plate and a plexiglass window , makes it easy to access > and inspect or work on the tank at any time. > > On the issue of knockdowns, one of the things which have proven to > reduce the likelyhood of a knockdown is an increase in inertia( > Weight ) of the vessel. Perhaps Jeff would have had less of a > knockdown if he'd been in a heavier boat.How did your hatches fare ? > did they keep the water out as a metal hatch would have ? Did you > suffer any structural dammage? > Even in a light boat, Metal ( aluminium) is the best hatch > material available. It can even make a boat very difficult for > thieves to get into, unless the windows are too large. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> > wrote: > > > > > > Jeff wrote: > > > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse > frames > > > that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames > play an > > > important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those > that > > > would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being > > > drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment > that in > > > the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge > > > area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to > the > > > skin. > > > > On Brent's boats, I think the high deadrise of the hull bottom > midships > > would adequately handle the load imparted form an impact on the > bottom of > > the fin keel. It is very difficult to push in the point of a > triangle, and > > the hull bottom has similar geometry, with the keel essentially put > on to > > the point of a shallow triangle. Brent explained it quite well to me > > yesterday, and maybe he'll step in and give a better > > illustration/explanation than I have here. > > > > From what I saw on Paul Liebenberg's boat, the twin keel version has > > substantial transverse webs running across the tops of each keel to > spread > > the lateral and perpendicular point loads imparted to the skin. > > > > It would be of interest to see what Grahame Shannon did in his > Swain-style > > version of the Amazon 47 in aluminum. The hull midships looks to be > more of > > a shallow arch, and there surely must be some sort of web in there > to take > > up loads, or else it may be vulnerable to the problems Jeff > expressed > > concern about. The 47 foot hull on the Sail Tech website > > www.sailtechintl.com shows a fin keel. > > > > Alex Christie > > > > (moderator) From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?

> A topologically flat surface stays topologically flat > (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch the > material. That's mathematics. As to the practice, > Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the > cutting and bending used to build origami boats > stretches the steel.) Because steel, like most materials, is stronger in compression than in tension, a sheet of steel will not always bend into the theoretical ruled surface. The designer Weston Farmer described using this phenomenon to get a more nearly round-bilged hull for his Taihitana design. I repeat here only what I have read; I have no independent or engineering knowledge this phenomenon. Peter From: burr.halpern@a...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: Question about Origami method

While it is posible to form steel into compound curves (look at most any automobile) the tools required are beyond those available to most amatuer boat builders. Most steel boats are built with conic sections (sections that can be derived from a cone shaped object) with the panels curved into developable shapes. You are correct in assuming that at any point in the hull (except the chine)you should be able find an orientation at which a straight edge would lie flat against the hull. Obviously these lines of orientation are neither vertical or horizontal. Jeff --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a hull. It > seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is bent. > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a compound > bend. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, does this imply that one > could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its length and > find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints are? I am > trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final shape looks > like. I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino, a 3D > surface program. If I could then the program can generate hull volume, > center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting to play > with. > > Gary H. Lucas From: turpin@y...
Date: Sun Jun 3, 2001 10:01 pm
Subject: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

--- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface > between two single-dimensioned curves? .. Thinking about this, a few minutes after I posted, I realized that the topologically flat sweep between two curves is not unique. In most cases, there is an infinite number of simply-curved surfaces that can be fit. If you're still following this, with the image of a line segment sweeping along both boundaries, the variation depends on the relative speed its end points move along them. It's no longer obvious to me how a CAD program would let you model the folded shape, beyond specifying the flat cut-out, and letting you identify the joints that are glued together. Russell

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:32 am
Subject: tortured plywood, origami-style solo canoe

Just found this site from Duckworks magazine, which has a link for a tortured plywood solo canoe. The patterning is sort of similar to the Brent Swain style for the steel boats, except that in this case the "tabs" or tongues which are pulled together are in the top strake zone, whereas on Brent's boats they are on the bottom. For a small punt, it would be easy enough to get the sides fair. On a 36 or 40 foot boat, it'd be better to leave the top panel unbroken in order to achieve easy fairness.

Brent's aluminum dinghy design, shown in the files section, uses the tabs on the bottom, like his larger boats.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:36 am
Subject: ...and here is that site (oops)

to err is human...

Here is, at last, the URL for the folded ply solo canoe:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/swampyankee/index.htm

Alex Christie

(moderator)

From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

> Thinking about this, a few minutes after I posted, I > realized that the topologically flat sweep between two > curves is not unique. More thought may be required, because Mother Nature is imposing more restrictions than you are considering. It is not enough that the surface of the sheet have non-crossing straight lines from one curve to the other, but that any two points must be the same distance apart (measured along the surface) on the bent sheet as on the flat sheet. With this added restriction, there will be, in general, no surfaces that meet the criteria. For particular curves, there will be one surface. This answers the question of how software unwraps the surface: by dividing the surface into small triangles, then laying the triangles out on the flat. Peter

From: turpin@y...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 6:53 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > More thought may be required, because Mother Nature is > imposing more restrictions than you are considering. It > is not enough that the surface of the sheet have > non-crossing straight lines from one curve to the other, > but that any two points must be the same distance > apart (measured along the surface) on the bent sheet > as on the flat sheet. .. IF the modeled surface has no compound curves THEN it can be unfolded (unrolled) onto a flat sheet isometrically, i.e., in a fashion that preserves distance. This may require a cut (think of a cone). And in some cases, the unfolding may result in overlap that can't come from a single sheet of steel. > With this added restriction, there will be, in general, > no surfaces that meet the criteria. .. I think you're wrong here. Or misunderstanding the idea. Remember: the modeled surface is topologically flat, by virtue of being swept out by a line. Russell

From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 7:44 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

> I think you're wrong here. Or misunderstanding the idea. > Remember: the modeled surface is topologically flat, by > virtue of being swept out by a line. It is possible to create a compound curve by sweeping with a line. In fact, it is possible to create a saddle point surface (concave down on the x-axis, concave up on the y-axis) with a ruled surface. PHV

Replies Author Date 181 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? turpin@y... Mon 6/4/2001 182 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? pvanderw@o... Mon 6/4/2001 183 Re: Double doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D h turpin@y... Mon 6/4/2001 184 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? burr.halpern@a... Mon 6/4/2001 187 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? pvanderw@o... Tue 6/5/2001 192 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/6/2001 193 Re: hyberbolic paraboloids & ruled surfaces pvanderw@o... Wed 6/6/2001

From: turpin@y...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > It is possible to create a compound curve by sweeping > with a line. .. This raises the question: What do you mean by "sweep"? Take any smooth 2d surface. If there is a part of the surface where you can lay a straight edge so that the edge contacts the surface for an interval, then the surface is simply curved at the points along that interval. Or to put it another way, if you put a straight edge against the surface at any point of compound curvature, positive or negative, it will meet the surface *only* at that point. The way I was using "sweep," the modeled surface is a set of straight line segments, each between two points on the boundary. Russell

Replies Author Date 182 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? pvanderw@o... Mon 6/4/2001 183 Re: Double doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D h turpin@y... Mon 6/4/2001

From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 9:29 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

> The way I was using "sweep," the modeled surface is > a set of straight line segments, each between two > points on the boundary. Here is a web page with drawings of a number of "ruled surfaces," including a saddle point (Example 1) http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs3621/LAB/surface/ruled.html Example 3 shows a shape made by sweeping a straight line between two circles. A steel sheet can not be bent into this shape. Example 4 shows a shape made by sweeping a line between two arches, on inverted from the other. The curves do not have to be this different for the shape to become non-developed. For example, if a chine line becomes straight near the bow and the deck line is very full, the shape will probably be hard or impossible to build with sheet material. Peter

Replies Author Date 183 Re: Double doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D h turpin@y... Mon 6/4/2001

From: turpin@y...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: Double doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

You're right. I need to rethink my reasoning. Russell From: burr.halpern@a...
Date: Mon Jun 4, 2001 11:37 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

Actually, I think that you are discribing what in math terms is called a 'hyperbolic paraboloid'. A hyperbolic paraboloid does not produce a compound curved surface but is a developable surface, again made up of conic sections and which can be described by a series of straight lines. As such, a hyperbolic paraboloid can be produced in sheet metal and is the basis of any boat fabricated from dimensionally stable sheet materials with the possible exception of "tortured plywood" which is the precurser to almost all folded or 'origami' type construction techniques. Jeff --- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > > > I think you're wrong here. Or misunderstanding the idea. > > Remember: the modeled surface is topologically flat, by > > virtue of being swept out by a line. > > It is possible to create a compound curve by sweeping with a line. In > fact, it is possible to create a saddle point surface (concave down > on the x-axis, concave up on the y-axis) with a ruled surface. > > PHV

Replies Author Date 187 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? pvanderw@o... Tue 6/5/2001 192 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/6/2001 193 Re: hyberbolic paraboloids & ruled surfaces pvanderw@o... Wed 6/6/2001

From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 1:07 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?

I tried several 3d programs a few years ago to see if they would be useful to me. I spent a few days with several different packages and found that after a few days I could not model many of the parts I needed to create a machine we were building, the learning curve was too steep. I got the demo version of Rhino and by the end of the second day I had enough of the machine built that looked pretty complete unless you zoomed in close for all the details. So I consider Rhino to be very easy to use. The current shipping version is 1.1, which is what you get if you download the demo. However all the people who really use Rhino day to day are running version 2 Beta copies. Rhino's betas are more reliable than most software in their regular releases! Version 2 has quite a bit of hydrodynamic functions and there are a number of boat designers using it. It does calculations like buoyancy, center of buoyancy, volume etc. There are lots and lots of ways to create surfaces! Rhino is the tool many people fall back on when packages like Solidworks, and Pro E have trouble with complex surfaces. Rhino can also unroll developable surfaces into a flat pattern now, but not with the demo version. I believe if I can figure out how to create the hull shape Rhino will give me a flat pattern. It is possible that something as simple as a 2 rail sweep with a straight line will produce much of the hull shape. Rhino lists for $795 but you can find it for as low as $425. The demo version is a full package, nothing is disabled but you only get to run it for 25 sessions, and you can't leave it on over night to save sessions. I highly recommend you try it if this sort of thing interests you. Gary H. Lucas > > I played with early versions of Rhino, and found it > fairly complex. Are the later versions more intuitive? > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface > between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you > can model an origami hull shape by drawing the sheer, > the midline, and the joint, and then this tool should > fill in the hull. What would be more interesting is > if it includes the means then to go backwards, > unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing how > it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! > Then you could model all sorts of things, and unroll > them to get the cuts. > > Russell > From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 3:05 am
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

A developable has to have zero Guassian curvature. This means that two adjacent rulings have to be co-planar, or that the cross product of the cross product of the ruling and the tangent to the chine at one end and the cross pruct of the ruling and the other tangent is zero. From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 1:48 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

> Actually, I think that you are discribing what in math terms is called a 'hyperbolic paraboloid'. A hyperbolic paraboloid does not produce a compound curved surface but is a developable surface, again made up of conic sections and which can be described by a series of straight lines. As such, a hyperbolic paraboloid can be produced in sheet metal. Portions of the 'hyperbolic paraboloid' surface can be developed, but the saddle point (where the ruling lines cross) can not, as can be seen in a instant in the diagram. The other hyperboloids pictured illustrate that not all 'sweeps' can be developed. http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs3621/LAB/surface/ruled.html Peter

Replies Author Date 192 Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/6/2001 193 Re: hyberbolic paraboloids & ruled surfaces pvanderw@o... Wed 6/6/2001

From: halgordon@e...
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 8:56 pm
Subject: Michael Kasten's designs

Has anyone built The Cutter, Bedouin? Or the Mini Kat?

Replies Author Date 189 Re: Michael Kasten's designs Alex & Kim Christie Tue 6/5/2001

From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 5, 2001 10:30 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Michael Kasten's designs

I have been waiting for a week for a reply from Kasten as to which of his designs have been built, but have so far not heard back. His last e-mail suggested I buy one of his study plans. Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: <halgordon@e...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Michael Kasten's designs > Has anyone built The Cutter, Bedouin? > Or the Mini Kat? > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 12:13 am
Subject: Re: Question about Origami method

In theory the hull bends in one direction only, but in practise the shrinkage from the cutting torch and welding shrinks the edges of the plate, leaving about an inch of compound curve between the deck and the chine.This contributes greatly to the fairness and stiffness of the topsides.This is far less in the case of a hull cut with plasma with it's reduced shrinkage. In the bow, the stiffness of the hull plate results in a slight hollow in the foreward waterlines. I don't have the plates in Cad cam yet, but hope to in the future. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a hull. It > seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is bent. > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a compound > bend. Is this correct? Assuming this is correct, does this imply that one > could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its length and > find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints are? I am > trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final shape looks > like. I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino, a 3D > surface program. If I could then the program can generate hull volume, > center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting to play > with. > > Gary H. Lucas From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 12:19 am
Subject: Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?

Alex is scanning the plate shape which should answer a lot of these questions. You can build a rugged model by cutting the pattern out of a flat sheet of fibreglass( one layer of matt wetted out, available from most plastic shops) , pulling it into a hull shape and fibreglassing the inside after pulling the beam into the proper shape.This is easier if the model is fairly large. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, > > it's not a compound bend. Is this correct? .. > > A topologically flat surface stays topologically flat > (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch the > material. That's mathematics. As to the practice, > Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the > cutting and bending used to build origami boats > stretches the steel.) > > > I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in > > Rhino, a 3D surface program. .. > > I played with early versions of Rhino, and found it > fairly complex. Are the later versions more intuitive? > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface > between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you > can model an origami hull shape by drawing the sheer, > the midline, and the joint, and then this tool should > fill in the hull. What would be more interesting is > if it includes the means then to go backwards, > unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing how > it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! > Then you could model all sorts of things, and unroll > them to get the cuts. > > Russell

Replies Author Date 194 Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply peter kittel Wed 6/6/2001

From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 2:06 pm
Subject: Re: Doh! (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)

--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > > Actually, I think that you are discribing what in math terms is > called a 'hyperbolic paraboloid'. A hyperbolic paraboloid does not > produce a compound curved surface but is a developable surface, > again made up of conic sections and which can be described by a > series of straight lines. As such, a hyperbolic paraboloid can be > produced in sheet metal. > > Portions of the 'hyperbolic paraboloid' surface can be developed, > but the saddle point (where the ruling lines cross) can not, as can > be seen in a instant in the diagram. The other hyperboloids pictured > illustrate that not all 'sweeps' can be developed. > > http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs3621/LAB/surface/ruled.html > > Peter A hyberbolic paraboloid is a ruled surface, but is not developable. Developable surfaces must be ruled, but not all ruled surfaces are developable. In fact, between any two chines there exists an infinite number of ruled surfaces but at most one is developable. The hyperbolic paraboloid has one principal curvature that is the circle perpendicular to the axis and the other the hyperboloid in the axis plane. One is positive, the other negative and their Guassian curvature (the product of the two principals) is negative, not zero. To be developable the rulings have to be a principal curvature.

Replies Author Date 193 Re: hyberbolic paraboloids & ruled surfaces pvanderw@o... Wed 6/6/2001

From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 3:13 pm
Subject: Re: hyberbolic paraboloids & ruled surfaces

> A hyberbolic paraboloid is a ruled surface, but is not developable. > Developable surfaces must be ruled, but not all ruled surfaces are > developable. Yes. When I said otherwise in post 187, I was reacting off the cuff to post 184, and I realized that I had made a mistake just about as soon as I hit the send button. Anyone who tries to induce a saddle shape in a piece of paper will see that the hyberboic paraboloid shown at the link is not developable. Peter From: peter kittel <whalesandsails@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 6, 2001 10:59 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?

Hello Alex,.. this is peter kittel whalesandsails@y... when I joined you guys I just wanted to look in on the discussion , perhaps participate, occasionally, at my own speed. - NOT get swamped by e-mail daily that I don't recall asking for. Would you stop it please! and no hard feelings, okay..? Do you know a Brent Swain boat(32' feet ?) called 'Sarsaparilla'? I wonder what happened to them, i met them 11 years ago in Costa Rica, I liked both of them, and was impressed by their boat, hence my interest now. Question: Would it be possible to cut one of your boats at the widest beam (later on) and insert a piece to lengthen it , meaning: do all hull lines , apart from the keel allow this? If you want to know what I did since meeting Sarsap. try: www.juprowa.com/kittel , please pass them my numbers if you are in touch with them. thanks! peter --- brentswain38@h... wrote: > Alex is scanning the plate shape which should answer > a lot of these > questions. > You can build a rugged model by cutting the > pattern out of a flat > sheet of fibreglass( one layer of matt wetted out, > available from most > plastic shops) , pulling it into a hull shape and > fibreglassing the > inside after pulling the beam into the proper > shape.This is easier if > the model is fairly large. > Brent > Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > > That is, it only bends in one direction at any > point, > > > it's not a compound bend. Is this correct? .. > > > > A topologically flat surface stays topologically > flat > > (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch > the > > material. That's mathematics. As to the practice, > > Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the > > > cutting and bending used to build origami boats > > stretches the steel.) > > > > > I'd like to see if I could model a shape like > this in > > > Rhino, a 3D surface program. .. > > > > I played with early versions of Rhino, and found > it > > fairly complex. Are the later versions more > intuitive? > > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat > surface > > between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you > > can model an origami hull shape by drawing the > sheer, > > the midline, and the joint, and then this tool > should > > fill in the hull. What would be more interesting > is > > if it includes the means then to go backwards, > > unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing > how > > it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! > > Then you could model all sorts of things, and > unroll > > them to get the cuts. > > > > Russell > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From: "David Hilliar" <david@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 12:17 pm
Subject: Michael Kasten

Hi all

I have just recently recieved an email from Michael. He is/has been on holiday but has returned my email.

I too would be interested in hearing about his designs, They apeal to me with their traditional design and looks.

David

From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 1:16 pm
Subject: Got It!

All this talk of hyperbolic paraboloids makes my head spin! I have always been very good at visualizing 3D objects from 2D and so forth, but I am very weak in the advanced math department. I printed out the hi-res pictures of the posted 36' boat under construction and have been looking at those pictures every so often trying to my mind wrapped around those curves. Last night I cut out a paper version by eyeball and folded it up. I also played a little in Rhino to see how I might construct a hull like this. It finally hit me and it is SO simple! Here's how it works. The hull is made up ENTIRELY of CONIC sections, straight lines ruled on the surface all come to a common point. The first conic section is the center portion of side from the point on one side of the T shaped cutout to the other. The sides of the hull at the center only taper inward a few degrees, so this conic section has its center point WAY below the bottom of the hull, say 100 feet on a 36' hull. The second conic section is at the bow. Its CENTER is at the point of the T cutout and it sweeps from the start of the first section around to a point near the bottom of the T cutout. A third conic section is formed from the edge of the second and the weld line, and it sweeps along the bottom of the first conic section where the hard chine is. The stern works in similar fashion. What makes this so difficult to visualize is that the conic sections may not have a constant radius, and there are only two curved edges, visible the rail at the top of the first section, and the hard chine line at the top of the third conic section. The other edges are all irregular because they meet the rail at an angle or they meet the centerline of the boat. What this all means to me is that the hull can EASILY be modeled in a 3D program, and that Rhino in particular can unwrap this thing to a flat pattern with no problem! The only distortion you should get is from the welding, which Brent indicated is minimal, and at the center point of the second conic section which is located at the top point of the T cutout. It appears that making a circular cutout at the center point would greatly reduce distortion and the amount of effort needed to pull the plates into alignment. A small disk of material, possibly pounded in a somewhat hemispherical shape could then be used to plug the round hole smoothly. I hope to make a 3D model and unfold it over the next few days. If I am success I will post some pictures of the result. Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 197 Re: Got It! brentswain38@h... Thu 6/7/2001

From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Jun 7, 2001 11:23 pm
Subject: Re: Got It!

If the two top corners at the top of the T total 180 degrees, there should be no distortion there ,and there hasn't been any problem there. If there is, it can easily be fine tuned out after the rest of the boat has been pulled together. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > All this talk of hyperbolic paraboloids makes my head spin! I have always > been very good at visualizing 3D objects from 2D and so forth, but I am very > weak in the advanced math department. I printed out the hi-res pictures of > the posted 36' boat under construction and have been looking at those > pictures every so often trying to my mind wrapped around those curves. Last > night I cut out a paper version by eyeball and folded it up. I also played > a little in Rhino to see how I might construct a hull like this. It finally > hit me and it is SO simple! > > Here's how it works. The hull is made up ENTIRELY of CONIC sections, > straight lines ruled on the surface all come to a common point. The first > conic section is the center portion of side from the point on one side of > the T shaped cutout to the other. The sides of the hull at the center only > taper inward a few degrees, so this conic section has its center point WAY > below the bottom of the hull, say 100 feet on a 36' hull. The second conic > section is at the bow. Its CENTER is at the point of the T cutout and it > sweeps from the start of the first section around to a point near the bottom > of the T cutout. A third conic section is formed from the edge of the > second and the weld line, and it sweeps along the bottom of the first conic > section where the hard chine is. The stern works in similar fashion. What > makes this so difficult to visualize is that the conic sections may not have > a constant radius, and there are only two curved edges, visible the rail at > the top of the first section, and the hard chine line at the top of the > third conic section. The other edges are all irregular because they meet > the rail at an angle or they meet the centerline of the boat. > > What this all means to me is that the hull can EASILY be modeled in a 3D > program, and that Rhino in particular can unwrap this thing to a flat > pattern with no problem! The only distortion you should get is from the > welding, which Brent indicated is minimal, and at the center point of the > second conic section which is located at the top point of the T cutout. It > appears that making a circular cutout at the center point would greatly > reduce distortion and the amount of effort needed to pull the plates into > alignment. A small disk of material, possibly pounded in a somewhat > hemispherical shape could then be used to plug the round hole smoothly. > > I hope to make a 3D model and unfold it over the next few days. If I am > success I will post some pictures of the result. > > Gary H. Lucas From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 2:02 am
Subject: swain hull model

Dear Group,

I have attached a GIF of the example model that Brent has mentioned that you can cut out to illustrate the process of building one of these hulls.

I have it in JPEG format too, and will post this to the group files later on.

I have tried to format both to print out to about 8 by 10 inches, suitable for printing. Let me know how it works out -- my printer is broken.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

Attachment swainmodgif1.gif
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 11k Download

Replies Author Date 199 Re: swain hull model Michael Casling Fri 6/8/2001 202 Re: swain hull model Alex & Kim Christie Fri 6/8/2001
From: "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...>
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 6:21 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] swain hull model

I think I have just successfully built my first boat. But I need a deck.

Michael Casling. Tanzer 8.5m owner. This is my first posting to the group.

caslingm@silk.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex & Kim Christie <ravencoast@telus.net>
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thursday, June 07, 2001 6:06 PM
Subject: [origamiboats] swain hull model

Dear Group,

I have attached a GIF of the example model that Brent has mentioned that you can cut out to illustrate the process of building one of these hulls.

I have it in JPEG format too, and will post this to the group files later on.

I have tried to format both to print out to about 8 by 10 inches, suitable for printing. Let me know how it works out -- my printer is broken.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 11:46 am
Subject: Modified Swain drawing

I scanned the drawing Alex sent and added lines showing how I perceive the conic sections that show how the metal bends. Hope I got this right. Sorry the file is so much bigger, are there different GIF formats? Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 203 Re: Modified Swain drawing Alex & Kim Christie Fri 6/8/2001
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 12:44 pm
Subject: No attachment

I see attachments don't work. Alex, do files get sent to you for posting? Gary H. Lucas From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] swain hull model

>I think I have just successfully built my first boat. But I need a deck. >Michael Casling. Tanzer 8.5m owner. This is my first posting to the group. >caslingm@s... Michael:Congratulations on building your first boat, and welcome to the group! Alex Christie (moderator) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Jun 8, 2001 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Modified Swain drawing

Maybe Yahoo puts a limit on the size of file that can be scanned. Try saving as a JPEG instead. Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Modified Swain drawing > I scanned the drawing Alex sent and added lines showing how I perceive the > conic sections that show how the metal bends. Hope I got this right. Sorry > the file is so much bigger, are there different GIF formats? > > Gary H. Lucas > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 1:32 am
Subject: Modified Swain Drawing

Here is a modified version of the drawing showing conic section bend lines
Attachment Modifyedswain.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 65k Download

Replies Author Date 205 Re: Modified Swain Drawing Alex & Kim Christie Sat 6/9/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sat Jun 9, 2001 6:51 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Modified Swain Drawing

Thanks Gary, I'll add it to the files for those who are interested. I hadn't thought much about the geometry of how the sheet material behaves, but the lot of you really hashed it over very nicely. Good work! Knowledge of this sort, especially when tied in with a good CAD program, should make it much easier to adapt the technique to a wide range of hulls. Brent has already worked out a dinghy, but it would be further interesting to work out something for a utility skiff. Playing around with cardboard works too, of course...call it the poor-man's computer. I like how it never crashes, unlike my windows-based computer... Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Modified Swain Drawing > Here is a modified version of the drawing showing conic section bend lines > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 2:32 am
Subject: Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles

of a > steel mast would be the same as an aluminum mast of equal weight, > BUT, if the two masts were of equal weight then either the aluminum > weight mast will be way stronger than would be required for the loads > involved or the steel mast would be very undersized for the loads. > > In other words, A60 steel is three times heavier for a given cross > section than Aluminum, but only 1.5 times stronger than aluminum. (Of > course the equation gets worse if A36 steel (common cold rolled > structural steel) is used.) Beyond that, given the long panel lengths > and the typical combination of bending and axial loads found in a > typcial rig, the sectional properties will often govern such that in > reality a steel mast may end up being over twice as heavy as an equal > strength aluminum mast. A stayed mast is a slender column and controlled by Euler buckling, not yield. Young's modulus and section properties control Euler buckling and the ratio of Young's modulus to weight for steel is a bit higher than aluminum. In theory then a stayed steel mast would be few percent lighter than an aluminum one for the same external size. Your point about section properties is valid though, because the thinnest steel tubulars of mast size are on the order of 18 - 16 GA (standard chain link fence posts are usually 17 GA) and these thicknesses are on the lower edge of weldability and very vulnerable to corrosion and local buckling induced by impacts. This corresponds to 0.150 or thicker aluminum, which is usually associated with a pretty big mast section. Thus a steel mast may be appropriate only for some large craft. It is a simple analysis to make though, and it is worth checking. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 2:43 am
Subject: Line heating

Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double curved plates. This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the steel into various curves, including compound shapes. It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and more accurate. Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with double backset along the chine of an origami boat?

Replies Author Date 208 Re: Line heating John Callahan Mon 6/11/2001 215 Re: Line heating cdbarry@h... Wed 6/13/2001 209 Re: Line heating Gary H. Lucas Mon 6/11/2001 220 Re: Line heating brentswain38@h... Sat 6/16/2001
From: "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...>
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: Line heating

--- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double > curved plates. This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the steel > into various curves, including compound shapes. > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and > more accurate. > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? With appoligies. I don't understand your question. Are you talking about a doubler plate for strength or inserting a curved plate to eliminate the hard chine? John

Replies Author Date 215 Re: Line heating cdbarry@h... Wed 6/13/2001
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:43 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Line heating

CD, The problem I see is that there is quite a bit of residual stress at the chine because the plates are only bent to shape without overbending to take a permanent set. I think making a cut would cause the hull to spring out of shape unless really well restrained somehow. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdbarry@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Line heating > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double > curved plates. This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the steel > into various curves, including compound shapes. > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and > more accurate. > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 220 Re: Line heating brentswain38@h... Sat 6/16/2001
From: "Phillip Allen" <phillipdallen@h...>
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 12:08 am
Subject: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general)

>From: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> >To: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@h...> >Subject: Masts & (spars in general) >Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) > >This is my first post here and is a >question/questions. > In reading the posts concerning masts I have >wondered if we're talking about a sailing boat or a >space shuttle. Considering that it would be easy to >taper a steel mast by telescoping and then welding >smaller sections to the larger base, weight aloft (how >much weight are we talking about, anyway?) might be >minimized. As a (hopefully) future along distance >cruiser, maintenance skills within my own grasp are >attractive. Yes, aluminum may be welded...but, maybe >not by just anyone. The other thing I must consider >is that, likely, I won't be able to "choose" the >material used. It will take all my resources to >purchase the boat and will cause me to look for >"bargains"...what about wood spars? How does wood >compare with steel and aluminum for weight and >strength? How much additional hardware would be >required for wood? > > > >===== >Pillip D. Allen >phillipdallen@y... >http://ozarkmasonry.homestead.com > >Meeting your masonry consulting needs, world-wide! > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Replies Author Date 213 Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general) willyacht@y... Tue 6/12/2001 216 Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general) cdbarry@h... Wed 6/13/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 5:06 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] rounded chine

> The problem I see is that there is quite a bit of residual stress at the > chine because the plates are only bent to shape without overbending to take > a permanent set. Just a thought, but I am thinking here that the residual stresses might also be inherently good for creating a stress-skin which adds to overall stiffness of the hull. Another question to ponder: would there be much of a hydrodynamic difference between a hull such as this with its very short hard chine, vs a hull like this with a rounded corner in the same area? It may be that the work involved to create a rounded chine (which is underwater, mostly), might not be worth the effort if it doesn't yield a big difference in performance. Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 212 Re: rounded chine pvanderw@o... Tue 6/12/2001 214 Re: rounded chine cdbarry@h... Wed 6/13/2001
From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:40 pm
Subject: Re: rounded chine

Does anyone know what Ted Brewer does for his 'radius bilge' designs. I was under the impression that he used a section of pipe, but I don't actually know. At any rate, I think that worrying about the chine radius is not 'origamiboat' type thinking, i.e. if you are going to insist on a fancier boat, why start with origami construction. IMHO, without anything to support it, I doubt that replacing the chine angle with a radius will matter unless the radius is quite large, say 6" or more. Peter

Replies Author Date 214 Re: rounded chine cdbarry@h... Wed 6/13/2001
From: willyacht@y...
Date: Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:15 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general)

You have some valid points. If you really wanted to get advanced, you could select a spring steel or any steel with a high carbon content about .5% or greater, taper the mast then get the whole thing heat treated. This would give you enormous strength probably with same ability to bend and recover as aluminium. Because you using high strength carbon steel you could also use a thinner gauge. Minor weakning from welding could be planned carefully and it would not be hard to retemper with a oxy torch after working or joining the sections together. There are companies now who can heat treat extreme lengths. Not worrying about loosing your mast and shelving out 10 grand brings piece of mind! Will --- In origamiboats@y..., "Phillip Allen" <phillipdallen@h...> wrote: > > > > >From: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> > >To: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@h...> > >Subject: Masts & (spars in general) > >Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) > > > >This is my first post here and is a > >question/questions. > > In reading the posts concerning masts I have > >wondered if we're talking about a sailing boat or a > >space shuttle. Considering that it would be easy to > >taper a steel mast by telescoping and then welding > >smaller sections to the larger base, weight aloft (how > >much weight are we talking about, anyway?) might be > >minimized. As a (hopefully) future along distance > >cruiser, maintenance skills within my own grasp are > >attractive. Yes, aluminum may be welded...but, maybe > >not by just anyone. The other thing I must consider > >is that, likely, I won't be able to "choose" the > >material used. It will take all my resources to > >purchase the boat and will cause me to look for > >"bargains"...what about wood spars? How does wood > >compare with steel and aluminum for weight and > >strength? How much additional hardware would be > >required for wood? > > > > > > > >===== > >Pillip D. Allen > >phillipdallen@y... > >http://ozarkmasonry.homestead.com > > > >Meeting your masonry consulting needs, world-wide! > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Replies Author Date 216 Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general) cdbarry@h... Wed 6/13/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 3:27 am
Subject: Re: rounded chine

--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > > Does anyone know what Ted Brewer does for his 'radius bilge' designs. > I was under the impression that he used a section of pipe, but I > don't actually know. At any rate, I think that worrying about the > chine radius is not 'origamiboat' type thinking, i.e. if you are > going to insist on a fancier boat, why start with origami > construction. > > IMHO, without anything to support it, I doubt that replacing the > chine angle with a radius will matter unless the radius is quite > large, say 6" or more. > > Peter I understand most radius chine hulls are rolled plates. A typical line heated plate would have 6-12" of transverse backset in thirty inches of span, which, if it was a radius, would be fairly large - a couple of feet or more. Line heating a single plate is about a shift or so, including the sight templates, so we are only talking about 16 manhours or so of extra labor to eliminate the chine altogether. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 3:28 am
Subject: Re: Line heating

--- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > > > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double > > curved plates. This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting > > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the > steel > > into various curves, including compound shapes. > > > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and > > more accurate. > > > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with > > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? > > > With appoligies. I don't understand your question. Are you talking > about a doubler plate for strength or inserting a curved plate to > eliminate the hard chine? > > > John An insert. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 3:31 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general)

--- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote: > You have some valid points. If you really wanted to get advanced, you > could select a spring steel or any steel with a high carbon content > about .5% or greater, taper the mast then get the whole thing heat > treated. If you need higher yields, there are plenty of readily weldable HSLA steels. However, these steels (and QT steels) only have higher yields and yield doesn't effect stayed mast strength. From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 1:56 pm
Subject: Update on devolpable surfaces

I've been playing with creating 3D models of an Origami hull in Rhino. I have made a little progress. I can create a hull of sorts and it unfolds to a flat pattern with little problem. The command that creates a conical section which can be unrolled in Rhino is call RAIL REVOLVE with ScaleHeight Option on. You need to supply an arbitrary axis ( I used a vertical axis ) in order for the command to work. It appears there are some fairly large limitations on the hull shapes that can be generated. The bow must have a fairly long overhang, otherwise you get a crease line running from the end of the chine to the bow. I am not a boat designer and I have little idea of real boat shapes. What I have done so far is draw a top view of the sheerline that kind of looks good, picked a chine location in a similar fashion and then an arbitrary location for the end of the chine where the bow conic section would start. Unlike working with a flat pattern that you must fold up to see what it will look like I can go through quite a few variations to what changes in a fairly quick way. I will post some images once I get a better handle on this. Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 218 Re: Update on devolpable surfaces pvanderw@o... Wed 6/13/2001 222 Re: Update on devolpable surfaces cdbarry@h... Sun 6/17/2001
From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Wed Jun 13, 2001 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: Update on devolpable surfaces

If I correctly interpret what you want, then a typical axis would be strongly raked aft (more than 45 degrees). It would originate at a point just about under the bowsprit, and a foot or so on the 'other' side of the boats centerline. --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > You need to supply an arbitrary axis ( I used a vertical axis ) > in order for the command to work. From: kupris1948@a...
Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:25 pm
Subject: deck prisms

Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive, and I need 2 to 4 of them. John

Replies Author Date 221 Re: deck prisms Alex & Kim Christie Sat 6/16/2001 223 Re: deck prisms cdbarry@h... Sun 6/17/2001 226 Re: deck prisms brentswain38@h... Mon 6/18/2001 227 Re: deck prisms Alex & Kim Christie Mon 6/18/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 3:50 am
Subject: Re: Line heating

When Gunter Richtler cut the chine out to radius it on the first one of my boats he did, he did the cut with no support, and the hull sagged considerably. Good support is neccesary. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > CD, > The problem I see is that there is quite a bit of residual stress at the > chine because the plates are only bent to shape without overbending to take > a permanent set. I think making a cut would cause the hull to spring out of > shape unless really well restrained somehow. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <cdbarry@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:43 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Line heating > > > > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > > > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double > > curved plates. This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting > > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the steel > > into various curves, including compound shapes. > > > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and > > more accurate. > > > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with > > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sat Jun 16, 2001 4:00 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] deck prisms

Could they perhaps be made of solid block of Acrylic? What is it that makes a prism do its thing? If we can crack the code on it, we should be able to replicate it. ----- Original Message ----- From: <kupris1948@a...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] deck prisms > Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive, and > I need 2 to 4 of them. John

Replies Author Date 223 Re: deck prisms cdbarry@h... Sun 6/17/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 2:04 am
Subject: Re: Update on devolpable surfaces

If you can find a copy of Ullman Kilgore's article on developable surfaces from the FAO fishing vessels series this will help find the true rulings you need. You can also download a series of points on both chines and search for zero warp using the definition of co- planarity. This would not be too hard with a spreadsheet. I promised to upload a copy of an article on developables on the SBYD site, (www.sbyd.com) but haven't got around to it yet. It was an article in Boatbuilder magazine a while back. If you are interested, a professional level suite for doing this type of thing (and much more) is Ship Constructor from www.albacoreresearch.com. I think you can download a demo. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Sun Jun 17, 2001 2:06 am
Subject: Re: deck prisms

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Could they perhaps be made of solid block of Acrylic? What is it that makes > a prism do its thing? If we can crack the code on it, we should be able to > replicate it. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <kupris1948@a...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:25 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] deck prisms > > > > Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive, and > > I need 2 to 4 of them. John It's just a matter of simple optics. Any optical physics book will have the needful information. The angles have to be corrected for the different material index of refraction. From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:51 am
Subject: Got It! part 2

It's been raining like mad so I took some time to play. The attached JPGs show two renderings of an attempt at producing a 3D origami hull. The third JPG shows the unrolled pattern. I cut it out and taped it together, it looks like a boat. Lots of playing here. This is supposed to be a 30' long by 9' wide hull. Notice the reverse transom, and the little extra piece at the chine. I tried to see if you could make it multi-chine, to soften the sharp edge. On the paper model this is quite effective at making the hull look rounder. The stern is kind of excessively V shaped to my eye. I haven't yet figured out the defining curves to make it rounder, without a reverse kink in the transom. Gary H. Lucas
Attachment Hull Unrolled.JPG
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 96k Download

Attachment Hull 2.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 58k Download

Attachment Hull 1.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 45k Download

Replies Author Date 225 Re: Got It! part 2 Alex & Kim Christie Mon 6/18/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 5:53 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Got It! part 2

Keep up the good work, Gary! Definitely reveals the inner workings of the geometry at work with this system. I'll put your hull models into the group files for future members to see. Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Got It! part 2 > It's been raining like mad so I took some time to play. The attached JPGs > show two renderings of an attempt at producing a 3D origami hull. The third > JPG shows the unrolled pattern. I cut it out and taped it together, it > looks like a boat. Lots of playing here. This is supposed to be a 30' long From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:21 pm
Subject: Re: deck prisms

There is only so much light which can get through a deck prism, the amount of light striking the surface. All the prism does is spread the light around a lot . Any piece of acrylic or other transparent material ground to the same shape will do the same thing.The shinnyness of the inside surface shouldn't make much difference. Deck prisms are a notorious source of deck leaks. If you make your own with a stainless base welded in ,it shouldn't be hard to do a better job of engineering it to be easier to work on and get a good seal than the commercially made ones . Personally, I'd be more inclined to put plexiglass panels in the cabintop where they would take less water over them than on the deck.It's easier to learn to live with less light than to learn to live with deck leaks. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., kupris1948@a... wrote: > Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive, and > I need 2 to 4 of them. John From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:35 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: deck prisms

Would a panel of plexi in the cabin top, combined with a triangular (in section) piece glued to the under side do the job of spreading the light? Or would a piece of plexi alone do the trick, then paint the inside of the cabin a light colour to diffuse the light? Or maybe a nice little disco ball from Radio Shack hung just below the plexiglass? ;) Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: deck prisms > There is only so much light which can get through a deck prism, the > amount of light striking the surface. All the prism does is spread > the light around a lot . Any piece of acrylic or other transparent > material ground to the same shape will do the same thing.The > shinnyness of the inside surface shouldn't make much difference. > Deck prisms are a notorious source of deck leaks. If you make your > own with a stainless base welded in ,it shouldn't be hard to do a > better job of engineering it to be easier to work on and get a good > seal than the commercially made ones . > Personally, I'd be more inclined to put plexiglass panels in the > cabintop where they would take less water over them than on the > deck.It's easier to learn to live with less light than to learn to > live with deck leaks. > Brent Swain From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:49 pm
Subject: Thoughts on painting

I am currently working on repainting a 1979 Catalina 22 that needed a lot of glass work. As I wet sanded the hull between coats of paint for the umpteenth time my thoughts were on what it would be like to have a metal boat. Specifically the difference between a steel boat and an aluminum one. I hear everyone say what a wonderful easy material steel is for building a boat, especially with today's modern paints, then I think about how much I hate painting! It's been said that steel boats rust out from the inside, so that means you also need to do as good a job painting inside as you do outside. The finish isn't important but thorough coverage is, and there are LOTS of nooks and crannies to deal with, as well as painting in dark corners and over your head. Then there is the prep work, grinding and sandblasting both inside and out. In a few years the outside needs to be painted again, and I would guess after 10 to 20 years the inside will need work too, only now it is covered up by everything you put inside the boat. Finally while a steel boat is cheaper to build, older steel boats seem to sell for very little money. A boat can be built from aluminum that is equally as strong as a steel boat, by making every thing thicker, yet it will still be 50% or more lighter. When you are building it all the pieces are much easier to handle because they are so much lighter. Welding aluminum out of position ( vertical or overhead ) is easier than welding steel. When you are done welding and grinding, you are done with the finish, inside and out, except for bottom paint. Electrolysis can be a problem but there appear to be lots of ways to deal with that problem. It appears that when you finally decide to sell the boat aluminum boats bring a premium price, even more than an equivalent fiberglass boat, so building the boat may have been quite a good investment if done well. Okay so aluminum DOES cost considerably more than steel for the raw materials but with all the above in mind why would you want to spend lots of hours and have a reduced return on your investment to own a steel boat, rather than an aluminum one? I work with aluminum every day, it is easily my favorite material to work with. So what am I missing here? Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 229 Gary, a link to a couple articles... winslow59@y... Tue 6/19/2001 230 New to List- what about trawlers? Doug Barnard Tue 6/19/2001 232 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001 234 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 236 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001 237 Plasma cutting Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 241 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 243 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 233 Re: Thoughts on painting cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001
From: winslow59@y...
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 2:49 am
Subject: Gary, a link to a couple articles...

Michael Kasten wrote some articles about aluminum, steel, and boat building -- they're worth reading. Look for them on his website. http://www.kastenmarine.com http://www.kastenmarine.com/articles.htm -Markus From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 10:57 pm
Subject: New to List- what about trawlers?

I've been reading the discussions on this List, and find it fascinating. My wife and I are planning on building a 48' steel trawler that was designed by Charles Wittholz. The framing is the traditional method, with longitudinal stringers on 5" X 1/4" transverse frames about every 2'. Can these methods be adapted for a full-displacement boat of this size? The 300 hour time period to assemble a boat that Brent Swain mentioned really blew my mind! I'm mailing off a check today for $23 US for Brent's book. Even if origami techniques can't be used on the hull, I'm very interested in finding ways to fabricate whatever I can. Brent mentioned in one of his posts, "I usually buy the plate wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold galvanizing primer ( 80 % pus zinc ) Straight from the steel supliers." I've called at least 15 steel yards in the Los Angeles area, and *all* of them have never heard of blasted and pre-primed steel, and haven't a clue as to where I could find it. Any suggestions? Thanks! ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328

Replies Author Date 232 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001 234 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 236 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001 237 Plasma cutting Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 241 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 243 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: "burr.halpern" <burr.halpern@a...>
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 2:08 am
Subject: Wittholz designs

I used to work for the late Charlie Wittholz. Charlie was very careful in engineering his designs. I would be very hesitant to delete any structure from his designs without having a marine engineer check what you are proposing first. Charlie was neat guy and a very good yacht designer. Good luck, Jeff

Replies Author Date 235 Re: Wittholz designs Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 3:06 am
Subject: Re: New to List- what about trawlers?

I've called at least 15 steel yards in the Los > Angeles area, and *all* of them have never heard of blasted and pre- primed > steel, and haven't a clue as to where I could find it. Any suggestions? Farwest Steel, Eugene OR - They have an 800 number. You will also have to talk to them about your welding techniques to choose an appropriate primer. They will also CNC off of DXF burnsheets. This is another technique for quick construction. Note though the wisdom of many small shipyards "we always make money on steel, but outfit eats our lunch". Find out about modern outfit techniques for shipbuilding as well so you don't have to spend four years fitting out a hull you built in two months.

Replies Author Date 234 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 236 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001 237 Plasma cutting Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 241 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 243 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 3:22 am
Subject: Re: Thoughts on painting

I've designed dozens of aluminum boats both as a consultant and in shipyards. Aluminum is a good material, though the actual weight savings is closer to 20-30% not 50%. Note that the Kasten articles use an incorrect value for aluminum yield. If you need to develop scantlings for an aluminum boat, and do not wish to hire a naval architect or a yacht designer, take a look at NVIC 11-80 at www.uscg.mil under marine safety and environmental protection. This is a widely used scantling rule that can be downloaded free, though it is for crewboats. The ABS "Rules ... Offshore Racing Yachts" cover sailing yachts, but you will have to buy it at www.eagle.org. (ISO is developing rules for aluminum recreational boats, but they are not yet available to the general public.) The drawback to aluminum are that it has lower strain energy to rupture (less tough), that you have problems with piping and fittings, that you have to be careful of electrical systems, that anti-fouling paint is a problem, that it has to be GMAW welded, that it can't be line heated and that it is more expensive than steel (though this may not be true overall for any given project - run the numbers). SOme of it's other advantages over steel are somewhat overstated as well, such as the ease of welding - GMAW on aluminum is faster than SMAW on steel, but GMAW on steel is as fast, except as you note, overhead. (And push only rigs are cheaper than push-pull or spool on gun rigs that are advised for aluminum.) All that said though, aluminum is a very good material for boats. You have to look at the overall costs of the project and you situation and run the numbers.

Replies Author Date 239 Re: Thoughts on painting brentswain38@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 4:41 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: New to List- what about trawlers?

Thanks for the reply! > Farwest Steel, Eugene OR - They have an 800 number. You will also > have to talk to them about your welding techniques to choose an > appropriate primer. That sounds great! I hope that shipping doesn't kill me on this... > They will also CNC off of DXF burnsheets. This is another technique > for quick construction. I've found that to be extremely expensive, and shipping on that could also be problematic. I plan on building everything that I can, so I find it hard to justify paying through the nose to save some plasma cutting. I'm a man of limited means and I guess that I'm not that much in a hurry! > Note though the wisdom of many small shipyards "we always make money > on steel, but outfit eats our lunch". > > Find out about modern outfit techniques for shipbuilding as well so > you don't have to spend four years fitting out a hull you built in > two months. Any sources of info? It seems like in Roberts' "Steel Boats" and Smith/Moir's "Steel Away", the concentration is mainly on hull and deck structure. There doesn't seem to be much on putting the rest together. I'm looking forward to Brent Swain's book to fill in the gaps. This sounds like a interesting area that could use some real discussion, I'm all ears! ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 236 Re: New to List- what about trawlers? cdbarry@h... Wed 6/20/2001 237 Plasma cutting Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 241 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 243 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 4:41 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Wittholz designs

> I used to work for the late Charlie Wittholz. Charlie was very careful > in engineering his designs. I would be very hesitant to delete any > structure from his designs without having a marine engineer check what > you are proposing first. Charlie was neat guy and a very good yacht > designer. Wow, that must've been great working for Charlie! I've spoken with his widow, and she's supposed to be sending me out a catalog of his motor designs. You bring up an excellent point, and echo my deepest fear about the folded steel method. How do we validate designs? Most good traditional steel yachts are probably very similar below decks, and have similar specs. I'm not in the position to pay a folded steel designer to design me up a 48' trawler from scratch. So where do we go? Does anyone know of a good marine engineer that is hip to the folded steel thing that could help me out? I've asked Brent Swain if he could be hired to adapt me plans, but haven't received a reply. ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: New to List- what about trawlers?

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > I've found that to be extremely expensive, and shipping on that could also > be problematic. I plan on building everything that I can, so I find it hard > to justify paying through the nose to save some plasma cutting. ? Last time I asked, most places included plasma cutting in the metal price or real near. What high cost are you talking about? > > Any sources of info? It seems like in Roberts' "Steel Boats" and > Smith/Moir's "Steel Away", the concentration is mainly on hull and deck > structure. There doesn't seem to be much on putting the rest together. I'm > looking forward to Brent Swain's book to fill in the gaps. > > This sounds like a interesting area that could use some real discussion, I'm > all ears! You will have to look at some professional level shipbuilding stuff - try to get "Ship Production" via interlibrary loan, or go to the UCLA engineering library (you can get a UC library card with your CA driver's license) and look up "Journal of Ship Production". It's heavy going, but scanning through back issues will give you an idea. Calkins did a good paper on small ship advanced outfit a few years back.

Replies Author Date 237 Plasma cutting Doug Barnard Wed 6/20/2001 241 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 243 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:51 pm
Subject: Plasma cutting

> From: cdbarry@h... [mailto:cdbarry@h...] > ? Last time I asked, most places included plasma cutting in the metal > price or real near. What high cost are you talking about? !!!! I've been quoted thousands of $$$. Like 30 cents an inch. These are third party guys, with a small shop. Designers like Buehler and Roberts charge thousands of $$$ just for the cutting files. If "most places" that you know of will do this, that's great! "Most places" that I call just want to sell me a sheet of plate and get the hell out. They are uniformly ignorant of anything else that I might want done with it. Guess that I've been looking for love in all the wrong places! You mentioned Far West in Eugene, OR. Got any others? So the way to go is to develop the hull, loft all the parts in the computer, arrange them on the equivalent sheet size, write a dxf, and email to one these "most places"? Wow! Wouldn't life be grand then! ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 241 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 243 Re: Plasma cutting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Wed Jun 20, 2001 10:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Thoughts on painting

Thanks CD, I am quite familiar with aluminum welding, and so much of what I see is BAD! The problem is that a lot of people try to use short arc welding on aluminum, and if you want any strength you have to use spray arc. Spray arc is much faster, cleaner and nicer looking than short arc anyway. I have a Miller spool gun running off a gas powered CC welder at work. When I went to buy it none of the dealers even wanted to quote on it for use with a CC machine. Changed one jumper and works just fine, a little different but we still get good welds. Push welding aluminum is a joke, nothing but trouble. If you are going to weld aluminum get a spool gun and be done with it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdbarry@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Thoughts on painting > I've designed dozens of aluminum boats both as a consultant and in > shipyards. Aluminum is a good material, though the actual weight > savings is closer to 20-30% not 50%. > > Note that the Kasten articles use an incorrect value for aluminum > yield. If you need to develop scantlings for an aluminum boat, and > do not wish to hire a naval architect or a yacht designer, take a > look at NVIC 11-80 at www.uscg.mil under marine safety and > environmental protection. This is a widely used scantling rule that > can be downloaded free, though it is for crewboats. The > ABS "Rules ... Offshore Racing Yachts" cover sailing yachts, but you > will have to buy it at www.eagle.org. (ISO is developing rules for > aluminum recreational boats, but they are not yet available to the > general public.) > > The drawback to aluminum are that it has lower strain energy to > rupture (less tough), that you have problems with piping and > fittings, that you have to be careful of electrical systems, that > anti-fouling paint is a problem, that it has to be GMAW welded, that > it can't be line heated and that it is more expensive than steel > (though this may not be true overall for any given project - run the > numbers). SOme of it's other advantages over steel are somewhat > overstated as well, such as the ease of welding - GMAW on aluminum is > faster than SMAW on steel, but GMAW on steel is as fast, except as > you note, overhead. (And push only rigs are cheaper than push-pull > or spool on gun rigs that are advised for aluminum.) > > All that said though, aluminum is a very good material for boats. > You have to look at the overall costs of the project and you > situation and run the numbers. > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Click for Details > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 242 Re: Thoughts on painting cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:37 am
Subject: Re: Thoughts on painting

The steel laying on the ground for my 36 footer costs roughly $6,000 . The aluminium costs $20,000 . A friend with a lot of cruising experience (circumnavigation, etc.) and a master scrounger , doing his own work , had one of my 36 footers sailing for $14,000 and was on his way to Hawaii for $17,000, still less than the cost of the aluminium alone for the same boat . The boat was extremely well built.This is before you include welding equipment , gas , wire, etc. You can build a trawler, or any other hard chine boat using the origami method, then put in afterwards , any additional structural you feel comfortable with, saving a tremendous amount of time and money over the traditional "imitation wooden boatbuilding"methods . The worst you could do is end up with a little extra weight and work. I design only sailing vessels, and don't have any experience or interest in powerboats, altho I'd be happy to do whatever I can to help make the job easier . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > I've designed dozens of aluminum boats both as a consultant and in > shipyards. Aluminum is a good material, though the actual weight > savings is closer to 20-30% not 50%. > > Note that the Kasten articles use an incorrect value for aluminum > yield. If you need to develop scantlings for an aluminum boat, and > do not wish to hire a naval architect or a yacht designer, take a > look at NVIC 11-80 at www.uscg.mil under marine safety and > environmental protection. This is a widely used scantling rule that > can be downloaded free, though it is for crewboats. The > ABS "Rules ... Offshore Racing Yachts" cover sailing yachts, but you > will have to buy it at www.eagle.org. (ISO is developing rules for > aluminum recreational boats, but they are not yet available to the > general public.) > > The drawback to aluminum are that it has lower strain energy to > rupture (less tough), that you have problems with piping and > fittings, that you have to be careful of electrical systems, that > anti-fouling paint is a problem, that it has to be GMAW welded, that > it can't be line heated and that it is more expensive than steel > (though this may not be true overall for any given project - run the > numbers). SOme of it's other advantages over steel are somewhat > overstated as well, such as the ease of welding - GMAW on aluminum is > faster than SMAW on steel, but GMAW on steel is as fast, except as > you note, overhead. (And push only rigs are cheaper than push-pull > or spool on gun rigs that are advised for aluminum.) > > All that said though, aluminum is a very good material for boats. > You have to look at the overall costs of the project and you > situation and run the numbers. From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:57 am
Subject: Re: Thoughts on painting

If the inside of a steel boat is properly painted with at least 3 coats or more of epoxy tar it should never need painting. My last boat was built in 1976 and is still going strong . The original inside paint is still there. One of my 36 footers , built in 1984 was recently surveyed with ultrasound and the hull was very close to it's original thickness despite a 7 year circumnavigation. Several of my boats were sold more than ten years after they were built for several times what their owners had in them ,some sold several times for the same price. From what I've seen ,steel boats hold their value as well as any other boatbuilding material if they are properly built, maintained and painted in the first place. Only those which have been unpainted inside, or badly neglected , lose a great deal of value.This is true , of course ,only in places where people understand the value of a steel boat. It may not be true in places of extreme consumer programming where people have been brainwashed by the peddlars of trendy plastic , to the point where the glossy ads do their thinking for them. --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > I am currently working on repainting a 1979 Catalina 22 that needed a lot of > glass work. As I wet sanded the hull between coats of paint for the > umpteenth time my thoughts were on what it would be like to have a metal > boat. Specifically the difference between a steel boat and an aluminum > one. I hear everyone say what a wonderful easy material steel is for > building a boat, especially with today's modern paints, then I think about > how much I hate painting! It's been said that steel boats rust out from the > inside, so that means you also need to do as good a job painting inside as > you do outside. The finish isn't important but thorough coverage is, and > there are LOTS of nooks and crannies to deal with, as well as painting in > dark corners and over your head. Then there is the prep work, grinding and > sandblasting both inside and out. In a few years the outside needs to be > painted again, and I would guess after 10 to 20 years the inside will need > work too, only now it is covered up by everything you put inside the boat. > Finally while a steel boat is cheaper to build, older steel boats seem to > sell for very little money. > > A boat can be built from aluminum that is equally as strong as a steel boat, > by making every thing thicker, yet it will still be 50% or more lighter. > When you are building it all the pieces are much easier to handle because > they are so much lighter. Welding aluminum out of position ( vertical or > overhead ) is easier than welding steel. When you are done welding and > grinding, you are done with the finish, inside and out, except for bottom > paint. Electrolysis can be a problem but there appear to be lots of ways to > deal with that problem. It appears that when you finally decide to sell the > boat aluminum boats bring a premium price, even more than an equivalent > fiberglass boat, so building the boat may have been quite a good investment > if done well. > > Okay so aluminum DOES cost considerably more than steel for the raw > materials but with all the above in mind why would you want to spend lots of > hours and have a reduced return on your investment to own a steel boat, > rather than an aluminum one? I work with aluminum every day, it is easily > my favorite material to work with. So what am I missing here? > > Gary H. Lucas From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 3:01 am
Subject: Re: Plasma cutting

Plasma Northwest in Seattle, (Don Regan, as I recall), and Everett Steel, Everett WA are two more. I like working with FarWest though, and they cut for half the boat builders who don't cut their own all the way from Bellingham to Crescent City. Ask for Elaine Brotherton. Shipping really isn't that big a deal anyway. However, you can probably find plenty of others closer in TomCat. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 3:06 am
Subject: Re: Thoughts on painting

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: That's my point, you can't use low end steel rigs for aluminum (though I've been told that a push rig with an oversized Teflon liner works sort of). I prefer a push-pull like a Cobramatic. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 3:21 am
Subject: Re: Plasma cutting

We would log into their computer over the phone and upload our files at the end of the day. The next afternoon (or maybe the day after) we would get a truckload of plate. A lot of yacht designers doing CNC don't have the best (most productive) software, etc. or aren't even doing their own work, so it's very expensive. In the latter case, the whole boat has to be redrawn from scratch, so it's really costly. The trick is to find someone who: 1) Really knows metal boatbuilding. 2) Does both the design and the CNC in house in one continuous process. 3) Uses one of the major shipyard software packages like ShipConstructor, AutoShip Builder, FORAN, TRIBON, etc. not just a hull fairing package and bare bones CAD. (If you go to www.albacoreresearch.com you will see what I mean by productive packages.) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 am
Subject: Re: Thoughts on painting

Thanks, Gary, for your thoughts on painting steel: > > there are LOTS of nooks and crannies to deal with, as well as > painting in > > dark corners and over your head. Then there is the prep work, > grinding and > > sandblasting both inside and out. I think the main thing with Brent's frameless boats is that there are vastly less nooks and crannies to deal with when compared to framed boats with their myriad transverse frames. The inside photos shown in the "Austin Hull" photo file show a very clean and bare interior, with the green primer already in place, needing no expensive and messy sandblasting - just clean up and prime the few welds (remember, there are less welds in an origami boat). Framed boats would offer a very different picture. I admit it is very attractive to not have to do any painting inside an aluminum boat. But I too have seen the insides of some very mature steel boats (again, properly built, properly maintained), and have been very impressed by their condition. With wheel-abraded pre-primed plate, there is no need to do expensive sandblasting inside and out. That primer is stuck some good! The issue of sandblasting is often cited when comparing cost-wise to aluminum. With pre-primed plate, however, that cost can now be factored "out' of the equation, likely bringing steel out ahead in cost. It is commonly available in Canada, but I don't know about elsewhere. (Americans, just come up to Canada to build your boats, I'll lend you my back yard!) Aluminum, however, is a really neat material, and I am going to be using it for my outboard skiff without hesitation. For bigger boats, it can be wonderful too, though the welding needs good quality control for proper strength. Vulnerable stress points have to be religiously avoided to prevent fatigue damage (not that you can ignore this with steel, but to a lesser degree). This is critical for the high-speed aluminum powerboats built out here on the coast. Done right, aluminum is perfect for such craft, which get the tar pounded out of them on a daily basis. Certainly if the powerboats can be properly designed/engineered/constructed for severe service, then the same can be done for sailboats. But initial and over all cost outlay is a big factor in many people's minds, so steel often comes into play once again. The aluminum vs steel question is going to be ongoing, because both materials have aspects worth considering, and both have drawbacks, all moderated by each given situation. I'd say the best thing to do is draw up a list showing the pros and cons of each material as they apply to your resources, abilities and available work space, then see which wins out. Each person's list will be slightly different, depending on what tools and space they have access to, and how big their initial budget is. The ability to build steel Swain boats in the open is a big plus for a lot of people on this coast, who are building right in their side or back yards in the middle of cities, and would never be allowed by city authorities to build a large shop first, even a temporary one. Alex Christie (moderator) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:36 am
Subject: push-pull?

Sorry, need some education for me and the group on what Push and Pull mean here! Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdbarry@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Thoughts on painting > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > That's my point, you can't use low end steel rigs for aluminum > (though I've been told that a push rig with an oversized Teflon liner > works sort of). I prefer a push-pull like a Cobramatic. >

Replies Author Date 247 Re: push-pull? cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001 248 Re: push-pull? cdbarry@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Tue Jun 19, 2001 6:22 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Thoughts on painting

Gary, go with the material you feel most comfortable with. My steel yacht has been in the water 14 yrs and is still on the original paint. Once each year I go aboard with a 12cfm compressor, a needle gun and a handheld grit blaster and touch up any rust spots. In between times I just cover new chips with 5 minute Araldite, or rusty bits with lanocote grease. Inside, any rust gets the grease treatment. Eventually I needle gun it, wire brush it ( the brush on a small angle grinder) , rinse it liberally with fresh water (most important) and then when dry coat it with fishoil, or sometimes with half fishoil and half silver paint. When thoroughly dry, it gets coated with one of the rubberized tars that they use to waterproof shower enclosures with. This lasts for years. I guess if anything rusts through you can weld in a new piece easily and retain original strength. Rust usually looks worse than it is, and if you design your interior so that you can see most of the inside of the hull through lockers, slatted linings etc. you can keep on top of it. I would be much more scared of electrolysis in an alloy hull, which can be rapid and deadly! Regards, Richard.

Replies Author Date 250 Re: Thoughts on painting Doug Barnard Thu 6/21/2001 251 Re: Thoughts on painting brentswain38@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:59 pm
Subject: Re: push-pull?

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Sorry, need some education for me and the group on what Push and Pull mean > here! > > Alex Christie GMAW (MIG) guns feed wire into the weld instead of using stick electrodes. The wire can be mounted on a spool on the gun or in a separate box connected to the gun by a hose which also carries shielding gas and current (and maybe cooling water). If its separate, the spool can be larger, the gun lighter and smaller. To feed the wire down the hose, you have motorized drive wheels that pinch the wire. You can have the wheels at the box end (push) or the gun end (pull - though this is rare) or both ends. Rigs intended for steel are often push - it's cheaper and results in the lightest possible gun. Aluminum is softer than steel and push rigs tend to jam, or even if they don't they feed at an iregular speed which changes the arc length and hence its characteristics, especially the type of metal transfer through the arc which is very important. There is a lot of other stuff related to selecting GMAW equipment as well, especially the characterististics of the power supply (CC, CV, Pulse, etc.) that can be researched on the web. A very good source for all things welding is www.lincolnelectric.com. The education section has numerous books, training materials, videos, etc. at ridiculously low prices. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 1:05 pm
Subject: Re: push-pull?

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Sorry, need some education for me and the group on what Push and Pull mean > here! > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) Push rig http://www.lincolnelectric.com/products/wprod/powermig255.asp Push-pull rig http://www.lincolnelectric.com/products/wprod/recpk98/300cobr.asp From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 2:09 pm
Subject: For purposes of comparison...

For those of you doing comparison of origami vs. standard construction, and of steel vs. aluminium, there is some interesting info about an aluminium Van de Stat 34 here: http://www.green-witch.50megs.com/ This boat has been under construction for about 2 years and is still mostly an empty hull. There are a lot of the builder's opinions, to which you may feel free to disagree. Mr. Swain's friend could have built his boat and sailed to Australia and back in the same time. There is a 1986 steel version of the boat for sale in Florida for about $30,000. Peter

Replies Author Date 258 Re: For purposes of comparison... Gary H. Lucas Tue 6/26/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 4:54 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Thoughts on painting

> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Payne [mailto:nekeyah@c...] > Rust usually looks worse than it is, and if you design your interior so > that you can see most of the inside of the hull through lockers, slatted > linings etc. you can keep on top of it. So your boat has an un-insulated hull? You don't get major condensation that wrecks the insides of those lockers?

Replies Author Date 251 Re: Thoughts on painting brentswain38@h... Thu 6/21/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 8:50 pm
Subject: Re: Thoughts on painting

An uninsulated hull is only an option in warm climates. People who tried that here in BC found that it often rained hard with condensation inside when it was clear and sunny outside.They produced many gallons of water per day while living aboard in the winter. During cold spells the entire inside of the hull ,with the exception of a three foot circle over the stove , was coated with a half inch layer of ice for weeks on end.Everything which came in contact with the hull became saturated in an hour or two , then froze solid when it got cold. Sheet foam insulation kept the boat warm, but condensation behind the foam was runing like a river despite any attempts to build a vapor barrier. Fibreglass insulation became a soggy mass in a day or two despite any attempts at a vapour barrier. With sprayfoam , the inside of the boat was as warm and dry as any appartment building. The salt from the salt shaker poured easily and stuff in lockers stayed dry.There was only one exception. If there was a piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking through the foam , it wiould drip like a leaky faucet ,with condensation. For this reason, when you have your boat foamed , it's best not to let the foamer leave until you've checked the boat several times for missed spots. It's also not a good idea to trim the foam flush with the beams and stringers. If the hull has been given at least three or more coats of epoxy tar before foaming, it's good for life.If it' hasn't been properly painted, it may last a vey long time, or it may rust out fairly quickly regardless of conditions during the foaming.There seems to be no logic as to which it will do. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Payne [mailto:nekeyah@c...] > > > Rust usually looks worse than it is, and if you design your interior so > > that you can see most of the inside of the hull through lockers, slatted > > linings etc. you can keep on top of it. > > So your boat has an un-insulated hull? You don't get major condensation that > wrecks the insides of those lockers? From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Thu Jun 21, 2001 9:54 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat building texts.

I found Boatbuilding With Steel by the late Gilbert Klingel extremely good. It was my "bible" when I built Nekeyah. Published by International Marine Publishing Company, Camden, Maine. 1973 Hopefully it is still in print in a later edition.
Don't get too excited about cheap hulls - it is the fitting out that costs the big dollars.
Regards,
Richard.

Replies Author Date 253 Re: Boat building texts. brentswain38@h... Sat 6/23/2001 259 Re: Boat building texts. Gary H. Lucas Tue 6/26/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Sat Jun 23, 2001 1:26 am
Subject: Re: Boat building texts.

What percentage of the total the hull represents depends on how good a scrounger you are . The advantage of steel is that stainless cleats and many other fittings can be built from scrap for a tiny fraction of what they cost new. When the metal work is done, you have your hatches , cleats . chainplates, anchors, bowroller, self steering, etc, etc, all stuff you have to buy for other kinds of boats. My 31 footer cost $4,000 to launch and $6,000 to get sailing and living aboard.I did my scrounging well in advance. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > I found Boatbuilding With Steel by the late Gilbert Klingel extremely > good. It was my "bible" when I built Nekeyah. Published by > International Marine Publishing Company, Camden, Maine. 1973 Hopefully > it is still in print in a later edition. > Don't get too excited about cheap hulls - it is the fitting out that > costs the big dollars. > Regards, > Richard. From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Fri Jun 22, 2001 10:03 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Thoughts on painting

When I built Nekeyah I glued that white koolite stuff about 25 mm thick onto the hull and deck inside except around the stove, here I used a more fire retardant version. We are near Sydney Australia so our climate is not that cold (no frosts where I live!! ). I have no transverse frames except for the floors, and have used tubular longitudinals. The only places I have had corrosion inside has been the water traps at the lowest parts of my longitudinals. I now have bits of cloth glued into the low spots and hanging down into the bilge to act as wicks to draw any moisture from these low spots. My advice is to get rid of any water traps and your internal corrosion problems will be minimized, no matter how much condensation you experience. Regards, Richard. From: "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...>
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 9:15 pm
Subject: Hull material ?'s

Boat's I've built in the past were of either carbon steel, ASTM A36, or Corten construction and a skiff or two of Aliminum, 5052, I've been wondering about building using 304 ASTM A240 stainless steel. I think the ideal stainless would be 316L for salt water aplication but the cost would be prohibitive. I think the chloride stress corrosion problem associated w/ 304 can be circumvented with the proper application of paint. My question would then be.. What thickness of 304 stainless steel would equal, say, 3/16" ASTM A36 carbon steel, What physical properties do you look at to make the comparison, Hardness, Tensile strength's, Elasticity, all of the above?. For example, Ultimate tensile strength of 304 is about 1/3 greater than that of A36, Does this mean I could use 1/3 less material thickness? The weight savings, 5.04 lbs/sq ft vice 7.66 lbs/sq ft using the a 3/16" vs 11 GA. as an example. Does this come close to the lbs/sq ft of a fiberglass hull? John

Replies Author Date 256 Re: Hull material ?'s brentswain38@h... Mon 6/25/2001 264 Your book Doug Barnard Thu 6/28/2001 265 Re: Your book Doug Barnard Thu 6/28/2001 269 Re: Your book brentswain38@h... Wed 7/4/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Mon Jun 25, 2001 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: Hull material ?'s

I remember reading a story about a frenchman who has done a lot of cruising ,who built a boat out of stainless and said it was a big mistake. He had lots of electrolysis and welds cracking everywhere. If you have to protect it with paint, then what's the point.Any 304 I've used below the waterline has had major corrosion problems. I've had no problems with 316. As long as you use stainless trim on all the corners where paint can be chipped off , above the waterline ,don't over detail , and paint the boat properly in the first place, a steel boat can be extremely low mainteanance . I average an hour or two out of every year and less than $50 on maintenance, and my boat is 17 years old .Except for a few chips here and there, the original paint is as good as the day I put it on. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > Boat's I've built in the past were of either carbon steel, ASTM A36, > or Corten construction and a skiff or two of Aliminum, 5052, I've > been wondering about building using 304 ASTM A240 stainless steel. I > think the ideal stainless would be 316L for salt water aplication but > the cost would be prohibitive. I think the chloride stress corrosion > problem associated w/ 304 can be circumvented with the proper > application of paint. My question would then be.. What thickness of > 304 stainless steel would equal, say, 3/16" ASTM A36 carbon steel, > What physical properties do you look at to make the comparison, > Hardness, Tensile strength's, Elasticity, all of the above?. > For example, Ultimate tensile strength of 304 is about 1/3 greater > than that of A36, Does this mean I could use 1/3 less material > thickness? > The weight savings, 5.04 lbs/sq ft vice 7.66 lbs/sq ft using the a > 3/16" vs 11 GA. as an example. Does this come close to the lbs/sq ft > of a fiberglass hull? > > > John

Replies Author Date 264 Your book Doug Barnard Thu 6/28/2001 265 Re: Your book Doug Barnard Thu 6/28/2001 269 Re: Your book brentswain38@h... Wed 7/4/2001
From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 7:55 pm
Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull

    I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull - makes an incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if it gets thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my case, the hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate, and now you have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray foam.

        Areas I'm still pondering are:

        - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel - last boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue - but it was most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without draining. Do I leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the keel sump, or not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam?

    - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a significant degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin (over top of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over - but how do you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy, mobile weight of the chain clear of the hull?

    - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal foam from diesel fuel/motor oil).

                    Norm

Replies Author Date 262 Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull John Olson Wed 6/27/2001 263 Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull John Callahan Thu 6/28/2001 266 Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull brentswain38@h... Thu 6/28/2001
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 10:49 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] For purposes of comparison...

This boat was discussed quite a bit on the Metal Boats Forum. I took a look at the construction pictures, there sure are LOTS of little pieces! One of the possible reasons it is taking so long is that Tony insisted on Tig welding the hull. He also didn't believe some of us that suggested that his 250 amp machine was way to small for something of this size. I wouldn't be surprised if he had lots of trouble with warping because of the small welding machine. If the machine is too small you will not be able to travel very fast and most of your heat will be absorbed by the surrounding metal, which will expand and cause warping. Like steel you always want to weld with the least amount of heat input, which means traveling fast. I also found the pictures of his efforts to insulate the hull with rigid foam interesting. It appears he is only insulating between the frames, not over them. If you think a steel boat sweats where there is any exposed metal, imagine what aluminum with its MUCH higher thermal conductivity will do! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <pvanderw@o...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 9:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] For purposes of comparison... > > For those of you doing comparison of origami vs. standard > construction, and of steel vs. aluminium, there is some interesting > info about an aluminium Van de Stat 34 here: > > http://www.green-witch.50megs.com/ > > This boat has been under construction for about 2 years and is still > mostly an empty hull. There are a lot of the builder's opinions, to > which you may feel free to disagree. Mr. Swain's friend could have > built his boat and sailed to Australia and back in the same time. > > There is a 1986 steel version of the boat for sale in Florida for > about $30,000. > > Peter > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Boat building texts.

Brent, I believe you mentioned here somewhere about installing a floor in your boat to increase the stiffness of the hull in the area where the keels are attached. I looked at all the construction pictures in the archives and when I looked at the pictures of keel installations I was a little surprise at how little reinforcing there was in the area of the keels. Have there been problems with flexing in the keel area? I am very sensitive to this issue, because I once owned a 1976 Hunter 27 which nearly had the keel fall off. Hunter 27s from 75 to about 78 had a basic engineering design flaw that weakened the hull in the keel area by a huge amount. I repaired it properly but it was a huge job. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat building texts. > What percentage of the total the hull represents depends on how good > a scrounger you are . The advantage of steel is that stainless cleats > and many other fittings can be built from scrap for a tiny fraction > of what they cost new. When the metal work is done, you have your > hatches , cleats . chainplates, anchors, bowroller, self steering, > etc, etc, all stuff you have to buy for other kinds of boats. > My 31 footer cost $4,000 to launch and $6,000 to get sailing and > living aboard.I did my scrounging well in advance. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > I found Boatbuilding With Steel by the late Gilbert Klingel > extremely > > good. It was my "bible" when I built Nekeyah. Published by > > International Marine Publishing Company, Camden, Maine. 1973 > Hopefully > > it is still in print in a later edition. > > Don't get too excited about cheap hulls - it is the fitting out that > > costs the big dollars. > > Regards, > > Richard. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...>
Date: Tue Jun 26, 2001 11:22 pm
Subject: S.Stl as a hull material

    Seems to me sub waterline corrosion due to differential oxygen concentration is the reason you do not use S.Stl as pilings, or to build boat hulls. Per my wife (who's the metalurgical specialist), it's all sensitivity to chloride corrosion. Either way, the conclusion is the same - stainless steel is a bad material choice for building a hull - even a reasonably prepped mild steel hull will out last it.

