1|1|2000-02-06 00:20:50|Alex Christie|Welcome to Origami Boats|Hi,
 
 Welcome to Origami Boats web forum. This is a place for discussion about all aspects of frameless steel sailboats, also known as "folded steel" yachts. Construction, performance, maintenance, cruising anecdotes, rig choices, anything at all...
 
 There are many of these fine steel boats sailing around, especially on the west coast of Canada, and it is hoped that this forum will provide an interesting meeting place for owners and potential owner-builders.
 
 A "vault" is provided with this forum so that members can upload images and documents for others to view. Please do not send photos and attachments to the list, but rather put them in the vault. From my experience on the Bolger e-group, it keeps everything neat and tidy on the list!
 
 Enjoy!
 
 your friendly moderator,
 
 Alex Christie|
2|2|2001-03-15 03:15:47|ravencoast@telus.net|New photos upload to files|Dear Origamiboats members,  I've uploaded some new files to the group here, of two Swain boats  located in Comox harbour.  Alex Christie|
3|3|2001-04-08 17:12:02|cdasilva@iname.com|Nice pictures..|I always wondered how you build a boat using origami methods. That,  the pictures, certainly looked fascinating. I bet it is very fast to  build such a boat.   Does anybody knows what are the size limits for such a boat. I  imagine as the boat gets bigger the hull thickness increases and  therefore it becomes harder to form (bend) the hull.  cheers cid|
4|4|2001-04-08 23:58:54|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: steel boats  Nice pictures..|Hi Cid, and welcome to the group.  I think the biggest boat done in this method was 50' but that was apparently not an easy task. The ideal sizes have been pretty much established with the 31' and 36' designs. With those hulls, the pieces are quite easy to move around before welding.  The designer, Brent Swain could probably answer this one best, and perhaps he can speak to the group on this when I get ahold of him to let him know about the group.  Stay tuned for more info!  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdasilva@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 2:11 PM Subject: steel boats yachts boat yacht sailboat sailboats Nice pictures..   > I always wondered how you build a boat using origami methods. That, > the pictures, certainly looked fascinating. I bet it is very fast to > build such a boat. > > Does anybody knows what are the size limits for such a boat. I > imagine as the boat gets bigger the hull thickness increases and > therefore it becomes harder to form (bend) the hull. > > cheers > cid > |
5|5|2001-04-09 19:37:50|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|(no subject)|Greetings Swain Fans,     It's good to see this group up and running, thanks Alex.      I know there are a fair number of Swain boats on the B.C. coast and everyone I've talked to extols their virtue.      While I understand it's not possible to give a pat answer, as every boat is finished to a different degree of outfitting and quality of finish, does anyone out there who has finished their own 36 footer have a figure that can be used as a rough indication of cost, in the water, with basic sails and outfitting.       There is a beautiful 36 footer in Genoa Bay that has some nice stainless work and ideas on deck, that is well worth a look if anyone is in the area. I intend to 'phone the owner next time I'm up there to pick his brains.     Anyone else on the island started building yet?          Cheers, Richard|
6|6|2001-04-11 20:15:30|Paul Liebenberg|Re: steel boats yachts boat yacht sailboat sailboats  (unknown)|          Hi Rich, I know of 4 36's  curruntly being  built on Van Island (quite likely there are more). One in Nanaimo (gene  Wunderlin), One in Heriot bay, one in Duncan and my own in Campbell River. Drop  by anytime.          Paul  Liebenberg     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    sunyataspirit@...    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 09, 2001 4:37  PM   <b>Subject:</b> steel boats yachts boat yacht    sailboat sailboats (unknown)   Greetings Swain Fans,     It's good to    see this group up and running, thanks Alex.      I    know there are a fair number of Swain boats on the B.C. coast and everyone    I've talked to extols their virtue.      While I    understand it's not possible to give a pat answer, as every boat is finished    to a different degree of outfitting and quality of finish, does anyone out    there who has finished their own 36 footer have a figure that can be used as a    rough indication of cost, in the water, with basic sails and    outfitting.       There is a beautiful 36 footer    in Genoa Bay that has some nice stainless work and ideas on deck, that is well    worth a look if anyone is in the area. I intend to 'phone the owner next time    I'm up there to pick his brains.     Anyone else on the    island started building    yet?          Cheers,    RichardTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@...To    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
7|7|2001-04-14 23:31:53|pan@boatbuilding.com|great group|I'm very interested in the folded steel concept. I would like to see  something for plywood.  Anything around yet? Les|
8|8|2001-04-14 23:38:09|pan@boatbuilding.com|questions|How hard is it to clean up the weld areas?  Do you have to be a good  enough welder that they grind flush to the plate or do you do any  filling?  How is the metal finished, primers/paint etc.?  Is there a  website to the designer? Thanks, Les|
9|8|2001-04-16 14:09:53|Alex Christie|Re: questions|Hi Les,  I'm hoping that some of the current builders will join in, but I'll  take a stab at your questions from my own perspective of  someone who has noodled around looking at the boats in build.  I am actually trained in wooden boat building, but have been  secretly sniffing around at the concept of steel boatbuilding for  quite awhile!  The welding I have seen on the boats in my area has in most  cases only needed grinding flush to the plate. If filling is needed,  then not enough metal has been put into the joint in the joint in  the first place, and it is time to re-examine the welding technique,  rods used, or settings used on the welder.  That is, the weld  should be "right" to begine with. The slag has to be removed  entirely, of course, and if some is left in a pocket it would be a  target for rust.  Metal finishing: what I remember from Brent telling me was to  use steel that is wheel-abraded and primed already. This saves  you time and expense from having to sandblast and prime. Then  coal-tar epoxy is used (I don't know how many layers), followed  by regular enamel.    There is a lot more detailed in Brent's handbook on the  technique, which unfortunately I don't have on hand as I am  posting this from another location while on holidays. Brent can  be reached at brentswain38@... and the book can be  ordered from him directly, I believe.  The book has a wealth of  information and tips for any steel boatbuilding project, even if not  using the origami technique for the hull itself.  I know of no website for the designer at this stage, though  www.boatbuilding.ws shows boats built to his design by a  company in BC.  There are several other companies or designers using Brent's  technique (not always with any recognition of him, I'll add quietly).  One is Sailtech in Vancouver, and the other is Designer Patrick  Bray, also in Vancouver, I think located at  http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca  with the "Aisha" 42 footer  being the only example. Or put those names in any search  engine and they should come up.    www.tanton.com also has  several designs using the technique, though not much is said  about the technique itself on Tanton's website.  Hope that is of some help, and if you are lucky, someone else  will pipe in here and fill in the (likely many) gaps I have left in my  response.  Alex         --- In origamiboats@y..., pan@b... wrote: > How hard is it to clean up the weld areas?  Do you have to be a  good  > enough welder that they grind flush to the plate or do you do  any  > filling?  How is the metal finished, primers/paint etc.?  Is there  a  > website to the designer? > Thanks, Les |
10|10|2001-04-17 06:28:32|Shelley & Foster Price|Re: steel boats yachts boat yacht sailboat sailboats  Re: questions|Hello Guys  As I recall there was a guy Grahamme Shannon doing some of these boats too, I think he was acting as designer to Sailtech, as mentioned by Alex.  See http://www.aviadesign.com/  He did have a twin keel "origami" boat pictured on his site at one time.  I also read that he developed a method of computor lofting to suit the "origami" style and claimed that it could be used for many existing designs.  Regards - Foster   ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie <alex_christie@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 6:09 AM Subject: steel boats yachts boat yacht sailboat sailboats Re: questions   > Hi Les, > > I'm hoping that some of the current builders will join in, but I'll > take a stab at your questions from my own perspective of > someone who has noodled around looking at the boats in build. > I am actually trained in wooden boat building, but have been > secretly sniffing around at the concept of steel boatbuilding for > quite awhile! > > The welding I have seen on the boats in my area has in most > cases only needed grinding flush to the plate. If filling is needed, > then not enough metal has been put into the joint in the joint in > the first place, and it is time to re-examine the welding technique, > rods used, or settings used on the welder.  That is, the weld > should be "right" to begine with. The slag has to be removed > entirely, of course, and if some is left in a pocket it would be a > target for rust. > > Metal finishing: what I remember from Brent telling me was to > use steel that is wheel-abraded and primed already. This saves > you time and expense from having to sandblast and prime. Then > coal-tar epoxy is used (I don't know how many layers), followed > by regular enamel. > > There is a lot more detailed in Brent's handbook on the > technique, which unfortunately I don't have on hand as I am > posting this from another location while on holidays. Brent can > be reached at brentswain38@... and the book can be > ordered from him directly, I believe.  The book has a wealth of > information and tips for any steel boatbuilding project, even if not > using the origami technique for the hull itself. > > I know of no website for the designer at this stage, though > www.boatbuilding.ws shows boats built to his design by a > company in BC. > > There are several other companies or designers using Brent's > technique (not always with any recognition of him, I'll add quietly). > One is Sailtech in Vancouver, and the other is Designer Patrick > Bray, also in Vancouver, I think located at > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca  with the "Aisha" 42 footer > being the only example. Or put those names in any search > engine and they should come up.    www.tanton.com also has > several designs using the technique, though not much is said > about the technique itself on Tanton's website. > > Hope that is of some help, and if you are lucky, someone else > will pipe in here and fill in the (likely many) gaps I have left in my > response. > > Alex > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., pan@b... wrote: > > How hard is it to clean up the weld areas?  Do you have to be a > good > > enough welder that they grind flush to the plate or do you do > any > > filling?  How is the metal finished, primers/paint etc.?  Is there > a > > website to the designer? > > Thanks, Les > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > |
11|11|2001-04-25 11:28:33|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|(no subject)|Hi all, Just a note that Brent has recently posted some more good advice and interesting facts re. the strength of his boats on the metal boats forum at boatbuilding.com. This is an excellent site which, combined with this origamiboats group should be a terrific resource for all. He also stated that he hopes to be involved with the group soon.         Cheers              Richard|
12|12|2001-04-25 23:57:26|Alex Christie|Brent Swain to join forum shortly|Greetings Origamiboats forum members,  I have just been in touch with Brent and he informs me that he will  be getting on board Origamiboats shortly.  I'll be visiting him on his 31 footer at Comox this week hopefully,  and I will attempt to get a few digital pictures to upload of some of  the detailing and machinery that Brent has worked out for these boats  that will be of interest to all. Brent's solutions to such problems  as finding a suitable anchor winch (you just build one) are a breath  of fresh air in a cruising world increasingly dominated by expensive  factory manufactured toys that more than often do not stand up to the  rigors of true offshore voyaging, or even around the bouys. His book  provides drawings and notes for the building of just about everything  you'd find on a sailboat, from winches to masts, even to propellors,  and they work, according to owners I have met.  I am also working on composing a photo album of the various Swain  boats out there so that members can see how different ones are  finished off.  Concurrent with this, I hope to convince a few of the  owners to give their own written testimonies of the trials (and  tribulations) of building their own craft.  Stay tuned!  Alex Christie Moderator, Origamiboats|
13|13|2001-04-26 11:18:21|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Brents book|Hi Alex, Just wondering if you could get the address to order the book from Brent, price, mailing cost etc. The group seems to be growing nicely and new 'photos will be welcomed. (Any word from Gene yet?, he should be getting started again soon.)      Regards,      Richard|
14|13|2001-04-27 16:21:55|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Brents book|Richard     For a copy of my book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat a Heretic's  Guide"  100 pages Paperback illustrated ,please send $20 plus $3 for  postage to Suite #427  1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada  V9W8C9     Thanks      Brent Swain         --- In origamiboats@y..., sunyataspirit@y... wrote: >   >   Hi Alex, Just wondering if you could get the address to order the  book from Brent, price, mailing cost etc. The group seems to be  growing nicely and new 'photos will be welcomed. (Any word from Gene  yet?, he should be getting started again soon.) >  >     Regards, >  >     Richard |
15|8|2001-04-27 16:43:34|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: questions|Les    I usually buy the plate wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold  galvanizing primer ( 80 % pus zinc ) Straight from the steel supliers.  The extra cost is less than the cost of sandblasting afterwards.This  eliminates the need to sandblast .   as I use heavier plate than  most framed boats, I don't worry about  a bit of undercut on the welds. The smoke from the welding does stop  paint from sticking and thus has to be washed off with vinegar before  you put any epoxy on.    My book covers the painting process in greater detail.    I don't have a website yet.          Brent Swain           --- In origamiboats@y..., pan@b... wrote: > How hard is it to clean up the weld areas?  Do you have to be a good  > enough welder that they grind flush to the plate or do you do any  > filling?  How is the metal finished, primers/paint etc.?  Is there a  > website to the designer? > Thanks, Les |
16|3|2001-04-27 17:01:33|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Nice pictures..|The biggest origami built boat I've seen was a 60 footer built of 1/4  inch p[late  by Roy Chambers ,in the eighties . Ken Splett built a  couple of 53 footers in 3/8th inch aluminium  ,with no problems.   As the boat gets bigger , the plate gets thicker, but the distances  and thus the leverage you get with a comealong also increases.  Theoretically there  is no uppersize limit , but the plates for the  decks and cabin get large and heavy enough to make  heavy equipment  like overhead cranes  neccessary.    I once pulled together a 47 footer , and ended up visiting the  physio therapist for several months after . This inspired me to refuse  to do anything over 36 feet myself, but others can do the 40 footer if  they are masochistic enough.     I have pulled together 36 foot hulls in two days from the time the  steel arrived , and pulled together hull, deck, cabin,cockpit  ,wheelhouse, keel, skeg and  rudder in 6 days, without the keel  attached. Attaching the keel takes another 4 hours.    Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., cdasilva@i... wrote: > I always wondered how you build a boat using origami methods. That,  > the pictures, certainly looked fascinating. I bet it is very fast to  > build such a boat.  >  > Does anybody knows what are the size limits for such a boat. I  > imagine as the boat gets bigger the hull thickness increases and  > therefore it becomes harder to form (bend) the hull. >  > cheers > cid |
17|17|2001-04-28 04:35:12|Alex Christie|A visit with the designer|Dear group,  Well, I've had my visit and chat with Brent Swain in Comox today, and  enjoyed picking his brain for ideas about his boats.  I'll try and  relate some of what we talked about, later in the body of this  posting. Later on in the afternoon I had a chance to walk out at low  tide on the mudflat in Comox harbour and I took some digital photos  of the outside of his 31' twin keeler as it sat high and dry. These  are now available to see in the files section.   The photos Brent showed me of his trip to the South Pacific from  which he returned not long ago were inspiring, to say the least!  Romantic locations like Samoa, Raratonga and others even more exotic  sounding, were the destinations of his voyage. One of the snapshots  showed the rare 40 footer, his latest design, and it is very nice  looking with an aft cabin and ample pilot house. It happened to be  moored to a partly sunken barge at one of the atolls he visited in  his journeys. After seeing a photo of this boat, I knew it would be  just right as a liveaboard cruiser for my four person family, and now  I want to get building such a craft right away!  In the back of my mind, I realized what an overwhelming undertaking  boat construction can be, having 1 year ago completed a shipwright's  course where the building of even small boats was time consuming and  a challenge to the mind and spirit. The 40 footer is a VERY big boat  compared to the more modest 31 and 36 footers, so I know this project  has to be taken on in a serious manner lest it get bogged down by the  size and complexity of the process. Bearing this in mind, I chatted  with Brent about the challenges of building a boat to his design, and  what strategies one could employ for success in building. Having  built many boats hulls, and subsequently seen how the owners fare as  they detail and complete their vessels, he had some excellent  suggestions to make. One is to first get your materials list together  and begin to prowl scrapyards, alleys and wherever else you find the  various materials that go into the making of a boat. Reading his  book, I realized that he has provided drawings for building a sturdy  alternative to just about every off-the-shelf marine part you can  imagine that goes into a boat. Stainless steel, which finds itself  used extensively for detailing, can be found in many places other  than expensive marine suppliers. The industrial world has gifted us  with a universe of wondrous things made to withstand extremes of use,  and many of these things (valves, pipes,galvanized cable for rigging,  etc) are available cheaply by weight or by unit. The savings to be  gained by finding necessary items at your own liesure and price  threshold can be quite high. Money saved early on can be money  invested later in other more needy areas of your building project  (like a shiny new engine).  Brent also suggested that one can build many parts of the boat well  before starting the actual hull. Parts like the anchor winch  (drawings for which are in the book), the aluminum dinghy, bow  rollers, the rudder, aluminum hatches and much more can all be pre- fabricated beforehand, gaining what Brent estimates to be at least a  third of the work involved in the overall building scheme.  Besides  speeding up the overall completion of the boat, it's something to do  while searching for a building site, it's possibly fun, and it can be  done practically anywhere.  Regards,  Alex Christie|
18|18|2001-04-28 16:16:04|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Interesting Boat Building concept.....|I find the idea of carrying over the principles behind Plywood's  "Stitch and Glue" or "Instant boat" building concepts to metal, very  appealing for one-off boats. At this point this process is clearly in  its infancy when applied to yachts, as clearly evidenced by the photo  galleries. I would be very interested in seeing these principles  applied to hull forms intended to have better sailing performance and  more comfortable motions. The hulls shown in the photos certainly  appear to be very robust but totally ignore all that is currently  known about designing for speed or comfort in a seaway. To some  extent, Yves Tanton has been working on developing boats using similar  construction techniques but which certainly pay attention to the  sailing characteristics of the finished vessel. (See his 'Steel Star'  design at http://www.tantonyachts.com/ for a contrast with the boats  shown here)   I also question the idea of frameless constuction. I think this would  tend to produce a much heavier boat than a framed vessel for the same  strength, or else a much weaker boat at the same weight. Weight  in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make  it strong, or fast, or stable, or safe, or seaworthy, or comfortable.  It just makes it heavier, meaning higher stresses on all of the  parts and harder to sail in all conditions.   Today with the ability to use computer driven cutters, building the  internal framework for a steel boat is wildly easier that it had been.  Steel yards are able to stack the frames in the computer to minimize  waste steel, incorporate slots and tabs to insure proper alignment of  parts and produce exceptionally precise cuts at low cost.  In my mind the advantage of frame constuction, is  a greater guarantee  of a precision hull form, greater stiffness and resistance to impact  damage, and the ease of building the the rest of the boat.   I also wonder about the whole cost issue. This is something that comes  up in plywood boats all of the time because it is bacically the same  problem. When you think about the cost of building the hull, normally  the hull and deck structure represent 10% to 20% of the entire boat  building cost. Assuming that you can build the hull quite cheaply  using this method, say 75% of the cost of an aluminum hull, or 60% of  a well executed cold molded hull or perhaps 50% of a really well  executed high tech glass hull, you are only saving maybe 5% to 10% of  the cost of constructing the whole boat. (A lot of savings can come  from the less than 'gold plater' finishes shown in the photos.) But I  would guess that these boats probably have resale vales that are maybe  2/3 to 1/2 of the resale value of a similar sized glass one off with a  similar level of finish. While you can easily build one of these hulls  in less time than stitch and glue plywood even, I really question  whether the econmics are there to support building in steel.   All of the above does not touch on the problem that steel boats  (especially with steel decks) have with regard to having a high center  of gravity, which is very adversely affects ultimate stability and  comfort at sea.   So while I find this all very interesting I would love to see a  discussion of these issues.   Respectfully submitted, Jeff|
19|7|2001-04-29 13:17:49|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Plywood folded skin boats|The basic principles involved in this technique have been applied to  plywood quite successfully. In plywood you often hear these techniques  referred to as 'stitch and glue', 'tortured plywood' or 'instant  boatbuiling'. Today, these techniques are generally applied to  comparatively small boats but people like Dudley Dix  http://dixdesign.com/ or Yves Tanton http://www.tantonyachts.com/   have produced some considerably larger designs using these techniques  or these techniques combined with small amounts of cold molding.  Tanton lists 10', 15', 20', 30', 40' "Origami" plywood sailboats.    Plywood offers a lot of advantages over steel. It produces a lighter  weight boat for a given strength or a stronger boat for a given  weight. The lighter weight of the plywood hull and deck sturcture  should permit a lower center of gravity which is important for  seakeeping, comfort at sea, and sailing performance. If the hull is  saturated with either epoxy (or vinylester) and sheathed in a  fiberglass or kevlar cloth and saturated with epoxy or vinylester  resin, the plywood boat will be more durable and lower maintenance.   I suspect that the hull for a plywood boat would take longer to build  in that there is more time spent scarfing parts together and building  a jig but the jig often ends up as the interior furnishings which may  even out the time spent. Plywood construction probably is more  expensive than the steel boats shown on this site but if you think  about the hull and deck as being 10% to 20% of the overall cost of  boat constuction then the difference in cost between the two materials  becomes fairly insignificant.  One important issue on a plywood boat is take care to avoid  delaminations. This requires good quality materials, care in sealing  edges and surfaces and care in laminating materials. The good news is  that simple delaminations are fairly easy to repair if detected early.  Of course there is still the problem with prejudices against wood (or  steel for that matter) that supresses resale prices. The real cost of  owning a boat is the difference between the purchase price and the  resale price. In the US there are real prejudices that force down the  values of both types of boat. Some of these are supported by formal  institutions. For example I have had problems getting loans for boats  that were of plywood construction (except cold molded) and was  involved in a deal that fell through because the buyer could not get a  loan on steel boat. The plywood boats are actually easier to get loans  on but the banks will often require more frequent surveys which of  course adds up after a while.   Jeff|
20|20|2001-04-29 21:36:30|Alex & Kim Christie|Interesting links|          Here are some links to designs or boats being built  using the origami techniques:    Go to this site for a look at a company in the BC  interior building Brent Swain hulls. They have some commentary well  worth reading:  www.boatbuilding.ws   Naval architect Patrick Bray of Vancouver has a  design using the origami technique, a 42 footer (none have been built to  it, since I last spoke to him). He also has an excellent treatise on the use of  twin keels. www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/aisha   Sailtech Yachts uses the origami technique for  their aluminum yachts. They started out using Brent's design for their first  boats, and have since modified it for a more modern hull in aluminum, but the  concept is the same. Not cheap, though likely no different than many custom  alum. boatbuilders.  The savings in labour by using the origami technique  do not appear to be passed on to the owner, in my view, but the boats  do look nice. Grahame Shannon (of Amazon 47 fame) did the new design work  for them. The Fastwater 47 is basically an origami version of the Amazon. Don't  bother asking if he'll sell you a set of plans: I already did and he said no!  Too bad, as I believe this would have answered Jeff's concerns regarding a more  modern hull form. If we are lucky, more designs using the origami technique  will appear that address the need. http://www.sailtechyachts.com   Alex  |
21|18|2001-04-30 00:30:43|Alex & Kim Christie|Interesting Boat Building concept.....|          Thanks for your commentary Jeff. I am happy to get  some healthy debate going here.   I'll try to reply to the points I can, and  hopefully Brent will address the questions further when he gets to a  terminal at the local library. He does not have a computer or internet  connection on his boat, so his responses will always be delayed.   Cost of steel boats, resale value: Here on the  British Columbia coast, steel boats are held in fairly high regard, most notably  for their ability to survive impact with logging debris such as deadheads  (waterlogged log which floats vertically with one end just at or sometimes  slightly below the surface).  The inherent dangers of coastal cruising in  BC may in part explain the proliferation of Swain boats in these parts. I  have found the resale values on steel boats to be quite high if they are built  and finished nicely. With the advances in coating technology, as Tanton says in  his description of Steelstar, there is little reason to avoid the use of steel  for a boat hull.   Use of plywood for hulls: I am trained in wooden  boatbuilding myself, a recent graduate of a boatbuilding school on this coast  (www.boatschool.com for those  interested!).  I used to think that plywood might be a way to go for an  economically built cruiser, and still don't doubt the ability of the material to  function well if properly employed in the right design (Dudley Dix seems to be  doing good work in this regard). Sadly, when it comes time to sell, you  will face extreme prejudice against your boat just because your ad says,  "Plywood hull", even though you've poured heart, soul and much money into  it.  Phil Bolger has put a lot of thought to this in his books. It is too  bad that as a result of this prejudice against plywood, the long term economics  for the owner are so much against it, but I guess the dictates of the  market are somewhat to blame.    Quality: Very subjective when speaking of custom or  amateur built boat. I think the ultimate quality of a boat is measured by three  factors: good design, good materials, and good workmanship. If you lower your  standard on any one of those elements, the end result suffers. That said, I  shy away from ever making a sweeping generalisation about any hull material or  design, because the world of boats is so highly subjective, and the variables  that make a boat "good" are many. For example, I  have seen examples of  well known designs like the Endurance 35 which I'd gladly go to sea in without a  moment's worry. Yet later on I'd see an example of  the same type which  filled me with horror at the idea of setting foot in it at the dock, because it  was so poorly put together. It is not the fault of the design, in this  instance, but the mistakes made by the builder which yielded the  abomination.   I knew of a ferrocement cruising yacht which was  built in Holland to Lloyd's specs, and it was a durable thing  of unquestionable beauty. Other ferro boats are anything but pretty, but  the same can be said of boats of all materials.   Some Swain boats are built to gold-plater finish,  such as SILAS CROSBY in Comox. It has stainless rigging, roller furling,  aluminum mast, and a flawless paint job. Others are more "rough and ready". Each  boat represents the individual tastes and priorities of the owner, so the  results vary widely. But the main thing is that these boats are being  actively used locally and offshore. People are really sailing these things, not  just dreaming (like me!).    The minimum requirement for a Swain hull or its  equivalent is that there is access to a flat surface and a plug-in for an AC  welder, and not much else. This means it can be pulled together just about  anywhere, because it is so low-tech.     It is wonderful to contemplate the use of  computer-driven cutters and other technical advances for steel boatbuilding, and  I wish such things were more common and accessable.   Unfortunately they are not an affordable or accessable reality for the  aspiring amateur boatbuilder, so we make do with what we have in order to get on  the water to produce a workable product, and again I think this is where Brent's  boats come in. As a sociological aside, I have noticed that the typical  Swain hull builder tends to be a bit of a "rugged individualist" who avoids  expense and complication when economy and simplicity will do the job just as  well. My theory is that it's an attitude partly borne of this coast's  relatively recent colonial-pioneering past. Early european and asian colonists  had to look to themselves to solve problems in an isolated environment, and  remnants of this self-reliant attitude remain to be expressed in Swain hull  owner-builders today.    The origami system is definitely evolving, and  could really go far in the future with viarations on the hulls (I'm counting on  all of you to keep your eyes peeled for anything that pops in this regard  and report back!). Certainly there is no reason in the long term for the hull  forms to be limited to a few types, but I think Swain at the moment has  effectively filled the demand with a set of vessels which function quite well at  minimal cost. Additionally, his book offers simple home-built alternatives  to just about every manufactured marine part found in a sailboat except for the  engine. This means that lack of a marine chandlery next door is not a  barrier to going cruising, though it is a nice luxury if the pocketbook can  afford it.    I think the current origami boatbuilding  technique as used in Brent's boats offers a realistic chance to go from concept  ("I wish I had a crusing sailboat") to reality (actually sailing a boat to  Samoa) in short order without sacrificing safety or comfort.  Any  economizing which sacrifices safety and comfort is a dangerous proposition,  since the two are inter-related on a long ocean voyage.   Speed: The question of the speed of these hulls  is difficult to properly address because there are two scenarios  to consider: are you measuring a vessel's speed around the bouys in a  race, or are you measuring distance made good in a 24 hour period during  a bluewater crossing? Brent's Depending one what you want out of a boat,  your requirements would be met by two very different crafts.  If you  want speed AND comfort, you may have to compromise, though I'll add that  advances in design are certainly narrowing the gap between racer and  cruiser.   Weight: Brent can address the issue of weight  better than I, but if I recall correctly, the reduction of transverse  frames (there is actually a large web of frame-like structures in the  midships area in order to take up the stresses imposed by the twin keels)  allows the use of thicker (3/16th) plate to be used, vastly increasing its  resistance to damage from point-loading.  With the weight merely shifting  from the frame to the hull plate, I can see no increase in weight over  traditionally framed boats.    Precision of constructed hull form: I'll quote from  Brent's book on this one:   "...If the plate for one side of the hull matches  perfectly the plate for the other side of the hull, and they all attach to one  another at the same relative points with those on the other side of the hull,  it's geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything but symmetrical. Any  variation in symmetry can only be attributed to variations in the size and  shapes, from one side to another, or attachment points of the various parts. For  this reason, the symmetry of a boat is dependent on the care the builder takes  making sure the parts used for one side are identical to those used for the  other side (just like any other method of boatbuilding)."   'Nuff said,   Alex Christie      |
22|22|2001-04-30 00:38:44|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello,  This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats  group.    File        : /Moonraven/moonraven2a.jpg    Uploaded by : ravencoast@...    Description : Moon Raven at Comox 2   You can access this file at the URL  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Moonraven/moonraven2a.jpg   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit  http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files  Regards,  ravencoast@...|
23|22|2001-04-30 03:54:32|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello,  This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats  group.    File        : /Nuthin Wong.jpg    Uploaded by : ravencoast@...    Description : Nuthin Wong Junk-rigged origami boat   You can access this file at the URL  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Nuthin%20Wong.jpg   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit  http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files  Regards,  ravencoast@...|
24|18|2001-04-30 08:55:17|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Interesting Boat Building concept-response to Alex.....|I would like to address a few of your points; Speed around the marks  vs 24 hour runs in bluewater, the absense of frames allowing thicker  plating and fairness.  I often hear bluewater cruisers claim to have really fast days runs in  the bluewater environment when compared to more modern designs. This  has just not proved to be the case in the various "Atlantic Rallys".  In general, heavier traditional boats have had substantially slower  passages and have run their engines a significantly greater proportion  of the time. In one study of a recent Atlantic rally, boats  classified as heavier cruising boats were found to have run their  engines more than 100% more than the engine hours of boats categorized  as performance distance cruisers. This may be argued to be the results  of a lot of factors such as people who buy performance cruisers are  more likely to be interested in getting more performance out  of their boats and perhaps have a stronger preference for sailing  rather than motoring, the lighter boats were at sea for shorter  periods of time and therefore even if they ran their engines the same  amount each day there were fewer days at sea, and people with heavier  boats may be less adverse to running the iron genoa. Surprisingly, the  big gains by the 'performance cruisers' occurred during periods marked  by heavy weather beating, with other large gains made near the end of  the passage in broad reaching and running conditions.   On the issue of heavier plating vs frames. It is very hard to make up  for the absense of frames with heavier plating. When you engineer the  skin of a vessel, the key determinant of plating thickness is the size  of the panel. In a typical steel boat under 40 feet, you would expect  panels that were less than 1'-6" by 4 foot. If you only have a single  ring frame you are looking at panels that are something on the order  of 5 or 6 feet in its smallest dimension. In the formulas the span of  the panels are squared and cubed respectively. So the larger panel  size would need plate, 11 times as strong in bending to have equal  strength and 37 times as stiff to have equal stiffness. But 3/16"  plate is only 2.25 times stronger in bending than 1/8" plate and only  3.4 times as stiff as the 1/8". The formula for rupture strength also  uses span squared and thickness squared. On the other hand, the lack  of frames might reduce the posiblity of sheering the panel if the  impact was adjacent to a frame.   While I have read your repeat of Brent's quote that essentially said  all things being equal "it's geometrically impossible for the hull to  be anything but symmetrical." That is true in a hypothetical sense but  I have seen kit stitch and glue kayaks, where the panels were  precision cut and the stitching holes precision drilled go together  with some pretty big distortions. With care these distortions can be  sorted out and a fair hull produced, but it is one thing to lossen a  few wires and push a piece of 1/8" plywood around and entirely another  to try to straighten a welded 3/16" steel plate. You might argue these  distortions are within an acceptable tolerance and I suppose that  comes down to each persons goals for their boat.  I am out of time here.   Jeff   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Thanks for your commentary Jeff. I am happy to get some healthy   debate going here.  >  > I'll try to reply to the points I can, and hopefully Brent will   address the questions further when he gets to a terminal at the local  library. He does not have a computer or internet connection on his  boat, so his responses will always be delayed.  >  > Cost of steel boats, resale value: Here on the British Columbia   coast, steel boats are held in fairly high regard, most notably for  their ability to survive impact with logging debris such as deadheads  (waterlogged log which floats vertically with one end just at or  sometimes slightly below the surface).  The inherent dangers of  coastal cruising in BC may in part explain the proliferation of Swain  boats in these parts. I have found the resale values on steel boats to  be quite high if they are built and finished nicely. With the advances  in coating technology, as Tanton says in his description of Steelstar,  there is little reason to avoid the use of steel for a boat hull.  >  > Use of plywood for hulls: I am trained in wooden boatbuilding   myself, a recent graduate of a boatbuilding school on this coast  (www.boatschool.com for those interested!).  I used to think that  plywood might be a way to go for an economically built cruiser, and  still don't doubt the ability of the material to function well if  properly employed in the right design (Dudley Dix seems to be doing  good work in this regard). Sadly, when it comes time to sell, you will  face extreme prejudice against your boat just because your ad says,  "Plywood hull", even though you've poured heart, soul and much money  into it.  Phil Bolger has put a lot of thought to this in his books.  It is too bad that as a result of this prejudice against plywood, the  long term economics for the owner are so much against it, but I guess  the dictates of the market are somewhat to blame.   >   > Quality: Very subjective when speaking of custom or amateur built   boat. I think the ultimate quality of a boat is measured by three  factors: good design, good materials, and good workmanship. If you  lower your standard on any one of those elements, the end result  suffers. That said, I shy away from ever making a sweeping  generalisation about any hull material or design, because the world of  boats is so highly subjective, and the variables that make a boat  "good" are many. For example, I  have seen examples of well known  designs like the Endurance 35 which I'd gladly go to sea in without a  moment's worry. Yet later on I'd see an example of  the same type  which filled me with horror at the idea of setting foot in it at the  dock, because it was so poorly put together. It is not the fault of  the design, in this instance, but the mistakes made by the builder  which yielded the abomination.  >   > I knew of a ferrocement cruising yacht which was built in Holland to   Lloyd's specs, and it was a durable thing of unquestionable beauty.  Other ferro boats are anything but pretty, but the same can be said of  boats of all materials.  >  > Some Swain boats are built to gold-plater finish, such as SILAS   CROSBY in Comox. It has stainless rigging, roller furling, aluminum  mast, and a flawless paint job. Others are more "rough and ready".  Each boat represents the individual tastes and priorities of the  owner, so the results vary widely. But the main thing is that these  boats are being actively used locally and offshore. People are really  sailing these things, not just dreaming (like me!).   >  > The minimum requirement for a Swain hull or its equivalent is that   there is access to a flat surface and a plug-in for an AC welder, and  not much else. This means it can be pulled together just about  anywhere, because it is so low-tech.   >  > It is wonderful to contemplate the use of computer-driven cutters   and other technical advances for steel boatbuilding, and I wish such  things were more common and accessable.  Unfortunately they are not an  affordable or accessable reality for the aspiring amateur boatbuilder,  so we make do with what we have in order to get on the water to  produce a workable product, and again I think this is where Brent's  boats come in. As a sociological aside, I have noticed that the  typical Swain hull builder tends to be a bit of a "rugged  individualist" who avoids expense and complication when economy and  simplicity will do the job just as well. My theory is that it's an  attitude partly borne of this coast's relatively recent  colonial-pioneering past. Early european and asian colonists had to  look to themselves to solve problems in an isolated environment, and  remnants of this self-reliant attitude remain to be expressed in Swain  hull owner-builders today.   >   > The origami system is definitely evolving, and could really go far   in the future with viarations on the hulls (I'm counting on all of you  to keep your eyes peeled for anything that pops in this regard and  report back!). Certainly there is no reason in the long term for the  hull forms to be limited to a few types, but I think Swain at the  moment has effectively filled the demand with a set of vessels which  function quite well at minimal cost. Additionally, his book offers  simple home-built alternatives to just about every manufactured marine  part found in a sailboat except for the engine. This means that lack  of a marine chandlery next door is not a barrier to going cruising,  though it is a nice luxury if the pocketbook can afford it.   >   > I think the current origami boatbuilding technique as used in   Brent's boats offers a realistic chance to go from concept ("I wish I  had a crusing sailboat") to reality (actually sailing a boat to Samoa)  in short order without sacrificing safety or comfort.  Any economizing  which sacrifices safety and comfort is a dangerous proposition, since  the two are inter-related on a long ocean voyage.  >   > Speed: The question of the speed of these hulls is difficult to   properly address because there are two scenarios to consider: are you  measuring a vessel's speed around the bouys in a race, or are you  measuring distance made good in a 24 hour period during a bluewater  crossing? Brent's Depending one what you want out of a boat, your  requirements would be met by two very different crafts.  If you want  speed AND comfort, you may have to compromise, though I'll add that  advances in design are certainly narrowing the gap between racer and  cruiser.  >   > Weight: Brent can address the issue of weight better than I, but if   I recall correctly, the reduction of transverse frames (there is  actually a large web of frame-like structures in the midships area in  order to take up the stresses imposed by the twin keels) allows the  use of thicker (3/16th) plate to be used, vastly increasing its  resistance to damage from point-loading.  With the weight merely  shifting from the frame to the hull plate, I can see no increase in  weight over traditionally framed boats.   >  > Precision of constructed hull form: I'll quote from Brent's book on   this one:  >  > "...If the plate for one side of the hull matches perfectly the   plate for the other side of the hull, and they all attach to one  another at the same relative points with those on the other side of  the hull, it's geometrically impossible for the hull to be anything  but symmetrical. Any variation in symmetry can only be attributed to  variations in the size and shapes, from one side to another, or  attachment points of the various parts. For this reason, the symmetry  of a boat is dependent on the care the builder takes making sure the  parts used for one side are identical to those used for the other side  (just like any other method of boatbuilding)."  >  > 'Nuff said, >  > Alex Christie |
25|25|2001-04-30 12:21:20|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Interesting discourse|Hi Alex & Jeff,     (Thanks for the update on Gene Alex)    I've been following with interest the points brought forward byJeff re. weight, framelessness etc and Alex's response. The thrustand parry of all such discussion is both enlightening and stimulatingand it's good to see that this group is off to a great start withrespect to informative interaction amongst members.     From the perspective of someone with little technical knowledgeof the engineering process involved in sailboat design I hesitate todip my toes in the rippled waters of naval architecture and insteadwould like to attempt to show why so many people are enamoured withBrent's designs.     Those of us who desire to build a sailboat do so because we arenot in a financial position to go out and purchase a finishedproduct. Most builders and dreamers I have met here on the coast are,like myself, pretty ordinary Joe sixpack types, and, as stated byAlex, independent minded.      I doubt there are many out there who would turn down the chanceat a gold plater but when all things are considered there are fewdesigns which can compare with Brent's for ease of construction,strength and proven offshore capability. One can bounce claims backand forth over the "frames versus no frames" debate but when WinstonBushnell, a well known local sailor and circumnavigator decides thathis new boat will be yet another Swain design, (his third) and thatthe design has proven itself on a journey through the NorthWestPassage then personally I need no further proof that these are damnfine boats.         A comparison of boats from other designers built inmaterials such as wood, fibreglass and aluminum shows that with a w/lof 31' 9" and a displacement of 19500 lbs the Swain 36 is well placedin terms of speed and sea kindliness.        With Brents philosophy of simplicity the dream of a cruisingboat is within most peoples reach and I would quote from an articleby Ian Douglas in the May '98 issue of Pacific Yachting in whichBrent's fina|
26|26|2001-04-30 12:42:29|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|continuum|For some unknown reason my last post became somewhat cramped after posting and the final comments seem to have disappeared. Ah, the mysteries of cyberspace!    Brents final comment in the afore mentioned article were, I feel very appropriate.       "Insofar as there is more stress, anxiety and worry (displeasure) in sailing a yacht which represents one's life work than there is in cruising in a simple,sound,seaworthy but inexpensive yacht which could be much more easily replaced; a good argument can be made for keeping a vessel as simple and inexpensive as possible"       Amen!    Lets keep up the interaction of ideas to keep us stimulated, not forgetting however that the ultimate goal is to get out there and cruise!      Cheers, Richard|
27|25|2001-04-30 13:46:40|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Interesting discourse-reply to Sunyatspirit|I too am enjoying this discussion and the courteousness of this group  is refreshing and appreciated. I think that a lot of good points have  been raised about the nature of the building environment in the  Pacific NW. I thought the email that pointed out that these boats were  often being built out in the weather in a harsh climate was one that  had not really occurred to me but which certainly reflects an  advantage that would certainly promote a quick and temperature  tolerant building technique.   I did want to address one point in sunyatspirit's post.  Sunyatspirit  indicated in his comments, "A comparison of boats from other designers  built in materials such as wood, fibreglass and aluminum shows that  with a w/L of 31' 9" and a displacement of 19500 lbs the Swain 36 is  well placed in terms of speed and sea kindliness." I really disagree  with that a little.   Let me put that weight into in perspective. The boat that I am  currently buying is an epoxy saturated cold molded hull with  epoxy/Eglass sheathing. Sisterships have done multiple  circum-navigations and there is one that was built in South Africa,  raced in the Indian Ocean, sailed back to South Africa where she was  sold. She then sailed up the Atlantic to Scotland. She cruised Europe  (North Sea and Med.) and then, depending on which version you believe,  sailed from Scotland to the Carribean and back to Scotland and Back to  the Carribean. These boats sail out of some pretty harsh environments  South Africa, and Bass Straights. While they are not exactly typical  of the average distance cruiser, these boats are 38 feet long (33'4 on  WL) and weight 10,500 lbs with partial tankage and something like  14,500 lbs fully loaded. In comparison, a length on WL of 31'9" and a  displacement of 19500 lbs is outrageously heavy (even if that is a  fully loaded weight.   While the debate on seakindliness has traditionally been hard on  lighter weight boats, the current thinking is that the two main  factors controlling comfort at sea is weight distribution and hull  shape. (Weight in and of itself has little to do with it) In terms of  weight distribution the lower the center of gravity the more  comfortable the motion. When you look at more modern designs that have  been designed for comfort at sea the center of gravities of the boats  tend to be quite far below the center of bouyancy. So in the case of  the boat that I am purchasing the center of gravity when fully loaded  is 2'7" below the waterline and the center of buoyancy is about 13"  below the waterline. (The C of G is slightly lower when the boat is  empty.) Just eyeing the 31 footer would suggest that both the C of B  and the C of G are quite close the same height. This means a quicker  and more rolly motion.   The other issue is hull form. Today, we know that the real no-no's in  terms of comfort at sea are deep canoe bodies, and hard chines. The  deep canoe bodies increase roll angle while the hard chines promote  faster roll rates and higher accelerations. In looking at the Swain 36  both of these are exhibited.   I understand the strong endoursement implied by the Winston Bushnell  example of a sailor circumnavigating successfully sailing the  Northwest Passage and then building his third Swain design. That said,  I don't think that really provides anything in a more global sense.  For example, none of us would buy a Hunter simply because that fellow  who previously sailed his Hunter 37 around the world and is now going  around in a Hunter 43.   I do believe in simplicity. We just suspect that we have different  ideas of simplicity.   Respectfully Jeff|
28|28|2001-04-30 15:50:13|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|continuing the discussion:|Hi Jeff, I agree the group seems to be developing as a pleasant forum to discuss various aspects of constructive debate.     I don't believe the loaded weight of the 36 footer is outrageously high. Remember we are discussing cruising boats. W. Crealock , with many good designs sailing the world, suggests that in order for a cruising boat to carry all the food, gear, spares etc. necessary for several months of independence then a boat should have a displacement of 8000 to 10000 lbs per person.      I agree that a timely passage is important, no-one wants to spend time wallowing at sea, yet frequently  boats that are designed for speed, as are the big racers, tend so often to suffer major structural damage when pushed. Yes I know that most are big cats and utilize state of the art, often unproven technology and materials but for the the average person a compromise between speed, comfort and safety is paramount.       Good tracking ability as well as pointing well to windward is also important. Both twin keels and a long fin keel are available on the 36 footer and both seem to provide fine results.       We all know that much in life is a compromise, from marriage to the house in which we live and it's no different with boats is it? You will no doubt detect a bias on my part for this particular boat and material. There are too many variables in man, boats and the ocean to conclude that one material, design or rig is superior than another and therefore discussions such as this will provide endless hours of entertainment .     I'm looking forward to other members chiming in with their point of view, in particular Brent, who's hands-on experience is invaluable.            Regards       Richard|
29|25|2001-05-01 02:28:09|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Interesting discourse-reply to Sunyatspirit|              The boat that I am currently buying is an epoxy saturated cold    molded hull with epoxy/Eglass sheathing.        Which boat is this? Betcha I could poke a hole in it with my BS    Heretic 36. My Brent Boat is a tough motherfucker, the other day I was inside    pounding on the inside with a sledgehammer(wear earmuffs) and broke the    fiberglass handle. Different strokes for different folks.               Paul,    building outside in BC  |
30|25|2001-05-01 09:05:00|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Interesting discourse-reply to Sunyatspirit|"Betcha I could poke a hole in it with my BS Heretic 36." Lets see  here, 19,000lbs and 3/16" steel. If you tee-boned me in the topsides  and missed a frame, you are right you would pierce my topsides (62,000  psi rupture resistance and +/-70,000 psi impact). Of course, even at  only 10,500, with 5/8" cold molded hull and ash framing, if I  tee-boned you in the topsides I could probably poke a hole in you  as well(38,000 psi rupture resistance and +/-40,000 psi impact). The  difference would be that the framing would constrain my hole from  spreading. One purpose of framing on conventional steel (or cold  molded) hulls is limit the spread of a tear in the skin. On an  unframed steel hull the tear would continue to spread so a tear  offshore would continue to work and become larger until you hit a  frame or other edge. The good news is that we hopefully will not have  to test this theory. 8^) Jeff|
31|25|2001-05-01 18:57:56|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Interesting discourse-reply to Sunyatspirit|What are the odds of hitting exactly on a frame?   When the BC ferry hit the rocks in Gunboat Pass a few years ago it  was only creased between the frames . It was holed at each frame .If  the frames had been set away from the hull plating it would have been  creased the whole way without holing. Frames create a stress raiser,  which gives a fixed point against which the plate can tear.   Aluminium riverboats now avoid having transverse frames touch the  hull at any point as they always used to tear at the frames and  nowhere else.   As to comparing the strength of steel with wood and fibreglass,  pound a steel nail through a piece of wood or fibreglass, then try  pounding a wooden nail or fibreglass nail through steel. Beat on a  piece of wood or fibreglass with a steel axe , the beat on a piece of  steel with a wood or fibreglass axe.This is similar to an impact of a  yacht with a container at sea, or a reef.   You could never make a hole in a steel hull with a piece of wood  (dead vegitation)or fibreglass.                                         Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > "Betcha I could poke a hole in it with my BS Heretic 36." Lets see  > here, 19,000lbs and 3/16" steel. If you tee-boned me in the topsides  > and missed a frame, you are right you would pierce my topsides  (62,000  > psi rupture resistance and +/-70,000 psi impact). Of course, even at  > only 10,500, with 5/8" cold molded hull and ash framing, if I  > tee-boned you in the topsides I could probably poke a hole in you  > as well(38,000 psi rupture resistance and +/-40,000 psi impact). The  > difference would be that the framing would constrain my hole from  > spreading. One purpose of framing on conventional steel (or cold  > molded) hulls is limit the spread of a tear in the skin. On an  > unframed steel hull the tear would continue to spread so a tear  > offshore would continue to work and become larger until you hit a  > frame or other edge. The good news is that we hopefully will not  have  > to test this theory. 8^) > Jeff |
32|32|2001-05-01 20:20:01|Alex & Kim Christie|link to site for Brent Swain book|          A small website about Brent's boats!   http://www.in2net.com/angelo/homepage.htm   Alex|
33|25|2001-05-01 20:39:26|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Interesting discourse-reply to Sunyatspirit|A heavier hull material does a lot to take the snap out of a boat's  motion . A light hull with deep ballast makes for a pendulum effect  with a short roll, but a snappy one.   Twin keels also take the roll out of  a boat. They have long been  used as roll dampers on all kinds of boats. The keel on a yacht is the  fixed point around which a boat rolls . Twin keels give a hull two  such fixed points , one dampens the rolling around the other.   A wide hull with shallow deadrise tends to follow the surface of a  wave giving it a quicker , snappier motion, whereas a narrower ,  deeper deadrise hull tends to sit steadier in the water and is less  affected by the shape of the wave passing under her.When they capsize,  wider,shallower hulls have a much greater tendency to stay capsized,  and to lose all positive stability at around 120 degrees or less.My  boats have positive stability at 175 degrees.   As to speed, I recently returned from Hilo to Vancouver Island in my  heavily loaded 31 foot twin keeler  in 23 days dispite making no  easting for the first 1,000 miles .Best run was 150 miles in 24 hours  .   One of my 36 footers left Cabo in a strong NW wind and beat to  windward 1006 miles in 6 days. 160 mile days to windward is not  uncommon in my 36 footers. I sailed from Vancouver Island to Ensenada in 14 days.I may go  slightly faster in a flimsier, lighter boat, but not by any  significant amount , not enough to give up much peace of mind for.   It may be a bit naive to assume a light displacement boat will stay  that way when fully loaded for long distance offshore voyaging. very  few do, and they almost always end up weighing far more than their  structural scantlings were designed to handle.   When at sea I don't worry much about running into floating  debris.I've hit enough hard objects at night at sea to be able to say  with confidence that I wouldn't be here if I hadn't been in a metal  hull.   I lost my first boat on  Fijian coral reef  . If she had been steel,  the same grounding would have done no dammage.                                      Brent Swain    -- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote:  > I too am enjoying this discussion and the courteousness of this   group   > is refreshing and appreciated. I think that a lot of good points   have   > been raised about the nature of the building environment in the  > Pacific NW. I thought the email that pointed out that these boats   were   > often being built out in the weather in a harsh climate was one that  > had not really occurred to me but which certainly reflects an  > advantage that would certainly promote a quick and temperature  > tolerant building technique.  >  > I did want to address one point in sunyatspirit's post.    Sunyatspirit   > indicated in his comments, "A comparison of boats from other   designers   > built in materials such as wood, fibreglass and aluminum shows that  > with a w/L of 31' 9" and a displacement of 19500 lbs the Swain 36 is  > well placed in terms of speed and sea kindliness." I really disagree  > with that a little.  >  > Let me put that weight into in perspective. The boat that I am  > currently buying is an epoxy saturated cold molded hull with  > epoxy/Eglass sheathing. Sisterships have done multiple  > circum-navigations and there is one that was built in South Africa,  > raced in the Indian Ocean, sailed back to South Africa where she was  > sold. She then sailed up the Atlantic to Scotland. She cruised   Europe   > (North Sea and Med.) and then, depending on which version you   believe,   > sailed from Scotland to the Carribean and back to Scotland and Back   to   > the Carribean. These boats sail out of some pretty harsh   environments   > South Africa, and Bass Straights. While they are not exactly typical  > of the average distance cruiser, these boats are 38 feet long (33'4   on   > WL) and weight 10,500 lbs with partial tankage and something like  > 14,500 lbs fully loaded. In comparison, a length on WL of 31'9" and   a   > displacement of 19500 lbs is outrageously heavy (even if that is a  > fully loaded weight.  >  > While the debate on seakindliness has traditionally been hard on  > lighter weight boats, the current thinking is that the two main  > factors controlling comfort at sea is weight distribution and hull  > shape. (Weight in and of itself has little to do with it) In terms   of   > weight distribution the lower the center of gravity the more  > comfortable the motion. When you look at more modern designs that   have   > been designed for comfort at sea the center of gravities of the   boats   > tend to be quite far below the center of bouyancy. So in the case of  > the boat that I am purchasing the center of gravity when fully   loaded   > is 2'7" below the waterline and the center of buoyancy is about 13"  > below the waterline. (The C of G is slightly lower when the boat is  > empty.) Just eyeing the 31 footer would suggest that both the C of B  > and the C of G are quite close the same height. This means a quicker  > and more rolly motion.  >  > The other issue is hull form. Today, we know that the real no-no's   in   > terms of comfort at sea are deep canoe bodies, and hard chines. The  > deep canoe bodies increase roll angle while the hard chines promote  > faster roll rates and higher accelerations. In looking at the Swain   36   > both of these are exhibited.  >  > I understand the strong endoursement implied by the Winston Bushnell  > example of a sailor circumnavigating successfully sailing the  > Northwest Passage and then building his third Swain design. That   said,   > I don't think that really provides anything in a more global sense.  > For example, none of us would buy a Hunter simply because that   fellow   > who previously sailed his Hunter 37 around the world and is now   going   > around in a Hunter 43.  >  > I do believe in simplicity. We just suspect that we have different  > ideas of simplicity.  >  > Respectfully > Jeff |
34|34|2001-05-01 20:43:52|Alex & Kim Christie|Swain hull analysis |Hello All,  I think Jeff has brought up some valid points on the issue of heavier displacement vessels versus light displacement. His points are in keeping with a larger ongoing debate in cruising circles everywhere and should provide an excellent touchstone for those who do not find that medium-diplacement Swain hulls fit their ideal. It sounds like Jeff is very happy and confident with his choice of vessel (what is the design name and who is the author of the design, Jeff? I am intrigued), and I am sure it will serve him well. I think it clearly demonstrates that there is lots of room for personal choices to be made in this very subjective arena.  Further to this, I do believe there are many light displacement cruisers worth looking at which combine speed, comfort and safety to the best of their ability. This kind of boat is making itself known in the world, but often in forms not available to the man or woman with shallow pockets. Again, Dudley Dix's work might offer something economical to build that really works, I don't completely know. Amor Marine http://members.tripod.com/fredjamor/ has created a 39' 12,000 lb disp. cruiser that has been designed to have positive bouyancy and a liveable interior in the event of holing, It is reported to be able to attain 13 knots under sail. I have been on the boat myself, and was very impressed with it, enough to be tempted to build one!  Is the Swain hull considered to be a medium-displacement hull, or is it a heavy displacement hull? Most would associate heavy displacement with the Steel Roberts Spray hulls, whereas the Swain hull would be considered more of a medium-displacement, don't you think? With its fin keel (or keels in the case of the bilge keeler) and skeg mounted rudder, the hull cannot be put in the same category of a Tahiti Ketch, or a Spray, by any stretch of the imagination. I would say that it is a moderate displament hull.  At this point, theoretical analysis of the Swain hull is elusive because the only way to do so is by looking at the digital photos (with their parallax errors) or actually seeing one in person. Ideally one should have a set of lines for the average Swain hull to provide more serious analysis of its potential performance compared to other boats, but these boats are not built to lines per se, only patterns (one of the reasons they are fast to build). Of course, being humans, even if we had a set of lines to look at, we could still disagree on how those lines may translate into reality! The best analysis we have now is through the actual experiences of the people that own them, subjective as that may be. It is good enough for many potential builders of this boat type, and many for many others of other boat types.  I think we've established the fact that these hulls are not light displacement by any stretch of the imagination, but neither are they extremely heavy.  I do believe that for a steel boat, these boats function very well given some of the constraints imposed by the technique with which they are built. Judging by the numbers built, and their continued popularity on this coast, most owners, in return for the gift of undertaking the blue-water life, have willingly accepted any concessions to speed that the building technique imposes. I have not heard of anyone finding that the hulls rolled excessively. It may be telling that even after long cruises, the owners hang onto their boats for a long time. When a boat gives me grief, or appears to present a liability in terms of my continued existence, I get rid of it!  On the issue of heavier plating vs frames: There is no area on the hull of Brent's boats that has large areas of unsupported plate, as there are many closely spaced longitudinal members (fore and aft) made of angle  iron spaced about 1 foot (owners please correct me the measurements if need), or so apart. These stringers run the full length of the boat in most cases, though it is said to be unneccessary in the extreme ends of the vessel where the tighter conic shape and stressed-skin provides all the stiffness desired. Many owners run the stringers up there anyway, which is their choice.  The hulls are self-fairing as they are built, by the way, and easier than you'd think to achieve symmetry. Brent would know more about explaining this than myself, and I'll leave it to him.  Perhaps "frameless" is a misnomer for this type, as it gives a false impression that the plate is bare and unsupported on the inside, which it is not. The evenly spaced stringers plus the slightly thicker skin should fulfill equivalent stiffening that transverse frames would, and would not allow a tear in the hull to "work" beyond itself, and I believe this has been proven by hulls which have seen extreme service. Maybe we should start calling them "longitudinally framed steel boats" to avoid confusion!  Cheers,  Alex Christie|
35|35|2001-05-02 01:28:34|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|36' displacement|Hi Jeff, The displacement of the 36' I gave in my previous post is incorrect. I believe the correct displacement is in fact 17000 lbs.      Richard|
36|36|2001-05-02 02:42:47|Alex & Kim Christie|frameless boats by Dudley Dix designed to ABS standards|          Hello all,    Browsing the Dudley Dix site, and looking at his  Dix 38 radius chine design, http://www.dixdesign.com/dix38pil.htm I was surprised and pleased to find that his  boat, like Brent's, also uses a steel stringer system and no transverse framing.  Yet the Dix hull fulfills the ABS standards. With similarly spaced stringers and  the same plate scantlings, I see no reason why the Swain hull would not also  meet the ABS standards. Might I be so bold to assert that, given the acceptance  of ABS standards worldwide among those who know yacht and ship design (and  insurers as well), and given that a Swain hull could theoretically meet these  standards, further debate over whether a Swain hull could be strong enough to go  to sea is possibly moot.    Far be it for me to squelch debate with talk of  mootness, I'd love to know what others think of this assertion of mine!     I have italicized Dix's second paragraph for  emphasis.   On the Dix 38, Dix writes:   "Structural design is to the ABS Guide for Building  and Classing Offshore Racing Yachts. Construction is of steel using a stringer  system and one-off hulls are built over temporary frames. Bulkheads are  structural and are bolted to tabs on the stringers. Production hulls can be  built over a spaceframe to achieve rapid and economical  construction.<em>Excess weight is trimmed out by eliminating unneccesary  structure. Most metal boats have transverse framing in addition to bulkheads,  resulting in excessive structural weight and wasted structure. With the use of  structural bulkheads and semi-bulkheads, the transverse framing has been  eliminated." </em>   Alex   PS Yahoo groups seems to have swallowed some of our  posts possibly due to technical errors. If you have found this from your end,  please let me know so that I can inform them.     |
37|36|2001-05-02 17:57:10|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|A question about frameless boats by Dudley Dix |Alex:   One last question before going out the door. I have not see a  structural plan for Mr. Swain's boats. My comments responded to the  term "Frameless construction". As was clarified in yesterday's post,  these boats are just "athrwartship frameless" as the boats have  longitinal framing. In your quote (below) from Dudly Dix, a very  sophisticated designer of yacht structures in my book, he mentioned  his boats that achieved ABS structral approval. There are two  important points here. Dix uses a series of structural bulkheads that  are fairly closely spaced (3'4" or so on center on the one design of  his that I had seen. These bulkheads are acting as athwartship frames.  Does the Swain designs include structural bulkheads?   The concern I have here is that it is way easier to build a structural  bulkhead to a precisely laid out drawing to precise dimensions and to  plank or plate over that bulkhead, than it is to plate a hull and then  try to fit bulkheads to it.  As you and I know from building boats  ourselves, the time savings in building the bulkheads first on a  one-off is enormous.    The ABS standard in question is required for all racing yachts racing  offshore. I think that achieving this standard is pretty easy and none  of us would look at the scantlings for the typical offshore racing  yacht to be adequate for long range cruising.  Respectfully, Jeff     "Structural design is to the ABS Guide for Building and Classing  Offshore Racing Yachts. Construction is of steel using a stringer  system and one-off hulls are built over temporary frames. Bulkheads  are structural and are bolted to tabs on the stringers. Production  hulls can be built over a spaceframe to achieve rapid and economical  construction.  Excess weight is trimmed out by eliminating unneccesary structure.  Most metal boats have transverse framing in addition to bulkheads,  resulting in excessive structural weight and wasted structure. With  the use of structural bulkheads and semi-bulkheads, the transverse  framing has been eliminated."|
38|36|2001-05-02 18:03:21|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Comments on this lively discussion...|This has been a most lively discussion and I especially appreciate  that Mr. Swain took the time to respond. I am not sure how much time I  will have before I need to get to the office but I would like to  address some of the points and questions that have been raised.   I will start with Mr. Swain's, "You could never make a hole in a  steel hull with a piece of wood (dead vegetation)or fiberglass."   I got a kick out of Mr. Swain's axe cutting wood and or his nail going  through wood analogy but I don't think that they have much relevance,  nor do I think his statement quoted above is particularly accurate.  Analogies work both ways. For example, think of poking a toothpick  through a piece of tin foil (do they still make tin foil or is  everything aluminum today) or trying to drive a needle into a piece of  oak. If you buy into these analogies you would conclude that a wooden  boat was stronger. Of course the reality of the situation lies  somewhere in between Mr. Swain's analogy and statement above, and my  analogy. The skin of a boat fails in a lot of ways but when you talk  about puncturing a hull the skin is a pretty thin membrane. (Just ask  the crew of the 'Titanic', a notable steel vessel that was sunk by  water. OK, it was frozen water.)   Lets look at the science here. The formulas for calculating the  likelihood of a membrane failing looks at the amount of load present,  the strength of the material and the sectional properties of the hull.  It's easy to think of steel as being extremely strong as a material.  Its properties as a material (assuming high strength steel) per cross  sectional area, make it 25% stronger than FRP (depending on laminate  and resin) and nearly 10 times stronger than wood (depending on  species) as a material. But it is nearly twice the weight of  fiberglass and 5 times the weight of wood (depending on species). In  calculating the sectional properties, the thickness of the section  gets squared. That means that for a given pound of each material, the  sectional properties of fiberglass are nearly 4 times the sectional  properties of steel and the sectional properties of wood are nearly 25  times those of steel. In reality few wood of glass boats are built as  heavy as steel hull boats but then again they don't need to be to  achieve equal strength.     Next to address another quote from Mr. Swain, "A heavier hull material  does a lot to take the snap out of a boat's motion. A light hull with  deep ballast makes for a pendulum effect with a short roll, but a  snappy one."    Again let's discuss the physics here. Mr. Swain's statement represents  very dated thinking and the realities of the behavior of a boat at  sea. After the Fastnet disaster of the late 1970's a lot of research  was performed on seaworthiness and seakeeping. Beyond simple tank full  sized vessels have been instrumented and actual roll rates and in  recent years accelerations were measured. These studies have continued  to today and presented a very different model of the way boats behave  in a seaway as compared to earlier models. The actual weight of the  boat is a comparatively small component in the equation when compared  to weight distribution in a boat.   Mr. Swain is right in using the pendulum analysis but he is a bit off  on his physics. When looking at the behavior of a vessel in a seaway,  the weight distribution is one of two main issues that determines roll  rate. If you think of a boat as being a series of pendulums, some  rigidly connected and others free to rotate at will, the amount of  weight and the distance from the point of pivot establishes the roll  rate (the speed at which the boat wants to roll from side to side) and  the roll angle.   The point of pivot on a boat is not actually a fixed point but a  moving point that passes through the center of bouyancy at each angle  of heel. If you think of a boat that was a cylinder in shape the point  would remain constant but since the center of buoyancy moves as a boat  heels the point of rotation moves as well. So, we are really looking  at instantaneous center of rotation but that is a fine point in this  discussion that will have significance in a later discussion.   Thinking of the pendulum example, if you move a given weight further  out on the pendulum, The pendulum is said to have a greater moment of  inertia. In other words, it takes more energy to start the pendulum  swinging through the same angle and the pendulum will swing at a  slower rate as weight is moved away from the pivot. The amount of  moment of inertia produced in the pendulum is directly proportional to  the amount of weight but the distance from the weight to the pivot is  squared. In other words a doubling of weight produces a doubling of  the moment of inertia but a doubling of the distance from the pivot to  the weight means an 4 times greater moment of inertia.   Now then, if that weight is carried below the pivot, the larger the  angle of rotation the more that gravity tries to pull the weight back  toward the center, reducing the energy of the swing (referred to as  dampening due to gravity). But if the weight is above the pivot, the  further the pendulum swings, the more that gravity tries to cause the  pendulum to swing through a wider angle (which in yacht design physics  is called 'excitation').   So back to Mr. Swain's quote above, while it is true that increasing  the weight of a boat of a boat increases its moment of inertia,  slowing its motion, but moving that weight away from the center of  buoyancy in the right direction is far more important. Obviously the  heavier weight deck and hull produces a boat with a relatively high  moment of inertia. This weight (hull and deck) is carried mostly above  the center of buoyancy. In fact, in the Swain designs, with their deep  center of buoyancy, this weight has a very long lever arm. As a result  these boats would tend to have a fairly slow roll rate through a  relatively large roll angle. This affect is further exacerbated by the  comparatively heavy rigging being advocated. Excitation would be a  serious problem in a seaway. This makes for a comparatively  uncomfortable motion when compared to a more modern design that has  looked at comfort at sea.  Mr. Swain's physics is off when he says, "deep ballast makes for a  pendulum effect with a short roll, but a snappy one". That is  backwards. The large mass of a deep keel located far below the center  of buoyancy results in a slower roll rate and with gravity damping a  comparatively small roll angle. The large moment of inertia of a  modern deep keel boat means a more comfortable motion when compared to  pervious generation light weight boats with their higher center of  gravity.   More on the impact of hull form when I have a moment to continue  this discussion later today.    To answer Alex's question, Alex asked "What is the design name [of the  boat that I am in the process of buying] and who is the author of the  design?"   I had meant to answer that question in an earlier post. The boat is a  Farr 38 design number 72. Although these boats have done well on the  race course, design number 72 (Farr has designed a lot of 38 footers  and design 72 is the specific  38 foot design) was specifically  designed by Bruce Farr in the late 1970's for fast cruising. They were  designed for wood or composite construction. These boats have had a  very good record of distance cruising in some pretty harsh  environments. I don't advocate this as a design for everyone but its  ability to perform in a wide range of conditions certainly has  appealed to me.   Respectfully Jeff|
39|39|2001-05-02 20:16:20|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Swallowed posts!|Hi Alex and members,              I find the interaction, information and debate posted by the group to be interesting and helpful. Brents hands-on experiences and knowledge are especially welcome.      I have had a couple of posts disappear Alex and I wasn't sure if it was due to an error on my end; apparently I'm not alone.        I have a few 'photos of the interior framing/firring of a 36 footer built in Crofton some years ago which may be of interest. I don't have a scanner or the ability to send the images but if you'd like to use them I can mail them to you Alex. Are you still on Gabriola?       Regards         Richard|
40|40|2001-05-02 22:47:42|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Continuation of this morning's post.|The next point that I would like to address is Mr. Swains comment, "Twin keels also take the roll out of a boat. They have long been  used as roll dampers on all kinds of boats. The keel on a yacht is the  fixed point around which a boat rolls . Twin keels give a hull two  such fixed points , one dampens the rolling around the other."  Again I would like to discuss the physics of this as well. While it is  true that a boat pivots longitudinally around its keel, the keel on a  yacht is NOT the fixed point around which a boat rolls. Boats roll  around their center of buoyancy. Since the center of buoyancy moves as  the heels the point of rotation moves around as well. This is a point  of rotation is ideally above the keels. The keel(s) do act to dampen  the roll speed and reduce roll angle. Similar to the moment of inertia  of a boat due to gravity, the greater the keel area and the further  from the instantaneous roll angle that the keel area is located the  more roll resistance the keel exerts. So having having a keel that are  half as deep but twice the surface area woud be equal to a single  deeper keel with half the surface area of a deep keel. That all works  with the keel operating in clear water. The problem with using the  bilge keels (twin keels) is that one keel is actually operating in the  disturbed water downstream of the other as they roll which some what  reduces the second keels effectiveness for dampening. So we are  talking about an awful amount of surface area to achieve the same  dampening as a deeper fin. Surface area (wetted surface) is one of the  main sources of drag on a boat and adding the extra surface area  required to provide the dampening of a deeper fin certainly further  reduces the performance of the boat, especially upwind. While there  are wonderful practical reasons for building bilge keel boats, in  terms of performance they are a disaster creating huge amounts of drag  for less efficient lift. They are at their best when they have minimal  surface area and have efficient high aspect ractio configurations.   A quick answer to Alex's question "Is the Swain hull considered to be  a medium-displacement hull, or is it a heavy displacement hull?"  Using 17,000 lbs displacement for the 36 footer, (I don't know where  this number comes from if there has not been a set of lines drawings  prepared for these boats) the S36 comes in with a length (WL) to  Displacement ratio of 247. That would fall in the moderately heavy to  heavy category. These classifications are pretty arbitrary and have  slowly changed over time but they run something like : Ultralight=  Under 120, Very Light 120- 140, Light140-160, Moderately heavy 160 to  240, heavy 240 to 300, and very heavy over 300.   Respectfully Jeff|
41|40|2001-05-03 17:26:46|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Continuation of this morning's post.|-  A friend was crossing the Atlantic in a twin keeler, and found the  rolling was a fraction what it was on single keelers he'd sailed on.  When he got to the Carribean he ended up sailing alongside a sister  ship which had a single keel. He said that in the same following sea,  the single keeler rolled about twice as far as the twin keeled version  of the same hull. My experienc with my current vessel ( seven trips to  the Charlottes , one trip to Mexico and back, and one trip to Tonga  and back) has been about the same.What's your experience sailing twin  keeled boats accross oceans , Jeff?    Again, when theory contradicts experience, it's probably theory  that's wrong.   A boat only rolls around he centre of buoyancy if it has no keels . Suggesting that the large lateral resistance of one or two keels has  absolutely no effect on which point a boat rolls around is extremely  naive.As it's extremely hard to get a keel to move sideways through  the water ,it largely over rules any tendency for a hull to roll  around her centre of buoyancy.   When a boat heels, the leeward twin keel is dead upright, doubling  it's efficiency in terms of lateral resistance.Thus the total area of  twin keels needs to only equal the total area of a single keel to give  the same lateral resistance. Each twin keel is thus half the area of  the single keel .I use the same size piece of plate to build a single  keel as for twin keels. Over many successful boats this has worked  well.   There is thus no need for a single keeled boat to have more wetted  surface than a single keeled boat.It certainly has far less than a  full length keel.   My keels are angled out 25 degrees from the vertical. This minimises  the reaction between them as well as making the upright keel twice as  effective.   I believe that much of the reputation for poor performance in twin  keeled boats has been the result of people putting on keels the same  size as single keels  at right angles to the waterline .                                      Brent Swain   -- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote:  > The next point that I would like to address is Mr. Swains comment, > "Twin keels also take the roll out of a boat. They have long been  > used as roll dampers on all kinds of boats. The keel on a yacht is   the   > fixed point around which a boat rolls . Twin keels give a hull two  > such fixed points , one dampens the rolling around the other." >  > Again I would like to discuss the physics of this as well. While it   is   > true that a boat pivots longitudinally around its keel, the keel on   a   > yacht is NOT the fixed point around which a boat rolls. Boats roll  > around their center of buoyancy. Since the center of buoyancy moves   as   > the heels the point of rotation moves around as well. This is a   point   > of rotation is ideally above the keels. The keel(s) do act to dampen  > the roll speed and reduce roll angle. Similar to the moment of   inertia   > of a boat due to gravity, the greater the keel area and the further  > from the instantaneous roll angle that the keel area is located the  > more roll resistance the keel exerts. So having having a keel that   are   > half as deep but twice the surface area woud be equal to a single  > deeper keel with half the surface area of a deep keel. That all   works   > with the keel operating in clear water. The problem with using the  > bilge keels (twin keels) is that one keel is actually operating in   the   > disturbed water downstream of the other as they roll which some what  > reduces the second keels effectiveness for dampening. So we are  > talking about an awful amount of surface area to achieve the same  > dampening as a deeper fin. Surface area (wetted surface) is one of   the   > main sources of drag on a boat and adding the extra surface area  > required to provide the dampening of a deeper fin certainly further  > reduces the performance of the boat, especially upwind. While there  > are wonderful practical reasons for building bilge keel boats, in  > terms of performance they are a disaster creating huge amounts of   drag   > for less efficient lift. They are at their best when they have   minimal   > surface area and have efficient high aspect ractio configurations.  >  > A quick answer to Alex's question "Is the Swain hull considered to   be   > a medium-displacement hull, or is it a heavy displacement hull?" >  > Using 17,000 lbs displacement for the 36 footer, (I don't know where  > this number comes from if there has not been a set of lines drawings  > prepared for these boats) the S36 comes in with a length (WL) to  > Displacement ratio of 247. That would fall in the moderately heavy   to   > heavy category. These classifications are pretty arbitrary and have  > slowly changed over time but they run something like : Ultralight=  > Under 120, Very Light 120- 140, Light140-160, Moderately heavy 160   to   > 240, heavy 240 to 300, and very heavy over 300.  >  > Respectfully > Jeff |
42|42|2001-05-03 18:21:05|Alex & Kim Christie|twin keels|          Hello all,   Patrick Bray Yacht design http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca has  an excellent treatise on twin keels well worth looking at.   Ted Brewer also wrote an interesting and positive  article on twin keels some time back. I'll try and contact him for a copy of  this to post to the forum.   There is also some designs called "Boojum" which  employ twin keels (Chuck Merrell?). I'll dig the URL up for this and post it  when I find it. He talks about its roll-dampening effect.   Some of the older British twin keeled boats made it  to this coast in years gone by, and it seems that many conclusions about them  were made based on experiences with these older designs. It would be well worth  looking at recent advances in twin keel use in order to get a better picture of  how they work.   Alex|
43|43|2001-05-04 06:32:47|Shelley & Foster Price|Twin Keels Con't|          Hello GuysSome thoughts on this subject  from a person who has only sailed long keel boats, and knows didly-squat  about most things !!There is little doubt that most twin keel boats roll  less, however I doubt that any of the theories proposed here so far actually  explain it fully.Rolling can be reduced in most boats through sail trim,  and this I think points us to some of the answer, because you can't isolate  the action of either the sails or the keels in any boat.  The book "The  Symetry of Sailing" by Professor Ross Garret explains many of these sorts of  interactions.  If anyone is interested I will post up the relevant  section of the book on controlling roll.Secondly a possible explanation  for the reduced speed of twin keels (which is well documented in tank tests)  is the vortex drag that is caused by the disturbed water that flows off the  keel(s).  Again we can see this in the appendages in the air (sails)  where a two masted or multiple sail rig is never quiteas efficient to  windward as a single high aspect sail.   Our keels are in effect always "going to windward"  or generating lift in terms of their passage through the water.    Garrett theorises that this effect could mean that  a deep fin keel could dampen roll much more than an old timers long keel (like  my boat has - bless her!!)All boats are a compromise and it is about  finding the compromise best suited to you situation.  This means we can  all be right, especially if we honestly try to understand what others have  compromised.!!Any takers for these possible  explanationsRegards -Foster|
44|43|2001-05-04 14:16:19|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Twin Keels Con't|          Hello, (Hi Foster)   The twin keel question in this context is  probably one of those things which is very hard to really get to the bottom of  because actual use shows that the concept works well enough that people will  accept any minor drawbacks in return for their benefits. In the end, it comes  down to a matter of choices made by the builder-owner, of course. I guess it  comes down again to the "practical experience" vs "theory" conundrum.      For myself, I will choose the twin keel option for  two reasons: Reduced draft, and abilty to dry out on a falling tide. In these  parts, there are only limited and expensive resources for hauling a boat, so  having this option is very nice. Over time, the savings will buy me a SSB  radio or some other goodie. Not only that, it opens up anchorages in spectacular  places on this coast that most sailors in their right minds would never venture  into! My last cruiser was an 18 foot flat-bottomed centreboard boat (a Pelican),  and I guess I can't shake the desire to explore creeks! I am willing to  sacrifice a modicum of performance for that, while others are not.    I suppose in an area of limited tidal range (South  Pacific), twin keels may be less important.   Fixed, twin keels or "bilge fins" have been added  to deep sea fishing boats for roll-dampening action...something in  this?   Winston Bushnell, who sailed his 26 foot Swain hull  through the NW Passage, installed a centreboard. It would likely have been a  poor idea to have twin keels on a vessel which could get frozen in ice and be  crushed!  He was able to skid the boat out of the water on a big sheet of  steel (or something like that) for a winter-over in one of the villages up  north. I think arctic travel would be the only place where twin keels might  occasionally present a liability!   Alex         ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Shelley &    Foster Price    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 04, 2001 3:40 AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Twin Keels    Con't      Hello GuysSome thoughts on this subject    from a person who has only sailed long keel boats, and knows didly-squat    about most things !!There is little doubt that most twin keel boats    roll less, however I doubt that any of the theories proposed here so far    actually explain it fully.Rolling can be reduced in most boats through    sail trim, and this I think points us to some of the answer, because you    can't isolate the action of either the sails or the keels in any    boat.  The book "The Symetry of Sailing" by Professor Ross Garret    explains many of these sorts of interactions.  If anyone is    interested I will post up the relevant section of the book on controlling    roll.Secondly a possible explanation for the reduced speed of twin    keels (which is well documented in tank tests) is the vortex drag that is    caused by the disturbed water that flows off the keel(s).  Again we    can see this in the appendages in the air (sails) where a two masted or    multiple sail rig is never quiteas efficient to windward as a single high    aspect sail.       Our keels are in effect always "going to    windward" or generating lift in terms of their passage through the    water.     Garrett theorises that this effect could mean    that a deep fin keel could dampen roll much more than an old timers long keel    (like my boat has - bless her!!)All boats are a compromise and it is    about finding the compromise best suited to you situation.  This    means we can all be right, especially if we honestly try to understand    what others have compromised.!!Any takers for these possible    explanationsRegards -FosterTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@...To    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
45|43|2001-05-05 18:54:06|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Twin Keels Con't|Making the decision of whether to go for one keel or two was one of  the toughest decisions I had to make on my current boat , Having  sailed her for 17 years since, I would definitly go for twin keels  again, but the extra tankage in the single keel would always be  tempting.   In the eastern South Pacific the tidal range was 2 to three feet ,  and max 4 feet in Tonga. I could do some hull cleaning in Tonga , but  the ability to dry out wasn't much of an advantage. The 4 foot draft  was. At Fanning Island I was moored in 4 1/2 feet of water for months.   At Christmas Island I barely made it in, bouncing the bottom with  4ft draft. At Aitutaki I found the minimum going in was 5 1/2 ft and  hit bottom leaving,  too close to the north side of the pass.   When you get to Fiji you start to find 5 foot tides ,  greater in  New Caledonia.   If vortexes off the keels are a problem, perhaps the wings used on  twelve meter boats can minimise the problem. One must be careful to  design them so they don't macrame themselves to anchor rodes  .   The only way to do this is with a model.    On the subject of boat building materials, displacement , etc.Most  theories assume that cruisers have bottomless pockets and have endless  time as they plan to live forever.   No discussion of speed is realistic unless you include the time it  takes to build, buy, earn the money it takes to build or buy, or  otherwise get underway.   Thus many of the so called "Fast " high tech boats are some of the  slowest on the planet in accomplishing what they are supposedly for,  getting one's ass out cruising with a minimal waste of time and effort  . For people with limited cash and time left in their life, they are  extremely inefficient   The steel for my current 31 foot bilge keeler arrived on april 12th  . I launched her on May 12th, a month later.It took me 14 working days  to detail her and another ten days to paint her . After a break,it  took me ten days to rig her and I was sailing with a roughed in  plywood interior for $6,000  Canadian.   Someone who did it the "fast ,high tech" way ,and took the  neccessary time to earn the money to pay for it all, wouldn't sail  enough in a lifetime to make up for the time he was suckered into  wasting.To catch up he would have to sail at about 30 knots, 24 hours  a day for a long time.This still wouldn't add back the extra years you  lost to the building and buying process.   Besides , who says that life is five  times as enjoyable when you  are going five times as fast.    A friend had his steel delivered about two oclock thursday  afternoon and we had a 36 foot hull tacked together by 11PM friday  night, with the transom in, bulwark caps on and all longitudinal  stringers in.                                                              I've  tacked together the hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse, cockpit,  rudder, skeg and keel for a 36 footer in 6 days, starting from a pile  of steel on the ground,working outside with minimal equipment.The  steel cost about $6,000.   Try that with epoxy and carbon fibre.   If we define the boat as a pleasure boat, then the definition of  efficiency  would be the maximum output of pleasure for the minimum  amount of displeasure (work , expense, worry , lost time which could  be spent cruising ) then the more expensive, time consuming and hard  to get cruising in a boat becomes, the less efficient she is in  accomplishing what she was built for , pleasure.   Thus expensive so called "fast, high tech " boats are some of the  least efficient on the planet, unless you have endless amounts of  cash and time.   Spending too much cash and time aquiring a boat also adds to the  stress of sailing her .When things get a little hairy, you have your  lifes work at stake ,detracting greatly from the pleasure of cruising.  Framless steel boats not only represent less of an investment in time  and money , they have proven that they will take a lot more  punishment than other boats ,and thus have a fraction of the risk of  dammage or loss in the first place.    Nor are they slow. 160 miles a day to windward in a heavily loaded  36 footer is not slow. 14 days from Vancouver Island to Ensenada in a  heavily loaded 31ft twin keeler is not slow. 23 days from Hilo to  Vancouver Island , half of it to windward ,in a heavily loaded 31 ft  twin keeler is not slow.                                     Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Hello, (Hi Foster) >  > The twin keel question in this context is probably one of those   things which is very hard to really get to the bottom of because  actual use shows that the concept works well enough that people will  accept any minor drawbacks in return for their benefits. In the end,  it comes down to a matter of choices made by the builder-owner, of  course. I guess it comes down again to the "practical experience" vs  "theory" conundrum.    >  > For myself, I will choose the twin keel option for two reasons:   Reduced draft, and abilty to dry out on a falling tide. In these  parts, there are only limited and expensive resources for hauling a  boat, so having this option is very nice. Over time, the savings will  buy me a SSB radio or some other goodie. Not only that, it opens up  anchorages in spectacular places on this coast that most sailors in  their right minds would never venture into! My last cruiser was an 18  foot flat-bottomed centreboard boat (a Pelican), and I guess I can't  shake the desire to explore creeks! I am willing to sacrifice a  modicum of performance for that, while others are not.   >  > I suppose in an area of limited tidal range (South Pacific), twin   keels may be less important.  >  > Fixed, twin keels or "bilge fins" have been added to deep sea   fishing boats for roll-dampening action...something in this?  >  > Winston Bushnell, who sailed his 26 foot Swain hull through the NW   Passage, installed a centreboard. It would likely have been a poor  idea to have twin keels on a vessel which could get frozen in ice and  be crushed!  He was able to skid the boat out of the water on a big  sheet of steel (or something like that) for a winter-over in one of  the villages up north. I think arctic travel would be the only place  where twin keels might occasionally present a liability!  >  > Alex >  >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Shelley & Foster Price  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:40 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Twin Keels Con't >  >  >   Hello Guys >  >   Some thoughts on this subject from a person who has only sailed   long keel   >   boats, and knows didly-squat about most things !! >  >   There is little doubt that most twin keel boats roll less, however   I doubt that   >   any of the theories proposed here so far actually explain it   fully.  >  >   Rolling can be reduced in most boats through sail trim, and this I   think points   >   us to some of the answer, because you can't isolate the action of   either the   >   sails or the keels in any boat.  The book "The Symetry of Sailing"   by Professor   >   Ross Garret explains many of these sorts of interactions.  If   anyone is   >   interested I will post up the relevant section of the book on   controlling roll.  >  >   Secondly a possible explanation for the reduced speed of twin   keels (which is   >   well documented in tank tests) is the vortex drag that is caused   by the   >   disturbed water that flows off the keel(s).  Again we can see this   in the   >   appendages in the air (sails) where a two masted or multiple sail   rig is never quite  >   as efficient to windward as a single high aspect sail. >     >   Our keels are in effect always "going to windward" or generating   lift in terms of their passage through the water.    >   Garrett theorises that this effect could mean that a deep fin keel   could dampen roll much more than an old timers long keel (like my boat  has - bless her!!)  >  >   All boats are a compromise and it is about finding the compromise   best suited   >   to you situation.  This means we can all be right, especially if   we honestly   >   try to understand what others have compromised.!! >  >   Any takers for these possible explanations >  >  >   Regards - >   Foster >  >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@e... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@e...   >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of   Service.|
46|46|2001-05-06 06:32:38|Alex & Kim Christie|Boatbuilding philosophy: the clock is ticking, get on with it! --- |Dear group,  Brent has really touched on an excellent point here about being realistic as to what you can accomplish in a given life-span:   >....Most theories assume that cruisers have bottomless pockets and have  endless  >time as if they plan to live forever.   I'm feeling philosophical tonight, so forgive me for drifting off on the tangent of mortal nature of boatbuilder/cruisers. My basic premise here is that the boatbuilding/cruising mix should be something on the order of 10/90 (out of 100), not the other way around. But what do we see happening around us? 90/10? Sadly, yes. How can we fight that?  I have several Jay Benford books (small ships and cruising designs) which I used to read avidly, dreaming endlessly about my ideal deep sea ship. It was fun at the time, but eventually I got in a bit of a "funk" about these unattainable beauties (sounds like just about every lad's experience in high school, eh?...). Why? Well, here were cruising boats which were way beyond my means at the best of times, and would take the earnings of an entire lifetime, maybe two lifetimes, to attain, with no money left to actually sail the thing! The cruel absurdity of my yearnings for such things eventually caught up with me, and nearly put me off the idea of a cruising boat. Much later in life, I attended boatbuilding school with much fervor, nay-- a vengeance, hoping to circumvent at least one technical barrier to attaining my dreamboats. But I could see that even with training I faced a long building schedule for even the smaller of available cruising designs, due to their complexity. 'Tweren't enough!  Ted Brewer (hey, I'm not just name-dropping here, bear with me!), during one of our boatschool field trips to his place last year, showed us recently completed plans for a wonderful little 34' steel cruising cutter he had worked up for a client. I fine, rugged ship of the sea with all the compromises in the right places. It was the best of Brewer and his lifetime of experience in the field, of this I assure you. Though we were learning wooden boatbuilding, we apprentices were moved by the design's "rightness" on paper.  One student popped the question, "how much do you think something like that is giong to cost the client to have built?".  One of our instructors looked it over, and between Brewer and he, estimated something on the order of $145,000 Canadian. Stunned silence around the room. For that boat, all the labour, new engine, everything ready to go off-shore. Probably a very reasonable estimate in the mainstream boatbuilding market for a custom built yacht like this, turn-key. But I doubt that anyone of us would be sailing over the horizon in it in the near or even distant future, not on our workmen's wages. Ever heard of a rich shipwright? It was very sobering, to say the least.  Who hasn't seen the bleak advertisement in their local rag: "53' Steel Ketch hull, engine, decks, etc. Ill-health forces sale." We can write the story behind this one: The unfortunate fellow first got to a stage in his life where he thought he could afford such a project/dream (say, with early retirement), he starts his project with great enthusiasm and money, only to find it taking untold years to complete, his age advancing, his wife leaving (this happens, believe it), and himeself ultimately bogged down, saddled with a great steel behemoth he cannot complete due to his poor health. It is very sad to see, very sad, and I feel for the man's unfortunate lot, while fearing greatly the same trap myself.  On a sort of sunnier yet still foreboding note, but still sobering, there is a website I visited which is hot-linked from the Bruce Roberts site, I think it is called, www.homeboatbuilder.com or something like that. I shouldn't have named it (they'll hate me for it), and I mean no ill will,  but there is a boat a-building on that site called "Trinity", some 65 or so feet long. It has been an ongoing project since 1988! 12, no 13 years, and not launched. No mention of selling it due to ill-health, and I applaud them for having the stamina to stick with it, so Bravo...But 13 years???? A helluva lot can happen in a decade and bit, don't we all know it?  13 years of not cruising. 13 completely un-recoverable years down the tube. 13 years with a heart attack on top.  My wise father, a sailor himself who passed from this world 2 years ago, told me time and again, "Alex, there are two kinds of people in this world: people who build boats, and people who sail them."  I tried to prove him wrong, but eventually I saw what he was saying. If you love building in and of itself as a process, then build a replica of Noah's ark, the Battleship Potemkin, or a Navy Destroyer, working on it your whole life, and be happy with it. But if you are more serious about cruising, then you have to do what you can to minimize the building time and maximize your cruising time before the lights go out, plain and simple.  Brent's boats are the first kind of design I've seen which not only gets the jump on the building process, but sees it through to the end by offering time and money saving ideas throughout, doing it all more economically than any other system that I have ever examined. It is very hard for any other steel or other material boatbuilding process to compete on a time-cost benefit analysis with Brent's system, yet still yield an end product that will see you safely to hell and back the way his boats have done for many people over a number of decades.  I hate to sound so pontifical; what are your thoughts about all this?  How do you respond to these 3 AM ravings? ("Get to bed"?!)  Alex|
47|47|2001-05-06 20:27:53|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Carpe Diem!|Hi Alex, I concur whole heartedly with the sentiments expressed in your 3a.m. musings. I don't know your age but have a sneaking feeling I'm a few years ahead of you on that slippery slope and from what I have learned you seem to have summed up nicely the dilemma facing we dreamers.      It is an unfortunate truism that time and age will nibble away at the yearnings of all of those who wish to feel the shudder of their own little ship as she rises to meet an ocean swell unless the act of aquiring that goal is begun as soon as possible.      Brents designs and building methods can help anyone with the attainment of a reasonably priced, strong and proven stout cruising vessel, and his philosophy of keeping it simple is so valid, especially in todays material driven society. Far better to have been out there in simplicity than to have hung around wishing and hoping for the latest in gadgetry and hull material.      I'm sure we've all read the books that sparked our imaginations, Hitchcock, Purdey, Griffith etc. and there seems to be an underlying attitude amongst all the well known cruisers that it's better to do it in whatever style you can afford than not do it at all.       I believe that Brent has brought the dream closer to many of us than otherwise would be so as the number of his designs under construction and sailing the coast will attest.              Regards,         Richard|
48|48|2001-05-06 22:12:31|pan@boatbuilding.com|Origami 1 Sheet|Hi all, I have been very interested in the steel origami concept.  It is very  interesting.  I have developed a little boat made from one sheet of  plywood.  I call the boat the origami pirate ship but in fact it is  not folded but simply kerfed and rounded.  I guess this doesn't count  as origami but it was a fun boat to do with my grandson.  You can see  the boat at http://www.travelback.com/Origami.htm  Have a nice day, Les|
49|47|2001-05-07 00:20:53|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Carpe Diem!|          Hi Richard,   Thank you for your words.   At the tender age of 35, I'll admit I am already  feeling myself walking the slippery slope of mortality! A patch of grey here,  another wrinkle there, more of this and that every day stirs me to get to sea  before the Reaper comes for harvest time. If building a Brent boat is the  quickest and most economical means to get ocean-bound again, then it is no  longer a matter of the heart; it is the execution of pure logic.     Further assistance to "getting on with it" was  recently provided to me by Brent, who suggested that I get a materials list for  my boat, and to start right away scrounging bits and pieces needed for hull  construction. If you have such a list, then you are "programmed" with a template  in your mind for things like lengths of schedule 40 ss pipe, or sheets of scrap  alumimum for hatches and aft bulk-head pilot house door, etc. If it is on your  mind, then you'll snap up the real "finds" you'd otherwise pass by.     The nifty aspect of steel boat building is that the  material is not specialized; the materials could be found anywhere there is a  scrap metals yard, or industrial activity creating surplus. Oil field  businesses, welding shops, sheetmetal shops, and surely a myriad of other places  are excellent sources of steel odd and ends.   Alex|
50|50|2001-05-07 11:39:35|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Pirate ship!|Hi Les, You've done a lovely job on that little ship for your grandson. Perhaps you've laid the foundation for a future Swain fan!     Regards,        Richard|
51|48|2001-05-10 01:52:41|Alex Christie|Re: Origami 1 Sheet|Hi Les,  Neat little boat you have put together. For another twist on the  theme, have you had a look at the Origami Dinghy in the "Files"  section? Made of aluminum, it is one tough little skiff, and has a  wheel on the skeg to allow it to be dragged across mudflats or other  non-liquid surfaces easily.   Regards,  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
52|52|2001-05-10 10:07:22|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|"Life too short to dance with an ugly person" Vs."Go ugly early"-An|(This is a very long post so you may want to print it out for  convenience)  "Life too short to dance with an ugly guy". Vs. "Go ugly early"- An  alternative viewpoint.  Annapolis, where I live, is a very serious sailing town. There are  20,000 boats registered to one creek in town alone. I joke that no  matter how rare a particular design might be sooner or later one will  pass through town. Men and woman take their sailing seriously in this  place, whether they cruise or race or just plain daysail. Sailing is  as much a part of daily chatter as would be traffic in a city or  weather to a farmer. Innocent expressions creep into our language from  all kinds of sources only to become sailing expressions. (Please  excuse the sexist choice of examples but since these examples have  crept in the Annapolis sailing vocabulary I figure they are fair  game.)   A few years back there was a very successful race boat called 'Twisted  Sisters' in town raced by a an all woman crew. On their boom was  painted "Life's too short to dance with an ugly guy". This expression  slipped into local sailing usage to mean, that if you are going to do  something don't do it with junk. Its used this way, you are out to buy  a new block and you are standing there looking at a Brand 'H' block  and a Brand 'X' block. Brand 'X' is 20% less expensive, but you know  that Brand 'H' has less friction, actually performs to its safe  working loads, and has a lifetime warrantee (no matter what the  published warrantee says), so you say to yourself, 'life's to short to  sail with an ugly woman." And you grab the Harken and buy it. You do  so knowing that when you take that knockdown, and the spinnaker takes  a wave, you have a better chance of the block holding than failing.  And even if the block is never stressed that hard, you wrap up a day  of sailing less tired because you haven't been fighting with a higher  friction block.   On the flip side, there is the expression, 'Go ugly early." This comes  from a bad comedy routine about a guy who'd go to bars to meet woman.  He would start early in the evening with the best looking woman in the  bar but after an evening or rejection, he'd end up going home late at  night with the ugliest woman in the bar. He'd miss the late night news  and would wake up completely exhausted the next day. He decided that  he was better off walking into the bar and picking the worst looking  woman in the bar and "Going Ugly Early." In sailing, 'Go ugly early'  is used a lot of ways. In racing, you "might go ugly" early by  choosing to tack early across an adverse current early knowing that  eventually the current will get worse and cost more VMG to cross. But  it is also used to refer to the folks who always try to get by with  cobbled together gear. On one hand they are certainly out there before  they would be with better equipment but in racing they are rarely in  the money and in cruising they always seem to be broken down somewhere  putting the old girl back together. Even more to the point, when they  go to sell these "cheap boats" they often end up taking a bigger hit  than the guy who spent a little more in the first place.   As long as I am speaking in hackneyed sayings, I understand Alex's  basic point. I am very much a believer in the Welsh (or Scottish)  saying, "You are dead for a very long time", which is the Welsh  (Scottish) equivalent to seize the day. (Especially since my 50th  birthday and as we all know life is 'like a roll of toilet paper, it  runs out fastest toward the end' to quote Andy Rooney) But there are a  lot of ways to achieve that noble goal.   This forum seems to take it for granted that the only way to achieve  that goal is to build your own cheap boat, and the only legitimate  form of cheap boat is one that has the hull coming together quickly,  no matter what other the sailing, construction time, economic or other  compromises that are implied. I doubt that I will sway many minds here  but I would like to play 'Devil's Advocate' here and point out the  options that get glossed over.   Why build new? There are a lot of great boats out there at prices well  within the price range you are throwing around that would get you out  there a lot sooner than building your own and perhaps for less money.  Speaking for myself I have been able to do a lot of sailing in my life  on a real shoestring. I am not one of those people who advocates, the  'just throw money at it" approach. I can't afford to. I have almost  always ''Gone ugly early". From my first boat, a small sloop bought  when I was 14 with savings from odd jobs, to my $400 Folkboat that I  restored and lived on, to the 1939 Stadel cutter that I bought for  $2500, restored in half a dozen months, and which my Dad or I owned  for the next 12 years I (I left it with him when I went back to school  for my master degree) and so on to my current boat a 4000 lb. kevlar  and vinylester 28 footer that works well for my need or the 10,500 lb.  38 footer that I am currently negotiating on, a boat that has  previously 'been out there' for years with previous couple who owned  her; I have owned boats that can be cruised and single-handed for 32  of the 38 years that I have been sailing and none have cost as much as  you folks are thinking of spending on building the boats shown on  these pages (the Pirate Dinghy excluded- nice job by the way).   I must say that I prefer coastal cruising and that is what I have done  the most of my sailing life. I have been blessed with having an  occupation that I would probably enjoy doing as a hobby but it does  keep my feet nailed down, so that long distance cruising is not in my  immediate schedule. But that has never stopped me from sailing and  sailing cheaply. I dare say that I know a lot of people who are "out  there" who spend less time in a year actually out on the water sailing  than I get to sail year in and year out.   I have done so by finding examples of venerable designs, in easily  'restorable' shape (Which sometimes comes down to a simple hull wax  job, varnishing and painting down below, and cleaning the cushions),  and getting out there and going sailing. When I have gone to resell  these boas they have held their value and most have sold for more than  I had in them. By buying carefully I have done well. My current boat,  the worst case of the bunch, is probably going to sell for $3000 less  than I have in her after 12 years of sailing the living daylights out  her.   Let me give you some examples of why I think that if you are in a  "Carpe Diem" frame of mind buying a good used boat might make more  sense. One of the things I do with my spare time is help people, who  are looking to buy a used boat, find the right boat for them. I am not  a broker. I don't get paid for this; I am just a guy who likes to be  helpful. One guy I helped out bought a Pearson Rhodes 41 for less than  20K. These are boats designed by one of this country's greatest  designers at the height of his career. Rhodes 41's are boats that have  gone everywhere. They have fallen a bit out of favor because they  typically have a gas engine. This boat needed new standing rigging, an  engine rebuild, the Aries Windvane needed reconditioning, he wanted a  new mainsail, and the interior was a cosmetically mess.   In six months the guy refinished the existing interior, recovered the  cushions (which were the second set and were not in bad shape),  rebuilt the engine, and bought a new mainsail. He had planned to build  his own mainsail but actually ended up having a new one built for less  by taking advantage of "off season" pricing from a major loft. With  all of that, he ended up with a highly regarded 41 foot cruising boat,  still had less than $35K in the boat and he certainly had less time  and money in her than it would have taken to build a boat of that  displacement, no matter how crude or ingenious.   Another example was a fellow I exchanged email with, who had bought a  Peterson 44 (the cruising boat) that had sunk in her slip (check those  so-called 'bronze' seacocks). The prior owner was under insured and so  was putting the boat back together by himself when his health and  funds failed. This boat was torn apart but the prior owner had bought  almost everything needed to put the old girl back together had all  neatly tagged and in boxes. My friend chose to buy a short block for  the diesel rather than reuse the old one but all of the other parts  were there. The interior cleaned up nicely. All told the project was  less than a year with the guy holding down a full time job. He left to  go cruising with something less than $50K in the boat. When he got  back he sold the boat for something over $100K and used the money to  buy another project boat, which he now owns free and clear and ended  up with a healthier bank account to boot.   I have a friend in North Carolina who has a neat 36 foot cruising boat  that he picked up for $17K. She did not have an engine or electrical  system at all and so was a real 'white elephant'. He bought an  outboard, and an array of solar panels and for less than $20K is all  set to go cruising.   A couple years back a guy stayed with me while he was surveying a boat  here on the Chesapeake. The boat was a 41 or so foot steel hulled  sloop (Roberts design) that he was buying for just over 20K. She was a  mess. The worst problem for prior potential buyers was the bottom  plating which had "disappeared one night when the guy was tied up next  to a power cruiser with a bad electrical system and the Air  Conditioning running." Replacing the bottom plating was made more  difficult because that the interior was screwed and glued. (If you  build a steel boat, build a removable interior.) But after paying a  professional to do the welding, and rebuilding the interior himself a  year or so later he had a solid boat.    To me if you want to go sailing*now*, then building a boat is not the  way to go. BUT if you feel that you must build your own boat, (and I  often think that I would get a kick out of that,) then at least build  something that has resale value in the market place. Pick a design by  a respected designer that has national or international recognition.  Pick a design that fits some kind of norm in terms of hull form, rig,  and keel types. Pick a design that has charisma. These things do not  add as much time and cost as they increase the sailing ability or  resale value. Build the boat with decent workmanship and a reasonable  level of finish and you might break even when you go to sell.   One last point about this "Origami Boat" concept. It appears to  produce a hull and deck in a very short time. You quickly have  something that 'looks' like a boat. But even on the most time  consuming of boat building methods, traditional plank on frame wooden  construction, the hull itself is only about 20% to 30% of the  construction time. Building a decent interior, rig and appendages, and  adding deck and interior hardware, installing the electrical system,  plumbing, engine, shaft log, and tanks, and all of the bits and pieces  that it takes to make a finished vessel is where the real time to  build a boat lies. I question the wisdom of building a building a hull  form that is seriously compromised by the construction technique  chosen for construction.   Before firing off the post saying "what about so-and so who likes his  version of the "this or that 35" and sailed her around the world",  consider the mass of strange and ill suited boats that are presently  circling the globe. Each person can justify their choice and few  parents think they have the strangest child in the classroom.   To those who are building one of these, I know that I can't change  your mind. BUT to those who are sorting out their decision whether to  build and what to build, I really suggest that you get out and sail on  a lot of different boats. Look at what is out there and understand  where current distance cruiser design thinking has taken us. Today, a  modern cruising 36 footer typically can tick off a steady 8 knots to  windward in breezes over 10 knots, and reach at speeds of 10 to 12  knots. They can sail down into wind ranges below 5 knots and are more  comfortable and safer than their forebearers when the sea state gets  ugly and the winds have lost their sense of humor. Seize the day, but  don't mistake 'rapid incompetence' for 'decisive action'. Do your  homework, spend a little extra time to do the job well, and you will  enjoy the fruits of your labors for a very long time.   Respectfully Jeff|
53|52|2001-05-11 13:40:20|svbanshee@yahoo.com|Re: ?"Life too short to dance with an ugly person" |Jeff,  You hate steel boats; I think we get it by now  :)  Alot of people I know around here sail these boats. They are really  happy with them and won't give them up, despite what anyone else's  opinions are, and they've made many successful offshore trips and  back. That in itself IS worth something, like it or not. It is a bit  like the theory which states that bumblebees cannot fly -- yet  bumblebees continue to do so. You can't argue much with success.   These boats aren't on the market very often because people hang on to  them. When they do sell, they don't go cheap.  As for the "ugly" connotation, everything is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? There is no reason a steel boat cannot be  beautiful, and I for one think the Swain boats look great.   As for building vs buying, maybe the east coast is crawling with  deals to be had, but on the west coast there is just a load of old  fibreglass junk from the 70's for the prices he is talking about.  When there is little to choose from, building your own boat is a good  way out.  Last point: I don't think Jeff has sailed out here on the west coast  which is infested with deadheads from log booms. If he did, he might  think again about steel. You sail at your own risk in a boat which  can't survive contact with one of these things at full speed. While I  keep an eye out for them, some of them are hiding just below the  surface. I don't lose any sleep over it with a steel boat.  Tasha|
54|52|2001-05-11 14:30:16|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: "Life too short to dance with an ugly person" Vs."Go ugly early|Many of my clients are building a boat precisely because the have  done it in the "bargain" fixer uppers for too long and are tired of  dealing with other peoples screwups . The notion that "you only get  what you pay for " is a line which has been used to lure in suckers by  sleazy used car salesmen and boat salesmen for a long time .It assumes  that the quality of anything you buy is always invariably reflected in  the pricetag . Perhaps someone should tell consumer advocates like  Ralph Nader that they are wasting their time testing products and that  all they have to do to determine the quality of what they are buying  is to read the price tag. If you want to double the quality of what  you are selling , all you have to do is double the price.   There is such a thing as a ripoff Jeff. Sorry to blow your illusions  .Wanna buy some oceanfront property in Kansas ,Jeff?   Jeff uses the  term "ugly" in describing an economically built boat,  yet some of the light displacement boats he advocates such as the  Beneteau "hunchbacks " are to my eye some of the ugliest things  afloat, for a pricetag of a quarter of a million dollars plus .   Anyone can see from the photos Alex has posted that my origami boats  are some of the best looking boats out there, something many people  often tell me. Unlike some of the fully framed boats, they are fair  enough to  be given a high gloss finish without an ounce of filler ,  and still look as fair as a fibreglass boat out of a mold .   While advocating safety concerns, Jeff also advocates light  displacement boats which lose all stability at around 120 degrees of  heel, then capsize and stay that way.Read "Seaworthyness, the  forgotten factor "by Marchage.   While an estimated 2500 cargo containers fall off ships every year,  the light displacement boats he advocates can't survive a collision  with one in rough conditions .With the stuff I've hit at night at sea,  I wouldn't be here if I'd been sailing the type of boats he advocates.   One of my boats T boned a steel barge at 8 knots with no dammage.Try  that with the fixer uppers he's mentioned .   One often reads of vessels and lives lost at sea which wouldn't have  been lost if they'd been in steel hulls.   Part of the reason the rusted out Roberts hull he talks about,  rusted out , was probably because it was plated with lighter steel to  allow for the weight of transverse frames .   The other reason was probably because of the amount of  disinformation around about steel boats.   It's often been said that most steel boats tend to rust from the  inside out. It's also been said that there is no need to paint a boat  on the inside because the sprayfoam insulation is adequate protection  for the steel. DUHHHH.   The reason that steel boats tend to rust from the inside out is  precisely BECAUSE people don't believe it's neccessary to paint the  inside.   Give a hull three coats of epoxy tar over wheelabraded and cold  galvanizing primed  steel and you won't have a problem there in a  lifetime.   My last boat is 25 years old now and the hull is as good as the day  I built her.   You can tell where the foam has separated from the steel by dragging  your fingernails over the foam and listening for the hollow  sound.Where it sounds hollow, dig the foam out and look. If there's no  paint under the foam, don't buy the boat.    The rather expensive , fully framed steel boats built in BC called  the "Foulkes 39" are notoriuos for having unpainted hull interiors and  are likewise notorious for rusting from the inside out.Many surveyors  will never pass a boat which hasn't been painted inside.   This is another reason why people with a lot of experience prefer to  build my designs rather than buy a boat. They know exactly how things  were done.   As for the time it takes , the steel for one of my 36 footers   arrived the beginning of february, the boat was launced the 26th of  april, the couple moved aboard the may 24th long weekend and went for  their first cruise,and they set sail for mexico that fall with a new  boat and no worries about how it was put together or what some  previous ownner had done.    Jeff uses the word "crude" yet when people who have built steel  boats using the traditional method of framed boatbuilding see their  first origami boat go together , they describe the traditional way as  very crude and outdated. Given the amount of complexity and distortion  , they also consider the results of traditional methods extremely  crude.   A friend who built a 40 ft Brewer  using traditional methods had to  us two 45 gallon drums of fairing compound, much cruder than a fair  frameless hull which needs no fairing whatsoever to achieve a much  greater degree of fairness.   The suggestion that a hull is only %20 of the total applies only to  non metal hulls .   It takes me roughly 100 hours to pull a shell together , 100 hours  of welding, and 100 hours to detail a boat. Detailing includes tanks.  engine mounts , cleats, mooring bitts, hatches, handrails, lifelines,  pushpit and pulpit, self steering,inside steering, thru hulls ,mast  step, etc, etc, the sort of things one has to think about and shop for  after buying a fibreglass hull. By the time I've detailed a boat, it's  ready for painting and launching.   A stainless cleat which could cost $40 for a fibreglass boat can be  made of stainless and welded down for under a dollars worth of  material, and is far stronger an less prone to ever cause problems.   On the subject of resale value , perhaps a quote from my book is in  order. RESALE VALUE   One often sees people spending large amounts of time and money on  teak, stainless, expensive hardware, etc, in  the hope of increasing  thr "resale value". of a boat. Sadly they fail to understand the  difference between resale value and resale price.   While" resale  price" is how much you can get for a boat,"resale value" is the  difference between what you can  get and what she cost you in the  first place.   It's very easy to spend an extra 40,000 dollars on a boat in order  to increase the resale price by 20,000 dollars , a loss of 20,000  dollars , not counting time spent and lost cruising time.Several of my  boats , built on a low budget have been sold for anywhere from two to  five times what their owners have spent on them. As the price goes  higher, the gap between cost and resale narrows , as does the choice  of potential buyers, till spending moe eventually becomes a losing  proposition ."     One of my 36 footers was built for 17,000 dollars and sold for  65,000 dollars. One of my 31 footers was built for $7,000 and sold for  $20,000. Another was built for $15,000 and sold for $30,000. A 29 was  built for $4,000 and sold for $23,000.     The self steering "airies gear " Jeff mentions sells for around  $1500, and I'm told needs at least 6 knots of wind to work. The one I  build costs about $15 worth of material and works in 2 knots of wind ,  and has never had a breakdown.   Except for a broken skeg when one of my boats was pounding on a lee  shore in huge surf , none of my boats have suffered any serious  structural problems, despite several circumnavigations, a single  season passage through the northwest passage ( where the only dammage  was a set of broken dentures on the skipper when it hit the  underwater portion of an iceberg at full speed ).   Last winter I sailed from BC to Tonga and back in a single year .  Nothing broke except the oilpan on mu isuzu diesel, which I didn't  build .Such problem free voyages are almost unheard of on the type of  boats Jeffy advocates.                                      Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > (This is a very long post so you may want to print it out for  > convenience) >  > "Life too short to dance with an ugly guy". Vs. "Go ugly early"- An  > alternative viewpoint. >  > Annapolis, where I live, is a very serious sailing town. There are  > 20,000 boats registered to one creek in town alone. I joke that no  > matter how rare a particular design might be sooner or later one  will  > pass through town. Men and woman take their sailing seriously in  this  > place, whether they cruise or race or just plain daysail. Sailing is  > as much a part of daily chatter as would be traffic in a city or  > weather to a farmer. Innocent expressions creep into our language  from  > all kinds of sources only to become sailing expressions. (Please  > excuse the sexist choice of examples but since these examples have  > crept in the Annapolis sailing vocabulary I figure they are fair  > game.)  >  > A few years back there was a very successful race boat called  'Twisted  > Sisters' in town raced by a an all woman crew. On their boom was  > painted "Life's too short to dance with an ugly guy". This  expression  > slipped into local sailing usage to mean, that if you are going to  do  > something don't do it with junk. Its used this way, you are out to  buy  > a new block and you are standing there looking at a Brand 'H' block  > and a Brand 'X' block. Brand 'X' is 20% less expensive, but you know  > that Brand 'H' has less friction, actually performs to its safe  > working loads, and has a lifetime warrantee (no matter what the  > published warrantee says), so you say to yourself, 'life's to short  to  > sail with an ugly woman." And you grab the Harken and buy it. You do  > so knowing that when you take that knockdown, and the spinnaker  takes  > a wave, you have a better chance of the block holding than failing.  > And even if the block is never stressed that hard, you wrap up a day  > of sailing less tired because you haven't been fighting with a  higher  > friction block.  >  > On the flip side, there is the expression, 'Go ugly early." This  comes  > from a bad comedy routine about a guy who'd go to bars to meet  woman.  > He would start early in the evening with the best looking woman in  the  > bar but after an evening or rejection, he'd end up going home late  at  > night with the ugliest woman in the bar. He'd miss the late night  news  > and would wake up completely exhausted the next day. He decided that  > he was better off walking into the bar and picking the worst looking  > woman in the bar and "Going Ugly Early." In sailing, 'Go ugly early'  > is used a lot of ways. In racing, you "might go ugly" early by  > choosing to tack early across an adverse current early knowing that  > eventually the current will get worse and cost more VMG to cross.  But  > it is also used to refer to the folks who always try to get by with  > cobbled together gear. On one hand they are certainly out there  before  > they would be with better equipment but in racing they are rarely in  > the money and in cruising they always seem to be broken down  somewhere  > putting the old girl back together. Even more to the point, when  they  > go to sell these "cheap boats" they often end up taking a bigger hit  > than the guy who spent a little more in the first place.  >  > As long as I am speaking in hackneyed sayings, I understand Alex's  > basic point. I am very much a believer in the Welsh (or Scottish)  > saying, "You are dead for a very long time", which is the Welsh  > (Scottish) equivalent to seize the day. (Especially since my 50th  > birthday and as we all know life is 'like a roll of toilet paper, it  > runs out fastest toward the end' to quote Andy Rooney) But there are  a  > lot of ways to achieve that noble goal.  >  > This forum seems to take it for granted that the only way to achieve  > that goal is to build your own cheap boat, and the only legitimate  > form of cheap boat is one that has the hull coming together quickly,  > no matter what other the sailing, construction time, economic or  other  > compromises that are implied. I doubt that I will sway many minds  here  > but I would like to play 'Devil's Advocate' here and point out the  > options that get glossed over.  >  > Why build new? There are a lot of great boats out there at prices  well  > within the price range you are throwing around that would get you  out  > there a lot sooner than building your own and perhaps for less  money.  > Speaking for myself I have been able to do a lot of sailing in my  life  > on a real shoestring. I am not one of those people who advocates,  the  > 'just throw money at it" approach. I can't afford to. I have almost  > always ''Gone ugly early". From my first boat, a small sloop bought  > when I was 14 with savings from odd jobs, to my $400 Folkboat that I  > restored and lived on, to the 1939 Stadel cutter that I bought for  > $2500, restored in half a dozen months, and which my Dad or I owned  > for the next 12 years I (I left it with him when I went back to  school  > for my master degree) and so on to my current boat a 4000 lb. kevlar  > and vinylester 28 footer that works well for my need or the 10,500  lb.  > 38 footer that I am currently negotiating on, a boat that has  > previously 'been out there' for years with previous couple who owned  > her; I have owned boats that can be cruised and single-handed for 32  > of the 38 years that I have been sailing and none have cost as much  as  > you folks are thinking of spending on building the boats shown on  > these pages (the Pirate Dinghy excluded- nice job by the way).  >  > I must say that I prefer coastal cruising and that is what I have  done  > the most of my sailing life. I have been blessed with having an  > occupation that I would probably enjoy doing as a hobby but it does  > keep my feet nailed down, so that long distance cruising is not in  my  > immediate schedule. But that has never stopped me from sailing and  > sailing cheaply. I dare say that I know a lot of people who are "out  > there" who spend less time in a year actually out on the water  sailing  > than I get to sail year in and year out.  >  > I have done so by finding examples of venerable designs, in easily  > 'restorable' shape (Which sometimes comes down to a simple hull wax  > job, varnishing and painting down below, and cleaning the cushions),  > and getting out there and going sailing. When I have gone to resell  > these boas they have held their value and most have sold for more  than  > I had in them. By buying carefully I have done well. My current  boat,  > the worst case of the bunch, is probably going to sell for $3000  less  > than I have in her after 12 years of sailing the living daylights  out  > her.  >  > Let me give you some examples of why I think that if you are in a  > "Carpe Diem" frame of mind buying a good used boat might make more  > sense. One of the things I do with my spare time is help people, who  > are looking to buy a used boat, find the right boat for them. I am  not  > a broker. I don't get paid for this; I am just a guy who likes to be  > helpful. One guy I helped out bought a Pearson Rhodes 41 for less  than  > 20K. These are boats designed by one of this country's greatest  > designers at the height of his career. Rhodes 41's are boats that  have  > gone everywhere. They have fallen a bit out of favor because they  > typically have a gas engine. This boat needed new standing rigging,  an  > engine rebuild, the Aries Windvane needed reconditioning, he wanted  a  > new mainsail, and the interior was a cosmetically mess.  >  > In six months the guy refinished the existing interior, recovered  the  > cushions (which were the second set and were not in bad shape),  > rebuilt the engine, and bought a new mainsail. He had planned to  build  > his own mainsail but actually ended up having a new one built for  less  > by taking advantage of "off season" pricing from a major loft. With  > all of that, he ended up with a highly regarded 41 foot cruising  boat,  > still had less than $35K in the boat and he certainly had less time  > and money in her than it would have taken to build a boat of that  > displacement, no matter how crude or ingenious.  >  > Another example was a fellow I exchanged email with, who had bought  a  > Peterson 44 (the cruising boat) that had sunk in her slip (check  those  > so-called 'bronze' seacocks). The prior owner was under insured and  so  > was putting the boat back together by himself when his health and  > funds failed. This boat was torn apart but the prior owner had  bought  > almost everything needed to put the old girl back together had all  > neatly tagged and in boxes. My friend chose to buy a short block for  > the diesel rather than reuse the old one but all of the other parts  > were there. The interior cleaned up nicely. All told the project was  > less than a year with the guy holding down a full time job. He left  to  > go cruising with something less than $50K in the boat. When he got  > back he sold the boat for something over $100K and used the money to  > buy another project boat, which he now owns free and clear and ended  > up with a healthier bank account to boot.  >  > I have a friend in North Carolina who has a neat 36 foot cruising  boat  > that he picked up for $17K. She did not have an engine or electrical  > system at all and so was a real 'white elephant'. He bought an  > outboard, and an array of solar panels and for less than $20K is all  > set to go cruising.  >  > A couple years back a guy stayed with me while he was surveying a  boat  > here on the Chesapeake. The boat was a 41 or so foot steel hulled  > sloop (Roberts design) that he was buying for just over 20K. She was  a  > mess. The worst problem for prior potential buyers was the bottom  > plating which had "disappeared one night when the guy was tied up  next  > to a power cruiser with a bad electrical system and the Air  > Conditioning running." Replacing the bottom plating was made more  > difficult because that the interior was screwed and glued. (If you  > build a steel boat, build a removable interior.) But after paying a  > professional to do the welding, and rebuilding the interior himself  a  > year or so later he had a solid boat.   >  > To me if you want to go sailing*now*, then building a boat is not  the  > way to go. BUT if you feel that you must build your own boat, (and I  > often think that I would get a kick out of that,) then at least  build  > something that has resale value in the market place. Pick a design  by  > a respected designer that has national or international recognition.  > Pick a design that fits some kind of norm in terms of hull form,  rig,  > and keel types. Pick a design that has charisma. These things do not  > add as much time and cost as they increase the sailing ability or  > resale value. Build the boat with decent workmanship and a  reasonable  > level of finish and you might break even when you go to sell.  >  > One last point about this "Origami Boat" concept. It appears to  > produce a hull and deck in a very short time. You quickly have  > something that 'looks' like a boat. But even on the most time  > consuming of boat building methods, traditional plank on frame  wooden  > construction, the hull itself is only about 20% to 30% of the  > construction time. Building a decent interior, rig and appendages,  and  > adding deck and interior hardware, installing the electrical system,  > plumbing, engine, shaft log, and tanks, and all of the bits and  pieces  > that it takes to make a finished vessel is where the real time to  > build a boat lies. I question the wisdom of building a building a  hull  > form that is seriously compromised by the construction technique  > chosen for construction.  >  > Before firing off the post saying "what about so-and so who likes  his  > version of the "this or that 35" and sailed her around the world",  > consider the mass of strange and ill suited boats that are presently  > circling the globe. Each person can justify their choice and few  > parents think they have the strangest child in the classroom.  >  > To those who are building one of these, I know that I can't change  > your mind. BUT to those who are sorting out their decision whether  to  > build and what to build, I really suggest that you get out and sail  on  > a lot of different boats. Look at what is out there and understand  > where current distance cruiser design thinking has taken us. Today,  a  > modern cruising 36 footer typically can tick off a steady 8 knots to  > windward in breezes over 10 knots, and reach at speeds of 10 to 12  > knots. They can sail down into wind ranges below 5 knots and are  more  > comfortable and safer than their forebearers when the sea state gets  > ugly and the winds have lost their sense of humor. Seize the day,  but  > don't mistake 'rapid incompetence' for 'decisive action'. Do your  > homework, spend a little extra time to do the job well, and you will  > enjoy the fruits of your labors for a very long time.  >  > Respectfully > Jeff |
55|55|2001-05-11 15:11:47|svjennyp@yahoo.com|Where can I get a copy of Brent's book?|I'd be very interested in reading it.  -sara-|
56|56|2001-05-11 15:55:12|Alex & Kim Christie|Offshore vs Coastal collisions --different scenarios|          Brent's points about collisions at sea are a  reminder that the possible scenarios and outcomes of collisions during offshore  sailing can be very different than those which occur while coastal  sailing. While there is always the possiblity of a major collsion causing  catastrophic damage in either environment, the offshore sailor is going to have  to rely upon him or herself alone to stay alive in an emergency, hence needs a  higher level of protection, which has been proven through Brent's experiences.  The coastal sailor will not suffer long before rescue, even if his vessel goes  down and he is stuck in a liferaft. Building a vessel with a tough a hull  to begin with is a proven approach, while building a hull which floats after a  holing is another, though there are not many boats like this at present that I  know of.   Alex   (moderator)|
57|55|2001-05-11 16:01:57|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Where can I get a copy of Brent's book?|          Sara,   Brent's book is available by mail from him  directly:   To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a  Better Steel Boat a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20  plus $3 for postage to:Suite #427  1434 Island HighwayCampbell  River BCCanada V9W8C9  Alex   (moderator)      ----- Original Message -----     <b>From:</b>    svjennyp@...    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 11, 2001 12:10 PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Where can I get a    copy of Brent's book?   I'd be very interested in reading    it.-sara-To Post a message, send it    to:   origamiboats@...To    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@...    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.    |
58|52|2001-05-11 16:03:18|svjennyp@yahoo.com|Re: Ugly boats|To call a Swain boat ugly is to be in complete ignorance of the area  of the world in which they were born, and of the people who build and  sail them.  The true northwest (the West British Columbia coast) is traditionally  an environmentally hostile and lonely place, certainly compared to  Annapolis.  It still is for the most part.  Get 100 miles out of the  city of Vancouver and you'll find yourself the only human soul around  for miles.  It is beautiful up here, lush and green and alive but,  especially in a boat, you need to know how to take care of yourself  for the land is still very wild and unforgiving.  One need only to read the stories of local natives to understand the  environment.  Kumugwe rules the seas here, and will take a boat down  at his whim.  You'd best be ready.  The residents of this area are a fiercely independent and self- sufficient type.  You have to be when you live on an island and the  nearest grocery store is a day or two away in your skiff.  Yet they  are the most generous sort I have met anywhere and will help you out  in an instant, boat types or land dwellers.  I met some of these  folks while we traveled from Seattle to Alaska in our boat last  summer and my life was touched immensely by their knowledge and  kindness.  When I see a Swain boat, I see all these aspects of the Northwest in  it (my home for 26 years).  These boats are certainly not ugly, but  demonstrate strength and simplicity -- essential for survival up  here.  You cannot go down to the local West Marine in most places if  your Harken block breaks -- you have to make it yourself or do  without.  Deadheads and rocks and whirlpools and rapids and williwaws  and thunderstorms will chase you down continually.  You may have to  beach your twin-keeler to fix your prop if the nearest boat yard is  200 miles away.  Swain boats are ready for this, built with knowing  what must be endured up here, a marvel of engineering, and for that  the design is most beautiful.  If you've seen this coast and  understand what life is like here, you'd think so too.  And if a boat can sail this coast (and the Northwest passage no less)  they can sail anywhere.  No, Swain boats are not meant for sailing around the buoys in  Annapolis, but you'd better keep a very keen eye out for Kumugwe if  you want to bring one of those plastic boats up here.  -sara-|
59|59|2001-05-11 16:31:40|Alex Christie|coastal sailing dangerous too|Dear Group,  After reading Sara's excellent post, I have to revise what I said  about coastal sailing! It isn't a walk in the park, at times,  although I initially painted it that way. I was thinking of my own  area, which is the more benign southern coast near Courtenay. There  is very little current, and the waterways are quite open and easily  navigated (for the most part). But a little further north, "Up-coast"  as it is often called, is a region full of perils equal in ferocity  to that which can be found far offshore. Weather, current and  isolation are three elements which rule in those parts. You are just  as much left to your own devices as in the middle of the Pacific  ocean.   Alex  (moderator)|
60|60|2001-05-11 19:38:09|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Ouch!|Well Jeff, As you can see from the previous posts you've touched a nerve.    Those of us who don't want to refurbish someone elses boat choose to build from scratch because we want to have the choice of a designer we are familiar with and trust, to utilise material that provides security in an unforgiving environment and to have control over and familiarity with the building process. Although financial considerations are also an incentive,(build as cash flow allows), this by no means should suggest that home finished boats are thrown together crudely. Most people who take on the task are extremely talented to begin with, or develop skills as the project progresses. I know of many  boats that have been finished to perfection, one Swain boat I recently came across is indistinguishable from glass and the stainless steel work a joy to behold.          Admittedly some people are satisfied with denim, others wouldn't consider anything less than silk. It's all up to the individual. I sailed on an Alberg 37, the one used by Webb Chiles on his circumnavigation and for a factory finished boat it was a piece of junk. Bulkheads coming unattatched, leaks everywhere. At least with a boat one builds from scratch the quality control is in ones own hands.      Swain boats are good looking boats. They have a solid seamanlike appearance, not, perhaps, the look of sleek fashion driven racers popular back east but one that inspires confidence, proven in the west coast milieu and offshore. I'm afraid you will find that your suggestions and comments, interesting and insightful though they may be, will find short thrift amongst those adherents, fans and admirers of Swains metal designs.      Regards,      Richard|
61|56|2001-05-11 19:45:07|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Offshore vs Coastal collisions --different scenarios|Your likelihood of staying afloat after holing depends largely on the  size of hole a given impact makes . The tougher the material, and the  better engineered the hull, the smaller the hole a given incident will  cause. As the stiffness, toughness and resistance to holeing in a  steel boat go up by the cube root of the thickness of the material,  3/16th inch plate has 3.4 times the resistance to holing as the more  common 1/8th inch plate ,although it's extremely unlikely you will  ever hit anything hard enough or sharp enough to punch a hoe in 3/16th  inch mild steel, given the small size of the boats we are talking  about and the small amounts of inertia we are dealing with .No one has  managed yet, despite many full speed collisions with everything from  steel barges to icebergs to sharp rocks to coral reefs over the last  twenty years .   It's not impossible to make a steel boat unsinkable tho the point in  doing so seems questionable.   One inch foam will float the 1/8th inch deck plate I normally use  and 1 1/2 inch foam will float 3/16th inch plate . All you need to do  is increase the foam thickness by a percentage equal to the percentage  of weight of ballast and other negative buoyancy items in the boat,  such as machinery  , etc.and give a sufficient overkill.   A pound of interior woodwork gives roughly a pound of buoyancy when  submerged .   3 inches of foam all around would probably do the trick.   A friend had a new aluminium version of the Colvin 35 foot "Saugeen  Witch" on the tide grid with the tide out.After working on her they  all went to the local pub. When they got back they found that someone  had  forgot to close off a thru hull, and the boat was full of water  and floating off the bottom with about a foot of freeboard.They took  pictures of seven of them standing on deck with the boat still  floating with a foot of freeboard.   Doing this would considerably reduce the interior volume of the  boat.  --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Brent's points about collisions at sea are a reminder that the   possible scenarios and outcomes of collisions during offshore sailing  can be very different than those which occur while coastal sailing.  While there is always the possiblity of a major collsion causing  catastrophic damage in either environment, the offshore sailor is  going to have to rely upon him or herself alone to stay alive in an  emergency, hence needs a higher level of protection, which has been  proven through Brent's experiences. The coastal sailor will not suffer  long before rescue, even if his vessel goes down and he is stuck in a  liferaft. Building a vessel with a tough a hull to begin with is a  proven approach, while building a hull which floats after a holing is  another, though there are not many boats like this at present that I  know of.  >  > Alex >  > (moderator) |
62|62|2001-05-11 20:15:57|scottaylor79@yahoo.ca|I dig it|Growing up around a sailing dingy, to my father's recent tanzer 26 on  lac st. louis Mtrl. I love being on the water and looking at the  photo's the 44 ft junk -  that is my dream boat. I would like to do a  lot of sailing up north someday. Brent's designs seem so ideal. I am  currently on the east coat, having spent time on the west coast -  Jeff I am sorry man but you have no idea what you are mising. Scot|
63|52|2001-05-11 20:22:41|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: "Life too short to dance with an ugly person" Vs."Go ugly early|The blocks I use are built by wraping a piece of 3/16th aluminium  around a half inch rod, cutting it out in the shape of a single  purchase block, rounding it off and puting a sheave machined out of  1/2 inch polypropelene cutting board on a pin made out of a 3/8th inch  stainless bolt. The whoe block takes about twenty minutes to make by  hand, less with power tools , and costs less than a dollar .              No one has yet broken one in the last thirty years despite their  being used by several circumnavigators ,and by myself for seven  Pacific crossings.To break one you would have to shear a 3/8th inch  bolt supported on 1/2 inch centres or tear two layers of 3/16th inch  plate .Try it sometime. These blocks greatly exceed the strength of  the half inch rope they are commonly used with.    By comparison,the yachty , trendy,commercially made blocks are ,for  the most part, extremely flimsey.    When you are building something for yourself, the extra expense of  going a little heavier is minimal . For a commercial operation, making  millions of blocks, and extra ounce per block adds up to millions of  dollars.Thus the term "comercially made " often means made with the  absolute minimum amount of material possible.    This is the case in many decisions made in the building of a boat.  A backyard builder can beef things up and customize the construction  of a one off vessel in ways which would be overnight bankrupcy for a  commercial builder.   For this reason a person buying a boat for offshore cruising is  often far better off buying a boat built by an experienced offshore  cruiser ,who has his shit together, and was building for his own use ,  than to buy a stock production boat which was built to sell and the  builder's life would never be at stake.   Such a boat may not have the same cosmetic "decorative priorities"  as a production boat, but few experienced offshore cruisers would be  willing to sacrfice safety for "decorative priorities".Most feel ,  after several years of offshore cruising ,that a good offshore boat is  best regarded as a workboat and should be designed and built with the  same priorities as a workboat.While cruising the South Pacific, I've  met a lot of cruisers who were heading home to trade their "decorative  boat" for a workboat.   --- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: >    Many of my clients are building a boat precisely because the have  > done it in the "bargain" fixer uppers for too long and are tired of  > dealing with other peoples screwups . The notion that "you only get  > what you pay for " is a line which has been used to lure in suckers  by  > sleazy used car salesmen and boat salesmen for a long time .It  assumes  > that the quality of anything you buy is always invariably reflected  in  > the pricetag . Perhaps someone should tell consumer advocates like  > Ralph Nader that they are wasting their time testing products and  that  > all they have to do to determine the quality of what they are buying  > is to read the price tag. If you want to double the quality of what  > you are selling , all you have to do is double the price. >   There is such a thing as a ripoff Jeff. Sorry to blow your  illusions  > .Wanna buy some oceanfront property in Kansas ,Jeff? >   Jeff uses the  term "ugly" in describing an economically built  boat,  > yet some of the light displacement boats he advocates such as the  > Beneteau "hunchbacks " are to my eye some of the ugliest things  > afloat, for a pricetag of a quarter of a million dollars plus . >   Anyone can see from the photos Alex has posted that my origami  boats  > are some of the best looking boats out there, something many people  > often tell me. Unlike some of the fully framed boats, they are fair  > enough to  be given a high gloss finish without an ounce of filler ,  > and still look as fair as a fibreglass boat out of a mold . >   While advocating safety concerns, Jeff also advocates light  > displacement boats which lose all stability at around 120 degrees of  > heel, then capsize and stay that way.Read "Seaworthyness, the  > forgotten factor "by Marchage. >   While an estimated 2500 cargo containers fall off ships every  year,  > the light displacement boats he advocates can't survive a collision  > with one in rough conditions .With the stuff I've hit at night at  sea,  > I wouldn't be here if I'd been sailing the type of boats he  advocates. >   One of my boats T boned a steel barge at 8 knots with no  dammage.Try  > that with the fixer uppers he's mentioned . >   One often reads of vessels and lives lost at sea which wouldn't  have  > been lost if they'd been in steel hulls. >   Part of the reason the rusted out Roberts hull he talks about,  > rusted out , was probably because it was plated with lighter steel  to  > allow for the weight of transverse frames . >   The other reason was probably because of the amount of  > disinformation around about steel boats. >   It's often been said that most steel boats tend to rust from the  > inside out. It's also been said that there is no need to paint a  boat  > on the inside because the sprayfoam insulation is adequate  protection  > for the steel. DUHHHH. >   The reason that steel boats tend to rust from the inside out is  > precisely BECAUSE people don't believe it's neccessary to paint the  > inside. >   Give a hull three coats of epoxy tar over wheelabraded and cold  > galvanizing primed  steel and you won't have a problem there in a  > lifetime. >   My last boat is 25 years old now and the hull is as good as the  day  > I built her. >   You can tell where the foam has separated from the steel by  dragging  > your fingernails over the foam and listening for the hollow  > sound.Where it sounds hollow, dig the foam out and look. If there's  no  > paint under the foam, don't buy the boat. >    The rather expensive , fully framed steel boats built in BC  called  > the "Foulkes 39" are notoriuos for having unpainted hull interiors  and  > are likewise notorious for rusting from the inside out.Many  surveyors  > will never pass a boat which hasn't been painted inside. >   This is another reason why people with a lot of experience prefer  to  > build my designs rather than buy a boat. They know exactly how  things  > were done. >   As for the time it takes , the steel for one of my 36 footers   > arrived the beginning of february, the boat was launced the 26th of  > april, the couple moved aboard the may 24th long weekend and went  for  > their first cruise,and they set sail for mexico that fall with a new  > boat and no worries about how it was put together or what some  > previous ownner had done.  >   Jeff uses the word "crude" yet when people who have built steel  > boats using the traditional method of framed boatbuilding see their  > first origami boat go together , they describe the traditional way  as  > very crude and outdated. Given the amount of complexity and  distortion  > , they also consider the results of traditional methods extremely  > crude. >   A friend who built a 40 ft Brewer  using traditional methods had  to  > us two 45 gallon drums of fairing compound, much cruder than a fair  > frameless hull which needs no fairing whatsoever to achieve a much  > greater degree of fairness. >   The suggestion that a hull is only %20 of the total applies only  to  > non metal hulls . >   It takes me roughly 100 hours to pull a shell together , 100 hours  > of welding, and 100 hours to detail a boat. Detailing includes  tanks.  > engine mounts , cleats, mooring bitts, hatches, handrails,  lifelines,  > pushpit and pulpit, self steering,inside steering, thru hulls ,mast  > step, etc, etc, the sort of things one has to think about and shop  for  > after buying a fibreglass hull. By the time I've detailed a boat,  it's  > ready for painting and launching. >   A stainless cleat which could cost $40 for a fibreglass boat can  be  > made of stainless and welded down for under a dollars worth of  > material, and is far stronger an less prone to ever cause problems. >   On the subject of resale value , perhaps a quote from my book is  in  > order. > RESALE VALUE >   One often sees people spending large amounts of time and money on  > teak, stainless, expensive hardware, etc, in  the hope of increasing  > thr "resale value". of a boat. Sadly they fail to understand the  > difference between resale value and resale price.   While" resale  > price" is how much you can get for a boat,"resale value" is the  > difference between what you can  get and what she cost you in the  > first place. >   It's very easy to spend an extra 40,000 dollars on a boat in order  > to increase the resale price by 20,000 dollars , a loss of 20,000  > dollars , not counting time spent and lost cruising time.Several of  my  > boats , built on a low budget have been sold for anywhere from two  to  > five times what their owners have spent on them. As the price goes  > higher, the gap between cost and resale narrows , as does the choice  > of potential buyers, till spending moe eventually becomes a losing  > proposition ." >   >   One of my 36 footers was built for 17,000 dollars and sold for  > 65,000 dollars. One of my 31 footers was built for $7,000 and sold  for  > $20,000. Another was built for $15,000 and sold for $30,000. A 29  was  > built for $4,000 and sold for $23,000.  >  >   The self steering "airies gear " Jeff mentions sells for around  > $1500, and I'm told needs at least 6 knots of wind to work. The one  I  > build costs about $15 worth of material and works in 2 knots of wind  ,  > and has never had a breakdown. >   Except for a broken skeg when one of my boats was pounding on a  lee  > shore in huge surf , none of my boats have suffered any serious  > structural problems, despite several circumnavigations, a single  > season passage through the northwest passage ( where the only  dammage  > was a set of broken dentures on the skipper when it hit the  > underwater portion of an iceberg at full speed ). >   Last winter I sailed from BC to Tonga and back in a single year .  > Nothing broke except the oilpan on mu isuzu diesel, which I didn't  > build .Such problem free voyages are almost unheard of on the type  of  > boats Jeffy advocates. >                                      Brent Swain >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > > (This is a very long post so you may want to print it out for  > > convenience) > >  > > "Life too short to dance with an ugly guy". Vs. "Go ugly early"-  An  > > alternative viewpoint. > >  > > Annapolis, where I live, is a very serious sailing town. There are  > > 20,000 boats registered to one creek in town alone. I joke that no  > > matter how rare a particular design might be sooner or later one  > will  > > pass through town. Men and woman take their sailing seriously in  > this  > > place, whether they cruise or race or just plain daysail. Sailing  is  > > as much a part of daily chatter as would be traffic in a city or  > > weather to a farmer. Innocent expressions creep into our language  > from  > > all kinds of sources only to become sailing expressions. (Please  > > excuse the sexist choice of examples but since these examples have  > > crept in the Annapolis sailing vocabulary I figure they are fair  > > game.)  > >  > > A few years back there was a very successful race boat called  > 'Twisted  > > Sisters' in town raced by a an all woman crew. On their boom was  > > painted "Life's too short to dance with an ugly guy". This  > expression  > > slipped into local sailing usage to mean, that if you are going to  > do  > > something don't do it with junk. Its used this way, you are out to  > buy  > > a new block and you are standing there looking at a Brand 'H'  block  > > and a Brand 'X' block. Brand 'X' is 20% less expensive, but you  know  > > that Brand 'H' has less friction, actually performs to its safe  > > working loads, and has a lifetime warrantee (no matter what the  > > published warrantee says), so you say to yourself, 'life's to  short  > to  > > sail with an ugly woman." And you grab the Harken and buy it. You  do  > > so knowing that when you take that knockdown, and the spinnaker  > takes  > > a wave, you have a better chance of the block holding than  failing.  > > And even if the block is never stressed that hard, you wrap up a  day  > > of sailing less tired because you haven't been fighting with a  > higher  > > friction block.  > >  > > On the flip side, there is the expression, 'Go ugly early." This  > comes  > > from a bad comedy routine about a guy who'd go to bars to meet  > woman.  > > He would start early in the evening with the best looking woman in  > the  > > bar but after an evening or rejection, he'd end up going home late  > at  > > night with the ugliest woman in the bar. He'd miss the late night  > news  > > and would wake up completely exhausted the next day. He decided  that  > > he was better off walking into the bar and picking the worst  looking  > > woman in the bar and "Going Ugly Early." In sailing, 'Go ugly  early'  > > is used a lot of ways. In racing, you "might go ugly" early by  > > choosing to tack early across an adverse current early knowing  that  > > eventually the current will get worse and cost more VMG to cross.  > But  > > it is also used to refer to the folks who always try to get by  with  > > cobbled together gear. On one hand they are certainly out there  > before  > > they would be with better equipment but in racing they are rarely  in  > > the money and in cruising they always seem to be broken down  > somewhere  > > putting the old girl back together. Even more to the point, when  > they  > > go to sell these "cheap boats" they often end up taking a bigger  hit  > > than the guy who spent a little more in the first place.  > >  > > As long as I am speaking in hackneyed sayings, I understand Alex's  > > basic point. I am very much a believer in the Welsh (or Scottish)  > > saying, "You are dead for a very long time", which is the Welsh  > > (Scottish) equivalent to seize the day. (Especially since my 50th  > > birthday and as we all know life is 'like a roll of toilet paper,  it  > > runs out fastest toward the end' to quote Andy Rooney) But there  are  > a  > > lot of ways to achieve that noble goal.  > >  > > This forum seems to take it for granted that the only way to  achieve  > > that goal is to build your own cheap boat, and the only legitimate  > > form of cheap boat is one that has the hull coming together  quickly,  > > no matter what other the sailing, construction time, economic or  > other  > > compromises that are implied. I doubt that I will sway many minds  > here  > > but I would like to play 'Devil's Advocate' here and point out the  > > options that get glossed over.  > >  > > Why build new? There are a lot of great boats out there at prices  > well  > > within the price range you are throwing around that would get you  > out  > > there a lot sooner than building your own and perhaps for less  > money.  > > Speaking for myself I have been able to do a lot of sailing in my  > life  > > on a real shoestring. I am not one of those people who advocates,  > the  > > 'just throw money at it" approach. I can't afford to. I have  almost  > > always ''Gone ugly early". From my first boat, a small sloop  bought  > > when I was 14 with savings from odd jobs, to my $400 Folkboat that  I  > > restored and lived on, to the 1939 Stadel cutter that I bought for  > > $2500, restored in half a dozen months, and which my Dad or I  owned  > > for the next 12 years I (I left it with him when I went back to  > school  > > for my master degree) and so on to my current boat a 4000 lb.  kevlar  > > and vinylester 28 footer that works well for my need or the 10,500  > lb.  > > 38 footer that I am currently negotiating on, a boat that has  > > previously 'been out there' for years with previous couple who  owned  > > her; I have owned boats that can be cruised and single-handed for  32  > > of the 38 years that I have been sailing and none have cost as  much  > as  > > you folks are thinking of spending on building the boats shown on  > > these pages (the Pirate Dinghy excluded- nice job by the way).  > >  > > I must say that I prefer coastal cruising and that is what I have  > done  > > the most of my sailing life. I have been blessed with having an  > > occupation that I would probably enjoy doing as a hobby but it  does  > > keep my feet nailed down, so that long distance cruising is not in  > my  > > immediate schedule. But that has never stopped me from sailing and  > > sailing cheaply. I dare say that I know a lot of people who are  "out  > > there" who spend less time in a year actually out on the water  > sailing  > > than I get to sail year in and year out.  > >  > > I have done so by finding examples of venerable designs, in easily  > > 'restorable' shape (Which sometimes comes down to a simple hull  wax  > > job, varnishing and painting down below, and cleaning the  cushions),  > > and getting out there and going sailing. When I have gone to  resell  > > these boas they have held their value and most have sold for more  > than  > > I had in them. By buying carefully I have done well. My current  > boat,  > > the worst case of the bunch, is probably going to sell for $3000  > less  > > than I have in her after 12 years of sailing the living daylights  > out  > > her.  > >  > > Let me give you some examples of why I think that if you are in a  > > "Carpe Diem" frame of mind buying a good used boat might make more  > > sense. One of the things I do with my spare time is help people,  who  > > are looking to buy a used boat, find the right boat for them. I am  > not  > > a broker. I don't get paid for this; I am just a guy who likes to  be  > > helpful. One guy I helped out bought a Pearson Rhodes 41 for less  > than  > > 20K. These are boats designed by one of this country's greatest  > > designers at the height of his career. Rhodes 41's are boats that  > have  > > gone everywhere. They have fallen a bit out of favor because they  > > typically have a gas engine. This boat needed new standing  rigging,  > an  > > engine rebuild, the Aries Windvane needed reconditioning, he  wanted  > a  > > new mainsail, and the interior was a cosmetically mess.  > >  > > In six months the guy refinished the existing interior, recovered  > the  > > cushions (which were the second set and were not in bad shape),  > > rebuilt the engine, and bought a new mainsail. He had planned to  > build  > > his own mainsail but actually ended up having a new one built for  > less  > > by taking advantage of "off season" pricing from a major loft.  With  > > all of that, he ended up with a highly regarded 41 foot cruising  > boat,  > > still had less than $35K in the boat and he certainly had less  time  > > and money in her than it would have taken to build a boat of that  > > displacement, no matter how crude or ingenious.  > >  > > Another example was a fellow I exchanged email with, who had  bought  > a  > > Peterson 44 (the cruising boat) that had sunk in her slip (check  > those  > > so-called 'bronze' seacocks). The prior owner was under insured  and  > so  > > was putting the boat back together by himself when his health and  > > funds failed. This boat was torn apart but the prior owner had  > bought  > > almost everything needed to put the old girl back together had all  > > neatly tagged and in boxes. My friend chose to buy a short block  for  > > the diesel rather than reuse the old one but all of the other  parts  > > were there. The interior cleaned up nicely. All told the project  was  > > less than a year with the guy holding down a full time job. He  left  > to  > > go cruising with something less than $50K in the boat. When he got  > > back he sold the boat for something over $100K and used the money  to  > > buy another project boat, which he now owns free and clear and  ended  > > up with a healthier bank account to boot.  > >  > > I have a friend in North Carolina who has a neat 36 foot cruising  > boat  > > that he picked up for $17K. She did not have an engine or  electrical  > > system at all and so was a real 'white elephant'. He bought an  > > outboard, and an array of solar panels and for less than $20K is  all  > > set to go cruising.  > >  > > A couple years back a guy stayed with me while he was surveying a  > boat  > > here on the Chesapeake. The boat was a 41 or so foot steel hulled  > > sloop (Roberts design) that he was buying for just over 20K. She  was  > a  > > mess. The worst problem for prior potential buyers was the bottom  > > plating which had "disappeared one night when the guy was tied up  > next  > > to a power cruiser with a bad electrical system and the Air  > > Conditioning running." Replacing the bottom plating was made more  > > difficult because that the interior was screwed and glued. (If you  > > build a steel boat, build a removable interior.) But after paying  a  > > professional to do the welding, and rebuilding the interior  himself  > a  > > year or so later he had a solid boat.   > >  > > To me if you want to go sailing*now*, then building a boat is not  > the  > > way to go. BUT if you feel that you must build your own boat, (and  I  > > often think that I would get a kick out of that,) then at least  > build  > > something that has resale value in the market place. Pick a design  > by  > > a respected designer that has national or international  recognition.  > > Pick a design that fits some kind of norm in terms of hull form,  > rig,  > > and keel types. Pick a design that has charisma. These things do  not  > > add as much time and cost as they increase the sailing ability or  > > resale value. Build the boat with decent workmanship and a  > reasonable  > > level of finish and you might break even when you go to sell.  > >  > > One last point about this "Origami Boat" concept. It appears to  > > produce a hull and deck in a very short time. You quickly have  > > something that 'looks' like a boat. But even on the most time  > > consuming of boat building methods, traditional plank on frame  > wooden  > > construction, the hull itself is only about 20% to 30% of the  > > construction time. Building a decent interior, rig and appendages,  > and  > > adding deck and interior hardware, installing the electrical  system,  > > plumbing, engine, shaft log, and tanks, and all of the bits and  > pieces  > > that it takes to make a finished vessel is where the real time to  > > build a boat lies. I question the wisdom of building a building a  > hull  > > form that is seriously compromised by the construction technique  > > chosen for construction.  > >  > > Before firing off the post saying "what about so-and so who likes  > his  > > version of the "this or that 35" and sailed her around the world",  > > consider the mass of strange and ill suited boats that are  presently  > > circling the globe. Each person can justify their choice and few  > > parents think they have the strangest child in the classroom.  > >  > > To those who are building one of these, I know that I can't change  > > your mind. BUT to those who are sorting out their decision whether  > to  > > build and what to build, I really suggest that you get out and  sail  > on  > > a lot of different boats. Look at what is out there and understand  > > where current distance cruiser design thinking has taken us.  Today,  > a  > > modern cruising 36 footer typically can tick off a steady 8 knots  to  > > windward in breezes over 10 knots, and reach at speeds of 10 to 12  > > knots. They can sail down into wind ranges below 5 knots and are  > more  > > comfortable and safer than their forebearers when the sea state  gets  > > ugly and the winds have lost their sense of humor. Seize the day,  > but  > > don't mistake 'rapid incompetence' for 'decisive action'. Do your  > > homework, spend a little extra time to do the job well, and you  will  > > enjoy the fruits of your labors for a very long time.  > >  > > Respectfully > > Jeff |
64|64|2001-05-11 21:51:03|Alex Christie|new photo files uploaded to origamiboats|Hello group,  Thanks to Richard (Sunyataspirit), I have received and scanned a  bunch of new photos for the "files" section. They mostly show  interior shots of a bare hull, plus two exterior detailing shots. The  photos show the position of longitudinal (ie fore and aft)stringers  on the inside of the hull, as well as how the wooden furring strips  are attached to those stringers. Foam is sprayed into the space  between each furring strip to the level of the strips. In turn,  bulkheads and interior furniture are attached to the strips.  Regards,  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
65|65|2001-05-11 22:56:59|yah02840@yahoo.com|Steel,Origami, Twin keeled boats.|Where to start ? It all seems to come at once. Now; the Origami method in itself has been around for a long time.  The Dutch, always but also the French. The largest builder of Origami  boat is the Meta company. They have built hundreds of steel, then  Aluminum in a process called " Strongall". Where the aluminum is 2 to  3 times the conventional thicknesses and where it is all skin with  very little reinforcing in ways of folding the metal. They are  yachts, and not cheap but still reasonable. The largest is about 58'.  The company covers sail and power boats. Twin keeled boats are being pursued actively by another company, also  in France. Having built over 200 "Romanee's" (37',the first aluminum  boat built in series, and dozens more of one offs aluminum vessels.  Right now they are convinced of the advantage for cruising boats to  adopt twin keels. The models are 54', 47', 44' and 37'. All under  construction. All in aluminum. I applaud to the ideas presented with this board.|
66|66|2001-05-12 14:48:48|Alex & Kim Christie|Boatbuilders in france using frameless techniques|Attachments :          Thanks to a tip from one of our members (merci  "yah02840"), I have dug up the website of Meta, who builds yachts of aluminum.  They use no frames and very thick aluminum plate. Not exactly the same as  Brent's technique, but close. They have yielded some very nice  results.   http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm   See attached photo of "Armelle" a twin keeled  17.5 metre boat on a mudflat.   Alex   (moderator)|
67|67|2001-05-13 12:28:48|Alex & Kim Christie|website link to Dove II|          Via Richard, here is a link to a website which has  a page on one of Brent's boats, Dove II, owned by author Gordon  Harris.   http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/1237/boat.html   Alex   (moderator)|
68|67|2001-05-14 16:55:03|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: website link to Dove II|The Homewood Road address given in this website is no longer valid  as that place was sold years ago. My new address is Suite#427   1434  Island Highway , Campbell River, BC V9W8C9 Canada.     Anyone wanting to compare voyaging in "Low cost Industrially rigged  yachts " with cruising in expensively rigged "high tech" yachts would  be well advised to read Bernard Moitessiers two books "The Long Way"  and "Cape Horn, The Logical Route"   In The Long Way , Bernard sails 1 1/2 times around the world  non-stop through the roaring 40s and around the horn with no gear  failures whatsoever, except for bending his bowsprit when he hit a  freighter with it .   Few stock boats can sail accross the Pacific in the benign trade  wind areas with commercially made "High Tech Yachtie " hardware,  without occaisional gear failures .                                         Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Via Richard, here is a link to a website which has a page on one of   Brent's boats, Dove II, owned by author Gordon Harris.  >  > http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/1237/boat.html >  > Alex >  > (moderator) |
69|66|2001-05-14 17:19:14|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Boatbuilders in france using frameless techniques|This is much closer to what I have been suggesting in some of my  earlier posts. The Armelle approaches my idea of proper yacht design  design thinking. Fairly shallow canoe body, fairly straight and very  fair buttocks, fine bow and more powerful stern sections. Even the  use of bilge keels follows the current thinking on the proper  design of bilge keels which says, if you are going to do bilge keels  they should be as high aspect ratio as you can make them and set-up to  be vertical at about 15 degrees of heel which is also the case on the  Armelle(More than 15 degrees of outward angle and they are less effect  at ideal heel angles in the range of 10-15 degrees and they form a  tripper when hove to across breaking waves). They have used bulbs on  each keel to lower the center of gravity which should give them a very  high angle of positive stability.  It is hard to tell from the picture  but the one shortcoming of the Armelle in my book is that the bow  seems to have a flat on the bottom rather than being Vee'd for the  first third or so of the boat. A bottom flat really pounds in a chop  and can be pretty noisy when you are trying to get some sleep.  Jeff     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Thanks to a tip from one of our members (merci "yah02840"), I have   dug up the website of Meta, who builds yachts of aluminum. They use no  frames and very thick aluminum plate. Not exactly the same as Brent's  technique, but close. They have yielded some very nice results.  >  > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm >  > See attached photo of "Armelle" a twin keeled 17.5 metre boat on a   mudflat.  >  > Alex >  > (moderator) |
70|70|2001-05-14 17:23:33|burr.halpern|Re Ugly|Hey Alex,  As moderator, please do me a favor and point out that nowhere in my long post did I call Brent's design's ugly. I used two metaphors intended to reflect two very different points of view. The fact that both contained the word"Ugly" and derived from the less gender senitive side of our sport was probably a faux paux on my part. In any event, I do not want to get into a running gun battle with Brent. It is clear to me that if I post engineering data showing that 3/16" steel is not as strong in an impact as 1/2" glass it will be dismissed out of hand. Or if I start citing current data rather than a Marchaj's 20 year old data about designs that were already obsolete twenty years ago, it will be dismissed as "bumble bee's in flight logic".  (Which may be the perfect analogy since it too is a very dated example. That analogy about the buble bee not being able to theoretically fly dates back to the very early modeling of aerodynamics in the 1940's. Using current technology we are precisely able to model how a bumble bee flies.)  To wildly throw out that modern boats have a ultimate stabilty of 120 degrees is just plain bullshit. That has not been the case in the last 10 years with most modern boats achieving 135 degrees or more positive stability with many IMS based race boats achieving 160 degrees and up. I also wonder why Brent thinks he has a positive stability above 120 degrees. In EU testing of actual steel hulled and decked small vessels they were generally found to have very small righting angles because of their high centers of gravity. They look good on surrogate righting moment approximation but according to the STIX (Stability index calculation) studies in actual righting moment situations did very poorly.  In any event, there is no more use to me trying to explain all of that on the Origami Boats board than it would to try to explain carbon dating to a fundimentalist Christain. I did not want to imply that I thought Brent's boats were ugly, ( I think aethetics are in the mind of the beholder) and I don't wish to leave the impression that I had. While I don't particularly like Brent's voodoo approach to the science of naval architecture, I don't think that I should get in a running gun battle with him either so please be so kind as to point out that I never said they were ugly.  I'll see you at 'light cruisers', a world much closer to my own. Thanks jeff   Regards Jeff  Alex Christie wrote:   > Dear Group, > > After reading Sara's excellent post, I have to revise what I said > about coastal sailing! It isn't a walk in the park, at times, > although I initially painted it that way. I was thinking of my own > area, which is the more benign southern coast near Courtenay. There > is very little current, and the waterways are quite open and easily > navigated (for the most part). But a little further north, "Up-coast" > as it is often called, is a region full of perils equal in ferocity > to that which can be found far offshore. Weather, current and > isolation are three elements which rule in those parts. You are just > as much left to your own devices as in the middle of the Pacific > ocean. > > Alex > > (moderator) > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
71|71|2001-05-14 17:51:33|Alex & Kim Christie|fairness of frameless hulls as seen in photo|Attachments :          Dear group,   Here is a shot of the underbody of Brian Gilroyd's  twin keeler.  Note how smooth the freshly painted hull looks, especially  near the stern where the gloss should show any unfairness. Apparently no time is  expended fairing these hulls with filler because the frameless steel hull skin  does not create the same humps and hollows that regular framed boat get  from welding distortion.   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
72|70|2001-05-14 19:07:28|John.Olson@tesco.net|Stability, was: Re Ugly|I have no problem beleiving that Brent's 31 footer has positive  stability up to 120 degrees.  I've had Eclectus near that once, in a  storm north of Bermuda, and it popped back upright faster than you  you would think possible.  The radar reflector on the top of the mast  was damaged when it hit the water, and the trajectory of the cabbage  that flew out of the galley and smashed against the cabin side  opposite suggests the boat rolled to over 110 degrees.  Stability  index calculations are sketchy rules-of-thumb at best, and don't come  close to predicting how a vessel will react when it's in conditions  where all that righting moment is used in anger.  Cheers  John    --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern" <burr.halpern@a...> wrote: > I also wonder why Brent thinks he has a > positive stability above 120 degrees. In EU testing of actual steel  hulled and > decked small vessels they were generally found to have very small  righting angles > because of their high centers of gravity. They look good on  surrogate righting > moment approximation but according to the STIX (Stability index  calculation) > studies in actual righting moment situations did very poorly. > |
73|73|2001-05-14 20:50:20|Alex & Kim Christie|Carl's boat, other pix uploaded|Attachments :          Dear group,   Here is a nice romantic shot of a 36 footer owned  by Carl, at anchor in Comox. A very good example of the type set up for full  time liveaboard life, it's current use.    Also, an interior shot of Brian Gilroyd's 36  footer, showing a high level of finish.   Yesterday I took a field trip into Courtenay and  got some shots of a 36 footer in-build at the home of the Austin family. All  photos are in the files section in the "Austin Hull" photo album. Some  excellent details shots showing how attached parts (cleat, handrails, bollard)  are welded in place, and therefore unified with the hull in a most inseperable  way. In English, "good luck tearing them off, even if you tried!".   It is of great benefit to steel boatbuilders that  stainless steel can be welded to mild steel, as this avoids the need to bed and  bolt down all fittings.   Cheers,   Alex   (moderator)|
74|70|2001-05-15 14:12:52|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Angle of heel|I congratulate you on surviving a knock down of nearly 120 degrees of  heel. To put that in perspective, -At 45 degrees surfaces that are normally vertical become easier to  walk on than normally horizontal surfaces. -at 90 degrees, most boats dip their spreaders in the water and the  deck is vertical so it is very difficult for someone on deck to stay  aboard, primarily hanging vertical and using normally vertical  surfaces like ladders to get a foot hold. Almost any loose item on  board will fall to leeward, including unrestrained batteries. -Typically by 95 to 100 degrees, most boats have the tip of their mast  in the water. Vertical surfaces are now pointing downward and so crew  on deck typically are hanging from what ever they can grab. Winch  handles in normally vertical open pockets will slide overboard.  -Typically by 100-105 degrees the mast is in the water up to the  spreaders. At this point most boats are past the point of maximimum  positive displacement. (In other words the amount of force trying  to right the boat has begun to decrease) They are sliding to leeward  on their topsides and their mast and sails to leeward are generating  some "lift' downward trying to overturn the vessel. This dynamic  lift can be emormous and is what generally damages rigs in a  rollover. The weight of seawater on the sails begin to dampen the  speed at which a boat will come up and can infact actually work to  pull the boat over.  -By 120 to 130 degrees the base of the mast on most boats are in the  water. Dorades and the like are in the water. -By 135 degrees objects that were previously right side up are now  upside down and anything which is not held down and has not slid will  fall across the cabin.  It becomes easier to stand on the cabin top  than to stand on the side of normally vertical surfaces. At this point  most boats that do not have a keel equal in depth to half its beam  (which is why most surrogate positive stability calculations look so  heavily at draft and beam) has pretty much lost positive stability as  the weight of the keel is now inboard of the boat's center of  buoyancy. Heavy decks and rigs become the ballast that tries to pull   the boat over toward inversion and it takes a wave of other  destabilizing force to rock the boat sufficiently to bring the boat  back up.   When we read published ranges of positive stability, these are  generally based on surrogate formulas that are not terribly accurate  because they do not include a component for center of gravity and  generally do include a calculation for the buoyancy of the cabin  structure. Even when we see full blown positive stability calculations  they generally reflect static calculations and as I mentioned above  the dynamic overturning moments of a boat sliding on her topsides with  the mast in the water are tremendous. Modern offshore raceboats are  required to have a calculated 135 degrees of positive stability  calculated statically. From Issabelle Autissier's overturning in the  Southern Ocean, we all know that in the real world that is not enough  to predict that the boat will in fact come back up.   Jeff    --- In origamiboats@y..., John.Olson@t... wrote: > I have no problem beleiving that Brent's 31 footer has positive  > stability up to 120 degrees.  I've had Eclectus near that once, in a  > storm north of Bermuda, and it popped back upright faster than you  > you would think possible.  The radar reflector on the top of the  mast  > was damaged when it hit the water, and the trajectory of the cabbage  > that flew out of the galley and smashed against the cabin side  > opposite suggests the boat rolled to over 110 degrees.  Stability  > index calculations are sketchy rules-of-thumb at best, and don't  come  > close to predicting how a vessel will react when it's in conditions  > where all that righting moment is used in anger. >  > Cheers >  > John >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern" <burr.halpern@a...> wrote: > > I also wonder why Brent thinks he has a > > positive stability above 120 degrees. In EU testing of actual  steel  > hulled and > > decked small vessels they were generally found to have very small  > righting angles > > because of their high centers of gravity. They look good on  > surrogate righting > > moment approximation but according to the STIX (Stability index  > calculation) > > studies in actual righting moment situations did very poorly. > > |
75|75|2001-05-16 18:00:37|Alex Christie|Invitation for daysail on 36 footer|An invitation:  Anyone with an interest in trying a daysail on one of the 36 footers  in June or July, please reply to me and I'll let you know when a date  has been arranged. If there is sufficient interest, I'll approach  some of the owners locally to put together an outing.  The most likely location would be Comox harbour, British Columbia,  Canada.  Alex  (moderator)  ps ongoing technical probs at Yahoo seem to have delayed a few  messages, swallowed posts, and/or affected delivery settings. Check  your settings and make sure they are what you had before, and that  all your messages are getting through!|
76|76|2001-05-17 06:39:54|willyacht@yahoo.com|Swain 40 ft?|Anybody building one?  What are the prices for Brent Swains plans?  I read some discussion on positive static stability anybody have  figures for the 36 Footer and 40 footer? The pilot house version will  probably be self righting?  Will|
77|77|2001-05-17 07:01:54|willyacht@yahoo.com|ABS?|I read with some interest the posts on ABS construction standards,  ABS is an obsolete standard for pleasure sailing vessels.  Even in  the hey day of ABS there were some noted structural failures even in  Steel and Aluminium vessels. Numerous cases were documented by Prof  Joubert in the Small Ships Journal. Why designers are currently still  designing to an obsolete standard that is not supported is beyond me.  If you think a designer  has credibility by using ABS you should  think again. The best standard today is German Lloyds or Veritas, but  i cant ever recall a plan peddler designing to these standards. So in  my opinion knocking Brent Swain on so called standards when most  boats are being designed and built to something that is not current  is not fair. You could say all current designs are based on  guestimates rather than accepted structural engineering standards.  Seondly no frameless boat would have ever got ABS plan approval since  they simply never met the scantling rule fullstop. Most of Dudley  Dixs frameless work is based on and is similar to what Van Der Stadt  are doing. Van Der Stadts hulls are not Frameless and they will even  confirm this. None of the Van Der Stadt Frameless hulls meet German  Lloyds standards and none of them will ever, since German Lloyds only  classifies yachts above 14 metres, and most of their new designs are  designed to Lloyds. Comparing Swains hulls to Van Der Stadts, i would  say the Swain Hull is a better designed structure since Van  Der  Stadt scantling system is haphazard at best and large areas of the  hull in crucial areas have no major framing or anything that  represents structural support, i suppose in many ways they are  frameless. Structurally good or bad? only finite element analysis  will reveal if building hulls this way is a science or hocus pocus.   Will|
78|66|2001-05-17 07:11:10|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Boatbuilders in france using frameless techniques|The French have an unhealthy appetite for super wide beam boats with  poor static postive stability. What is even amzing is that i met a  Frenchman in Sydney ho just returned from the South Pole in a Meta  boat with a 101 degrees positive, he was convinced that that figure  was okay.  I must admitt i like the look and practicality of the many French  Chine and Frameless boats, they have shallow draft and many other  virtues, but stability is not one of them. Not that this cant be  corrected. Besides what boat is not noisy in a chop and who can  really sleep in the bows anyway when thing get lumpy.   Will        --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > This is much closer to what I have been suggesting in some of my  > earlier posts. The Armelle approaches my idea of proper yacht  design  > design thinking. Fairly shallow canoe body, fairly straight and  very  > fair buttocks, fine bow and more powerful stern sections. Even the  > use of bilge keels follows the current thinking on the proper  > design of bilge keels which says, if you are going to do bilge  keels  > they should be as high aspect ratio as you can make them and set-up  to  > be vertical at about 15 degrees of heel which is also the case on  the  > Armelle(More than 15 degrees of outward angle and they are less  effect  > at ideal heel angles in the range of 10-15 degrees and they form a  > tripper when hove to across breaking waves). They have used bulbs  on  > each keel to lower the center of gravity which should give them a  very  > high angle of positive stability.  It is hard to tell from the  picture  > but the one shortcoming of the Armelle in my book is that the bow  > seems to have a flat on the bottom rather than being Vee'd for the  > first third or so of the boat. A bottom flat really pounds in a  chop  > and can be pretty noisy when you are trying to get some sleep. >  > Jeff  >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  > wrote: > > Thanks to a tip from one of our members (merci "yah02840"), I  have  > dug up the website of Meta, who builds yachts of aluminum. They use  no  > frames and very thick aluminum plate. Not exactly the same as  Brent's  > technique, but close. They have yielded some very nice results. > >  > > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm > >  > > See attached photo of "Armelle" a twin keeled 17.5 metre boat on  a  > mudflat. > >  > > Alex > >  > > (moderator) |
79|70|2001-05-17 07:32:54|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Re Ugly|Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I would say you must be talking about boats in the last year or two.  Most modern boats that were sold as cruising boats had numbers well  below 120 degrees. Just look at the Jeaneaus, Beneteaus and many  other assorted odds and sodds. Just pick up any book on boat design  or refer to any back issues of any Cruising Magazine or even Sea  Horse you will remember that 125 degrees was considered conservative  and 120 degrees was okay.  It was only the Pacific Creaklock and  Island Packets that pushed the stability envelope. Certainly Bruce  Farr was no believer in high static stability, and most in the race  world believed that it hampered speed. IMS has only tranformed itself  in the last 1.5 years, the average IMS boat was hovering around 110  degrees.  Most designers were using 120 degrees as the target figure  for offshore use. Anyway its just amazing to see how authors  and "experts" have all suddenly become true believers in high static  stability numbers.  There is no doubt that smaller steel vessels have poor angles of  vanishing stability, that we can agree on. But generally if the beam  is about 1 ft less than the same size high stability  plastic boats  these steel vessels come out okay. Its only the recent crop of  designers that have simply designed for fibreglass and transferred  the design to steel that have done badly Van Der Stadt is an example  of this. Many of Dudley Dixs small steel boats have stability numbers  over 130 degrees even in his small Hout Bay Design. His Ankon 38 is  well over 140.  Roberts early steel designs with the narrow beam had  excellent numbers his new designs which pursued beam are not that  great. As a rough rule of thumb 1 foot less in beam for the same size  as fibreglass makes steel boats okay.  STIXS  and STOPS is obsolete and more current models barring the  current CE standards are much better at getting the correct numbers.   There is no excuse for any mainstraim designers not having a full  stability suite of software, that is the only way to accurately come  up with a figure, besides they could come up with a number for every  possible loading.  Will    --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern" <burr.halpern@a...> wrote: > Hey Alex, >  > As moderator, please do me a favor and point out that nowhere in my  long post did > I call Brent's design's ugly. I used two metaphors intended to  reflect two very > different points of view. The fact that both contained the  word"Ugly" and derived > from the less gender senitive side of our sport was probably a faux  paux on my > part. In any event, I do not want to get into a running gun battle  with Brent. It > is clear to me that if I post engineering data showing that 3/16"  steel is not as > strong in an impact as 1/2" glass it will be dismissed out of hand.  Or if I start > citing current data rather than a Marchaj's 20 year old data about  designs that > were already obsolete twenty years ago, it will be dismissed  as "bumble bee's in > flight logic". >  > (Which may be the perfect analogy since it too is a very dated  example. That > analogy about the buble bee not being able to theoretically fly  dates back to the > very early modeling of aerodynamics in the 1940's. Using current  technology we > are precisely able to model how a bumble bee flies.) >  > To wildly throw out that modern boats have a ultimate stabilty of  120 degrees is > just plain bullshit. That has not been the case in the last 10  years with most > modern boats achieving 135 degrees or more positive stability with  many IMS based > race boats achieving 160 degrees and up. I also wonder why Brent  thinks he has a > positive stability above 120 degrees. In EU testing of actual steel  hulled and > decked small vessels they were generally found to have very small  righting angles > because of their high centers of gravity. They look good on  surrogate righting > moment approximation but according to the STIX (Stability index  calculation) > studies in actual righting moment situations did very poorly. >  > In any event, there is no more use to me trying to explain all of  that on the > Origami Boats board than it would to try to explain carbon dating  to a > fundimentalist Christain. I did not want to imply that I thought  Brent's boats > were ugly, ( I think aethetics are in the mind of the beholder) and  I don't wish > to leave the impression that I had. While I don't particularly like  Brent's > voodoo approach to the science of naval architecture, I don't think  that I should > get in a running gun battle with him either so please be so kind as  to point out > that I never said they were ugly. >  > I'll see you at 'light cruisers', a world much closer to my own. > Thanks > jeff >  >  > Regards > Jeff >  > Alex Christie wrote: >  > > Dear Group, > > > > After reading Sara's excellent post, I have to revise what I said > > about coastal sailing! It isn't a walk in the park, at times, > > although I initially painted it that way. I was thinking of my own > > area, which is the more benign southern coast near Courtenay.  There > > is very little current, and the waterways are quite open and  easily > > navigated (for the most part). But a little further north, "Up- coast" > > as it is often called, is a region full of perils equal in  ferocity > > to that which can be found far offshore. Weather, current and > > isolation are three elements which rule in those parts. You are  just > > as much left to your own devices as in the middle of the Pacific > > ocean. > > > > Alex > > > > (moderator) > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@e... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@e... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
80|70|2001-05-17 10:06:38|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Ugly|> Certainly Bruce Farr was no believer in high static stability, and   most in the race world believed that it hampered speed.  I agree with the tenor of your remarks, and your comments reveal a  deeper knowledge than my own, but I want to make a comment on the  above.   A racing yacht designer is at the mercy of the creator of the rating  rule. He must work to design the most seaworthy boat possible within  the envelope of potentially winning designs. If it is not possible to  meet some criterion of seaworthiness (e.g. some stability standard)  then either seaworthiness is compromised or the designer seeks some  other line of work. This was all made completely clear by the Fastnet  disaster.    As to engineering, I think it only fair to consider that a design  office like Farr's which has worked on many high-profile, highly  funded programs has developed some proprietary information about  structure. Or, to use an older example, if Rod Stephens said a boat  was good to go, that would mean more than nominal compliance with a  bureaucratic standard.  I am suspicious of bureaucratic standards in any event. There was an  excellent article by Kurt Hughes in Multihulls magazine some years  ago about the development of a multihull standard. You don't have to  agree with Hughes' notions of what the standards should be in order  to agree that the system that sets the standard is unrealistic about  yachts.   Peter|
81|81|2001-05-17 13:00:34|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Will's posts really hit at the core of these issues...|I think that the series of posts by Will- 'Willyacht' really hit on a  lot of key points. Boiling them down, older structural design  guidelines typically were 'scantling rules'. These attempted to use  empirical formulas to develop structural component sizes based on  'standard framing and skinning models'. These worked fine and were  pretty conservative when used as they were intended. In principle,  designers could enter the characteristics of a design that was similar  in character to an assumed 'type' and end up with appropriate frame  and skin scantling. These models did not attempt to do any stress  mapping but basically attempted to design for assumed 'worst case'  loadings based on what worked in the past. This is what we used when  we were designing steel hulled vessels in the early 1980's.  The failure of these scantling rules is that they really did not  provide design data for alternative construction techniques, such as  the 'frameless construction' techniques being discussed on this forum.  In the past when designers wanted to design something 'out of the  ordinary' they would rely on simple static calculations which used  empirical loading coefficients that assumed reasonable safety factors.  These empirical loading coefficients were pretty good for normal  conditions but many designers would augment these loadings in areas  where they were percieved higher loading or risk. (For example a  designer friend of mine would calculate the load necessary to stop a  boat dead in tracks at full speed and spread that load over a 4 square  inch area. That load would be used for the static calculation of the  forward third of the boat below the heeled water line of the boat, and  would design fin keels around twice the load of a dead stop at max  speed.)As Will mentions, Deutche Veritas produces one of the more  conservative and ballanced set of coefficients.  These empirical design practices were really all that could be done  because accurate stress mapping and the tools to use this stress  mapping data was so far beyond the financial ability of a normal  designer. Even today the most accurate of stress mapping tools,  'finite element analysis' is only available to the most well funded  projects. That said, and as Will's post was suggesting, there are some  pretty reasonably priced and readily accessible simplified yacht  structure programs that produce reasonable localized loadings. Using  these loadings, a designer using reasonable judgement can size skins  and framing that should work quite well.    It is a similar situation with stability calculations. In the past,  very simplified calculation systems tried to develop 'rate' stability  of boats using 'surrogate' calculations. In other words these  surrogate calculations did not attempt to actually calculate the  actual stability of the boats, which was very difficult using hand  calculations or even early computer programs, but would look at  factors affecting stability and take a simplified rough guess at how a  boat might perform in extremis. Today there are some very good  software packages which actually come much closer to predicting static  stability curves. These stability prediction programs have really  turned our previous our earlier rough stability curves on their ears.  Heavy cruising boats have been found to not do as well as we all would  have assumed and that lighter boats with deeper centers of gravity  have done much better than expected.   Coming back to the issue of real world designing a 'safe sailing  vessel', today, designers use a wide range of methods to make these  two critical design evaluations, from simple seat of the pants 'I did  this before and it hasn't broken yet' to finite element analysis of  major projects. Each designer must decide what works for their own  practice. I would be very interested in the hearing about the  techniques that Brent employs to calculate the stability curves and  structural scantlings for his designs.   Lastly, I never said that I thought Brent's boats were ugly!   Respectfully Jeff|
82|66|2001-05-17 16:29:17|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Boatbuilders in france using frameless techniques|To balance well and have a lot of directional stability, a boat  should have the same longitudinal centre of buoyancy when heeled 30  degrees as upright . If she squats slightly in the stern it's OK, but  if the bow sinks and the stern rises as she heels, she will have very  little directional stability. Thus very lean bows and wide "powerful"  stern quarters will make a boat cantankerous on the helm in a  following sea. My las boat had that problem .    For my current boat, I narrowed the stern by about three inces on  each side , and added 3 inches to the foreward waterline beam on each  side. I then extended the transom about three feet aft and sqaued her  stern down.   The difference was amazing . The new boat can be gotten to self  steer with 15 knots of wind  on the quarter with the helm free and no  self steering, something the old boat would never do. Even motoring I can leave the helm for long periods of time.   With so much extra directional stability, she loses a lot more speed  when I tack.This would be a curse for round the bouys racing boats,  which is why they are designed with such wide sterns and narrow bows,  to eliminate much of that directional stability.For offshore ,  shorthanded cruising, however, priorities are the exact  opposite.Directional stability improves speed when you are being  steered by a windvane in a straight line. You don't have to shorten   sail and reef to keep her going straight.   Twin keels with an angle of only 15 degrees off the vertical are  more efficient when you are only heeled 15 degrees, but at greater  angles of heel , when you really need it they are far less efficient.   The greater the angle off the vertical, the less the intereaction  between them .   Higher aspect means higher leverage on the keel with a smaller,  narrower  base to support them. The structural strength of higher  aspect keels would be less for a given amount of material. As " if you  haven't been aground , you haven't been around" applies to all  cruising boats, structural strength may become critical.   Bulbs do lower the center of gravity, but can be extremely labour  intensive. Perhaps the use of retired oxygen bottles may be an option  with a little cutting and modification. Does anyone know what kind of  steel thay are made of ?                                           Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > This is much closer to what I have been suggesting in some of my  > earlier posts. The Armelle approaches my idea of proper yacht design  > design thinking. Fairly shallow canoe body, fairly straight and very  > fair buttocks, fine bow and more powerful stern sections. Even the  > use of bilge keels follows the current thinking on the proper  > design of bilge keels which says, if you are going to do bilge keels  > they should be as high aspect ratio as you can make them and set-up  to  > be vertical at about 15 degrees of heel which is also the case on  the  > Armelle(More than 15 degrees of outward angle and they are less  effect  > at ideal heel angles in the range of 10-15 degrees and they form a  > tripper when hove to across breaking waves). They have used bulbs on  > each keel to lower the center of gravity which should give them a  very  > high angle of positive stability.  It is hard to tell from the  picture  > but the one shortcoming of the Armelle in my book is that the bow  > seems to have a flat on the bottom rather than being Vee'd for the  > first third or so of the boat. A bottom flat really pounds in a chop  > and can be pretty noisy when you are trying to get some sleep. >  > Jeff  >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  > wrote: > > Thanks to a tip from one of our members (merci "yah02840"), I have  > dug up the website of Meta, who builds yachts of aluminum. They use  no  > frames and very thick aluminum plate. Not exactly the same as  Brent's  > technique, but close. They have yielded some very nice results. > >  > > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm > >  > > See attached photo of "Armelle" a twin keeled 17.5 metre boat on a  > mudflat. > >  > > Alex > >  > > (moderator) |
83|70|2001-05-17 16:47:48|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Stability, was: Re Ugly|I have a model of the 31 foot twin keeler  made of 3/16th plywood for  the hull and 1/8th inch plywood for the decks and cabin giving the  model the same vertical centre of gravity as the full sized shell. I  gave it the same ballast ratio as the full sized boat in lead,and the  equivalent sized mast in fir.    In water I found it extremely difficult to get it to stay upside  down . If I placed it very carefully upside down on totally calm water  it stayed that way briefly. With the slightest disturbance, a half  inch ripple for example, it would snap upright instantly.Waves big  enough to capsize a boat wouldn't dissappear as soon as they'd done  their dirty work, and the sea become instantly calm.   If I tried , however, to place the boat down at an angle of say 5  degrees, it would right itself instantly.   This example is just a shell. The full sized cruising yacht would  have much greater righting ability, as %90  of the stowage in the boat  is well below the waterline.   As Bruce Roberts has well stated,everything below the centre of  buoyancy in a loaded cruising boat counts as ballast ratio as long as  it's well secured.   When reality and theorie disagree , get real and trust reality.                                             Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., John.Olson@t... wrote: > I have no problem beleiving that Brent's 31 footer has positive  > stability up to 120 degrees.  I've had Eclectus near that once, in a  > storm north of Bermuda, and it popped back upright faster than you  > you would think possible.  The radar reflector on the top of the  mast  > was damaged when it hit the water, and the trajectory of the cabbage  > that flew out of the galley and smashed against the cabin side  > opposite suggests the boat rolled to over 110 degrees.  Stability  > index calculations are sketchy rules-of-thumb at best, and don't  come  > close to predicting how a vessel will react when it's in conditions  > where all that righting moment is used in anger. >  > Cheers >  > John >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern" <burr.halpern@a...> wrote: > > I also wonder why Brent thinks he has a > > positive stability above 120 degrees. In EU testing of actual  steel  > hulled and > > decked small vessels they were generally found to have very small  > righting angles > > because of their high centers of gravity. They look good on  > surrogate righting > > moment approximation but according to the STIX (Stability index  > calculation) > > studies in actual righting moment situations did very poorly. > > |
84|70|2001-05-17 16:57:16|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Angle of heel|Take a beachball. Superglue a 5% ballast ratio to one side . Throw it  in water. Try to get it to float with the ballast side up for any  length of time. The lack of any kind of keel ,half beam or whatever ,  doesn't change anything.   This is a good example of how the shape and buoyancy of the  submerged portions are a  major factor in self righting ability.                                           Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > I congratulate you on surviving a knock down of nearly 120 degrees  of  > heel. To put that in perspective, > -At 45 degrees surfaces that are normally vertical become easier to  > walk on than normally horizontal surfaces. > -at 90 degrees, most boats dip their spreaders in the water and the  > deck is vertical so it is very difficult for someone on deck to stay  > aboard, primarily hanging vertical and using normally vertical  > surfaces like ladders to get a foot hold. Almost any loose item on  > board will fall to leeward, including unrestrained batteries. > -Typically by 95 to 100 degrees, most boats have the tip of their  mast  > in the water. Vertical surfaces are now pointing downward and so  crew  > on deck typically are hanging from what ever they can grab. Winch  > handles in normally vertical open pockets will slide overboard.  > -Typically by 100-105 degrees the mast is in the water up to the  > spreaders. At this point most boats are past the point of maximimum  > positive displacement. (In other words the amount of force trying  > to right the boat has begun to decrease) They are sliding to leeward  > on their topsides and their mast and sails to leeward are generating  > some "lift' downward trying to overturn the vessel. This dynamic  > lift can be emormous and is what generally damages rigs in a  > rollover. The weight of seawater on the sails begin to dampen the  > speed at which a boat will come up and can infact actually work to  > pull the boat over.  > -By 120 to 130 degrees the base of the mast on most boats are in the  > water. Dorades and the like are in the water. > -By 135 degrees objects that were previously right side up are now  > upside down and anything which is not held down and has not slid  will  > fall across the cabin.  It becomes easier to stand on the cabin top  > than to stand on the side of normally vertical surfaces. At this  point  > most boats that do not have a keel equal in depth to half its beam  > (which is why most surrogate positive stability calculations look so  > heavily at draft and beam) has pretty much lost positive stability  as  > the weight of the keel is now inboard of the boat's center of  > buoyancy. Heavy decks and rigs become the ballast that tries to pull    > the boat over toward inversion and it takes a wave of other  > destabilizing force to rock the boat sufficiently to bring the boat  > back up.  >  > When we read published ranges of positive stability, these are  > generally based on surrogate formulas that are not terribly accurate  > because they do not include a component for center of gravity and  > generally do include a calculation for the buoyancy of the cabin  > structure. Even when we see full blown positive stability  calculations  > they generally reflect static calculations and as I mentioned above  > the dynamic overturning moments of a boat sliding on her topsides  with  > the mast in the water are tremendous. Modern offshore raceboats are  > required to have a calculated 135 degrees of positive stability  > calculated statically. From Issabelle Autissier's overturning in the  > Southern Ocean, we all know that in the real world that is not  enough  > to predict that the boat will in fact come back up.  >  > Jeff >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., John.Olson@t... wrote: > > I have no problem beleiving that Brent's 31 footer has positive  > > stability up to 120 degrees.  I've had Eclectus near that once, in  a  > > storm north of Bermuda, and it popped back upright faster than you  > > you would think possible.  The radar reflector on the top of the  > mast  > > was damaged when it hit the water, and the trajectory of the  cabbage  > > that flew out of the galley and smashed against the cabin side  > > opposite suggests the boat rolled to over 110 degrees.  Stability  > > index calculations are sketchy rules-of-thumb at best, and don't  > come  > > close to predicting how a vessel will react when it's in  conditions  > > where all that righting moment is used in anger. > >  > > Cheers > >  > > John > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern" <burr.halpern@a...>  wrote: > > > I also wonder why Brent thinks he has a > > > positive stability above 120 degrees. In EU testing of actual  > steel  > > hulled and > > > decked small vessels they were generally found to have very  small  > > righting angles > > > because of their high centers of gravity. They look good on  > > surrogate righting > > > moment approximation but according to the STIX (Stability index  > > calculation) > > > studies in actual righting moment situations did very poorly. > > > |
85|76|2001-05-17 17:02:21|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Swain 40 ft?|Plans for the 26 footer are $200, the 31 $300 ,the 36 $350 ,and the 40  $500. There are several being built in Nanaimo, one in Sechelt, one in  Richmond BC, one in Terrace, one in Northern Alberta, etc.   The boats all have positive stability to 175 degrees.                                                 Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote: > Anybody building one? >  > What are the prices for Brent Swains plans? >  > I read some discussion on positive static stability anybody have  > figures for the 36 Footer and 40 footer? The pilot house version  will  > probably be self righting? >  > Will |
86|66|2001-05-17 17:07:31|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Boatbuilders in france using frameless techniques|The only reliable standard for yachts is "what have they done, what  punishment have they proven themselves capable of taking without  structural failure , how many trouble free miles have they traveled."   There is no mathematical equivalent of use and abuse in the real  world .                                               Brent Swain                                           --- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote: > The French have an unhealthy appetite for super wide beam boats with  > poor static postive stability. What is even amzing is that i met a  > Frenchman in Sydney ho just returned from the South Pole in a Meta  > boat with a 101 degrees positive, he was convinced that that figure  > was okay. >  > I must admitt i like the look and practicality of the many French  > Chine and Frameless boats, they have shallow draft and many other  > virtues, but stability is not one of them. Not that this cant be  > corrected. Besides what boat is not noisy in a chop and who can  > really sleep in the bows anyway when thing get lumpy. >  >  > Will >  >  >  >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > > This is much closer to what I have been suggesting in some of my  > > earlier posts. The Armelle approaches my idea of proper yacht  > design  > > design thinking. Fairly shallow canoe body, fairly straight and  > very  > > fair buttocks, fine bow and more powerful stern sections. Even the  > > use of bilge keels follows the current thinking on the proper  > > design of bilge keels which says, if you are going to do bilge  > keels  > > they should be as high aspect ratio as you can make them and  set-up  > to  > > be vertical at about 15 degrees of heel which is also the case on  > the  > > Armelle(More than 15 degrees of outward angle and they are less  > effect  > > at ideal heel angles in the range of 10-15 degrees and they form a  > > tripper when hove to across breaking waves). They have used bulbs  > on  > > each keel to lower the center of gravity which should give them a  > very  > > high angle of positive stability.  It is hard to tell from the  > picture  > > but the one shortcoming of the Armelle in my book is that the bow  > > seems to have a flat on the bottom rather than being Vee'd for the  > > first third or so of the boat. A bottom flat really pounds in a  > chop  > > and can be pretty noisy when you are trying to get some sleep. > >  > > Jeff  > >  > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  > > wrote: > > > Thanks to a tip from one of our members (merci "yah02840"), I  > have  > > dug up the website of Meta, who builds yachts of aluminum. They  use  > no  > > frames and very thick aluminum plate. Not exactly the same as  > Brent's  > > technique, but close. They have yielded some very nice results. > > >  > > > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm > > >  > > > See attached photo of "Armelle" a twin keeled 17.5 metre boat on  > a  > > mudflat. > > >  > > > Alex > > >  > > > (moderator) |
87|87|2001-05-17 19:47:18|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Welcome Will!|I'm happy to see that Will has climbed on board the group. His posts to the metal boats forum at boatbuilding.com were always a welcome addition and I'm sure his contributions here will generate some great discussions. I notice that some quite technical aspects of sailboat design have been forthcoming. Jeff, in particular seems to be very knowledgeable in this area and there have been some interesting points brought forth.     On a less esoteric note, perhaps some of the more mundane details of rigging,types of rigs, interior finishing/plans etc. that Brent or any others have found to be of practical use may be offered up as grist for the group mill. I understand that the rig most commonly used by Brent is a staysail rigged sloop. How have you found this to perform ? How do the sailing qualities of the bilgekeeler compare to the fin keel, which I believe Winston Bushnell has chosen for his latest boat. Comments?|
88|88|2001-05-18 00:56:16|Tasha Carleton|effects of steel hull on compass|How is a compass affected in a steel boat, and can any problems with its use be corrected?  Tasha   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/|
89|88|2001-05-18 06:19:29|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: effects of steel hull on compass|It can be corrected by swinging the compass yourself or getting a  compass adjuster to do it for you, read all about it in  Bowditch. You can use an electronic Compass like the KVH or a Gyro compass  which self corrects. The KVH use microelectronics so is economical on  power consumption, Gyros are still high current consumers. There are  some advances like solid state gyros but these are still unproven. In  the mean time make sure you get a good steel boat compass. But dont  forget the basic techniques of using 3270 to get azimuth and swing  your compass using a simple sundial.  Will -  -- In origamiboats@y..., Tasha Carleton <svbanshee@y...> wrote:  > How is a compass affected in a steel boat, and can any > problems with its use be corrected? >  > Tasha >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ |
90|88|2001-05-18 06:22:54|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: effects of steel hull on compass|Tasha  Look at good compasses like the Sestrel Range, the Moore is a good  steel boat Compass and does not have those huge compensator balls  hanging about to hit you in the ribs when things get a bit rough. You can also mount you ordinary compass up the aluminium stick a bit  to avoid problems.      --- In origamiboats@y..., Tasha Carleton <svbanshee@y...> wrote: > How is a compass affected in a steel boat, and can any > problems with its use be corrected? >  > Tasha >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ |
91|88|2001-05-18 15:51:40|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: effects of steel hull on compass|Friends have had their compasses adjusted by professional adjusters.  It's a tricky process. Personally I've never bothered, I've just took  what it told me with a heavy grain of salt and checked courses with a  visual backbearing when leaving port , and other alternatives.   Handbearing compasses are useless on a steel boat. A steel boat will  change a compasses reading from 100 yards away.    Friends in California were discussing fluxgate compasses . When I  asked them what it costs for a fluxgate compass they said $600 US.    That is the cost of 6 GPS units. There is far greater likelyhood of  a fluxgate quitting than all 6 GPS quitting.The GPS will tell you far  more than the fluxgate will.   The professional compass adjuster told us that fluxgate compasses  created far more work for him than they took. He said people try a  fluxgate for a while, give up on it ,then call him.   With a GPS one can make one's own deviation card and adjust one's  own compass. You can also constantly check the deviation at different  angles of heel and on different courses , and have a pretty good idea  of how things work before the power fails.         Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., Tasha Carleton <svbanshee@y...> wrote: > How is a compass affected in a steel boat, and can any > problems with its use be corrected? >  > Tasha >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ |
92|92|2001-05-19 01:51:35|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|In response:Brent's reply on 'calculation'of structure and and stab|Thanks for responding to my request for an explanation of your  methods for calculating stability and structure. If I understood  your reponse you basically do not calculate either, relying on  the past perforance of prior designs to inform your decisions on  new designs. That actually is abn age old and a very venerable  approach to design.   That said I seriously question your assertion that your boats "all  have positive stability to 175 degrees" especially if that number is  based on model testing rather than a static calculations or full  sized vessel measurments. That is a very extreme stability that  testing on real life vessels suggests just is not achieveable.   The US Coast Guard did a lot of work on this issue in their efforts to  construct their new rescue boats. These boats are designed to  routinely self-right but the best they could achieve in real life  testing of thier full sized vessels was in the 160-170 degree range.  One of the interesting aspects of their studies was confirmation of  the issue of scale in model testing for stability. Using very  accurately scaled models the models performed as much as 20 degrees  better than the final testing on full sized vessels.   Still, even factoring in a correction for scale, if you can achieve a  positive stability range to 150 degrees that is quite respectible and  would be an exceptional performance for a steel hull and decked  vessel.   Respectfully Jeff   <"The only reliable standard for yachts is "what have they done, what  punishment have they proven themselves capable of taking without  structural failure , how many trouble free miles have they traveled." There is no mathematical equivalent of use and abuse in the real  world.  Brent Swain">|
93|93|2001-05-19 22:51:34|Alex Christie|Swain 40 photo uploaded to group files - world premier viewing!!|Dear Group,  Met up with Brent the other day in Comox and bummed this great, never- been-seen photo off of him. After some wrestling with our local  school's scanner, I have finally scanned the photo of the first 40  footer to be built, and it has been posted to the "Files" section in  the album, "A Tongan Album".  Brent met up with the 40 footer by chance on a Tongan atoll this  year. Also encountered in the same atoll was a Kingfisher 20' twin- keeler.   The Swain 40 featuress a pilot house, aft cabin, and I think twin  keels, with skeg-hung outboard rudder. Rig is a sloop.  The romance of the palm trees in the background is definitely hard to  resist...  Enjoy,  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
94|94|2001-05-19 23:04:15|David Hilliar|Swain Designs|          Hi Is there a site where I can find out more about Brets Designs  and in particular the 40 ft Design David  |
95|92|2001-05-20 05:48:18|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: In response:Brent's reply on 'calculation'of structure and and |Brents figures are obviously based on the pilot house structure and  possibly the sealed off steel tube mast which can add as much as 20  degrees positive. As you know the pilot house can make the boat  totally positive and self righting to 180 degrees. The British Pilot  lifeboats and numerous Coast guard vessels use this to full effect.  These larger rescue boats are harder to self right since they dont  depend largely on ballast to self right. Yacht structures offer far  less roll resistance. Many older traditional designs were self  righting and had no negative stability, Marchaj documents this well  in his books.   There are a number of Pilot House Steel Designs from numerous  designers who have figures in this range. You also have to factor in  the narrower than normal beam in his Designs, this all can lead to  good figures. But at the end of the day the best thing to do is pull  the boat over and verify the figures.  Anyway at least its better  than the average steel or fibreglass boat. Considering that designs   like Van Der Stadts and Roberts  have figures below 120  most as low  as 107 degrees, Brent has little to worry about.   Will                   --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > Thanks for responding to my request for an explanation of your  > methods for calculating stability and structure. If I understood  > your reponse you basically do not calculate either, relying on  > the past perforance of prior designs to inform your decisions on  > new designs. That actually is abn age old and a very venerable  > approach to design.  >  > That said I seriously question your assertion that your boats "all  > have positive stability to 175 degrees" especially if that number  is  > based on model testing rather than a static calculations or full  > sized vessel measurments. That is a very extreme stability that  > testing on real life vessels suggests just is not achieveable.  >  > The US Coast Guard did a lot of work on this issue in their efforts  to  > construct their new rescue boats. These boats are designed to  > routinely self-right but the best they could achieve in real life  > testing of thier full sized vessels was in the 160-170 degree  range.  > One of the interesting aspects of their studies was confirmation of  > the issue of scale in model testing for stability. Using very  > accurately scaled models the models performed as much as 20 degrees  > better than the final testing on full sized vessels.  >  > Still, even factoring in a correction for scale, if you can achieve  a  > positive stability range to 150 degrees that is quite respectible  and  > would be an exceptional performance for a steel hull and decked  > vessel.  >  > Respectfully > Jeff  >  > <"The only reliable standard for yachts is "what have they done,  what  > punishment have they proven themselves capable of taking without  > structural failure , how many trouble free miles have they  traveled." > There is no mathematical equivalent of use and abuse in the real  > world. >  Brent Swain"> |
96|92|2001-05-20 11:20:05|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|In response to Will's comment on 180 degree positive stability|I basically agree with much of Will's post but there are two points  that I want to address further. In Will's post he wrote, "As you know  the pilot house can make the boat totally positive and self-righting  to 180 degrees." Actually, I don't agree with that. I  occasionally attend the quarterly local SBYC (Small Boat and Yacht  Council). The SBYC is made up of naval architects, yacht designers,  and boat builders that primarily focuses (unlike SNAME, Society of  Naval Architects and Marine Engineers)on the design of small craft.  One of the more enlightening presentations was on the design and  testing process for the Coast Guards new high hazard 43 foot rescue  boat. (I believe two of these are deployed in your neck of the woods  on the Columbia River.)  These boats are aluminum 43 foot power craft. They are quite narrow  when compared to 'normal power craft' and are closer to the hull  proportions of a cruising sailboat. They are fully ballasted with a  fairly deep keel plus they have enormous amounts of weight in the  engines and tankage both of which are purposefully very low in the  boat. These boats apparently have two configurations; with a sealed  pilot house, and without a pilot house but with an windscreen and  rigid hardtop. They were especially designed with a hull and deck  shape, and weight distribution to have as close to 360 degrees of  positive stability as is possible  In these presentations, we followed the design from model testing, to  the testing of full size vessels, to data gathered in actual  deployment. In model testing and computer simulation, it was fairly  easily to achieve positive stability approaching 180 degrees from  either side.   When the first boats were completed, the full sized boats were  actually tested in a Bayou in Louisiana where the prototype boats were  built. These were flat water tests in controlled conditions and roll  over moments and angles were precisely measured. The boats were tested  with varying configurations of fuel and water and were repetitively  tested in conditions that were similar to those in the model tests.   In the full sized boat tests, these boats did not accomplish 180  degrees of positive stability. The results variety from the best at  somewhere in the high 160's degree range (the pilot house sealed and  tanks empty which was a bit counter intuitive) to the worst somewhere  in the low 120 degree range(pilothouse companionway hatch open and  full fuel tanks). (For the record, I am remembering these angles off  the top of my head and so I am not extremely confident that I am  remembering the exact angle for the flooded pilot house)  In any event, these were boats that were heavily ballasted. Their  hull, deck and super-structures had been configured to promote  righting. They had been designed to keep deck structure and deck  hardware light as possible. With all of that, they did not achieve 170  degrees of positive stability in actual testing. I know this may be a  distinction without much of a real world difference.   One of the more interesting aspects of this testing was the affect of  a flooded pilot house. These boats are designed to be able to knock  down to a high angle without flooding their pilot house. They actually  have watertight companionway hatches and climate control in the pilot  house so that they can be completely battened down. In the discussion  of the behaivor of these boats, one amazing thing was the really poor  performance of these boats once the pilot house was flooded. This  poor performance suggested the need to have a watertight door to the  pilot house and to make certain that it is battened down in severe  weather.   The other point, I wanted to touch on was your comment the overall  stability curves on Van DeStadt designs. You indicated that Van  De Stadt's designs typically have 120 degrees or less of positive  stability. I was wondering where that information came from. I know  that they designed some IOR era racers that had comparatively small  angles of positive stability, but I am under the impression that their  current range of cruising designs have comparatively high angles of  positive stability. [Van de Stadt also designed an Open Class 40,  single handed ocean racer, with moveable water ballast, a canting keel  and rig. This boat has a positive stability curve that defies the  imagination and does infact have a range of positive stability (with  the mast, water ballast and keel hard over to leeward) of less than  120 degrees but this is an asymetric stability curve that achieves  positive stability at 175 degrees. These moveable ballast boats are  an aberation in so many ways that I don't consider them relevant to  this discussion.]  Can you please elaborate on your source of information for stating  that Van De Stadts have low angles of positive stability? Nothing that  I have found suggests that to be the case.   Respectfully Jeff|
97|94|2001-05-20 16:23:28|Alex Christie|Re: Swain Designs|David,  There is no site currently for Brent's boat that I know of, other  than this one.  The 40 footer is the same as the 36 and 31 footer in terms of  construction methods, but is of higher displacement.  Any specific questions you have about the 40 footer would best be  addressed to Brent himself at brentswain38@...  When the 40 footer currently in the South Pacific returns to  Vancouver later this summer, there will be a chance to get more  information about its performance. I will try and get this  information up on this site.  Alex  (moderator)   --- In origamiboats@y..., "David Hilliar" <david@t...> wrote: > Hi > Is there a site where I can find out more about Brets Designs and  in particular the 40 ft Design > David |
98|92|2001-05-20 17:22:32|turpin@yahoo.com|Superstructure hurts stability, in the general sense |There are two problems with the notion of using superstructure -- such as a pilothouse -- to  increase stability.  The first Jeff has touched upon: superstructure provides buoyancy when the  boat is capsized only if it remains watertight.  The very events that lead to capsize are also  likely to lead to pilothouse flooding.   In my mind, there is a larger issue. Adding  superstructure raises the center of gravity,  thereby hurting stability prior to capsize. Yeah, in theory, in may bring you back up in the rare event of a capsize. But the rest of the time,  while the boat is upright, it makes the boat more tender, increases your roll angle, makes the  crew less comfortable, and decreases the boat's ability to carry sail. Stability is not just  about returning from capsize. There are lots of other ways that it is important to sailboats, at normal angles of heel. And in all those other ways, a pilothouse or other superstructure only hurts stability.   Russell|
99|92|2001-05-21 06:21:45|Alex Christie|Wheelhouse and stability|Thank-you Russell for raising the superstructure-weight issue, as it  is a good one to air in this forum. I'm glad we are all having fun,  and the debate is lively with good sports all around. I'm sure Brent  has something to say on this, but I'll stick my oar in for the  moment, and he can deal with the aftermath!  Russell has asserted in his post,   > In my mind, there is a larger issue. Adding  > superstructure raises the center of gravity,  > thereby hurting stability prior to capsize.    By all means no one should load on weight up high on a sailing vessel  willy-nilly, without thought; this is an excellent theoretical  guideline for designing a sailing yacht, and should always be kept in  mind. However, I might point out that any significant effect of the  application of this theory more accurately applies to boats with  quite large pilot houses bristling with various gear, and not much to  Brents boats "as designed" (owner-builders may do differently, but  this is out of Brent's control, and this can be debated in a  different string). To meaningfully debate the valid point Russell has  raised, we must focus on the actual vessel in question rather than  any generality, because the differences may be significant.   [It may be useful at this juncture to go back and take a close look  at the photos of Brent's own 31 footer in the files section in order  to properly understand the meaning of this post.]  In practice, Brent's designs purposefully have very minimal, low- profile pilot houses which may be more accurately described as a  raised section of the main cabin. They are integrated with the main  cabin, whereas regular pilot houses are usually a separate area with  a raised floor, sometimes with the engine underneath. Brent's boats  usually have the engine further aft, and the pilot house floor  occupies that vacated zone that would be otherwise occupied by a  diesel in the average pilot house yacht. I recall standing in that  raised section on a 36 footer (Costa Vida) a few years ago, and  noting that the main cabin floor was only a step or so down, maybe 6  to 8 inches lower (Brent or another owner might be able to correct  this number).  The raised cabin roof/pilot house has a minimal band of extra steel  (punctuated by regular swaths of plexiglass, which is of course  lighter than steel) to gain that height, so there is not much extra  weight in it that the cabin roof wouldn't already have if there were  no pilot house and the cabin roof were all one height.  As to the integrity of the pilot house upon capsize, the aft door- hatch on Brent's boats built as designed easily seals off the vessel  from the outside world with the rubber gasketed aluminum 1 piece  doorway which dogs down tight in an instant. As long as this hatch is  closed when the boat goes over, there will be no gushes of water  getting in that house. In conditions where a capsize is bound to  occur, a person should be steering from inside, in any case, not  standing vulnerably outside waiting to be washed away, or fiddling  with drop-boards with numb hands. A vessel with only drop-boards, or  flimsy wooden louvered doors seems dangerous in bad conditions in  comparison to the Swain hatch-system . I like how just a small bump  on the aft edge of the pilot house is raised to accommodate this  hatch, instead of raising the entire roof level to fit the hatch, an  feature which consciously addresses the concerns previously raised in  the other post. Very few yachts sport hatches like this, though they  should. Amidst the fury of a full-blown gale in the middle of the  Pacific Ocean I would find such a thing very confidence-inspiring.   Alex Christie  (moderator)   --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > There are two problems with the notion of using > superstructure -- such as a pilothouse -- to  > increase stability.  The first Jeff has touched > upon: superstructure provides buoyancy when the  > boat is capsized only if it remains watertight.  > The very events that lead to capsize are also  > likely to lead to pilothouse flooding.  >  > In my mind, there is a larger issue. Adding  > superstructure raises the center of gravity,  > thereby hurting stability prior to capsize. Yeah, > in theory, in may bring you back up in the rare > event of a capsize. But the rest of the time,  > while the boat is upright, it makes the boat more > tender, increases your roll angle, makes the  > crew less comfortable, and decreases the boat's > ability to carry sail. Stability is not just  > about returning from capsize. There are lots of > other ways that it is important to sailboats, > at normal angles of heel. And in all those other > ways, a pilothouse or other superstructure only > hurts stability.  >  > Russell |
100|92|2001-05-21 07:48:34|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: In response to Will's comment on 180 degree positive stability|Interesting data, i must accept the results from the real world  testing of those particular boats. These testing results will vary  from design to design of coarse. This fact as we know all points to  the designer doing his job correctly in the first place and  subjecting all designs to a full stability study. Something that some  refuse to do, in my opinion totally unprofessional these days with  ample computer power and stability software suites that kids in grade  5 can use.  As for the Van Der Stadt Results, i have been involved in building  and having these vessels accepted for survey. I have full stability  curves for most of their recent designs on file, 34,37 40 etc. They  dont release their results, but in the cases i was involved in they  had to.    VS 34 125 degrees in steel   VS 37 107 degrees in steel   VS 40 120 degrees in steel  Aluminium figures are slightly better. It is fortunate for the likes  of Van Der Stadt and Bruce Roberts that there designs are not being  commercially built, since this would have revealed fully the true  figures.  In most cases after doing a incline test most faired worst when fully  loaded for cruising. These figures are poor in my opinion but are  typical for steel vessels. I must emphasize that i am not taking pot  shots at them particularly, but in general most steel boat designs    have poor static stability. If you have more current data please let  me know. I would be happy to retract my statements  and discard any  of the obsolete data files.  As for "recent" cruising design yes i will agree that most have  better than average stability but these are mostly the large  production boat companies wanting to meet CE requirements. In my  opinion the rude awakening as only occured in the last 18 months.   Very few one off and limited production designs have altered their  designs in any way.  The figure of 120 degrees was the norm and this  does not alter the fact that the vast majority of the production  fleet have below average static stability figures. These figures are  born out in US Sails extensive IMS database.   I would not be concerned in  45 ft plus boats, but anything below  that is risky. You can look at many so called legendary cruising  designs that have dismal static stability figures. But if i was a  cruising sailor in the market for a large cruising boat i would look  at one of the latest IMS designs because they certainly state of the  art in terms of structure and stability.  The last Sydney to Hobart  race fleet put most of the current cruising fleet to shame in terms  of overall seaworthiness, considering they were considered extreme go  fast boats. Any of these current IMS designs i would be happy to  cruise in with a few more ammenities.   You can still pick up any  issue of Cruising World and you can still find reviewers commenting  that 120 degrees offers a good safe range. This opinion is still held  by the vast majority of so called "cruising experts". Considering  that most of the current IMS fleet will be hovering above 140 degrees one wonders what kind of elephants foot you need bring to bear to  convince cruising sailors and designers of the overall merit of  safety through stability. Two Sydney to Hobart disasters have made  race designers think again and most owners who have been there have  agreed.  I am only concentrating on static stability since this represents a  major weakness of cruising designs at the moment, we all know there  are more sophisticated methods for determining  the vulneribilty of  yachts to capsize. These methods are well understood by most  stability experts even though they are complicated to calculate.  Concentrating on the capsize angle gives us goal posts to aim for,  when we meet these minimum goals we can refine the models and  definitions upwards or downwards. In the mean time hopefully it will  save some lives and stiffle unhealthy commercial developments which  have little real regard for some peoples safety.  Will     --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > I basically agree with much of Will's post but there are two points  > that I want to address further. In Will's post he wrote, "As you  know  > the pilot house can make the boat totally positive and self- righting  > to 180 degrees." Actually, I don't agree with that. I  > occasionally attend the quarterly local SBYC (Small Boat and Yacht  > Council). The SBYC is made up of naval architects, yacht designers,  > and boat builders that primarily focuses (unlike SNAME, Society of  > Naval Architects and Marine Engineers)on the design of small craft.  > One of the more enlightening presentations was on the design and  > testing process for the Coast Guards new high hazard 43 foot rescue  > boat. (I believe two of these are deployed in your neck of the  woods  > on the Columbia River.) >  > These boats are aluminum 43 foot power craft. They are quite narrow  > when compared to 'normal power craft' and are closer to the hull  > proportions of a cruising sailboat. They are fully ballasted with a  > fairly deep keel plus they have enormous amounts of weight in the  > engines and tankage both of which are purposefully very low in the  > boat. These boats apparently have two configurations; with a sealed  > pilot house, and without a pilot house but with an windscreen and  > rigid hardtop. They were especially designed with a hull and deck  > shape, and weight distribution to have as close to 360 degrees of  > positive stability as is possible >  > In these presentations, we followed the design from model testing,  to  > the testing of full size vessels, to data gathered in actual  > deployment. In model testing and computer simulation, it was fairly  > easily to achieve positive stability approaching 180 degrees from  > either side.  >  > When the first boats were completed, the full sized boats were  > actually tested in a Bayou in Louisiana where the prototype boats  were  > built. These were flat water tests in controlled conditions and  roll  > over moments and angles were precisely measured. The boats were  tested  > with varying configurations of fuel and water and were repetitively  > tested in conditions that were similar to those in the model tests.  >  > In the full sized boat tests, these boats did not accomplish 180  > degrees of positive stability. The results variety from the best at  > somewhere in the high 160's degree range (the pilot house sealed  and  > tanks empty which was a bit counter intuitive) to the worst  somewhere  > in the low 120 degree range(pilothouse companionway hatch open and  > full fuel tanks). (For the record, I am remembering these angles  off  > the top of my head and so I am not extremely confident that I am  > remembering the exact angle for the flooded pilot house) >  > In any event, these were boats that were heavily ballasted. Their  > hull, deck and super-structures had been configured to promote  > righting. They had been designed to keep deck structure and deck  > hardware light as possible. With all of that, they did not achieve  170  > degrees of positive stability in actual testing. I know this may be  a  > distinction without much of a real world difference.  >  > One of the more interesting aspects of this testing was the affect  of  > a flooded pilot house. These boats are designed to be able to knock  > down to a high angle without flooding their pilot house. They  actually  > have watertight companionway hatches and climate control in the  pilot  > house so that they can be completely battened down. In the  discussion  > of the behaivor of these boats, one amazing thing was the really  poor  > performance of these boats once the pilot house was flooded. This  > poor performance suggested the need to have a watertight door to  the  > pilot house and to make certain that it is battened down in severe  > weather.  >  > The other point, I wanted to touch on was your comment the overall  > stability curves on Van DeStadt designs. You indicated that Van  > De Stadt's designs typically have 120 degrees or less of positive  > stability. I was wondering where that information came from. I know  > that they designed some IOR era racers that had comparatively small  > angles of positive stability, but I am under the impression that  their  > current range of cruising designs have comparatively high angles of  > positive stability. [Van de Stadt also designed an Open Class 40,  > single handed ocean racer, with moveable water ballast, a canting  keel  > and rig. This boat has a positive stability curve that defies the  > imagination and does infact have a range of positive stability  (with  > the mast, water ballast and keel hard over to leeward) of less than  > 120 degrees but this is an asymetric stability curve that achieves  > positive stability at 175 degrees. These moveable ballast boats are  > an aberation in so many ways that I don't consider them relevant to  > this discussion.] >  > Can you please elaborate on your source of information for stating  > that Van De Stadts have low angles of positive stability? Nothing  that  > I have found suggests that to be the case.  >  > Respectfully > Jeff |
101|92|2001-05-21 09:39:37|turpin@yahoo.com|To be clear, I'm not arguing against pilothouses|Pilothouses have lots of benefits. A dry, comfortable  watch spot is very important. And I see the advantage of a navstation up where the watch is, rather than  requiring the watch to duck below in order to navigate  or update logs. Though you don't want the watch spot too comfortable, and to tell the truth, in the middle  of the night, it's nice to have a duty that takes you below once or twice an hour. You have to move around a bit on those night watches.  I was NOT arguing that pilothouses are bad. I was  pointing out that pilothouses put weight high, which is a disadvantage that the designer accepts for their benefits.|