Replies Author Date 261 Re: S.Stl as a hull material John Callahan Wed 6/27/2001 267 Re: S.Stl as a hull material yah02840@y... Fri 6/29/2001 268 Re: S.Stl as a hull material Richard Payne Sat 6/30/2001 270 Re: S.Stl as a hull material brentswain38@h... Wed 7/4/2001
From: "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: S.Stl as a hull material

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> wrote: > Seems to me sub waterline corrosion due to differential oxygen concentration is the reason you do not use S.Stl as pilings, or to build boat hulls. Per my wife (who's the metalurgical specialist), it's all sensitivity to chloride corrosion. Either way, the conclusion is the same - stainless steel is a bad material choice for building a hull - even a reasonably prepped mild steel hull will out last it. Don't ask me how many years ago it was but I seem to remember an article in one of the Sailing rag's about a Stainless steel sailboat. I think it was called the "British Steel". I've searched for current information on this boat but can't come up with anything. Maby it was my imagination. Stainless steel is used in ship construction. 316L (L for low carbon) is the choice material for this purpose but is twice the price of regular 304. 304L is also a good choice for salt water use but its close to the price of 316L. I arn't an engineer, but i'm thinking, perhaps since ss is less ductile than mild steel it's more apt to crack at stress points. Maby a mild steel hull w/ a 304 ss deck? Less weight topside, better corrosion resistance, It would still have to be painted and maintained but you wouldn't get a rust streak every time you scratched or chipped the deck. John

Replies Author Date 267 Re: S.Stl as a hull material yah02840@y... Fri 6/29/2001
From: "John Olson" <John.Olson@t...>
Date: Wed Jun 27, 2001 8:55 pm
Subject: Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull

I originally sprayfoamed right down to the centreline on my twin-keeler. It was suggested to me by the foaming company that I glass over the foam in the bilge to stop water penetration. I did this, and then painted over with a urethane-based intumenscent paint. After about 10 years, I found that the foam was saturated with water, but only about 4-5" up the side from the bottom of the bilge. It appeared to be starting where things like anchors, etc, had punctured the glass and the foam. I scraped out the foam to about 12" up from the centreline. The 3 coats of high-build epoxy under the foam were in perfect condition. I added 3 more coats of coal tar epoxy on the bilge area and up over the exposed edge of the foam and there's been no problem since. Cheers John ----- Original Message ----- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:55:44 -0400 > From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> > Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull > > I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull - makes an incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if it gets thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my case, the hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate, and now you have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray foam. > > Areas I'm still pondering are: > - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel - last boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue - but it was most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without draining. Do I leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the keel sump, or not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam? > > - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a significant degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin (over top of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over - but how do you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy, mobile weight of the chain clear of the hull? > > - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal foam from diesel fuel/motor oil). > > Norm

Replies Author Date 263 Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull John Callahan Thu 6/28/2001 266 Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull brentswain38@h... Thu 6/28/2001
From: "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...>
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull

In chain lockers, under the auxiliary and Lazerette's I've covered lagging and insulation with stainless steel sheet. Make cardboard template's, carefully marking where bends are required, transfer template to sheet metal, cut bend, fit, etc. They can be secured with cres banding, sheetmetal screws, pop-rivets, or adhesive. Also makes for a sharp locking locker. John --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Olson" <John.Olson@t...> wrote: > I originally sprayfoamed right down to the centreline on my twin- keeler. It > was suggested to me by the foaming company that I glass over the foam in the > bilge to stop water penetration. I did this, and then painted over with a > urethane-based intumenscent paint. After about 10 years, I found that the > foam was saturated with water, but only about 4-5" up the side from the > bottom of the bilge. It appeared to be starting where things like anchors, > etc, had punctured the glass and the foam. I scraped out the foam to about > 12" up from the centreline. The 3 coats of high-build epoxy under the foam > were in perfect condition. I added 3 more coats of coal tar epoxy on the > bilge area and up over the exposed edge of the foam and there's been no > problem since. > > Cheers > > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:55:44 -0400 > > From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> > > Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull > > > > I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull - makes an > incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if it gets > thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my case, the > hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate, and now you > have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray foam. > > > > Areas I'm still pondering are: > > - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel - last > boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue - but it was > most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without draining. Do I > leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the keel sump, or > not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam? > > > > - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a significant > degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin (over top > of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over - but how do > you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy, mobile > weight of the chain clear of the hull? > > > > - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal foam from > diesel fuel/motor oil). > > > > Norm

Replies Author Date 266 Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull brentswain38@h... Thu 6/28/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 6:20 pm
Subject: Your book

Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 >

Replies Author Date 265 Re: Your book Doug Barnard Thu 6/28/2001 269 Re: Your book brentswain38@h... Wed 7/4/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:50 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Your book

Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage > http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

Replies Author Date 269 Re: Your book brentswain38@h... Wed 7/4/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:36 pm
Subject: Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull

Chain lockers tend to be high enough in the hull to allow any water to drain out of, or away from the foam. This is not the case in the bilge area or under the engine. In such places , it's only a matter of time beforwe water and ,or oil inevitably finds it's way into the foam regardless of what you cover it with. Given that it's such a small area compared with the rest of the boat , it's best to avoid foam there altogether as the problems with foaming these areas far outweigh the advantages of doing so. Once foamed, you have no way of knowing what's happening behind everything until major dammage has resulted. Insulating the floor above the bilges can drastically reduce the amount of condensation in the bilge, as can throwing down a piece of carpet for the cold seasons. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > In chain lockers, under the auxiliary and Lazerette's I've covered > lagging and insulation with stainless steel sheet. Make cardboard > template's, carefully marking where bends are required, transfer > template to sheet metal, cut bend, fit, etc. They can be secured with > cres banding, sheetmetal screws, pop-rivets, or adhesive. Also makes > for a sharp locking locker. > > > John > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Olson" <John.Olson@t...> wrote: > > I originally sprayfoamed right down to the centreline on my twin- > keeler. It > > was suggested to me by the foaming company that I glass over the > foam in the > > bilge to stop water penetration. I did this, and then painted over > with a > > urethane-based intumenscent paint. After about 10 years, I found > that the > > foam was saturated with water, but only about 4-5" up the side from > the > > bottom of the bilge. It appeared to be starting where things like > anchors, > > etc, had punctured the glass and the foam. I scraped out the foam > to about > > 12" up from the centreline. The 3 coats of high-build epoxy under > the foam > > were in perfect condition. I added 3 more coats of coal tar epoxy > on the > > bilge area and up over the exposed edge of the foam and there's > been no > > problem since. > > > > Cheers > > > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:55:44 -0400 > > > From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> > > > Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull > > > > > > I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull - makes > an > > incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if it > gets > > thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my > case, the > > hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate, > and now you > > have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray > foam. > > > > > > Areas I'm still pondering are: > > > - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel > - last > > boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue - > but it was > > most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without draining. > Do I > > leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the keel > sump, or > > not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam? > > > > > > - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a > significant > > degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin > (over top > > of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over - but > how do > > you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy, > mobile > > weight of the chain clear of the hull? > > > > > > - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal > foam from > > diesel fuel/motor oil). > > > > > > Norm From: yah02840@y...
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:30 am
Subject: Re: S.Stl as a hull material

--- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> wrote: > > Seems to me sub waterline corrosion due to differential oxygen > concentration is the reason you do not use S.Stl as pilings, or to > build boat hulls. Per my wife (who's the metalurgical specialist), > it's all sensitivity to chloride corrosion. Either way, the > conclusion is the same - stainless steel is a bad material choice for > building a hull - even a reasonably prepped mild steel hull will out > last it. > > > British Steel is built with Mild Steel. Sponsored by the British Steel company. Don't ask me how many years ago it was but I seem to remember an > article in one of the Sailing rag's about a Stainless steel sailboat. > I think it was called the "British Steel". I've searched for current > information on this boat but can't come up with anything. Maby it was > my imagination. > Iit is common practice in France to use Stainless Steel for decks and to use a liberal amount of it for detailing. Bow chocks, cleats, tracks. etc..An approach as far the hull is concerned is to use 304 or 316 SS extrusions or flat bars for longitudinals and framing. Stainless steel is used in ship construction. 316L (L for low carbon) > is the choice material for this purpose but is twice the price of > regular 304. 304L is also a good choice for salt water use but its > close to the price of 316L. I arn't an engineer, but i'm thinking, > perhaps since ss is less ductile than mild steel it's more apt to > crack at stress points. Maby a mild steel hull w/ a 304 ss deck? > Less weight topside, better corrosion resistance, It would still have > to be painted and maintained but you wouldn't get a rust streak every > time you scratched or chipped the deck. > > John From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:10 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: S.Stl as a hull material

Have you thought of metal spraying? i.e. grit blast and then use a gun to plaster the whole lot with coats of melted aluminum and zinc. I made all of my rails and stanchions from mild steel and had them treated this way and it has been 100% successful. This is a pretty established and time tested process. I wish I had had the money to do the entire hull, inside and out! Having said the above, I still think that corrosion on a properly protected steel boat is a very minor concern, much much less than the problems you would have with crevice corrosion, weld decay and heat distortion with a stainless one. The thing would be an absolute nightmare! It would also be an "orphan" and difficult to sell when the time came. Remember, amateur boat builders tend to be individualists, a very special breed of people, but most of the rest of the population flock toward the sheep end of the spectrum and shy away from anything too different. Regardless of how you feel now, you will one day want to sell your creation and this becomes an important factor. Regards, Richard.

Replies Author Date 270 Re: S.Stl as a hull material brentswain38@h... Wed 7/4/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: Your book

Doug Your book is in the mail. Canada post aint too swift, like the political hacks who run it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage > > http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: S.Stl as a hull material

A friend bought a metal spraying gun at a garage sale for $60. The owner thought it was a paint sprayer. He then boght the whole outfit , flow meters, guages , hoses etc for $300 used, The aluminum wire he bought was quite cheap, but the oxy acetylene wasn't . He was still able to do the job, tools , materials and all included ,for a fraction of the price of hiring someone to do it , and he still had the equipment to sell at the end of it .He was told the US military was dumping all their equipment and going for the electric guns. That equipment probably ended up in a scrapyard for a dollar a pound . A group of boatbuilders in Victoria once chipped in and bought the equipment ,and did their own boats for a fraction of the cost of having it done, then sold the equipment. The resulting job worked extremely well. I once flame sprayed a boat. I found it very important to keep the gun clean. The spray started out very fine and the steel was barely warmed. As the tiny holes in the gun alongside the wire gradually filled up, the spray began to splatter, and the steel got hotter.It also didn't stick as well. It was time to take the gun apart and clean out the tiny holes. When that was done, the spray was again as fine as fine sandpaper, and the steel stoppped warming up. For a first class job, the gun should be cleaned frequently. I've seen the results of military tests on flame spraying ,and the aluminium spray was far superior to zinc. Aluminium costs more per pound, but at a fraction the weight of zinc, covers a lot more surface per pound at a given thickness. Aluminium woud probably take more oxy acetylene . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > Have you thought of metal spraying? i.e. grit blast and then use a gun > to plaster the whole lot with coats of melted aluminum and zinc. I made > all of my rails and stanchions from mild steel and had them treated this > way and it has been 100% successful. This is a pretty established and > time tested process. > I wish I had had the money to do the entire hull, inside and out! > Having said the above, I still think that corrosion on a properly > protected steel boat is a very minor concern, much much less than the > problems you would have with crevice corrosion, weld decay and heat > distortion with a stainless one. The thing would be an absolute > nightmare! > It would also be an "orphan" and difficult to sell when the time came. > Remember, amateur boat builders tend to be individualists, a very > special breed of people, but most of the rest of the population flock > toward the sheep end of the spectrum and shy away from anything too > different. Regardless of how you feel now, you will one day want to sell > your creation and this becomes an important factor. > Regards, > Richard. From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Wed Jul 4, 2001 9:45 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Your book

Brent, I also ordered your book about three weeks ago. Is mine in the mail as well? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Your book > Doug > Your book is in the mail. Canada post aint too swift, like the > political hacks who run it. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > > > > > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage > > > http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 272 Re: Your book brentswain38@h... Sat 7/7/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Sat Jul 7, 2001 3:43 am
Subject: Re: Your book

Yes. It's in the mail. --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > I also ordered your book about three weeks ago. Is mine in the mail as > well? > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Your book > > > > Doug > > Your book is in the mail. Canada post aint too swift, like the > > political hacks who run it. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > > > > > > > > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > Doug Barnard Virtual Acreage > > > > http://virtualacreage.com 818-991-9328 > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Sat Jul 14, 2001 3:48 pm
Subject: Brents Book

I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished reading it by 11:30 pm. It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take that as comment on the content. It has lots of good ideas on how to build your own boat inexpensively. I was little disappointed though in how little information there was on the actual design of an origami hull. I suppose this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would have been very interesting to me. I may never actually build my own boat, but I'm very interested in the process of how the design comes about. I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three boats. I am assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living off the proceeds from a $20 book! If that's the case then Brent needs to sharpen his sales skills a little. It would have been real nice to have plans prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address and ordering information for getting the plans. Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 277 Re: Brents Book brentswain38@h... Tue 7/17/2001 290 Re: Brents Book Gary H. Lucas Tue 7/31/2001 291 Re: Brents Book brentswain38@h... Wed 8/1/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Jul 15, 2001 6:38 pm
Subject: spray foam fires?

> National Fisherman did an article about a year ago relating to the fire > dangers of spray- in foam. Most of this is polyurethane and once > it catches > on fire it is nearly impossible to put out. It is still being > used but the > Coast Guard is looking seriously at not allowing it on inspected vessels. > It may be worth looking at more fire resistant alternatives. Fire is still > one of the leading causes of death among the Alaskan fishing fleet. Thanks for the tip! An excellent cite- do you happen to know the issue date? I'd like to pick up a back copy and spread the word around. In a brief search, I found that the Flexible Products Co. (makers of "Great Stuff" canned spray foam, available in hardware stores) makes a product called "Froth-Pak" that is fire retardant. A quote from the web page: "Question: Is the Froth-Pak fire-retardant? Answer: The 25FS version of the Froth-Pak (available in the 180 and larger kits) is considered to be fire retardant. It will burn if exposed to open flame, but it is self-extinguishing when the source is removed." I guess that wood or fabric could fall into that category, as well. I can see that loose wiring could rub and short itself, and when in direct contact with the foam, start a fire that way. I was planning on running standard plastic conduit, and foaming that into place. ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 275 Re: spray foam fires? Richard Payne Mon 7/16/2001 276 Re: spray foam fires? cdbarry@h... Mon 7/16/2001 278 Re: spray foam fires? brentswain38@h... Tue 7/17/2001
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:24 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] spray foam fires?

Check out the products of combustion of foams. I know that some generate highly toxic gases, and that even a small fire can therefore be extremely dangerous. Regards, Richard Payne.

Replies Author Date 276 Re: spray foam fires? cdbarry@h... Mon 7/16/2001 278 Re: spray foam fires? brentswain38@h... Tue 7/17/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Mon Jul 16, 2001 12:57 pm
Subject: Re: spray foam fires?

--- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > Check out the products of combustion of foams. I know that some generate > highly toxic gases, and that even a small fire can therefore be > extremely dangerous. > > Regards, > Richard Payne. There is an extensive Coast Guard report on the subject that can be found by searching the Coast Guard site, www.uscg.mil, probably under marine safety and environmental protection. Also look at the NVICs, especially "Voluntary safety standards for fishing vessels" (probably 5-86).

Replies Author Date 278 Re: spray foam fires? brentswain38@h... Tue 7/17/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:26 am
Subject: Re: Brents Book

-Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for the 40 $500.They can be ordered the same way as the book. Designing an origami boat is done the same way as designing any hard chine boat, then the plate shapes are taken from the drawing, or off a model and an origami model is made. It can then be lofted full size into the plate and construction begins. I'm not much of a salesman or hustler, as long as my income matches my outgo, I don't worry too much about the numbers in some banker's computer.As I live aboard and keep cruising full time, I've never had to pay moorage on my current boat, and my cost of living is tiny .I support neither vehicle, nor ex's, nor booze nor nicotine, nor offspring(don't have any that I'm aware of.) Cruising can be cheap as long as you do it at sea rather than in the bars. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished reading it by > 11:30 pm. It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take that as > comment on the content. It has lots of good ideas on how to build your own > boat inexpensively. I was little disappointed though in how little > information there was on the actual design of an origami hull. I suppose > this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would have been > very interesting to me. I may never actually build my own boat, but I'm > very interested in the process of how the design comes about. > > I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three boats. I am > assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living off the > proceeds from a $20 book! If that's the case then Brent needs to sharpen > his sales skills a little. It would have been real nice to have plans > prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address and > ordering information for getting the plans. > > Gary H. Lucas From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:39 am
Subject: Re: spray foam fires?

A friend was doing a bit of welding on his 36 footer in Frisco Bay, when the foam caught fire. The entire aft end of the boat was gutted and the loran was melted into plastic stalagmites and stalactites. Despite the extreme heat , any place where the foam was painted with cheap latex paint, it wouldn't burn. This wasn't the intumescent , fire retardant paint, just cheap hardware store latex paint.The fire couldn't get enough oxygen through the paint to support combustion. Even the fire resistant intumescent paint sold by pitsburg and other manufacturers doesn't add up to a great expense in the greater scheme of things.It's well worth while painting the entire inside of the boat after foaming and triming the foam, before puting the interior in. Intumescent paint foams up when heated to form a protective insulating ,non combustible , carbon like foam which insulates the foam from the flame . This material can be scraped off and re heated several times before there isn't enough left to protect the foam from an open flame. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > Check out the products of combustion of foams. I know that some > generate > > highly toxic gases, and that even a small fire can therefore be > > extremely dangerous. > > > > Regards, > > Richard Payne. > > There is an extensive Coast Guard report on the subject that can be > found by searching the Coast Guard site, www.uscg.mil, probably under > marine safety and environmental protection. Also look at the NVICs, > especially "Voluntary safety standards for fishing vessels" (probably > 5-86). From: "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...>
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2001 11:24 am
Subject: Origamo 45?

Hello Brent Are 40 the upper limit for the Origami method? Or is it possible to build a 45-footer? With a rudder under the hull -- skeg supported? (so faar I've only seen pics on Origami boats with aft hung rudders) If Yes: What would the price tag on that plan package be? Regards, sigge ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 3:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > the 40 $500.

Replies Author Date 286 Re: Origamo 45? brentswain38@h... Fri 7/27/2001
From: "Shelley & Foster Price" <fprice@i...>
Date: Fri Jul 20, 2001 12:03 pm
Subject: Irony rope to chain splice

Hello Guys I'm looking for the instuctions for the "Irony" rope to chain splice for three strand - this is the one where the rope goes down the chains links instead of round and being backspliced. I know its in Brion Toss's book but there isn't a copy round here, it was also written up in "Practical Boat Owner" mag recently. I know the basics of the splice but I need to know more about its properties and how to size the rope to chain. Regards - Foster From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 6:13 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Waste Heat Recovery

> From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Alex Hirsekorn > Waste heat is also routinely used for watermaking on large ships > (often with > an assist from excess vacuum). This link shows some systems built by Alfa > Laval that are too large for our purposes. Again, systems such as these > should be scaleable. The above post, combined with a "what if" from Brent Swain's "How to Build a Better Steel Boat", gave me a bit of inspiration for a watermaker that uses waste heat. It requires a dry stack installation. I've uploaded a schematic to the TWL Attachment Archives (thanks Paul!): http://www.whooppee.com/TWL/distiller.jpg A float valve in the cool tank turns on a raw water pump when the level falls too low. The cool tank in connected to the hot tank by an open pipe, thus maintaining a constant water level between the two. As water is evaporated, it goes into the 1/2" copper line which is coiled in the cool tank, condensing it. The water jacket would also provide insulation from the heat of the exhaust stack as it passed through living spaces. Tank construction would be of scrap stainless steel. Any commentary? Hey, maybe this could be turned into a moonshine still! :) ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 282 Re: Waste Heat Recovery Doug Barnard Tue 7/24/2001 285 Re: Waste Heat Recovery brentswain38@h... Fri 7/27/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: Waste Heat Recovery

> From: Michael Schooley [mailto:schooley@k...] > Looks like a nice simple design. I think you might be onto > something really > good. However no engineer can resist suggesting a few changes; Lord save us from the engineers! :) > 1 Add a brine bleed to the bottom of the hot tank, otherwise > the salinity > will increase until it reaches 100% and the still stops working. Gotcha on that one. > 2 To recover some of the heat from the brine before you dump > it overboard, > you could put the line from the cold tank to the hot tank inside the brine > bleed line. This makes it a reverse flow heat exchanger. I was thinking that the pipe would be short, about an 1 1/2" in diameter. This would make the unit fairly compact. As the brine dump wouldn't happen continuously, would this really be worthwhile? > 3 Make the hot tank and the exhaust pipe concentric pipes. The drawing was purposely exaggerated to show the concept, but I was thinking of maybe an inch or so of clearance all 'round the exhaust pipe. > 4 Use a platelet heat exchanger for the cold chamber and > condensation line > and reverse the flows. <snip> > even though > they cost more than scrap stainless, I think the compact size and > efficiency > be worth the cost. Yikes! That little jewel looks expensive. I was thinking of a coil of 1/4" or 1/2" copper line inside the cool tank. You work for NASA? :) Also, I'm not following this "reverse the flows" thing. That chart is nice, but how does the water flow? How would you get it to go backwards? <snip> > 5 Since you are using the hot chamber to shield the living > spaces from the > exhaust heat (I think this is a really good idea by the way!) you > don't want > to ever let the hot chamber run dry. However when the fresh water > tanks get > full, the water/steam has to have somewhere to go. Therefore, I suggest a > pressure relief valve at the top of the exhaust stack. The other > alternative > would be a pressure relief valve on the fresh water line, just > prior to the > storage tank, vented overboard, but that means another through hull. That sounds good. Though I think that thing isn't going to work quite that well that I have to worry about all of the spare fresh water that I would have to get rid of! > 6 Once you add a pressure relief valve to the hot chamber, > you might as well > match it to the operating pressure of the water system and eliminate the > fresh water pump. All you need is a check valve and a pressure > accumulator. I don't think that there will be that much pressure! If so, I would want to relieve it immediately. > 7 Since you will have hot water half-way through the > condenser, add a tap in > the middle to feed the hot water tank. This would mean a custom plate heat > exchanger, unless you use two in series and take the hat water before the > second heat exchanger. Uh oh, too complex! Too many parts! :) > 8 Since you will have pressurized steam on board, feed it to > one of those > cool sounding steam whistles like the old tug boats used to have and > activate it with a pull chain in the pilothouse. I think that you're seeing "boiler" and I'm seeing "evaporator" in this design. As fine as it would be to come motoring into port, toot-tooting on my steam whistle, jaw thrust forward and chest swelling with manly pride, with this system, all I would get is a flaccid sigh. Trying to build pressure vessels is way beyond my level of expertise! Thanks for the commentary! ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe From: winslow59@y...
Date: Tue Jul 24, 2001 11:56 pm
Subject: MBS Festival

Are any of the OrigamiBoats members planning to attend the Metal Boat Society Festival? Are any Swain/origami boats likely to be there and available for viewing/inspection? http://www.metalboatsociety.com/festival.htm

Replies Author Date 284 Re: MBS Festival brentswain38@h... Fri 7/27/2001 289 Re: MBS Festival Gary H. Lucas Tue 7/31/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:22 am
Subject: Re: MBS Festival

There are none of my boats going to the Metal Boat Festival that I'm aware of . There possibly would be if it were in Oak Harbour as usual, but they decided to have it near Portland, Oregon, a long way from most of my boats, and many other boats from BC and Washington. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., winslow59@y... wrote: > Are any of the OrigamiBoats members planning to attend the Metal Boat > Society Festival? Are any Swain/origami boats likely to be there and > available for viewing/inspection? > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/festival.htm From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:31 am
Subject: Re: Waste Heat Recovery

A friend tried this without much success. I believe his tank was too big.There is a limit to how much water you can boil with a limited amount of heat source.A vacuum pump would drastically lower the boiling point. You would have to flush the salt out frequently. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Alex Hirsekorn > > > Waste heat is also routinely used for watermaking on large ships > > (often with > > an assist from excess vacuum). This link shows some systems built by Alfa > > Laval that are too large for our purposes. Again, systems such as these > > should be scaleable. > > The above post, combined with a "what if" from Brent Swain's "How to Build a > Better Steel Boat", gave me a bit of inspiration for a watermaker that uses > waste heat. It requires a dry stack installation. I've uploaded a schematic > to the TWL Attachment Archives (thanks Paul!): > > http://www.whooppee.com/TWL/distiller.jpg > > A float valve in the cool tank turns on a raw water pump when the level > falls too low. The cool tank in connected to the hot tank by an open pipe, > thus maintaining a constant water level between the two. As water is > evaporated, it goes into the 1/2" copper line which is coiled in the cool > tank, condensing it. The water jacket would also provide insulation from the > heat of the exhaust stack as it passed through living spaces. Tank > construction would be of scrap stainless steel. > > Any commentary? Hey, maybe this could be turned into a moonshine still! :) > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > "Fiesta Bimbo" > trawler-crawler wannabe From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2001 1:41 am
Subject: Re: Origamo 45?

The biggest boat I've designed(or have any interest in designing ) is the 40 footer. You can biuld any hard chine hull using the origami techniques . You can take the plate shapes off the lines drawing by computer, or make a model and take the plate shapes off the model.The rest of the building proccess is the same. The stringers can't be much heavier, or they'll have trouble bending, but you can put in more of them, or stack them after the hull is together, for added stiffness. In aluminium they can be bigger. An inboard rudder makes the self steering and inside steering options fragile, expensive , and extremely complex. There is no way the rudder can be made as strong and reliable as it is with a transom hung rudder. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...> wrote: > Hello Brent > > Are 40 the upper limit for the Origami method? Or is it possible to build a 45-footer? With a rudder under the hull -- skeg supported? (so faar I've only seen pics on Origami boats with aft hung rudders) > If Yes: What would the price tag on that plan package be? > > Regards, sigge > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 3:26 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book > > > > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > > the 40 $500. From: stephenw@t...
Date: Sun Jul 29, 2001 10:57 pm
Subject: Non-origami boats allowed?

Greetings, I have just purchased a Roberts 35 sailboat hull, deck and cabin. Right now it's just a big empty tin can, still in red primer. It will be an engineless boat with a schooner junk rig. I am dealing with junk rig issues on the junkrig list. I have lots questions relating to finishing this boat. Also questions related to sourcing new or used things like galvanized portholes and an anchor winch, and design for building a self steering for spade rudder/tiller. I am also interested in information on strengthening the boat to accept unstayed cedar masts. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Stephen Wandling Vancouver, BC

Replies Author Date 288 Re: Non-origami boats allowed? neilhuget@c... Mon 7/30/2001
From: neilhuget@c...
Date: Mon Jul 30, 2001 1:06 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Non-origami boats allowed?

Hi, www.boatbuilding.com is all you need to know also, www.sailnet.com...read all the articles by "sue and larry", they home built a 34 junk rigged boat, sister ship to annie hill's Badger From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 12:04 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: MBS Festival

I would have liked to attend this affair, I didn't hear about it until too late to change my travel plans. I flew from NJ into Seattle on Thursday, then to Yakima and back home again on Saturday. It would have been nice stay for a few more days and get something more out of the $1674 the customer spent on my airfare! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: MBS Festival > There are none of my boats going to the Metal Boat Festival that I'm > aware of . There possibly would be if it were in Oak Harbour as usual, > but they decided to have it near Portland, Oregon, a long way from > most of my boats, and many other boats from BC and Washington. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., winslow59@y... wrote: > > Are any of the OrigamiBoats members planning to attend the Metal > Boat > > Society Festival? Are any Swain/origami boats likely to be there and > > available for viewing/inspection? > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/festival.htm > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Tue Jul 31, 2001 12:09 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book

Brent, A little self promotion would never be considered to be hustling. The world DOESN'T beat a path to your door even you have the greatest thing the world has ever seen. You still have to put up signs to guide people, and that is all I was suggesting. So what is included in your plans set? I am considering buying a set to further my education, as it seems unlikely I'll ever get around to actually building my own boat. I do however go sailing frequently so all is not lost. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > the 40 $500.They can be ordered the same way as the book. > Designing an origami boat is done the same way as designing any > hard chine boat, then the plate shapes are taken from the drawing, or > off a model and an origami model is made. It can then be lofted full > size into the plate and construction begins. > I'm not much of a salesman or hustler, as long as my income matches > my outgo, I don't worry too much about the numbers in some banker's > computer.As I live aboard and keep cruising full time, I've never had > to pay moorage on my current boat, and my cost of living is tiny .I > support neither vehicle, nor ex's, nor booze nor nicotine, nor > offspring(don't have any that I'm aware of.) > Cruising can be cheap as long as you do it at sea rather than in > the bars. > Brent Swain > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished > reading it by > > 11:30 pm. It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take > that as > > comment on the content. It has lots of good ideas on how to build > your own > > boat inexpensively. I was little disappointed though in how little > > information there was on the actual design of an origami hull. I > suppose > > this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would > have been > > very interesting to me. I may never actually build my own boat, > but I'm > > very interested in the process of how the design comes about. > > > > I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three > boats. I am > > assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living > off the > > proceeds from a $20 book! If that's the case then Brent needs to > sharpen > > his sales skills a little. It would have been real nice to have > plans > > prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address > and > > ordering information for getting the plans. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 291 Re: Brents Book brentswain38@h... Wed 8/1/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 12:10 am
Subject: Re: Brents Book

Plans include the basic shell(hull,deck, rudder, skeg , keel ), mast,rigging, sails, tankage, hatches,hatch hinges , deck layout ,interior layouts, detail drawings (hatches, self steering, bow roller, rudder fittings , chainplates , mooring bitts , cleats , handrails,ballast,exhaust, keelcooler,mast support, tabernacle etc.The book has drawings for the roller furling, anchor winch , self steering, engine mounts running pole fittings ,jibsheet leads,dinghy,chine doubler plates, sheerlegs,mast support,tabernacle, bow roller, head, etc. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > A little self promotion would never be considered to be hustling. The world > DOESN'T beat a path to your door even you have the greatest thing the world > has ever seen. You still have to put up signs to guide people, and that is > all I was suggesting. > > So what is included in your plans set? I am considering buying a set to > further my education, as it seems unlikely I'll ever get around to actually > building my own boat. I do however go sailing frequently so all is not > lost. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book > > > > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > > the 40 $500.They can be ordered the same way as the book. > > Designing an origami boat is done the same way as designing any > > hard chine boat, then the plate shapes are taken from the drawing, or > > off a model and an origami model is made. It can then be lofted full > > size into the plate and construction begins. > > I'm not much of a salesman or hustler, as long as my income matches > > my outgo, I don't worry too much about the numbers in some banker's > > computer.As I live aboard and keep cruising full time, I've never had > > to pay moorage on my current boat, and my cost of living is tiny .I > > support neither vehicle, nor ex's, nor booze nor nicotine, nor > > offspring(don't have any that I'm aware of.) > > Cruising can be cheap as long as you do it at sea rather than in > > the bars. > > Brent Swain > > > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > > I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished > > reading it by > > > 11:30 pm. It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take > > that as > > > comment on the content. It has lots of good ideas on how to build > > your own > > > boat inexpensively. I was little disappointed though in how little > > > information there was on the actual design of an origami hull. I > > suppose > > > this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would > > have been > > > very interesting to me. I may never actually build my own boat, > > but I'm > > > very interested in the process of how the design comes about. > > > > > > I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three > > boats. I am > > > assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living > > off the > > > proceeds from a $20 book! If that's the case then Brent needs to > > sharpen > > > his sales skills a little. It would have been real nice to have > > plans > > > prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address > > and > > > ordering information for getting the plans. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > From: "Patrick" <pfolk@g...>
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 4:12 pm
Subject: Free Steel

Hi all, I have a bunch of steel for anyone that might want it for free. It was formed for some kind of shoring for some really big ditches, thats all I can find out about it. A few of the pieces are 35 feet long but most are in the 10 foot range. It is all 3/8ths inch thick. Jut as a wild guess I would say there is 50,000 pounds plus of this stuff. If anyone wants it, it's free for the taking but you will need a crane or very large forklift and a flatbed semi with a 40 foot trailer. Just let me know. The price is right anyway.

Replies Author Date 294 Re: Free Steel Doug Barnard Thu 8/2/2001 295 Re: Free Steel Pat Folk Thu 8/2/2001
From: "Patrick" <pfolk@g...>
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 5:26 pm
Subject: Brents book

I know its probably here somewhere but I need the url to order the book. TIA From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2001 7:02 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Free Steel

Where you located? ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick [mailto:pfolk@g...] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:13 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Free Steel > > > Hi all, I have a bunch of steel for anyone that might want it for > free. It was formed for some kind of shoring for some really big > ditches, thats all I can find out about it. A few of the pieces are > 35 feet long but most are in the 10 foot range. It is all 3/8ths inch > thick. Jut as a wild guess I would say there is 50,000 pounds plus of > this stuff. If anyone wants it, it's free for the taking but you will > need a crane or very large forklift and a flatbed semi with a 40 foot > trailer. Just let me know. The price is right anyway. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Pat Folk" <pfolk@g...>
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Free Steel

I am in Stockton CA...the central valley and not far from Sacramento

Where you located? ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Thu Aug 2, 2001 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Brents book

Patrick No internet ordering or credit card orders as far as I know. Brent's book is available by mail from him directly: To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 for postage to: Suite #427 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick" <pfolk@g...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brents book > I know its probably here somewhere but I need the url to order the > book. > > TIA > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sat Aug 4, 2001 6:13 am
Subject: 36 foot bare Swain hull for sale in Nanaimo

For anyone looking for a bare hull to get a head start on their project, I just spotted this ad in the Vancouver Island "Buy, Sell and Trade" publication:

--------------------------------------------------------

36' Brent Swain designed hull and deck - steel.

All metal work can be finished onsite. She lays

in Nanaimo and is available to view. Steel was

mill-abraded/primed. $13,000 (CDN)

(250) 714-2422 (Nanaimo, BC)

---------------------------------------------------------

I called the number and enquired further about it, reaching the father of the owner. This single-keel bare hull has cockpit, pilothouse, decks and coachroof on, but is not yet ballasted. Rudder has been built and is ready to hang. Stringers to be installed still. Evan Shaler has performed the work on it to date, and estimated another 200 hours welding work left to go. The people are selling it for $1000 less than what it cost to build to present stage. I think it is a pretty good deal for anyone who wants to bypass the time and labour aspect on such a project.

The fellow who commisioned it has been laid up with an injury in Portland Oregon, and cannot complete the vessel. The above number will get you his father, Franz, who lives aboard in Nanaimo, and appears to be handling the sale of the hull for his son.

Just a phone number for contact at present, until Franz contacts his son for e-mail address. I may go buy and take some digital snaps when I can, and will post to files.

International enquiries can e-mail me if they like, and I can pass on messages to Franz's cellphone, as I am in the same province, just one hour north.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 8:39 pm
Subject: Coatings in Vancouver

I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about overly thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope to avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you have any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or recommend against, please let me know. I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane foaming companies. Stephen

Replies Author Date 299 Re: Coatings in Vancouver brentswain38@h... Mon 8/13/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:01 pm
Subject: Re: Coatings in Vancouver

Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about overly > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope to > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you have > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or recommend > against, please let me know. > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane > foaming companies. > > Stephen From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:06 pm
Subject: Book postage Rates

I've found that air mail of my books to Europe , New Zealand and Australia is around $10. Surface mail is around $5 . When ordering it could you please specify if you want it sent air or surface and include adequate postage. Brent Swain From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:56 pm
Subject: Shrinking plating

Brent,
Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below.
What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat that is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red hot with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in cold water? I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the bulge and tacking it to the frames when it's in position. Do you have an opinion on the pros and cons of these methods?
Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you have to get the steel temperature right. In other words, does it need to be 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc. I am also told that you only get one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave the steel in an annealed state?
Cheers,
Stephen
brentswain38@hotmail.com wrote:
Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming.
                                              Brent Swain
--- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote:
> I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about
overly
> thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope
to
> avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you
have
> any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or
recommend
> against, please let me know.
>
> I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane
> foaming companies.
>
> Stephen

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Replies Author Date 302 Re: Shrinking plating brentswain38@h... Thu 8/16/2001 303 Re: Shrinking plating brentswain38@h... Thu 8/16/2001 304 Re: Shrinking plating Stephen Wandling Fri 8/17/2001 305 Re: Shrinking plating Gary H. Lucas Fri 8/17/2001 306 Re: Shrinking plating Stephen Wandling Fri 8/17/2001 307 Re: Shrinking plating Richard Payne Fri 8/17/2001 308 Re: Shrinking plating cdbarry@h... Fri 8/17/2001 309 Re: Shrinking plating Stephen Wandling Fri 8/17/2001 310 Re: Shrinking plating Stephen Wandling Fri 8/17/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:06 pm
Subject: Re: Shrinking plating

You're right , you only get one shot at it. If it doesn't move enough, you can always try the flat bar method.The flat bar method is probably a lot easier. I wouldn't worry about anealing, as heating and quenching does the same thing each time, so the steel remains the same.The point is you aren't going to accomplish anything by doing it more than once. When you heat the metal it wants to expand, but being surrounded by metal, it can't , so the molecules are squashed closer together. When you quench it, they contract further than they would have otherwise. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Brent, > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat that > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red hot > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in cold > water? I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the bulge > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position. Do you have an > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you have to > get the steel temperature right. In other words, does it need to be > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc. I am also told that you only get > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave the > steel in an annealed state? > > Cheers, > > Stephen > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > overly > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope > > > > to > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you > > have > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > recommend > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Aug 16, 2001 9:07 pm
Subject: Re: Shrinking plating

Hotter the better, short of meltdown. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Brent, > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat that > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red hot > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in cold > water? I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the bulge > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position. Do you have an > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you have to > get the steel temperature right. In other words, does it need to be > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc. I am also told that you only get > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave the > steel in an annealed state? > > Cheers, > > Stephen > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > overly > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope > > > > to > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you > > have > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > recommend > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 1:10 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

I was doing fine until we got to the "short of meltdown" part! And how does one know when one is approaching this critical point? Are there colour stages you go through, for example?
Stephen
brentswain38@hotmail.com wrote:
Hotter the better, short of meltdown.
                                         Brent Swain
--- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote:
> Brent,
>
> Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below.
>
> What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat
that
> is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and
> longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red
hot
> with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in
cold
> water? I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the
bulge
> and tacking it to the frames when it's in position. Do you have an
> opinion on the pros and cons of these methods?
>
> Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you
have to
> get the steel temperature right. In other words, does it need to be
> 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc. I am also told that you only
get
> one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave
the
> steel in an annealed state?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stephen
>
> brentswain38@h... wrote:
>
> >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming.
> >                                               Brent Swain
> >
> > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote:
> > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about
> > overly
> > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I
hope
> >
> > to
> > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you
> > have
> > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or
> > recommend
> > > against, please let me know.
> > >
> > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on
urethane
> > > foaming companies.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> >
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

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From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 2:13 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

Stephen, Unlike aluminum which goes from shiny to GONE! almost in the blink of an eye, steel is very forgiving in this respect. You heat it and it gets redder and redder until it starts getting white hot before it finally starts to slump. I wouldn't worry too much about overheating. If you decide to use an oxyacetylene torch get yourself a rosebud tip and a LARGE bottle of acetylene. You don't need the large bottle because of the amount of gas required, you need it because acetylene is dissolved in acetone in the bottle and the rate you can draw off is limited by the surface are of the liquid in the bottle. An indication that your bottle is too small is when the torch starts popping like fire crackers. What is happening is you are drawing off acetone vapors that explode when they reach the flame. This can be very dangerous because you often get a blowback into the torch where the flame is burning down inside the torch. If you don't turn off the torch immediately it will melt down in your hands! The amount of heat an oxyacetylene torch with a large rosebud tip can put out is absolutely amazing to see, something around 500,000 BTUs in a flame about 1" in diameter! This is important because this bending method works best when you can heat a very small area to a high temperature very quickly. The slower you heat the bigger the area that gets hot and the less bending you get. Hope this helps. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating > I was doing fine until we got to the "short of meltdown" part! And how > does one know when one is approaching this critical point? Are there > colour stages you go through, for example? > > Stephen > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > Hotter the better, short of meltdown. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > Brent, > > > > > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. > > > > > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat > > that > > > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > > > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red > > hot > > > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in > > cold > > > water? I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the > > bulge > > > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position. Do you have an > > > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? > > > > > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you > > have to > > > get the steel temperature right. In other words, does it need to be > > > > > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc. I am also told that you only > > get > > > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave > > the > > > steel in an annealed state? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > > > > > Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > > > overly > > > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I > > hope > > > > > > > > to > > > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you > > > > > > have > > > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > > > recommend > > > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on > > urethane > > > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 5:01 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

Gary,
Phew! I'm pleased to learn of steel's forgiving nature. I gather both from Brent and yourself that a lot of heat is needed. I had initially been told that a 'tiger torch' burning straight propane would suffice. The sections I will be heating will be about 20" x 20" and the plate is 1/8". Right now, I don't own an oxyacetylene torch set, but could easily arrange for one. There are only about a half a dozen 'dents' that need to be dealt with.
Thanks for the advice.
Stephen Wandling
"Gary H. Lucas" wrote:
Stephen,
Unlike aluminum which goes from shiny to GONE! almost in the blink of an
eye, steel is very forgiving in this respect. You heat it and it gets
redder and redder until it starts getting white hot before it finally starts
to slump. I wouldn't worry too much about overheating. If you decide to
use an oxyacetylene torch get yourself a rosebud tip and a LARGE bottle of
acetylene. You don't need the large bottle because of the amount of gas
required, you need it because acetylene is dissolved in acetone in the
bottle and the rate you can draw off is limited by the surface are of the
liquid in the bottle. An indication that your bottle is too small is when
the torch starts popping like fire crackers. What is happening is you are
drawing off acetone vapors that explode when they reach the flame. This can
be very dangerous because you often get a blowback into the torch where the
flame is burning down inside the torch. If you don't turn off the torch
immediately it will melt down in your hands! The amount of heat an
oxyacetylene torch with a large rosebud tip can put out is absolutely
amazing to see, something around 500,000 BTUs in a flame about 1" in
diameter! This is important because this bending method works best when you
can heat a very small area to a high temperature very quickly. The slower
you heat the bigger the area that gets hot and the less bending you get.
Hope this helps.
Gary H. Lucas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@telus.net>
To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

> I was doing fine until we got to the "short of meltdown" part! And how
> does one know when one is approaching this critical point? Are there
> colour stages you go through, for example?
>
> Stephen
>
> brentswain38@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hotter the better, short of meltdown.
> >                                          Brent Swain
> >
> > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote:
> > > Brent,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below.
> > >
> > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat
> > that
> > > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and
> > > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red
> > hot
> > > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in
> > cold
> > > water? I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the
> > bulge
> > > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position. Do you have an
> > > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods?
> > >
> > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you
> > have to
> > > get the steel temperature right. In other words, does it need to be
> >
> > > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc. I am also told that you only
> > get
> > > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave
> > the
> > > steel in an annealed state?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Stephen
> > >
> > > brentswain38@h... wrote:
> > >
> > > >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming.
> > > >                                               Brent Swain
> > > >
> > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote:
> > > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about
> > > > overly
> > > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I
> > hope
> > > >
> > > > to
> > > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work. If you
> >
> > > > have
> > > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or
> > > > recommend
> > > > > against, please let me know.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on
> > urethane
> > > > > foaming companies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stephen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...
> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

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From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 8:41 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

I don't like welding shell plating to transverse framing, especially above the waterline where distortion shows. Have you tried removing the problem weld with an angle grinder before heat shrinking? Regards, Richard Payne.

Replies Author Date 308 Re: Shrinking plating cdbarry@h... Fri 8/17/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: Shrinking plating

This general technique is called "line heating" and is well established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but for producing curvature in the first place. Four passes on one line is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less effective, not because it's damaging. Line heating is approved by ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would encounter. A concentrated heat is used and water quench is generally applied in the immediate area. A cutting tip with the cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool. From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 4:37 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

You bring up an interesting point. This is a Roberts designed hull and therefore it has transverse framing and longitudinal bars. I did not build this hull and didn't receive any 'manual' regarding how the construction details were to proceed. It would appear, since the longitudinals are 'floating' in slots in the transverse frames, that the longitudinals were intended to be pushed out and tacked to the plate. I am unclear whether the longitudinal is then supposed to be welded to the transverse framing after being fastened to the plate. It does appear that the longitudinals are only meant to be tacked to the plate and not continuos welded (or maybe the welding hasn't been completed).
As I am only just starting this work, I will have to take a careful look at the boat later today, but I believe that the plate isn't welded to the transverse frames in the area adjacent to the bulges, but only tacked to the longitudinals, with the longitudinals 'floating' in the slotted transverse frames slots. Almost all of these 'bulge' areas are forward and generally seem to be 'created' by the close proximity of the adjacent chine welds, which incorporate a chine bar which may add to the problem as it has significant welding.
Would your recommendation be for me to cut all welds from the transverse frames to the plating, with the exception of at the chines? I recall that Brent Swain's experience is that more damage occurs at the transverse frame and chine bar areas when a steel boat experiences a grounding.
I will contact Bruce Roberts and get confirmation on the intended welding pattern for the transverse and longitudinal framing.
Thank you for your comments.
Stephen Wandling
Richard Payne wrote:
I don't like welding shell plating to transverse framing, especially
above the waterline where distortion shows. Have you tried removing the
problem weld with an angle grinder before heat shrinking?
Regards, Richard Payne.

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From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 4:45 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

Am I correct in assuming that 'induced prestress' might be achieved by jacking out the longitudinal and the plate in the area of the bulge? Would it then be appropriate to use line heating while the stress is in place? In lieu of a cutting torch, in your opinion would a 'tiger torch' fired by propane be an adequate tool for heating areas up to 20" x 20"?
Thanks for the info.
Stephen Wandling
cdbarry@hotmail.com wrote:
This general technique is called "line heating" and is well
established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but
for producing curvature in the first place. Four passes on one line
is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce
prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less
effective, not because it's damaging. Line heating is approved by
ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would
encounter.   A concentrated heat is used and water quench is
generally applied in the immediate area. A cutting tip with the
cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool.

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From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Fri Aug 17, 2001 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

Stephen, CDBarry's recommendation of a cutting torch with the oxygen off makes much sense that what I suggested. I was thinking your hull plating was much thicker. But the reason a cutting torch is used is because the preheat flames, which are all you have without the oxygen jet, are VERY concentrated on a small area and very hot. This is ideal because the less metal you actually heat to bright red, and the more the area around it stays cool the better the metal bends. Any torch which does not use pure oxygen for combustion will produce lots of BTUs but in a much larger area. Think Sledge hammer versus ball peen hammer. Experiments are being done using lasers to bend complex shapes by rapidly heating very small areas and some of the results I have seen pictures of are really amazing. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating > Am I correct in assuming that 'induced prestress' might be achieved by > jacking out the longitudinal and the plate in the area of the bulge? > Would it then be appropriate to use line heating while the stress is in > place? In lieu of a cutting torch, in your opinion would a 'tiger > torch' fired by propane be an adequate tool for heating areas up to 20" > x 20"? > > Thanks for the info. > > Stephen Wandling > > cdbarry@h... wrote: > > > This general technique is called "line heating" and is well > > established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but > > for producing curvature in the first place. Four passes on one line > > is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce > > prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less > > effective, not because it's damaging. Line heating is approved by > > ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would > > encounter. A concentrated heat is used and water quench is > > generally applied in the immediate area. A cutting tip with the > > cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. >

Replies Author Date 312 Re: Shrinking plating brentswain38@h... Sat 8/18/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 1:32 am
Subject: Re: Shrinking plating

Longitudinals are normally welded for about 2 inches every 6 inches. Fully welding them would create an enormous amount of distortion. Not tacking transverse frames to shell plating and leaving the longitudinals to float off the transverse frames when the longitudinal chine welds shrink, greatly reduces distortion.Welding heavy metal, like chine bars ,to light plate always causes distortion. Designing chine bars into a steel boat doubles the amount of welding and is a bad idea. Doubler plates inside the chine are a far better way to make the chine reefproof, without the distortion ,and such doubler plates are only needed amidships on single keel boats. Forceing the longitudinals out of the transverse frames with wedges may cure a lot of distortion. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Stephen, > CDBarry's recommendation of a cutting torch with the oxygen off makes much > sense that what I suggested. I was thinking your hull plating was much > thicker. But the reason a cutting torch is used is because the preheat > flames, which are all you have without the oxygen jet, are VERY concentrated > on a small area and very hot. This is ideal because the less metal you > actually heat to bright red, and the more the area around it stays cool the > better the metal bends. Any torch which does not use pure oxygen for > combustion will produce lots of BTUs but in a much larger area. Think > Sledge hammer versus ball peen hammer. Experiments are being done using > lasers to bend complex shapes by rapidly heating very small areas and some > of the results I have seen pictures of are really amazing. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@t...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating > > > > Am I correct in assuming that 'induced prestress' might be achieved by > > jacking out the longitudinal and the plate in the area of the bulge? > > Would it then be appropriate to use line heating while the stress is in > > place? In lieu of a cutting torch, in your opinion would a 'tiger > > torch' fired by propane be an adequate tool for heating areas up to 20" > > x 20"? > > > > Thanks for the info. > > > > Stephen Wandling > > > > cdbarry@h... wrote: > > > > > This general technique is called "line heating" and is well > > > established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but > > > for producing curvature in the first place. Four passes on one line > > > is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce > > > prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less > > > effective, not because it's damaging. Line heating is approved by > > > ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would > > > encounter. A concentrated heat is used and water quench is > > > generally applied in the immediate area. A cutting tip with the > > > cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:05 pm
Subject: Transverse & Longitudinal framing

What are the prime purposes served by transverse (TF) and longitudinal framing (LF) in a hard chine boat? The Roberts I am working on has 2" x 3/16" bar for transverse frames and 1" x 3/16" bar for longitudinals, with 1/8" plating. I am trying to get my head around how this is all supposed to work together. It is my understanding that in Brent's boats you only have longitudinal framing and only in the middle 2/3 or 3/4 of the boat? I gather that is to support and/or strengthen the curved sections? But, don't you have transverse framing in the cambered cabin top? The TF in my boat is not welded to the plating at all. It is welded to the chine bars and is tacked to the LF that sets in slots. The LF is tacked to the plating, while the chine bars are welded continuously. I should say that the LF is 'supposed' to be tacked to the plating. In fact it isn't in many areas, such as around bulges in the plating. After removing the bulges, should I bring the LF into contact with the plate and tack it? Also, at the first frame aft of the bow, the LF are well out of their slots in the TF. Should I weld in tabs to make this connection? Another concern is that the LF bars are not all straight, and in fact many 'snake' their way through the boat in many areas. My limited engineering understanding tells me that they don't have any of the required strength if they aren't straight. It would be a messy job to cut all of the welds to the plating and shorten these LF members, but if it's absolutely necessary then I will have to do this. Some time you have to wonder at the 'bargain' one buys. Stephen Wandling From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Sat Aug 18, 2001 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating

I agree with Brent that you should space out your longitudinals with wedges and then let them pull in with the welding. Chines do not necessarily mean distortion though. Nekeyah is triple chined with chine tubes. To fit the chines to the frames, offsets were plotted on the ground and marked by pegs. The tubes were then run through a rolling machine which I made and which cold rolled the necessary bend into them. Each panel was plated in two lengths of plate. Once they were accurately fitted to the chines, some scraps of flat bar were lightly tacked on edge to the chines outside the plates. The butt welding was then done and the plates were allowed the necessarily shrinkage movement. Only after this were the plates tacked onto the chines. All outside welding was completed first to pull a bit of an outward bow into the plates. Welding was staggered , max. 3 inches at a time. This worked well and our hull is pretty fair with no filler needed at all. When the hull was complete, I removed all of the transverse frames ( keeping the floors and bulkheads ) as the designer confirmed that they are more for ease of construction than structural strength, and provide places where you can't paint properly and thus rust traps. It was all a lot easier than it sounds, just time consuming. Regards, Richard. From: WIJNANDA69@H...
Date: Mon Aug 20, 2001 2:50 am
Subject: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks

Replies Author Date 316 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs Doug Barnard Mon 8/20/2001 318 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs Pat Folk Mon 8/20/2001 341 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs rct_51@h... Fri 9/21/2001 343 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs brentswain38@h... Fri 9/21/2001 344 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs Stephen Wandling Fri 9/21/2001 347 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs brent swain Sat 9/22/2001 348 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs Richard Till Mon 9/24/2001 349 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs wade panzich Wed 9/26/2001 352 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs rct_51@h... Fri 9/28/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Mon Aug 20, 2001 4:12 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

Well, this isn't near Sacto, but in So. Cal, a great place to check out is Walt's RV in Fontana (out near San Bernardino). They're a surplus/used parts dealer for RV parts. They have good deals on stoves, and thousands of used windows. I got my surplus windows for my current boat, dual pane sliders about 30" X 20", for $35 each. ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe > -----Original Message----- > From: WIJNANDA69@H... [mailto:WIJNANDA69@H...] > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 6:50 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs > > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Mon Aug 20, 2001 4:12 pm
Subject: finding building locations

Any tips as to how to scrounge up a suitable location for a bit of shipbuilding? I'd like rent to be as cheap as possible (free?), so going with realtors or agents would preclude that. Weather isn't all that much of a factor, so an open stretch of field would be just fine. Obviously you can't ring the doorbell of a house that isn't there- how do you locate the owners? I'm also thinking about attaching wheels to the hull (temporarily, of course!) so that if I have to beat a hasty retreat, it won't be that much of a problem. Sometimes a "handshake" deal can suddenly go sour. There must be some sort of farm equipment thing that would do; any idea as to what a set of four wheels, with two steerable is called? Skeletal trailer? Hay hauler? ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 320 Re: finding building locations cdbarry@h... Thu 8/23/2001 321 Re: finding building locations brentswain38@h... Thu 8/23/2001
From: "Pat Folk" <pfolk@g...>
Date: Mon Aug 20, 2001 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

I posted earlier that I have a bunch of free steel if you want that. email me privately if your interested in it. But it will take a flatbed to haul it and a crane or large forklift to load it.

I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Wed Aug 22, 2001 6:54 am
Subject: Sequencing

I am trying to work out some sequencing issues that appear to be important to me. Several involve dealing with spaces that will be enclosed when the sandblasting/coating is done. The first involves the integral water tanks. These are intended to be built of mild steel and be cement wash coated on the inside. The tank bottom areas of the hull are presently covered with a mild rust. Can I just build the tanks on the rusty hull, cement coat them and consider that there will be no further corrosion because the surface will not be in contact with air? The other area is the fin keel. Can I assume the same thing here: That placing the ballast (lead), either in a melted form or set in pitch or resin, will seal out the air? Also there will be plates welded on top of the ballast area and I could add the oil as suggested by Brent Swain I believe. There is already surface rust inside the fin keel. There's lots of info out there, but some of these types of issues aren't dealt with. Maybe I should just go on common sense, but it can't hurt to ask. Cheers, Stephen Wandling From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: finding building locations

This is not quite to the subject,but you may want to look at modular construction and block outfitting. The idea (aside from the fact that modularization saves labor both in construction and outfit) is that you could build each module in a smaller space, then just get the big space to join up.

Replies Author Date 321 Re: finding building locations brentswain38@h... Thu 8/23/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:56 pm
Subject: Re: finding building locations

Modular construction doesn't work with origami construction as the plates used are 8ft by 36 ft or larger. One can do 1/3rd of the steel work in advance by building everything which can be built before doing the hull ( cleats, habdrails , hatches, rudder, stanchions mast and fittings,bow roller,bilge pumps, heater, thru hulls, valves, anchor winch, mast tabernacle, anchors , etc, scrounge ballast,wood, paint,sails, rigging ,engine, etc. That way once you get the shell together, it takes a fraction of the time to finish the boat.It also reduces the burnout rate. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > This is not quite to the subject,but you may want to look at modular > construction and block outfitting. The idea (aside from the fact > that modularization saves labor both in construction and outfit) is > that you could build each module in a smaller space, then just get > the big space to join up. From: "Ronald" <biese.ronald@w...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:44 am
Subject: Hallo all out there help needed

found this in the photo section... Bella Via of Comox 44' double-ended steel Swain junk double ended I'm looking for why, well living in France but all my friend in Norway and 44' should be as me 45 and my wife 44 exact the lenght we are looking for a oceangoing sailing home.......44 lod could be a nice low and fat and deep, means to me liveabord and sail so where to go...to get a plan as stell for me is the way to go building intelligent and not old fashioned whu not and junk sail....easy and singlehanded i like that please help Ronald

Replies Author Date 323 Re: Hallo all out there help needed Stephen Wandling Tue 8/28/2001 324 Re: Hallo all out there help needed brentswain38@h... Wed 8/29/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Tue Aug 28, 2001 4:43 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hallo all out there help needed

Ronald,
You can contact Brent Swain at           brentswain38@hotmail.com and I am sure he will be able to give you all of the information you need about building one of his designs.
Cheers,
Stephen Wandling
Ronald wrote:
found this in the photo section...
Bella Via of Comox
44' double-ended steel Swain junk
double ended I'm looking for
why, well living in France
but all my friend in Norway
and 44' should be as me 45 and my wife 44
exact the lenght we are looking for a oceangoing
sailing home.......44 lod could be a nice low
and fat and deep, means to me liveabord and sail
so where to go...to get a plan
as stell for me is the way to go
building intelligent and not old fashioned
whu not
and junk sail....easy and singlehanded i like that
please help
Ronald

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From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Aug 29, 2001 1:32 am
Subject: Re: Hallo all out there help needed

Try jackaranda@h... The boat belongs to Jack Carson. He bought a bare hull 36 footer and did some severe modifications. She is long and low, but narrow and not particularly deep. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Ronald" <biese.ronald@w...> wrote: > found this in the photo section... > > Bella Via of Comox > 44' double-ended steel Swain junk > > double ended I'm looking for > > why, well living in France > but all my friend in Norway > > and 44' should be as me 45 and my wife 44 > exact the lenght we are looking for a oceangoing > sailing home.......44 lod could be a nice low > and fat and deep, means to me liveabord and sail > > so where to go...to get a plan > > as stell for me is the way to go > building intelligent and not old fashioned > whu not > and junk sail....easy and singlehanded i like that > > please help > > Ronald From: brib@a...
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 3:09 am
Subject: interesting day

it's been a very interesting day reading the last 324 messages. I have been attracted to the idea of searching out the apparent freedom suggested by the single-handed sailing experiences of Joshua Slocum. I saw Brent Swain's boat construction on the website of the interior builder whose ethics were earlier (albeit falsely) in question, while fascinated by the metal boat building and Spray copies of Bruce Roberts. It wasn't until I found the magic look-up word, origami, that I came upon this group. The rough and ready product shown in the photos of Brent's 31 footer, and the wilderness setting of the construction of one of the boats, have me convinced that a budget conscious builder has no real alternative to turn out a solid and safe boat. The spirit of Slocum is alive and well in the no nonsense, solidly sensible approach to boats and sailing evinced by Brent Swain's techniques and execution. This is the closest thing I've seen to the situation offered to Slocum when he was kicking about before rebuilding the Spray. I want to know if an apartment dweller such as myself can put together a plan to build one of these boats. It looks like a game plan detailing materials and tools, labour requirements, a determination of cost to produce an enclosed hull with a three coat tar epoxied, foam insulated, and latex painted interior within the shortest period of time, is the first major hurdle. I'll be sending a check shortly for Brent's book. I'm curious to know why Brent has settled on the 31 footer when so many seem to think bigger is better. Congratulations on a great discussion group. Brian

Replies Author Date 327 Re: interesting day Doug Barnard Sun 9/9/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 5:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] interesting day

Hello Brian, Welcome to the discussion and thanks for starting a new thread in the currently quiet halls of origamiboats group! Well, your last question about size was an excellent one, and I'll respond with my reflections, gathered from conversations with Brent in the past since I have had very similar thoughts. The going theme these days seems to be, "bigger is better", but in my view the closer your boat is to being a "ship", the more energy and money it will take to build and maintain, and the less independent the sailor is, thus negating the real reason for undertaking the project in the first place. Slocum avoided the complication trap with Spray, which was considered at that time a "micro-ship" compared to the usual world-sailing boats of the time. Whereas painting the hull of a 31 or 36 foot hull in an afternoon can be a relatively simple and sane (maybe even pleasurable?) process, the painting of a 50 foot hull is a real "job" and much less of a casual affair. Relating things to "human scale" helps keep things in perspective for me: According to Brent's and others' experiences, the 36 foot half-shell hull plates appear to be the upper limit that two people working together can rock back and forth and manouver into place by themselves. Beyond this size, one is going to need specialized equipment suited to the task. Some people may have suitable equipment, but most don't. I know that pulling the hull together is only a one-time thing, but one can use this as a frame of reference for future activities with the boat too, such as haul-outs, maintenance and handling the boat at dock or at sea. I liked your comparison of what this boatbuilding process offers with Slocum's spirit. I think that puts it all into a nutshell: build it, and go! Alex (moderator) From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 6:18 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] interesting day

> -----Original Message----- > From: brib@a... [mailto:brib@a...] <snip> > I want to know if an apartment dweller such as myself can put > together a plan to build one of these boats. It looks like a game > plan detailing materials and tools, labour requirements, a > determination of cost to produce an enclosed hull with a three coat > tar epoxied, foam insulated, and latex painted interior within the > shortest period of time, is the first major hurdle. I'll be sending > a check shortly for Brent's book. Currently, the primary problem that I'm finding is the ability to locate a building site. The local homeowner's assn. is starting to give me grief over re-building a 20-footer, they'd for sure flip over a start-from-scratch project! The idea of getting halfway through and getting evicted has me scared, but I don't want to rent some huge, high-dollar commercial space to get this done. Being in the L.A. area doesn't help matters much, either. Wheel-abraded pre-primed steel in So. Cal. is also a problem. You boys up in the Northwest have all the good suppliers! > I'm curious to know why Brent has settled on the 31 footer when so > many seem to think bigger is better. Congratulations on a great > discussion group. Brian I'm looking to modify a traditional 48' full-displacement trawler design to origami methods. I've just finished a major design rev, and have made the otherwise all-business design into something more sexy and streamlined. I'm working the boat up in a 3D package- if anyone wants to comment, I have an .avi of a complete flyaround. Or I can send stills... Be careful about being too time-conscious, as if you aren't totally into the process, you can make dreadful mistakes or burn out. Maybe start with the ship's dingy, to get your chops down? Brent talks about building sub-systems first, so that they can be attached to the hull when it's done. Fortune favors the brave! DB From: brib@a...
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 8:10 pm
Subject: picking up the thread

I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building program As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft. Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one out could flesh out the problems with each step. Buy the plans from Brent. Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and delivered to a building site. Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator. Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior Buy diesel engine. Outfit inside and out. The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until finished needs to be dealt with at every stage. I would like to identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken , and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for a construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities at a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland? The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job correctly, and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc. Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a time line for the project. I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin keels. I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to be welded. What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature and humidity sensitive. How has this influenced the building schedules in coastal BC?

Replies Author Date 329 Re: picking up the thread Stephen Wandling Sun 9/9/2001 331 Re: picking up the thread pvanderw@o... Wed 9/12/2001 337 Re: picking up the thread brentswain38@h... Tue 9/18/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2001 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] picking up the thread

I'm a construction Project Manager, so I understand your desire to have a plan before getting too far into a boat building project. I am currently finishing a steel hull (not origami, unfortunately) and have put some effort into developing a plan. I will insert my comments in your plan below:
brib@axion.net wrote:
I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to
clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building
program
As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even
though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused
that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would
have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a
clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft.
Brent seems to have done a lot of his cruising as a singlehander. Crew size will be a requirement for selecting a boat size.
Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to
assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one out
could flesh out the problems with each step.
First I would recommend buying Brent's book, if you haven't already done so.
Next might be site selection. A very desirable feature is having 220VAC with 50 Amps to power the welder.
Buy the plans from Brent.
Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and
delivered to a building site.
You might move this down a few steps, after you get your tools and welder lined up.
Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator.
With 220VAC with 50 Amps to power the welder, you save a lot of bucks and noise without the generator.
Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior
I don't have pre-primed steel so I have to interject sandblasting here and will have the same crews do the epoxy coating at it needs to go on within about 4 hours of achieving bare steel. It's recommended to put on one coat of your paint of choice over the last coat of epoxy, before the epoxy is completely cured. (It can be done later.)
After the epoxy coating you will affix firring strips and bulkheads for the attachment of the interior. Then, it is common to have the hull insulated with urethane foam insulation.
At this stage the boat is capable of sitting in the weather, either on land or in the water, for an indefinite period, if required.
Buy diesel engine.
I thought you were building a sailboat?!!? Just joking. I am one of those insane types that is building a boat without an engine. You will need the engine's mounting specs to enable properly building the engine mounts and associated shaft alignment.
Outfit inside and out.
With the bulkheads and firring strips, the interior is pretty straight forward. It's thinking ahead to all of the things that require cutting and welding in the hull, deck or cabin that have given me problems. You basically want all welding and cutting complete before you apply the epoxy coating. Like tanks, thru-hulls, portholes, cleats, stanchions, handrails, and the list goes on and on.
The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until
finished needs to be dealt with at every stage. I would like to
identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken ,
and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for a
construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities at
a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland?
My boat is now 'on the hard' in Richmond and I pay $150/month, but don't have access to 220VAC with 50 Amps to power the welder. My understanding is that when building in a residential area, it is often difficult to get a permit for a 'boat shed' but apparently you can build a boat "in the open" with no permit, at least in some municipalities.
The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job correctly,
and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind
of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc.
Most of these issues are well covered in Brent's book.
Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a time
line for the project.
I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without
a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin
keels. I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to be
welded.
It's in the book. The simplicity of this method is the brilliance that Brent is bringing to the process of building steel boats.
What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature
and humidity sensitive. How has this influenced the building
schedules in coastal BC?
There are temperature and humidity criteria for epoxy coating, but I am informed that this work proceeds year round in the lower mainland. You might have to wait a bit if you get a cold spell.
I will be watching this thread, because I still have issues that I haven't yet worked out.
Good luck.
Stephen From: darryl_marlene@h...
Date: Mon Sep 10, 2001 5:34 am
Subject: Finishing hull #1 from CCBB

Hi everyone I read with interest most of the letters today. I`m in Nanaimo working on my 36 foot pilothouse . I hope to foam it Friday. If I can answer any questions on the benifits of having Confidence Custom Boat Building build your boat let me know. They did a great job on mine. If youre in my area I`ll gladly give you a boat tour. Darryl From: pvanderw@o...
Date: Wed Sep 12, 2001 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: picking up the thread

> As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world.. To get a feel for size, read the books by the Hiscocks and the Pardeys. The Hiscocks finally went to a larger steel boat which they had modified when 1/2 way around the world, as I remember. There once was a general notion, perhaps because of the Hiscocks, that the right size of boat for a couple was a little short of 30'. A larger boat required too much strength to handle the sails and too much maintenance. Equipment is better today on both accounts, but it is still a point to ponder. When you are getting down to a choice of a couple boats, ask the designer(s) pointed questions about the load carrying capacity, and do the math with rigorous honesty about what you expect to take and what you need in terms of consumable supplies. Capacity is more important that length, as a criterion. Peter From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:07 am
Subject: Size and other issues

First, length is not the only measure of size, and certainly not cost or difficulty of construction. Increased size can make construction easier because spaces aren;t as tight. Setting principle dimensions is often the most difficult aspect of design and requires a great deal of thought and analysis. Commercial naval architects often do a series of "point designs" systematically varying dimensions to settle on the final parameters, but this decision is far and away the most important one and not to be taken lightly. Second, I can't say enough about the avantages of advanced/block outfit. Mr. Swain's notion of building systems complete prior to hull construction is a good approach to this. In fact it is possible to build substantial parts of the interior prior to hull construction, and then just load it in through the top of the steel hull (this is called "blue sky advanced outfitting"). The late Dale Calkins did a paper on advanced outfitting for small vessels that was in Journal of Ship Production a few years ago and Oetter, Duffty, Welter and myself published a paper at this year's Ship Production Symposium on advanced outfitting whole panels prior to joining them. Though this technique was based on developable panels, it should be adaptable to origami panels as well, with a little thought.

Replies Author Date 333 Re: Size and other issues Doug Barnard Fri 9/14/2001 336 Re: Size and other issues cdbarry@h... Tue 9/18/2001 339 Re: Size and other issues cdbarry@h... Wed 9/19/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:24 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Size and other issues

> -----Original Message----- > From: cdbarry@h... [mailto:cdbarry@h...] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:08 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Size and other issues > > > First, length is not the only measure of size, and certainly not cost > or difficulty of construction. Increased size can make construction > easier because spaces aren;t as tight. Setting principle dimensions > is often the most difficult aspect of design and requires a great > deal of thought and analysis. Commercial naval architects often do a > series of "point designs" systematically varying dimensions to settle > on the final parameters, but this decision is far and away the most > important one and not to be taken lightly. One point that wasn't brought up is market value. Adding a few extra feet when building is no big deal, but it can add thousands to the value of the finished boat. An under-30-foot boat sounds like an oddity, but on boats closer to 40', it sounds like a wise choice. As you're designing, it's always wise to imagine what the next owner might desire, and adjust your own preferences accordingly. > Second, I can't say enough about the avantages of advanced/block > outfit. Mr. Swain's notion of building systems complete prior to > hull construction is a good approach to this. In fact it is possible > to build substantial parts of the interior prior to hull > construction, and then just load it in through the top of the steel > hull (this is called "blue sky advanced outfitting"). The late Dale > Calkins did a paper on advanced outfitting for small vessels that was > in Journal of Ship Production a few years ago and Oetter, Duffty, > Welter and myself published a paper at this year's Ship Production > Symposium on advanced outfitting whole panels prior to joining them. > Though this technique was based on developable panels, it should be > adaptable to origami panels as well, with a little thought. I've finally got around to ordering a book that C.D. recommended, "Ship Production". It should be here by the weekend. I really like this idea about modular production. Trying to drag sheets of paneling down a narrow companionway doesn't sound like much fun. Though for those trying to build without the help of a shipyard, wouldn't the necessity of having a crane/gantry system outweigh the benefits? Also, what about areas in midspan of the seams? Might the steel not quite form according to computer predictions, and really throw off your developed bulkheads/soles? In answer to my own question, I can see that if you installed (dare I say it? :)) transverse frames at key points, where walls and floors hit, then matched up collars on the interior, that would be a handy thing. The way my design is working, it's turning into 3 long strips per side, instead of the "split orange peel" look of a pure Swain origami. It'd be much easier to take the offsets for the interior on a design of this type. I did a brief search for the articles that were mentioned above, but had no joy. Are there reprints available? ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 336 Re: Size and other issues cdbarry@h... Tue 9/18/2001 339 Re: Size and other issues cdbarry@h... Wed 9/19/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Sep 14, 2001 8:09 pm
Subject: modular drop-ins

Due to the nature of the building technique, I think the shape of the Swain hull interior can vary a little beyond predictable parameters until you've fully fixed the deck on, so it might make it hard to prefab bulk-heads, which would have to be custom fit. Mind you, there are not that many bulkheads in a 36 foot boat, or boats on either side of that size range, right? But there is still a lot of stuff which can be pre-fabbed before the boat is even built, or during. It would be interesting to know if modular units have been done with deck off, however, as maybe I am wrong on that count. Anyone have any experience on this? Alex (moderator) From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Mon Sep 17, 2001 9:12 pm
Subject: Vancouver BC Building Site?

I have recently purchased a 35' Roberts steel hull that is lying at a yard without 220 VAC - 50 Amp power. The hull is and empty shell and I had intended on hiring a welder with a portable rig to complete the required work, but the failure of a construction Project Management contract to materialize is forcing me to consider other options. I am now considering moving the boat to a location with suitable power and buying a used stick welder and completing the welding myself. If anyone knows of a location with 220 VAC - 50 Amp power that is economical and/or is amenable to some form of barter, I would be very interested. The ideal location would be in the Greater Vancouver/Lower Mainland area. I can be reached at 604-649-1418 Thanks From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:09 am
Subject: Re: Size and other issues

> I did a brief search for the articles that were mentioned above, but had no > joy. Are there reprints available? www.sname.org

Replies Author Date 339 Re: Size and other issues cdbarry@h... Wed 9/19/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2001 8:41 pm
Subject: Re: picking up the thread

The two halves are lined up at the bow and two points on the stem a measured distance down from the stem, near the waterline are tacked. The rest of the centreline is then pulled together with comealongs and tacked inside and out wherever possible, as you go. As you get to the weight bearing portion of the centre of the boat it gets more difficult. Jacking up the chines helps, as does rocking the hull back , pulling together the part which has lifted off the ground then rocking the boat foreward onto the tacked together part and continueing. To stop the plates from overriding one another at the stern it's neccessary to tack a piece of flat bar to the centreline on each of the halves to prevent the override . They can be broken off after the centreline is together. We try to do our epoxy painting in the summer. If you've got your steel work completed and it's winter, you can still make progress by pre fabricating the interior. Having the plate still in the primer stage lets you weld your interior attachment tabs where you need them.Tabs the size of your hand are just as good for attaching interiors as transverse frames and are less time consuming and less of a liability if you hit a reef. When painting weather arrives you remove your interior parts , putting the bigger ones under the cockpit while you paint up foreward. Then you move them foreward while you paint aft. I just received a copy of the metal boat quarterly from the metal boat society. They mention a place in Hadlock Washington which has surplus devoe bar rust 235 epoxy for $50 US for a 5 gallon pail. The same pail in Canada is $350 CDN.I've been told that they also have a lot of primers and antifouling, cheap. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., brib@a... wrote: > I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to > clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building > program > As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even > though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused > that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would > have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a > clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft. > Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to > assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one out > could flesh out the problems with each step. > Buy the plans from Brent. > Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and > delivered to a building site. > Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator. > Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior > Buy diesel engine. > Outfit inside and out. > The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until > finished needs to be dealt with at every stage. I would like to > identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken , > and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for a > construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities at > a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland? > The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job correctly, > and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind > of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc. > Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a time > line for the project. > I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without > a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin > keels. I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to be > welded. What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature > and humidity sensitive. How has this influenced the building > schedules in coastal BC? From: "Richard Till" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Tue Sep 18, 2001 11:03 pm
Subject: Re: Surplus paint

I have been in touch with D&R Surplus in Port Hadlock. They are presently out of Ameron Devoe Bar-rust 235. They have limited stock of another 2 part epoxy at the moment. Looks like the painting season on the BC coast may be over for this year anyway? Busy with detail work and dumpster diving for more stainless pipe. rt

RT

>From: brentswain38@hotmail.com
>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: picking up the thread
>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:41:18 -0000
>
> The two halves are lined up at the bow and two points on the stem a
>measured distance down from the stem, near the waterline are tacked.
>The rest of the centreline is then pulled together with comealongs and
>tacked inside and out wherever possible, as you go. As you get to the
>weight bearing portion of the centre of the boat it gets more
>difficult. Jacking up the chines helps, as does rocking the hull back
>, pulling together the part which has lifted off the ground then
>rocking the boat foreward onto the tacked together part and
>continueing. To stop the plates from overriding one another at the
>stern it's neccessary to tack a piece of flat bar to the centreline on
>each of the halves to prevent the override . They can be broken off
>after the centreline is together.
> We try to do our epoxy painting in the summer. If you've got your
>steel work completed and it's winter, you can still make progress by
>pre fabricating the interior. Having the plate still in the primer
>stage lets you weld your interior attachment tabs where you need
>them.Tabs the size of your hand are just as good for attaching
>interiors as transverse frames and are less time consuming and less of
>a liability if you hit a reef. When painting weather arrives you
>remove your interior parts , putting the bigger ones under the cockpit
>while you paint up foreward. Then you move them foreward while you
>paint aft.
>
> I just received a copy of the metal boat quarterly from the metal
>boat society. They mention a place in Hadlock Washington which has
>surplus devoe bar rust 235 epoxy for $50 US for a 5 gallon pail. The
>same pail in Canada is $350 CDN.I've been told that they also have a
>lot of primers and antifouling, cheap.
> Brent Swain
>
>
>--- In origamiboats@y..., brib@a... wrote:
> > I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to
> > clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building
> > program
> > As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even
> > though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused
> > that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would
> > have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a
> > clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft.
> > Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to
> > assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one
>out
> > could flesh out the problems with each step.
> > Buy the plans from Brent.
> > Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and
> > delivered to a building site.
> > Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator.
> > Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior
> > Buy diesel engine.
> > Outfit inside and out.
> > The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until
> > finished needs to be dealt with at every stage. I would like to
> > identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken ,
> > and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for a
> > construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities
>at
> > a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland?
> > The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job
>correctly,
> > and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind
> > of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc.
> > Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a time
> > line for the project.
> > I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without
> > a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin
> > keels. I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to
>be
> > welded. What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature
> > and humidity sensitive. How has this influenced the building
> > schedules in coastal BC?
>

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Replies Author Date 340 Re: Surplus paint robertgm77@e... Thu 9/20/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Wed Sep 19, 2001 1:00 pm
Subject: Re: Size and other issues

--- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > > I did a brief search for the articles that were mentioned above, > but had no > > joy. Are there reprints available? > > www.sname.org Also www.nsnet.com, then look under the documentation center. From: robertgm77@e...
Date: Thu Sep 20, 2001 4:10 pm
Subject: Re: Surplus paint

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Richard Till" <rct_51@h...> wrote: >Look for expoxy paint from the industrial suppliers such as people who paint oil tanks at refineries.It is cheap but will be basic colors. From: rct_51@h...
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 12:30 am
Subject: Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks

Replies Author Date 343 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs brentswain38@h... Fri 9/21/2001
From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 3:08 pm
Subject: Society of Boat and Yacht Designers Meeting

To all SBYD members and friends, The second meeting of the SBYD, Chesapeake Chapter for this year will be held in the Dodson House conference room of the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum, 6 October 2001. We will be meeting during the Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival, which is held every year during the first weekend in October at the CBMM. Mr. J.B. Currell of MAAS Plastics will share his thoughts on wood/epoxy construction and fiber reinforced epoxy composites. The meeting will begin around 1000 hrs. and should end around 1400 hrs. After the meeting attendees are encouraged to visit the MASCF on the museum grounds. Copies of the minutes from the previous meeting will be available for review and approval at the meeting (if not before via e-mail). See the included map below for location. Respectfully, Nathan R. Fuller, Jr. Secretary, SBYD Chesapeake Chapter phone: 1-703-532-0044 e-mail: 73314.104@c... postal: 6444 Queen Anne Terrace, Falls Church, Va. 22044-1417 USA -------------------- | St. Michaels, MD | -------------------- -----* . / | . / /| . /h/ | . /t/ . /r/ |R| . /o/ |t| . /N/ | | Watkins Lane . |3|============================= . |3| . . . . | | . Dodson Ave. | | . Foggs ===================| | . Cove | | | | . | | |T| . North | | St. |a| . ========| |========|l| ------ |F| |b| Mill St. | | |r| |o|================================| | |e| |t| |C| . . | | |m| | | |e| . . | | |o| | | |d| . . | CBMM | |n| | | |a| . . | | Railroad|t| Ave. | |Cherry St|r| . . (1) | | ========| |========| |====================>=<=========| | |S| *----| | |L| . .(2) | | |t| | M | | |o| . . . ------ | | |A a | |-------- |c| . | | |c r | | Police | |u| . | | |m k | |-------- |s| . | | |e e | | |t| . | | | t | | | | . | | *----| | (3) |S| . | |========| |============|t|=========== . Harbor | | | |Carpenter St| | /n/ . . | |---- | | | | /e/ . | | P | | | | | /e/ . | | a | | | | | /r/ t . | | r | | | Willow St. | |/G/ S . | | k |===| |============| | / . | | i | | | | | . | | n | | | | | . | | g | | | | | . | |---- | | | | . Canton | | Alley | | | | . ========| |========| |============| | . To | |------- | | . Route | | Post | | | . 50 | |Office | | | . | | |------- | | . \|/ | | | | Mulberry St. . | |====================================== Note - (1) Dodson House (2) Crab Claw Restaurant (3) Carpenter Street Saloon (c) 1997 N.R. Fuller, Jr. also see www.sbyd.org From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 7:16 pm
Subject: Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

For the leading edge of a fin keel, if you use sch 40 you'd be wise to double it up. Even with lead poured behind it sch 40 will dent if you hit a reef at full speed . Sch 80 (1/2 inch wall thickness)doesn't dent no matter how hard you hit. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., rct_51@h... wrote: > For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters > Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have > the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is > of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area > and > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

Brent,
I am trying to adapt some of the design details from your excellent book into the Roberts I am completing. I am removing the skeg/spade rudder assembly and installing a low aspect skeg with an outboard rudder. It's hard to determine some of the required detail from your book and I am wondering if I might benefit from buying a set of plans, if they contain the additional detail.
For example, do you recommend sch 80 pipe as the leading edge of the skeg? What diameter (it looks to be about 1 1/2" in the picture?)? The upper portion of the pipe looks to extend maybe 18" above the skeg. Is it intended to insert all of this into the hull, and if so, how is it dealt with on the inside (gussets, etc)? Is the skeg plated with 3/16"? The max width of the skeg at the hull connection appears to be maybe 3 1/2", is this about right or is more better (I know more is stronger, but I am assuming that if the skeg is too 'fat' it might reduce performance)?
I could ask similar questions about the anchor winch, rudder, etc. Would a set of plans for one of your boats contain the detail that I am looking for?
Thanks for all of your help Brent.
Stephen

brentswain38@hotmail.com wrote:
For the leading edge of a fin keel, if you use sch 40 you'd be wise to
double it up. Even with lead poured behind it sch 40 will dent if you
hit a reef at full speed . Sch 80 (1/2 inch wall thickness)doesn't
dent no matter how hard you hit.
                                           Brent Swain
--- In origamiboats@y..., rct_51@h... wrote:
> For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters
> Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have
> the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is
> of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt
>
>
>
> --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:
> > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area
> and
> > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for
> > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of
> > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used
> > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,
> > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks

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From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 8:59 pm
Subject: photo of Swain 36 being trailered

If anyone was ever curious how the twin keeled Swain hulls are best transported by road, I'd suggest having a look at these photos, which show what I surmise to be a 36 footer in transit by Don's Transport of Victoria, BC. The trailer is basically a low-deck flat deck, and the hull is well strapped down.

These are "spy" shots, taken several days ago with digital camera through the windshield of my Van at 70 Kilometres/hr, so might be a little fuzzy!

I'll put these photos in the group's photo section for those who only recieve daily digests which don't have attachments.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

Attachment swain-trailer2.jpg
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 41k Download

Attachment swain-trailer1.jpg
Type: application/octet-stream
Size: 18k Download

Replies Author Date 346 Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered Alex Christie Fri 9/21/2001 350 Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered evanmoonjunk@y... Wed 9/26/2001 351 Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered brent swain Thu 9/27/2001 367 Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered evanmoonjunk@y... Sat 10/13/2001 368 Interesting experiment with UHMW plastic rct_51@h... Wed 10/24/2001
From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2001 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered

I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni. Anyone know the owner? Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, but has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a well. There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in the manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale. Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 350 Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered evanmoonjunk@y... Wed 9/26/2001
From: "brent swain" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2001 8:55 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

ABC salvage just off SE marine drive in Burnaby has always been a great souce of scrap. They mangle the hell out of everything, but they always have lots of stuff.

                                                                                          Brent Swain

>From: rct_51@hotmail.com
>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs
>Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:30:29 -0000
>
>For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters
>Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have
>the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is
>of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt
>
>
>
>--- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:
> > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area
>and
> > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for
> > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of
> > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used
> > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,
> > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks
>

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From: "Richard Till" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Mon Sep 24, 2001 8:29 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

Brent, I agree. On closer examination, i did order Sch. 80, 6". This should match the 1/2" sole plate in wall thickness. Just measured it to make sure and it all matches up. rt
RT

>From: brentswain38@hotmail.com
>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs
>Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:16:11 -0000
>
>For the leading edge of a fin keel, if you use sch 40 you'd be wise to
>double it up. Even with lead poured behind it sch 40 will dent if you
>hit a reef at full speed . Sch 80 (1/2 inch wall thickness)doesn't
>dent no matter how hard you hit.
> Brent Swain
>
>--- In origamiboats@y..., rct_51@h... wrote:
> > For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters
> > Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have
> > the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is
> > of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:
> > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area
> > and
> > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for
> > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of
> > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used
> > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,
> > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks
>

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From: wade panzich <wadepanzich@y...>
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 9:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

Whats up sucka, I hope all is going well for you down there just wanted to say hello and wish you luck with everything, got my engine done I just need to put it in, I cant find anyone to help me, everyone is gone. All is great here, the weather has been good and saw some lights last night. Keep in touch I may be down there sometime I will keep you posted, Aloha bro Wade--- WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to > Sacremento Ca.area and > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to > scrounge for > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The > names/locations of > places where I can get anything from steel tubing > for trim to used > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine > Exchange, Popeye's, > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit > helps. Thanks > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 352 Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs rct_51@h... Fri 9/28/2001
From: evanmoonjunk@y...
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2001 11:43 pm
Subject: Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni. > Anyone know the owner? > Hi Alex, yes this is a boat that I pulled together about ten years ago in Port Alberni. The owner is Toni Janske(spelling unsure} He wanted a boat just under 30' so he could ship it to Europe on a freighter and also wanted a flush deck for max. interior space. We put in an outboard well cause he did not want to use interior space for an inboard. He seems to be happy with the boat but it has been several years since I talked to him. Apparently he trucked the boat over to Nanaimo so he would not have to sail around. Probably does not have a whole lot of time off....Evan > Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, but > has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a well. > There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in the > manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale. > > Alex Christie > (moderator) From: "brent swain" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:46 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered

Evan I just had a look at Rob's boat in Cortenay. Nice workmanship. While I was comming home from Tonga, I found that the intake thru hull on my head was comming out of the water when the boat heeled in gusts and I had to wait for the lulls and pump like hell to get rinse water into the head before the next gus came. I've since moved the intake much closer to the centreline.Bill Lornie had to move the intake for his exhaust cooling almost all the way to the centreline to stop it from sucking air when he heeled or was in rough water. Rob's head intakes would have been out of the water anytime the boat heeled more than ten degrees. When offshore cruising , you can be heeled 25 degrees for weeks on end. I told him to move them nearer the centreline. Lately I've been putting in a stainless doughnut around the exhaust outlet , flush with the hull plate,as the heat from the exhaust burns the hull paint around the exhaust thru hull and you get a serious corrosion problem there after a few years, even with a wet exhaust . The aft keel stifners should be tied together with an angle iron floor of heavy angle (3 inch by 3 inch by 1/2 inch),triangulating the trailing edges of the keels with the centreline , otherwise a hard collision with a rock will drive the trailing edge of the keel up into the hull a couple of inches . I learned this the hard way, and had to jack the keel down with a hydraulic jack before welding in the angle iron floor. I just missed you here in Comox by a couple of days according to Karl.I may be through Nanaimo tomorrow some time. Brent Swain >From: evanmoonjunk@y... >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:43:23 -0000 > >--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > > I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni. > > Anyone know the owner? > > Hi Alex, yes this is a boat that I pulled together about ten years >ago in Port Alberni. The owner is Toni Janske(spelling unsure} He >wanted a boat just under 30' so he could ship it to Europe on a >freighter and also wanted a flush deck for max. interior space. We >put in an outboard well cause he did not want to use interior space >for an inboard. He seems to be happy with the boat but it has been >several years since I talked to him. Apparently he trucked the boat >over to Nanaimo so he would not have to sail around. Probably does >not have a whole lot of time off....Evan > > Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, >but > > has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a >well. > > There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in >the > > manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale. > > > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Replies Author Date 367 Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered evanmoonjunk@y... Sat 10/13/2001 368 Interesting experiment with UHMW plastic rct_51@h... Wed 10/24/2001
From: rct_51@h...
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2001 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

Another place to check: Mariners Xchange, 12220, 2nd Ave Steveston, Richmond BC. Phone (604)271-2284. On another topic: Over time, I have developed a very low tolerance to diesel fumes of any kind. Can anyone comment on effectiveness and efficiency of an outboard. I have seen them rigged in wells, brackets on rudders etc. I notice that, in general, wells seem to circulate fumes back into the cockpit. I have a Honda on my CAL 25 right now--it runs like a clock under most conditions. An x US Coast Gaurd officer (tourist) asked to see the construction of the (36')steel boat the other day and commented that a 10 hp Yamaha high thrust outboard (when compared to an inboard) delivers the equivalent of 35 hp at the prop? Brainstorming--any thoughts would be welcome. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., wade panzich <wadepanzich@y...> wrote: > Whats up sucka, I hope all is going well for you > down there just wanted to say hello and wish you luck > with everything, got my engine done I just need to put > it in, I cant find anyone to help me, everyone is > gone. All is great here, the weather has been good and > saw some lights last night. Keep in touch I may be > down there sometime I will keep you posted, Aloha bro > Wade--- WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to > > Sacremento Ca.area and > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to > > scrounge for > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The > > names/locations of > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing > > for trim to used > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine > > Exchange, Popeye's, > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit > > helps. Thanks > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From: "Dale J. Robertson" <dale@n...>
Date: Fri Sep 28, 2001 9:29 pm
Subject: Looking for a yard to build a hull

Is anyone aware of a steel boatbuilder on the east coast (preferably in the D.C. -Annapolis area) TIA Dale J. Robertson From: "John P Barker" <res0b38h@v...>
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2001 6:59 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

----- Original Message -----

From: rct_51@hotmail.com

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:14 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

An x US Coast Gaurd officer (tourist) asked to see the construction of the (36')steel boat the other day and commented that a 10 hp Yamaha high thrust outboard (when compared to an inboard) delivers the equivalent of 35 hp at the prop?

I was going to say something very rude about our CG but I will limit my self to saying NO WAY!!!

It will push your boat but lacks the power to stop it quickly. Another thing to think about is your electric generation requirements out board motors are usually week in this department.

John

John
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2001 8:18 pm
Subject: Outboards for motive power

People will almost universally agree that a nice slow turning diesel with properly matched propellor and reduction gear are a nice way to go. But if you can't afford such an installation, there are some remarkable new outboard products out there which will suffice, and then some. My thoughts on outboard motors, having used them on a heavy boat in a pinch, then finding them to work remarkably well:

I think it works better than people will admit, but it is important to recognize that not all outboards are equal.

My Honda 7.5 hp did sterling service with a special aftermarket low-pitched "elebhant ear" prop, which I used in tandem with a 15 hp Suzuki 15 hp with low pitch prop. The Honda alone could push the boat fine in calm, the two together were needed in chop or headwind.

My recent forays to the Honda dealer in Campbell River revealed that they now have a high-thrust version in their outboard lines which have 2:1 reduction gears in their hubs, similar to the Yamaha line, and very large "lobed" propellors. Starting with a machine like this will at least give you the most possible thrust out of a given engine.

It is true that the ability to back up quickly was hampered, but I soon developed a fail-safe strategy: I would simply back in slowly to the slip, saving the powerful forward thrust for stopping the boat, which it did rather smartly. My two regular outboards were very good at this, and I can bet that a proper 2:1 hub outboard with lobed prop would be even better.

It may be possible that actual measurement of pulling power ("bollard pull") of a Honda or Yamaha high-thrust 2:1 hub outboard could be equivalent to a 35 hp with regular high speed prop, since the 35's prop would be slipping alot while trying to move a heavy weight from a stand-still. But a 35 hp with low-pitch pulling prop might beat it by some degree. It is the 2:1 reduction in the high-thrust motors which makes all the difference, and this coupled with a proper pulling prop can present quite a formidable force. It should in theory double the pulling power of the 10 hp.

Nothing beats going out there and trying it out, and I was as surprised as anyone to feel the "muscle" of my puny 7.5 Honda accellerating my heavy 36 footer from full stop to a reasonable cruising speed in short order. It is all in the pitching of the prop, the size of the prop blades, and ideally the gearing of the hub (which, though I did not have, would have only been an improvement.).

Say: as an experiment, if someone in my area has a 10 hp high-thrust, then put it on a boat and bring it over to my place where I have a Honda 35 on a runabout, and we'll have a tug of war to see which can pull the best!

As for electricity generation, perhaps the new Honda generator line which has come out might work. They are very small, but very efficient of fuel with high output.

Regards,

Alex Christie

(moderator)

Replies Author Date 365 Re: Outboards for motive power cdbarry@h... Mon 10/8/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sat Sep 29, 2001 8:22 pm
Subject: electric drive

Electric drive may be an option worth considering, as you can use the same motor to generate electricity while under sail. It can work both ways in an on-off mode, according to the literature for the Electric Wheel (Solomon Technologies). This means while you are motorsailing the drive can be pushing you up a wave, but generating electricity going down a wave, or when sail power overtakes the drive in terms of thrust transmitting to the hull.

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/ offers the Electric Wheel

Alex Christie

(moderator)

Replies Author Date 357 Re: electric drive Richard Payne Sun 9/30/2001 358 Re: electric drive Alex & Kim Christie Sun 9/30/2001 359 Re: electric drive and outboards rct_51@h... Mon 10/1/2001
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2001 10:40 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric drive

I had an electric vehicle for some time - it was a little Mazda van with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized scr speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The best thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly free! Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The life of the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest you give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of cycles and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds good it is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery technology, which is a real pity. Regards, Richard Payne. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] electric drive

I guess the other hope is the promising developments in the Ballard Fuel cells, which could provide a clean, vibration-free source of energy. I note also on the www.solomontechnologies.com website that most installations have a Panda 4kw generator for recharging. While this may be a step backward to internal combustion technology, it does allow one to isolate sound and vibration with a machine which should have long life. With a generator, solar panels, wind turbines, and drag generation through the prop, you could certainly have a crack at saving enough fuel to pay for the unit over its lifetime, or at least make the battery replacement issue a little less harsh. Alex Christie (moderator) > I had an electric vehicle for some time - it was a little Mazda van > with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized scr > speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The best > thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly free! > Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The life of > the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest you > give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of cycles > and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds good it > is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery > technology, which is a real pity. > Regards, > Richard Payne. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

Replies Author Date 359 Re: electric drive and outboards rct_51@h... Mon 10/1/2001
From: rct_51@h...
Date: Mon Oct 1, 2001 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: electric drive and outboards

Thank you for the brainstorming. Solomon technologies has an impressive solution, albeit with an expensive capital outlay. I once towed a large Grand Banks from Vancouver Bay to Egmont with a 10hp outboard on a skiff against the wind. They had run out of diesel and the wind was pushing them up on the rocks. Also towed a dive boat (out of fuel) from Spanish banks to Burrard Civic with the 7.5 Honda on my Cal 25. This seems to indicate that the thrust can do the job. Tug-o-war would qive a quantifiable result. The weakness appears to be in attaching the motor to the hull. An inboard has more structural integrity in so many ways. Still thinking, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > I guess the other hope is the promising developments in the Ballard Fuel > cells, which could provide a clean, vibration-free source of energy. > > I note also on the www.solomontechnologies.com website that most > installations have a Panda 4kw generator for recharging. While this may be > a step backward to internal combustion technology, it does allow one to > isolate sound and vibration with a machine which should have long life. > > With a generator, solar panels, wind turbines, and drag generation through > the prop, you could certainly have a crack at saving enough fuel to pay for > the unit over its lifetime, or at least make the battery replacement issue a > little less harsh. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > > I had an electric vehicle for some time - it was a little Mazda van > > with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized scr > > speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The best > > thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly free! > > Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The life of > > the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest you > > give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of cycles > > and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds good it > > is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery > > technology, which is a real pity. > > Regards, > > Richard Payne. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From: fprice@i...
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 5:32 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: electric drive and outboards

Hello Guys There has been a recent article in "Cruising World" magazine detailing the setup of an outboard on the quarter of an Alberg 30 yacht. Thie setup detailed was way the best solution to using an outboard that I've ever seen, enabling the engine to be postioned so that the quarter wave didn't drown it, and that following seas also had "less of a chance" of killing it. In the up position it was right up at the rail out of the way except maybe if you were lying alongside a wharf (what you call a non floating piled dock?) The other advantage I see in this solution over a well is that it allows a reasonably big engine to be used without the overheating/air supply problens that wells often seem to give. The article is at home but if anyone is interested I can scan and post it. Regards Foster Price Southland, New Zealand > Thank you for the brainstorming. Solomon technologies has an > impressive solution, albeit with an expensive capital outlay. I once > towed a large Grand Banks from Vancouver Bay to Egmont with a 10hp > outboard on a skiff against the wind. They had run out of diesel and > the wind was pushing them up on the rocks. Also towed a dive boat > (out of fuel) from Spanish banks to Burrard Civic with the 7.5 Honda > on my Cal 25. This seems to indicate that the thrust can do the > job. Tug-o-war would qive a quantifiable result. The weakness > appears to be in attaching the motor to the hull. An inboard has > more structural integrity in so many ways. Still thinking, rt > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> > wrote: > > I guess the other hope is the promising developments in the Ballard > Fuel > > cells, which could provide a clean, vibration-free source of energy. > > > > I note also on the www.solomontechnologies.com website that most > > installations have a Panda 4kw generator for recharging. While > this may be > > a step backward to internal combustion technology, it does allow > one to > > isolate sound and vibration with a machine which should have long > life. > > > > With a generator, solar panels, wind turbines, and drag generation > through > > the prop, you could certainly have a crack at saving enough fuel to > pay for > > the unit over its lifetime, or at least make the battery > replacement issue a > > little less harsh. > > > > Alex Christie > > > > (moderator) > > > > > I had an electric vehicle for some time - it was a little Mazda > van > > > with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized > scr > > > speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The > best > > > thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly > free! > > > Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The > life of > > > the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest > you > > > give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of > cycles > > > and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds > good it > > > is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery > > > technology, which is a real pity. > > > Regards, > > > Richard Payne. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "brent swain" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs

Fishermen have come up with a simple solution to diesel fumes, install a couple of large electric fans hooked up to the ignition switch, one to pump a large amount of air in and another to pump it out. Then make the engine compartment as airtight as possible from the inside of the boat. That should be easy to plan if you start in the building stage.

     Outboards can work well, but I'd still weld in diesel engine mounts , stern tube, and exhaust outlet in the building stages to leave your options open. Making your mounts low and wide enables you to use any engine that comes along .Making them too high and narrow limits your options.Potential fuel tanks can start their life as water tanks.

    On my last boat the new owner trashed the diesel by overloading it. There was a steel boarding ladder on the side , connected to the bulwark cap by welded on chain links.

   He mounted the outboard on the boarding ladder and put a large scotchman under it to act as a float. When a wave came along , rather than submerging the outboard, it floated over the waves with the help of the scotchman.

     I've been told that extensions for a Johnson outboard fit into one another and you can put together as many as you want to make as long a shaft as you want

                                                                                Brent Swain

>From: rct_51@hotmail.com
>Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs
>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:14:13 -0000
>
>Another place to check: Mariners Xchange, 12220, 2nd Ave Steveston,
>Richmond BC. Phone (604)271-2284. On another topic: Over time, I
>have developed a very low tolerance to diesel fumes of any kind. Can
>anyone comment on effectiveness and efficiency of an outboard. I
>have seen them rigged in wells, brackets on rudders etc. I notice
>that, in general, wells seem to circulate fumes back into the
>cockpit. I have a Honda on my CAL 25 right now--it runs like a clock
>under most conditions. An x US Coast Gaurd officer (tourist) asked
>to see the construction of the (36')steel boat the other day and
>commented that a 10 hp Yamaha high thrust outboard (when compared to
>an inboard) delivers the equivalent of 35 hp at the prop?
>Brainstorming--any thoughts would be welcome. rt
>
>
>
>--- In origamiboats@y..., wade panzich wrote:
> > Whats up sucka, I hope all is going well for you
> > down there just wanted to say hello and wish you luck
> > with everything, got my engine done I just need to put
> > it in, I cant find anyone to help me, everyone is
> > gone. All is great here, the weather has been good and
> > saw some lights last night. Keep in touch I may be
> > down there sometime I will keep you posted, Aloha bro
> > Wade--- WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:
> > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to
> > > Sacremento Ca.area and
> > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to
> > > scrounge for
> > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The
> > > names/locations of
> > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing
> > > for trim to used
> > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine
> > > Exchange, Popeye's,
> > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit
> > > helps. Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
>Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
>

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 9:04 pm
Subject: diesel outboard from China Diesel

Here is an outboard from China Diesel which is designed for pushing big boats. $995 U.S.! I wonder if it could be fitted with a really long shaft? Currently 41" from bottom of unit to motor mount, longer than the longest longshaft outboard. 'Tain't a lightweight, at 250 lbs, but interesting to ponder if it could be rigged up right. I assume it is made in China, which would bother my conscience if I were to buy, considering their oppressive stand on Tibet... http://www.chinadiesel.com/mrn/diesel_outboard.htm Alex (moderator)

Replies Author Date 363 Re: diesel outboard from China Diesel Doug Barnard Wed 10/3/2001 364 Re: diesel outboard from China Diesel brentswain38@h... Thu 10/4/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Wed Oct 3, 2001 12:46 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] diesel outboard from China Diesel

> -----Original Message----- > From: Alex & Kim Christie [mailto:ravencoast@t...] > > I assume it is made in China, which would bother my conscience if > I were to > buy, considering their oppressive stand on Tibet... And with most teak coming in from Myanmar (Burma), what's a boatbuilder to do? :( ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe

Replies Author Date 364 Re: diesel outboard from China Diesel brentswain38@h... Thu 10/4/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2001 11:26 pm
Subject: Re: diesel outboard from China Diesel

Use any other wood but teak. Teak inside a boat tends to make the interior look like a cave during overcast weather, and using wood on the outside of a steel boat is a big mistake. I used to use salvaged gumwood from motorcycle crates , but now they are mostly made of metal. Gumwood is much better than teak for corners as it takes a lot more abuse. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alex & Kim Christie [mailto:ravencoast@t...] > > > > > I assume it is made in China, which would bother my conscience if > > I were to > > buy, considering their oppressive stand on Tibet... > > And with most teak coming in from Myanmar (Burma), what's a boatbuilder to > do? :( > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > "Fiesta Bimbo" > trawler-crawler wannabe From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2001 7:56 pm
Subject: Re: Outboards for motive power

The calculations are fairly simple to do to compare thrust, etc. and would tell the story. The current 3 volume PNA has data for B series and Kort nozzles, and segmental data is available from the Blount- Hubble 1981 paper (www.sname.org) I have spreadsheets for B-series, segmental props and Kort 19A nozzles in Excel, using these references. If you want me to do a specific check, let me know with speed, etc., or I can send you the sheets. From: cdbarry@h...
Date: Mon Oct 8, 2001 8:01 pm
Subject: Fuel Cells

The Coast Guard is currently using fuel cells to power some lights in Alaska. MTU also has a program going for marine fuels cells for marine propulsion. From: evanmoonjunk@y...
Date: Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:08 pm
Subject: Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered

--- In origamiboats@y..., "brent swain" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > Evan > > I just had a look at Rob's boat in Cortenay. Nice workmanship. > While I was comming home from Tonga, I found that the intake thru hull on > my head was comming out of the water when the boat heeled in gusts and I had > to wait for the lulls and pump like hell to get rinse water into the head > before the next gus came. I've since moved the intake much closer to the > centreline.Bill Lornie had to move the intake for his exhaust cooling almost > all the way to the centreline to stop it from sucking air when he heeled or > was in rough water. > Rob's head intakes would have been out of the water anytime the boat > heeled more than ten degrees. When offshore cruising , you can be heeled 25 > degrees for weeks on end. I told him to move them nearer the centreline. > Lately I've been putting in a stainless doughnut around the exhaust > outlet , flush with the hull plate,as the heat from the exhaust burns the > hull paint around the exhaust thru hull and you get a serious corrosion > problem there after a few years, even with a wet exhaust . > The aft keel stifners should be tied together with an angle iron floor of > heavy angle (3 inch by 3 inch by 1/2 inch),triangulating the trailing edges > of the keels with the centreline , otherwise a hard collision with a rock > will drive the trailing edge of the keel up into the hull a couple of inches > . I learned this the hard way, and had to jack the keel down with a > hydraulic jack before welding in the angle iron floor. > I just missed you here in Comox by a couple of days according to Karl.I > may be through Nanaimo tomorrow some time. > Brent Swain > Hi Brent, Thanks for the feedback. Somehow I missed your message the last few times I checked the forum. The deal with Rob is that he has had years of experience as a fisherman and had his mind made up about some ideas on his new boat. I tried to convince him to change his mind about a few things on the boat but without success. At the time he was happy as he got what he wanted. There is always a lot of discussion of ideas whenever I build a boat for a customer. I always tell people what you recomend as well as telling them what others have done, and then help them decide what they would be happy with. but the final choice is theirs(within reason!)...Evan > > >From: evanmoonjunk@y... > >Reply-To: origamiboats@y... > >To: origamiboats@y... > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered > >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:43:23 -0000 > > > >--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > > > I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni. > > > Anyone know the owner? > > > Hi Alex, yes this is a boat that I pulled together about ten years > >ago in Port Alberni. The owner is Toni Janske(spelling unsure} He > >wanted a boat just under 30' so he could ship it to Europe on a > >freighter and also wanted a flush deck for max. interior space. We > >put in an outboard well cause he did not want to use interior space > >for an inboard. He seems to be happy with the boat but it has been > >several years since I talked to him. Apparently he trucked the boat > >over to Nanaimo so he would not have to sail around. Probably does > >not have a whole lot of time off....Evan > > > Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, > >but > > > has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a > >well. > > > There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in > >the > > > manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale. > > > > > > Alex Christie > > > (moderator) > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Replies Author Date 368 Interesting experiment with UHMW plastic rct_51@h... Wed 10/24/2001
From: rct_51@h...
Date: Wed Oct 24, 2001 3:19 am
Subject: Interesting experiment with UHMW plastic

Local industries use Ultra High Molecular Wheight plastic for flights on conveyors, wear plates in chutes, bearings and bearing surfaces, etc. Someone described its' performance as "nylon on steroids." Nevertheless, it does eventually wear in extermely abrasive environments. When it gets worn into irregular shapes it often gets discarded. The good news is: you can shape it with woodworking tools. Having welded nylon with good success in the past, i surmised this stuff would join just as well--it does. I took (2) 1.5" slabs and welded them together to make 3" wide bow rollers out of. I tested the weld with a blacksmith hammer--the joint is rock solid. To weld the stuff: drill holes in roller pieces; heat both surfaces of roller pieces with propane torch until clear liquid plastic appears in an even film; place on threaded rod quickly with the two liquid surfaces facing; tighten nuts on ready rod. This ensures even pressure and symetry. I used the same size rod to do this as to turn down the rollers. The trick is to rehearse everything before you actually do the weld. I plan to make more rollers this weekend for spares. rt From: normkoenig@y...
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2001 2:15 pm
Subject: Specs on Brent's designs

Group, I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's designs. I have a few questions, though: Are there non-pilothouse versions available? Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot version? How much? Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? Thanks in advance for your help. - Norm

Replies Author Date 370 Re: Specs on Brent's designs Stephen Wandling Sun 10/28/2001 371 Re: Specs on Brent's designs evanmoonjunk@y... Thu 11/1/2001 375 Re: Specs on Brent's designs brentswain38@h... Wed 11/7/2001 378 Re: Specs on Brent's designs Mike Tracy Thu 11/8/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2001 6:37 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Specs on Brent's designs

Norm, I am sure Brent will be along shortly and will provide answers to your questions, or you can email him directly at <brentswain38@h...>. I didn't discover Brent's boats until after I had purchased a 35' Roberts designed steel boat, or I probably would be building a Swain boat right now. I want to make a comment on pilothouses. I confess to having a prejudice against 'wheelhouses or pilothouses'. "Real men man the helm in the wind and rain" and all of that good stuff. I had hoped to have my boat in the water by now, but circumstances have deemed otherwise. I am glad. Given the onset of the new season and a few samplings of the season to come, I am realizing that if I intend to make this boat my full time home I will have to have a 'full time' view of the weather conditions to be expected. The long and short of it is that I will now add a minimal pilothouse to my boat, enabling me to have a look around from inside while the vane steers it's course. Since I won't have an engine I won't be making the typical use of the pilothouse: motoring, but by running a morse cable from inside, connected to the trim tab on the rudder I can have steering with a 'jog stick'. If I want to actually sail from inside, this will also require running the halyards from the two junk sails and their sheets inside as well, as well as a Plexiglas 'skylight' panel to enable observing the main sail's set. But, most of the time I will let the vane do the steering. [This reminds me that I have not yet resolved how to run the halyards, etc. into the pilothouse and still allow their manipulation from the cockpit, in a manner that will not result in water leaking in to the pilothouse space. I guess I could have them channeled in a 'trough', running fore and aft and without a top, that has a drain. But issues on shifting from cockpit to pilothouse and back are still there. Any ideas?] I will confess to being well into the second half of my first century on the planet, which I suspect may have some impact on my pilothouse decision! Cheers, Stephen normkoenig@y... wrote: > Group, > > I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's > designs. I have a few questions, though: > > Are there non-pilothouse versions available? > Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot > version? How much? > Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? > Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > - Norm > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: evanmoonjunk@y...
Date: Thu Nov 1, 2001 12:53 am
Subject: Re: Specs on Brent's designs

--- In origamiboats@y..., normkoenig@y... wrote: > Group, > > I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's > designs. I have a few questions, though: > > Are there non-pilothouse versions available? > Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot > version? How much? > Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? > Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > - Norm Hi Norm, These boats have built with pilot houses, without pilot houses, normal cocpits, no cockpits(flush deck in stern) raised flush deck in back and variations of this. I have done all of the above as well as a 30' with a raised flush main cabin. There is no problem getting lots of headroom as the cabin floor can be installed according to the headroom you require Brent has some sample interiors in his plans, you would have to contact him to get copies.As far as specs are concerned, those are in the plans as well, if there is anything specific you would like to know, you can e-mail either myself or Brent...Evan

Replies Author Date 375 Re: Specs on Brent's designs brentswain38@h... Wed 11/7/2001 378 Re: Specs on Brent's designs Mike Tracy Thu 11/8/2001
From: robertgm77@e...
Date: Sun Nov 4, 2001 9:17 pm
Subject: bilge keels or not ?

I recently met some people who were on a bilge keel boat that ran aground. All usual methods of getting oneself off,kedging,pulling the mast over etc only dug the keel deeper on the side they worked on. They had to get towed and the boat had minimal damage.Has anyone had this experience ? I am considering one keel design or the other and trying to evaluate the pros and cons of both.

Replies Author Date 373 Re: bilge keels or not ? Russ Ashworth Mon 11/5/2001 376 Re: bilge keels or not ? brentswain38@h... Wed 11/7/2001 377 Re: bilge keels or not ? brentswain38@h... Wed 11/7/2001
From: Russ Ashworth <russa@s...>
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2001 4:01 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bilge keels or not ?

At 09:17 PM 11/4/01 +0000, you wrote:
I recently met some people who were on a bilge keel boat that ran aground. All usual methods of getting oneself off,kedging,pulling the mast over etc only dug the� keel deeper on the side they worked on. They had to get towed and the boat had minimal damage.Has anyone had this experience ? I am considering one keel design or the other and trying to evaluate the pros and cons of both.If the boat is sailing and healing when you hit the lee keel will be anything up to a foot or more deeper than usual, and releasing the sail will allow the boat to come upright thus reducing the draft. The way to get a bilge or twin keeler off is to get it upright. Or put the kettle on and wait until the tide comes in. That is the way they do it in England.:)
Check out the following for some fascinating reading.

http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/twinkeels.html
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/blgekeel.html

BTW. I have just bought an English Twin Keeler. It is an amazing little boat.

Russ Ashworth

An oar will always start first pull.

Replies Author Date 376 Re: bilge keels or not ? brentswain38@h... Wed 11/7/2001 377 Re: bilge keels or not ? brentswain38@h... Wed 11/7/2001
From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2001 5:51 am
Subject: New cover photo showing bilge keels

Greetings, You'll notice I changed the home page photo; this is a boat I took a snapshot of last summer while in Vancouver. Didn't see a name on it. Anyone know it? Anyhow, thought I'd post it as it shows very nicely the shape and positioning of the bilge keels that have been the subject of discussion lately. Alex Christie (moderator) From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2001 8:35 pm
Subject: Re: Specs on Brent's designs

I can't imagine why you'd want to sit in the driving rain in an open cockpit in raingear, just to look stylishly foolish, when you could be in a pilothouse , warm and dry in a t shirt sipping on a hot chocolate reading dry charts. both the 36 and 31 footers have lots of headroom. If you dropped the floor of the 36 as far as it can go you'd have almost 7 foot headroom in the trunk cabin and 8 ft in the wheelhouse. We usually go for 6ft 2 inch headroom and make the bilge into tankage. The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel . Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel. Altho I've built a 36 ft hull in ideal conditions, and shell ( hull deck cabin cockpit , keels, skeg tacked together in 6 days, it usually takes 2 to 3 weeks . Morse cable on the trimtab works well for inside steering, but lately I've been using a shaft run from the transom under the deck with an arm sticking up linked to the trimtab and an arm inside sticking down linked to the jogstick. Morse cable can corrode and sieze up, and it's travel distance is limited. The solid stainless shaft will last forever and you can give it whatever travel you need. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., evanmoonjunk@y... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., normkoenig@y... wrote: > > Group, > > > > I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's > > designs. I have a few questions, though: > > > > Are there non-pilothouse versions available? > > Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot > > version? How much? > > Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? > > Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? > > > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > > > > - Norm > Hi Norm, These boats have built with pilot houses, without pilot > houses, normal cocpits, no cockpits(flush deck in stern) raised flush > deck in back and variations of this. I have done all of the above as > well as a 30' with a raised flush main cabin. > There is no problem getting lots of headroom as the cabin floor can > be installed according to the headroom you require > Brent has some sample interiors in his plans, you would have to > contact him to get copies.As far as specs are concerned, those are in > the plans as well, if there is anything specific you would like to > know, you can e-mail either myself or Brent...Evan

Replies Author Date 378 Re: Specs on Brent's designs Mike Tracy Thu 11/8/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2001 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: bilge keels or not ?

The last thing you want to do in a bilge keeler is run aground at absolute high tide. I did once and had to dig myself out. By the time I did the lagoon had frozen over and I had to ram my way through a quarter mile of five inch ice. Most people who have built my twin keelers wouldn't want anything else and most of those who hav built single keelers wish they had twin keels. Jack Carson sailed one of my 36 foot twin keelers around the world, then built himself another twin keeler. He said that he was able to get into a lot of remote places and hang out in river mouths where the single keelers can't go . He said that for the whole east coast of Australia a twin keeler can hang out in quiet waters in drying anchorages while the single keelers bounce in the swell outside. Twin keelers are slightly slower upwind than a single keeler, but the differece is very marginal . One of my 36 ft twin keelers just sailed from Sooke to San Francisco in 5 1/2 days . I sailed from Sooke BC to Ensenada in 14 days , and just sailed home from Tonga to BC , to windward for all but the last 1,000 miles . I sailed from Hilo to BC in 23 days, in spite of making absolutly no easting against 20 knot NE winds until 38 north . Twin keelers don't have the tankage in the keels that single keelers have. My current 31 ft twinkeeler has never paid to stay in a marina in the 17 years since I launched her , largely due to her ability to dry out. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Russ Ashworth <russa@s...> wrote: > From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Wed Nov 7, 2001 8:54 pm
Subject: Re: bilge keels or not ?

If you get stuck on a falling tide,in a twin keeler, relax, put the coffee pot on and enjoy the break. Some twin keelers often pull into an anchorage at night and deliberatly hit the beach, put out a lot of anchor rode and go to bed , with no worries about dragging anchor . When a gale blows through an anchorage there is no place I'd rather be than hard aground. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Russ Ashworth <russa@s...> wrote: > From: "Mike Tracy" <miket@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2001 12:14 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Specs on Brent's designs

Brent, How's the headroom and draft on the 26 footer? Mike To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From: brentswain38@h... Date sent: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:35:07 -0000 Send reply to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Specs on Brent's designs I can't imagine why you'd want to sit in the driving rain in an open cockpit in raingear, just to look stylishly foolish, when you could be in a pilothouse , warm and dry in a t shirt sipping on a hot chocolate reading dry charts. both the 36 and 31 footers have lots of headroom. If you dropped the floor of the 36 as far as it can go you'd have almost 7 foot headroom in the trunk cabin and 8 ft in the wheelhouse. We usually go for 6ft 2 inch headroom and make the bilge into tankage. The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel . Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel. Altho I've built a 36 ft hull in ideal conditions, and shell ( hull deck cabin cockpit , keels, skeg tacked together in 6 days, it usually takes 2 to 3 weeks . Morse cable on the trimtab works well for inside steering, but lately I've been using a shaft run from the transom under the deck with an arm sticking up linked to the trimtab and an arm inside sticking down linked to the jogstick. Morse cable can corrode and sieze up, and it's travel distance is limited. The solid stainless shaft will last forever and you can give it whatever travel you need. Brent Swain Michael Tracy, IMUTS NATEC, NAS Oceana miket@s..., tracym@n... 433-5489, 4600, 5821 From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2001 6:04 pm
Subject: Kobella - a 36 footer

For new members to the group, I have posted photos of Kobella in the photo section. This is a fine 36 footer located on the British Columbia coast. I think it is a good example of the type, and the photos show some details that are typical hallmarks of Swain boats. These are: "ship"-style main cabin hatch, owner-built manual anchor winch, pilot house and more. What sets these boats apart from other is that the plans and the book provide details for constructing nearly everything on the boat, obviating the need to purchase expense "marine" parts of dubious quality. I think Brent has dealt very well with the age-old adage:"The most important piece of equipment will always fail when you need it the most", and has engineered the accessories to deal with the worst conditions one typically meets. There is a lot of store-bought equipment out there which is only designed to look pretty and function on a shelf in a marine store. Alex Christie (moderator) From: paull01@y...
Date: Sun Nov 11, 2001 7:25 pm
Subject: Email Onboard

Brent, I was curious about your email setup. You said you've been living aboard with very little need for expense. I was wondering how you communicate with email. Do you use an HF setup? Do you have to go through an ISP? Paul Woodinville,WA From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2001 1:58 am
Subject: Origamiboats group: 6 New photo albums

Dear Group, For the benefit of new members, I have added six new albums of photos to the Photo section. Some of the albums are a repeat of those in the old Files section, re-created in the Photo section for ease of viewing with thumbnails. Of particular interest to everyone may be the "Building Sequence" photo album, which I have re-organized to follow the actual lay-out and building sequence of a typical 36 footer, from plate as delivered to basic hull (sans keels and skeg). The views which follow most logically are the "Paul's boat" photo file, which shows a hull in one piece before painting. Also added are snapshots of Brent Swain's own 31 footer, and the newest 40 footer (there are two now) in the South Pacific. The Dove III album shows the 26 footer built on Vancouver Island and sailed through the Canadian Arctic Northwest Passage (there is a great book available about this exploit). The new home page photo shows designer Brent Swain's 31 footer standing proud on a drying mudflat. The twin bilge keels and skeg assure a steady footing. It is great to see more people joining the group every day (about 5 a day now). Please feel free to post any questions and thoughts you may have to the group any time. Alex Christie (moderator) From: winslow59@y...
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:17 pm
Subject: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six fotos. Metal Boat Society: http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php -- also -- Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. META http://www.reducostall.com I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- and reading personal experiences and opinions.

Replies Author Date 383 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Doug Barnard Thu 11/15/2001 384 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Gary H. Lucas Thu 11/15/2001 389 origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) Doug Barnard Thu 11/15/2001 390 Re: origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) jmatt@e... Thu 11/15/2001 385 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Doug Lind Thu 11/15/2001 386 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Gary H. Lucas Thu 11/15/2001 387 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Doug Lind Thu 11/15/2001 388 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Gary H. Lucas Thu 11/15/2001 395 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Russ Ashworth Fri 11/16/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:10 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the current issue... ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > -----Original Message----- > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > fotos. > Metal Boat Society: > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > -- also -- > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > META > http://www.reducostall.com > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:28 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

Doug, What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing with Rhino and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of paper and assembled. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > current issue... > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > > fotos. > > Metal Boat Society: > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > -- also -- > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > META > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 389 origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) Doug Barnard Thu 11/15/2001 390 Re: origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) jmatt@e... Thu 11/15/2001
From: Doug Lind <douglind@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:51 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made out of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now considering steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am looking at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I will take it from there. Thank you Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > Doug, > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing with Rhino > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of paper > and assembled. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > > current issue... > > > > ___________________________ > > Doug Barnard > > currently in design phase of > > "Iron Lotus" > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > > > fotos. > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > META > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:25 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

Doug, You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made out > of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now considering > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am looking > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I will > take it from there. > Thank you > Doug > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > Doug, > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing with > Rhino > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of > paper > > and assembled. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > > > current issue... > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > Doug Barnard > > > currently in design phase of > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > > > > fotos. > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > META > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > From: Doug Lind <douglind@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:56 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug a Doug Barnard ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > Doug, > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made > out > > of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now considering > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > looking > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I will > > take it from there. > > Thank you > > Doug > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing with > > Rhino > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of > > paper > > > and assembled. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes > six > > > > > fotos. > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > META > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:01 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

Sorry about that! So what is leaning you towards steel? I work in aluminum every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in the commercial greenhouse industry. After owning several fiberglass boats I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > a Doug Barnard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > Doug, > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made > > out > > > of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now considering > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > > looking > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I > will > > > take it from there. > > > Thank you > > > Doug > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing with > > > Rhino > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of > > > paper > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on > the > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has > an > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes > > six > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > interesting > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and > the > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > META > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 395 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META Russ Ashworth Fri 11/16/2001 398 Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META douglind@s... Fri 11/16/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 6:46 pm
Subject: origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...)

Here I am! I, too, am using Rhino 2 to get my developable plates. I'm just about ready to try the first printout at 1/2" = 1 foot scale. The actual hull design is the 48' LRC from Charles Wittholz. By taking the table of offsets from any design, you can (hopefully) convert it to an origami boat. Once I get this model completed, I'll do the deck house as well, all of the parts that I'd have CNC cut. The one problem that I'm having is to make the bow plates concave. I'm assuming that once the hull is welded up, the bow can be pulled in with come-alongs to form against the crash bulkhead (which has curved edges), just aft of the chain locker. Sound right? I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in this? ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@m...] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > Doug, > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing > with Rhino > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut > out of paper > and assembled.

Replies Author Date 390 Re: origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) jmatt@e... Thu 11/15/2001
From: jmatt@e...
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:52 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...)

It would be very helpful. Begining Rhino student here. JM >On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:46:23 -0800, you wrote: >I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, >for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in >this? > >___________________________ From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 7:08 pm
Subject: converting offsets to origami templates

Doug, Your project sounds very interesting, especially the aspect of converting any table of offsets to origami-style building. I'd guess that after trying it with the real steel that there would be some aspects of steel behaviour that are hard to predict, but this information could be fed back into the design for improvement. By all means feel free to put something in the files about it! Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) > Here I am! > > I, too, am using Rhino 2 to get my developable plates. I'm just about ready > to try the first printout at 1/2" = 1 foot scale. The actual hull design is > the 48' LRC from Charles Wittholz. By taking the table of offsets from any > design, you can (hopefully) convert it to an origami boat. Once I get this > model completed, I'll do the deck house as well, all of the parts that I'd > have CNC cut. > > The one problem that I'm having is to make the bow plates concave. I'm > assuming that once the hull is welded up, the bow can be pulled in with > come-alongs to form against the crash bulkhead (which has curved edges), > just aft of the chain locker. Sound right? > > I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, > for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in > this? > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@m...] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > Doug, > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing > > with Rhino > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut > > out of paper > > and assembled. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

Replies Author Date 394 Re: converting offsets to origami templates Doug Barnard Thu 11/15/2001 396 Re: converting offsets to origami templates jmatt@e... Fri 11/16/2001 406 Re: converting offsets to origami templates Gary H. Lucas Sat 11/17/2001 407 Re: converting offsets to origami templates Doug Barnard Sat 11/17/2001 408 The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht Alex Christie Sun 11/18/2001 413 Re: The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacD Doug Barnard Sun 11/18/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 7:09 pm
Subject: Rhino URL?

Doug, can you send URL for Rhino for us all to check out? ----- Original Message ----- From: <jmatt@e...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...) > It would be very helpful. Begining Rhino student here. > JM > > >On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:46:23 -0800, you wrote: > > >I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, > >for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in > >this? > > > >___________________________ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

Replies Author Date 393 Re: Rhino URL? Doug Barnard Thu 11/15/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:23 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Rhino URL?

> Doug, can you send URL for Rhino for us all to check out? http://www.rhino3d.com/ DB From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:23 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] converting offsets to origami templates

Well, here's the reader's Digest condensed version- it may take me a while to get the full tutorial done. So far, the only type of surface that I've found that can take advantage of the "Unroll Developable Surface" command is a "Sweep 2 Rails". This requires longitudinal lines, like the chine and the sheer, and a *straight* line that sweeps along them. The two rails can be a "Curve: Interpolate Points", which allows for the control knots to be right on the vertices. This makes for smooth longitudinal lines that pass though exact coordinates. So you grab the Table of Offsets of the source design, and begin inputting. The way that I do this is to make a square that has one corner at 0,0 and the other corner at the measurements called for in the offsets. I draw a series of squares for each station, then draw *separate* Polylines that snap to the corners of the squares. Once I have my transverse profile polylines, I then move them into position along the longitudinal axis according to the distance that the station is from the datum point. So station 0 is at zero, station 1 moves in 2'6", or whatever. You go through the entire table, making your ribs and moving them into position. So now your have something that looks like half of a boat. Making sure that your Osnap is turned on to End (points), draw a continuous Curve: Interpolate Points that snaps to each of the transverse vertices. Select the line segment at station 0, and Sweep 2 Rails. After you have done this for all of the longitudnals, you can select the surface strips and Unroll Developable Surface. These strips can be saved as .dwg (AutoCAD drawing), and taken into AutoCAD to be plotted to the scale of your fancy. Then, using a spray adhesive like Scotch 99, and working outside, attach the printout to poster board and cut out with an X-Acto, or whatever. Does this make sense? Anyone feel free to ask questions. One problem that I've had is in the line to swept. Let's say that you want to make a boat with a curved transom. Even though the line is curved in a way that's parallel to the surface, and the surface should "see" it as a straight line, I can't seem to unroll the resultant surface. Maybe somebody else might have better luck than I at this; if so, please share! Also, there are gaps between the strips. I don't know if this is due to lack of display precision, or whether these gaps are going to be show stoppers. I'm doing all of my conceptual modeling in discreet 3ds max, not because it's necessarily better, but because I know it very well. Anyway, I can see that the gaps are there when I import the file in via IGES, and I need to weld shut the vertices of the polygonal mesh. When I build my physical model, I'll be looking closely to see if I can easily close the gaps. I'll be outputting the .dwg file at 1/2" = 1 foot, or 2' long for my boat, so that should be big enough to be able to tell. Another thing is that I'll need to produce two Rhino models; one that is strictly for unrolling, and another that has the actual hull concavity up around the bow so that I can plot the bow crash bulkhead. I wish that I could get the file to work without these disquieting anomalies, so anyone please sing out if you have answers! ShipConstructor's ShipCAM sounds like it could do the trick, but 9 grand for software is a bit out of my league. ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler

Replies Author Date 396 Re: converting offsets to origami templates jmatt@e... Fri 11/16/2001
From: Russ Ashworth <russa@s...>
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 2:30 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

At 09:01 AM 11/15/01 -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote:
Sorry about that!� So what is leaning you towards steel?� I work in aluminum every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in the commercial greenhouse industry.� After owning several fiberglass boats I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. There is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear. Russ Ashworth "Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling. From: jmatt@e...
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 10:14 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] converting offsets to origami templates

On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 14:23:57 -0800, you wrote: >Well, here's the reader's Digest condensed version- it may take me a while >to get the full tutorial done. Thanks, thats more than I knew before. Some pondering time required here. JM From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:39 am
Subject: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

I think the first name of the fellow who is building the Swain hull in Nanaimo is Arkon. Ring a bell for anyone for the last name?

Alex Christie

(moderator)

There is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear. Russ Ashworth

Replies Author Date 399 Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo Darryl Carriere Fri 11/16/2001 400 Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo arthur nogueira Fri 11/16/2001 409 Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo Alex Christie Sun 11/18/2001 410 Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo Daryl Carriere Sun 11/18/2001 411 Re: location of aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo Alex and Kim Christie Sun 11/18/2001
From: douglind@s...
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:58 am
Subject: Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

I have just discovered this site and it is quite interesting. I am leaning towards steel instead of of aluminum for a couple of reasons. I had reservations about rusting out from the inside on steel but here I have learned that with proper preperation of the hull this doesn't have to be a worry. The other concern I had was resale value. Here I also found out that the original cost is a lot less so that would explain the difference. I think a steel hull is also stronger than aluminum, and there is the electrolysis on aluminum. I know this can be controlled but it is not such a worry with a steel hull. --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Sorry about that! So what is leaning you towards steel? I work in aluminum > every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in > the commercial greenhouse industry. After owning several fiberglass boats > I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > > a Doug Barnard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) > made > > > out > > > > of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now > considering > > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > > > looking > > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I > > will > > > > take it from there. > > > > Thank you > > > > Doug > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing > with > > > > Rhino > > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out > of > > > > paper > > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on > > the > > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) > has > > an > > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- > includes > > > six > > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > > interesting > > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and > > the > > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > > META > > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META > sailboats -- > > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > From: "Darryl Carriere" <darryl_marlene@h...>
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 5:52 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

his name is Erkan   at 250 755 7810

Darryl

----- Original Message -----

From: Alex & Kim Christie

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 7:39 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

I think the first name of the fellow who is building the Swain hull in Nanaimo is Arkon. Ring a bell for anyone for the last name?

Alex Christie

(moderator)

There is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear. Russ Ashworth

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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From: arthur nogueira <arthur.nogueira@b...>
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 2:43 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

Hello!,

My name is Arthur Nogueira and I have been following your discussion for a while. I could not, however, visit the site where I hear everybody saying there are lots of photos. Could you please help me with how to get there? Thanks.

Regards,

Arthur

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex & Kim Christie [mailto:ravencoast@telus.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:39 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

I think the first name of the fellow who is building the Swain hull in Nanaimo is Arkon. Ring a bell for anyone for the last name?

Alex Christie

(moderator)

There is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear. Russ Ashworth

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
From: arthur nogueira <arthur.nogueira@b...>
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 3:04 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

Hi! I am interested in metal boats (I have a fiberglass one currently), but all I ever heard seemed clearly biased towards aluminum. Have you read Michael Kasten's comments at http://www.kastenmarine.com/ ? Three conclusions seemed obvious to me: a) for the same weight, aluminum is stronger; b) aluminum will not corrode from the inside; c) electrolysis is fully controllable. It remains that aluminum is more expensive. But then there is the fact that you do not have to paint aluminum above the water line. Kasten's conclusions are, and I quote: "In choosing between steel and aluminum, the deciding points are mainly in the realms of: I. Budget: Many builders can provide an alloy vessel for less money if it is not painted, except on the bottom. II. Maintenance: What is not painted will not need to be re-painted. III. Resale: An aluminum boat will have a much higher resale, allowing any minor difference in original cost to be more than recovered. IV. Weight: As we've seen, aluminum wins this one, and in a larger vessel, will permit lighter displacement, a smaller engine, and greater range. V. Carrying Capacity: Less weight being given to structure will allow more to be put into fuel or cargo. VI. Stability: Aluminum wins again due to being lighter and therefore permitting weights to be lower down. With correct design, adjusting the vessel to suit the material, there is no reason to prefer one material or the other, unless steel will be top-heavy for a given vessel size restriction. VII. Strength: The overall point to be kept in mind is that an aluminum structure can be made with much larger scantlings, the same or greater strength, and still be much lighter than a similar structure in steel. In simple terms, aluminum is structurally more "efficient" than steel." Would you mind further elaborating on your favoring steel? In particular in relation to the preparation of the hull to avoid inside corrosion? Maybe I am missing something here and I would rather make an informed decision before actually starting to cut through sheets of metal. Thanks. Arthur -----Original Message----- From: douglind@s... [mailto:douglind@s...] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META I have just discovered this site and it is quite interesting. I am leaning towards steel instead of of aluminum for a couple of reasons. I had reservations about rusting out from the inside on steel but here I have learned that with proper preperation of the hull this doesn't have to be a worry. The other concern I had was resale value. Here I also found out that the original cost is a lot less so that would explain the difference. I think a steel hull is also stronger than aluminum, and there is the electrolysis on aluminum. I know this can be controlled but it is not such a worry with a steel hull. --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Sorry about that! So what is leaning you towards steel? I work in aluminum > every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in > the commercial greenhouse industry. After owning several fiberglass boats > I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > > a Doug Barnard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) > made > > > out > > > > of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now > considering > > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > > > looking > > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I > > will > > > > take it from there. > > > > Thank you > > > > Doug > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing > with > > > > Rhino > > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out > of > > > > paper > > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on > > the > > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) > has > > an > > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- > includes > > > six > > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > > interesting > > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and > > the > > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > > META > > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META > sailboats -- > > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From: winslow59@y...
Date: Fri Nov 16, 2001 6:51 pm
Subject: Apologies for lack of clarity re: MBQ article.

I extend my apologies to the board if I gave the impression the MBQ article by Brent Swain, or the META article, are available online. Metal Boat Quarterly, the magazine puplished by the Metal Boat Society, is mailed to MBS members and not available on newsstands or online (currently). I thought some mention of it here would provide an opportunity for those interested to seek out a copy of the magazine. You can go here: http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/members.php to request a sample copy of the MBQ and get information about the MBS. Note: Other than being a MBS member (primarily to get the magazine), I have no affiliation with MBS.

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From: "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...>
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 3:59 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] converting offsets to origami templates

Doug, On the Rhino newsgroup I describe myself as a block and cylinder guy, not the sexy curves kind, so there is a lot I don't know about using Rhino. However I don't think what you are describing would be considered an Origami type of construction in the Brent Swain context. The construction I believe you described is more like the Van De Stadt type of construction. A while back Alex posted a file that you could print, cutout and tape together to see how a Swain hull goes together. I posted a revised version with lines showing how ALL the elements of the single sheet of metal which forms a Swain hull are actually CONICAL sections which you would form in Rhino using Rail Revolve not 2 Rail Sweep. You might look for that file to see what I am talking about. If you are interested I can send you my crude Rhino model that may help you understand how I came to this conclusion. I printed the model out on paper and cut out the two hull sides, the transom and a deck, then taped them together to prove that all the surfaces would assemble properly. In reality no metal stretching is required to pull the hull together properly, so a very accurate pattern can be made and assembled. Brent welds in the angle iron longitudinals that warps the metal slightly and the result is that the conical sections become somewhat spherical and actually makes the hull even fairer. The construction you describe depends on very accurate assembly and very careful welding to produce a fair hull. Brents method almost guarantees a fair hull. I use the term 'fair' here to describe a hull where all the curves blend smoothly into one another and there are no 'hollows' where the curves reverse. I am not sure of the terminology though so my description may be a little off. My model is not a very good looking boat, but it proves the point of Origami construction. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:23 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] converting offsets to origami templates > Well, here's the reader's Digest condensed version- it may take me a while > to get the full tutorial done. > > So far, the only type of surface that I've found that can take advantage of > the "Unroll Developable Surface" command is a "Sweep 2 Rails". This requires > longitudinal lines, like the chine and the sheer, and a *straight* line that > sweeps along them. The two rails can be a "Curve: Interpolate Points", which > allows for the control knots to be right on the vertices. This makes for > smooth longitudinal lines that pass though exact coordinates. > > So you grab the Table of Offsets of the source design, and begin inputting. > The way that I do this is to make a square that has one corner at 0,0 and > the other corner at the measurements called for in the offsets. I draw a > series of squares for each station, then draw *separate* Polylines that snap > to the corners of the squares. Once I have my transverse profile polylines, > I then move them into position along the longitudinal axis according to the > distance that the station is from the datum point. So station 0 is at zero, > station 1 moves in 2'6", or whatever. You go through the entire table, > making your ribs and moving them into position. > > So now your have something that looks like half of a boat. Making sure that > your Osnap is turned on to End (points), draw a continuous Curve: > Interpolate Points that snaps to each of the transverse vertices. Select the > line segment at station 0, and Sweep 2 Rails. After you have done this for > all of the longitudnals, you can select the surface strips and Unroll > Developable Surface. These strips can be saved as .dwg (AutoCAD drawing), > and taken into AutoCAD to be plotted to the scale of your fancy. Then, using > a spray adhesive like Scotch 99, and working outside, attach the printout to > poster board and cut out with an X-Acto, or whatever. > > Does this make sense? Anyone feel free to ask questions. > > One problem that I've had is in the line to swept. Let's say that you want > to make a boat with a curved transom. Even though the line is curved in a > way that's parallel to the surface, and the surface should "see" it as a > straight line, I can't seem to unroll the resultant surface. Maybe somebody > else might have better luck than I at this; if so, please share! > > Also, there are gaps between the strips. I don't know if this is due to lack > of display precision, or whether these gaps are going to be show stoppers. > I'm doing all of my conceptual modeling in discreet 3ds max, not because > it's necessarily better, but because I know it very well. Anyway, I can see > that the gaps are there when I import the file in via IGES, and I need to > weld shut the vertices of the polygonal mesh. When I build my physical > model, I'll be looking closely to see if I can easily close the gaps. I'll > be outputting the .dwg file at 1/2" = 1 foot, or 2' long for my boat, so > that should be big enough to be able to tell. > > Another thing is that I'll need to produce two Rhino models; one that is > strictly for unrolling, and another that has the actual hull concavity up > around the bow so that I can plot the bow crash bulkhead. > > I wish that I could get the file to work without these disquieting > anomalies, so anyone please sing out if you have answers! ShipConstructor's > ShipCAM sounds like it could do the trick, but 9 grand for software is a bit > out of my league. > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 407 Re: converting offsets to origami templates Doug Barnard Sat 11/17/2001 408 The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht Alex Christie Sun 11/18/2001 413 Re: The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacD Doug Barnard Sun 11/18/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sat Nov 17, 2001 9:21 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] converting offsets to origami templates

> From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@m...] <snip> > However I don't think what you are describing would be considered > an Origami > type of construction in the Brent Swain context. The > construction I believe > you described is more like the Van De Stadt type of construction. Ah! Excellent discourse here! I was wondering the same. It was for this type of feedback that I posted my methodology. I'm no great shakes at Rhino myself, or at computer-aided hull design. Having to sit there with my hat in my hands, as experts told me what was what, hasn't been a problem since I got out of my teens! <grin> > A while > back Alex posted a file that you could print, cutout and tape together to > see how a Swain hull goes together. I posted a revised version with lines > showing how ALL the elements of the single sheet of metal which forms a > Swain hull are actually CONICAL sections which you would form in > Rhino using > Rail Revolve not 2 Rail Sweep. You might look for that file to see what I > am talking about. If you are interested I can send you my crude > Rhino model Yes, please do! I'll send you my model as well. Please post any commentary that you have on it for any that would like to make additional comments. When it comes to putting my hard earned $$$ on the line to build a big damn boat, my ego takes a backseat! <grin> <snip> > In reality no metal stretching is required to pull the hull > together properly, so a very accurate pattern can be made and assembled. Can't wait to see it! <snip> > actually makes the hull even fairer. The construction you > describe depends > on very accurate assembly and very careful welding to produce a fair hull. In Brent's book, he describes cutting out six square panels, and saying that the only way to put them together will form a cube (I paraphrase here). When you see the strips that are formed by the Unroll process, you can see that their curves aren't "parallel"; that they require bending to be able to put them together. When I build my 2 foot model, I'll be able to see this more clearly. I'll be sure to post pictures. I can see that having transverse patterns, from various stations, would be a handy thing when welding up the hull. Maybe even tack on the side decks before attaching the hulls together? > My > model is not a > very good looking boat, but it proves the point of Origami construction. One of the reasons that I went with the strip approach is that the hull lines seemed to want it. The lines of the trawler are more broad through the design than the sleeker lines of Brent's boats. Maybe it's a lack of expertise on my part, or maybe its one of those ragbag vs. smokepot things. More work is definitely called for! I think that what were doing here is an important thing, in that with the refinement of these techniques, we can make it so that basically *any* chined boat can be built cheaply and efficiently by backyard builders. Whether it's origami, Van De Stadt, or some mix of the two remains to be seen. I just want to get myself going on the waterways! One of the big messages that I got from Brent's writings is that origami-type construction is the fastest way to get from Point A (boatless) to Point B (cruising the world in an optimum, paid-for yacht). Last weekend, I took a tour of a total-Bristol Nordhavn 46 that is going down to the south coast of Mexico in a few weeks. Absolutely phenomenal trawler, incredibly well set up. I just checked my accounts, and I seem to be a bit shy of the $500K to go out and get my own! Hmmm... maybe if I check under the couch for dropped change? Thanks for the response! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler

Replies Author Date 408 The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht Alex Christie Sun 11/18/2001 413 Re: The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacD Doug Barnard Sun 11/18/2001
From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:11 am
Subject: The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht

Very interesting experimentation going on here with Rhino 3D being used to unwrap a chined boat. Might I direct some of our common thought toward the idea of a short, fat power vessel? While it is the antithesis of the sleek, ocean- crossing sailboats, it has some virtue for the mostly dock-bound liveaboards. While I am planning to build the 40 foot sailboat, it has struck me that for those who plan to travel only coastal routes a trawler-type yacht would suit fine. If you are to be a full-time liveaboard with 95% of time to be spent tied to the dock, then the need for an ocean crossing mast and sails is also downgraded, and the money can be either saved or plowed into on-board luxuries. A nice big good- looking steel power vessel could really fit the bill. 36 feet of power vessel on a wider beam than the sailboat would likely produce a liveaboard of very spacious accommodations, easily on par with the 40 foot sailboat, would it not? Phil Bolger once did a fun workup of a "Trawler Houseboat", only 30 feet or so long, very beamy, and quite lofty. While not intended for ocean-crossings, it was seaworthy (he made no promises for comfort, but did indicate that it wouldn't sink in big waves - ie the crew would be worn out long before the boat was). The origami system works very well with moderately-beamed hulls; I wonder what extra reinforcements other than longitudinals and bulkheads would be needed for stiffening the larger skin surface areas of a high-sided power vessel? It is such a different kind of hull that it is likely to need a lot of thought to do it right. Something to think about. Alex Christie (moderator) --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@m...] > > <snip> > > > However I don't think what you are describing would be considered > > an Origami > > type of construction in the Brent Swain context. The > > construction I believe > > you described is more like the Van De Stadt type of construction. > > Ah! Excellent discourse here! I was wondering the same. It was for this type > of feedback that I posted my methodology. I'm no great shakes at Rhino > myself, or at computer-aided hull design. Having to sit there with my hat in > my hands, as experts told me what was what, hasn't been a problem since I > got out of my teens! <grin> > > > A while > > back Alex posted a file that you could print, cutout and tape together to > > see how a Swain hull goes together. I posted a revised version with lines > > showing how ALL the elements of the single sheet of metal which forms a > > Swain hull are actually CONICAL sections which you would form in > > Rhino using > > Rail Revolve not 2 Rail Sweep. You might look for that file to see what I > > am talking about. If you are interested I can send you my crude > > Rhino model > > Yes, please do! I'll send you my model as well. Please post any commentary > that you have on it for any that would like to make additional comments. > When it comes to putting my hard earned $$$ on the line to build a big damn > boat, my ego takes a backseat! <grin> > > <snip> > > > In reality no metal stretching is required to pull the hull > > together properly, so a very accurate pattern can be made and assembled. > > Can't wait to see it! > > <snip> > > > actually makes the hull even fairer. The construction you > > describe depends > > on very accurate assembly and very careful welding to produce a fair hull. > > In Brent's book, he describes cutting out six square panels, and saying that > the only way to put them together will form a cube (I paraphrase here). When > you see the strips that are formed by the Unroll process, you can see that > their curves aren't "parallel"; that they require bending to be able to put > them together. When I build my 2 foot model, I'll be able to see this more > clearly. I'll be sure to post pictures. > > I can see that having transverse patterns, from various stations, would be a > handy thing when welding up the hull. Maybe even tack on the side decks > before attaching the hulls together? > > > My > > model is not a > > very good looking boat, but it proves the point of Origami construction. > > One of the reasons that I went with the strip approach is that the hull > lines seemed to want it. The lines of the trawler are more broad through the > design than the sleeker lines of Brent's boats. Maybe it's a lack of > expertise on my part, or maybe its one of those ragbag vs. smokepot things. > More work is definitely called for! > > I think that what were doing here is an important thing, in that with the > refinement of these techniques, we can make it so that basically *any* > chined boat can be built cheaply and efficiently by backyard builders. > Whether it's origami, Van De Stadt, or some mix of the two remains to be > seen. I just want to get myself going on the waterways! One of the big > messages that I got from Brent's writings is that origami-type construction > is the fastest way to get from Point A (boatless) to Point B (cruising the > world in an optimum, paid-for yacht). > > Last weekend, I took a tour of a total-Bristol Nordhavn 46 that is going > down to the south coast of Mexico in a few weeks. Absolutely phenomenal > trawler, incredibly well set up. I just checked my accounts, and I seem to > be a bit shy of the $500K to go out and get my own! > > Hmmm... maybe if I check under the couch for dropped change? > > Thanks for the response! > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler

Replies Author Date 413 Re: The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacD Doug Barnard Sun 11/18/2001
From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 2:13 am
Subject: Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

Dear group, I had a look in Nanaimo for the Erkan aluminum Swain hull, hoping to capture some images for our photo files, but did not find it on Prideaux where the train tracks cross it. Perhaps he has moved it, or launched it? Anyone have some info on this? Alex Christie (moderator) From: "Daryl Carriere" <darryl_marlene@h...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:35 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

I just talked to Erkan on the phone , his boat is still in his yard at 145 Prideaux. The tracks cross Prideaux in two places. Darryl >From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:13:54 -0000 > >Dear group, > >I had a look in Nanaimo for the Erkan aluminum Swain hull, hoping to >capture some images for our photo files, but did not find it on >Prideaux where the train tracks cross it. Perhaps he has moved it, >or launched it? Anyone have some info on this? > >Alex Christie > >(moderator) > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Replies Author Date 411 Re: location of aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo Alex and Kim Christie Sun 11/18/2001
From: Alex and Kim Christie <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 5:40 am
Subject: re: location of aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo

Ahah, it was in the back of my mind that this may have been the case, the tracks crossing the road twice, but I didn't act on it. Will attempt another try on my way back up Vancouver Island on Monday. Everyone keep their eyes peeled for new photos, should I have some success! Alex Christie (moderator) --- Daryl Carriere <darryl_marlene@h...> wrote: > I just talked to Erkan on the phone , his boat is > still in his yard at 145 > Prideaux. The tracks cross Prideaux in two places. > Darryl > _______________________________________________________ Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com From: kupris1948@a...
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 12:58 pm
Subject: inorganic zinc rich primer recoat time, is there any?

I would like to leisurely sandblast an interior and prime as I go. I work alone and outside. I want to overcoat the zinc primer with coal tar epoxy . Will there be a time limit between zinc and zinc or zinc and coal tar? John.

Replies Author Date 414 Re: inorganic zinc rich primer recoat time, is thrct_51@ rct_51@h... Tue 11/20/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Nov 18, 2001 6:12 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht

> From: Alex Christie [mailto:ravencoast@t...] > Might I direct some of our common thought toward the idea of a short, > fat power vessel? While it is the antithesis of the sleek, ocean- > crossing sailboats, it has some virtue for the mostly dock-bound > liveaboards. Great point, Alex. As cool as the Swain designs are, they are just one kind of boat. To me, one of the most appealing things about building a boat for myself is that I can build exactly what will be of the most use to *me*. Trying to fit into other molds ain't what it's about, man! I'll continue to share successes and failures with the list as I work through the design process. Hey, I don't want to share my anchorages exclusively with leased fiberglass eyesores! > Phil Bolger once did a fun workup of a "Trawler Houseboat", only 30 > feet or so long, very beamy, and quite lofty. While not intended for > ocean-crossings, it was seaworthy (he made no promises for comfort, > but did indicate that it wouldn't sink in big waves - ie the crew > would be worn out long before the boat was). Sounds suspiciously like the infamous "Busted Flush", owned by John D. MacDonald's fictitious Travis McGee! > The origami system works very well with moderately-beamed hulls; I > wonder what extra reinforcements other than longitudinal and > bulkheads would be needed for stiffening the larger skin surface > areas of a high-sided power vessel? It is such a different kind of > hull that it is likely to need a lot of thought to do it right. This is of concern to me, as well. Brent tells us that when traditional designs are holed, it tends to happen at the transverse ribs. I have the feeling that I'll need to add some rib/bulkhead bracing, but how much? ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler From: rct_51@h...
Date: Tue Nov 20, 2001 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: inorganic zinc rich primer recoat time, is there any?

If you look in the ICI Devoe coatings website they have tehnical data sheets. Catha-cote 302 reinforced inorganic zinc primer seems to have a (self) recoat time of 90 days depending on conditions. International paints uses a different system that appears to be fairly fussy by comparison. Note that some manufacturers have replaced coal tar products recently because of the toxicity. They claim that some of the mastics will outperform coal-tar without the hazards. They may cost more too? There are disclaimers attatched to the data sheets that relate to intercoat delamination--contact your supplier is the last word. --- In origamiboats@y..., kupris1948@a... wrote: > I would like to leisurely sandblast an interior and prime as I go. I > work alone and outside. I want to overcoat the zinc primer with coal > tar epoxy . Will there be a time limit between zinc and zinc or zinc > and coal tar? John. From: Doug Lind <douglind@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META

A lot of the reasons why steel was not my first choice are not there anymore. My major concern was that of floating around in a bucket of rust. I have learned that with proper preparation of the hull it will not rust out from the inside in 10 years. The second was resale value as this is still lower by far for a steel sailboat than one out of aluminum. Bringing into the fact that building a steel hull is a lot less, this concern has diminished. A steel will take more abuse and it does not have the same electrolysis as an aluminum hull. I haven't made my mind up completely yet, but these are the reasons why I am leaning towards steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > Sorry about that! So what is leaning you towards steel? I work in aluminum > every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in > the commercial greenhouse industry. After owning several fiberglass boats > I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > > a Doug Barnard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) > made > > > out > > > > of aluminum but after reading someof these threads I an now > considering > > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > > > looking > > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I > > will > > > > take it from there. > > > > Thank you > > > > Doug > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > What are you using to design your boat? I have done some playing > with > > > > Rhino > > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out > of > > > > paper > > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on > > the > > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) > has > > an > > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- > includes > > > six > > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > > interesting > > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin - without the > > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and > > the > > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > > META > > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META > sailboats -- > > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:40 am
Subject: New photos uploaded

Dear Group, A day ago I dropped by to see Darryl Carriere's 36 foot steel Swain sailboat, and took a few photos for the group photo files. The snapshots are located in the album, "Darryl's Boat". The profile photo of his boat shows very well how fairness is acheived on these hulls without the use of fillers. Darryl has graciously loaned me many photos from his own collection showing both his and other boats in build, as well as a few of an Aluminum boat in Nanaimo. When I wade over to the school to use the scanner next week I'll scan them and post to the group. Alex Christie (moderator) From: johnh94927@y...
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 7:40 am
Subject: Newcomer sez: Fantastic group

And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can start with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone gimme info on on this cool-lookin boat? AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a smaller 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty cool. And... And... And...

Replies Author Date 418 Re: Newcomer sez: Fantastic group Stephen Wandling Wed 11/21/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group

John, I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an Evan Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. Evan has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, BC Canada. I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged boats. Stephen johnh94927@y... wrote: > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can start > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone gimme > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a smaller > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty cool. > And... > And... > And... > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2001 10:50 pm
Subject: Evan Shaler Junk

John, The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler Junk" are indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler. I am not sure, but I think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the Brent boats to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a 42 foot wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese junk. CHINA CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, as well as the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of simple-living. Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I don't believe he did up actual plans. With his long experience building Brent's boats he just "did it"! Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > John, > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an Evan > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. Evan > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, BC > Canada. I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged > boats. > > Stephen > > johnh94927@y... wrote: > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can start > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone gimme > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a smaller > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty cool. > > And... > > And... > > And... > >

Replies Author Date 420 Re: Evan Shaler Junk Stephen Wandling Thu 11/22/2001 421 Re: Evan Shaler Junk Alex Christie Thu 11/22/2001 422 Re: Evan Shaler Junk Stephen Wandling Thu 11/22/2001 423 Shaler Junk engine origamiboats@t... Thu 11/22/2001 424 Re: Shaler Junk engine evanmoonjunk@y... Fri 11/23/2001 460 Re: Shaler Junk engine paull01@y... Sat 12/1/2001 466 adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine) Doug Barnard Sun 12/2/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:11 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Evan Shaler Junk

Alex, I don't see "Shaler Junk" in the Photo Album, but I see the "Bellavial" listed under "42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner" in the Files section. Is this Evan's boat? Stephen Alex & Kim Christie wrote: > John, > > The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler Junk" > are > indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler. I am not sure, > but I > think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the Brent > boats > to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a 42 > foot > wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese junk. > CHINA > CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, as > well as > the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of > simple-living. > Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I don't > > believe he did up actual plans. With his long experience building > Brent's > boats he just "did it"! > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > > > > John, > > > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an > Evan > > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. > Evan > > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, > BC > > Canada. I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged > > boats. > > > > Stephen > > > > johnh94927@y... wrote: > > > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can > start > > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone > gimme > > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > > > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a > smaller > > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty > cool. > > > And... > > > And... > > > And... > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Replies Author Date 421 Re: Evan Shaler Junk Alex Christie Thu 11/22/2001
From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2001 1:23 am
Subject: Re: Evan Shaler Junk

Stephen, The photo album of 4 photos of the Shaler Junk are in the new "Photos" section now offered on Yahoogroups (the photo of Bella Via is in the old "Files" section, formerly the only place photos could go). After you click on "Photos" you'll see it three rows down and two albums over from the left. regards, Alex Christie (moderator) --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Alex, > > I don't see "Shaler Junk" in the Photo Album, but I see the "Bellavial" > listed under "42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner" in the Files > section. Is this Evan's boat? > Stephen > > Alex & Kim Christie wrote: > > > John, > > > > The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler Junk" > > are > > indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler. I am not sure, > > but I > > think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the Brent > > boats > > to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a 42 > > foot > > wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese junk. > > CHINA > > CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, as > > well as > > the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of > > simple-living. > > Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I don't > > > > believe he did up actual plans. With his long experience building > > Brent's > > boats he just "did it"! > > > > Alex Christie > > > > (moderator) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an > > Evan > > > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. > > Evan > > > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, > > BC > > > Canada. I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged > > > boats. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > johnh94927@y... wrote: > > > > > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can > > start > > > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > > > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone > > gimme > > > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > > > > > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a > > smaller > > > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty > > cool. > > > > And... > > > > And... > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2001 2:14 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Evan Shaler Junk

Alex, Ah, the mind works in strange and interesting ways. For some time now, for reasons I don't think I even want the answers for, I have been going to the junkrig site at yahoo and looking for origami stuff. I recall your fairly recent message about rearranging photos and recall that when I looked I couldn't find them. Thanks for your patient guidance. I have never seen these photos before. What a beautiful boat and seeming homage to Allan Farrell's "China Cloud". Is this boat engineless as it appears? If so I am doubly impressed. Thanks. Stephen Alex Christie wrote: > Stephen, > > The photo album of 4 photos of the Shaler Junk are in the > new "Photos" section now offered on Yahoogroups (the photo of Bella > Via is in the old "Files" section, formerly the only place photos > could go). After you click on "Photos" you'll see it three rows down > and two albums over from the left. > > regards, > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > Alex, > > > > I don't see "Shaler Junk" in the Photo Album, but I see > the "Bellavial" > > listed under "42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner" in the Files > > section. Is this Evan's boat? > > Stephen > > > > Alex & Kim Christie wrote: > > > > > John, > > > > > > The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler > Junk" > > > are > > > indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler. I am not > sure, > > > but I > > > think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the > Brent > > > boats > > > to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a > 42 > > > foot > > > wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese > junk. > > > CHINA > > > CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, > as > > > well as > > > the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of > > > simple-living. > > > Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I > don't > > > > > > believe he did up actual plans. With his long experience building > > > > Brent's > > > boats he just "did it"! > > > > > > Alex Christie > > > > > > (moderator) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > > > > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is > an > > > Evan > > > > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. > > > Evan > > > > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in > Nanaimo, > > > BC > > > > Canada. I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk > rigged > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > johnh94927@y... wrote: > > > > > > > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can > > > > start > > > > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, > but > > > > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone > > > gimme > > > > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > > > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's > steel > > > > > > > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a > > > smaller > > > > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked > pretty > > > cool. > > > > > And... > > > > > And... > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor [Image] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Replies Author Date 423 Shaler Junk engine origamiboats@t... Thu 11/22/2001 424 Re: Shaler Junk engine evanmoonjunk@y... Fri 11/23/2001 460 Re: Shaler Junk engine paull01@y... Sat 12/1/2001 466 adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine) Doug Barnard Sun 12/2/2001
From: origamiboats@t...
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2001 3:38 am
Subject: Shaler Junk engine

Yes, Evan has done a great job on his junk. I believe the Shaler junk is powered by diesel engine. Like Farrell's CHINA CLOUD, it has twin keels, though I don't know if they are more like Brent's boats or not. Evan's rudder appears to be fixed on a skeg, as per the Brent boats, as opposed to Farrell's traditional junk rudder which goes up and down with a block and tackle. Some time Evan will sign in on this and set me straight on the subject! Alex > I have never seen these photos before. What a beautiful boat and > seeming homage to Allan Farrell's "China Cloud". Is this boat > engineless as it appears? If so I am doubly impressed. > > Thanks. > > Stephen >

Replies Author Date 424 Re: Shaler Junk engine evanmoonjunk@y... Fri 11/23/2001 460 Re: Shaler Junk engine paull01@y... Sat 12/1/2001 466 adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine) Doug Barnard Sun 12/2/2001
From: evanmoonjunk@y...
Date: Fri Nov 23, 2001 3:12 am
Subject: Re: Shaler Junk engine

--- In origamiboats@y..., origamiboats@t... wrote: > Yes, Evan has done a great job on his junk. > > I believe the Shaler junk is powered by diesel engine. Like > Farrell's CHINA CLOUD, it has twin keels, though I don't know if they > are more like Brent's boats or not. Evan's rudder appears to be fixed > on a skeg, as per the Brent boats, as opposed to Farrell's > traditional junk rudder which goes up and down with a block and > tackle. Some time Evan will sign in on this and set me straight on > the subject! > > Alex > > > I have never seen these photos before. What a beautiful boat and > > seeming homage to Allan Farrell's "China Cloud". Is this boat > > engineless as it appears? If so I am doubly impressed. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Stephen > >Hi Alex, I fanally checked in again to see what is going on, I guess I should look at the pictures more often to see what's there! Here are some answers to the questions flying around. The basic construction is based on Brent's method with variations. All the components are pulled together the same way except the bottom of the hull. When I came up with the idea of building this boat(a long time ago) I spent a great deal of time talking to Allen about China Cloud, pros and cons etc. He insisted that a flat bottom was important so I incorporated that into the design. So instead of a V as in Brent's boats there is a section in the bottom that is flat(with a curve fore and aft) that is shaped like the bottom of a dory.This made for interesting challenges pulling 3 plates together for the hull but it worked. If I was to do it again I would do it with a shallow V for ease of construction and to get a bilge area which I don't have much of now. At the time that I conceived the idea to build this boat I had already built quite a few of Brent's boats and wanted the challenge of building something a little different. I developed the concept the same that Brent did, with cardboard models. Allen had a wooden half model of China Cloud plus his lines and ofsets(which are also in the book about China Cloud, "Sailing back in time"). I started off with half inch to the foot models geting the shape as close as I could to the half model(about 7 of these) and then went to 1 inch to the foot (3 of these). From the final model I was abel to take accurate measuerments to make scale drawings from which I could loft out the hull, decks etc. The boat draws about 4' 10". It is a lot heavier than China Cloud because of steel, Engine, fuel tanks, twice as much water etc. I also wanted to go deeper draft(extra 18") for better windward performance which it did accomplish. The keels are bigger than I should have gone. The length of them was based on China Cloud forgetting at the time that a wood boat needs a lot more strutural support than a steel boat. Oh well live and learn! There is 200 gallons of water in the keels plus 2000 lbs of lead plus a sump in each end. Yes there is an engine as in my last boat (a Brent 31') I could not afford one ,this time I wanted one. I originally was going to go hydraulic drive, but as I could not afford that either I settled for an ancient 2 cylinder Hercules(circa 1945) The rudder is fixed on a skeg using all the same methods as on Brents boats. If you have any more questions feel free to ask and I will be happy to answer them.....Evan

Replies Author Date 460 Re: Shaler Junk engine paull01@y... Sat 12/1/2001 466 adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine) Doug Barnard Sun 12/2/2001
From: robertgm77@e...
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2001 1:05 am
Subject: Peugeot motors/ beamier boats

I am really enjoying all the discussion.All info is good from my standpoint.I am at the stage of either building a boat or buying someone elses dream.I have the opportunity to buy a 36 ft steel Spray finished hull with a new 52hp Peugeot motor,maybe known as a Vetus motor.Does anyone have experience with these motors ? How about Sprays,pros,cons? I have done the usual research,Bruce Roberts website,books but do not know anyone who has sailed one.Re building a boat, has anyone built a beamy,ie 12 to 14 ft,cruiser 36 to 40 ft length via origami method ?