102|92|2001-05-21 12:42:25|Alex Christie|my point being that not all pilot houses are alike...|I understand that Russell was not against pilot houses per se, but I  was pointing out that it is important to note that NOT all pilot  houses are built alike, and that in Swain boat, the pilot house is  more accurately just a raised portion of the cabin roof with small  windows in it rather than a wholly separate structure.  Further to  this point, in Brent's case the pilot houses are usually lower than  most, so as to minimize any disadvantages they may cause in return  for their benefits.   I agree with Russell as to the effect of weight up high, and I think  we can concur that this is not a point in dispute. I think we've all  seen some sailboats (and powerboats) with ridiculous amounts of aptly- named "top-hamper" which truly "hampers" the ability of the boat to  function safely and comfortably.   As a final anecdote in support of Russell's point about excess weight  up high, I once saw a home-built steel sailboat at dock in  Belleville, Ontario which had an enourmous tall, boxy full-width  steel cabin (no walk around side decks). Even tied up to the dock it  looked dangerous and unstable, for though there was almost calm water  in the harbour, and there was no wind pushing on the rigging, the  vessel was rocking (lurching, more like it) slowly from side to side  in a most curious way, as if it were constantly trying fall right  over. It would move through top dead centre, then drop quickly until  it picked up some secpndary stability from the hull, bounce off that  and come to top dead centre before "falling" the other way. It gave  me the creeps watching it. Even with extra stores aboard, secured  down low, what would such a vessel be like at sea?  I have not heard of any of Brent's boats exhibiting this behaviour!   Alex Christie  (moderator)    --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > Pilothouses have lots of benefits. A dry, comfortable  > watch spot is very important. And I see the advantage > of a navstation up where the watch is, rather than  > requiring the watch to duck below in order to navigate  > or update logs. Though you don't want the watch spot > too comfortable, and to tell the truth, in the middle  > of the night, it's nice to have a duty that takes you > below once or twice an hour. You have to move around > a bit on those night watches. >  > I was NOT arguing that pilothouses are bad. I was  > pointing out that pilothouses put weight high, which > is a disadvantage that the designer accepts for their > benefits. |
103|103|2001-05-22 10:27:36|pvanderw@optonline.net|Tanton|On the bulletin board at http://www.tantonyachts.com/, Yves-Marie  Tanton notes that he has just sold plans for a 50' Steelstar that he  calls an origami boat. How similar the constrution is to anyone  else's view of 'origami,' I don't know.  On the home page, there is a link to a descripton of his 60'  Steelstar, which might help visualize the 50-footer.  Tanton has designs for several small (e.g. 30-35') yachts of steel  constrution as he likes to design for metal.  Peter|
104|104|2001-05-22 13:23:01|John|Paint|The company I work for is opening a Marina/Boat yard. I was asked to find a school that would train our marina workers in  the fine art of painting Yachts. The parent co. is a modest sized  shipyard and has a pretty good handle on the Painting of steel boats  (Navy ships), We need instruction in fiberglass painting, gel- coat/blister repair, Any suggestions would be appreciated?   John|
105|92|2001-05-22 14:46:23|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: To be clear, I'm not arguing against pilothouses|The weight of a pilothouse is largely offset by the increase in  storage for heavy items below the raised pilothouse floor. With a  steel pilothouse the ultimate stability of a boat is greatly enhanced  by the buoyancy of the pilothouse when it begins to submerge in a  knockdown.   The pilothouse on my 31 footer has 2,300 lbs of buoyancy , which is  the equivalent of adding 3,000 lbs of ballast when it is submerged.   The risk of a man overboard situation is greatly reduced by the crew  spending that much more time in the pilothouse and that much less time  on deck. The risk of hypothermia and clouded thinking caused by  exposure to the elements is also greatly reduced.This makes the  pilothouse a major improvement in the safety factor.   A serious offshore cruising boat without a pilothouse may be as  logical as a pickup truck which can only be steered from the open box.   Would you buy such a pickup truck?                                            Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > Pilothouses have lots of benefits. A dry, comfortable  > watch spot is very important. And I see the advantage > of a navstation up where the watch is, rather than  > requiring the watch to duck below in order to navigate  > or update logs. Though you don't want the watch spot > too comfortable, and to tell the truth, in the middle  > of the night, it's nice to have a duty that takes you > below once or twice an hour. You have to move around > a bit on those night watches. >  > I was NOT arguing that pilothouses are bad. I was  > pointing out that pilothouses put weight high, which > is a disadvantage that the designer accepts for their > benefits. |
106|92|2001-05-22 15:41:53|John|Re: To be clear, I'm not arguing against pilothouses|> > I was NOT arguing that pilothouses are bad. I was  > > pointing out that pilothouses put weight high, which > > is a disadvantage that the designer accepts for their > > benefits.   A little grist for the mill. I built a Yawl, many years ago, 40' steel hull w/ an aluminum pilot  house. It took just two men to set it in place. Much lighter than Cor- ten,     John|
107|92|2001-05-22 20:13:53|Alex Christie|aluminum pilot house attachment|Further to John's mention of aluminum pilot houses, I recall reading in a Jay Benford book about a special metal strip  which is made of aluminum on one side, and steel on the other,  explosively bonded together. The strip is used to join the aluminum  pilot house to the steel deck, each metal then welded to their  respective parts. The use of gaskets, bolts, isolating inserts and  such is avoided. If you wanted to go this route, I'd expect it to  cost more, of course.  Brent's wheel-houses don't seem to need it,  but it is a possible option.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   >  > A little grist for the mill. > I built a Yawl, many years ago, 40' steel hull w/ an aluminum pilot  > house. It took just two men to set it in place. Much lighter than   Cor-  > ten,  >  >  >  > John |
108|108|2001-05-23 05:05:44|willyacht@yahoo.com|Steel Masts?|What are the opinions on steel masts?   Has anybody lost a steel mast in heavy weather, or experienced a  severe knockdown?  What are the typical diameters and wall thickness for different size  boats?  Has anyone calculated the inertias for typical off the shelf tube  sizes and compared them to the equivalent aluminium yacht sticks?  Any other info and opinions would be helpfull.   Will|
109|108|2001-05-23 06:19:35|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Steel Masts?|Steel masts have been used on many Swain boats with success. The 40 footer seen in the photograph just uploaded to "A Tongan album" uses a steel mast (something like 53 feet long!). Brent has all the specs on this stuff. I know of two other boats, 36 footers, which used steel masts, and one of them has circumnavigated. Unfortunately I don't have them on board our group yet, as it would be very interesting to hear about their offshore adventures.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: <willyacht@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 2:05 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Masts?   > What are the opinions on steel masts? > > Has anybody lost a steel mast in heavy weather, or experienced a > severe knockdown? > > What are the typical diameters and wall thickness for different size > boats? > > Has anyone calculated the inertias for typical off the shelf tube > sizes and compared them to the equivalent aluminium yacht sticks? > > Any other info and opinions would be helpfull. > > > Will > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
110|108|2001-05-23 06:46:41|Chris Rueckert|Re: Steel Masts?|Apart from common mast-profiles there is a "new" idea under investigation here in Germany. at http://gittermast.beti.de you will find a description of a "Gittermast" which means "lattice tower" in english I think. However, it is constructed in a similar way as traverses in the field of Stage-constructions. Due to its construction it shall be as light as a Al-Mast though being welded of steel. According to the author of this site the disadvantages are only that it cannot be trimmed backwards and its unconventional look.  Chris Rückert|
111|92|2001-05-23 08:34:41|John|Re: aluminum pilot house attachment|The bi-metallic strip is used by the navy to attach alum  superstructure to the steel main deck. Its avail from Pacific  Aerospace and Production supply. It is rather expensive owing to the  explosive bonding process. about $85.00 LF   John      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Further to John's mention of aluminum pilot houses, > I recall reading in a Jay Benford book about a special metal strip  > which is made of aluminum on one side, and steel on the other,  > explosively bonded together. The strip is used to join the aluminum  > pilot house to the steel deck, each metal then welded to their  > respective parts. The use of gaskets, bolts, isolating inserts and  > such is avoided. If you wanted to go this route, I'd expect it to  > cost more, of course.  Brent's wheel-houses don't seem to need it,  > but it is a possible option. >  > Alex Christie > |
112|108|2001-05-23 08:50:33|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Steel Masts?|> at http://gittermast.beti.de you will find a description of   a "Gittermast" which means "lattice tower" in english I think.  Very interesting. It would have the advantage that it could be  tapered if desired. And a home welder could possible build one at  home. However, I suspect that it has very high drag in the wind. From  the standpoint of windward ability, I suspect that some fairing would  pay for itself.  Peter|
113|108|2001-05-23 09:40:59|F.Ake@gmx.de|Re: Steel Masts?|> home. However, I suspect that it has very high drag in the wind.  > the standpoint of windward ability, I suspect that some fairing > would  > pay for itself. >  > Peter   According to the author of the refering site it is  the fact that it  is not faired giving advantages. He arguments, that the resistance towards wind is rather less than  the one from a conventional mast as the tubes are rather small  compared to the gaps in between. He reports that his sails are  staying excellently as even the Front-edge of the sail is not under  coverage of the mast.  Apart from that it might be an advantage that jeers and cables can be  put inside and you can climb up the mast in case you have to  (repairing top-light or getting back a lost jeer).|
114|108|2001-05-23 09:45:50|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Steel Masts?|Very interesting, in the early 70's and late 80's there were a few  boats here in Australia floating around with steel lattice radio  tower masts.  These were very heavy, but now there are new aluminium  lattice mast sections radio and structural that could do the job. My  main interest is to build a mast that can realiably take a roll in  heavy weather. Most mast calculations are for the XX and YY inertias  and very little consideration for the forces of accidents. Some yacht  mast sellers seem to accept the fact that your mast will fall down in  a knockdown. Various structural engineering experts have stated that  its impossible to prevent mast loss in a severe knockdown and roll.   I always remember Bernard Moitessier and his telephone pole masts  surviving extreme conditions.  Having lost 2 masts that were very  well engineered sailing between Australia and South Africa, i am  getting sick of shelving out money for masts, let alone the living  hell it causes sailing under jury rig. I have thought about a  oversize free standing carbon fibre mast and then staying that. But  this cost is high for a one off. Maybe i will find a aerospace left  over laying on a Pacific atoll made of titanium!!   Will    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Chris Rueckert" <F.Ake@g...> wrote: > Apart from common mast-profiles there is a "new" idea under  investigation > here in Germany. > at http://gittermast.beti.de you will find a description of  a "Gittermast" > which means "lattice tower" in english I think. > However, it is constructed in a similar way as traverses in the  field of > Stage-constructions. Due to its construction it shall be as light  as a > Al-Mast though being welded of steel. According to the author of  this site > the disadvantages are only that it cannot be trimmed backwards and  its > unconventional look. >  > Chris Rückert |
115|108|2001-05-23 10:45:52|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Steel Masts?|> He arguments, that the resistance towards wind is rather less than  > the one from a conventional mast as the tubes are rather small  > compared to the gaps in between.    I don't think that I can accept this without experimental evidence.  Most books on sailing aerodynamics show a comparison of two sections  with equal drag: one round, and one foil shaped. The ration is size  is about the same as the ratio between the tubular parts to the  overall mast section of the glittermast. All joints have high drag as  well.   I know that aluminum masts don't always present a good foil section  to the wind, but still.....  Peter|
116|108|2001-05-23 10:48:36|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Steel Masts?|> I have thought about a oversize free standing carbon fibre mast and   then staying that.   How about going with a gaff rig? The mast would be much shorter, and  therefore could be heavier.  Peter|
117|108|2001-05-23 21:02:50|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Steel Masts?|--- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote:  > What are the opinions on steel masts?  >    In a stayed mast, buckling dominates.  This is in turn controlled by  the ratio of density to Young's modulus.  This ratio is actually  slightly higher for steel than aluminum, so theoretically steel is a  better material for stayed masts than aluminum - given the same OD  the wall thickness is 1/3 for the same compression strength.  However  this results in quite thin walls which in turn presents fabrication  problems, vulnerability to corrosion, and possibly local buckling  limits.  Steel is also just generally difficult to deal with because  extruding it is much more difficult.  On the other hand, it doesn't  suffer from HAZ due to welding.  At some size, steel is probably a better choice than aluminum  depending on many other factors.  Just run the numbers for your case  and find out.|
118|92|2001-05-23 21:21:20|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: In response:Brent's reply on 'calculation'of structure and and |Hi Bruce;  Weren't you at the SBYD meeting that Dave showed the 47 MLB full size  self-righting test videos and model tests?  44s, 47s and 52s all self  right through 180 as predicted, and measured forces on the 47 matched  calcs quite well.  There are also self-right CASREPs on 44s and 52s  that show they self-right in practice as well, though it's not fun.   If not, get in touch with me sometime, and maybe I cen get you a  chance to see them, or I can bring them by an SBYD meeting.  Actually though, full 180 degree self righting is probably not  absolutely necessary as the probability of rerighting after capsize  is related to the inverted and upright energy ratio, and the  probalistic energy content of the waves.   It's pretty simple to  figure the probablity of rerighting in a given time.  I think that  the issue is to make sure that inverting doesn't result in serious  damage or flooding, so I'm fond of watertight subdivision.  Chris|
119|77|2001-05-23 21:30:04|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: ABS?|--- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote:  > I read with some interest the posts on ABS construction standards,  > ABS is an obsolete standard for pleasure sailing vessels.  Even in    It was Journal of Ship Research, however, note that the data was  based on yachts that came home for the damage to be measured.  The  steel boat in question had plating deflection in the plastic range,  (from which the loadings were determined) but no penetrating hull  failure.  In my book, this counts as doing its job.  Also note that there are "Guidelines .. Racing Yachts", "... Motor  Pleasure ...", "... High Speed Craft ...", "... Fishing  Vessels..."and "... Small Steel  ..."  Which rules are you thinking of?|
120|77|2001-05-24 07:36:29|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: ABS?|ABS Guide for Building and Classifying racing yachts, 1986. ABS no  longer supports and gives rulings on small sailing yachts. So to me  the standard is obsolete. You knew of all the past problems of ABS  classification, in that the standard was wider than the barn door.  Numerous structural failures all which complied with ABS guidlines.   It was only a handfull of designers who submitted their plans for  full plan approval even then failures occured. So if you think this  is good engineering practice to design yachts to an obsolete standard  so be it, you are qualified in this exact area.  So to me if a case of structural failure occured and was brought in  front of a court, needless to say i would think the designer would  loose. Numerous out of court settlements with Lloyds plan approval  process have set legal precident in this regard. Lawyers 1 designers  0.   Ayway if you designing a steel or aluminium sailing yacht maybe you  can brief us on what current standards  you would use. At the moment  there is a void as far as steel and aluminium vessels are concerned  under 60 feet. I know in past post you have touched on Coast Guard  NVIC guidelines but these are not widely understood and used.   Will         --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote: > > I read with some interest the posts on ABS construction  standards,  > > ABS is an obsolete standard for pleasure sailing vessels.  Even  in  >  > It was Journal of Ship Research, however, note that the data was  > based on yachts that came home for the damage to be measured.  The  > steel boat in question had plating deflection in the plastic range,  > (from which the loadings were determined) but no penetrating hull  > failure. >  > In my book, this counts as doing its job. >  > Also note that there are "Guidelines .. Racing Yachts", "... Motor  > Pleasure ...", "... High Speed Craft ...", "... Fishing  > Vessels..."and "... Small Steel  ..." >  > Which rules are you thinking of? |
121|108|2001-05-24 07:43:50|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Steel Masts?Wylo|Nick on Wylo is a firm  advocate of the GAff rig, it seems to be  gaining popularity. I have also seen some analysis that give the edge  to the Gaff on many points of sail. Problem is breaking habits and  conformity. Shedding weight on the Gaff rig seems to be a problem, i  would not be hesitant to use it if owned a Bristol Channel Cutter.   Will  In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:  > > I have thought about a oversize free standing carbon fibre mast   and   > then staying that.  >  > How about going with a gaff rig? The mast would be much shorter,   and   > therefore could be heavier. >  > Peter |
122|108|2001-05-24 20:27:15|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Steel Masts?Wylo|Most of my 36 footers have been using 5 1/2 inch to 6 inch OD steel  masts with a 1/8th inch wall for many years and have crossed a lot of  ocean with them with no regrets.All  say they'd do the same again.   If you make the mast airtight, corrosion on the inside is impossible  once the oxygen is used up. You could empty your CO2 fire extinguisher  inside before sealing her up, but as no one has had any problem there  , that would be overkill. Sealing the mast also gives it positive  buoyancy when submerged which can add 4700 ft lbs of righting moment  in a knockdown, something people with internal halyards in an  aluminium mast seem to have overlooked.   We've always used round tubing, which is not the ideal shape  structurally, but it costs about $1000 dollars CDN for a fully  detailed mast counting labour and materials.   Round tubing can be squashed into an oval  for a small fee if you  can find a brake with a 20 ft bed. Most large cities have them.   As steel boats with proper metal hatches can be made as watertight  as a pressure cooker, and it's pretty hard to punch a hole in 3/16th  plate in a boat under 50 feet,watertight bulkheads seem rather  pointless, a throwback to wood and fibreglass boat thinking.                                     Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote: > Nick on Wylo is a firm  advocate of the GAff rig, it seems to be  > gaining popularity. I have also seen some analysis that give the  edge  > to the Gaff on many points of sail. Problem is breaking habits and  > conformity. Shedding weight on the Gaff rig seems to be a problem, i  > would not be hesitant to use it if owned a Bristol Channel Cutter. >  >  > Will >  > In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: > > > I have thought about a oversize free standing carbon fibre mast  > and  > > then staying that.  > >  > > How about going with a gaff rig? The mast would be much shorter,  > and  > > therefore could be heavier. > >  > > Peter |
123|108|2001-05-25 10:47:26|John|Re: Steel Masts?Wylo|--- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote:  You could empty your CO2 fire extinguisher  > inside before sealing her up, but as no one has had any problem  there    A two or three volume change w/ Nitrogen rather than co2 would remove  most of the moisture in the tube as well.   John |
124|124|2001-05-25 11:00:47|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Brents book;|I've just received my copy of Brents book and it's a great read, full of advice, information and suggestions for the home builder, plus it answers many of the questions posed on this group. The KISS principle advocated by Brent makes a great deal of sense, especially for the budget minded builder, and for those of you south of the border where your dollar is worth 50% more than ours,I would suggest the minimal cost of the book makes it a must buy.       Cheers,               Richard|
125|77|2001-05-25 14:18:17|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: ABS?|> Ayway if you designing a steel or aluminium sailing yacht maybe you  > can brief us on what current standards  you would use. At the   moment   > there is a void as far as steel and aluminium vessels are concerned  > under 60 feet. I know in past post you have touched on Coast Guard  > NVIC guidelines but these are not widely understood and used. >  >  > Will   I don't think that the 1986 rules are the most recent, but I am  satisfied that, given correct detail design, the last version of ABS  ORC is adequate.  The failures that I have heard of have involved  incorrect detailing, which is not specifically addressed by the  rules.  Inshore vessels should probably use the urrent DnV tentative  rules.  I am also basing this on a first principles analysis of North Pacific  SF/Japan passage of a 40 foot cruising yacht, using real probablistic  weather files and actual motions data that Young, Sircar and Myself  did in 1982 for a AIAA/SNAME paper.  If the craft in question was somewhat faster, the HSC rules are  applicable, either DnV or ABS.  There also was a paper presented at  the most recent CSYS.  It showed measured data for long racing  passages that met ABS/DnV pretty well.  I think that Joubert's pressures are applicable to control of actual  tensile membrane failure, not initial deflection, which is the ABS  failure criteria.  A designer may want to also do such ultimate  strength analyses using Joubert pressures, (this is analogous to post  failure plastic hinge analysis for seismic loads in buildings) but  this is fairly difficult without quite sophisticated tools.   The one CG requirement for metal structure is NVIC 11-80, which is  actually very easy to use, but of limited applicability.|
126|108|2001-05-25 14:23:10|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Steel Masts?Wylo|The standard commercial method is to fill with preservative oil and  drain.  Another commercial technique is foaming them.  Both are used  for skegs, rudders, etc.|
127|77|2001-05-26 04:26:41|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: ABS?|I will accept your arguments CD, i have all the updates to ABS rules  but they still obsolete.  My only point is that ABS as a design standard is obsolete for  sailing yachts. ABS no longer develops standards for sailing yachts  regardless of the material. Be that as it may steel yachts built to  ABS have a good track record, but would it not be prudent for any  designer to update to the latest design rules and standards?    Will    --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: >  > > Ayway if you designing a steel or aluminium sailing yacht maybe  you  > > can brief us on what current standards  you would use. At the  > moment  > > there is a void as far as steel and aluminium vessels are  concerned  > > under 60 feet. I know in past post you have touched on Coast  Guard  > > NVIC guidelines but these are not widely understood and used. > >  > >  > > Will >  > I don't think that the 1986 rules are the most recent, but I am  > satisfied that, given correct detail design, the last version of  ABS  > ORC is adequate.  The failures that I have heard of have involved  > incorrect detailing, which is not specifically addressed by the  > rules.  Inshore vessels should probably use the urrent DnV  tentative  > rules. >  > I am also basing this on a first principles analysis of North  Pacific  > SF/Japan passage of a 40 foot cruising yacht, using real  probablistic  > weather files and actual motions data that Young, Sircar and Myself  > did in 1982 for a AIAA/SNAME paper. >  > If the craft in question was somewhat faster, the HSC rules are  > applicable, either DnV or ABS.  There also was a paper presented at  > the most recent CSYS.  It showed measured data for long racing  > passages that met ABS/DnV pretty well. >  > I think that Joubert's pressures are applicable to control of  actual  > tensile membrane failure, not initial deflection, which is the ABS  > failure criteria.  A designer may want to also do such ultimate  > strength analyses using Joubert pressures, (this is analogous to  post  > failure plastic hinge analysis for seismic loads in buildings) but  > this is fairly difficult without quite sophisticated tools.  >  > The one CG requirement for metal structure is NVIC 11-80, which is  > actually very easy to use, but of limited applicability. |
128|108|2001-05-26 11:39:10|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Steel Masts?Wylo|It would not be hard to get these kind of tubes galvanised or spray  metalised. An expoxy coat over this would ensure long life. Anyway i  will be trying this sometime on one of Brents 36 footers.  Will   --- In origamiboats@y..., "John " <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: >  > You could empty your CO2 fire extinguisher  > > inside before sealing her up, but as no one has had any problem  > there  >  >  > A two or three volume change w/ Nitrogen rather than co2 would  remove  > most of the moisture in the tube as well. >  >  > John |
129|124|2001-05-26 11:48:25|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Brents book;|I agree its a great read, his experience certainly show through.  Comparing Brents book to one well known metal boat author is like  comparing gold nuggets to donkey poo, Brents being the gold Nuggets.  The same rehashed magazine tabloid style material from others with  very little experience becomes boring very quickly. Brent should be  encouraged to expand on his work and fully publish his book. It will  be a hit. I think there is a eager audience out there for that kind  of book.    5 stars Brent..   Will    --- In origamiboats@y..., sunyataspirit@y... wrote: >   >  I've just received my copy of Brents book and it's a great read,  full of advice, information and suggestions for the home builder,  plus it answers many of the questions posed on this group. The KISS  principle advocated by Brent makes a great deal of sense, especially  for the budget minded builder, and for those of you south of the  border where your dollar is worth 50% more than ours,I would suggest  the minimal cost of the book makes it a must buy. >  >      Cheers,  >        >       Richard |
130|77|2001-05-26 13:53:27|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: ABS?|--- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote:  > I will accept your arguments CD, i have all the updates to ABS   rules   > but they still obsolete. >  > My only point is that ABS as a design standard is obsolete for  > sailing yachts. ABS no longer develops standards for sailing yachts  > regardless of the material. Be that as it may steel yachts built to  > ABS have a good track record, but would it not be prudent for any  > designer to update to the latest design rules and standards? >     Until the new ISO standards come out (which is one reason ABS let it  slide) ABS is a good one.  After all, the nature of the ocean and  steel hasn't changed too much in the last couple of years.|
131|131|2001-05-26 20:51:52|Paul Liebenberg|Brent Swain 36 for sale.|          Hi Everyone,                       I am selling my swain  36 hull. It is nearing completion of the steelwork and will be ready for foaming  and painting this summer. The hull was pulled together by Evan Shaler, Detailing  by Brent. I'll post some pictures in the files section, but for furthur  details, contact me at zelda@... or  250-923-9122|
132|132|2001-05-26 20:58:15|Zelda@island.net|Re: boat for sale|Pictures of my hull for sale are already in the files section. Paul|
133|131|2001-05-26 22:24:31|Scott Yanke|Re: Brent Swain 36 for sale.|          how much, and where is it located?     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Paul Liebenberg       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:37  PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36    for sale.      Hi Everyone,                           I am selling my swain    36 hull. It is nearing completion of the steelwork and will be ready for    foaming and painting this summer. The hull was pulled together by Evan Shaler,    Detailing by Brent. I'll post some pictures in the files section, but for    furthur details, contact me at zelda@... or    250-923-9122To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@...To    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
134|131|2001-05-26 22:51:04|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Brent Swain 36 for sale.|          I am located in Campbell River, on Vancouver  Island. I am asking $30,000 and will take all offers  seriously.     Paul     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Scott Yanke     <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:21  PM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain    36 for sale.      how much, and where is it located?        ----- Original Message -----      <b>From:</b>      Paul Liebenberg           <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:37      PM     <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36      for sale.          Hi Everyone,                               I am selling my      swain 36 hull. It is nearing completion of the steelwork and will be ready      for foaming and painting this summer. The hull was pulled together by Evan      Shaler, Detailing by Brent. I'll post some pictures in the files      section, but for furthur details, contact me at zelda@... or      250-923-9122To Post a message, send it      to:   origamiboats@...To Unsubscribe, send a blank      message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... Your use      of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.      To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@...To    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@... Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
135|132|2001-05-27 04:27:07|Alex Christie|Images of Paul's boat|For convenience, I have moved the listing for images of Paul's boat  to the top of the files list to make it easier for interested parties  to find.  Alex  (moderator)   --- In origamiboats@y..., Zelda@i... wrote: > Pictures of my hull for sale are already in the files section. Paul |
136|136|2001-05-27 04:41:42|Alex Christie|40 foot Swain "MISHAR" in South Pacific|The first 40 foot Swain, which I have since learned is called MISHAR,  is currently at sea in the South Pacific. I have found out that we  can track her and Mike's current movements as she makes her way  through the South Pacific, eventually heading home to BC. She has  just left Aitukaki enroute to Penryn. Go to the site,  http://www.bitwrangler.com/yotreps and look up Mishar's name and call  number (KD7 MLW) and you can find her reported positions, speed,  current weather and sea state. Other vessels are listed too. Pretty  cool. I'll use this site to track her right back to BC, then I'll be  waiting on the dock when she arrives so I can get some more  pictures...and maybe a ride!  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
137|131|2001-05-27 12:05:31|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Questions about Swain 36 for sale.|Looking at the photo's, it looks like you have done a very nice job of  building the boat so far. I have a couple questions that I guess I  just have to ask. In earlier posts it has been suggested that these  boats should cost a total of about $35,000 Can. to build. At this  point it is not clear how much you have completed besides the hull,  but how much money would you estimate would be required to complete  the boat from this point? If a whole boat is supposed to cost $35K why  are you asking so much for your hull (or is there more than a hull  here)?  It has been suggested that these boats should take as little 5 to 6  weeks to complete to the point that they are ready to sail. How long  have you been working on your boat and how much time do you think it  should take to finish her?  And lastly, Why are you selling at this point in the project?   Respectfully Jeff      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...> wrote: > I am located in Campbell River, on Vancouver Island. I am asking  $30,000 and will take all offers seriously.     Paul >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Scott Yanke  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:21 PM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36 for sale. >  >  >   how much, and where is it located? >     ----- Original Message -----  >     From: Paul Liebenberg  >     To: origamiboats@y...  >     Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 7:37 PM >     Subject: [origamiboats] Brent Swain 36 for sale. >  >  >     Hi Everyone,  >                         I am selling my swain 36 hull. It is nearing  completion of the steelwork and will be ready for foaming and painting  this summer. The hull was pulled together by Evan Shaler, Detailing by  Brent. I'll post some pictures in the files section, but for furthur  details, contact me at zelda@i... or 250-923-9122 >  >  >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@e... >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@e...  >  >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >                >                     www.    >               >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@e... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@e...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. |
138|131|2001-05-27 12:53:35|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Questions about Swain 36 for sale.|          Hi Jeff,               I'd rather negotiate price on an individual basis, but  judging from your previous posts about steel boats I suspect that you are not a  not a potential buyer.  I am selling because the boat does not meet my  needs. I need/want a bigger boat. It is a nice fair hull and I have no  reservations whatsoever about the construction method. My next boat  will hopefully be of the folded steel variety. I am asking $30,000 because that is what I estimate  has been put into the boat. Anyone who buys the boat at this point will get a  nice hull and save a lot of time. If anyone is interested, give me a call or stop by  and see me, I'm in Campbell  River.                  Paul Liebenberg         |
139|131|2001-05-27 16:34:23|svbanshee@yahoo.com|Re: Jeff's Questions about Swain 36 for sale.|Jeff forgot to add that he has a boat (Laser 28) for sale as well.  It's made of fibreglass...  Tasha   --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > Looking at the photo's, it looks like you have done a very nice job  of  > building the boat so far. I have a couple questions that I guess I  > just have to ask. In earlier posts it has been suggested that these  > boats should cost a total of about $35,000 Can. to build. At this  > point it is not clear how much you have completed besides the hull,  > but how much money would you estimate would be required to complete  > the boat from this point? If a whole boat is supposed to cost $35K  why  > are you asking so much for your hull (or is there more than a hull  > here)? >  > It has been suggested that these boats should take as little 5 to 6  > weeks to complete to the point that they are ready to sail. How  long  > have you been working on your boat and how much time do you think  it  > should take to finish her? >  > And lastly, Why are you selling at this point in the project?  >  > Respectfully > Jeff >  > |
140|131|2001-05-27 17:08:45|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Actually the boat that I have for sale is not fiberglass...|I am selling a Laser 28 but these boats are not actually fiberglass,  at least not during the period that my boat was built. My boat  actually is Kevlar with vinylester resin. The Laser 28's were the  first production boats built using two part vacuum molds and Kevlar.  Both are a bit more popular today.  Jeff     --- In origamiboats@y..., svbanshee@y... wrote: > Jeff forgot to add that he has a boat (Laser 28) for sale as well.  > It's made of fibreglass... >  > Tasha >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > > Looking at the photo's, it looks like you have done a very nice  job  > of  > > building the boat so far. I have a couple questions that I guess I  > > just have to ask. In earlier posts it has been suggested that  these  > > boats should cost a total of about $35,000 Can. to build. At this  > > point it is not clear how much you have completed besides the  hull,  > > but how much money would you estimate would be required to  complete  > > the boat from this point? If a whole boat is supposed to cost $35K  > why  > > are you asking so much for your hull (or is there more than a hull  > > here)? > >  > > It has been suggested that these boats should take as little 5 to  6  > > weeks to complete to the point that they are ready to sail. How  > long  > > have you been working on your boat and how much time do you think  > it  > > should take to finish her? > >  > > And lastly, Why are you selling at this point in the project?  > >  > > Respectfully > > Jeff > >  > > |
141|131|2001-05-27 17:19:38|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Questions about Swain 36 for sale.|You are correct that I am not a potential buyer.I am actually in the  middle of a deal on similar sized boat. The reason that I askec  the question is more for general knowledge for myself and for  others who read this board. As I see it, this is a board that is  visited by people who are interested in home building boats and it  sounds as if some of them are considering building folded steel  designs. If someone is considering building a boat it is helpful to  hear information from someone who is actually going through, or has  actually been through the process of purchasing the materials and  doing the work. I think that your experience and observations would be  helpful. I though some kind of estimate of you overall time and costs  for such a project would help others evaluate whether this makes sense  of them and to some extent would allow a potential buyer to get some  sense of what is involved in finishing the job you started. While I am  not a fan of steel, (it is probably the last material, except for  ferricement, that I would consider for a boat under about 45 feet) I  am still very interested in the construction process for any material.  My questions were not meant in any kind of negative way. I was just  seeking a little more knowledge from someone who has actually 'been  there'on a steel boat.  Regards Jeff    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...> wrote: > Hi Jeff,  >             I'd rather negotiate price on an individual basis, but  judging from your previous posts about steel boats I suspect that you  are not a not a potential buyer.  > I am selling because the boat does not meet my needs. I need/want a  bigger boat. It is a nice fair hull and I have no reservations  whatsoever about the construction method. My next boat will hopefully  be of the folded steel variety. > I am asking $30,000 because that is what I estimate has been put  into the boat. Anyone who buys the boat at this point will get a nice  hull and save a lot of time. > If anyone is interested, give me a call or stop by and see me, I'm  in Campbell River.                 Paul Liebenberg |
142|22|2001-05-27 18:02:39|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello,  This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats  group.    File        : /Kerrera -- a Swain 36/kerrera2.jpg    Uploaded by : ravencoast@...    Description : Kerrera on the hard   You can access this file at the URL  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Kerrera%20--%20a%20Swain%2036/kerrera2.jpg   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit  http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files  Regards,  ravencoast@...|
143|143|2001-05-27 21:15:10|Alex & Kim Christie|Two other Swain 36 completed yachts for sale|                                   Dear group,               With thanks to Richard Wilford, here are two        adverts for 36 foot Swain yachts, one in BC ($74,000 Canadian), the other        in Scotland (approx. $110,000 Canadian).               I nabbed all the photos of these vessels off their        respective websites for our files                <b>Kobella - 36 foot Swain (fin keel) for sale in Maple        Bay, BC <br></b>http://www.maplebaymarine.com/Kobello/kobella.htm                       <b>Kerrera - a Swain 36 (fin keel) for        sale in Scotland, U.K.<br></b>  http://www.hcs.dial.pipex.com/kerrera.html                       Alex Christie               (moderator)|
144|144|2001-05-27 21:15:20|Alex & Kim Christie|Hull materials. There is no Ultimate|          Re: Jeff's questions on Swain 36: I know your  question was meant in a neutral way, Jeff, but perhaps your previous posts  against steel as a hull-building material set you up. It might have been  something to be expected, considering this is a steel-boatbuilding  forum(!). That said, thank you for clearing the air by indicating that your  interest was genuine and in the spirit of enquiry that this group is meant to  promote.    Most on this forum accept that a yacht can be built  successfully of steel, hence their interest in being here. The forum attempts to  distribute and share information about building steel yachts, in this case using  the origami methods.   Tasha, whom I know personally, knows too, that  fibreglass boats come in all shapes and scantlings, and additionally have  circumnavigated successfully, including polar passages. I think she was havin' a  bit o' fun here, cuz I know she still sails an Albin Vega (fibreglass, and the  type has circumnavigated!). She's a devilish card, that one, and I am going to  enjoy having fun at her expense next time I see her on the water or in the pub  [where are you anyway, Tasha?].    Sorry Tasha, its my job as moderator to set the  record straight -- you can't hide! ;-)  (to be fair, I believe Tasha is contemplating  building a new liveaboard in steel using Brent's methods)   As we all know, it is possible to  build <em>excellent </em>boats from a wide variety of different materials,  and that includes wood (my training is in traditional wooden boatbuilding, with  some composite work), steel, fibreglass, aluminum, plywood, reeds, beer-kegs (a  catamaran was built using these in Japan), and even Ferrocement. It is <em>how  </em>the chosen material is used, rather than solely the material itself, which  determines whether the boat is "good" or not.  I simply do not think there  is any "ultimate" material out there (that is in the realm of affordability for  us non-royals here in the colonies) for boatbuilding. Some materials excel at  certain things, but rate poorly in other areas, and that is just the way it  is. Every material has its detractions for various reasons -- mostly because the  caustic and energetic marine environment exacts a high price upon our beloved  creations. It is a matter of working around the limitations with proper  engineering and forethought, as well as utilizing the constant feed-back  available through true-experience. If we work with the nature of the material,  then we can build a good boat.    We can debate the relative merits and detractions  of various materials, but it would be a foolhardy proposition to state one  material the "ultimate", though we proceed to do so anyway!   Brent must be acknowledged for the fact that he has  always tried to improve his boats by using feedback from his own experiences,  and that of owners. It is for this reason that his guidebook has some really  unique solutions to problems in steel boatbuilding that most designers never pay  attention to. One of the examples is his solution to the scupper-drain-stain  seen on the hull-sides of many yachts (not just steel ones). We've all seen  those ugly stains on the sides of boats, but he's found a simple way around it.  Builders can ignore his advice, but they do so at their own risk.   As an aside to Ferro cement, I don't plan to build  a boat of this material in the near future, but I am not going to slam it,  though I used to. Go slam the builders (and some designers) who ignore  current knowledge on how to properly use the material for the greatest benefit.  Anyone with a modicum of knowledge in engineering knows that just about any  material, including ferro, can be engineered to make an excellent boat.  Engineering departments at universities make great sport of requiring their  students to accomplish unbelievable tasks with common materials. Put "concrete  canoe" in any search engine and have a read -- it is quite interesting (they are  lighter than you think, yet still fulfill strength requirements).    Jay Benford spent some time working out proper  scantlings for some of his designs to be done alternately in ferro (cutter  Mercedes). That is what the challenge of engineering is all about, and what a  wonderful challenge it is [insert stirring music here]. Someone could say, "I  want to build a boat using dried banana peels, corn-husks, baler-twine, and  epoxy"; the marine engineer will work out a way to make it happen, and it will  likely work, maybe at considerable expense, but you never know...);  if it  didn't work, then usually the <em>engineering </em>is at fault, <em>not </em>the  material (yes there are limits to what material can be used, like building a  boat out of, say, water, nitrogen, or other such  things).     Anecdote: There is a fine ferrocement cutter in  Victoria, originally built in Holland to Lloyd's specifications and a  gold-plater finish. I thought it was glass until the owner informed me  otherwise. I know, it is only one winner among many flops, but it still tells us  to open our minds to this fact:  you just can't judge a boat by its  material alone.   My later grandfather, a professional forester at  UBC in Vancouver, worked at devising boats made of paper. <em>His  </em>detractors must have thought him half-mad. If only he could have lived to  see the wonders of composite boats that his paper boat idea was in some way a  precursor to!   Alex Christie   (moderator)     ----- Original Message -----  From: <burr.halpern@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 2:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Questions about Swain  36 for sale. > You are correct that I am not a  potential buyer.I am actually in the  > middle of a deal on similar sized   boat. The reason that I askec  > the question is more for general   knowledge for myself and for  > others who read this board. As I see it,   this is a board that is  > visited by people who are interested in home   building boats and it  > sounds as if some of them are considering   building folded steel  > designs. If someone is considering building a   boat it is helpful to  > hear information from someone who is actually   going through, or has  > actually been through the process of purchasing   the materials and  > doing the work. I think that your experience and   observations would be  > helpful. I though some kind of estimate of you   overall time and costs  > for such a project would help others evaluate   whether this makes sense  > of them and to some extent would allow a   potential buyer to get some  > sense of what is involved in finishing the   job you started. While I am  > not a fan of steel, (it is probably the   last material, except for  > ferricement, that I would consider for a boat   under about 45 feet) I  > am still very interested in the construction   process for any material.  > My questions were not meant in any kind of   negative way. I was just  > seeking a little more knowledge from someone   who has actually 'been  > there'on a steel boat.> >   Regards > Jeff>  |
145|145|2001-05-27 21:15:27|Alex & Kim Christie|Determining costs for hull building|           Costs of building: It certainly must be hard to  quantify how much goes into a home-built craft, when building in any material,  because it is so dependent on the individual boatbuilder, their resources, and  what resources are available to be had for building the vessel (and at what  price). This is likely what drives varying numbers reported for hull  construction. Ultimately you do what you have to do in order to get the  thing built. Time spent on labour has value, and so should be added to the  cost of the boat if you are selling it partially built.    Brent's boats lend themselves particularly well to  the scrounger because they use materials which can be found in non-marine  product environments (scrap yards).  Other boat designs may benefit from  this as well, but to a lesser degree. Epoxy, for example is not usually found  cheap, nor is clear boat lumber, but there are other items which can be  scrounged for these types of boats too.   Expressed genuine interest in what time and costs  are involved in building a hull has some merit here, and may help people plan  out their time and finances before engaging the project. It would be interesting  to break down the yacht-building process into stages and collate data for time  and money spent, and post this as a chart. I'll keep my ears open on this when I  talk to builders in the future. I'll create a folder in the files at some point,  and others can add to it as they go, should they wish.   Alex Christie   (moderator)  |
146|131|2001-05-28 09:24:24|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Questions about Swain 36?/Economics|Regardless of what material Jeff likes or dislikes. We need to dig  deeper into our emotional reasons why we do what we do. The arguments  for and against steel have been settled have been done over a million  times. Advocates of each think they have the battle won. Now back to  the emotion....  Simply put most dreamers and can do types simply dont have the money  to engage a NA to design or even purchase a hull advocated by Jeff  fullstop. I cant even recall when  i last saw one of these hitech  hulls in  Reunion, Capetown, Chrismas Islands,  or wherever your  favourite remote cruising ground is.  Yet i see plenty  boats with  people who only have the basic means to deliver their dreams. I  always marvel that they have been on the water for years and some are  on  third and fourth circumnavigations. Hey whats all that noise, its  six in the morning, head out of the hatch, JeeeeeSUS what the hell  its a hitech aircraft carrier French hull with maybe 12 crew. MMMMMM  formalities out of they way, Oh you only staying one day "we in a  hurry because the owner has to be back in France to run his dot com  business and is only on this one leg". This is the typical routine  for these high pressure types with their hitech boats, and surely  this is not the lifestyle or cruising style that most who build boats  or scrape and save dream about. To most the boat is an means to an  end, and so long as it meets the basic survival criteria it will do.  By enlarge metal boats feature heavy in this thinking. Just like the  vast majority drive everyday automobiles, only a minority of archair  warriors dream about Porsches knowing full well they will never use  it to its full capability or can hardly afford it, and is beyond the  role of basic transportation. If you are one of these dreamers you  will never get away, because your funds will be totally exhausted,  with cost overruns, and technical developements on the fly taking  this hitech approach. When the hull cracks are you going to fly the  builder and his crew out to Del Fuego to advise whether you should  continue in your boat or charter the Antinov to fly your hull home  for repairs? With due respect to Jeff, you only have to be in Aukland  one or twice to see the reality of this situation, the quotes of $30K  seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring  incidents. The owners dont care, they fly home while the hull dries  out. Something the designers of these laminates have not addressed  regardless of kevlar or dyneema. This kind of disaster would destroy  most peoples cruising plans, so steel under these circumstance makes  logical sense. Its wrong of coarse for Jeff, this is just part of the  game of hitech, you gotta have pain for gain Jeff?? Even if it is  wrong on the Silicon Graphics workstation and finite element analysis  version 23, steel users dont give a damm, something some people  refuse to acknowledge.   What i largely see is a low tech fleet of slow(relatively) heavy  plastic, steel and ferro.  Simply most cant afford the "ideal" boat,  and even if they could afford it could not spare the time for long  term cruising.  I see time and time again the Techno Wizard boats on  the milk run from San Diego finnishing in Aukland, and low and behold  they fly home and get the crew to deliver the boat home. Not what  most long term cruisers are thinking about, the horizon will always  be there for them. Another fact is simply that the vast majority of  yachts go nowhere, the more hitech the boat is the faster you will  sail and probably you more likely to go nowhere. Very few of these  boats are really thought out well let alone be designed by somebody  who has actually cruised.  This assumes most who build metal boats  want to cruise. Most others will be stuck in the marina with the  owners on the bar stool, saying see my miracle 99 overthere its built  out of fritanium fudge and its the best thing since sliced bread, i  bought it for cruising but my wife hates boats and prefers her  friends at the country club or the Newport Yacht club. It seems only  the affluent have the money to buy these boats, so presumably they  wont have the time to cruise.  It seems the vast majority of the hitech fleet fall into this  category and simply have a arrogant diposition and  laugh at people  who happily cruise for years on 32 foot boats or anything that did  not cost a million. Considering that a hitech trailer sailor will  cost more than most steel boats, one wonders how logical it can be  that small hitech uncapable boat costs more than the average steel do  anything cruiser.   My personal view is that those hitech junkies they have long lost  the will to dream or be captured by romantic ideals. Unfortunately  carbon fibre and fudgy cores dont figure in this the romantic lines  of many cruisers dreams.  I think most people who have practical  common sense will look at steel or old heavy plastic, those that cant  afford the classic plastic opt for building and most times its steel.  Its totally wrong to call these people fools and shoot them down with  unproven techno babble. Because simply at the end of the day  anecdotal evidence is in their favour. Its amazing occurence if some  el cheapo Beneteau  which a kid can stick a screwdrive through does a  circumnavigation, yet the numerous steel hulls from 26 and up rarely  get a mention. It always amuses me that in the usa where most boats  are plastic and the huge media bias against anything economical and  under 40 feet i see sometimes more small cruisers and steel cruisers  in most ports. Someone is certainly missing the boat. The bias  towards  production plastic boats and 44 foot plus is clearly  evident. Yet outside this unreality the evidence is exactly  opposite.  So one really has to wonderS who is fooling who. I am  sorry to say Jeff your reasoning is not part of common cruising  folklore and dreams, you need to work on some romantic cruising story  books featuring hitech, or start the Asmovian boat group where  members can determine if its shorter too Tahiti through a black  carbon fibre hole or whether the dynamics of H2O surface tension will  get your there without fixing or finding wormholes in the laminate.  SO what i am saying is that its nice being modern and technically  aware, but the boat hull is only about 1% of the total pie, and to  simply focus on the material when 99 other elements have to be  considered is wrong. If building in steel saves you money, time  and  does the job  who really cares about those other things. Just like  most of us in our daily lives know the space program is good for us  long term, we dont contemplate that the space shuttle tiles will be  on our keel in the future. We roof our houses in clay and use lead in  our keels. The sad fact is that regardless of how good these  materials are, there are only probably less than 5 builders in the  world who can do the kind of boats the Jeff advocates.   Since this group is about people interested in building these kind  of simple egalitarian boats, i thought i would focus on these ideals,  and strengths of the philosophy of the designers and the people who  dare to dream and dont play the consumer orientated childish snobbery  games of life.The final comments is that there more web pages on  steel boats and cruising than hitech laminates and hitech boats, that  should tell you something.  Will        --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > You are correct that I am not a potential buyer.I am actually in  the  > middle of a deal on similar sized boat. The reason that I askec  > the question is more for general knowledge for myself and for  > others who read this board. As I see it, this is a board that is  > visited by people who are interested in home building boats and it  > sounds as if some of them are considering building folded steel  > designs. If someone is considering building a boat it is helpful to  > hear information from someone who is actually going through, or has  > actually been through the process of purchasing the materials and  > doing the work. I think that your experience and observations would  be  > helpful. I though some kind of estimate of you overall time and  costs  > for such a project would help others evaluate whether this makes  sense  > of them and to some extent would allow a potential buyer to get  some  > sense of what is involved in finishing the job you started. While I  am  > not a fan of steel, (it is probably the last material, except for  > ferricement, that I would consider for a boat under about 45 feet)  I  > am still very interested in the construction process for any  material.  > My questions were not meant in any kind of negative way. I was just  > seeking a little more knowledge from someone who has actually 'been  > there'on a steel boat. >  > Regards > Jeff >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...> wrote: > > Hi Jeff,  > >             I'd rather negotiate price on an individual basis,  but  > judging from your previous posts about steel boats I suspect that  you  > are not a not a potential buyer.  > > I am selling because the boat does not meet my needs. I need/want  a  > bigger boat. It is a nice fair hull and I have no reservations  > whatsoever about the construction method. My next boat will  hopefully  > be of the folded steel variety. > > I am asking $30,000 because that is what I estimate has been put  > into the boat. Anyone who buys the boat at this point will get a  nice  > hull and save a lot of time. > > If anyone is interested, give me a call or stop by and see me,  I'm  > in Campbell River.                 Paul Liebenberg |
147|145|2001-05-28 09:38:09|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Determining costs for hull building|I dont think metal is hard to quantify, its actually the best  material to produce a cost and a time line.  The most unfortunate  thing about steel is that you charged for waste. But using the  scrounging approach waste might be a minor consideration, since you  will beg borrow or steal to fit!! Steel is a commodity that is very  competitive and you really got to have unusual reasons for cost  increases. My experience has been that most times i have been spot on  in terms of hull structure, but been way off in the "unusual areas"  like rudder bearing, plastics, stainless, and other hitech materials  and paints etc, these products just seem to increase every few  months. The rig and engine can be also be spot on. What is the  hardest and is always way off is the boats interior. Sometimes i  marvel at how quick and cheap the hull is on the excel spreadsheet,  then just freak and say why is everything not made out of steel.  Thats why my boat is aluminium, since i had the philosophy of welding  in everything i could. I could blow up a cow in my boat and hose it  down. Thats only something you can achieve in metal. Unfortunately no  can do in steel because of weight. I will be watching with interest  to see a Aluminium Swain Hull, because the potential for wash and  wear is great.  Will   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Costs of building: It certainly must be hard to quantify how much   goes into a home-built craft, when building in any material, because  it is so dependent on the individual boatbuilder, their resources,  and what resources are available to be had for building the vessel  (and at what price). This is likely what drives varying numbers  reported for hull construction. Ultimately you do what you have to do  in order to get the thing built. Time spent on labour has value, and  so should be added to the cost of the boat if you are selling it  partially built.   >   > Brent's boats lend themselves particularly well to the scrounger   because they use materials which can be found in non-marine product  environments (scrap yards).  Other boat designs may benefit from this  as well, but to a lesser degree. Epoxy, for example is not usually  found cheap, nor is clear boat lumber, but there are other items  which can be scrounged for these types of boats too.  >  > Expressed genuine interest in what time and costs are involved in   building a hull has some merit here, and may help people plan out  their time and finances before engaging the project. It would be  interesting to break down the yacht-building process into stages and  collate data for time and money spent, and post this as a chart. I'll  keep my ears open on this when I talk to builders in the future. I'll  create a folder in the files at some point, and others can add to it  as they go, should they wish.  >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) |
148|148|2001-05-28 11:52:15|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Aluminum Swain|Hi Will, Great post on economics and home built/finished boats. There is an aluminum Swain hull under construction here in Nanaimo and when Alex has a chance to get down here hopefully he'll be able to get some pictures.         Cheers, Richard|
150|150|2001-05-30 14:33:39|winslow59@yahoo.com|Any experience with or opinions about CCBB|Has anyone here had a hull/deck built by Confidence Custom Boat  Building (CCBB)? Quality of work? Cost?   If not -- any opinions?  http://www.boatbuilding.ws|
151|151|2001-05-30 17:06:47|sunyataspirit@yahoo.com|Re.CCBB|I don't know much about them but their website seems to indicate some measure of experience. One item of note is that from what I have heard , and this is hearsay, they don't pay a residual to Brent for each boat built from his plans; whereas it is generally a condition of sale that only one boat may be built from a set of plans from a designer. If this is correct then I feel there may be a somewhat dubious lack of ethics at play here which may have the potential to extend itself to the construction process.       Their prices seem somewhat high, no doubt due to the fact that there is overhead and a work crew to pay for. When a hull is pulled together by Brent, or Evan Schaler the overhead is minimal as they work on their own. I believe that having the hull built by either of the afore mentioned is very cost adventageous and the quality of work well known.          Just my personal thoughts.          Richard|
152|150|2001-05-30 18:37:05|neilhuget@cs.com|Re: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB|I assume you've seen Confidence's web site... Without the usual series of frames I'd be concerned about hull strength and  that both sides were symmetrical.  It's quick to build, but we aren't talking  about a toy boat in a puddle here.  Plus, the used Brent Swain boats I've  seen for sale on the net are selling pretty cheap and I'm wondering why when  they aren't very old and the interior seems as nicely done as much more  expensive steel boats.|
153|150|2001-05-30 19:37:18|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Any experience with or opinions about CCBB|Most of my boats sell for many times what their owners have invested  in them .A well progammed product of the consumer society judges the  value of everything by the price tag attatched, making him a sitting  duck for a typical used car salesman.Most experienced offshore  cruisers are more inclined to use their own logic rather than simply  respond to such programming.   Most people who have built and cruised extensively in my boats  wouldn't even consider building anything else.Winston Bushnell sailed  his first brentboat around the pacific , first to Hawaii, then through  the Marshals, Carolines, Japan, Aeutians and back to BC. He sold her  to build one of my  26 footers to sail through the NW passage.After  that trip  he sold that boat to build another 36 to do the circle  pacific trip again, his third brentboat. Before this he had done a  circumnavigation.His daughter is now building one of my 26 footers.   Mike Ward is returning from New Zealand in his second brentboat and  talking about building a third for a non stop circumnavigation.   Jack Carson, having completed a circumnavigation on one of my 36 ft  twinkeelers is on his second brentboat.   The structural strength of my boats have been well proven in high  speed collisions with everything from steel barges to icebergs to log  booms to pounding on coral reefs, to 16 days pounding on a leeshore on  the west coast of the Baja in 12 foot surf, to being dropped up to 15  feet to a single season passage through the northwest passage to  several circumnavigations , all without transverse frames , and all  without major structural dammage. I know of few other designs with  such a proven track record .                                               Measureing the distance between the hull -deck joint and the  centreline, I've found  my boats symetrical to within 1/16th of an  inch , much better than most of the production fibreglass boats in  existence.   When something has been so well proven over a period of twenty years  and over 100 boats, saying it won't work is about as intelligent as   telling a returning astronaut as he's stepping out of the space  shuttle " The world is flat, you know"   If you hit a framed boat with a sledge hammer , the closer you hit  it to a frame , the easier it is to dammage it. Transverse frames have  proven time and time again to be  a structural liability, not an  asset.It's much easier to punch a hole in a boat next to a transverse  frame than in the middle of a plate.                                            Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., neilhuget@c... wrote: > I assume you've seen Confidence's web site... > Without the usual series of frames I'd be concerned about hull  strength and  > that both sides were symmetrical.  It's quick to build, but we  aren't talking  > about a toy boat in a puddle here.  Plus, the used Brent Swain boats  I've  > seen for sale on the net are selling pretty cheap and I'm wondering  why when  > they aren't very old and the interior seems as nicely done as much  more  > expensive steel boats. |
154|154|2001-05-30 23:27:25|Norm Facey|Steel masts vs stability|          <em><font size="2">    There's been recent exchange on steel  masts, with some discussion on their positive stability effects if sealed  (though this does mean that you're already far enough over to submerge the  mast.....). I've seen other comments upon the earlier negatice  stability effects of the extra weight aloft  -  have the steel mast  proponents looked at that? </font></em> <em><font size="2"></font></em>  <em><font size="2">                 Norm Facey</font></em>|
155|155|2001-05-31 01:25:18|Alex & Kim Christie|Re.CCBB royalties issue|According to what Brent told me not long ago, the royalties issue has been resolved and relations are currently on the level with Confidence Boatbuilding.  Alex Christie  (moderator)    >    I don't know much about them but their website seems to indicate some  measure of experience. One item of note is that from what I have heard , and this is hearsay, they don't pay a residual to Brent for each boat built from his plans; whereas it is generally a condition of sale that only one boat may be built from a set of plans from a designer. If this is correct then I feel there may be a somewhat dubious lack of ethics at play here which may have the potential to extend itself to the construction process.  >       Their prices seem somewhat high, no doubt due to the fact that there  is overhead and a work crew to pay for. When a hull is pulled together by Brent, or Evan Schaler the overhead is minimal as they work on their own. I believe that having the hull built by either of the afore mentioned is very cost adventageous and the quality of work well known.  > >        Just my personal thoughts. > >         Richard > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@...  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
156|154|2001-05-31 06:00:55|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Steel masts vs stability|All Weight above the waterline will affect stability. You boat needs  a reasonable static stability figure in the first place before you  will start to have a huge impact. Many of the protagnists in the  stability debate seem to ignore totally the fact that most cruising  boats will be overloaded with excess weight, roller furlers, radar  towers etc. This overloading has a huge impact generally on a boat  with an initially low figure. Studies have shown that a typical  cruiser once equipped with a roller furling and other odds and sodds  will have as much as 15 degrees less positive static stability.   Getting back to the question, yes it does have a impact on stability  only if its poor in the first place. Secondly if the boat has a good  high range initially the positive range can increase by as much as  fifteen degrees using a sealed mast. This positive effect can negate  all the heavy overloading if you do get knocked down. Thirdly a boat  with a heavy mast will increase a boats resistance to capsize, over  the same boat with a lighter mast. A heavy taller object increases  the boats roll inertia.  Start off with a good design, good static stability and the effects  of sealed mast and heavy roll inertia will come onto play making the  boat seaworthy. But if you a go fast junkie you will want to tow the  line and install a fried pretzel.  Will   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> wrote: >     There's been recent exchange on steel masts, with some  discussion on their positive stability effects if sealed (though this  does mean that you're already far enough over to submerge the  mast.....). I've seen other comments upon the earlier negatice  stability effects of the extra weight aloft  -  have the steel mast  proponents looked at that?  >  >                 Norm Facey |
157|154|2001-05-31 07:39:33|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles|Actually, this business of using a steel mast has struck me as pretty  strange as well. While it is true that carrying a sealed spar will  help with inverted stability, the weight of that spar carried high up  in the boat means that you are more likely to get that spar in the  water. It is especially a problem in a boat that already carries a  high center of gravity (due to such heavy items as a steel deck and  topsides, chain anchor rodes carried on deck, moderately high cabin  structure constructed in steel, etc,) Further exacerbating this issue  is the fact that the boats are shoal draft, and use widely splayed  bilge keels (resulting in the leeward keel remaining to leeward of the  center of buoyancy until the boat reaches a reasonably high angle of  heel (Eyeballed at 50-60 degrees) and the depth of the hull which  lowers the center of gravity; all of that on a narrow wall-sided Hull,  Unless the laws of physics has been suspended and I had not noticed, a  high VCG in relationship to the center of gravity results in a boat  that rolls though wider roll angles and is more prone to heeling. This  high heel angle was confirmed in Brent's comments on his use of a wide  splay angle on the bilge keels. Modern boats purposefully designed for  offshore work, with the current trend in very low center of gravities,  are designed to sail at heel angles less than 20 degrees with 10-15  degrees being more optimal. Bilge keels as shown on Armelle appear to  be at an angle optomized for this more vertical sailing angle.   There are a number of elements to a stability curve for any boat that  are critical to a long range cruiser. The first is discussed a lot  around here. That would be the range of positive stability which Brent  estimates at a very high angle. The second is the magnitude of the  positive stability at normal heel angles (In other words the amount of  force that is required to heel a boat when it is within its normal  sailing angles.) It is here that I really question the idea of doing  anything (especially as extreme as using a steel mast or carrying a  chain anchor rode on deck) that raises the center of gravity on the  boat.   As Will points out, a heavier or taller spar has a greater roll moment  of inertia. This means a couple things, the boat will roll at a slower  rate, but it will store more kinetic energy and so will be prone to  rolling through a wider roll angle. This higher roll moment might  reduce the likelihood of a knockdown due to excitation (rolling in  situation where the frequency of the waves are at the same natural  frequency of the boat) but in a situation where a boat is being rolled  by a breaking wave, the more common and dangerous form of a boat being  rolled over due to wave action, the inertia of the high center of  gravity will carry the boat further through its roll and make it more  likely that the boat will get its mast tip in the water. This is  a critical element to the likelihood of a rollover because when a boat  takes a major knock down it begins to slide to leeward on its topsides  (its keel is no longer at an angle to the water to generate much  lateral force) and so dipping a mast tip means that driving the mast  and sails through the water which of course will greatly increase  overturning force. (Been there, done that, got the teeshirt- Lucky to  be here to tell the story)  The affect on wide roll angles and large heel angles is that the boat  is more prone to taking a major knockdown and the boat is also going  to be harder on its crew. During the post Fastnet Studies the key  issue cited over and over again, regarding the cause of sheer number  of major knock downs, was high center of gravities relative to the  center of buoyancy on the boats of that era. It is one of the key  faults cited in Marchaj's seminal (but slightly dated) book on  'Seaworthiness'.    While I know I am about to hear about the half dozen of these boats  that have made major passages and circumnavigations, I still say, that  proves nothing. Hunter Marine used to have a list of over a 100  circumnavigations performed in their boats and they have a guy who  just finshed his second circum-navigation previously in a Hunter 37  and this time in a Hunter Passage 42. Supposedly he is about to order  another Hunter. None of us would look at a Hunter (except perhaps the  HC50) as a boat designed for offshore work.   Respectfully Jeff|
158|154|2001-05-31 09:00:35|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles|--- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote:  > Actually, this business of using a steel mast has struck me as   pretty strange as well.   A couple of comments on different aspects of your post:  1) I thought that it was pretty clear from context that steel masts  were only under consideration when the overall weight was similar to  the weight of an aluminum mast.  2) The post-Fastnet analysis also concluded that the very light masts  of ocean racers contributed to a low roll moment of intertia, and  that boats with heavier masts were less likely to be rolled by a  breaking sea.  3) Consideration of each bilge keel indiviually leads to error. To  get a correct view, they must be consdered together. A little trig  exercise will reveal that the projected area (plan view) of two bilge  keels remains the same at all angles of heel: As the windward one  becomes less effective, the leeward one becomes more so. With well- splayed keels, the windward keel will come out of the water earlier,  causing an enourmous increase in righting moment.  4) The range of performance among heavy displacement sailing vessels  of the same size is comparitively small, especially off the wind.  5) Note on B. Swains's earlier post: I think it is a legitimate point  of view that the only reason to use frames in any construction is to  be able to use thinner planking. Once the decision is made to use  planking (plating in this case) heavy enough to stand, there is every  reason to dispense with frames. If construction accuracy is a  problem, then temporary forms can be used.  Peter|
159|159|2001-05-31 13:58:35|Alex Christie|construction photos|Dear Group,  I have posted the URL for the complete construction sequence of the  bare hull of Gene's Swain 36, into the groups's "bookmarks" section.  The URL is http://members3.clubphoto.com/gene232990/Boat_Pix_2/  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
160|160|2001-05-31 17:17:06|Alex & Kim Christie|Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby|          Here is an interesting thing to  ponder:   The following shows work done by Sail Tech yachts  in Burnaby. I immediately recognized the photo of the first sailboat on the page  as a Brent Swain hull, even though they indicate it as their own design on the  web-page. Close examination of the bow roller shows it to be made exactly to  Brent's plans as well. A phone call to Gunter at Sail Tech confirmed that the  boat indeed is one of Brent's (I hope they paid him), but they have not since  credited Brent as designer on their site.  It is a 36, not a 39 as they  claim. I do not know why they would say this.   http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/konesky/sailtech.htm   Sail-Tech home page:   http://www.sailtechintl.com/s/Home.asp   Their 47 footer is listed at $750,000.      Although they are making good use of the ease and  speed of the technique, and promote it as such, but it does not appear that they  are passing the savings on to the customer....   It is a little ironic that they purport to be the  originators of the technique, but I also note that they are selling stocks in  their company, so are trying to create a strong public image for potential  investors. Unfortunately knowing what I do about them, it has the opposite  effect on me, and I would be highly reluctant to invest in a company that is not  entirely honest. They should give credit where credit is due.   My feelings are that they are putting out a good  product, but are not entirely up-front about the origins of their design  principle, but it is encouraging to see that the technique is being  accepted.   It is, furthermore, a tip of the hat to Brent from  naval architect Grahame Shannon has seen fit to convert his Amazon 47 design to  Brent's technique for Sail Tech so that it can be built more easily, yet not  suffer loss of performance.    Alex Christie   (moderator)|
161|159|2001-05-31 17:34:29|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: construction photos|In tests published in Cruising World, a model which would be rolled  through 360 degrees by a given sized wave ,without a mast, would only  be rolled 40 degrees with a mast in ,by the same size wave. By the  time the mast is set in motion, the wave has passed, unless the mast  is extremely light. This , it has been suggested ,is probably why  boats  often get rolled over the second time after losing their mast  in the first rollover, a good reason for building the strongest  possible mast.( ie steel)      Boats sailing alongside one another with a much heavier 6 5/8th  inch OD mast don't seem to sail at a noticably greater angle of heel  than sisterships with a 5 1/2 inch OD mast, perhaps because only 20%  of the heeling pressure is from the weight of the rig, and 80% is from  the pressure on the sails.    Twin keels , being shallower have much less of a tripping effect on  the hull than a deeper keel. Their centre of lateral resistance is  much higher, as they are much higher up the deadrise.Thus the whole  hull is much more prone to get knocked sideways by a wave than it is  to be tripped and capsized .   Another weight saving consideration is the ability to weld tangs  and other fittings directly to a steel mast with 100% strength, making  them much simpler and thus saving weight in the proccess.The 100%  strength is also a plus.Making the welds longer than the cross section  of the tangs improves this guarantee.   A 6 inch OD steel tube has roughly the same weight as a solid 6 inch  diameter fir solid mast and roughly the same weight as a 5 1/2" by 8"  box section with 1 1/4 inch walls, a common size for 36 footers a few  years back. Tangs and fittings for a wooden mast would be much  heavier, as they would be more complex.    I was skeptical when my clients first began using steel masts, but  they have been highly successful, and those who have used them say  they would use nothing else.                                            Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > Dear Group, >  > I have posted the URL for the complete construction sequence of the  > bare hull of Gene's Swain 36, into the groups's "bookmarks" section. >  > The URL is http://members3.clubphoto.com/gene232990/Boat_Pix_2/ >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) |
162|160|2001-05-31 17:43:55|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby|The boat in the picture looks like the one Ken Splett built for  Fastwater Marine when they were in Richmond. If it is, I was paid for  it. It was sold to Ian Leckie who is finishing it in Calgary.            Gunter bought a set of drawings for the 36 and Ken scaled them up to  39 ft and Beneteau-ized the stern and pilothouse.He also increased the  depth of the keels.I didn't have drawings for the 40 at the time.   The 47 looks like one he built at Shelter Island in Richmond.He ran  into serious distortion problems when he melted lead into the keels, a  practise which works well for steel, but a disaster in aluminium.    Building a mould for custom shaped ingots is a better idea. Ken  recently built a couple of origami aluminium 53 footers where he built  a steel mould for the ballast, melted it full of lead, then dropped  the works into the aluminium keel and welded an aluminium airtight cap  over it . That worked well.                                    Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Here is an interesting thing to ponder: >  > The following shows work done by Sail Tech yachts in Burnaby. I   immediately recognized the photo of the first sailboat on the page as  a Brent Swain hull, even though they indicate it as their own design  on the web-page. Close examination of the bow roller shows it to be  made exactly to Brent's plans as well. A phone call to Gunter at Sail  Tech confirmed that the boat indeed is one of Brent's (I hope they  paid him), but they have not since credited Brent as designer on their  site.  It is a 36, not a 39 as they claim. I do not know why they  would say this.  >  > http://www.interchg.ubc.ca/konesky/sailtech.htm >  > Sail-Tech home page: >  > http://www.sailtechintl.com/s/Home.asp >  > Their 47 footer is listed at $750,000.   >  > Although they are making good use of the ease and speed of the   technique, and promote it as such, but it does not appear that they  are passing the savings on to the customer....  >  > It is a little ironic that they purport to be the originators of the   technique, but I also note that they are selling stocks in their  company, so are trying to create a strong public image for potential  investors. Unfortunately knowing what I do about them, it has the  opposite effect on me, and I would be highly reluctant to invest in a  company that is not entirely honest. They should give credit where  credit is due.  >  > My feelings are that they are putting out a good product, but are   not entirely up-front about the origins of their design principle, but  it is encouraging to see that the technique is being accepted.  >  > It is, furthermore, a tip of the hat to Brent from naval architect   Grahame Shannon has seen fit to convert his Amazon 47 design to  Brent's technique for Sail Tech so that it can be built more easily,  yet not suffer loss of performance.   >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) |
163|154|2001-05-31 21:20:26|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles|--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:  > --- In origamiboats@y..., burr.halpern@a... wrote: > > Actually, this business of using a steel mast has struck me as  > pretty strange as well.  >  > A couple of comments on different aspects of your post: >  > 1) I thought that it was pretty clear from context that steel masts  > were only under consideration when the overall weight was similar to  > the weight of an aluminum mast.   Reply: I would agree that the moment of inertia and performance of a  steel mast would be the same as an aluminum mast of equal weight,  BUT, if the two masts were of equal weight then either the aluminum  weight mast will be way stronger than would be required for the loads  involved or the steel mast would be very undersized for the loads.   In other words, A60 steel is three times heavier for a given cross  section than Aluminum, but only 1.5 times stronger than aluminum. (Of  course the equation gets worse if A36 steel (common cold rolled  structural steel) is used.) Beyond that, given the long panel lengths  and the typical combination of bending and axial loads found in a  typcial rig, the sectional properties will often govern such that in  reality a steel mast may end up being over twice as heavy as an equal  strength aluminum mast.      > 2) The post-Fastnet analysis also concluded that the very light   masts   > of ocean racers contributed to a low roll moment of intertia, and  > that boats with heavier masts were less likely to be rolled by a  > breaking sea.   Reply: Actually the studies after the Fastnet disaster concluded that  a high roll moment of inertia was beneficial in the single 'rogue  wave' circumstance. While it is true that a heavy spar is one way to  increase roll moment of inertia, increasing the moment of  inertia by raising the center of gravity carries a stiff penalty with  it. A better solution from the standpoint of comfort a sea, as well as  stability, and safety is using a bulb keel which increases the moment  of inertia and also lowers the center of gravity at the same time.   This lower center of gravity permits more sail to be carried  comfortably which provides a benefit in both light air and heavy.   >  > 3) Consideration of each bilge keel indiviually leads to error. To  > get a correct view, they must be consdered together. A little trig  > exercise will reveal that the projected area (plan view) of two   bilge   > keels remains the same at all angles of heel: As the windward one  > becomes less effective, the leeward one becomes more so. With well- > splayed keels, the windward keel will come out of the water earlier,  > causing an enourmous increase in righting moment.   Reply: Actually you are right here. Assuming that you had two boats  with the same weight and same center of gravity, it does not matter  whether the keels have a wide or narrow splay angle. That said, the  apparent weight of a bilge keel clearing the water will go up by 64 or  so pounds per cubic foot so because it no longer has the buoyancy of  the water helping to float it.   >  > 4) The range of performance among heavy displacement sailing vessels  > of the same size is comparitively small, especially off the wind.   Reply: I really think that this one is dead wrong. I can perhaps  illustrate this with an example. First lets talk about two boats of  the same exact weight. One has a heavy hull, deck, rig and a very  heavy interior. It is traditional in appearance with comparatively  long ends. It has a low aspect ratio keel with a lot of surface area  and uses a low density ballast which because of its bulk is carried  comparatively high relative to its center of buoyancy and results in a  keel with a lot of camber.   Now, compare that to a boat with a light hull, deck and interior. Its  equal weight comes from larger tankage and storage carried low in the  boat, much of this weight below the water line. It has a long water  line which permits finer sections and a shallower canoe body. This  permits a longer span on the keel and permits less wetted surface for  the same amount of lift. This boat uses a hollow keel foil as one of  its water tanks and has a high density bulb keel of equal weight to  the ballast in the first boat. This boat would have a substanially  lower center of gravity and could carry a taller and more powerful  rig, and more over could carry more sail in a building breeze. It  would also roll through a smaller angle and at a slower roll rate.   So, I would think that the second boat would be faster on all points  of sail but especially so on a reach where its longer waterline length  makes a real difference in hull speed and its lower drag would really  have an effect since the boat would spend more time at or near  hullspeed.   Probably the most graghic example that I am aware of is the case of a  Brewer 12.8 and a Whitby 42 coming up the Atlantic two years ago. The  Brewer uses the same hull as the Whitby but the Brewer has cored decks  and topsides. Both boats weigh the same but the weight savings on  the Brewer from the coring is used for additional ballast. The  Whitby has a full keel while the Brewer has a cut away forefoot and  cutaway behind the keel and in front of the skeg hung rudder reducing  wetted surface and permitting a more efficient foil shape. The greater  stability from the heavier keel allows the Brewer to carry a cutter  rig while the Whitby's are a ketch. Coming up the Atlantic a few years  back, both boats left Miami at the same time but the Brewer made it to  Beaufort in under 5 days compared to the Whitby's over 6 days and the  Brewer has substanially fewer engine hours.   I know that this is too small a sample to be a terribly scientific  representation but you can easily visualize that boats of equal weight  will not have equal comfort, speed, or seakeeping depending on how  the hulls are modeled, the weight is distributed, and the keel and rig  employed.  >  > 5) Note on B. Swains's earlier post: I think it is a legitimate   point   > of view that the only reason to use frames in any construction is to  > be able to use thinner planking. Once the decision is made to use  > planking (plating in this case) heavy enough to stand, there is   every   > reason to dispense with frames. If construction accuracy is a  > problem, then temporary forms can be used. >   Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse frames  that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames play an  important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those that  would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being  drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment that in  the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge  area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to the  skin.|
164|154|2001-06-01 09:17:47|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles|Comment (not rebuttal):   > Reply: Actually the studies after the Fastnet disaster concluded   that a high roll moment of inertia was beneficial in the  single 'rogue wave' circumstance.  Yes, they were talking about a single wave. I think that 'breaking  crest' is probably a better term than 'rogue wave.' It seems to me  that many rogue waves are blamed for too many accidents, and seems to  imply that the accident was due to bad luck. The 'rogue' was just a  wave that caught them wrong.   > Reply: I really think that this one is dead wrong. I can perhaps  > illustrate this with an example. First lets talk about two boats of  > the same exact weight.   I concede the point, but I have to say that in describing the two  boats you have exagerated their dissimularity. By making them the  same weight but different waterlines, you have given them different  length/disp ratios, while I was thinking of equality.  Peter|
165|165|2001-06-01 12:27:50|Alex & Kim Christie|loads on keel striking bottom|Jeff wrote:  > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse frames > that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames play an > important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those that > would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being > drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment that in > the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge > area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to the > skin.   On Brent's boats, I think the high deadrise of the hull bottom midships would adequately handle the load imparted form an impact on the bottom of the fin keel. It is very difficult to push in the point of a triangle, and the hull bottom has similar geometry, with the keel essentially put on to the point of a shallow triangle. Brent explained it quite well to me yesterday, and maybe he'll step in and give a better illustration/explanation than I have here.  From what I saw on Paul Liebenberg's boat, the twin keel version has substantial transverse webs running across the tops of each keel to spread the lateral and perpendicular point loads imparted to the skin.  It would be of interest to see what Grahame Shannon did in his Swain-style version of the Amazon 47 in aluminum. The hull midships looks to be more of a shallow arch, and there surely must be some sort of web in there to take up loads, or else it may be vulnerable to the problems Jeff expressed concern about. The 47 foot hull on the Sail Tech website www.sailtechintl.com shows a fin keel.  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
166|165|2001-06-02 16:27:13|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: loads on keel striking bottom|One of my boats spent 16 days punding on a lee shore in 12 foot surf  before being dragged through the surf, being picked up and dropped 12  feet every wave for 1/4 mile, with no serious dammage.   Another 36 hit the reef leaving Suva and pounded 300 feet accross  the coral reef before being dragged back accross the reef by a  tug ,to deep water. The only dammage was a crack in the wood mast and  a small dent in the keel. Both were single keels.    My twin keeler hit a rock at 5 knots with both keels.The boat went  from 5 knots to zero , instantly ,and I went through the open hatch.  One of the trailing edges of the keels was driven in a couple of  inches and had to be jacked down with a hydraulic jack. I've since  welded a floor across the webs to triangulate the webs ,which will  completely prevent this in the future.  On new boats, I triangulate the centreline by making the entire  centreline into a tank, with the back of the tank where the trailing  edge of the keels meet the hull.I've done this with Paul's boat too.  This would make it impossible to drive the keels up into the hull. It  also makes use of a hard to use space, and , with a 12 by 24 inch  inspection plate and a plexiglass window , makes it easy to access  and inspect or work on the tank at any time.     On the issue of knockdowns, one of the things which have proven to  reduce the likelyhood of a knockdown is an increase in inertia(  Weight ) of the vessel. Perhaps Jeff would have had less of a  knockdown if he'd been in a heavier boat.How did your hatches fare ?  did they keep the water out as a metal hatch would have ? Did you  suffer any structural dammage?   Even in a light boat, Metal ( aluminium)  is the best hatch  material available. It can even make a boat very difficult for  thieves to get into, unless the windows are too large.                                             Brent Swain  --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  >  >  > Jeff wrote: > > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse   frames  > > that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames   play an  > > important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those   that  > > would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat being > > drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment   that in  > > the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the bilge > > area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to   the  > > skin. >  > On Brent's boats, I think the high deadrise of the hull bottom   midships  > would adequately handle the load imparted form an impact on the   bottom of  > the fin keel. It is very difficult to push in the point of a   triangle, and  > the hull bottom has similar geometry, with the keel essentially put   on to  > the point of a shallow triangle. Brent explained it quite well to me > yesterday, and maybe he'll step in and give a better > illustration/explanation than I have here. >  > From what I saw on Paul Liebenberg's boat, the twin keel version has > substantial transverse webs running across the tops of each keel to   spread  > the lateral and perpendicular point loads imparted to the skin. >  > It would be of interest to see what Grahame Shannon did in his   Swain-style  > version of the Amazon 47 in aluminum. The hull midships looks to be   more of  > a shallow arch, and there surely must be some sort of web in there   to take  > up loads, or else it may be vulnerable to the problems Jeff   expressed  > concern about. The 47 foot hull on the Sail Tech website > www.sailtechintl.com shows a fin keel. >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) |
167|167|2001-06-02 17:46:17|Gary H. Lucas|36' Building pictures|I took a look at the pictures of the guy building the 36' boat, and the site where they are building in aluminum using the origami method.  The pictures of the guy building the 36' boat was real eye opener.  It looked like he pulled off the side of the road in a clearing where some pieces of logs were available and started building this boat!    So much for a level site, an accurate jig for holding all the frames,  heavy equipment for handling plates etc. that one would think are basic requirements!  Yet the results look very good, and very fast.  The company using the Origami method to build aluminum boats looks like they have taken Brent's concept a little farther, by developing software to calculate the shapes of the sheets and produce CNC files to do the cutting. Is Brent able to develop different hull shapes using equations or a CAD system, or is the shape of the panels derived empirically?  I am in the process of refurbishing an old Catalina 22.  As I do this and read about Origami boats I keep thinking, for the man hours I have in an old boat that will still be an old boat when I am done I could build a new one! I have all the skills, Machining both manual and CNC, Welding with Mig, Tig, or Stick on most metals,  Cad design of machinery, Control panel wiring, Rigging and Millwrighting.  Now all I have to do is convince myself to do it.  Gary H. Lucas|
168|168|2001-06-03 00:07:06|Alex & Kim Christie|New folder uploaded to Origamiboats|          A folder of Winston Bushnell's Dove III has been  uploaded to the files section for your interest. This is the Swain 26  (Centreboard and stub keel) boat which transited the Northwest Passage from west  to east.   Images are from the boat listed at www.harbouryachtsales.com   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
169|169|2001-06-03 09:40:33|Gary H. Lucas|Question about Origami method|Brent, I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a hull.  It seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is bent. That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a compound bend.  Is this correct?   Assuming this is correct, does this imply that one could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its length and find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints are?  I am trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final shape looks like.  I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino, a 3D surface program.  If I could then the program can generate hull volume, center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting to play with.  Gary H. Lucas|
170|169|2001-06-03 10:08:40|turpin@yahoo.com|What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote:  > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point,  > it's not a compound bend.  Is this correct? ..   A topologically flat surface stays topologically flat (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch the  material. That's mathematics. As to the practice,  Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the  cutting and bending used to build origami boats  stretches the steel.)   > I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in  > Rhino, a 3D surface program. ..   I played with early versions of Rhino, and found it  fairly complex. Are the later versions more intuitive? Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface  between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you  can model an origami hull shape by drawing the sheer, the midline, and the joint, and then this tool should fill in the hull. What would be more interesting is  if it includes the means then to go backwards,  unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing how it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! Then you could model all sorts of things, and unroll them to get the cuts.  Russell|
171|169|2001-06-03 11:39:49|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Question about Origami method|Hi Gary, and welcome to the group.  There may be a delay in Brent answering your question, as he has to get to a public terminal, so hang in there for a day, and a response will be forthcoming. At least 100 of his boats have been built, a good portion by him; I'm sure he'll have a good answer for you!  I found that making the model from the pattern as printed in his guidebook was an eye-opener for me.  Because the paper is also a sheet material, it seems to act more or less in the same way as the steel would (though I guess paper is not ductile).  There is software from europe which is not for boats specifically, but could be applied in such a manner. It is an "unwrapping" program that allows you to take any object and unwrap it into a flat surface. I believe it has been employed to design packaging such as cardboard boxes, but it could be applied to many other things too. I'll see if I can dig up the name of that software. I don't  know, being unfamiliar with programs, but maybe this is something that can be done as part of CAD already?  It sounds like with all your metal working skills you've got the "right stuff". You'd be a shoe-in for this kind of boatbiulding.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Question about Origami method   > Brent, > I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a hull. It > seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is bent. > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a compound > bend.  Is this correct?   Assuming this is correct, does this imply that one > could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its length and > find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints are?  I am > trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final shape looks > like.  I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino, a 3D > surface program.  If I could then the program can generate hull volume, > center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting to play > with. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
172|165|2001-06-03 14:15:02|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: loads on keel striking bottom|This is begining to make a lot more sense. Originally, these boats  were described as "frameless" and I reacted rather negatively since  from an engineering stand point you need a lot more than 3/16 plate  on an over 10,000 lb vessel to achieve adequate strength without  any frames. As this discussion has been progressing it has been  pointed out that these boats are not really frameless. They have  longitudinal framing and the have transverse floor framing in the  area of the keel. These are beginning to sound like a normally framed  light steel boat. Add a couple knees or transverse frames at the  shrouds, stem, and backstay and a strong back at the keel and engine  beds and you have a normally framed small steel boat.   We can all tell our tales of being on a boats that hit hard and  survived. My own 28 footer (which I would best describe as a very  light weight, but well engineered, coastal cruiser/racer) struck  bottom at just under 8 knots and while some of the energy was  dissipated by the boat jumping vertically, the keel had absorbed the  energy of slowing a boat by 6-7 knots. When we hauled out for the  season we found virtually no damage except a slight mushrooming of the  lead keel tip which we beat back with a metal workers hammer and  refaired. Of course, the impact load in stopping a 4100 lb boat is a  very small fraction of the impact in stopping a stopping a heavy  weight cruiser.    Brent  suggested that "Perhaps Jeff would have had less of a knockdown  if he'd been in a heavier boat." and asked "How did your hatches fare?  Did they keep the water out as a metal hatch would have ? Did  you suffer any structural dammage?" To answer Brent's question, while  I have been through a lot of knock downs in small day racers, the  knock down in question actually did occur on a heavy cruisng boat.  We might have actually faired better in a lighter boat with a  higher righting moment and lower center of gravity. With the light  boats that I have knocked down on, there is a point at which the boat  actually slides sidewards on its topsides.   The boat that I was refering to in my post and that Brent was  asking about was a heavy cruiser with a very heavy aluminum spar. That  boat was rolled to an angle well past 90 degrees, and far enough to  get the mast tip in the water. The forward hatch was in the water and  sustained a fair amount of pressure as the boat bottomed out in the  trough of the waves. There was no damage to the hatches that I could  tell and the forward hatches did not take water. The main companionway  hatch, (a fiberglass sliding hatch with teak hatch slides) was not in  the water as best as I can speculate (its not where my eyes were  focused) and it did not take green water nor was it damaged. Once the  mast tip was in the water our sidewards motion seemed to slow and the  boat jerked over what I would estimate to be probably an additional  15-20 degrees as we hit the trough and the mast drove into the back  of the next wave. I was left hanging from the boom vang with my legs  clear of the deck. On that boat we suffered some sail damage, some  gear like winch handles going over the side, and a bent stanchion.  There may have been more damage but at this point in time I can't  recall anything else specifically. Several of the crew were pretty  banged up by flying gear or being tossed during the last piece of the  snap roll.   On my own boat, I experienced the phenomina of taking a knock down and  sliding on our topsides in winds over 65 knots (A nearby boat pegged  their anemometer at 65kts. We under a double reefed mainsail and were  not flying a jib.  My boat knocked down to what I have always  estimated as approximately 60 to 70 degrees of heel. At that angle of  heel the boat was sliding sidewards on her topsides. The waterline was  about even with the inside of the coamings and the cabin sides were in  the water. There were occasional rooster tails off of the winches on  the cabin top. The forward hatch and companionway were not in the  water (in fact the companionway did not have the top slide in place  but we took no solid water down below). The spreaders were not in the  water but were quite close at different points in the wave train. When  I was able to get to the mainsheet (which was underwater) and release  it, the boat stood up enough (probably to 30 degrees of heel so that  the keel and rudder were in the water and I could feather up and  steer. From that point on we were able to maintain something less than  a 30 degree heel angle by a combination of sail trim and steering  corrections. This was by no means easy. Obviously, had this storm  lasted more than a half hour at these windspeeds (it dropeed pretty  quickly into the 20's), it would have worn out our crew of two to the  point of being dangerous. Then again this was on a 4100 lb 28 footer  that was not really intended for that kind of high wind conditions. In  terms of damage, we lost the upper batten out of the mainsail but  otherwise the boat was none the worse for wear. We were the only boat  around us that was able to beat clear of the River mouth and several  large cruising boats were beached when they could not make to weather  (or put their bow through the wind) against the conditions.   In that same storm a 30,000 lb, 44 foot heavy cruiser (that we had  been cruising with) took a knock down to what we estimate to be pretty  much the same angle of heel (60-70 degrees) as we sustained but they  were under bare poles. The only damage that I recall is that she had  minor damage to her soft dodger.   Jeff      --- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: > One of my boats spent 16 days punding on a lee shore in 12 foot surf  > before being dragged through the surf, being picked up and dropped  12  > feet every wave for 1/4 mile, with no serious dammage. >   Another 36 hit the reef leaving Suva and pounded 300 feet accross  > the coral reef before being dragged back accross the reef by a  > tug ,to deep water. The only dammage was a crack in the wood mast  and  > a small dent in the keel. Both were single keels. >    My twin keeler hit a rock at 5 knots with both keels.The boat  went  > from 5 knots to zero , instantly ,and I went through the open hatch.  > One of the trailing edges of the keels was driven in a couple of  > inches and had to be jacked down with a hydraulic jack. I've since  > welded a floor across the webs to triangulate the webs ,which will  > completely prevent this in the future. >  On new boats, I triangulate the centreline by making the entire  > centreline into a tank, with the back of the tank where the trailing  > edge of the keels meet the hull.I've done this with Paul's boat too.  > This would make it impossible to drive the keels up into the hull.  It  > also makes use of a hard to use space, and , with a 12 by 24 inch  > inspection plate and a plexiglass window , makes it easy to access  > and inspect or work on the tank at any time. >  >    On the issue of knockdowns, one of the things which have proven  to  > reduce the likelyhood of a knockdown is an increase in inertia(  > Weight ) of the vessel. Perhaps Jeff would have had less of a  > knockdown if he'd been in a heavier boat.How did your hatches fare ?  > did they keep the water out as a metal hatch would have ? Did you  > suffer any structural dammage? >   Even in a light boat, Metal ( aluminium)  is the best hatch  > material available. It can even make a boat very difficult for  > thieves to get into, unless the windows are too large. >                                             Brent Swain >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  > wrote: > >  > >  > > Jeff wrote: > > > Reply: While I understand Brent's prejudice against transverse  > frames > > > that touch the plating, I still believe that transverse frames  > play an > > > important role in distributing large lateral loads such as those  > that > > > would be encountered when the keel strikes bottom in a boat  being > > > drive ashore beam to. There is a very localized bending moment  > that in > > > the absense of floor framing (transverse frames through the  bilge > > > area is imparting an enormous concentrated load perpendicular to  > the > > > skin. > >  > > On Brent's boats, I think the high deadrise of the hull bottom  > midships > > would adequately handle the load imparted form an impact on the  > bottom of > > the fin keel. It is very difficult to push in the point of a  > triangle, and > > the hull bottom has similar geometry, with the keel essentially  put  > on to > > the point of a shallow triangle. Brent explained it quite well to  me > > yesterday, and maybe he'll step in and give a better > > illustration/explanation than I have here. > >  > > From what I saw on Paul Liebenberg's boat, the twin keel version  has > > substantial transverse webs running across the tops of each keel  to  > spread > > the lateral and perpendicular point loads imparted to the skin. > >  > > It would be of interest to see what Grahame Shannon did in his  > Swain-style > > version of the Amazon 47 in aluminum. The hull midships looks to  be  > more of > > a shallow arch, and there surely must be some sort of web in there  > to take > > up loads, or else it may be vulnerable to the problems Jeff  > expressed > > concern about. The 47 foot hull on the Sail Tech website > > www.sailtechintl.com shows a fin keel. > >  > > Alex Christie > >  > > (moderator) |
173|169|2001-06-03 15:49:45|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?|> A topologically flat surface stays topologically flat > (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch the  > material. That's mathematics. As to the practice,  > Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the  > cutting and bending used to build origami boats  > stretches the steel.)   Because steel, like most materials, is stronger in compression than  in tension, a sheet of steel will not always bend into the  theoretical ruled surface. The designer Weston Farmer described using  this phenomenon to get a more nearly round-bilged hull for his  Taihitana design.   I repeat here only what I have read; I have no independent or  engineering knowledge this phenomenon.  Peter|
174|169|2001-06-03 16:05:30|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Question about Origami method|While it is posible to form steel into compound curves (look at  most any automobile) the tools required are beyond those available to  most amatuer boat builders. Most steel boats are built with conic  sections (sections that can be derived from a cone shaped object) with  the panels curved into developable shapes. You are correct in assuming  that at any point in the hull (except the chine)you should be able  find an orientation at which a straight edge would lie flat against  the hull. Obviously these lines of orientation are neither vertical or  horizontal.   Jeff      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a  hull.  It > seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is  bent. > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a  compound > bend.  Is this correct?   Assuming this is correct, does this imply  that one > could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its  length and > find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints  are?  I am > trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final  shape looks > like.  I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino,  a 3D > surface program.  If I could then the program can generate hull  volume, > center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting  to play > with. >  > Gary H. Lucas |
175|169|2001-06-03 17:01:28|turpin@yahoo.com|Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|--- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote:  > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface  > between two single-dimensioned curves? ..   Thinking about this, a few minutes after I posted, I  realized that the topologically flat sweep between two  curves is not unique. In most cases, there is an  infinite number of simply-curved surfaces that can be fit. If you're still following this, with the image of a line segment sweeping along both boundaries, the  variation depends on the relative speed its end points move along them.  It's no longer obvious to me how a CAD program would let you model the folded shape, beyond specifying the flat cut-out, and letting you identify the joints  that are glued together.  Russell|
176|176|2001-06-04 01:33:38|Alex & Kim Christie|tortured plywood, origami-style solo canoe|          Just found this site from Duckworks magazine, which  has a link for a tortured plywood solo canoe. The patterning is sort of similar  to the Brent Swain style for the steel boats, except that in this case the  "tabs" or tongues which are pulled together are in the top strake zone, whereas  on Brent's boats they are on the bottom.  For a small punt, it would be  easy enough to get the sides fair. On a 36 or 40 foot boat, it'd be better to  leave the top panel unbroken in order to achieve easy fairness.   Brent's aluminum dinghy design, shown in the files  section, uses the tabs on the bottom, like  his larger boats.   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
177|177|2001-06-04 01:37:32|Alex & Kim Christie|...and here is that site (oops)|          to err is human...   Here is, at last, the URL for the folded ply solo  canoe:   http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/swampyankee/index.htm   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
178|169|2001-06-04 11:01:10|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|> Thinking about this, a few minutes after I posted, I  > realized that the topologically flat sweep between two  > curves is not unique.    More thought may be required, because Mother Nature is imposing more  restrictions than you are considering. It is not enough that the  surface of the sheet have non-crossing straight lines from one curve  to the other, but that any two points must be the same distance  apart  (measured along the surface) on the bent sheet as on the flat  sheet. With this added restriction, there will be, in general, no  surfaces that meet the criteria. For particular curves, there will be  one surface.  This answers the question of how software unwraps the surface: by  dividing the surface into small triangles, then laying the triangles  out on the flat.  Peter|
179|169|2001-06-04 13:54:12|turpin@yahoo.com|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:  > More thought may be required, because Mother Nature is  > imposing more restrictions than you are considering. It  > is not enough that the surface of the sheet have  > non-crossing straight lines from one curve to the other,  > but that any two points must be the same distance  > apart  (measured along the surface) on the bent sheet  > as on the flat sheet. ..   IF the modeled surface has no compound curves THEN it can be unfolded (unrolled) onto a flat sheet isometrically, i.e., in a fashion that preserves distance. This may require  a cut (think of a cone). And in some cases, the unfolding may result in overlap that can't come from a single sheet of steel.   > With this added restriction, there will be, in general,  > no surfaces that meet the criteria. ..   I think you're wrong here. Or misunderstanding the idea. Remember: the modeled surface is topologically flat, by  virtue of being swept out by a line.  Russell|
180|169|2001-06-04 14:47:17|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|> I think you're wrong here. Or misunderstanding the idea. > Remember: the modeled surface is topologically flat, by  > virtue of being swept out by a line.   It is possible to create a compound curve by sweeping with a line. In  fact, it is possible to create a saddle point surface (concave down  on the x-axis, concave up on the y-axis) with a ruled surface.  PHV|
181|169|2001-06-04 15:28:05|turpin@yahoo.com|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:  > It is possible to create a compound curve by sweeping  > with a line. ..   This raises the question: What do you mean by "sweep"?  Take any smooth 2d surface. If there is a part of the  surface where you can lay a straight edge so that the  edge contacts the surface for an interval, then the  surface is simply curved at the points along that  interval. Or to put it another way, if you put a  straight edge against the surface at any point of  compound curvature, positive or negative, it will  meet the surface *only* at that point.  The way I was using "sweep," the modeled surface is  a set of straight line segments, each between two  points on the boundary.   Russell|
182|169|2001-06-04 16:49:46|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|> The way I was using "sweep," the modeled surface is  > a set of straight line segments, each between two  > points on the boundary.    Here is a web page with drawings of a number of "ruled surfaces,"  including a saddle point (Example 1)  http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs3621/LAB/surface/ruled.html  Example 3 shows a shape made by sweeping a straight line between two  circles. A steel sheet can not be bent into this shape. Example 4  shows a shape made by sweeping a line between two arches, on inverted  from the other.  The curves do not have to be this different for the shape to become  non-developed. For example, if a chine line becomes straight near the  bow and the deck line is very full, the shape will probably be hard  or impossible to build with sheet material.  Peter|
183|169|2001-06-04 17:31:19|turpin@yahoo.com|Re: Double doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|You're right. I need to rethink my reasoning.  Russell|
184|169|2001-06-04 18:38:00|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|Actually, I think that you are discribing what in math terms is called  a 'hyperbolic paraboloid'. A hyperbolic paraboloid does not produce a  compound curved surface but is a developable surface, again made up of  conic sections and which can be described by a series of straight  lines. As such, a hyperbolic paraboloid can be produced in sheet metal  and is the basis of any boat fabricated from dimensionally stable  sheet materials with the possible exception of "tortured plywood"  which is the precurser to almost all folded or 'origami' type  construction techniques.   Jeff     --- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote: >  > > I think you're wrong here. Or misunderstanding the idea. > > Remember: the modeled surface is topologically flat, by  > > virtue of being swept out by a line. >  > It is possible to create a compound curve by sweeping with a line.  In  > fact, it is possible to create a saddle point surface (concave down  > on the x-axis, concave up on the y-axis) with a ruled surface. >  > PHV |
185|169|2001-06-04 20:36:47|Gary H. Lucas|Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?|I tried several 3d programs a few years ago to see if they would be useful to me.  I spent a few days with several different packages and found that after a few days I could not model many of the parts I needed to create a machine we were building, the learning curve was too steep.  I got the demo version of Rhino and by the end of the second day I had enough of the machine built that looked pretty complete unless you zoomed in close for all the details.  So I consider Rhino to be very easy to use.  The current shipping version is 1.1, which is what you get if you download the demo.  However all the people who really use Rhino day to day are running version 2 Beta copies.  Rhino's betas are more reliable than most software in their regular releases!  Version 2 has quite a bit of hydrodynamic functions and there are a number of boat designers using it. It does calculations like buoyancy, center of buoyancy, volume etc.  There are lots and lots of ways to create surfaces!  Rhino is the tool many people fall back on when packages like Solidworks, and Pro E have trouble with complex surfaces.  Rhino can also unroll developable surfaces into a flat pattern now, but not with the demo version.  I believe if I can figure out how to create the hull shape Rhino will give me a flat pattern.  It is possible that something as simple as a 2 rail sweep with a straight line will produce much of the hull shape.  Rhino lists for $795 but you can find it for as low as $425.  The demo version is a full package, nothing is disabled but you only get to run it for 25 sessions, and you can't leave it on over night to save sessions.  I highly recommend you try it if this sort of thing interests you.  Gary H. Lucas   > > I played with early versions of Rhino, and found it > fairly complex. Are the later versions more intuitive? > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface > between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you > can model an origami hull shape by drawing the sheer, > the midline, and the joint, and then this tool should > fill in the hull. What would be more interesting is > if it includes the means then to go backwards, > unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing how > it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! > Then you could model all sorts of things, and unroll > them to get the cuts. > > Russell > |
186|169|2001-06-04 22:05:45|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|A developable has to have zero Guassian curvature.  This means that  two adjacent rulings have to be co-planar, or that the cross product  of the cross product of the ruling and the tangent to the chine at  one end and the cross pruct of the ruling and the other tangent is  zero.|
187|169|2001-06-05 08:49:39|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|> Actually, I think that you are discribing what in math terms is   called  a 'hyperbolic paraboloid'. A hyperbolic paraboloid does not  produce a  compound curved surface but is a developable surface,  again made up of conic sections and which can be described by a  series of straight lines. As such, a hyperbolic paraboloid can be  produced in sheet metal.  Portions of the  'hyperbolic paraboloid' surface can be developed,  but the saddle point (where the ruling lines cross) can not, as can  be seen in a instant in the diagram. The other hyperboloids pictured  illustrate that not all 'sweeps' can be developed.  http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs3621/LAB/surface/ruled.html  Peter|
188|188|2001-06-05 15:57:30|halgordon@earthlink.net|Michael Kasten's designs|Has anyone built The Cutter, Bedouin? Or the Mini Kat?|
189|188|2001-06-05 17:36:36|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Michael Kasten's designs|I have been waiting for a week for a reply from Kasten as to which of his designs have been built, but have so far not heard back. His last e-mail suggested I buy one of his study plans.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: <halgordon@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Michael Kasten's designs   > Has anyone built The Cutter, Bedouin? > Or the Mini Kat? > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
190|169|2001-06-05 19:13:15|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Question about Origami method|In theory the hull bends in one direction only, but in practise the  shrinkage from the cutting torch and welding shrinks the edges of the  plate, leaving about an inch of compound curve between the deck and  the chine.This  contributes greatly to the fairness and stiffness of  the topsides.This is far less in the case of a hull cut with plasma  with it's reduced shrinkage.   In the bow, the stiffness of the hull plate results in a slight  hollow in the foreward waterlines.   I don't have the plates in Cad cam yet, but hope to in the future.                                            Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > I am trying to understand how the metal deforms when bending up a  hull.  It > seems to me that the steel remains as a developable shape as it is  bent. > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point, it's not a  compound > bend.  Is this correct?   Assuming this is correct, does this imply  that one > could lay a straight edge on the hull at every point along its  length and > find a straight line where it will touch, except where the joints  are?  I am > trying to get my mind around the whole concept of what the final  shape looks > like.  I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in Rhino,  a 3D > surface program.  If I could then the program can generate hull  volume, > center of buoyancy, center of mass, etc. which would be interesting  to play > with. >  > Gary H. Lucas |
191|169|2001-06-05 19:19:56|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?|Alex is scanning the plate shape which should answer a lot of these  questions.   You can build a rugged model by cutting the pattern out of a flat  sheet of fibreglass( one layer of matt wetted out, available from most  plastic shops) , pulling it into a hull shape and fibreglassing the  inside after pulling the beam into the proper shape.This is easier if  the model is fairly large.                                              Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > That is, it only bends in one direction at any point,  > > it's not a compound bend.  Is this correct? .. >  > A topologically flat surface stays topologically flat > (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch the  > material. That's mathematics. As to the practice,  > Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the  > cutting and bending used to build origami boats  > stretches the steel.) >  > > I'd like to see if I could model a shape like this in  > > Rhino, a 3D surface program. .. >  > I played with early versions of Rhino, and found it  > fairly complex. Are the later versions more intuitive? > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat surface  > between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you  > can model an origami hull shape by drawing the sheer, > the midline, and the joint, and then this tool should > fill in the hull. What would be more interesting is  > if it includes the means then to go backwards,  > unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing how > it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! > Then you could model all sorts of things, and unroll > them to get the cuts. >  > Russell |
192|169|2001-06-06 09:06:06|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Doh!  (was: What tools does Rhino 3D have ..?)|--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:  > > Actually, I think that you are discribing what in math terms is  > called  a 'hyperbolic paraboloid'. A hyperbolic paraboloid does not  > produce a  compound curved surface but is a developable surface,  > again made up of conic sections and which can be described by a  > series of straight lines. As such, a hyperbolic paraboloid can be  > produced in sheet metal. >  > Portions of the  'hyperbolic paraboloid' surface can be developed,  > but the saddle point (where the ruling lines cross) can not, as can  > be seen in a instant in the diagram. The other hyperboloids   pictured   > illustrate that not all 'sweeps' can be developed. >  > http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/COURSES/cs3621/LAB/surface/ruled.html >  > Peter   A hyberbolic paraboloid is a ruled surface, but is not developable.   Developable surfaces must be ruled, but not all ruled surfaces are  developable.  In fact, between any two chines there exists an  infinite number of ruled surfaces but at most one is developable.  The hyperbolic paraboloid has one principal curvature that is the  circle perpendicular to the axis and the other the hyperboloid in the  axis plane.  One is positive, the other negative and their Guassian  curvature (the product of the two principals) is negative, not zero.   To be developable the rulings have to be a principal curvature.|
193|169|2001-06-06 10:14:38|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: hyberbolic paraboloids & ruled surfaces|> A hyberbolic paraboloid is a ruled surface, but is not developable.  > Developable surfaces must be ruled, but not all ruled surfaces are  > developable.     Yes. When I said otherwise in post 187, I was reacting off the cuff  to post 184, and I realized that I had made a mistake just about as  soon as I hit the send button. Anyone who tries to induce a saddle  shape in a piece of paper will see that the hyberboic paraboloid  shown at the link is not developable.  Peter|