Replies Author Date 427 Re: Peugeot motors/ beamier boats Alex & Kim Christie Sun 11/25/2001
From: carlmbentley@y...
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2001 7:44 pm
Subject: brent's book

hello all, great message board. i have several questions, but before i start asking - i'd like to buy the book to make sure i'm not missing anything. some quick questions first though, how much is that in u.s. $? is this still the correct address (see below)? is the book available year round ? thanks in advance carl >Suite #427 1434 Island Highway >Campbell River BC >Canada >V9W8C9 >You can order a copy of Brent's book >"How to Build a Better Steel Boat >-- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 >pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 >for postage to the above address.

Replies Author Date 428 Re: brent's book Stephen Wandling Sun 11/25/2001 436 Re: brent's book Russ Ashworth Tue 11/27/2001 429 Re: brent's book Alex & Kim Christie Sun 11/25/2001 443 Re: brent's book carlmbentley@y... Wed 11/28/2001 432 Dickinson Stove Russ Ashworth Tue 11/27/2001 439 Re: Dickinson Stove Doug Barnard Tue 11/27/2001 444 Re: brent's book Stephen Wandling Wed 11/28/2001 445 Re: brent's book Alex & Kim Christie Wed 11/28/2001 450 Re: brent's book Richard Payne Fri 11/30/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2001 8:17 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Peugeot motors/ beamier boats

Re: Robert's question about the Spray: Pros: Lot of purists poo-poo the Spray, but it is a great boat for living on --- being heavy and wide not much will throw it about. Lots of people have made successful voyages in them, and are happy with their boats. Sailing upwind may not be their forte, but that hasn't stopped people from using them, same as with junk rig advocates. With all that beam, you are getting your money's worth when living in a marina compared to most any boat out there, and probably could live very comfortably a 35 foot Spray with aft cabin. Lots of people on this coast, with its light summer winds, are very happy with their big Sprays, and don't mind firing up their big 120 hp Lehman diesels to get somewhere (the Spray is not a light air vessel, nor is it a light engine vessel). I've read that they come into their own after 25 knots of wind. Anecdotes have also come in about how the sails blow out quite often because the boat is so stiff and won't yield to an oncoming blow. Make sure you have a good set of storm sails, or religiously reduce sail on any rising wind. Cons: It is likely better to buy a Spray from someone else has used ten years of their life building. This is the heartbreaking truth about building heavy displacement boats with tons of extra bits to fit and weld. If you can get this finished Spray hull with engine, and all for a good price, and plan on living aboard full time, then go for it, why not! When building, boats cost by weight, not by length. The steel Spray hull is one of the heaviest you can find, therefore it is easy to use up your building budget just getting out the basic hull, never mind finishing it off. Compared to the quick building of a Swain hull, the Roberts Spray will take you years to build with its mile and miles of internal framing. The Swain hull is probably the lightest steel boat possible for a given length, is faster to build with less welding runs on the hull skin (hence less distortion), and requires no filling and fairing. In Canada you can buy your steel pre-primed, avoiding the need to sandblast before painting. Two 40' boats have been built using the origami methods, and one 39' is in build in Alberta. I am planning on getting across the Big Water to Vancouver to see and photograph two of these boats this month, so keep an eye out for an anouncement on the board about them. Also, I'll be seeing the 39 footer over Christmas holidays. Regards, Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: <robertgm77@e...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Peugeot motors/ beamier boats > I am really enjoying all the discussion.All info is good from my > standpoint.I am at the stage of either building a boat or buying > someone elses dream.I have the opportunity to buy a 36 ft steel > Spray finished hull with a new 52hp Peugeot motor,maybe known as > a Vetus motor.Does anyone have experience with these motors ? How > about Sprays,pros,cons? I have done the usual research,Bruce Roberts > website,books but do not know anyone who has sailed one.Re building a > boat, has anyone built a beamy,ie 12 to 14 ft,cruiser 36 to 40 ft > length via origami method ? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2001 8:20 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book

I believe the address you have is an older address. Brent's own recent directions to me were: > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage (prefer money > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > Thanks. > Brent Swain This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy. Send him US$20 and you will probably get free postage. The book is available all year round and is well worth the price. It's thin, but full of new ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". Stephen carlmbentley@y... wrote: > hello all, great message board. > i have several questions, but before i start asking - > i'd like to buy the book to make sure i'm not missing anything. > some quick questions first though, how much is that in u.s. $? > is this still the correct address (see below)? > is the book available year round ? > > thanks in advance > carl > > >Suite #427 1434 Island Highway > >Campbell River BC > >Canada > >V9W8C9 > > >You can order a copy of Brent's book > >"How to Build a Better Steel Boat > >-- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 > >pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > >for postage to the above address. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Replies Author Date 436 Re: brent's book Russ Ashworth Tue 11/27/2001
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Sun Nov 25, 2001 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book

The price for Brent's book to a US address is $20 US, plus $3.00 shipping. Brent may confirm this shortly, as well as the address question (I have Campbell River as his mailing address). Regards, Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book > I believe the address you have is an older address. Brent's own recent > directions to me were: > > > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage (prefer > money > > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > > Thanks. > > Brent Swain > > This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy. Send him > US$20 and you will probably get free postage. The book is available all > year round and is well worth the price. It's thin, but full of new > ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". > > Stephen > > carlmbentley@y... wrote: > > > hello all, great message board. > > i have several questions, but before i start asking - > > i'd like to buy the book to make sure i'm not missing anything. > > some quick questions first though, how much is that in u.s. $? > > is this still the correct address (see below)? > > is the book available year round ? > > > > thanks in advance > > carl > > > > >Suite #427 1434 Island Highway > > >Campbell River BC > > >Canada > > >V9W8C9 > > > > >You can order a copy of Brent's book > > >"How to Build a Better Steel Boat > > >-- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 > > >pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > > >for postage to the above address. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

Replies Author Date 443 Re: brent's book carlmbentley@y... Wed 11/28/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Mon Nov 26, 2001 7:30 pm
Subject: Steel boat construction in Vancouver BC??

I am in the process of completing someone else's 'dream' in the form of a 35' steel boat. The project had stalled because of the usual lack of funds, but this has changed and I am now eager to proceed. I had lined up a great guy with a portable welding rig who knew boatbuilding, but now he is off to Alberta because of a lack of work here. Given the time of year and the fact that sandblasting/coating will take place right after the steel work is completed, I am looking to do the work inside, which means moving the boat from the outside storage its in, to either a yard or some other inside space. Does anyone out there have recommendations for either a welder/boatbuilder or a small yard that might be suitable for this project? I'm not looking for the 'cheapest' or the 'best', but rather, a good, solid person/yard to finish things off. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Stephen

Replies Author Date 431 Re: Steel boat construction in Vancouver BC?? Russ Ashworth Tue 11/27/2001
From: Russ Ashworth <russa@s...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 12:17 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel boat construction in Vancouver BC??

Steve,
Try Reed Point Marina. They have some covered spaces.
Russ

At 11:30 AM 11/26/01 -0800, you wrote:

I am in the process of completing someone else's 'dream' in the form of a 35' steel boat.� The project had stalled because of the usual lack of funds, but this has changed and I am now eager to proceed. I had lined up a great guy with a portable welding rig who knew boatbuilding, but now he is off to Alberta because of a lack of work here.� Given the time of year and the fact that sandblasting/coating will take place right after the steel work is completed, I am looking to do the work inside, which means moving the boat from the outside storage its in, to either a yard or some other inside space. Does anyone out there have recommendations for either a welder/boatbuilder or a small yard that might be suitable for this project?� I'm not looking for the 'cheapest' or the 'best', but rather, a good, solid person/yard to finish things off. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Stephen
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Russ Ashworth

"Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling. From: Russ Ashworth <russa@s...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:17 am
Subject: Dickinson Stove

Hi all, As some of you know I had planned to build myself a boat and in preparation I bought an old Dickinson diesel stove to rebuild and play with so that it would be ready to fit as soon as I got the deck on (or sooner). :) It has been completely gutted and rebuilt with new burner, baffles, fire bricks etc and it works fine. Meanwhile my wife said that there is no way that I am ever going to build a big boat like that and in any case we don't have the space to build it so go and get a little one and go sailing. Which is what I did. Hey, if your wife told you to go and buy a boat, what would you do?:) Well,I am now the proud owner of an 18' 6"F/G twin keel Alacrity sailboat... and a Dickinson stove. Try as I might I can't figure out how to fit the stove in the boat. So, if anybody would like to make me an offer for the stove or would like to trade for a small flued kerosene stove (and I do mean small) just give me a call. I am in Vancouver. Russ Ashworth "Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling.

Replies Author Date 439 Re: Dickinson Stove Doug Barnard Tue 11/27/2001
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 1:26 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dickinson Stove

Russ,

    Be careful of those diesel heaters they put carbon in the air. You will find yourself cleaning a certain amount of soot. I am nearly 70 years old and have known many people who have lived aboard for long periods of time. I know several who have lung problems from such stoves. At least that's what they are claiming. I suspect mildew could be a cause also. Anyway its worth being careful. Lots of ventilation!!

                                                    Doug Pollard

----- Original Message -----

From: Russ Ashworth

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 8:17 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Dickinson Stove

Hi all, As some of you know I had planned to build myself a boat and in preparation I bought an old Dickinson diesel stove to rebuild and play with so that it would be ready to fit as soon as I got the deck on (or sooner). :) It has been completely gutted and rebuilt with new burner, baffles, fire bricks etc and it works fine. Meanwhile my wife said that there is no way that I am ever going to build a big boat like that and in any case we don't have the space to build it so go and get a little one and go sailing. Which is what I did. Hey, if your wife told you to go and buy a boat, what would you do?:) Well,I am now the proud owner of an 18' 6"F/G twin keel Alacrity sailboat... and a Dickinson stove. Try as I might I can't figure out how to fit the stove in the boat. So, if anybody would like to make me an offer for the stove or would like to trade for a small flued kerosene stove (and I do mean small) just give me a call. I am in Vancouver. Russ Ashworth "Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling.

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From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:33 am
Subject: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

A lot of people blame the machines they live with for damaging their health, while paying little attention to basic maintenance of said machines -- an age old problem that is most prevalent in our treatment of automobiles, but extends to all areas of our lives.

My general impression is that Dickenson stoves are quite well made and don't create soot if the fuel is properly combusting in the burning chamber (the pot). Also, in a properly functioning stove there is no output of soot into the boat interior -- that's what the flue pipe is for!  The main way to get such a problem would be from having A) a faulty, gummed up carbeurator and B) a blocked flue pipe or flue pipe with too many bends and turns, constricting the draft. What usually happens is that people use the stove for years and years without maintaining it, expecting all the while that it should function perfectly, then they blame the stove when it ceases to function properly. Even heating systems in houses need periodic maintenance, yet people persist in ignoring their maintenance, to their peril when they feel dizzy from carbon monoxide poisoning. Living aboard requires that one maintain the systems upon which you depend so that such problems as under-carbeuration don't occur. That is, "a machine is only as good as the human maintaining (or not maintaining) it!".

Alex Christie

(moderator)

----- Original Message -----

From: Douglas Pollard

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:26 PM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dickinson Stove

Russ,

    Be careful of those diesel heaters they put carbon in the air. You will find yourself cleaning a certain amount of soot. I am nearly 70 years old and have known many people who have lived aboard for long periods of time. I know several who have lung problems from such stoves. At least that's what they are claiming. I suspect mildew could be a cause also. Anyway its worth being careful. Lots of ventilation!!

                                                    Doug Pollard

Replies Author Date 435 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al Douglas Pollard Tue 11/27/2001 437 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al Alex & Kim Christie Tue 11/27/2001 438 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al Russ Ashworth Tue 11/27/2001 442 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al rct_51@h... Wed 11/28/2001 467 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al brentswain38@h... Tue 12/4/2001 468 Re: material Robert.Biegler@s... Tue 12/4/2001 472 Re: material rct_51@h... Wed 12/5/2001 473 Re: material Doug Barnard Wed 12/5/2001 474 Re: material batsondbelfrey Wed 12/5/2001
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:53 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Alex,

    You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.

    All it takes is a gust of wind across a ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.

    What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful."

                                                                    Doug

----- Original Message -----

From: Alex & Kim Christie

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 10:33 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

A lot of people blame the machines they live with for damaging their health, while paying little attention to basic maintenance of said machines -- an age old problem that is most prevalent in our treatment of automobiles, but extends to all areas of our lives.

My general impression is that Dickenson stoves are quite well made and don't create soot if the fuel is properly combusting in the burning chamber (the pot). Also, in a properly functioning stove there is no output of soot into the boat interior -- that's what the flue pipe is for!  The main way to get such a problem would be from having A) a faulty, gummed up carbeurator and B) a blocked flue pipe or flue pipe with too many bends and turns, constricting the draft. What usually happens is that people use the stove for years and years without maintaining it, expecting all the while that it should function perfectly, then they blame the stove when it ceases to function properly. Even heating systems in houses need periodic maintenance, yet people persist in ignoring their maintenance, to their peril when they feel dizzy from carbon monoxide poisoning. Living aboard requires that one maintain the systems upon which you depend so that such problems as under-carbeuration don't occur. That is, "a machine is only as good as the human maintaining (or not maintaining) it!".

Alex Christie

(moderator)

----- Original Message -----

From: Douglas Pollard

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 5:26 PM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dickinson Stove

Russ,

    Be careful of those diesel heaters they put carbon in the air. You will find yourself cleaning a certain amount of soot. I am nearly 70 years old and have known many people who have lived aboard for long periods of time. I know several who have lung problems from such stoves. At least that's what they are claiming. I suspect mildew could be a cause also. Anyway its worth being careful. Lots of ventilation!!

                                                    Doug Pollard

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From: Russ Ashworth <russa@s...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:13 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book

At 12:20 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Stephen wrote:
The book is available all year round and is well worth the price.� It's thin, but full of new ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". Stephen Brent's book is well worth the money for the philosophy alone even if you are not building an origami steel boat. It will give you a new view on what is important, what to spend your money on, and how the modern boat manufacturing industry is conning the average boater out of 1000s of dollars. So if you've got barrels of money to burn then don't read the book, otherwise..:) Russ Ashworth "Nobody could have designed the Chinese Sail, if only for fear of being laughed at." Brian Platt, The Chinese Sail. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 5:54 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot. So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them. (I use propane!)

Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment. In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had). All this just goes right into the living quarters. Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew? Anyone have some experience with this?

Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

----- Original Message -----

From: Douglas Pollard

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 PM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Alex,

    You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.

    All it takes is a gust of wind across a ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.

    What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful."

                                                                    Doug

Replies Author Date 438 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al Russ Ashworth Tue 11/27/2001 442 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al rct_51@h... Wed 11/28/2001 467 Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al brentswain38@h... Tue 12/4/2001 468 Re: material Robert.Biegler@s... Tue 12/4/2001 472 Re: material rct_51@h... Wed 12/5/2001 473 Re: material Doug Barnard Wed 12/5/2001 474 Re: material batsondbelfrey Wed 12/5/2001 506 Re: material ravensoars2001 Thu 1/3/2002 481 Re: material dr01allen Thu 12/6/2001
From: Russ Ashworth <russa@s...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Running a seperate inlet from the deck to near the stove, having enough flue hight and a reasonably straight run all help too as they would with a solid fuel stove. A friend of mine had a Dickenson that often smoked but his flue was only 4 ft high and exited on the side dech below cabin top level. Plus he had a but solid dodger.
You might also like to check out this site about balenced flues.
http://www.nbasic.demon.co.uk/sailing/balflues.htm

Other reasons for keeping the engine in a separate compartment are fire safety and to keep the bilges dry in the event that the cutlass bearing (constant drips) or a through hull leaks.
Russ

At 09:54 PM 11/26/01 -0800, Alex wrote:

I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot.� So do take Doug's advice, be careful how�you use them.� (I use propane!)
�
Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment.� In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and�even exhaust leaks from around the head�(at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had).� All this just goes right into the living quarters.� Doesn't it make sense to�seal off the engine from the rest of the crew?� Anyone have some experience with this?
�
Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins.�
�
Alex Christie
�
(moderator)

----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Pollard

Alex,
�� You are exactly right�and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used�it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace,�but�use gun type burners which are�probably the ultimate in efficiency�use scrubbers to clean their stacks.
�� All it takes is a gust of wind across a� ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.�
�� What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test.��I am not saying don't use one I'm saying,�"Be careful."��
�� Doug�
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 7:41 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Dickinson Stove

> > So, if anybody would like to make me an offer for the stove or would like > to trade for a small flued kerosene stove (and I do mean small) just give > me a call. I am in Vancouver. Man, you just wanted to sell a stove and you got tons of environmental grief! Anyway, what model is it? Any ideas as to what it's worth? Think that shipping to So. Cal. would be worth it? Thanks! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler 818-991-9328 From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2001 10:40 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Alex,

    I have also wondered about diesel fumes. It does seem to me that there are respiratory problems among a lot of long term live aboards. Since we are on this subject I'd like to say that gassing batteries in the boat that are not vented overboard may be a health risk. Mine are under the settee I have six of them. I presently use Gel cell batteries all though I think they gas some too. Besides that I originally used Prevailers but since they have been bought out by an American company I have not been able to get more than about 30 months out of any I have bought. I have been told by a battery salesman that the company that bought them out did not by the process under which they were manufactured. Who knows?

    So a separate engine compartment with batteries in it, except for the heat problem might be a good idea.

    Another thing I think is a problem is the wooden interiors put in most boats. Mold grows between the inner and outer hulls. You can't see it and you can't get rid of it easily. I insulated the hull on my boat thinking there would be no sweating and therefore no mold. That didn't work.

    I would make all interior wooden sections in the hull and overhead removable so they could be cleaned every couple of years.

    I watched a man with tears in his eyes put a forsale sign on his boat because the doctor told him that he was going to die if he didn't get off of it

    Also keep those Radar units up high and take care with the poison bottom paints.

     Anyway that's all I know ,or think I know about this dreary subject.

       LIVE LONG AND SAIL FAR..                                                Doug Pollard

----- Original Message -----

From: Alex & Kim Christie

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:54 AM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot. So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them. (I use propane!)

Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment. In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had). All this just goes right into the living quarters. Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew? Anyone have some experience with this?

Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

----- Original Message -----

From: Douglas Pollard

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 PM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Alex,

    You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.

    All it takes is a gust of wind across a ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.

    What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful."

                                                                    Doug

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From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2001 12:31 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Rus,

    That's a good site. He may have worked out a good solution. A little vacuum in the boat wouldn't seem to make any difference to the stove at all.

                                                        Doug

----- Original Message -----

From: Russ Ashworth

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:16 AM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Running a seperate inlet from the deck to near the stove, having enough flue hight and a reasonably straight run all help too as they would with a solid fuel stove. A friend of mine had a Dickenson that often smoked but his flue was only 4 ft high and exited on the side dech below cabin top level. Plus he had a but solid dodger.
You might also like to check out this site about balenced flues.
http://www.nbasic.demon.co.uk/sailing/balflues.htm

Other reasons for keeping the engine in a separate compartment are fire safety and to keep the bilges dry in the event that the cutlass bearing (constant drips) or a through hull leaks.
Russ

At 09:54 PM 11/26/01 -0800, Alex wrote:

I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot. So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them. (I use propane!)

Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment. In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had). All this just goes right into the living quarters. Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew? Anyone have some experience with this?

Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins.

Alex Christie

(moderator)

----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Pollard

Alex,
    You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.
    All it takes is a gust of wind across a ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.
    What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful."
                                                                    Doug

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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From: rct_51@h...
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2001 1:06 am
Subject: Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

Alex: how did you engineer the separate engine compartment? I am interested in researching this. Diesel has much to recommend it as a safer power source--living with it when you are not running it seems to be the challenge. As I mentioned before, i have developed a significant intollerance to the stuff. Still putting the keel on between rain storms so it's not a crucial issue yet. Thanks, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot. So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them. (I use propane!) > > Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment. In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had). All this just goes right into the living quarters. Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew? Anyone have some experience with this? > > Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Douglas Pollard > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al > > > Alex, > You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks. > All it takes is a gust of wind across a ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft. > What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test. I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful." > Doug From: carlmbentley@y...
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:45 pm
Subject: Re: brent's book

no word from brent yet ? can anyone provide the most recent working address for ordering the book, i'll take my chances. -carl --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > The price for Brent's book to a US address is $20 US, plus $3.00 shipping. > Brent may confirm this shortly, as well as the address question (I have > Campbell River as his mailing address). > > Regards, > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book > > > > I believe the address you have is an older address. Brent's own recent > > directions to me were: > > > > > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage (prefer > > money > > > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > > > Thanks. > > > Brent Swain > > > > This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy. Send him > > US$20 and you will probably get free postage. The book is available all > > year round and is well worth the price. It's thin, but full of new > > ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". > > > > Stephen From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2001 8:53 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: brent's book

As below, my directions from Brent were to mail $20 plus $3 postage (US funds apparently accepted at par) to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 This is his parent's house and they apparently are handling this for Brent. It is where I went to buy my copy when I visited the Island. Stephen carlmbentley@y... wrote: > no word from brent yet ? > can anyone provide the most recent working address for ordering the > book, i'll take my chances. > > -carl > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> > wrote: > > The price for Brent's book to a US address is $20 US, plus $3.00 > shipping. > > Brent may confirm this shortly, as well as the address question (I > have > > Campbell River as his mailing address). > > > > Regards, > > > > Alex Christie > > > > (moderator) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:20 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book > > > > > > > I believe the address you have is an older address. Brent's own > recent > > > directions to me were: > > > > > > > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage > (prefer > > > money > > > > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > > > > Thanks. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy. Send > him > > > US$20 and you will probably get free postage. The book is > available all > > > year round and is well worth the price. It's thin, but full of > new > > > ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". > > > > > > Stephen > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2001 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: brent's book

The Royston address should work fine, it is his father's place, and I think he checks in there regularly. Alex > no word from brent yet ? > can anyone provide the most recent working address for ordering the > book, i'll take my chances. > > -carl > From: david@t...
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2001 7:09 am
Subject: Sailing Ability

Hi all There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they are and how they perform in a storm. I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what are they like for cruising. Looking forward to your replies. David

Replies Author Date 448 Re: Sailing Ability Michael Casling Thu 11/29/2001 457 Re: Sailing Ability david@t... Fri 11/30/2001 470 Re: Sailing Ability brentswain38@h... Tue 12/4/2001 453 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard Mark_Schlichting@h... Fri 11/30/2001 455 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard david@t... Fri 11/30/2001 456 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard david@t... Fri 11/30/2001 459 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard paull01@y... Sat 12/1/2001 469 Re: Sailing Ability brentswain38@h... Tue 12/4/2001 471 origami cats, design book Jim Phillips Tue 12/4/2001

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From: "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...>
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2001 9:10 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Sailing Ability

David, are you in New Zealand if so may I ask where? If you are in NZ I would like to here your thoughts on the designs and construction types currently available. Also what would you be comparing the Swain boat to that is available locally. I was in NZ 1948 to 1968 and have made several trips back. My brother owns a Lotus 10.6 in Tutukaka. I am most familiar with the Bo Birdsall designs and was going to get one built in Auckland in the early 80's but I got married in 1984, bought property and kept my Tanzer 8.5 which is of solid fiberglass construction. The Swain designs are of interest to me based on initial cost plus the total time involved to build. I am a fin keel fan but must admit that the twin keels and rudder skeg make it easy to beach and clean the bottom. What attracted me to the Birdsall design was the overall performance, to be able to break out of the displacement mode off the wind, but probably at the expense of comfort on the wind. At 17000 lbs for a 36 foot boat the Swain would be solid into the seas. As a cruiser the depth of the hull would be a benefit and in my opinion I do not think the hard chine would make much difference. The people who have sailed on the 36 can provide more input on this. The other consideration is the living comfort inside in different weather conditions. Vancouver BC is similar to Wellington in terms of temperature and rain but not as windy. It does seem as though a wooden boat or even fiberglass would be more cosy in lousy weather. Again the Vancouver sailors can answer that question. You have also asked the question about sailing performance ( I have my theories based on my own experience and think it would sail similar to my current boat but with the advantages of being larger and having a longer LWL ) but I also look forward to the replies from Brent and or others.

Michael Casling T8.5 #13 Gently     Kelowna BC   caslingm@silk.net

-----Original Message-----
From: david@thebookkeeper.co.nz <david@thebookkeeper.co.nz>
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:10 PM
Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing Ability

Hi all There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they are and how they perform in a storm. I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what are they like for cruising. Looking forward to your replies. David

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Replies Author Date 457 Re: Sailing Ability david@t... Fri 11/30/2001 470 Re: Sailing Ability brentswain38@h... Tue 12/4/2001

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From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2001 9:58 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: brent's book

I would like to order Brent's book also, if I could find out how to, and what charge there would be for airmail to Australia. Regards, Richard Payne.

Replies Author Date 451 Re: brent's book Jes�sAlbor�s Fri 11/30/2001
From: "Jes�s" "Albor�s" <alborey@y...>
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2001 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: brent's book

Richard, I write you from Spain. I asked for Brent's book, enclosing US$30 (20 for the book, 10 for the airmail postage), at the following adress: 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC V0R2V0 Canada That was about a week ago; today Brent email me saying the book was sent a couple of dayys ago. So, this is the right adress, and the answer comes very promptly. I wish Amazon would be near so quick as Brent. Regards, Jesus __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

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From: Mark_Schlichting@h...
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2001 8:33 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard

My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while completing the interior. It's great! We moved from my old 35' Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least 30% more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too). Because the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the settees we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel). With our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with demand propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on. We specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a open and spacious feeling interior. The 6'2" headroom certainly helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin. We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising we've done so far has shown the boat to perform very well. We went with a 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely. We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design performs in offshore conditions. Shinola's windward beat back to NZ by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other boats cruising in company. The submarine type companionway hatch creates a watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a turtle hatch. I believe passage times on the Brents is quite respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore experience to comment on that first-hand. --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David

Replies Author Date 455 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard david@t... Fri 11/30/2001 456 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard david@t... Fri 11/30/2001 459 Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard paull01@y... Sat 12/1/2001

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From: david@t...
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2001 11:14 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard

Mark Many thanks for the comments. The boats and their method of construction are great. I am sending away for Brents book so I can find out more about them. I looks forward to hearing more about their sailing ability. Regards David --- In origamiboats@y..., Mark_Schlichting@h... wrote: > My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to > live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while > completing the interior. It's great! We moved from my old 35' > Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least 30% > more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width > (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too). Because > the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the settees > we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel). With > our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver > Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with demand > propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on. We > specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white > painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a > open and spacious feeling interior. The 6'2" headroom certainly > helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin. > > We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising we've > done so far has shown the boat to perform very well. We went with a > 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used > Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely. > > We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design > performs in offshore conditions. Shinola's windward beat back to NZ > by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other boats > cruising in company. The submarine type companionway hatch creates a > watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a > turtle hatch. I believe passage times on the Brents is quite > respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore > experience to comment on that first-hand. > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I > have > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable > they > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that > is > > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David From: david@t...
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2001 11:16 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard

Mark Many thanks for the comments. The boats and their method of construction are great. I am sending away for Brents book so I can find out more about them. I looks forward to hearing more about their sailing ability. Regards David --- In origamiboats@y..., Mark_Schlichting@h... wrote: > My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to > live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while > completing the interior. It's great! We moved from my old 35' > Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least 30% > more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width > (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too). Because > the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the settees > we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel). With > our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver > Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with demand > propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on. We > specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white > painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a > open and spacious feeling interior. The 6'2" headroom certainly > helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin. > > We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising we've > done so far has shown the boat to perform very well. We went with a > 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used > Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely. > > We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design > performs in offshore conditions. Shinola's windward beat back to NZ > by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other boats > cruising in company. The submarine type companionway hatch creates a > watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a > turtle hatch. I believe passage times on the Brents is quite > respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore > experience to comment on that first-hand. > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I > have > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable > they > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that > is > > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David From: david@t...
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2001 11:26 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability

Mike Thanks for the reply. Yes I live in Auckland New Zealand. I have sailed on a Lotus 10.6 and found them to be a lovely boat. I currently sail a 25 foot lift keel trailer yacht. I am looking at cruising yachts for a planned cruise around the world. I have several options, buy an existing boat and refit her or build a new boat. I am not sure what option I will settle on yet, it depends on finances and wether anything suitable is around at the time. I like the strength of steel but was not sure about the construction. Broberts kitset boats were appealing due to their method of construction. I have also been looking at Michael Kasten designs due to their traditional looks. His ideas on gaf rig is also appealing due to the simple rig and low stresses. David --- In origamiboats@y..., "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...> wrote: > David, are you in New Zealand if so may I ask where? If you are in NZ I would like to here your thoughts on the designs and construction types currently available. Also what would you be comparing the Swain boat to that is available locally. I was in NZ 1948 to 1968 and have made several trips back. My brother owns a Lotus 10.6 in Tutukaka. I am most familiar with the Bo Birdsall designs and was going to get one built in Auckland in the early 80's but I got married in 1984, bought property and kept my Tanzer 8.5 which is of solid fiberglass construction. The Swain designs are of interest to me based on initial cost plus the total time involved to build. I am a fin keel fan but must admit that the twin keels and rudder skeg make it easy to beach and clean the bottom. What attracted me to the Birdsall design was the overall performance, to be able to break out of the displacement mode off the wind, but probably at the expense of comfort on the wind. At 17000 lbs for a 36 foot boat the Swain would be solid into the seas. As a cruiser the depth of the hull would be a benefit and in my opinion I do not think the hard chine would make much difference. The people who have sailed on the 36 can provide more input on this. The other consideration is the living comfort inside in different weather conditions. Vancouver BC is similar to Wellington in terms of temperature and rain but not as windy. It does seem as though a wooden boat or even fiberglass would be more cosy in lousy weather. Again the Vancouver sailors can answer that question. You have also asked the question about sailing performance ( I have my theories based on my own experience and think it would sail similar to my current boat but with the advantages of being larger and having a longer LWL ) but I also look forward to the replies from Brent and or others. > Michael Casling T8.5 #13 Gently Kelowna BC caslingm@s... > -----Original Message----- > From: david@t... <david@t...> > To: origamiboats@y... <origamiboats@y...> > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing Ability > > > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: rct_51@h...
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2001 2:02 am
Subject: Re: virus warning

My program picked up a so called "as yet incurable" virus in Doug's last message. I deleted it instantly. Hope no one else got infected. Poor weather for building. I'm turning out pulleys for blocks out of UHMW plastic using a neat device I borrowed to bolt onto the bed plate of my drill press. Then i got some free time on a milling machine--makes an awsome finish. So far the cost of the pulleys has amounted to some minor scrounging expeditions. Picked up a Dickenson propane stove for a decent price. Got to build a pump for the head next. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > I don't know why, but Doug Pollard's emails always come to me with the > message blank does anyone else have that problem?. > Regards, > Richard Payne, From: paull01@y...
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2001 6:17 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard

Hi Mark and Jean. Those are real inspiring words for those of us who are planning and saving up for the kind of lifestyle you are already living. I realize how important it is to be able to have a shower inside in a climate where one is unable to have a sunshower out on deck or in the cockpit. Do you think you could send a sketch of your layout to the Files section? I am interested in seeing how you incorporate a shower stall into the design. Perhaps you could send some pictures as well? If you don't have a scanner or computer access to upload the files, just drop me an email and I could upload them for you if you send the sketches or photos to me in the mail. I'd send them back to you after I uploaded them. Also, does anyone know if Brent has incorporated a shower into his 31 footer? Paul Woodinville, WA --- In origamiboats@y..., Mark_Schlichting@h... wrote: > My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to > live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while > completing the interior. It's great! We moved from my old 35' > Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least 30% > more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width > (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too). Because > the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the settees > we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel). With > our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver > Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with demand > propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on. We > specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white > painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a > open and spacious feeling interior. The 6'2" headroom certainly > helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin. > > We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising we've > done so far has shown the boat to perform very well. We went with a > 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used > Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely. > > We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design > performs in offshore conditions. Shinola's windward beat back to NZ > by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other boats > cruising in company. The submarine type companionway hatch creates a > watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a > turtle hatch. I believe passage times on the Brents is quite > respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore > experience to comment on that first-hand. > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I > have > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable > they > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that > is > > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David From: paull01@y...
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2001 6:41 pm
Subject: Re: Shaler Junk engine

Hi Evan. Thanks for all the info on your design and a description of the Origami process used by Brent. I was kind of hoping you were using design techniques that were inline with the philosophy and methods used in the construction process. I've been toying with the idea of an origami approach to Bolger's 35' Volunteer. It already has a (flat) steel bottom. I'm sure there would be a way (for mere mortals) to come up with a folding version of this type of design. I think the approach of making a model of the original - and working from that - makes the most sense. Bolger achieves a 2' draft with the use of leeboards. I'd also be interested in seeing the lines of your junk. Do you think you could post a 3-view to the Files section? If you don't have access to a scanner and computer, I could upload them for you if you sent me the sketches. I'm also interested in the length and beam and any other details about the rigging etc. you'd care to include. I know there was a nice coffee table book put out on China Moon. Do you know what the title is and if it's still published? Paul Woodinville, WA -- In origamiboats@y..., evanmoonjunk@y... wrote: > Here are some answers to the questions flying around. The basic > construction is based on Brent's method with variations. All the > components are pulled together the same way except the bottom of the > hull. When I came up with the idea of building this boat(a long time > ago) I spent a great deal of time talking to Allen about China Cloud, > pros and cons etc. He insisted that a flat bottom was important so I > incorporated that into the design. So instead of a V as in Brent's > boats there is a section in the bottom that is flat(with a curve fore > and aft) that is shaped like the bottom of a dory.This made for > interesting challenges pulling 3 plates together for the hull but it > worked. If I was to do it again I would do it with a shallow V for > ease of construction and to get a bilge area which I don't have much > of now. > At the time that I conceived the idea to build this boat I had > already built quite a few of Brent's boats and wanted the challenge > of building something a little different. I developed the concept the > same that Brent did, with cardboard models. Allen had a wooden half > model of China Cloud plus his lines and ofsets(which are also in the > book about China Cloud, "Sailing back in time"). I started off with > half inch to the foot models geting the shape as close as I could to > the half model(about 7 of these) and then went to 1 inch to the foot > (3 of these). From the final model I was abel to take accurate > measuerments to make scale drawings from which I could loft out the > hull, decks etc. > The boat draws about 4' 10". It is a lot heavier than China Cloud > because of steel, Engine, fuel tanks, twice as much water etc. I also > wanted to go deeper draft(extra 18") for better windward performance > which it did accomplish. The keels are bigger than I should have > gone. The length of them was based on China Cloud forgetting at the > time that a wood boat needs a lot more strutural support than a steel > boat. Oh well live and learn! There is 200 gallons of water in the > keels plus 2000 lbs of lead plus a sump in each end. > > Yes there is an engine as in my last boat (a Brent 31') I could not > afford one ,this time I wanted one. I originally was going to go > hydraulic drive, but as I could not afford that either I settled for > an ancient 2 cylinder Hercules(circa 1945) > The rudder is fixed on a skeg using all the same methods as on > Brents boats. If you have any more questions feel free to ask and I > will be happy to answer them.....Evan

Replies Author Date 466 adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine) Doug Barnard Sun 12/2/2001
From: paull01@y...
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2001 6:49 pm
Subject: Oops

Evan, I see the title for the book "Sailing Back in Time" was right in your post. (And my reply). I think I'd better get some breakfast. Paul

Replies Author Date 462 Re: Oops Stephen Wandling Sat 12/1/2001
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sat Dec 1, 2001 8:37 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Oops

There is also the Dan Rubin book "Salt on the Wind: The Sailing Life of Allen & Sharie Farrell" if you want a more in-depth account of the Farrell's incredible lives on the BC coast. Chapters has it but Amazon doesn't. Figures. http://chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=Books&Section=Books&Cat=&Lang=en&Item\ =978092066346&mscssid=KUG0S8V0G6J38LPT9QC3N10FP889DV1D&WSID=151299420C60FD904A7F\ A154BB49FCBD008C3501 paull01@y... wrote: > Evan, > > I see the title for the book "Sailing Back in Time" was right in your > post. (And my reply). I think I'd better get some breakfast. > > Paul > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Dec 2, 2001 8:34 pm
Subject: adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine)

> -----Original Message----- > From: paull01@y... [mailto:paull01@y...] <snip> > I'm sure there would be a way (for mere mortals) > to come up with a folding version of this type of design. <snip> Thanks to the great efforts of List member Gary Lewis, I've tried some of his methods using Rhino 3D, and had less than rousing success. I'm paraphrasing here, but so far the two of us have found that the "split orange peel" look of Brent's plate development is pretty much specific to sleek sailing hulls. Junks and trawlers, with their more rounded bows, require more splits, or going to more of a strip approach. Gary turned me on to Van De Stadt, who also has a "speed building" approach. Frankly, it amazed me that in the whole wide world, only two guys have said, "Hey, this boatbuilding thing sure takes a long time!" Anyway, I've sent away for more materials, and the brand new book written be Van De Stadt about his designs. I'll report back to the list when the goodies arrive; as they'll be coming in from Holland, it might take awhile. I had good success with assembling a paper model of my trawler design. I've also refined the interior/exterior, and completed virtual flythrus of the exterior, interior and below decks. Next, I'll try for a larger scale model that incorporates a "bustle" (integrated swim step) and all of the cabin. Basically, everything that I'd have CNC cut. There was a disturbing note in the Rhino help file about a lack of precision *sometimes* when unrolling surfaces. Whoever wrote it said that *sometimes* it would produce unfair plates. No mention was made as to how to avoid this calamity, whether the plates had to re-cut, and just how bad the funkiness was. I'm also assuming that this poor fellow was trying to assemble the bogus plates on to a standard frame. The great thing about the folded steel approach is that it tends to be self-correcting, by pulling the gap together instead of leaving a gap that you could throw a cat through. So I'm not too freaked out by these events. From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al

On fishboats they have a saying "air in-air out" They install a fan blowing air into the engine compartment and another blowing air out. I think that a big one hooked up to the ignition switch, taking air out would be adequate, but the resulting vacuum in the cabin can cause serious downdraft problems for your stove if you don't let enough back in. Another solution , used on the Fab-all stoves ,is to have a separate , outside air intake for the stove. That way the stove burns only outside air and is sealed from the cabin. Any downdrafts on the boat put the same pressure on both the chimney and the air intake simultaneously. The first manufacturer of oil stoves which uses titanium for burner pots is going to be popular. When the Russian military collapsed , titanium production was cheap, so they re-directed it to civilian use . I've heard that you can go into a hardware store in Russia and buy a titanium shovel or garden rake for cheap.I've also heard that the Russian pilots are the people to talk to for Russian contacts if you want to import anything from there .A company could order titanium pots from Russia for less than they are now paying in the west for stainless. A titanium pot would last forever. Any oilstove manufacturers listening? Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot. So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them. (I use propane!) > > Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment. In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had). All this just goes right into the living quarters. Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew? Anyone have some experience with this? > > Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Douglas Pollard > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al > > > Alex, > You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks. > All it takes is a gust of wind across a ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft. > What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test. I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful." > Doug

Replies Author Date 468 Re: material Robert.Biegler@s... Tue 12/4/2001 472 Re: material rct_51@h... Wed 12/5/2001 473 Re: material Doug Barnard Wed 12/5/2001 474 Re: material batsondbelfrey Wed 12/5/2001 506 Re: material ravensoars2001 Thu 1/3/2002 481 Re: material dr01allen Thu 12/6/2001
From: Robert.Biegler@s...
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 7:57 pm
Subject: Re: material

--- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: > The first manufacturer of oil stoves which uses titanium for > burner pots is going to be popular. There was a short note on a science website about half a year ago that a process had been developed by which one can get titanium from the oxide through electrolysis, same as with aluminium (don't ask me how they get titanium at the moment; apparently it takes even more energy). So I hope that in 5 to 10 years, titanium should come down to a price not far above that of aluminium. If that ever does happen, it'll be the day of titanium hulls, assuming welding is not any more difficult than with aluminium. Regards Robert

Replies Author Date 472 Re: material rct_51@h... Wed 12/5/2001 473 Re: material Doug Barnard Wed 12/5/2001 474 Re: material batsondbelfrey Wed 12/5/2001 506 Re: material ravensoars2001 Thu 1/3/2002 481 Re: material dr01allen Thu 12/6/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 8:13 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability

One of my 36 footers sailed accross the atlantic from the canaries to the west indies , 2200 miles in 14 days . Another sailing west from Mexico to Hawaii covered 1006 miles in 6 1/2 days , beating into a 25 knot northwesterly. Another sailed from Sooke BC to San Francisco in 5 1/2 days. One owner built a 36 footer and sailed it around the Pacific, then built one of my 26 footers and sailed it through the Northwest passage, then built another one of my 36 footers to cruise the Pacific in again. His daughter is building one of my 26 footers. He wouldn't want any other design. Several owners have built several of my designs for themselves, and put a lot of sea miles on them.Most wouldn't even consider anything else . They sail well and with the more traditional hull shape are very comfortable at sea. Everyone I know who has built one of my designs and followed the plans has been very happy with them. Those who don't follow the plans are not my responsibility. All who I have worked for are still the best of friends. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David

Replies Author Date 471 origami cats, design book Jim Phillips Tue 12/4/2001 476 Re: origami cats, design book mat_man22 Wed 12/5/2001 485 Re: origami cats, design book brentswain38 Sat 12/8/2001
From: brentswain38@h...
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 8:20 pm
Subject: Re: Sailing Ability

A well insulated steel boat would be much more comfortable in cold weather. There is no comparison between the insulating abilities of wood and sprayfoam insulation, sprayfoam is a much better insulator, and a steel boat is much drier;more watertight. Deck leaks on a well built steel boats are unheard of . They are the rule rather than the exception on older wooden boats . There is also a great deal of comfort in the form of peace of mind in a steel hull. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@y..., "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...> wrote: > David, are you in New Zealand if so may I ask where? If you are in NZ I would like to here your thoughts on the designs and construction types currently available. Also what would you be comparing the Swain boat to that is available locally. I was in NZ 1948 to 1968 and have made several trips back. My brother owns a Lotus 10.6 in Tutukaka. I am most familiar with the Bo Birdsall designs and was going to get one built in Auckland in the early 80's but I got married in 1984, bought property and kept my Tanzer 8.5 which is of solid fiberglass construction. The Swain designs are of interest to me based on initial cost plus the total time involved to build. I am a fin keel fan but must admit that the twin keels and rudder skeg make it easy to beach and clean the bottom. What attracted me to the Birdsall design was the overall performance, to be able to break out of the displacement mode off the wind, but probably at the expense of comfort on the wind. At 17000 lbs for a 36 foot boat the Swain would be solid into the seas. As a cruiser the depth of the hull would be a benefit and in my opinion I do not think the hard chine would make much difference. The people who have sailed on the 36 can provide more input on this. The other consideration is the living comfort inside in different weather conditions. Vancouver BC is similar to Wellington in terms of temperature and rain but not as windy. It does seem as though a wooden boat or even fiberglass would be more cosy in lousy weather. Again the Vancouver sailors can answer that question. You have also asked the question about sailing performance ( I have my theories based on my own experience and think it would sail similar to my current boat but with the advantages of being larger and having a longer LWL ) but I also look forward to the replies from Brent and or others. > Michael Casling T8.5 #13 Gently Kelowna BC caslingm@s... > -----Original Message----- > From: david@t... <david@t...> > To: origamiboats@y... <origamiboats@y...> > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing Ability > > > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around the world in my > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is > only part of the equation. What are they like to live on and what > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2001 11:15 pm
Subject: origami cats, design book

Brent, I was wondering how I could purchase your design book. Do you design multihulls? After owning monos and sailing about 30 000 miles from Oz to the Med and around the Caribbean, we are now back in Australia and looking to build an aluminium cat via a frameless method over the next few years. Any info about your method and your design book would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Jim. --- brentswain38@h... wrote: > One of my 36 footers sailed accross the atlantic > from the canaries > to the west indies , 2200 miles in 14 days . Another > sailing west > from Mexico to Hawaii covered 1006 miles in 6 1/2 > days , beating into > a 25 knot northwesterly. > Another sailed from Sooke BC to San Francisco in 5 > 1/2 days. > One owner built a 36 footer and sailed it around > the Pacific, then > built one of my 26 footers and sailed it through the > Northwest > passage, then built another one of my 36 footers to > cruise the > Pacific in again. His daughter is building one of my > 26 footers. He > wouldn't want any other design. > Several owners have built several of my designs > for themselves, and > put a lot of sea miles on them.Most wouldn't even > consider anything > else . They sail well and with the more traditional > hull shape are > very comfortable at sea. Everyone I know who has > built one of my > designs and followed the plans has been very happy > with them. Those > who don't follow the plans are not my > responsibility. > All who I have worked for are still the best of > friends. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents > designs but I > have > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, > how comfortable > they > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it > has wetted my > > desire to find out more. I aim to cruise around > the world in my > > retirement and are currently looking at designs > and constructions > > methods. Bretts method is about the simplest I > have seen but that > is > > only part of the equation. What are they like to > live on and what > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David > > ________________________________________________________________ Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great. Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it! The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.

Replies Author Date 476 Re: origami cats, design book mat_man22 Wed 12/5/2001 485 Re: origami cats, design book brentswain38 Sat 12/8/2001
From: rct_51@h...
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 1:45 am
Subject: Re: material

At present, welding titanium is still regarded as a fairly specialised process--it would be an expensive proposition for the average home builder. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., Robert.Biegler@s... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: > > The first manufacturer of oil stoves which uses titanium for > > burner pots is going to be popular. > > There was a short note on a science website about half a year ago > that a process had been developed by which one can get titanium from > the oxide through electrolysis, same as with aluminium (don't ask me > how they get titanium at the moment; apparently it takes even more > energy). So I hope that in 5 to 10 years, titanium should come down > to a price not far above that of aluminium. If that ever does > happen, it'll be the day of titanium hulls, assuming welding is not > any more difficult than with aluminium. > > Regards > > Robert From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 2:59 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: material

> -----Original Message----- > From: Robert.Biegler@s... [mailto:Robert.Biegler@s...] > If that ever does > happen, it'll be the day of titanium hulls, assuming welding is not > any more difficult than with aluminium. I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That stuff is gnarly! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler

Replies Author Date 474 Re: material batsondbelfrey Wed 12/5/2001 506 Re: material ravensoars2001 Thu 1/3/2002 481 Re: material dr01allen Thu 12/6/2001
From: "batsondbelfrey" <Robert.Biegler@s...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: material

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That > stuff is gnarly! Another nice idea shot down by reality. Sigh. At the moment I know next to nothing about welding, I am reading this group because the method seems interesting and I really *like* the idea of an impact resistant hull. I got an email reply from John Barker, but there was no text. John, your computer may have a case of Badtrans. Regards Robert

Replies Author Date 506 Re: material ravensoars2001 Thu 1/3/2002

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From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2001 10:35 pm
Subject: Re: origami cats, design book

Jim, I am also on the lookout for an aluminum origami catamaran plans and have not found much. I would think the French designers might be a place to look (they are into cats and aluminum). This link is for free (?) 40' origami cat plans. http://www.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/ Please pass on anything you find. Thanks Mat

Replies Author Date 485 Re: origami cats, design book brentswain38 Sat 12/8/2001

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From: Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2001 3:59 am
Subject: origami cats, Brent's book & Tony Bigras

G'day Mat, I had already checked out Tony Bigras' site. I think he is definitely on the right track with his unstayed biplane rig and alum hull - my plans exactly - but, unlike his design thoughts, I don't want to have any structure on the bridge deck. (We're inclined to a (nearly) horizontal alum bimini with solar panels on top that will provide very little wind resistance compared with a central pod but plenty of shade in the tropics.) Although he says he would be interested in talking about all this, I haven't made contact with him yet. His plans are not readily available. As we will not be in a position to build for another year or two, I am using this time to investigate the various methods and designs available. An aluminium Wharram is also a possibility. I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that I may have to design the boat myself using some of the freeware available on the net such as Hulls. In the meantime, do you know how I can get hold of Brent's book? Cheers, Jim. ________________________________________________________________ Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great. Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it! The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.

Replies Author Date 484 Re: origami cats, Brent's book & Tony Bigras mat_man22 Thu 12/6/2001
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2001 8:32 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: brent's book

Thanks Jesus, I will order the book and am most interested to see Brent's approach to things. Regards, Richard. From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2001 2:37 pm
Subject: Re: material

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That stuff is > gnarly! actually TIG with argon can be used without much trouble. C, N, and O will intercalate at temps over 400, if present, so the surfaces need to be clean. check out the various titanium supplier websites for other machining techniques. da

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From: "alex_christie" <ravencoast@t...>
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2001 6:20 pm
Subject: attachments function suspended

Dear Group, I have altered the setting to discard attachments in e-mails so as to avoid any more virus attacks. I'll review this change in a while to see if I should keep it like that in the future. It is certainly one way of keeping the viruses at bay. I have not sent any messages with attachments on purpose, but my computer did after being invaded by the worm. I have gone through the group messages and have deleted any with attachments and/or viruses. We can still share and view photos and text, however, by posting images to the Photos or the Files section. Yahoo scans files as you upload them, I believe, which is why it takes quite some time to upload. Hope this restores some confidence and encourages people to post! I've tweaked my computer to a very high level of security to prevent any attack (I guess a little paranoia is a healthy thing in some cases). Alex Christie (moderator) From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Thu Dec 6, 2001 9:32 pm
Subject: Re: origami cats, Brent's book & Tony Bigras

Jim For Brent's book look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/444 Would be nice if Hulls would do it, but I don't think it will. Output to a plasma cutter would also be nice. Pro-E would work but is expensive and not for "Boat Design". Rhino 3D would be what I would try. They have free demo. (Search in this group for Rhino and CAD) Have you looked at a glass MacGregor 36? http://www.tompatterson.com/Sailing/Sailing/Sailing11.html http://www.mv.com/ipusers/pdelnero/MAC.htm http://www.geocities.com/area51/dunes/6187/ http://www.sailboatowners.com/boats/index.tpl?fno=80 They can be found for under $10K. Mat From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat Dec 8, 2001 10:13 pm
Subject: Re: origami cats, design book

Just take any design for a hard chine catamaran having the displacement you expect,and make a model , then take the plate shapes off the model , or obtain the plate shapes by computer.For plate thickness just look at other aluminium catamarans of the same size and displacement .You can then make an origami model to double check to see how things work out. For a copy of my book please send $20 plus $10 for overseas airmail to suite#427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9 Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> wrote: > Jim, > > I am also on the lookout for an aluminum origami catamaran > plans and have not found much. I would think the French designers > might be a place to look (they are into cats and aluminum). > > This link is for free (?) 40' origami cat plans. > > http://www.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/ > > Please pass on anything you find. > > Thanks > > Mat From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2001 7:34 pm
Subject: plastic hulls

I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high density polyethylene. thickness ranges are from 1/8 to 1/2". I'm thinking that these could be welded to produce a single sheet and just as good for folding and bending as metal. they may need some transverse stiffeners of wood or PVC. no epoxy, no painting, minimal maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and one that should stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a barnacle on a PE jug). cost looks about the same as marine plywood, < $40 for 1/4" and < $80 for 1/2". any concerns? da

Replies Author Date 487 Re: plastic hulls Stephen Wandling Thu 12/13/2001 489 Re: plastic hulls martin brumhauer Fri 12/14/2001 490 Re: plastic hulls ravensoars2001 Fri 12/14/2001 495 Re: plastic hulls brentswain38 Sat 12/22/2001 497 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Mon 12/24/2001 503 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Thu 1/3/2002 505 Re: plastic hulls Ditmore, Stephen Thu 1/3/2002
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2001 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] plastic hulls

I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this technique on the Smallboats forum on Yahoo. dr01allen wrote: > I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high density > polyethylene. thickness ranges are from 1/8 to 1/2". I'm thinking > that these could be welded to produce a single sheet and just as good > for folding and bending as metal. they may need some transverse > stiffeners of wood or PVC. no epoxy, no painting, minimal > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and one that should > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a barnacle on a PE > jug). cost looks about the same as marine plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > and < $80 for 1/2". > > any concerns? > > da > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Replies Author Date 489 Re: plastic hulls martin brumhauer Fri 12/14/2001 490 Re: plastic hulls ravensoars2001 Fri 12/14/2001 495 Re: plastic hulls brentswain38 Sat 12/22/2001 497 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Mon 12/24/2001 503 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Thu 1/3/2002
From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2001 2:12 pm
Subject: anyone tried Form Z

anyone tried Form Z for hull design? it has an 'unfold' function that looks interesting. according to their website, where the unfolding starts is selectable by the user. it'll also add connection tabs. I downloaded the demo, the user interface is a bit awkward and the help function is minimal. I haven't worked through the manuals yet, maybe they'll help. da From: martin brumhauer <sagedsrt@y...>
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2001 3:51 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] plastic hulls

My father has a Folboat brand poly boat. It is a 10' row/outboard boat constructed of ~1/8" sewn sheets that is a true origami boat, as it folds up and unfolds with a one piece hull. The hull is held in shape with the removeable seats. These are currently being made, and for those unfamiliar with them they are a boat that folds to ~4" thick by ~20" high by the ~length of the boat. (You may have seen them strapped to the sides of motorhomes) This boat takes some getting used to as it is flexible, i.e. when you stand in it you can feel and see the bottom flex out under your feet. One advantage of this, which I don't know how it would work in a large boat, is that the boat rides very smooth as it 'gives' and flexes with a chop. This give combined with the toughness of poly allows you to beach the boat on a rocky shore with no damage or hard impacts. The boat is also very stable, as the flexing localizes the impact of weight instead of 'rocking' the boat. One thing to keep in mind is that HDPE and UHMW have poor tensile strength, and little resistance to flexing. HDPE also does not have very good impact strength compared to UHMW. I would think a larger boat would require construction similar to a traditional wooden boat, with a 100% load bearing structural backbone/skeleton planked with the poly. As far as a small boat, anyone considering an inflatable should check out a folboat first. JK --- Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this > technique on the > Smallboats forum on Yahoo. > > dr01allen wrote: > > > I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high > density > > polyethylene. thickness ranges are from 1/8 to > 1/2". I'm thinking > > that these could be welded to produce a single > sheet and just as good > > for folding and bending as metal. they may need > some transverse > > stiffeners of wood or PVC. no epoxy, no painting, > minimal > > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and > one that should > > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a > barnacle on a PE > > jug). cost looks about the same as marine > plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > > and < $80 for 1/2". > > > > any concerns? > > > > da > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 490 Re: plastic hulls ravensoars2001 Fri 12/14/2001 495 Re: plastic hulls brentswain38 Sat 12/22/2001 497 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Mon 12/24/2001 503 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Thu 1/3/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2001 8:42 pm
Subject: Re: plastic hulls

I have had good results welding UHMW for bow rollers etc. The technique requires pressure and precise timing to be sucessful. A consideration in attempting to join larger sheets. An overzealous forklift operator just bent a pice of 2"X 2" square tube around the curve of the aft quarter of my 36'. The hull shows no sign of impact or distortion whatsoever. I have little confidence in any plastic to resist this type of mechanical load. Given the carnage in Porpoise Bay after last nights storm (1 wood boat sunk, several glass boats washed up and damaged, aluminum floats holed etc.) i would be inclined to perform extensive destructive testing on any welded plastic hull form prior to investing money in a whole plastic boat. Imagine the backing plate system you would need under a mooring bit for example? What about mounting pintles, mast steps stern tubes etc? That said, cross linked plastic and royalex in canoes is a well proven system for the product. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., martin brumhauer <sagedsrt@y...> wrote: > My father has a Folboat brand poly boat. It is a 10' > row/outboard boat constructed of ~1/8" sewn sheets > that is a true origami boat, as it folds up and > unfolds with a one piece hull. The hull is held in > shape with the removeable seats. These are currently > being made, and for those unfamiliar with them they > are a boat that folds to ~4" thick by ~20" high by the > ~length of the boat. (You may have seen them strapped > to the sides of motorhomes) This boat takes some > getting used to as it is flexible, i.e. when you stand > in it you can feel and see the bottom flex out under > your feet. One advantage of this, which I don't know > how it would work in a large boat, is that the boat > rides very smooth as it 'gives' and flexes with a > chop. This give combined with the toughness of poly > allows you to beach the boat on a rocky shore with no > damage or hard impacts. The boat is also very stable, > as the flexing localizes the impact of weight instead > of 'rocking' the boat. One thing to keep in mind is > that HDPE and UHMW have poor tensile strength, and > little resistance to flexing. HDPE also does not have > very good impact strength compared to UHMW. I would > think a larger boat would require construction similar > to a traditional wooden boat, with a 100% load bearing > structural backbone/skeleton planked with the poly. > As far as a small boat, anyone considering an > inflatable should check out a folboat first. > > JK > > > --- Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this > > technique on the > > Smallboats forum on Yahoo. > > > > dr01allen wrote: > > > > > I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high > > density > > > polyethylene. thickness ranges are from 1/8 to > > 1/2". I'm thinking > > > that these could be welded to produce a single > > sheet and just as good > > > for folding and bending as metal. they may need > > some transverse > > > stiffeners of wood or PVC. no epoxy, no painting, > > minimal > > > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and > > one that should > > > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a > > barnacle on a PE > > > jug). cost looks about the same as marine > > plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > > > and < $80 for 1/2". > > > > > > any concerns? > > > > > > da > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 495 Re: plastic hulls brentswain38 Sat 12/22/2001 497 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Mon 12/24/2001 503 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Thu 1/3/2002
From: "r_biese" <biese.ronald@w...>
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2001 4:33 pm
Subject: Hi all out there I need your help

Me Ronald I've been from France to Australia with a wooden 45 double-ended ketch restored from 1912. I'm not a wood nut but IS THERE any longkeel ORIGAMI design not the fast type but blue-water a deep, large and fat seegoing Lady sorry but like the BBW's singing Jazz or Blues Lady's i like to die for....... If anybody can proof a fin kell as seeworthy and with huge space .... I let's discuss a wishbone schooner...... as I did it in Australia, singlehanded... so something 35' to 40' to sail, and to live on but not a ::: kit Ronald to type on a french keyboard well me born in Germany went to school fro UK to ?? and now living in France \\|// (o o) -------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-------------------------------------- "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity." - Charles Mingus ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Replies Author Date 492 Van De Staad vs. Origami Doug Barnard Sat 12/15/2001 494 Re: Van De Staad vs. Origami brentswain38 Tue 12/18/2001 493 Re: Hi all out there I need your help brentswain38 Tue 12/18/2001
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sat Dec 15, 2001 9:49 pm
Subject: Van De Staad vs. Origami

So I've been perusing materials from the Van De Staad Design firm, and learning about another form of "high speed" steel construction. I purchased his rather expensive book, (suitable for coffee tables, not construction), some fairly uninformative study plans, and (the gem), his booklet on assembly techniques. Basically, long strips are developed from the hull design, and built upright in a custom cradle. For the purposes of discussion, I'll make the distinction between the "split orange peel" of origami, and the strips of VDS (Van De Staad). I think that both methods have more in common than not, and, as I've said before, it still amazes me that in the whole wide world, only two dudes have said, "Hey, I need a strong boat and all, but does it have to take so long to build?" In the case of my trawler design, the VDS method makes a lot of sense to me. As a 48' trawler is pretty damn big compared to a 35' sailboat, this would mean that I have smaller pieces to deal with. In humble apology to those that cheer the modular method, I'm hoping to avoid using any kind of heavy machinery to deal with the hull during construction. The cradle will allow me to better align the plates, and to check them against the Table of Offsets. I find the idea somewhat scary of trusting my computer drafting and metalworking skills so completely that I'd build the two halves of the hull independent of each other. Imagine if they didn't fit together! Yikes! Here's what I don't like about VDS: He doesn't seem to use longitudinal stringers, and (according to my study plans) requires transverse ribs every 1'4". All of the photographs that I've seen don't have the ribs or the stringers in place, so if anyone can clarify this, it would most appreciated. His hull plating steel is 4mm (~5/32"), somewhat less than 3/16". Assembly-wise, he builds a full cradle that has a brace on top that stretches from side to side. I don't know about you guys, but I like to have Mr. Leverage working on my team. Trying to bow out the long strips could be very problematic. I could see building the support frames like staging, and doing it a row at a time as I worked up the hull sides. Start with the keel, and get that upright. The next stage would be a support structure for the large chine plates and stem. The tops of the chine plates would be initially joined on to the stem, and allowed to extend out, resting on the staging. The plates would be gradually walked inwards, welded to the stem as they came together. All hull plates would run long, so that they would be cut flush with the transom when the hull had been pulled together. Once that is together, the staging would be built up a row to support the knuckle plates. Similar to the chines, they would be attached at the stem and bent back into position. I might even be able to use a regular come-along to get the plates together, as the long lever arm would greatly assist me. Same deal with the sheer plates, and the bulwarks. The build-as-I-went staging would also be handy for scaffolding, and when the hull was complete, a sturdy cradle to support the boat during the rest of construction. I'm thinking that 2X4s on a base of railroad ties would be suitable for this staging, with plywood tops and suitable cross-bracing. As for stringers, I'm thinking like 3/8" X 1", every two feet up the hull sides. Commentary, please! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler

Replies Author Date 494 Re: Van De Staad vs. Origami brentswain38 Tue 12/18/2001
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:02 am
Subject: Re: Hi all out there I need your help

--One of my 31 footers was done in a single full length keel version. One of the problems with a full length keel is that the area in the aft end of the keel amounts to roughly 300 lbs of extra steel in the stern of the vessel where you need the weight least.Being an area where weight should be kept to a minimum , it's useless for storage . and impossible to get into and paint or maintain properly. Another problem is that you have to fit the full length keel to the hull from the outside before cutting away the centreline, whereas with the shorter keel you can simply cut a hole and shove the keel through. My last boat had a full length keel and had far less directional stability than my current twin keeler or the newer , long fin keelers. Directional stability has far more to do with the hull shape than the length of the keel. My book describes this in much greater detail. Full length keels have no real advantage over long fin keels,in terms of seaworthiness , and have many disadvantages.While building an origami boat with a full length keel is light years easier than doing it the traditional way, it's quite a bit more difficult putting the keel on. Brent Swain - In origamiboats@y..., "r_biese" <biese.ronald@w...> wrote: > Me Ronald > I've been from France to Australia > with a wooden 45 double-ended ketch restored from 1912. > > I'm not a wood nut but > IS THERE any longkeel ORIGAMI design > > not the fast type but blue-water > a deep, large and fat seegoing Lady > sorry but like the BBW's singing Jazz or Blues Lady's > i like to die for....... > > If anybody can proof a fin kell as seeworthy and > with huge space .... I let's discuss > > a wishbone schooner...... > as I did it in Australia, singlehanded... > so > something 35' to 40' > to sail, and to live on > but not a ::: kit > > Ronald > > to type on a french keyboard > well me born in Germany > went to school fro UK to ?? > and now living in France > > \\|// > (o o) > -------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------------------------------ -- > "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; > making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, > that's creativity." - Charles Mingus > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:13 am
Subject: Re: Van De Staad vs. Origami

Doug Chines have far greater stiffness than longitudinals, they can be similar in strength to fully welded longitudinal bulkheads. Divide the space between chines into equal spaces not exceeding about 16 inches and put your longitudinals there. If you plan to foam the hull( and it would be foolish not to) Angle irons of about 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch are far stronger structurally than flat bar.Buying wheelabraded and primed steel eliminates the old problem of cleaning behind the angle irons before painting. 5 mm plates of the size you describe ar quite floppy and you'd have no problem pulling them to shape as log as there wasn't too much twist in the ends. This method requires far more welding , grinding and fitting than origami, but may be neccessary for the shape you seek. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > So I've been perusing materials from the Van De Staad Design firm, and > learning about another form of "high speed" steel construction. I purchased > his rather expensive book, (suitable for coffee tables, not construction), > some fairly uninformative study plans, and (the gem), his booklet on > assembly techniques. > > Basically, long strips are developed from the hull design, and built upright > in a custom cradle. For the purposes of discussion, I'll make the > distinction between the "split orange peel" of origami, and the strips of > VDS (Van De Staad). I think that both methods have more in common than not, > and, as I've said before, it still amazes me that in the whole wide world, > only two dudes have said, "Hey, I need a strong boat and all, but does it > have to take so long to build?" > > In the case of my trawler design, the VDS method makes a lot of sense to me. > As a 48' trawler is pretty damn big compared to a 35' sailboat, this would > mean that I have smaller pieces to deal with. In humble apology to those > that cheer the modular method, I'm hoping to avoid using any kind of heavy > machinery to deal with the hull during construction. The cradle will allow > me to better align the plates, and to check them against the Table of > Offsets. I find the idea somewhat scary of trusting my computer drafting and > metalworking skills so completely that I'd build the two halves of the hull > independent of each other. Imagine if they didn't fit together! Yikes! > > Here's what I don't like about VDS: He doesn't seem to use longitudinal > stringers, and (according to my study plans) requires transverse ribs every > 1'4". All of the photographs that I've seen don't have the ribs or the > stringers in place, so if anyone can clarify this, it would most > appreciated. His hull plating steel is 4mm (~5/32"), somewhat less than > 3/16". Assembly-wise, he builds a full cradle that has a brace on top that > stretches from side to side. I don't know about you guys, but I like to have > Mr. Leverage working on my team. Trying to bow out the long strips could be > very problematic. > > I could see building the support frames like staging, and doing it a row at > a time as I worked up the hull sides. Start with the keel, and get that > upright. The next stage would be a support structure for the large chine > plates and stem. The tops of the chine plates would be initially joined on > to the stem, and allowed to extend out, resting on the staging. The plates > would be gradually walked inwards, welded to the stem as they came together. > All hull plates would run long, so that they would be cut flush with the > transom when the hull had been pulled together. > > Once that is together, the staging would be built up a row to support the > knuckle plates. Similar to the chines, they would be attached at the stem > and bent back into position. I might even be able to use a regular > come-along to get the plates together, as the long lever arm would greatly > assist me. Same deal with the sheer plates, and the bulwarks. The > build-as-I-went staging would also be handy for scaffolding, and when the > hull was complete, a sturdy cradle to support the boat during the rest of > construction. I'm thinking that 2X4s on a base of railroad ties would be > suitable for this staging, with plywood tops and suitable cross- bracing. > > As for stringers, I'm thinking like 3/8" X 1", every two feet up the hull > sides. > > Commentary, please! > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2001 11:57 pm
Subject: Re: plastic hulls

--Steve What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. Brent Swain - In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > I have had good results welding UHMW for bow rollers etc. The > technique requires pressure and precise timing to be sucessful. A > consideration in attempting to join larger sheets. An overzealous > forklift operator just bent a pice of 2"X 2" square tube around the > curve of the aft quarter of my 36'. The hull shows no sign of impact > or distortion whatsoever. I have little confidence in any plastic to > resist this type of mechanical load. Given the carnage in Porpoise > Bay after last nights storm (1 wood boat sunk, several glass boats > washed up and damaged, aluminum floats holed etc.) i would be > inclined to perform extensive destructive testing on any welded > plastic hull form prior to investing money in a whole plastic boat. > Imagine the backing plate system you would need under a mooring bit > for example? What about mounting pintles, mast steps stern tubes > etc? That said, cross linked plastic and royalex in canoes is a well > proven system for the product. rt > > --- In origamiboats@y..., martin brumhauer <sagedsrt@y...> wrote: > > My father has a Folboat brand poly boat. It is a 10' > > row/outboard boat constructed of ~1/8" sewn sheets > > that is a true origami boat, as it folds up and > > unfolds with a one piece hull. The hull is held in > > shape with the removeable seats. These are currently > > being made, and for those unfamiliar with them they > > are a boat that folds to ~4" thick by ~20" high by the > > ~length of the boat. (You may have seen them strapped > > to the sides of motorhomes) This boat takes some > > getting used to as it is flexible, i.e. when you stand > > in it you can feel and see the bottom flex out under > > your feet. One advantage of this, which I don't know > > how it would work in a large boat, is that the boat > > rides very smooth as it 'gives' and flexes with a > > chop. This give combined with the toughness of poly > > allows you to beach the boat on a rocky shore with no > > damage or hard impacts. The boat is also very stable, > > as the flexing localizes the impact of weight instead > > of 'rocking' the boat. One thing to keep in mind is > > that HDPE and UHMW have poor tensile strength, and > > little resistance to flexing. HDPE also does not have > > very good impact strength compared to UHMW. I would > > think a larger boat would require construction similar > > to a traditional wooden boat, with a 100% load bearing > > structural backbone/skeleton planked with the poly. > > As far as a small boat, anyone considering an > > inflatable should check out a folboat first. > > > > JK > > > > > > --- Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this > > > technique on the > > > Smallboats forum on Yahoo. > > > > > > dr01allen wrote: > > > > > > > I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high > > > density > > > > polyethylene. thickness ranges are from 1/8 to > > > 1/2". I'm thinking > > > > that these could be welded to produce a single > > > sheet and just as good > > > > for folding and bending as metal. they may need > > > some transverse > > > > stiffeners of wood or PVC. no epoxy, no painting, > > > minimal > > > > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and > > > one that should > > > > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a > > > barnacle on a PE > > > > jug). cost looks about the same as marine > > > plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > > > > and < $80 for 1/2". > > > > > > > > any concerns? > > > > > > > > da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 497 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Mon 12/24/2001 503 Re: plastic hulls dr01allen Thu 1/3/2002
From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2001 6:21 pm
Subject: Rust

In building the steel boat supposing there has been some rust because the original primer coating was scraped off or you did not property wire brush and coat a weld on the inside. Would the process of epoxy and paint fix that or will you have a rust through point at some point in the future. No matter how thorough you hope to be I am sure that there is going to be some unprotected steel somewhere in the boat particularly on the interior underneath the angle iron or where ever. Thanks

Replies Author Date 499 Re: Rust brentswain38 Thu 12/27/2001
From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: plastic hulls

--- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > --Steve > What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. > Brent Swain it's in an industrial maintenance catalog at work. I'll have to wait until after the 2nd to get the details. da From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2001 4:46 pm
Subject: new photos of 36 footer

Dear Group, I have posted 2 new photos showing good view so the 36 foot fin-keeler, Moonraven for your viewing pleasure. Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 508 Re: new photos of 36 footer ravensoars2001 Mon 1/7/2002 509 Re: new photos of 36 footer Alex & Kim Christie Tue 1/8/2002 510 Re: new photos of 36 footer evanmoonjunk Tue 1/8/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Dec 27, 2001 10:41 pm
Subject: Re: Rust

--We've never worried much about the smaller chips and it hasn't mattered much. Many of the new epoxies (like bar rust 235) are quite surface tolerant when it comes to small amounts of rust.I've been told that newer ones are coming out which are even more surface tolerant. Larger missed spots should be touched up at the first opporunity, or, if they get rusty, cleaned up with the grinder and primed. If you have most of your welding done and it's the wrong time of year for painting, another coat of primer should hold the fort until spring. 3/16th plate , left bare and damp on one side , will take roughly 15 years to rust through , if there is no electrolysis happining. Brent Swain - In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > In building the steel boat supposing there has been some rust because > the original primer coating was scraped off or you did not property > wire brush and coat a weld on the inside. Would the process of epoxy > and paint fix that or will you have a rust through point at some > point in the future. No matter how thorough you hope to be I am sure > that there is going to be some unprotected steel somewhere in the > boat particularly on the interior underneath the angle iron or where > ever. > > Thanks From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:47 am
Subject: Companionway hatch design and construction

Bert and Jan wrote me asking about the companion way hatches on Moonraven. My reply to them couldn't be sent because of a problem with their yahoo mail, so I'll post it here, and others perhaps would like to add anything they know about hatches on Brent boats. I've put their question here, an old response from Brent from the archives, and lastly my two cents worth: --- bertandjan <bertandjan@y...> wrote: > Alex, > > Thanks for the pics of Moonraven... > > I wonder how much the 36' fin keel version draws?? > > And, did you build the sturdy looking companionway > door from scratch? > What did you gasket it with? Interested in its > design.... > > All the best, > > Bert (and Jan) Eggers....snowy Saginaw, Mi > Dear Bert and Jan, The companion way hatches on Brent's boats are one of the most well thought-out structures I have seen on a sailboat, and it has often made me wonder why people use anything else for metal boats. The aft bulkhead of the pilothouse is slanted forward a little more than most boats, to begin with. When entering the boat, this allows a person to walk down into the boat without stooping (depending on your height), and avoids the need to have a sliding companionway hatch on top. A lip of stainless is welded to the bulkhead all around the hatch entry way, making a good mating surface for the neoprene gasketing of the aluminum hatch to seal against (the hatch door itself has a lip which fits around the outside of the lip on the boat --- I'd imagine this would make it very difficult for thieves to get much gap to pry open the door). There are two pintle hinges on one side, and a simple lever latch on the other which dogs down the hatch very securely. It looks from the photo that the Moonraven people have put two levers, though I doubt it would be needed considering the stiffness of the aluminum over such a short distance. Some folks put small plexi windows or a portlight in the door, but in Moonraven's case they put it next to the door. The door is not heavy, being of aluminum, so does not present a danger to the occupant by swining. Because it is on pintle hinges, it can easily be lifted off when the door is open, but cannot be slid off when the door is dogged tight (nice if you are upside down inside a rogue wave...). Being a scaredy-cat when it comes to pondering deep sea passages, I like this "submarine" style of door! I have also noticed that Brent doesn't bother with opening ports on his own boat, simply plexi properly bedded with goop and a neoprene gasket. He has achieved sufficient ventilation via the forward hatch (the bow usually being in the wind at anchor), flowing out the aft hatch and main cabin hatch. I think his philosophy is that if it can't open, then it can't cause you grief in a storm. As for draft, Brent wrote about some of the basic specs in (I think) message #375 a ways back. I will copy and paste here what he wrote: "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel weight, (4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel . Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel. Altho I've built a 36 ft hull in ideal conditions, and shell ( hull deck cabin cockpit , keels, skeg tacked together in 6 days, it usually takes 2 to 3 weeks ." I am planning on building a 40 foot Swain hull, which I believe draws 4.5 feet with the bilge keels, but I'd have to look at my plans again to find out. Of course, being steel, there is some variability in the choices you can make for draft simply by adding on. Myself being a former river canoeist, I'll have to simply get used to drawing that much, and be thankful that I can dry out on a mudflat if I miscalculate when anchoring. Regards, Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 501 Re: Companionway hatch design and construction mark_schlichting11 Sat 12/29/2001
From: "mark_schlichting11" <Mark_Schlichting@h...>
Date: Sat Dec 29, 2001 12:56 am
Subject: Re: Companionway hatch design and construction

--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > As for draft, Brent wrote about some of the basic > specs in (I think) message #375 a ways back. I will > copy and paste here what he wrote: > > "Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck ." Either the copying or the pasting was faulty because what Brent actually wrote (correctly, I might add) was: "Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck." From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Sun Dec 30, 2001 2:36 pm
Subject: Refrigeration

Hi Folks, This is not Origami so I guess its off subject but I hope it may be of some use to those who build and go off cruising in boats Here 'is a little stunt I learned while living aboard in the tropics. Most you who move aboard their boats, will at some point wind up in hot weather and will install some sort of refrigeration. I put in engine driven refrigeration that is also driven by a one horse electric motor at the dock simply by switching the belt from engine to motor. If you work on your own unit you will need a vacuum pump to pull it down to - 30" of mercury. Well I bought a hand vacuum pump at an automotive store that is used by mechanics to check vacuum diaphragms and such on automobiles. These pumps sell for about $45.00 US. One of them will pull about - 25 inches of mercury, not good enough for refrigeration. So, here is how I used mine. I have a shut off valve in the low pressure side right next to my refrigeration compressor and one just before my expansion valve in the high pressure side. Shut off the valve on high pressure side of line and use your compressor to pump low pressure side over into the high pressure side and bleed off high pressure side. Warning: I would not do this on a new installation as there may not be enough oil in the system to lubricate the pump and to pull down a system in use I would not let the pump run for an extended period even on an already used unit. You should be able to pull down the low side to about -28 inches of mercury [less than perfect] Shut off the valve on the low pressure side. Now you have a vacuum on the low side and atmospheric pressure on the high side 14 psi approx. Here is where the hand vacuum pump comes in. Using the hand pump you can pull this side down to about -25 inches of mercury,takes a lot of pumping. When you open the valves between high and low sides, you will have about -26 or -27 inches in the whole system. At this point you can fill your system. it will be less then perfect and you may experience a certain amount of icing up in your expansion valve but you have cold beer. Now here is where you have to let your conscience be your guide this is not legal in the US and I'm not sure about other places. Before you fill your unit, you could put some refrigerant in the system and pump it out by the same above method. By doing this a couple of times you can eliminate any moisture or air that may be in the unit. Every time you do this it gets better. I don't recommend doing this but if you were a long way from help it would be something I would at least consider as even a little freezing in the expansion valve is a pain in the neck. By the way I use the 134 a refrigerant that they sell in automotive stores in my system. Apparently it must not be to hard on the atmosphere as they sell it to people who have no means or knowledge of refrigerant recovery systems. It is cheap and puts refrigeration back in the hands of the amateur. The only drawback is it takes longer to pull your system down when in use. So you have a longer engine run time. It takes about 45 minutes run time to pull down my refrigerator. I have a hundred amp alternator and that run time charges my batteries as well. The problem is you get sloppy about burning lights and using the single side band radio and all of this is wear on your engine. We did without refrigeration about five years but I finally gave in, as my wife was about to mutiny. I'll have to admit it didn't take long to acquire a taste for cold beer again. So you boat builders out there may want to keep this in mind for a future day when you will also give in. Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 2:00 pm
Subject: Re: plastic hulls

it's in the Chisom wholesale catalog. (800 8442484, no website that I can see) catalog #359, item# 90021 is the 1/4", 4X8 sheet of high density polyethylene. 41.2 lbs, $39.75 in singles. it's available from 1/8" to 1/2", weight and price scale with thickness. they also have a selection of stainless bolts, screws, and threaded rod. da > What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. > Brent Swain > From: "phillipdallen" <phillipdallen@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 2:09 pm
Subject: I'd like to see

Is anyone building (or otherwise working on) an origami boat near Northwest Arkansas? From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 3:41 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: plastic hulls

Have you tried http://www.ultrapoly.com/ <http://www.ultrapoly.com/> ? Stephen Ditmore New York -----Original Message----- From: dr01allen [mailto:davidallen@i...] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:01 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plastic hulls it's in the Chisom wholesale catalog. (800 8442484, no website that I can see) catalog #359, item# 90021 is the 1/4", 4X8 sheet of high density polyethylene. 41.2 lbs, $39.75 in singles. it's available from 1/8" to 1/2", weight and price scale with thickness. they also have a selection of stainless bolts, screws, and threaded rod. da > What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. > Brent Swain > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 8:04 pm
Subject: Re: material

Welding: the decision to build a metal boat depends on what, where and how much you have available in terms of resources. I am building in steel. This means that I can build and weld in outdoor west coast winter conditions-or wherever. Simple and inexpensive transformer welding power scources and basic affordable stick (SMAW) welding rods can be easily purchaced for this type of welding. As soon as we move into more sophisticated welding techniques we require controlled atmospheric environment and more money. One of the most significant advantages of Brent's oragami proceedure is the lack of welding involved. The seams are comparativly short and the stitch welding for stringers etc is minimal. This saves on distortion, time, cost, edge prep, clean up and overall welding costs. Perhaps, more significantly (in terms of quality) it reduces the probability of defects. I was able to purchase an ancient propane cutting torch at a swap meet for $12--it works better than the $300 torch we use at the school--for this job. This type of cutting lends itself well to stick welding. Another advantage of basic stick welding is the ability to weld stainless to mild steel, galvanised pipe to plate etc. This can be done at the change of a rod unlike wire feed. Wire feed is easy to learn at first but the process is deceptive in that it can produce neat looking welds that leak, corode and that can, under stress, break away from the parent metal. Oxy-Propane cutting and stick welding steel is a simple, honest, practical and relativly inexpensive way for the average builder to construct a one off vessel. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "batsondbelfrey" <Robert.Biegler@s...> wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That > > stuff is gnarly! > > Another nice idea shot down by reality. Sigh. At the moment I know > next to nothing about welding, I am reading this group because the > method seems interesting and I really *like* the idea of an impact > resistant hull. > > I got an email reply from John Barker, but there was no text. John, > your computer may have a case of Badtrans. > > Regards > > Robert From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 8:56 pm
Subject: [origamiboats] Re: material

For some reason I seem to be getting pieces of a conversation, so I'm not sure how this "plastic hulls" topic got started or what it's all about. However, especially in the larger sizes, I think an Origami design could be built from DuFlex http://www.atlcomposites.com/products_composite_duflex_intro.htm <http://www.atlcomposites.com/products_composite_duflex_intro.htm> . This would open the possibility, it seems to me, of building an Origami vessel large enough to be a passenger or charter vessel. Stephen Ditmore [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: new photos of 36 footer

Alex, nice boat. May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have posted 2 new photos showing good view so the 36 foot > fin-keeler, Moonraven for your viewing pleasure. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 1:08 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: new photos of 36 footer

----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: new photos of 36 footer > Alex, nice boat. May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and > where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt Moonraven is berthed in Comox, but I know little of its life other than that. Brent knows the owners, I believe, and may be able to tell us more. Alex (moderator)

Replies Author Date 510 Re: new photos of 36 footer evanmoonjunk Tue 1/8/2002
From: "evanmoonjunk" <evanmoonjunk@y...>
Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 2:46 am
Subject: Re: new photos of 36 footer

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: new photos of 36 footer > > > > Alex, nice boat. May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and > > where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt > > Moonraven is berthed in Comox, but I know little of its life other than > that. Brent knows the owners, I believe, and may be able to tell us more. > > Alex > Hi Alex, Moonraven is owned by Doug and Judy Vansickle. It was started in 1984,I think, Brent and I worked together for several days on it, after which I worked on it quite a bit more and then Doug finished off the rest....Evan > From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:44 pm
Subject: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta

Dear Group, I have just recently returned from a trip to Alberta, where I visited a boatbuilder who is fitting out his 39 foot aluminum origami hull. See photo album for pix (Under, "Aluminum 39 Footer"). It is being completed inside a greenhouse, so I couldn't get any full-hull shots, but the details may be interesting to examine. This hull is not technically a Swain hull, but rather a modification based on his 36 foot design, done by a company called Fastwater (now closed) in Vancouver. The hull was trucked from Vancouver to Alberta, luckily without ballast installed, so it was an easy haul being aluminum. It is one of only a full hulls of its type, possibly only 1 of 2. The company which built the bare hull did a few things differently on this one. Firstly, the hard chine midships has been replaced by sections of a radius, smoothing out that area. There is some debate as to whether the time spent rounding off the chine (and risking heat distortion) adds much in speed, and I would tend to think it doesn't much. But it certainly looks pretty! The rudder and skeg (more high aspect than most Swain hulls)has been moved inboard of a reverse transom, and the cooling system is no longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-heat exchanger system. The owner has put in three different kinds of steering for redundancy, pedestal steering (mechanical), emergency tiller steering (mechanical, on top of rudder shaft), and hydraulic (inside steering station). The boat is going to be equipped for diving, so there is a large gate which folds out from the transom but folds flush when in the up position. It is an interesting looking boat, and it was very handy to be able to walk around inside a vessel of similar size to the 40 I plan to build. I got all sorts of ideas as to what could fit in a boat that big, and it is certainly cavernous compared to the 36. This bodes well for fitting my family of 4 and two 55 lb dogs onboard (anyone looking to adopt a nice pair of dogs in about 3 years??). The owner plans on completing the hull and launching it in Vancouver, after which he and his wife will live aboard and cruise locally for a bit before undertaking off-shore ventures, possibly around the world. In the coming weeks I hope to get over to Vancouver and see the two 40 foot steel boats and get some photos and information on those vessels, one of which is afloat, the other being finished. Stay tuned! Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 513 Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta lbanerd Fri 1/11/2002 514 Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta brentswain38 Fri 1/11/2002
From: "winslow59" <winslow59@y...>
Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 11:04 pm
Subject: Brent, Board Members: If building today - steel or aluminum?