194|169|2001-06-06 17:59:18|peter kittel|Re: What tools does Rhino 3D have to model simply curved surfaces?|Hello Alex,.. this is peter kittel whalesandsails@...  when I joined you guys I just wanted to look in on the discussion , perhaps participate,  occasionally, at my own speed. - NOT get  swamped by  e-mail daily that I don't recall asking for. Would you stop it please! and no hard feelings, okay..?  Do you know a Brent Swain boat(32' feet ?) called 'Sarsaparilla'? I wonder what happened to them, i  met them 11 years ago in Costa Rica,    I liked both of them, and was impressed by their boat,  hence my interest now.  Question: Would it be possible to cut one of your boats at the widest beam (later on) and insert a piece to lengthen it , meaning: do all hull  lines , apart from the keel allow this? If you want to know what I did since meeting Sarsap. try: www.juprowa.com/kittel , please pass them my numbers if you are  in touch with them.  thanks! peter     --- brentswain38@... wrote:  > Alex is scanning the plate shape which should answer > a lot of these  > questions. >   You can build a rugged model by cutting the > pattern out of a flat  > sheet of fibreglass( one layer of matt wetted out, > available from most  > plastic shops) , pulling it into a hull shape and > fibreglassing the  > inside after pulling the beam into the proper > shape.This is easier if  > the model is fairly large. >                                              Brent > Swain >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., turpin@y... wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > > That is, it only bends in one direction at any > point,  > > > it's not a compound bend.  Is this correct? .. > >  > > A topologically flat surface stays topologically > flat > > (no compound curves), unless you somehow stretch > the  > > material. That's mathematics. As to the practice,  > > Brent should say. (But I would be surprised if the >  > > cutting and bending used to build origami boats  > > stretches the steel.) > >  > > > I'd like to see if I could model a shape like > this in  > > > Rhino, a 3D surface program. .. > >  > > I played with early versions of Rhino, and found > it  > > fairly complex. Are the later versions more > intuitive? > > Does it include a tool that fills in a flat > surface  > > between two single-dimensioned curves? If so, you  > > can model an origami hull shape by drawing the > sheer, > > the midline, and the joint, and then this tool > should > > fill in the hull. What would be more interesting > is  > > if it includes the means then to go backwards,  > > unrolling the hull into a flat surface, showing > how > > it needs to be cut to create the resulting shape! > > Then you could model all sorts of things, and > unroll > > them to get the cuts. > >  > > Russell >  >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35  a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/|
195|195|2001-06-07 07:17:47|David Hilliar|Michael Kasten|          Hi all I have just recently recieved an email from Michael. He is/has  been on holiday but has returned my email. I too would be interested in hearing about his designs, They  apeal to me with their traditional design and looks. David  |
196|196|2001-06-07 08:17:11|Gary H. Lucas|Got It!|All this talk of hyperbolic paraboloids makes my head spin!  I have always been very good at visualizing 3D objects from 2D and so forth, but I am very weak in the advanced math department.  I printed out the hi-res pictures of the posted 36' boat under construction and have been looking at those pictures every so often trying to my mind wrapped around those curves.  Last night I cut out a paper version by eyeball and folded it up.  I also played a little in Rhino to see how I might construct a hull like this.  It finally hit me and it is SO simple!  Here's how it works.  The hull is made up ENTIRELY of CONIC sections, straight lines ruled on the surface all come to a common point.  The first conic section is the center portion of side from the point on one side of the T shaped cutout to the other.  The sides of the hull at the center only taper inward a few degrees, so this conic section has its center point WAY below the bottom of the hull, say 100 feet on a 36' hull.  The second conic section is at the bow.  Its CENTER is at the point of the T cutout and it sweeps from the start of the first section around to a point near the bottom of the T cutout.  A third conic section is formed from the edge of the second and the weld line, and it sweeps along the bottom of the first conic section where the hard chine is.  The stern works in  similar fashion.  What makes this so difficult to visualize is that the conic sections may not have a constant radius, and there are only two curved edges, visible the rail at the top of the first section, and the hard chine line at the top of the third conic section.  The other edges are all irregular because they meet the rail at an angle or they meet the centerline of the boat.  What this all means to me is that the hull can EASILY be modeled in a 3D program, and that Rhino in particular can unwrap this thing to a flat pattern with no problem!  The only distortion you should get is from the welding, which Brent indicated is minimal, and at the center point of the second conic section which is located at the top point of the T cutout.  It appears that making a circular cutout at the center point would greatly reduce distortion and the amount of effort needed to pull the plates into alignment.  A small disk of material, possibly pounded in a somewhat hemispherical shape could then be used to plug the round hole smoothly.  I hope to make a 3D model and unfold it over the next few days.  If I am success I will post some pictures of the result.  Gary H. Lucas|
197|196|2001-06-07 18:23:11|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Got It!|If the two top corners at the top of the T total 180 degrees, there  should be no distortion there ,and there hasn't been any problem  there. If there is, it can easily be fine tuned out after the rest of  the boat has been pulled together.                                       Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > All this talk of hyperbolic paraboloids makes my head spin!  I have  always > been very good at visualizing 3D objects from 2D and so forth, but I  am very > weak in the advanced math department.  I printed out the hi-res  pictures of > the posted 36' boat under construction and have been looking at  those > pictures every so often trying to my mind wrapped around those  curves.  Last > night I cut out a paper version by eyeball and folded it up.  I also  played > a little in Rhino to see how I might construct a hull like this.  It  finally > hit me and it is SO simple! >  > Here's how it works.  The hull is made up ENTIRELY of CONIC  sections, > straight lines ruled on the surface all come to a common point.  The  first > conic section is the center portion of side from the point on one  side of > the T shaped cutout to the other.  The sides of the hull at the  center only > taper inward a few degrees, so this conic section has its center  point WAY > below the bottom of the hull, say 100 feet on a 36' hull.  The  second conic > section is at the bow.  Its CENTER is at the point of the T cutout  and it > sweeps from the start of the first section around to a point near  the bottom > of the T cutout.  A third conic section is formed from the edge of  the > second and the weld line, and it sweeps along the bottom of the  first conic > section where the hard chine is.  The stern works in  similar  fashion.  What > makes this so difficult to visualize is that the conic sections may  not have > a constant radius, and there are only two curved edges, visible the  rail at > the top of the first section, and the hard chine line at the top of  the > third conic section.  The other edges are all irregular because they  meet > the rail at an angle or they meet the centerline of the boat. >  > What this all means to me is that the hull can EASILY be modeled in  a 3D > program, and that Rhino in particular can unwrap this thing to a  flat > pattern with no problem!  The only distortion you should get is from  the > welding, which Brent indicated is minimal, and at the center point  of the > second conic section which is located at the top point of the T  cutout.  It > appears that making a circular cutout at the center point would  greatly > reduce distortion and the amount of effort needed to pull the plates  into > alignment.  A small disk of material, possibly pounded in a somewhat > hemispherical shape could then be used to plug the round hole  smoothly. >  > I hope to make a 3D model and unfold it over the next few days.  If  I am > success I will post some pictures of the result. >  > Gary H. Lucas |
198|198|2001-06-07 21:05:02|Alex & Kim Christie|swain hull model|Attachments :          Dear Group,   I have attached a GIF of the example model that  Brent has mentioned that you can cut out to illustrate the process of building  one of these hulls.   I have it in JPEG format too, and will post this to  the group files later on.   I have tried to format both to print out to about 8  by 10 inches, suitable for printing. Let me know how it works out -- my printer  is broken.   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
199|198|2001-06-08 01:18:44|Michael Casling|Re: swain hull model|             I think I have just successfully built my first  boat. But I need a deck. Michael Casling. Tanzer 8.5m  owner. This is my first posting to the group. caslingm@... <b>-----Original Message-----</b><b>From:  </b>Alex & Kim Christie <ravencoast@...><b>To: </b>origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com><b>Date:  </b>Thursday, June 07, 2001 6:06 PM<b>Subject: </b>[origamiboats] swain hull  model Dear Group,   I have attached a GIF of the example model that  Brent has mentioned that you can cut out to illustrate the process of building  one of these hulls.   I have it in JPEG format too, and will post this to  the group files later on.   I have tried to format both to print out to about 8  by 10 inches, suitable for printing. Let me know how it works out -- my printer  is broken.   Alex Christie   (moderator)To  Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo  Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!  Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms of Service. |
200|200|2001-06-08 07:35:47|Gary H. Lucas|Modified Swain drawing|I scanned the drawing Alex sent and added lines showing how I perceive the conic sections that show how the metal bends.  Hope I got this right.  Sorry the file is so much bigger, are there different GIF formats?  Gary H. Lucas|
201|201|2001-06-08 07:47:54|Gary H. Lucas|No attachment|I see attachments don't work.  Alex, do files get sent to you for posting?  Gary H. Lucas|
202|198|2001-06-08 11:05:00|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: swain hull model|>I think I have just successfully built my first boat. But I need a deck. >Michael Casling. Tanzer 8.5m owner. This is my first posting to the group. >caslingm@...   Michael:Congratulations on building your first boat, and welcome to the group!  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
203|200|2001-06-08 11:09:16|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Modified Swain drawing|Maybe Yahoo puts a limit on the size of file that can be scanned. Try saving as a JPEG instead.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 3:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Modified Swain drawing   > I scanned the drawing Alex sent and added lines showing how I perceive the > conic sections that show how the metal bends.  Hope I got this right. Sorry > the file is so much bigger, are there different GIF formats? > > Gary H. Lucas > |
204|204|2001-06-08 20:32:58|Gary H. Lucas|Modified Swain Drawing|Attachments :Here is a modified version of the drawing showing conic section bend lines|
205|204|2001-06-09 01:53:12|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Modified Swain Drawing|Thanks Gary, I'll add it to the files for those who are interested.  I hadn't thought much about the geometry of how the sheet material behaves, but the lot of you really hashed it over very nicely. Good work!  Knowledge of this sort, especially when tied in with a good CAD program, should make it much easier to adapt the technique to a wide range of hulls. Brent has already worked out a dinghy, but it would be further interesting to work out something for a utility skiff. Playing around with cardboard works too, of course...call it the poor-man's computer.  I like how it never crashes, unlike my windows-based computer...  Alex Christie  (moderator)    ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Modified Swain Drawing   > Here is a modified version of the drawing showing conic section bend lines > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
206|154|2001-06-10 21:32:18|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Steel masts vs stability at normal heel angles|of a   > steel mast would be the same as an aluminum mast of equal weight,  > BUT, if the two masts were of equal weight then either the aluminum  > weight mast will be way stronger than would be required for the   loads   > involved or the steel mast would be very undersized for the loads.  >  > In other words, A60 steel is three times heavier for a given cross  > section than Aluminum, but only 1.5 times stronger than aluminum.   (Of   > course the equation gets worse if A36 steel (common cold rolled  > structural steel) is used.) Beyond that, given the long panel   lengths   > and the typical combination of bending and axial loads found in a  > typcial rig, the sectional properties will often govern such that   in   > reality a steel mast may end up being over twice as heavy as an   equal   > strength aluminum mast.   A stayed mast is a slender column and controlled by Euler buckling,  not yield.  Young's modulus and section properties control Euler  buckling and the ratio of Young's modulus to weight for steel is a  bit higher than aluminum.  In theory then a stayed steel mast would  be  few percent lighter than an aluminum one for the same external  size.  Your point about section properties is valid though, because the  thinnest steel tubulars of mast size are on the order of 18 - 16 GA  (standard chain link fence posts are usually 17 GA) and these  thicknesses are on the lower edge of weldability and very vulnerable  to corrosion and local buckling induced by impacts.  This corresponds  to 0.150 or thicker aluminum, which is usually associated with a  pretty big mast section.  Thus a steel mast may be appropriate only  for some large craft.  It is a simple analysis to make though, and it  is worth checking.|
207|207|2001-06-10 21:43:05|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Line heating|Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not.  Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double  curved plates.  This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting  oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the steel  into various curves, including compound shapes.  It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and  more accurate.  Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with  double backset along the chine of an origami boat?|
208|207|2001-06-11 09:02:38|John Callahan|Re: Line heating|--- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote:  > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. >  > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double  > curved plates.  This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting  > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the   steel   > into various curves, including compound shapes. >  > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and  > more accurate. >  > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with  > double backset along the chine of an origami boat?    With appoligies. I don't understand your question. Are you talking  about a doubler plate for strength or inserting a curved plate to  eliminate the hard chine?   John|
209|207|2001-06-11 18:44:05|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Line heating|CD, The problem I see is that there is quite a bit of residual stress at the chine because the plates are only bent to shape without overbending to take a permanent set.  I think making a cut would cause the hull to spring out of shape unless really well restrained somehow.  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdbarry@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Line heating   > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double > curved plates.  This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the steel > into various curves, including compound shapes. > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and > more accurate. > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
210|210|2001-06-11 19:09:02|Phillip Allen|Fwd: Masts & (spars in general)|>From: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@...> >To: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@...> >Subject: Masts & (spars in general) >Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) > >This is my first post here and is a >question/questions. >      In reading the posts concerning masts I have >wondered if we're talking about a sailing boat or a >space shuttle.  Considering that it would be easy to >taper a steel mast by telescoping and then welding >smaller sections to the larger base, weight aloft (how >much weight are we talking about, anyway?) might be >minimized.  As a (hopefully) future along distance >cruiser, maintenance skills within my own grasp are >attractive.  Yes, aluminum may be welded...but, maybe >not by just anyone.  The other thing I must consider >is that, likely, I won't be able to "choose" the >material used.  It will take all my resources to >purchase the boat and will cause me to look for >"bargains"...what about wood spars?  How does wood >compare with steel and aluminum for weight and >strength?  How much additional hardware would be >required for wood? > > > >===== >Pillip D. Allen >phillipdallen@... >http://ozarkmasonry.homestead.com > >Meeting your masonry consulting needs, world-wide! > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com|
211|211|2001-06-12 00:06:31|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: rounded chine|> The problem I see is that there is quite a bit of residual stress at the > chine because the plates are only bent to shape without overbending to  take  > a permanent set.   Just a thought, but I am thinking here that the residual stresses might also be inherently good for creating a stress-skin which adds to overall stiffness of the hull.  Another question to ponder:  would there be much of a hydrodynamic difference between a hull such as this with its very short hard chine, vs a hull like this with a rounded corner in the same area? It may be that the work involved to create a rounded chine (which is underwater, mostly), might not be worth the effort if it doesn't yield a big difference in performance.  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
212|211|2001-06-12 08:40:32|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: rounded chine|Does anyone know what Ted Brewer does for his 'radius bilge' designs.  I was under the impression that he used a section of pipe, but I  don't actually know. At any rate, I think that worrying about the  chine radius is not 'origamiboat' type thinking, i.e. if you are  going to insist on a fancier boat, why start with origami  construction.  IMHO, without anything to support it, I doubt that replacing the  chine angle  with a radius will matter unless the radius is quite  large, say 6" or more.  Peter|
213|210|2001-06-12 09:15:41|willyacht@yahoo.com|Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general)|You have some valid points. If you really wanted to get advanced, you  could select a spring steel  or any steel with a high carbon content  about .5% or greater,  taper the mast then get the whole thing heat  treated. This would give you enormous strength probably with same  ability to bend and recover as aluminium. Because you using high  strength carbon steel you could also use a thinner gauge.  Minor  weakning from welding could be planned carefully and it would not be  hard to retemper with a oxy torch after working or joining the  sections together. There are companies now who can heat treat extreme  lengths. Not worrying about loosing your mast and shelving out 10  grand brings piece of mind!  Will   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Phillip Allen" <phillipdallen@h...> wrote: >  >  >  > >From: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> > >To: Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@h...> > >Subject: Masts & (spars in general) > >Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) > > > >This is my first post here and is a > >question/questions. > >      In reading the posts concerning masts I have > >wondered if we're talking about a sailing boat or a > >space shuttle.  Considering that it would be easy to > >taper a steel mast by telescoping and then welding > >smaller sections to the larger base, weight aloft (how > >much weight are we talking about, anyway?) might be > >minimized.  As a (hopefully) future along distance > >cruiser, maintenance skills within my own grasp are > >attractive.  Yes, aluminum may be welded...but, maybe > >not by just anyone.  The other thing I must consider > >is that, likely, I won't be able to "choose" the > >material used.  It will take all my resources to > >purchase the boat and will cause me to look for > >"bargains"...what about wood spars?  How does wood > >compare with steel and aluminum for weight and > >strength?  How much additional hardware would be > >required for wood? > > > > > > > >===== > >Pillip D. Allen > >phillipdallen@y... > >http://ozarkmasonry.homestead.com > > > >Meeting your masonry consulting needs, world-wide! > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > >a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ >  > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com |
214|211|2001-06-12 22:27:06|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: rounded chine|--- In origamiboats@y..., pvanderw@o... wrote:  >  > Does anyone know what Ted Brewer does for his 'radius bilge'   designs.   > I was under the impression that he used a section of pipe, but I  > don't actually know. At any rate, I think that worrying about the  > chine radius is not 'origamiboat' type thinking, i.e. if you are  > going to insist on a fancier boat, why start with origami  > construction. >  > IMHO, without anything to support it, I doubt that replacing the  > chine angle  with a radius will matter unless the radius is quite  > large, say 6" or more. >  > Peter   I understand most radius chine hulls are rolled plates.    A typical line heated plate would have 6-12" of transverse backset in  thirty inches of span, which, if it was a radius, would be fairly  large - a couple of feet or more.  Line heating a single plate is about a shift or so, including the  sight templates, so we are only talking about 16 manhours or so of  extra labor to eliminate the chine altogether.|
215|207|2001-06-12 22:28:10|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Line heating|--- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote:  > --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > >  > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double  > > curved plates.  This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting  > > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the  > steel  > > into various curves, including compound shapes. > >  > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and  > > more accurate. > >  > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with  > > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? >  >  > With appoligies. I don't understand your question. Are you talking  > about a doubler plate for strength or inserting a curved plate to  > eliminate the hard chine? >  >  > John   An insert.|
216|210|2001-06-12 22:31:51|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Fwd: Masts & (spars in general)|--- In origamiboats@y..., willyacht@y... wrote:  > You have some valid points. If you really wanted to get advanced,   you   > could select a spring steel  or any steel with a high carbon   content   > about .5% or greater,  taper the mast then get the whole thing heat  > treated.    If you need higher yields, there are plenty of readily weldable HSLA  steels. However, these steels (and QT steels) only have higher yields  and yield doesn't effect stayed mast strength.|
217|217|2001-06-13 09:13:15|Gary H. Lucas|Update on devolpable surfaces|I've been playing with creating 3D models of an Origami hull in Rhino.  I have made a little progress.  I can create a hull of sorts and it unfolds to a flat pattern with little problem.  The command that creates a conical section which can be unrolled in Rhino is call RAIL REVOLVE with ScaleHeight Option on.  You need to supply an arbitrary axis ( I used a vertical axis ) in order for the command to work.  It appears there are some fairly large limitations on the hull shapes that can be generated.  The bow must have a fairly long overhang, otherwise you get a crease line running from the end of the chine to the bow.  I am not a boat designer and I have little idea of real boat shapes. What I have done so far is draw a top view of the sheerline that kind of looks good, picked a chine location in a similar fashion and then an arbitrary location for the end of the chine where the bow conic section would start.  Unlike working with a flat pattern that you must fold up to see what it will look like I can go through quite a few variations to what changes in a fairly quick way.   I will post some images once I get a better handle on this.  Gary H. Lucas|
218|217|2001-06-13 11:18:02|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: Update on devolpable surfaces|If I correctly interpret what you want, then a typical axis would be  strongly raked aft (more than 45 degrees). It would originate at a  point just about under the bowsprit, and a foot or so on the 'other'  side of the boats centerline.   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote:  > You need to supply an arbitrary axis ( I used a vertical axis ) > in order for the command to work. |
219|219|2001-06-14 08:25:43|kupris1948@ameritech.net|deck prisms|Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive, and  I need 2 to 4 of them. John|
220|207|2001-06-15 22:50:34|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Line heating|When Gunter Richtler cut the chine out to radius it on the first one  of my boats he did, he did the cut with no support, and the hull  sagged considerably. Good support is neccesary.                                          Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > CD, > The problem I see is that there is quite a bit of residual stress  at the > chine because the plates are only bent to shape without overbending  to take > a permanent set.  I think making a cut would cause the hull to  spring out of > shape unless really well restrained somehow. >  > Gary H. Lucas >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <cdbarry@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 9:43 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Line heating >  >  > > Just a comment, somewhat off subject, though perhaps not. > > > > Most large commercial shipyards use line heating to form double > > curved plates.  This method uses a cutting torch with the cutting > > oxygen turned off and a water hose to intentionally distort the  steel > > into various curves, including compound shapes. > > > > It is used instad of heavy machines because it is much faster and > > more accurate. > > > > Getting back to the subject, what about subbing in a plate with > > double backset along the chine of an origami boat? > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > > |
221|219|2001-06-15 23:00:52|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: deck prisms|Could they perhaps be made of solid block of Acrylic? What is it that makes a prism do its thing? If we can crack the code on it, we should be able to replicate it.    ----- Original Message ----- From: <kupris1948@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] deck prisms   > Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive, and > I need 2 to 4 of them. John |
222|217|2001-06-16 21:04:29|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Update on devolpable surfaces|If you can find a copy of Ullman Kilgore's article on developable  surfaces from the FAO fishing vessels series this will help find the  true rulings you need.  You can also download a series of points on  both chines and search for zero warp using the definition of co- planarity.  This would not be too hard with a spreadsheet.  I  promised to upload a copy of an article on developables on the SBYD  site, (www.sbyd.com) but haven't got around to it yet.  It was an  article in Boatbuilder magazine a while back.  If you are interested, a professional level suite for doing this type  of thing (and much more) is Ship Constructor from  www.albacoreresearch.com.  I think you can download a demo.|
223|219|2001-06-16 21:06:32|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: deck prisms|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Could they perhaps be made of solid block of Acrylic? What is it   that makes  > a prism do its thing? If we can crack the code on it, we should be   able to  > replicate it. >  >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <kupris1948@a...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 5:25 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] deck prisms >  >  > > Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are   expensive, and  > > I need 2 to 4 of them. John   It's just a matter of simple optics. Any optical physics book will  have the needful information. The angles have to be corrected for the  different material index of refraction.|
224|224|2001-06-17 20:53:03|Gary H. Lucas|Got It! part 2|Attachments :It's been raining like mad so I took some time to play.  The attached JPGs show two renderings of an attempt at producing a 3D origami hull.  The third JPG shows the unrolled pattern.  I cut it out and taped it together, it looks like a boat.  Lots of playing here.  This is supposed to be a 30' long by 9' wide hull.  Notice the reverse transom, and the little extra piece at the chine.  I tried to see if you could make it multi-chine, to soften the sharp edge.  On the paper model this is quite effective at making the hull look rounder.  The stern is kind of excessively V shaped to my eye.  I haven't yet figured out the defining curves to make it rounder, without a reverse kink in the transom.  Gary H. Lucas|
225|224|2001-06-18 00:56:53|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Got It! part 2|Keep up the good work, Gary! Definitely reveals the inner workings of the geometry at work with this system.  I'll put your hull models into the group files for future members to see.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 5:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Got It! part 2   > It's been raining like mad so I took some time to play.  The attached JPGs > show two renderings of an attempt at producing a 3D origami hull.  The third > JPG shows the unrolled pattern.  I cut it out and taped it together, it > looks like a boat.  Lots of playing here.  This is supposed to be a 30' long |
226|219|2001-06-18 17:22:03|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: deck prisms|There is only so much light which can get through a deck prism, the  amount of light striking the surface. All the prism does is spread  the light around a lot . Any piece of acrylic or other transparent  material ground to the same shape will do the same thing.The  shinnyness of the inside surface shouldn't make much difference.   Deck prisms are a notorious source of deck leaks. If you make your  own with a stainless base welded in ,it shouldn't be hard to do a  better job of engineering it to be easier to work on and get a good  seal than the commercially made ones .   Personally, I'd be more inclined to put plexiglass panels in the  cabintop where they would take less water over them than on the  deck.It's easier to learn to live with less light than to learn to  live with deck leaks.                                             Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., kupris1948@a... wrote: > Is there any way to make these? The commercial ones are expensive,  and  > I need 2 to 4 of them. John |
227|219|2001-06-18 17:36:09|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: deck prisms|Would a panel of plexi in the cabin top, combined with a triangular (in section) piece glued to the under side do the job of spreading the light? Or would a piece of plexi alone do the trick, then paint the inside of the cabin a light colour to diffuse the light?  Or maybe a nice little disco ball from Radio Shack hung just below the plexiglass? ;)  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: deck prisms   > There is only so much light which can get through a deck prism, the > amount of light striking the surface. All the prism does is spread > the light around a lot . Any piece of acrylic or other transparent > material ground to the same shape will do the same thing.The > shinnyness of the inside surface shouldn't make much difference. >   Deck prisms are a notorious source of deck leaks. If you make your > own with a stainless base welded in ,it shouldn't be hard to do a > better job of engineering it to be easier to work on and get a good > seal than the commercially made ones . >   Personally, I'd be more inclined to put plexiglass panels in the > cabintop where they would take less water over them than on the > deck.It's easier to learn to live with less light than to learn to > live with deck leaks. >                                             Brent Swain |
228|228|2001-06-18 18:50:14|Gary H. Lucas|Thoughts on painting|I am currently working on repainting a 1979 Catalina 22 that needed a lot of glass work.  As I wet sanded the hull between coats of paint for the umpteenth time my thoughts were on what it would be like to have a metal boat.  Specifically the difference between a  steel boat and an aluminum one.  I hear everyone say what a wonderful easy material steel is for building a boat, especially with today's modern paints, then I think about how much I hate painting!  It's been said that steel boats rust out from the inside, so that means you also need to do as good a job painting inside as you do outside.  The finish isn't important but thorough coverage is, and there are LOTS of nooks and crannies to deal with, as well as painting in dark corners and over your head.  Then there is the prep work, grinding and sandblasting both inside and out.  In a few years the outside needs to be painted again, and I would guess after 10 to 20 years the inside will need work too, only now it is covered up by everything you put inside the boat. Finally while a steel boat is cheaper to build, older steel boats seem to sell for very little money.  A boat can be built from aluminum that is equally as strong as a steel boat, by making every thing thicker, yet it will still be 50% or more lighter. When you are building it all the pieces are much easier to handle because they are so much lighter.  Welding aluminum out of position ( vertical or overhead ) is easier than welding steel. When you are done welding and grinding, you are done with the finish, inside and out, except for bottom paint.  Electrolysis can be a problem but there appear to be lots of ways to deal with that problem.  It appears that when you finally decide to sell the boat aluminum boats bring a premium price, even more than an equivalent fiberglass boat, so building the boat may have been quite a good investment if done well.  Okay so aluminum DOES cost considerably more than steel for the raw materials but with all the above in mind why would you want to spend lots of hours and have a reduced return on your investment to own a steel boat, rather than an aluminum one?  I work with aluminum every day, it is easily my favorite material to work with.  So what am I missing here?  Gary H. Lucas|
229|228|2001-06-18 21:52:03|winslow59@yahoo.com|Gary, a link to a couple articles...|Michael Kasten wrote some articles about aluminum, steel, and boat  building -- they're worth reading. Look for them on his website.  http://www.kastenmarine.com http://www.kastenmarine.com/articles.htm  -Markus|
230|228|2001-06-19 17:57:41|Doug Barnard|New to List- what about trawlers?|I've been reading the discussions on this List, and find it fascinating. My wife and I are planning on building a 48' steel trawler that was designed by Charles Wittholz. The framing is the traditional method, with longitudinal stringers on 5" X 1/4" transverse frames about every 2'. Can these methods be adapted for a full-displacement boat of this size? The 300 hour time period to assemble a boat that Brent Swain mentioned really blew my mind!  I'm mailing off a check today for $23 US for Brent's book. Even if origami techniques can't be used on the hull, I'm very interested in finding ways to fabricate whatever I can.  Brent mentioned in one of his posts, "I usually buy the plate wheelabraded and pre primed with a cold galvanizing primer ( 80 % pus zinc ) Straight from the steel supliers." I've called at least 15 steel yards in the Los Angeles area, and *all* of them have never heard of blasted and pre-primed steel, and haven't a clue as to where I could find it. Any suggestions?   Thanks! ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard                   Virtual Acreage http://virtualacreage.com       818-991-9328|
231|231|2001-06-19 21:13:30|burr.halpern|Wittholz designs|I used to work for the late Charlie Wittholz. Charlie was very careful in engineering his designs. I would be very hesitant to delete any structure from his designs without having a marine engineer check what you are proposing first. Charlie was neat guy and a very good yacht designer.  Good luck, Jeff|
232|228|2001-06-19 22:06:35|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: New to List- what about trawlers?|I've called at least 15 steel yards in the Los  > Angeles area, and *all* of them have never heard of blasted and pre-  primed  > steel, and haven't a clue as to where I could find it. Any   suggestions?  Farwest Steel, Eugene OR - They have an 800 number.  You will also  have to talk to them about your welding techniques to choose an  appropriate primer.  They will also CNC off of DXF burnsheets.  This is another technique  for quick construction.  Note though the wisdom of many small shipyards "we always make money  on steel, but outfit eats our lunch".  Find out about modern outfit techniques for shipbuilding as well so  you don't have to spend four years fitting out a hull you built in  two months.|
233|228|2001-06-19 22:22:18|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Thoughts on painting|I've designed dozens of aluminum boats both as a consultant and in  shipyards.  Aluminum is a good material, though the actual weight  savings is closer to 20-30% not 50%.  Note that the Kasten articles use an incorrect value for aluminum  yield.  If you need to develop scantlings for an aluminum boat, and  do not wish to hire a naval architect or a yacht designer, take a  look at NVIC 11-80 at www.uscg.mil under marine safety and  environmental protection.  This is a widely used scantling rule that  can be downloaded free, though it is for crewboats.  The  ABS "Rules ... Offshore Racing Yachts" cover sailing yachts, but you  will have to buy it at www.eagle.org.  (ISO is developing rules for  aluminum recreational boats, but they are not yet available to the  general public.)  The drawback to aluminum are that it has lower strain energy to  rupture (less tough), that you have problems with piping and  fittings, that you have to be careful of electrical systems, that  anti-fouling paint is a problem, that it has to be GMAW welded, that  it can't be line heated and that it is more expensive than steel  (though this may not be true overall for any given project - run the  numbers).  SOme of it's other advantages over steel are somewhat  overstated as well, such as the ease of welding - GMAW on aluminum is  faster than SMAW on steel, but GMAW on steel is as fast, except as  you note, overhead.  (And push only rigs are cheaper than push-pull  or spool on gun rigs that are advised for aluminum.)  All that said though, aluminum is a very good material for boats.   You have to look at the overall costs of the project and you  situation and run the numbers.|
234|228|2001-06-20 11:42:27|Doug Barnard|Re: New to List- what about trawlers?|Thanks for the reply!   > Farwest Steel, Eugene OR - They have an 800 number.  You will also > have to talk to them about your welding techniques to choose an > appropriate primer.   That sounds great! I hope that shipping doesn't kill me on this...   > They will also CNC off of DXF burnsheets.  This is another technique > for quick construction.   I've found that to be extremely expensive, and shipping on that could also be problematic. I plan on building everything that I can, so I find it hard to justify paying through the nose to save some plasma cutting. I'm a man of limited means and I guess that I'm not that much in a hurry!   > Note though the wisdom of many small shipyards "we always make money > on steel, but outfit eats our lunch". > > Find out about modern outfit techniques for shipbuilding as well so > you don't have to spend four years fitting out a hull you built in > two months.   Any sources of info? It seems like in Roberts' "Steel Boats" and Smith/Moir's "Steel Away", the concentration is mainly on hull and deck structure. There doesn't seem to be much on putting the rest together. I'm looking forward to Brent Swain's book to fill in the gaps.  This sounds like a interesting area that could use some real discussion, I'm all ears!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
235|231|2001-06-20 11:42:57|Doug Barnard|Re: Wittholz designs|> I used to work for the late Charlie Wittholz. Charlie was very careful > in engineering his designs. I would be very hesitant to delete any > structure from his designs without having a marine engineer check what > you are proposing first. Charlie was neat guy and a very good yacht > designer.   Wow, that must've been great working for Charlie! I've spoken with his widow, and she's supposed to be sending me out a catalog of his motor designs.  You bring up an excellent point, and echo my deepest fear about the folded steel method. How do we validate designs? Most good traditional steel yachts are probably very similar below decks, and have similar specs. I'm not in the position to pay a folded steel designer to design me up a 48' trawler from scratch. So where do we go?  Does anyone know of a good marine engineer that is hip to the folded steel thing that could help me out? I've asked Brent Swain if he could be hired to adapt me plans, but haven't received a reply.  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
236|228|2001-06-20 17:15:12|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: New to List- what about trawlers?|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote:   > I've found that to be extremely expensive, and shipping on that   could also  > be problematic. I plan on building everything that I can, so I find   it hard  > to justify paying through the nose to save some plasma cutting.    ? Last time I asked, most places included plasma cutting in the metal  price or real near.  What high cost are you talking about?  >   > Any sources of info? It seems like in Roberts' "Steel Boats" and > Smith/Moir's "Steel Away", the concentration is mainly on hull and   deck  > structure. There doesn't seem to be much on putting the rest   together. I'm  > looking forward to Brent Swain's book to fill in the gaps. >  > This sounds like a interesting area that could use some real   discussion, I'm  > all ears!   You will have to look at some professional level shipbuilding stuff -  try to get "Ship Production" via interlibrary loan, or go to the UCLA  engineering library (you can get a UC library card with your CA  driver's license) and look up "Journal of Ship Production".  It's  heavy going, but scanning through back issues will give you an idea.   Calkins did a good paper on small ship advanced outfit a few years  back.|
237|228|2001-06-20 17:51:32|Doug Barnard|Plasma cutting|> From: cdbarry@... [mailto:cdbarry@...]  > ? Last time I asked, most places included plasma cutting in the metal > price or real near.  What high cost are you talking about?   !!!! I've been quoted thousands of $$$. Like 30 cents an inch. These are third party guys, with a small shop. Designers like Buehler and Roberts charge thousands of $$$ just for the cutting files. If "most places" that you know of will do this, that's great! "Most places" that I call just want to sell me a sheet of plate and get the hell out. They are uniformly ignorant of anything else that I might want done with it.  Guess that I've been looking for love in all the wrong places!  You mentioned Far West in Eugene, OR. Got any others?  So the way to go is to develop the hull, loft all the parts in the computer, arrange them on the equivalent sheet size, write a dxf, and email to one these "most places"? Wow! Wouldn't life be grand then!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
238|228|2001-06-20 17:52:20|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Thoughts on painting|Thanks CD,  I am quite familiar with aluminum welding, and so much of what I see is BAD! The problem is that a lot of people try to use short arc welding on aluminum, and if you want any strength you have to use spray arc.  Spray arc is much faster, cleaner and nicer looking than short arc anyway.  I have a Miller spool gun running off a gas powered CC welder at work.  When I went to buy it none of the dealers even wanted to quote on it for use with a CC machine.  Changed one jumper and works just fine, a little different but we still get good welds.  Push welding aluminum is a joke, nothing but trouble. If you are going to weld aluminum get a spool gun and be done with it.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdbarry@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Thoughts on painting   > I've designed dozens of aluminum boats both as a consultant and in > shipyards.  Aluminum is a good material, though the actual weight > savings is closer to 20-30% not 50%. > > Note that the Kasten articles use an incorrect value for aluminum > yield.  If you need to develop scantlings for an aluminum boat, and > do not wish to hire a naval architect or a yacht designer, take a > look at NVIC 11-80 at www.uscg.mil under marine safety and > environmental protection.  This is a widely used scantling rule that > can be downloaded free, though it is for crewboats.  The > ABS "Rules ... Offshore Racing Yachts" cover sailing yachts, but you > will have to buy it at www.eagle.org.  (ISO is developing rules for > aluminum recreational boats, but they are not yet available to the > general public.) > > The drawback to aluminum are that it has lower strain energy to > rupture (less tough), that you have problems with piping and > fittings, that you have to be careful of electrical systems, that > anti-fouling paint is a problem, that it has to be GMAW welded, that > it can't be line heated and that it is more expensive than steel > (though this may not be true overall for any given project - run the > numbers).  SOme of it's other advantages over steel are somewhat > overstated as well, such as the ease of welding - GMAW on aluminum is > faster than SMAW on steel, but GMAW on steel is as fast, except as > you note, overhead.  (And push only rigs are cheaper than push-pull > or spool on gun rigs that are advised for aluminum.) > > All that said though, aluminum is a very good material for boats. > You have to look at the overall costs of the project and you > situation and run the numbers. > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >       Click for Details > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
239|228|2001-06-20 20:37:22|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Thoughts on painting|The steel laying on the ground for my 36 footer costs roughly  $6,000 . The aluminium costs $20,000 . A friend with a lot of  cruising experience (circumnavigation, etc.) and a master scrounger ,  doing his own work , had one of my 36 footers sailing for $14,000 and  was on his way to Hawaii for $17,000, still less than the cost of the  aluminium alone for the same boat . The boat was extremely well  built.This is before you include welding equipment , gas , wire, etc.    You can build a trawler, or any other hard chine boat using the  origami method, then put in afterwards , any additional structural  you feel comfortable with, saving a tremendous amount of time and  money over the traditional "imitation wooden boatbuilding"methods .   The worst you could do is end up with a little extra weight and  work.    I design only sailing vessels, and don't have any experience or  interest in powerboats, altho I'd be happy to do whatever I can to  help make the job easier .                                         Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > I've designed dozens of aluminum boats both as a consultant and in  > shipyards.  Aluminum is a good material, though the actual weight  > savings is closer to 20-30% not 50%. >  > Note that the Kasten articles use an incorrect value for aluminum  > yield.  If you need to develop scantlings for an aluminum boat, and  > do not wish to hire a naval architect or a yacht designer, take a  > look at NVIC 11-80 at www.uscg.mil under marine safety and  > environmental protection.  This is a widely used scantling rule  that  > can be downloaded free, though it is for crewboats.  The  > ABS "Rules ... Offshore Racing Yachts" cover sailing yachts, but  you  > will have to buy it at www.eagle.org.  (ISO is developing rules for  > aluminum recreational boats, but they are not yet available to the  > general public.) >  > The drawback to aluminum are that it has lower strain energy to  > rupture (less tough), that you have problems with piping and  > fittings, that you have to be careful of electrical systems, that  > anti-fouling paint is a problem, that it has to be GMAW welded,  that  > it can't be line heated and that it is more expensive than steel  > (though this may not be true overall for any given project - run  the  > numbers).  SOme of it's other advantages over steel are somewhat  > overstated as well, such as the ease of welding - GMAW on aluminum  is  > faster than SMAW on steel, but GMAW on steel is as fast, except as  > you note, overhead.  (And push only rigs are cheaper than push-pull  > or spool on gun rigs that are advised for aluminum.) >  > All that said though, aluminum is a very good material for boats.   > You have to look at the overall costs of the project and you  > situation and run the numbers. |
240|228|2001-06-20 20:57:14|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Thoughts on painting|If the inside of a steel boat is properly painted with at least 3  coats or more of epoxy tar it should never need painting. My last  boat was built in 1976 and is still going strong . The original  inside paint is still there. One of my 36 footers , built in 1984 was  recently surveyed with ultrasound and the hull was very close to it's  original thickness despite a 7 year circumnavigation.   Several of my boats were sold more than ten years after they were  built for several times what  their owners had in them ,some sold  several times for the same price. From what I've seen ,steel boats  hold their value as well as any other boatbuilding material if they  are properly built, maintained and painted in the first place. Only  those which have been unpainted inside, or badly neglected , lose a  great deal of value.This is true , of course ,only  in places where  people understand the value of a steel boat. It may not be true in  places of extreme consumer programming where people have been  brainwashed by the peddlars of trendy plastic , to the point where  the glossy ads do their thinking for them.                                               --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > I am currently working on repainting a 1979 Catalina 22 that needed  a lot of > glass work.  As I wet sanded the hull between coats of paint for the > umpteenth time my thoughts were on what it would be like to have a  metal > boat.  Specifically the difference between a  steel boat and an  aluminum > one.  I hear everyone say what a wonderful easy material steel is  for > building a boat, especially with today's modern paints, then I  think about > how much I hate painting!  It's been said that steel boats rust out  from the > inside, so that means you also need to do as good a job painting  inside as > you do outside.  The finish isn't important but thorough coverage  is, and > there are LOTS of nooks and crannies to deal with, as well as  painting in > dark corners and over your head.  Then there is the prep work,  grinding and > sandblasting both inside and out.  In a few years the outside needs  to be > painted again, and I would guess after 10 to 20 years the inside  will need > work too, only now it is covered up by everything you put inside  the boat. > Finally while a steel boat is cheaper to build, older steel boats  seem to > sell for very little money. >  > A boat can be built from aluminum that is equally as strong as a  steel boat, > by making every thing thicker, yet it will still be 50% or more  lighter. > When you are building it all the pieces are much easier to handle  because > they are so much lighter.  Welding aluminum out of position (  vertical or > overhead ) is easier than welding steel. When you are done welding  and > grinding, you are done with the finish, inside and out, except for  bottom > paint.  Electrolysis can be a problem but there appear to be lots  of ways to > deal with that problem.  It appears that when you finally decide to  sell the > boat aluminum boats bring a premium price, even more than an  equivalent > fiberglass boat, so building the boat may have been quite a good  investment > if done well. >  > Okay so aluminum DOES cost considerably more than steel for the raw > materials but with all the above in mind why would you want to  spend lots of > hours and have a reduced return on your investment to own a steel  boat, > rather than an aluminum one?  I work with aluminum every day, it is  easily > my favorite material to work with.  So what am I missing here? >  > Gary H. Lucas |
241|228|2001-06-20 22:01:22|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Plasma cutting|Plasma Northwest in Seattle, (Don Regan, as I recall), and Everett  Steel, Everett WA are two more.  I like working with FarWest though,  and they cut for half the boat builders who don't cut their own all  the way from Bellingham to Crescent City.  Ask for Elaine  Brotherton.  Shipping really isn't that big a deal anyway.  However,  you can probably find plenty of others closer in TomCat.|
242|228|2001-06-20 22:06:03|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Thoughts on painting|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: That's my point, you can't use low end steel rigs for aluminum  (though I've been told that a push rig with an oversized Teflon liner  works sort of). I prefer a push-pull like a Cobramatic. |
243|228|2001-06-20 22:21:34|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Plasma cutting|We would log into their computer over the phone and upload our files  at the end of the day.  The next afternoon (or maybe the day after)  we would get a truckload of plate.  A lot of yacht designers doing CNC don't have the best (most  productive) software, etc. or aren't even doing their own work, so  it's very expensive.  In the latter case, the whole boat has to be  redrawn from scratch, so it's really costly.  The trick is to find  someone who:  1) Really knows metal boatbuilding.  2) Does both the design and the CNC in house in one continuous  process.  3) Uses one of the major shipyard software packages like  ShipConstructor, AutoShip Builder, FORAN, TRIBON, etc. not just a  hull fairing package and bare bones CAD.   (If you go to  www.albacoreresearch.com you will see what I mean by productive  packages.)|
244|228|2001-06-21 01:27:53|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Thoughts on painting|Thanks, Gary, for your thoughts on painting steel:   > > there are LOTS of nooks and crannies to deal with, as well as > painting in > > dark corners and over your head.  Then there is the prep work, > grinding and > > sandblasting both inside and out.   I think the main thing with Brent's frameless boats is that there are vastly less nooks and crannies to deal with when compared to framed boats with their myriad transverse frames. The inside photos shown in the "Austin Hull" photo file show a very clean and bare interior, with the green primer already in place, needing no expensive and messy sandblasting - just clean up and prime the few welds (remember, there are less welds in an origami boat). Framed boats would offer a very different picture.  I admit it is very attractive to not have to do any painting inside an aluminum boat. But I too have seen the insides of some very mature steel boats (again, properly built, properly maintained), and have been very impressed by their condition.  With wheel-abraded pre-primed plate, there is no need to do expensive sandblasting inside and out.  That primer is stuck some good! The issue of sandblasting is often cited when comparing cost-wise to aluminum. With pre-primed plate, however, that cost can now be factored "out' of the equation, likely bringing steel out ahead in cost. It is commonly available in Canada, but I don't know about elsewhere. (Americans, just come up to Canada to build your boats, I'll lend you my back yard!)  Aluminum, however, is a really neat material, and I am going to be using it for my outboard skiff without hesitation.  For bigger boats, it can be wonderful too, though the welding needs good quality control for proper strength.  Vulnerable stress points have to be religiously avoided to prevent fatigue damage (not that you can ignore this with steel, but to a lesser degree). This is critical for the high-speed aluminum powerboats built out here on the coast. Done right, aluminum is perfect for such craft, which get the tar pounded out of them on a daily basis. Certainly if the powerboats can be properly designed/engineered/constructed for severe service, then the same can be done for sailboats.  But initial and over all cost outlay is a big factor in many people's minds, so steel often comes into play once again.  The aluminum vs steel question is going to be ongoing, because both materials have aspects worth considering, and both have drawbacks, all moderated by each given situation. I'd say the best thing to do is draw up a list showing the pros and cons of each material as they apply to your resources, abilities and available work space, then see which wins out. Each person's list will be slightly different, depending on what tools and space they have access to, and how big their initial budget is.  The ability to build steel Swain boats in the open is a big plus for a lot of people on this coast, who are building right in their side or back yards in the middle of cities, and would never be allowed by city authorities to build a large shop first, even a temporary one.  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
245|245|2001-06-21 01:35:26|Alex & Kim Christie|push-pull?|Sorry, need some education for me and the group on what Push and Pull mean here!  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: <cdbarry@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Thoughts on painting   > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > That's my point, you can't use low end steel rigs for aluminum > (though I've been told that a push rig with an oversized Teflon liner > works sort of). I prefer a push-pull like a Cobramatic. > |
246|228|2001-06-21 04:32:28|Richard Payne|Re: Thoughts on painting|Gary, go with the material you feel most comfortable with. My steel yacht has been in the water 14 yrs and is still on the original paint. Once each year I go aboard with a 12cfm compressor, a needle gun and a handheld grit blaster and touch up any rust spots. In between times I just cover new chips with 5 minute Araldite, or rusty bits with lanocote grease.   Inside, any rust gets the grease treatment. Eventually I needle gun it, wire brush it ( the brush on a small angle grinder) , rinse it liberally with fresh water (most important) and then when dry coat it with fishoil, or sometimes with half fishoil and half silver paint. When thoroughly dry, it gets coated with one of the rubberized tars that they use to waterproof shower enclosures with. This lasts for years.  I guess if anything rusts through you can weld in a new piece easily and retain original strength.  Rust usually looks worse than it is, and if you design your interior so that you can see most of the inside of the hull through lockers, slatted linings etc. you can keep on top of it.  I would be much more scared of electrolysis in an alloy hull, which can be rapid and deadly! Regards, Richard.|
247|245|2001-06-21 07:59:59|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: push-pull?|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Sorry, need some education for me and the group on what Push and   Pull mean  > here! >  > Alex Christie  GMAW (MIG) guns feed wire into the weld instead of using stick  electrodes.  The wire can be mounted on a spool on the gun or in a  separate box connected to the gun by a hose which also carries  shielding gas and current (and maybe cooling water).  If its  separate, the spool can be larger, the gun lighter and smaller.  To  feed the wire down the hose, you have motorized drive wheels that  pinch the wire.  You can have the wheels at the box end (push) or the  gun end (pull - though this is rare) or both ends.  Rigs intended for  steel are often push - it's cheaper and results in the lightest  possible gun.  Aluminum is softer than steel and push rigs tend to  jam, or even if they don't they feed at an iregular speed which  changes the arc length and hence its characteristics, especially the  type of metal transfer through the arc which is very important.   There is a lot of other stuff related to selecting GMAW equipment as  well, especially the characterististics of the power supply (CC, CV,  Pulse, etc.) that can be researched on the web.  A very good source for all things welding is  www.lincolnelectric.com.  The education section has numerous books,  training materials, videos, etc. at ridiculously low prices.|
248|245|2001-06-21 08:09:34|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: push-pull?|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Sorry, need some education for me and the group on what Push and   Pull mean  > here! >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator)   Push rig http://www.lincolnelectric.com/products/wprod/powermig255.asp   Push-pull rig http://www.lincolnelectric.com/products/wprod/recpk98/300cobr.asp|
249|249|2001-06-21 09:09:16|pvanderw@optonline.net|For purposes of comparison...|For those of you doing comparison of origami vs. standard  construction, and of steel vs. aluminium, there is some interesting  info about an aluminium Van de Stat 34 here:  http://www.green-witch.50megs.com/  This boat has been under construction for about 2 years and is still  mostly an empty hull. There are a lot of the builder's opinions, to  which you may feel free to disagree. Mr. Swain's friend could have  built his boat and sailed to Australia and back in the same time.  There is a 1986 steel version of the boat for sale in Florida for  about $30,000.  Peter|
250|228|2001-06-21 11:56:26|Doug Barnard|Re: Thoughts on painting|> -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Payne [mailto:nekeyah@...]  >  Rust usually looks worse than it is, and if you design your interior so > that you can see most of the inside of the hull through lockers, slatted > linings etc. you can keep on top of it.   So your boat has an un-insulated hull? You don't get major condensation that wrecks the insides of those lockers?|
251|228|2001-06-21 15:50:42|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Thoughts on painting|An uninsulated hull is only an option in warm climates. People who  tried that here in BC found that it often rained hard with  condensation inside when it was clear and sunny outside.They produced  many gallons of water per day while  living aboard in the winter.  During cold spells the entire inside of the hull ,with the exception  of a three foot circle over the stove , was coated with a half inch  layer of ice for weeks on end.Everything which came in contact with  the hull became saturated in an hour or two , then froze solid when  it got cold.    Sheet foam insulation kept the boat warm, but condensation behind  the foam was runing like a river despite any attempts to build a  vapor barrier.    Fibreglass insulation became a soggy mass in a day or two despite  any attempts at a vapour barrier.   With sprayfoam , the inside of the boat was as warm and dry  as any  appartment building. The salt from the salt shaker poured easily and  stuff in lockers stayed dry.There was only one exception. If there  was a piece of steel the size of your fingernail poking through the  foam , it wiould drip like a leaky faucet ,with condensation. For  this reason, when you have your boat foamed , it's best not to let  the foamer leave until you've checked the boat several times for  missed spots. It's also not a good idea to trim the foam flush with  the beams and stringers.   If the hull has been given at least  three or more coats of epoxy  tar before foaming, it's good for life.If it' hasn't been properly  painted, it may last a vey long time, or it may rust out fairly  quickly regardless of conditions during the foaming.There seems to be  no  logic as to which it will do.                                          Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: >  >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Payne [mailto:nekeyah@c...] >  > >  Rust usually looks worse than it is, and if you design your  interior so > > that you can see most of the inside of the hull through lockers,  slatted > > linings etc. you can keep on top of it. >  > So your boat has an un-insulated hull? You don't get major  condensation that > wrecks the insides of those lockers? |
252|252|2001-06-22 05:06:16|Richard Payne|Re: Boat building texts.|  I found <i>Boatbuilding With Steel</i> by the late Gilbert Klingel extremely good. It was my "bible" when I built Nekeyah.  Published by International Marine Publishing Company, Camden, Maine. 1973 Hopefully it is still in print in a later edition. Don't get too excited about cheap hulls - it is the fitting out that costs the big dollars. Regards, Richard.|
253|252|2001-06-22 20:26:26|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Boat building texts.|What percentage of the total the hull represents depends on how good  a scrounger you are . The advantage of steel is that stainless cleats  and many other fittings can be built from scrap for a tiny fraction  of what they cost new. When the metal work is done, you have your  hatches , cleats . chainplates, anchors, bowroller, self steering,  etc, etc, all stuff you have to buy for other kinds of boats.    My 31 footer cost $4,000 to launch and $6,000 to get sailing and  living aboard.I did my scrounging well in advance.                                  Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > I found Boatbuilding With Steel by the late Gilbert Klingel  extremely > good. It was my "bible" when I built Nekeyah.  Published by > International Marine Publishing Company, Camden, Maine. 1973  Hopefully > it is still in print in a later edition. > Don't get too excited about cheap hulls - it is the fitting out that > costs the big dollars. > Regards, > Richard. |
254|228|2001-06-23 06:02:21|Richard Payne|Re: Thoughts on painting|When I built Nekeyah I glued that white koolite stuff about 25 mm thick onto the hull and deck inside except around the stove, here I used a more fire retardant version. We are near Sydney Australia so our climate is not that cold (no frosts where I live!! ).  I have no transverse frames except for the floors, and have used tubular longitudinals. The only places I have had corrosion inside has been the water traps at the lowest parts of my longitudinals. I now have bits of cloth glued into the low spots and hanging down into the bilge to act as wicks to draw any moisture from these low spots. My advice is to get rid of any water traps and your internal corrosion problems will be minimized, no matter how much condensation you experience. Regards, Richard.|
255|255|2001-06-25 16:16:07|John Callahan|Hull material ?'s|Boat's I've built in the past were of either carbon steel, ASTM A36,  or Corten construction and a skiff or two of Aliminum, 5052, I've  been wondering about building using 304 ASTM A240 stainless steel. I  think the ideal stainless would be 316L for salt water aplication but  the cost would be prohibitive. I think the chloride stress corrosion  problem associated w/ 304 can be circumvented with the proper  application of paint. My question would then be.. What thickness of  304 stainless steel would equal, say, 3/16" ASTM A36 carbon steel,  What physical properties do you look at to make the comparison,  Hardness, Tensile strength's, Elasticity, all of the above?. For example, Ultimate tensile strength of 304 is about 1/3 greater  than that of A36, Does this mean I could use 1/3 less material  thickness? The weight savings, 5.04 lbs/sq ft vice 7.66 lbs/sq ft using the a  3/16" vs 11 GA. as an example. Does this come close to  the lbs/sq ft  of a fiberglass hull?    John|
256|255|2001-06-25 17:38:50|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Hull material ?'s|I remember reading a story about  a frenchman who has done a lot of  cruising ,who  built a boat out of stainless and said it was a big  mistake. He had lots of electrolysis and welds cracking everywhere.     If you have to protect it with paint, then what's the point.Any  304 I've used below the waterline has had major corrosion problems.  I've had no problems with 316.    As long as you use stainless trim on all the corners where paint  can be chipped off , above the waterline ,don't over detail , and  paint the boat properly in the first place, a steel boat can be  extremely low mainteanance . I average an hour or two out of every  year and less than $50 on maintenance, and my boat is 17 years  old .Except for a few chips here and there, the original paint is as  good as the day I put it on.                                             Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > Boat's I've built in the past were of either carbon steel, ASTM  A36,  > or Corten construction and a skiff or two of Aliminum, 5052, I've  > been wondering about building using 304 ASTM A240 stainless steel.  I  > think the ideal stainless would be 316L for salt water aplication  but  > the cost would be prohibitive. I think the chloride stress  corrosion  > problem associated w/ 304 can be circumvented with the proper  > application of paint. My question would then be.. What thickness of  > 304 stainless steel would equal, say, 3/16" ASTM A36 carbon steel,  > What physical properties do you look at to make the comparison,  > Hardness, Tensile strength's, Elasticity, all of the above?. > For example, Ultimate tensile strength of 304 is about 1/3 greater  > than that of A36, Does this mean I could use 1/3 less material  > thickness? > The weight savings, 5.04 lbs/sq ft vice 7.66 lbs/sq ft using the a  > 3/16" vs 11 GA. as an example. Does this come close to  the lbs/sq  ft  > of a fiberglass hull?  >  >  > John |
257|257|2001-06-26 17:26:41|Norm Facey|spray foaming inside a steel hull|          <em><font size="2">    I agree totally on spray foaming inside  a steel hull - makes an incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too -  BUT - if it gets thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my  case, the hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate, and  now you have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray  foam.</font></em> <em><font size="2"></font></em>  <em><font size="2">        Areas I'm  still pondering are:</font></em> <em><font size="2">        - the bilge  between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel - last boat was foamed in this  area, so condensation was not an issue - but it was most definitely not smooth,  so water would puddle without draining. Do I leave an unfoamed water way to  provide drainage through to the keel sump, or not? How do I get a clear flowing  drainage path if I do foam?</font></em> <em><font size="2"></font></em>  <em><font size="2">    - the anchor chain locker - here the  foam was crushed to a significant degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas  where it was thin (over top of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming  all over - but how do you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the  heavy, mobile weight of the chain clear of the hull?</font></em> <em><font size="2"></font></em>  <em><font size="2">    - beneath the motor - paint, foam &  paint again? (to seal foam from diesel fuel/motor oil).</font></em> <em><font size="2"></font></em>  <em><font size="2">                     Norm</font></em>|
258|249|2001-06-26 17:50:13|Gary H. Lucas|Re: For purposes of comparison...|This boat was discussed quite a bit on the Metal Boats Forum.  I took a look at the construction pictures, there sure are LOTS of little pieces!  One of the possible reasons it is taking so long is that Tony insisted on Tig welding the hull.  He also didn't believe some of us that suggested that his 250 amp machine was way to small for something of this size.  I wouldn't be surprised if he had lots of trouble with warping because of the small welding machine.  If the machine is too small you will not be able to travel very fast and most of your heat will be absorbed by the surrounding metal, which will expand and cause warping.  Like steel you always want to weld with the least amount of heat input, which means traveling fast.  I also found the pictures of his efforts to insulate the hull with rigid foam interesting.  It appears he is only insulating between the frames, not over them.  If you think a steel boat sweats where there is any exposed metal, imagine what aluminum with its MUCH higher thermal conductivity will do!  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message ----- From: <pvanderw@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 9:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] For purposes of comparison...   > > For those of you doing comparison of origami vs. standard > construction, and of steel vs. aluminium, there is some interesting > info about an aluminium Van de Stat 34 here: > > http://www.green-witch.50megs.com/ > > This boat has been under construction for about 2 years and is still > mostly an empty hull. There are a lot of the builder's opinions, to > which you may feel free to disagree. Mr. Swain's friend could have > built his boat and sailed to Australia and back in the same time. > > There is a 1986 steel version of the boat for sale in Florida for > about $30,000. > > Peter > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
259|252|2001-06-26 17:56:50|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Boat building texts.|Brent, I believe you mentioned here somewhere about installing a floor in your boat to increase the stiffness of the hull in the area where the keels are attached.  I looked at all the construction pictures in the archives and when I looked at the pictures of keel installations I was a little surprise at how little reinforcing there was in the area of the keels.  Have there been problems with flexing in the keel area?  I am very sensitive to this issue, because I once owned a 1976 Hunter 27 which nearly had the keel fall off.  Hunter 27s from 75 to about 78 had a basic engineering design flaw that weakened the hull in the keel area by a huge amount.  I repaired it properly but it was a huge job.  Gary H. Lucas  ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Boat building texts.   > What percentage of the total the hull represents depends on how good > a scrounger you are . The advantage of steel is that stainless cleats > and many other fittings can be built from scrap for a tiny fraction > of what they cost new. When the metal work is done, you have your > hatches , cleats . chainplates, anchors, bowroller, self steering, > etc, etc, all stuff you have to buy for other kinds of boats. >    My 31 footer cost $4,000 to launch and $6,000 to get sailing and > living aboard.I did my scrounging well in advance. >                                  Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > I found Boatbuilding With Steel by the late Gilbert Klingel > extremely > > good. It was my "bible" when I built Nekeyah.  Published by > > International Marine Publishing Company, Camden, Maine. 1973 > Hopefully > > it is still in print in a later edition. > > Don't get too excited about cheap hulls - it is the fitting out that > > costs the big dollars. > > Regards, > > Richard. > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
260|260|2001-06-26 20:57:20|Norm Facey|S.Stl as a hull material|          <em><font size="2">    Seems to me sub waterline corrosion due  to differential oxygen concentration is the reason you do not use S.Stl as  pilings, or to build boat hulls. Per my wife (who's the metalurgical  specialist), it's all sensitivity to chloride corrosion. Either way, the  conclusion is the same - stainless steel is a bad material choice for building a  hull - even a reasonably prepped mild steel hull will out last  it.</font></em>|
261|260|2001-06-27 10:52:34|John Callahan|Re: S.Stl as a hull material|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> wrote:  >     Seems to me sub waterline corrosion due to differential oxygen   concentration is the reason you do not use S.Stl as pilings, or to  build boat hulls. Per my wife (who's the metalurgical specialist),  it's all sensitivity to chloride corrosion. Either way, the  conclusion is the same - stainless steel is a bad material choice for  building a hull - even a reasonably prepped mild steel hull will out  last it.   Don't ask me how many years ago it was but I seem to remember an  article in one of the Sailing rag's about a Stainless steel sailboat.  I think it was called the "British Steel". I've searched for current  information on this boat but can't come up with anything. Maby it was  my imagination.  Stainless steel is used in ship construction. 316L (L for low carbon) is the choice material for this purpose but is twice the price of  regular 304. 304L is also a good choice for salt water use but its  close to the price of 316L. I arn't an engineer, but i'm thinking,  perhaps since ss is less ductile than mild steel it's more apt to  crack at stress points. Maby a mild steel hull w/ a 304 ss deck? Less weight topside, better corrosion resistance, It would still have  to be painted and maintained but you wouldn't get a rust streak every  time you scratched or chipped the deck.  John|
262|257|2001-06-27 15:57:06|John Olson|Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull|I originally sprayfoamed right down to the centreline on my twin-keeler.  It was suggested to me by the foaming company that I glass over the foam in the bilge to stop water penetration.  I did this, and then painted over with a urethane-based intumenscent paint.  After about 10 years, I found that the foam was saturated with water, but only about 4-5" up the side from the bottom of the bilge.  It appeared to be starting where things like anchors, etc, had punctured the glass and the foam.  I scraped out the foam to about 12" up from the centreline.  The 3 coats of high-build epoxy under the foam were in perfect condition.  I added 3 more coats of coal tar epoxy on the bilge area and up over the exposed edge of the foam and there's been no problem since.  Cheers  John   ----- Original Message ----- > > Message: 1 >    Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:55:44 -0400 >    From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@...> > Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull > >     I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull - makes an incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if it gets thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my case, the hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate, and now you have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray foam. > >         Areas I'm still pondering are: >         - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel - last boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue - but it was most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without draining. Do I leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the keel sump, or not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam? > >     - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a significant degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin (over top of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over - but how do you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy, mobile weight of the chain clear of the hull? > >     - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal foam from diesel fuel/motor oil). > >                     Norm |
263|257|2001-06-28 08:39:30|John Callahan|Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull|In chain lockers, under the auxiliary and Lazerette's I've covered  lagging and insulation with stainless steel sheet. Make cardboard  template's, carefully marking where bends are required, transfer  template to sheet metal, cut bend, fit, etc. They can be secured with  cres banding, sheetmetal screws, pop-rivets, or adhesive. Also makes  for a sharp locking locker.   John           --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Olson" <John.Olson@t...> wrote: > I originally sprayfoamed right down to the centreline on my twin- keeler.  It > was suggested to me by the foaming company that I glass over the  foam in the > bilge to stop water penetration.  I did this, and then painted over  with a > urethane-based intumenscent paint.  After about 10 years, I found  that the > foam was saturated with water, but only about 4-5" up the side from  the > bottom of the bilge.  It appeared to be starting where things like  anchors, > etc, had punctured the glass and the foam.  I scraped out the foam  to about > 12" up from the centreline.  The 3 coats of high-build epoxy under  the foam > were in perfect condition.  I added 3 more coats of coal tar epoxy  on the > bilge area and up over the exposed edge of the foam and there's  been no > problem since. >  > Cheers >  > John >  > ----- Original Message ----- > > > Message: 1 > >    Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:55:44 -0400 > >    From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> > > Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull > > > >     I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull - makes  an > incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if it  gets > thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my  case, the > hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate,  and now you > have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray  foam. > > > >         Areas I'm still pondering are: > >         - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and keel  - last > boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue -  but it was > most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without draining.  Do I > leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the keel  sump, or > not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam? > > > >     - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a  significant > degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin  (over top > of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over - but  how do > you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy,  mobile > weight of the chain clear of the hull? > > > >     - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal  foam from > diesel fuel/motor oil). > > > >                     Norm |
264|255|2001-06-28 13:21:57|Doug Barnard|Your book|Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book!  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard                   Virtual Acreage http://virtualacreage.com       818-991-9328 >|
265|255|2001-06-28 15:51:00|Doug Barnard|Re: Your book|Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore!   > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@...] > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard                   Virtual Acreage > http://virtualacreage.com       818-991-9328 > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
266|257|2001-06-28 16:36:59|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: spray foaming inside a steel hull|Chain lockers tend to be high enough in the hull to allow any water  to drain out of, or away from the foam. This is not the case in the  bilge area or under the engine. In such places , it's only a matter  of time beforwe water and ,or oil inevitably finds it's way into the  foam regardless of what you cover it with. Given that it's such a  small area compared with the rest of the boat , it's best to avoid  foam there altogether as the problems with foaming these areas far  outweigh the advantages of doing so.    Once foamed, you have no way of knowing what's happening behind  everything until major dammage has resulted.    Insulating the floor above the bilges can drastically reduce the  amount of condensation in the bilge, as can throwing down a piece of  carpet for the cold seasons.                                         Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote: > In chain lockers, under the auxiliary and Lazerette's I've covered  > lagging and insulation with stainless steel sheet. Make cardboard  > template's, carefully marking where bends are required, transfer  > template to sheet metal, cut bend, fit, etc. They can be secured  with  > cres banding, sheetmetal screws, pop-rivets, or adhesive. Also  makes  > for a sharp locking locker. >  >  > John >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Olson" <John.Olson@t...> wrote: > > I originally sprayfoamed right down to the centreline on my twin- > keeler.  It > > was suggested to me by the foaming company that I glass over the  > foam in the > > bilge to stop water penetration.  I did this, and then painted  over  > with a > > urethane-based intumenscent paint.  After about 10 years, I found  > that the > > foam was saturated with water, but only about 4-5" up the side  from  > the > > bottom of the bilge.  It appeared to be starting where things  like  > anchors, > > etc, had punctured the glass and the foam.  I scraped out the  foam  > to about > > 12" up from the centreline.  The 3 coats of high-build epoxy  under  > the foam > > were in perfect condition.  I added 3 more coats of coal tar  epoxy  > on the > > bilge area and up over the exposed edge of the foam and there's  > been no > > problem since. > >  > > Cheers > >  > > John > >  > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > Message: 1 > > >    Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:55:44 -0400 > > >    From: "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> > > > Subject: spray foaming inside a steel hull > > > > > >     I agree totally on spray foaming inside a steel hull -  makes  > an > > incredible difference - and hangs on very tightly too - BUT - if  it  > gets > > thin (less than 1/4 ") in an area that is routinely wet (in my  > case, the > > hull bilge where it attached to the keel), water will penetrate,  > and now you > > have a mess on your hands. Paint the interior first, then spray  > foam. > > > > > >         Areas I'm still pondering are: > > >         - the bilge between the bow (read anchor locker) and  keel  > - last > > boat was foamed in this area, so condensation was not an issue -  > but it was > > most definitely not smooth, so water would puddle without  draining.  > Do I > > leave an unfoamed water way to provide drainage through to the  keel  > sump, or > > not? How do I get a clear flowing drainage path if I do foam? > > > > > >     - the anchor chain locker - here the foam was crushed to a  > significant > > degree by the anchor chain, primarily in areas where it was thin  > (over top > > of a stringer or frame). I like the idea of foaming all over -  but  > how do > > you protect the foam, maintain drainage, and support the heavy,  > mobile > > weight of the chain clear of the hull? > > > > > >     - beneath the motor - paint, foam & paint again? (to seal  > foam from > > diesel fuel/motor oil). > > > > > >                     Norm |
267|260|2001-06-28 21:30:23|yah02840@yahoo.com|Re: S.Stl as a hull material|--- In origamiboats@y..., "John Callahan" <ajcalla@y...> wrote:  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Norm Facey" <facey_n@e...> wrote: > >     Seems to me sub waterline corrosion due to differential   oxygen   > concentration is the reason you do not use S.Stl as pilings, or to  > build boat hulls. Per my wife (who's the metalurgical specialist),  > it's all sensitivity to chloride corrosion. Either way, the  > conclusion is the same - stainless steel is a bad material choice   for   > building a hull - even a reasonably prepped mild steel hull will   out   > last it. >  >  >  British Steel is built with Mild Steel. Sponsored by the British  Steel company.   Don't ask me how many years ago it was but I seem to remember an   > article in one of the Sailing rag's about a Stainless steel   sailboat.   > I think it was called the "British Steel". I've searched for   current   > information on this boat but can't come up with anything. Maby it   was   > my imagination.  >    Iit is common practice in France to use Stainless Steel for decks and  to use a liberal amount of it for detailing. Bow chocks, cleats,  tracks. etc..An approach as far the hull is concerned is to use 304  or 316 SS extrusions or flat bars for longitudinals and framing.   Stainless steel is used in ship construction. 316L (L for low carbon)  > is the choice material for this purpose but is twice the price of  > regular 304. 304L is also a good choice for salt water use but its  > close to the price of 316L. I arn't an engineer, but i'm thinking,  > perhaps since ss is less ductile than mild steel it's more apt to  > crack at stress points. Maby a mild steel hull w/ a 304 ss deck? > Less weight topside, better corrosion resistance, It would still   have   > to be painted and maintained but you wouldn't get a rust streak   every   > time you scratched or chipped the deck. >  > John |
268|260|2001-06-30 03:34:53|Richard Payne|Re: S.Stl as a hull material|Have you thought of metal spraying?  i.e. grit blast and then use a gun to plaster the whole lot with coats of melted aluminum and zinc. I made all of my rails and stanchions from mild steel and had them treated this way and it has been 100% successful. This is a pretty established and time tested process.   I wish I had had the money to do the entire hull, inside and out!   Having said the above, I still think that corrosion on a properly protected steel boat is a very minor concern, much much less than the problems you would have with crevice corrosion, weld decay and heat distortion with a stainless one. The thing would be an absolute nightmare!  It would also be an "orphan" and difficult to sell when the time came. Remember, amateur boat builders tend to be individualists, a very special breed of people, but  most of the rest of the population flock toward the sheep end of the spectrum and shy away from anything too different. Regardless of how you feel now, you will one day want to sell your creation and this becomes an important factor. Regards, Richard.|
269|255|2001-07-04 15:51:58|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Your book|Doug    Your book is in the mail. Canada post aint too swift, like the  political hacks who run it.                                            Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Doug Barnard                   Virtual Acreage > > http://virtualacreage.com       818-991-9328 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > |
270|260|2001-07-04 16:08:20|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: S.Stl as a hull material|A friend bought a metal spraying gun at a garage sale for $60. The  owner thought it was a paint sprayer. He then boght the whole outfit ,  flow meters, guages , hoses etc for $300 used,   The aluminum wire he bought was quite cheap, but the oxy acetylene  wasn't . He was still able to do the job, tools , materials and all  included ,for a fraction of the price of hiring someone to do it , and  he still had the equipment to sell at the end of it .He was told the  US military was dumping all their equipment and going for the electric  guns. That equipment probably ended up in a scrapyard for a dollar a  pound .   A group of boatbuilders in Victoria once chipped in and bought the  equipment ,and did their own boats for a fraction of the cost of  having it done, then sold the equipment.   The resulting job worked extremely well.   I once flame sprayed a boat. I found it very important to keep the  gun clean. The spray started out very fine and the steel was barely  warmed. As the tiny holes in the gun alongside the wire gradually  filled up, the spray began to splatter, and the steel got hotter.It  also didn't stick as well. It was time to take the gun apart and clean   out the tiny holes. When that was done, the spray was again as fine as  fine sandpaper, and the steel stoppped warming up.    For a first class job, the gun should be cleaned frequently.    I've seen the results of military tests on flame spraying ,and the  aluminium spray was far superior to zinc. Aluminium costs more per  pound, but at a fraction the weight of zinc, covers a lot more surface  per pound at a given thickness. Aluminium woud probably take more oxy  acetylene .                                               Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > Have you thought of metal spraying?  i.e. grit blast and then use a  gun > to plaster the whole lot with coats of melted aluminum and zinc. I  made > all of my rails and stanchions from mild steel and had them treated  this > way and it has been 100% successful. This is a pretty established  and > time tested process. >   I wish I had had the money to do the entire hull, inside and out! >   Having said the above, I still think that corrosion on a properly > protected steel boat is a very minor concern, much much less than  the > problems you would have with crevice corrosion, weld decay and heat > distortion with a stainless one. The thing would be an absolute > nightmare! >  It would also be an "orphan" and difficult to sell when the time  came. > Remember, amateur boat builders tend to be individualists, a very > special breed of people, but  most of the rest of the population  flock > toward the sheep end of the spectrum and shy away from anything too > different. Regardless of how you feel now, you will one day want to  sell > your creation and this becomes an important factor. > Regards, > Richard. |
271|255|2001-07-04 16:46:10|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Your book|Brent, I also ordered your book about three weeks ago.  Is mine in the mail as well?  Gary H. Lucas  ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Your book   > Doug >    Your book is in the mail. Canada post aint too swift, like the > political hacks who run it. >                                            Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > > > > > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your book! > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > Doug Barnard                   Virtual Acreage > > > http://virtualacreage.com       818-991-9328 > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
272|255|2001-07-06 22:43:03|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Your book|Yes. It's in the mail.   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > I also ordered your book about three weeks ago.  Is mine in the mail  as > well? >  > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2001 3:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Your book >  >  > > Doug > >    Your book is in the mail. Canada post aint too swift, like the > > political hacks who run it. > >                                            Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > > Whoops! Sorry about the wrong address... Please ignore! > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Doug Barnard [mailto:dbarnard@v...] > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:21 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Your book > > > > > > > > > > > > Got my check yet? My wife and I are just dying to read your  book! > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > > Doug Barnard                   Virtual Acreage > > > > http://virtualacreage.com       818-991-9328 > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > > |
273|273|2001-07-14 10:49:19|Gary H. Lucas|Brents Book|I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished reading it by 11:30 pm.  It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take that as comment on the content.  It has lots of good ideas on how to build your own boat inexpensively.  I was little disappointed though in how little information there was on the actual design of an origami hull.  I suppose this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would have been very interesting to me.  I may never actually build my own boat, but I'm very interested in the process of how the design comes about.  I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three boats.  I am assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living off the proceeds from a $20 book!  If that's the case then Brent needs to sharpen his sales skills a little.  It would have been real nice to have plans prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address and ordering information for getting the plans.  Gary H. Lucas|
274|274|2001-07-15 13:38:04|Doug Barnard|spray foam fires?|> National Fisherman did an article about a year ago relating to the fire > dangers of spray- in foam. Most of this is polyurethane and once > it catches > on fire it is nearly impossible to put out.  It is still being > used but the > Coast Guard is looking seriously at not allowing it on inspected vessels. > It may be worth looking at more fire resistant alternatives. Fire is still > one of the leading causes of death among the Alaskan fishing fleet.   Thanks for the tip! An excellent cite- do you happen to know the issue date? I'd like to pick up a back copy and spread the word around.  In a brief search, I found that the Flexible Products Co. (makers of "Great Stuff" canned spray foam, available in hardware stores) makes a product called "Froth-Pak" that is fire retardant. A quote from the web page:  "Question: Is the Froth-Pak fire-retardant?  Answer: The 25FS version of the Froth-Pak (available in the 180 and larger kits) is considered to be fire retardant. It will burn if exposed to open flame, but it is self-extinguishing when the source is removed."  I guess that wood or fabric could fall into that category, as well. I can see that loose wiring could rub and short itself, and when in direct contact with the foam, start a fire that way. I was planning on running standard plastic conduit, and foaming that into place.  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
275|274|2001-07-16 06:39:20|Richard Payne|Re: spray foam fires?|Check out the products of combustion of foams. I know that some generate highly toxic gases, and that even a small fire can therefore be extremely dangerous.  Regards, Richard Payne.|
276|274|2001-07-16 07:57:38|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: spray foam fires?|--- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote:  > Check out the products of combustion of foams. I know that some   generate  > highly toxic gases, and that even a small fire can therefore be > extremely dangerous. >  > Regards, > Richard Payne.   There is an extensive Coast Guard report on the subject that can be  found by searching the Coast Guard site, www.uscg.mil, probably under  marine safety and environmental protection.  Also look at the NVICs,  especially "Voluntary safety standards for fishing vessels" (probably  5-86).|
277|273|2001-07-16 21:26:27|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Brents Book|-Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for  the 40 $500.They can be ordered the same way as the book.    Designing an origami boat is done the same way as designing any  hard chine boat, then the plate shapes are taken from the drawing, or  off a model and an origami model is made. It can then be lofted full  size into the plate and construction begins.   I'm not much of a salesman or hustler, as long as my income matches  my outgo, I don't worry too much about the numbers in some banker's  computer.As I live aboard and keep cruising full time, I've never had  to pay moorage on my current boat, and my cost of living is tiny .I  support neither vehicle, nor ex's, nor booze nor nicotine, nor  offspring(don't have any that I'm aware of.)    Cruising can be cheap as long as you do it at sea rather than in  the bars.                                            Brent Swain  -- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote:  > I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished   reading it by  > 11:30 pm.  It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take   that as  > comment on the content.  It has lots of good ideas on how to build   your own  > boat inexpensively.  I was little disappointed though in how little > information there was on the actual design of an origami hull.  I   suppose  > this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would   have been  > very interesting to me.  I may never actually build my own boat,   but I'm  > very interested in the process of how the design comes about. >  > I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three   boats.  I am  > assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living   off the  > proceeds from a $20 book!  If that's the case then Brent needs to   sharpen  > his sales skills a little.  It would have been real nice to have   plans  > prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address   and  > ordering information for getting the plans. >  > Gary H. Lucas |
278|274|2001-07-16 21:39:32|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: spray foam fires?|A friend was doing a bit of welding on his 36 footer in Frisco Bay,  when the foam  caught fire. The entire aft end of the boat was gutted  and the loran was melted into plastic stalagmites and stalactites.  Despite the extreme heat , any place where the foam was painted with  cheap latex paint, it wouldn't burn. This wasn't the intumescent ,  fire retardant paint, just cheap hardware store latex paint.The fire  couldn't get enough oxygen through the paint to support combustion.    Even the fire resistant intumescent paint sold by pitsburg and  other manufacturers doesn't add up to a great expense in the greater  scheme of things.It's well worth while  painting the entire inside of  the boat after foaming and triming the foam, before puting the  interior in.    Intumescent paint foams up when heated to form a protective  insulating ,non combustible , carbon like foam which insulates the  foam from the flame . This material can be scraped off and re heated  several times before there isn't enough left to protect the foam from  an open flame.                                             Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > Check out the products of combustion of foams. I know that some  > generate > > highly toxic gases, and that even a small fire can therefore be > > extremely dangerous. > >  > > Regards, > > Richard Payne. >  > There is an extensive Coast Guard report on the subject that can be  > found by searching the Coast Guard site, www.uscg.mil, probably  under  > marine safety and environmental protection.  Also look at the  NVICs,  > especially "Voluntary safety standards for fishing vessels"  (probably  > 5-86). |
279|279|2001-07-17 12:02:21|Sigge Johansson|Origamo 45?|Hello Brent  Are 40 the upper limit for the Origami method? Or is it possible to build a 45-footer? With a rudder under the hull -- skeg supported? (so faar I've only seen pics on Origami boats with aft hung rudders) If Yes: What would the price tag on that plan package be?  Regards, sigge   ----- Original Message -----  From: <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 3:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book   > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for  > the 40 $500. |
280|280|2001-07-20 06:54:50|Shelley & Foster Price|Irony rope to chain splice|Hello Guys  I'm looking for the instuctions for the "Irony" rope to chain splice for three strand - this is the one where the rope goes down the chains links instead of round and being backspliced.  I know its in Brion Toss's book but there isn't a copy round here, it was also written up in "Practical Boat Owner" mag recently.  I know the basics of the splice but I need to know more about its properties and how to size the rope to chain.  Regards - Foster|
281|281|2001-07-23 13:35:07|Doug Barnard|Re: Waste Heat Recovery|> From: owner-trawler-world-list@... > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@...]On Behalf Of Alex Hirsekorn  > Waste heat is also routinely used for watermaking on large ships > (often with > an assist from excess vacuum). This link shows some systems built by Alfa > Laval that are too large for our purposes. Again, systems such as these > should be scaleable.   The above post, combined with a "what if" from Brent Swain's "How to Build a Better Steel Boat", gave me a bit of inspiration for a watermaker that uses waste heat. It requires a dry stack installation. I've uploaded a schematic to the TWL Attachment Archives (thanks Paul!):  http://www.whooppee.com/TWL/distiller.jpg  A float valve in the cool tank turns on a raw water pump when the level falls too low. The cool tank in connected to the hot tank by an open pipe, thus maintaining a constant water level between the two. As water is evaporated, it goes into the 1/2" copper line which is coiled in the cool tank, condensing it. The water jacket would also provide insulation from the heat of the exhaust stack as it passed through living spaces. Tank construction would be of scrap stainless steel.  Any commentary? Hey, maybe this could be turned into a moonshine still! :)  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
282|281|2001-07-24 12:51:49|Doug Barnard|Re: Waste Heat Recovery|> From: Michael Schooley [mailto:schooley@...]  > Looks like a nice simple design. I think you might be onto > something really > good. However no engineer can resist suggesting a few changes;   Lord save us from the engineers! :)   > 1	Add a brine bleed to the bottom of the hot tank, otherwise > the salinity > will increase until it reaches 100% and the still stops working.   Gotcha on that one.   > 2	To recover some of the heat from the brine before you dump > it overboard, > you could put the line from the cold tank to the hot tank inside the brine > bleed line. This makes it a reverse flow heat exchanger.   I was thinking that the pipe would be short, about an 1 1/2" in diameter. This would make the unit fairly compact. As the brine dump wouldn't happen continuously, would this really be worthwhile?   > 3	Make the hot tank and the exhaust pipe concentric pipes.   The drawing was purposely exaggerated to show the concept, but I was thinking of maybe an inch or so of clearance all 'round the exhaust pipe.   > 4	Use a platelet heat exchanger for the cold chamber and > condensation line > and reverse the flows.   <snip>   > even though > they cost more than scrap stainless, I think the compact size and > efficiency > be worth the cost.   Yikes! That little jewel looks expensive. I was thinking of a coil of 1/4" or 1/2" copper line inside the cool tank. You work for NASA? :)  Also, I'm not following this "reverse the flows" thing. That chart is nice, but how does the water flow? How would you get it to go backwards?  <snip>   > 5	Since you are using the hot chamber to shield the living > spaces from the > exhaust heat (I think this is a really good idea by the way!) you > don't want > to ever let the hot chamber run dry. However when the fresh water > tanks get > full, the water/steam has to have somewhere to go. Therefore, I suggest a > pressure relief valve at the top of the exhaust stack. The other > alternative > would be a pressure relief valve on the fresh water line, just > prior to the > storage tank, vented overboard, but that means another through hull.   That sounds good. Though I think that thing isn't going to work quite that well that I have to worry about all of the spare fresh water that I would have to get rid of!   > 6	Once you add a pressure relief valve to the hot chamber, > you might as well > match it to the operating pressure of the water system and eliminate the > fresh water pump. All you need is a check valve and a pressure > accumulator.   I don't think that there will be that much pressure! If so, I would want to relieve it immediately.   > 7	Since you will have hot water half-way through the > condenser, add a tap in > the middle to feed the hot water tank. This would mean a custom plate heat > exchanger, unless you use two in series and take the hat water before the > second heat exchanger.   Uh oh, too complex! Too many parts! :)   > 8	Since you will have pressurized steam on board, feed it to > one of those > cool sounding steam whistles like the old tug boats used to have and > activate it with a pull chain in the pilothouse.   I think that you're seeing "boiler" and I'm seeing "evaporator" in this design. As fine as it would be to come motoring into port, toot-tooting on my steam whistle, jaw thrust forward and chest swelling with manly pride, with this system, all I would get is a flaccid sigh. Trying to build pressure vessels is way beyond my level of expertise!  Thanks for the commentary!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
283|283|2001-07-24 18:56:41|winslow59@yahoo.com|MBS Festival|Are any of the OrigamiBoats members planning to attend the Metal Boat  Society Festival? Are any Swain/origami boats likely to be there and  available for viewing/inspection? http://www.metalboatsociety.com/festival.htm|
284|283|2001-07-26 20:22:58|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: MBS Festival|There are none of my boats going to the Metal Boat Festival that I'm  aware of . There possibly would be if it were in Oak Harbour as usual,  but they decided to have it near Portland, Oregon, a long way from  most of my boats, and many other boats from BC and Washington.                                    Brent Swain             --- In origamiboats@y..., winslow59@y... wrote: > Are any of the OrigamiBoats members planning to attend the Metal  Boat  > Society Festival? Are any Swain/origami boats likely to be there and  > available for viewing/inspection? > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/festival.htm |
285|281|2001-07-26 20:31:23|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Waste Heat Recovery|A friend tried this without much success. I believe his tank was too  big.There is a limit to how much water you can boil with a limited  amount of heat source.A vacuum pump would drastically lower the  boiling point. You would have to flush the salt out frequently.                                           Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: >  > > From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Alex Hirsekorn >  > > Waste heat is also routinely used for watermaking on large ships > > (often with > > an assist from excess vacuum). This link shows some systems built  by Alfa > > Laval that are too large for our purposes. Again, systems such as  these > > should be scaleable. >  > The above post, combined with a "what if" from Brent Swain's "How to  Build a > Better Steel Boat", gave me a bit of inspiration for a watermaker  that uses > waste heat. It requires a dry stack installation. I've uploaded a  schematic > to the TWL Attachment Archives (thanks Paul!): >  > http://www.whooppee.com/TWL/distiller.jpg >  > A float valve in the cool tank turns on a raw water pump when the  level > falls too low. The cool tank in connected to the hot tank by an open  pipe, > thus maintaining a constant water level between the two. As water is > evaporated, it goes into the 1/2" copper line which is coiled in the  cool > tank, condensing it. The water jacket would also provide insulation  from the > heat of the exhaust stack as it passed through living spaces. Tank > construction would be of scrap stainless steel. >  > Any commentary? Hey, maybe this could be turned into a moonshine  still! :) >  > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > "Fiesta Bimbo" > trawler-crawler wannabe |
286|279|2001-07-26 20:41:12|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Origamo 45?|The biggest boat I've designed(or have any interest in designing )  is the 40 footer. You can biuld any hard chine hull using the origami  techniques . You can take the plate shapes off the lines drawing by  computer, or make a model and take the plate shapes off the model.The  rest of the building proccess is the same.   The stringers can't be much heavier, or they'll have trouble  bending, but you can put in more of them, or stack them after the hull  is together, for added stiffness. In aluminium they can be bigger.   An inboard rudder makes the self steering and inside steering  options fragile, expensive , and extremely complex. There is no way  the rudder can be made as strong and reliable as it is with a transom  hung rudder.                                  Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...> wrote: > Hello Brent >  > Are 40 the upper limit for the Origami method? Or is it possible to  build a 45-footer? With a rudder under the hull -- skeg supported? (so  faar I've only seen pics on Origami boats with aft hung rudders) > If Yes: What would the price tag on that plan package be? >  > Regards, sigge >  > ----- Original Message -----  > From: <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 3:26 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book >  >  > > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and  for  > > the 40 $500. |
287|287|2001-07-29 17:57:20|stephenw@telus.net|Non-origami boats allowed?|Greetings,  I have just purchased a Roberts 35 sailboat hull, deck and cabin.   Right now it's just a big empty tin can, still in red primer.  It will  be an engineless boat with a schooner junk rig.  I am dealing with  junk rig issues on the junkrig list.  I have lots questions relating to finishing this boat.  Also questions  related to sourcing new or used things like galvanized portholes and  an anchor winch, and design for building a self steering for spade  rudder/tiller.  I am also interested in information on strengthening  the boat to accept unstayed cedar masts.  Any advice will be greatly appreciated.  Stephen Wandling Vancouver, BC|
288|287|2001-07-29 20:06:51|neilhuget@cs.com|Re: Non-origami boats allowed?|Hi,  www.boatbuilding.com is all you need to know  also, www.sailnet.com...read all the articles by "sue and larry", they home  built a 34 junk rigged boat, sister ship to annie hill's Badger|
289|283|2001-07-30 19:04:41|Gary H. Lucas|Re: MBS Festival|I would have liked to attend this affair, I didn't hear about it until too late to change my travel plans.  I flew from NJ into Seattle on Thursday, then to Yakima and back home again on Saturday.  It would have been nice stay for a few more days and get something more out of the $1674 the customer spent on my airfare!  Gary H. Lucas  ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: MBS Festival   > There are none of my boats going to the Metal Boat Festival that I'm > aware of . There possibly would be if it were in Oak Harbour as usual, > but they decided to have it near Portland, Oregon, a long way from > most of my boats, and many other boats from BC and Washington. >                                    Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., winslow59@y... wrote: > > Are any of the OrigamiBoats members planning to attend the Metal > Boat > > Society Festival? Are any Swain/origami boats likely to be there and > > available for viewing/inspection? > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/festival.htm > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
290|273|2001-07-30 19:10:08|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Brents Book|Brent, A little self promotion would never be considered to be hustling.  The world DOESN'T beat a path to your door even you have the greatest thing the world has ever seen. You still have to put up signs to guide people, and that is all I was suggesting.  So what is included in your plans set?  I am considering buying a set to further my education, as it seems unlikely I'll ever get around  to actually building my own boat.  I do however go sailing frequently so all is not lost.  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message ----- From: <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book   > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for > the 40 $500.They can be ordered the same way as the book. >    Designing an origami boat is done the same way as designing any > hard chine boat, then the plate shapes are taken from the drawing, or > off a model and an origami model is made. It can then be lofted full > size into the plate and construction begins. >   I'm not much of a salesman or hustler, as long as my income matches > my outgo, I don't worry too much about the numbers in some banker's > computer.As I live aboard and keep cruising full time, I've never had > to pay moorage on my current boat, and my cost of living is tiny .I > support neither vehicle, nor ex's, nor booze nor nicotine, nor > offspring(don't have any that I'm aware of.) >    Cruising can be cheap as long as you do it at sea rather than in > the bars. >                                            Brent Swain > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished > reading it by > > 11:30 pm.  It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't take > that as > > comment on the content.  It has lots of good ideas on how to build > your own > > boat inexpensively.  I was little disappointed though in how little > > information there was on the actual design of an origami hull.  I > suppose > > this is what you would call proprietary information, but it would > have been > > very interesting to me.  I may never actually build my own boat, > but I'm > > very interested in the process of how the design comes about. > > > > I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three > boats.  I am > > assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't living > off the > > proceeds from a $20 book!  If that's the case then Brent needs to > sharpen > > his sales skills a little.  It would have been real nice to have > plans > > prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an address > and > > ordering information for getting the plans. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
291|273|2001-07-31 19:10:15|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Brents Book|Plans include the basic shell(hull,deck, rudder, skeg , keel ),  mast,rigging, sails, tankage, hatches,hatch hinges , deck layout  ,interior layouts, detail drawings (hatches, self steering, bow  roller, rudder fittings , chainplates , mooring bitts , cleats ,  handrails,ballast,exhaust, keelcooler,mast support, tabernacle   etc.The book has drawings for the roller furling, anchor winch , self  steering, engine mounts running pole fittings ,jibsheet  leads,dinghy,chine doubler plates, sheerlegs,mast support,tabernacle,  bow roller, head, etc.                                            Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Brent, > A little self promotion would never be considered to be hustling.   The world > DOESN'T beat a path to your door even you have the greatest thing  the world > has ever seen. You still have to put up signs to guide people, and  that is > all I was suggesting. >  > So what is included in your plans set?  I am considering buying a  set to > further my education, as it seems unlikely I'll ever get around  to  actually > building my own boat.  I do however go sailing frequently so all is  not > lost. >  > Gary H. Lucas >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 9:26 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brents Book >  >  > > -Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and  for > > the 40 $500.They can be ordered the same way as the book. > >    Designing an origami boat is done the same way as designing any > > hard chine boat, then the plate shapes are taken from the drawing,  or > > off a model and an origami model is made. It can then be lofted  full > > size into the plate and construction begins. > >   I'm not much of a salesman or hustler, as long as my income  matches > > my outgo, I don't worry too much about the numbers in some  banker's > > computer.As I live aboard and keep cruising full time, I've never  had > > to pay moorage on my current boat, and my cost of living is tiny  .I > > support neither vehicle, nor ex's, nor booze nor nicotine, nor > > offspring(don't have any that I'm aware of.) > >    Cruising can be cheap as long as you do it at sea rather than  in > > the bars. > >                                            Brent Swain > > > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > > > I got Brent's book in the mail on Thursday afternoon, finished > > reading it by > > > 11:30 pm.  It's an easy read, and I read pretty fast so, don't  take > > that as > > > comment on the content.  It has lots of good ideas on how to  build > > your own > > > boat inexpensively.  I was little disappointed though in how  little > > > information there was on the actual design of an origami hull.   I > > suppose > > > this is what you would call proprietary information, but it  would > > have been > > > very interesting to me.  I may never actually build my own boat, > > but I'm > > > very interested in the process of how the design comes about. > > > > > > I note that in the back there are drawings and specs for three > > boats.  I am > > > assuming that Brent sells plans for these boats, and isn't  living > > off the > > > proceeds from a $20 book!  If that's the case then Brent needs  to > > sharpen > > > his sales skills a little.  It would have been real nice to have > > plans > > > prices, a list of what is included with the plans, and an  address > > and > > > ordering information for getting the plans. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > > |
292|292|2001-08-02 11:13:44|Patrick|Free Steel|Hi all, I have a bunch of steel for anyone that might want it for  free. It was formed for some kind of shoring for some really big  ditches, thats all I can find out about it. A few of the pieces are  35 feet long but most are in the 10 foot range. It is all 3/8ths inch  thick. Jut as a wild guess I would say there is 50,000 pounds plus of  this stuff. If anyone wants it, it's free for the taking but you will  need a crane or very large forklift and a flatbed semi with a 40 foot  trailer. Just let me know. The price is right anyway.|
293|13|2001-08-02 12:28:13|Patrick|Brents book|I know its probably here somewhere but I need the url to order the  book.  TIA|
294|292|2001-08-02 14:04:09|Doug Barnard|Re: Free Steel|Where you located?  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe   > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick [mailto:pfolk@...] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:13 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Free Steel > > > Hi all, I have a bunch of steel for anyone that might want it for > free. It was formed for some kind of shoring for some really big > ditches, thats all I can find out about it. A few of the pieces are > 35 feet long but most are in the 10 foot range. It is all 3/8ths inch > thick. Jut as a wild guess I would say there is 50,000 pounds plus of > this stuff. If anyone wants it, it's free for the taking but you will > need a crane or very large forklift and a flatbed semi with a 40 foot > trailer. Just let me know. The price is right anyway. > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
295|292|2001-08-02 14:18:07|Pat Folk|Re: Free Steel|          I am in Stockton CA...the central valley and not  far from Sacramento  Where    you located?___________________________Doug Barnardrebuilding    a 20' Skipjack"Fiesta Bimbo"trawler-crawler  wannabe  |
296|13|2001-08-02 16:53:10|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Brents book|Patrick No internet ordering or credit card orders as far as I know.  Brent's book is available by mail from him directly:  To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 for postage to:  Suite #427  1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick" <pfolk@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brents book   > I know its probably here somewhere but I need the url to order the > book. > > TIA > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
297|297|2001-08-04 01:10:05|Alex & Kim Christie|36 foot bare Swain hull for sale in Nanaimo|          For anyone looking for a bare hull to get a head  start on their project, I just spotted this ad in the Vancouver Island "Buy,  Sell and Trade" publication: -------------------------------------------------------- 36' Brent Swain designed hull and deck -  steel.   All metal work can be finished  onsite. She lays  in Nanaimo and is available to view. Steel was   mill-abraded/primed. $13,000 (CDN) (250) 714-2422 (Nanaimo, BC) --------------------------------------------------------- I called the number and enquired further about it,  reaching the father of the owner.  This single-keel bare hull has cockpit,  pilothouse, decks and coachroof on, but is not yet ballasted.  Rudder has  been built and is ready to hang. Stringers to be installed still.  Evan  Shaler has performed the work on it to date, and estimated another 200 hours  welding work left to go.  The people are selling it for $1000 less than  what it cost to build to present stage. I think it is a pretty good deal  for anyone who wants to bypass the time and labour aspect on such a  project.   The fellow who commisioned it has been laid up with  an injury in Portland Oregon, and cannot complete the vessel.  The above  number will get you his father, Franz, who lives aboard in Nanaimo, and appears  to be handling the sale of the hull for his son.   Just a phone number for contact at present, until  Franz contacts his son for e-mail address.  I may go buy and take some  digital snaps when I can, and will post to files.     International enquiries can e-mail me if they like,  and I can pass on messages to Franz's cellphone, as I am in the same  province, just one hour north.   Alex Christie (moderator)  |
298|298|2001-08-11 15:41:10|Stephen Wandling|Coatings in Vancouver|I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about overly thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope to avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you have any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or recommend against, please let me know.  I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane foaming companies.  Stephen|
299|298|2001-08-13 14:02:29|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Coatings in Vancouver|Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming.                                               Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about  overly > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope  to > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you  have > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or  recommend > against, please let me know. >  > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane > foaming companies. >  > Stephen |
300|300|2001-08-13 14:07:10|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Book postage Rates |I've found that air mail of my books to Europe , New Zealand and  Australia is around $10. Surface mail is around $5 . When ordering it  could you please specify if you want it sent air or surface and  include adequate postage.                                          Brent Swain|
301|301|2001-08-14 12:59:40|Stephen Wandling|Shrinking plating|  Brent, Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat that is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red hot with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in cold water?  I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the bulge and tacking it to the frames when it's in position.  Do you have an opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you have to get the steel temperature right.  In other words, does it need to be 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc.  I am also told that you only get one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave the steel in an annealed state? Cheers, Stephen brentswain38@... wrote:    Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming.                                               Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about overly > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope to > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you have > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or recommend > against, please let me know. > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane > foaming companies. > > Stephen   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
302|301|2001-08-16 16:07:39|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Shrinking plating|You're right , you only get one shot at it. If it doesn't move   enough, you can always try the flat bar method.The flat bar method is  probably a lot easier. I wouldn't worry about anealing, as heating  and quenching does the same thing each time, so the steel remains the  same.The point is you aren't going to accomplish anything by doing it  more than once.    When you heat the metal it wants to expand, but being surrounded  by metal, it can't , so the molecules are squashed closer together.  When you quench it, they contract further than they would have  otherwise.                                            Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Brent, >  > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. >  > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat  that > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red  hot > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in  cold > water?  I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the  bulge > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position.  Do you have an > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? >  > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you  have to > get the steel temperature right.  In other words, does it need to be > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc.  I am also told that you only  get > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave  the > steel in an annealed state? >  > Cheers, >  > Stephen >  > brentswain38@h... wrote: >  > >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > >                                               Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > overly > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I  hope > > > > to > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you > > have > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > recommend > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on  urethane > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. |
303|301|2001-08-16 16:08:40|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Shrinking plating|Hotter the better, short of meltdown.                                          Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Brent, >  > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. >  > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat  that > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red  hot > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in  cold > water?  I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the  bulge > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position.  Do you have an > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? >  > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you  have to > get the steel temperature right.  In other words, does it need to be > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc.  I am also told that you only  get > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave  the > steel in an annealed state? >  > Cheers, >  > Stephen >  > brentswain38@h... wrote: >  > >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > >                                               Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > overly > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I  hope > > > > to > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you > > have > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > recommend > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on  urethane > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. |
304|301|2001-08-16 20:13:04|Stephen Wandling|Re: Shrinking plating|  I was doing fine until we got to the "short of meltdown" part!  And how does one know when one is approaching this critical point?  Are there colour stages you go through, for example? Stephen brentswain38@... wrote:  Hotter the better, short of meltdown.                                          Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Brent, > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat that > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red hot > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in cold > water?  I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the bulge > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position.  Do you have an > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you have to > get the steel temperature right.  In other words, does it need to be > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc.  I am also told that you only get > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave the > steel in an annealed state? > > Cheers, > > Stephen > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > >                                               Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > overly > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I hope > > > > to > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you > > have > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > recommend > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on urethane > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
305|301|2001-08-16 21:14:15|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Shrinking plating|Stephen, Unlike aluminum which goes from shiny to GONE! almost in the blink of an eye, steel is very forgiving in this respect.  You heat it and it gets redder and redder until it starts getting white hot before it finally starts to slump.  I wouldn't worry too much about overheating.  If you decide to use an oxyacetylene torch get yourself a rosebud tip and a LARGE bottle of acetylene.  You don't need the large bottle because of the amount of gas required, you need it because acetylene is dissolved in acetone in the bottle and the rate you can draw off is limited by the surface are of the liquid in the bottle.  An indication that your bottle is too small is when the torch starts popping like fire crackers.  What is happening is you are drawing off acetone vapors that explode when they reach the flame.  This can be very dangerous because you often get a blowback into the torch where the flame is burning down inside the torch.  If you don't turn off the torch immediately it will melt down in your hands!  The amount of heat an oxyacetylene torch with a large rosebud tip can put out is absolutely amazing to see, something around 500,000 BTUs in a flame about 1" in diameter!  This is important because this bending method works best when you can heat a very small area to a high temperature very quickly.  The slower you heat the bigger the area that gets hot and the less bending you get. Hope this helps.  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating   > I was doing fine until we got to the "short of meltdown" part!  And how > does one know when one is approaching this critical point?  Are there > colour stages you go through, for example? > > Stephen > > brentswain38@... wrote: > > > Hotter the better, short of meltdown. > >                                          Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > Brent, > > > > > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. > > > > > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat > > that > > > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > > > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red > > hot > > > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in > > cold > > > water?  I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the > > bulge > > > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position.  Do you have an > > > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? > > > > > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you > > have to > > > get the steel temperature right.  In other words, does it need to be > > > > > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc.  I am also told that you only > > get > > > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave > > the > > > steel in an annealed state? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > > > > >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > > > >                                               Brent Swain > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > > > overly > > > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I > > hope > > > > > > > > to > > > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you > > > > > > have > > > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > > > recommend > > > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on > > urethane > > > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > |
306|301|2001-08-17 00:03:49|Stephen Wandling|Re: Shrinking plating|  Gary, Phew!  I'm pleased to learn of steel's forgiving nature.  I gather both from Brent and yourself that a lot of heat is needed.  I had initially been told that a 'tiger torch' burning straight propane would suffice.  The sections I will be heating will be about 20" x 20" and the plate is 1/8".  Right now, I don't own an oxyacetylene torch set, but could easily arrange for one.  There are only about a half a dozen 'dents' that need to be dealt with. Thanks for the advice. Stephen Wandling "Gary H. Lucas" wrote:  Stephen, Unlike aluminum which goes from shiny to GONE! almost in the blink of an eye, steel is very forgiving in this respect.  You heat it and it gets redder and redder until it starts getting white hot before it finally starts to slump.  I wouldn't worry too much about overheating.  If you decide to use an oxyacetylene torch get yourself a rosebud tip and a LARGE bottle of acetylene.  You don't need the large bottle because of the amount of gas required, you need it because acetylene is dissolved in acetone in the bottle and the rate you can draw off is limited by the surface are of the liquid in the bottle.  An indication that your bottle is too small is when the torch starts popping like fire crackers.  What is happening is you are drawing off acetone vapors that explode when they reach the flame.  This can be very dangerous because you often get a blowback into the torch where the flame is burning down inside the torch.  If you don't turn off the torch immediately it will melt down in your hands!  The amount of heat an oxyacetylene torch with a large rosebud tip can put out is absolutely amazing to see, something around 500,000 BTUs in a flame about 1" in diameter!  This is important because this bending method works best when you can heat a very small area to a high temperature very quickly.  The slower you heat the bigger the area that gets hot and the less bending you get. Hope this helps. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating   > I was doing fine until we got to the "short of meltdown" part!  And how > does one know when one is approaching this critical point?  Are there > colour stages you go through, for example? > > Stephen > > brentswain38@... wrote: > > > Hotter the better, short of meltdown. > >                                          Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > Brent, > > > > > > Thanks for the sprayfoaming reference below. > > > > > > What is your opinion on fairing the plating on a non origami boat > > that > > > is bulging (in usually) because of the welding to frames and > > > longitudinals surrounding it, by heating the plate at the bulge red > > hot > > > with a tiger torch and quenching it with a mat of towels soaked in > > cold > > > water?  I recall you had suggested jacking out a bar placed at the > > bulge > > > and tacking it to the frames when it's in position.  Do you have an > > > opinion on the pros and cons of these methods? > > > > > > Some info I have received re the heat/quench method is that you > > have to > > > get the steel temperature right.  In other words, does it need to be > > > > > 'almost' red hot, or cherry red, etc.  I am also told that you only > > get > > > one chance with this method and attempting to do it again can leave > > the > > > steel in an annealed state? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > brentswain38@h... wrote: > > > > > > >   Dave Johnston of Tasman Industries does excellent sprayfoaming. > > > >                                               Brent Swain > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > > > I have heard some horror stories, here in Vancouver, BC, about > > > > overly > > > > > thinned epoxy that has to be redone in a couple of years, and I > > hope > > > > > > > > to > > > > > avoid practitioners that do less than satisfactory work.  If you > > > > > > have > > > > > any sandblasting/epoxy companies that you can recommend, or > > > > recommend > > > > > against, please let me know. > > > > > > > > > > I am also interested in getting the same type of info on > > urethane > > > > > foaming companies. > > > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
307|301|2001-08-17 03:57:28|Richard Payne|Re: Shrinking plating|I don't like welding shell plating to transverse framing, especially above the waterline where distortion shows. Have you tried removing the problem weld with an angle grinder before heat shrinking?  Regards, Richard Payne.|
308|301|2001-08-17 09:12:06|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Shrinking plating|This general technique is called "line heating" and is well  established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but  for producing curvature in the first place.  Four passes on one line  is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce  prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less  effective, not because it's damaging.  Line heating is approved by  ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would  encounter.   A concentrated heat is used and water quench is  generally applied in the immediate area.  A cutting tip with the  cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool.|
309|301|2001-08-17 11:41:08|Stephen Wandling|Re: Shrinking plating|  You bring up an interesting point.  This is a Roberts designed hull and therefore it has transverse framing and longitudinal bars.  I did not build this hull and didn't receive any 'manual' regarding how the construction details were to proceed.  It would appear, since the longitudinals are 'floating' in slots in the transverse frames, that the longitudinals were intended to be pushed out and tacked to the plate.  I am unclear whether the longitudinal is then supposed to be welded to the transverse framing after being fastened to the plate.  It does appear that the longitudinals are only meant to be tacked to the plate and not continuos welded (or maybe the welding hasn't been completed). As I am only just starting this work, I will have to take a careful look at the boat later today, but I believe that the plate isn't welded to the transverse frames in the area adjacent to the bulges, but only tacked to the longitudinals, with the longitudinals 'floating' in the slotted transverse frames slots.  Almost all of these 'bulge' areas are forward and generally seem to be 'created' by the close proximity of the adjacent chine welds, which incorporate a chine bar which may add to the problem as it has significant welding. Would your recommendation be for me to cut all welds from the transverse frames to the plating, with the exception of at the chines?  I recall that Brent Swain's experience is that more damage occurs at the transverse frame and chine bar areas when a steel boat experiences a grounding. I will contact Bruce Roberts and get confirmation on the intended welding pattern for the transverse and longitudinal framing. Thank you for your comments. Stephen Wandling Richard Payne wrote:  I don't like welding shell plating to transverse framing, especially above the waterline where distortion shows. Have you tried removing the problem weld with an angle grinder before heat shrinking? Regards, Richard Payne.   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
310|301|2001-08-17 11:47:35|Stephen Wandling|Re: Shrinking plating|  Am I correct in assuming that 'induced prestress' might be achieved by jacking out the longitudinal and the plate in the area of the bulge?  Would it then be appropriate to use line heating while the stress is in place?  In lieu of a cutting torch, in your opinion would a 'tiger torch' fired by propane be an adequate tool for heating areas up to 20" x 20"? Thanks for the info. Stephen Wandling cdbarry@... wrote:  This general technique is called "line heating" and is well established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but for producing curvature in the first place.  Four passes on one line is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less effective, not because it's damaging.  Line heating is approved by ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would encounter.   A concentrated heat is used and water quench is generally applied in the immediate area.  A cutting tip with the cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool.   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
311|301|2001-08-17 14:10:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Shrinking plating|Stephen, CDBarry's recommendation of a cutting torch with the oxygen off makes much sense that what I suggested.  I was thinking your hull plating was much thicker.  But the reason a cutting torch is used is because the preheat flames, which are all you have without the oxygen jet, are VERY concentrated on a small area and very hot.  This is ideal because the less metal you actually heat to bright red, and the more the area around it stays cool the better the metal bends.  Any torch which does not use pure oxygen for combustion will produce lots of BTUs but in a much larger area.  Think Sledge hammer versus ball peen hammer.  Experiments are being done using lasers to bend complex shapes by rapidly heating very small areas and some of the results I have seen pictures of are really amazing.  Gary H. Lucas  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating   > Am I correct in assuming that 'induced prestress' might be achieved by > jacking out the longitudinal and the plate in the area of the bulge? > Would it then be appropriate to use line heating while the stress is in > place?  In lieu of a cutting torch, in your opinion would a 'tiger > torch' fired by propane be an adequate tool for heating areas up to 20" > x 20"? > > Thanks for the info. > > Stephen Wandling > > cdbarry@... wrote: > > > This general technique is called "line heating" and is well > > established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion, but > > for producing curvature in the first place.  Four passes on one line > > is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce > > prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less > > effective, not because it's damaging.  Line heating is approved by > > ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would > > encounter.   A concentrated heat is used and water quench is > > generally applied in the immediate area.  A cutting tip with the > > cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > |
312|301|2001-08-17 20:32:39|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Shrinking plating|Longitudinals are normally welded for about 2 inches every 6 inches.  Fully welding them would create an enormous amount of distortion.   Not tacking transverse frames to shell plating and leaving the  longitudinals  to float off the transverse frames when the  longitudinal chine welds shrink, greatly reduces distortion.Welding  heavy metal, like chine bars ,to light plate always causes distortion.  Designing chine bars into a steel boat doubles the amount of welding  and  is a bad idea. Doubler plates inside the chine are a far better  way to make the chine reefproof, without the distortion ,and such  doubler plates are only needed amidships on single keel boats.   Forceing the longitudinals out of the transverse frames with wedges  may cure a lot of distortion.                                             Brent Swain                                          --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Stephen, > CDBarry's recommendation of a cutting torch with the oxygen off  makes much > sense that what I suggested.  I was thinking your hull plating was  much > thicker.  But the reason a cutting torch is used is because the  preheat > flames, which are all you have without the oxygen jet, are VERY  concentrated > on a small area and very hot.  This is ideal because the less metal  you > actually heat to bright red, and the more the area around it stays  cool the > better the metal bends.  Any torch which does not use pure oxygen  for > combustion will produce lots of BTUs but in a much larger area.   Think > Sledge hammer versus ball peen hammer.  Experiments are being done  using > lasers to bend complex shapes by rapidly heating very small areas  and some > of the results I have seen pictures of are really amazing. >  > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Wandling" <stephenw@t...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:45 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Shrinking plating >  >  > > Am I correct in assuming that 'induced prestress' might be  achieved by > > jacking out the longitudinal and the plate in the area of the  bulge? > > Would it then be appropriate to use line heating while the stress  is in > > place?  In lieu of a cutting torch, in your opinion would a 'tiger > > torch' fired by propane be an adequate tool for heating areas up  to 20" > > x 20"? > > > > Thanks for the info. > > > > Stephen Wandling > > > > cdbarry@h... wrote: > > > > > This general technique is called "line heating" and is well > > > established in shipbuilding, not only for removing distortion,  but > > > for producing curvature in the first place.  Four passes on one  line > > > is the limit for producing continued movement unless you induce > > > prestress in the plate, but that is only because it becomes less > > > effective, not because it's damaging.  Line heating is approved  by > > > ABS, etc. for most shipbuilding steels any home builder would > > > encounter.   A concentrated heat is used and water quench is > > > generally applied in the immediate area.  A cutting tip with the > > > cutting oxygen turned off is the approved tool. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > |
313|313|2001-08-18 15:07:36|Stephen Wandling|Transverse & Longitudinal framing|What are the prime purposes served by transverse (TF) and longitudinal framing (LF) in a hard chine boat?  The Roberts I am working on has 2" x 3/16" bar for transverse frames and 1" x 3/16" bar for longitudinals, with 1/8" plating.  I am trying to get my head around how this is all supposed to work together.  It is my understanding that in Brent's boats you only have longitudinal framing and only in the middle 2/3 or 3/4 of the boat?  I gather that is to support and/or strengthen the curved sections?  But, don't you have transverse framing in the cambered cabin top?  The TF in my boat is not welded to the plating at all.  It is welded to the chine bars and is tacked to the LF that sets in slots.  The LF is tacked to the plating, while the chine bars are welded continuously.  I should say that the LF is 'supposed' to be tacked to the plating.  In fact it isn't in many areas, such as around bulges in the plating. After removing the bulges, should I bring the LF into contact with the plate and tack it?  Also, at the first frame aft of the bow, the LF are well out of their slots in the TF.  Should I weld in tabs to make this connection?  Another concern is that the LF bars are not all straight, and in fact many 'snake' their way through the boat in many areas.  My limited engineering understanding tells me that they don't have any of the required strength if they aren't straight.  It would be a messy job to cut all of the welds to the plating and shorten these LF members, but if it's absolutely necessary then I will have to do this.  Some time you have to wonder at the 'bargain' one buys.  Stephen Wandling|
314|301|2001-08-19 05:00:49|Richard Payne|Re: Shrinking plating|I agree with Brent that you should space out your longitudinals with wedges and then let them pull in with the welding.   Chines do not necessarily mean distortion though. Nekeyah is triple chined with chine tubes. To fit the chines to the frames, offsets were plotted on the ground and  marked by pegs. The tubes were then run through a rolling machine which I made and which cold rolled the necessary bend into them.   Each panel was plated in two lengths of plate. Once they were accurately fitted to the chines, some scraps of flat bar were lightly tacked on edge to the chines outside the plates. The butt welding was then done and the plates were allowed the necessarily shrinkage movement. Only after this were the plates tacked onto the chines. All outside welding was completed first to pull a bit of an outward bow into the plates. Welding was staggered , max. 3 inches at a time. This worked well and our hull is pretty fair with no filler needed at all.  When the hull was complete, I removed all of the transverse frames ( keeping the floors and bulkheads ) as the designer confirmed that they are more for ease of construction than structural strength, and provide places where you can't paint properly and thus rust traps.   It was all a lot easier than it sounds, just time consuming.  Regards, Richard.|
315|315|2001-08-19 21:50:15|WIJNANDA69@HOTMAIL.COM|scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and  was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for  suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The names/locations of  places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used  sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,  Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps.  Thanks|
316|315|2001-08-20 11:14:12|Doug Barnard|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|Well, this isn't near Sacto, but in So. Cal, a great place to check out is Walt's RV in Fontana (out near San Bernardino). They're a surplus/used parts dealer for RV parts. They have good deals on stoves, and thousands of used windows. I got my surplus windows for my current boat, dual pane sliders about 30" X 20", for $35 each.  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe   > -----Original Message----- > From: WIJNANDA69@... [mailto:WIJNANDA69@...] > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 6:50 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs > > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The names/locations of > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used > sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps.  Thanks > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
317|317|2001-08-20 11:14:39|Doug Barnard|finding building locations|Any tips as to how to scrounge up a suitable location for a bit of shipbuilding? I'd like rent to be as cheap as possible (free?), so going with realtors or agents would preclude that. Weather isn't all that much of a factor, so an open stretch of field would be just fine. Obviously you can't ring the doorbell of a house that isn't there- how do you locate the owners?  I'm also thinking about attaching wheels to the hull (temporarily, of course!) so that if I have to beat a hasty retreat, it won't be that much of a problem. Sometimes a "handshake" deal can suddenly go sour. There must be some sort of farm equipment thing that would do; any idea as to what a set of four wheels, with two steerable is called? Skeletal trailer? Hay hauler?  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
318|315|2001-08-20 14:26:49|Pat Folk|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|          I posted earlier that I have a bunch of free steel  if you want that. email me privately if your interested in it. But it will take  a flatbed to haul it and a crane or large forklift to load it.  I    will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area and was    wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for suitable    parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The names/locations of places where    I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used sails and stoves for    cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, Boeing surplus) as we    all know every little bit helps.   Thanks  |
319|319|2001-08-22 01:56:49|Stephen Wandling|Sequencing|I am trying to work out some sequencing issues that appear to be important to me.  Several involve dealing with spaces that will be enclosed when the sandblasting/coating is done.  The first involves the integral water tanks.  These are intended to be built of mild steel and be cement wash coated on the inside.  The tank bottom areas of the hull are presently covered with a mild rust.  Can I just build the tanks on the rusty hull, cement coat them and consider that there will be no further corrosion because the surface will not be in contact with air?  The other area is the fin keel.  Can I assume the same thing here:  That placing the ballast (lead), either in a melted form or set in pitch or resin, will seal out the air?  Also there will be plates welded on top of the ballast area and I could add the oil as suggested by Brent Swain I believe.  There is already surface rust inside the fin keel.  There's lots of info out there, but some of these types of issues aren't dealt with.  Maybe I should just go on common sense, but it can't hurt to ask.  Cheers,  Stephen Wandling|
320|317|2001-08-23 07:38:25|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: finding building locations|This is not quite to the subject,but you may want to look at modular  construction and block outfitting.  The idea (aside from the fact  that modularization saves labor both in construction and outfit) is  that you could build each module in a smaller space, then just get  the big space to join up.|
321|317|2001-08-23 15:57:46|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: finding building locations|Modular construction doesn't work with origami construction as the  plates used are 8ft by 36 ft or larger.   One can do 1/3rd of the steel work in advance by building everything  which can be built before doing the hull ( cleats, habdrails ,  hatches, rudder, stanchions mast and fittings,bow roller,bilge pumps,  heater, thru hulls, valves, anchor winch, mast tabernacle, anchors ,  etc, scrounge ballast,wood, paint,sails,  rigging ,engine, etc. That  way once you get the shell together, it takes a fraction of the time  to finish the boat.It also reduces the burnout rate.                                          Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote: > This is not quite to the subject,but you may want to look at modular  > construction and block outfitting.  The idea (aside from the fact  > that modularization saves labor both in construction and outfit) is  > that you could build each module in a smaller space, then just get  > the big space to join up. |
322|322|2001-08-28 05:44:20|Ronald|Hallo all out there help needed|found this in the photo section...  Bella Via of Comox  44' double-ended steel Swain junk   double ended I'm looking for  why, well living in France but all my friend in Norway  and 44' should be as me 45 and my wife 44 exact the lenght we are looking for a oceangoing sailing home.......44 lod could be a nice low and fat and deep, means to me liveabord and sail  so where to go...to get a plan  as stell for me is the way to go building intelligent and not old fashioned whu not and junk sail....easy and singlehanded i like that  please help  Ronald|
323|322|2001-08-28 11:48:24|Stephen Wandling|Re: Hallo all out there help needed|  Ronald, You can contact Brent Swain at           brentswain38@...  and I am sure he will be able to give you all of the information you need about building one of his designs. Cheers, Stephen Wandling Ronald wrote:  found this in the photo section... Bella Via of Comox 44' double-ended steel Swain junk double ended I'm looking for why, well living in France but all my friend in Norway and 44' should be as me 45 and my wife 44 exact the lenght we are looking for a oceangoing sailing home.......44 lod could be a nice low and fat and deep, means to me liveabord and sail so where to go...to get a plan as stell for me is the way to go building intelligent and not old fashioned whu not and junk sail....easy and singlehanded i like that please help Ronald     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
324|322|2001-08-28 20:34:18|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Hallo all out there help needed|Try   jackaranda@...    The boat belongs to Jack Carson. He bought a bare hull 36 footer  and did some severe modifications. She is long and low, but narrow  and not particularly deep.                                              Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Ronald" <biese.ronald@w...> wrote: > found this in the photo section... >  > Bella Via of Comox  > 44' double-ended steel Swain junk  >  > double ended I'm looking for >  > why, well living in France > but all my friend in Norway >  > and 44' should be as me 45 and my wife 44 > exact the lenght we are looking for a oceangoing > sailing home.......44 lod could be a nice low > and fat and deep, means to me liveabord and sail >  > so where to go...to get a plan >  > as stell for me is the way to go > building intelligent and not old fashioned > whu not > and junk sail....easy and singlehanded i like that >  > please help >  > Ronald |
325|325|2001-09-08 22:09:34|brib@axion.net|interesting day |it's been a very interesting day reading the last 324 messages.  I have been attracted to the idea of searching out the apparent  freedom suggested by the single-handed sailing experiences of Joshua  Slocum.   I saw Brent Swain's boat construction on the website of the interior  builder whose ethics were earlier (albeit falsely) in question, while  fascinated by the metal boat building and Spray copies of Bruce  Roberts.   It wasn't until I found the magic look-up word, origami,  that I came upon this group.  The rough and ready product shown in  the photos of Brent's 31 footer, and the wilderness setting of the  construction of one of the boats, have me convinced that a budget  conscious builder has no real alternative to turn out a solid and  safe boat.   The spirit of Slocum is alive and well in the no nonsense, solidly  sensible approach to boats and sailing evinced by Brent Swain's  techniques and execution.  This is the closest thing I've seen to the  situation offered to Slocum when he was kicking about before  rebuilding the Spray.   I want to know if an apartment dweller such as myself can put  together a plan to build one of these boats. It looks like a game  plan detailing materials and tools, labour requirements, a  determination of cost to produce an enclosed hull with a three coat  tar epoxied, foam insulated, and latex painted interior within the  shortest period of time, is the first major hurdle.  I'll be sending  a check shortly for Brent's book.   I'm curious to know why Brent has settled on the 31 footer when so  many seem to think bigger is better.   Congratulations on a great  discussion group. Brian|
326|326|2001-09-09 12:38:22|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: interesting day|Hello Brian,  Welcome to the discussion and thanks for starting a new thread in the currently quiet halls of origamiboats group!  Well, your last question about size was an excellent one, and I'll respond with my reflections, gathered from conversations with Brent in the past since I have had very similar thoughts.  The going theme these days seems to be, "bigger is better", but in my view the closer your boat is to being a "ship", the more energy and money it will take to build and maintain, and the less independent the sailor is, thus negating the real reason for undertaking the project in the first place.  Slocum avoided the complication trap with Spray, which was considered at that time a "micro-ship" compared to the usual world-sailing boats of the time.  Whereas painting the hull of a 31 or 36 foot hull in an afternoon can be a relatively simple and sane (maybe even pleasurable?) process, the painting of  a 50 foot hull is a real "job" and much less of a casual affair.  Relating things to "human scale" helps keep things in perspective for me: According to Brent's and others' experiences, the 36 foot half-shell hull plates appear to be the upper limit that two people working together can rock back and forth and manouver into place by themselves.  Beyond this size, one is going to need specialized equipment suited to the task.  Some people may have suitable equipment, but most don't. I know that pulling the hull together is only a one-time thing, but one can use this as a frame of reference for future activities with the boat too, such as haul-outs, maintenance and handling the boat at dock or at sea.  I liked your comparison of what this boatbuilding process offers with Slocum's spirit.  I think that puts it all into a nutshell: build it, and go!  Alex  (moderator)|
327|325|2001-09-09 13:17:49|Doug Barnard|Re: interesting day|> -----Original Message----- > From: brib@... [mailto:brib@...]   <snip>   > I want to know if an apartment dweller such as myself can put > together a plan to build one of these boats. It looks like a game > plan detailing materials and tools, labour requirements, a > determination of cost to produce an enclosed hull with a three coat > tar epoxied, foam insulated, and latex painted interior within the > shortest period of time, is the first major hurdle.  I'll be sending > a check shortly for Brent's book.   Currently, the primary problem that I'm finding is the ability to locate a building site. The local homeowner's assn. is starting to give me grief over re-building a 20-footer, they'd for sure flip over a start-from-scratch project! The idea of getting halfway through and getting evicted has me scared, but I don't want to rent some huge, high-dollar commercial space to get this done. Being in the L.A. area doesn't help matters much, either.  Wheel-abraded pre-primed steel in So. Cal. is also a problem. You boys up in the Northwest have all the good suppliers!   > I'm curious to know why Brent has settled on the 31 footer when so > many seem to think bigger is better.   Congratulations on a great > discussion group. Brian   I'm looking to modify a traditional 48' full-displacement trawler design to origami methods. I've just finished a major design rev, and have made the otherwise all-business design into something more sexy and streamlined. I'm working the boat up in a 3D package- if anyone wants to comment, I have an .avi of a complete flyaround. Or I can send stills...  Be careful about being too time-conscious, as if you aren't totally into the process, you can make dreadful mistakes or burn out. Maybe start with the ship's dingy, to get your chops down? Brent talks about building sub-systems first, so that they can be attached to the hull when it's done.  Fortune favors the brave!  DB|
328|328|2001-09-09 15:10:24|brib@axion.net|picking up the thread|I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to  clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building  program  As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even  though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused  that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would  have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a  clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft. Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to  assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one out  could flesh out the problems with each step.  Buy the plans from Brent.  Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and  delivered to a building site. Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator. Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior Buy diesel engine.  Outfit inside and out.  The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until  finished needs to be dealt with at every stage.  I would like to  identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken ,  and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for  a  construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities at  a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland? The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job correctly,  and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind  of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc.   Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a  time  line for the project.  I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without  a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin  keels.  I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to be  welded.  What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature  and humidity sensitive.  How has this influenced the building  schedules in coastal BC?|
329|328|2001-09-09 15:50:40|Stephen Wandling|Re: picking up the thread|  I'm a construction Project Manager, so I understand your desire to have a plan before getting too far into a boat building project.  I am currently finishing a steel hull (not origami, unfortunately) and have put some effort into developing a plan.  I will insert my comments in your plan below: brib@... wrote:  I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building program As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft. Brent seems to have done a lot of his cruising as a singlehander.  Crew size will be a requirement for selecting a boat size. Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one out could flesh out the problems with each step. First I would recommend buying Brent's book, if you haven't already done so. Next might be site selection.  A very desirable feature is having 220VAC with 50 Amps to power the welder. Buy the plans from Brent. Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and delivered to a building site. You might move this down a few steps, after you get your tools and welder lined up. Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator. With 220VAC with 50 Amps to power the welder, you save a lot of bucks and noise without the generator. Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior I don't have pre-primed steel so I have to interject sandblasting here and will have the same crews do the epoxy coating at it needs to go on within about 4 hours of achieving bare steel.  It's recommended to put on one coat of your paint of choice over the last coat of epoxy, before the epoxy is completely cured.  (It can be done later.) After the epoxy coating you will affix firring strips and bulkheads for the attachment of the interior.  Then, it is common to have the hull insulated with urethane foam insulation. At this stage the boat is capable of sitting in the weather, either on land or in the water, for an indefinite period, if required. Buy diesel engine. I thought you were building a sailboat?!!?  Just joking.  I am one of those insane types that is building a boat without an engine.  You will need the engine's mounting specs to enable properly building the engine mounts and associated shaft alignment. Outfit inside and out. With the bulkheads and firring strips, the interior is pretty straight forward.  It's thinking ahead to all of the things that require cutting and welding in the hull, deck or cabin that have given me problems.  You basically want all welding and cutting complete before you apply the epoxy coating.  Like tanks, thru-hulls, portholes, cleats, stanchions, handrails, and the list goes on and on. The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until finished needs to be dealt with at every stage.  I would like to identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken , and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for  a construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities at a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland? My boat is now 'on the hard' in Richmond and I pay $150/month, but don't have access to 220VAC with 50 Amps to power the welder.  My understanding is that when building in a residential area, it is often difficult to get a permit for a 'boat shed' but apparently you can build a boat "in the open" with no permit, at least in some municipalities. The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job correctly, and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc. Most of these issues are well covered in Brent's book. Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a  time line for the project. I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin keels.  I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to be welded. It's in the book.  The simplicity of this method is the brilliance that Brent is bringing to the process of building steel boats. What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature and humidity sensitive.  How has this influenced the building schedules in coastal BC? There are temperature and humidity criteria for epoxy coating, but I am informed that this work proceeds year round in the lower mainland.  You might have to wait a bit if you get a cold spell. I will be watching this thread, because I still have issues that I haven't yet worked out. Good luck. Stephen |
330|330|2001-09-10 00:35:31|darryl_marlene@hotmail.com|Finishing hull #1 from CCBB|Hi everyone    I read with interest most of the letters today. I`m in Nanaimo working on my 36 foot pilothouse . I hope to foam it  Friday. If I can answer any questions on the benifits of having  Confidence Custom Boat Building build your boat let me know. They did a great job on mine. If youre in my area I`ll gladly give  you a boat tour.          Darryl|
331|328|2001-09-12 16:42:59|pvanderw@optonline.net|Re: picking up the thread|> As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world..   To get a feel for size, read the books by the Hiscocks and the  Pardeys. The Hiscocks finally went to a larger steel boat which they  had modified when 1/2 way around the world, as I remember.  There once was a general notion, perhaps because of the Hiscocks,  that the right size of boat for a couple was a little short of 30'. A  larger boat required too much strength to handle the sails and too  much maintenance. Equipment is better today on both accounts, but it  is still a point to ponder.  When you are getting down to a choice of a couple boats, ask the  designer(s) pointed questions about the load carrying capacity, and  do the math with rigorous honesty about what you expect to take and  what you need in terms of consumable supplies. Capacity is more  important that length, as a criterion.  Peter|
332|332|2001-09-13 23:41:45|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Size and other issues|First, length is not the only measure of size, and certainly not cost  or difficulty of construction.  Increased size can make construction  easier because spaces aren;t as tight.  Setting principle dimensions  is often the most difficult aspect of design and requires a great  deal of thought and analysis.  Commercial naval architects often do a  series of "point designs" systematically varying dimensions to settle  on the final parameters, but this decision is far and away the most  important one and not to be taken lightly.  Second, I can't say enough about the avantages of advanced/block  outfit.  Mr. Swain's notion of building systems complete prior to  hull construction is a good approach to this.  In fact it is possible  to build substantial parts of the interior prior to hull  construction, and then just load it in through the top of the steel  hull (this is called "blue sky advanced outfitting").  The late Dale  Calkins did a paper on advanced outfitting for small vessels that was  in Journal of Ship Production a few years ago and Oetter, Duffty,  Welter and myself published a paper at this year's Ship Production  Symposium on advanced outfitting whole panels prior to joining them.   Though this technique was based on developable panels, it should be  adaptable to origami panels as well, with a little thought.|
333|332|2001-09-14 14:03:58|Doug Barnard|Re: Size and other issues|> -----Original Message----- > From: cdbarry@... [mailto:cdbarry@...] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 6:08 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Size and other issues > > > First, length is not the only measure of size, and certainly not cost > or difficulty of construction.  Increased size can make construction > easier because spaces aren;t as tight.  Setting principle dimensions > is often the most difficult aspect of design and requires a great > deal of thought and analysis.  Commercial naval architects often do a > series of "point designs" systematically varying dimensions to settle > on the final parameters, but this decision is far and away the most > important one and not to be taken lightly.   One point that wasn't brought up is market value. Adding a few extra feet when building is no big deal, but it can add thousands to the value of the finished boat. An under-30-foot boat sounds like an oddity, but on boats closer to 40', it sounds like a wise choice. As you're designing, it's always wise to imagine what the next owner might desire, and adjust your own preferences accordingly.   > Second, I can't say enough about the avantages of advanced/block > outfit.  Mr. Swain's notion of building systems complete prior to > hull construction is a good approach to this.  In fact it is possible > to build substantial parts of the interior prior to hull > construction, and then just load it in through the top of the steel > hull (this is called "blue sky advanced outfitting").  The late Dale > Calkins did a paper on advanced outfitting for small vessels that was > in Journal of Ship Production a few years ago and Oetter, Duffty, > Welter and myself published a paper at this year's Ship Production > Symposium on advanced outfitting whole panels prior to joining them. > Though this technique was based on developable panels, it should be > adaptable to origami panels as well, with a little thought.   I've finally got around to ordering a book that C.D. recommended, "Ship Production". It should be here by the weekend. I really like this idea about modular production. Trying to drag sheets of paneling down a narrow companionway doesn't sound like much fun. Though for those trying to build without the help of a shipyard, wouldn't the necessity of having a crane/gantry system outweigh the benefits? Also, what about areas in midspan of the seams? Might the steel not quite form according to computer predictions, and really throw off your developed bulkheads/soles?  In answer to my own question, I can see that if you installed (dare I say it? :)) transverse frames at key points, where walls and floors hit, then matched up collars on the interior, that would be a handy thing. The way my design is working, it's turning into 3 long strips per side, instead of the "split orange peel" look of a pure Swain origami. It'd be much easier to take the offsets for the interior on a design of this type.  I did a brief search for the articles that were mentioned above, but had no joy. Are there reprints available?  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
334|334|2001-09-14 16:56:43|Alex & Kim Christie|modular drop-ins|Due to the nature of the building technique, I think the shape of the Swain hull interior can vary a little beyond predictable parameters until you've fully fixed the deck on, so it might make it hard to prefab bulk-heads, which would have to be custom fit.  Mind you, there are not that many bulkheads in a 36 foot boat, or boats on either side of that size range, right?  But there is still a lot of stuff which can be pre-fabbed before the boat is even built, or during.  It would be interesting to know if modular units have been done with deck off, however, as maybe I am wrong on that count.  Anyone have any experience on this?  Alex (moderator)|
335|335|2001-09-17 21:37:44|Stephen Wandling|Vancouver BC Building Site?|I have recently purchased a 35' Roberts steel hull that is lying at a yard without 220 VAC - 50 Amp power.  The hull is and empty shell and I had intended on hiring a welder with a portable rig to complete the required work, but the failure of a construction Project Management contract to materialize is forcing me to consider other options.  I am now considering moving the boat to a location with suitable power and buying a used stick welder and completing the welding myself.  If anyone knows of a location with 220 VAC - 50 Amp power that is economical and/or is amenable to some form of barter, I would be very interested.  The ideal location would be in the Greater Vancouver/Lower Mainland area.  I can be reached at 604-649-1418  Thanks|
336|332|2001-09-18 01:44:53|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Size and other issues|> I did a brief search for the articles that were mentioned above,   but had no  > joy. Are there reprints available?   www.sname.org|
337|328|2001-09-18 15:41:28|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: picking up the thread|The two halves are lined up at the bow and two points on the stem a  measured distance down from the stem, near the waterline are tacked.  The rest of the centreline is then pulled together with comealongs and  tacked inside and out wherever possible, as you go. As you get to the  weight bearing portion of the centre of the boat it gets more  difficult. Jacking up the chines helps, as does rocking the hull back  , pulling together the part which has lifted off the ground then  rocking the boat foreward onto the tacked together part and  continueing. To stop the plates from overriding one another at the  stern it's neccessary to tack a piece of flat bar to the centreline on  each of the halves to prevent the override . They can be broken off  after the centreline is together.    We try to do our epoxy painting in the summer. If you've got your  steel work completed and it's winter, you can still make progress by  pre fabricating the interior. Having the plate still in the primer  stage lets you  weld your interior attachment tabs where you need  them.Tabs the size of your hand are just as good for attaching  interiors as transverse frames and are less time consuming and less of  a liability if you hit a reef. When painting weather arrives you  remove your interior parts , putting the bigger ones under the cockpit  while you paint up foreward. Then you move them foreward while you  paint aft.    I just received a copy of the metal boat quarterly from the metal  boat society. They mention a place in Hadlock Washington which has  surplus devoe bar rust 235 epoxy for $50 US for a 5 gallon pail. The  same pail in Canada is $350 CDN.I've been told that they also have a  lot of primers and antifouling, cheap.                                                Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., brib@a... wrote: > I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to  > clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building  > program  > As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even  > though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused  > that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would  > have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a  > clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft. > Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to  > assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one  out  > could flesh out the problems with each step.  > Buy the plans from Brent.  > Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and  > delivered to a building site. > Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator. > Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior > Buy diesel engine.  > Outfit inside and out.  > The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until  > finished needs to be dealt with at every stage.  I would like to  > identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken ,  > and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for  a  > construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities  at  > a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland? > The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job  correctly,  > and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind  > of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc. >   Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a  time  > line for the project.  > I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without  > a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin  > keels.  I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to  be  > welded.  What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature  > and humidity sensitive.  How has this influenced the building  > schedules in coastal BC? |
338|338|2001-09-18 18:03:09|Richard Till|Re: Surplus paint| I have been in touch with D&R Surplus in Port Hadlock.  They are presently out of Ameron Devoe Bar-rust 235.  They have limited stock of another 2 part epoxy at the moment.  Looks like the painting season on the BC coast may be over for this year anyway?  Busy with detail work and dumpster diving for more stainless pipe.  rt   RT      >From: brentswain38@...  >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: picking up the thread  >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:41:18 -0000  >  > The two halves are lined up at the bow and two points on the stem a  >measured distance down from the stem, near the waterline are tacked.  >The rest of the centreline is then pulled together with comealongs and  >tacked inside and out wherever possible, as you go. As you get to the  >weight bearing portion of the centre of the boat it gets more  >difficult. Jacking up the chines helps, as does rocking the hull back  >, pulling together the part which has lifted off the ground then  >rocking the boat foreward onto the tacked together part and  >continueing. To stop the plates from overriding one another at the  >stern it's neccessary to tack a piece of flat bar to the centreline on  >each of the halves to prevent the override . They can be broken off  >after the centreline is together.  > We try to do our epoxy painting in the summer. If you've got your  >steel work completed and it's winter, you can still make progress by  >pre fabricating the interior. Having the plate still in the primer  >stage lets you weld your interior attachment tabs where you need  >them.Tabs the size of your hand are just as good for attaching  >interiors as transverse frames and are less time consuming and less of  >a liability if you hit a reef. When painting weather arrives you  >remove your interior parts , putting the bigger ones under the cockpit  >while you paint up foreward. Then you move them foreward while you  >paint aft.  >  > I just received a copy of the metal boat quarterly from the metal  >boat society. They mention a place in Hadlock Washington which has  >surplus devoe bar rust 235 epoxy for $50 US for a 5 gallon pail. The  >same pail in Canada is $350 CDN.I've been told that they also have a  >lot of primers and antifouling, cheap.  > Brent Swain  >  >  >--- In origamiboats@y..., brib@a... wrote:  > > I may be a few years from making a run at this, but I would like to  > > clarify some of the logistics involved in carrying out a building  > > program  > > As I understand it, 31 feet is sufficient to cruise the world, even  > > though I recall that Slocum with his slightly larger craft had mused  > > that if he were allowed the opportunity to change anything, he would  > > have made a slightly larger version of the Spray. I have to make a  > > clear decision on size, whether 31 or 36 ft.  > > Having made this decision, I would like to talk out the steps to  > > assemble the craft. Perhaps anyone interested in talking this one  >out  > > could flesh out the problems with each step.  > > Buy the plans from Brent.  > > Buy the steel from closest source, sand-blasted, zinc primed, and  > > delivered to a building site.  > > Buy or rent a suitable welder, powered by a gas-powered generator.  > > Buy sufficient quantity of epoxy to seal-coat interior, and exterior  > > Buy diesel engine.  > > Outfit inside and out.  > > The problem of not having a place where the project can sit until  > > finished needs to be dealt with at every stage. I would like to  > > identify whether there are stages to which the task may be taken ,  > > and then the project may be stored to wait on better weather for a  > > construction step, or for more funds. Are there storage facilities  >at  > > a reasonable (read low) cost in the lower mainland?  > > The next problem is, what are the best tools to do the job  >correctly,  > > and should they be bought, or is renting the thing to do. What kind  > > of trailer , heavy moving equipment should be at hand, etc.  > > Solutions to both these problems depend greatly on fixing a time  > > line for the project.  > > I was amazed to see the construction of the boat proceed without  > > a "strong back" , and to see assembled boats resting on the twin  > > keels. I'm curious to know how the two halves are set together to  >be  > > welded. What I've read about epoxies, is that they are temperature  > > and humidity sensitive. How has this influenced the building  > > schedules in coastal BC?  >   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com|
339|332|2001-09-19 08:00:31|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Size and other issues|--- In origamiboats@y..., cdbarry@h... wrote:  > > I did a brief search for the articles that were mentioned above,  > but had no > > joy. Are there reprints available? >  > www.sname.org   Also www.nsnet.com, then look under the documentation center.|
340|338|2001-09-20 11:10:53|robertgm77@earthlink.net|Re: Surplus paint|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Richard Till" <rct_51@h...> wrote:  >Look for expoxy paint from the industrial suppliers such as people  who paint oil tanks at refineries.It is cheap but will be basic colors.|
341|315|2001-09-20 19:30:35|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters  Exchange" in Gibsons BC.  The place is run by Garry White.  I have  the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is  of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt     --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area  and  > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for  > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The names/locations of  > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used  > sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,  > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps.  Thanks |
342|342|2001-09-21 10:09:02|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Society of Boat and Yacht Designers Meeting|To all SBYD members and friends,     The second meeting of the SBYD, Chesapeake Chapter for this year will be held in the Dodson House conference room of the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum, 6 October 2001. We will be meeting during the Mid-Atlantic Small Craft Festival, which is held every year during the first weekend in October at the CBMM. Mr. J.B. Currell of MAAS Plastics will share his thoughts on wood/epoxy construction and fiber reinforced epoxy composites.    The meeting will begin around 1000 hrs. and should end around 1400 hrs. After the meeting attendees are encouraged to visit the MASCF on the museum grounds. Copies of the minutes from the previous meeting will be available for review and approval at the meeting (if not before via e-mail). See the included map below for location.                                     Respectfully,                                   Nathan R. Fuller, Jr.                                   Secretary, SBYD                                   Chesapeake Chapter   phone: 1-703-532-0044  e-mail: 73314.104@...  postal: 6444 Queen Anne Terrace, Falls Church, Va. 22044-1417  USA                         --------------------                       |  St. Michaels, MD  |                        --------------------             -----*                                 .                / |                                .               / /|                                .              /h/ |                                  .             /t/                                       .            /r/      |R|                                     .           /o/       |t|                                      .          /N/        | | Watkins Lane                         .                     |3|=============================         .                     |3|                               . . . .                     | |                              .    Dodson Ave.      | |                              .      Foggs  ===================| |                              .        Cove          | |        | |                              .          | |        |T|                               .   North  | | St.    |a|                                .  ========| |========|l|                                 ------          |F|        |b| Mill St.                       |      |          |r|        |o|================================|      |          |e|        |t|         |C|        . .         |      |          |m|        | |         |e|       .   .        |      |          |o|        | |         |d|      .    .        | CBMM |          |n|        | |         |a|      .    .        |      |  Railroad|t| Ave.   | |Cherry St|r|      .   .  (1)    |      |  ========| |========| |====================>=<=========|      |          |S|   *----| |            |L|     .    .(2)   |      |          |t|   |  M | |            |o|    .        . .  ------          | |   |A a | |--------    |c|    .           | |   |c r | | Police |   |u|     .          | |   |m k | |--------    |s|        .          | |   |e e | |            |t|            .          | |   |  t | |            | |                 .              | |   *----| | (3)        |S|                     .          | |========| |============|t|===========            .  Harbor          | |        | |Carpenter St| |    /n/           .  .           | |----    | |            | |   /e/         .                | | P  |   | |            | |  /e/        .          | | a  |   | |            | | /r/ t     .          | | r  |   | | Willow St. | |/G/ S    .          | | k  |===| |============| | /      .          | | i  |   | |            | |       .          | | n  |   | |            | |       .          | | g  |   | |            | |       .          | |----    | |            | |       .   Canton | | Alley  | |            | |       .  ========| |========| |============| |       .               To    | |-------     | |       .             Route   | | Post  |    | |       .               50    | |Office |    | |         .               |     | |-------     | |             .              \|/    | |            | | Mulberry St.     .                     | |======================================                 Note - (1) Dodson House        (2) Crab Claw Restaurant           (3) Carpenter Street Saloon             (c)  1997 N.R. Fuller,  Jr.     also see www.sbyd.org|
343|315|2001-09-21 14:16:14|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|For the leading edge of a fin keel, if you use sch 40 you'd be wise to  double it up. Even with lead poured behind it sch 40 will dent if you  hit a reef at full speed . Sch 80 (1/2 inch wall thickness)doesn't  dent no matter how hard you hit.                                            Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., rct_51@h... wrote: > For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters  > Exchange" in Gibsons BC.  The place is run by Garry White.  I have  > the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is  > of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area  > and  > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for  > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The names/locations of  > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used  > > sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,  > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps.  Thanks |
344|315|2001-09-21 15:48:53|Stephen Wandling|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|  Brent, I am trying to adapt some of the design details from your excellent book into the Roberts I am completing.  I am removing the skeg/spade rudder assembly and installing a low aspect skeg with an outboard rudder.  It's hard to determine some of the required detail from your book and I am wondering if I might benefit from buying a set of plans, if they contain the additional detail. For example, do you recommend sch 80 pipe as the leading edge of the skeg?  What diameter (it looks to be about 1 1/2" in the picture?)?  The upper portion of the pipe looks to extend maybe 18" above the skeg.  Is it intended to insert all of this into the hull, and if so, how is it dealt with on the inside (gussets, etc)?  Is the skeg plated with 3/16"?  The max width of the skeg at the hull connection appears to be maybe 3 1/2", is this about right or is more better (I know more is stronger, but I am assuming that if the skeg is too 'fat' it might reduce performance)? I could ask similar questions about the anchor winch, rudder, etc.  Would a set of plans for one of your  boats contain the detail that I am looking for? Thanks for all of your help Brent. Stephen   brentswain38@... wrote:  For the leading edge of a fin keel, if you use sch 40 you'd be wise to double it up. Even with lead poured behind it sch 40 will dent if you hit a reef at full speed . Sch 80 (1/2 inch wall thickness)doesn't dent no matter how hard you hit.                                            Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., rct_51@h... wrote: > For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters > Exchange" in Gibsons BC.  The place is run by Garry White.  I have > the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is > of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area > and > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The names/locations of > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used > > sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's, > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps.  Thanks   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
345|345|2001-09-21 15:58:30|Alex & Kim Christie|photo of Swain 36 being trailered|Attachments :          If anyone was ever curious how the twin keeled  Swain hulls are best transported by road, I'd suggest having a look at these  photos, which show what I surmise to be a 36 footer in transit by Don's  Transport of Victoria, BC.  The trailer is basically a low-deck flat deck,  and the hull is well strapped down.   These are "spy" shots, taken several days ago with  digital camera through the windshield of my Van at 70 Kilometres/hr, so  might be a little fuzzy!   I'll put these photos in the group's photo section  for those who only recieve daily digests which don't have  attachments.   Alex Christie (moderator)|
346|345|2001-09-21 16:08:36|Alex Christie|Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered|I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni.  Anyone know the owner?  Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, but  has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a well.   There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in the  manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale.   Alex Christie (moderator)|
347|315|2001-09-22 15:55:12|brent swain|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs| ABC salvage just off SE marine drive in Burnaby has always been a great souce of scrap. They mangle the hell out of everything, but they always have lots of stuff.                                                                                           Brent Swain   >From: rct_51@...  >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs  >Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:30:29 -0000  >  >For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters  >Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have  >the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is  >of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt  >  >  >  >--- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:  > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area  >and  > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for  > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of  > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used  > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,  > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks  >   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com|
348|315|2001-09-24 15:30:59|Richard Till|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs| Brent, I agree.  On closer examination, i did order Sch. 80, 6".  This should match the 1/2" sole plate in wall thickness.  Just measured it to make sure and it all matches up.  rtRT      >From: brentswain38@...  >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs  >Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:16:11 -0000  >  >For the leading edge of a fin keel, if you use sch 40 you'd be wise to  >double it up. Even with lead poured behind it sch 40 will dent if you  >hit a reef at full speed . Sch 80 (1/2 inch wall thickness)doesn't  >dent no matter how hard you hit.  > Brent Swain  >  >--- In origamiboats@y..., rct_51@h... wrote:  > > For what it's worth: there is a place called "The Bitter End Boaters  > > Exchange" in Gibsons BC. The place is run by Garry White. I have  > > the leading edge for a fin keel (1/2 a piece of sch 40, 6") if it is  > > of any use and enough 1/2" plate to do the sole of a keel. rt  > >  > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:  > > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to Sacremento Ca.area  > > and  > > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to scrounge for  > > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The names/locations of  > > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing for trim to used  > > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine Exchange, Popeye's,  > > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit helps. Thanks  >   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com|
349|315|2001-09-26 16:46:14|wade panzich|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|Whats up sucka, I hope all is going well for you down there just wanted to say hello and wish you luck with everything, got my engine done I just need to put it in, I cant find anyone to help me, everyone is gone. All is great here, the weather has been good and saw some lights last night. Keep in touch I may be down there sometime I will keep you posted, Aloha bro Wade--- WIJNANDA69@... wrote:  > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to > Sacremento Ca.area and  > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to > scrounge for  > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The > names/locations of  > places where I can get anything from steel tubing > for trim to used  > sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine > Exchange, Popeye's,  > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit > helps.  Thanks >  >  >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com|
350|345|2001-09-26 18:43:27|evanmoonjunk@yahoo.com|Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote:  > I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni.  > Anyone know the owner? > Hi Alex, yes this is a boat that I pulled together about ten years   ago in Port Alberni. The owner is Toni Janske(spelling unsure} He  wanted a boat just under 30' so he could ship it to Europe on a  freighter and also wanted a flush deck for max. interior space. We  put in an outboard well cause he did not want to use interior space  for an inboard. He seems to be happy with the boat but it has been  several years since I talked to him. Apparently he trucked the boat  over to Nanaimo so he would not have to sail around. Probably does  not have a whole lot of time off....Evan    > Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard,   but   > has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a   well.    > There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in   the   > manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale.  >  > Alex Christie > (moderator) |
351|345|2001-09-26 19:46:43|brent swain|Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered|Evan    I just had a look at Rob's boat in Cortenay. Nice workmanship.   While I was comming home from Tonga, I found that the intake thru hull on  my head was comming out of the water when the boat heeled in gusts and I had  to  wait for the lulls and pump like hell to get rinse water into the head  before the next gus came. I've since moved the intake much closer to the  centreline.Bill Lornie had to move the intake for his exhaust cooling almost  all the way to the centreline to stop it from sucking air when he heeled or  was in rough water.   Rob's head intakes would have been out of the water anytime the boat  heeled more than ten degrees. When offshore cruising , you can be heeled 25  degrees for weeks on end. I told him to move them nearer the centreline.    Lately I've been putting in a stainless doughnut around the exhaust  outlet , flush with the hull plate,as the heat from the exhaust burns the  hull paint  around the exhaust thru hull and you get a serious corrosion  problem there after a few years, even with a wet exhaust .   The aft keel stifners should be tied together with an angle iron floor of  heavy angle (3 inch by 3 inch by 1/2 inch),triangulating the trailing edges  of the keels with the centreline , otherwise a hard collision with a rock  will drive the trailing edge of the keel up into the hull a couple of inches  . I learned this the hard way, and had to jack the keel down with a  hydraulic jack before welding in the angle iron floor.   I just missed you here in Comox by a couple of days according to Karl.I  may be through Nanaimo tomorrow some time.                                              Brent Swain    >From: evanmoonjunk@... >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:43:23 -0000 > >--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > > I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port Alberni. > > Anyone know the owner? > > Hi Alex, yes this is a boat that I pulled together about ten years >ago in Port Alberni. The owner is Toni Janske(spelling unsure} He >wanted a boat just under 30' so he could ship it to Europe on a >freighter and also wanted a flush deck for max. interior space. We >put in an outboard well cause he did not want to use interior space >for an inboard. He seems to be happy with the boat but it has been >several years since I talked to him. Apparently he trucked the boat >over to Nanaimo so he would not have to sail around. Probably does >not have a whole lot of time off....Evan > > Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, >but > > has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a >well. > > There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in >the > > manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale. > > > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) >    _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp|
352|315|2001-09-28 16:14:22|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|Another place to check:  Mariners Xchange, 12220, 2nd Ave Steveston,  Richmond BC.  Phone (604)271-2284.  On another topic: Over time, I  have developed a very low tolerance to diesel fumes of any kind.  Can  anyone comment on effectiveness and efficiency of an outboard.  I  have seen them rigged in wells, brackets on rudders etc.  I notice  that, in general, wells seem to circulate fumes back into the  cockpit.  I have a Honda on my CAL 25 right now--it runs like a clock  under most conditions.  An x US Coast Gaurd officer (tourist) asked  to see the construction of the (36')steel boat the other day and  commented that a 10 hp Yamaha high thrust outboard (when compared to  an inboard) delivers the equivalent of 35 hp at the prop?   Brainstorming--any thoughts would be welcome. rt     --- In origamiboats@y..., wade panzich <wadepanzich@y...> wrote: >   Whats up sucka, I hope all is going well for you > down there just wanted to say hello and wish you luck > with everything, got my engine done I just need to put > it in, I cant find anyone to help me, everyone is > gone. All is great here, the weather has been good and > saw some lights last night. Keep in touch I may be > down there sometime I will keep you posted, Aloha bro > Wade--- WIJNANDA69@H... wrote: > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to > > Sacremento Ca.area and  > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to > > scrounge for  > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat.  The > > names/locations of  > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing > > for trim to used  > > sails and stoves for cheap.  (i.e. Pac Marine > > Exchange, Popeye's,  > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit > > helps.  Thanks > >  > >  > >  >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!  Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com |
353|353|2001-09-28 16:30:12|Dale J. Robertson|Looking for a yard to build a hull|Is anyone aware of a steel boatbuilder on the east coast (preferably in the D.C. -Annapolis area) TIA Dale J. Robertson|
354|315|2001-09-29 02:19:40|John P Barker|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs|                ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    rct_51@...    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 28, 2001 1:14    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re:    scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs       An x US Coast Gaurd officer (tourist) asked to see the    construction of the (36')steel boat the other day and commented that a 10    hp Yamaha high thrust outboard (when compared to an inboard) delivers the    equivalent of 35 hp at the prop?         I was going to say something very rude about our CG but I    will limit my self to saying NO WAY!!!        It will push your boat but lacks the power to stop it    quickly. Another thing to think about is your electric generation requirements    out board motors are usually week in this department.       John   John  |
355|355|2001-09-29 15:20:19|Alex & Kim Christie|Outboards for motive power|          People will almost universally agree that a nice  slow turning diesel with properly matched propellor and reduction gear are a  nice way to go.  But if you can't afford such an installation, there  are some remarkable new outboard products out there which will suffice, and then  some. My thoughts on outboard motors, having used them on a heavy boat in a  pinch, then finding them to work remarkably well:   I think it works better than people will admit, but  it is important to recognize that not all outboards are equal.   My Honda 7.5 hp did sterling service with a special  aftermarket low-pitched "elebhant ear" prop, which I used in tandem with a 15 hp  Suzuki 15 hp with low pitch prop.  The Honda alone could push the boat fine  in calm, the two together were needed in chop or headwind.    My recent forays to the Honda dealer in Campbell  River revealed that they now have a high-thrust version in their outboard lines  which have 2:1 reduction gears in their hubs, similar to the Yamaha line,   and very large "lobed" propellors. Starting with a machine like this will at  least give you the most possible thrust out of a given  engine.    It is true that the ability to back up quickly was  hampered, but I soon developed a fail-safe strategy:  I would simply back  in slowly to the slip, saving the powerful forward thrust for stopping the boat,  which it did rather smartly.  My two regular outboards were very good  at this, and I can bet that a proper 2:1 hub outboard with lobed prop would  be even better.      It may be possible that actual measurement of  pulling power ("bollard pull") of a Honda or Yamaha high-thrust 2:1 hub outboard  could be equivalent to a 35 hp with regular high speed prop, since the 35's prop  would be slipping alot while trying to move a heavy weight from a  stand-still.  But a 35 hp with low-pitch pulling prop might beat it by some  degree.  It is the 2:1 reduction in the high-thrust motors which makes all  the difference, and this coupled with a proper pulling prop can present quite a  formidable force. It should in theory double the pulling power of the 10  hp.   Nothing beats going out there and trying it out,  and I was as surprised as anyone to feel the "muscle" of my puny 7.5 Honda  accellerating my heavy 36 footer from full stop to a reasonable cruising speed  in short order.  It is all in the pitching of the prop, the size of the  prop blades, and ideally the gearing of the hub (which, though I did not have,  would have only been an improvement.).    Say:  as an experiment, if someone in my area  has a 10 hp high-thrust, then put it on a boat and bring it over to my place  where I have a Honda 35 on a runabout, and we'll have a tug of war to see which  can pull the best!   As for electricity generation, perhaps the new Honda generator line which  has come out might work.  They are very small, but very efficient of fuel  with high output.   Regards,   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
356|356|2001-09-29 15:20:24|Alex & Kim Christie|electric drive|          Electric drive may be an option worth considering,  as you can use the same motor to generate electricity while under sail.  It  can work both ways in an on-off mode, according to the literature for the  Electric Wheel (Solomon Technologies).  This means while you are  motorsailing the drive can be pushing you up a wave, but generating electricity  going down a wave, or when sail power overtakes the drive in terms of thrust  transmitting to the hull.   http://www.solomontechnologies.com/   offers the Electric Wheel   Alex Christie   (moderator)|
357|356|2001-09-30 05:41:37|Richard Payne|Re: electric drive|I had an electric vehicle for some  time - it was a little Mazda van with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized scr speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The best thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly free! Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The life of the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest you give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of cycles and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds good it is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery technology, which is a real pity. Regards, Richard Payne.|
358|356|2001-09-30 12:14:40|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: electric drive|I guess the other hope is the promising developments in the Ballard Fuel cells, which could provide a clean, vibration-free source of energy.  I note also on the www.solomontechnologies.com website that most installations have a Panda 4kw generator for recharging.  While this may be a step backward to internal combustion technology, it does allow one to isolate sound and vibration with a machine which should have long life.  With a generator, solar panels, wind turbines, and drag generation through the prop, you could certainly have a crack at saving enough fuel to pay for the unit over its lifetime, or at least make the battery replacement issue a little less harsh.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   > I had an electric vehicle for some  time - it was a little Mazda van > with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized scr > speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The best > thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly free! > Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The life of > the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest you > give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of cycles > and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds good it > is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery > technology, which is a real pity. > Regards, > Richard Payne. > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
359|356|2001-10-01 14:07:06|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: electric drive and outboards|Thank you for the brainstorming.  Solomon technologies has an  impressive solution, albeit with an expensive capital outlay. I once  towed a large Grand Banks from Vancouver Bay to Egmont with a 10hp  outboard on a skiff against the wind.  They had run out of diesel and  the wind was pushing them up on the rocks.  Also towed a dive boat  (out of fuel) from Spanish banks to Burrard Civic with the 7.5 Honda  on my Cal 25.  This seems to indicate that the thrust can do the  job.  Tug-o-war would qive a quantifiable result.  The weakness  appears to be in attaching the motor to the hull.  An inboard has  more structural integrity in so many ways.  Still thinking, rt        --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > I guess the other hope is the promising developments in the Ballard   Fuel  > cells, which could provide a clean, vibration-free source of energy. >  > I note also on the www.solomontechnologies.com website that most > installations have a Panda 4kw generator for recharging.  While   this may be  > a step backward to internal combustion technology, it does allow   one to  > isolate sound and vibration with a machine which should have long   life.  >  > With a generator, solar panels, wind turbines, and drag generation   through  > the prop, you could certainly have a crack at saving enough fuel to   pay for  > the unit over its lifetime, or at least make the battery   replacement issue a  > little less harsh. >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) >  > > I had an electric vehicle for some  time - it was a little Mazda   van  > > with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized   scr  > > speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The   best  > > thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly   free!  > > Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The   life of  > > the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest   you  > > give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of   cycles  > > and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds   good it  > > is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery > > technology, which is a real pity. > > Regards, > > Richard Payne. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  > > > > > > |
360|356|2001-10-01 17:32:06|fprice@ihug.co.nz|Re: electric drive and outboards|Hello Guys  There has been a recent article in "Cruising World" magazine detailing the  setup of an outboard on the quarter of an Alberg 30 yacht.  Thie setup detailed was way the best solution to using an outboard that I've  ever seen, enabling the engine to be postioned so that the quarter wave didn't  drown it, and that following seas also had "less of a chance" of killing it.   In the up position it was right up at the rail out of the way except maybe if  you were lying alongside a wharf (what you call a non floating piled dock?)  The other advantage I see in this solution over a well is that it allows a  reasonably big engine to be used without the overheating/air supply problens  that wells often seem to give.  The article is at home but if anyone is interested I can scan and post it.  Regards Foster Price Southland, New Zealand    > Thank you for the brainstorming.  Solomon technologies has an  > impressive solution, albeit with an expensive capital outlay. I once  > towed a large Grand Banks from Vancouver Bay to Egmont with a 10hp  > outboard on a skiff against the wind.  They had run out of diesel and  > the wind was pushing them up on the rocks.  Also towed a dive boat  > (out of fuel) from Spanish banks to Burrard Civic with the 7.5 Honda  > on my Cal 25.  This seems to indicate that the thrust can do the  > job.  Tug-o-war would qive a quantifiable result.  The weakness  > appears to be in attaching the motor to the hull.  An inboard has  > more structural integrity in so many ways.  Still thinking, rt       >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  > wrote: > > I guess the other hope is the promising developments in the Ballard  > Fuel > > cells, which could provide a clean, vibration-free source of energy. > >  > > I note also on the www.solomontechnologies.com website that most > > installations have a Panda 4kw generator for recharging.  While  > this may be > > a step backward to internal combustion technology, it does allow  > one to > > isolate sound and vibration with a machine which should have long  > life. > >  > > With a generator, solar panels, wind turbines, and drag generation  > through > > the prop, you could certainly have a crack at saving enough fuel to  > pay for > > the unit over its lifetime, or at least make the battery  > replacement issue a > > little less harsh. > >  > > Alex Christie > >  > > (moderator) > >  > > > I had an electric vehicle for some  time - it was a little Mazda  > van > > > with 96 volts dc in wet cells. It used an advanced transistorized  > scr > > > speed control and would get up to 60 MPH for short bursts. The  > best > > > thing was that I could recharge it at work and drive for nearly  > free! > > > Unfortunately ,the achilles heel was the battery technology. The  > life of > > > the batteries is not economic and for that reason I would suggest  > you > > > give the electric idea a miss - once you work out the number of  > cycles > > > and the cost of the batteries you will see that whilst it sounds  > good it > > > is an expensive way to go until we have more advanced battery > > > technology, which is a real pity. > > > Regards, > > > Richard Payne. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > >  >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-  unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  >  >  > |
361|315|2001-10-02 14:46:33|brent swain|Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs| Fishermen have come up  with a simple solution to diesel fumes, install a couple of large electric fans hooked up to the ignition switch, one to  pump a large amount of air in and another to pump it out. Then make the engine compartment as airtight as possible from the inside of the boat. That should be easy to plan if you start in the building stage.      Outboards can work well, but I'd still weld in diesel engine mounts , stern tube, and exhaust outlet in the building stages to leave your options open. Making your mounts low  and wide enables you to use any engine that comes along .Making them too high and narrow limits your options.Potential fuel tanks can start their life as water tanks.     On my last boat  the new owner trashed the diesel by overloading it.  There was a steel  boarding ladder on the side , connected to the bulwark cap by welded on chain links.    He mounted the outboard on the boarding ladder and put a large scotchman under it to act as a float. When a wave came along , rather than submerging the outboard, it floated over the waves with the help of the scotchman.      I've been told that extensions for a Johnson outboard  fit into one another and you can put together as many as you want to make as long a shaft as you want                                                                                 Brent Swain   >From: rct_51@...  >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: scrap/salvage/usefull boat stuffs  >Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:14:13 -0000  >  >Another place to check: Mariners Xchange, 12220, 2nd Ave Steveston,  >Richmond BC. Phone (604)271-2284. On another topic: Over time, I  >have developed a very low tolerance to diesel fumes of any kind. Can  >anyone comment on effectiveness and efficiency of an outboard. I  >have seen them rigged in wells, brackets on rudders etc. I notice  >that, in general, wells seem to circulate fumes back into the  >cockpit. I have a Honda on my CAL 25 right now--it runs like a clock  >under most conditions. An x US Coast Gaurd officer (tourist) asked  >to see the construction of the (36')steel boat the other day and  >commented that a 10 hp Yamaha high thrust outboard (when compared to  >an inboard) delivers the equivalent of 35 hp at the prop?  >Brainstorming--any thoughts would be welcome. rt  >  >  >  >--- In origamiboats@y..., wade panzich wrote:  > > Whats up sucka, I hope all is going well for you  > > down there just wanted to say hello and wish you luck  > > with everything, got my engine done I just need to put  > > it in, I cant find anyone to help me, everyone is  > > gone. All is great here, the weather has been good and  > > saw some lights last night. Keep in touch I may be  > > down there sometime I will keep you posted, Aloha bro  > > Wade--- WIJNANDA69@H... wrote:  > > > I will be driving from the Juneau, AK. area to  > > > Sacremento Ca.area and  > > > was wondering if I could get some leads on places to  > > > scrounge for  > > > suitable parts for a 36' steel sailboat. The  > > > names/locations of  > > > places where I can get anything from steel tubing  > > > for trim to used  > > > sails and stoves for cheap. (i.e. Pac Marine  > > > Exchange, Popeye's,  > > > Boeing surplus) as we all know every little bit  > > > helps. Thanks  > > >  > > >  > > >  > >  > >  > > __________________________________________________  > > Do You Yahoo!?  > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!  >Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com  >   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com|
362|362|2001-10-02 16:01:55|Alex & Kim Christie|diesel outboard from China Diesel |Here is an outboard from China Diesel which is designed for pushing big boats.  $995 U.S.! I wonder if it could be fitted with a really long shaft? Currently 41" from bottom of unit to motor mount, longer than the longest longshaft outboard. 'Tain't a lightweight, at 250 lbs, but interesting to ponder if it could be rigged up right.  I assume it is made in China, which would bother my conscience if I were to buy, considering their oppressive stand on Tibet...  http://www.chinadiesel.com/mrn/diesel_outboard.htm  Alex  (moderator)|
363|362|2001-10-02 19:45:50|Doug Barnard|Re: diesel outboard from China Diesel|> -----Original Message----- > From: Alex & Kim Christie [mailto:ravencoast@...]  > > I assume it is made in China, which would bother my conscience if > I were to > buy, considering their oppressive stand on Tibet...   And with most teak coming in from Myanmar (Burma), what's a boatbuilder to do? :(  ___________________________ Doug Barnard rebuilding a 20' Skipjack "Fiesta Bimbo" trawler-crawler wannabe|
364|362|2001-10-04 18:26:24|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: diesel outboard from China Diesel|Use any other wood but teak.  Teak inside a boat tends to make the interior look like a cave during  overcast weather, and using wood on the outside of a steel boat is a  big mistake.   I used to use salvaged gumwood from motorcycle crates , but now they  are mostly made of metal. Gumwood is much better than teak for corners  as it takes a lot more abuse.              Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: >  >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alex & Kim Christie [mailto:ravencoast@t...] >  > > > > I assume it is made in China, which would bother my conscience if > > I were to > > buy, considering their oppressive stand on Tibet... >  > And with most teak coming in from Myanmar (Burma), what's a  boatbuilder to > do? :( >  > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > "Fiesta Bimbo" > trawler-crawler wannabe |
365|355|2001-10-08 14:59:40|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Re: Outboards for motive power|The calculations are fairly simple to do to compare thrust, etc. and  would tell the story.  The current 3 volume PNA has data for B series  and Kort nozzles, and segmental data is available from the Blount- Hubble 1981 paper (www.sname.org)  I have spreadsheets for B-series, segmental props and Kort 19A  nozzles in Excel, using these references.  If you want me to do a specific check, let me know with speed, etc.,  or I can send you the sheets.|
366|366|2001-10-08 15:07:08|cdbarry@hotmail.com|Fuel Cells|The Coast Guard is currently using fuel cells to power some lights in  Alaska.  MTU also has a program going for marine fuels cells for  marine propulsion.|
367|345|2001-10-12 19:40:48|evanmoonjunk@yahoo.com|Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered|--- In origamiboats@y..., "brent swain" <brentswain38@h...> wrote:  > Evan >  >   I just had a look at Rob's boat in Cortenay. Nice workmanship. >   While I was comming home from Tonga, I found that the intake thru   hull on   > my head was comming out of the water when the boat heeled in gusts   and I had   > to  wait for the lulls and pump like hell to get rinse water into   the head   > before the next gus came. I've since moved the intake much closer   to the   > centreline.Bill Lornie had to move the intake for his exhaust   cooling almost   > all the way to the centreline to stop it from sucking air when he   heeled or   > was in rough water. >   Rob's head intakes would have been out of the water anytime the   boat   > heeled more than ten degrees. When offshore cruising , you can be   heeled 25   > degrees for weeks on end. I told him to move them nearer the   centreline.  >    Lately I've been putting in a stainless doughnut around the   exhaust   > outlet , flush with the hull plate,as the heat from the exhaust   burns the   > hull paint  around the exhaust thru hull and you get a serious   corrosion   > problem there after a few years, even with a wet exhaust . >   The aft keel stifners should be tied together with an angle iron   floor of   > heavy angle (3 inch by 3 inch by 1/2 inch),triangulating the   trailing edges   > of the keels with the centreline , otherwise a hard collision with   a rock   > will drive the trailing edge of the keel up into the hull a couple   of inches   > . I learned this the hard way, and had to jack the keel down with a  > hydraulic jack before welding in the angle iron floor. >   I just missed you here in Comox by a couple of days according to   Karl.I   > may be through Nanaimo tomorrow some time. >                                              Brent Swain > Hi Brent, Thanks for the feedback. Somehow I missed your message   the last few times I checked the forum. The deal with Rob is that he  has had years of experience as a fisherman and had his mind made up  about some ideas on his new boat. I tried to convince him to change  his mind about a few things on the boat but without success. At the  time he was happy as he got what he wanted.  There is always a lot of discussion of ideas whenever I build a boat  for a customer. I always tell people what you recomend as well as  telling them what others have done, and then help them decide what  they would be happy with. but the final choice is theirs(within  reason!)...Evan   >  > >From: evanmoonjunk@y... > >Reply-To: origamiboats@y... > >To: origamiboats@y... > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: photo of Swain 36 being trailered > >Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:43:23 -0000 > > > >--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@t...> wrote: > > > I should add that the vessel is called "What Is", of Port   Alberni.  > > > Anyone know the owner? > > > Hi Alex, yes this is a boat that I pulled together about ten   years  > >ago in Port Alberni. The owner is Toni Janske(spelling unsure} He > >wanted a boat just under 30' so he could ship it to Europe on a > >freighter and also wanted a flush deck for max. interior space. We > >put in an outboard well cause he did not want to use interior space > >for an inboard. He seems to be happy with the boat but it has been > >several years since I talked to him. Apparently he trucked the boat > >over to Nanaimo so he would not have to sail around. Probably does > >not have a whole lot of time off....Evan > > > Also interesting is that the owner has not installed an inboard, > >but > > > has chosen to have what looks to be a longshaft outboard in a > >well. > > > There is one of those rings around the prop for added thrust, in > >the > > > manner of a Kort Nozzle, but on a smaller scale. > > > > > > Alex Christie > > > (moderator) > > >  >  > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at   http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp|
368|345|2001-10-23 22:19:19|rct_51@hotmail.com|Interesting experiment with UHMW plastic|Local industries use Ultra High Molecular Wheight plastic for flights  on conveyors, wear plates in chutes, bearings and bearing surfaces,  etc.  Someone described its' performance as "nylon on steroids."  Nevertheless, it does eventually wear in extermely abrasive  environments.  When it gets worn into irregular shapes it often gets  discarded.  The good news is: you can shape it with woodworking  tools.    Having welded nylon with good success in the past, i surmised this  stuff would join just as well--it does.  I took (2) 1.5" slabs and  welded them together to make 3" wide bow rollers out of.  I tested  the weld with a blacksmith hammer--the joint is rock solid.    To weld the stuff: drill holes in roller pieces; heat both surfaces  of roller pieces with propane torch until clear liquid plastic  appears in an even film; place on threaded rod quickly with the two  liquid surfaces facing; tighten nuts on ready rod.  This ensures even  pressure and symetry.  I used the same size rod to do this as to turn  down the rollers.  The trick is to rehearse everything before you  actually do the weld.  I plan to make more rollers this weekend for  spares. rt|
369|369|2001-10-28 09:15:45|normkoenig@yahoo.com|Specs on Brent's designs|Group,  I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's  designs.  I have a few questions, though:  Are there non-pilothouse versions available? Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot  version?  How much? Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers?  Thanks in advance for your help.  - Norm|
370|369|2001-10-28 13:38:44|Stephen Wandling|Re: Specs on Brent's designs|Norm,  I am sure Brent will be along shortly and will provide answers to your questions, or you can email him directly at <brentswain38@...>.  I didn't discover Brent's boats until after I had purchased a 35' Roberts designed steel boat, or I probably would be building a Swain boat right now.  I want to make a comment on pilothouses.  I confess to having a prejudice against 'wheelhouses or pilothouses'. "Real men man the helm in the wind and rain" and all of that good stuff.  I had hoped to have my boat in the water by now, but circumstances have deemed otherwise.  I am glad.  Given the onset of the new season and a few samplings of the season to come, I am realizing that if I intend to make this boat my full time home I will have to have a 'full time' view of the weather conditions to be expected.  The long and short of it is that I will now add a minimal pilothouse to my boat, enabling me to have a look around from inside while the vane steers it's course.  Since I won't have an engine I won't be making the typical use of the pilothouse: motoring, but by running a morse cable from inside, connected to the trim tab on the rudder I can have steering with a 'jog stick'.  If I want to actually sail from inside, this will also require running the halyards from the two junk sails and their sheets inside as well, as well as a Plexiglas 'skylight' panel to enable observing the main sail's set.  But, most of the time I will let the vane do the steering.  [This reminds me that I have not yet resolved how to run the halyards, etc. into the pilothouse and still allow their manipulation from the cockpit, in a manner that will not result in water leaking in to the pilothouse space.  I guess I could have them channeled in a 'trough', running fore and aft and without a top, that has a drain.  But issues on shifting from cockpit to pilothouse and back are still there.  Any ideas?]  I will confess to being well into the second half of my first century on the planet, which I suspect may have some impact on my pilothouse decision!  Cheers,  Stephen  normkoenig@... wrote:   > Group, > > I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's > designs.  I have a few questions, though: > > Are there non-pilothouse versions available? > Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot > version?  How much? > Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? > Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > - Norm > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
371|369|2001-10-31 19:53:02|evanmoonjunk@yahoo.com|Re: Specs on Brent's designs|--- In origamiboats@y..., normkoenig@y... wrote:  > Group, >  > I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's  > designs.  I have a few questions, though: >  > Are there non-pilothouse versions available? > Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot  > version?  How much? > Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? > Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? >  > Thanks in advance for your help. >   > - Norm  Hi Norm, These boats have built with pilot houses, without pilot  houses, normal cocpits, no cockpits(flush deck in stern) raised flush  deck in back and variations of this. I have done all of the above as  well as a 30' with a  raised flush main cabin. There is no problem getting lots of headroom as the cabin floor can  be installed according to the headroom you require Brent has some sample interiors in his plans, you would have to  contact him to get copies.As far as specs are concerned, those are in  the plans as well, if there is anything specific you would like to  know, you can e-mail either myself or Brent...Evan|
372|372|2001-11-04 16:17:41|robertgm77@earthlink.net|bilge keels or not ?|I recently met some people who were on a bilge keel boat that ran aground. All usual methods of getting oneself off,kedging,pulling the mast over etc only dug the  keel deeper on the side they worked on.  They had to get towed and the boat had minimal damage.Has anyone had  this experience ? I am considering one keel design or the other and trying to evaluate the pros and cons of both.|
373|372|2001-11-04 23:01:30|Russ Ashworth|Re: bilge keels or not ?| At 09:17 PM 11/4/01 +0000, you wrote:   I recently met some people who were on a bilge keel boat that ran aground. All usual methods of getting oneself off,kedging,pulling the mast over etc only dug the  keel deeper on the side they worked on.   They had to get towed and the boat had minimal damage.Has anyone had  this experience ? I am considering one keel design or the other and trying to evaluate the pros and cons of both.  If the boat is sailing and healing when you hit the lee keel will be anything up to a foot or more deeper than usual, and releasing the sail will allow the boat to come upright thus reducing the draft. The way to get a bilge or twin keeler off is to get it upright. Or put the kettle on and wait until the tide comes in. That is the way they do it in England.:) Check out the following for some fascinating reading.  http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/twinkeels.html http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/blgekeel.html  BTW. I have just bought an English Twin Keeler. It is an amazing little boat.    Russ Ashworth  An oar will always start first pull.   |
374|374|2001-11-07 00:51:43|Alex Christie|New cover photo showing bilge keels|Greetings,  You'll notice I changed the home page photo; this is a boat I took a  snapshot of last summer while in Vancouver.  Didn't see a name on it.  Anyone know it?    Anyhow, thought I'd post it as it shows very nicely the shape and  positioning of the bilge keels that have been the subject of  discussion lately.  Alex Christie (moderator)|
375|369|2001-11-07 15:35:11|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Specs on Brent's designs|I can't imagine why you'd want to sit in the driving rain in an  open cockpit in raingear, just to look stylishly foolish, when you  could be in a pilothouse , warm and dry in a t shirt sipping on a hot  chocolate reading dry charts.   both the 36 and 31 footers have lots of headroom. If you dropped  the floor of the 36 as far as it can go you'd have almost 7 foot  headroom in the trunk cabin and 8 ft in the wheelhouse. We usually go  for 6ft 2 inch headroom and make the bilge into tankage.     The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch  draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs  empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel  weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46  or 47 ft mast stepped on deck.    The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead  ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6  inch draft single long fin keel .     Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck .   Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin  cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the  bottom of the keel.   Altho I've built a 36 ft hull in ideal conditions, and shell ( hull  deck cabin cockpit , keels, skeg tacked together in 6 days, it  usually takes 2 to 3 weeks .    Morse cable on the trimtab works well for inside steering, but  lately I've been using a shaft run from the transom under the deck  with an arm sticking up linked to the trimtab and an arm inside  sticking down linked to the jogstick. Morse cable can corrode and  sieze up, and it's travel distance is limited. The solid stainless  shaft will last forever and you can give it whatever travel you need. Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., evanmoonjunk@y... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., normkoenig@y... wrote: > > Group, > >  > > I just stumbled onto this group and am fascinated by Brent's  > > designs.  I have a few questions, though: > >  > > Are there non-pilothouse versions available? > > Is there standing headroom in such designs in the 31 and 36 foot  > > version?  How much? > > Does anybody have any drawings with sample interior layouts? > > Are specs available for the 31 and 36 footers? > >  > > Thanks in advance for your help. > >  >  > > - Norm > Hi Norm, These boats have built with pilot houses, without pilot  > houses, normal cocpits, no cockpits(flush deck in stern) raised  flush  > deck in back and variations of this. I have done all of the above  as  > well as a 30' with a  raised flush main cabin. > There is no problem getting lots of headroom as the cabin floor can  > be installed according to the headroom you require > Brent has some sample interiors in his plans, you would have to  > contact him to get copies.As far as specs are concerned, those are  in  > the plans as well, if there is anything specific you would like to  > know, you can e-mail either myself or Brent...Evan |
376|372|2001-11-07 15:51:30|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: bilge keels or not ?|The last thing you want to do in a bilge keeler is run aground at  absolute high tide. I did once and had to dig myself out. By the time  I did the lagoon had frozen over and I had to ram my way through a  quarter mile of five inch ice.    Most people who have built my twin keelers wouldn't want anything  else and most of those who hav built single keelers wish they had  twin keels.    Jack Carson sailed one of my 36 foot twin keelers around the world,  then built himself another twin keeler. He said that he was able to  get into a lot of remote places and hang out in  river mouths where  the single keelers can't go . He said that for the whole east coast  of Australia a twin keeler can hang out in quiet waters in  drying  anchorages while the single keelers bounce in the swell outside.   Twin keelers are slightly slower upwind than a single keeler, but  the differece is very marginal . One of my 36 ft twin keelers just  sailed from Sooke to San Francisco in 5 1/2 days . I sailed from  Sooke BC to Ensenada in 14 days , and just sailed home from Tonga to  BC , to windward for all but the last 1,000 miles . I sailed from  Hilo to BC in 23 days, in spite of making absolutly no easting  against 20 knot NE winds until 38 north .   Twin keelers don't have the tankage in the keels that single  keelers have.   My current 31 ft twinkeeler has never paid to stay in a marina in  the 17 years since I launched her , largely due to her ability to dry  out.                                       Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., Russ Ashworth <russa@s...> wrote: > |
377|372|2001-11-07 15:54:12|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: bilge keels or not ?|If you get stuck on a falling tide,in a twin keeler, relax, put the  coffee pot on and enjoy the break. Some twin keelers often pull into  an anchorage at night and deliberatly hit the beach, put out a lot of  anchor rode and go to bed , with no worries about dragging anchor .  When a gale blows through an anchorage there is no place I'd rather  be than  hard aground.                                            Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., Russ Ashworth <russa@s...> wrote: > |
378|369|2001-11-07 19:15:02|Mike Tracy|Re: Specs on Brent's designs|Brent,  How's the headroom and draft on the 26 footer?   Mike  To:             	origamiboats@yahoogroups.com From:           	brentswain38@... Date sent:      	Wed, 07 Nov 2001 20:35:07 -0000 Send reply to:  	origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject:        	[origamiboats] Re: Specs on Brent's designs   I can't imagine why you'd want to sit in the driving rain in an  open cockpit in raingear, just to look stylishly foolish, when  you  could be in a pilothouse , warm and dry in a t shirt sipping on a  hot  chocolate reading dry charts.  both the 36 and 31 footers have lots of headroom. If you  dropped  the floor of the 36 as far as it can go you'd have almost 7 foot  headroom in the trunk cabin and 8 ft in the wheelhouse. We  usually go  for 6ft 2 inch headroom and make the bilge into tankage.   The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch  draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280  lbs  empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs  keel  weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a  46  or 47 ft mast stepped on deck.  The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead  ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft  6  inch draft single long fin keel .   Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck .  Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin  cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the  bottom of the keel.  Altho I've built a 36 ft hull in ideal conditions, and shell (  hull  deck cabin cockpit , keels, skeg tacked together in 6 days, it  usually takes 2 to 3 weeks .   Morse cable on the trimtab works well for inside steering, but  lately I've been using a shaft run from the transom under the  deck  with an arm sticking up linked to the trimtab and an arm inside  sticking down linked to the jogstick. Morse cable can corrode and  sieze up, and it's travel distance is limited. The solid  stainless  shaft will last forever and you can give it whatever travel you  need. Brent Swain   Michael Tracy, IMUTS NATEC, NAS Oceana miket@..., tracym@... 433-5489, 4600, 5821|
379|379|2001-11-08 13:04:13|Alex Christie|Kobella - a 36 footer|For new members to the group, I have posted photos of Kobella in the  photo section. This is a fine 36 footer located on the British  Columbia coast.  I think it is a good example of the type, and the  photos show some details that are typical hallmarks of Swain boats.   These are: "ship"-style main cabin hatch, owner-built manual anchor  winch, pilot house and more. What sets these boats apart from other  is that the plans and the book provide details for constructing  nearly everything on the boat, obviating the need to purchase  expense "marine" parts of dubious quality.   I think Brent has dealt very well with the age-old adage:"The most  important piece of equipment will always fail when you need it the  most", and has engineered the accessories to deal with the worst  conditions one typically meets.  There is a lot of store-bought  equipment out there which is only designed to look pretty and  function on a shelf in a marine store.   Alex Christie (moderator)|
380|380|2001-11-11 14:25:54|paull01@yahoo.com|Email Onboard|Brent,  I was curious about your email setup. You said you've been living  aboard with very little need for expense. I was wondering how you  communicate with email. Do you use an HF setup? Do you have to go  through an ISP?  Paul Woodinville,WA|
381|381|2001-11-11 20:58:27|Alex Christie|Origamiboats group: 6 New photo albums|Dear Group,  For the benefit of new members, I have added six new albums of photos  to the Photo section. Some of the albums are a repeat of those in the  old Files section, re-created in the Photo section for ease of  viewing with thumbnails.  Of particular interest to everyone may be the "Building Sequence"  photo album, which I have re-organized to follow the actual lay-out  and building sequence of a typical 36 footer, from plate as delivered  to basic hull (sans keels and skeg). The views which follow most  logically are the "Paul's boat" photo file, which shows a hull in one  piece before painting.  Also added are snapshots of Brent Swain's own 31 footer, and the  newest 40 footer (there are two now) in the South Pacific.  The Dove  III album shows the 26 footer built on Vancouver Island and sailed  through the Canadian Arctic Northwest Passage (there is a great book  available about this exploit).  The new home page photo shows designer Brent Swain's 31 footer  standing proud on a drying mudflat.  The twin bilge keels and skeg  assure a steady footing.   It is great to see more people joining the group every day (about 5 a  day now).  Please feel free to post any questions and thoughts you  may have to the group any time.  Alex Christie (moderator)|
382|382|2001-11-14 15:17:35|winslow59@yahoo.com|MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an  article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six  fotos.  Metal Boat Society: http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php  -- also --   Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting  article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra  thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the  classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the  aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. META http://www.reducostall.com  I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats --  and reading personal experiences and opinions.|
383|382|2001-11-14 19:08:43|Doug Barnard|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the current issue...  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler   > -----Original Message----- > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > fotos. > Metal Boat Society: > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > -- also -- > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > META > http://www.reducostall.com > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
384|382|2001-11-14 19:30:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|Doug, What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing with Rhino and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of paper and assembled.  Gary H. Lucas  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META   > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > current issue... > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > > fotos. > > Metal Boat Society: > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > -- also -- > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > META > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
385|382|2001-11-14 19:49:38|Doug Lind|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made out of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now considering steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am looking at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I will take it from there. Thank you Doug  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META   > Doug, > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing with Rhino > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of paper > and assembled. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > > current issue... > > > > ___________________________ > > Doug Barnard > > currently in design phase of > > "Iron Lotus" > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > > > fotos. > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > META > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
386|382|2001-11-14 20:26:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|Doug, You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked.  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META   > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made out > of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now considering > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am looking > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I will > take it from there. > Thank you > Doug > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > Doug, > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing with > Rhino > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of > paper > > and assembled. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > > > current issue... > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > Doug Barnard > > > currently in design phase of > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes six > > > > fotos. > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > META > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
387|382|2001-11-14 20:54:25|Doug Lind|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug a Doug Barnard  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META   > Doug, > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made > out > > of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now considering > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > looking > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I will > > take it from there. > > Thank you > > Doug > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing with > > Rhino > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of > > paper > > > and assembled. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on the > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has an > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes > six > > > > > fotos. > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an interesting > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and the > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > META > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
388|382|2001-11-15 09:02:37|Gary H. Lucas|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|Sorry about that!  So what is leaning you towards steel?  I work in aluminum every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in the commercial greenhouse industry.  After owning several fiberglass boats I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis.  Gary H. Lucas  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META   > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > a Doug Barnard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > Doug, > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) made > > out > > > of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now considering > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > > looking > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I > will > > > take it from there. > > > Thank you > > > Doug > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing with > > > Rhino > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out of > > > paper > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on > the > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) has > an > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- includes > > six > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > interesting > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and > the > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > META > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META sailboats -- > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
389|382|2001-11-15 13:45:03|Doug Barnard|origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...)|Here I am!  I, too, am using Rhino 2 to get my developable plates. I'm just about ready to try the first printout at 1/2" = 1 foot scale. The actual hull design is the 48' LRC from Charles Wittholz. By taking the table of offsets from any design, you can (hopefully) convert it to an origami boat. Once I get this model completed, I'll do the deck house as well, all of the parts that I'd have CNC cut.  The one problem that I'm having is to make the bow plates concave. I'm assuming that once the hull is welded up, the bow can be pulled in with come-alongs to form against the crash bulkhead (which has curved edges), just aft of the chain locker. Sound right?  I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in this?  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler     > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@...] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > Doug, > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing > with Rhino > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut > out of paper > and assembled. |
390|382|2001-11-15 13:50:55|jmatt@earthlink.net|Re: origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...)|It would be very helpful. Begining Rhino student here.  JM   >On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:46:23 -0800, you wrote:  >I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, >for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in >this? > >___________________________ |
391|391|2001-11-15 14:05:44|Alex & Kim Christie|converting offsets to origami templates|Doug,  Your project sounds very interesting, especially the aspect of converting any table of offsets to origami-style building.  I'd guess that after trying it with the real steel that there would be some aspects of steel behaviour that are hard to predict, but this information could be fed back into the design for improvement.  By all means feel free to put something in the files about it!  Alex Christie (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...)   > Here I am! > > I, too, am using Rhino 2 to get my developable plates. I'm just about ready > to try the first printout at 1/2" = 1 foot scale. The actual hull design is > the 48' LRC from Charles Wittholz. By taking the table of offsets from any > design, you can (hopefully) convert it to an origami boat. Once I get this > model completed, I'll do the deck house as well, all of the parts that I'd > have CNC cut. > > The one problem that I'm having is to make the bow plates concave. I'm > assuming that once the hull is welded up, the bow can be pulled in with > come-alongs to form against the crash bulkhead (which has curved edges), > just aft of the chain locker. Sound right? > > I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, > for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in > this? > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@...] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > Doug, > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing > > with Rhino > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut > > out of paper > > and assembled. > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
392|392|2001-11-15 14:06:50|Alex & Kim Christie|Rhino URL?|Doug, can you send URL for Rhino for us all to check out?   ----- Original Message ----- From: <jmatt@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami trawler (was MBQ & Brent...)   > It would be very helpful. Begining Rhino student here. > JM > > >On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:46:23 -0800, you wrote: > > >I'm thinking about writing a little tutorial on how I converted my offsets, > >for public perusal in the origamiboats library. Would there be interest in > >this? > > > >___________________________ > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
393|392|2001-11-15 17:22:35|Doug Barnard|Re: Rhino URL?|> Doug, can you send URL for Rhino for us all to check out?   http://www.rhino3d.com/  DB|
394|391|2001-11-15 17:22:42|Doug Barnard|Re: converting offsets to origami templates|Well, here's the reader's Digest condensed version- it may take me a while to get the full tutorial done.  So far, the only type of surface that I've found that can take advantage of the "Unroll Developable Surface" command is a "Sweep 2 Rails". This requires longitudinal lines, like the chine and the sheer, and a *straight* line that sweeps along them. The two rails can be a "Curve: Interpolate Points", which allows for the control knots to be right on the vertices. This makes for smooth longitudinal lines that pass though exact coordinates.  So you grab the Table of Offsets of the source design, and begin inputting. The way that I do this is to make a square that has one corner at 0,0 and the other corner at the measurements called for in the offsets. I draw a series of squares for each station, then draw *separate* Polylines that snap to the corners of the squares. Once I have my transverse profile polylines, I then move them into position along the longitudinal axis according to the distance that the station is from the datum point. So station 0 is at zero, station 1 moves in 2'6", or whatever. You go through the entire table, making your ribs and moving them into position.  So now your have something that looks like half of a boat. Making sure that your Osnap is turned on to End (points), draw a continuous Curve: Interpolate Points that snaps to each of the transverse vertices. Select the line segment at station 0, and Sweep 2 Rails. After you have done this for all of the longitudnals, you can select the surface strips and Unroll Developable Surface. These strips can be saved as .dwg (AutoCAD drawing), and taken into AutoCAD to be plotted to the scale of your fancy. Then, using a spray adhesive like Scotch 99, and working outside, attach the printout to poster board and cut out with an X-Acto, or whatever.  Does this make sense? Anyone feel free to ask questions.  One problem that I've had is in the line to swept. Let's say that you want to make a boat with a curved transom. Even though the line is curved in a way that's parallel to the surface, and the surface should "see" it as a straight line, I can't seem to unroll the resultant surface. Maybe somebody else might have better luck than I at this; if so, please share!  Also, there are gaps between the strips. I don't know if this is due to lack of display precision, or whether these gaps are going to be show stoppers. I'm doing all of my conceptual modeling in discreet 3ds max, not because it's necessarily better, but because I know it very well. Anyway, I can see that the gaps are there when I import the file in via IGES, and I need to weld shut the vertices of the polygonal mesh. When I build my physical model, I'll be looking closely to see if I can easily close the gaps. I'll be outputting the .dwg file at 1/2" = 1 foot, or 2' long for my boat, so that should be big enough to be able to tell.  Another thing is that I'll need to produce two Rhino models; one that is strictly for unrolling, and another that has the actual hull concavity up around the bow so that I can plot the bow crash bulkhead.  I wish that I could get the file to work without these disquieting anomalies, so anyone please sing out if you have answers! ShipConstructor's ShipCAM sounds like it could do the trick, but 9 grand for software is a bit out of my league.  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler|
395|382|2001-11-15 21:30:29|Russ Ashworth|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META| At 09:01 AM 11/15/01 -0500, Gary H. Lucas wrote:   Sorry about that!  So what is leaning you towards steel?  I work in aluminum every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in the commercial greenhouse industry.  After owning several fiberglass boats I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. There is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear.  Russ Ashworth  "Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling.   |