36-40 ft sailboat for live-aboard and voyaging (the pelagic life). Steel or Aluminum - which and why? (I've read some of the books & articles by designers and engineers - I'm curious to read about the decisions of folks who are spending their own money and/or time building and will sail their own boats.) -Markus From: "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 7:26 pm
Subject: Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta

--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > and the cooling system is no > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-heat > exchanger system. Could you elaborate on this? I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How does it work? - L Banerd

Replies Author Date 514 Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta brentswain38 Fri 1/11/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta

Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater through a complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole surface of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling surface available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of a heat exchanger system. Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a cooling tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top of the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom. Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the skeg results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating the need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP with no problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every couple of years eliminates any corrosion problems . Brent Swain - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > and the cooling system is no > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water- heat > > exchanger system. > > Could you elaborate on this? > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How > does it work? > > - L Banerd

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From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 6:44 am
Subject: twin keel article

Many of the Swain designed hulls feature twin keels. Here is a link for an interesting article about twin keel applications on different kind of yachts, written by Vancouver naval architect Patrick Bray: http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html Alex Christie (moderator) From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 11:40 pm
Subject: Swain 30 for sale

For anyone looking for a steel boat in the 30 foot range, I've come across a listing for a Swain 30 (steel) for sale in the Buy and Sell (Vancouver). The ad states: 30' 1976 BRENT SWAIN STEEL SLOOP, near new Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke, 2 anchors, furling jib, solar panel, windlass, Dickinson diesel heater, VHF, $28,500 Cdn. OBO. Call Tel: 604-831-8092 I'll post the photo in the Photos section as, "aSwain30.jpg" Alex Christie (moderator) From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 4:19 am
Subject: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop

For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel have been added to the photos section. This boat was built on Vancouver Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain 27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed through the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons. This is his third steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at this site: http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 521 Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop russa1111 Sun 1/20/2002 522 Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop russa1111 Sun 1/20/2002
From: "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...>
Date: Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:12 pm
Subject: Skeg as a cooling tank

Interesting solution. Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a 50feet steelsailer? And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with seawater? Any suggestions? Sigge Johansson ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta > Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling > systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater through a > complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw > water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole surface > of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling surface > available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of a > heat exchanger system. > Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a cooling > tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top of > the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom. > Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the skeg > results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating the > need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of > surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my > boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP with no > problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every couple > of years eliminates any corrosion problems . > Brent Swain > > > > - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > > and the cooling system is no > > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water- > heat > > > exchanger system. > > > > Could you elaborate on this? > > > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How > > does it work? > > > > - L Banerd > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >

Replies Author Date 523 Re: Skeg as a cooling tank brentswain38 Mon 1/21/2002 524 Re: Skeg as a cooling tank brentswain38 Mon 1/21/2002
From: "r_biese" <biese.ronald@w...>
Date: Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:03 pm
Subject: 44 double ender

Hiya in the files section there is a 44 double ender Junk sail first question where does the design comes from ? what about draft, beam etc I would like to build one as a gaff ketch as I like them..... Ronald

Replies Author Date 525 Re: 44 double ender brentswain38 Mon 1/21/2002
From: "russa1111" <russa@s...>
Date: Sun Jan 20, 2002 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop

--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel have > been added to the photos section. This boat was built on Vancouver > Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain > 27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed through > the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons. This is his third > steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at > this site: > > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) Hi Alex, Just popped back to check on the group after being absent for a few months. You have certainly been busy. I had a look at Winston's boat about 18months ago when I last saw Gene. It is a very well built and finished boat but the new photo's don't show the most interesting feature of this boat which is that, in common with the other Dove, it is fitted with a much taller wheelhouse rather than a pilothouse. It is also good to see that construction of the Aluminum boat is underway again. Russ Ashworth. From: "russa1111" <russa@s...>
Date: Sun Jan 20, 2002 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop

--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel have > been added to the photos section. This boat was built on Vancouver > Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain > 27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed through > the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons. This is his third > steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at > this site: > > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) Hi Alex, Just popped back to check on the group after being absent for a few months. You have certainly been busy. I had a look at Winston's boat about 18months ago when I last saw Gene. It is a very well built and finished boat but the new photo's don't show the most interesting feature of this boat which is that, in common with the other Dove, it is fitted with a much taller wheelhouse rather than a pilothouse. It is also good to see that construction of the Aluminum boat is underway again. Russ Ashworth. From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: Skeg as a cooling tank

It takes about 1.5 square ft per 10 horsepower. If you don't have enough surface area in the skeg, you can also use the back of the keel, or weld channel iron, or a cooling tank inside the hull to make up the extra surface area . I usually go for a dry exhaust , but some people just put in a separate pump to cool the exhaust . It's still a lot less problem prone to simply pump seawater direct to the exhaust than to pump it through the entire engine heat exchanger , filters, etc . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...> wrote: > Interesting solution. > Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a 50feet steelsailer? > And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with seawater? > Any suggestions? > > Sigge Johansson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta > > > > Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling > > systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater through a > > complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw > > water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole surface > > of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling surface > > available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of a > > heat exchanger system. > > Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a cooling > > tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top of > > the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom. > > Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the skeg > > results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating the > > need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of > > surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my > > boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP with no > > problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every couple > > of years eliminates any corrosion problems . > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > > > and the cooling system is no > > > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water- > > heat > > > > exchanger system. > > > > > > Could you elaborate on this? > > > > > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How > > > does it work? > > > > > > - L Banerd > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > >

Replies Author Date 524 Re: Skeg as a cooling tank brentswain38 Mon 1/21/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:45 pm
Subject: Re: Skeg as a cooling tank

It's best to do a bit of an overkill when it comes to surface area of a skeg cooler as it's easy to do in the building stage and much harder to do after the fact. Brent Swain - In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > It takes about 1.5 square ft per 10 horsepower. If you don't have > enough surface area in the skeg, you can also use the back of the > keel, or weld channel iron, or a cooling tank inside the hull to make > up the extra surface area . I usually go for a dry exhaust , but some > people just put in a separate pump to cool the exhaust . It's still a > lot less problem prone to simply pump seawater direct to the exhaust > than to pump it through the entire engine heat exchanger , filters, > etc . > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...> wrote: > > Interesting solution. > > Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a 50feet > steelsailer? > > And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with > seawater? > > Any suggestions? > > > > Sigge Johansson > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:08 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta > > > > > > > Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling > > > systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater > through a > > > complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw > > > water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole > surface > > > of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling > surface > > > available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of > a > > > heat exchanger system. > > > Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a > cooling > > > tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top > of > > > the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom. > > > Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the > skeg > > > results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating > the > > > need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of > > > surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my > > > boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP with no > > > problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every > couple > > > of years eliminates any corrosion problems . > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> > wrote: > > > > > and the cooling system is no > > > > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw- water- > > > heat > > > > > exchanger system. > > > > > > > > Could you elaborate on this? > > > > > > > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. > How > > > > does it work? > > > > > > > > - L Banerd > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:53 pm
Subject: Re: 44 double ender

Jack Carson bought a 36 footer which had been built as a double ender and cut it in half, put 8 ft in the middle, pushed the beam out, etc , etc , and ended up with a 44 footer. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "r_biese" <biese.ronald@w...> wrote: > Hiya > in the files section there is a 44 double ender > Junk sail > > first question > where does the design comes from ? > > what about draft, beam etc > > I would like to build one > as a gaff ketch as I like them..... > > Ronald From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:20 am
Subject: origami cat

Hello Everybody, Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing something that makes this impossible? Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. Thanks, James Floyd

Replies Author Date 527 Re: origami cat Gary Lepak Thu 1/24/2002 544 Re: origami cat mat_man22 Fri 1/25/2002 528 Re: origami cat Ditmore, Stephen Thu 1/24/2002 529 Re: origami cat Ditmore, Stephen Thu 1/24/2002 546 Re: origami cat mat_man22 Sat 1/26/2002 547 Re: origami cat Gary Lepak Sat 1/26/2002 549 Re: origami cat alex_christie Sat 1/26/2002 552 Re: origami cat james floyd Sat 1/26/2002 558 Re: origami cat Gary H. Lucas Sat 1/26/2002
From: "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:30 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami cat

----- Original Message ----- From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat > Hello Everybody, > > Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > > Thanks, > James Floyd Hi James, Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required. I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary

Replies Author Date 544 Re: origami cat mat_man22 Fri 1/25/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:36 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat

The site you may be thinking of for the tortured plywood canoes is http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> . This method uses vertical cuts up to the gunwale. Whether it's adaptable to metal construction is a good question... Also, multihull designer Kurt Hughes has developed some worthwhile strategies for rapid construction. His web site is http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> Similarly Derek Kelsell in England and others. Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@o...] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami cat ----- Original Message ----- From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat > Hello Everybody, > > Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > > Thanks, > James Floyd Hi James, Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required. I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=264812229> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:21 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat

This may be sacrilege in this forum, but let me also note that you can do pretty well using foam & fiberglass. Go to http://www.dcss.org/ayrs/newsltrs/july97/ <http://www.dcss.org/ayrs/newsltrs/july97/> and, on the left, click on "Quick Hull-Building." Having said that, it would be interesting to explore whether Stillwater Boats' method is applicable to metal multis. Stephen -----Original Message----- From: Ditmore, Stephen Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:43 AM To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat The site you may be thinking of for the tortured plywood canoes is http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> . This method uses vertical cuts up to the gunwale. Whether it's adaptable to metal construction is a good question... Also, multihull designer Kurt Hughes has developed some worthwhile strategies for rapid construction. His web site is http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> Similarly Derek Kelsell in England and others. Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@o...] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami cat ----- Original Message ----- From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat > Hello Everybody, > > Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > > Thanks, > James Floyd Hi James, Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required. I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=264812229> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 546 Re: origami cat mat_man22 Sat 1/26/2002
From: "kupris1948" <kupris1948@a...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 6:38 pm
Subject: dumb epoxy paint question # 1209

What if epoxy is applied to epoxy after the recoat time? what happens? does a slippery surface make the new paint not stick well? does the surface have to be roughed up, mechanically or chemically?

Replies Author Date 532 Re: dumb epoxy paint question # 1209 Alex & Kim Christie Thu 1/24/2002
From: "carlmbentley" <carlmbentley@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:33 pm
Subject: engines

with winter here i'm hoping more of you are reading the board, actually i hope you are all in the islands but . . . since i'm not, i have a question or two. first: is there one (or three) brand of engine that everyone agrees is the best. well actually i'm just interested to see what some of you think in general, be it price v/s performance, lifespans, ease of maintance, or lack of part availability etc etc for different inboard diesel options. this seems to be the one of the expenses that can't really be avoided (aside from not having one) can't make your own, can go used i suppose, or improvise . . . let's say you have to buy one though - comments ? that's it, i'll hold off on the rest of my questions till after i read brents book, sorry if he covers this one already -carl

Replies Author Date 533 Re: engines Alex & Kim Christie Fri 1/25/2002 534 Re: engines Michael Casling Fri 1/25/2002 535 Re: engines Douglas Pollard Fri 1/25/2002 536 Re: engines Joe Casey Fri 1/25/2002 538 Re: engines Douglas Pollard Fri 1/25/2002 578 Re: engines Richard Payne Tue 1/29/2002 582 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Tue 1/29/2002 583 Re: engines Alex & Kim Christie Wed 1/30/2002 586 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 1/31/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:40 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dumb epoxy paint question # 1209

Kupris1948 asks, > What if epoxy is applied to epoxy after the recoat time? > what happens? does a slippery surface make the new paint not stick > well? does the surface have to be roughed up, mechanically or > chemically? Epoxy as it cures gives off an "amine blush" as a byproduct of the cross-linking reaction. Another layer of epoxy can be applied while the original layer is in the "gel stage" (middle stage) and still acheive chemical bonding, but after final cure state is acheived, only mechanical bonding is possible. If more epoxy must be applied after the recoat time, the amine blush has to be removed and, as you mentioned already the surface has to be mechanically roughened. For West System epoxy, washing with water and scrubbing with something like a 3m Scotchbrite(tm) pad is required, followed by sanding with 80-grit sandpaper, before a recoat is attempted. Don't skip the water wash and scrub, or you'll just grind the amine blush into grooves created by sanding! Applying epoxy within the specified recoat time would be preferable in an ideal world, as this means that all layers are chemically linked together into one nice thick layer. Here is what West System says on their website, at http://www.westsystem.com . They've got excellent technical data about epoxy: Surface preparation Whether you are bonding, fairing or applying fabrics, the success of the application depends not only on the strength of the epoxy, but also on how well the epoxy adheres to the surface to which it is being applied. Unless you are bonding to partially cured epoxy, the strength of the bond relies on the epoxy's ability to mechanically "key" into the surface. That is why the following three steps of surface preparation are a critical part of any secondary bonding operation. For good adhesion, bonding surfaces should be: 1. Clean Bonding surfaces must be free of any contaminants such as grease, oil, wax or mold release. Clean contaminated surfaces with lacquer thinner, acetone or other appropriate solvent. Wipe the surface with paper towels before the solvent dries. Clean surfaces before sanding to avoid sanding the contaminant into the surface. Follow all safety precautions when working with solvents. 2. Dry All bonding surfaces must be as dry as possible for good adhesion. If necessary, accelerate drying by warming the bonding surface with a hot air gun, hair dryer or heat lamp. Use fans to move the air in confined or enclosed spaces. Watch for condensation when working outdoors or whenever the temperature of the work environment changes. 3. Sanded Sand smooth non-porous surfaces-thoroughly abrade the surface. 80-grit aluminum oxide paper will provide a good texture for the epoxy to "key" into. Be sure the surface to be bonded is solid. Remove any flaking, chalking, blistering, or old coating before sanding. Remove all dust after sanding. Special preparation for various materials Cured epoxy-Amine blush can appear as a wax-like film on cured epoxy surfaces. It is a by-product of the curing process and may be more noticeable in cool, moist conditions. Amine blush can clog sandpaper and inhibit subsequent bonding, but it can easily be removed. It's a good idea to assume it has formed on any cured epoxy surface. To remove the blush, wash the surface with clean water (not solvent) and an abrasive pad, such as Scotch-brite(tm) 7447 General Purpose Hand Pads. Dry the surface with paper towels to remove the dissolved blush before it dries on the surface. Sand any remaining glossy areas with 80-grit sandpaper. Wet-sanding will also remove the amine blush. If a release fabric is applied over the surface of fresh epoxy, amine blush will be removed when the release fabric is peeled from the cured epoxy and no additional sanding is required. Epoxy surfaces that have not fully cured may be bonded to or coated with epoxy without washing or sanding. Before applying coatings other than epoxy (paints, bottom paints, varnishes, gelcoats, etc.), allow epoxy surfaces to cure fully, then wash and sand. Hardwoods-Sand with 80-grit paper. Teak/oily woods-Wipe with acetone 15 minutes before coating. Solvent removes the oil at the surface and allows epoxy to penetrate. Be sure solvent has evaporated before coating. Porous woods-No special preparation needed. If surface is burnished, possibly by dull planer or saw blades, sand with 80-grit paper to open pores. Remove dust. Steel, lead-Remove contamination, sand or grind to bright metal, coat with epoxy then sand fresh epoxy into surface. Re-coat or bond after first coat gels. Aluminum-Sand and prepare with 860 Aluminum Etch Kit. Polyester (fiberglass)-Clean contamination with a silicone and wax remover such as DuPont Prep-Sol(tm) 3919S. Sand with 80-grit paper to a dull finish. Plastic-Adhesion varies. If a plastic is impervious to solvents such as acetone, epoxy generally will not bond to it. Soft, flexible plastics such as polyethylene, polypropylene, nylon, Plexiglas and polycarbonate fall into this category. Hard, rigid plastics such as PVC, ABS and styrene provide better adhesion with good surface preparation and adequate bonding area. After sanding, flame oxidizing (by quickly passing propane torch over the surface without melting the plastic) can improve bonding in some plastics. It's a good idea to conduct an adhesion test on a plastic that you are uncertain about. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:14 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

My tidbit to add to the engine question is just this: If you plan on cruising in one geographic area, then choose an engine from a manufacturer which gives you plenty of access to reasonably priced parts. If you plan to go offshore, then getting an engine that has world-wide support is handy, though there will always be one place or another which won't have what you need. If I thought I was going to cruise exclusively in a certain area, then I'd find an engine which is supported well in that region. What is the most popular marine engine in, say, the Carribean? I know that sounds obvious, but that didn't stop me from falling into the trap of buying a used Perkins diesel for a fire-sale price, only to learn that the parts-support network was virtually non-existent on the British Columbia coast. The result was that I had an engine that I could not install in my boat because I lacked key parts to mate it to the transmission. This was not the fault of Perkins, but the fault of Detroit-Diesel Allison of BC, which held the right to distribute Perkins parts but had shrugged its responsibilities. When I called Detroit-Diesel Allison about parts to the first time, I recall being met with very obvious indifference to my need by a company which evidently did not depend on the yachtsman for its bread on butter, but rather the larger industrial users. Perkins has reputedly taken steps to improve the situation, but I am understandably shy of the product. Asking around at the local docks about the type of engine that interests you will very quickly reveal the type that has the best quality and best service record, usually. Isuzu has a long tradition on this coast, both among pleasure boaters and fishermen. One shop in my area, Klassen Diesel, rebuilds them and sells them for a reasonable price (last time I checked). The parts network would extend up and down the coast, anywhere fishboats are found, and this is a comforting thought. I am guessing that worldwide parts availability is pretty good too, even in third world countries. Checking on the yachting forums by asking about this would be a surefire way of knowing. One origamiboat builder/owner installed one of Isuzu's new low-profile engines which fits perfectly just behind the companionway stairs where room is limited due to the rise of the hull toward the transom. Some thoughts, in any case. Alex Christie (moderator) ----- Original Message ----- From: carlmbentley <carlmbentley@y...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] engines > with winter here i'm hoping more of you are reading the board, actually i hope you are all in the islands but . . . since i'm not, i have a question or two. > > first: is there one (or three) brand of engine that everyone agrees is the best. well actually i'm just interested to see what some of you think in general, be it price v/s performance, lifespans, ease of maintance, or lack of part availability etc etc for different inboard diesel options. > > this seems to be the one of the expenses that can't really be avoided (aside from not having one) can't make your own, can go used i suppose, or improvise . . . > > let's say you have to buy one though - comments ? > > that's it, i'll hold off on the rest of my questions till after i read brents book, sorry if he covers this one already > > -carl > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:04 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

Carl asked about engines: I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15 caslingm@s... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:54 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

Michael, I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be. This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can be bought any smaller or not. Doug Pollard ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines Carl asked about engines: I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15 caslingm@s... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Joe Casey" <jcasey@w...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:57 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

Hi Douglas, Thank you for the informative post. Would you follow up with the model number and year of the basic engine and can you recall how you contacted the part of GM that deals in Isuzu engines and could answer your questions about it? Regards, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@o...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines > Michael, > I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be. > This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can be bought any smaller or not. > Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:04 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines > > > Carl asked about engines: > I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15 caslingm@s... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:05 am
Subject: Isuzu engines - rebore or resleeve?

Group, I'll do my part by calling the local Isuzu people and asking about the whole rebore\resleeve issue, as they do rebuilds regularly. I guess the main question would be, are these rebores or a rebore with a sleeve? I think the price on their 36 hp was about 5000 Cdn, but that was about 5 years ago. If that is still the case, it is a very good deal. I'll let you know! Alex Christie (moderator) From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

Hi Joe, I did not put sleeves in my engine as I found out to late, but I will, if I rebuild again. I was told about by the owner of M&S Engine or automotive [not to be confused with M&S Precision] who bored my engine. I called a number given to me by him and reached engineering at GM. The sleeves are not manufactured for that engine, but are for a GM engine I think. They are the right size to be used in the Izuzu engine. I do remember but the sleeves probably have to be bored after installation to fit the pistons? The engineer talked like just about any angina could be bored and sleeved at least that's the impression I got. My engine information is store in a storage unit as I am rebuilding my boat so numbers and such are not readily available at the moment. I think my engine is a model 3ab1 and was built about 1974. My engine was not built as a marine engine but was marinized by the boat manufacturer. I don't think Izuzu had entered the marine engine field at that time at least not with this particular model. I was told that the smaller engines they now sell are this same engine block. From the looks of several engines I have seen, I think all the more recent engines are the same block with anywhere from 2 to 6 cylinders.This may not be so. Izuzu sells a very good rebuild book that I'd buy even if I did not intend to rebuild any time soon. It is a real help in working on and understanding the engine. I also rebuilt the marine clutch. I bought a book from the manufacturer and a set of new clutch disks along with gaskets and seals. Getting the clutch disks in properly is a little tricky but other than that those things are very simple. They are certainly not some mysterious piece of machinery that the marine drive mechanics would have you believe. One of them told me I would never get it back together. It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of your engine and boat Hope this helps, Doug. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Casey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:57 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines Hi Douglas, Thank you for the informative post. Would you follow up with the model number and year of the basic engine and can you recall how you contacted the part of GM that deals in Isuzu engines and could answer your questions about it? Regards, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@o...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines > Michael, > I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be. > This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can be bought any smaller or not. > Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael Casling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:04 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines > > > Carl asked about engines: > I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15 caslingm@s... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:44 pm
Subject: isuzu and sabb engines

> It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of your engine and boat > Hope this helps, > Doug. Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of these boats. The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising experience (and the continuation of the cruising experience). I have never read a cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every chapter! A friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very reason. Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine. Too bad they no longer make that size. Alex Christie (moderator)

Replies Author Date 542 Re: isuzu and sabb engines Douglas Pollard Fri 1/25/2002 545 Re: isuzu and sabb engines ravensoars2001 Fri 1/25/2002
From: "nubiwan4thsig" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:45 pm
Subject: How much steel plate required

Does anyone have an idea how much sheet steel is required to make a 31 ft and 36 ft sailboat hull? I would like to get a cost estimate so I can determine the largest size boat I can afford. Thanks Larry Doyle From: "nubiwan4thsig" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:16 pm
Subject: How much steel?

can someone list the amount of steel to make a 31' and 36' hull. I would like to get an estimate to detirmine which is the longest I can afford. Larry Doyle

Replies Author Date 543 How much steel? lars_doyle Fri 1/25/2002 550 Re: How much steel? alex_christie Sat 1/26/2002 554 Re: How much steel? jim_cl Sat 1/26/2002 555 Re: How much steel? Larry Doyle Sat 1/26/2002 585 Re: How much steel? brentswain38 Wed 1/30/2002 556 Re: How much steel? Larry Doyle Sat 1/26/2002 559 Re: How much steel? Stephen Wandling Sun 1/27/2002 564 Re: How much steel? Alex & Kim Christie Sun 1/27/2002 587 Re: How much steel? Larry Doyle Thu 1/31/2002
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] isuzu and sabb engines

Alex, Tom Colvin has always recommended the Saab engine for that reason at least when he recommends an engine at all. I think he only has one to appease his wife. I heard him tell a fellow that was going to take his off shore fisherman to Bermuda one time that he was either the bravest or the dumbest guy in the world to go all that far without even a single sail. I kind of feel the same way about the fellow who doesn't know how to fix his boat and goes off wondering around in an ocean. To not be able to fix things while cruising is the fastest way for a guy to loose his wife's confidence. He may find himself standing on a tarmac somewhere watching his wife catch a plane back home. I think she is absolutely right to do that too. After all he has not properly prepared himself for the task they face. I have advised several people who were looking for boats to go off cruising in. These people seemed to have little or no mechanical know-how. I tried to get them to see that the preparation is a big part of the fun. These would be cruisers are probably three to five years from taking off on their adventure so I talked them into taking classes in Engine repair, a little woodworking and some kind of electrical classes. I see these skills as nearly as important to the ultimate success of their adventure as is learning to sail and navigate. Just my opinion, Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] isuzu and sabb engines > It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of your engine and boat > Hope this helps, > Doug. Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of these boats. The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising experience (and the continuation of the cruising experience). I have never read a cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every chapter! A friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very reason. Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine. Too bad they no longer make that size. Alex Christie (moderator) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:44 pm
Subject: How much steel?

can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and 36' sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can afford. Larry Doyle

Replies Author Date 550 Re: How much steel? alex_christie Sat 1/26/2002 554 Re: How much steel? jim_cl Sat 1/26/2002
From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:03 pm
Subject: Re: origami cat

Gary This may be the conoe you are thinking about: Swamp Yankee Boats canoe http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm Mat From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:22 pm
Subject: Re: isuzu and sabb engines

All this engine talk reminds me of the need to make a decision on a source of power. I have been looking at Kubota engines recently. We just replaced one that had been running "at camp" as a gen' set for over 20 years without a rebuild. The engine still runs well--the model is a 1902 and we replaced it with a 1903. They come in 37hp and 42hp etc. and are designed for use with a keel cooler rather than raw water. As a small four cylinder they tend to run quite smoothly and don't seem to leak. Brent's suggestion of forced air in--forced air out engine compartments should work well with an engine like this. I can procrastinate a little longer since i have more lead to scrounge for the ballast. One day power may turn out to be an inboard diesel . . . rt, building Swain 36 --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > > It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of > your engine and boat > > Hope this helps, > > Doug. > > Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of these > boats. The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising experience > (and the continuation of the cruising experience). I have never read a > cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every chapter! A > friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very reason. > Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small > selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine. Too bad they > no longer make that size. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: origami cat

Stephen Thanks very much. This link goes into more detail and has some pictures. http://www.amya.org/multihull/multi0009nl.pdf Mat From: "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 12:53 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat > Gary > > This may be the conoe you are thinking about: > > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe > > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm > > Mat> Yup, that's the one. Thanks. Gary From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 5:11 am
Subject: aluminum origami dinghy

Dear Group, I've posted two photos into the photos section of the aforementioned origami dinghy I spotted on Gabriola Island, BC. The designer of this particular boat is unknown. Alex From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:39 am
Subject: Re: origami cat

James, I think doing an origami cat is certainly possible. If you've already built the model hull shown in the files section then you understand the process intuitively, and can start playing around with card paper until you get the long slim hulls that cats ask for. Just stretch the lines, essentially, until you get the shape you want, and the card paper will tell you quite quickly what can and cannot be done with sheet material (essentially a very cheap 3-d plate modelling program!). I don't think the shape would be limited to types personified by plywood sheet construction entirely, as the aluminum can be "convinced" to take some curves that ply might not want to. In this way you can get a fairly curvy hull. Brent's system can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing). Its an intriguing idea. Take a peak at Tony Bigras' site http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/o7.htx on his 50 foot aluminum cat. I think it was built conventionally, but well worth a look, and you could alway try and email him for ideas. I saw a dinghy on the same island that Tony lives on (Gabriola) and was delighted to find it built origami-style, though different than Brent's system. I am not sure if it was Tony's or not. This dinghy is quite large and deep with unusual seams which led me to suspect that whoever built it made very good use of the aluminum sheets. I have a photo somewhere in my hard drive which I'll dig up and post for the group. It may yield some ideas for your project, and it shows that there is more than one way to skin an origami cat. Alex Christie (moderator) --- In origamiboats@y..., "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...> wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > > Thanks, > James Floyd

Replies Author Date 552 Re: origami cat james floyd Sat 1/26/2002
From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:09 am
Subject: Re: How much steel?

I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any help. Alex In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and 36' > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can > afford. > > Larry Doyle

Replies Author Date 554 Re: How much steel? jim_cl Sat 1/26/2002
From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:16 am
Subject: aluminum origami skiff

For your interest I've now posted those two photos I mentioned earlier of the aluminum origami skiff from Gabriola Island. The have been posted under the name, "aluminum origami skiff". Next time I am to that island I am going to try to track down the owner and ask him about the design's origins. Alex From: james floyd <lonedamnwolf1@y...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

Alex, Thank you for the encouraging words. So, you just manipulate the 'T' -shaped notch in the plate? Is there a mathematical formula for its placement? Brent Swain's book has not arrived yet. Let's say I get the two hulls built, Wharram-style, with an open bridgedeck; what determines where you place the mast? Any other books you recommend for me? I have seen and corresponded with Tony Bigras. He turned me on to this group! The boat I want to build will be in the 40 foot range. His was 50 and it took about 2500 hours. The origami sure would take a lot less time. Thanks, James --- alex_christie <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > James, > > I think doing an origami cat is certainly possible. > If you've > already built the model hull shown in the files > section then you > understand the process intuitively, and can start > playing around with > card paper until you get the long slim hulls that > cats ask for. Just > stretch the lines, essentially, until you get the > shape you want, and > the card paper will tell you quite quickly what can > and cannot be > done with sheet material (essentially a very cheap > 3-d plate > modelling program!). I don't think the shape would > be limited to > types personified by plywood sheet construction > entirely, as the > aluminum can be "convinced" to take some curves that > ply might not > want to. In this way you can get a fairly curvy > hull. Brent's system > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very > strong, and could > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form > toward the stern > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely > you could make > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I > think) very much > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm > guessing). Its an > intriguing idea. > > Take a peak at Tony Bigras' site > http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/o7.htx on his > 50 foot aluminum > cat. I think it was built conventionally, but well > worth a look, and > you could alway try and email him for ideas. > > I saw a dinghy on the same island that Tony lives on > (Gabriola) and > was delighted to find it built origami-style, though > different than > Brent's system. I am not sure if it was Tony's or > not. This dinghy > is quite large and deep with unusual seams which led > me to suspect > that whoever built it made very good use of the > aluminum sheets. I > have a photo somewhere in my hard drive which I'll > dig up and post > for the group. It may yield some ideas for your > project, and it shows > that there is more than one way to skin an origami > cat. > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "lonedamnwolf1" > <lonedamnwolf1@y...> wrote: > > Hello Everybody, > > > > Has anyone ever tried to build an origami > sailing cat out of > > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal > method. It is so > > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. > What cat design > > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind > Wharrams. Am I > missing > > something that makes this impossible? > > > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > > > > > Thanks, > > > James Floyd > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com From: "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

----- Original Message ----- From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> . Brent's system > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing). Its an > intriguing idea. I built a 46' Wharram in the 70's and sailed it from Seattle to the Queen Charlottes, down to San Francisco off shore non-stop from Queen Charlotte City, eventually to San Diego, and then to Hawaii, over 4 1/2 years. I would not use the Wharram hull form. In inland sailing they pitch a lot to windward because there is no bearing in the stern. This detracts from their already poor windward ability (no boards). Surfing they are very hard to steer as the bows bury in the wave ahead and they want to broach. . They are also slow to start surfing as the stern buries in the approaching wave instead of lifting and starting the boat down the wave face. After having the Wharram, I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvedment in hull form. A 40' origami aluminum cat sounds like a good idea. I would try to approach a more rounded modern cat form and have dagger or center boards or mini keels. Another drawback of the Wharram style is difficulty tacking because of the narrow deep hulls. They turn like they are on railroad tracks and lose way too soon. Fatter, roundbottomed hulls with boards will tack a lot easier. The deep V also has a lot of wetted surface which will slow it down in light air. Just a few thoughts from my exerience with a Wharram. Gary Lepak Port Angeles, WA

Replies Author Date 557 Re: origami cat-Wharram johm gorham Sat 1/26/2002 566 Re: origami cat-Wharram mat_man22 Sun 1/27/2002 567 Re: origami cat-Wharram Gary Lepak Sun 1/27/2002 575 Re: origami cat-Wharram mat_man22 Tue 1/29/2002 570 Re: origami cat-Wharram Gary H. Lucas Sun 1/27/2002 571 Re: origami cat-Wharram mat_man22 Mon 1/28/2002 573 Re: origami cat-Wharram Ditmore, Stephen Mon 1/28/2002 579 Re: origami cat-Wharram Ditmore, Stephen Tue 1/29/2002 580 Re: origami cat-Wharram Ditmore, Stephen Tue 1/29/2002
From: "jim_cl" <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: How much steel?

You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat. Having a smaller boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc. Many a dream boat has not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% of the boat. Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any > help. > > Alex > > In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and > 36' > > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can > > afford. > > > > Larry Doyle From: "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:03 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?

Alex, Thanks for the reply. Larry Doyle ----- Original Message ----- From: alex_christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any help. Alex In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and 36' > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can > afford. > > Larry Doyle Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 585 Re: How much steel? brentswain38 Wed 1/30/2002
From: "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:07 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?

Jim, Thanks for the reply. In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat. Depending on how much sweat equity you put in. However, it's still a large chunk of change that has to be considered. Larry Doyle ----- Original Message ----- From: jim_cl To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat. Having a smaller boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc. Many a dream boat has not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% of the boat. Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any > help. > > Alex > > In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and > 36' > > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can > > afford. > > > > Larry Doyle Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: johm gorham <arkrecovery@y...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:27 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

Hello,Iam on an atkins 36 foot steel cutter.I was hit at anchor in Richardson Bay by a Japanese fishing vessel going to sea.The owner Mr. Onishi wandered off the channel.He was traveling about fifiteen to twenty knots.The vessel smacked my stern doing considerable damage to the transom,bulwark,self steering device,was damaged but new parts brought it back into action.The reason for steel really came home.Any other vessel would be at the bottom of the bay.Aftr,using a torch and heating the area,a large cheater attached by heavy duty monster c clamps,fianlly in less than 8 hours got it pretty much back to normal.A wooden vessel would of been a total loss.The fiberglass vessel would of split in two pieces.Insurance money thank God came through,after three month of promises.When will these coperations go through the pain they cause.I appreciate if you all will never forget why we build our ships of steel..John Gorham Sailing Vessel Rose.Please forward Gary Lepak <gnjlepak@o...> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> . Brent's system > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing). Its an > intriguing idea. I built a 46' Wharram in the 70's and sailed it from Seattle to the Queen Charlottes, down to San Francisco off shore non-stop from Queen Charlotte City, eventually to San Diego, and then to Hawaii, over 4 1/2 years. I would not use the Wharram hull form. In inland sailing they pitch a lot to windward because there is no bearing in the stern. This detracts from their already poor windward ability (no boards). Surfing they are very hard to steer as the bows bury in the wave ahead and they want to broach. . They are also slow to start surfing as the stern buries in the approaching wave instead of lifting and starting the boat down the wave face. After having the Wharram, I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvedment in hull form. A 40' origami aluminum cat sounds like a good idea. I would try to approach a more rounded modern cat form and have dagger or center boards or mini keels. Another drawback of the Wharram style is difficulty tacking because of the narrow deep hulls. They turn like they are on railroad tracks and lose way too soon. Fatter, roundbottomed hulls with boards will tack a lot easier. The deep V also has a lot of wetted surface which will slow it down in light air. Just a few thoughts from my exerience with a Wharram. Gary Lepak Port Angeles, WA Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions Great stuff seeking new owners! Bid now! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections. I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500. I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct. I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly. Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be. Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch. I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point. Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more. I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try. Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat. I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Lepak To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat > Gary > > This may be the conoe you are thinking about: > > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe > > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm > > Mat> Yup, that's the one. Thanks. Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 561 Re: origami cat mat_man22 Sun 1/27/2002
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:04 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?

Larry, It's my understanding that the steel for hull, deck and cabin for a 36' Swain hull will cost about CD$8,000 here in Canada. I believe this is for wheel abraded, zinc rich primed steel. Stephen Larry Doyle wrote: > Jim, > > Thanks for the reply. > In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that > the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat. > Depending on how much sweat equity you put in. However, it's still a > large chunk of change that has to be considered. > > Larry Doyle > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jim_cl > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? > > > > You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably > around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat. Having a smaller > > boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also > > in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc. Many a dream boat has > not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% > of the boat. Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer > this > > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any > > help. > > > > Alex > > > > In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' > and > > 36' > > > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I > can > > > afford. > > > > > > Larry Doyle > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor [] ---------------------------------------------------------- > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 4:36 am
Subject: Size

Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire caslingm@s... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 565 Re: Size Larry Doyle Sun 1/27/2002
From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:37 am
Subject: Re: origami cat

Gary Lucas Wow, thanks for your post. You have done a lot things I have been thinking of. Wouldn't Swamp Yankee Boats canoe be allot closer to a cat than one of Brents designs? (and a lot cheaper at $15) http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm I read that the Rhino demo would last longer if you didn't shut it or your computer down. Also found a user group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/ From this group I learned that a full powered legal copy could be obtained cheaper by transfering a student version. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/message/112 Thanks Mat From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 8:48 am
Subject: 40 steel approx. steel costs and other considerations

I am still waiting for my steel quote for the 40, but I am guessing that the steel, wheel abraded and primed, will come in at about $11,000 Cdn. The advantage of zinc-rich pre-primed steel is that it avoids one expensive and troublesome step normally associated with steel boatbuilding: there is no need to sand-blast this steel before painting. It has all been done for you before you put the boat together. There are minimal weld seams on the origami boat, and you just grind and prime these spots by hand before painting. It avoids the "rusted hulk" look that many steel boat projects take on, and is probably a major factor in keeping the local complaints to a minimum when a 36 foot sailboat hull suddenly sprouts next to your urban house (see "Austin Hull" in the photo files section for an example of this). A few boats have been launched only dressed in primer, then painted later successfully. It may sound heretical to do this to some, but it is a nice option to have in your back pocket should, say, you rented building site no longer offer secure tenure (it seems the destiny of many rental situations to sour in time). This type of thing appeals to the "survivalist" in me, in that, rather than locking me into one pattern of action, I am offered options along the way. This is the essence of the unconventional boatbuilding method that Brent has developed, and along with that comes a survivalist or do-it-yourself philosphy as a logical extension of the practice. Call it "The Spiritual Side of Origami boatbuilding" if you will. It is not for every body, and for those that can afford to just go out and buy what they want without concern for cost, there are some great yachtbuilders I know of that can build a beautiful steel boat for the right price. Try www.kristenyachts.com in Sydney, BC, or www.waterlineyachts.com for examples of some nice boats for people with deep pockets. I really like metal boatbuilder Topper Hermansen's work at www.thboats.com , and just go and read his inspiring treatise on steel and aluminum for boatbuilding at http://www.thboats.com/pages/advmetal.html. His advice on how to analzye a design objectively for your needs is great. I am going to list some of the options available to the origami boatbuilder that may not be available to those taking the conventional approach (although they could adapt some things): Mast: Buy new, or build yourself with Brent's instructions. Interior: Finish meticulously to high standards, or foam it, put in a plywood bunk, basic galley, bucket for a head, and go cruising now (finish as you go). One person Brent know of has done this and is off bluewater sailing, solo (okay, it might make it a little hard to attract your wife to go along!), but he is doing it, which is what counts in the end. Exterior: Finish all coats or grind and prime weld seams and launch vessel early to escape impending military coup (I'm half-joking, but this could be the case for someone somwhere in the world...) Engine: Install engine you want, or just install engine bed for desired engine for a future date and sail away with a good high- thrust outboard from Yamaha or Honda. I am sure there are other options my tired brain can't think of right now, but you get my drift. The point is to go now, go safely, but go and stop dithering. Dithering is another pursuit with its own joys, and I won't outright criticize it, having done my share of dithering! Alex > Larry, > > It's my understanding that the steel for hull, deck and cabin for a 36' > Swain hull will cost about CD$8,000 here in Canada. I believe this is > for wheel abraded, zinc rich primed steel. > > Stephen > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:59 am
Subject: 40 footer -- reasons for choice

----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling <caslingm@s...> To: Alex Christie <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 8:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Size > Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would >like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, >and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks Michael >Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire caslingm@s... Michael, the question of choice between sizes is very much in my mind lately, so good that you should ask. I have done a lot of soul-searching and deep thought over taking on the 40 footer project versus the 36, and it was only very recently that I really made the choice between the two. Brent has always advised building the smallest boat that can fulfill your needs, and wisely pointed to the fact that our kids won't be sticking around with us on our boat forever. Therefore the 36 would be perfect for a couple, or a couple cruising locally upcoast with 2 kids. I have visited two different couples on their 36 footers, and I have to say their choice of hull size is a "match made in heaven". Just big enough for very comfortable world cruising or living aboard, low-strain rig, fast enough, easy to handle in tight quarters around docks and in canals, and economic in a slip. Maintenance-wise it is not a freakish amount of hull skin to bottom paint (apologies to Steve Dashew, but could you imagine doing one of his 60 footers in a casual afternoon?). Keeping your boat in shape should not be a nightmare, it should be a reasonable and pleasant pursuit. Basically the 36 is big enough when you need it big, and small enough when you need it small. The 36 is what I'd call the quintessential all-around "suv" of the Swain boats, and must be the most popular by far of his designs. I think it is the biggest boat you can build easily without special plate handling equipment. For example each half shell of the hull (see photos) before being zipped to the other half can be rocked back and forth with one person on either end and thus "walked" into position. No tractor, crane or forklift is needed to build that boat. For local cruising on the BC coast, I am sure the 36 would be fine for my family of two adults and two kids (maybe the two 60 lbs dogs would have to stay ashore). If it was just my wife and I living aboard, then the 36 would be for us, most definitely. If I were a single gent I'd be building the 31 or 36. The only reason I have chosen to build the 40 is that we plan on living aboard full time with our kid and dog collection (I haven't actually told the dogs about their impending lifestyle change, but they seem to be only interested in much sleeping interspersed with frenzied running on a beach, so should adapt quite well). We simply need the space if we want the lifestyle to be sustainable (key word), and the 40 is one big boat compared to the 36, since it is more than length that is different. I'd like our two girls to feel "at home" with some space of their own (within the constraints of the boat size, of course -- they won't get "princess rooms" with their own phones, stereo and colour tv!), and to not feel like they are always under the parental gaze. And we in turn will desire some privacy (ah blessed aft cabin calling my name...). I never thought about speed, funny that, but I suppose it might be a bit faster than the 36. Building the boat will be a little more challenging, but not impossible. Whereas the deckplates of the 36 can be installed by two people manually, the 40 will need some assistance from an overhead winch/cable arrangement which I'll rig up using some of our big douglas fir trees. A friend does the same thing at his log home building business, and slings huge beams with it. I'll copy that one. The 40 will take more lead to ballast, more time to fit out the interior, and a slightly bigger engine I suppose, plus a larger mast and sail arrangement. Being that it'll be our home, I hold no grudge at the extra time required by the bigger size in all the aspects. If this were to be a weekend cruiser or two person bluewater boat, I would question my sanity directly and go build the 36, no doubts there, but other might think differently. 40 seems to be this magic number that defines the idea of "bluewater" boat these days, and there is one yacht rally I dimly recall where they limited the entrants to those with 40 footers and up. This was a bit arbitrary since displacement values could really change the nature of any of those boats in terms of speed and carrying capacity, but they felt they had to draw a line somewhere. I don't think the 40 will be much more costly to build, other than a little more plate to purchase at the outset. Brent pointed out all the detailing will be pretty much the same as on the 36, and an engine is needed for any size boats as well as any electronics or other doo-dads you'd have on a boat. To answer your last question about engine placement: the engine I saw freshly installed on a 36 was located under the cockpit floor at its forward end, and it fit very nicely. It was the low profile Isuzu, so this likely helped in keeping its position right behind the companionway steps. Might be different with a very large, tall engine. The engine on our 40 will likely be under the centre cockpit floor because we'll be building an aft cabin version, and should have its own "engine room" like a Whitby 42 by Brewer, or at least easily removed side-acccess panels. As to comfort at sea, both the 36 and 40 are moderate displacement boats and I think would fare comparably in rough sea conditions. Only a test offshore will really tell, of course, so I'll let you know! Alex Christie From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:08 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?

Jim has a good point about keeping it simple. The only thing I'd add is that with what I've seen in Brent's book, you can make alot of the things you'd normally buy, so building them for a larger is not a problem. Even with the larger sails and winches, you can do very well if you are a good scrounger and keep your eyes peeled for good quality used items. If you want to buy off the shelf, then sticking with the smallest boat which suits your needs is the quickest way to get afloat and start having fun. Keeping it small and simple is definitely Brent's way, even if the odd duck who builds one of his boats is bent on complicating things! But customization to your own tastes is also what these boats can be as well. Each boat I've seen really reflects the personality of the owners. Alex Christie ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Doyle <ldoyle@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? > Jim, > > Thanks for the reply. > In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat. Depending on how much sweat equity you put in. However, it's still a large chunk of change that has to be considered. > > Larry Doyle > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jim_cl > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:48 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? > You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably > around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat. Having a smaller > boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also > in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc. Many a dream boat has > not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% > of the boat. Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. > > From: "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:51 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Size

Michael, Just a note on the speed difference between a 36 and a 40. The calculation for theoretical speed of a displacement boat is 1.34 * sqr(LWL). So, a 36's calculated speed would be 1.34 * sqr(29)= 7.2 knots and a 40's would be, and I guessed at the 40's LWL because I don't have it, 1.34 * sqr(35) = 7.9 knots. Of course, this assumes the boat has enough propulsion energy to drive it that fast. Larry Doyle ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: Alex Christie Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Size Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire caslingm@s... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: origami cat-Wharram

Hi Gary Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html I think it would have to make it out of (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with epoxy. 3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type plans. I think I could match the rocker. (Hope they would be of scale?) Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this. Mat From: "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:21 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

Hi Mat, ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> > Hi Gary > > Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Not sure what you are referring to here. Plans for what boat? > Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up > to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' No, I don't think it would be a very good cat hull. Not enough rocker for easy turning, and the identical ends are likely to allow pitching. The waterline beam would be wide for a cat too. Better to have a fuller stern than bow. It might make a good proa hull though as proas don't need to tack so the lack of rocker and quickturning ability doesn't matter. > I think it would have to make it out of > (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX > pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be > cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with > epoxy. I think 1/4" for a 24' cat would be ok, and save some weight which is important in a cat. > The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html > He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") > I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. The deep V of the Swamp Yankee is the problem. I could tell by looking at the pictures that it would be very tender. I personally think it is a dangerous boat for anyone not prepared to go for a swim. I think it would make a great litlle outrigger canoe, though, with an outrigger on just one side, Polynesian style. Nothing un-macho about that. As far as the construction technique goes, I don't see it saves any labor for this shape and size and material, over using 4 separate pieces of ply. Then the shape could be varied more to suit the design needs, like having a transom. Personally, for a 24' low budget easy to build cat I would use simple flat-bottomed dory-shaped hulls as used here http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html Also, Bill Kristofferson has a flatbottomed 24' cat, with or without a centerdeck cabin. http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm If you want a more tortured ply cat hull, you might try Kurt Hughes cylinder mold technique http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ for rounded bottomed hulls. Another speedbuilding round bottomed cat hull technique in foam sandwich is Derek Kelsall's KSS (Kelsall Swift Sandwich) http://www.kelsall.com/ I would start with a design concept (24' catamaran) and then look at what designs and building techniques are out there, rather than trying to make the design fit a certain building techique. I think Origami is great for large metal monohulls, with a lot of curvature but long slender multihulls have other needs and possibilities. You might want to try posting your questions on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder mail list to get some input from other builders and wouldbe builders about different techniques. My apologies to the metal boatbuilders for being so far off topic. Gary Lepak

Replies Author Date 575 Re: origami cat-Wharram mat_man22 Tue 1/29/2002
From: Gord Schnell <gschnell@s...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 8:51 pm
Subject: 40' Brent Swain

This message was directed to Alex. I hope he won't mind if I add my thoughts. I am building a 40'. Owners of 36' boats who have toured the 40' are generally amazed at the extra space. Since she has not yet been to sea, I can't comment of the speed or sea-kindliness. The engine straddles the aft portion of the keel beneath the pilothouse floor. I have not seen a 36' with sufficient room under the floor to accommodate an engine. Gord Schnell Michael Casling wrote: Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire caslingm@s... From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:54 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

Mat, I haven't heard of Swamp Yankee Boats so I don't understand your comparison. The Rhino demo shuts down automatically after 24 hours, I tried that. The real users group is at news.rhino3d.com and the support there is incredible, best of any software product I've ever used. Most of us licensed users are running BETAs. McNeel starts the beta process almost as soon as a new product is released for the next version. We do this because our experience has been that a Rhino beta is more stable than most major releases from other companies, AND we get to use new features that save us time and money right away! Rhino might look pricey compared to say a word processor. Most people however compare it favorably to so called 'professional' software that typically costs at least 5 to 10 times as much. They are also very fair, those of us that bought the 1.1 upgrade got Version 2 for free! I find the best price I can but when it is good stuff I bite the bullet and go for it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: mat_man22 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Gary Lucas Wow, thanks for your post. You have done a lot things I have been thinking of. Wouldn't Swamp Yankee Boats canoe be allot closer to a cat than one of Brents designs? (and a lot cheaper at $15) http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm I read that the Rhino demo would last longer if you didn't shut it or your computer down. Also found a user group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/ From this group I learned that a full powered legal copy could be obtained cheaper by transfering a student version. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/message/112 Thanks Mat To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:14 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

Hey, I'm not a boat designer I am a machine designer, big difference! All I am doing is playing. I took a look at the Swamp Yankee Canoe photos. From my playing I would say Brent's method works best on long deep hulls with a narrow beam, like this canoe. This shape would be quite easy to model in Rhino, especially because both ends are the same. The lines of that canoe don't look particularly fair. I think a few hours with Rhino and the designer could have gotten a better looking boat. The canoe also illustrates one of the big advantages of metal. The fastening system (welding) is inherently much easier to make smooth joints than all that putty nonsense. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: mat_man22 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram Hi Gary Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html I think it would have to make it out of (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with epoxy. 3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type plans. I think I could match the rocker. (Hope they would be of scale?) Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this. Mat To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 6:57 am
Subject: Re: origami cat-Wharram

> I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with > fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvement in > hull form. Gary Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best. http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html I think it would have to make it out of (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX pine but would it be too thick? 3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") I don't know if might have caused his problems. I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type plans. I think I could match the rocker. (Hope they would be of scale?) Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this. Mat From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:51 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations showing how an origami boat might be developed at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db 5ba560 <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d b5ba560&threadid=248> &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's not a big deal). A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/> Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck! Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections. I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500. I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct. I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly. Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be. Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch. I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point. Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more. I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try. Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat. I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Lepak To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat > Gary > > This may be the conoe you are thinking about: > > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe > > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html> > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm> > > Mat> Yup, that's the one. Thanks. Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=371491714> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 7:43 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

If you play with http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm <http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm> you'll find that you want a much higher prismatic coefficient for a catamaran than for a canoe. I've heard that the Woods designs are good performers. Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@o...] Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram Hi Mat, ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> > Hi Gary > > Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Not sure what you are referring to here. Plans for what boat? > Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up > to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' No, I don't think it would be a very good cat hull. Not enough rocker for easy turning, and the identical ends are likely to allow pitching. The waterline beam would be wide for a cat too. Better to have a fuller stern than bow. It might make a good proa hull though as proas don't need to tack so the lack of rocker and quickturning ability doesn't matter. > I think it would have to make it out of > (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX > pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be > cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with > epoxy. I think 1/4" for a 24' cat would be ok, and save some weight which is important in a cat. > The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html> > He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") > I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. The deep V of the Swamp Yankee is the problem. I could tell by looking at the pictures that it would be very tender. I personally think it is a dangerous boat for anyone not prepared to go for a swim. I think it would make a great litlle outrigger canoe, though, with an outrigger on just one side, Polynesian style. Nothing un-macho about that. As far as the construction technique goes, I don't see it saves any labor for this shape and size and material, over using 4 separate pieces of ply. Then the shape could be varied more to suit the design needs, like having a transom. Personally, for a 24' low budget easy to build cat I would use simple flat-bottomed dory-shaped hulls as used here http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html <http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html> Also, Bill Kristofferson has a flatbottomed 24' cat, with or without a centerdeck cabin. http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm <http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm> If you want a more tortured ply cat hull, you might try Kurt Hughes cylinder mold technique http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> for rounded bottomed hulls. Another speedbuilding round bottomed cat hull technique in foam sandwich is Derek Kelsall's KSS (Kelsall Swift Sandwich) http://www.kelsall.com/ <http://www.kelsall.com/> I would start with a design concept (24' catamaran) and then look at what designs and building techniques are out there, rather than trying to make the design fit a certain building techique. I think Origami is great for large metal monohulls, with a lot of curvature but long slender multihulls have other needs and possibilities. You might want to try posting your questions on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder mail list to get some input from other builders and wouldbe builders about different techniques. My apologies to the metal boatbuilders for being so far off topic. Gary Lepak Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=340069456> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am
Subject: Specs for Swain's boats

Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's sailboats. Also, line drawings of the boats would be nice. Larry Doyle

Replies Author Date 576 Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36) alex_christie Tue 1/29/2002
From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:33 am
Subject: Re: origami cat-Wharram

Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a lot more fun than making big mistakes. Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my posts for many hours. Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had in the past and find you ideas very enlighting. If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20 years old. http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this concept into larger cruising designs. Are there others? I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/ Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm Thanks Mat From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:37 am
Subject: Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36)

--- In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's sailboats. In answer to your request, I have cut and pasted Brent's response to the same question from awhile back. I don't know the exact details of the 27 or the 40, though, so perhaps Brent might fill these in. I don't have lines drawings myself, but will look into this. ---Alex "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel . Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel." From: "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:14 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36)

Alex, Thank's for the quick response. I found the post you referenced several days ago. However, it doesn't give all needed data. For instance here is the specs from an add for plans for a sailboat kit I found on the net: L.O.D. 10.03 m 32' 11" L.W.L. 8.13 m 26' 7" BEAM 3.66 m 12' 0" DRAFT 1.22 m 4' 0" DISPLACEMENT 10,000 kg 22,000 lb BALLAST 3,400 kg 7,500 lb AUX PWR 20 - 33 hp These specs were then followed with several line drawings showing the side, top and a sample interior layout. Something like this would be very helpful in deciding which set of plans to purchase. Larry Doyle ----- Original Message ----- From: alex_christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36) --- In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's sailboats. In answer to your request, I have cut and pasted Brent's response to the same question from awhile back. I don't know the exact details of the 27 or the 40, though, so perhaps Brent might fill these in. I don't have lines drawings myself, but will look into this. ---Alex "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel . Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:02 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand new Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy with the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described Volvo to me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about Yanmar. Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high revving motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a slightly larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is much better in every way. If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have seen VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. Regards, Richard.

Replies Author Date 582 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Tue 1/29/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:05 pm
Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or calling him if you have too). Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> could be adapted to multihulls. And note, the people who used to build "FastWater" origami boats in B.C. have moved to Florida and are now building origami catamarans. Their web site is http://www.sailtechdesign.com/ <http://www.sailtechdesign.com/> Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: mat_man22 [mailto:mat_man@u...] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a lot more fun than making big mistakes. Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my posts for many hours. Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/> I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had in the past and find you ideas very enlighting. If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20 years old. http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html <http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html> Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this concept into larger cruising designs. Are there others? I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/ <http://dixdesign.com/> Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm <http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm> Thanks Mat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=104596530> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:26 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram

I think Malcolm Tennant at http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/ <http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/> also offers tortured plywood designs. -----Original Message----- From: Ditmore, Stephen Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 8:11 AM To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or calling him if you have too). Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> could be adapted to multihulls. And note, the people who used to build "FastWater" origami boats in B.C. have moved to Florida and are now building origami catamarans. Their web site is http://www.sailtechdesign.com/ <http://www.sailtechdesign.com/> Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: mat_man22 [mailto:mat_man@u...] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a lot more fun than making big mistakes. Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my posts for many hours. Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/> I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had in the past and find you ideas very enlighting. If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20 years old. http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html <http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html> Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this concept into larger cruising designs. Are there others? I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/ <http://dixdesign.com/> Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm <http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm> Thanks Mat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=104596530> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:27 pm
Subject: origami cat-cylinder mold

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> > For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, > http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> > but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or > calling him if you have too). Basically, cylinder molding, CM, developed from tortured plywood to get a fuller hull shape with more displacement. The idea is to make two hull halves on a curved mold where every frame is the same shape. It is not exactly a cylinder, but more of a "j" shape with the straight part becoming the topsides. The curved part is not quite as round as in the letter J. The skin is made of 2 or 3 layers of 3 or 4 mm ply vacuum bagged together with epoxy. The molds are set at nearly the same level. The curve of the stem and rocker are cut out and then the two pieces are wired together along the keel and tortured into shape. It is a bit tricky to get it symmetrical, as it always wants to pop to one side or another to relieve the stress. I bought Kurt's video which shows the method in detail actually building a 40' tri. Definitely watch the video before choosing this method. Check out this link of a 30' Kurt Hughes cat built this way http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jdory/boat.htm#Building > Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at > http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ > <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> > could be adapted to multihulls. I couldn't find much detail of the exact method here, just the vague description of it with no pictues. Is there more about it somewhere else? The hull shapes look nice, with flatter bottoms than what I've seen on other tortured kayak/canoe designs. Thanks for the links, the Fastwater one is interesting too. Gary Lepak

Replies Author Date 584 Re: origami cat-cylinder mold pvanderwaart Wed 1/30/2002 591 Re: origami cat-cylinder mold Ditmore, Stephen Thu 1/31/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: engines

The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu. 3:1 reduction makes sense given the higher rpm. Helpful comment: thanks. I have just found a 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged. The prop came at the right price. Just working on the math for reduction. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand new > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy with > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described Volvo to > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about Yanmar. > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high revving > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a slightly > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is much > better in every way. > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have seen > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > Regards, Richard. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:35 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines

Just a thought rt, but Dave Gerr's Propellor Handbook seems like the right source for tables you might need for working out the right reduction. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@h...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, > Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu. 3:1 reduction makes sense > given the higher rpm. Helpful comment: thanks. I have just found a > 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged. The > prop came at the right price. Just working on the math for > reduction. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand > new > > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy > with > > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described > Volvo to > > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about > Yanmar. > > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high > revving > > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a > slightly > > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is > much > > better in every way. > > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have > seen > > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > > Regards, Richard. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

Replies Author Date 586 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 1/31/2002
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:51 pm
Subject: Re: origami cat-cylinder mold

I sailed on a Hughes-designed, cylinder-molded cat that is a day- charter boat in Bermuda. It was very impressive. The cylinder mold is supposed to be a simplification of the constant camber system. This patented system was supposed to simplify the construction of light weight boats through the purchase of laminated panels made up on a torus-shaped form. Unfortunately, the premise that the constant camber panels would be cheaply available from a full-time panel-making enterprise was never realized. Be that as it may, if you are interested in a home-built multihull, the Jim Brown-John Marples designs are worth a look. www.searunner.com. As for oragami methods, I have not worked at it, but I am a little dubious. Most multihull designers want a long waterline for speed, but short overhangs to reduce pitching. This is hard to do in panel material without cutting the panels. Peter From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:35 pm
Subject: Re: How much steel?

The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows Hull- 2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate 1-4x8 ft x 3/16th Decks cabin etc 10- 4x8 x 1/8th 1-6x12x1/8th Keel(s) 1-5x12x1/4 1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl Twin Keels leading edges 2-3ft6"x2"shaft Single 5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness ) Twin keel supports 4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths Deck stiffners 10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar 16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe Ballast 3500 lbs lead . For the 36 it's as follows 2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate 1-4x8x3/16th plate 3-5x10x1/8th" 5 -4x8x1/8th" pl 1 -6x20x1/8th" 1-8x12x1/4 inch plate 10- 1" x1"x20ft angle 14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft 1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6 inces longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid shaft leading edges of the twin keels . Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe 16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe 4500 lbs of lead ballast When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of the clips . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > Alex, > > Thanks for the reply. > > Larry Doyle > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alex_christie > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? > > > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any > help. > > Alex > > In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and > 36' > > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can > > afford. > > > > Larry Doyle > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 12:38 am
Subject: Re: engines

Alex, thanks. I loaned out one of my Gerr books out that has a chapter on props--waiting for it to return. In the mean-time--need to trim this prop down as per the section on props in Brents book. Will borrow a plazma to cut it down once the rest of the math comes together. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Just a thought rt, but Dave Gerr's Propellor Handbook seems like the right > source for tables you might need for working out the right reduction. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > > The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, > > Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu. 3:1 reduction makes sense > > given the higher rpm. Helpful comment: thanks. I have just found a > > 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged. The > > prop came at the right price. Just working on the math for > > reduction. rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand > > new > > > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > > > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy > > with > > > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > > > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > > > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described > > Volvo to > > > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about > > Yanmar. > > > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > > > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > > > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high > > revving > > > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > > > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a > > slightly > > > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is > > much > > > better in every way. > > > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > > > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have > > seen > > > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > > > Regards, Richard. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From: "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:37 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?

Brent, Thanks for the list of steel needed for the 31 and 36. It's exactly what I needed. Larry Doyle ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows Hull- 2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate 1-4x8 ft x 3/16th Decks cabin etc 10- 4x8 x 1/8th 1-6x12x1/8th Keel(s) 1-5x12x1/4 1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl Twin Keels leading edges 2-3ft6"x2"shaft Single 5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness ) Twin keel supports 4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths Deck stiffners 10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar 16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe Ballast 3500 lbs lead . For the 36 it's as follows 2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate 1-4x8x3/16th plate 3-5x10x1/8th" 5 -4x8x1/8th" pl 1 -6x20x1/8th" 1-8x12x1/4 inch plate 10- 1" x1"x20ft angle 14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft 1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6 inces longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid shaft leading edges of the twin keels . Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe 16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe 4500 lbs of lead ballast When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of the clips . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > Alex, > > Thanks for the reply. > > Larry Doyle > ----- Original Message ----- > From: alex_christie > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? > > > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any > help. > > Alex > > In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and > 36' > > sailboat. I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can > > afford. > > > > Larry Doyle > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:38 am
Subject: main hatch dimensions

I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa. and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats. I am interested in Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they or a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and any other info related to it. such as wether it opens fully or is blocked by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook. If anyone else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot house please let me know. You can post messages ant this site or send to the address below. Greg WIJNANDA@H...

Replies Author Date 589 Re: main hatch dimensions alex_christie Thu 1/31/2002 592 Re: main hatch dimensions evanmoonjunk Thu 1/31/2002 607 Re: main hatch dimensions brentswain38 Wed 2/6/2002 593 Re: main hatch dimensions carlmbentley Thu 1/31/2002 600 Re: main hatch dimensions Richard Payne Sat 2/2/2002
From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 6:52 am
Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions

Greg, I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this shows his hatch configuration. It doesn't sound exactly like what you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the hatch door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one piece, there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this would be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent Hatch, of course. Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa. > and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the > size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats. I am interested in > Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they or > a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and any > other info related to it. such as wether it opens fully or is blocked > by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit > well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it > comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook. If anyone > else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that > would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot > house please let me know. You can post messages ant this site or send > to the address below. > > > Greg > WIJNANDA@H...

Replies Author Date 592 Re: main hatch dimensions evanmoonjunk Thu 1/31/2002 607 Re: main hatch dimensions brentswain38 Wed 2/6/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:27 pm
Subject: Scandinavian version of Origami?

Is this a Scandinavian version of Origami? http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html <http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html> The software looks interesting, especially for Mac users. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:58 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat-cylinder mold

As applied to multihull construction I see it being analogous to sailmaking. Imagine you're going to scarf together 12 sheets of plywood along their long edges to form an 8' x 40' (allowing for the scarves) foot panel. Before cutting the scarves you trim each long edge like a sailmaker trims panels of sailcloth, giving each long edge some curvature... Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@o...] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat-cylinder mold I couldn't find much detail of the exact method here, just the vague description of it with no pictues. Is there more about it somewhere else? The hull shapes look nice, with flatter bottoms than what I've seen on other tortured kayak/canoe designs. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ditmore, Stephen" sditmore@n... <mailto:sditmore@n...> > Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at > http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> > < http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> > > could be adapted to multihulls. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "evanmoonjunk" <evanmoonjunk@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions

--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Greg, > > I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to > the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this > shows his hatch configuration. It doesn't sound exactly like what > you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the hatch > door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one piece, > there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this would > be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent Hatch, > of course. > > Alex > Hi Gang, the hatch on Karls boat is a regular door with the part on top that flips up and hinged forward like a cabin top hatch. He also did not want the cupola, so the alternative was either a sliding hatch or flip....Evan > --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, > Wa. > > and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the > > size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats. I am interested > in > > Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they > or > > a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and > any > > other info related to it. such as wether it opens fully or is > blocked > > by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit > > well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it > > comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook. If anyone > > else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that > > would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot > > house please let me know. You can post messages ant this site or > send > > to the address below. > > > > > > Greg > > WIJNANDA@H... From: "carlmbentley" <carlmbentley@y...>
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:01 pm
Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions

--- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa. your city caught my attention. ever heard of brion toss the rigger ? he's from port townsend i believe. if so what's your opinion, just curious. -carl From: "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 1:07 am
Subject: Swain boats on the East coast

Are there any Swain boats on the East coast? Larry Doyle From: "cdbarry12" <cdbarry@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 1:25 am
Subject: Anyone going to IBEX

I'll be at IBEX this year (www.ibexshow.com), especially session 505. Say hi if you see me. From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 5:56 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite.

Am playing with the idea of removing the steel deck and cabin from Nekeyah, raising the freeboard and building a flush deck and deckhouse from marine grade aluminum. Should result in a drier, lighter and roomier boat. I expect to provide a flange of stainless to bolt the aluminum deck to, and use appropriate insulation between the aluminum and the stainless. Have any of you had any experience with this form of composite construction? I would be interested in your comments. Regards, Richard.

Replies Author Date 597 Re: steel/aluminium composite. Ditmore, Stephen Fri 2/1/2002 602 Re: steel/aluminium composite. Richard Payne Sun 2/3/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 1:13 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite.

You should look into using a "detacouple" - a bar of aluminum and a bar of steel fused together using an explosive. You can then weld to both sides. But I agree that it can also be done using an insulating material and mechanical fasteners, esp. if you also use 5200, Sikaflex, or similar. Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Richard Payne [mailto:nekeyah@c...] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:57 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite. Am playing with the idea of removing the steel deck and cabin from Nekeyah, raising the freeboard and building a flush deck and deckhouse from marine grade aluminum. Should result in a drier, lighter and roomier boat. I expect to provide a flange of stainless to bolt the aluminum deck to, and use appropriate insulation between the aluminum and the stainless. Have any of you had any experience with this form of composite construction? I would be interested in your comments. Regards, Richard. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=213858.1871318.3370210.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=213858.1871318.3370210.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=763352/rand=697713308> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines

Practical Sailor just did an interesting article on diesel engines. The point was made that Yanmars are kind of rough running, but they have a huge market share. If they were major trouble the big boat builders would drop them like a hot potato. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu. 3:1 reduction makes sense given the higher rpm. Helpful comment: thanks. I have just found a 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged. The prop came at the right price. Just working on the math for reduction. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand new > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy with > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described Volvo to > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about Yanmar. > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high revving > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a slightly > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is much > better in every way. > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have seen > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > Regards, Richard. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 601 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Sun 2/3/2002 638 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Tue 2/12/2002 639 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Wed 2/13/2002 656 Re: engines brentswain38 Sun 2/17/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:16 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

Stephen, I can't get your links to work. Is the URL too long for the page causing the problem? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Ditmore, Stephen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:51 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations showing how an origami boat might be developed at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db 5ba560 <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d b5ba560&threadid=248> &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's not a big deal). A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/> Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck! Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections. I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500. I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct. I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly. Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be. Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch. I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point. Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more. I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try. Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat. I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Lepak To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat > Gary > > This may be the conoe you are thinking about: > > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe > > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html> > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm> > > Mat> Yup, that's the one. Thanks. Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=371491714> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 10:04 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: main hatch dimensions

You can have both sliding and hinged hatch in one if you mount the pivots on dinghy mainsheet carriers on appropriate track attached to the cabin top. You just have to lift the hatch a little to clear the front lip before you slide it. The end of the hatch furthest from the pivot has nylon guides which once the hatch is lifted a little to allow travel, slide along the coaming so that the hatch cannot twist sideways and jam on the tracks. The hatch has gaskets which seal with the coaming. I have used this with a hinged cabin door opening inwards but the gasketing of the door is not too good and it leaks if it cops green water. The door's top edge has holes which engage with pegs on the lip of the hatch, which automatically lock it shut when the door is closed. I welded the whole thing out of 6 mm alloy. After saying all this, I must admit that the only time I open the hatch is to get large items of gear in or out. Otherwise we all just duck on the way in or out ! Regards, Richard Payne, Nekeyah. From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 2:02 am
Subject: Re: engines

Will try to look up the article in Practical Sailor. All reports in this locale are that Yanmar is good. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > Practical Sailor just did an interesting article on diesel engines. The point was made that Yanmars are kind of rough running, but they have a huge market share. If they were major trouble the big boat builders would drop them like a hot potato. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, > Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu. 3:1 reduction makes sense > given the higher rpm. Helpful comment: thanks. I have just found a > 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged. The > prop came at the right price. Just working on the math for > reduction. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand > new > > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy > with > > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described > Volvo to > > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about > Yanmar. > > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high > revving > > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a > slightly > > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is > much > > better in every way. > > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have > seen > > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > > Regards, Richard. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 638 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Tue 2/12/2002 639 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Wed 2/13/2002 656 Re: engines brentswain38 Sun 2/17/2002
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 9:00 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite.

Have never heard of detacouples, will check it out. Thanks, Richard. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 1:18 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat

Sorry. For my zip files go to http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/> click on "Boatbuilding," then on "Origami Steel Yacht Construction." For Baseline software go to www.basline.com <http://www.basline.com> Stephen -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Stephen, I can't get your links to work. Is the URL too long for the page causing the problem? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Ditmore, Stephen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:51 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations showing how an origami boat might be developed at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d b> 5ba560 < http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d > b5ba560&threadid=248> &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's not a big deal). A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/> < http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/> > Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck! Stephen Ditmore -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections. I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500. I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct. I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly. Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be. Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch. I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point. Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more. I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try. Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat. I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Lepak To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat > Gary > > This may be the conoe you are thinking about: > > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe > > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html> < http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html> > > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm> < http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm> > > > Mat> Yup, that's the one. Thanks. Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT < http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 > 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/* http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= <http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target=> mm/g22lp.tmpl> < http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai > l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=371491714> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=213858.1871318.3370210.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=213858.1871318.3370210.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=763352/rand=800107423> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 1:59 pm
Subject: design for catamaran

Hello everybody, I have really enjoyed the responses generated by my cat question.One measure of wisdom is knowing when, figuratively, to call a plumber! I think I need someone who can design the thing for me. For money and fame. Do any of you have an interest in doing it? Or can you recommend somebody? I can build it myself, but the design part is more than I have time to conquer. I understand the concepts, but the nitty is pretty gritty. And CAD gives me migraines. James Floyd From: "robert44654" <robert44654@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 7:26 pm
Subject: improvements???

I like your concept of origami construction. It is a real boon for the amatuer builder. Your hull underwater though is rather ugly,not that it matters that much, however why haven't you tried to make underwater slits vertical to fair up each half instead of a long horizontal slit underwater? you may have to make a few more welds but the underwater profile could approximate a rounder hull. It also may allow a lighter boat design, especially in alumimum. also, do you have any experience with i beleive the product is aluminite, a "welding compound" that must have a large percentage of zinc in it (specific gravity is over 6 ). I have seen it demonstated at Farm Science review. A hole in an aluminum can is repaired with a propane torch. Seems easy to use, even on light guage alumimum, and they say in their brochure that it can be used in boat fabrication. can your design be used to fabicate a boat of aluminum with 1/2" aluminum plate for the hull or is it to thick to work with? I am interestd in seeing in person a boat built to your design. Anyone who has one willing to show it? Also of those who have a boat of Brent's design how is the performance? How high can you point, does it heel a lot? boat speed (especially in light air)? Again Brent, we amatuer boat builders salute you for your efforts!

Replies Author Date 606 Re: improvements??? brentswain38 Wed 2/6/2002 608 Re: improvements??? robert anthony Thu 2/7/2002 609 metal suppliers robert anthony Thu 2/7/2002 612 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002 681 Re: metal suppliers rbyzitter2001 Wed 2/20/2002 682 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002 686 Re: metal suppliers jalborey Thu 2/21/2002 611 Re: improvements??? brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002 610 Re: improvements??? Gary H. Lucas Thu 2/7/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 11:44 pm
Subject: Re: improvements???