396|391|2001-11-15 22:13:09|jmatt@earthlink.net|Re: converting offsets to origami templates|On Thu, 15 Nov 2001 14:23:57 -0800, you wrote:   >Well, here's the reader's Digest condensed version- it may take me a while >to get the full tutorial done.   Thanks, thats more than I knew before.  Some pondering time required here. JM|
397|397|2001-11-15 22:37:05|Alex & Kim Christie|aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo|          I think the first name of the fellow who is  building the Swain hull in Nanaimo is Arkon.  Ring a bell for anyone for  the last name?   Alex Christie (moderator)    There    is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene    Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the    name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear.   Russ Ashworth  |
398|382|2001-11-15 22:58:13|douglind@shaw.ca|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|I have just discovered this site and it is quite interesting. I am  leaning towards steel instead of of aluminum for a couple of reasons.  I had reservations about rusting out from the inside on steel but  here I have learned that with proper preperation of the hull this  doesn't have to be a worry. The other concern I had was resale value.  Here I also found out that the original cost is a lot less so that  would explain the difference. I think a steel hull is also stronger  than aluminum, and there is the electrolysis on aluminum. I know this  can be controlled but it is not such a worry with a steel hull.    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Sorry about that!  So what is leaning you towards steel?  I work in  aluminum > every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion  resistant, in > the commercial greenhouse industry.  After owning several  fiberglass boats > I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as  electrolysis. >  > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META >  >  > > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > > a Doug Barnard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why  I asked. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain  design) > made > > > out > > > > of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now > considering > > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder  so I am > > > looking > > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's  book so I > > will > > > > take it from there. > > > > Thank you > > > > Doug > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some  playing > with > > > > Rhino > > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then  cut out > of > > > > paper > > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the  section on > > the > > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 -  no.4) > has > > an > > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- > includes > > > six > > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > > interesting > > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use  of extra > > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  -  without the > > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine  hull) and > > the > > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > > META > > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META > sailboats -- > > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms  of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > > |
399|397|2001-11-16 00:27:26|Darryl Carriere|Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo|          his name is Erkan   at 250 755  7810 Darryl     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Alex &    Kim Christie    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 15, 2001 7:39    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] aluminum swain    hull in Nanaimo      I think the first name of the fellow who is    building the Swain hull in Nanaimo is Arkon.  Ring a bell for anyone for    the last name?       Alex Christie   (moderator)       There      is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene      Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the      name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear.     Russ AshworthTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
400|397|2001-11-16 09:43:26|arthur nogueira|Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo|            Hello!,   My  name is Arthur Nogueira and I have been following your discussion for a while. I  could not, however, visit the site where I hear everybody saying there are lots  of photos. Could you please help me with how to get there?  Thanks.   Regards,   Arthur     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Alex & Kim Christie    [mailto:ravencoast@...]<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 15, 2001    10:39 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo   I think the first name of the fellow who is    building the Swain hull in Nanaimo is Arkon.  Ring a bell for anyone for    the last name?       Alex Christie   (moderator)       There      is an aluminum Swain boat in a yard at the top of the hill in Nanaimo. Gene      Wunderlin took me to see it a couple of years ago but I can't remember the      name of the guy who is building it. He makes self steering gear.     Russ AshworthTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
401|382|2001-11-16 10:05:02|arthur nogueira|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|Hi!  I am interested in metal boats (I have a fiberglass one currently), but all I ever heard seemed clearly biased towards aluminum. Have you read Michael Kasten's comments at http://www.kastenmarine.com/ ? Three conclusions seemed obvious to me: a) for the same weight, aluminum is stronger; b) aluminum will not corrode from the inside; c) electrolysis is fully controllable. It remains that aluminum is more expensive. But then there is the fact that you do not have to paint aluminum above the water line. Kasten's conclusions are, and I quote:  "In choosing between steel and aluminum, the deciding points are mainly in the realms of:  I. Budget: Many builders can provide an alloy vessel for less money if it is not painted, except on the bottom.  II. Maintenance: What is not painted will not need to be re-painted.  III. Resale: An aluminum boat will have a much higher resale, allowing any minor difference in original cost to be more than recovered.  IV. Weight: As we've seen, aluminum wins this one, and in a larger vessel, will permit lighter displacement, a smaller engine, and greater range.  V. Carrying Capacity: Less weight being given to structure will allow more to be put into fuel or cargo.  VI. Stability: Aluminum wins again due to being lighter and therefore permitting weights to be lower down. With correct design, adjusting the vessel to suit the material, there is no reason to prefer one material or the other, unless steel will be top-heavy for a given vessel size restriction.  VII. Strength: The overall point to be kept in mind is that an aluminum structure can be made with much larger scantlings, the same or greater strength, and still be much lighter than a similar structure in steel.  In simple terms, aluminum is structurally more "efficient" than steel."  Would you mind further elaborating on your favoring steel? In particular in relation to the preparation of the hull to avoid inside corrosion? Maybe I am missing something here and I would rather make an informed decision before actually starting to cut through sheets of metal.  Thanks.  Arthur  -----Original Message----- From: douglind@... [mailto:douglind@...] Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META    I have just discovered this site and it is quite interesting. I am  leaning towards steel instead of of aluminum for a couple of reasons.  I had reservations about rusting out from the inside on steel but  here I have learned that with proper preperation of the hull this  doesn't have to be a worry. The other concern I had was resale value.  Here I also found out that the original cost is a lot less so that  would explain the difference. I think a steel hull is also stronger  than aluminum, and there is the electrolysis on aluminum. I know this  can be controlled but it is not such a worry with a steel hull.    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <garyhl@m...> wrote: > Sorry about that!  So what is leaning you towards steel?  I work in  aluminum > every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion  resistant, in > the commercial greenhouse industry.  After owning several  fiberglass boats > I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as  electrolysis. >  > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META >  >  > > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > > a Doug Barnard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why  I asked. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@s...> > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain  design) > made > > > out > > > > of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now > considering > > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder  so I am > > > looking > > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's  book so I > > will > > > > take it from there. > > > > Thank you > > > > Doug > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@m...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some  playing > with > > > > Rhino > > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then  cut out > of > > > > paper > > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> > > > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the  section on > > the > > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: winslow59@y... [mailto:winslow59@y...] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 -  no.4) > has > > an > > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- > includes > > > six > > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > > interesting > > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use  of extra > > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  -  without the > > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine  hull) and > > the > > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > > META > > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META > sailboats -- > > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms  of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. > > > >    To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
402|402|2001-11-16 13:51:25|winslow59@yahoo.com|Apologies for lack of clarity re: MBQ article. |I extend my apologies to the board if I gave the impression the MBQ  article by Brent Swain, or the META article, are available online.   Metal Boat Quarterly, the magazine puplished by the Metal Boat  Society, is mailed to MBS members and not available on newsstands or  online (currently). I thought some mention of it here would provide  an opportunity for those interested to seek out a copy of the  magazine.  You can go here: http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/members.php to request a sample copy of the MBQ and get information about the MBS.  Note: Other than being a MBS member (primarily to get the magazine),  I have no affiliation with MBS.|
406|391|2001-11-16 23:00:09|Gary H. Lucas|Re: converting offsets to origami templates|Doug, On the Rhino newsgroup I describe myself as a block and cylinder guy, not the sexy curves kind, so there is a lot I don't know about using Rhino. However I don't think what you are describing would be considered an Origami type of construction in the Brent Swain context.  The construction I believe you described is more like the Van De Stadt type of construction.  A while back Alex posted a file that you could print, cutout and tape together to see how a Swain hull goes together.  I posted a revised version with lines showing how ALL the elements of the single sheet of metal which forms a Swain hull are actually CONICAL sections which you would form in Rhino using Rail Revolve not 2 Rail Sweep.  You might look for that file to see what I am talking about.  If you are interested I can send you my crude Rhino model that may help you understand how I came to this conclusion.  I printed the model out on paper and cut out the two hull sides, the transom and a deck, then taped them together to prove that all the surfaces would assemble properly.  In reality no metal stretching is required to pull the hull together properly, so a very accurate pattern can be made and assembled. Brent welds in the angle iron longitudinals that warps the metal slightly and the result is that the conical sections become somewhat spherical and actually makes the hull even fairer.  The construction you describe depends on very accurate assembly and very careful welding to produce a fair hull. Brents method almost guarantees a fair hull.  I use the term 'fair' here to describe a hull where all the curves blend smoothly into one another and there are no 'hollows' where the curves reverse.  I am not sure of the terminology though so my description may be a little off. My model is not a very good looking boat, but it proves the point of Origami construction.  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:23 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] converting offsets to origami templates   > Well, here's the reader's Digest condensed version- it may take me a while > to get the full tutorial done. > > So far, the only type of surface that I've found that can take advantage of > the "Unroll Developable Surface" command is a "Sweep 2 Rails". This requires > longitudinal lines, like the chine and the sheer, and a *straight* line that > sweeps along them. The two rails can be a "Curve: Interpolate Points", which > allows for the control knots to be right on the vertices. This makes for > smooth longitudinal lines that pass though exact coordinates. > > So you grab the Table of Offsets of the source design, and begin inputting. > The way that I do this is to make a square that has one corner at 0,0 and > the other corner at the measurements called for in the offsets. I draw a > series of squares for each station, then draw *separate* Polylines that snap > to the corners of the squares. Once I have my transverse profile polylines, > I then move them into position along the longitudinal axis according to the > distance that the station is from the datum point. So station 0 is at zero, > station 1 moves in 2'6", or whatever. You go through the entire table, > making your ribs and moving them into position. > > So now your have something that looks like half of a boat. Making sure that > your Osnap is turned on to End (points), draw a continuous Curve: > Interpolate Points that snaps to each of the transverse vertices. Select the > line segment at station 0, and Sweep 2 Rails. After you have done this for > all of the longitudnals, you can select the surface strips and Unroll > Developable Surface. These strips can be saved as .dwg (AutoCAD drawing), > and taken into AutoCAD to be plotted to the scale of your fancy. Then, using > a spray adhesive like Scotch 99, and working outside, attach the printout to > poster board and cut out with an X-Acto, or whatever. > > Does this make sense? Anyone feel free to ask questions. > > One problem that I've had is in the line to swept. Let's say that you want > to make a boat with a curved transom. Even though the line is curved in a > way that's parallel to the surface, and the surface should "see" it as a > straight line, I can't seem to unroll the resultant surface. Maybe somebody > else might have better luck than I at this; if so, please share! > > Also, there are gaps between the strips. I don't know if this is due to lack > of display precision, or whether these gaps are going to be show stoppers. > I'm doing all of my conceptual modeling in discreet 3ds max, not because > it's necessarily better, but because I know it very well. Anyway, I can see > that the gaps are there when I import the file in via IGES, and I need to > weld shut the vertices of the polygonal mesh. When I build my physical > model, I'll be looking closely to see if I can easily close the gaps. I'll > be outputting the .dwg file at 1/2" = 1 foot, or 2' long for my boat, so > that should be big enough to be able to tell. > > Another thing is that I'll need to produce two Rhino models; one that is > strictly for unrolling, and another that has the actual hull concavity up > around the bow so that I can plot the bow crash bulkhead. > > I wish that I could get the file to work without these disquieting > anomalies, so anyone please sing out if you have answers! ShipConstructor's > ShipCAM sounds like it could do the trick, but 9 grand for software is a bit > out of my league. > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > |
407|391|2001-11-17 16:20:06|Doug Barnard|Re: converting offsets to origami templates|> From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@...]   <snip>   > However I don't think what you are describing would be considered > an Origami > type of construction in the Brent Swain context.  The > construction I believe > you described is more like the Van De Stadt type of construction.   Ah! Excellent discourse here! I was wondering the same. It was for this type of feedback that I posted my methodology. I'm no great shakes at Rhino myself, or at computer-aided hull design. Having to sit there with my hat in my hands, as experts told me what was what, hasn't been a problem since I got out of my teens! <grin>   > A while > back Alex posted a file that you could print, cutout and tape together to > see how a Swain hull goes together.  I posted a revised version with lines > showing how ALL the elements of the single sheet of metal which forms a > Swain hull are actually CONICAL sections which you would form in > Rhino using > Rail Revolve not 2 Rail Sweep.  You might look for that file to see what I > am talking about.  If you are interested I can send you my crude > Rhino model   Yes, please do! I'll send you my model as well. Please post any commentary that you have on it for any that would like to make additional comments. When it comes to putting my hard earned $$$ on the line to build a big damn boat, my ego takes a backseat! <grin>  <snip>   > In reality no metal stretching is required to pull the hull > together properly, so a very accurate pattern can be made and assembled.   Can't wait to see it!  <snip>   > actually makes the hull even fairer.  The construction you > describe depends > on very accurate assembly and very careful welding to produce a fair hull.   In Brent's book, he describes cutting out six square panels, and saying that the only way to put them together will form a cube (I paraphrase here). When you see the strips that are formed by the Unroll process, you can see that their curves aren't "parallel"; that they require bending to be able to put them together. When I build my 2 foot model, I'll be able to see this more clearly. I'll be sure to post pictures.  I can see that having transverse patterns, from various stations, would be a handy thing when welding up the hull. Maybe even tack on the side decks before attaching the hulls together?   > My > model is not a > very good looking boat, but it proves the point of Origami construction.   One of the reasons that I went with the strip approach is that the hull lines seemed to want it. The lines of the trawler are more broad through the design than the sleeker lines of Brent's boats. Maybe it's a lack of expertise on my part, or maybe its one of those ragbag vs. smokepot things. More work is definitely called for!  I think that what were doing here is an important thing, in that with the refinement of these techniques, we can make it so that basically *any* chined boat can be built cheaply and efficiently by backyard builders. Whether it's origami, Van De Stadt, or some mix of the two remains to be seen. I just want to get myself going on the waterways! One of the big messages that I got from Brent's writings is that origami-type construction is the fastest way to get from Point A (boatless) to Point B (cruising the world in an optimum, paid-for yacht).  Last weekend, I took a tour of a total-Bristol Nordhavn 46 that is going down to the south coast of Mexico in a few weeks. Absolutely phenomenal trawler, incredibly well set up. I just checked my accounts, and I seem to be a bit shy of the $500K to go out and get my own!  Hmmm... maybe if I check under the couch for dropped change?  Thanks for the response!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler|
408|391|2001-11-17 21:11:14|Alex Christie|The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht|Very interesting experimentation going on here with Rhino 3D being  used to unwrap a chined boat.    Might I direct some of our common thought toward the idea of a short,  fat power vessel? While it is the antithesis of the sleek, ocean- crossing sailboats, it has some virtue for the mostly dock-bound  liveaboards.  While I am planning to build the 40 foot sailboat, it has struck me  that for those who plan to travel only coastal routes a trawler-type  yacht would suit fine. If you are to be a full-time liveaboard with  95% of time to be spent tied to the dock, then the need for an ocean  crossing mast and sails is also downgraded, and the money can be  either saved or plowed into on-board luxuries.  A nice big good- looking steel power vessel could really fit the bill.  36 feet of  power vessel on a wider beam than the sailboat would likely produce a  liveaboard of very spacious accommodations, easily on par with the 40  foot sailboat, would it not?    Phil Bolger once did a fun workup of a "Trawler Houseboat", only 30  feet or so long, very beamy, and quite lofty. While not intended for  ocean-crossings, it was seaworthy (he made no promises for comfort,  but did indicate that it wouldn't sink in big waves - ie the crew  would be worn out long before the boat was).    The origami system works very well with moderately-beamed hulls; I  wonder what extra reinforcements other than longitudinals and  bulkheads would be needed for stiffening the larger skin surface  areas of a high-sided power vessel?  It is such a different kind of  hull that it is likely to need a lot of thought to do it right.  Something to think about.  Alex Christie  (moderator)   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:garyhl@m...] >  > <snip> >  > > However I don't think what you are describing would be considered > > an Origami > > type of construction in the Brent Swain context.  The > > construction I believe > > you described is more like the Van De Stadt type of construction. >  > Ah! Excellent discourse here! I was wondering the same. It was for  this type > of feedback that I posted my methodology. I'm no great shakes at  Rhino > myself, or at computer-aided hull design. Having to sit there with  my hat in > my hands, as experts told me what was what, hasn't been a problem  since I > got out of my teens! <grin> >  > > A while > > back Alex posted a file that you could print, cutout and tape  together to > > see how a Swain hull goes together.  I posted a revised version  with lines > > showing how ALL the elements of the single sheet of metal which  forms a > > Swain hull are actually CONICAL sections which you would form in > > Rhino using > > Rail Revolve not 2 Rail Sweep.  You might look for that file to  see what I > > am talking about.  If you are interested I can send you my crude > > Rhino model >  > Yes, please do! I'll send you my model as well. Please post any  commentary > that you have on it for any that would like to make additional  comments. > When it comes to putting my hard earned $$$ on the line to build a  big damn > boat, my ego takes a backseat! <grin> >  > <snip> >  > > In reality no metal stretching is required to pull the hull > > together properly, so a very accurate pattern can be made and  assembled. >  > Can't wait to see it! >  > <snip> >  > > actually makes the hull even fairer.  The construction you > > describe depends > > on very accurate assembly and very careful welding to produce a  fair hull. >  > In Brent's book, he describes cutting out six square panels, and  saying that > the only way to put them together will form a cube (I paraphrase  here). When > you see the strips that are formed by the Unroll process, you can  see that > their curves aren't "parallel"; that they require bending to be  able to put > them together. When I build my 2 foot model, I'll be able to see  this more > clearly. I'll be sure to post pictures. >  > I can see that having transverse patterns, from various stations,  would be a > handy thing when welding up the hull. Maybe even tack on the side  decks > before attaching the hulls together? >  > > My > > model is not a > > very good looking boat, but it proves the point of Origami  construction. >  > One of the reasons that I went with the strip approach is that the  hull > lines seemed to want it. The lines of the trawler are more broad  through the > design than the sleeker lines of Brent's boats. Maybe it's a lack of > expertise on my part, or maybe its one of those ragbag vs. smokepot  things. > More work is definitely called for! >  > I think that what were doing here is an important thing, in that  with the > refinement of these techniques, we can make it so that basically  *any* > chined boat can be built cheaply and efficiently by backyard  builders. > Whether it's origami, Van De Stadt, or some mix of the two remains  to be > seen. I just want to get myself going on the waterways! One of the  big > messages that I got from Brent's writings is that origami-type  construction > is the fastest way to get from Point A (boatless) to Point B  (cruising the > world in an optimum, paid-for yacht). >  > Last weekend, I took a tour of a total-Bristol Nordhavn 46 that is  going > down to the south coast of Mexico in a few weeks. Absolutely  phenomenal > trawler, incredibly well set up. I just checked my accounts, and I  seem to > be a bit shy of the $500K to go out and get my own! >  > Hmmm... maybe if I check under the couch for dropped change? >  > Thanks for the response! >  > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler |
409|397|2001-11-17 21:13:58|Alex Christie|Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo|Dear group,  I had a look in Nanaimo for the Erkan aluminum Swain hull, hoping to  capture some images for our photo files, but did not find it on  Prideaux where the train tracks cross it.  Perhaps he has moved it,  or launched it?  Anyone have some info on this?  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
410|397|2001-11-17 22:35:42|Daryl Carriere|Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo|I just talked to Erkan on the phone , his boat is still in his yard at 145  Prideaux.   The tracks cross Prideaux in two places. Darryl    >From: "Alex Christie" <ravencoast@...> >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 02:13:54 -0000 > >Dear group, > >I had a look in Nanaimo for the Erkan aluminum Swain hull, hoping to >capture some images for our photo files, but did not find it on >Prideaux where the train tracks cross it.  Perhaps he has moved it, >or launched it?  Anyone have some info on this? > >Alex Christie > >(moderator) > > >    _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp|
411|397|2001-11-18 00:40:18|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: location of aluminum swain hull in Nanaimo|Ahah, it was in the back of my mind that this may have been the case, the tracks crossing the road twice, but I didn't act on it.  Will attempt another try on my way back up Vancouver Island on Monday.  Everyone keep their eyes peeled for new photos, should I have some success!  Alex Christie  (moderator)  --- Daryl Carriere <darryl_marlene@...> wrote:  > I just talked to Erkan on the phone , his boat is > still in his yard at 145  > Prideaux.   The tracks cross Prideaux in two places. > Darryl >     _______________________________________________________ Build your own website in minutes and for free at http://ca.geocities.com|
412|412|2001-11-18 07:58:40|kupris1948@ameritech.net|inorganic zinc rich primer recoat time, is there any?|I would like to leisurely sandblast an interior and prime as I go. I  work alone and outside. I want to overcoat the zinc primer with coal  tar epoxy . Will there be a time limit between zinc and zinc or zinc  and coal tar?  John.|
413|391|2001-11-18 13:11:13|Doug Barnard|Re: The need for a compact liveaboard trawler yacht|> From: Alex Christie [mailto:ravencoast@...]  > Might I direct some of our common thought toward the idea of a short, > fat power vessel? While it is the antithesis of the sleek, ocean- > crossing sailboats, it has some virtue for the mostly dock-bound > liveaboards.   Great point, Alex. As cool as the Swain designs are, they are just one kind of boat. To me, one of the most appealing things about building a boat for myself is that I can build exactly what will be of the most use to *me*. Trying to fit into other molds ain't what it's about, man!  I'll continue to share successes and failures with the list as I work through the design process. Hey, I don't want to share my anchorages exclusively with leased fiberglass eyesores!   > Phil Bolger once did a fun workup of a "Trawler Houseboat", only 30 > feet or so long, very beamy, and quite lofty. While not intended for > ocean-crossings, it was seaworthy (he made no promises for comfort, > but did indicate that it wouldn't sink in big waves - ie the crew > would be worn out long before the boat was).   Sounds suspiciously like the infamous "Busted Flush", owned by John D. MacDonald's fictitious Travis McGee!   > The origami system works very well with moderately-beamed hulls; I > wonder what extra reinforcements other than longitudinal and > bulkheads would be needed for stiffening the larger skin surface > areas of a high-sided power vessel?  It is such a different kind of > hull that it is likely to need a lot of thought to do it right.   This is of concern to me, as well. Brent tells us that when traditional designs are holed, it tends to happen at the transverse ribs. I have the feeling that I'll need to add some rib/bulkhead bracing, but how much?  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler|
414|412|2001-11-20 12:55:56|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: inorganic zinc rich primer recoat time, is there any?|If you look in the ICI Devoe coatings website they have tehnical data  sheets.  Catha-cote 302 reinforced inorganic zinc primer seems to  have a (self) recoat time of 90 days depending on conditions.   International paints uses a different system that appears to be  fairly fussy by comparison.  Note that some manufacturers have  replaced coal tar products recently because of the toxicity.  They  claim that some of the mastics will outperform coal-tar without the  hazards.  They may cost more too?  There are disclaimers attatched to  the data sheets that relate to intercoat delamination--contact your  supplier is the last word.    --- In origamiboats@y..., kupris1948@a... wrote: > I would like to leisurely sandblast an interior and prime as I go.  I  > work alone and outside. I want to overcoat the zinc primer with  coal  > tar epoxy . Will there be a time limit between zinc and zinc or  zinc  > and coal tar?  John. |
415|382|2001-11-20 14:21:18|Doug Lind|Re: MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META|A lot of the reasons why steel was not my first choice are not there anymore. My major concern was that of floating around in a bucket of rust. I have learned that with proper preparation of the hull it will not rust out from the inside in 10 years. The second was resale value as this is still lower by far for a steel sailboat than one out of aluminum. Bringing into the fact that building a steel hull is a lot less, this concern has diminished. A steel will take more abuse  and it does not have the same electrolysis as an aluminum hull. I haven't made my mind up completely yet, but these are the reasons why I am leaning towards steel.  ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META   > Sorry about that!  So what is leaning you towards steel?  I work in aluminum > every day, for machinery that needs to be light and corrosion resistant, in > the commercial greenhouse industry.  After owning several fiberglass boats > I've always wanted an aluminum boat, despite such issues as electrolysis. > > Gary H. Lucas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:56 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > If you follow the thread down there is a different Doug > > a Doug Barnard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 5:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > Doug, > > > You mentioned 48'. Brent only has designs to 36', which is why I asked. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Doug Lind" <douglind@...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:51 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking of buying a hull from Winfield (Brent Swain design) > made > > > out > > > > of aluminum but after reading someof  these threads I an now > considering > > > > steel. I am only part way through. I am not much of a welder so I am > > > looking > > > > at an already built hull. I have just ordered Brent Swain's book so I > > will > > > > take it from there. > > > > Thank you > > > > Doug > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Gary H. Lucas <garyhl@...> > > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > What are you using to design your boat?  I have done some playing > with > > > > Rhino > > > > > and was able to create developable plates in 3d that I then cut out > of > > > > paper > > > > > and assembled. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@...> > > > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:10 PM > > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that you have to be a member to get into the section on > > the > > > > > > current issue... > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > Doug Barnard > > > > > > currently in design phase of > > > > > > "Iron Lotus" > > > > > > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: winslow59@... [mailto:winslow59@...] > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:17 PM > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] MBQ & Brent Swain -- plus META > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current issue of the Metal Boat Quarterly (vol.14 - no.4) > has > > an > > > > > > > article by Brent Swain titled, "Origami Boatbuilding" -- > includes > > > six > > > > > > > fotos. > > > > > > > Metal Boat Society: > > > > > > > http://www.metalboatsociety.com/mbs/index.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- also -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc Bouriche, of the French shipyard META, submitted an > > interesting > > > > > > > article about their Strongall building process ("...use of extra > > > > > > > thick aluminum plates to make a stressed skin  - without the > > > > > > > classical skeleton of ribs and rib-bands, double chine hull) and > > the > > > > > > > aluminum hull anti-corrosion product, Inversalu. > > > > > > > META > > > > > > > http://www.reducostall.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would be interested in learning more about the META > sailboats -- > > > > > > > and reading personal experiences and opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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416|416|2001-11-20 21:40:23|Alex Christie|New photos uploaded|Dear Group,  A day ago I dropped by to see Darryl Carriere's 36 foot steel Swain  sailboat, and took a few photos for the group photo files. The  snapshots are located in the album, "Darryl's Boat".  The profile  photo of his boat shows very well how fairness is acheived on these  hulls without the use of fillers.  Darryl has graciously loaned me many photos from his own collection  showing both his and other boats in build, as well as a few of an  Aluminum boat in Nanaimo.  When I wade over to the school to use the  scanner next week I'll scan them and post to the group.  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
417|417|2001-11-21 02:40:49|johnh94927@yahoo.com|Newcomer sez: Fantastic group|And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can start with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone gimme info on on this cool-lookin boat? AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a smaller 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty cool. And... And... And...|
418|417|2001-11-21 16:18:24|Stephen Wandling|Re: Newcomer sez: Fantastic group|John,  I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an Evan Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@...>.  Evan has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, BC Canada.  I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged boats.  Stephen  johnh94927@... wrote:   > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can start > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone gimme > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a smaller > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty cool. > And... > And... > And... > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                          ADVERTISEMENT    > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
419|419|2001-11-21 17:48:38|Alex & Kim Christie|Evan Shaler Junk|John,  The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler Junk" are indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler.  I am not sure, but I think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the Brent boats to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a 42 foot wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese junk.  CHINA CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, as well as the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of simple-living. Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I don't believe he did up actual plans.  With his long experience building Brent's boats he just "did it"!  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group   > John, > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an Evan > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@...>.  Evan > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, BC > Canada.  I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged > boats. > > Stephen > > johnh94927@... wrote: > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can start > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone gimme > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a smaller > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty cool. > > And... > > And... > > And... > > |
420|419|2001-11-21 19:12:20|Stephen Wandling|Re: Evan Shaler Junk|Alex,  I don't see "Shaler Junk" in the Photo Album, but I see the "Bellavial" listed under "42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner" in the Files section.  Is this Evan's boat? Stephen  Alex & Kim Christie wrote:   > John, > > The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler Junk" > are > indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler.  I am not sure, > but I > think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the Brent > boats > to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a 42 > foot > wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese junk. > CHINA > CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, as > well as > the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of > simple-living. > Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I don't > > believe he did up actual plans.  With his long experience building > Brent's > boats he just "did it"! > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > > > > John, > > > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is an > Evan > > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@...>. > Evan > > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in Nanaimo, > BC > > Canada.  I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk rigged > > boats. > > > > Stephen > > > > johnh94927@... wrote: > > > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can > start > > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, but > > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone > gimme > > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's steel > > > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a > smaller > > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked pretty > cool. > > > And... > > > And... > > > And... > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                          ADVERTISEMENT    > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
421|419|2001-11-21 20:23:12|Alex Christie|Re: Evan Shaler Junk|Stephen,  The photo album of 4 photos of the Shaler Junk are in the  new "Photos" section now offered on Yahoogroups (the photo of Bella  Via is in the old "Files" section, formerly the only place photos  could go).  After you click on "Photos" you'll see it three rows down  and two albums over from the left.  regards,  Alex Christie  (moderator)   --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > Alex, >  > I don't see "Shaler Junk" in the Photo Album, but I see  the "Bellavial" > listed under "42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner" in the Files > section.  Is this Evan's boat? > Stephen >  > Alex & Kim Christie wrote: >  > > John, > > > > The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler  Junk" > > are > > indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler.  I am not  sure, > > but I > > think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the  Brent > > boats > > to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a  42 > > foot > > wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese  junk. > > CHINA > > CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend,  as > > well as > > the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of > > simple-living. > > Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I  don't > > > > believe he did up actual plans.  With his long experience building > > Brent's > > boats he just "did it"! > > > > Alex Christie > > > > (moderator) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is  an > > Evan > > > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. > > Evan > > > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in  Nanaimo, > > BC > > > Canada.  I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk  rigged > > > boats. > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > johnh94927@y... wrote: > > > > > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can > > start > > > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk,  but > > > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone > > gimme > > > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's  steel > > > > > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a > > smaller > > > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked  pretty > > cool. > > > > And... > > > > And... > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                         ADVERTISEMENT >  >  > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service. |
422|419|2001-11-21 21:15:37|Stephen Wandling|Re: Evan Shaler Junk|Alex,  Ah, the mind works in strange and interesting ways.  For some time now, for reasons I don't think I even want the answers for, I have been going to the junkrig site at yahoo and looking for origami stuff.  I recall your fairly recent message about rearranging photos and recall that when I looked I couldn't find them.  Thanks for your patient guidance.  I have never seen these photos before.  What a beautiful boat and seeming homage to Allan Farrell's "China Cloud".  Is this boat engineless as it appears?  If so I am doubly impressed.  Thanks.  Stephen  Alex Christie wrote:   > Stephen, > > The photo album of 4 photos of the Shaler Junk are in the > new "Photos" section now offered on Yahoogroups (the photo of Bella > Via is in the old "Files" section, formerly the only place photos > could go).  After you click on "Photos" you'll see it three rows down > and two albums over from the left. > > regards, > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > Alex, > > > > I don't see "Shaler Junk" in the Photo Album, but I see > the "Bellavial" > > listed under "42' Steel Brent Swain junk schooner" in the Files > > section.  Is this Evan's boat? > > Stephen > > > > Alex & Kim Christie wrote: > > > > > John, > > > > > > The photos that you refer to in the photo album called "Shaler > Junk" > > > are > > > indeed of a vessel designed and built by Evan Shaler.  I am not > sure, > > > but I > > > think Evan Shaler modified the building technique used for the > Brent > > > boats > > > to build a steel version of Allen Farrell's famed CHINA CLOUD, a > 42 > > > foot > > > wooden sailboat with junk rig in the tradition of the chinese > junk. > > > CHINA > > > CLOUD is a rather famous boat on this coast, the stuff of legend, > as > > > well as > > > the builder, who lives a nomadic life aboard, a paragon of > > > simple-living. > > > Evan can answer more about this himself, or perhaps Brent, but I > don't > > > > > > believe he did up actual plans.  With his long experience building > > > > Brent's > > > boats he just "did it"! > > > > > > Alex Christie > > > > > > (moderator) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:17 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Newcomer sez: Fantastic group > > > > > > > > > > John, > > > > > > > > I am not clear on where you got the "SHaler Junk", but there is > an > > > Evan > > > > Shaler on this group and at evan shaler <evanmoonjunk@y...>. > > > Evan > > > > has built many of Brent's design for people at his site in > Nanaimo, > > > BC > > > > Canada.  I don't recall if he has been involved in any junk > rigged > > > > boats. > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > johnh94927@y... wrote: > > > > > > > > > And there's so much I want to know, of course... I guess I can > > > > start > > > > > with the SHaler Junk. I searched under shaler and under junk, > but > > > > > didn't come up with much of what i was lookin fer. can anyone > > > gimme > > > > > info on on this cool-lookin boat? > > > > > AND - anyone have any experience with any of Weston Farmer's > steel > > > > > > > > desings? THe 32' Tahitiana wasn't origami, but he designed a > > > smaller > > > > > 23' sloop - I've forgotten the design name - that looked > pretty > > > cool. > > > > > And... > > > > > And... > > > > > And... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >                         ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                              [Image]   > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
423|419|2001-11-21 22:38:36|origamiboats@telus.net|Shaler Junk engine|Yes, Evan has done a great job on his junk.   I believe the Shaler junk is powered by diesel engine.  Like  Farrell's CHINA CLOUD, it has twin keels, though I don't know if they  are more like Brent's boats or not. Evan's rudder appears to be fixed  on a skeg, as per the Brent boats, as opposed to Farrell's  traditional junk rudder which goes up and down with a block and  tackle. Some time Evan will sign in on this and set me straight on  the subject!  Alex   > I have never seen these photos before.  What a beautiful boat and > seeming homage to Allan Farrell's "China Cloud".  Is this boat > engineless as it appears?  If so I am doubly impressed. >  > Thanks. >  > Stephen > |
424|419|2001-11-22 22:12:15|evanmoonjunk@yahoo.com|Re: Shaler Junk engine|--- In origamiboats@y..., origamiboats@t... wrote:  > Yes, Evan has done a great job on his junk.  >  > I believe the Shaler junk is powered by diesel engine.  Like  > Farrell's CHINA CLOUD, it has twin keels, though I don't know if   they   > are more like Brent's boats or not. Evan's rudder appears to be   fixed   > on a skeg, as per the Brent boats, as opposed to Farrell's  > traditional junk rudder which goes up and down with a block and  > tackle. Some time Evan will sign in on this and set me straight on  > the subject! >  > Alex >  > > I have never seen these photos before.  What a beautiful boat and > > seeming homage to Allan Farrell's "China Cloud".  Is this boat > > engineless as it appears?  If so I am doubly impressed. > >  > > Thanks. > >  > > Stephen > >Hi Alex, I fanally checked in again to see what is going on, I   guess I should look at the pictures more often to see what's there!  Here are some answers to the questions flying around. The basic  construction is based on Brent's method with variations. All the  components are pulled together the same way except the bottom of the  hull. When I came up with the idea of building this boat(a long time  ago) I spent a great deal of time talking to Allen about China Cloud,  pros and cons etc. He insisted that a flat bottom was important so I  incorporated that into the design. So instead of a V as in Brent's  boats there is a section in the bottom that is flat(with a curve fore  and aft) that is shaped like the bottom of a dory.This made for  interesting challenges pulling 3 plates together for the hull but it  worked. If I was to do it again I would do it with a shallow V for  ease of construction and to get a bilge area which I don't have much  of now.  At the time that I conceived the idea to build this boat I had  already built quite a few of Brent's boats and wanted the challenge  of building something a little different. I developed the concept the  same that Brent did, with cardboard models. Allen had a wooden half  model of China Cloud plus his lines and ofsets(which are also in the  book about China Cloud, "Sailing back in time"). I started off with  half inch to the foot models geting the shape as close as I could to  the half model(about 7 of these) and then went to 1 inch to the foot (3 of these). From the final model I was abel to take accurate  measuerments to make scale drawings from which I could loft out the  hull, decks etc.  The boat draws about 4' 10". It is a lot heavier than China Cloud  because of steel, Engine, fuel tanks, twice as much water etc. I also  wanted to go deeper draft(extra 18") for better windward performance  which it did accomplish. The keels are bigger than I should have  gone. The length of them was based on China Cloud forgetting at the  time that a wood boat needs a lot more strutural support than a steel  boat. Oh well live and learn! There is 200 gallons of water in the  keels plus 2000 lbs of lead plus a sump in each end.  Yes there is an engine as in my last boat (a Brent 31') I could not  afford one ,this time I wanted one. I originally was going to go  hydraulic drive, but as I could not afford that either I settled for  an ancient 2 cylinder Hercules(circa 1945)  The rudder is fixed on a skeg using all the same methods as on  Brents boats. If you have any more questions feel free to ask and I  will be happy to answer them.....Evan|
425|425|2001-11-24 20:05:24|robertgm77@earthlink.net|Peugeot motors/ beamier boats|I am really enjoying all the discussion.All info is good from my standpoint.I am at the stage of either building a boat or buying  someone elses dream.I have the opportunity to buy a 36 ft steel Spray finished hull with a new 52hp Peugeot motor,maybe known as a Vetus motor.Does anyone have experience with these motors ? How about Sprays,pros,cons? I have done the usual research,Bruce Roberts website,books but do not know anyone who has sailed one.Re building a boat, has anyone built a beamy,ie 12 to 14 ft,cruiser 36 to 40 ft length via origami method ?|
426|426|2001-11-25 14:45:03|carlmbentley@yahoo.com|brent's book|hello all, great message board. i have several questions, but before i start asking - i'd like to buy the book to make sure i'm not missing anything. some quick questions first though, how much is that in u.s. $? is this still the correct address (see below)? is the book available year round ?  thanks in advance carl   >Suite #427  1434 Island Highway >Campbell River BC >Canada  >V9W8C9   >You can order a copy of Brent's book  >"How to Build a Better Steel Boat  >-- a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100  >pages paperback) send $20 plus $3  >for postage to the above address. |
427|425|2001-11-25 15:13:52|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Peugeot motors/ beamier boats|Re: Robert's question about the Spray:  Pros: Lot of purists poo-poo the Spray, but it is a great boat for living on --- being heavy and wide not much will throw it about.  Lots of people have made successful voyages in them, and are happy with their boats. Sailing upwind may not be their forte, but that hasn't stopped people from using them, same as with junk rig advocates. With all that beam, you are getting your money's worth when living in a marina compared to most any boat out there, and probably could live very comfortably a 35 foot Spray with aft cabin.  Lots of people on this coast, with its light summer winds, are very happy with their big Sprays, and don't mind firing up their big 120 hp Lehman diesels to get somewhere (the Spray is not a light air vessel, nor is it a light engine vessel).  I've read that they come into their own after 25 knots of wind. Anecdotes have also come in about how the sails blow out quite often because the boat is so stiff and won't yield to an oncoming blow.  Make sure you have a good set of storm sails, or religiously reduce sail on any rising wind.  Cons: It is likely better to buy a Spray from someone else has used ten years of their life building.  This is the heartbreaking truth about building heavy displacement boats with tons of extra bits to fit and weld. If you can get this finished Spray hull with engine, and all for a good price, and plan on living aboard full time, then go for it, why not! When building, boats cost by weight, not by length.  The steel Spray hull is one of the heaviest you can find, therefore it is easy to use up your building budget just getting out the basic hull, never mind finishing it off. Compared to the quick building of a Swain hull, the Roberts Spray will take you years to build with its mile and miles of internal framing.  The Swain hull is probably the lightest steel boat possible for a given length, is faster to build with less welding runs on the hull skin (hence less distortion), and requires no filling and fairing.  In Canada you can buy your steel pre-primed, avoiding the need to sandblast before painting.  Two 40' boats have been built using the origami methods, and one 39' is in build in Alberta.  I am planning on getting across the Big Water to Vancouver to see and photograph two of these boats this month, so keep an eye out for an anouncement on the board about them.  Also, I'll be seeing the 39 footer over Christmas holidays.  Regards,  Alex Christie  (moderator)    ----- Original Message ----- From: <robertgm77@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Peugeot motors/ beamier boats   > I am really enjoying all the discussion.All info is good from my > standpoint.I am at the stage of either building a boat or buying > someone elses dream.I have the opportunity to buy a 36 ft steel > Spray finished hull with a new 52hp Peugeot motor,maybe known as > a Vetus motor.Does anyone have experience with these motors ? How > about Sprays,pros,cons? I have done the usual research,Bruce Roberts > website,books but do not know anyone who has sailed one.Re building a > boat, has anyone built a beamy,ie 12 to 14 ft,cruiser 36 to 40 ft > length via origami method ? > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
428|426|2001-11-25 15:21:36|Stephen Wandling|Re: brent's book|I believe the address you have is an older address.  Brent's own recent directions to me were:    > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage (prefer  money  > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > Thanks. >                                                Brent Swain   This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy.  Send him US$20 and you will probably get free postage.  The book is available all year round and is well worth the price.  It's thin, but full of new ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide".  Stephen  carlmbentley@... wrote:   > hello all, great message board. > i have several questions, but before i start asking - > i'd like to buy the book to make sure i'm not missing anything. > some quick questions first though, how much is that in u.s. $? > is this still the correct address (see below)? > is the book available year round ? > > thanks in advance > carl > > >Suite #427  1434 Island Highway > >Campbell River BC > >Canada > >V9W8C9 > > >You can order a copy of Brent's book > >"How to Build a Better Steel Boat > >-- a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 > >pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > >for postage to the above address. > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                          ADVERTISEMENT    > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
429|426|2001-11-25 15:31:17|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: brent's book|The price for Brent's book to a US address is $20 US, plus $3.00 shipping. Brent may confirm this shortly, as well as the address question (I have Campbell River as his mailing address).  Regards,  Alex Christie  (moderator)   ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:20 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book   > I believe the address you have is an older address.  Brent's own recent > directions to me were: > >  > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage (prefer > money > > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > > Thanks. > >                                                Brent Swain > > This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy.  Send him > US$20 and you will probably get free postage.  The book is available all > year round and is well worth the price.  It's thin, but full of new > ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". > > Stephen > > carlmbentley@... wrote: > > > hello all, great message board. > > i have several questions, but before i start asking - > > i'd like to buy the book to make sure i'm not missing anything. > > some quick questions first though, how much is that in u.s. $? > > is this still the correct address (see below)? > > is the book available year round ? > > > > thanks in advance > > carl > > > > >Suite #427  1434 Island Highway > > >Campbell River BC > > >Canada > > >V9W8C9 > > > > >You can order a copy of Brent's book > > >"How to Build a Better Steel Boat > > >-- a Heretic's Guide"  (illus.,100 > > >pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 > > >for postage to the above address. > > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                         ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
430|430|2001-11-26 14:32:06|Stephen Wandling|Steel boat construction in Vancouver BC??|I am in the process of completing someone else's 'dream' in the form of a 35' steel boat.  The project had stalled because of the usual lack of funds, but this has changed and I am now eager to proceed.  I had lined up a great guy with a portable welding rig who knew boatbuilding, but now he is off to Alberta because of a lack of work here.  Given the time of year and the fact that sandblasting/coating will take place right after the steel work is completed, I am looking to do the work inside, which means moving the boat from the outside storage its in, to either a yard or some other inside space.  Does anyone out there have recommendations for either a welder/boatbuilder or a small yard that might be suitable for this project?  I'm not looking for the 'cheapest' or the 'best', but rather, a good, solid person/yard to finish things off.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.  Stephen|
431|430|2001-11-26 19:16:41|Russ Ashworth|Re: Steel boat construction in Vancouver BC??| Steve, Try Reed Point Marina. They have some covered spaces.  Russ  At 11:30 AM 11/26/01 -0800, you wrote:   I am in the process of completing someone else's 'dream' in the form of a 35' steel boat.  The project had stalled because of the usual lack of funds, but this has changed and I am now eager to proceed.  I had lined up a great guy with a portable welding rig who knew boatbuilding, but now he is off to Alberta because of a lack of  work here.  Given the time of year and the fact that  sandblasting/coating will take place right after the steel work is completed, I am looking to do the work inside, which means moving the boat from the outside storage its in, to either a yard or some other inside space.  Does anyone out there have recommendations for either a welder/boatbuilder or a small yard that might be suitable for this project?  I'm not looking for the 'cheapest' or the 'best', but rather, a good, solid person/yard to finish things off.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.  Stephen   <b>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor</b>  ADVERTISEMENT  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.    Russ Ashworth  "Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling.   |
432|426|2001-11-26 20:16:26|Russ Ashworth|Dickinson Stove|Hi all, As some of you know I had planned to build myself a boat and in preparation I bought an old Dickinson diesel stove to rebuild and play with so that it would be ready to fit as soon as I got the deck on (or sooner). :) It has been completely gutted and rebuilt with new burner, baffles, fire bricks etc and it works fine.  Meanwhile my wife said that there is no way that I am ever going to build a big boat like that and in any case we don't have the space to build it so go and get a little one and go sailing.   Which is what I did.   Hey, if your wife told you to go and buy a boat, what would you do?:)  Well,I am now the proud owner of an 18' 6"F/G twin keel Alacrity sailboat... and a Dickinson stove. Try as I might I can't figure out how to fit the stove in the boat.   So, if anybody would like to make me an offer for the stove or would like to trade for a small flued kerosene stove (and I do mean small) just give me a call. I am in Vancouver.   Russ Ashworth  "Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard Kipling.|
433|426|2001-11-26 20:40:53|Douglas Pollard|Re: Dickinson Stove|          Russ,     Be careful of those diesel  heaters they put carbon in the air. You will find yourself cleaning a certain  amount of soot. I am nearly 70 years old and have known many people who  have lived aboard for long periods of time. I know several who have lung  problems from such stoves. At least that's what they are claiming. I suspect  mildew could be a cause also. Anyway its worth being careful. Lots of  ventilation!!                                                        Doug  Pollard  ----- Original Message -----     <b>From:</b>    Russ Ashworth    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 26, 2001 8:17    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Dickinson    Stove   Hi all,As some of you know I had planned to build    myself a boat and in preparationI bought an old Dickinson diesel stove to    rebuild and play with so that itwould be ready to fit as soon as I got the    deck on (or sooner). :)It has been completely gutted and rebuilt with new    burner, baffles, firebricks etc and it works fine.Meanwhile my    wife said that there is no way that I am ever going to build abig boat    like that and in any case we don't have the space to build it sogo and get    a little one and go sailing. Which is what I did. Hey, if your    wife told you to go and buy a boat, what would you do?:)Well,I am now    the proud owner of an 18' 6"F/G twin keel Alacritysailboat... and a    Dickinson stove. Try as I might I can't figure out how tofit the stove in    the boat. So, if anybody would like to make me an offer for the stove    or would liketo trade for a small flued kerosene stove (and I do mean    small) just giveme a call. I am in Vancouver.Russ    Ashworth"Last time I looked, the sea was still the sea." Rudyard    Kipling.To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
434|434|2001-11-26 22:30:33|Alex & Kim Christie|Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|          A lot of people blame the machines they live with  for damaging their health, while paying little attention to basic maintenance of  said machines  -- an age old problem that is most prevalent in our  treatment of automobiles, but extends to all areas of our lives.      My general impression is that Dickenson stoves are  quite well made and don't create soot if the fuel is properly combusting in the  burning chamber (the pot).  Also, in a properly functioning stove there is  no output of soot into the boat interior -- that's what the flue pipe is  for!  The main way to get such a problem would be from having A) a  faulty, gummed up carbeurator and B) a blocked flue pipe or flue pipe with too  many bends and turns, constricting the draft.  What usually happens is that  people use the stove for years and years without maintaining it, expecting all  the while that it should function perfectly, then they blame the stove when it  ceases to function properly. Even heating systems in houses need periodic  maintenance, yet people persist in ignoring their maintenance, to their peril  when they feel dizzy from  carbon monoxide poisoning.  Living aboard  requires that one maintain the systems upon which you depend so that such  problems as under-carbeuration don't occur.  That is, "a machine is only as  good as the human maintaining (or not maintaining) it!".   Alex Christie   (moderator)       ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Douglas Pollard    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 26, 2001 5:26    PM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Dickinson    Stove      Russ,       Be careful of those diesel    heaters they put carbon in the air. You will find yourself cleaning a certain    amount of soot. I am nearly 70 years old and have known many people who    have lived aboard for long periods of time. I know several who have lung    problems from such stoves. At least that's what they are claiming. I suspect    mildew could be a cause also. Anyway its worth being careful. Lots of    ventilation!!                                                                Doug    Pollard  |
435|434|2001-11-26 23:08:19|Douglas Pollard|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|          Alex,      You are exactly  right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have  used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning  and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of  furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate  in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.     All it takes is a gust of wind  across a  ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the  boat and a downdraft.      What I'm talking about is long  tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could  stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm  saying, "Be careful."                                                                           Doug      ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Alex &    Kim Christie    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 26, 2001 10:33    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Safety of stoves,    Dickenson et al      A lot of people blame the machines they live with    for damaging their health, while paying little attention to basic maintenance    of said machines  -- an age old problem that is most prevalent in our    treatment of automobiles, but extends to all areas of our lives.            My general impression is that Dickenson stoves    are quite well made and don't create soot if the fuel is properly combusting    in the burning chamber (the pot).  Also, in a properly functioning stove    there is no output of soot into the boat interior -- that's what the flue pipe    is for!  The main way to get such a problem would be from having A)    a faulty, gummed up carbeurator and B) a blocked flue pipe or flue pipe with    too many bends and turns, constricting the draft.  What usually happens    is that people use the stove for years and years without maintaining it,    expecting all the while that it should function perfectly, then they blame the    stove when it ceases to function properly. Even heating systems in houses    need periodic maintenance, yet people persist in ignoring their    maintenance, to their peril when they feel dizzy from  carbon monoxide    poisoning.  Living aboard requires that one maintain the systems upon    which you depend so that such problems as under-carbeuration don't    occur.  That is, "a machine is only as good as the human maintaining (or    not maintaining) it!".       Alex Christie       (moderator)            ----- Original Message -----      <b>From:</b>      Douglas Pollard      <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com           <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 26, 2001 5:26      PM     <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Dickinson      Stove          Russ,         Be careful of those diesel      heaters they put carbon in the air. You will find yourself cleaning a      certain amount of soot. I am nearly 70 years old and have known many      people who have lived aboard for long periods of time. I know several who      have lung problems from such stoves. At least that's what they are claiming.      I suspect mildew could be a cause also. Anyway its worth being careful. Lots      of ventilation!!                                                                        Doug      PollardTo Post a message, send it    to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank    message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use    of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.    |
436|426|2001-11-27 00:13:14|Russ Ashworth|Re: brent's book| At 12:20 PM 11/25/01 -0800, Stephen wrote:    The book is available all year round and is well worth the price.  It's thin, but full of new ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide".  Stephen Brent's book is well worth the money for the philosophy alone even if you are not building an origami steel boat. It will give you a new view on what is important, what to spend your money on, and how the modern boat manufacturing industry is conning the average boater out of 1000s of dollars. So if you've got barrels of money to burn then don't read the book, otherwise..:)   Russ Ashworth  "Nobody could have designed the Chinese Sail,  if only for fear of being laughed at." Brian Platt, The Chinese Sail.   |
437|434|2001-11-27 00:51:44|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|          I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves  are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could  use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than  others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with  a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the  cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the  soot.  So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them.  (I  use propane!)   Something else I have often wondered about in terms  of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine  compartment.  In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from  the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips,  and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp  Volvo diesel we had).  All this just goes right into the living  quarters.  Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest  of the crew?  Anyone have some experience with this?   Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate  engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that  tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling  cousins.    Alex Christie   (moderator)     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Douglas Pollard    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53    PM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Safety of    stoves, Dickenson et al      Alex,        You are exactly    right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have    used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning    and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of    furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the    ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.       All it takes is a gust of wind    across a  ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in    the boat and a downdraft.        What I'm talking about is long    tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could    stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm    saying, "Be careful."                                                                                        Doug   |
438|434|2001-11-27 09:15:58|Russ Ashworth|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al| Running a seperate inlet from the deck to near the stove, having enough flue hight and a reasonably straight run all help too as they would with a solid fuel stove. A friend of mine had a Dickenson that often smoked but his flue was only 4 ft high and exited on the side dech below cabin top level. Plus he had a but solid dodger. You might also like to check out this site about balenced flues. http://www.nbasic.demon.co.uk/sailing/balflues.htm  Other reasons for keeping the engine in a separate compartment are fire safety and to keep the bilges dry in the event that the cutlass bearing  (constant drips) or a through hull leaks. Russ  At 09:54 PM 11/26/01 -0800, Alex wrote:   I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot.  So do take Doug's advice, be careful how you use them.  (I use propane!)   Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine compartment.  In most boats, the engine is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had).  All this just goes right into the living quarters.  Doesn't it make sense to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew?  Anyone have some experience with this?   Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the land-dwelling cousins.    Alex Christie   (moderator)  ----- Original Message -----  From: Douglas Pollard    Alex,      You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.     All it takes is a gust of wind across a  ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.      What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be careful."                                                                       Doug     |
439|426|2001-11-27 14:40:07|Doug Barnard|Re: Dickinson Stove|> > So, if anybody would like to make me an offer for the stove or would like > to trade for a small flued kerosene stove (and I do mean small) just give > me a call. I am in Vancouver.   Man, you just wanted to sell a stove and you got tons of environmental grief!  Anyway, what model is it? Any ideas as to what it's worth? Think that shipping to So. Cal. would be worth it?  Thanks!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler 818-991-9328|
440|434|2001-11-27 19:08:59|Douglas Pollard|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|          Alex,     I have also wondered about  diesel fumes. It does seem to me that there are respiratory problems among a lot  of long term live aboards. Since we are on this subject I'd like to say that  gassing batteries in the boat that are not vented overboard may be a health  risk. Mine are under the settee I have six of them. I presently use Gel cell  batteries all though I think they gas some too. Besides that I originally  used Prevailers but since they have been bought out by an American company  I have not been able to get more than about 30 months out of any I have bought.  I have been told by a battery salesman that the company that bought them out did  not by the process under which they were manufactured. Who  knows?      So a separate engine compartment  with batteries in it, except for the heat problem might be a good  idea.     Another thing I think is a  problem is the wooden interiors put in most boats. Mold grows between the inner  and outer hulls. You can't see it and you can't get rid of it easily.  I insulated the hull on my boat thinking there would be no sweating and  therefore no mold. That didn't work.      I would make all interior wooden  sections in the hull and overhead removable so they could be cleaned every  couple of years.     I watched a man with tears in  his eyes put a forsale sign on his boat because the doctor told him that he was  going to die if he didn't get off of it     Also keep those Radar units up  high and take care with the poison bottom paints.      Anyway that's all I know  ,or think I know about this dreary subject.         LIVE LONG  AND SAIL FAR..                                                   Doug Pollard     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Alex &    Kim Christie    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:54    AM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Safety of    stoves, Dickenson et al      I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves    are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that    could use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning up    than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and that,    coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest setting (they    otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he mentioned    probably accounts for the soot.  So do take Doug's advice, be careful    how you use them.  (I use propane!)       Something else I have often wondered about in    terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the    engine compartment.  In most boats, the engine is not truly    compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as fuel line    leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around the    head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had).  All this just    goes right into the living quarters.  Doesn't it make sense to seal    off the engine from the rest of the crew?  Anyone have some experience    with this?       Our last liveaboard boat had a completely    separate engine compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't    have that tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the    land-dwelling cousins.        Alex Christie       (moderator)        ----- Original Message -----      <b>From:</b>      Douglas Pollard      <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com           <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53      PM     <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Safety of      stoves, Dickenson et al          Alex,          You are exactly      right and that's why I said be careful. I also have one and have      used it a long time. A pot burner has never been considered clean      burning and even generating plants who of course don't use this type of      furnace, but use gun type burners which are probably the      ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their  stacks.         All it takes is a gust of      wind across a  ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight      vacuum in the boat and a downdraft.          What I'm talking about is      long tem accumulated effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove      that could stand a white glove test.   I am not saying don't      use one I'm saying, "Be careful."                                                                                                    Doug To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
441|434|2001-11-27 19:45:55|Douglas Pollard|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|          Rus,     That's a good site. He may have  worked out a good solution. A little vacuum in the boat wouldn't seem to make  any difference to the stove at all.                                                             Doug  ----- Original Message -----     <b>From:</b>    Russ Ashworth    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 27, 2001 9:16    AM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Safety of    stoves, Dickenson et al   Running a seperate inlet from the deck to near the stove,    having enough flue hight and a reasonably straight run all help too as they    would with a solid fuel stove. A friend of mine had a Dickenson that often    smoked but his flue was only 4 ft high and exited on the side dech below cabin    top level. Plus he had a but solid dodger.You might also like to check out    this site about balenced flues.http://www.nbasic.demon.co.uk/sailing/balflues.htmOther    reasons for keeping the engine in a separate compartment are fire safety and    to keep the bilges dry in the event that the cutlass bearing  (constant    drips) or a through hull leaks.RussAt 09:54 PM 11/26/01 -0800,    Alex wrote:    I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel      stoves are a might primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area      that could use some research and development. Some are more prone to      carboning up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure),      and that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest      setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft problem he      mentioned probably accounts for the soot.  So do take Doug's advice, be      careful how you use them.  (I use propane!) Something else I have often      wondered about in terms of cumulative effects is the breathing of diesel      vapours/fumes from the engine compartment.  In most boats, the engine      is not truly compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the      years as fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from      around the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had).  All      this just goes right into the living quarters.  Doesn't it make sense      to seal off the engine from the rest of the crew?  Anyone have      some experience with this? Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine      compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that      tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the      land-dwelling cousins.  Alex Christie (moderator)                     ----- Original Message -----          From: Douglas          Pollard          Alex,               You are exactly right and that's why I          said be careful. I also have one and have used it a long time. A          pot burner has never been considered clean burning and even generating          plants who of course don't use this type of furnace, but use          gun type burners which are probably the ultimate in          efficiency use scrubbers to clean their stacks.              All it takes is a gust of wind across a           ventilator or slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat          and a downdraft.               What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated          effects. I have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a          white glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm          saying, "Be careful."                                                                                                                             Doug      To      Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo      Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service.   |
442|434|2001-11-27 20:06:28|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|Alex: how did you engineer the separate engine compartment?  I am  interested in researching this.  Diesel has much to recommend it as a  safer power source--living with it when you are not running it seems  to be the challenge.  As I mentioned before, i have developed a  significant intollerance to the stuff.  Still putting the keel on  between rain storms so it's not a crucial issue yet.  Thanks, rt   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might   primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could  use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning  up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and  that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest  setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft  problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot.  So do take  Doug's advice, be careful how you use them.  (I use propane!)  >  > Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative   effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine  compartment.  In most boats, the engine is not truly  compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as  fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around  the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had).  All this just  goes right into the living quarters.  Doesn't it make sense to seal  off the engine from the rest of the crew?  Anyone have some  experience with this?  >  > Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine   compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that  tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the  land-dwelling cousins.   >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Douglas Pollard  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 PM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al >  >  >   Alex, >        You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I   also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never  been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of  course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which  are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their  stacks.  >       All it takes is a gust of wind across a  ventilator or   slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a  downdraft.   >       What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I   have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white  glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be  careful."    >                                                                         Doug|
443|426|2001-11-28 15:45:13|carlmbentley@yahoo.com|Re: brent's book|no word from brent yet ? can anyone provide the most recent working address for ordering the  book, i'll take my chances.  -carl   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > The price for Brent's book to a US address is $20 US, plus $3.00   shipping.  > Brent may confirm this shortly, as well as the address question (I   have  > Campbell River as his mailing address). >  > Regards, >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:20 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book >  >  > > I believe the address you have is an older address.  Brent's own   recent  > > directions to me were: > > > >  > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage   (prefer  > > money > > > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > > > Thanks. > > >                                                Brent Swain > > > > This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy.  Send   him  > > US$20 and you will probably get free postage.  The book is   available all  > > year round and is well worth the price.  It's thin, but full of   new  > > ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". > > > > Stephen |
444|426|2001-11-28 15:54:22|Stephen Wandling|Re: brent's book|As below, my directions from Brent were to mail $20 plus $3 postage (US funds apparently accepted at par) to:  3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0  This is his parent's house and they apparently are handling this for Brent.  It is where I went to buy my copy when I visited the Island.  Stephen  carlmbentley@... wrote:   > no word from brent yet ? > can anyone provide the most recent working address for ordering the > book, i'll take my chances. > > -carl > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...> > wrote: > > The price for Brent's book to a US address is $20 US, plus $3.00 > shipping. > > Brent may confirm this shortly, as well as the address question (I > have > > Campbell River as his mailing address). > > > > Regards, > > > > Alex Christie > > > > (moderator) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:20 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] brent's book > > > > > > > I believe the address you have is an older address.  Brent's own > recent > > > directions to me were: > > > > > >  > For a copy of my book please send $20 plus$3 for postage > (prefer > > > money > > > > order ) to 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC V0R 2V0 . > > > > Thanks. > > > >                                                Brent Swain > > > > > > This is his parent's house and is where I bought my copy.  Send > him > > > US$20 and you will probably get free postage.  The book is > available all > > > year round and is well worth the price.  It's thin, but full of > new > > > ideas, hence the subtitle "A Heretics Guide". > > > > > > Stephen > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                          ADVERTISEMENT    > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
445|426|2001-11-28 16:58:50|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: brent's book|The Royston address should work fine, it is his father's place, and I think he checks in there regularly.  Alex    > no word from brent yet ? > can anyone provide the most recent working address for ordering the > book, i'll take my chances. > > -carl > |
446|446|2001-11-29 02:09:36|david@thebookkeeper.co.nz|Sailing Ability|Hi all There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I have  not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable they  are and how they perform in a storm. I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that is  only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and what  are they like for cruising. Looking forward to your replies. David|
448|446|2001-11-29 16:13:15|Michael Casling|Re: Sailing Ability|           David, are you in New Zealand if so may I ask where? If you  are in NZ I would like to here your thoughts on the designs and construction  types currently available. Also what would you be comparing the Swain boat to  that is available locally. I was in NZ 1948 to 1968 and have made several trips  back. My brother owns a Lotus 10.6 in Tutukaka. I am most familiar with the Bo  Birdsall designs and was going to get one built in Auckland in the early 80's  but I got married in 1984, bought property and kept my Tanzer 8.5 which is of  solid fiberglass construction. The Swain designs are of interest to me based on  initial cost plus the total time involved to build. I am a fin keel fan but must  admit that the twin keels and rudder skeg make it easy to beach and clean the  bottom. What attracted me to the Birdsall design was the overall performance, to  be able to break out of the displacement mode off the wind, but probably at the  expense of comfort on the wind. At 17000 lbs for a 36 foot boat the Swain would  be solid into the seas. As a cruiser the depth of the hull would be a benefit  and in my opinion I do not think the hard chine would make much difference. The  people who have sailed on the 36 can provide more input on this. The other  consideration is the living comfort inside in different weather conditions.  Vancouver BC is similar to Wellington in terms of temperature and rain but not  as windy. It does seem as though a wooden boat or even fiberglass would be more  cosy in lousy weather. Again the Vancouver sailors can answer that question. You  have also asked the question about sailing performance ( I have my theories  based on my own experience and think it would sail similar to my current boat  but with the advantages of being larger and having a longer LWL ) but I also  look forward to the replies from Brent and or others. Michael Casling T8.5 #13 Gently      Kelowna BC   caslingm@... <b>-----Original Message-----</b><b>From:  </b>david@...  <david@...><b>To:  </b>origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com><b>Date:  </b>Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:10 PM<b>Subject: </b>[origamiboats]  Sailing AbilityHi allThere have be lots of posts  about building Brents designs but I have not seen anything on what they are  like to sail, how comfortable they are and how they perform in a storm.I  have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my desire to find  out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my retirement and are  currently looking at designs and constructions methods.  Bretts method  is about the simplest I have seen but that is only part of the  equation.  What are they like to live on and what are they like for  cruising.Looking forward to your replies.DavidTo  Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo  Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!  Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms of Service. |
450|426|2001-11-30 05:01:29|Richard Payne|Re: brent's book|I would like to order Brent's book also, if I could find out how to, and what charge there would be for airmail to Australia. Regards, Richard Payne.|
451|426|2001-11-30 11:03:37|Jes�sAlbor�s|Re: brent's book|Richard, I write you from Spain. I asked for Brent's book, enclosing US$30 (20 for the book, 10 for the airmail postage),  at the following adress:         3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC V0R2V0         Canada   That was about a week ago; today Brent email me saying the book was sent a couple of dayys ago.  So, this is the right adress, and the answer comes very promptly. I wish Amazon would be near so quick as Brent. Regards, Jesus   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1|
453|446|2001-11-30 15:34:00|Mark_Schlichting@hotmail.com|Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard|My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to  live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while  completing the interior.  It's great!  We moved from my old 35'  Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least 30%  more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width  (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too).  Because  the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the settees  we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel).  With  our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver  Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with demand  propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on.  We  specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white  painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a  open and spacious feeling interior.  The 6'2" headroom certainly  helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin.    We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising we've  done so far has shown the boat to perform very well.  We went with a  47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used  Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely.    We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design  performs in offshore conditions.  Shinola's windward beat back to NZ  by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other boats  cruising in company.  The submarine type companionway hatch creates a  watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a  turtle hatch.  I believe passage times on the Brents is quite  respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore  experience to comment on that first-hand.    --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I  have  > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable  they  > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that  is  > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and what  > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David |
455|446|2001-11-30 18:14:22|david@thebookkeeper.co.nz|Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard|Mark Many thanks for the comments.  The boats and their method of  construction are great.  I am sending away for Brents book so I can  find out more about them.  I looks forward to hearing more about  their sailing ability. Regards David   --- In origamiboats@y..., Mark_Schlichting@h... wrote: > My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to  > live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while  > completing the interior.  It's great!  We moved from my old 35'  > Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least  30%  > more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width  > (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too).  Because  > the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the  settees  > we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel).  With  > our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver  > Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with  demand  > propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on.  We  > specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white  > painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a  > open and spacious feeling interior.  The 6'2" headroom certainly  > helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin.   >  > We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising  we've  > done so far has shown the boat to perform very well.  We went with  a  > 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used  > Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely.   >  > We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design  > performs in offshore conditions.  Shinola's windward beat back to  NZ  > by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other  boats  > cruising in company.  The submarine type companionway hatch creates  a  > watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a  > turtle hatch.  I believe passage times on the Brents is quite  > respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore  > experience to comment on that first-hand. >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I  > have  > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable  > they  > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but  that  > is  > > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and  what  > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David |
456|446|2001-11-30 18:16:30|david@thebookkeeper.co.nz|Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard|Mark Many thanks for the comments.  The boats and their method of  construction are great.  I am sending away for Brents book so I can  find out more about them.  I looks forward to hearing more about  their sailing ability. Regards David   --- In origamiboats@y..., Mark_Schlichting@h... wrote: > My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to  > live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while  > completing the interior.  It's great!  We moved from my old 35'  > Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least  30%  > more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width  > (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too).  Because  > the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the  settees  > we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel).  With  > our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver  > Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with  demand  > propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on.  We  > specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white  > painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a  > open and spacious feeling interior.  The 6'2" headroom certainly  > helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin.   >  > We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising  we've  > done so far has shown the boat to perform very well.  We went with  a  > 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used  > Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely.   >  > We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design  > performs in offshore conditions.  Shinola's windward beat back to  NZ  > by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other  boats  > cruising in company.  The submarine type companionway hatch creates  a  > watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a  > turtle hatch.  I believe passage times on the Brents is quite  > respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore  > experience to comment on that first-hand. >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I  > have  > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable  > they  > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but  that  > is  > > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and  what  > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David |
457|446|2001-11-30 18:26:16|david@thebookkeeper.co.nz|Re: Sailing Ability|Mike Thanks for the reply. Yes I live in Auckland New Zealand. I have sailed on a Lotus 10.6 and found them to be a lovely boat. I  currently sail a 25 foot lift keel trailer yacht.  I am looking at  cruising yachts for a planned cruise around the world.  I have  several options, buy an existing boat and refit her or build a new  boat. I am not sure what option I will settle on yet, it depends on  finances and wether anything suitable is around at the time.  I like  the strength of steel but was not sure about the construction.   Broberts kitset boats were appealing due to their method of  construction.  I have also been looking at Michael Kasten designs due  to their traditional looks.  His ideas on gaf rig is also appealing  due to the simple rig and low stresses. David   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...> wrote: > David, are you in New Zealand if so may I ask where? If you are in  NZ I would like to here your thoughts on the designs and construction  types currently available. Also what would you be comparing the Swain  boat to that is available locally. I was in NZ 1948 to 1968 and have  made several trips back. My brother owns a Lotus 10.6 in Tutukaka. I  am most familiar with the Bo Birdsall designs and was going to get  one built in Auckland in the early 80's but I got married in 1984,  bought property and kept my Tanzer 8.5 which is of solid fiberglass  construction. The Swain designs are of interest to me based on  initial cost plus the total time involved to build. I am a fin keel  fan but must admit that the twin keels and rudder skeg make it easy  to beach and clean the bottom. What attracted me to the Birdsall  design was the overall performance, to be able to break out of the  displacement mode off the wind, but probably at the expense of  comfort on the wind. At 17000 lbs for a 36 foot boat the Swain would  be solid into the seas. As a cruiser the depth of the hull would be a  benefit and in my opinion I do not think the hard chine would make  much difference. The people who have sailed on the 36 can provide  more input on this. The other consideration is the living comfort  inside in different weather conditions. Vancouver BC is similar to  Wellington in terms of temperature and rain but not as windy. It does  seem as though a wooden boat or even fiberglass would be more cosy in  lousy weather. Again the Vancouver sailors can answer that question.  You have also asked the question about sailing performance ( I have  my theories based on my own experience and think it would sail  similar to my current boat but with the advantages of being larger  and having a longer LWL ) but I also look forward to the replies from  Brent and or others. > Michael Casling T8.5 #13 Gently     Kelowna BC   caslingm@s... > -----Original Message----- > From: david@t... <david@t...> > To: origamiboats@y... <origamiboats@y...> > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing Ability >  >  > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I  have  > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable  they  > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that  is  > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and what  > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David >  >  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >             ADVERTISEMENT >                           >               >               >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
458|458|2001-11-30 21:02:42|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: virus warning|My program picked up a so called "as yet incurable" virus in Doug's  last message.  I deleted it instantly.  Hope no one else got infected. Poor weather for building.  I'm turning out pulleys for blocks out of  UHMW plastic using a neat device I borrowed to bolt onto the bed  plate of my drill press.  Then i got some free time on a milling  machine--makes an awsome finish.  So far the cost of the pulleys has  amounted to some minor scrounging expeditions.  Picked up a Dickenson  propane stove for a decent price.  Got to build a pump for the head  next.  rt    --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > I don't know why, but Doug Pollard's emails always come to me with  the > message blank does anyone else have that problem?. > Regards, >  Richard Payne, |
459|446|2001-12-01 13:17:35|paull01@yahoo.com|Re: Sailing Ability/Living Aboard|Hi Mark and Jean.  Those are real inspiring words for those of us who are planning and  saving up for the kind of lifestyle you are already living. I realize  how important it is to be able to have a shower inside in a climate  where one is unable to have a sunshower out on deck or in the  cockpit. Do you think you could send a sketch of your layout to the  Files section? I am interested in seeing how you incorporate a shower  stall into the design. Perhaps you could send some pictures as well?  If you don't have a scanner or computer access to upload the files,  just drop me an email and I could upload them for you if you send the  sketches or photos to me in the mail. I'd send them back to you after  I uploaded them.  Also, does anyone know if Brent has incorporated a shower into his 31  footer?  Paul Woodinville, WA   --- In origamiboats@y..., Mark_Schlichting@h... wrote: > My wife, Jean, and I built our 36' Brent, Costa Vida, primarily to  > live aboard and have been doing so for a year and a half while  > completing the interior.  It's great!  We moved from my old 35'  > Colvin - a steel Saugeen Witch - and the Brent boat has at least  30%  > more interior space due to higher freeboard and 6" greater width  > (maybe the frameless construction method contributes too).  Because  > the fuel and water tankage are in the keel and not under the  settees  > we also have a lot more storage (ours is a fin keel).  With  > our woodstove heat the boat is really dry (even here on Vancouver  > Island) and with a decent propane stove/oven and shower (with  demand  > propane Bosch water heater), its a pleasure to live on.  We  > specifically used light wood for the cabinsides (maple) and white  > painted bulkheads, plus an extra port in the main cabin to give a  > open and spacious feeling interior.  The 6'2" headroom certainly  > helps as well, especially compared to the 5'9" on the Colvin.   >  > We haven't done any offshore sailing yet but the local cruising  we've  > done so far has shown the boat to perform very well.  We went with  a  > 47' mast stepped on deck and sprung for a new mainsail with a used  > Genoa and Staysail and she moves nicely.   >  > We have heard many first hand accounts of how well the design  > performs in offshore conditions.  Shinola's windward beat back to  NZ  > by way of Hawaii was apparently quite dry compared to the other  boats  > cruising in company.  The submarine type companionway hatch creates  a  > watertight seal quickly and easily - a lot better than slats and a  > turtle hatch.  I believe passage times on the Brents is quite  > respectable but you'll have to wait for someone with offshore  > experience to comment on that first-hand. >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I  > have  > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable  > they  > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but  that  > is  > > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and  what  > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David |
460|419|2001-12-01 13:41:13|paull01@yahoo.com|Re: Shaler Junk engine|Hi Evan.  Thanks for all the info on your design and a description of the  Origami process used by Brent. I was kind of hoping you were using  design techniques that were inline with the philosophy and methods  used in the construction process. I've been toying with the idea of  an origami approach to Bolger's 35' Volunteer. It already has a  (flat) steel bottom. I'm sure there would be a way (for mere mortals)  to come up with a folding version of this type of design. I think the  approach of making a model of the original - and working from that -  makes the most sense. Bolger achieves a 2' draft with the use of  leeboards. I'd also be interested in seeing the lines of your junk.  Do you think you could post a 3-view to the Files section? If you  don't have access to a scanner and computer, I could upload them for  you if you sent me the sketches. I'm also interested in the length  and beam and any other details about the rigging etc. you'd care to  include.  I know there was a nice coffee table book put out on China Moon. Do  you know what the title is and if it's still published?  Paul Woodinville, WA  -- In origamiboats@y..., evanmoonjunk@y... wrote:  >  Here are some answers to the questions flying around. The basic  > construction is based on Brent's method with variations. All the  > components are pulled together the same way except the bottom of   the   > hull. When I came up with the idea of building this boat(a long   time   > ago) I spent a great deal of time talking to Allen about China   Cloud,   > pros and cons etc. He insisted that a flat bottom was important so   I   > incorporated that into the design. So instead of a V as in Brent's  > boats there is a section in the bottom that is flat(with a curve   fore   > and aft) that is shaped like the bottom of a dory.This made for  > interesting challenges pulling 3 plates together for the hull but   it   > worked. If I was to do it again I would do it with a shallow V for  > ease of construction and to get a bilge area which I don't have   much   > of now. >  At the time that I conceived the idea to build this boat I had  > already built quite a few of Brent's boats and wanted the challenge  > of building something a little different. I developed the concept   the   > same that Brent did, with cardboard models. Allen had a wooden half  > model of China Cloud plus his lines and ofsets(which are also in   the   > book about China Cloud, "Sailing back in time"). I started off with  > half inch to the foot models geting the shape as close as I could   to   > the half model(about 7 of these) and then went to 1 inch to the foot > (3 of these). From the final model I was abel to take accurate  > measuerments to make scale drawings from which I could loft out the  > hull, decks etc. >  The boat draws about 4' 10". It is a lot heavier than China Cloud  > because of steel, Engine, fuel tanks, twice as much water etc. I   also   > wanted to go deeper draft(extra 18") for better windward   performance   > which it did accomplish. The keels are bigger than I should have  > gone. The length of them was based on China Cloud forgetting at the  > time that a wood boat needs a lot more strutural support than a   steel   > boat. Oh well live and learn! There is 200 gallons of water in the  > keels plus 2000 lbs of lead plus a sump in each end. >  > Yes there is an engine as in my last boat (a Brent 31') I could not  > afford one ,this time I wanted one. I originally was going to go  > hydraulic drive, but as I could not afford that either I settled   for   > an ancient 2 cylinder Hercules(circa 1945) >  The rudder is fixed on a skeg using all the same methods as on  > Brents boats. If you have any more questions feel free to ask and I  > will be happy to answer them.....Evan |
461|461|2001-12-01 13:49:42|paull01@yahoo.com|Oops|Evan,  I see the title for the book "Sailing Back in Time" was right in your  post. (And my reply). I think I'd better get some breakfast.  Paul|
462|461|2001-12-01 15:39:04|Stephen Wandling|Re: Oops|There is also the Dan Rubin book "Salt on the Wind: The Sailing Life of Allen & Sharie Farrell" if you want a more in-depth account of the Farrell's incredible lives on the BC coast.  Chapters has it but Amazon doesn't.  Figures.  http://chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Catalog=Books&Section=Books&Cat=&Lang=en&Item=978092066346&mscssid=KUG0S8V0G6J38LPT9QC3N10FP889DV1D&WSID=151299420C60FD904A7FA154BB49FCBD008C3501  paull01@... wrote:   > Evan, > > I see the title for the book "Sailing Back in Time" was right in your > post. (And my reply). I think I'd better get some breakfast. > > Paul > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                          ADVERTISEMENT    > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
466|419|2001-12-02 15:32:42|Doug Barnard|adapting designs (was Shaler Junk engine)|> -----Original Message----- > From: paull01@... [mailto:paull01@...]   <snip>   >  I'm sure there would be a way (for mere mortals) > to come up with a folding version of this type of design.   <snip>  Thanks to the great efforts of List member Gary Lewis, I've tried some of his methods using Rhino 3D, and had less than rousing success. I'm paraphrasing here, but so far the two of us have found that the "split orange peel" look of Brent's plate development is pretty much specific to sleek sailing hulls. Junks and trawlers, with their more rounded bows, require more splits, or going to more of a strip approach.  Gary turned me on to Van De Stadt, who also has a "speed building" approach. Frankly, it amazed me that in the whole wide world, only two guys have said, "Hey, this boatbuilding thing sure takes a long time!" Anyway, I've sent away for more materials, and the brand new book written be Van De Stadt about his designs. I'll report back to the list when the goodies arrive; as they'll be coming in from Holland, it might take awhile.  I had good success with assembling a paper model of my trawler design. I've also refined the interior/exterior, and completed virtual flythrus of the exterior, interior and below decks. Next, I'll try for a larger scale model that incorporates a "bustle" (integrated swim step) and all of the cabin. Basically, everything that I'd have CNC cut.  There was a disturbing note in the Rhino help file about a lack of precision *sometimes* when unrolling surfaces. Whoever wrote it said that *sometimes* it would produce unfair plates. No mention was made as to how to avoid this calamity, whether the plates had to re-cut, and just how bad the funkiness was. I'm also assuming that this poor fellow was trying to assemble the bogus plates on to a standard frame. The great thing about the folded steel approach is that it tends to be self-correcting, by pulling the gap together instead of leaving a gap that you could throw a cat through. So I'm not too freaked out by these events.|
467|434|2001-12-04 14:47:35|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al|On fishboats they have a saying "air in-air out"    They install a fan blowing air into the engine compartment and  another blowing air out. I think that a big one hooked up to the  ignition switch, taking air out would be adequate, but the resulting  vacuum in the cabin can cause serious downdraft problems for your  stove if you don't let enough back in.    Another solution , used on the Fab-all stoves ,is to have a  separate , outside air intake for the stove. That way the stove burns  only outside air and is sealed from the cabin. Any downdrafts on the  boat put the same pressure on both the chimney and the air intake  simultaneously.   The first manufacturer of oil stoves which uses titanium for burner  pots is going to be popular. When the Russian military collapsed ,  titanium production was cheap, so they re-directed it to civilian  use .   I've heard that you can go into a hardware store in Russia and buy  a titanium shovel or garden rake for cheap.I've also heard that the  Russian pilots are the people to talk to for Russian contacts if you  want to import anything from there .A company could order titanium  pots from Russia for less than they are now paying in the west for  stainless. A titanium pot would last forever.   Any oilstove manufacturers listening?                                             Brent Swain   -- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > I agree with Doug, the pots used in diesel stoves are a might   primitive and not terribly efficient, and sure is an area that could  use some research and development. Some are more prone to carboning  up than others (sometimes within the same model line, go figure), and  that, coupled with a tendency for users to run them on the lowest  setting (they otherwise make the cabin roast) plus the downdraft  problem he mentioned probably accounts for the soot.  So do take  Doug's advice, be careful how you use them.  (I use propane!)  >  > Something else I have often wondered about in terms of cumulative   effects is the breathing of diesel vapours/fumes from the engine  compartment.  In most boats, the engine is not truly  compartmentalized from the rest of the cabin, and over the years as  fuel line leak, the oil pan drips, and even exhaust leaks from around  the head (at least on this 10 hp Volvo diesel we had).  All this just  goes right into the living quarters.  Doesn't it make sense to seal  off the engine from the rest of the crew?  Anyone have some  experience with this?  >  > Our last liveaboard boat had a completely separate engine   compartment, and it made life very bearable, plus we didn't have that  tell-tale diesel odour clinging to our clothes when we visted the  land-dwelling cousins.   >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Douglas Pollard  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:53 PM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Safety of stoves, Dickenson et al >  >  >   Alex, >        You are exactly right and that's why I said be careful. I   also have one and have used it a long time. A pot burner has never  been considered clean burning and even generating plants who of  course don't use this type of furnace, but use gun type burners which  are probably the ultimate in efficiency use scrubbers to clean their  stacks.  >       All it takes is a gust of wind across a  ventilator or   slightly open hatch you have a slight vacuum in the boat and a  downdraft.   >       What I'm talking about is long tem accumulated effects. I   have never seen a boat with such a stove that could stand a white  glove test.   I am not saying don't use one I'm saying, "Be  careful."    >                                                                         Doug|
468|434|2001-12-04 14:57:10|Robert.Biegler@svt.ntnu.no|Re: material|--- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote:  >   The first manufacturer of oil stoves which uses titanium for  > burner pots is going to be popular.    There was a short note on a science website about half a year ago  that a process had been developed by which one can get titanium from  the oxide through electrolysis, same as with aluminium (don't ask me  how they get titanium at the moment; apparently it takes even more  energy).  So I hope that in 5 to 10 years, titanium should come down  to a price not far above that of aluminium.  If that ever does  happen, it'll be the day of titanium hulls, assuming welding is not  any more difficult than with aluminium.  Regards  Robert|
469|446|2001-12-04 15:13:15|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Sailing Ability|One of my 36 footers sailed accross the atlantic from the canaries  to the west indies , 2200 miles in 14 days . Another sailing west  from Mexico to Hawaii covered 1006 miles in 6 1/2 days , beating into  a 25 knot northwesterly.   Another sailed from Sooke BC to San Francisco in 5 1/2 days.   One owner built a 36 footer and sailed it around the Pacific, then  built one of my 26 footers and sailed it through the Northwest  passage, then built another one of my 36 footers to cruise the  Pacific in again. His daughter is building one of my 26 footers. He  wouldn't want any other design.   Several owners have built several of my designs for themselves, and  put a lot of sea miles on them.Most wouldn't even consider anything  else . They sail well and with the more traditional hull shape are  very comfortable at sea. Everyone I know who has built one of my  designs and followed the plans has been very happy with them. Those  who don't follow the plans are not my responsibility.    All who I have worked for are still the best of friends.                                 Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I  have  > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable  they  > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that  is  > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and what  > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David |
470|446|2001-12-04 15:20:14|brentswain38@hotmail.com|Re: Sailing Ability|A well insulated steel boat would be much more comfortable in cold  weather. There is no comparison between the insulating abilities of  wood and sprayfoam insulation, sprayfoam is a much better insulator,  and a steel boat is much drier;more watertight. Deck leaks on a well  built steel boats are unheard of . They are the rule rather than the  exception on older wooden boats .    There is also a great deal of comfort in the form of peace of mind  in a steel hull.                                         Brent Swain                                    -- In origamiboats@y..., "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...> wrote:  > David, are you in New Zealand if so may I ask where? If you are in   NZ I would like to here your thoughts on the designs and construction  types currently available. Also what would you be comparing the Swain  boat to that is available locally. I was in NZ 1948 to 1968 and have  made several trips back. My brother owns a Lotus 10.6 in Tutukaka. I  am most familiar with the Bo Birdsall designs and was going to get  one built in Auckland in the early 80's but I got married in 1984,  bought property and kept my Tanzer 8.5 which is of solid fiberglass  construction. The Swain designs are of interest to me based on  initial cost plus the total time involved to build. I am a fin keel  fan but must admit that the twin keels and rudder skeg make it easy  to beach and clean the bottom. What attracted me to the Birdsall  design was the overall performance, to be able to break out of the  displacement mode off the wind, but probably at the expense of  comfort on the wind. At 17000 lbs for a 36 foot boat the Swain would  be solid into the seas. As a cruiser the depth of the hull would be a  benefit and in my opinion I do not think the hard chine would make  much difference. The people who have sailed on the 36 can provide  more input on this. The other consideration is the living comfort  inside in different weather conditions. Vancouver BC is similar to  Wellington in terms of temperature and rain but not as windy. It does  seem as though a wooden boat or even fiberglass would be more cosy in  lousy weather. Again the Vancouver sailors can answer that question.  You have also asked the question about sailing performance ( I have  my theories based on my own experience and think it would sail  similar to my current boat but with the advantages of being larger  and having a longer LWL ) but I also look forward to the replies from  Brent and or others.  > Michael Casling T8.5 #13 Gently     Kelowna BC   caslingm@s... > -----Original Message----- > From: david@t... <david@t...> > To: origamiboats@y... <origamiboats@y...> > Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Sailing Ability >  >  > Hi all > There have be lots of posts about building Brents designs but I   have   > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, how comfortable   they   > are and how they perform in a storm. > I have followed the discussions with interest, it has wetted my  > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around the world in my  > retirement and are currently looking at designs and constructions  > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I have seen but that   is   > only part of the equation.  What are they like to live on and what  > are they like for cruising. > Looking forward to your replies. > David >  >  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >             ADVERTISEMENT >                           >               >               >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-  unsubscribe@y...   >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
471|446|2001-12-04 18:15:14|Jim Phillips|origami cats, design book|Brent,  I was wondering how I could purchase your design book.  Do you design multihulls?  After owning monos and sailing about 30 000 miles from Oz to the Med and around the Caribbean, we are now back in Australia and looking to build an aluminium cat via a frameless method over the next few years.  Any info about your method and your design book would be greatly appreciated.  Cheers, Jim.    --- brentswain38@... wrote: >  One of my 36 footers sailed accross the atlantic  > from the canaries  > to the west indies , 2200 miles in 14 days . Another > sailing west  > from Mexico to Hawaii covered 1006 miles in 6 1/2 > days , beating into  > a 25 knot northwesterly. >   Another sailed from Sooke BC to San Francisco in 5 > 1/2 days. >   One owner built a 36 footer and sailed it around > the Pacific, then  > built one of my 26 footers and sailed it through the > Northwest  > passage, then built another one of my 36 footers to > cruise the  > Pacific in again. His daughter is building one of my > 26 footers. He  > wouldn't want any other design. >   Several owners have built several of my designs > for themselves, and  > put a lot of sea miles on them.Most wouldn't even > consider anything  > else . They sail well and with the more traditional > hull shape are  > very comfortable at sea. Everyone I know who has > built one of my  > designs and followed the plans has been very happy > with them. Those  > who don't follow the plans are not my > responsibility. >    All who I have worked for are still the best of > friends. >                                 Brent Swain >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., david@t... wrote: > > Hi all > > There have be lots of posts about building Brents > designs but I  > have  > > not seen anything on what they are like to sail, > how comfortable  > they  > > are and how they perform in a storm. > > I have followed the discussions with interest, it > has wetted my  > > desire to find out more.  I aim to cruise around > the world in my  > > retirement and are currently looking at designs > and constructions  > > methods.  Bretts method is about the simplest I > have seen but that  > is  > > only part of the equation.  What are they like to > live on and what  > > are they like for cruising. > > Looking forward to your replies. > > David >  >     ________________________________________________________________ Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great.  Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!  The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.|
472|434|2001-12-04 20:45:09|rct_51@hotmail.com|Re: material|At present, welding titanium is still regarded as a fairly  specialised process--it would be an expensive proposition for the  average home builder. rt   --- In origamiboats@y..., Robert.Biegler@s... wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., brentswain38@h... wrote: > >   The first manufacturer of oil stoves which uses titanium for  > > burner pots is going to be popular.  >  > There was a short note on a science website about half a year ago  > that a process had been developed by which one can get titanium  from  > the oxide through electrolysis, same as with aluminium (don't ask  me  > how they get titanium at the moment; apparently it takes even more  > energy).  So I hope that in 5 to 10 years, titanium should come  down  > to a price not far above that of aluminium.  If that ever does  > happen, it'll be the day of titanium hulls, assuming welding is not  > any more difficult than with aluminium. >  > Regards >  > Robert |
473|434|2001-12-04 21:58:12|Doug Barnard|Re: material|> -----Original Message----- > From: Robert.Biegler@... [mailto:Robert.Biegler@...]  >   If that ever does > happen, it'll be the day of titanium hulls, assuming welding is not > any more difficult than with aluminium.   I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That stuff is gnarly!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler|
474|434|2001-12-05 10:58:53|batsondbelfrey|Re: material|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote:  > I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That  > stuff is gnarly!   Another nice idea shot down by reality.  Sigh.  At the moment I know  next to nothing about welding, I am reading this group because the  method seems interesting and I really *like* the idea of an impact  resistant hull.  I got an email reply from John Barker, but there was no text.  John,  your computer may have a case of Badtrans.  Regards  Robert|
476|446|2001-12-05 17:35:05|mat_man22|Re: origami cats, design book|Jim,  I am also on the lookout for an aluminum origami catamaran plans and have not found much.  I would think the French designers might be a place to look (they are into cats and aluminum).  This link is for free (?)  40' origami cat plans.  http://www.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/  Please pass on anything you find.  Thanks  Mat|
479|479|2001-12-05 22:59:17|Jim Phillips|origami cats, Brent's book & Tony Bigras|G'day Mat,  I had already checked out Tony Bigras' site.  I think he is definitely on the right track with his unstayed biplane rig and alum hull - my plans exactly - but, unlike his design thoughts, I don't want to have any structure on the bridge deck.  (We're inclined to a (nearly) horizontal alum bimini with solar panels on top that will provide very little wind resistance compared with a central pod but plenty of shade in the tropics.)  Although he says he would be interested in talking about all this, I haven't made contact with him yet.  His plans are not readily available.    As we will not be in a position to build for another year or two, I am using this time to investigate the various methods and designs available.  An aluminium Wharram is also a possibility.  I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that I may have to design the boat myself using some of the freeware available on the net such as Hulls.  In the meantime, do you know how I can get hold of Brent's book?  Cheers,  Jim.   ________________________________________________________________ Nokia 5510 looks weird sounds great.  Go to http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/nokia/ discover and win it!  The competition ends 16 th of December 2001.|
480|426|2001-12-06 03:41:47|Richard Payne|Re: brent's book|Thanks Jesus, I will order the book and am most interested to see Brent's approach to things. Regards, Richard.|
481|434|2001-12-06 09:37:44|dr01allen|Re: material|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote:   >  > I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That   stuff is  > gnarly!   actually TIG with argon can be used without much trouble.  C, N, and  O will intercalate at temps over 400, if present, so the surfaces  need to be clean.  check out the various titanium supplier websites  for other machining techniques.  da|
483|483|2001-12-06 13:21:02|alex_christie|attachments function suspended|Dear Group,  I have altered the setting to discard attachments in e-mails so as to  avoid any more virus attacks. I'll review this change in a while to  see if I should keep it like that in the future.  It is certainly one  way of keeping the viruses at bay.  I have not sent any messages with  attachments on purpose, but my computer did after being invaded by  the worm.  I have gone through the group messages and have deleted  any with attachments and/or viruses.   We can still share and view photos and text, however, by posting  images to the Photos or the Files section.  Yahoo scans files as you  upload them, I believe, which is why it takes quite some time to  upload.  Hope this restores some confidence and encourages people to post!  I've tweaked my computer to a very high level of security to prevent  any attack (I guess a little paranoia is a healthy thing in some  cases).  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
484|479|2001-12-06 16:32:28|mat_man22|Re: origami cats, Brent's book & Tony Bigras|Jim  For Brent's book look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/message/444  Would be nice if Hulls would do it, but I don't think it will.  Output to a plasma cutter would also be nice.  Pro-E would work but is expensive and not for "Boat Design".  Rhino 3D would be what I would try. They have free demo. (Search in this group for Rhino and CAD)  Have you looked at a glass MacGregor 36?  http://www.tompatterson.com/Sailing/Sailing/Sailing11.html http://www.mv.com/ipusers/pdelnero/MAC.htm http://www.geocities.com/area51/dunes/6187/ http://www.sailboatowners.com/boats/index.tpl?fno=80  They can be found for under $10K.  Mat|