Vertical slits would be impossible to keep fair. I've seen it tried and the result was an abortion with hard ridges at each seam, which would greatly increase the drag of a boat if done underwater. You can use the method as long as you continue the chines right to the ends of the boat, avoid any twist in the plates , and give up the conic ends.The French do this at Meta and call it the "Strongall process" Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" <robert44654@y...> wrote: > I like your concept of origami construction. It is a real boon for > the amatuer builder. Your hull underwater though is rather ugly,not > that it matters that much, however why haven't you tried to make > underwater slits vertical to fair up each half instead of a long > horizontal slit underwater? you may have to make a few more welds > but the underwater profile could approximate a rounder hull. It also > may allow a lighter boat design, especially in alumimum. > > also, do you have any experience with i beleive the product is > aluminite, a "welding compound" that must have a large percentage of > zinc in it (specific gravity is over 6 ). I have seen it > demonstated at Farm Science review. A hole in an aluminum can is > repaired with a propane torch. Seems easy to use, even on light > guage alumimum, and they say in their brochure that it can be used > in boat fabrication. > > can your design be used to fabicate a boat of aluminum with 1/2" > aluminum plate for the hull or is it to thick to work with? > > I am interestd in seeing in person a boat built to your design. > Anyone who has one willing to show it? Also of those who have a > boat of Brent's design how is the performance? How high can you > point, does it heel a lot? boat speed (especially in light air)? > > Again Brent, we amatuer boat builders salute you for your efforts!

Replies Author Date 608 Re: improvements??? robert anthony Thu 2/7/2002 609 metal suppliers robert anthony Thu 2/7/2002 612 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002 681 Re: metal suppliers rbyzitter2001 Wed 2/20/2002 682 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002 686 Re: metal suppliers jalborey Thu 2/21/2002 611 Re: improvements??? brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 11:51 pm
Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions

Moon Raven's wheelhouse measures 10 inches off the cabintop. Your taller wheelhouse will give you a lot more room . Having 3 inches more slope to the aft end of the wheelhouse will also make your hatch a lot easier to get in and out of without the cupola . Moon Raven's hatch opens almost the full 180 degrees . You'll get used to almost anything ,over time. Putting a lifting or sliding hatch on top would be a mistake , destroying the basic simplicity and watertight integrity of a single door. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Greg, > > I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to > the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this > shows his hatch configuration. It doesn't sound exactly like what > you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the hatch > door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one piece, > there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this would > be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent Hatch, > of course. > > Alex > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, > Wa. > > and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the > > size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats. I am interested > in > > Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they > or > > a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and > any > > other info related to it. such as wether it opens fully or is > blocked > > by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit > > well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it > > comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook. If anyone > > else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that > > would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot > > house please let me know. You can post messages ant this site or > send > > to the address below. > > > > > > Greg > > WIJNANDA@H... From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 609 metal suppliers robert anthony Thu 2/7/2002 612 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002 681 Re: metal suppliers rbyzitter2001 Wed 2/20/2002 682 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002 686 Re: metal suppliers jalborey Thu 2/21/2002 611 Re: improvements??? brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002
From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 3:01 pm
Subject: metal suppliers

robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 612 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/7/2002 681 Re: metal suppliers rbyzitter2001 Wed 2/20/2002 682 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002 686 Re: metal suppliers jalborey Thu 2/21/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

Anthony, The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: robert anthony To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:38 pm
Subject: Re: improvements???

One of my 36 footers is being built in Nanaimo using 1/4 inch aluminium.No problem. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: metal suppliers

This has been a problem in the US, but no problem in Canada. The only place we have been able to find wheelabraded plate in the US so far is Farwest Steel in Eugene Oregon. All I can suggest is get on the phone and phone all the suppliers in your area. We have had to use 8by20 plates sometimes, but it's tricky getting the midships seam fair. In the UK Pickels in Wales is the only source that I'm aware of. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes. Doug Pollard ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? Anthony, The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: robert anthony To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 615 Re: improve-advantage of origami ravensoars2001 Fri 2/8/2002 616 Re: improvements??? brentswain38 Sat 2/9/2002 618 Re: improvements??? Jim Phillips Sun 2/10/2002
From: David Allen <davidallen@i...>
Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: improvements???

a major problem with using aluminite is that the aluminum must be above the melting point of the rod. for a soda can, that's not much of a problem. for 1/4" plate it's a major problem. iron doesn't conduct heat very fast, which is why you can forge one end of a rod at red heat while holding the other bare handed. aluminum though is an excellent conductor of heat. you would need to heat the entire plate to nearly the melting point of the rod. getting that much metal that hot can cause a lot of problems. da From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 11:53 pm
Subject: Re: improve-advantage of origami

I am building as a hobby. There are no pressing time lines and it is fun to experiment. Much of the joy comes from doing something with my kids and finding out what they like to learn. That said, when it comes to stuff like welding the seams of the steel hull; I opt for the the time proven fast freeze arc welding electrodes like 6010 (DC) and 6011 (AC) for positional welding. These proceedures keep all the ferrys, barges and tug boats together that we depend on. Innershield has become accepted in shipyards now. It is very fast and is effective but difficult to justify the cost of the equipment for building one boat. Industry uses wire feed for aluminium boats for good reason: it too is fast and effective. Speed can reduce distortion. Not such a drawback for the origami builder. Another advantage of origami is that as you weld longditudanally you create compound curves. I have measured the effect on my 36' hull and find it very pleasing. The challenge of welding transverse frames is the inevitable humps and hollows that form sooner or later. Anyone who has paddled a Coleman plastic canoe accross a lake will attest to the extra effort it takes to propell a vesssel with hollows in the hull. The drag is devastating when compared to a rigid well formed canoe body. It is still fun to experiment, albeit with the approach that it is more fun when you can find out what works and do more of it. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes. > Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > Anthony, > The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: robert anthony > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > > > brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 10:55 pm
Subject: Re: improvements???

To suggest that over 100 very successful boats which have been built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf , to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong . If none of us had been prepared to improvise, we'd still be living in caves . Those who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same time enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while citicizing those very efforts. The French have been using origami style techniques to commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late 70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be naive enough to do it. Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century out of date needlesly hangs a huge millstone around the necks of cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes. > Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > Anthony, > The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: robert anthony > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > > > brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 618 Re: improvements??? Jim Phillips Sun 2/10/2002
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 11:44 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

Hi Brent, Seems to me your a bit touchy about orgami construction. Had you bothered to take a close look at my e-mail you would have seen that it was in reply to using Aluminite to weld seams. As far as I am know this process is unproven and I stand by my statement that someone who can bear the cost of a failure should do it with the idea of making money by the sale of this product which would then be a proven product. As to orgami construction I am considering it for my next boat and that is why I am in this group. To my mind I have done nothing but send an e-mail offering sound and healthy advice, for which you have attack me personally. As to my being a cowardly parasite all I can say is, I am quite willing to send you my address privately so you can come see me or I'll meet you half way. If your feeling froggy Jump!!! Douglas Pollard ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? To suggest that over 100 very successful boats which have been built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf , to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong . If none of us had been prepared to improvise, we'd still be living in caves . Those who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same time enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while citicizing those very efforts. The French have been using origami style techniques to commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late 70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be naive enough to do it. Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century out of date needlesly hangs a huge millstone around the necks of cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes. > Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > Anthony, > The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: robert anthony > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > > > brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 619 Re: improvements??? robert anthony Sun 2/10/2002
From: Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:15 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

Yeah, Brent, way to go. These parasites shouldn't even be on our group, sucking on our positive vibes. Go away, Duggy, and criticise others. We don't people of your ilk. Cheers to the innovators (and King Brent!), Jim --- brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > To suggest that over 100 very successful boats > which have been > built , and have survived everything from > circumnavigations ,to the > northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on > everything from a > Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in > eight foot surf , > to collisions with everything from steel barges to > freighters ,is as > naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world > is flat and that > if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong > . > If none of us had been prepared to improvise, > we'd still be > living in caves . > Those who discourage improvisation and try to > discourage those of > us who seek a way to make life easier for others , > while at the same > time enjoying the benefits gained through > improvisation ,are > cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of > others , while > citicizing those very efforts. > The French have been using origami style > techniques to > commercially produce very successful metal yachts > since the late > 70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be naive > enough to do it. > Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which > are a century > out of date needlesly hangs a huge millstone around > the necks of > cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark > ages . > Brent > Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" > <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways > to put a boat > together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I > doubt that any of > us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you > going to manufacture > a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's > a mistake, maybe > even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can > do is save a few > dollars on a very large investment in money and > labor. I would not > put anything into or on a boat that someone else had > not proven. The > people in the small boat group are the ones to > experiment , they can > throw away their mistakes. > > > > Doug Pollard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > > > > Anthony, > > The alumimite is something like solder, it is > not a fusion weld > like regular welding. A weld harder than the base > metal is a source > of cracking under stress. If you price the material > I think you will > find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. > The ADVANTAGE of > a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds > are very strong > and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more > difficult than steel > welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum > structures are > best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to > use. When you are > welding out of position, vertical or overhead, > aluminum is EASIER > than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less > than steel it has > less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like > sex, there is NO > substitute for skill when doing some things! > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: robert anthony > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: > improvements??? > > > > > > > > > > brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > Thanks for the > response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to > construct your > design? (If you have to have the chines all the way > to the end of > the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) > > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I > pose the question > can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts > at about > 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of > skill to use ( as > aluminum welding does) however it would put > dissimmilar metals in > contact with each other. The weld is actually > stronger than the > aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a > small depression > on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint > you could fill the > valley in with epoxy offering protection to the > joint from the > corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! > Greetings! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

I am glad to see all the discussion. I think this is healthy. I would like to add my thoughts to the discussion. First, I have not welded a boat before and don't trust my welding abilities to trust my life to my welding yet. I probably would have someone help me build a metal boat that is an experienced welder. I have no stake in aluminite , but the product looks easy to use, and requires no investment in equipment as most people already have a propane torch. The "welding" material doesn't have to be heated that hot and seems at the very least as a product that could be used for repairs in remote areas. It also maybe useful to construct an aluminum dingy (this is not my endorsement for this use). Yes the material probablely would cost a lot more than aluminum welding rods, but you don't need to buy a MIG welder and it can be done in the open air. I appreciate the comment about the local stress this could put on the aliuminum plate. Could be a problem that I didn't consider. Again I commend Brent. Guys this guy is offering his advice for free . He in my opinion has the cutting edge of ideas in amatuer metal boat building. He has tried many other ideas. Most of us haven't. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:24 pm
Subject: improvements

List, Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against new welding methods as long as their proven. In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of molded plywood and varnished.. We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and mastics. He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would frown on building boats for the employees to play with] So they had us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the aluminum and there was delaminating. The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. I am told it was under consideration to be used in hulls for flying boats. Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. My preference is to go sailing. Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 621 Re: improvements iprokopiw Sun 2/10/2002 622 Re: improvements pvanderwaart Sun 2/10/2002 623 Re: improvements brentswain38 Sun 2/10/2002 632 Re: improvements robert anthony Tue 2/12/2002
From: "iprokopiw" <iprokopiw@r...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: improvements

Just thought I would add a quick note in support of Doug. The origami technique is innovative, but it was an adaption of proven techniques of welding, etc. To risk your life (and those of rescuers) on a welding or joining technique in critical ares of a boat without any knowledge of the subsequent physical properties of the joint is irresponsible. Igor Prokopiw --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > List, > Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. > I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against new welding methods as long as their proven. > In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. > Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of molded plywood and varnished.. > We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and mastics. > He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would frown on building boats for the employees to play with] So they had us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. > A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the aluminum and there was delaminating. > The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. > This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. I am told it was under consideration to be used in hulls for flying boats. > Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. > It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. > It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. > My preference is to go sailing. Doug Pollard > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:19 pm
Subject: Re: improvements

>We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. Wolf Trap 30's? A point about innovation. Although it is difficult to forsee every aspect of a major innovation, they don't all pose the same sort of risks. The origami method for boats doesn't require any unusual engineering of the structure as I understand it. Once it has been demonstrated that the construction process goes smoothly, there isn't much doubt about whether the boat will be ok. Strip building from aluminium is something else. I never thought of that. Peter From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:27 pm
Subject: Re: improvements

I repeat, over 100 of these boats have been buiult, and all have been well proven successes despite many torture tests . It's not anything new or experimental Most people would rather go cruising than spend years on grosly outdated building methods. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > List, > Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. > I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against new welding methods as long as their proven. > In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. > Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of molded plywood and varnished.. > We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and mastics. > He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would frown on building boats for the employees to play with] So they had us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. > A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the aluminum and there was delaminating. > The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. > This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. I am told it was under consideration to be used in hulls for flying boats. > Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. > It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. > It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. > My preference is to go sailing. Doug Pollard > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 632 Re: improvements robert anthony Tue 2/12/2002
From: "phillipdallen" <phillipdallen@h...>
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 12:10 am
Subject: Boats-of course

I don't mean to butt in, however, I've lost the thread (I think). Are you discussing the Origami design (concept) or the method of joining the various parts involved? I am considering building a boat and for that reason, am reading this and other forums. The Origami concept seems to be at the top of my list...at present. To me, it appears to be simple and strong. I will read and otherwise study the whole idea a lot more before I jump into it. I will never start without seeing an Origami boat (preferably under construction) first hand. This will have to wait 'till the viewing becomes practical...as I live in Arkansas. In the meantime...more study. Anyone wishing to help or just stick in their oar is invited to contact me via email. Thanks to all, Phillip Allen From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 9:48 am
Subject: A measure of moderation

As moderator I will jump in here, pull back the reins, and note that it appears that there may have been some confusion over the intent of recent messages, and now must attempt to iron out the kinks so as to douse the flames of misunderstanding. I think both Brent and Doug were saying very similar things (correct me if I'm wrong), that there is a time and place for experimentation, and 1000 miles from shore is not that place. I think Doug mentioned that testing a new, unproven method (alumimite brazing rods) on a low-cost, near-shore vessel such as a dinghy would be the right way to go, rather than investing megabucks on a potential failure. Ie, "innovate, but small-scale at first". Brent's boatbuilding technique is an innovation in itself (he's been branded a "Heretic" in more traditional steel boatbuilding circles), but now has its own tradition. It is interesting to ponder the idea that every tradition was once an innovation, isn't it? It is only a question of how many people within a group have adopted the innovation in order to turn it into a convention or tradition. Sociologists have all sorts of fun studying this stuff. So, to reiterate a little, I suggest that on the one hand, I don't think Doug meant that exprimentation is bad, just that keeping it reasonably small-scaled while testing would be prudent both for savings in costs and protection of life and limb. Perhaps this is where some confusion began. As a person interested in the Origami method of steel boatbuilding, he is evidently not afraid to try something most people would consider new and unusual. And on the other hand I don't see anywhere Brent was suggesting that Doug himself was a coward (which is what Doug thought, but was not the case from what I can tell). If you re-read the messages, you'll see that his mention of the word "coward" was a general reference to people who wait along the sidelines and don't contribute, then only adopt the innovation when they think it is safe. Of course, caution is a worthy human instinct that has its place the in annals of human survival over the millenia. I believe also that this instinct is well in place for Brent's boats, despite their unusual construction technique. You can rest assured that Brent's survival instincts were operative way offshore with two miles of water below his keel and not a hint of land in sight. Brent developed a new style of boatbuilding in steel, but was also drawing on traditional knowledge of steel's physical attributes and capabilities in order to inform his innovation. Lastly, I should ask all to exercise caution and courtesy in the writing of their posts and refrain from strong words (other-wise known among cowboys as "fightin' words") which can be miscontrued as to whom they were meant to be directed. To not do so jeopardizes the stability of the group's existence as a medium of peaceful and reasoned communication on the subject of these boats. Also, please read carefully what the other writer has said, and if in doubt as to the intent, simply e-mail them for clarification. More often than not, you'll find that things are not as they seem to be. That is, "don't believe everything you read is about you!" With the tendency for people sitting at a computer (sometimes with a time constraint hovering over them) to write off the top of their head their initial thoughts on a subject, then press "send", the internet probably offers the highest possibility for miscommunication over any other medium of communication in this age. Be careful what you say, lest it "blow back" upon you! Alex Christie (moderator) > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > > List, > > Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you > build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, > I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. > > I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against > new welding methods as long as their proven. > > In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We > built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple > of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. > > Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research > and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a > sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of > molded plywood and varnished.. > > We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of > thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy > was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology > was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and > mastics. > > He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were > not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would > frown on building boats for the employees to play with] So they had > us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. > > A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. > > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the > aluminum and there was delaminating. > > The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat > built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. > > This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I > felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very > happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. > I am told it was under consideration to be used in hulls for flying > boats. > > Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I > would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in > fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. > > It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be > backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. > A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. > > It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to > sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain > amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. > > My preference is to go > sailing. Doug > Pollard > >

Replies Author Date 626 Re: A measure of moderation Douglas Pollard Mon 2/11/2002
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] A measure of moderation

Alex Brent and the group, I have felt from the start that this misunderstanding was completely my fault. I realize that it is the task of the communicator to word his writing in such a way as to not be misunderstood. Reading back over the very fist entry I can see lots of room for misinterpretation. Brent I felt your reaction was way to stung but I also realize you must have to defend your ideas and methods all the time from cranks and unconstructive criticism by some who revel in tearing down another kids tree houses. Once more, I was referring to the use of Aluminite in assembling a large boat rather than just a small experiment.in boat building. I know almost nothing about the product but I assume it is not really welding but is more akin to soldering or brazing.If it can be proven to make a strong safe joint I will be the first to applaud. I would also like to say that in no way was I trying to put down on or find fault with the person who suggested it as a possibility. {In the fray I've forgotten who it was.} These are the kinds of things we should be talking about, an idea thrown in for others to discuss and build on. It's called brain storming folks and undue criticism can kill and keep these ideas off line. What a shame! We will all lose by that. For my part in this distraction, I am sorry folks. Doug Pollard ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:48 AM Subject: [origamiboats] A measure of moderation As moderator I will jump in here, pull back the reins, and note that it appears that there may have been some confusion over the intent of recent messages, and now must attempt to iron out the kinks so as to douse the flames of misunderstanding. I think both Brent and Doug were saying very similar things (correct me if I'm wrong), that there is a time and place for experimentation, and 1000 miles from shore is not that place. I think Doug mentioned that testing a new, unproven method (alumimite brazing rods) on a low-cost, near-shore vessel such as a dinghy would be the right way to go, rather than investing megabucks on a potential failure. Ie, "innovate, but small-scale at first". Brent's boatbuilding technique is an innovation in itself (he's been branded a "Heretic" in more traditional steel boatbuilding circles), but now has its own tradition. It is interesting to ponder the idea that every tradition was once an innovation, isn't it? It is only a question of how many people within a group have adopted the innovation in order to turn it into a convention or tradition. Sociologists have all sorts of fun studying this stuff. So, to reiterate a little, I suggest that on the one hand, I don't think Doug meant that exprimentation is bad, just that keeping it reasonably small-scaled while testing would be prudent both for savings in costs and protection of life and limb. Perhaps this is where some confusion began. As a person interested in the Origami method of steel boatbuilding, he is evidently not afraid to try something most people would consider new and unusual. And on the other hand I don't see anywhere Brent was suggesting that Doug himself was a coward (which is what Doug thought, but was not the case from what I can tell). If you re-read the messages, you'll see that his mention of the word "coward" was a general reference to people who wait along the sidelines and don't contribute, then only adopt the innovation when they think it is safe. Of course, caution is a worthy human instinct that has its place the in annals of human survival over the millenia. I believe also that this instinct is well in place for Brent's boats, despite their unusual construction technique. You can rest assured that Brent's survival instincts were operative way offshore with two miles of water below his keel and not a hint of land in sight. Brent developed a new style of boatbuilding in steel, but was also drawing on traditional knowledge of steel's physical attributes and capabilities in order to inform his innovation. Lastly, I should ask all to exercise caution and courtesy in the writing of their posts and refrain from strong words (other-wise known among cowboys as "fightin' words") which can be miscontrued as to whom they were meant to be directed. To not do so jeopardizes the stability of the group's existence as a medium of peaceful and reasoned communication on the subject of these boats. Also, please read carefully what the other writer has said, and if in doubt as to the intent, simply e-mail them for clarification. More often than not, you'll find that things are not as they seem to be. That is, "don't believe everything you read is about you!" With the tendency for people sitting at a computer (sometimes with a time constraint hovering over them) to write off the top of their head their initial thoughts on a subject, then press "send", the internet probably offers the highest possibility for miscommunication over any other medium of communication in this age. Be careful what you say, lest it "blow back" upon you! Alex Christie (moderator) > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > > List, > > Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you > build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, > I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. > > I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against > new welding methods as long as their proven. > > In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We > built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple > of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. > > Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research > and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a > sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of > molded plywood and varnished.. > > We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of > thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy > was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology > was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and > mastics. > > He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were > not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would > frown on building boats for the employees to play with] So they had > us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. > > A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. > > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the > aluminum and there was delaminating. > > The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat > built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. > > This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I > felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very > happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. > I am told it was under consideration to be used in hulls for flying > boats. > > Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I > would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in > fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. > > It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be > backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. > A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. > > It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to > sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain > amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. > > My preference is to go > sailing. Doug > Pollard > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 4:05 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???

Hi, Brent. Are you saying over 100 boats have been built with Aluminite welds? Stephen -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? To suggest that over 100 very successful boats which have been built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf , to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong . If none of us had been prepared to improvise, we'd still be living in caves . Those who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same time enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while citicizing those very efforts. The French have been using origami style techniques to commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late 70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be naive enough to do it. Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century out of date needlesly hangs a huge millstone around the necks of cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes. > Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > Anthony, > The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: robert anthony > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > > > > > brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=221000.1882886.3382503.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=965714/R=0/O=1/I=brandr-promo-flowersale-alerts-lrecm/*http://shoppi ng.yahoo.com/promotions/flowers/index.html> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=221000.1882886.3382503.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=965714/rand=693942736> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:11 am
Subject: Aluminit

Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! . Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 629 Re: Aluminit Gary H. Lucas Tue 2/12/2002 631 Re: Aluminit robert anthony Tue 2/12/2002 630 Re: Aluminit Douglas Pollard Tue 2/12/2002 634 Re: Aluminit Gary H. Lucas Tue 2/12/2002 635 Re: Aluminit Douglas Pollard Tue 2/12/2002 636 Re: Aluminit dr01allen Tue 2/12/2002 654 Re: Aluminit Douglas Pollard Sat 2/16/2002 658 Re: Aluminit Jim Phillips Sun 2/17/2002 660 sheer lines robert anthony Sun 2/17/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:47 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit

Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here. Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult. Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot warm. I used to repair broken aluminum light poles. My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding. I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it. THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on. The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour. Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster? I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding. You need to give it up. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! . Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 631 Re: Aluminit robert anthony Tue 2/12/2002
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:56 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit

AHHH! I see the light, well nothing beats a trial but a failure. Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here. Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult. Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot warm. I used to repair broken aluminum light poles. My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding. I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it. THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on. The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour. Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster? I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding. You need to give it up. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! . Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:12 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit

I don't think u are right about this one . I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees. The torch is heating th ebrazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate. "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here. Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult. Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot warm. I used to repair broken aluminum light poles. My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding. I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it. THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on. The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour. Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster? I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding. You need to give it up. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! . Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:18 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements

Did you make any prototypes or experimental models before you built/ designed your first origami boat? I got your book Brent, thanks for sending it, well worth the money, I'm still thinking what I would want in my ideal boat. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:49 am
Subject: A few more photos of Moon Raven

Hi folks, I've added 4 new photos of Moon Raven, a 36 footer, to the photos section. The boat had been moved to another location that made some nice shots possible, so I thought I'd take a few fresh ones for the group's interest. I think this boat was built pretty much as close to Brent's plans and book as you can get, so is an excellent example of the type. Alex From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit

Robert, If you have ever done any soldering or brazing you will find that nothing sticks until the base metal gets to EXACTLY the right temperature. Too hot is as bad as too cold. The temperature required falls right in a zone between the filler metal being a solid and a liquid. Touching molten metal to a surface that is colder instantly cools it and all you get is a round ball that rolls off. That in a nutshell is the secret to soldering or brazing using any material you can name. I work with electrical systems, most bad solder joints are caused by someone using too SMALL of a soldering iron. If you use a big enough iron the joint heats instantly and the solder flows right in, BEFORE the heat can get sucked away by the wire, which is what causes the melted insulation you often see. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: robert anthony To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit I don't think u are right about this one . I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees. The torch is heating th ebrazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate. "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here. Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult. Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot warm. I used to repair broken aluminum light poles. My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding. I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it. THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on. The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour. Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster? I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding. You need to give it up. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! . Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:51 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit

Robert, After reading Gary's post I think he's right. Seems to me we're both whipping a dead horse. Heating the whole boat is probably an exaggeration to make a point but you would have to heat a lot of metal !!. Sounds like Gary is a welder and one thing I've learned over the years is don't argue with the welder they usually know what their talking about. A welder puts up with being burned , breathing smoke and miserable heat in the summertime. A guy has to like what he's doing to do that and I believe people who like their jobs are always knowledgeable. If 600 degrees is the heat requirement for this soldering process it's awful close to the annealing temperature of aluminum A guy could wind up with a dead soft plating. I realize you were only questioning the amount of aluminum to be heated. I just thought I'd take this opportunity to dump my thinking on everyone. ----- Original Message ----- From: robert anthony To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit I don't think u are right about this one . I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees. The torch is heating th ebrazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate. "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here. Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult. Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot warm. I used to repair broken aluminum light poles. My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding. I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it. THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on. The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour. Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster? I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding. You need to give it up. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! . Doug Pollard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Aluminit

> Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. > Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. if you really want to get innovative, you could glue the joints together using a backer plate (glue on the backer plate only, not in the joint) at discreete points along the weld. I have some super glue that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low temps). then call in the welder. as the weld is made, the heat from the weld and the expansion of the metal will break the glue bond to the backer plates and they will fall off. no going back to remove anything. of course it's more expensive than simply clamping the pieces together, but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. <BG> this might actually be a viable process if you need to cut open then re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise.... da From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:39 pm
Subject: please trim posts

pressing <shift>-<cntrl>-<end> will highlight all text to the end of the message. pressing the <delete> key will then remove it. a couple of recent messages had 3 to 5 lines of comments on top of several pages of yahoo adendum. cleaning up after yourself will save download time and improve readability. da From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:08 pm
Subject: Re: engines

Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect way to go about this. I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very smooth and comfortable eengine. I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. Best regards.

Replies Author Date 639 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Wed 2/13/2002 656 Re: engines brentswain38 Sun 2/17/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:09 am
Subject: Re: engines

Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and serviceable. Cheers, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > way to go about this. > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. > Best regards. From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines

I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well. Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds. I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load on the engine?? After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for the engine. If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics. I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather. I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine. Doug Pollard Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. ----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and serviceable. Cheers, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > way to go about this. > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. > Best regards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 645 Re: engines brentswain38 Fri 2/15/2002 689 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Fri 2/22/2002 694 Re: engines brentswain38 Fri 2/22/2002 697 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Sat 2/23/2002 701 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Thu 2/28/2002 702 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 2/28/2002 740 Re: engines and transmissions ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002 725 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Sun 3/10/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:49 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines

Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included). While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke. They did not seem to be big on Yanmar. Stephen Ditmore National Network Technologies 301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor Rutherford, NJ 07070 201-549-4133 -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Pollard [mailto:dougpol1@o...] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well. Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds. I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load on the engine?? After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for the engine. If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics. I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather. I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine. Doug Pollard Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. ----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and serviceable. Cheers, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > way to go about this. > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. > Best regards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Rick Byzitter" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:05 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines

Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a Isuzu. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ditmore, Stephen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included). While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke. They did not seem to be big on Yanmar. Stephen Ditmore National Network Technologies 301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor Rutherford, NJ 07070 201-549-4133 -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Pollard [mailto:dougpol1@o...] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well. Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds. I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load on the engine?? After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for the engine. If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics. I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather. I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine. Doug Pollard Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. ----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and serviceable. Cheers, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > way to go about this. > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. > Best regards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:21 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines

Ahhh.... the truth comes out! Thanks for that piece of the puzzle, Rick. Stephen -----Original Message----- From: Rick Byzitter [mailto:rbyzitter@f...] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a Isuzu. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ditmore, Stephen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:49 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included). While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke. They did not seem to be big on Yanmar. Stephen Ditmore National Network Technologies 301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor Rutherford, NJ 07070 201-549-4133 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 644 Re: engines and exhausts ravensoars2001 Fri 2/15/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:12 am
Subject: Re: engines and exhausts

Thanks for the added info on Isuzu. Locally, they seem to have a price advantage right now. I am appreciating more and more that appart from the logic of the skeg cooler, other advantages of a metal boat include the ease with which you can install and adapt things like prop tubes, tanks, through hulls, engine mounts etc. So if you go for a different engine or whatever it is not such a big deal. The reason that mild steel out-lives stainless in exhausts is in the relationship between oxygen and that thin skin of chromic oxide that makes stainless--stainless. Remove oxygen and it corodes in deep pockets. The reverse is true of carbon steels: these materials last longer in the absence of oxygen. The only good reason to use stainless in the manifold would be to resist heat induced distortion in lighter materials. Something stainless does better than carbon steels. That said--the rest of the system would be better suited to mild steel or a wet exhaust perhaps? Adding on to steel seems so straight forward --- In origamiboats@y..., "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote: > Ahhh.... the truth comes out! Thanks for that piece of the puzzle, Rick. > > Stephen > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Byzitter [mailto:rbyzitter@f...] > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:05 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a Isuzu. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ditmore, Stephen > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:49 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included). > While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty > clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke. They did not seem to > be > big on Yanmar. > > Stephen Ditmore > National Network Technologies > 301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor > Rutherford, NJ 07070 > 201-549-4133 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:26 am
Subject: Re: engines

I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the Charlottes and back. The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it. The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve. When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into the pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a pipe plug. One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat before installing an engine next time. My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point where you inject water in . My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very easy to build . A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years ago" Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well. > Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. > I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds. > I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load on the engine?? > After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. > I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. > I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for the engine. > If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics. > I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. > We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather. > I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine. > Doug Pollard > > Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of > engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that > impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I > wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own > manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I > have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine > stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly > straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota > engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and > serviceable. Cheers, rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years > with > > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines > at > > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a > lot > > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > > way to go about this. > > > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of > a > > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two > of > > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. > 2.4 > > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am > allways > > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project > boat. > > Best regards. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 689 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Fri 2/22/2002 694 Re: engines brentswain38 Fri 2/22/2002 697 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Sat 2/23/2002 701 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Thu 2/28/2002 702 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 2/28/2002 740 Re: engines and transmissions ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002 725 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Sun 3/10/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:33 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines

Brent, I saw you motoring past today from my roof-top here on the island. With your dry exhaust, is it very loud to be on board for hours on end with the engine running? I could not hear anything from my vantage point, and I usually can hear outboards from there. Does your exhaust exit the transom below the waterline to dampen the sound? Alex

Replies Author Date 648 Re: engines brentswain38 Fri 2/15/2002
From: "Rick Byzitter" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines

The 2AB is and excellent choice as it is but a 2 cylinder version of the C-240. What this gives you is a reciprocating assembly, i.e.: crankshaft, bearings & pistons, etc. designed for literally twice as much HP. This equates to extreme reliability & long life. As for dry v.s. wet exhaust. After spending the last 18 years repairing, maintaining & overhauling marine diesels in both commercial & pleasure boats, I would have to say the dry exhaust/keel cooled method is the only way to go. Even a perfectly designed wet exhaust still has it's inherent problems. Primarily much more maintenance, back pressure, corrosion damage to the valve train, salt water infiltration in the engine, raw water pump maintenance, "plugging" of the sea strainer, one more through hull fitting, failure of the anti siphon resulting in an engine full of sea water and possible sinking of the vessel. I am not trying to instill paranoia, but these are all things I have seen. Also on a lighter note, I was wandering, does anyone out there have a material list of the steel required for a 36 footer? The company I work for brings a substantial amount of steel for our manufacturing division & I'm curious to know how much better I buy than "Joe the homebuilder". This may be of benefit to some of us "yet to build" our first or second hull. Cheers. ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 7:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the Charlottes and back. The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it. The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve. When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into the pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a pipe plug. One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat before installing an engine next time. My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point where you inject water in . My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very easy to build . A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years ago" Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well. > Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. > I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds. > I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load on the engine?? > After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. > I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. > I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for the engine. > If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics. > I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. > We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather. > I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine. > Doug Pollard > > Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of > engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that > impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I > wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own > manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I > have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine > stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly > straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota > engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and > serviceable. Cheers, rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years > with > > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines > at > > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a > lot > > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > > way to go about this. > > > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of > a > > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two > of > > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. > 2.4 > > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am > allways > > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project > boat. > > Best regards. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 649 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Fri 2/15/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:36 pm
Subject: Re: engines

My dry exhaust exits the transom about 8 inches above the waterline. Where it exits I have a stainless elbow to take it below the waterline where a rubber elbow points it aft, about 6 inches below the waterline. I have a rubber flap on the end cut out of the sidewall of a tire ,to stop any following seas from reaching the engine . There is a 1/4 inch hole in the first stainless elbow to act as a siphon break.I eliminated the inside muffler a year ago and it didn't make any difference to the sound of the exhaust .As long as the exhaust is about 6 inches below the waterline it kills all outside sound. Diesel engineers say it would have to go down at least 3 ft before back pressure would become a problem. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Brent, > > I saw you motoring past today from my roof-top here on the island. With > your dry exhaust, is it very loud to be on board for hours on end with the > engine running? I could not hear anything from my vantage point, and I > usually can hear outboards from there. Does your exhaust exit the transom > below the waterline to dampen the sound? > > Alex From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:13 pm
Subject: Re: engines

Brent, Rick, good info on the dry exhaust and the oil change modifications. I have been stuggling with the pros and cons of a wet vs dry system. I too notice that it is past the water injection that pitting starts to bore through the stainless. One boat in the yard here was set up with a stainless wet system and it rotted out in a little less than 2 years. The motor had also hydrauiliced due to a failure of the rubber flap at the end. The wet mild steel system from before had one lasted for over 8 years. That is only one example to compare. Are you insulating the exhaust pipe beyond your manifold, putting a water jacket on it, or a bit of both? the quote from the diesel mechanic says a lot. Thanks, rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Rick Byzitter" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > The 2AB is and excellent choice as it is but a 2 cylinder version of the C-240. > What this gives you is a reciprocating assembly, i.e.: crankshaft, bearings & pistons, etc. designed for literally twice as much HP. This equates to extreme reliability & long life. > > As for dry v.s. wet exhaust. After spending the last 18 years repairing, maintaining & overhauling marine diesels in both commercial & pleasure boats, I would have to say the dry exhaust/keel cooled method is the only way to go. Even a perfectly designed wet exhaust still has it's inherent problems. Primarily much more maintenance, back pressure, corrosion damage to the valve train, salt water infiltration in the engine, raw water pump maintenance, "plugging" of the sea strainer, one more through hull fitting, failure of the anti siphon resulting in an engine full of sea water and possible sinking of the vessel. I am not trying to instill paranoia, but these are all things I have seen. > > Also on a lighter note, I was wandering, does anyone out there have a material list of the steel required for a 36 footer? The company I work for brings a substantial amount of steel for our manufacturing division & I'm curious to know how much better I buy than "Joe the homebuilder". > This may be of benefit to some of us "yet to build" our first or second hull. > > Cheers. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 7:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the > Charlottes and back. > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it. > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve. > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into the > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a > pipe plug. > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat > before installing an engine next time. > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point > where you inject water in . > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very > easy to build . > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years > ago" > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > > I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent > choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. > Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine > really holds up well. > > Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. > > I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and > pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this > engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the > engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at > higher speeds. > > I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so > I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive > refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load > on the engine?? > > After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust > systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up > better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin > holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from > the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. > > I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to > replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting > thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand > pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded > anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. > > I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries > and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for > the engine. > > If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and > there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. > Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially > in the tropics. > > I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump > for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This > pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to > the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 > hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. > > We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical > requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity > except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when > at the dock in hot weather. > > I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all > this but this is mine. > > Doug Pollard > > > > Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand > pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five > years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ravensoars2001 > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines > > > > > > Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number > of > > engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that > > impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I > > wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my > own > > manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I > > have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the > marine > > stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things > fairly > > straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising > Kubota > > engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and > > serviceable. Cheers, rt > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > > > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great > deal. > > > > > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of > experence. > > > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years > > with > > > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > > > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize > engines > > at > > > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for > "our > > > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are > a > > lot > > > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a > incorrect > > > way to go about this. > > > > > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit > of > > a > > > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. > I > > > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but > than.....oh > > > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge > two > > of > > > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. > > > 2.4 > > > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > > > > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen- set > > > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > > > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > > > > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am > > allways > > > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project > > boat. > > > Best regards. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:12 pm
Subject: engines

Can one attach some digital pics to posting, is this even possible? Or do I have to open a file in the "Files" section? Cheers. From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:32 pm
Subject: Outboards

This discussion on diesels lead me to seriously consider an outboard. Does anyone out there have an outboard and if so, what are the pros and cons. Thanks

Replies Author Date 655 Re: Outboards brentswain38 Sun 2/17/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines

> Can one attach some digital pics to posting, is this even possible? > Or do I have to open a file in the "Files" section? > Cheers. After a virus attack some months back, I removed the attachments feature for group security until the storm passed, but perhaps I'll put it back on for a trial period, and see how it goes, ok? If you want the photo more accessable for future visitors, then post it in the Photos section, which has thumbnail capacity. One can also post to Files, but there is no thumbnail function there. If you want the group to have a look, just post a note to everyone with the name of the album and the name of the photo contained within. Everyone, keep your antiviral software up to date, and don't open an attachment if it doesn't seem right! Alex Christie (moderator) From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:25 pm
Subject: Izuzu Engines

    I don't know that this is true, but I thought I'd pass it along.

    I was down at the boat yard today working on my mast. Saw a fellow painting what looked to be a brand new yellow engine. Walked over to see and sure enough it was a new Izuzu. I stood around like a tourist for a while while he ignored me. I could stand it no longer. I asked looks brand new why are you painting it.

    He looked a little disgusted at me, but answered the factory paint 'is no good so I am putting two more coats on before I put it in my boat.

    I said bye and walked away feeling like I should have known better than to ask such a dumb question.

    Thinking back I remembered that my Izuzu was fairly rusty when I took it out and rebuilt it. Maybe the paint is not the best in the world since these engine are built as industrial engines.

    For any one buying one to put in their boat I would at least ask around about this. Most likely it's not a bad idea to add some paint on any new engine???

                                                    Doug Pollard


From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:40 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit

Say da all you want but that's how ships are built. The fitters come along fit the plates and tack them in place. the welder follows later and welds the seams.

    Say da ! to Newport News ship building and Electric Boat works.

   Using aluminite is defiantly Da !  though.

                                                    Doug

----- Original Message -----

From: dr01allen

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:35 AM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit

>     Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. >     Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. if you really want to get innovative, you could glue the joints together using a backer plate (glue on the backer plate only, not in the joint) at discreete points along the weld. I have some super glue that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low temps). then call in the welder. as the weld is made, the heat from the weld and the expansion of the metal will break the glue bond to the backer plates and they will fall off. no going back to remove anything. of course it's more expensive than simply clamping the pieces together, but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. <BG> this might actually be a viable process if you need to cut open then re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise.... da

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Replies Author Date 658 Re: Aluminit Jim Phillips Sun 2/17/2002 660 sheer lines robert anthony Sun 2/17/2002 669 Re: sheer lines brentswain38 Mon 2/18/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 12:55 am
Subject: Re: Outboards

In my first boat I sailed out to New Zealand using an out board for an auxillary. When I left Juan de Fuca it quit. In Frisco I tried and gave up trying to get it fixed , so windjammed to Nuku Hiva. There I met an outboard mechanic who got it running albeit rather roughly. The top main bearing was shot. I replaced the top bearing in Tahiti and got it running again ( it had quit again on the way there, salt in the ignition)By the time I got to Rarotonga it had quit again. I spent several days getting the salt out of the ignition there, cleared out for New Zealand then went back to the boat to leave. It wouldn't start. About a week out of Raro, it fell calm and I cleaned out the ignition and got it running beautifully. By the time I arrived in New Zealand it wouldn't start , salt in the ignition again altho I had kept it belowdecks the whole time . Outboards have improverd a lot since then, but they still consist of tiny parts and screws made of various electrolycally incompatible metals and are extremely hard to work on. No matter where you mount them they have a tendency to kick out of the water in a swell. They are extremely vulnerable to hitting floating objects.They require you to carry large amounts of very explosive fueland consume a lot more fuel per mile than a diesel.Theey rely on electricity to keep them running, not to compatible with seawater especially when they have to operate in an extremely exposed position. I installed a diesel in New Zealand and the problems with diesel engines since ,have been a fraction of what they had been with an outboard. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > This discussion on diesels lead me to seriously consider an > outboard. Does anyone out there have an outboard and if so, what are > the pros and cons. > > Thanks From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:14 am
Subject: Re: engines

Several friends and clients bought diesels from Detroit diesel Allisson, 30 HP perkins with transmissions rated at maximum 20 hp as a package deal put together by the dealer, and sold as a complete package . The trannys crapped out rather quickly,sometimes in less than 60 hours . They recieved only excuses and no compensation whatever from Detroit Diesel Allison who incidentally supplied the engines for the BC Fastcat Ferries . The ferries have had more than their share of problems. I had warned the government about problems with Detroit Diesel Allison before they built the cats . Make sure the transmission you put on the engine is rated for the full continuous horsepower of the engine, even if they are sold as a package deal, and check the suppliers reputation for warrantee sevice on what they sell. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. > > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our > application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect > way to go about this. > > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh > well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of > these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. > > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very > smooth and comfortable eengine. > > I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. > Best regards. From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:29 am
Subject: Engines

Hi. Does anyone have any information on the Daihatsu CLMD25 engine? I have bought one that was salvaged from the lifeboat of a wrecked freighter and cannot find any info on the web including the Daihatsu Diesel web page. Best regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 677 Re: Engines Ditmore, Stephen Wed 2/20/2002
From: Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:44 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit

You're hilarious, Doug. You give me so many laughs in amongst the education. I think he said da, because it appears that those are his intitals. (dr01allen). Daahhhh! Fair winds and as little time in boatyards as possible for everyone! Cheers, Jim. --- Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > Say da all you want but that's how ships are built. > The fitters come along fit the plates and tack them > in place. the welder follows later and welds the > seams. > Say da ! to Newport News ship building and > Electric Boat works. > > Using aluminite is defiantly Da ! though. > > > Doug > ----- Original Message ----- > From: dr01allen > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:35 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit > > > > > Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum > boat together with > aluminite, maybe every foot or so. > > Now you can call in a really good welder and > believe me these > guys can be worth the money. He can use his > water-cooled wire feeder > and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast > you can't believe it. > > if you really want to get innovative, you could > glue the joints > together using a backer plate (glue on the backer > plate only, not in > the joint) at discreete points along the weld. I > have some super glue > that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low > temps). > > then call in the welder. as the weld is made, the > heat from the weld > and the expansion of the metal will break the glue > bond to the backer > plates and they will fall off. no going back to > remove anything. of > course it's more expensive than simply clamping > the pieces together, > but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. <BG> > > this might actually be a viable process if you > need to cut open then > re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise.... > > > da > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 660 sheer lines robert anthony Sun 2/17/2002 669 Re: sheer lines brentswain38 Mon 2/18/2002
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit

Holy Cow! Jim,

   I'm as red as a nun buoy on the wrong side of the channel.

Da I beg your pardon. That was the last in a list of the thousand dumbest things I ever did or said   Daaahh!



                                                            Doug

----- Original Message -----

From: Jim Phillips

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 5:44 AM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit

You're hilarious, Doug. You give me so many laughs in amongst the education. I think he said da, because it appears that those are his intitals. (dr01allen). Daahhhh! Fair winds and as little time in boatyards as possible for everyone! Cheers, Jim. --- Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@oasisonline.com> wrote: > Say da all you want but that's how ships are built. > The fitters come along fit the plates and tack them > in place. the welder follows later and welds the > seams. >     Say da ! to Newport News ship building and > Electric Boat works.                                >                               >    Using aluminite is defiantly Da ! though.       >             >                                                    > Doug >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: dr01allen >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:35 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit > > > >   >     Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum > boat together with >   aluminite, maybe every foot or so. >   >     Now you can call in a really good welder and > believe me these >   guys can be worth the money. He can use his > water-cooled wire feeder >   and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast > you can't believe it. > >   if you really want to get innovative, you could > glue the joints >   together using a backer plate (glue on the backer > plate only, not in >   the joint) at discreete points along the weld. I > have some super glue >   that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low > temps). > >   then call in the welder. as the weld is made, the > heat from the weld >   and the expansion of the metal will break the glue > bond to the backer >   plates and they will fall off. no going back to > remove anything. of >   course it's more expensive than simply clamping > the pieces together, >   but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. <BG> > >   this might actually be a viable process if you > need to cut open then >   re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise.... > > >   da > > > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >               ADVERTISEMENT >              >        >        > >   To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:39 pm
Subject: sheer lines

I pose Brent a question. In your book, how did you know the sheer line is part of an ellipse?
Robert Anthony

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games

Replies Author Date 669 Re: sheer lines brentswain38 Mon 2/18/2002
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...>
Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:47 pm
Subject: bilge insulation

If y'all don't mind answering a question for a tire-kicker... When you insulate the interior, do you foam the entire bilge? If so, doesn't it eventually get pretty messy? If not, doesn't it collect a puddle? Peter

Replies Author Date 668 Re: bilge insulation brentswain38 Mon 2/18/2002
From: "seadog122543" <seadog122543@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:16 am
Subject: "NUTHIN WONG "

I am very interested in the design and building of the "Nuthin Wong " Do you know where I can find more information? John Bridges jgbridges43@h...

Replies Author Date 663 Re: "NUTHIN WONG " jim_cl Mon 2/18/2002 749 Re: "NUTHIN WONG " brentswain38 Tue 3/26/2002
From: "jim_cl" <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:43 am
Subject: Re: "NUTHIN WONG "

Why not speak to the owner & skipper. I met him last year in St Martin. His email is one of the following (my memory is slipping and I didn't write it down at the time!) chinesejunk@h... chinesejunk@y... I think he should be up around Canada again by now... Cheers, and as little time as possible in boatyards, Jim. --- In origamiboats@y..., "seadog122543" <seadog122543@y...> wrote: > I am very interested in the design and building of the "Nuthin > Wong " Do you know where I can find more information? John Bridges > jgbridges43@h... From: "jim_cl" <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 3:04 am
Subject: origami cats

G'day all! This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land bound but eager to build another boat and get away again. It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat. Get away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer and give us all an update on your origami progress. Please. My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. The ideas are based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef. I liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc) So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. Origami or not, that is the question, my friends. Some brief notes: 1. 50' LOA 2. 25' BOA 3. 5' individual hull beam. 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in port will be on the central deck. 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V- ed, knife-shaped bow. 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'. 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the waters were usually clear. To the shock of other yachties and our own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I digress...) I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing deck. Comments welcome. 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder. 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed up by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well to be covered with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Have to be able to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:). The rig will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the wing deck. 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing). Comments, please. 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down. 20. 6' headroom in each hull. 21. No gas for cooking. Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it parafin depending on where you are from). These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas. Let me know what you think of this crazy down-under sailor. No comments about the tedious topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE. Tell me something new. On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor, I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me) is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts and having many adventures in his travels about the globe. Some of you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and fitout at: http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim.

Replies Author Date 667 Re: origami cats brentswain38 Mon 2/18/2002 672 Re: origami cats Doug Barnard Tue 2/19/2002 673 Doug's Qs about origami cats jim_cl Tue 2/19/2002 674 Re: Doug's Qs about origami cats Doug Barnard Tue 2/19/2002 678 Re: origami cats Ditmore, Stephen Wed 2/20/2002 680 Re: origami cats Jim Phillips Wed 2/20/2002 683 Re: origami cats brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002 679 Re: origami cats Ditmore, Stephen Wed 2/20/2002
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:23 pm
Subject: Going south

Hi Y'all,

    I will be unsubscribing from the list for a few weeks. I am going down to Florida to help a friend get his boat ready for a few years in the Caribbean. I wish I could go with them but this is their adventure. I'm sure I'll save my pennies and fly down a few times and cruise a week or two after they leave.

    Just in case any of you think you can do without me here, I"LL BE BACK, so rest easy.

                                                        Doug Pollard
From: "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:24 pm
Subject:

unsubscribe
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: origami cats

I started out using morse cable on the trimtab. It works OK but morse cable is prone to filling up with salt and corrosion eventually. It also sometimes has a limited travel. I've switched to solid rod shaft or sch 40 pipe from the transom 2 ft to one side of the rudder,to under the sidedeck alongside the steering seat. An arm hangs down off hte shaft inside with a linkage to connect it to a jogstick in front of the steering seat. On the outside , the shaft passes through a stuffing box in the transom and has an arm pointing upward with a linkage to a tiller on the trimtab. The best attatchment point seems to be about an inch behind the axis of the rudder to give a slight negative feedback to prevent oversteering .This system should be good for at least 500 years before I have to think about replacing it . On the inside I use an autohelm 800, the smallest one they make . As it only has to power the balanced trimtab, it's all that is needed , there svery little load on it.It's been there for 10 years and thousands of miles with no problems. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "jim_cl" <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > G'day all! > > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land > bound but eager to build another boat and get away again. > > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many > (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat. Get > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer > and give us all an update on your origami progress. Please. > > My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we > get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more > crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. > > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. The ideas are > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef. I > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc) > > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. Origami or > not, that is the question, my friends. > > Some brief notes: > > 1. 50' LOA > 2. 25' BOA > 3. 5' individual hull beam. > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can > be flush with top of each hull. > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in > port will be on the central deck. > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless > technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V- > ed, knife-shaped bow. > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the > waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective > stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably > 2'. > 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external > centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the > waters were usually clear. To the shock of other yachties and our > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut > tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I digress...) I > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want > the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal > draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing > deck. Comments welcome. > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and > provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each > rudder. > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. > Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed up by small > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the > outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in > each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well to be covered > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open > when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Have to be able > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be > unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the > normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining > wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:). The rig > will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than > having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to > have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the > wing deck. > 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a > track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast > (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order > to make it free standing). Comments, please. > 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and > hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but > provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small > fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around > perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port > with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the > sides up, little windage, lee boards down. > 20. 6' headroom in each hull. > 21. No gas for cooking. Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it > parafin depending on where you are from). > > These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas. Let me know what you think > of this crazy down-under sailor. No comments about the tedious > topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE. Tell me something new. > > On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor, > I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me) > is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts > and having many adventures in his travels about the globe. Some of > you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and > fitout at: > > http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html > > Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible > in a boatyard. > > Jim. From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: bilge insulation

DO NOT foam the entire bilge. People who have , have ended up scraping it out when it becomes a soggy mass. Insulating the underside of the floor is easier and keeps the insulation out of the bilge while giving the same insulation value and drastically reducing the amount of condensation. Insulation under the floorboards is removable.Most of my boats have a large built in watertank in the bilge who's top is just below the floor. I recomend hinging the entire floor with a long piano hinge down one side so you can throw a piece of styrofoam down and cloe the lid ( floor ) on top of it. If the foam gets grubby, simply lift the lid and replace it. Foam to the floorboards , but not beyond .Leave the area under the engine and the centre of the space under the wheelhouse foam free. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > If y'all don't mind answering a question for a tire-kicker... > > When you insulate the interior, do you foam the entire bilge? If so, > doesn't it eventually get pretty messy? If not, doesn't it collect a > puddle? > > Peter From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: sheer lines

I read in an article on aesthetics years ago that the traditional fife sheer was part of an elipse . Since then I've noticed that the better a sheerline looks, the closer it is to being part of an elipse. I've also noticed that the further it departs from being part of an elipse , the uglier it gets. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > I pose Brent a question. In your book, how did you know the sheer line is part of an ellipse? > Robert Anthony > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:12 pm
Subject: Steel required.

Hello again. I have a basic materials required list here for rough costing. I was wandering if you folks could add anything substantial that may be missing. 2x 3/16"x8x36' plate 1x 10 gauge 6x20' sheet 5x 10 gauge 4x8' sheet 4x 10 gauge 5x10' sheet 2x 1/4"x4x12'plate 1x 1/2"x18"x10' plate 300'x1x1x1/4" angle 360'x 3/8x1" flat bar If this is a fairly accurate materials list I can go about getting some costing on this first big step. Does any one know if there are some study plans available? I have Brent's book "How To Build A Better Steel Boat", this has been very informative but I would like to get into this a little deeper. Cheers.

Replies Author Date 671 Re: Steel required. Larry Doyle Tue 2/19/2002
From: "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:39 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel required.

I got the following from Brent:

The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin,
wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows

Hull-
2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate
1-4x8 ft x 3/16th
Decks cabin etc
10- 4x8 x 1/8th
1-6x12x1/8th
   Keel(s)
1-5x12x1/4
1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl
Twin Keels leading edges
2-3ft6"x2"shaft
Single
5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness )
Twin keel supports
4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle
Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths
Deck stiffners
10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar
16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe
12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe
4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe
Ballast 3500 lbs lead .

For the 36 it's as follows

   2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate
   1-4x8x3/16th plate
   3-5x10x1/8th"
   5 -4x8x1/8th" pl
   1 -6x20x1/8th"
   1-8x12x1/4 inch plate
   10- 1" x1"x20ft angle
    14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft
   1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate
   leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6
inces longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid
shaft leading edges of the twin keels .
   Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe
   16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe
12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe
4500 lbs of lead ballast
   When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of
the clips .
                                     Brent Swain

From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:09 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats

> -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless > technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? Why aluminum? You spoke of banging into things with a steel yacht (great story, btw!), so why change? > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the > waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective > stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface > area, construction time and cost (less welding). Won't this be somewhat funky? I'm no expert on cats, but isn't there some fairly intense curving that would need to be done? Trying to bend that tubing would be a nightmare! It seems to me that making two really thin and long Swain origami hulls would be a much better way to go. Also, how are you planning on attaching the two hulls to the deck? That's the part that really threw me. I've heard of plenty of epoxy or fiberglass cat construction plans, but no steel ones. That joint is going to need some engineering, IMHO. Not dissin' you here, as someone who is designing an origami/Van de Stadt-type trawler, I'm all ears as to new construction techniques! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T steel trawler

Replies Author Date 673 Doug's Qs about origami cats jim_cl Tue 2/19/2002 674 Re: Doug's Qs about origami cats Doug Barnard Tue 2/19/2002
From: "jim_cl" <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:18 am
Subject: Doug's Qs about origami cats

Doug, Thanks for your comments. I'm changing from steel to aluminium because I like the strength of steel but dislike the continuous chipping and painting. Alumin gets me the strength (or very close to) but not the rust. The cat I'm going to build will have two very long narrow hulls. The central 25' (maybe only 20') can be straight underwater, with no curves necessary - pointy bit at the front, 25' straight bit in the middle and fuller stern. Shouldn't look funky as this will mostly be underwater. No bending of the tubing is necessary. As for the decks, we have to consider: a) the decks on each individual hull, and b) the central wing deck. The deck of each hull will be alum welded to the hulls, just like a normal steel boat. No leaks, totally watertight with no glued or bolted joints. The cross beams will likewise be made of off-the-shelf alum spars that will be welded into each hull. Each cross-beam will totally cross each of the two hulls in order to achieve the structural integrity required. The wooden planks to allow percolation through the wing deck will be screwed or bolted to a framework of aluminium beams welded to the cross-beams. Two long thin origami hulls may be the way to go. Maybe a hybrid of origami stern and bow and off-the-shelf tubing in the middle? How are you designing your boat? When do you expect to start construction? What are your plans after the Iron Lotus hits the water? Cheers, mate, Jim.

Replies Author Date 674 Re: Doug's Qs about origami cats Doug Barnard Tue 2/19/2002
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:54 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Doug's Qs about origami cats

> -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > How are you designing your boat? When do you expect to start > construction? What are your plans after the Iron Lotus hits the > water? I started with traditional plans from Charles Wittholz, then took the Table of Offsets and plotted them into Rhino 3D to get my hull shape. I think that I'll be able to take the developed plates from Rhino and have the steel CNC'd directly. The rest of the design was done in discreet 3ds max software, to get the true feel of the boat. I'll send you a couple of pics in a separate email; I've got full flythrus of above and below decks, if you're interested. I tried real hard to stick to a canonical origami design, but it seems that I couldn't get the right shape for a trawler. By using more of a Van de Stadt strip method, it increases the welds but gives me the right shape. Also, this being a somewhat larger hull, building it in a cradle makes more sense. I'm planning on starting this summer <sound of fingers crossing> if all goes as planned. The wife and I figured that this was a perfect excuse to try and get rid of outstanding debt before starting in. Also, I'm finishing up a 20' I/O go-fast modified deep-V, which should be hitting the water in a few weeks. As to the aftermath, probably get the boat wet here in So. Cal., clear out the house for rental, then truck the boat to Houston, Texas to put it in at the edge of the ICW for some glorious cruising and unabashed telling of tall tales! ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T steel trawler From: "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:26 am
Subject: ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION

I'm glad to see all the discussion going on about this unique boatbuilding process. It says alot about anything when there is this much discussion directed at it, but I think there are two simple points thet everybody is touching on and is very well aware of but are being overlooked. And here they are in order. We all agree that steel is the strongest boatbuilding medium, that we have at the moment realistically, and we all agree that welding is the strongest way of joining a boat built of steel and if a Swain boat is nothing more than these two all agreed upon facts what is the cause of so much turmoil. Two analogies to something we all can relate to. First some of us who own boats but don't cruise extensively also happen to own cars made of steel although, I'm sure some of you have fancy plastic models, which travel at a lot higher rate of speed than any sailboat with other cars, trucks, suvs, and what not traveling at high rates of speed right towards us with a hull/body that is thinner than any part of any steel boat, has far less framing which is also of a smaller guage and how often do we stop to critize the methods employed in building these high velocity death rides. Second the thought process behind a Swain boat, where the strength of the steel, agreed on by all of us as the strongest boatbuilding medium, and the fact that it creates a continous compound curve which is reinforced using longitudinal stringers, can again be compared to this everyday item. Think of a car hood,roof or door for that matter a fairly flat piece of steel that can be bent easily. Now think of what a Swain boat is built like, not the door or roof but those compound curves found along the trunk to quarter panel curve or the curve where the roof starts to curve to bend to meet the doort frame when is the last time anyone dented this part of their car. In closing I pulled together a 36'bilge keeled hull with Brent and my partner in 11 days and can't understand why there are still boats being built by any other method especially considering the designer/architect sails his boat across the Pacific yearly. more than most designers whose office job only allows daysailing and therefore have a considerable lack of the realities of what an offshore cruising vessel needs. Furthermore I cannot think that Brent could ever sleep in his bunk soundly knowing that families are relying on him and his boat to get them through the next storm. Fair winds to everyone. Greg

Replies Author Date 676 Re: ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION batsondbelfrey Wed 2/20/2002
From: "batsondbelfrey" <Robert.Biegler@s...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:54 am
Subject: Re: ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION

--- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > Furthermore I cannot think that > Brent could ever sleep in his bunk soundly knowing that families > are relying on him and his boat to get them through the next storm. I think you meant to add "unless he knew for certain, from his own experience, that his building methods works" :-) At least, that's the impression I get from the rest of your posting. Regards Robert Biegler From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:39 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Engines

Thought these engines might be of interest to someone (esp. East Coast or European types).

http://www.sabb.no/engelsk/lifeboats.htm

Stephen Ditmore
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:57 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats

Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult catamaran with the original (Laser-like) sleeve rig. The manufacturer subsequently changed to the current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would have to buy now if I wanted to race one design. My understanding is that the multihull community in general has concluded that rotating wing masts are superior to sleeves because:

1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls too flat for the air to remain attached.

2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is aerodynamically superior to a triangular one. (Note: the bigger the roach the more compression on the battens, pushing them into the mast. Having a Harken Batcar or similar at the mast end of each batten keeps them from jamming.)

3. While free standing rigs have merit on some monohulls, multis have such a wide shroud base that you might as well use it.

Stephen Ditmore

-----Original Message-----
From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats

G'day all! This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land bound but eager to build another boat and get away again. It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat. Get away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer and give us all an update on your origami progress. Please. My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. The ideas are based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef. I liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc) So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. Origami or not, that is the question, my friends. Some brief notes: 1. 50' LOA 2. 25' BOA 3. 5' individual hull beam. 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in port will be on the central deck. 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V- ed, knife-shaped bow. 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'. 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the waters were usually clear. To the shock of other yachties and our own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I digress...) I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing deck. Comments welcome. 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder. 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed up by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well to be covered with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Have to be able to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:).   The rig will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the wing deck. 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing). Comments, please. 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down. 20. 6' headroom in each hull. 21. No gas for cooking. Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it parafin depending on where you are from). These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas. Let me know what you think of this crazy down-under sailor. No comments about the tedious topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE. Tell me something new. On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor, I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me) is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts and having many adventures in his travels about the globe. Some of you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and fitout at: http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html   Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim.

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Replies Author Date 680 Re: origami cats Jim Phillips Wed 2/20/2002 683 Re: origami cats brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:04 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats

Note also: You can stay a "biplane" rig by staying to the inside of each mast, forming an "X", and putting a compression strut between them at the height of the hounds (where the shrouds attach to the mast, i.e. the top of the "X").

Stephen Ditmore

-----Original Message-----
From: Ditmore, Stephen [mailto:sditmore@nntllc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 8:58 AM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats

Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult catamaran with the original (Laser-like) sleeve rig. The manufacturer subsequently changed to the current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would have to buy now if I wanted to race one design. My understanding is that the multihull community in general has concluded that rotating wing masts are superior to sleeves because:

1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls too flat for the air to remain attached.

2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is aerodynamically superior to a triangular one. (Note: the bigger the roach the more compression on the battens, pushing them into the mast. Having a Harken Batcar or similar at the mast end of each batten keeps them from jamming.)

3. While free standing rigs have merit on some monohulls, multis have such a wide shroud base that you might as well use it.

Stephen Ditmore

-----Original Message-----
From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats

G'day all! This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land bound but eager to build another boat and get away again. It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat. Get away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer and give us all an update on your origami progress. Please. My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. The ideas are based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef. I liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc) So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. Origami or not, that is the question, my friends. Some brief notes: 1. 50' LOA 2. 25' BOA 3. 5' individual hull beam. 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in port will be on the central deck. 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V- ed, knife-shaped bow. 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'. 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the waters were usually clear. To the shock of other yachties and our own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I digress...) I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing deck. Comments welcome. 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder. 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed up by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well to be covered with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Have to be able to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:).   The rig will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the wing deck. 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing). Comments, please. 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down. 20. 6' headroom in each hull. 21. No gas for cooking. Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it parafin depending on where you are from). These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas. Let me know what you think of this crazy down-under sailor. No comments about the tedious topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE. Tell me something new. On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor, I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me) is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts and having many adventures in his travels about the globe. Some of you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and fitout at: http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html   Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim.
From: Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:41 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats

Thanks for your comments, Stephen. I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved, fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...? The battens would tend to rule out the sleeve, one would think. Anyone seen anything like this? Jim. --- "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote: > Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult > catamaran with the original > (Laser-like) sleeve rig. The manufacturer > subsequently changed to the > current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would > have to buy now if I > wanted to race one design. My understanding is that > the multihull community > in general has concluded that rotating wing masts > are superior to sleeves > because: > > 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls > too flat for the air to > remain attached. > > 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is > aerodynamically superior to a > triangular one. (Note: the bigger the roach the > more compression on the > battens, pushing them into the mast. Having a > Harken Batcar or similar at > the mast end of each batten keeps them from > jamming.) > > 3. While free standing rigs have merit on some > monohulls, multis have such a > wide shroud base that you might as well use it. > > Stephen Ditmore > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats > > > > G'day all! > > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is > currently land > bound but eager to build another boat and get away > again. > > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there > aren't so many > (any?) from people who are actually building an > origami boat. Get > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down > at your computer > and give us all an update on your origami progress. > Please. > > My next boat is currently in the initial planning > stages while we > get some money together, pay off the house and > produce some more > crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. > > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to > you all for > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. > The ideas are > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a > kid on my > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation > before I had to > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on > my own 30' steel > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the > Barrier Reef. I > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, > but there were > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. > wing deck > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward > ability etc) > > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. > Origami or > not, that is the question, my friends. > > Some brief notes: > > 1. 50' LOA > 2. 25' BOA > 3. 5' individual hull beam. > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will > be decked with > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during > rough seas. > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > Wing deck can > be flush with top of each hull. > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > sufficient for 2 > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. > Socialising in > port will be on the central deck. > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded > using frameless > technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in > afterwards? > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > flotation. Fairly V- > ed, knife-shaped bow. > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > below the > waterline in order to just buy a standard, > off-the-shelf, 5' diam > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the > respective > stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will > minimise wet surface > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more > than 3', preferably > 2'. > 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one > or two?) which > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an > external > centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically > just charge on > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the > Caribbean without a > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel > keel and the > waters were usually clear. To the shock of other > yachties and our > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern > anchor and just sail > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow > to a coconut > tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I > digress...) I > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger > board, but want > the performance of the lee board and the convenience > of minimal > draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, > it will be ok as > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, > under the wing > deck. Comments welcome. > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. > Transom can actually > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase > waterline length and > provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out > an inch or so > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim > tab on each > rudder. > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering > thru use of a > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move > trim tabs. > Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed > up by small > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse > control. > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We > detest using the > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the > Caribbean and we > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 > litres for the > outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an > outboard well in > each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well > to be covered > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is > raised and open > when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. > Have to be able > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided > whether to go for > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both > cases. Will be > unstayed because the technology is already here to > have a carbon > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, > and similarly > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. > Without all the > normal rigging there is less potential for failure > (this is from a > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' > mast when a > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast > into a retaining > wall - various broken bones but that's another > story...:). The rig > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 683 Re: origami cats brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002
From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:37 pm
Subject: Re: metal suppliers

Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 682 Re: metal suppliers brentswain38 Thu 2/21/2002 686 Re: metal suppliers jalborey Thu 2/21/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:00 am
Subject: Re: metal suppliers

There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797 Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. > > I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came > out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > > > > robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding > suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc > coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 686 Re: metal suppliers jalborey Thu 2/21/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:10 am
Subject: Re: origami cats

I met a friend who was sailing one of my 40 footers at Fanning Island . I asked him what he thought of full batten sails and he said " Battens suck , they tend to eat the sail with chafe and break at the least opportune moments ". Another friend there sailing a bristol cannel cutter was trying full length battens for the first time with a sail made in New Zealand from a different sailmaker . I asked him what he thought and he said basically the same thing . The 40 footer went ot New Zealand , then back to BC and the 30 footer went thru the western Pacific, then back to Juan de Fuca. By the time they got back , neither had any use for battens and both said they would never have battens in a mainsail again. I've been told that 80% of sail repairs are around batten pockets. That was pretty well my experience many decades ago when I used to have battens in my nmailsail. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Stephen. > > I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved, > fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...? The > battens would tend to rule out the sleeve, one would > think. Anyone seen anything like this? > > Jim. > > --- "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote: > > Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult > > catamaran with the original > > (Laser-like) sleeve rig. The manufacturer > > subsequently changed to the > > current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would > > have to buy now if I > > wanted to race one design. My understanding is that > > the multihull community > > in general has concluded that rotating wing masts > > are superior to sleeves > > because: > > > > 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls > > too flat for the air to > > remain attached. > > > > 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is > > aerodynamically superior to a > > triangular one. (Note: the bigger the roach the > > more compression on the > > battens, pushing them into the mast. Having a > > Harken Batcar or similar at > > the mast end of each batten keeps them from > > jamming.) > > > > 3. While free standing rigs have merit on some > > monohulls, multis have such a > > wide shroud base that you might as well use it. > > > > Stephen Ditmore > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats > > > > > > > > G'day all! > > > > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is > > currently land > > bound but eager to build another boat and get away > > again. > > > > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there > > aren't so many > > (any?) from people who are actually building an > > origami boat. Get > > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down > > at your computer > > and give us all an update on your origami progress. > > Please. > > > > My next boat is currently in the initial planning > > stages while we > > get some money together, pay off the house and > > produce some more > > crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. > > > > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to > > you all for > > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. > > The ideas are > > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a > > kid on my > > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation > > before I had to > > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on > > my own 30' steel > > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the > > Barrier Reef. I > > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, > > but there were > > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. > > wing deck > > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward > > ability etc) > > > > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. > > Origami or > > not, that is the question, my friends. > > > > Some brief notes: > > > > 1. 50' LOA > > 2. 25' BOA > > 3. 5' individual hull beam. > > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will > > be decked with > > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during > > rough seas. > > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > > Wing deck can > > be flush with top of each hull. > > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > > sufficient for 2 > > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. > > Socialising in > > port will be on the central deck. > > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded > > using frameless > > technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in > > afterwards? > > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > > flotation. Fairly V- > > ed, knife-shaped bow. > > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > > below the > > waterline in order to just buy a standard, > > off-the-shelf, 5' diam > > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the > > respective > > stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will > > minimise wet surface > > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more > > than 3', preferably > > 2'. > > 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one > > or two?) which > > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an > > external > > centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically > > just charge on > > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the > > Caribbean without a > > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel > > keel and the > > waters were usually clear. To the shock of other > > yachties and our > > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern > > anchor and just sail > > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow > > to a coconut > > tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I > > digress...) I > > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger > > board, but want > > the performance of the lee board and the convenience > > of minimal > > draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, > > it will be ok as > > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, > > under the wing > > deck. Comments welcome. > > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. > > Transom can actually > > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase > > waterline length and > > provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out > > an inch or so > > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim > > tab on each > > rudder. > > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering > > thru use of a > > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move > > trim tabs. > > Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed > > up by small > > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse > > control. > > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We > > detest using the > > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the > > Caribbean and we > > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 > > litres for the > > outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an > > outboard well in > > each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well > > to be covered > > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is > > raised and open > > when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. > > Have to be able > > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > > 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided > > whether to go for > > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both > > cases. Will be > > unstayed because the technology is already here to > > have a carbon > > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, > > and similarly > > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. > > Without all the > > normal rigging there is less potential for failure > > (this is from a > > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' > > mast when a > > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast > > into a retaining > > wall - various broken bones but that's another > > story...:). The rig > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:41 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

Some years ago I bought some steel plate for building outriggers for a truck crane. After a full day of welding I was looking at one of the four beams I had fabricated and thought I saw a tiny crack. I picked up a hammer and tapped the plate fairly hard. A crack ran up nearly the entire 8 foot length, and a piece about 3 inches square fell out! Wouldn't it have been nice to have that holding a load 80 feet in the air! They replaced all the steel, but none of my labor.

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: brentswain38

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:00 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at
http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797
                                      Brent Swain

--- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:
> Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required.
>
> I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came
> out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers
>
>
>
>
> --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding
> suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc
> coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area?
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Replies Author Date 687 Re: metal suppliers Paul Liebenberg Fri 2/22/2002 695 Re: metal suppliers ravensoars2001 Sat 2/23/2002 688 Re: metal suppliers Rick Byzitter Fri 2/22/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:19 pm
Subject: full-batten mainsails

With all due respect, I disagree with Brent on this point. I have no doubt that Brent's cruising experience exceeds mine, but there are full batten advocates, such as Steve Dashew, who could match Brent mile for nautical mile. I agree that partial battens stress the sail at the forward ends of the pockets.  That's the superiority of full battens, which keep the mainsail from flogging excessively when luffing and thus improve its life span and long-term shape holding. They also help it stack nicely in lazy jacks.

Stephen Ditmore

-----Original Message-----
From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:10 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cats

I met a friend who was sailing one of my 40 footers at Fanning Island . I asked him what he thought of full batten sails and he said " Battens suck , they tend to eat the sail with chafe and break at the least opportune moments ". Another friend there sailing a bristol cannel cutter was trying full length battens for the first time with a sail made in New Zealand from a different sailmaker . I asked him what he thought and he said basically the same thing . The 40 footer went ot New Zealand , then back to BC and the 30 footer went thru the western Pacific, then back to Juan de Fuca. By the time they got back , neither had any use for battens and both said they would never have battens in a mainsail again. I've been told that 80% of sail repairs are around batten pockets. That was pretty well my experience many decades ago when I used to have battens in my nmailsail.                                             Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Stephen. > > I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved, > fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...? The > battens would tend to rule out the sleeve, one would > think. Anyone seen anything like this? > > Jim. > > --- "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote: > > Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult > > catamaran with the original > > (Laser-like) sleeve rig. The manufacturer > > subsequently changed to the > > current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would > > have to buy now if I > > wanted to race one design. My understanding is that > > the multihull community > > in general has concluded that rotating wing masts > > are superior to sleeves > > because: > > > > 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls > > too flat for the air to > > remain attached. > > > > 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is > > aerodynamically superior to a > > triangular one. (Note: the bigger the roach the > > more compression on the > > battens, pushing them into the mast. Having a > > Harken Batcar or similar at > > the mast end of each batten keeps them from > > jamming.) > > > > 3. While free standing rigs have merit on some > > monohulls, multis have such a > > wide shroud base that you might as well use it. > > > > Stephen Ditmore > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats > > > > > > > > G'day all! > > > > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is > > currently land > > bound but eager to build another boat and get away > > again. > > > > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there > > aren't so many > > (any?) from people who are actually building an > > origami boat. Get > > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down > > at your computer > > and give us all an update on your origami progress. > > Please. > > > > My next boat is currently in the initial planning > > stages while we > > get some money together, pay off the house and > > produce some more > > crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. > > > > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to > > you all for > > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. > > The ideas are > > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a > > kid on my > > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation > > before I had to > > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on > > my own 30' steel > > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the > > Barrier Reef. I > > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, > > but there were > > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. > > wing deck > > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward > > ability etc) > > > > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. > > Origami or > > not, that is the question, my friends. > > > > Some brief notes: > > > > 1. 50' LOA > > 2. 25' BOA > > 3. 5' individual hull beam. > > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will > > be decked with > > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during > > rough seas. > > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > > Wing deck can > > be flush with top of each hull. > > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > > sufficient for 2 > > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. > > Socialising in > > port will be on the central deck. > > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded > > using frameless > > technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in > > afterwards? > > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > > flotation. Fairly V- > > ed, knife-shaped bow. > > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > > below the > > waterline in order to just buy a standard, > > off-the-shelf, 5' diam > > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the > > respective > > stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will > > minimise wet surface > > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more > > than 3', preferably > > 2'. > > 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one > > or two?) which > > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an > > external > > centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically > > just charge on > > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the > > Caribbean without a > > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel > > keel and the > > waters were usually clear. To the shock of other > > yachties and our > > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern > > anchor and just sail > > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow > > to a coconut > > tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I > > digress...) I > > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger > > board, but want > > the performance of the lee board and the convenience > > of minimal > > draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, > > it will be ok as > > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, > > under the wing > > deck. Comments welcome. > > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. > > Transom can actually > > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase > > waterline length and > > provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out > > an inch or so > > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim > > tab on each > > rudder. > > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering > > thru use of a > > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move > > trim tabs. > > Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed > > up by small > > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse > > control. > > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We > > detest using the > > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the > > Caribbean and we > > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 > > litres for the > > outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an > > outboard well in > > each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well > > to be covered > > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is > > raised and open > > when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. > > Have to be able > > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > > 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided > > whether to go for > > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both > > cases. Will be > > unstayed because the technology is already here to > > have a carbon > > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, > > and similarly > > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. > > Without all the > > normal rigging there is less potential for failure > > (this is from a > > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' > > mast when a > > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast > > into a retaining > > wall - various broken bones but that's another > > story...:).   The rig > > > === message truncated === > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com

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From: "jalborey" <jalborey@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:39 pm
Subject: Re: metal suppliers

More information at the "Faulty Aluminum Plate" thread in the Metal Boats Society forum (http://www.metalboatsociety.com) > There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at > http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797 > Brent Swain From: "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...>
Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:36 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It would be nice to have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different geographic areas.                            Paul L

----- Original Message -----

From: rbyzitter2001

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:37 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Replies Author Date 695 Re: metal suppliers ravensoars2001 Sat 2/23/2002
From: "Rick Byzitter" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

I'm in the Vancouver B.C. area, so those were Canadian $s. The supplier was Dominion steel, I buy a lot of "trailer" worth of steel a year so my pricing may be better than "Joe the homeowner's" .

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul Liebenberg

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:36 PM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It would be nice to have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different geographic areas.                            Paul L

----- Original Message -----

From: rbyzitter2001

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:37 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers

Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: engines

Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be interested in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given engine RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my sister is married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. Cheers. --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the > Charlottes and back. > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it. > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve. > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into the > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a > pipe plug. > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat > before installing an engine next time. > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point > where you inject water in . > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very > easy to build . > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years > ago" > Brent Swain > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 694 Re: engines brentswain38 Fri 2/22/2002 697 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Sat 2/23/2002 701 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Thu 2/28/2002 702 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 2/28/2002 740 Re: engines and transmissions ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002 725 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Sun 3/10/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:38 pm
Subject: self steering equipment

Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning self-steering equipment?

The search I did yielded some interesting info.

http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering

Stephen

Replies Author Date 691 Re: self steering equipment Rick Byzitter Fri 2/22/2002 692 Re: self steering equipment Gary H. Lucas Fri 2/22/2002 693 Re: self steering equipment Alex & Kim Christie Fri 2/22/2002 706 Re: self steering equipment pvanderwaart Sat 3/2/2002 708 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Sat 3/2/2002 709 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 710 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 712 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Wed 3/6/2002 714 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Wed 3/6/2002
From: "Rick Byzitter" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:52 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

This may be of intere.

Cheers

http://www.capehorn.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Ditmore, Stephen

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 10:38 AM

Subject: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning self-steering equipment?

The search I did yielded some interesting info.

http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering

Stephen

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:27 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

The best book I have found on the subject is Self-Steering for Sailboats by Gerard Dijkstra published by Sail Books, Inc. in 1979. A little dated but excellent information about how and why they work.