485|446|2001-12-08 17:13:08|brentswain38|Re: origami cats, design book|Just take any design for a hard chine catamaran having the  displacement you expect,and make a model , then take the plate shapes  off the model , or obtain the plate shapes by computer.For plate  thickness just look at other aluminium catamarans of the same size  and displacement .You can then make an origami model to double check  to see how things work out.    For a copy of my book please send $20 plus $10 for overseas  airmail to suite#427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC     Canada   V9W8C9                                 Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "mat_man22" <mat_man@u...> wrote: > Jim, >  > I am also on the lookout for an aluminum origami catamaran > plans and have not found much.  I would think the French designers > might be a place to look (they are into cats and aluminum). >  > This link is for free (?)  40' origami cat plans. >  > http://www.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/ >  > Please pass on anything you find. >  > Thanks >  > Mat |
486|486|2001-12-13 14:34:10|dr01allen|plastic hulls|I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high density  polyethylene.  thickness ranges are from 1/8 to 1/2".  I'm thinking  that these could be welded to produce a single sheet and just as good  for folding and bending as metal.  they may need some transverse  stiffeners of wood or PVC.  no epoxy, no painting, minimal  maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and one that should  stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a barnacle on a PE  jug).  cost looks about the same as marine plywood, < $40 for 1/4"  and < $80 for 1/2".    any concerns?  da|
487|486|2001-12-13 16:54:34|Stephen Wandling|Re: plastic hulls|I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this technique on the Smallboats forum on Yahoo.  dr01allen wrote:   >  I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high density > polyethylene.  thickness ranges are from 1/8 to 1/2".  I'm thinking > that these could be welded to produce a single sheet and just as good > for folding and bending as metal.  they may need some transverse > stiffeners of wood or PVC.  no epoxy, no painting, minimal > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and one that should > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a barnacle on a PE > jug).  cost looks about the same as marine plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > and < $80 for 1/2". > > any concerns? > > da > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                          ADVERTISEMENT    > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
488|488|2001-12-14 09:12:18|dr01allen|anyone tried Form Z|anyone tried Form Z for hull design?  it has an 'unfold' function  that looks interesting.  according to their website, where the  unfolding starts is selectable by the user.  it'll also add  connection tabs.    I downloaded the demo, the user interface is a bit awkward and the  help function is minimal.  I haven't worked through the manuals yet,  maybe they'll help.  da|
489|486|2001-12-14 10:51:38|martin brumhauer|Re: plastic hulls|My father has a Folboat brand poly boat.  It is a 10' row/outboard boat constructed of ~1/8" sewn sheets that is a true origami boat, as it folds up and unfolds with a one piece hull.  The hull is held in shape with the removeable seats.  These are currently being made, and for those unfamiliar with them they are a boat that folds to ~4" thick by ~20" high by the ~length of the boat. (You may have seen them strapped to the sides of motorhomes)  This boat takes some getting used to as it is flexible, i.e. when you stand in it you can feel and see the bottom flex out under your feet.  One advantage of this, which I don't know how it would work in a large boat, is that the boat rides very smooth as it 'gives' and flexes with a chop.  This give combined with the toughness of poly allows you to beach the boat on a rocky shore with no damage or hard impacts.  The boat is also very stable, as the flexing localizes the impact of weight instead of 'rocking' the boat.  One thing to keep in mind is that HDPE and UHMW have poor tensile strength, and little resistance to flexing.  HDPE also does not have very good impact strength compared to UHMW.  I would think a larger boat would require construction similar to a traditional wooden boat, with a 100% load bearing structural backbone/skeleton planked with the poly.  As far as a small boat, anyone considering an inflatable should check out a folboat first.  JK   --- Stephen Wandling <stephenw@...> wrote:  > I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this > technique on the > Smallboats forum on Yahoo. >  > dr01allen wrote: >  > >  I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high > density > > polyethylene.  thickness ranges are from 1/8 to > 1/2".  I'm thinking > > that these could be welded to produce a single > sheet and just as good > > for folding and bending as metal.  they may need > some transverse > > stiffeners of wood or PVC.  no epoxy, no painting, > minimal > > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and > one that should > > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a > barnacle on a PE > > jug).  cost looks about the same as marine > plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > > and < $80 for 1/2". > > > > any concerns? > > > > da > > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                         ADVERTISEMENT >  >  > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. >  >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com|
490|486|2001-12-14 15:43:02|ravensoars2001|Re: plastic hulls|I have had good results welding UHMW for bow rollers etc.  The  technique requires pressure and precise timing to be sucessful.  A  consideration in attempting to join larger sheets.  An overzealous  forklift operator just bent a pice of 2"X 2" square tube around the  curve of the aft quarter of my 36'.  The hull shows no sign of impact  or distortion whatsoever.  I have little confidence in any plastic to  resist this type of mechanical load.  Given the carnage in Porpoise  Bay after last nights storm (1 wood boat sunk, several glass boats  washed up and damaged, aluminum floats holed etc.) i would be  inclined to perform extensive destructive testing on any welded  plastic hull form prior to investing money in a whole plastic boat.   Imagine the backing plate system you would need under a mooring bit  for example?  What about mounting pintles, mast steps stern tubes  etc?  That said, cross linked plastic and royalex in canoes is a well  proven system for the product.  rt      --- In origamiboats@y..., martin brumhauer <sagedsrt@y...> wrote: > My father has a Folboat brand poly boat.  It is a 10' > row/outboard boat constructed of ~1/8" sewn sheets > that is a true origami boat, as it folds up and > unfolds with a one piece hull.  The hull is held in > shape with the removeable seats.  These are currently > being made, and for those unfamiliar with them they > are a boat that folds to ~4" thick by ~20" high by the > ~length of the boat. (You may have seen them strapped > to the sides of motorhomes)  This boat takes some > getting used to as it is flexible, i.e. when you stand > in it you can feel and see the bottom flex out under > your feet.  One advantage of this, which I don't know > how it would work in a large boat, is that the boat > rides very smooth as it 'gives' and flexes with a > chop.  This give combined with the toughness of poly > allows you to beach the boat on a rocky shore with no > damage or hard impacts.  The boat is also very stable, > as the flexing localizes the impact of weight instead > of 'rocking' the boat.  One thing to keep in mind is > that HDPE and UHMW have poor tensile strength, and > little resistance to flexing.  HDPE also does not have > very good impact strength compared to UHMW.  I would > think a larger boat would require construction similar > to a traditional wooden boat, with a 100% load bearing > structural backbone/skeleton planked with the poly.  > As far as a small boat, anyone considering an > inflatable should check out a folboat first. >  > JK >  >  > --- Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this > > technique on the > > Smallboats forum on Yahoo. > >  > > dr01allen wrote: > >  > > >  I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high > > density > > > polyethylene.  thickness ranges are from 1/8 to > > 1/2".  I'm thinking > > > that these could be welded to produce a single > > sheet and just as good > > > for folding and bending as metal.  they may need > > some transverse > > > stiffeners of wood or PVC.  no epoxy, no painting, > > minimal > > > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and > > one that should > > > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a > > barnacle on a PE > > > jug).  cost looks about the same as marine > > plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > > > and < $80 for 1/2". > > > > > > any concerns? > > > > > > da > > > > > > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >                         ADVERTISEMENT > >  > >  > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > > origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > >  > >  >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com |
491|491|2001-12-15 11:33:42|r_biese|Hi all out there      I need your help|Me Ronald  I've been from France to Australia with a wooden 45 double-ended ketch restored from 1912.  I'm not a wood nut but IS THERE any longkeel ORIGAMI design  not the fast type but blue-water a deep, large and fat seegoing Lady sorry but like the BBW's singing Jazz or Blues Lady's i like to die for.......  If anybody can proof a fin kell as seeworthy and with huge space .... I let's  discuss  a wishbone schooner...... as I did it in Australia, singlehanded... so  something 35' to 40' to sail, and to live on but not a ::: kit  Ronald  to type on a french keyboard well me born in Germany went to school fro UK to ?? and now living in France                          \\|//                        (o o) -------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------------------   "Making the simple complicated is commonplace;     making the complicated simple, awesomely simple,     that's creativity." - Charles Mingus ----------------------------------------------------------------------|
492|491|2001-12-15 16:48:08|Doug Barnard|Van De Staad vs. Origami|So I've been perusing materials from the Van De Staad Design firm, and learning about another form of "high speed" steel construction. I purchased his rather expensive book, (suitable for coffee tables, not construction), some fairly uninformative study plans, and (the gem), his booklet on assembly techniques.  Basically, long strips are developed from the hull design, and built upright in a custom cradle. For the purposes of discussion, I'll make the distinction between the "split orange peel" of origami, and the strips of VDS (Van De Staad). I think that both methods have more in common than not, and, as I've said before, it still amazes me that in the whole wide world, only two dudes have said, "Hey, I need a strong boat and all, but does it have to take so long to build?"  In the case of my trawler design, the VDS method makes a lot of sense to me. As a 48' trawler is pretty damn big compared to a 35' sailboat, this would mean that I have smaller pieces to deal with. In humble apology to those that cheer the modular method, I'm hoping to avoid using any kind of heavy machinery to deal with the hull during construction. The cradle will allow me to better align the plates, and to check them against the Table of Offsets. I find the idea somewhat scary of trusting my computer drafting and metalworking skills so completely that I'd build the two halves of the hull independent of each other. Imagine if they didn't fit together! Yikes!  Here's what I don't like about VDS: He doesn't seem to use longitudinal stringers, and (according to my study plans) requires transverse ribs every 1'4". All of the photographs that I've seen don't have the ribs or the stringers in place, so if anyone can clarify this, it would most appreciated. His hull plating steel is 4mm (~5/32"), somewhat less than 3/16". Assembly-wise, he builds a full cradle that has a brace on top that stretches from side to side. I don't know about you guys, but I like to have Mr. Leverage working on my team. Trying to bow out the long strips could be very problematic.  I could see building the support frames like staging, and doing it a row at a time as I worked up the hull sides. Start with the keel, and get that upright. The next stage would be a support structure for the large chine plates and stem. The tops of the  chine plates would be initially joined on to the stem, and allowed to extend out, resting on the staging. The plates would be gradually walked inwards, welded to the stem as they came together. All hull plates would run long, so that they would be cut flush with the transom when the hull had been pulled together.  Once that is together, the staging would be built up a row to support the knuckle plates. Similar to the chines, they would be attached at the stem and bent back into position. I might even be able to use a regular come-along to get the plates together, as the long lever arm would greatly assist me. Same deal with the sheer plates, and the bulwarks. The build-as-I-went staging would also be handy for scaffolding, and when the hull was complete, a sturdy cradle to support the boat during the rest of construction. I'm thinking that 2X4s on a base of railroad ties would be suitable for this staging, with plywood tops and suitable cross-bracing.  As for stringers, I'm thinking like 3/8" X 1", every two feet up the hull sides.  Commentary, please!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler|
493|491|2001-12-17 19:02:27|brentswain38|Re: Hi all out there      I need your help|--One of my 31 footers was done in a single full length keel version.   One of the problems with a full length keel is that the area in the  aft end of the keel amounts to roughly 300 lbs of extra steel in the  stern of the vessel where you need the weight least.Being an area  where weight should be kept to a minimum , it's useless for storage .  and impossible to get into and paint or maintain properly.   Another problem is that you have to fit the full length keel to the  hull from the outside before cutting away the centreline, whereas  with the shorter keel you can simply cut a hole and shove the keel  through.   My last boat had a full length keel and had far less  directional  stability than  my current twin keeler or the newer , long fin  keelers. Directional stability has far more to do with the hull shape  than the length of the keel. My book describes this in much greater  detail. Full length keels have no real advantage over long fin  keels,in terms of seaworthiness , and have many disadvantages.While  building an origami boat with a full length keel is light years  easier than doing it the traditional way, it's quite a bit more  difficult  putting the keel on.                                            Brent Swain   - In origamiboats@y..., "r_biese" <biese.ronald@w...> wrote:  > Me Ronald  > I've been from France to Australia > with a wooden 45 double-ended ketch restored from 1912. >  > I'm not a wood nut but > IS THERE any longkeel ORIGAMI design >  > not the fast type but blue-water > a deep, large and fat seegoing Lady > sorry but like the BBW's singing Jazz or Blues Lady's > i like to die for....... >  > If anybody can proof a fin kell as seeworthy and > with huge space .... I let's  discuss >  > a wishbone schooner...... > as I did it in Australia, singlehanded... > so  > something 35' to 40' > to sail, and to live on > but not a ::: kit >  > Ronald >  > to type on a french keyboard > well me born in Germany > went to school fro UK to ?? > and now living in France  >  >                        \\|// >                        (o o) > -------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------------------------------  --  >   "Making the simple complicated is commonplace;  >    making the complicated simple, awesomely simple,  >    that's creativity." - Charles Mingus > --------------------------------------------------------------------  --|
494|491|2001-12-17 19:13:36|brentswain38|Re: Van De Staad vs. Origami|Doug    Chines have far greater stiffness  than longitudinals, they can be  similar in strength to fully welded longitudinal bulkheads.    Divide the space between chines into equal spaces not exceeding  about 16 inches and put your longitudinals there.   If you plan to foam the hull( and it would be foolish not to) Angle  irons of about 1 inch by 1 inch by 1/4 inch are far stronger  structurally than flat bar.Buying wheelabraded and primed steel  eliminates the old problem of cleaning behind the angle irons before  painting.     5 mm plates of the size you describe ar quite floppy and you'd  have no problem pulling them to shape as log as there wasn't too much  twist in the ends. This method requires far more welding , grinding  and fitting than origami, but may be neccessary for the shape you  seek.                                          Brent Swain      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > So I've been perusing materials from the Van De Staad Design firm,  and > learning about another form of "high speed" steel construction. I  purchased > his rather expensive book, (suitable for coffee tables, not  construction), > some fairly uninformative study plans, and (the gem), his booklet on > assembly techniques. >  > Basically, long strips are developed from the hull design, and  built upright > in a custom cradle. For the purposes of discussion, I'll make the > distinction between the "split orange peel" of origami, and the  strips of > VDS (Van De Staad). I think that both methods have more in common  than not, > and, as I've said before, it still amazes me that in the whole wide  world, > only two dudes have said, "Hey, I need a strong boat and all, but  does it > have to take so long to build?" >  > In the case of my trawler design, the VDS method makes a lot of  sense to me. > As a 48' trawler is pretty damn big compared to a 35' sailboat,  this would > mean that I have smaller pieces to deal with. In humble apology to  those > that cheer the modular method, I'm hoping to avoid using any kind  of heavy > machinery to deal with the hull during construction. The cradle  will allow > me to better align the plates, and to check them against the Table  of > Offsets. I find the idea somewhat scary of trusting my computer  drafting and > metalworking skills so completely that I'd build the two halves of  the hull > independent of each other. Imagine if they didn't fit together!  Yikes! >  > Here's what I don't like about VDS: He doesn't seem to use  longitudinal > stringers, and (according to my study plans) requires transverse  ribs every > 1'4". All of the photographs that I've seen don't have the ribs or  the > stringers in place, so if anyone can clarify this, it would most > appreciated. His hull plating steel is 4mm (~5/32"), somewhat less  than > 3/16". Assembly-wise, he builds a full cradle that has a brace on  top that > stretches from side to side. I don't know about you guys, but I  like to have > Mr. Leverage working on my team. Trying to bow out the long strips  could be > very problematic. >  > I could see building the support frames like staging, and doing it  a row at > a time as I worked up the hull sides. Start with the keel, and get  that > upright. The next stage would be a support structure for the large  chine > plates and stem. The tops of the  chine plates would be initially  joined on > to the stem, and allowed to extend out, resting on the staging. The  plates > would be gradually walked inwards, welded to the stem as they came  together. > All hull plates would run long, so that they would be cut flush  with the > transom when the hull had been pulled together. >  > Once that is together, the staging would be built up a row to  support the > knuckle plates. Similar to the chines, they would be attached at  the stem > and bent back into position. I might even be able to use a regular > come-along to get the plates together, as the long lever arm would  greatly > assist me. Same deal with the sheer plates, and the bulwarks. The > build-as-I-went staging would also be handy for scaffolding, and  when the > hull was complete, a sturdy cradle to support the boat during the  rest of > construction. I'm thinking that 2X4s on a base of railroad ties  would be > suitable for this staging, with plywood tops and suitable cross- bracing. >  > As for stringers, I'm thinking like 3/8" X 1", every two feet up  the hull > sides. >  > Commentary, please! >  > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in design phase of > "Iron Lotus" > 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T origami steel trawler |
495|486|2001-12-22 18:57:41|brentswain38|Re: plastic hulls|--Steve    What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit.                                           Brent Swain  - In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote:  > I have had good results welding UHMW for bow rollers etc.  The  > technique requires pressure and precise timing to be sucessful.  A  > consideration in attempting to join larger sheets.  An overzealous  > forklift operator just bent a pice of 2"X 2" square tube around the  > curve of the aft quarter of my 36'.  The hull shows no sign of   impact   > or distortion whatsoever.  I have little confidence in any plastic   to   > resist this type of mechanical load.  Given the carnage in Porpoise  > Bay after last nights storm (1 wood boat sunk, several glass boats  > washed up and damaged, aluminum floats holed etc.) i would be  > inclined to perform extensive destructive testing on any welded  > plastic hull form prior to investing money in a whole plastic   boat.    > Imagine the backing plate system you would need under a mooring bit  > for example?  What about mounting pintles, mast steps stern tubes  > etc?  That said, cross linked plastic and royalex in canoes is a   well   > proven system for the product.  rt    >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., martin brumhauer <sagedsrt@y...> wrote: > > My father has a Folboat brand poly boat.  It is a 10' > > row/outboard boat constructed of ~1/8" sewn sheets > > that is a true origami boat, as it folds up and > > unfolds with a one piece hull.  The hull is held in > > shape with the removeable seats.  These are currently > > being made, and for those unfamiliar with them they > > are a boat that folds to ~4" thick by ~20" high by the > > ~length of the boat. (You may have seen them strapped > > to the sides of motorhomes)  This boat takes some > > getting used to as it is flexible, i.e. when you stand > > in it you can feel and see the bottom flex out under > > your feet.  One advantage of this, which I don't know > > how it would work in a large boat, is that the boat > > rides very smooth as it 'gives' and flexes with a > > chop.  This give combined with the toughness of poly > > allows you to beach the boat on a rocky shore with no > > damage or hard impacts.  The boat is also very stable, > > as the flexing localizes the impact of weight instead > > of 'rocking' the boat.  One thing to keep in mind is > > that HDPE and UHMW have poor tensile strength, and > > little resistance to flexing.  HDPE also does not have > > very good impact strength compared to UHMW.  I would > > think a larger boat would require construction similar > > to a traditional wooden boat, with a 100% load bearing > > structural backbone/skeleton planked with the poly.  > > As far as a small boat, anyone considering an > > inflatable should check out a folboat first. > >  > > JK > >  > >  > > --- Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > > > I suspect there would be a lot of interest in this > > > technique on the > > > Smallboats forum on Yahoo. > > >  > > > dr01allen wrote: > > >  > > > >  I've just found a source for 4X8 sheets of high > > > density > > > > polyethylene.  thickness ranges are from 1/8 to > > > 1/2".  I'm thinking > > > > that these could be welded to produce a single > > > sheet and just as good > > > > for folding and bending as metal.  they may need > > > some transverse > > > > stiffeners of wood or PVC.  no epoxy, no painting, > > > minimal > > > > maintenence, an inherent non-wetting surface, and > > > one that should > > > > stay relatively free of hitchhikers (never seen a > > > barnacle on a PE > > > > jug).  cost looks about the same as marine > > > plywood, < $40 for 1/4" > > > > and < $80 for 1/2". > > > > > > > > any concerns? > > > > > > > > da > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > >                         ADVERTISEMENT > > >  > > >  > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > > > origamiboats@y... > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > > Terms of Service. > > >  > > >  > >  > >  > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com |
496|496|2001-12-23 13:21:27|greenguy2ca|Rust|In building the steel boat supposing there has been some rust because  the original primer coating was scraped off or you did not property  wire brush and coat a weld on the inside.  Would the process of epoxy  and paint fix that or will you have a rust through point at some  point in the future.  No matter how thorough you hope to be I am sure  that there is going to be some unprotected steel somewhere in the  boat particularly on the interior underneath the angle iron or where  ever.  Thanks|
497|486|2001-12-24 13:49:30|dr01allen|Re: plastic hulls|--- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote:  > --Steve >    What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. >                                           Brent Swain  it's in an industrial maintenance catalog at work.  I'll have to wait  until after the 2nd to get the details.  da|
498|498|2001-12-27 11:46:29|alex_christie|new photos of 36 footer|Dear Group,  I have posted 2 new photos showing good view so the 36 foot  fin-keeler, Moonraven for your viewing pleasure.  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
499|496|2001-12-27 17:41:58|brentswain38|Re: Rust|--We've never worried much about the smaller chips and it hasn't  mattered much. Many of the new epoxies (like bar rust 235) are quite  surface tolerant when it comes to small amounts of rust.I've been told  that newer ones are coming out which are even more surface tolerant.   Larger missed spots should be touched up at the first opporunity,  or, if they get rusty, cleaned up with the grinder and primed. If you  have most of your welding done and it's the wrong time of year for  painting, another coat of primer should hold the fort until spring.   3/16th plate , left bare and damp on one side , will take roughly 15  years to rust through , if there is no electrolysis happining.                Brent Swain    - In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote:  > In building the steel boat supposing there has been some rust   because   > the original primer coating was scraped off or you did not property  > wire brush and coat a weld on the inside.  Would the process of   epoxy   > and paint fix that or will you have a rust through point at some  > point in the future.  No matter how thorough you hope to be I am   sure   > that there is going to be some unprotected steel somewhere in the  > boat particularly on the interior underneath the angle iron or where  > ever. >  > Thanks |
500|500|2001-12-27 23:47:33|alex_christie|Companionway hatch design and construction|Bert and Jan wrote me asking about the companion way hatches  on Moonraven.  My reply to them couldn't be sent because of a  problem with their yahoo mail, so I'll post it here, and others  perhaps would like to add anything they know about hatches on  Brent boats.  I've put their question here, an old response from  Brent from the archives, and lastly my two cents worth:  --- bertandjan <bertandjan@...> wrote:  > Alex, >  > Thanks for the pics of Moonraven...  >  > I wonder how much the 36' fin keel version draws?? >  > And, did you build the sturdy looking companionway > door from scratch? > What did you gasket it with?  Interested in its > design.... >  > All the best, >  > Bert (and Jan) Eggers....snowy Saginaw, Mi >   Dear Bert and Jan,  The companion way hatches on Brent's boats are one of the most well thought-out structures I have seen on a sailboat, and it has often made me wonder why people use anything else for metal boats.  The aft bulkhead of the  pilothouse is slanted forward a little more than most boats, to begin with.  When entering the boat, this allows a person to walk down into the boat without stooping (depending on your height), and avoids the need to have a sliding companionway hatch on top.   A lip of stainless is welded to the bulkhead all around the hatch entry way, making a good mating surface for the neoprene gasketing of the aluminum hatch to seal against (the hatch door itself has a lip which fits around the outside of the lip on the boat --- I'd imagine this would make it very difficult for thieves to get much gap to pry open the door).  There are two pintle hinges on one side, and a simple lever latch on the other which dogs down the hatch very securely. It looks from the photo that the Moonraven people have put two levers, though I doubt it would be needed considering the stiffness of the aluminum over such a short distance.  Some folks put small plexi windows or a portlight in the door, but in Moonraven's case they put it next to the door.  The door is not heavy, being of aluminum, so does not present a danger to the occupant by swining. Because it is on pintle hinges, it can easily be lifted off when the door is open, but cannot be slid off when the door is dogged tight (nice if you are upside down inside a rogue wave...).  Being a scaredy-cat when it comes to pondering deep sea passages, I like this "submarine" style of door!  I have also noticed that Brent doesn't bother with opening ports on his own boat, simply plexi properly bedded with goop and a neoprene gasket. He has achieved sufficient ventilation via the forward hatch (the bow usually being in the wind at anchor), flowing out the aft hatch and main cabin hatch.  I think his philosophy is that if it can't open, then it can't cause you grief in a storm.  As for draft, Brent wrote about some of the basic specs in (I think) message #375 a ways back.  I will copy and paste here what he wrote:  "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel  weight, (4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead  ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel .   Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel. Altho I've built a 36 ft hull in ideal conditions, and shell ( hull deck cabin cockpit , keels, skeg tacked together in 6 days, it usually takes 2 to 3 weeks ."  I am planning on building a 40 foot Swain hull, which I believe draws 4.5 feet with the bilge keels, but I'd have to look at my plans again to find out.  Of course, being steel, there is some variability in the choices you can make for draft simply by adding on.  Myself being a former river canoeist, I'll have to simply get used to drawing that much, and be thankful that I can dry out on a mudflat if I miscalculate when anchoring.    Regards,  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
501|500|2001-12-28 19:56:16|mark_schlichting11|Re: Companionway hatch design and construction|--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote:   > As for draft, Brent wrote about some of the basic > specs in (I think) message #375 a ways back.  I will > copy and paste here what he wrote: >  > "Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck ."   Either the copying or the pasting was faulty because what Brent  actually wrote (correctly, I might add) was:  "Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck."|
502|502|2001-12-30 09:55:17|Douglas Pollard|Refrigeration|Hi Folks,     This is not Origami so I guess its off subject but I hope it may be of some use to those who build and go off cruising in boats  Here 'is a little stunt I learned while living aboard in the tropics. Most you who move aboard their boats, will at some point wind up in hot weather and will install some sort of refrigeration.      I put in engine driven refrigeration that is also driven by a one horse electric motor at the dock simply by switching the belt from engine to motor.      If you work on your own unit you will need a vacuum pump to pull it down to - 30" of mercury. Well I bought a hand vacuum pump at an automotive store that is used by mechanics to check vacuum diaphragms and such on automobiles. These pumps sell for about $45.00 US. One of them will pull about - 25 inches of mercury, not good enough for refrigeration.       So, here is how I used mine. I have a shut off valve in the low pressure side right next to my refrigeration compressor and one just before my expansion valve in the high pressure side.        Shut off the valve on high pressure side of line and use your compressor to pump low pressure side over into the high pressure side and bleed off high pressure side.     Warning: I would not do this on a new installation as there may not be enough oil in the system to lubricate the pump and to pull down a system in use I would not let the pump run for an extended period even on an already used unit.     You should be able to pull down the low side to about -28 inches of mercury [less than perfect]  Shut off the valve on the low pressure side. Now you have a vacuum on the low side and atmospheric pressure on the high side 14 psi approx. Here is where the hand vacuum pump comes in. Using the hand pump you can pull this side down to about -25 inches of mercury,takes a lot of pumping. When you open the valves between high and low sides, you will have about -26 or -27 inches in the whole system. At this point you can fill your system. it will be less then perfect and you may experience a certain amount of icing up in your expansion valve but you have cold beer.       Now here is where you have to let your conscience be your guide this is not legal in the US and I'm not sure about other places. Before you fill your unit, you could put some refrigerant in the system and pump it out by the same above method. By doing this a couple of times you can eliminate any moisture or air that may be in the unit. Every time you do this it gets better.     I don't recommend doing this but if you  were a long way from help it would be something I would at least consider as even a little freezing in the expansion valve is a pain in the neck.     By the way I use the 134 a  refrigerant that they sell in automotive stores in my system. Apparently it must not  be to hard on the atmosphere as they sell it to people who have no means or knowledge of refrigerant recovery systems. It is cheap and puts refrigeration back in the hands of the amateur.      The only drawback is it takes longer to pull your system down when in use. So you have a longer engine run time. It takes about 45 minutes run time to pull down my refrigerator.     I have a hundred amp alternator and that run time charges my batteries as well. The problem is you get sloppy about burning lights and using the single side band radio and all of this is wear on your engine.      We did without refrigeration about five years but I finally gave in, as my wife was about to mutiny. I'll have to admit it didn't take long to acquire a taste for cold beer again.     So you boat builders out there may want to keep this in mind for a future day when you will also give in.                                                                                                  Doug Pollard       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
503|486|2002-01-03 09:00:44|dr01allen|Re: plastic hulls|it's in the Chisom wholesale catalog.  (800 8442484, no website that  I can see)  catalog #359, item# 90021 is the 1/4",  4X8 sheet of high  density polyethylene.  41.2 lbs, $39.75 in singles.  it's available  from 1/8" to 1/2", weight and price scale with thickness.  they also have a selection of stainless bolts, screws, and threaded  rod.  da    >    What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. >                                           Brent Swain > |
504|504|2002-01-03 09:09:36|phillipdallen|I'd like to see|Is anyone building (or otherwise working on) an origami boat near  Northwest Arkansas?|
505|486|2002-01-03 10:47:58|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: plastic hulls|Have you tried http://www.ultrapoly.com/ <http://www.ultrapoly.com/> ?  Stephen Ditmore  New York      -----Original Message----- From: dr01allen [mailto:davidallen@...] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:01 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plastic hulls     it's in the Chisom wholesale catalog.  (800 8442484, no website that  I can see)  catalog #359, item# 90021 is the 1/4",  4X8 sheet of high  density polyethylene.  41.2 lbs, $39.75 in singles.  it's available  from 1/8" to 1/2", weight and price scale with thickness.  they also have a selection of stainless bolts, screws, and threaded  rod.  da    >    What is your souce of 4x8 ft sheets of poly ? I could use a bit. >                                           Brent Swain >      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
506|434|2002-01-03 15:04:17|ravensoars2001|Re: material|Welding:  the decision to build a metal boat depends on what, where  and how much you have available in terms of resources.  I am building  in steel. This means that I can build and weld in outdoor west coast  winter conditions-or wherever.  Simple and inexpensive transformer  welding power scources and basic affordable stick (SMAW) welding rods  can be easily purchaced for this type of welding.  As soon as we move  into more sophisticated welding techniques we require controlled  atmospheric environment and more money.  One of the most significant  advantages of Brent's oragami proceedure is the lack of welding  involved.  The seams are comparativly short and the stitch welding  for stringers etc is minimal.  This saves on distortion, time, cost,  edge prep, clean up and overall welding costs.  Perhaps, more  significantly (in terms of quality) it reduces the probability of  defects.  I was able to purchase an ancient propane cutting torch at  a swap meet for $12--it works better than the $300 torch we use at  the school--for this job.  This type of cutting lends itself well to  stick welding.  Another advantage of basic stick welding is the  ability to weld stainless to mild steel, galvanised pipe to plate  etc.  This can be done at the change of a rod unlike wire feed.  Wire  feed is easy to learn at first but the process is deceptive in that  it can produce neat looking welds that leak, corode and that can,  under stress, break away from the parent metal.  Oxy-Propane cutting  and stick welding steel is a simple, honest, practical and relativly  inexpensive way for the average builder to construct a one off  vessel.  rt   --- In origamiboats@y..., "batsondbelfrey" <Robert.Biegler@s...>  wrote:  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > > I believe that you have to heliarc titanium, a real pain! That  > > stuff is gnarly! >  > Another nice idea shot down by reality.  Sigh.  At the moment I   know   > next to nothing about welding, I am reading this group because the  > method seems interesting and I really *like* the idea of an impact  > resistant hull. >  > I got an email reply from John Barker, but there was no text.    John,   > your computer may have a case of Badtrans. >  > Regards >  > Robert |
507|434|2002-01-03 16:03:03|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: material|For some reason I seem to be getting pieces of a conversation, so I'm not sure how this "plastic hulls" topic got started or what it's all about. However, especially in the larger sizes, I think an Origami design could be built from DuFlex http://www.atlcomposites.com/products_composite_duflex_intro.htm <http://www.atlcomposites.com/products_composite_duflex_intro.htm> .  This would open the possibility, it seems to me, of building an Origami vessel large enough to be a passenger or charter vessel.   Stephen Ditmore    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
508|498|2002-01-07 18:12:03|ravensoars2001|Re: new photos of 36 footer|Alex, nice boat.  May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and  where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt   --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Dear Group, >  > I have posted 2 new photos showing good view so the 36 foot  > fin-keeler, Moonraven for your viewing pleasure. >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) |
509|498|2002-01-07 20:06:36|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: new photos of 36 footer|----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: new photos of 36 footer   > Alex, nice boat.  May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and > where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt  Moonraven is berthed in Comox, but I know little of its life other than that.  Brent knows the owners, I believe, and may be able to tell us more.  Alex  (moderator) |
510|498|2002-01-07 21:46:07|evanmoonjunk|Re: new photos of 36 footer|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: new photos of 36 footer >  >  > > Alex, nice boat.  May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and > > where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt >  > Moonraven is berthed in Comox, but I know little of its life other   than  > that.  Brent knows the owners, I believe, and may be able to tell   us more.  >  > Alex > Hi Alex, Moonraven is owned by Doug and Judy Vansickle. It was   started in 1984,I think, Brent and I worked together for several days  on it, after which I worked on it quite a bit more and then Doug  finished off the rest....Evan  > |
511|511|2002-01-09 12:44:44|alex_christie|39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta|Dear Group,  I have just recently returned from a trip to Alberta, where I visited  a boatbuilder who is fitting out his 39 foot aluminum origami hull.  See photo album for pix (Under, "Aluminum 39 Footer"). It is being  completed inside a greenhouse, so I couldn't get any full-hull shots,  but the details may be interesting to examine.   This hull is not technically a Swain hull, but rather a modification  based on his 36 foot design, done by a company called Fastwater (now  closed) in Vancouver.  The hull was trucked from Vancouver to  Alberta, luckily without ballast installed, so it was an easy haul  being aluminum.  It is one of only a full hulls of its type, possibly  only 1 of 2.  The company which built the bare hull did a few things  differently on this one. Firstly, the hard chine midships has been  replaced by sections of a radius, smoothing out that area. There is  some debate as to whether the time spent rounding off the chine (and  risking heat distortion) adds much in speed, and I would tend to  think it doesn't much. But it certainly looks pretty!   The rudder and skeg (more high aspect than most Swain hulls)has been  moved inboard of a reverse transom, and the cooling system is no  longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-heat  exchanger system.  The owner has put in three different kinds of  steering for redundancy, pedestal steering (mechanical), emergency  tiller steering (mechanical, on top of rudder shaft), and hydraulic  (inside steering station). The boat is going to be equipped for  diving, so there is a large gate which folds out from the transom but  folds flush when in the up position.   It is an interesting looking boat, and it was very handy to be able  to walk around inside a vessel of similar size to the 40 I plan to  build. I got all sorts of ideas as to what could fit in a boat that  big, and it is certainly cavernous compared to the 36.  This bodes  well for fitting my family of 4 and two 55 lb dogs onboard (anyone  looking to adopt a nice pair of dogs in about 3 years??).  The owner plans on completing the hull and launching it in Vancouver,  after which he and his wife will live aboard and cruise locally for a  bit before undertaking off-shore ventures, possibly around the world.  In the coming weeks I hope to get over to Vancouver and see the two  40 foot steel boats and get some photos and information on those  vessels, one of which is afloat, the other being finished. Stay tuned!  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
512|512|2002-01-09 18:04:34|winslow59|Brent, Board Members:  If building today - steel or aluminum?|36-40 ft sailboat for live-aboard and voyaging (the pelagic life).   Steel or Aluminum - which and why?   (I've read some of the books & articles by designers and engineers  -  I'm curious to read about the decisions of folks who are spending  their own money and/or time building and will sail their own boats.)  -Markus|
513|511|2002-01-11 14:26:14|lbanerd|Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta|--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote:  > and the cooling system is no  > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-heat  > exchanger system.     Could you elaborate on this?   I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How  does it work?  - L Banerd|
514|511|2002-01-11 15:08:15|brentswain38|Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta|Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling  systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater through a  complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw  water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole surface  of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling surface  available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of a  heat exchanger system.    Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a cooling  tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top of  the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom.  Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the skeg  results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating the  need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of  surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my  boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP  with no  problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every couple  of years eliminates any corrosion problems .                                               Brent Swain    - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote:  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > and the cooling system is no  > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-  heat   > > exchanger system.   >  > Could you elaborate on this?  >  > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How  > does it work? >  > - L Banerd |
516|516|2002-01-12 01:44:19|alex_christie|twin keel article|Many of the Swain designed hulls feature twin keels.  Here is a link  for an interesting article about twin keel applications on different  kind of yachts, written by Vancouver naval architect Patrick Bray: http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
517|517|2002-01-13 18:40:55|alex_christie|Swain 30 for sale|For anyone looking for a steel boat in the 30 foot range, I've come  across a listing for a Swain 30 (steel) for sale in the Buy and Sell  (Vancouver).  The ad states:  30' 1976 BRENT SWAIN STEEL SLOOP, near new Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke, 2  anchors, furling jib, solar panel, windlass, Dickinson diesel heater,  VHF, $28,500 Cdn. OBO. Call  Tel: 604-831-8092   I'll post the photo in the Photos section as, "aSwain30.jpg"  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
518|518|2002-01-13 23:19:49|alex_christie|New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop|For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel have  been added to the photos section.  This boat was built on Vancouver  Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain  27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed through  the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons.  This is his third  steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at  this site:  http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
519|519|2002-01-16 13:25:09|Sigge Johansson|Skeg as a cooling tank|Interesting solution.  Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a 50feet steelsailer?  And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with seawater?  Any suggestions?  Sigge Johansson   ----- Original Message -----  From: brentswain38 <brentswain38@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta   >   Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling  > systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater through a  > complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw  > water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole surface  > of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling surface  > available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of a  > heat exchanger system. >    Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a cooling  > tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top of  > the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom.  > Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the skeg  > results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating the  > need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of  > surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my  > boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP  with no  > problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every couple  > of years eliminates any corrosion problems . >                                               Brent Swain >  >  >  > - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > > > and the cooling system is no  > > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water- > heat  > > > exchanger system.   > >  > > Could you elaborate on this?  > >  > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How  > > does it work? > >  > > - L Banerd >  >  >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >             ADVERTISEMENT >             >       >       >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  >  > |
520|520|2002-01-19 12:03:35|r_biese|44 double ender|Hiya in the files section there is a 44 double ender Junk sail  first question where does the design comes from ?  what about draft, beam etc  I would like to build one as a gaff ketch  as I like them.....  Ronald|
521|518|2002-01-20 10:11:43|russa1111|Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop|--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote:  > For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel   have   > been added to the photos section.  This boat was built on Vancouver  > Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain  > 27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed   through   > the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons.  This is his third  > steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at  > this site: >  > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator)   Hi Alex, Just popped back to check on the group after being absent for a few  months. You have certainly been busy.  I had a look at Winston's boat about 18months ago when I last saw  Gene. It is a very well built and finished boat but the new photo's  don't show the most interesting feature of this boat which is that, in  common with the other Dove, it is fitted with a much taller wheelhouse  rather than a pilothouse.   It is also good to see that construction of the Aluminum boat is  underway again.  Russ Ashworth.|
522|518|2002-01-20 10:12:00|russa1111|Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop|--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote:  > For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel   have   > been added to the photos section.  This boat was built on Vancouver  > Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain  > 27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed   through   > the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons.  This is his third  > steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at  > this site: >  > http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator)   Hi Alex, Just popped back to check on the group after being absent for a few  months. You have certainly been busy.  I had a look at Winston's boat about 18months ago when I last saw  Gene. It is a very well built and finished boat but the new photo's  don't show the most interesting feature of this boat which is that, in  common with the other Dove, it is fitted with a much taller wheelhouse  rather than a pilothouse.   It is also good to see that construction of the Aluminum boat is  underway again.  Russ Ashworth.|
523|519|2002-01-21 14:40:06|brentswain38|Re: Skeg as a cooling tank|It takes about 1.5 square ft per 10 horsepower. If you don't have  enough surface area in the skeg, you can also use the back of the  keel, or weld channel iron, or a cooling tank inside the hull to make  up the extra surface area . I usually go for a dry exhaust , but some  people just put in a separate pump to cool the exhaust . It's still a  lot less problem prone to simply pump seawater direct to the exhaust  than to pump it through the entire engine heat exchanger , filters,  etc .                                        Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...> wrote: > Interesting solution.  > Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a 50feet  steelsailer?  > And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with  seawater?  > Any suggestions? >  > Sigge Johansson >  > ----- Original Message -----  > From: brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta >  >  > >   Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling  > > systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater  through a  > > complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw  > > water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole  surface  > > of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling  surface  > > available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of  a  > > heat exchanger system. > >    Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a  cooling  > > tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top  of  > > the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom.  > > Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the  skeg  > > results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating  the  > > need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of  > > surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my  > > boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP  with no  > > problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every  couple  > > of years eliminates any corrosion problems . > >                                               Brent Swain > >  > >  > >  > > - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote: > > > > and the cooling system is no  > > > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water- > > heat  > > > > exchanger system.   > > >  > > > Could you elaborate on this?  > > >  > > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg.  How  > > > does it work? > > >  > > > - L Banerd > >  > >  > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  > >             ADVERTISEMENT > >             > >       > >       > >  > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  > >  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  > >  > > |
524|519|2002-01-21 14:45:57|brentswain38|Re: Skeg as a cooling tank|It's best to do a bit of an overkill when it comes to surface area  of a skeg cooler as it's easy to do in the building stage and much  harder to do after the fact.                                         Brent Swain  - In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote:  > It takes about 1.5 square ft per 10 horsepower. If you don't have  > enough surface area in the skeg, you can also use the back of the  > keel, or weld channel iron, or a cooling tank inside the hull to   make   > up the extra surface area . I usually go for a dry exhaust , but   some   > people just put in a separate pump to cool the exhaust . It's still   a   > lot less problem prone to simply pump seawater direct to the   exhaust   > than to pump it through the entire engine heat exchanger , filters,  > etc . >                                        Brent Swain >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Sigge Johansson" <siggej@h...> wrote: > > Interesting solution.  > > Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a   50feet   > steelsailer?  > > And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with  > seawater?  > > Any suggestions? > >  > > Sigge Johansson > >  > > ----- Original Message -----  > > From: brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> > > To: <origamiboats@y...> > > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:08 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta > >  > >  > > >   Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water   cooling   > > > systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater  > through a  > > > complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or   raw   > > > water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole  > surface  > > > of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling  > surface  > > > available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity   of   > a  > > > heat exchanger system. > > >    Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a  > cooling  > > > tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the   top   > of  > > > the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the   bottom.   > > > Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of   the   > skeg  > > > results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating  > the  > > > need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft   of   > > > surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on   my   > > > boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP  with no  > > > problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every  > couple  > > > of years eliminates any corrosion problems . > > >                                               Brent Swain > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > - In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" <lbanerd@t...> wrote: > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...>  > wrote: > > > > > and the cooling system is no  > > > > > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-  water-  > > > heat  > > > > > exchanger system.   > > > >  > > > > Could you elaborate on this?  > > > >  > > > > I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg.  > How  > > > > does it work? > > > >  > > > > - L Banerd > > >  > > >  > > >       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  > > >             ADVERTISEMENT > > >             > > >       > > >       > > >  > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > > >  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.  > > >  > > > |
525|520|2002-01-21 15:25:30|brentswain38|Re: 44 double ender|Jack Carson bought a 36 footer which had been built as a double ender   and cut it in half, put 8 ft in the middle, pushed the beam out,  etc  , etc , and ended up with a 44 footer.                                           Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "r_biese" <biese.ronald@w...> wrote: > Hiya > in the files section there is a 44 double ender > Junk sail >  > first question > where does the design comes from ? >  > what about draft, beam etc >  > I would like to build one > as a gaff ketch  as I like them..... >  > Ronald |
526|526|2002-01-23 23:20:42|lonedamnwolf1|origami cat|Hello Everybody,      Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of  aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so  simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design  would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing  something that makes this impossible?  Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this.                                                       Thanks,                                                      James Floyd|
527|526|2002-01-23 23:28:29|Gary Lepak|Re: origami cat|----- Original Message ----- From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat   > Hello Everybody, > >     Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > >                                                      Thanks, >                                                      James Floyd Hi James,  Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required.  I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary |
528|526|2002-01-24 09:43:22|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat|The site you may be thinking of for the tortured plywood canoes is http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> .  This method uses vertical cuts up to the gunwale.  Whether it's adaptable to metal construction is a good question...   Also, multihull designer Kurt Hughes has developed some worthwhile strategies for rapid construction.  His web site is http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/>  Similarly Derek Kelsell in England and others.   Stephen Ditmore       -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami cat      ----- Original Message ----- From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat   > Hello Everybody, > >     Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > >                                                      Thanks, >                                                      James Floyd Hi James,  Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required.  I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=264812229> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
529|526|2002-01-24 11:27:41|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat|This may be sacrilege in this forum, but let me also note that you can do pretty well using foam & fiberglass.  Go to http://www.dcss.org/ayrs/newsltrs/july97/ <http://www.dcss.org/ayrs/newsltrs/july97/>  and, on the left, click on "Quick Hull-Building."   Having said that, it would be interesting to explore whether Stillwater Boats' method is applicable to metal multis.   Stephen        -----Original Message----- From: Ditmore, Stephen  Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 9:43 AM To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat    The site you may be thinking of for the tortured plywood canoes is http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> .  This method uses vertical cuts up to the gunwale.  Whether it's adaptable to metal construction is a good question...   Also, multihull designer Kurt Hughes has developed some worthwhile strategies for rapid construction.  His web site is http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/>  Similarly Derek Kelsell in England and others.   Stephen Ditmore       -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@...] Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 11:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami cat      ----- Original Message ----- From: "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat   > Hello Everybody, > >     Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing > something that makes this impossible? > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > >                                                      Thanks, >                                                      James Floyd Hi James,  Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required.  I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=264812229> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
530|530|2002-01-24 13:38:30|kupris1948|dumb epoxy paint question # 1209|What if epoxy is applied to epoxy after the recoat time? what happens? does a slippery surface make the new paint not stick  well? does the surface have to be roughed up, mechanically or  chemically?|
531|531|2002-01-24 14:33:40|carlmbentley|engines|with winter here i'm hoping more of you are reading the board, actually i hope you are all in the islands but . . . since i'm not, i have a question or two.  first: is there one (or three) brand of engine that everyone agrees is the best. well actually i'm just interested to see what some of you think in general, be it price v/s performance, lifespans, ease of maintance, or lack of part availability etc etc for different inboard diesel options.  this seems to be the one of the expenses that can't really be avoided (aside from not having one) can't make your own, can go used i suppose, or improvise . . .  let's say you have to buy one though - comments ?  that's it, i'll hold off on the rest of my questions till after i read brents book, sorry if he covers this one already  -carl|
532|530|2002-01-24 14:37:12|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: dumb epoxy paint question # 1209|Kupris1948 asks,  > What if epoxy is applied to epoxy after the recoat time? > what happens? does a slippery surface make the new paint not stick > well? does the surface have to be roughed up, mechanically or > chemically?    Epoxy as it cures gives off an "amine blush" as a byproduct of the cross-linking reaction.  Another layer of epoxy can be applied while the original layer is in the "gel stage" (middle stage) and still acheive chemical bonding,  but after final cure state is acheived, only mechanical bonding is possible. If more epoxy must be applied after the recoat time, the amine blush has to be removed and, as you mentioned already the surface has to be mechanically roughened.  For West System epoxy, washing with water and scrubbing with something like a 3m Scotchbrite(tm) pad is required, followed by sanding with 80-grit sandpaper, before a recoat is attempted. Don't skip the water wash and scrub, or you'll just grind the amine blush into grooves created by sanding!  Applying epoxy within the specified recoat time would be preferable in an ideal world, as this means that all layers are chemically linked together into one nice thick layer.  Here is what West System says on their website, at http://www.westsystem.com .  They've got excellent technical data about epoxy:  Surface preparation  Whether you are bonding, fairing or applying fabrics, the success of the application depends not only on the strength of the epoxy, but also on how well the epoxy adheres to the surface to which it is being applied. Unless you are bonding to partially cured epoxy, the strength of the bond relies on the epoxy's ability to mechanically "key" into the surface. That is why the following three steps of surface preparation are a critical part of any secondary bonding operation.  For good adhesion, bonding surfaces should be:  1. Clean Bonding surfaces must be free of any contaminants such as grease, oil, wax or mold release. Clean contaminated surfaces with lacquer thinner, acetone or other appropriate solvent. Wipe the surface with paper towels before the solvent dries. Clean surfaces before sanding to avoid sanding the contaminant into the surface. Follow all safety precautions when working with solvents.  2. Dry All bonding surfaces must be as dry as possible for good adhesion. If necessary, accelerate drying by warming the bonding surface with a hot air gun, hair dryer or heat lamp. Use fans to move the air in confined or enclosed spaces. Watch for condensation when working outdoors or whenever the temperature of the work environment changes.  3. Sanded Sand smooth non-porous surfaces-thoroughly abrade the surface. 80-grit aluminum oxide paper will provide a good texture for the epoxy to "key" into. Be sure the surface to be bonded is solid. Remove any flaking, chalking, blistering, or old coating before sanding. Remove all dust after sanding.  Special preparation for various materials  Cured epoxy-Amine blush can appear as a wax-like film on cured epoxy surfaces. It is a by-product of the curing process and may be more noticeable in cool, moist conditions. Amine blush can clog sandpaper and inhibit subsequent bonding, but it can easily be removed. It's a good idea to assume it has formed on any cured epoxy surface.  To remove the blush, wash the surface with clean water (not solvent) and an abrasive pad, such as Scotch-brite(tm) 7447 General Purpose Hand Pads. Dry the surface with paper towels to remove the dissolved blush before it dries on the surface. Sand any remaining glossy areas with 80-grit sandpaper. Wet-sanding will also remove the amine blush. If a release fabric is applied over the surface of fresh epoxy, amine blush will be removed when the release fabric is peeled from the cured epoxy and no additional sanding is required.  Epoxy surfaces that have not fully cured may be bonded to or coated with epoxy without washing or sanding. Before applying coatings other than epoxy (paints, bottom paints, varnishes, gelcoats, etc.), allow epoxy surfaces to cure fully, then wash and sand.  Hardwoods-Sand with 80-grit paper.  Teak/oily woods-Wipe with acetone 15 minutes before coating. Solvent removes the oil at the surface and allows epoxy to penetrate. Be sure solvent has evaporated before coating.  Porous woods-No special preparation needed. If surface is burnished, possibly by dull planer or saw blades, sand with 80-grit paper to open pores. Remove dust.  Steel, lead-Remove contamination, sand or grind to bright metal, coat with epoxy then sand fresh epoxy into surface. Re-coat or bond after first coat gels.  Aluminum-Sand and prepare with 860 Aluminum Etch Kit. Polyester (fiberglass)-Clean contamination with a silicone and wax remover such as DuPont Prep-Sol(tm) 3919S. Sand with 80-grit paper to a dull finish.  Plastic-Adhesion varies. If a plastic is impervious to solvents such as acetone, epoxy generally will not bond to it. Soft, flexible plastics such as polyethylene, polypropylene, nylon, Plexiglas and polycarbonate fall into this category.  Hard, rigid plastics such as PVC, ABS and styrene provide better adhesion with good surface preparation and adequate bonding area. After sanding, flame oxidizing (by quickly passing propane torch over the surface without melting the plastic) can improve bonding in some plastics. It's a good idea to conduct an adhesion test on a plastic that you are uncertain about.|
533|531|2002-01-24 19:27:34|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: engines|My tidbit to add to the engine question is just this:  If you plan on cruising in one geographic area, then choose an engine from a manufacturer which gives you plenty of access to reasonably priced parts. If you plan to go offshore, then getting an engine that has world-wide support is handy, though there will always be one place or another which won't have what you need.  If I thought I was going to cruise exclusively in a certain area, then I'd find an engine which is supported well in that region.  What is the most popular marine engine in, say, the Carribean?  I know that sounds obvious, but that didn't stop me from falling into the trap of buying a used Perkins diesel for a fire-sale price, only to learn that the parts-support network was virtually non-existent on the British Columbia coast.  The result was that I had an engine that I could not install in my boat because I lacked key parts to mate it to the transmission. This was not the fault of Perkins, but the fault of Detroit-Diesel Allison of BC, which held the right to distribute Perkins parts but had shrugged its responsibilities. When I called Detroit-Diesel Allison about parts to the first time, I recall being met with very obvious indifference to my need by a company which evidently did not depend on the yachtsman for its bread on butter, but rather the larger industrial users. Perkins has reputedly taken steps to improve the situation, but I am understandably shy of the product.  Asking around at the local docks about the type of engine that interests you will very quickly reveal the type that has the best quality and best service record, usually.  Isuzu has a long tradition on this coast, both among pleasure boaters and fishermen.  One shop in my area, Klassen Diesel, rebuilds them and sells them for a reasonable price (last time I checked).  The parts network would extend up and down the coast, anywhere fishboats are found, and this is a comforting thought.  I am guessing that worldwide parts availability is pretty good too, even in third world countries.  Checking on the yachting forums by asking about this would be a surefire way of knowing.  One origamiboat builder/owner installed one of Isuzu's new low-profile engines which fits perfectly just behind the companionway stairs where room is limited due to the rise of the hull toward the transom.  Some thoughts, in any case.  Alex Christie  (moderator)    ----- Original Message ----- From: carlmbentley <carlmbentley@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] engines   > with winter here i'm hoping more of you are reading the board, actually i hope you are all in the islands but . . . since i'm not, i have a question or two. > > first: is there one (or three) brand of engine that everyone agrees is the best. well actually i'm just interested to see what some of you think in general, be it price v/s performance, lifespans, ease of maintance, or lack of part availability etc etc for different inboard diesel options. > > this seems to be the one of the expenses that can't really be avoided (aside from not having one) can't make your own, can go used i suppose, or improvise . . . > > let's say you have to buy one though - comments ? > > that's it, i'll hold off on the rest of my questions till after i read brents book, sorry if he covers this one already > > -carl > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
534|531|2002-01-24 20:07:09|Michael Casling|Re: engines|Carl asked about engines: I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would  find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling   Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15   caslingm@...   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
535|531|2002-01-24 21:15:47|Douglas Pollard|Re: engines|Michael,    I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be.      This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can be bought any smaller or not.                                                       Doug Pollard                                                                                                                                                     ----- Original Message -----    From: Michael Casling    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:04 PM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines     Carl asked about engines:   I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would  find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling   Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15   caslingm@...     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
536|531|2002-01-24 23:48:53|Joe Casey|Re: engines|Hi Douglas,  Thank you for the informative post. Would you follow up with the model number and year of the basic engine and can you recall how you contacted the part of GM that deals in Isuzu engines and could answer your questions about it?  Regards, Joe    ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines   > Michael, >    I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be. >     This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can be bought any smaller or not. >                                                       Doug Pollard > ----- Original Message ----- >   From: Michael Casling >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:04 PM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines > > >   Carl asked about engines: >   I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would  find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling   Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15 caslingm@... > > >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
537|537|2002-01-25 00:02:44|Alex & Kim Christie|Isuzu engines  - rebore or resleeve?|Group,  I'll do my part by calling the local Isuzu people and asking about the whole rebore\resleeve issue, as they do rebuilds regularly.  I guess the main question would be, are these rebores or a rebore with a sleeve?  I think the price on their 36 hp was about 5000 Cdn, but that was about 5  years ago. If that is still the case, it is a very good deal.  I'll let you know!  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
538|531|2002-01-25 09:45:56|Douglas Pollard|Re: engines|Hi Joe,     I did not put sleeves in my engine as I found out to late, but I will, if I rebuild again.      I was told about by the owner of M&S Engine or automotive [not to be confused with M&S Precision] who bored my engine. I called a number given to me by him and reached engineering at GM.      The sleeves are not manufactured for that engine, but are for a GM engine I think.  They are the right size to be used in the Izuzu engine. I do remember but the sleeves probably have to be bored after installation to fit the pistons? The engineer talked like just about any angina could be bored and sleeved at least that's the impression I got.       My engine information is store in a storage unit as I am rebuilding my boat so numbers and such are not readily available at the moment. I think my engine is a model 3ab1 and was built about 1974. My engine was not built as a marine engine but was marinized by the boat manufacturer. I don't think Izuzu had entered the marine engine field at that time at least not with this particular model. I was told that the smaller engines they now sell are this same engine block. From the looks of several engines I have seen, I think all the more recent engines are the same block with anywhere from 2 to 6 cylinders.This may not be so.     Izuzu sells a very good rebuild book that I'd buy even if I did not intend to rebuild any time soon. It is a real help in working on and understanding the  engine.     I also rebuilt the marine clutch. I bought a book from the manufacturer and a set of new clutch disks along with gaskets and seals.  Getting the clutch disks in properly is a little tricky but  other than that those things are very simple. They are certainly not some mysterious piece of machinery that the marine drive mechanics would have you believe. One of them told me I would never get it back together.      It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of your engine and boat                                         Hope this helps,                                                     Doug.          ----- Original Message -----    From: Joe Casey    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:57 PM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines     Hi Douglas,    Thank you for the informative post. Would you follow up with the model   number and year of the basic engine and can you recall how you contacted the   part of GM that deals in Isuzu engines and could answer your questions about   it?    Regards,   Joe     ----- Original Message -----   From: Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...>   To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 5:54 PM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines     > Michael,   >    I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I   was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from   Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine   is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to   General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves   the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away   engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted   for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel   pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be.   >     This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can   be bought any smaller or not.   >                                                       Doug Pollard   > ----- Original Message -----   >   From: Michael Casling   >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   >   Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:04 PM   >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines   >   >   >   Carl asked about engines:   >   I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a   smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would  find out if   the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the   Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of   rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and   alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the   Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat   exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think   real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and   smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as   my truck I would get one. Michael Casling   Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15   caslingm@...   >   >   >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   >   >   >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.   >   >   >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   >   >   >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/   >   >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
539|539|2002-01-25 11:40:53|Alex & Kim Christie|isuzu and sabb engines|>     It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of  your engine and boat  >                                         Hope this helps, >                                                     Doug.   Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of these boats.  The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising experience (and the continuation of the cruising experience).  I have never read a cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every chapter!  A friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very reason. Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine.  Too bad they no longer make that size.  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
540|540|2002-01-25 16:06:44|nubiwan4thsig|How much steel plate required|Does anyone have an idea how much sheet steel is required to make a  31 ft and 36 ft sailboat hull?  I would like to get a cost estimate  so I can determine the largest size boat I can afford.  Thanks Larry Doyle|
541|541|2002-01-25 16:58:00|nubiwan4thsig|How much steel?|can someone list the amount of steel to make a 31' and 36' hull.  I  would like to get an estimate to detirmine which is the longest I can  afford.  Larry Doyle|
542|539|2002-01-25 17:16:00|Douglas Pollard|Re: isuzu and sabb engines|Alex,      Tom Colvin has always recommended the Saab engine for that reason at least when he recommends an engine at all. I think he only has one to appease his wife. I heard him tell a fellow that was going to take his off shore fisherman to Bermuda one time that he was either the bravest or the dumbest guy in the world to go all that far without even a single sail. I kind of feel the same way about the fellow who doesn't know how to fix his boat and goes off wondering around in an ocean.      To not be able to fix things while cruising is the fastest way for a guy to loose his wife's confidence. He may find himself standing on a tarmac somewhere watching his wife catch a plane back home.      I think she is absolutely right to do that too. After all he has not properly prepared himself  for the task they face.     I have advised several people who were looking for boats to go off cruising in. These people seemed to have little or no mechanical know-how.  I tried to get them to see that the preparation is a big part of the fun. These would be cruisers are probably three to five years from  taking off on their adventure so I talked them into taking classes in Engine repair, a little woodworking and some kind of electrical classes.  I see these skills as nearly as important to the  ultimate success of their adventure as is learning to sail and navigate.                                                           Just my opinion,                                                             Doug      ----- Original Message -----    From: Alex & Kim Christie    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:44 AM   Subject: [origamiboats] isuzu and sabb engines      >     It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of   your engine and boat   >                                         Hope this helps,   >                                                     Doug.    Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of these   boats.  The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising experience   (and the continuation of the cruising experience).  I have never read a   cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every chapter!  A   friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very reason.   Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small   selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine.  Too bad they   no longer make that size.    Alex Christie    (moderator)           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    ------------------------------------------------------------------------                    To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
543|541|2002-01-25 17:16:48|lars_doyle|How much steel?|can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and 36'  sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can  afford.  Larry Doyle|
544|526|2002-01-25 18:03:23|mat_man22|Re: origami cat|Gary  This may be the conoe you are thinking about:  Swamp Yankee Boats canoe  http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm  Mat|
545|539|2002-01-25 18:22:05|ravensoars2001|Re: isuzu and sabb engines|All this engine talk reminds me of the need to make a decision on a  source of power.  I have been looking at Kubota engines recently.  We  just replaced one that had been running "at camp" as a gen' set for  over 20 years without a rebuild.  The engine still runs well--the  model is a 1902 and we replaced it with a 1903.  They come in 37hp  and 42hp etc. and are designed for use with a keel cooler rather than  raw water.  As a small four cylinder they tend to run quite smoothly  and don't seem to leak.  Brent's suggestion of forced air in--forced  air out engine compartments should work well with an engine like  this.  I can procrastinate a little longer since i have more lead to  scrounge for the ballast.  One day power may turn out to be an  inboard diesel . . . rt, building Swain 36  --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  >  > >     It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every   piece of  > your engine and boat > >                                         Hope this helps, > >                                                     Doug. >  > Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of   these  > boats.  The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising   experience  > (and the continuation of the cruising experience).  I have never   read a  > cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every   chapter!  A  > friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very   reason.  > Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small > selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine.  Too   bad they  > no longer make that size. >  > Alex Christie >  > (moderator) |
546|526|2002-01-25 19:52:18|mat_man22|Re: origami cat|Stephen   Thanks very much.  This link goes into more detail and has some pictures.  http://www.amya.org/multihull/multi0009nl.pdf   Mat|
547|526|2002-01-25 21:09:54|Gary Lepak|Re: origami cat|----- Original Message -----  From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat   > Gary >  > This may be the conoe you are thinking about: >  > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe >  > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm >  > Mat>   Yup, that's the one.  Thanks. Gary |
548|548|2002-01-26 00:11:47|alex_christie|aluminum origami dinghy|Dear Group,  I've posted two photos into the photos section of the aforementioned  origami dinghy I spotted on Gabriola Island, BC. The designer of this  particular boat is unknown.  Alex|
549|526|2002-01-26 02:00:23|alex_christie|Re: origami cat|James,  I think doing an origami cat is certainly possible.  If you've  already built the model hull shown in the files section then you  understand the process intuitively, and can start playing around with  card paper until you get the long slim hulls that cats ask for. Just  stretch the lines, essentially, until you get the shape you want, and  the card paper will tell you quite quickly what can and cannot be  done with sheet material (essentially a very cheap 3-d plate  modelling program!). I don't think the shape would be limited to  types personified by plywood sheet construction entirely, as the  aluminum can be "convinced" to take some curves that ply might not  want to. In this way you can get a fairly curvy hull. Brent's system  can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could  probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern  with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make  the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much  double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing).  Its an  intriguing idea.   Take a peak at Tony Bigras' site  http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/o7.htx  on his 50 foot aluminum  cat. I think it was built conventionally, but well worth a look, and  you could alway try and email him for ideas.    I saw a dinghy on the same island that Tony lives on (Gabriola) and  was delighted to find it built origami-style, though different than  Brent's system.  I am not sure if it was Tony's or not.  This dinghy  is quite large and deep with unusual seams which led me to suspect  that whoever built it made very good use of the aluminum sheets.  I  have a photo somewhere in my hard drive which I'll dig up and post  for the group. It may yield some ideas for your project, and it shows  that there is more than one way to skin an origami cat.  Alex Christie   (moderator)   --- In origamiboats@y..., "lonedamnwolf1" <lonedamnwolf1@y...> wrote: > Hello Everybody, >  >     Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of  > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so  > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design  > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I  missing  > something that makes this impossible? >  > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. >  >                                                      Thanks, >                                                      James Floyd |
550|541|2002-01-26 04:09:37|alex_christie|Re: How much steel?|I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this  spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any  help.  Alex   In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:  > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and   36'   > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can  > afford. >  > Larry Doyle |
551|551|2002-01-26 04:16:37|alex_christie|aluminum origami skiff|For your interest I've now posted those two photos I mentioned  earlier of the aluminum origami skiff from Gabriola Island. The have  been posted under the name, "aluminum origami skiff". Next time I am  to that island I am going to try to track down the owner and ask him  about the design's origins.  Alex|
552|526|2002-01-26 08:17:33|james floyd|Re: origami cat|Alex,  Thank you for the encouraging words. So, you just manipulate the 'T' -shaped notch in the plate? Is there a mathematical formula for its placement? Brent Swain's book has not arrived yet.  Let's say I get the two hulls built, Wharram-style, with an open bridgedeck; what determines where you place the mast? Any other books you recommend for me?  I have seen and corresponded with Tony Bigras. He turned me on to this group! The boat I want to build will be in the 40 foot range. His was 50 and it took about 2500 hours. The origami sure would take a lot less time.                                    Thanks,                                   James   --- alex_christie <origamiboats@...> wrote:  > James, >  > I think doing an origami cat is certainly possible.  > If you've  > already built the model hull shown in the files > section then you  > understand the process intuitively, and can start > playing around with  > card paper until you get the long slim hulls that > cats ask for. Just  > stretch the lines, essentially, until you get the > shape you want, and  > the card paper will tell you quite quickly what can > and cannot be  > done with sheet material (essentially a very cheap > 3-d plate  > modelling program!). I don't think the shape would > be limited to  > types personified by plywood sheet construction > entirely, as the  > aluminum can be "convinced" to take some curves that > ply might not  > want to. In this way you can get a fairly curvy > hull. Brent's system  > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very > strong, and could  > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form > toward the stern  > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely > you could make  > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I > think) very much  > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm > guessing).  Its an  > intriguing idea.  >  > Take a peak at Tony Bigras' site  > http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/o7.htx  on his > 50 foot aluminum  > cat. I think it was built conventionally, but well > worth a look, and  > you could alway try and email him for ideas.   >  > I saw a dinghy on the same island that Tony lives on > (Gabriola) and  > was delighted to find it built origami-style, though > different than  > Brent's system.  I am not sure if it was Tony's or > not.  This dinghy  > is quite large and deep with unusual seams which led > me to suspect  > that whoever built it made very good use of the > aluminum sheets.  I  > have a photo somewhere in my hard drive which I'll > dig up and post  > for the group. It may yield some ideas for your > project, and it shows  > that there is more than one way to skin an origami > cat. >  > Alex Christie >   > (moderator) >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "lonedamnwolf1" > <lonedamnwolf1@y...> wrote: > > Hello Everybody, > >  > >     Has anyone ever tried to build an origami > sailing cat out of  > > aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal > method. It is so  > > simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. > What cat design  > > would be appropriate? I like the theory behind > Wharrams. Am I  > missing  > > something that makes this impossible? > >  > > Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. > >  > >                                                    >   Thanks, > >                                                    >   James Floyd >  >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!  http://auctions.yahoo.com|
553|553|2002-01-26 10:57:28|Gary Lepak|Re: origami cat-Wharram|----- Original Message ----- From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@...> . Brent's system  > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing).  Its an > intriguing idea.  I built a 46' Wharram in the 70's and sailed it from Seattle to the Queen Charlottes, down to San Francisco off shore non-stop from Queen Charlotte City, eventually to San Diego, and then to Hawaii, over 4 1/2 years.  I would not use the Wharram hull form.  In inland sailing they pitch a lot to windward because there is no bearing in the stern. This detracts from their already poor windward ability (no boards).      Surfing they are very hard to steer as the bows bury in the wave ahead and they want to broach.  .  They are also slow to start surfing as the stern buries in the approaching wave instead of lifting and starting the boat down the wave face.  After having the Wharram,  I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvedment in hull form.     A 40' origami aluminum cat sounds like a good idea.  I would try to approach a more rounded modern cat form and have dagger or center boards or mini keels.  Another drawback of the Wharram style is difficulty tacking because of the narrow deep hulls.  They turn like they are on railroad tracks and lose way too soon.  Fatter, roundbottomed hulls with boards will tack a lot easier.            The deep V also has a lot of wetted surface which will slow it down in light air.  Just a few thoughts from my exerience with a Wharram.  Gary Lepak Port Angeles, WA |
554|541|2002-01-26 11:48:57|jim_cl|Re: How much steel?|You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably  around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat.  Having a smaller  boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also  in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc.  Many a dream boat has  not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80%  of the boat.  Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$.     --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer  this  > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any  > help. >  > Alex >  >  In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31'  and  > 36'  > > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I  can  > > afford. > >  > > Larry Doyle |
555|541|2002-01-26 13:03:21|Larry Doyle|Re: How much steel?|Alex,  Thanks for the reply.    Larry Doyle      ----- Original Message -----    From: alex_christie    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:09 AM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?     I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this    spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any    help.    Alex    In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:   > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' and    36'    > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I can    > afford.   >    > Larry Doyle           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
556|541|2002-01-26 13:08:09|Larry Doyle|Re: How much steel?|Jim,  Thanks for the reply.   In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat.  Depending on how much sweat equity you put in.  However, it's still a large chunk of change that has to be considered.  Larry Doyle    ----- Original Message -----    From: jim_cl    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:48 AM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?      You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably    around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat.  Having a smaller    boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also    in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc.  Many a dream boat has    not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80%    of the boat.  Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$.      --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote:   > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer    this    > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any    > help.   >    > Alex   >    >  In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:   > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31'    and    > 36'    > > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I    can    > > afford.   > >    > > Larry Doyle           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    ------------------------------------------------------------------------                    To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
557|553|2002-01-26 13:27:23|johm gorham|Re: origami cat-Wharram|Hello,Iam on an atkins 36 foot steel cutter.I was hit at anchor in Richardson Bay by a Japanese fishing vessel going to sea.The owner Mr. Onishi wandered off the channel.He was traveling about fifiteen to twenty knots.The vessel smacked my stern doing considerable damage to the transom,bulwark,self steering device,was damaged but new parts brought it back into action.The reason for steel really came home.Any other vessel would be at the bottom of the bay.Aftr,using a torch and heating the area,a large cheater attached by heavy duty monster c clamps,fianlly in less than 8 hours got it pretty much back to normal.A wooden vessel would of been a total loss.The fiberglass vessel would of split in two pieces.Insurance money thank God came through,after three month of promises.When will  these coperations go through the pain they cause.I appreciate if you all will never forget why we build our ships of steel..John Gorham Sailing Vessel Rose.Please forward   Gary Lepak <gnjlepak@...> wrote:   ----- Original Message ----- From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@...> . Brent's system  > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing).  Its an > intriguing idea.  I built a 46' Wharram in the 70's and sailed it from Seattle to the Queen Charlottes, down to San Francisco off shore non-stop from Queen Charlotte City, eventually to San Diego, and then to Hawaii, over 4 1/2 years.  I would not use the Wharram hull form.  In inland sailing they pitch a lot to windward because there is no bearing in the stern. This detracts from their already poor windward ability (no boards).      Surfing they are very hard to steer as the bows bury in the wave ahead and they want to broach.  .  They are also slow to start surfing as the stern buries in the approaching wave instead of lifting and starting the boat down the wave face.  After having the Wharram,  I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvedment in hull form.     A 40' origami aluminum cat sounds like a good idea.  I would try to approach a more rounded modern cat form and have dagger or center boards or mini keels.  Another drawback of the Wharram style is difficulty tacking because of the narrow deep hulls.  They turn like they are on railroad tracks and lose way too soon.  Fatter, roundbottomed hulls with boards will tack a lot easier.            The deep V also has a lot of wetted surface which will slow it down in light air.  Just a few thoughts from my exerience with a Wharram.  Gary Lepak Port Angeles, WA   Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions Great stuff seeking new owners! Bid now!  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
558|526|2002-01-26 13:30:31|Gary H. Lucas|Re: origami cat|Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections.  I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500.  I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct.  I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly.  Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be.  Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch.  I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point.  Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more.  I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try.  Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat.  I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: Gary Lepak    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat      ----- Original Message -----    From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...>   To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat     > Gary   >    > This may be the conoe you are thinking about:   >    > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe   >    > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html   > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm   >    > Mat>     Yup, that's the one.  Thanks.   Gary      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
559|541|2002-01-26 21:03:07|Stephen Wandling|Re: How much steel?|Larry,  It's my understanding that the steel for hull, deck and cabin for a 36' Swain hull will cost about CD$8,000 here in Canada.  I believe this is for wheel  abraded, zinc rich primed steel.  Stephen   Larry Doyle wrote:   >  Jim, > > Thanks for the reply. > In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that > the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat. > Depending on how much sweat equity you put in.  However, it's still a > large chunk of change that has to be considered. > > Larry Doyle >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: jim_cl >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:48 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? > > > >   You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably >   around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat.  Having a smaller > >   boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also > >   in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc.  Many a dream boat has >   not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% >   of the boat.  Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > >   > I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer >   this >   > spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any >   > help. >   > >   > Alex >   > >   >  In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: >   > > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31' >   and >   > 36' >   > > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I >   can >   > > afford. >   > > >   > > Larry Doyle > > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                                []     ----------------------------------------------------------   > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. |
560|560|2002-01-26 23:38:30|Michael Casling|Size|Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks   Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire     caslingm@...   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
561|526|2002-01-27 02:37:56|mat_man22|Re: origami cat|Gary Lucas  Wow, thanks for your post. You have done a lot things I have been  thinking of.  Wouldn't Swamp Yankee Boats canoe be allot closer to a cat than one  of Brents designs? (and a lot cheaper at $15)  http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm  I read that the Rhino demo would last longer if you didn't shut it or  your computer down.  Also found a user group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/  From this group I learned that a full powered legal copy could be  obtained cheaper by transfering a student version. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/message/112  Thanks Mat|
562|562|2002-01-27 03:44:25|Alex & Kim Christie|40 steel approx. steel costs and other considerations|I am still waiting for my steel quote for the 40, but I am guessing that the steel, wheel abraded and primed, will come in at about $11,000 Cdn.  The advantage of zinc-rich pre-primed steel is that it avoids one expensive and troublesome step normally associated with steel boatbuilding: there is no need to sand-blast this steel before painting.  It has all been done for you before you put the boat together. There are minimal weld seams on the origami boat, and you just grind and prime these spots by hand before painting. It avoids the "rusted hulk" look that many steel boat projects take on, and is probably a major factor in keeping the local complaints to a minimum when a 36 foot sailboat hull suddenly sprouts next to your urban house (see "Austin Hull" in the photo files section for an example of this).  A few boats have been launched only dressed in primer, then painted later successfully.  It may sound heretical to do this to some, but it is a nice option to have in your back pocket should, say, you rented building site no longer offer secure tenure (it seems the destiny of many rental situations to sour in time).  This type of thing appeals to the "survivalist" in me, in that, rather than locking me into one pattern of action, I am offered options along the way. This is the essence of the unconventional boatbuilding method that Brent has developed, and along with that comes a survivalist or do-it-yourself philosphy as a logical extension of the practice.  Call it "The Spiritual Side of Origami boatbuilding" if you will. It is not for every body, and for those that can afford to just go out and buy what they want without concern for cost, there are some great yachtbuilders I know of that can build a beautiful steel boat for the right price.  Try www.kristenyachts.com in Sydney, BC, or www.waterlineyachts.com for examples of some nice boats for people with deep pockets. I really like metal boatbuilder Topper Hermansen's work at www.thboats.com , and just go and read his inspiring treatise on steel and aluminum for boatbuilding at http://www.thboats.com/pages/advmetal.html.  His advice on how to analzye a design objectively for your needs is great.  I am going to list some of the options available to the origami boatbuilder that may not be available to those taking the conventional approach (although they could adapt some things):  Mast: Buy new, or build yourself with Brent's instructions.  Interior: Finish meticulously to high standards, or foam it, put in a plywood bunk, basic galley, bucket for a head,  and  go     cruising  now (finish as you go).  One person Brent know of has done this and is off bluewater sailing, solo (okay, it might make it a little hard to attract your wife to go along!), but he is doing it, which is what counts in the end.  Exterior: Finish all coats or grind and prime weld seams and launch vessel early to escape impending military coup               (I'm half-joking, but this could be the case for someone somwhere in the world...)  Engine: Install engine you want, or just install engine bed for desired engine for a future date and sail away with a good high-            thrust outboard from Yamaha or Honda.  I am sure there are other options my tired brain can't think of right now, but you get my drift.  The point is to go now, go safely, but go and stop dithering.  Dithering is another pursuit with its own joys, and I won't outright criticize it, having done my share of dithering!  Alex   > Larry, > > It's my understanding that the steel for hull, deck and cabin for a 36' > Swain hull will cost about CD$8,000 here in Canada.  I believe this is > for wheel  abraded, zinc rich primed steel. > > Stephen > |
563|563|2002-01-27 04:55:44|Alex & Kim Christie|40 footer -- reasons for choice|----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling <caslingm@...> To: Alex Christie <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 8:36 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Size   > Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would >like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, >and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks   Michael >Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire     caslingm@...  Michael, the question of choice between sizes is very much in my mind lately, so good that you should ask.  I have done a lot of soul-searching and deep thought over taking on the 40 footer project versus the 36, and it was only very recently that I really made the choice between the two.  Brent has always advised building the smallest boat that can fulfill your needs, and wisely pointed to the fact that our kids won't be sticking around with us on our boat forever.  Therefore the 36 would be perfect for a couple, or a couple cruising locally upcoast with 2 kids. I have visited two different couples on their 36 footers, and I have to say their choice of hull size is a "match made in heaven".  Just big enough for very comfortable world cruising or living aboard, low-strain rig, fast enough, easy to handle in tight quarters around docks and in canals, and economic in a slip. Maintenance-wise it is not a freakish amount of hull skin to bottom paint (apologies to Steve Dashew, but could you imagine doing one of his 60 footers in a casual afternoon?).  Keeping your boat in shape should not be a nightmare, it should be a reasonable and pleasant pursuit.  Basically the 36 is big enough when you need it big, and small enough when you need it small.  The 36 is what I'd call the quintessential all-around "suv" of the Swain boats, and must be the most popular by far of his designs.  I think it is the biggest boat you can build easily without special plate handling equipment. For example each half shell of the hull (see photos) before being zipped to the other half can be rocked back and forth with one person on either end and thus "walked" into position.  No tractor, crane or forklift is needed to build that boat.  For local cruising on the BC coast, I am sure the 36 would be fine for my family of two adults and two kids (maybe the two 60 lbs dogs would have to stay ashore).  If it was just my wife and I living aboard, then the 36 would be for us, most definitely.  If I were a single gent I'd be building the 31 or 36.  The only reason I have chosen to build the 40 is that we plan on living aboard full time with our kid and dog collection (I haven't actually told the dogs about their impending lifestyle change, but they seem to be only interested in much sleeping interspersed with frenzied running on a beach, so should adapt quite well).  We simply need the space if we want the lifestyle to be sustainable (key word), and the 40 is one big boat compared to the 36, since it is more than length that is different.  I'd like our two girls to feel "at home" with some space of their own (within the constraints of the boat size, of course -- they won't get "princess rooms" with their own phones, stereo and colour tv!), and to not feel like they are always under the parental gaze.  And we in turn will desire some privacy (ah blessed aft cabin calling my name...).  I never thought about speed, funny that, but I suppose it might be a bit faster than the 36.  Building the boat will be a little more challenging, but not impossible. Whereas the deckplates of the 36 can be installed by two people manually, the 40 will need some assistance from an overhead winch/cable arrangement which I'll rig up using some of our big douglas fir trees.  A friend does the same thing at his log home building business, and slings huge beams with it.  I'll copy that one.  The 40 will take more lead to ballast, more time to fit out the interior, and a slightly bigger engine I suppose, plus a larger mast and sail arrangement.  Being that it'll be our home, I hold no grudge at the extra time required by the bigger size in all the aspects. If this were to be a weekend cruiser or two person bluewater boat, I would question my sanity directly and go build the 36, no doubts there, but other might think differently.  40 seems to be this magic number that defines the idea of "bluewater" boat these days, and there is one yacht rally I dimly recall where they limited the entrants to those with 40 footers and up. This was a bit arbitrary since displacement values could really change the nature of any of those boats in terms of speed and carrying capacity, but they felt they had to draw a line somewhere.  I don't think the 40 will be much more costly to build, other than a little more plate to purchase at the outset.  Brent pointed out all the detailing will be pretty much the same as on the 36, and an engine is needed for any size boats as well as any electronics or other doo-dads you'd have on a boat.  To answer your last question about engine placement: the engine I saw freshly installed on a 36 was located under the cockpit floor at its forward end, and it fit very nicely.  It was the low profile Isuzu, so this likely helped in keeping its position right behind the companionway steps. Might be different with a very large, tall engine. The engine on our 40 will likely be under the centre cockpit floor because we'll be building an aft cabin version, and should have its own "engine room" like a Whitby 42 by Brewer, or at least easily removed side-acccess panels.  As to comfort at sea, both the 36 and 40 are moderate displacement boats and I think would fare comparably in rough sea conditions. Only a test offshore will really tell, of course, so I'll let you know!  Alex Christie |
564|541|2002-01-27 05:04:48|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: How much steel?|Jim has a good point about keeping it simple.  The only thing I'd add is that with what I've seen in Brent's book, you can make alot of the things you'd normally buy, so building them for a larger is not a problem.  Even with the larger sails and winches, you can do very well if you are a good scrounger and keep your eyes peeled for good quality used items.  If you want to buy off the shelf, then sticking with the smallest boat which suits your needs is the quickest way to get afloat and start having fun.  Keeping it small and simple is definitely Brent's way, even if the odd duck who builds one of his boats is bent on complicating things!  But customization to your own tastes is also what these boats can be as well.  Each boat I've seen really reflects the personality of the owners.  Alex Christie   ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Doyle <ldoyle@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?   > Jim, > > Thanks for the reply. > In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat.  Depending on how much sweat equity you put in.  However, it's still a large chunk of change that has to be considered. > > Larry Doyle >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: jim_cl >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:48 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? >   You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably >   around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat.  Having a smaller >   boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also >   in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc.  Many a dream boat has >   not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% >   of the boat.  Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. > > |
565|560|2002-01-27 09:52:45|Larry Doyle|Re: Size|Michael,  Just a note on the speed difference between a 36 and a 40.  The calculation for theoretical speed of a displacement boat is 1.34 * sqr(LWL).  So, a 36's calculated speed would be 1.34 * sqr(29)= 7.2 knots and a 40's would be, and I guessed at the 40's LWL because I don't have it, 1.34 * sqr(35) = 7.9 knots. Of course, this assumes the boat has enough propulsion energy to drive it that fast.  Larry Doyle    ----- Original Message -----    From: Michael Casling    To: Alex Christie    Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:36 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Size     Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks   Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire     caslingm@...     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
566|553|2002-01-27 12:14:39|mat_man22|Re: origami cat-Wharram|Hi Gary   Wow, I am very impressed.  Would you consider selling a set of plans?  Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up to make a 24' cruising cat?  The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1'  These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html  I think it would have to make it out of (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be  cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with  epoxy.  3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm  The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") I don't know if might have caused some of his problems.  I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type  plans. I think I could match the rocker.  (Hope they would be of scale?)  Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this.  Mat|
567|553|2002-01-27 14:19:10|Gary Lepak|Re: origami cat-Wharram|Hi Mat,  ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...>  > Hi Gary > > Wow, I am very impressed.  Would you consider selling a set of plans? Not sure what you are referring to here.  Plans for what boat?  > Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up > to make a 24' cruising cat?  The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' No, I don't think it would be a very good cat hull. Not enough rocker for easy turning, and the identical ends are likely to allow pitching. The waterline beam would be wide for a cat too.   Better to have a fuller stern than bow.  It might make a good proa hull though as proas don't need to tack so the lack of rocker and quickturning ability doesn't matter.  > I think it would have to make it out of > (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX > pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be > cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with > epoxy. I think 1/4" for a 24' cat would be ok, and save some weight which is important in a cat.  > The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html > He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") > I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. The deep V of the Swamp Yankee is the problem.  I could tell by looking at the pictures that it would be very tender.  I personally think it is a dangerous boat for anyone not prepared to go for a swim.  I think it would make a great litlle outrigger canoe, though, with an outrigger on just one side, Polynesian style.  Nothing un-macho about that. As far as the construction technique goes, I don't see it saves any labor for this shape and size and material, over using 4 separate pieces of ply. Then the shape could be varied more to suit the design needs, like having a transom.  Personally, for a 24' low budget easy to build cat I would use simple flat-bottomed dory-shaped hulls as used here http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html  Also, Bill Kristofferson has a flatbottomed 24' cat, with or without a centerdeck cabin. http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm  If you want a more tortured ply cat hull, you might try Kurt Hughes cylinder mold technique http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ for rounded bottomed hulls.  Another speedbuilding round bottomed cat hull technique in foam sandwich is Derek Kelsall's KSS (Kelsall Swift Sandwich)  http://www.kelsall.com/  I would start with a design concept (24' catamaran) and then look at what designs and building techniques are out there, rather than trying to make the design fit  a certain building techique.  I think Origami is great for large metal monohulls, with a lot of curvature but long slender multihulls have other needs and possibilities.  You might want to try posting your questions on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder mail list to get some input from other builders and wouldbe builders about different techniques.  My apologies to the metal boatbuilders for being so far off topic.  Gary Lepak |
568|568|2002-01-27 15:50:22|Gord Schnell|40' Brent Swain|This message was directed to Alex. I hope he won't mind if I add my thoughts. I am building a 40'. Owners of 36' boats who have toured the 40' are generally amazed at the extra space. Since she has not yet been to sea, I can't comment of the speed or sea-kindliness. The engine straddles the aft portion of the keel beneath the pilothouse floor. I have not seen a 36' with sufficient room under the floor to accommodate an engine.  Gord Schnell   Michael Casling wrote:      Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your   thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough   conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks   Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire       caslingm@...|
569|526|2002-01-27 16:54:17|Gary H. Lucas|Re: origami cat|Mat, I haven't heard of Swamp Yankee Boats so I don't understand your comparison.  The Rhino demo shuts down automatically after 24 hours, I tried that.  The real users group is at news.rhino3d.com and the support there is incredible, best of any software product I've ever used.  Most of us licensed users are running BETAs.  McNeel starts the beta process almost as soon as a new product is released for the next version.  We do this because our experience has been that a Rhino beta is more stable than most major releases from other companies, AND we get to use new features that save us time and money right away!  Rhino might look pricey compared to say a word processor.  Most people however compare it favorably to so called 'professional' software that typically costs at least 5 to 10 times as much.  They are also very fair, those of us that bought the 1.1 upgrade got Version 2 for free!  I find the best price I can but when it is good stuff I bite the bullet and go for it.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: mat_man22    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:37 AM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat      Gary Lucas    Wow, thanks for your post. You have done a lot things I have been    thinking of.    Wouldn't Swamp Yankee Boats canoe be allot closer to a cat than one    of Brents designs? (and a lot cheaper at $15)    http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html   http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm    I read that the Rhino demo would last longer if you didn't shut it or    your computer down.    Also found a user group at:   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/    From this group I learned that a full powered legal copy could be    obtained cheaper by transfering a student version.   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/message/112    Thanks   Mat       To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
570|553|2002-01-27 17:14:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: origami cat-Wharram|Hey, I'm not a boat designer I am a machine designer, big difference!  All I am doing is playing.  I took a look at the Swamp Yankee Canoe photos.  From my playing I would say Brent's method works best on long deep hulls with a narrow beam, like this canoe.  This shape would be quite easy to model in Rhino, especially because both ends are the same.  The lines of that canoe don't look particularly fair.  I think a few hours with Rhino and the designer could have gotten a better looking boat.  The canoe also illustrates one of the big advantages of metal.  The fastening system (welding) is inherently much easier to make smooth joints than all that putty nonsense.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: mat_man22    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 12:14 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram     Hi Gary     Wow, I am very impressed.  Would you consider selling a set of plans?    Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up   to make a 24' cruising cat?  The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1'    These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best:   http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html   http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html    I think it would have to make it out of   (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX   pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be    cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with    epoxy.    3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat.   http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm    The builder ranks this boat as very tender at:   http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html   He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8")   I don't know if might have caused some of his problems.    I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type    plans.   I think I could match the rocker.  (Hope they would be of scale?)    Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this.    Mat       To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
571|553|2002-01-28 03:09:36|mat_man22|Re: origami cat-Wharram|> I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with  > fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvement in   > hull form.   Gary   Wow, I am very impressed.  Would you consider selling a set of plans?  Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up to make a 24' cruising cat?  The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1'  These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best. http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html  I think it would have to make it out of (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX pine but would it be too thick?   3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm  The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") I don't know if might have caused his problems.  I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type  plans. I think I could match the rocker.  (Hope they would be of  scale?)  Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this.  Mat|
572|526|2002-01-28 11:57:28|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat|I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations showing how an origami boat might be developed at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db 5ba560 <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d b5ba560&threadid=248> &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's not a big deal).   A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/>    Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck!   Stephen Ditmore    -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:30 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat   Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections.  I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500.  I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct.  I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly.  Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be.  Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch.  I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point.  Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more.  I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try.  Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat.  I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: Gary Lepak    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat      ----- Original Message -----    From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...>   To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat     > Gary   >    > This may be the conoe you are thinking about:   >    > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe   >    > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html>    > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm>    >    > Mat>     Yup, that's the one.  Thanks.   Gary      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=371491714> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
573|553|2002-01-28 14:50:22|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat-Wharram|If you play with http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm <http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm>  you'll find that you want a much higher prismatic coefficient for a catamaran than for a canoe.   I've heard that the Woods designs are good performers.  Stephen Ditmore        -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@...] Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:21 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram    Hi Mat,  ----- Original Message ----- From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...>  > Hi Gary > > Wow, I am very impressed.  Would you consider selling a set of plans? Not sure what you are referring to here.  Plans for what boat?  > Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up > to make a 24' cruising cat?  The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' No, I don't think it would be a very good cat hull. Not enough rocker for easy turning, and the identical ends are likely to allow pitching. The waterline beam would be wide for a cat too.   Better to have a fuller stern than bow.  It might make a good proa hull though as proas don't need to tack so the lack of rocker and quickturning ability doesn't matter.  > I think it would have to make it out of > (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX > pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be > cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with > epoxy. I think 1/4" for a 24' cat would be ok, and save some weight which is important in a cat.  > The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html>  > He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") > I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. The deep V of the Swamp Yankee is the problem.  I could tell by looking at the pictures that it would be very tender.  I personally think it is a dangerous boat for anyone not prepared to go for a swim.  I think it would make a great litlle outrigger canoe, though, with an outrigger on just one side, Polynesian style.  Nothing un-macho about that. As far as the construction technique goes, I don't see it saves any labor for this shape and size and material, over using 4 separate pieces of ply. Then the shape could be varied more to suit the design needs, like having a transom.  Personally, for a 24' low budget easy to build cat I would use simple flat-bottomed dory-shaped hulls as used here http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html <http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html>   Also, Bill Kristofferson has a flatbottomed 24' cat, with or without a centerdeck cabin. http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm <http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm>   If you want a more tortured ply cat hull, you might try Kurt Hughes cylinder mold technique http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/>  for rounded bottomed hulls.  Another speedbuilding round bottomed cat hull technique in foam sandwich is Derek Kelsall's KSS (Kelsall Swift Sandwich)  http://www.kelsall.com/ <http://www.kelsall.com/>   I would start with a design concept (24' catamaran) and then look at what designs and building techniques are out there, rather than trying to make the design fit  a certain building techique.  I think Origami is great for large metal monohulls, with a lot of curvature but long slender multihulls have other needs and possibilities.  You might want to try posting your questions on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder mail list to get some input from other builders and wouldbe builders about different techniques.  My apologies to the metal boatbuilders for being so far off topic.  Gary Lepak    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=340069456> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