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: Ditmore, Stephen

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:38 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning self-steering equipment?

The search I did yielded some interesting info.

http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering

Stephen

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:05 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; are there self-steering systems which don't?

Brent gives instructions in his book on building your own self-steering from stainless rod and other materials, and I've seen his system on several of his designs. His system uses a trim-tab on the rudder, so there is very low stress to the machine itself. I recall him saying that he also hooked up his autohelm 800 to the lever on the trim tab, so that the autopilot has very little work to do, extending the battery life and the working life of the autopilot itself. Seems to make good sense to me, and I like the fact that if you built it yourself, then you can repair it yourself, anywhere, anytime.

Alex Christie.

Replies Author Date 706 Re: self steering equipment pvanderwaart Sat 3/2/2002 708 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Sat 3/2/2002 709 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 710 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 712 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Wed 3/6/2002 714 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Wed 3/6/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:52 pm
Subject: Re: engines

I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when the dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a hurth 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through the hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in the dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it will do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth 100. A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a tiny bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest that will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio > and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be interested > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given engine > RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my sister is > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > Cheers. > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. > Excellent > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to > the > > Charlottes and back. > > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts > and > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it. > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and > valve. > > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for > a > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into > the > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four > legs > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement > made > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow > welded > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with > a > > pipe plug. > > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's > impossible > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple > on > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top > of > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can > pour > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around > at > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat > > before installing an engine next time. > > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless > wet > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point > > where you inject water in . > > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much > from > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the > success > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is > very > > easy to build . > > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet > at > > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years > > ago" > > Brent Swain > > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 697 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Sat 2/23/2002 701 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Thu 2/28/2002 702 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 2/28/2002 740 Re: engines and transmissions ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002 725 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Sun 3/10/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:58 am
Subject: Re: metal suppliers

Steel suppliers: I have used Dominion Steel and AJ Forsyth in Vancouver BC. Both suppliers use the same service to have plate wheel-abraded and primed with inorganic zinc. You must specify the paint when you order. All the materials for a Swain 36' were available. The 10 ga plate came out of wheel-abrading flat and fair. I am told that this is the best price on steel for 15 years. Used metal is available from Usenco in Surrey BC. rt -- In origamiboats@y..., "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...> wrote: > Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It would be nice to have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different geographic areas. Paul L > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rbyzitter2001 > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:37 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers > > > Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. > > I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came > out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > > > > robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > > I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding > suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc > coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. From: peter thompson <peter@b...>
Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:07 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

There are some more useful links at:

http://www.boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/links/search.cgi?query=self+steering

cheers,

peter

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
peter thompson                                        peter@boatbuilding.com
the BoatBuilding.Community                         http://boatbuilding.com/
"when the boat reaches midstream, it is too late to mend the leaks."
Chinese proverb

From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:22 am
Subject: Re: engines

Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth transmisions. Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic had to replace his discs after 1500 hrs. I have an opotunity to pick up a used Borg Warner and rebuild it. I like this idea since it provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc. I then have the option to buy extra parts that appear to wear more for spares. I am going to try out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine compartment. Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking a stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when the > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a hurth > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through the > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in the > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it will > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth 100. > A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a tiny > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. > When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest that > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. > I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio > > and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be interested > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given > engine > > RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my sister is > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > Cheers. > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. > > Excellent > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to > > the > > > Charlottes and back. > > > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the > oil > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts > > and > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on > it. > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and > > valve. > > > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done > for > > a > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into > > the > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four > > legs > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement > > made > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow > > welded > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with > > a > > > pipe plug. > > > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's > > impossible > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe > nipple > > on > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top > > of > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can > > pour > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out > the > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling > around > > at > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to > catch > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and > I've > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless > > wet > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point > > > where you inject water in . > > > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much > > from > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the > > success > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is > > very > > > easy to build . > > > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet > > at > > > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years > > > ago" > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 701 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Thu 2/28/2002 702 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 2/28/2002 740 Re: engines and transmissions ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:17 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment

Two excellent wind-vane books: " Wind-Vane Self Steering, theory, principles and practice" by Bill Belcher. Published by CAPTAIN TEACH PRESS, Auckland New Zealand. 1997 . ISBN 1-887197-00-9 and " Self-Steering for Sailing Craft " by John S. Letcher, Jr. Published by INTERNATIONAL MARINE PUBLISHING COMPANY, CAMDEN, MAINE. Both books contain an excellent balance of theory and practical orientation and are all you'll need if you wish to design and construct a rig. I ended up using a paddle on the Sayes Rig principle, coupled to a horizontal axis vane and it has proven robust and accurate. There is nothing more fascinating than sitting aft and watching one of these things work for you - it is almost supernatural! Regards, Richard Payne. From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:19 pm
Subject: Re: Swain hull analysis -- how stiff is this hull

In vivo test: heavy west coast rains here caused some softening of the ground where I am building a 36' origami hull. We decided it advisable to level the hull thwartships. My son and I were jacking up the hull and adjusting the stbd sheerlegs when he noticed that the hull was supported on only 3 points. I decided to take comparitive measurements at 3 stations. As far as I can tell, the torsional rigidity of the shell without bulkheads or any other framing is not measurable with a tape that goes down to 1/16th". By comparison, when I think about some of the flexing I've seen on some boats at sea and in yards--this builds confidence. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Hello All, > > I think Jeff has brought up some valid points on the issue of heavier > displacement vessels versus light displacement. His points are in keeping > with a larger ongoing debate in cruising circles everywhere and should > provide an excellent touchstone for those who do not find that > medium-diplacement Swain hulls fit their ideal. It sounds like Jeff is very > happy and confident with his choice of vessel (what is the design name and > who is the author of the design, Jeff? I am intrigued), and I am sure it > will serve him well. I think it clearly demonstrates that there is lots of > room for personal choices to be made in this very subjective arena. > > Further to this, I do believe there are many light displacement cruisers > worth looking at which combine speed, comfort and safety to the best of > their ability. This kind of boat is making itself known > in the world, but often in forms not available to the man or woman with > shallow pockets. Again, Dudley Dix's work might offer something economical > to build that really works, I don't completely know. Amor Marine > http://members.tripod.com/fredjamor/ > has created a 39' 12,000 lb disp. cruiser that has been designed to have > positive bouyancy and a liveable interior in > the event of holing, It is reported to be able to attain 13 knots under > sail. I have been on the boat myself, and was very impressed with it, enough > to be tempted to build one! > > Is the Swain hull considered to be a medium-displacement hull, or is > it a heavy displacement hull? Most would associate heavy displacement with > the Steel Roberts Spray hulls, whereas the Swain hull would be considered > more of a medium-displacement, don't you think? With its fin keel (or keels > in the case of the bilge keeler) and skeg mounted rudder, the hull cannot be > put in the same category of a Tahiti Ketch, or a Spray, by any stretch of > the imagination. I would say that it is a moderate displament hull. > > At this point, theoretical analysis of the Swain hull is elusive because the > only way to do so is by looking at the digital photos (with their parallax > errors) or actually seeing one in person. Ideally one should have a set of > lines for the average Swain hull to provide more serious analysis of its > potential performance compared to other boats, but these boats are not built > to lines per se, only patterns (one of the reasons they are fast to build). > Of course, being humans, even if we had a set of lines to look at, we could > still disagree on how those lines may translate into reality! The best > analysis we have now is through the actual experiences of the people that > own them, subjective as that may > be. It is good enough for many potential builders of this boat type, and > many for many others of other boat types. > > I think we've established the fact that these hulls are not > light displacement by any stretch of the imagination, but neither are they > extremely heavy. I do believe that for a steel boat, these boats function > very well given some of the constraints imposed by the technique with which > they are built. Judging by the numbers built, and their continued popularity > on this coast, most owners, in return for the gift of undertaking the > blue-water life, have willingly accepted any concessions to speed that the > building technique imposes. I have not heard of anyone finding that the > hulls rolled excessively. It may be telling that even after long cruises, > the owners hang onto their boats for a > long time. When a boat gives me grief, or appears to present a liability in > terms of my continued existence, I get rid of it! > > On the issue of heavier plating vs frames: There is no area on the hull > of Brent's boats that has large areas of unsupported plate, as there are > many closely spaced longitudinal members (fore and aft) made of angle > iron spaced about 1 foot (owners please correct me the measurements if > need), or so apart. These stringers run the full length of the boat in most > cases, though it is said to be unneccessary in the extreme ends of the > vessel where the tighter conic shape and stressed-skin provides all the > stiffness desired. Many owners run the stringers up there anyway, which is > their choice. > > The hulls are self-fairing as they are built, by the way, and easier than > you'd think to achieve symmetry. Brent would know more about explaining this > than myself, and I'll leave it to him. > > Perhaps "frameless" is a misnomer for this type, as it gives a false > impression that the plate is bare and unsupported on the inside, which it is > not. The evenly spaced stringers plus the slightly thicker skin should > fulfill equivalent stiffening that transverse frames would, and would not > allow a tear in the hull to "work" beyond itself, and I believe this has > been proven by hulls which have seen extreme service. Maybe we should start > calling them "longitudinally framed steel boats" to avoid confusion! > > Cheers, > > Alex Christie From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:47 pm
Subject: Bartering

I have noticed that we do touch upon such topics as cost. Has anyone thought about or have "we" ever bartered via all the contacts we make through this group? Thoughts come to mind such as, Maybe I can purchase steel at a better rate than......or, I have a bunch of marine diesels lying about. Or I don't want to weld up a hull, but I'd like to barter one for...... Oh well just a thought. Cheers From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 12:55 am
Subject: Re: engines

The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical transmission. The problem in the past has been it being overrated by manufactures. That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150 or a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler would aid transmission life. The hurth does not have a forced lube system but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and cools through heat transfer. The B&W is also a very good hydraulic transmission. Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable. I have sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. Cheers. --- In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth > transmisions. Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic had > to replace his discs after 1500 hrs. I have an opotunity to pick up > a used Borg Warner and rebuild it. I like this idea since it > provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot > less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc. I then have the option to buy > extra parts that appear to wear more for spares. I am going to try > out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine > compartment. Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking a > stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange. rt > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when > the > > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main > > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a > hurth > > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through > the > > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in > the > > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the > > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it > will > > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth > 100. > > A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or > > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a > tiny > > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. > > When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change > > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > > I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest > that > > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. > > I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > > Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, > ratio > > > and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be > interested > > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given > > engine > > > RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my sister > is > > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > > Cheers. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> > wrote: > > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. > > > Excellent > > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips > to > > > the > > > > Charlottes and back. > > > > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the > > oil > > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the > mounts > > > and > > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on > > it. > > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and > > > valve. > > > > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done > > for > > > a > > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch > into > > > the > > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by > four > > > legs > > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement > > > made > > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow > > > welded > > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged > with > > > a > > > > pipe plug. > > > > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's > > > impossible > > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of > the > > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe > > nipple > > > on > > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the > top > > > of > > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I > can > > > pour > > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out > > the > > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a > full > > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling > > around > > > at > > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the > > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to > > catch > > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the > bat > > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and > > I've > > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that > stainless > > > wet > > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the > point > > > > where you inject water in . > > > > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much > > > from > > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the > > > success > > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold > is > > > very > > > > easy to build . > > > > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the > internet > > > at > > > > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel > > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business > years > > > > ago" > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Replies Author Date 702 Re: engines ravensoars2001 Thu 2/28/2002 740 Re: engines and transmissions ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:30 am
Subject: Re: engines

Thank you, this helps build a broader picture of how to approach auxilliary power in terms of individual components. Are you going to start building in steel? What size, what design? Do you have any materials set aside yet. I would recommend starting with stuff like lead as soon as posible. I am always on the look out for stainless pipe, pipe for sheerlegs, plate for engine beds, stainless plate for mast tabernacle etc. Had i started earlier i would have had the ballast poured and sealed in by now. As it is i am still doing the rounds of the tire shops looking for wheel wheights etc. Anyone have a line on free spent uranium? Dumpsters around metal shops have vast potential for all sorts of useful pieces. Appreciate the transmission tips. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical > transmission. The problem in the past has been it being overrated by > manufactures. That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150 or > a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler would > aid transmission life. The hurth does not have a forced lube system > but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and > cools through heat transfer. The B&W is also a very good hydraulic > transmission. Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable. I have > sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. > Cheers. > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > > Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth > > transmisions. Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic > had > > to replace his discs after 1500 hrs. I have an opotunity to pick > up > > a used Borg Warner and rebuild it. I like this idea since it > > provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot > > less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc. I then have the option to buy > > extra parts that appear to wear more for spares. I am going to try > > out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine > > compartment. Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking > a > > stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange. rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > > I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter > when > > the > > > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main > > > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a > > hurth > > > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire > through > > the > > > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in > > the > > > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the > > > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it > > will > > > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth > > 100. > > > A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side > or > > > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a > > tiny > > > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every > time. > > > When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to > change > > > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > > > I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest > > that > > > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had > room. > > > I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > > > Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, > > ratio > > > > and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be > > interested > > > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given > > > engine > > > > RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my > sister > > is > > > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > > > Cheers. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> > > wrote: > > > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. > > > > Excellent > > > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several > trips > > to > > > > the > > > > > Charlottes and back. > > > > > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining > the > > > oil > > > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the > > mounts > > > > and > > > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve > on > > > it. > > > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow > and > > > > valve. > > > > > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had > done > > > for > > > > a > > > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch > > into > > > > the > > > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by > > four > > > > legs > > > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The > arrangement > > > > made > > > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > > > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread > elbow > > > > welded > > > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged > > with > > > > a > > > > > pipe plug. > > > > > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's > > > > impossible > > > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side > of > > the > > > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe > > > nipple > > > > on > > > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the > > top > > > > of > > > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I > > can > > > > pour > > > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running > out > > > the > > > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a > > full > > > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling > > > around > > > > at > > > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on > the > > > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to > > > catch > > > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off > the > > bat > > > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > > > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now > and > > > I've > > > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that > > stainless > > > > wet > > > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the > > point > > > > > where you inject water in . > > > > > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too > much > > > > from > > > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the > > > > success > > > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold > > is > > > > very > > > > > easy to build . > > > > > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the > > internet > > > > at > > > > > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for > keel > > > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business > > years > > > > > ago" > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:17 pm
Subject: Daihatsu CLMD25 Marine Diesel

Hi, Does anyone have any information on the Daihatsu CLMD25 1 litre marine diesel. I have bought one that was salvaged from the lifeboat of a wrecked freighter and cannot find anything about the model on the web even though I have emailed the Daihatsu Diesel. I would be especially interested to find out if it is based on the Daihatsu Charade engine. Regards to you all, Ted stone From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:21 am
Subject: Free Labour

Could you do with a little help? My vacation is April 1 to April 14. During this time I would like to help someone who is working on a Brent Swain designed boat. My preference would be to help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the hull (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc. (3) help with engine installation. The interior woodwork is not on my wish list at this time. Accomodation and food would be taken care of by me. You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you! Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland. My first welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher". I would "go for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that. If you might want any help, during that time, please email me: jcholdal@s... Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water! You would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you wished!! Thanks, John Holdal

Replies Author Date 705 Re: Free Labour rbyzitter2001 Fri 3/1/2002 707 Re: Free Labour johm gorham Sat 3/2/2002
From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 4:08 pm
Subject: Re: Free Labour

Had I had my hull on underway, I would of greatly appreciated your offer. And taken you up on it. -- In origamiboats@y..., "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...> wrote: > Could you do with a little help? My vacation is April 1 to > April 14. During this time I would like to help someone who is > working on a Brent Swain designed boat. My preference would be to > help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the > hull (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc. (3) > help with engine installation. The interior woodwork is not on my > wish list at this time. Accomodation and food would be taken care of > by me. You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you! > Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be > acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it > would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland. My first > welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so > basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher". I would "go > for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that. If you > might want any help, during that time, please email me: > jcholdal@s... Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's > boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water! You > would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you > wished!! Thanks, John Holdal From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...>
Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 5:52 pm
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

> The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; are there self-steering systems which don't? It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change quite a lot with changes in the wind. Peter

Replies Author Date 708 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Sat 3/2/2002 709 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 710 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 712 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Wed 3/6/2002
From: johm gorham <arkrecovery@y...>
Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:03 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Free Labour

cANNOT MAKE IT...lAT LAT121 North 38West
kayaker_john <jcholdal@shaw.ca> wrote:
     Could you do with a little help? My vacation is April 1 to April 14. During this time I would like to help someone who is working on a Brent Swain designed boat. My preference would be to help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the hull   (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc. (3) help with engine installation.   The interior woodwork is not on my wish list at this time. Accomodation and food would be taken care of by me. You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you! Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland. My first welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher". I would "go for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that.       If you might want any help, during that time, please email me:    jcholdal@shaw.ca         Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water!   You would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you wished!!            Thanks,            John Holdal

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Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball From: "sv_simplicity" <sv_simplicity@y...>
Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 8:11 pm
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess. I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The more things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears. One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come to mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own. Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your self- steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems. Al --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; are > there self-steering systems which don't? > > It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a > couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less > which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in > balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change > quite a lot with changes in the wind. > > Peter

Replies Author Date 709 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 710 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Sun 3/3/2002 712 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Wed 3/6/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 12:32 am
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

I used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first boat. The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. Whilre it may be possible to get it to work better on a well balanced boat, every time the wind changes direction or strength you have to re-invent the whole system.With a wind vane. al you do is change the latch a bit. My vertcally axised trimtab system steers wel downwind anytime there's enough wind to move the boat --- In origamiboats@y..., "sv_simplicity" <sv_simplicity@y...> wrote: > > A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained > brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing > mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and > that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess. > > I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The more > things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is > easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to > the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low > apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest > performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears. > > One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all > EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come to > mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own. > > Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its > the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you > are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your self- > steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary > inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John > Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent > discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems. > > Al > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > > > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; > are > > there self-steering systems which don't? > > > > It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a > > couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less > > which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in > > balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change > > quite a lot with changes in the wind. > > > > Peter From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 12:32 am
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

I used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first boat. The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. Whilre it may be possible to get it to work better on a well balanced boat, every time the wind changes direction or strength you have to re-invent the whole system.With a wind vane. al you do is change the latch a bit. My vertcally axised trimtab system steers wel downwind anytime there's enough wind to move the boat --- In origamiboats@y..., "sv_simplicity" <sv_simplicity@y...> wrote: > > A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained > brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing > mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and > that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess. > > I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The more > things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is > easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to > the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low > apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest > performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears. > > One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all > EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come to > mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own. > > Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its > the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you > are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your self- > steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary > inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John > Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent > discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems. > > Al > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > > > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; > are > > there self-steering systems which don't? > > > > It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a > > couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less > > which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in > > balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change > > quite a lot with changes in the wind. > > > > Peter

Replies Author Date 712 Re: self steering equipment sv_simplicity Wed 3/6/2002
From: "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: self steering equipment

Brent wrote:

I used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first boat. The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean.

I have a copy of that book and find it a good reference guide, but the information he has on rudders is enough to confuse me. They were still promoting the opinion that the rudder should be attached to the back of a fin keel and that a boat can not steer straight unless a skeg is in front of the rudder. I have sailed on boats with fin keels and transom hung rudders, no skeg, that go perfectly straight upwind and down.

Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5      caslingm@silk.net

Replies Author Date 713 Re: self steering equipment brentswain38 Wed 3/6/2002
From: "sv_simplicity" <sv_simplicity@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:26 pm
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

Sheet-to-tiller self steering can work over a wide range of wind strengths. The trick is having the correct tension on the elastic (see Letcher's book). I agree that windvanes are easier to adjust for course changes. But if you don't have that you get by with a sheet-to-tiller system. You can even make up a portable kit to take on any boat you sail. If you use the mainsail or small steering jib on an inner forestay and run the sheet along the windward side to the tiller, it will work from close hauled to broad reach with a minimum of re-adjustment after a wind change. The hardest point of sail to setup is dead downwind. Then you have to rig up twin headsails or do what Slocum did on Spray. That is easing the main all the way out and sheeting the jib hard in to the center of the boat. The boat will try to head up away from the main but the jib forces it back. It works better if the jib is on a long bowsprit like Spray had. As a matter of fact, Slocum lengthened Spray's bowsprit during his round the world voyage just for that purpose. I tried this method, without the sprit, on a 22 ft. fractionally rigged day sailer and it still worked. I admit that this was on smooth water in moderate wind but it shows promise (don't forget the vang!). Gaff rigs have larger mainsails that help going downwind; a marconi sloop might be under-powered in lighter winds. Regardless of what you use, I think sheet-to-tiller skills are good to know if you ever find yourself on a shorthanded boat with a broken wind vane. Al. From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

The boat was almost impossible to steer by hand downwind in strong winds. When I got to New Zealand , I pulled the rudder off the back of the keel and put a steel rudder on a steel skeg 6 feet behind the original rudder, doubling it's distance from the centre of the keel. The balance upwind was virtually unchanged , but downwind it was an entirely different boat , extremely docile. Because of the seriously assymetrical hull and lean bows-wide stern quarters ,the boat was unbalanced and had no directional stability of it's own. With the rudder at the stern where it belongs,however , I was able to finally get a self steering gear to work and she more or less steered herself for another 3,000 miles around the Western Pacific before breaking loose from a mooring and ending up on a reef in Fiji. The boat broke up ( ferro Cement, but two years later a friend took a picture of the remains of the stern being supported by an undammaged steel skeg.Had the hull been steel she wouldn't have been dammaged at all in the same conditions. I've heard of many similar success stories of people taking off keel mounted rudders and replacing them with skeg mounted rudders further aft.I'd highly recommend it on any boat. Skegs give a rudder far greater strength than any unsupported spade rudder could ever have. Having a skeg in front of a rudder greatly increases the angle it takes to stall it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...> wrote: > Brent wrote: > > I used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first > boat. > The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of > yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. > > I have a copy of that book and find it a good reference guide, but the information he has on rudders is enough to confuse me. They were still promoting the opinion that the rudder should be attached to the back of a fin keel and that a boat can not steer straight unless a skeg is in front of the rudder. I have sailed on boats with fin keels and transom hung rudders, no skeg, that go perfectly straight upwind and down. > > Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 caslingm@s... From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:58 pm
Subject: Re: self steering equipment

The self steering in my book and on my plans works extremely well for all my designs . It cost's less than $20 for materials . Some people have tried horizontal axis vanes , theoreitically more powerful, but in practise they all seemed to need a lot more wind to work downwind. None of the new improved models have worked as well as the original , and all have taken a lot more fiddling to use. On a reach in light airs I sometimes found the boat will follow a course very accurately , then suddenly wander off downwind for a while, befor returning to her proper couse. The solution was to ease the main well off, then vang it strongly down to the rail, taking all the twist out of it. After that she'd steer very accurately for days on end. Bearings should be made of plastic with at least 1/16th inch of clearance. Everything should rattle a bit. Otherwise the first bit of salt in the system will kill it's light air performance. Good hull balance in the original design makes all the difference in self steering, regardless of the vane. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; are there self-steering systems which don't? > > Brent gives instructions in his book on building your own self-steering from stainless rod and other materials, and I've seen his system on several of his designs. His system uses a trim-tab on the rudder, so there is very low stress to the machine itself. I recall him saying that he also hooked up his autohelm 800 to the lever on the trim tab, so that the autopilot has very little work to do, extending the battery life and the working life of the autopilot itself. Seems to make good sense to me, and I like the fact that if you built it yourself, then you can repair it yourself, anywhere, anytime. > > Alex Christie. From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 3:25 am
Subject: Construction

Hello all. Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under construction right now?

Replies Author Date 716 Re: Construction brentswain38 Wed 3/6/2002 718 Re: Construction david_hilliar Thu 3/7/2002 719 Re: Construction brentswain38 Thu 3/7/2002 717 Re: Construction brentswain38 Wed 3/6/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 7:49 pm
Subject: Re: Construction

There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over 100 have already been built. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello all. Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under > construction right now?

Replies Author Date 718 Re: Construction david_hilliar Thu 3/7/2002 719 Re: Construction brentswain38 Thu 3/7/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 7:51 pm
Subject: Re: Construction

Canyons Inc of McCall ID sent me a bad cheque . I returned it and haven't heard from them since. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello all. Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under > construction right now? From: "david_hilliar" <david@t...>
Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:33 am
Subject: Re: Construction

Brent Are there any boats being built or are presently located in New Zealand that you are aware of. I would be very interested in seeing on or talking to its owner. David --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over 100 > have already been built. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello all. Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under > > construction right now?

Replies Author Date 719 Re: Construction brentswain38 Thu 3/7/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:34 pm
Subject: Re: Construction

I'm unaware of any being built there at the moment, but several have passed through Whangarei ( Shinola, Mishar,and Opus which is ,I believe ,in Musket Cove in Fiji at the moment. One was thoroughly vandalised ,design wise ,by a Kiwi owner who thought he had better ways of doing things and tried to modify the whole boat to death. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "david_hilliar" <david@t...> wrote: > Brent > Are there any boats being built or are presently located in New > Zealand that you are aware of. > I would be very interested in seeing on or talking to its owner. > David > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over 100 > > have already been built. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > Hello all. Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are > under > > > construction right now? From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 2:15 am
Subject: price of lead

Well, I've started scrounging! I don't know alot of what I'm scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet! My tire dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five gallon pail full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to me for that price. This is in Vancouver, B.C.. Is it a good price? I can barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in it.

Replies Author Date 721 Re: price of lead Phillip Allen Fri 3/8/2002 723 Re: price of lead brentswain38 Sat 3/9/2002 722 Re: price of lead brentswain38 Sat 3/9/2002 726 Re: price of lead Gord Schnell Sun 3/10/2002
From: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...>
Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 12:23 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] price of lead

I believe I can speak about salvaged lead. I've spent over thirty years casting bullets for myself and can tell you 'cleaning up' five gallons of lead is hot dirt work. I always get those wheel weights for free usually with bucket. The twenty-five dollars is for his trouble in dumping them in the bucket and for your head-of-the-line status. Remember, he has no monitary investment in the 'trash' other that his having to pay attention to it when he sweeps up (that is worth something though), he does not buy them back from his coustomers and he charges the coustomer for the 'new weights' (figured into the price of balancing the tire and wheel). When I start to gather lead for as large a project as you're doing, I'll furnish buckets (with my name and phone number on them) and offer him some incintive to remember me by. I'll try to set up a schedual which allows me to pick up the bucket and replace it with a clean one before it's filled. Learn everyone's name! Learn how to flux the lead (clean it), I use borax for a large job because it's cheap and non flamable. If you have neighbors close, pick a day when the're not home (It tends to smell like a burning out house). Wear long sleaves, glasses, and keep your brain screwed in all the way...it can be dangerous! Plan each pour and remember it's heavy so don't be tempted to overload yourself.

     good luck!, Phillip (in Arkansas)

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Replies Author Date 723 Re: price of lead brentswain38 Sat 3/9/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 10:35 pm
Subject: Re: price of lead

That's an excellent price . Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@y..., "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...> wrote: > Well, I've started scrounging! I don't know alot of what I'm > scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet! My tire > dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five gallon pail > full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to me for that > price. This is in Vancouver, B.C.. Is it a good price? I can > barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in it. From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 10:42 pm
Subject: Re: price of lead

To avoid breathing fumes it's a good idea to wear a facemask. Some use a surplus gas mask. I've found it much easier to suck air through 25 feet of 1 1/2 inch plastic sump drain hose from the hardware store than a filtre. It's also much more reliable .Put the intake upwind and you'll get no lead or paint fumes whatever .The check valves in the mask will make sure the air goes the right way. The same rig is useful when it becomes time to paint your boat. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> wrote: > > I believe I can speak about salvaged lead. I've spent over thirty years casting bullets for myself and can tell you 'cleaning up' five gallons of lead is hot dirt work. I always get those wheel weights for free usually with bucket. The twenty-five dollars is for his trouble in dumping them in the bucket and for your head-of-the-line status. Remember, he has no monitary investment in the 'trash' other that his having to pay attention to it when he sweeps up (that is worth something though), he does not buy them back from his coustomers and he charges the coustomer for the 'new weights' (figured into the price of balancing the tire and wheel). When I start to gather lead for as large a project as you're doing, I'll furnish buckets (with my name and phone number on them) and offer him some incintive to remember me by. I'll try to set up a schedual which allows me to pick up the bucket and replace it with a clean one before it's filled. Learn everyone's name! Learn how to flux the lead (clean it), I use borax for a large job because it's cheap and non flamable. If you have neighbors close, pick a day when the're not home (It tends to smell like a burning out house). Wear long sleaves, glasses, and keep your brain screwed in all the way...it can be dangerous! Plan each pour and remember it's heavy so don't be tempted to overload yourself. > > good luck!, Phillip (in Arkansas) > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! From: "riptide0037" <robertgm77@e...>
Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 12:38 am
Subject: metal boat festival

August 9-11 , Vancouver, Washington . Check out the website : metalboatsociety.com I was there last year for the first time and found some good info and made a few new friends. Would be great if someone knowledgable in origami construction showed up From: "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>
Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: engines

For what it's worth. Twin Disc has a Hurth "copy" out. The MG340 (Hurth 100) and the MG360 (Hurth 150) When I checked out my pricing on them with the local TW dealer my cost was about 30% better than my cost on Hurth. And if weigh is any indication of durability they are aprox twice the weight, yet they are the same size and have aprox. the same mounting bolt pattern. In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when the > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a hurth > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through the > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in the > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it will > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth 100. > A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a tiny > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. > When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest that > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. > I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio > > and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be interested > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given > engine > > RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my sister is > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > Cheers. > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. > > Excellent > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to > > the > > > Charlottes and back. > > > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the > oil > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts > > and > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on > it. > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and > > valve. > > > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done > for > > a > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into > > the > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four > > legs > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement > > made > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow > > welded > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with > > a > > > pipe plug. > > > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's > > impossible > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe > nipple > > on > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top > > of > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can > > pour > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out > the > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling > around > > at > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to > catch > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and > I've > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless > > wet > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point > > > where you inject water in . > > > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much > > from > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the > > success > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is > > very > > > easy to build . > > > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet > > at > > > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years > > > ago" > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From: Gord Schnell <gschnell@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:41 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] price of lead

I started collecting from tire shops and soon realized I could buy clean pure lead ingot for under 30 cents a lb. from Pacific Metals in Vancouver. Hell of a lot easier and not much more $$ kayaker_john wrote: > > Well, I've started scrounging! I don't know alot of > what I'm > scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet! > My tire > dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five > gallon pail > full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to > me for that > price. This is in Vancouver, B.C.. Is it a good > price? I can > barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in > it. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:19 pm
Subject: current price of lead, Vancouver area

Upon lbs of material; assuming 10% is steel and dirt, that leaves me 262 lbs phoning Pacific Metals about the cost of lead: 1,000 pounds with each pick up, they would sell at 45 cents a pound. With taxes that would be 51 cents per pound, with me picking it up. My local tire dealer sold me two five gallon (Canadian gallon) pails for $50xx of the used tire weights. After weighing the lot I find that I have 291 of "lead" for my $50xx ---that works out to 19 cents per pound. I checked through for other crap like bolts and nuts, etc.--it was pretty clean. Thanks guys for the help and suggestions. ---Off the topic, but interesting: I've registered for a welding course with the nearby institute of technology, (not MIG) which is what was recommended to me by someone in their welding department. Upon reading Brent's book, I figured that my course was probably the correct choice. To be sure, I stopped by a welding supply store for a "store" opinion and a customer's opinion. MIG was the one!!--no doubts. Then I asked if this MIG cut metal. Reply:"Well no, but for that you take your metal to the local shop to have cut." ---Yup-- that's what I got!!! Upon reading Brent's book I've identified about 50 projects which I could do before I get my hull. That looks like a good hobby for me till that time. ----Thanks again everyone.

Replies Author Date 769 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area quatsein Mon 4/8/2002 771 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Gary H. Lucas Mon 4/8/2002 777 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area quatsein Tue 4/9/2002 776 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Leif Thomsen Mon 4/8/2002 779 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Gary H. Lucas Tue 4/9/2002 780 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Phillip Allen Tue 4/9/2002 781 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area quatsein Tue 4/9/2002
From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:51 pm
Subject: computer and I -- -- re lead price

Sorry! This computer does not like me!! No time to retry! Summary: tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound, gives per pound cost of 51 cents ----Thanks again for all suggestion.

Replies Author Date 731 Re: computer and I -- -- re lead price Gord Schnell Mon 3/11/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:01 pm
Subject: lead price

re: price of lead - hit up local tire stores for surplus balance weights early and often! (see below)

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: kayaker_john [mailto:jcholdal@shaw.ca]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 3:52 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] computer and I -- -- re lead price

   Sorry!   This computer does not like me!! No time to retry!     Summary:    tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound     metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound, gives per pound cost of 51 cents       ----Thanks again for all suggestion.

Replies Author Date 730 Re: lead price Ditmore, Stephen Mon 3/11/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:24 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] lead price

Oops, that was supposed to be a forward, not a reply. Sorry.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ditmore, Stephen [mailto:sditmore@nntllc.com]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:02 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] lead price

re: price of lead - hit up local tire stores for surplus balance weights early and often! (see below)

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: kayaker_john [mailto:jcholdal@shaw.ca]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 3:52 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] computer and I -- -- re lead price

   Sorry!   This computer does not like me!! No time to retry!     Summary:    tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound     metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound, gives per pound cost of 51 cents       ----Thanks again for all suggestion.
From: Gord Schnell <gschnell@s...>
Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] computer and I -- -- re lead price

That's a good price. I haven't looked up my receipt, but I believe Pacific Metals wanted 28 cents for cable scrap lead and 30 cents for ingot. Gord kayaker_john wrote: > > Sorry! This computer does not like me!! No time to > retry! > Summary: > tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is > steel and > dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per > pound > > metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents > per pound, > gives per pound cost of 51 cents > ----Thanks again for all suggestion. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. From: "Scott Yanke" <syanke@w...>
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:14 am
Subject: Lead

I might be able to get clean ingots for even less that $0.30 a pound. How much lead does the average hull take? and I will look in to it further. Scott Yanke "On the 10 year plan"

Replies Author Date 738 Lead greenguy2ca Thu 3/14/2002 739 Re: Lead ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002 821 Lead richytill Wed 5/1/2002 822 Re: Lead Paul Liebenberg Thu 5/2/2002
From: "John P Barker" <res0b38h@v...>
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:52 pm
Subject: Brent's book

Ok Brent, I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. Any information on that book would be appreciated. Thanks John P. Barker

Replies Author Date 742 Re: Brent's book brentswain38 Fri 3/15/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:03 pm
Subject: Dove III book

John, I've just dug up this so far regarding the Dove arctc passage book. Will get more details about source for buying it if I can. http://www.heritagehouse.ca/fineedge/arcticodyssey.html Arctic Odyssey Len Sherman $19.95 ISBN 0-938665-63-4 -Alex Christie Origamiboats moderator ----- Original Message ----- From: John P Barker <res0b38h@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent's book > Ok Brent, > I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How > much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. > You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That > voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. > Any information on that book would be appreciated. > > Thanks > John P. Barker > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:33 pm
Subject: Dove III book at Amazon

John, The book, Arctic Odyssey : Dove III Masters the Northwest Passage by Len Sherman, is available through Amazon in the US for a list price of $24.95 USD plus shipping. Here is the URL for where I found it on Amazon, but it is cheaper, even including shipping, to buy from the Canadian booksellers listed below the Amazon URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0938665634/qid%3D1015970222/ref%3Dsr% 5F11%5F0%5F1/104-8423249-3359933 Canadians: The book is published by Heritage House (www.heritagehouse.ca), and according to them costs $19.95 (CDN) and available at www.bcbooks.com and www.chapters.indigo.ca BC Books lists it at $19.95 Cdn, and ships to US for $9Cdn, so total cost is Can$29.10, which is only $18.34USD, shipping included! So buy Canadian, Eh? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: John P Barker <res0b38h@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent's book > Ok Brent, > I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How > much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. > You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That > voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. > Any information on that book would be appreciated. > > Thanks > John P. Barker > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

Replies Author Date 737 Re: Dove III book at Amazon John P Barker Tue 3/12/2002
From: "jalborey" <jalborey@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:26 pm
Subject: Dove III Book

Alex, They have it at Amazon.com From: "John P Barker" <res0b38h@v...>
Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:18 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dove III book at Amazon

Alex,

Thanks for the quick reply. I did order it from BC Books. It is incredible that it is as easy to do now. My experience at trying to get Farley Mowat's books out of Canada in the 60s was not so pleasant.

John

----- Original Message -----

From: Alex & Kim Christie

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:33 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Dove III book at Amazon

John, The book, Arctic Odyssey : Dove III Masters the Northwest Passage by Len Sherman, is available through Amazon in the US for a list price of $24.95 USD plus shipping. Here is the URL for where I found it on Amazon, but it is cheaper, even including shipping, to buy from the Canadian Canadians: The book is published by Heritage House (www.heritagehouse.ca), and according to them costs $19.95 (CDN) and available at www.bcbooks.com and www.chapters.indigo.ca So buy Canadian, Eh? Alex
From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:02 pm
Subject: Lead

I am builing a 36' bilge keeler just outside of Nanaimo and would like to hear from anyone regarding buying lead or anything else that might save us a few bucks acting together. Thanks

Replies Author Date 739 Re: Lead ravensoars2001 Fri 3/15/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:12 am
Subject: Re: Lead

I am building a 36' fin-keel on the Sunshine Coast. So far i have collected about 700lbs from tire shops here. I wheel the stuff back to my boat building shack balanced 2 buckets at a time, hanging on the handle bars of my bicycle without too much trouble. Price ranges from free, $10, $15 and up to $25 per per plastic pail: replacing the pails seems to help in some cases. I have scrounged up another 1500lbs or so from scrap. There are scrap metal dealers in Vancouver who will sell you clean lead for 33cents lbs and sometimes less. It is worth shopping around. If it helps, it seems possible to obtain lead that has been used on roofs and has tar on it for less. I will try to get a precise price if the quantity makes it worthwhile. I figure the tar will burn off during melting or the small amount that survives the pour won't harm anything once it is welded in tight. All this said, I am guessing you would prefer to shop on the Island to save on ferry costs. How much lead do you need at the moment? rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > I am builing a 36' bilge keeler just outside of Nanaimo and would > like to hear from anyone regarding buying lead or anything else that > might save us a few bucks acting together. Thanks From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:16 am
Subject: Re: engines and transmissions

Thanks for the tip. I just found a Borg Warner AS2-71C. It came with 2 coolers (1 spare) a drive plate and a shop manual. Seems to work really well and the price was right. Apperently it could be a bit of overkill but local fishermen tell me that the thing is virtually foolproof providing it is protected from salt water. Originally I discounted the idea of a motor having sailed contentedly without one. Then on the urging of friends who like to be home on time, we compromised with the thought of an outboard, adjusted that plan with the notion of a cheap gas engine; later Brent wisely advised on waiting for a diesel with forced air ducted through the engine compartment. After lusting for a new 3 cyl Isuzu at the baot show (which would have been ideal), I found a rebuilt VW Rabbit diesel engine from a wreck that I could actually pay for and own. It is the 1600cc version that enjoyed a long production run and according to the books produces 38hp at 3000 rpm. Used parts are abundant and spares relatively easy to come by. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical > transmission. The problem in the past has been it being overrated by > manufactures. That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150 or > a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler would > aid transmission life. The hurth does not have a forced lube system > but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and > cools through heat transfer. The B&W is also a very good hydraulic > transmission. Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable. I have > sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. > Cheers. > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > > Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth > > transmisions. Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic > had > > to replace his discs after 1500 hrs. I have an opotunity to pick > up > > a used Borg Warner and rebuild it. I like this idea since it > > provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot > > less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc. I then have the option to buy > > extra parts that appear to wear more for spares. I am going to try > > out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine > > compartment. Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking > a > > stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange. rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > > I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter > when > > the > > > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main > > > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a > > hurth > > > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire > through > > the > > > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in > > the > > > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the > > > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it > > will > > > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth > > 100. > > > A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side > or > > > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a > > tiny > > > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every > time. > > > When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to > change > > > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > > > I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest > > that > > > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had > room. > > > I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > > > Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, > > ratio > > > > and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be > > interested > > > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given > > > engine > > > > RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my > sister > > is > > > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > > > Cheers. > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> > > wrote: > > > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. > > > > Excellent > > > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several > trips > > to > > > > the > > > > > Charlottes and back. > > > > > The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining > the > > > oil > > > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the > > mounts > > > > and > > > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve > on > > > it. > > > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow > and > > > > valve. > > > > > When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had > done > > > for > > > > a > > > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch > > into > > > > the > > > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by > > four > > > > legs > > > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The > arrangement > > > > made > > > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > > > I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread > elbow > > > > welded > > > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged > > with > > > > a > > > > > pipe plug. > > > > > One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's > > > > impossible > > > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side > of > > the > > > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe > > > nipple > > > > on > > > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the > > top > > > > of > > > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I > > can > > > > pour > > > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running > out > > > the > > > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a > > full > > > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling > > > around > > > > at > > > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on > the > > > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to > > > catch > > > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off > the > > bat > > > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > > > My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now > and > > > I've > > > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that > > stainless > > > > wet > > > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the > > point > > > > > where you inject water in . > > > > > My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too > much > > > > from > > > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the > > > > success > > > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold > > is > > > > very > > > > > easy to build . > > > > > A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the > > internet > > > > at > > > > > www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for > keel > > > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business > > years > > > > > ago" > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:52 pm
Subject: Re: Brent's book

For a copy of my book , please send US $20 plus US$3 for postage to Suite#427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9 Thanks Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "John P Barker" <res0b38h@v...> wrote: > Ok Brent, > I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How > much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. > You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That > voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. > Any information on that book would be appreciated. > > Thanks > John P. Barker From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 10:17 pm
Subject: Grinding Discs

Most Makita angle grinders have a rather large metal backup plate for use with rigid discs. This limits the amount of use you can get out of each disc. You have to take them off when there is still a lot of disc left. When I suggested to Ken Splett that this seemed a rather foolish thing for Makita to do he said " No ,Makita sells discs ". I found it easy to cut the flange off with a cutting torch , leaving a backup plate about 1 1/2 inch in diameter, put it back on the grinder , and using another grinder with both runnibg simultaneously, machine the burned backup plate back to round.This lets you use the discs until they are totally used up and also to use smaller discs to grind the inside of holes like scuppers, etc.Being flat, it also lets you use flat discs without pulling the centre out of them. The centreing flange on the standard arrangement is a bit too deep to enable you to use the thin walter Zipcut cutting discs which are so handy and cut so fast. Of course Makita will sell you a whole other setup with a deeper groove which will handle zipcuts, for an additional fee of course. It's easy to grind the centreing flange down enough to use zipcuts, and still have enough to safely centre discs. This eliminates the need to be constantly hunting for the part you need in a pile of scrap ,and constantly having to change the backup plates as you switch from cutting to grinding discs, and thus greatly speeds up detail work. If you tighten the discs on by hand, you can usually get them off by hand, without having to hunt for the wrench. If it needs to be tighter, it will tighten itself, as the thread turns in the same direction as the grinder. Keyless pulleys on alternators work the same way. My older makita 4 inch grinder has a 10 mmx1.25 thread . This is extremely close to a 3/8th inch fine thread , which is the thread on a drill chuck. I ran a metric tap through a drill chuck and am now able to thread it on my mini grinder and use all those cheap mini grindstones on my angle grinder for touchup in hard to reach spots, all at 10,000 RPM.They are too small a diameter to have enough centrifugal force to be a serious safety hazzard. A friend who built a round bilge Brewer design , with lots of seams to grind , tried aluminium rigid discs on steel . He said that altho they dissapeared much faster than steel dics, they cut the metal down a lot faster, and he figured it was worth the extra expense on hard to reach , overhead grinding to use aluminium discs .He said the time saved more than paid for the extra cost of the discs.

Replies Author Date 744 Re: Grinding Discs Richard Payne Sun 3/17/2002 745 Re: Grinding Discs ravensoars2001 Mon 3/18/2002
From: Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...>
Date: Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:10 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Grinding Discs

I solved the disk problem by using up the disks as much as possible on a 9 inch grinder and then swapping them over to a 4 inch grinder with the same spindle diameter to use them right up. For ease of construction you really need a large and a small grinder anyway. I would be cautious about minimizing flange diameter. Regards, Richard.

Replies Author Date 745 Re: Grinding Discs ravensoars2001 Mon 3/18/2002
From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:16 pm
Subject: Re: Grinding Discs

We have deliberately destruction tested half used cut off discs using nothing but a pair of flat washers and a nut. They work well provided that the clamping surfaces are flat. The danger lies in placing the disc on a depressed cup and tightening on it unevenly. This will lead to disc fracture and they may disintegrate. By comparison, check out how small the backing plate is on a cut off saw with a 14" blade--turns out to be smaller than the one on your angle grinder most of the time. rt -- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > I solved the disk problem by using up the disks as much as possible on a > 9 inch grinder and then swapping them over to a 4 inch grinder with the > same spindle diameter to use them right up. For ease of construction you > really need a large and a small grinder anyway. I would be cautious > about minimizing flange diameter. > Regards, Richard. From: "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...>
Date: Tue Mar 19, 2002 9:37 pm
Subject: Mare Island Epoxy

Mare Island Epoxy was used to paint US Navy Vessels. I am led to believe it has been replaced by Devoe Barust 235. I would appreciate learning anything about the performance of the Mare Island product. It was manufactured by NCP Coatings MI. How well would it perform on a small steel boat? Thank you, rt From: "jalborey" <jalborey@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:11 pm
Subject: Hull repair in origami boats

I find the origami boatbuilding concept most interesting. But I have a doubt regarding the following: how can you repair a origami hull in the event it receives more or less extensive damage in places where the hull is self supported by what, as I understand it, is a "stressed skin hull"? How can you replace, in case you need to, a extended section of the hull plating where it is subjected to the forces which give form to the hull? Thanks, Jes�s

Replies Author Date 748 Re: Hull repair in origami boats brentswain38 Thu 3/21/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Mar 21, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: Hull repair in origami boats

Despite surviving everything from pounding accross 200 yards of fijian coral reef to a collision with a freighter,steel barge, logboom, etc., to pounding in 8ft surf for several weeks , etc, etc , over the past 22 years , no one has ever had to repair one. As the ends of a boat would just bounce , the only place where you are even remotely likely to dent an origami boat is midships along the chine. When replacing plate here you would have to tack several fairly wide pieces of plate on edge accross the seam to keep them in line while you are doing any welding, the break these pieces off to weld the spots where they were , and grind the outside . This is the same technique you would use to keep the bottom plates fair accross any seams there . On a single keel boat , the chine doubler plates on the inside of the hull can be made of as heavy a plate as you feel is needed ,as any weight there is amidships and low down. This greatly reduces the likelyhood of any dammage there. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "jalborey" <jalborey@y...> wrote: > I find the origami boatbuilding concept most interesting. But I have > a doubt regarding the following: how can you repair a origami hull in > the event it receives more or less extensive damage in places where > the hull is self supported by what, as I understand it, is > a "stressed skin hull"? How can you replace, in case you need to, a > extended section of the hull plating where it is subjected to the > forces which give form to the hull? > Thanks, > Jes�s From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:51 pm
Subject: Re: "NUTHIN WONG "

Jack Carson has a similar design to "Nuthin Wong"in the works . Construction on it should be beginning soon in Royston BC. You can reach him at jackaranda@h... Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "seadog122543" <seadog122543@y...> wrote: > I am very interested in the design and building of the "Nuthin > Wong " Do you know where I can find more information? John Bridges > jgbridges43@h... From: "dr01allen" <davidallen@i...>
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:05 pm
Subject: yahoo derived spam

It seems Yahoo! is once again trying to spam its users without consent. They did some server rework last week, and the news is out that they have set *every* account to receive spam and to give out your email and phone number to marketing groups. This is bad! VERY BAD! :( If you have an account with Yahoo Groups. Follow the instructions below to get yourself *out* of their latest scam. Do it quickly, or else one will likely be spam to death, receive numerous calls from telemarketers, etc. DO IT NOW! ********************************************** Yahoogroups seems to have taken the time last week while the service was down to add a "marketing" area to everyone's account. In setting this up the default they have set is "yes" which means you must "opt-out" if you don't want to receive e-mail advertising offers, etc. They set everyone up to receive spam. Here's the directions to change all preferences to "no" so you won't receive their advertising. Go to the Yahoogroups page: http://www.groups.yahoo.com . After you log in click on Account Info on the top right corner of the screen. Enter your password when prompted, then below the listing of your email addresses, you'll see a link for "Edit Marketing Preferences", click on that. You'll see it's set to Yes (please send me spam) on every option. Set them all to No, don't forget the two towards the bottom of the page about phone and snail mail spam and click the button to save it. ***********************************************

Replies Author Date 751 Re: yahoo derived spam Gord Schnell Sun 3/31/2002 752 Re: yahoo derived spam greenguy2ca Sun 3/31/2002 753 Re: yahoo derived spam hollie Sun 3/31/2002 754 Re: yahoo derived spam Stephen Wandling Mon 4/1/2002 755 Re: yahoo derived spam brentswain38 Tue 4/2/2002 756 Re: yahoo derived spam C. K. Sollitt Tue 4/2/2002 758 Re: yahoo derived spam brentswain38 Thu 4/4/2002
From: Gord Schnell <gschnell@s...>
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2002 7:17 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] yahoo derived spam

Thank you for the warning!! dr01allen wrote: > > It seems Yahoo! is > once again trying to spam its users without consent. They > did some > server rework last week, and the news is out that they > have set *every* > account to receive spam and to give out your email and > phone number to > marketing groups. This is bad! VERY BAD! :( > > If you have an account with Yahoo Groups. Follow the > instructions below > to get yourself *out* of their latest scam. Do it quickly, > or else one > will likely be spam to death, receive numerous calls from > telemarketers, > etc. DO IT NOW! > > ********************************************** > Yahoogroups seems to have taken the time last week while > the service was > down to add a "marketing" area to everyone's account. In > setting this up > the default they have set is "yes" which means you must > "opt-out" if you > don't want to receive e-mail advertising offers, etc. > They set everyone up to receive spam. Here's the > directions to change > all preferences to "no" so you won't receive their > advertising. > > Go to the Yahoogroups page: http://www.groups.yahoo.com . > After you log > in click on Account Info on the top right corner of the > screen. Enter > your password when prompted, then below the listing of > your email > addresses, you'll see a link for "Edit Marketing > Preferences", click on > that. You'll see it's set to Yes (please send me spam) on > every > option. Set them all to No, don't forget the two towards > the bottom of > the page about phone and snail mail spam and click the > button to save > it. > *********************************************** > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:28 pm
Subject: Re: yahoo derived spam

Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email Preferences...?? Gary

Replies Author Date 753 Re: yahoo derived spam hollie Sun 3/31/2002
From: "hollie" <hollie@v...>
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:39 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: yahoo derived spam

it is there - took me about 5 log ins to find it - they don't exactly shout it out at you.

-----Original Message-----
From: greenguy2ca [mailto:GPREB@HOTMAIL.COM]
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 2:29 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Re: yahoo derived spam

Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email Preferences...?? Gary

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Mon Apr 1, 2002 9:05 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: yahoo derived spam

To stop the spam you want to look for "Edit Marketing Preferences". greenguy2ca wrote: > Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email > Preferences...?? > > Gary > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705150872:H\ M/A=847665/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vbW9uc3RlcjcuZGF0=1017602913%3eM=2150\ 02.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705150872:HM/A=847665/R=1> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Replies Author Date 755 Re: yahoo derived spam brentswain38 Tue 4/2/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue Apr 2, 2002 10:52 pm
Subject: Re: yahoo derived spam

I went through the proccess you reccommended and managed to find edit marketing preferences . Sure enough , everything had been changed to yes . I changed everything back to no.Try again Gary. It took some very careful reading to find out where to go. I've been meeting friends lately who have abandonned the internet entirely because of excessive junk mail. Such practises will eventually kill the internet for all of us. Thanks for the warning. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > To stop the spam you want to look for "Edit Marketing Preferences". > > > greenguy2ca wrote: > > > Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email > > Preferences...?? > > > > Gary > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17 05150872:HM/A=847665/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/? bHlhaG9vbW9uc3RlcjcuZGF0=1017602913% 3eM=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705150872:HM/A=84766 5/R=1> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . From: "C. K. Sollitt" <sollitc@e...>
Date: Tue Apr 2, 2002 11:26 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: yahoo derived spam

Brent, I bought the Kobella last fall and am ready to purchase sails. The boat came with a 13.5 ft wood (go figure) boom. Your sail design for this boat calls for a 15.5 ft foot on the main and I have found two other 36' BS pilot house boats with 16 to 17 ft long booms. My mast is 46 ft high above the deck. Should I look for another boom? Do you recommend any specific dimensions and/or rigging for the boom? Chuck Sollitt

Replies Author Date 758 Re: yahoo derived spam brentswain38 Thu 4/4/2002
From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:56 am
Subject: Whazzzat..?

Heard there are 40,000 containers lost from container vessels floating about at any given time...10,000 lost per year. I am assuming outside of a tearomg corner hit, the origami steel boat is best constructed to survive. Suppose a corner hit.. how bad would be the damage @ say 5 knots...and what then? Thanks all.. Gary

Replies Author Date 759 Re: Whazzzat..? brentswain38 Thu 4/4/2002 760 Re: Whazzzat..? greenguy2ca Thu 4/4/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:02 am
Subject: Re: yahoo derived spam

13ft5 is mighty short for a boom. While it's nice to get it out of the cockpit, you should look for something a bit longer, as you'd be giving up a lot of sail area with such a short boom. A 5 inch diameter aluminium tube with 1/8th inch wall is adequate .Check the availability of used sails , going a bit shorter on the foot is OK but if you go too short , you'll end up with a lee helm in light winds. The rig is designed for a roachless, battenless mainsail. A combination of high roach and long boom will give you a bit of weather helm as well as the constant headachs and repairs battens inevitably cause. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "C. K. Sollitt" <sollitc@e...> wrote: > Brent, > > I bought the Kobella last fall and am ready to purchase sails. The boat > came with a 13.5 ft wood (go figure) boom. Your sail design for this > boat calls for a 15.5 ft foot on the main and I have found two other 36' > BS pilot house boats with 16 to 17 ft long booms. My mast is 46 ft high > above the deck. Should I look for another boom? Do you recommend any > specific dimensions and/or rigging for the boom? > > Chuck Sollitt From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:07 am
Subject: Re: Whazzzat..?

A friend hit a sunken barge on a sharp point while he was doing seven knots . The 3/16th inch 36 foot steel hull was only dented .A floating container would be highly unlikely to punch a hole or do any serious damage to a 36 or 40 footer built of 3/16th inch plate . Comming home from Hawaii I once hit something, while doing hull speed in the middle of the night, which was definitly metal. It bounced me right out of my bunk. The only dammage was a small dent which I only discovered years later. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > Heard there are 40,000 containers lost from container vessels > floating about at any given time...10,000 lost per year. I am > assuming outside of a tearomg corner hit, the origami steel boat is > best constructed to survive. Suppose a corner hit.. how bad would be > the damage @ say 5 knots...and what then? > > Thanks all.. Gary

Replies Author Date 760 Re: Whazzzat..? greenguy2ca Thu 4/4/2002
From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:24 am
Subject: Re: Whazzzat..?

Thanks Brent... On my first attempt at building (wrong economic assumptions..my part entirely).. your 36 ft'r..it was near Cumberland on some acreage where the owner had cattle.. He roped off the area around the boat..not to protect the structure but to protect his herd from bruising the fillet... Gary From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 10:09 pm
Subject: Gas Cutting Guide

Hi folks, Do you have any good ideas or information on using a flexible batten as a guide for the gas torch when cutting out steel plate or sheet? Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 762 Re: Gas Cutting Guide brentswain38 Fri 4/5/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 12:03 am
Subject: Re: Gas Cutting Guide

A flexible batten made of deck beam flatbar tacked to the plate works well with a plasma cutter. With a cutting torch, as soon as the heat from the torch hits the batten, it expands and takes on all kinds of funny shapes . It would take something much stiffer, such as angle iron, to hold it's shape , and that would limit it's ability to go around curves . I've found that a heavy piece of plate , used as a guide and moved every couple of feet works OK. Perhaps flatbar which is not tacked to the plate , but is supported between small pieces of scrap which are tacked to the plate , may leave the flatbar free to expand longitudinally and thus avoid the heat expansion problem. I've never tried this, but it may work. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Hi folks, > > Do you have any good ideas or information on using a flexible batten > as a guide for the gas torch when cutting out steel plate or sheet? > > Ted Stone From: "robert44654" <robert44654@y...>
Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 3:16 pm
Subject: new ideas

I am back again! I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is revelalutionary! Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower hull models. MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about 10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat. What I did was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches by 3 inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length or less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter circle, and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a straight line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle. (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends). then tape them together similair to the method of brent swain's model. For the transom cut a semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back. The boat seems to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward or backward. this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter bottom, which is good. The shape of a cross section of the stern of the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from side to side of the boat. Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at least greater than 40 feet. 2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the boat not pointed) 3) multihulls OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8 foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water. Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end to end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely the outside) the lines of each half hull lofted onto the fiberglass and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction methods of Brent with steel. Blue board can be melted/dissolved in epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not the ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of). Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of fiberglass to the blue board is weak. Solution: There may have to bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and the outside fiberglass bond to each other. Probablely they could be joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts in the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is wetted through the cuts.

Replies Author Date 772 Re: new ideas burr.halpern@a... Mon 4/8/2002 787 Re: new ideas brentswain38 Wed 4/10/2002
From: "robert44654" <robert44654@y...>
Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 6:12 pm
Subject: fiberglass female mold

Another idea: Build half boats with brents disign,( may want to design to slightly ligther displacement) and use the inside of the half hulls as forms for fiberglass boat. The inside of the forms can easily be faired by taking a large radius forming paddle in the shape of a semi circle and filling in (with a fairing compound) the "dimple" that is created below the waterline that is created by the chine. The form can be made out of thin plywood at litttle cost. Make sure to apply some sort of releasing compound to the form before the gelcoat and fiberglass is applied. From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 9:55 pm
Subject: Welds

Just wondering about the permeability of welds. I realize that after epoxy & paint there is not much chance of leaks, but can welds actually leak? Gary

Replies Author Date 766 Re: Welds Gary H. Lucas Sun 4/7/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 10:07 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welds

In theory a weld can be as impermeable as the base metal. I watched the construction of a large stainless tank for the testing of spacecraft at deep space vacuum levels. The tank was stick welded from 2" thick stainless, then all the welds were 'washed' with a tig torch to seal any possible voids in the surface. I used to do work for a chemical plant where we welded mild steel hot oil lines. They had to carry oil heated to a temperature of 550 degrees Fahrenheit. A pinhole leak was dangerous because it would spray atomized oil into the air and it would immediately catch fire. We pressure tested everything with air at about 100 psi and used soap bubbles to test for leaks. No problem getting bubble tight welds, if you were careful.

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: greenguy2ca

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 4:55 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Welds

Just wondering about the permeability of welds. I realize that after
epoxy & paint there is not much chance of leaks, but can welds
actually leak?

Gary

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From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 12:24 am
Subject: Want to buy boat plans

Brent,

I want to order plans for your 31' boat. Is the price still $300? Where do I send the money?

Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 785 Re: Want to buy boat plans brentswain38 Wed 4/10/2002
From: "claudepoitras" <claude.poitras@s...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 3:56 am
Subject: Boat Insurance

I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get proper insurance? Are insurance company not leary of back-yard builders?

Replies Author Date 770 Re: Boat Insurance alex_christie Mon 4/8/2002 788 Re: Boat Insurance brentswain38 Wed 4/10/2002
From: "quatsein" <quatsein@i...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 4:26 am
Subject: Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion). It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weld with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's best not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are actually building metal boats. Steve Carlisle From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:49 am
Subject: Re: Boat Insurance

To get insurance for your boat, most companies require you to have it surveyed, even if it is built of fibreglass, wood, metal, concrete, or whatever. This way, both you and the company know and agree what kind of condition the hull is in, the state of its safety equipment, and most importantly, how much money it is worth should it need to be replaced. It should not be a problem insuring a steel boat, even if it is home-built. The other kind of insurance, called "liability" is what you get to insure yourself in case you damage someone else's property or person with your vessel. The hull material in this case doesn't make much difference, unless your hull is made of something explosive! Is your insurance broker leery about insuring a metal boat? There are thousands of insurance brokers out there who would be very happy to have your business, so if at first try you find your request for insurance turned down, simply "go across the street" to the next company, and you will likely have better luck. Steel is not an uncommon material in the marine industry, of course--- look at all the steel ships out there! Alex . Liabilit--- In origamiboats@y..., "claudepoitras" <claude.poitras@s...> wrote: > I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. > If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get > proper insurance? Are insurance company not leary of back-yard > builders?

Replies Author Date 788 Re: Boat Insurance brentswain38 Wed 4/10/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 1:22 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

I have a lot of experience with bad MIG welds. I owned a company that made parts which were hot dip galvanized after welding. A beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart after galvanizing. It was very scary since these parts were intended to hang machinery from overhead! We determined that the problem was due to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration. In particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem. It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds look great. We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga. tubing.   We refuse to accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference by eye. The welding companies always argue with this because it is sometimes much more difficult to weld out of position. Once the welders get experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding process is much quicker at the higher current levels.

A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding machines. When a weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and initiates the arc. If the transformer in the welding machine is too small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a cold start, and a bad weld. Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration than 0.035"

I would weld a steel hull with MIG without hesitation. Using the right machine and the right techniques you will get less heat distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc. You also can weld out of position much easier than with stick.

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: quatsein

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how
easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the
welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion).
It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weld
with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's best
not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless
they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are
actually building metal boats.

Steve Carlisle

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Replies Author Date 777 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area quatsein Tue 4/9/2002
From: "burr.halpern@a..." <burr.halpern@a...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 1:34 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] new ideas

The idea of a ling narrow cruiser makes a lot of sense for a hardchine boat. While not exactly an Origamiboat, in that it has internal athrwarship framing, SteelStar by Yves Tanton http://www.tantonyachts.com/ is a really great example of this type. Jeff robert44654 wrote: > I am back again! > I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is > revelalutionary! Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower > hull models. MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about > 10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When > you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that > occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat. What I did > was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches by 3 > inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from > the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length or > less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter circle, > and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a straight > line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle. > (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends). then tape them together similair to > the method of brent swain's model. For the transom cut a > semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment > slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back. The boat seems > to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward > or backward. this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter > bottom, which is good. The shape of a cross section of the stern of > the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from side > to side of the boat. > Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at least > greater than 40 feet. > 2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the boat > not pointed) > 3) multihulls > > OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8 > foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water. > Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end to > end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely > the outside) the lines of each half hull lofted onto the fiberglass > and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction > methods of Brent with steel. Blue board can be melted/dissolved in > epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on > this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not the > ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of). > Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what > dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of > fiberglass to the blue board is weak. Solution: There may have to > bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and > the outside fiberglass bond to each other. Probablely they could be > joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either > making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts in > the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is > wetted through the cuts. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Replies Author Date 787 Re: new ideas brentswain38 Wed 4/10/2002
From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 6:14 pm
Subject: questions re stainless steel

We just bought six stainless steel piecees for stanchions, but they were very dull, almost a grey color. The metal dealer (scrap yard) told us it was the "mill finish". He said that we could polish them up. Is this true? If true, how do you get the shine in them. (By "shine", I mean that stainless steel "look".) Oh yes, they were non-magnetic. -------John Holdal, Mission, B.C.

Replies Author Date 774 Re: questions re stainless steel francois letourneau Mon 4/8/2002 778 Re: questions re stainless steel kayaker_john Tue 4/9/2002
From: francois letourneau <frlet@y...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 6:34 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] questions re stainless steel

--- kayaker_john <jcholdal@s...> wrote: Hi kayaker John. I am new to the board, Are you thinking about making a metal see kayak using the origami method??? Regards Francois Designer, Inno3D, Quebec __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Replies Author Date 778 Re: questions re stainless steel kayaker_john Tue 4/9/2002
From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:01 pm
Subject: Pacific Metals' price of lead, Vancouver

Pacific Metals gave me the following prices today: (1)scrap lead at 45 cents per pound----containing high 90%s amount of lead (2) ingots of pure lead at 55 cents per pound -----containing over 99% lead. ----Good Luck, John Holdal From: "Leif Thomsen" <leif@l...>
Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

I fully agree! After several yachts, the last one was a 40 feet steel junkrigged scooner I am convinced that MIGwelding, using the right teqnique and equipment produces strong and watertight welds, and saving a lot of time.

Leif Thomsen

Sweden

----- Original Message -----

From: Gary H. Lucas

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 2:22 PM

Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

I have a lot of experience with bad MIG welds. I owned a company that made parts which were hot dip galvanized after welding. A beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart after galvanizing. It was very scary since these parts were intended to hang machinery from overhead! We determined that the problem was due to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration. In particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem. It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds look great. We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga. tubing.   We refuse to accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference by eye. The welding companies always argue with this because it is sometimes much more difficult to weld out of position. Once the welders get experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding process is much quicker at the higher current levels.

A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding machines. When a weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and initiates the arc. If the transformer in the welding machine is too small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a cold start, and a bad weld. Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration than 0.035"

I would weld a steel hull with MIG without hesitation. Using the right machine and the right techniques you will get less heat distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc. You also can weld out of position much easier than with stick.

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: quatsein

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how
easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the
welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion).
It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weld
with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's best
not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless
they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are
actually building metal boats.

Steve Carlisle

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From: "quatsein" <quatsein@i...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 5:19 am
Subject: Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

Well Gary, I have to disagree with most of all your comments in regards to MIG welding, except maybe the part about the welding machine quality, however I think it's more about people buying too small a machine for the job. I can say this because I am certified, and have tested in all processes and positions. The problems that you speak of are not process related but technique related. Steve --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > I have a lot of experience with bad MIG welds. I owned a company that made parts which were hot dip galvanized after welding. A beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart after galvanizing. It was very scary since these parts were intended to hang machinery from overhead! We determined that the problem was due to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration. In particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem. It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds look great. We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga. tubing. We refuse to accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference by eye. The welding companies always argue with this because it is sometimes much more difficult to weld out of position. Once the welders get experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding process is much quicker at the higher current levels. > > A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding machines. When a weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and initiates the arc. If the transformer in the welding machine is too small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a cold start, and a bad weld. Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration than 0.035" > > I would weld a steel hull with MIG without hesitation. Using the right machine and the right techniques you will get less heat distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc. You also can weld out of position much easier than with stick. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: quatsein > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area > > > John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how > easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the > welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion). > It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weld > with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's best > not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless > they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are > actually building metal boats. > > Steve Carlisle > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 6:53 am
Subject: Re: questions re stainless steel

No, I'm not even remotely thinking of a metal kayak; however, I am thinking about a "metal mothership" about 36 feet in length from which I can launch a small kayak to go "gunk holing". My identifier name, "kayaker_john" was my attempt at not being able to be easly indentified as I was very uneasy about joining an internet group. Since then I have been so pleased with this group that I've tried to change my member name to just "John Holdal" ---but have been unable to do so. Welcome to the group. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. There are alot of very expereinced people here who give excellent advice. ----"John Holdal"--- In origamiboats@y..., francois letourneau <frlet@y...> wrote: > > --- kayaker_john <jcholdal@s...> wrote: > > Hi kayaker John. I am new to the board, Are you > thinking about making a metal see kayak using the > origami method??? > > Regards > > Francois > Designer, Inno3D, Quebec > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

Steve,

I agree that someone who is an expert in the process AND has the metal properly prepared CAN make excellent quality welds using the smaller wire sizes. My experience is that the welder in not always the most qualified, and the metal is not always in ideal conditions. I was making hangers to hang machinery overhead. We were making thousands of parts, and even a defect rate of 1 per thousand would not be acceptable. I have had numerous welders make the same statement you are, and swear they have never experienced the failures I am worried about, then deliver welds that failed after hot dip galvanizing! In every case simply forcing them to use the larger wire, with more current, welding faster, and yes not producing quite as nice looking weld solved the problem. We are talking amateur boat builders here. My advice WILL improve the chances of them building a boat successfully.

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: quatsein

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 12:19 AM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

Well Gary, I have to disagree with most of all your comments
in regards to MIG welding, except maybe the part about the
welding machine quality, however I think it's more about
people buying too small a machine for the job. I can say this
because I am certified, and have tested in all processes and
positions. The problems that you speak of are not process
related but technique related.

Steve

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:
> I have a lot of experience with bad MIG welds. I owned a company
that made parts which were hot dip galvanized after welding. A
beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart after
galvanizing. It was very scary since these parts were intended to
hang machinery from overhead! We determined that the problem was due
to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration. In
particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major
problem. It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even
though the welds look great. We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL
welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4"
parts welded to 16 ga. tubing.   We refuse to accept any parts welded
with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference by eye. The
welding companies always argue with this because it is sometimes much
more difficult to weld out of position. Once the welders get
experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding
process is much quicker at the higher current levels.
>
> A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding machines. When a
weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially shoots way up,
to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and
initiates the arc. If the transformer in the welding machine is too
small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a
cold start, and a bad weld. Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders
use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration
than 0.035"
>
> I would weld a steel hull with MIG without hesitation. Using the
right machine and the right techniques you will get less heat
distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating
extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc. You also can
weld out of position much easier than with stick.
>
> Gary H. Lucas
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: quatsein
>   To: origamiboats@y...
>   Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26 PM
>   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area
>
>
>   John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how
>   easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the
>   welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of
fusion).
>   It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality
weld
>   with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's
best
>   not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless
>   they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are
>   actually building metal boats.
>
>   Steve Carlisle
>
>
>
>   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...
>   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-
unsubscribe@y...
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Replies Author Date 780 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Phillip Allen Tue 4/9/2002 781 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area quatsein Tue 4/9/2002
From: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

I think it would be good to remember to whom Gary is speaking. As I see it, Mr. Lucas is speaking to those of us who are NOT profesional welders. I myself, will certinly need to learn as much as I can. Please carry on Gary, my brain isn't full yet.
     Phillip Allen

>
>
>   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...
>   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-
unsubscribe@y...
>
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Replies Author Date 781 Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area quatsein Tue 4/9/2002
From: "quatsein" <quatsein@i...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 4:14 pm
Subject: Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area

The purpuse of my post was to make aware to the amatuer boatbuilder that the mig welding process can easily produce unnaceptable welds in the hands of an amatuer, and as Gary states, also in the hands of experienced welders. The stick welding process does not produce anywhere near the amount of poor welds, even in the hands of the less experienced. It however produces welds not nearly as nice in appearance as MIG. Welding is a hands on experience, and you get better by doing, not by reading. The scary part is that a persons homebuilt boat project, at the start, is likely to have many inferior welds that could fail in a heavy sea. food for thought. Steve --- In origamiboats@y..., Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> wrote: > > I think it would be good to remember to whom Gary is speaking. As I see it, Mr. Lucas is speaking to those of us who are NOT profesional welders. I myself, will certinly need to learn as much as I can. Please carry on Gary, my brain isn't full yet. > Phillip Allen > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax From: "carlmbentley" <carlmbentley@y...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 8:26 pm
Subject: keel bulbs

all the talk of welding and lead prices just reminded me of an idea i had a while back but never got around to posting. when i first joined this group i read all the back posts, there was a brief discussion on bulbs at the bottems of twin keels. i recall brent asking if anyone knew where to get cheap used oxygen bottles. couldn't the same goal be reached just by welding 2 pieces of 8 inch X "length of the keel" steel into an "L" onto the inside and outside of the keels, leaving the original bottem intact so as not to add draft. and then just filling them with lead and capping both ends ? front view / / keel ---> / _/ |/_| side view \ / \ / \ ___________/ \ |||||||||/ <--- added weight or something to that effect (hey it's hard to draw with keyboard characters) also you would have to be careful of protruding out from the front of the keel, my father had welded stainless "skis" unto his bilge keels to save the paint on the bottems, or more likely to save having to paint them in the first place. but he left a little lip on both sides just like a ski, for towing on or off beaches i guess ? He was always snagging trash on them though, course he never complained about having to pull a lobster trap off. anyway just an idea from a novice, so feel free to point out the glaring hole in my logic.

Replies Author Date 784 Re: keel bulbs brentswain38 Wed 4/10/2002
From: "carlmbentley" <carlmbentley@y...>
Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 8:43 pm
Subject: huh

so much for my little drawing, the post got butchered. oh well, hopefully ya'll get the idea. From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:10 pm
Subject: Re: keel bulbs

It's capping the ends in a manner which gives a hydrodynamic , streamlined result which is the problem with pipe.. The rounded ends of an oxygen bottle give a great front end. Tapering the trailing ends to a point would take a bit of experimenting ( Maybe with spent CO2 cartridges which are the same shape as oxygen bottles.) Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "carlmbentley" <carlmbentley@y...> wrote: > all the talk of welding and lead prices just reminded me of an idea i > had a while back but never got around to posting. > > when i first joined this group i read all the back posts, there was a > brief discussion on bulbs at the bottems of twin keels. i recall > brent asking if anyone knew where to get cheap used oxygen bottles. > > couldn't the same goal be reached just by welding 2 pieces of 8 inch > X "length of the keel" steel into an "L" onto the inside and outside > of the keels, leaving the original bottem intact so as not to add > draft. and then just filling them with lead and capping both ends ? > > front view / > / > keel ---> / > _/ > |/_| > > > side view > > \ / > \ / > \ ___________/ > \ |||||||||/ <--- added weight > > > > or something to that effect (hey it's hard to draw with keyboard > characters) > > also you would have to be careful of protruding out from the front of > the keel, my father had welded stainless "skis" unto his bilge keels > to save the paint on the bottems, or more likely to save having to > paint them in the first place. but he left a little lip on both sides > just like a ski, for towing on or off beaches i guess ? He was always > snagging trash on them though, course he never complained about > having to pull a lobster trap off. > > anyway just an idea from a novice, so feel free to point out the > glaring hole in my logic. From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: Want to buy boat plans

Plans for the 31 footer are still $300 . Please send a postal money order to Brent Swain Suite #427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9 Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > Brent, > I want to order plans for your 31' boat. Is the price still $300? Where do I send the money? > > Gary H. Lucas From: "kahugaha" <kahugaha@y...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 8:30 pm
Subject: catalog for Swain's designs?

Is there such a thing? You know, little line drawings of plan and profile and accomodations, perhaps with a little descriptive text saying what the design goals were. For example, Bolger has "Different Boats" and Colvin has "Cruising Designs" and LF Herreshoff has "The Compleat Cruiser". Or maybe a web site like MacNaughton's http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/ ? Thanks!

Replies Author Date 789 Re: catalog for Swain's designs? Alex & Kim Christie Thu 4/11/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:23 pm
Subject: Re: new ideas

Fibreglass sheet is available in rolls. You could sand it and leave it in . It can also be great for making models. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern@a..." <burr.halpern@a...> wrote: > The idea of a ling narrow cruiser makes a lot of sense for a hardchine boat. While > not exactly an Origamiboat, in that it has internal athrwarship framing, SteelStar by > Yves Tanton http://www.tantonyachts.com/ is a really great example of this type. > > Jeff > > robert44654 wrote: > > > I am back again! > > I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is > > revelalutionary! Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower > > hull models. MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about > > 10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When > > you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that > > occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat. What I did > > was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches by 3 > > inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from > > the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length or > > less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter circle, > > and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a straight > > line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle. > > (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends). then tape them together similair to > > the method of brent swain's model. For the transom cut a > > semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment > > slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back. The boat seems > > to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward > > or backward. this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter > > bottom, which is good. The shape of a cross section of the stern of > > the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from side > > to side of the boat. > > Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at least > > greater than 40 feet. > > 2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the boat > > not pointed) > > 3) multihulls > > > > OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8 > > foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water. > > Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end to > > end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely > > the outside) the lines of each half hull lofted onto the fiberglass > > and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction > > methods of Brent with steel. Blue board can be melted/dissolved in > > epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on > > this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not the > > ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of). > > Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what > > dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of > > fiberglass to the blue board is weak. Solution: There may have to > > bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and > > the outside fiberglass bond to each other. Probablely they could be > > joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either > > making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts in > > the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is > > wetted through the cuts. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:16 pm
Subject: Re: Boat Insurance

None of my boats have had any problem passing survey or getting insurance as far as I'm aware.Even the worst built steel boats are lightyears stronger and less risk for an insurance company than a stock fibreglass boat, something most insurance companies are aware of.Several origami aluminium boats were recently built in Port Hardy to Canada Shipping Act standards for passenger vessels. When the owners said they were using my methods , the surveyors said " We are aware of the proccess, no problem." Brent Swain Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > To get insurance for your boat, most companies require you to have it > surveyed, even if it is built of fibreglass, wood, metal, concrete, > or whatever. This way, both you and the company know and agree what > kind of condition the hull is in, the state of its safety equipment, > and most importantly, how much money it is worth should it need to be > replaced. It should not be a problem insuring a steel boat, even if > it is home-built. > > The other kind of insurance, called "liability" is what you get to > insure yourself in case you damage someone else's property or person > with your vessel. The hull material in this case doesn't make much > difference, unless your hull is made of something explosive! > > Is your insurance broker leery about insuring a metal boat? There are > thousands of insurance brokers out there who would be very happy to > have your business, so if at first try you find your request for > insurance turned down, simply "go across the street" to the next > company, and you will likely have better luck. > > Steel is not an uncommon material in the marine industry, of course- -- > look at all the steel ships out there! > > Alex > > > > > . Liabilit--- In origamiboats@y..., "claudepoitras" > <claude.poitras@s...> wrote: > > I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. > > If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get > > proper insurance? Are insurance company not leary of back-yard > > builders? From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:59 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] catalog for Swain's designs?

Brent's book may answer some of the questions you have. His philosophy about boatbuilding is very clear throughout the text. His book is available directly from him, at the address in the last posting (address is also located in the files section under "contact information", or write Brent directly via email at brentswain38@h... . Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: kahugaha <kahugaha@y...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] catalog for Swain's designs? > > Is there such a thing? You know, little line drawings > of plan and profile and accomodations, perhaps with a > little descriptive text saying what the design goals > were. For example, Bolger has "Different Boats" and > Colvin has "Cruising Designs" and LF Herreshoff has > "The Compleat Cruiser". Or maybe a web site like > MacNaughton's http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/ ? > > Thanks! > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "winslow59" <winslow59@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:59 pm
Subject: Visiting Vancouver Island

I will be on Vancouver Island with some free time, and a car, Friday, 25 April. I hope to have an opportunity to see some examples of Swain design sailboats (complete or under construction). Are there any group members available to show their boats and answer questions from someone hoping to get started within the next 12 months? -Markus winslow59@y...

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Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:22 pm
Subject: Welder needed in Vancouver BC

I need a welder to assist me in completing a 34' steel sailboat hull which is now in Richmond, BC. There are numerous things to be done, but a significant item is grinding and rewelding the underwater seams, which may be about a weeks work. I supply the welder and consumables, as well as the grinder and disks. Work to start immediately. Respond directly to me at stephenw@t... or call (604) 649-1418. References will be required. Stephen Wandling From: "claudepoitras" <claude.poitras@s...>
Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 4:42 am
Subject: Origami 36 design

I plan on building a 36 foot Origami boat in the next few year. I like the curved deck shape of the (sharler junk) boat in photo. I wonder how he managed that. Would the boat be more sea worthy? I would like my boat built like that with a maine and mizen. This should make sail handling easer because the sail are smaller. I also would like to have an aft cabin. Is this unrealistic on a 36 foot boat? Can it be built from the basic plans? From: "buckrogers1234" <buckrogers1234@y...>
Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 5:57 am
Subject: sail area

Would anyone know the total sail area of the Swain 36, so the sail area displacement ratio can be calculated. Thanks Brian From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:20 am
Subject: Ownership

Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to the question of at what time, during the building process do you register the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. Thanks Gary

Replies Author Date 797 Re: Ownership Alex & Kim Christie Thu 4/18/2002 800 Re: Ownership Doug Barnard Thu 4/18/2002 803 Re: Ownership Jim Phillips Fri 4/19/2002 804 Re: Ownership james floyd Fri 4/19/2002 806 Re: Ownership lon wells Fri 4/19/2002 802 Re: Ownership Claude Poitras Fri 4/19/2002 798 Re: Ownership Joe Casey Thu 4/18/2002 807 Re: Ownership Gord Schnell Sun 4/21/2002 808 Re: Ownership edward_stoneuk Sun 4/21/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:27 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership

Gary writes: > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. Anyone who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, knows how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be unlikely to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind. The fact is that people's lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone else's life. It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and straightforward. My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone else has already built a steel boat. That way, you have some background on previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to expect, since he has already rented it out before. In other words, follow in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my building site; what are your instincts about the owner of the land? Does he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land? Be clear about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take into account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to a steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to jump at the first opportunity. It isn't like everyone is vying for boatbuilding space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to see the place. Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast their attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive or nosey-seeming. News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in these parts. What can you do to prove ownership? Even tacked together, your boat is simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry there is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard. A creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk of steel can prove otherwise. The word of the land owner is worth nothing in this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel to others in order to protect it... Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of registering personal property. In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) can be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. I don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, and I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've taken out a licence. This may or may not be true for the USA. The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she can be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be. Getting a bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of moving it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull which can take many months or sometimes years to put together. Many origami boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much complaint from neighbours. This is may be because the construction of the origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or it goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc rich primer) steel we can get here in Canada. I'll leave it to him to tell if he likes. It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre" on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and concerns listed above. A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles of scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting out would round it out nicely. It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood. The owners would benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at the best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and guidance on hand as needed. A person could arrive by air and leave by sea in their own boat if they got it done on site. What do you think? Would the idea "float", so to speak? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@H...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to the > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > Thanks > > Gary > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

Replies Author Date 800 Re: Ownership Doug Barnard Thu 4/18/2002 803 Re: Ownership Jim Phillips Fri 4/19/2002 804 Re: Ownership james floyd Fri 4/19/2002 806 Re: Ownership lon wells Fri 4/19/2002 802 Re: Ownership Claude Poitras Fri 4/19/2002
From: "Joe Casey" <jcasey@w...>
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 6:11 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership

Hi Alex, Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one. You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also available in the US? Regards, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:27 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > Gary writes: > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. Anyone > who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, knows > how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often > leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be unlikely > to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind. The fact is that people's > lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must > protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone > else's life. It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the > issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and > straightforward. > > My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone else > has already built a steel boat. That way, you have some background on > previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to > expect, since he has already rented it out before. In other words, follow > in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! > > If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my > building site; what are your instincts about the owner of the land? Does > he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land? Be clear > about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take into > account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to a > steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to jump > at the first opportunity. It isn't like everyone is vying for boatbuilding > space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to > see the place. Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast their > attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should > also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals > Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive > or nosey-seeming. News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in > these parts. > > What can you do to prove ownership? Even tacked together, your boat is > simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry there > is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard. A > creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of > value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk of > steel can prove otherwise. The word of the land owner is worth nothing in > this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel > to others in order to protect it... > > Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself > concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a > licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of > registering personal property. In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) can > be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's > measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. I > don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, and > I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've > taken out a licence. This may or may not be true for the USA. > > The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical > origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she can > be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be. Getting a > bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of moving > it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull > which can take many months or sometimes years to put together. Many origami > boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much > complaint from neighbours. This is may be because the construction of the > origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or it > goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! > > Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an > unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc rich > primer) steel we can get here in Canada. I'll leave it to him to tell if > he likes. > > It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre" > on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come > build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and > concerns listed above. A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles of > scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting > out would round it out nicely. It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, > in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard > School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood. The owners would > benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at the > best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and > guidance on hand as needed. A person could arrive by air and leave by sea > in their own boat if they got it done on site. > > What do you think? Would the idea "float", so to speak? > > Alex > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@H...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to the > > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > > > Thanks > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 6:52 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] pre-primed steel

Yes, some members had mentioned once having trouble sourcing wheel-abraded, shot-blasted, pre-primed steel in the US, but this may not be the case in every state. Also, there may be some pre-primed steels that are not so extensively treated, I don't know. I would not recommend it if if were only lightly primed. The advantage of the kind we can get here is that it avoids the need for sandblasting the hull-- a messy and expen$ive job which is often a barrier/stumbling block for many home-built boats (especially if you are in a residential neighborhood). The zinc-rich primer available here is tough as nails and makes a fine base for subsequent layers of epoxy. Only the welding seams need to be ground and primed by hand, but thankfully there aren't that many on origami style hulls. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Casey <jcasey@w...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > Hi Alex, > > Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one. > > You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also > available in the US? > > Regards, > Joe > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@t...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:27 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > Gary writes: > > > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > > That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. > Anyone > > who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, > knows > > how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often > > leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be > unlikely > > to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind. The fact is that people's > > lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must > > protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone > > else's life. It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the > > issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and > > straightforward. > > > > My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone > else > > has already built a steel boat. That way, you have some background on > > previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to > > expect, since he has already rented it out before. In other words, follow > > in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! > > > > If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my > > building site; what are your instincts about the owner of the land? Does > > he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land? Be > clear > > about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take > into > > account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to > a > > steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to > jump > > at the first opportunity. It isn't like everyone is vying for > boatbuilding > > space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to > > see the place. Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast > their > > attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should > > also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals > > Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive > > or nosey-seeming. News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in > > these parts. > > > > What can you do to prove ownership? Even tacked together, your boat is > > simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry > there > > is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard. A > > creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of > > value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk > of > > steel can prove otherwise. The word of the land owner is worth nothing in > > this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel > > to others in order to protect it... > > > > Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself > > concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a > > licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of > > registering personal property. In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) > can > > be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's > > measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. > I > > don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, > and > > I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've > > taken out a licence. This may or may not be true for the USA. > > > > The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical > > origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she > can > > be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be. Getting a > > bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of > moving > > it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull > > which can take many months or sometimes years to put together. Many > origami > > boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much > > complaint from neighbours. This is may be because the construction of the > > origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or > it > > goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! > > > > Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an > > unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc > rich > > primer) steel we can get here in Canada. I'll leave it to him to tell if > > he likes. > > > > It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding > Centre" > > on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come > > build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and > > concerns listed above. A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles > of > > scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting > > out would round it out nicely. It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, > > in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard > > School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood. The owners > would > > benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at > the > > best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and > > guidance on hand as needed. A person could arrive by air and leave by sea > > in their own boat if they got it done on site. > > > > What do you think? Would the idea "float", so to speak? > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@H...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > > > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to the > > > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > > > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

Replies Author Date 801 Re: pre-primed steel Joe Casey Fri 4/19/2002 805 Source for lumber Doug Barnard Fri 4/19/2002
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 7:17 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership

I'll admit to being freaked out about this, as well. The idea of getting halfway done, then having your landlord give you the boot, well, it sure isn't pleasant. This (and transportation) was probably one of the main reasons that I scrapped the idea of building an origami trawler. To pull it off, I'd have to in sight of water. Waterfront space in So. Cal. is extremely dear, so that would put an end to any kind of relaxed building plans. Also, you can't work on your boat in the water in most marinas, and there's really nowhere to just anchor out. Luckily, I have a side driveway that would make an acceptable site for one of Brent's plans. I'll probably have to take the boat to completion there, rather than launching earlier and getting some enjoyment out of it. It's great that the origami hulls go together so fast, but I don't think that every builder needs to be hell-bent-for-leather about getting over the horizon. Enjoying the building process, and being thoughtful about the systems will probably get you much farther ahead. I have to always remind myself: less haste, more speed. Having just finished a hull-up re-design of a 20' go-fast I/O, I can look back on numerous pleasant sessions of "driveway cruising", sitting in the cockpit, with a shot and a beer at sunset, scheming out the next moves with my wife. Back to the thread: Personally, I'd suggest a written agreement between you and the landlord. If it says that the purpose is for boatbuilding, that says something about finding a boat on the property. Then, as soon as the hull is tacked together, go ahead and register it. Here in California, you basically go down to the DMV and fill out paperwork. There are also services that will help you to get a Certificate of Documentation, that supercedes state registration: http://www.captaingreg.net/indexds.html Besides, unless your boat is painted, most folks would probably want it hauled away, rather than try to acquire it! db

Replies Author Date 803 Re: Ownership Jim Phillips Fri 4/19/2002 804 Re: Ownership james floyd Fri 4/19/2002 806 Re: Ownership lon wells Fri 4/19/2002
From: "Joe Casey" <jcasey@w...>
Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 7:45 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] pre-primed steel

Thanks for that information Alex. I am in southern Louisiana and my local port, the Port of New Orleans, is one of the largest destinations of foreign steel in the US, at least it was before our return to protectionism. If there is interest I will let the list know the results of my search for this specialty steel and it would help if you could tell me where the steel you have access to is made and a more specific brand name or content specification of the coating. I wonder why sandblasting is expensive. Is it because of the air volumes necessitating a huge compressor or is it because there is a reason the hull can't be divided up into smaller sections and sandblasted and painted in manageable pieces or is an expensive medium, other than sand necessary? I can visualize the mess with no assistance. Best, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@t...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] pre-primed steel > Yes, some members had mentioned once having trouble sourcing wheel-abraded, > shot-blasted, pre-primed steel in the US, but this may not be the case in > every state. Also, there may be some pre-primed steels that are not so > extensively treated, I don't know. I would not recommend it if if were only > lightly primed. The advantage of the kind we can get here is that it avoids > the need for sandblasting the hull-- a messy and expen$ive job which is > often a barrier/stumbling block for many home-built boats (especially if you > are in a residential neighborhood). The zinc-rich primer available here is > tough as nails and makes a fine base for subsequent layers of epoxy. Only > the welding seams need to be ground and primed by hand, but thankfully there > aren't that many on origami style hulls. > > Alex > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Casey <jcasey@w...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:11 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one. > > > > You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also > > available in the US? > > > > Regards, > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@t...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:27 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > > > > Gary writes: > > > > > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > > > > That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. > > Anyone > > > who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, > > knows > > > how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often > > > leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be > > unlikely > > > to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind. The fact is that > people's > > > lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must > > > protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone > > > else's life. It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about > the > > > issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and > > > straightforward. > > > > > > My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone > > else > > > has already built a steel boat. That way, you have some background on > > > previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to > > > expect, since he has already rented it out before. In other words, > follow > > > in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! > > > > > > If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my > > > building site; what are your instincts about the owner of the land? > Does > > > he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land? Be > > clear > > > about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take > > into > > > account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes > to > > a > > > steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to > > jump > > > at the first opportunity. It isn't like everyone is vying for > > boatbuilding > > > space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times > to > > > see the place. Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast > > their > > > attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should > > > also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals > > > Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too > intrusive > > > or nosey-seeming. News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in > > > these parts. > > > > > > What can you do to prove ownership? Even tacked together, your boat is > > > simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry > > there > > > is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard. A > > > creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything > of > > > value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that > hunk > > of > > > steel can prove otherwise. The word of the land owner is worth nothing > in > > > this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his > chattel > > > to others in order to protect it... > > > > > > Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself > > > concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a > > > licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of > > > registering personal property. In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) > > can > > > be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's > > > measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. > > I > > > don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, > > and > > > I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever > I've > > > taken out a licence. This may or may not be true for the USA. > > > > > > The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical > > > origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she > > can > > > be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be. Getting a > > > bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of > > moving > > > it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull > > > which can take many months or sometimes years to put together. Many > > origami > > > boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much > > > complaint from neighbours. This is may be because the construction of > the > > > origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or > > it > > > goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! > > > > > > Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an > > > unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc > > rich > > > primer) steel we can get here in Canada. I'll leave it to him to tell > if > > > he likes. > > > > > > It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding > > Centre" > > > on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can > come > > > build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and > > > concerns listed above. A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy > piles > > of > > > scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for > fitting > > > out would round it out nicely. It could be a kind of boatbuilding > school, > > > in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay > Shipyard > > > School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood. The owners > > would > > > benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at > > the > > > best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice > and > > > guidance on hand as needed. A person could arrive by air and leave by > sea > > > in their own boat if they got it done on site. > > > > > > What do you think? Would the idea "float", so to speak? > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@H...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just > > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > > and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to the > > > > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > > > > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: Claude Poitras <claude.poitras@s...>
Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 12:45 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership

I would love that idea, very much. Being in Alberta, I am far from the sea.

Claude Poitras

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex & Kim Christie [mailto:origamiboats@telus.net]
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:28 AM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership

Gary writes: > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. Anyone who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, knows how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be unlikely to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind.   The fact is that people's lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone else's life.   It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and straightforward. My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone else has already built a steel boat. That way, you have some background on previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to expect, since he has already rented it out before. In other words, follow in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my building site; what are your instincts about the owner of the land? Does he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land? Be clear about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take into account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to a steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to jump at the first opportunity. It isn't like everyone is vying for boatbuilding space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to see the place. Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast their attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive or nosey-seeming. News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in these parts. What can you do to prove ownership? Even tacked together, your boat is simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry there is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard. A creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk of steel can prove otherwise. The word of the land owner is worth nothing in this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel to others in order to protect it... Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of registering personal property. In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) can be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. I don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, and I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've taken out a licence. This may or may not be true for the USA. The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she can be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be. Getting a bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of moving it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull which can take many months or sometimes years to put together. Many origami boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much complaint from neighbours. This is may be because the construction of the origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or it goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc rich primer) steel we can get here in Canada.   I'll leave it to him to tell if he likes. It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre" on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and concerns listed above. A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles of scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting out would round it out nicely. It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood. The owners would benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at the best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and guidance on hand as needed. A person could arrive by air and leave by sea in their own boat if they got it done on site. What do you think? Would the idea "float", so to speak? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@HOTMAIL.COM> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to the > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > Thanks > > Gary > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
From: Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...>
Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 1:25 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership

About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of land that is in the midst of some form of legal turmoil: I keep all my receipts during boat construction and maintenance. The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) are legally mine due to these documents that register a sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer. It has nothing to with any government boat registration bureau, as it's not yet a boat. "It's just a chunk of steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership." On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being constructed out of aluminium with the origami method? I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would like to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls. Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 804 Re: Ownership james floyd Fri 4/19/2002 806 Re: Ownership lon wells Fri 4/19/2002
From: james floyd <lonedamnwolf1@y...>
Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 12:55 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership

Hello Jim, I have been working on designing an origami aluminum cat for several months now. It is to be 40'LOA and 24 beam. I hired a Naval Architect who posts on this board to help me. I sent him my hull model and he did some analysis and it looks right to him. If all goes well I'll buy some plate later this summer and get started. It would be nice to have somebody else to bounce ideas around with. my e-mail is jamesfloyd@u... where are you located? I am in north Alabama. Have you had any luck getting the hulls thin enough? James Floyd --- Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of > land that is in the midst of some form of legal > turmoil: > > I keep all my receipts during boat construction and > maintenance. The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) > are > legally mine due to these documents that register a > sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer. It > has > nothing to with any government boat registration > bureau, as it's not yet a boat. "It's just a chunk > of > steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership." > > On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being > constructed out of aluminium with the origami > method? > I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would > like > to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls. > > Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little > time as possible in a boatyard. > > Jim. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:43 pm
Subject: Source for lumber

I did a little googling, and came up with East-West Urban Forest Products. They use trees that are cut down in cities, and make them into lumber. Got their URL from the Rainforest Coalition, so it's gotta be okay. Really low prices! Beautiful looking wood, too. They are about a 2 hour drive away from me, so not too much of a problem to make a wood run. http://www.eastwestwood.com/main_flash.htm db From: lon wells <lononriver@y...>
Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:56 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership

In the US when storing a item of great value, it would be advisable to file a ICC form. That would establish ownership and first lien rights. They are available at most legal forms stores. I managed a project where we had to store a bridge (6 million) and I filed ICC forms for ownership of the bridge. Save reciepts for tax and ownership reasons. --- Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of > land that is in the midst of some form of legal > turmoil: > > I keep all my receipts during boat construction and > maintenance. The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) > are > legally mine due to these documents that register a > sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer. It > has > nothing to with any government boat registration > bureau, as it's not yet a boat. "It's just a chunk > of > steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership." > > On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being > constructed out of aluminium with the origami > method? > I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would > like > to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls. > > Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little > time as possible in a boatyard. > > Jim. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From: Gord Schnell <gschnell@s...>
Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership

I chose to register our boat when it was just a hull and decks. No cabintops, keel, skeg etc. (maybe 2 mths. into the project). No problem. Gord greenguy2ca wrote: > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. > Just > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and > someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your > boat back > and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to > the > question of at what time, during the building process do > you register > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > Thanks > > Gary > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service.

Replies Author Date 808 Re: Ownership edward_stoneuk Sun 4/21/2002
From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: Ownership

Tools and equipment as well as a boat could possibly be seized in payment of a propery owner's debt because the bailiffs think they belong to him. In industry in the UK it is not unknown for customers who have part paid for an item of plant to have labels fixed to the said plant while it is still being worked on in the suppliers factory stating that they are the owners of it. Ted Stone From: "robertbrucejames" <robertbrucejames@y...>
Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 9:58 pm
Subject: full keel

I am thinking (triing anyway,hope noth'n breaks)of a full keel,flush deck sloop in the 25-30 foot range in the style of the 28'bristol channel cutter. Any ideas out there?????????????????

Replies Author Date 811 Re: full keel brentswain38 Wed 4/24/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:27 pm
Subject: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area

All,
I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a redeye home on Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a Brent Swain boat while I am there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to Seattle every three months or so for a consulting job. A future date would be okay too.

Thanks,

Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 812 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area brentswain38 Wed 4/24/2002 814 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area robert anthony Thu 4/25/2002 815 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area brentswain38 Fri 4/26/2002 813 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area Gary H. Lucas Thu 4/25/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:08 pm
Subject: Re: full keel

25 to 30 foot range is a bit too small for a flush decker . It would be tiny inside, or have too much freeboard, and thus be top heavy. There's no real advantage to a full length keel and many disadvantages. The aft end of a full length keel is a real inaccessible rust trap in a metal boat ,and a lot of extra weight in the stern where you need it least. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "robertbrucejames" <robertbrucejames@y...> wrote: > I am thinking (triing anyway,hope noth'n breaks)of a full > keel,flush deck sloop in the 25-30 foot range in the style of the > 28'bristol channel cutter. Any ideas out there????????????????? From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:12 pm
Subject: Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area

I'm unaware of any in the Seattle area . Dale Deforest of Deforest Construction in NE Olympia has a 36 footer and knows where there is a 31 footer in the area, called "Quarante Dos." There is a 36 footer called "Island Breeze" in the area, possibly in Port Ludlow area. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > All, > I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a redeye home on Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a Brent Swain boat while I am there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to Seattle every three months or so for a consulting job. A future date would be okay too. > > Thanks, > > Gary H. Lucas

Replies Author Date 814 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area robert anthony Thu 4/25/2002 815 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area brentswain38 Fri 4/26/2002
From: "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>
Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:04 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area

Thanks Brent,

I think I'll try to contact Dale

Gary H. Lucas

----- Original Message -----

From: brentswain38

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:12 PM

Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area

I'm unaware of any in the Seattle area . Dale Deforest of Deforest
Construction in NE Olympia has a 36 footer and knows where there is a
31 footer in the area, called "Quarante Dos." There is a 36 footer
called "Island Breeze" in the area, possibly in Port Ludlow area.
                                            Brent Swain

--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:
> All,
> I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a
redeye home on Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a
Brent Swain boat while I am there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of
his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to Seattle every three months or
so for a consulting job. A future date would be okay too.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gary H. Lucas

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From: robert anthony <robert44654@y...>
Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:18 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area

Brent, I have a question for you? I have experimented a bit more with cardboard models. Danny Greene designed a boat (multichine in steel) with a flat bottom. It has 2 chines on each hull half and no chine in the centerline, at least not below the waterline, because it is a flat bottom boat. The idea is to increase useable living space. ( You walk on the flat bottom.) I believe his design is 34.5 feet in length, and he has a flush deck. Your design easily lends itself to this addapation. ln a model I built I even droped the floor about 9 inches. The model seems to be extremely rigid. There appears to be little penalty for using 1/2 inch or thicker steel plate, except for a small increase in wetted surface area and it may save the need for stiffening the hull below the waterline. I can send picture if you request

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Replies Author Date 815 Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area brentswain38 Fri 4/26/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:45 am
Subject: Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area

If the bottom is replacing ballast, it would work out in 1/2 inch plate as long as it's flat. It's pretty hard to put any curve in 1/2 inch plate . Plate further up should be 3/16th . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > > > Brent, I have a question for you? I have experimented a bit more with cardboard models. Danny Greene designed a boat (multichine in steel) with a flat bottom. It has 2 chines on each hull half and no chine in the centerline, at least not below the waterline, because it is a flat bottom boat. The idea is to increase useable living space. ( You walk on the flat bottom.) I believe his design is 34.5 feet in length, and he has a flush deck. Your design easily lends itself to this addapation. ln a model I built I even droped the floor about 9 inches. The model seems to be extremely rigid. There appears to be little penalty for using 1/2 inch or thicker steel plate, except for a small increase in wetted surface area and it may save the need for stiffening the hull below the waterline. I can send picture if you request > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:47 am
Subject: Book Title

I'll be changing the title of my book to "ORGAMI METAL BOATBUILDING' Same book , different title. Brent Swain From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:49 am
Subject: Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook

As I embark on the adventure of building a cruising sailboat, I've been doing a bit of reading. Like my shelves are crammed with row after row of books about boats. I've just started reading the "Cruising Handbook", and I can say that even jaded ol' me is very impressed. Calder's ideas seem to fit well into the Origami style, though much of the book is taken up with compensating for the inherent weaknesses of modern fiberglass boats. I'm a total novice, so I want to be lead by the hand. Calder manages to do this without taking a "high-and-mighty" style, more just saying what he prefers and pointing out the weaknesses of other designs. Many other cruising books assume that the reader wants to instantly sail around world, sheets clamped in their teeth as they brave Cape Horn. Calder figures that you want a comfortable boat that you can travel around in, maybe not designed solely for crossing oceans. A worthwhile addition to the boat builder's library! ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

Replies Author Date 818 Re: Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook Alex & Kim Christie Sun 4/28/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:15 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook

Thanks for the mini book review, Doug. I'd like to invite anyone else who has interesting books and resources to review to go ahead and contribute. There are many resources out there, some valid, some not so valid, and it would be interesting to mull these over as a group. Myself, I am in the midst of reading Len Sheman's "Arctic Odyssey", an account of a west to east trip through the arctic northwest passage in a small Origami boat. When I am done I'll post something about it. I am also working on a critical analysis of the book "Steel Away", by Sheila Moir. It is solely about traditional steel boatbuilding, but may yield something of interest for the origami crowd. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 4:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook > As I embark on the adventure of building a cruising sailboat, I've been > doing a bit of reading. Like my shelves are crammed with row after row of > books about boats. I've just started reading the "Cruising Handbook", and I > can say that even jaded ol' me is very impressed. Calder's ideas seem to fit > well into the Origami style, though much of the book is taken up with > compensating for the inherent weaknesses of modern fiberglass boats. > > I'm a total novice, so I want to be lead by the hand. Calder manages to do > this without taking a "high-and-mighty" style, more just saying what he > prefers and pointing out the weaknesses of other designs. Many other > cruising books assume that the reader wants to instantly sail around world, > sheets clamped in their teeth as they brave Cape Horn. Calder figures that > you want a comfortable boat that you can travel around in, maybe not > designed solely for crossing oceans. > > A worthwhile addition to the boat builder's library! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:25 pm
Subject: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW!

There's been a discussion going on over on the Trawler World List about the exhaust for the diesel exiting mid-hull, underwater. I was wondering if it might be incorporated into an Origami hull design. I think that a steel pipe or enclosure would be substituted for the fiberglass pipe mentioned. Oh, and no "walk-through"! I'd be worried about back pressure when the boat is stopped; the potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe effect. An Italian manufacturer overcame this by installing additional ports out the side at water level. Reports are also that there are fuel savings when motoring, as the exhaust bubbles reduce the friction. The big advantage is a quieter motor with no muffler, and less fume/soot concentration. I'll order the magazine mentioned on Monday, and give a look at the system. Here's the original post (used with permission): > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Arild Jensen > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:38 AM > To: trawler-world-list@s... > Subject: TWL: Underwater exhaust for noise supression > > > > I can't recall now if it was this list or the live aboard list > that had a thread > going about underwater exhaust. However, today I saw an 86 footer > which has the > main exhaust in the bottom of the engine room right next to the engine. > > According to the builder this was a design evolved by their naval > architect some > years ago and which they have used on all their boats since then. > The exhaust > consist of a 12 inch diameter fibreglass tube glassed right into > the bottom just > like you do with a bow thruster tunnel. except this tube is aimed > downwards not > out the side. And no it doesn't have a seacock. The tube is > carried up to a point > above the waterline. > > The Vee cylinder configuration engines have a "y" shaped stainless steel > exhaust manifold with flexible bellows style connectors that > leads into the > turbo chargers with additional stainless steel tubing leading to > the point of the > water injection point, which in turn connects to the fibreglass tube. > The cooling water injection is a 4 inch fibreglass pipe situated > above the > waterline near the top of the galss tube. The exhaust line rises > in an arch to the > deckhead before curving downward. The arch provides a walk through for > access to the outboard sides of the engines. > > Careful shaping of the outer edge at the bottom ensures clean > water flow and > they have even measured a negative pressure at speed. this would > indicate the > flow of water past the mouth of the exhaust creates a suction > to assist in > scavenging the exhaust gasses when the engines are developing full power. > Apparently all the major engine builders have checked this > configuration and find > no problems with it in terms of back pressure. I recall someone > saying this was > a major objection to such an arrangement. > > Apart from the noise suppressions, this design is good for mid-ship engine > location since it eliminates the long exhaust tube run aft to the > transom so > common in traditional designs. Frees up a lot of space which is > now usable for > other things. It also makes for a clean, noise and fume free > swim platform. > With the engine mass centered midships you can also have finer > stern lines > since you do not need as much buoyancy right at the stern. > To see an example of this design look at the Feb 2002 issue of Show boats > which featured a vessel ccalled "Watermark". This is a sistership > to the one I was > looking at. Just some food for thought. > > regards > Arild ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

Replies Author Date 856 Re: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW brentswain38 Sat 5/18/2002
From: "gjm123smau" <g.mitch@b...>
Date: Tue Apr 30, 2002 1:45 am
Subject: Difference in price between Aluminum vs steel .

Has anyone compared the differnce with Ali to Steel. The overall cost rust proofing and on going maintance vs intial cost of Ali? Weight savings with Ali, what advantage if any ? Regards Graeme From: "richytill" <tillrc@h...>
Date: Wed May 1, 2002 6:32 pm
Subject: Lead

I have located a 4000 lb lead keel with about 300 lbs of extras. Vanvouver BC area. 1.5% antimony. Just finished sealing of the ballast tank on my project so it's no good to me at this point. If anyone can use it? rt From: "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...>
Date: Thu May 2, 2002 8:07 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lead

How much?

----- Original Message -----

From: richytill

To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:32 AM

Subject: [origamiboats] Lead

I have located a 4000 lb lead keel with about 300 lbs of extras. Vanvouver BC area. 1.5% antimony. Just finished sealing of the ballast tank on my project so it's no good to me at this point. If anyone can use it? rt

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From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Fri May 3, 2002 1:57 am
Subject: Isolation Transformer

I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's the opinion of the list? ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

Replies Author Date 826 Re: Isolation Transformer T & D Cain Sun 5/5/2002 828 Re: Isolation Transformer Doug Barnard Sun 5/5/2002 829 Re: Isolation Transformer T & D Cain Mon 5/6/2002 827 Re: Isolation Transformer Alex & Kim Christie Sun 5/5/2002
From: "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...>
Date: Fri May 3, 2002 2:34 am
Subject: Rigs

I'm interested in hearing from all the Brent boat owners who have gone for a bigger stick than the called for 46' one. Whether when sailing other Brent boats or talking to other owners have you noticed a difference and if so what? And what are the luff and foot measurements and any other relevant subject matter. Greg From: "richytill" <tillrc@h...>
Date: Sat May 4, 2002 1:07 am
Subject: engine

A new Farryman R30M (22 hp) with Hurth drive has just become available for someone who is building smaller steel boat or requires less power. The asking price seems to be around $5000. This is just North West of Vancouver BC. rt From: "T & D Cain" <thcain@o...>
Date: Sun May 5, 2002 7:03 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

Depends on the definition and the realisation in hardware.

Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous from input to output in a way which involves a metallic connection.

In other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero, then you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally with that proposition).

Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same argument as one uses resistance.

Pure galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic double wound transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux linking the primary and secondary.

At mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is heavy.

At current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient and very light (mass).

One needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator, and the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or what the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the ship side of the device.

There are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most fundamental is the double wound or conventional transformer which has no active electronics and no moving parts.

Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of the ballast.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@virtualacreage.com]
Sent: Friday, 3 May 2002 10:27
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's the opinion of the list? ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

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Replies Author Date 828 Re: Isolation Transformer Doug Barnard Sun 5/5/2002 829 Re: Isolation Transformer T & D Cain Mon 5/6/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Sun May 5, 2002 9:10 am
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

The 36 footer I just visited with fellow list member Markus simply uses zincs, as far as I know, and has had no problems at all, despite being tied up to a dock with many different kinds of boats. Hardly any wastage of the zincs over long periods of time. But I never asked if they had anything special they used in their electrical system -- I will! Oh, and keep an eye out for photos of that trip -- I'll be posting them shortly. We saw 4 Swain 36's; 3 on land, and one in the water. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer > I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic > corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's > the opinion of the list? > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sun May 5, 2002 4:48 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

Uh, can you please be specific as to products and applications? Know of any ways to set one up on the cheap? Whew! I better refill the coffee before I try to read the post again! Now where did I put those spare brain cells?....

______________________________________________
Doug Barnard
soon-to-be beginning construction
Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

-----Original Message-----
From: T & D Cain [mailto:thcain@octa4.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:03 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

Depends on the definition and the realisation in hardware.

Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous from input to output in a way which involves a metallic connection.

In other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero, then you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally with that proposition).

Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same argument as one uses resistance.

Pure galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic double wound transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux linking the primary and secondary.

At mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is heavy.

At current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient and very light (mass).

One needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator, and the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or what the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the ship side of the device.

There are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most fundamental is the double wound or conventional transformer which has no active electronics and no moving parts.

Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of the ballast.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@virtualacreage.com]
Sent: Friday, 3 May 2002 10:27
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's the opinion of the list? ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

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Replies Author Date 829 Re: Isolation Transformer T & D Cain Mon 5/6/2002
From: "T & D Cain" <thcain@o...>
Date: Mon May 6, 2002 11:34 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

Sorry Doug,

I shall do a bit of trawling on the current offerings for "Galvanic Isolators" and when that is done and time permits, I'll post again.

Essence: Keeping the metal boat from being a part of land-based power systems stray currents. Doesn't matter a DRA (dead rat's ass) if you are not connected to shore.

Terry (Electrical & Electronics-type person with steel round-bilge 40ft Adams centre cockpit boat approaching completion --- slowly!)

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@virtualacreage.com]
Sent: Monday, 6 May 2002 1:19
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

Uh, can you please be specific as to products and applications? Know of any ways to set one up on the cheap? Whew! I better refill the coffee before I try to read the post again! Now where did I put those spare brain cells?....

______________________________________________
Doug Barnard
soon-to-be beginning construction
Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

-----Original Message-----
From: T & D Cain [mailto:thcain@octa4.net.au]
Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:03 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

Depends on the definition and the realisation in hardware.

Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous from input to output in a way which involves a metallic connection.

In other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero, then you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally with that proposition).

Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same argument as one uses resistance.

Pure galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic double wound transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux linking the primary and secondary.

At mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is heavy.

At current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient and very light (mass).

One needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator, and the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or what the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the ship side of the device.

There are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most fundamental is the double wound or conventional transformer which has no active electronics and no moving parts.

Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of the ballast.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@virtualacreage.com]
Sent: Friday, 3 May 2002 10:27
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer

I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's the opinion of the list? ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 2:14 am
Subject: New photos of Swain 36

I've just posted a handful of exterior and interior photos of a nice pair of boats I saw on my trip down island, at the Maritime Society docks in Ladysmithin. They are in the photo section under "Two 36 ft Swains". I have a few more to put in that album yet (like the other boat, for instance!) from the same trip, so keep your eyes peeled.

Fellow group member Markus, who came all the way from the States to see these boats, met up with me for this trip, and we had an interesting time crawling around and looking at 3 bare hull 36 footers side by side in Yellow Point (south of Nanaimo), as well as chatting with Evan, who welded these (and many others) hulls together.

The finished boats in Ladysmith were a treat to see, with everything done pretty much according to the instructions in Brent's book as far as basic structure goes, but lots of interesting customizations as well. I like how these boats reflect their owners tastes and needs with simple changes. Check out the interior shots. All done by the owners themselves, right down to the upholstery (exterior canvas work as well). I think the only thing not made by the owners themselves on this boat were the engine (Isuzu), the ceramic bowl on the head (Jabsco), the hot water heater (Bosch), and propane stove.

Cheers,

Alex
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 6:00 pm
Subject: Compasses

In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130 Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass more in line? Any compass recommendations? Thanks! ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

Replies Author Date 832 Re: Compasses Alex & Kim Christie Tue 5/7/2002 834 Re: Compasses Stephen Wandling Tue 5/7/2002 841 Re: Compasses Alan Smith Fri 5/10/2002 843 Re: Compasses Doug Barnard Sat 5/11/2002 844 Re: Compasses weekender24 Sun 5/12/2002
From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 7:09 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Compasses

The steel boat compass is an interesting find, Doug. I am guessing that those spheres on either side of the compass work on the compass by "over-influencing" the needle beyond the influence of the steel boat. In other words, disturb the magnetic field with a known quantity before the boat's disturbance can get to the compass, and you can get some semblance of control over the beast. Can anyone else illuminate further on this? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@v...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Compasses > In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130 > > Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass > more in line? Any compass recommendations? > > Thanks! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 7:10 pm
Subject: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Hi folks, Do you have any recommendations for an economic and reliable way of sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft in a Swain 36. Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 835 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Ditmore, Stephen Tue 5/7/2002 837 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Ditmore, Stephen Tue 5/7/2002 839 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/9/2002 842 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft weekender24 Fri 5/10/2002 845 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Sun 5/12/2002 852 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Wed 5/15/2002 853 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/16/2002 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002 840 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Ditmore, Stephen Thu 5/9/2002
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 7:58 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Compasses

Alex,
You're right in that the 'balls' on either side are moved in or out to provide the least magnetic deviation as possible. This adjustment is done by 'swinging' the boat through a 360 degree rotation, while staying over a fixed geographical point on the bottom. There is a bit of an art to this. Usually, you can not eliminate all of the deviation and will then have a 'deviation card' that indicates the amount of deviation error at various points on the compass.
Magnetic deviation is initially related to the steel boat's effect on the compass. Unfortunately this is not a fixed condition and moving a tool box or depleting the canned goods during a voyage can affect the deviation and must be taken into consideration.
I recently read about a compass that changed by 10 degrees when the engine was started due to the charging cable from the engine to the batteries running adjacent to the compass. The magnetic field from this cable was the culprit.
The compass on eBay is a classic old compass of the type that I recall the US Navy used on small boats that didn't have gyro compasses. The one pictured is pretty big (about 20" wide) for a 30' boat. If you search for "steel boat compass" on Google or where ever, you will se the more modern, scaled down versions now available.
I have a wonderful old handbearing compass that I won't be able to use on my steel boat. I've forgotten the name, but it looks a bit like a 3" spare tire. You sight over the top of it and the bearing is 'projected' on the point you are taking a bearing on. It also has a tritium light for night use. I haven't yet seen anything in the way of a hand bearing compass for the steel boat. I guess one option is as the Navy did back when I was in, which was to have a fixed sighting device that gave bearings relative to the boats heading. We always used them with two people, the person doing the sighting calling "mark" when they were on target and the other noting the bearing at that moment.
Stephen
Alex & Kim Christie wrote:
The steel boat compass is an interesting find, Doug. I am guessing that
those spheres on either side of the compass work on the compass by
"over-influencing" the needle beyond the influence of the steel boat. In
other words, disturb the magnetic field with a known quantity before the
boat's disturbance can get to the compass, and you can get some semblance of
control over the beast. Can anyone else illuminate further on this?
Alex
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@virtualacreage.com>
To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:00 AM
Subject: [origamiboats] Compasses

> In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130
>
> Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass
> more in line? Any compass recommendations?
>
> Thanks!
>
> ______________________________________________
> Doug Barnard
> soon-to-be beginning construction
> Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin
>
>
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
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Replies Author Date 841 Re: Compasses Alan Smith Fri 5/10/2002 843 Re: Compasses Doug Barnard Sat 5/11/2002 844 Re: Compasses weekender24 Sun 5/12/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 9:05 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Names like Lasdrop, Duramax, and PSS shaft seal come to mind.

Here's a review

You might look for other reviews at:

http://www.proboat.com/

http://www.boatus.com/reviews/

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:10 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Hi folks, Do you have any recommendations for an economic and reliable way of sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft in a Swain 36. Regards, Ted Stone
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 9:12 pm
Subject: Taking bearings from a steel boat

Further to the thread about compasses for steel boats, here is an article on taking bearings from your boat: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/bearing.htm I intend to use my GPS for headings (and intend to carry at least two of them), but I will have to have a backup that does not use electricity. This compass, below, apparently sells for US$155, compared to US$500+ for others and looks pretty serviceable. I would like to consider mounting it inside the boat, visible through a Plexiglas panel at the back of the pilothouse. Any comments on whether this will work, vis a vis compensating for deviation? http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/NexusSteelBoatCompass100NBC-S.htm Stephen From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Tue May 7, 2002 10:02 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Here's the Powerboat Reports review:

http://www.boatus.com/reviews/power/articles/4713-1.asp

-----Original Message-----
From: Ditmore, Stephen [mailto:sditmore@nntllc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:05 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Names like Lasdrop, Duramax, and PSS shaft seal come to mind.

Here's a review

You might look for other reviews at:

http://www.proboat.com/

http://www.boatus.com/reviews/

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:10 PM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Hi folks, Do you have any recommendations for an economic and reliable way of sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft in a Swain 36. Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 839 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/9/2002 842 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft weekender24 Fri 5/10/2002 845 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Sun 5/12/2002 852 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Wed 5/15/2002 853 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/16/2002 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002
From: "T & D Cain" <thcain@o...>
Date: Wed May 8, 2002 12:57 pm
Subject: Galvanic isolators -- a primer.

Most likely some members of the group have seen this one --- a useful primer on the subject. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/galvanic/ Terry From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 8:31 am
Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Thanks for the info Stephen. Do you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less Packing? Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 842 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft weekender24 Fri 5/10/2002 845 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Sun 5/12/2002 852 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Wed 5/15/2002 853 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/16/2002 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002
From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...>
Date: Thu May 9, 2002 1:47 pm
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

I'm afraid not, Ted. Anyone else?

-----Original Message-----
From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:32 AM
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Thanks for the info Stephen. Do you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less Packing? Regards, Ted Stone
From: Alan Smith <sv_simplicity@y...>
Date: Fri May 10, 2002 6:51 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Compasses

I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses from Richie. They are self-contained and easy to swing. All you do is press a button on the front panel then do a 720 degree turn and you're done. If you add some equipment to your boat just do it again. There is no worry if your electrical system dies. They draw very little current; just milliamps. I tested the unit with a variable power supply down to about 5 volts and it still worked. That means even if your ship's battery is so dead it won't run your reading light, it will still have enough voltage and current capacity to operate the compass. They are relatively expensive but have you priced those metal boat compasses with the external compensation balls? They are not cheap either. Another advantage of flux gate compasses is that they are not affected by magnetic dip. This is the error that results when using a compass in different latitudes than the one it is balanced for. The lines of flux of Earth's magnetic field go from being parallel to the surface, at the magnetic equator, to being vertical at the magnetic poles. The compass card will tend to tilt to make itself parallel to the lines of flux. For this reason compasses have small weights on the card to keep it level on all headings. As you probable know, the magnetic poles are not lined up with the geographic poles so some cruising areas may give your compass trouble. It depends on what zone it is balanced for. Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com

Replies Author Date 843 Re: Compasses Doug Barnard Sat 5/11/2002 844 Re: Compasses weekender24 Sun 5/12/2002
From: "weekender24" <weekender24@y...>
Date: Fri May 10, 2002 8:30 pm
Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Second hand information only, but National Fisherman ran an article on moldable packing a while back. At the time I noted that it was being used on some push boats running the ICW and remember that it worked much better than expected, really sealing well even on a damaged shaft. Dave --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Thanks for the info Stephen. > > Do you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less Packing? > > Regards, > > Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 845 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Sun 5/12/2002 852 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Wed 5/15/2002 853 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/16/2002 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Sat May 11, 2002 2:33 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Compasses

> -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Smith [mailto:sv_simplicity@y...] > I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses > from Richie. I looked on the Ritchie website, but couldn't find a fluxgate compass. Sure that's the manufacturer? ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

Replies Author Date 844 Re: Compasses weekender24 Sun 5/12/2002
From: "weekender24" <weekender24@y...>
Date: Sun May 12, 2002 3:09 am
Subject: Re: Compasses

Try using Google and search under 'fluxgate compasses'. Then search within results for 'Ritchie". I found quite a few entries. Dave --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alan Smith [mailto:sv_simplicity@y...] > > > I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses > > from Richie. > > I looked on the Ritchie website, but couldn't find a fluxgate compass. Sure > that's the manufacturer? > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Sun May 12, 2002 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Thanks Dave, Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the Moldable Drip-Free packing? Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 852 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Wed 5/15/2002 853 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/16/2002 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Mon May 13, 2002 3:39 pm
Subject: No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass

I guess this is why we can't find anything on fluxgate compasses on the Ritchie site. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Fluxgate Compass Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:49:49 -0700 From: "Steve Sprole" <Steve.Sprole@r...> Reply-To: <Steve.Sprole@r...> To: "'Stephen Wandling'" <stephenw@t...> Hello, Ritchie did manufacture electronic compasses until this year. We still support the units in the field but no longer manufacture them. Sincerely, Steve Sprole V.P., Marketing RITCHIE NAVIGATION 243 Oak Street, Pembroke, MA 02359 USA 781-826-5131 (voice) 781-826-7336 (fax) Website:http://www.ritchienavigation.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Wandling [mailto:stephenw@t...] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:31 PM To: sales@r... Subject: Fluxgate Compass Does or did Ritchie sell a fluxgate compass? There has been mention of one on a steel boat discussion group, but I can't seem to find any listing for such a compass on your site. Thanks, Stephen Wandling
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Replies Author Date 847 Re: No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass Alan Smith Mon 5/13/2002
From: Alan Smith <sv_simplicity@y...>
Date: Mon May 13, 2002 5:51 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass

That's too bad. I wonder why they stopped making them. They are great units. I guess I'll hang onto mine. Anyway there are other companies that make fluxgate compasses. Most have a separate sensor and display unit. The sensor is mounted remotely at some "magnetically stable" part of the boat and the display can be put where it best suits the helmsman. Usually they allow for more than one display so you could have one down in the cabin too. Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com From: "richytill" <tillrc@h...>
Date: Mon May 13, 2002 10:48 pm
Subject: Enjoyment

My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. Came back to the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor mounts. By mid afternoon we had welded several sequences, or heat cycles on the spacers for the drive plate housing that will link the engine to the transmission and become a motor mount. By evening the housing was complete. Cost: $9.43 in nuts and bolts; salvaged metal (free); left over plate from the keel and a few welding rods with a liberal dash of patience. Result: robust, inexpensive solution--not a "cheap" fix. With a pair of dividers, a few wood wedges and a hammer, centre punch, old angle grinder, cutting torch, drill and a few files we had linked a VW Rabbit diesel motor to a Borg Warner Velvet Drive. A left over 32 tooth spline Volvo marine drive plate we were given free had spawned the idea. Now the idea has has assumed a life and a function. We filed off the corners and wire brushed the product just before sundown. Tried the fit one more time- -plate slides onto dowels like it lives there. Big smiles. For 2 tired guys : a day of enjoyment and learning. Building a metal boat can be rewarding and fun. rt

Replies Author Date 849 Re: Enjoyment Stephen Wandling Mon 5/13/2002 850 Re: Enjoyment Doug Barnard Tue 5/14/2002 851 Re: Enjoyment richytill Tue 5/14/2002 885 Re: Enjoyment T & D Cain Wed 6/5/2002
From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...>
Date: Mon May 13, 2002 10:57 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Enjoyment

Rich, thanks for the most "On Topic" posting I have seen in ages!
Stephen
richytill wrote:
My son and I arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. . . . . .
From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...>
Date: Tue May 14, 2002 2:04 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Enjoyment

> From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] > My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another > chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. Came back to > the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor > mounts. Great post! So where are you dumpster diving? You don't have to reveal your exact source, just the type of place to go looking! ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin

Replies Author Date 851 Re: Enjoyment richytill Tue 5/14/2002
From: "richytill" <tillrc@h...>
Date: Tue May 14, 2002 9:12 pm
Subject: Re: Enjoyment

In general, look for large industries or projects that can't afford to pay people to sort out left over materials. A shut down at a pulp mill or refinery is a good clue. Gravel pits, major manufacturing, re-tooling at a sawmill can result in large sectiions being turfed out. I look for new materials that are cut-offs. People will help sometimes if they know it's for a boat--set stuff aside for you. Because it is metal, it is "good as new" in most cases; often it is new and very high quality. There seems to be consensus that using stainless for various fittings and trim can help to make a better metal boat. It is ecologically more effecient to salvage and reuse than to melt down or buy new. Some people will recognise the value of this and donate their surplus. Some won't. We just look for what works. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] > > > > My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another > > chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. Came back to > > the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor > > mounts. > > Great post! So where are you dumpster diving? You don't have to reveal your > exact source, just the type of place to go looking! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed May 15, 2002 12:56 am
Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it didn't work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those dripless glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no luck at all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy gear gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you find the problem. Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing box , or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw the end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and their hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless 1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in whenever you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too hot. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Thanks Dave, > > Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the Moldable > Drip-Free packing? > > Regards, > > Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 853 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft edward_stoneuk Thu 5/16/2002 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002
From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Thu May 16, 2002 11:45 pm
Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Thanks Brent, What is your preferred stern gland set up? Custom made or off the shelf? Solid mounted or on a hose connected to the stern tube? Flax packing or a teflon mix? Regards, Ted Stone -- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it didn't > work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those dripless > glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no luck at > all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy gear > gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you find > the problem. > Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing box , > or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw the > end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of > grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and their > hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless > 1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a > convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in whenever > you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard > engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too hot. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> > wrote: > > Thanks Dave, > > > > Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the > Moldable > > Drip-Free packing? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 855 Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft brentswain38 Fri 5/17/2002
From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri May 17, 2002 3:19 am
Subject: new photos added

Group, New photos have been added to the photo album, "Two 36 footers", showing interior and exterior shots of two boats I saw on my trip to Ladysmith with group member Markus. Alex From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Fri May 17, 2002 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft

Bronze stuffing boxes are cheap in second hand stores ,and work well. You couldn't justify a custom or new one. The ones which are mounted on a hose are the best. They are a lot more forgiving when it comes to alignment. Solid mounted ones could cause metal fatigue on the shaft if the alignment were less than perfect or if rubber mounts were used. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Thanks Brent, > What is your preferred stern gland set up? Custom made or off the > shelf? Solid mounted or on a hose connected to the stern tube? Flax > packing or a teflon mix? > > Regards, > > Ted Stone > > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it didn't > > work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those > dripless > > glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no luck > at > > all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy > gear > > gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you > find > > the problem. > > Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing > box , > > or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw > the > > end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of > > grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and > their > > hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless > > 1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a > > convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in > whenever > > you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard > > engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too hot. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> > > wrote: > > > Thanks Dave, > > > > > > Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the > > Moldable > > > Drip-Free packing? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted Stone From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sat May 18, 2002 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW!

Several friends have used underwater exhaust.A 10 guage hull with flat surfaces drummed a lot . A 36 footer with a 3/16th hull and 3 cylindre engine had no problem as the exhaust went out through a slighly curved and well re-inforced part of the hull. I tried it with a single cylindre diesel and the drumming was uncacceptable.Extending the exhaust several inches beyond the hull helped a bit but not enough. I now run a dry exhaust out the transom and use a couple of elbows to take it below the waterline where a rubber flap acts as a check valve . It has a 1/4 inch hole in the upper elbow for a siphon break. It has worked well for many years.I threw away the muffler and it didn't make any significant difference to the sound level. Diesel engineers have told me that you can go down 3 feet before back pressure becomes a problem, altho going 6 inches below the surface effectivly kills any sound you would otherwise hear. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > There's been a discussion going on over on the Trawler World List about the > exhaust for the diesel exiting mid-hull, underwater. I was wondering if it > might be incorporated into an Origami hull design. I think that a steel pipe > or enclosure would be substituted for the fiberglass pipe mentioned. Oh, and > no "walk-through"! > > I'd be worried about back pressure when the boat is stopped; the > potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe effect. An Italian manufacturer overcame this by > installing additional ports out the side at water level. Reports are also > that there are fuel savings when motoring, as the exhaust bubbles reduce the > friction. The big advantage is a quieter motor with no muffler, and less > fume/soot concentration. > > I'll order the magazine mentioned on Monday, and give a look at the system. > > Here's the original post (used with permission): > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Arild Jensen > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:38 AM > > To: trawler-world-list@s... > > Subject: TWL: Underwater exhaust for noise supression > > > > > > > > I can't recall now if it was this list or the live aboard list > > that had a thread > > going about underwater exhaust. However, today I saw an 86 footer > > which has the > > main exhaust in the bottom of the engine room right next to the engine. > > > > According to the builder this was a design evolved by their naval > > architect some > > years ago and which they have used on all their boats since then. > > The exhaust > > consist of a 12 inch diameter fibreglass tube glassed right into > > the bottom just > > like you do with a bow thruster tunnel. except this tube is aimed > > downwards not > > out the side. And no it doesn't have a seacock. The tube is > > carried up to a point > > above the waterline. > > > > The Vee cylinder configuration engines have a "y" shaped stainless steel > > exhaust manifold with flexible bellows style connectors that > > leads into the > > turbo chargers with additional stainless steel tubing leading to > > the point of the > > water injection point, which in turn connects to the fibreglass tube. > > The cooling water injection is a 4 inch fibreglass pipe situated > > above the > > waterline near the top of the galss tube. The exhaust line rises > > in an arch to the > > deckhead before curving downward. The arch provides a walk through for > > access to the outboard sides of the engines. > > > > Careful shaping of the outer edge at the bottom ensures clean > > water flow and > > they have even measured a negative pressure at speed. this would > > indicate the > > flow of water past the mouth of the exhaust creates a suction > > to assist in > > scavenging the exhaust gasses when the engines are developing full power. > > Apparently all the major engine builders have checked this > > configuration and find > > no problems with it in terms of back pressure. I recall someone > > saying this was > > a major objection to such an arrangement. > > > > Apart from the noise suppressions, this design is good for mid-ship engine > > location since it eliminates the long exhaust tube run aft to the > > transom so > > common in traditional designs. Frees up a lot of space which is > > now usable for > > other things. It also makes for a clean, noise and fume free > > swim platform. > > With the engine mass centered midships you can also have finer > > stern lines > > since you do not need as much buoyancy right at the stern. > > To see an example of this design look at the Feb 2002 issue of Show boats > > which featured a vessel ccalled "Watermark". This is a sistership > > to the one I was > > looking at. Just some food for thought. > > > > regards > > Arild > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:02 am
Subject: much to say, some late

As someone who is very interested in origami steel boats, having bought boat plans, presently scrounging and accumulating materials, buying more tools, learning from other owners, and learning basic welding, it is very enjoyable to partake of the information flow on this site. Thank you to all contributors; however, some of you are so knowledgeable in a variety of areas that it is a bit intimidating to a "jack of all trades, and master of none" type of guy like myself! Carol and I even enjoy the personal information that is shared, like "We are begining construction on our Brent Swain 40 footer!" Good stuff this! I've been wanting to post some "thank you's" for a couple of months, but do not want to make one long post (sorry Alex). Instead, I would like to make a few more smaller posts. John Holdal

Replies Author Date 868 Re: much to say, some late Alex & Kim Christie Fri 5/24/2002
From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:16 am
Subject: Thank you ----present owners on Vancouver Island

About two months ago, Carol and I made a trip to Van. Is. We saw Brent Swain designed boats, mostly just the outsides, in Ladysmith, Nanaimo and area, Comox, and Courtenay. The owners that we did see were all very pleasant and helpfull ----- Thank you so much for your time and help. For all of the boat owners who heard from their dock neighbours that some people were looking at their boats --- and taking lots of pictures ---- thank you for adding to our enjoyment, and forgive our little liberty of taking all those pictures. ((A matter of respect -----please don't climb aboard a boat unless one's invited ---- even though you may be visiting "by invitation" elsewhere on the dock.)) John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:33 am
Subject: congratulations to Daryl & Marlene (not finished yet!)

((Their boat has been launched, it runs under power, but the interior and rigging is not finished)) Congratulations on the launching of your boat!......yes Daryl, you did say "It's not finished." but most people would be elated to be at that stage. Again, "Congratulations", and it was enjoyable to see it "in the water", after having seen it on land. Again, thank you for your hospitality when Carol and I visited two months ago. The fact that you've sailed these waters, as well as sailing to Fiji, then chose this type of boat to build ---- it is very reassuring to novices such as Caro and I. Thank you. John Holdal ((Daryl was doing some welding on the very first Swain boat built by Evan Schaler! Once refurbished, the present owner plans to sail to Hawaii.)) From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:51 am
Subject: congratulations Winston & Carol - - - -and thank you

After 30 years of sailing, a circumnavigation of the world, a trip through the Northwest passage (in book: Arctic Odyssey by Glen Sherman) and having owned eight boats (or is it nine now?), maybe the launch of a new boat isn't quite the event of years past ----but, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE LAUNCHING OF THE "DOVE IV". Carol And I had the good fortune to see it again (and take more picture!) of it tied to the dock. It is beatiful! I can imagine it will be quite a sight, sailing with all sails out. I was pleased to learn that the boat Carol and I have chosen would be the same basic boat, other than your modifications to the pilot house and standing rigging. Your statement that it was a good hull, and your choice of it, settled alot of questions in our mind. Also, your help on your daughter's steel boat confirmed it -----Yes, Carol and I were on the right track. Thanks Winston. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 8:04 am
Subject: late, but thank you Brent

On our prior trip (two months ago) to Vancouver Island, Carol and I met you to pick up some plans for your 36 foot boat design. Thank you for your patience in answering all of our questions, as well as showing us a few boats ---finished and unfinished. It was a delight! That trip was beyond our expectations. Thanks Brent. Other owners of boats built to your designs have been immensely helpful. We'll be proud to have a "Swain boat". The simplicity of some things you designed is specially confidence building. "Simple" does not break down, or cause problems, as much ---relative to "complicated". John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 8:12 am
Subject: Thank you, Jean & Mark

On both of our trips to the island, you have been very gracious, patient, helpful, and instructive. Your boat is a delight to look at; so much so that Carol believes that you have equity value in those good looks ----and could sell it for absolute top dollar. You should be very proud of your boat and your efforts. May you have years of excellent sailing. Thank you for sharing with us. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 8:44 am
Subject: Thank you - - - Denise & Mike Loucks

Thank you for inviting us into your home to "talk boats". As the owners of a 36 foot boat (of which we would like to build a sister ship), your comments and suggestions were much appreciated. I have my heart set on a twin keel, so I was pleasantly surprised when you supported me on this, specially since the "Shinola" has a fin keel. You mentioned that the "Shinola" (Swain 36 footer) was fast and responsive, making it impossible for your friends in their _______u to catch up, on a Mexican trip. As well, with this rudder it allowed for very sharp turning when needed in harbours. Your confidence in this boat, generally, was very good to hear. Thanks for letting Jesse show us your boat. Carol & John Holdal ((The Loucks are owners of the "Shinola", which is one of the boats pictured on the back page of Brent Swain's book. ---2 pictures in center of page. Long time water people, they went on a three year cruise with one of their stops being New Zealand ----having to return to Canada so their son Jesse could attend high school(now grown and welding boats!) After a few years back on land they still miss the sea. We ran out of time, so have no idea "if" or "when" they may go again ----their hearts are yearning!)) From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 9:45 am
Subject: welding and welders

Thank you Steve, Gary, and others for your earlier discussions about welding. It was very informative. ((Now I know ---also corect)) Now that I'm into my introductory welding course at B.C. Institute of Technology, all of those discussions, the course, discussions with the instructors, and the talks with welders like Evan and Jessehave helped clarify my needs and the solutions. My intention was to get someone to weld my hull. I will be purchasing a "buzz box". (for arc welding by stick) Does it look like I have to talk to five or six people before doing anything new???? Maybe!!!! (Yes Brent, you were also correct in your book!) At the beginning, my biggest objective was to understand more about welding to allow better communication with anyone welding on my boat."I want to know what a good weld looks like." was my statement often. Now I understand that a good looking weld does not ensure proper metal fusion. There may be no depth to the weld. Weld testing techniques have shown me that "looks can be deceiving". ( My understanding is that MIG welders can help a poorer welder make better looking welds. ----stated earlier, in diferent words, by group members.) YOU JUST HAVE TO GET A GOOD WELDER! Simple? Luckily, we have very good, experienced welders available. Evan Schaler is well known for having built these boats for years. (see photos in "files" and his email address can be obtained from the member list --- evanmoonjunk, etc.) As a member of this group, he is easily reached. New to alot of us, Jesse Loucks, who sailed with his parents to New Zealand, for a three year cruise, on their 36 foot, Swain, fin keel boat. (Denise & Mike Loucks own the "Shinola". Gee, Jesse --you were "forced" to sail to New Zealand --some people are so "deprived"!) Jesse, now 22, has his "B and C level welding tickets", and is now working on his "A level welding ticket". He has assisted Brent Swain and welded on his own, so now has a few welded boats under his belt. Jesse is thinking of joining our group in the near future, but for now may be contacted at: P.O. Box 1780, Ladysmith, B.C., V9G 1B3 ----Canada, of course. My understanding is that both Evan and Jesse will weld your boat on site -----which for me would be the Fraser Valley. Thanks fellows!! Oh yes, contact them directly if you have any questions for either of them. Should you wish an Okanagan builder, or want to transport a hull, Confidence Custom Boat will weld the hull in Kelowna.( This company was discussed in earlier posts by other members.) Oh!!! Jesse....is he a "sailing welder" or a "welding sailor"? My kids don't think my humour is getting better either!!! Anyone else? There are other very knowledgeable people in our group. Do you build for others? From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 9:55 am
Subject: different prices for metals!

Gary, You asked for the price of lead earlier, and I gave you new ingot price of $0.63 per pound after taxes, and about 50 -55 cents for scrap lead. Those were Vancouver prices. On this last trip to Vancouver Island, I found that everyone there was buying scrap stainless steel and scrap aluminum at about 50% of Vancouver prices! OUCH!!! Maybe someone from Vancouver Island (Gary's boat is being built there) can get you the Island price of lead. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 10:07 am
Subject: sad story --- 52 foot steel Robertson sail boat

Some coworkers of mine, husband and wife, decided to do some renovations to their 52 foot steel Robertson sailboat that they bought about 12 years ago (not new). Once they started ripping the inside out they discovered that there was nothing between the insulation and the steel hull. Condensation resulted, along with rust. Now their "renovation" is down to bare hull ---so they are doing the painting that should have been done when it was built. Somebody's short cut cost them. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 11:49 am
Subject: are there any other launches?--we love to hear about successes

Does anyone else know of recent steel origami boat launches? Do more than me like to hear such things? It's good for the soul. ..... Really!!!!! repetitive --John Holdal (ok- I'll shut up for awhile......BYE)))))))) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Fri May 24, 2002 4:52 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] much to say, some late

Thanks John, for your many thanks. I have met many of the same Swain hull owners while visiting their boats and have always been treated just as nicely. Seems to be a hallmark of the owners of these boats. I've developed a saying which I think typifies the process of building these boats and underlies their philosophy: "Every good Swain boat starts with a good scrounge!" Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: kayaker_john <jcholdal@s...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] much to say, some late > As someone who is very interested in origami steel boats, having > bought boat plans, presently scrounging and accumulating materials, > buying more tools, learning from other owners, and learning basic > welding, it is very enjoyable to partake of the information flow on > this site. Thank you to all contributors; however, some of you are > so knowledgeable in a variety of areas that it is a bit intimidating > to a "jack of all trades, and master of none" type of guy like > myself! Carol and I even enjoy the personal information that is > shared, like "We are begining construction on our Brent Swain 40 > footer!" Good stuff this! I've been wanting to post some "thank > you's" for a couple of months, but do not want to make one long post > (sorry Alex). Instead, I would like to make a few more smaller posts. > John Holdal > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Sat May 25, 2002 7:36 pm
Subject: welding

Brent, Are the longitudinals stitch welded? If so, what spacing do you recommend? Is the stem bar welded in after the two hull halves are welded together, which must be a fairly tricky job, or is it sandwiched between the two semi hulls? Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 870 Re: welding brentswain38 Sun 5/26/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Sun May 26, 2002 12:08 am
Subject: Re: welding

Ted The longitudinals are stitch welded with a two inch weld every 6 inches on alternating sides of the stringer.Where the ends of the bottom stringer meet the transverse bottom seam it's best to weld them on the inside of the angle only so the short piece you weld in to join the two stringer ends together don't hang up on the welds. The stem bar is welded in after the two halves are welded together, all inside welding of the stem has been done and after the bottom of the anchorwell is in. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Brent, > > Are the longitudinals stitch welded? If so, what spacing do you > recommend? > > Is the stem bar welded in after the two hull halves are welded > together, which must be a fairly tricky job, or is it sandwiched > between the two semi hulls? > > Regards, > > Ted Stone From: "T & D Cain" <thcain@o...>
Date: Sun May 26, 2002 3:32 am
Subject: Engine noise and treatments: Doug Barnard's address.

1. For those looking for information on the sources and controls and/or fixes for noise/vibration, the English monthly --- Practical Boat Owner --- issues Feb. Mar. and April 2002 have a useful series by James Grazebrook ( Halyard Marine --- yes, they sell relevant products ). No real conflict of interest by the way, the articles have a reasonably sound (no pun intended) basis and feature competitive products without bias. 2. Doug Barnard, I have had an e-mail returned from a direct item to your mailbox. I shall try again today and perhaps with indulgence from the group moderator, if direct doesn't work some photos of our Adams40 could be posted here. As indicated in the item for Doug., many of the stainless fittings for this boat have been TIG or MIG or stick welded by myself and some may be of interest to other steel boat constructors. Terry From: kwing175 <kwing175@e...>
Date: Mon May 27, 2002 5:31 pm
Subject: Swain Dinghy Questions

First let me say that Brent's book has really tweak my interest in the Origami boat building approach. Not only from the lay out point of view but, also from the "do it yourself" approach. Thanks to all that make this group so interesting. I have been playing around with the dinghy drawing that Brent provides in his book. I scaled up the plans to make a model out of poster board using hot melt glue as my "welding" process. The approach works pretty well. To quell my curiosity my intent is to build a dinghy starting with a ten foot aluminum panel. I have a welder friend that will do the cutting and welding so that is not an issue for me. But, he is not a boat builder so I better know and understand the process before we get started. The book does not contain much text about actually constructing the dinghy. I have come across a few questions in my modeling efforts. I am hoping that the group can educate me. Questions: 1. My efforts yield a hull shape the has an unusually steep sheer and excessive rocker. Is this because I am using poster board or am I missing something in technique? To obtain the sheer/rocker that appears reasonable I would have to insert quite a large wedge shape into the vertical "weld" on the sides. What am I missing? 2. Amidship the drawing has an athwartship dashed line. The line is labeled seam. Does this imply that the dinghy should be constructed in two pieces? First weld the origami seams and then connect the fore and aft portions of the hull. 3. Does the order in which the panels are "welded" make a difference in how the vessel takes it shape? Centerline "welds", bow and stern first? Then weld the chines. Lastly the bring the vertical side "welds" together. Maybe vice versa? 4. Scaling up the drawing in the book results in the forward chine "tab" narrower than the after chine "tab" (maybe vice versa). Is this a design function? My guess it results from printing and scaling up from such a small drawing. Should the tabs have the same width along the vertical "weld"? 5. The text does not address the transom shape or transom angle. I used a semi-circle with a circumference equal to the width of the plate ends. I glued it in vertically. Am I on the right path? Is there a better approach? On another topic: Are there any Origami and/or twin keel boats being built in the Houston, TX area? Or in the Gulf Coast area? Regards, Keith Wingate Maritime Resource Services P: 281-554-5549 M: 713-202-8674 kwing175@e...

Replies Author Date 873 Re: Swain Dinghy Questions brentswain38 Mon 5/27/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Mon May 27, 2002 8:15 pm
Subject: Re: Swain Dinghy Questions

The amount of rocker you have with any origami boat is directly relative to the amount of flare in the topsides . Pull the topsides together and reduce their flare and the rocker and sheer will flatten. The reason for the midships seam is that aluminium isn't available in the widths it would take to get adequate beam in a dinghy. I used a 5 by 8 foot sheet for mine and had to weld pieces on to get the width. This involved a lot more seam that would have been the case if I had just welded two 4 foot wide sheets together accross the bottom, altho it took less material. I'd weld the complete flat dinghy plate together before trying to pull it into a dinghy.Welding the sides together before pulling the bow and stern together would be easier.The transom can be made more or less whatever shape you want , given approximatly the right width and depth.Shallower sides would make it easier to pull together, but slightly less stable.I'd probably go for a wider transom to improve stability if I were building mine again. I'm not sure what you mean by "Tabs". The shape is quite forgiving . Whatever shape you come up with for your cardboard model is what you'll get in aluminium. I sold a set of plans to a guy in Dallas several years ago. I don't remember his name . One of my 36 footers was trucked to Texas several years ago. It belonged to Jim Perkins, a ham operator who deals in ham radios, etc. Perhaps the other Texas hams will know where to find him. If you find him tell him to send me an e-mail. Those are the only boats of my design I know of in the Texas area. One of my 36 footers was pulled together in Chauvin Loisianna several years ago. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., kwing175 <kwing175@e...> wrote: > First let me say that Brent's book has really tweak my interest in the > Origami boat building approach. Not only from the lay out point of view > but, also from the "do it yourself" approach. > > Thanks to all that make this group so interesting. > > I have been playing around with the dinghy drawing that Brent provides in > his book. I scaled up the plans to make a model out of poster board using > hot melt glue as my "welding" process. The approach works pretty well. > > To quell my curiosity my intent is to build a dinghy starting with a ten > foot aluminum panel. I have a welder friend that will do the cutting and > welding so that is not an issue for me. But, he is not a boat builder so I > better know and understand the process before we get started. > > The book does not contain much text about actually constructing the dinghy. > I have come across a few questions in my modeling efforts. I am hoping > that the group can educate me. > > Questions: > > 1. My efforts yield a hull shape the has an unusually steep sheer and > excessive rocker. Is this because I am using poster board or am I missing > something in technique? To obtain the sheer/rocker that appears reasonable > I would have to insert quite a large wedge shape into the vertical "weld" > on the sides. What am I missing? > > 2. Amidship the drawing has an athwartship dashed line. The line is > labeled seam. Does this imply that the dinghy should be constructed in two > pieces? First weld the origami seams and then connect the fore and aft > portions of the hull. > > 3. Does the order in which the panels are "welded" make a difference in > how the vessel takes it shape? Centerline "welds", bow and stern first? > Then weld the chines. Lastly the bring the vertical side "welds" together. > Maybe vice versa? > > 4. Scaling up the drawing in the book results in the forward chine "tab" > narrower than the after chine "tab" (maybe vice versa). Is this a design > function? My guess it results from printing and scaling up from such a > small drawing. Should the tabs have the same width along the vertical > "weld"? > > 5. The text does not address the transom shape or transom angle. I used > a semi-circle with a circumference equal to the width of the plate ends. I > glued it in vertically. Am I on the right path? Is there a better > approach? > > > On another topic: Are there any Origami and/or twin keel boats being built > in the Houston, TX area? Or in the Gulf Coast area? > > Regards, > Keith Wingate > Maritime Resource Services > > P: 281-554-5549 > M: 713-202-8674 > kwing175@e... From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Mon May 27, 2002 9:30 pm
Subject: Registration

Just phoned the feds about registering 36' pilot house being built. I got voice mail requesting my name and phone so they could send me a "compliance plate" application, "capacity plate application" and "proof of competency". The last one made me chuckle coming from a civil servant. I have not heard of these applications before except the "boating test". If anyone has experience with this, please reply. Regards.... Gary

Replies Author Date 876 Re: Registration brentswain38 Tue 5/28/2002
From: "Newbarndesign" <newbarndesign@y...>
Date: Tue May 28, 2002 2:15 pm
Subject: Origami Motor Sailer

I am wondering about using the origami design to build a Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have found a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I am looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins and two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like that with this type of hull? Great site, love the idea.

Replies Author Date 877 Re: Origami Motor Sailer brentswain38 Tue 5/28/2002 886 Re: Origami Motor Sailer Newbarndesign Wed 6/5/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue May 28, 2002 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: Registration

The capacity plate is for little outboard fizzboats , saying how many people it can hold. You can see them on the inside of the transom of fizzies.The "Proof of Competency is for children. Us old farts apparently don't need it until the year 2009. The law just says you must have proof of competency. One could argue that for a court to state that someone who has sat down in a classroom and answered a few questions on a test without ever having set foot on a boat has more proof of competency than someone who has crossed oceans , would threaten to bring the administration of justice into serious disrepute .I'm not sure they even define proof of competency. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > Just phoned the feds about registering 36' pilot house being built. > I got voice mail requesting my name and phone so they could send me > a "compliance plate" application, "capacity plate application" > and "proof of competency". The last one made me chuckle coming from > a civil servant. I have not heard of these applications before > except the "boating test". If anyone has experience with this, > please reply. > > Regards.... Gary From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Tue May 28, 2002 7:52 pm
Subject: Re: Origami Motor Sailer

Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved surfaces are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little fore and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice . Determine the plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out . Whatever you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" <newbarndesign@y...> wrote: > I am wondering about using the origami design to build a > Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have found > a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I am > looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins and > two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like that > with this type of hull? > > Great site, love the idea.

Replies Author Date 886 Re: Origami Motor Sailer Newbarndesign Wed 6/5/2002
From: "islands502000" <islands49@e...>
Date: Tue May 28, 2002 8:17 pm
Subject: Steel cutting

Frist I wish to thank all of the members of this group, and especialy the founder, I am new, and located this site yesterday. My question is thus, does anyone know a place that I can have steel cut I am looking for a plasma, or water jet service in So. Calif. also can anyone recomend a site that I can have my plans done to give me a CNC cutting file or disk??? Thank you all John From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Wed May 29, 2002 9:54 pm
Subject: Anchor winch

Brent, With regard to the anchor winch in your book: Is there a brake on it to control paying out and to stop the drum over running when the anchor is being lowered? Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 880 Re: Anchor winch brentswain38 Thu 5/30/2002
From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Thu May 30, 2002 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: Anchor winch

Ted I've never felt the need for a brake on the anchorwinch. Just put your foot against the side of the drum to stop it from overriding. When you want to stop the boat, drop the handle pawl.It's a good idea to weld on a bit of stainless plate to stop the pawl and handle from chipping the deck paint to bare steel, or put some kind of stops on the winch frame . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Brent, > > With regard to the anchor winch in your book: Is there a brake on it > to control paying out and to stop the drum over running when the > anchor is being lowered? > > Regards, > > Ted Stone From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Thu May 30, 2002 11:38 pm
Subject: longitudinals

Brent, Thanks for the winch info. Another question: The bill of materials calls for 10 angles for the hull longitudinals. How are they laid out? I can see 4 a side in the drawings and photos. I assume they are positioned with their midpoint perpendicular to the hull midpoint. There seem to be two angles left over. Regards, Ted Stone

Replies Author Date 884 Re: longitudinals brentswain38 Wed 6/5/2002
From: "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>
Date: Fri May 31, 2002 8:16 pm
Subject: Steel Cutting

John, I don't know Southern California so I would try a directory such as yellow pages. They are on the web. Then once you have a few names phone and enquire. If they cannot help you, perhaps because their equipment is too small for the plate size you want, ask them if they know of any body who can. Invariably they will try to be helpful, you may be a future customer. If you try this a few times and get pointed to the same place you will then know that the companies they recommend are well thought of in the business. I often do this when I don't know of any suppliers. If possible I go for three prices as they can vary enormously. Some of the companies may have CAD draftsfolk who can take your paper plans and put them on a disk for use by the cutting machine. If not ask if they know of someone who can. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Ted Stone From: "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...>
Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 1:41 am
Subject: Messages

Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages in a book format ... example pdf format. Gary From: "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 3:00 am
Subject: Re: longitudinals

Ted I used to put in three longitudinals on each side bottom plate and two on each side topside plate,roughly equally spaced. Since I started going for integral tanks on the centreline, I've been cutting the bottom longitudinal in half and putting each half in front of and behind the tank ends, as well as using some of it for other uses such as stffning the sides of the wheelhouse below the windows .They are more or less equally spaced, dividing the distance from the chine to the centreline and chine to deck equally. Their exact spacing isn't critical as all they do is increrase the overall stiffness of the plate. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...> wrote: > Brent, > > Thanks for the winch info. > > Another question: > > The bill of materials calls for 10 angles for the hull longitudinals. > How are they laid out? I can see 4 a side in the drawings and > photos. I assume they are positioned with their midpoint > perpendicular to the hull midpoint. There seem to be two angles left > over. > > Regards, > > Ted Stone From: "T & D Cain" <thcain@o...>
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 11:29 am
Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Enjoyment

RT,

The Rabbit got my attention.

The attached photos show a neat raw water pump arrangement and the ass end has an aquadrive CV insert to fit in the space.

The shaft is offset to port of the centreline and those who might like to guess at why are welcome to reply -- think about the fabrication issues and about "P effect" for an inclined prop in a horizontal stream for a right-hand rotation prop.

If you want more info drop me a mail.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 14 May 2002 7:18
To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [origamiboats] Enjoyment

My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. Came back to the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor mounts. By mid afternoon we had welded several sequences, or heat cycles on the spacers for the drive plate housing that will link the engine to the transmission and become a motor mount. By evening the housing was complete. Cost: $9.43 in nuts and bolts; salvaged metal (free); left over plate from the keel and a few welding rods with a liberal dash of patience. Result: robust, inexpensive solution--not a "cheap" fix. With a pair of dividers, a few wood wedges and a hammer, centre punch, old angle grinder, cutting torch, drill and a few files we had linked a VW Rabbit diesel motor to a Borg Warner Velvet Drive. A left over 32 tooth spline Volvo marine drive plate we were given free had spawned the idea. Now the idea has has assumed a life and a function. We filed off the corners and wire brushed the product just before sundown. Tried the fit one more time- -plate slides onto dowels like it lives there. Big smiles. For 2 tired guys : a day of enjoyment and learning. Building a metal boat can be rewarding and fun. rt

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From: "Newbarndesign" <newbarndesign@y...>
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: Origami Motor Sailer

I will give it a shot, what is the largest hull that would be possible with this design. I was hoping to get around 38' to 44', based on interior layouts of similar designs. Thanks Phil --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved surfaces > are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little fore > and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice . Determine the > plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out . Whatever > you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" < newbarndesign@y...> wrote: > > I am wondering about using the origami design to build a > > Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have found > > a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I am > > looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins and > > two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like that > > with this type of hull? > > > > Great site, love the idea. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 9:46 pm
Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Indexing of Messages

> Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages > in a book format ... example pdf format. > > > Gary So far there is no function which could do this short of taking every message and cutting and pasting into one document. The only thing possible on Yahoo is to search the archived messages from the group's home page, and this does work after a fashion (except no browse function). I am, however, working on setting up a real website independent of this one (it will likely be called origamiboats.com), and the message archiving system would be much more user-friendly, out of the control of Yahoo and into my hands. There is definitely lots of useful information buried in the old messages, and certainly worth putting into some kind of indexed format. Thanks for the idea --- I'll see what I can do. Alex

Replies Author Date 888 Re: Indexing of Messages Richard Routh Thu 6/6/2002