574|574|2002-01-28 20:43:16|lars_doyle|Specs for Swain's boats|Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's sailboats. Also, line drawings of the boats would be nice.  Larry Doyle|
575|553|2002-01-28 23:33:17|mat_man22|Re: origami cat-Wharram|Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the  time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the  proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a  lot more fun than making big mistakes.  Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my  posts for many hours.  Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had  in the past and find you ideas very enlighting.  If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with  the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on  BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20  years old.  http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html  Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this  concept into larger cruising designs.  Are there others?  I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but  doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/  Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm  Thanks  Mat|
576|574|2002-01-28 23:37:16|alex_christie|Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36)|--- In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:  > Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's   sailboats.   In answer to your request, I have cut and pasted Brent's response to  the same question from awhile back. I don't know the exact details of  the 27 or the 40, though, so perhaps Brent might fill these in. I  don't have lines drawings myself, but will look into this.  ---Alex  "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch  draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs  empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel  weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46  or 47 ft mast stepped on deck.  The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead  ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6  inch draft single long fin keel .  Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck .  Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin  cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the  bottom of the keel."|
577|574|2002-01-29 01:14:45|Larry Doyle|Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36)|Alex,  Thank's for the quick response.   I found the post you referenced several days ago.  However, it doesn't give all needed data. For instance here is the specs from an add for plans for a sailboat kit I found on the net:                L.O.D. 10.03 m 32'  11"        L.W.L. 8.13 m 26'    7"        BEAM 3.66 m 12'    0"        DRAFT 1.22 m 4'    0"        DISPLACEMENT 10,000 kg 22,000 lb        BALLAST 3,400 kg 7,500 lb        AUX PWR  20 - 33 hp       These specs were then followed with several line drawings showing the side, top and a sample interior layout.   Something like this would be very helpful in deciding which set of plans to purchase.    Larry Doyle       ----- Original Message -----    From: alex_christie    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:37 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36)     --- In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:   > Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's    sailboats.     In answer to your request, I have cut and pasted Brent's response to    the same question from awhile back. I don't know the exact details of    the 27 or the 40, though, so perhaps Brent might fill these in. I    don't have lines drawings myself, but will look into this.  ---Alex    "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch    draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs    empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel    weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46    or 47 ft mast stepped on deck.    The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead    ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6    inch draft single long fin keel .    Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck .    Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin    cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the    bottom of the keel."             Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
578|531|2002-01-29 04:53:18|Richard Payne|Re: engines|When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel )  I fitted a brand new Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy with the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described Volvo to me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about Yanmar. Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high revving motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a slightly larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is much better in every way. If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have seen VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. Regards, Richard.|
579|553|2002-01-29 08:12:02|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat-Wharram|For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/>  but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or calling him if you have too).   Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/>  could be adapted to multihulls.   And note, the people who used to build "FastWater" origami boats in B.C. have moved to Florida and are now building origami catamarans.  Their web site is http://www.sailtechdesign.com/ <http://www.sailtechdesign.com/>    Stephen Ditmore         -----Original Message----- From: mat_man22 [mailto:mat_man@...] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram   Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the  time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the  proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a  lot more fun than making big mistakes.  Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my  posts for many hours.  Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/>  I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had  in the past and find you ideas very enlighting.  If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with  the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on  BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20  years old.  http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html <http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html>   Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this  concept into larger cruising designs.  Are there others?  I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but  doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/ <http://dixdesign.com/>   Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm <http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm>   Thanks  Mat       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=104596530> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
580|553|2002-01-29 08:32:32|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat-Wharram|I think Malcolm Tennant at http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/ <http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/>  also offers tortured plywood designs.      -----Original Message----- From: Ditmore, Stephen  Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 8:11 AM To: 'origamiboats@yahoogroups.com' Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram   For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/>  but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or calling him if you have too).   Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/>  could be adapted to multihulls.   And note, the people who used to build "FastWater" origami boats in B.C. have moved to Florida and are now building origami catamarans.  Their web site is http://www.sailtechdesign.com/ <http://www.sailtechdesign.com/>    Stephen Ditmore         -----Original Message----- From: mat_man22 [mailto:mat_man@...] Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram   Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the  time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the  proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a  lot more fun than making big mistakes.  Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my  posts for many hours.  Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/>  I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had  in the past and find you ideas very enlighting.  If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with  the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on  BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20  years old.  http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html <http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html>   Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this  concept into larger cruising designs.  Are there others?  I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but  doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/ <http://dixdesign.com/>   Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm <http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm>   Thanks  Mat       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target= mm/g22lp.tmpl> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=104596530> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
581|581|2002-01-29 13:25:12|Gary Lepak|origami cat-cylinder mold|----- Original Message ----- From: "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@...>   > For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, > http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ <http://www.multihulldesigns.com/> > but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or > calling him if you have too). Basically, cylinder molding, CM, developed from tortured plywood to get a fuller hull shape with more displacement.  The idea is to make two hull halves on a curved mold where every frame is the same shape.  It is not exactly a cylinder, but more of a  "j" shape with the straight part becoming the topsides. The curved part is not quite as round as in the letter J.  The skin is made of 2 or 3 layers of 3 or 4 mm ply vacuum bagged together with epoxy.  The molds are set at nearly the same level.  The curve of the stem and rocker are cut out and then the two pieces are wired together along the keel and tortured into shape.  It is a bit tricky to get it symmetrical, as it always wants to pop to one side or another to relieve the stress.  I bought Kurt's video which shows the method in detail actually building a 40' tri.  Definitely watch the video before choosing this method. Check out this link of a 30' Kurt Hughes cat built this way http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jdory/boat.htm#Building  > Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at > http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ > <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> > could be adapted to multihulls. I couldn't find much detail of the exact method here, just the vague description of it with no pictues.  Is there more about it somewhere else? The hull shapes look nice, with flatter bottoms than what I've seen on other tortured kayak/canoe designs.  Thanks for the links, the Fastwater one is interesting too. Gary Lepak |
582|531|2002-01-29 15:46:42|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar,  Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu.  3:1 reduction makes sense  given the higher rpm.  Helpful comment:  thanks.  I have just found a  19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged.  The  prop came at the right price.  Just working on the math for  reduction.  rt           --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel )  I fitted a brand  new > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy  with > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described  Volvo to > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about  Yanmar. > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high  revving > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a  slightly > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is  much > better in every way. > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have  seen > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > Regards, Richard. |
583|531|2002-01-29 20:35:18|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: engines|Just a thought rt, but Dave Gerr's Propellor Handbook seems like the right source for tables you might need for working out the right reduction.  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines   > The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, > Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu.  3:1 reduction makes sense > given the higher rpm.  Helpful comment:  thanks.  I have just found a > 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged.  The > prop came at the right price.  Just working on the math for > reduction.  rt > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel )  I fitted a brand > new > > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I > > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy > with > > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer > > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described > Volvo to > > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about > Yanmar. > > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask > > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high > revving > > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I > > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a > slightly > > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is > much > > better in every way. > > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and > > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have > seen > > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > > Regards, Richard. > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
584|581|2002-01-30 12:51:30|pvanderwaart|Re: origami cat-cylinder mold|I sailed on a Hughes-designed, cylinder-molded cat that is a day- charter boat in Bermuda. It was very impressive.  The cylinder mold is supposed to be a simplification of the constant  camber system. This patented system was supposed to simplify the  construction of light weight boats through the purchase of laminated  panels made up on a torus-shaped form. Unfortunately, the premise  that the constant camber panels would be cheaply available from a  full-time panel-making enterprise was never realized.  Be that as it may, if you are interested in a home-built multihull,  the Jim Brown-John Marples designs are worth a look.  www.searunner.com.  As for oragami methods, I have not worked at it, but I am a little  dubious. Most multihull designers want a long waterline for speed,  but short overhangs to reduce pitching. This is hard to do in panel  material without cutting the panels.  Peter|
585|541|2002-01-30 15:35:54|brentswain38|Re: How much steel?|The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin,  wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows      Hull-   2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate    1-4x8 ft x 3/16th    Decks cabin etc   10- 4x8 x 1/8th    1-6x12x1/8th     Keel(s)   1-5x12x1/4    1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl   Twin Keels leading edges    2-3ft6"x2"shaft   Single    5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness )    Twin keel supports    4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle   Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths    Deck stiffners    10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar   16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe    12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe    4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe    Ballast 3500 lbs lead .    For the 36 it's as follows      2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate     1-4x8x3/16th plate    3-5x10x1/8th"    5 -4x8x1/8th" pl    1 -6x20x1/8th"    1-8x12x1/4 inch plate     10- 1" x1"x20ft angle      14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft     1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate     leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6  inces longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid  shaft leading edges of the twin keels .    Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe     16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe   12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe    4500 lbs of lead ballast    When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of  the clips .                                      Brent Swain      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: > Alex, >  > Thanks for the reply.   >  > Larry Doyle   >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: alex_christie  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:09 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? >  >  >   I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer  this  >   spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any  >   help. >  >   Alex >  >   In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote: >   > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31'  and  >   36'  >   > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I  can  >   > afford. >   >  >   > Larry Doyle >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >               ADVERTISEMENT >               >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
586|531|2002-01-30 19:38:06|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|Alex, thanks.  I loaned out one of my Gerr books out that has a  chapter on props--waiting for it to return.  In the mean-time--need  to trim this prop down as per the section on props in Brents book.   Will borrow a plazma to cut it down once the rest of the math comes  together.  rt    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  > Just a thought rt, but Dave Gerr's Propellor Handbook seems like   the right  > source for tables you might need for working out the right   reduction.  >  > Alex >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ravensoars2001 <rct_51@h...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines >  >  > > The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is   Yanmar,  > > Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu.  3:1 reduction makes   sense  > > given the higher rpm.  Helpful comment:  thanks.  I have just   found a  > > 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged.    The  > > prop came at the right price.  Just working on the math for > > reduction.  rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: > > > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel )  I fitted a   brand  > > new > > > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous   problems I  > > > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very   happy  > > with > > > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the   newer  > > > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. > > > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described > > Volvo to > > > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about > > Yanmar. > > > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to   ask  > > > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! > > > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high > > revving > > > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months   ago I  > > > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a > > slightly > > > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is > > much > > > better in every way. > > > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint   and  > > > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I   have  > > seen > > > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. > > > Regards, Richard. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  > > > > > > |
587|541|2002-01-30 20:37:58|Larry Doyle|Re: How much steel?|Brent,  Thanks for the list of steel needed for the 31 and 36.  It's exactly what I needed.  Larry Doyle    ----- Original Message -----    From: brentswain38    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:35 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?     The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin,    wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows       Hull-     2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate      1-4x8 ft x 3/16th      Decks cabin etc     10- 4x8 x 1/8th      1-6x12x1/8th       Keel(s)     1-5x12x1/4      1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl     Twin Keels leading edges      2-3ft6"x2"shaft     Single      5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness )      Twin keel supports      4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle     Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths      Deck stiffners      10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar    16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe      12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe      4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe      Ballast 3500 lbs lead .      For the 36 it's as follows        2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate       1-4x8x3/16th plate      3-5x10x1/8th"      5 -4x8x1/8th" pl      1 -6x20x1/8th"      1-8x12x1/4 inch plate       10- 1" x1"x20ft angle        14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft       1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate       leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6    inces longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid    shaft leading edges of the twin keels .      Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe       16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe    12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe      4500 lbs of lead ballast      When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of    the clips .                                        Brent Swain       --- In origamiboats@y..., "Larry Doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:   > Alex,   >    > Thanks for the reply.     >    > Larry Doyle     >   ----- Original Message -----    >   From: alex_christie    >   To: origamiboats@y...    >   Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 4:09 AM   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel?   >    >    >   I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer    this    >   spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any    >   help.   >    >   Alex   >    >   In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" <ldoyle@t...> wrote:   >   > can someone list the amount of steel necessary to build a 31'    and    >   36'    >   > sailboat.  I would like to get a quote see how large a boat I    can    >   > afford.   >   >    >   > Larry Doyle   >    >    >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    >               ADVERTISEMENT   >                 >           >           >    >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-   unsubscribe@y...    >    >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of    Service.    >    >    >    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
588|588|2002-01-30 22:38:56|aklove2u|main hatch dimensions|I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa.  and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the  size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats.  I am interested in  Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they or  a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and any  other info related to it.  such as wether it opens fully or is blocked  by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit  well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it  comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook.  If anyone  else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that  would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot  house please let me know.  You can post messages ant this site or send  to the address below.   Greg  WIJNANDA@...|
589|588|2002-01-31 01:53:02|alex_christie|Re: main hatch dimensions|Greg,  I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to  the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this  shows his hatch configuration.  It doesn't sound exactly like what  you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the hatch  door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one piece,  there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this would  be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent Hatch,  of course.  Alex   --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend,  Wa.  > and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the  > size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats.  I am interested  in  > Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they  or  > a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and  any  > other info related to it.  such as wether it opens fully or is  blocked  > by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit  > well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it  > comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook.  If anyone  > else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that  > would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot  > house please let me know.  You can post messages ant this site or  send  > to the address below. >  >  > Greg  > WIJNANDA@H... |
590|590|2002-01-31 08:34:17|Ditmore, Stephen|Scandinavian version of Origami?|Is this a Scandinavian version of Origami? http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html <http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html>  The software looks interesting, especially for Mac users.   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
591|581|2002-01-31 10:04:54|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat-cylinder mold|As applied to multihull construction I see it being analogous to sailmaking. Imagine you're going to scarf together 12 sheets of plywood along their long edges to form an 8' x 40' (allowing for the scarves) foot panel.  Before cutting the scarves you trim each long edge like a sailmaker trims panels of sailcloth, giving each long edge some curvature...   Stephen Ditmore      -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lepak [mailto:gnjlepak@...] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 1:27 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] origami cat-cylinder mold  I couldn't find much detail of the exact method here, just the vague description of it with no pictues.  Is there more about it somewhere else? The hull shapes look nice, with flatter bottoms than what I've seen on other tortured kayak/canoe designs.    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ditmore, Stephen" sditmore@... <mailto:sditmore@...>   > Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at > http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/>  > < http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ <http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/> > > could be adapted to multihulls.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
592|588|2002-01-31 14:06:36|evanmoonjunk|Re: main hatch dimensions|--- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote:  > Greg, >  > I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to  > the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this  > shows his hatch configuration.  It doesn't sound exactly like what  > you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the   hatch   > door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one   piece,   > there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this   would   > be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent   Hatch,   > of course. >  > Alex > Hi Gang, the hatch on Karls boat is a regular door with the part on   top that flips up and hinged forward like a cabin top hatch. He also  did not want the cupola, so the alternative was either a sliding   hatch or flip....Evan  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend,  > Wa.  > > and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate   the   > > size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats.  I am   interested   > in  > > Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if   they   > or  > > a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch   and   > any  > > other info related to it.  such as wether it opens fully or is  > blocked  > > by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it,   cockpit   > > well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find   it   > > comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook.  If   anyone   > > else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch   that   > > would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the   pilot   > > house please let me know.  You can post messages ant this site or  > send  > > to the address below. > >  > >  > > Greg  > > WIJNANDA@H... |
593|588|2002-01-31 15:01:57|carlmbentley|Re: main hatch dimensions|--- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote:  > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa.     your city caught my attention. ever heard of brion toss the rigger ? he's from port townsend i believe. if so what's your opinion, just curious.  -carl|
594|594|2002-01-31 20:07:50|lars_doyle|Swain boats on the East coast|Are there any Swain boats on the East coast?  Larry Doyle|
595|595|2002-01-31 20:25:35|cdbarry12|Anyone going to IBEX|I'll be at IBEX this year (www.ibexshow.com), especially session 505.  Say hi if you see me.|
596|596|2002-02-01 04:46:08|Richard Payne|Re: steel/aluminium composite.|Am playing with the idea of removing the steel deck and cabin from Nekeyah, raising the freeboard and building a flush deck and deckhouse from marine grade aluminum. Should result in a drier, lighter and roomier boat. I expect to provide a flange of stainless to bolt the aluminum deck to, and use appropriate insulation between the aluminum and the stainless. Have any of you had any experience with this form of composite construction? I would be interested in your comments. Regards, Richard.|
597|596|2002-02-01 08:20:03|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: steel/aluminium composite.|You should look into using a "detacouple" - a bar of aluminum and a bar of steel fused together using an explosive.  You can then weld to both sides. But I agree that it can also be done using an insulating material and mechanical fasteners, esp. if you also use 5200, Sikaflex, or similar.   Stephen Ditmore         -----Original Message----- From: Richard Payne [mailto:nekeyah@...] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:57 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite.    Am playing with the idea of removing the steel deck and cabin from Nekeyah, raising the freeboard and building a flush deck and deckhouse from marine grade aluminum. Should result in a drier, lighter and roomier boat. I expect to provide a flange of stainless to bolt the aluminum deck to, and use appropriate insulation between the aluminum and the stainless. Have any of you had any experience with this form of composite construction? I would be interested in your comments. Regards, Richard.     Yahoo! Groups Sponsor	  ADVERTISEMENT   <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=213858.1871318.3370210.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17051508 72:HM/A=763352/R=0/*http://www.classmates.com/index.tf?s=5085> 	   <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=213858.1871318.3370210.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=1705150872:HM/A=763352/rand=697713308> 	  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
598|531|2002-02-01 18:11:26|Gary H. Lucas|Re: engines|Practical Sailor just did an interesting article on diesel engines.  The point was made that Yanmars are kind of rough running, but they have a huge market share.  If they were major trouble the big boat builders would drop them like a hot potato.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: ravensoars2001    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:46 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines     The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar,    Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu.  3:1 reduction makes sense    given the higher rpm.  Helpful comment:  thanks.  I have just found a    19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged.  The    prop came at the right price.  Just working on the math for    reduction.  rt            --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote:   > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel )  I fitted a brand    new   > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I   > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy    with   > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer   > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again.   > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described    Volvo to   > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about    Yanmar.   > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask   > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two!   > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high    revving   > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I   > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a    slightly   > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is    much   > better in every way.   > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and   > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have    seen   > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also.   > Regards, Richard.      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
599|526|2002-02-01 18:16:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: origami cat|Stephen, I can't get your links to work.  Is the URL too long for the page causing the problem?  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: Ditmore, Stephen    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:51 AM   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat     I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some   experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations   showing how an origami boat might be developed at   http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db   5ba560   <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d   b5ba560&threadid=248> &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's   not a big deal).       A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting   is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/   <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/>        Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck!       Stephen Ditmore      -----Original Message-----   From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...]   Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:30 PM   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat     Gary,   I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's   design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is   comprised of all conical sections.  I then took this concept into Rhino, a   3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load   and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500.  I was able to   create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then   tape together to prove they were correct.  I did two hull sides, a transom,   and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly.  Trying to stretch the   Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a   really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just   a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure   how big it will be.  Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to   work out building a design of this type from scratch.  I suggest you   actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download   Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world   starting point.  Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate   some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull   volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available   free to get a whole lot more.  I would be happy to send anyone here one of   my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare   time) to try.  Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for,   before you try building a boat.  I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans   myself, just for the educational value.    Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----      From: Gary Lepak      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat        ----- Original Message -----      From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...>     To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>     Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat       > Gary     >      > This may be the conoe you are thinking about:     >      > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe     >      > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html   <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html>      > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm   <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm>      >      > Mat>       Yup, that's the one.  Thanks.     Gary        To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/   <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor     ADVERTISEMENT       <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupweb/S=17051508   72:HM/A=935585/R=0/*http://www.gotomypc.com/u/tr/yh/grp/300_1b/g22lp?Target=   mm/g22lp.tmpl>        <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=219350.1849047.3355885.1774053/D=egroupmai   l/S=1705150872:HM/A=935585/rand=371491714>     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!   <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
600|588|2002-02-02 03:24:03|Richard Payne|Re: main hatch dimensions|You can have both sliding and hinged hatch in one if you mount the pivots on dinghy mainsheet carriers on appropriate track attached to the cabin top. You just have to lift the hatch a little to clear the front lip before you slide it. The end of the hatch furthest from the pivot has nylon guides which once the hatch is lifted a little to allow travel, slide along the coaming so that the hatch  cannot twist sideways and jam on the tracks. The hatch has gaskets which seal with the coaming. I have used this with a hinged cabin door opening inwards but the gasketing of the door is not too good and it leaks if it cops green water. The door's top edge has holes which engage with pegs on the lip of the hatch, which automatically lock it shut when the door is closed. I welded the whole thing out of 6 mm alloy. After saying all this, I must admit that the only time I open the hatch is to get large items of gear in or out. Otherwise we all just duck on the way in or out ! Regards, Richard Payne, Nekeyah.|
601|531|2002-02-02 21:03:14|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|Will try to look up the article in Practical Sailor.  All reports in  this locale are that Yanmar is good.  rt   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > Practical Sailor just did an interesting article on diesel  engines.  The point was made that Yanmars are kind of rough running,  but they have a huge market share.  If they were major trouble the  big boat builders would drop them like a hot potato. >  > Gary H. Lucas >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: ravensoars2001  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:46 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines >  >  >   The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is  Yanmar,  >   Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu.  3:1 reduction makes  sense  >   given the higher rpm.  Helpful comment:  thanks.  I have just  found a  >   19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged.   The  >   prop came at the right price.  Just working on the math for  >   reduction.  rt        >  >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote: >   > When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel )  I fitted a  brand  >   new >   > Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous  problems I >   > removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very  happy  >   with >   > the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the  newer >   > Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. >   > Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described  >   Volvo to >   > me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about  >   Yanmar. >   > Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to  ask >   > around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! >   > One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high  >   revving >   > motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months  ago I >   > changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a  >   slightly >   > larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up  is  >   much >   > better in every way. >   > If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint  and >   > thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I  have  >   seen >   > VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. >   > Regards, Richard. >  >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  >  >  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
602|596|2002-02-03 04:08:32|Richard Payne|Re: steel/aluminium composite.|Have never heard of detacouples, will check it out. Thanks, Richard.|
603|526|2002-02-04 08:19:24|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cat|Sorry.   For my zip files go to http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/>  click on "Boatbuilding," then on "Origami Steel Yacht Construction."   For Baseline software go to www.basline.com <http://www.basline.com>   Stephen        -----Original Message----- From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...] Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 6:17 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat    Stephen, I can't get your links to work.  Is the URL too long for the page causing the problem?  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: Ditmore, Stephen    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:51 AM   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat     I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some   experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations   showing how an origami boat might be developed at   http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d b>    5ba560   < http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d <http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050d >    b5ba560&threadid=248> &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's   not a big deal).       A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting   is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/>    < http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ <http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/> >        Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck!       Stephen Ditmore      -----Original Message-----   From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...]   Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 1:30 PM   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat     Gary,   I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's   design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is   comprised of all conical sections.  I then took this concept into Rhino, a   3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load   and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500.  I was able to   create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then   tape together to prove they were correct.  I did two hull sides, a transom,   and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly.  Trying to stretch the   Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a   really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just   a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure   how big it will be.  Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to   work out building a design of this type from scratch.  I suggest you   actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download   Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world   starting point.  Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate   some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull   volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available   free to get a whole lot more.  I would be happy to send anyone here one of   my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare   time) to try.  Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for,   before you try building a boat.  I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans   myself, just for the educational value.    Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----      From: Gary Lepak      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 7:53 PM     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat        ----- Original Message -----      From: "mat_man22" <mat_man@...>     To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>     Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 3:03 PM     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat       > Gary     >      > This may be the conoe you are thinking about:     >      > Swamp Yankee Boats canoe     >      > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html>    < http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html <http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html> >      > http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm>    < http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm <http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm> >      >      > Mat>       Yup, that's the one.  Thanks.     Gary        To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>    < http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      Yahoo! 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604|604|2002-02-04 08:59:12|lonedamnwolf1|design for catamaran|Hello everybody,     I have really enjoyed the responses generated by my cat  question.One measure of wisdom is knowing when, figuratively, to call  a plumber! I think I need someone who can design the thing for me.  For money and fame. Do any of you have an interest in doing it? Or  can you recommend somebody? I can build it myself, but the design  part is more than I have time to conquer. I understand the concepts,  but the nitty is pretty gritty.  And CAD gives me migraines.                                             James Floyd|
605|605|2002-02-06 14:26:03|robert44654|improvements???|I like your concept of origami construction.  It is a real boon for  the amatuer builder.  Your hull underwater though is rather ugly,not  that it matters that much, however why haven't you tried to make  underwater slits vertical to fair up each half instead of a long  horizontal slit underwater?  you may have to make a few more welds  but the underwater profile could approximate a rounder hull. It also  may allow a lighter boat design, especially in alumimum.  also, do you have any experience with i beleive the product is  aluminite, a "welding compound" that must have a large percentage of  zinc in it (specific gravity is over 6 ).  I have seen it  demonstated at Farm Science review.  A hole in an aluminum can is  repaired with a propane torch.  Seems easy to use, even on light  guage alumimum, and they say in their brochure that it can be used  in boat fabrication.  can your design be used to fabicate a boat of aluminum with 1/2"  aluminum plate for the hull or is it to thick to work with?  I am interestd in seeing in person a boat built to your design.   Anyone who has one willing to show it?  Also of those who have a  boat of Brent's design how is the performance? How high can you  point, does it heel a lot? boat speed (especially in light air)?  Again Brent, we amatuer boat builders salute you for your efforts!|
606|605|2002-02-06 18:44:11|brentswain38|Re: improvements???|Vertical slits would be impossible to keep fair. I've seen it tried  and the result was an abortion with hard ridges at each seam, which  would greatly increase the drag of a boat if done underwater.   You can use the method as long as you continue the chines right to  the ends of the boat, avoid any twist in the plates , and give up the  conic ends.The French do this at Meta and call it the "Strongall  process"                                                                                    Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" <robert44654@y...> wrote: > I like your concept of origami construction.  It is a real boon for  > the amatuer builder.  Your hull underwater though is rather  ugly,not  > that it matters that much, however why haven't you tried to make  > underwater slits vertical to fair up each half instead of a long  > horizontal slit underwater?  you may have to make a few more welds  > but the underwater profile could approximate a rounder hull. It  also  > may allow a lighter boat design, especially in alumimum. >  > also, do you have any experience with i beleive the product is  > aluminite, a "welding compound" that must have a large percentage  of  > zinc in it (specific gravity is over 6 ).  I have seen it  > demonstated at Farm Science review.  A hole in an aluminum can is  > repaired with a propane torch.  Seems easy to use, even on light  > guage alumimum, and they say in their brochure that it can be used  > in boat fabrication. >  > can your design be used to fabicate a boat of aluminum with 1/2"  > aluminum plate for the hull or is it to thick to work with? >  > I am interestd in seeing in person a boat built to your design.   > Anyone who has one willing to show it?  Also of those who have a  > boat of Brent's design how is the performance? How high can you  > point, does it heel a lot? boat speed (especially in light air)? >  > Again Brent, we amatuer boat builders salute you for your efforts! |
607|588|2002-02-06 18:51:38|brentswain38|Re: main hatch dimensions|Moon Raven's wheelhouse measures 10 inches off the cabintop. Your  taller wheelhouse will give you a lot more room . Having 3 inches  more slope to the aft end of the wheelhouse will also make your hatch  a lot easier to get in and out of without the cupola .   Moon Raven's hatch opens almost the full 180 degrees .    You'll get used to almost anything ,over time.   Putting a lifting  or sliding hatch on top would be a mistake ,  destroying the basic simplicity and watertight integrity of a single  door.                                         Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > Greg, >  > I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to  > the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this  > shows his hatch configuration.  It doesn't sound exactly like what  > you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the  hatch  > door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one  piece,  > there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this  would  > be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent  Hatch,  > of course. >  > Alex >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote: > > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend,  > Wa.  > > and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate  the  > > size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats.  I am  interested  > in  > > Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if  they  > or  > > a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch  and  > any  > > other info related to it.  such as wether it opens fully or is  > blocked  > > by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it,  cockpit  > > well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find  it  > > comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook.  If  anyone  > > else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch  that  > > would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the  pilot  > > house please let me know.  You can post messages ant this site or  > send  > > to the address below. > >  > >  > > Greg  > > WIJNANDA@H... |
608|605|2002-02-07 09:16:50|robert anthony|Re: improvements???|brentswain38 <brentswain38@...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)  And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?       --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
609|605|2002-02-07 10:01:28|robert anthony|metal suppliers|robert anthony <robert44654@...> wrote:    I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area?   --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
610|605|2002-02-07 10:26:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: improvements???|Anthony, The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress.  If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use.  When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things!  Gary H. Lucas   ----- Original Message -----    From: robert anthony    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???         brentswain38 <brentswain38@...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)    And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?           ---------------------------------   Do You Yahoo!?   Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
611|605|2002-02-07 16:38:23|brentswain38|Re: improvements???|One of my 36 footers is being built in Nanaimo using 1/4 inch  aluminium.No problem.                                      Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >  >  >   brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the response!  Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design?  (If  you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it  really isn't an orgami boat.)  > And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can  you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees  Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum  welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with  each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate.   I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside  of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with  epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of  seawater.)  What do you think?  >   >  >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
612|605|2002-02-07 16:42:28|brentswain38|Re: metal suppliers|This has been a problem in  the US, but no problem in Canada. The  only place we have been able to find wheelabraded plate in the US so  far is Farwest Steel in Eugene Oregon. All I can suggest is get on  the phone and phone all the suppliers in your area. We have had to  use 8by20 plates sometimes, but it's tricky getting the midships seam  fair.  In the UK Pickels in Wales is the only source that I'm aware of.                                             Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >  >  >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:  >  >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding  suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc  coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
613|605|2002-02-07 16:43:47|Douglas Pollard|Re: improvements???|I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes.                                                                  Doug Pollard       ----- Original Message -----    From: Gary H. Lucas    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???     Anthony,   The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress.  If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use.  When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things!    Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----      From: robert anthony      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???           brentswain38 <brentswain38@...> wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)      And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?               ---------------------------------     Do You Yahoo!?     Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]        To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
614|605|2002-02-08 11:32:42|David Allen|Re: improvements???|a major problem with using aluminite is that the aluminum must be above the melting point of the rod.  for a soda can, that's not much of a problem. for 1/4" plate it's a major problem.  iron doesn't conduct heat very fast, which is why you can forge one end of a rod at red heat while holding the other bare handed.  aluminum though is an excellent conductor of heat.  you would need to heat the entire plate to nearly the melting point of the rod. getting that much metal that hot can cause a lot of problems.  da|
615|605|2002-02-08 18:53:41|ravensoars2001|Re: improve-advantage of origami|I am building as a hobby.  There are no pressing time lines and it is  fun to experiment.  Much of the joy comes from doing something with  my kids and finding out what they like to learn.  That said, when it  comes to stuff like welding the seams of the steel hull; I opt for  the the time proven fast freeze arc welding electrodes like 6010 (DC)  and 6011 (AC) for positional welding.  These proceedures keep all the  ferrys, barges and tug boats together that we depend on.  Innershield  has become accepted in shipyards now.  It is very fast and is  effective but difficult to justify the cost of the equipment for  building one boat.  Industry uses wire feed for aluminium  boats for  good reason:  it too is fast and effective.  Speed can reduce  distortion.  Not such a drawback for the origami builder.  Another  advantage of origami is that as you weld longditudanally you create  compound curves.  I have measured the effect on my 36' hull and find  it very pleasing.  The challenge of welding transverse frames is the  inevitable humps and hollows that form sooner or later.  Anyone who  has paddled a Coleman plastic canoe accross a lake will attest to the  extra effort it takes to propell a vesssel with hollows in the hull.   The drag is devastating when compared to a rigid well formed canoe  body.  It is still fun to experiment, albeit with the approach that  it is more fun when you can find out what works and do more of it. rt     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat  together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of  us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture  a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe  even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few  dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not  put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The  people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can  throw away their mistakes. >                                                                   Doug Pollard    >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Gary H. Lucas  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? >  >  >   Anthony, >   The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld  like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base metal is a source  of cracking under stress.  If you price the material I think you will  find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  The ADVANTAGE of  a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong  and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel  welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum structures are  best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use.  When you are  welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER  than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has  less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like sex, there is NO  substitute for skill when doing some things! >  >   Gary H. Lucas >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >     From: robert anthony  >     To: origamiboats@y...  >     Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM >     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? >  >  >  >  >       brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the  response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your  design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of  the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)  >     And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question  can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about  600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as  aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in  contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the  aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression  on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the  valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the  corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?  >       >  >  >  >     --------------------------------- >     Do You Yahoo!? >     Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >  >     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >  >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  >  >  >  >  >  >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
616|605|2002-02-09 17:55:19|brentswain38|Re: improvements???|To suggest that  over 100 very successful boats which have been  built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the  northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a  Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf ,  to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as  naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that  if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong .   If  none of us had been  prepared to improvise, we'd still be  living in caves .   Those  who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of  us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same  time  enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are  cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while  citicizing those very  efforts.    The French have been using origami style techniques to  commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late  70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be  naive enough to do it.   Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century  out of date needlesly  hangs a huge millstone around the necks of  cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages .                                             Brent Swain      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat  together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of  us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture  a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe  even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few  dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not  put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The  people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can  throw away their mistakes. >                                                                   Doug Pollard    >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Gary H. Lucas  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? >  >  >   Anthony, >   The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld  like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base metal is a source  of cracking under stress.  If you price the material I think you will  find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  The ADVANTAGE of  a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong  and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel  welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum structures are  best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use.  When you are  welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER  than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has  less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like sex, there is NO  substitute for skill when doing some things! >  >   Gary H. Lucas >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >     From: robert anthony  >     To: origamiboats@y...  >     Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM >     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? >  >  >  >  >       brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the  response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your  design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of  the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)  >     And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question  can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about  600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as  aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in  contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the  aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression  on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the  valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the  corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?  >       >  >  >  >     --------------------------------- >     Do You Yahoo!? >     Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >  >     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >  >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  >  >  >  >  >  >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
617|605|2002-02-09 19:08:00|Douglas Pollard|Re: improvements???|Hi Brent,      Seems to me your a bit touchy about orgami construction. Had you bothered to take a close look at my e-mail you would have seen that it was in reply to using Aluminite  to weld seams. As far as I am know this process is unproven and I stand by my statement that someone who can  bear the cost of a failure should do it with the idea of making money by the sale of this product which would then be a proven product.    As to orgami construction I am considering it for my next boat and that is why I am in this group.     To my mind I have done nothing but send an e-mail offering sound and healthy advice, for which you have attack me personally.      As to my being a cowardly parasite all I can say is, I am quite willing to send you my address privately so you can come see me or I'll meet you half way.      If your feeling froggy Jump!!!                                                 Douglas  Pollard    ----- Original Message -----    From: brentswain38    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:55 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???     To suggest that  over 100 very successful boats which have been    built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the    northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a    Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf ,    to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as    naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that    if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong .     If  none of us had been  prepared to improvise, we'd still be    living in caves .     Those  who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of    us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same    time  enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are    cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while    citicizing those very  efforts.      The French have been using origami style techniques to    commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late    70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be  naive enough to do it.     Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century    out of date needlesly  hangs a huge millstone around the necks of    cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages .                                               Brent Swain       --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote:   > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat    together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of    us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture    a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe    even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few    dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not    put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The    people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can    throw away their mistakes.   >                                                                     Doug Pollard      >   ----- Original Message -----    >   From: Gary H. Lucas    >   To: origamiboats@y...    >   Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM   >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???   >    >    >   Anthony,   >   The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld    like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base metal is a source    of cracking under stress.  If you price the material I think you will    find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  The ADVANTAGE of    a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong    and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel    welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum structures are    best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use.  When you are    welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER    than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has    less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like sex, there is NO    substitute for skill when doing some things!   >    >   Gary H. Lucas   >    >   ----- Original Message -----    >     From: robert anthony    >     To: origamiboats@y...    >     Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM   >     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???   >    >    >    >    >       brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the    response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your    design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of    the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)    >     And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question    can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about    600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as    aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in    contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the    aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression    on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the    valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the    corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?    >         >    >    >    >     ---------------------------------   >     Do You Yahoo!?   >     Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!   >    >     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   >    >    >    >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-   unsubscribe@y...    >    >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/    >    >    >    >    >    >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   >    >    >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-   unsubscribe@y...    >    >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of    Service.    >    >    >    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
618|605|2002-02-10 05:15:12|Jim Phillips|Re: improvements???|Yeah, Brent, way to go.  These parasites shouldn't even be on our group, sucking on our positive vibes.  Go away, Duggy, and criticise others.  We don't people of your ilk.  Cheers to the innovators (and King Brent!),  Jim   --- brentswain38 <brentswain38@...> wrote: > To suggest that  over 100 very successful boats  > which have been  > built , and have survived everything from > circumnavigations ,to the  > northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on > everything from a  > Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in > eight foot surf ,  > to collisions with everything from steel barges to > freighters ,is as  > naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world > is flat and that  > if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong > . >   If  none of us had been  prepared to improvise, > we'd still be  > living in caves . >   Those  who discourage improvisation and try to > discourage those of  > us who seek a way to make life easier for others , > while at the same  > time  enjoying the benefits gained through > improvisation ,are  > cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of > others , while  > citicizing those very  efforts. >    The French have been using origami style > techniques to  > commercially produce very successful metal yachts > since the late  > 70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be  naive > enough to do it. >   Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which > are a century  > out of date needlesly  hangs a huge millstone around > the necks of  > cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark > ages . >                                             Brent > Swain   >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" > <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways > to put a boat  > together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I > doubt that any of  > us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you > going to manufacture  > a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's > a mistake, maybe  > even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can > do is save a few  > dollars on a very large investment in money and > labor. I would not  > put anything into or on a boat that someone else had > not proven. The  > people in the small boat group are the ones to > experiment , they can  > throw away their mistakes. > >                                                    >                > Doug Pollard    > >   ----- Original Message -----  > >   From: Gary H. Lucas  > >   To: origamiboats@y...  > >   Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM > >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? > >  > >  > >   Anthony, > >   The alumimite is something like solder, it is > not a fusion weld  > like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base > metal is a source  > of cracking under stress.  If you price the material > I think you will  > find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  > The ADVANTAGE of  > a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds > are very strong  > and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more > difficult than steel  > welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum > structures are  > best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to > use.  When you are  > welding out of position, vertical or overhead, > aluminum is EASIER  > than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less > than steel it has  > less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like > sex, there is NO  > substitute for skill when doing some things! > >  > >   Gary H. Lucas > >  > >   ----- Original Message -----  > >     From: robert anthony  > >     To: origamiboats@y...  > >     Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM > >     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: > improvements??? > >  > >  > >  > >  > >       brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > Thanks for the  > response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to > construct your  > design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way > to the end of  > the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)  > >     And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I > pose the question  > can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts > at about  > 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of > skill to use ( as  > aluminum welding does) however it would put > dissimmilar metals in  > contact with each other.  The weld is actually > stronger than the  > aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a > small depression  > on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint > you could fill the  > valley in with epoxy offering protection to the > joint from the  > corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?  > >       > >  > >  > >  > >     --------------------------------- > >     Do You Yahoo!? > >     Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! > Greetings! > >  > >     [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > >  > >  > >  > >     To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@y... > >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > >   [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > >  > >  > >   To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@y... > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the > Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.  > >  > >  > >  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] >  >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com|
619|605|2002-02-10 06:51:05|robert anthony|Re: improvements???|I am glad to see all the discussion. I think this is healthy.  I would like to add my thoughts to the discussion.  First, I have not welded a boat before and don't trust my welding abilities to trust my life to my welding yet.  I probably would have someone help me build a metal boat that is an experienced welder.  I have no stake in aluminite , but the product looks easy to use, and requires no investment in equipment as most people already have a propane torch. The "welding" material doesn't have to be heated that hot and seems at the very least as a product that could be used for repairs in remote areas.  It also maybe useful to construct an aluminum dingy (this is not my endorsement for this use).  Yes the material probablely would cost a lot more than aluminum welding rods, but you don't need to buy a MIG welder and it can be done in the open air.  I appreciate the comment about the local stress this could put on the aliuminum plate.  Could be a problem that I didn't consider.  Again I commend Brent.  Guys this guy is offering his advice for free .  He in my opinion has the cutting edge of ideas in amatuer metal boat building.  He has tried many other ideas.  Most of us haven't.      --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
620|620|2002-02-10 12:52:01|Douglas Pollard|improvements|List,     Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from.     I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against new welding methods as long as their proven.       In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum.     Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of molded plywood and varnished..      We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and mastics.     He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would frown on building boats for the employees to play with]  So they had us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc.     A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing.  The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the aluminum and there was delaminating.      The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair.     This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. I am told it was under consideration  to be used in hulls for flying boats.        Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk.        It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing.     It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions.      My preference is to go sailing.                                                       Doug Pollard           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
621|620|2002-02-10 14:47:17|iprokopiw|Re: improvements|Just thought I would add a quick note in support of Doug.  The origami technique is innovative, but it was an adaption of  proven techniques of welding, etc. To risk your life (and those of  rescuers) on a welding or joining technique in critical ares of a  boat without any knowledge of the subsequent physical  properties of the joint is irresponsible.   Igor Prokopiw  --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...>  wrote:  > List, >     Because some think me a coward for saying that the one   boat you build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven  methods on, I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from.  >     I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything   against new welding methods as long as their proven.    >     In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop.   We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen  and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum.  >     Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia   {research and development}. One of their engineers and I were  looking at a sailboat we were building and he said, She would  be pretty built of molded plywood and varnished..   >     We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building   out of thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded  plywood. The guy was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the  Idea, saying the technology was available. I was skeptical not  having knowledge of glues and mastics.  >     He convinced NASA to do some research in the method.   They were not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov.  watchdog would frown on building boats for the employees to  play with]  So they had us build panels by this method, concave,  convex flat and etc.  >     A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing.  > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded   the aluminum and there was delaminating.   >     The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat   built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to  repair.  >     This was a project that could have made money but it failed.   I felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA  was very happy with the project as they now had reams of data  on this method. I am told it was under consideration  to be used  in hulls for flying boats.     >     Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I   would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat  that in fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk.     >     It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be   backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and  changed. A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of  thing.  >     It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to   sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a  certain amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other  distractions.  >      My preference is to go sailing.                                                         Doug Pollard          >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
622|620|2002-02-10 15:19:18|pvanderwaart|Re: improvements|>We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a   couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum.  Wolf Trap 30's?  A point about innovation. Although it is difficult to forsee every  aspect of a major innovation, they don't all pose the same sort of  risks. The origami method for boats doesn't require any unusual  engineering of the structure as I understand it. Once it has been  demonstrated that the construction process goes smoothly, there isn't  much doubt about whether the boat will be ok.   Strip building from aluminium is something else. I never thought of  that.  Peter|
623|620|2002-02-10 17:27:10|brentswain38|Re: improvements|I repeat, over 100 of these boats have been buiult, and all have been  well proven successes despite many torture tests . It's not anything  new or experimental  Most people would rather go cruising than spend years on grosly  outdated building methods.                                          Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > List, >     Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you  build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on,  I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. >     I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against  new welding methods as long as their proven.   >     In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We  built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple  of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. >     Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research  and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a  sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of  molded plywood and varnished..  >     We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of  thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy  was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology  was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and  mastics. >     He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were  not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would  frown on building boats for the employees to play with]  So they had  us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. >     A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing.  > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the  aluminum and there was delaminating.  >     The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat  built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. >     This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I  felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very  happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method.  I am told it was under consideration  to be used in hulls for flying  boats.    >     Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I  would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in  fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk.    >     It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be  backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed.  A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. >     It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to  sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain  amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. >      My preference is to go  sailing.                                                       Doug  Pollard         >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
624|624|2002-02-10 19:11:00|phillipdallen|Boats-of course|I don't mean to butt in, however, I've lost the thread (I think).   Are you discussing the Origami design (concept) or the method of  joining the various parts involved?  I am considering building a boat  and for that reason, am reading this and other forums.  The Origami  concept seems to be at the top of my list...at present.  To me, it  appears to be simple and strong.  I will read and otherwise study the  whole idea a lot more before I jump into it.  I will never start  without seeing an Origami boat (preferably under construction) first  hand.  This will have to wait 'till the viewing becomes  practical...as I live in Arkansas.  In the meantime...more study.   Anyone wishing to help or just stick in their oar is invited to  contact me via email.  Thanks to all, Phillip Allen|
625|625|2002-02-11 04:43:51|Alex & Kim Christie|A measure of moderation|As moderator I will jump in here, pull back the reins, and note that it appears that there may have been some confusion over the intent of recent messages, and now must attempt to iron out the kinks so as to douse the flames of misunderstanding.  I think both Brent and Doug were saying very similar things (correct me if I'm wrong), that there is a time and place for experimentation, and 1000 miles from shore is not that place.  I think Doug mentioned that testing a new, unproven method (alumimite brazing rods) on a low-cost, near-shore vessel such as a dinghy would be the right way to go, rather than investing megabucks on a potential failure. Ie, "innovate, but small-scale at first".  Brent's boatbuilding technique is an innovation in itself (he's been branded a "Heretic" in more traditional steel boatbuilding circles), but now has its own tradition.  It is interesting to ponder the idea that every tradition was once an innovation, isn't it? It is only a question of how many people within a group have adopted the innovation in order to turn it into a convention or tradition.  Sociologists have all sorts of fun studying this stuff.  So, to reiterate a little, I suggest that on the one hand, I don't think Doug meant that exprimentation is bad, just that keeping it reasonably small-scaled while testing would be prudent both for savings in costs and protection of life and limb.  Perhaps this is where some confusion began. As a person interested in the Origami method of steel boatbuilding, he is evidently not afraid to try something most people would consider new and unusual.  And on the other hand I don't see anywhere Brent was suggesting that Doug himself was a coward (which is what Doug thought, but was not the case from what I can tell).  If you re-read the messages, you'll see that his mention of the word "coward" was a general reference to people who wait along the sidelines and don't contribute, then only adopt the innovation when they think it is safe. Of course, caution is a worthy human instinct that has its place the in annals of human survival over the millenia.  I believe also that this instinct is well in place for Brent's boats, despite their unusual construction technique.  You can rest assured that Brent's survival instincts were operative way offshore with two miles of water below his keel and not a hint of land in sight. Brent developed a new style of boatbuilding in steel, but was also drawing on traditional knowledge of steel's physical attributes and capabilities in order to inform his innovation.  Lastly, I should ask all to exercise caution and courtesy in the writing of their posts and refrain from strong words (other-wise known among cowboys as "fightin' words") which can be miscontrued as to whom they were meant to be directed.  To not do so jeopardizes the stability of the group's existence as a medium of peaceful and reasoned communication on the subject of these boats. Also, please read carefully what the other writer has said, and if in doubt as to the intent, simply e-mail them for clarification.  More often than not, you'll find that things are not as they seem to be.  That is, "don't believe everything you read is about you!"  With the tendency for people sitting at a computer (sometimes with a time constraint hovering over them) to write off the top of their head their initial thoughts on a subject, then press "send", the internet probably offers the highest possibility for miscommunication over any other medium of communication in this age.  Be careful what you say, lest it "blow back" upon you!  Alex Christie  (moderator)   > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > > List, > >     Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you > build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, > I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. > >     I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against > new welding methods as long as their proven. > >     In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We > built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple > of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. > >     Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research > and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a > sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of > molded plywood and varnished.. > >     We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of > thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy > was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology > was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and > mastics. > >     He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were > not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would > frown on building boats for the employees to play with]  So they had > us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. > >     A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. > > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the > aluminum and there was delaminating. > >     The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat > built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. > >     This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I > felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very > happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. > I am told it was under consideration  to be used in hulls for flying > boats. > >     Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I > would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in > fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. > >     It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be > backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. > A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. > >     It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to > sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain > amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. > >      My preference is to go > sailing.                                                       Doug > Pollard > > |
626|625|2002-02-11 09:38:58|Douglas Pollard|Re: A measure of moderation|Alex Brent and the group,     I have felt from the start that this misunderstanding was completely my fault. I realize that it is the task of the communicator to word his writing in such a way as to not be misunderstood. Reading back over the very fist entry I can see lots of room for misinterpretation.     Brent I felt your reaction was way to stung but I also realize you must have to defend your ideas and methods all the time from cranks and unconstructive criticism by some who revel in tearing down another kids tree houses.     Once more, I was referring to the use of Aluminite in assembling a large boat rather than just a small experiment.in boat building. I know almost nothing about the product but I assume it is not really welding but is more akin to soldering or brazing.If it can be proven to make a strong safe joint I will be the first to applaud.      I would also like to say that in no way was I trying to put down on or find fault with the person who suggested it as a possibility. {In the fray I've forgotten who it was.}      These are the kinds of things we should be talking about, an idea thrown in for others to discuss and build on. It's called brain storming folks and undue criticism can kill and keep these ideas off line. What a shame! We  will all lose by that.     For my part in this distraction, I am sorry folks.                                                                    Doug Pollard                  ----- Original Message -----    From: Alex & Kim Christie    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:48 AM   Subject: [origamiboats] A measure of moderation     As moderator I will jump in here, pull back the reins, and note that it   appears that there may have been some confusion over the intent of recent   messages, and now must attempt to iron out the kinks so as to douse the   flames of misunderstanding.  I think both Brent and Doug were saying very   similar things (correct me if I'm wrong), that there is a time and place for   experimentation, and 1000 miles from shore is not that place.  I think Doug   mentioned that testing a new, unproven method (alumimite brazing rods) on a   low-cost, near-shore vessel such as a dinghy would be the right way to go,   rather than investing megabucks on a potential failure. Ie, "innovate, but   small-scale at first".  Brent's boatbuilding technique is an innovation in   itself (he's been branded a "Heretic" in more traditional steel boatbuilding   circles), but now has its own tradition.  It is interesting to ponder the   idea that every tradition was once an innovation, isn't it? It is only a   question of how many people within a group have adopted the innovation in   order to turn it into a convention or tradition.  Sociologists have all   sorts of fun studying this stuff.    So, to reiterate a little, I suggest that on the one hand, I don't think   Doug meant that exprimentation is bad, just that keeping it reasonably   small-scaled while testing would be prudent both for savings in costs and   protection of life and limb.  Perhaps this is where some confusion began.   As a person interested in the Origami method of steel boatbuilding, he is   evidently not afraid to try something most people would consider new and   unusual.  And on the other hand I don't see anywhere Brent was suggesting   that Doug himself was a coward (which is what Doug thought, but was not the   case from what I can tell).  If you re-read the messages, you'll see that   his mention of the word "coward" was a general reference to people who wait   along the sidelines and don't contribute, then only adopt the innovation   when they think it is safe. Of course, caution is a worthy human instinct   that has its place the in annals of human survival over the millenia.  I   believe also that this instinct is well in place for Brent's boats, despite   their unusual construction technique.  You can rest assured that Brent's   survival instincts were operative way offshore with two miles of water below   his keel and not a hint of land in sight. Brent developed a new style of   boatbuilding in steel, but was also drawing on traditional knowledge of   steel's physical attributes and capabilities in order to inform his   innovation.    Lastly, I should ask all to exercise caution and courtesy in the writing of   their posts and refrain from strong words (other-wise known among cowboys as   "fightin' words") which can be miscontrued as to whom they were meant to be   directed.  To not do so jeopardizes the stability of the group's existence   as a medium of peaceful and reasoned communication on the subject of these   boats. Also, please read carefully what the other writer has said, and if in   doubt as to the intent, simply e-mail them for clarification.  More often   than not, you'll find that things are not as they seem to be.  That is,   "don't believe everything you read is about you!"  With the tendency for   people sitting at a computer (sometimes with a time constraint hovering over   them) to write off the top of their head their initial thoughts on a   subject, then press "send", the internet probably offers the highest   possibility for miscommunication over any other medium of communication in   this age.  Be careful what you say, lest it "blow back" upon you!    Alex Christie    (moderator)    > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote:   > > List,   > >     Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you   > build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on,   > I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from.   > >     I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against   > new welding methods as long as their proven.   > >     In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We   > built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple   > of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum.   > >     Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research   > and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a   > sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of   > molded plywood and varnished..   > >     We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of   > thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy   > was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology   > was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and   > mastics.   > >     He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were   > not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would   > frown on building boats for the employees to play with]  So they had   > us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc.   > >     A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing.   > > The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the   > aluminum and there was delaminating.   > >     The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat   > built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair.   > >     This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I   > felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very   > happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method.   > I am told it was under consideration  to be used in hulls for flying   > boats.   > >     Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I   > would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in   > fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk.   > >     It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be   > backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed.   > A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing.   > >     It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to   > sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain   > amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions.   > >      My preference is to go   > sailing.                                                       Doug   > Pollard   > >            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
627|605|2002-02-11 11:07:18|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: improvements???|Hi, Brent. Are you saying over 100 boats have been built with Aluminite welds?   Stephen        -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:55 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: improvements???    To suggest that  over 100 very successful boats which have been  built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the  northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a  Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf ,  to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as  naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that  if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong .   If  none of us had been  prepared to improvise, we'd still be  living in caves .   Those  who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of  us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same  time  enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are  cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while  citicizing those very  efforts.    The French have been using origami style techniques to  commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late  70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be  naive enough to do it.   Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century  out of date needlesly  hangs a huge millstone around the necks of  cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages .                                             Brent Swain      --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: > I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat  together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of  us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture  a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe  even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few  dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not  put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The  people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can  throw away their mistakes. >                                                                   Doug Pollard    >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Gary H. Lucas  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 10:26 AM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? >  >  >   Anthony, >   The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld  like regular welding.  A weld harder than the base metal is a source  of cracking under stress.  If you price the material I think you will  find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat.  The ADVANTAGE of  a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong  and leakproof.  Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel  welding, it is somewhat different.  Large aluminum structures are  best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use.  When you are  welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER  than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has  less tendency to drip or droop.  This is not like sex, there is NO  substitute for skill when doing some things! >  >   Gary H. Lucas >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >     From: robert anthony  >     To: origamiboats@y...  >     Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 9:16 AM >     Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? >  >  >  >  >       brentswain38 <brentswain38@h...> wrote: Thanks for the  response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your  design?  (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of  the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.)  >     And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question  can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about  600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as  aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in  contact with each other.  The weld is actually stronger than the  aluminum plate.  I was thinking if you could leave a small depression  on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the  valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the  corrosive effects of seawater.)  What do you think?  >       >  >  >  >     --------------------------------- >     Do You Yahoo!? >     Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >  >     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >  >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>   >  >  >  >  >  >   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]    Yahoo! 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628|628|2002-02-11 19:34:51|Douglas Pollard|Aluminit|Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike.     Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so.      Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.      As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute.      He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots.      I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage.     I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster.      I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it.     Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was.  Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done.     If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! .                                                             Doug Pollard   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
629|628|2002-02-11 21:47:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminit|Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here.  Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult.  Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot  warm.  I used to repair broken aluminum light poles.  My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding.  I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it.  THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on.   The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour.  Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster?  I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding.  You need to give it up.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: Douglas Pollard    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit         Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike.       Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so.        Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.        As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute.        He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots.        I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage.       I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster.        I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it.       Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was.  Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done.       If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever!   .                                                               Doug Pollard     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
630|628|2002-02-11 22:19:04|Douglas Pollard|Re: Aluminit|AHHH!  I see the light, well nothing beats a trial but a failure.                                                 Doug    ----- Original Message -----    From: Gary H. Lucas    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 9:47 PM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit     Doug,   You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here.  Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult.  Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot  warm.  I used to repair broken aluminum light poles.  My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding.  I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it.  THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on.   The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour.  Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster?  I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding.  You need to give it up.    Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----      From: Douglas Pollard      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM     Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit           Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike.         Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so.          Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.          As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute.          He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots.          I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage.         I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster.          I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it.         Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was.  Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done.         If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever!     .                                                                 Doug Pollard       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]        To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
631|628|2002-02-12 00:12:11|robert anthony|Re: Aluminit|I don't think u are right about this one .  I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees.  The torch is heating th ebrazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate.   "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@...> wrote: Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here.  Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult.  Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot  warm.  I used to repair broken aluminum light poles.  My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding.  I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it.  THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on.   The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour.  Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster?  I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding.  You need to give it up.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: Douglas Pollard    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit         Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike.       Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so.        Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.        As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute.        He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots.        I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage.       I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster.        I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it.       Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was.  Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done.       If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever!   .                                                               Doug Pollard     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
632|620|2002-02-12 00:18:20|robert anthony|Re: improvements|Did you make any prototypes or experimental models before you built/ designed your first origami boat?  I got your book Brent, thanks for sending it, well worth the money, I'm still thinking what I would want in my ideal boat.      --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
633|633|2002-02-12 03:49:59|alex_christie|A few more photos of Moon Raven|Hi folks,  I've added 4 new photos of Moon Raven, a 36 footer, to the photos  section.  The boat had been moved to another location that made some  nice shots possible, so I thought I'd take a few fresh ones for the  group's interest. I think this boat was built pretty much as close to  Brent's plans and book as you can get, so is an excellent example of  the type.  Alex|
634|628|2002-02-12 08:21:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminit|Robert, If you have ever done any soldering or brazing you will find that nothing sticks until the base metal gets to EXACTLY the right temperature.  Too hot is as bad as too cold.  The temperature required falls right in a zone between the filler metal being a solid and a liquid.  Touching molten metal to a surface that is colder instantly cools it and all you get is a round ball that rolls off. That in a nutshell is the secret to soldering or brazing using any material you can name.  I work with electrical systems, most bad solder joints are caused by someone using too SMALL of a soldering iron.  If you use a big enough iron the joint heats instantly and the solder flows right in, BEFORE the heat can get sucked away by the wire, which is what causes the melted insulation you often see.  Gary H. Lucas    ----- Original Message -----    From: robert anthony    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:12 AM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit       I don't think u are right about this one .  I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees.  The torch is heating th ebrazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate.     "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@...> wrote: Doug,   You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here.  Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult.  Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot  warm.  I used to repair broken aluminum light poles.  My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding.  I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it.  THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on.   The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour.  Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster?  I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding.  You need to give it up.    Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----      From: Douglas Pollard      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM     Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit           Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike.         Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so.          Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.          As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute.          He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots.          I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage.         I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster.          I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it.         Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was.  Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done.         If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever!     .                                                                 Doug Pollard       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]        To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT    To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.       ---------------------------------   Do You Yahoo!?   Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]      To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
635|628|2002-02-12 09:45:21|Douglas Pollard|Re: Aluminit|Robert,     After reading Gary's post I think he's right. Seems to me we're both whipping a dead horse. Heating the whole boat is probably an exaggeration to make a point but you would have to heat a lot of metal !!.  Sounds like Gary is a welder and one thing I've learned over the years is don't argue with the welder they usually know what their talking about. A welder puts up with being burned , breathing smoke and miserable heat in the summertime. A guy has to like what he's doing to do that and I believe people who like their jobs are always knowledgeable.     If 600 degrees is the heat requirement for this soldering process it's awful close to the annealing temperature of aluminum  A guy could wind up with a dead soft plating.      I realize you were only questioning the amount of aluminum to be heated. I just thought I'd take this opportunity to dump my thinking on everyone.            ----- Original Message -----    From: robert anthony    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:12 AM   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit      I don't think u are right about this one .  I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees.  The torch is heating th ebrazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate.     "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@...> wrote: Doug,   You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here.  Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult.  Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot  warm.  I used to repair broken aluminum light poles.  My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding.  I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it.  THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on.   The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour.  Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster?  I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding.  You need to give it up.    Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----      From: Douglas Pollard      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:11 PM     Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminit           Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike.         Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so.          Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.          As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute.          He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots.          I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage.         I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster.          I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it.         Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was.  Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done.         If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever!     .                                                                 Doug Pollard       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]        To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/         [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT    To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.       ---------------------------------   Do You Yahoo!?   Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
636|628|2002-02-12 11:35:07|dr01allen|Re: Aluminit|>     Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with  aluminite, maybe every foot or so.   >     Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these  guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it.   if you really want to get innovative, you could glue the joints together using a backer plate (glue on the backer plate only, not in the joint) at discreete points along the weld.  I have some super glue that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low temps).    then call in the welder.  as the weld is made, the heat from the weld and the expansion of the metal will break the glue bond to the backer plates and they will fall off.  no going back to remove anything.  of course it's more expensive than simply clamping the pieces together, but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. <BG>  this might actually be a viable process if you need to cut open then re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise....   da|
637|637|2002-02-12 11:40:08|dr01allen|please trim posts|pressing <shift>-<cntrl>-<end> will highlight all text to the end of the message.  pressing the <delete> key will then remove it.  a couple of recent messages had 3 to 5 lines of comments on top of several pages of yahoo adendum.  cleaning up after yourself will save download time and improve readability.  da|
638|531|2002-02-12 14:09:05|rbyzitter2001|Re: engines|Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy  the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal.  As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years with  Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at  the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our  application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot  of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a  incorrect  way to go about this.  I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a  hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I  keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh  well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge two of  these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.  2.4  litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels.  I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set  applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very  smooth and comfortable eengine.  I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am allways   on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat.   Best regards.|
639|531|2002-02-12 20:09:55|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a number of  engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one that  impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I  wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own  manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough.  I  have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine  stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly  straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota  engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and  serviceable.  Cheers, rt     --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy  > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. >  > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years  with  > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines  at  > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our  > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are a  lot  > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a  incorrect  > way to go about this. >  > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of  a  > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I  > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh  > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge two  of  > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.   2.4  > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. >  > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set  > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very  > smooth and comfortable eengine. >  > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am  allways   > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project  boat.   > Best regards. |
640|531|2002-02-14 11:28:07|Douglas Pollard|Re: engines|I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well.     Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject.     I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds.      I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower  of load on the engine??         After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine.     I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin??  The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all.      I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good  for the engine.      If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics.      I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean.     We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather.      I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine.                                                     Doug Pollard        Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine.  I keep a spare and replace every four or five years.  These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings..                      ----- Original Message -----    From: ravensoars2001    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines     Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a number of    engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one that    impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I    wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own    manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough.  I    have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine    stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly    straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota    engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and    serviceable.  Cheers, rt      --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:   > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy    > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal.   >    > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence.   > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years    with    > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere.   > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines    at    > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our    > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are a    lot    > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a  incorrect    > way to go about this.   >    > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of    a    > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I    > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh    > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge two    of    > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.     2.4    > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels.   >    > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set    > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very    > smooth and comfortable eengine.   >    > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am    allways     > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project    boat.     > Best regards.           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
641|531|2002-02-14 11:50:28|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: engines|Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included). While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke.  They did not seem to be big on Yanmar.  Stephen Ditmore  National Network Technologies  301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor  Rutherford, NJ  07070  201-549-4133     -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Pollard [mailto:dougpol1@...] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:58 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines       I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well.     Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject.     I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds.      I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower  of load on the engine??         After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine.     I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin??  The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all.      I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good  for the engine.      If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics.      I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean.     We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather.      I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine.                                                     Doug Pollard        Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine.  I keep a spare and replace every four or five years.  These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings..                      ----- Original Message -----    From: ravensoars2001    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines     Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a number of    engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one that    impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I    wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own    manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough.  I    have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine    stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly    straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota    engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and    serviceable.  Cheers, rt      --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:   > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy    > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal.   >    > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence.   > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years    with    > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere.   > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines    at    > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our    > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are a    lot    > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a  incorrect    > way to go about this.   >    > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of    a    > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I    > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh    > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge two    of    > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.     2.4    > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels.   >    > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set    > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very    > smooth and comfortable eengine.   >    > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am    allways     > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project    boat.     > Best regards.           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
642|531|2002-02-14 12:04:27|Rick Byzitter|Re: engines|Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a Isuzu.    ----- Original Message -----    From: Ditmore, Stephen    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:49 AM   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines     Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included).   While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty   clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke.  They did not seem to be   big on Yanmar.    Stephen Ditmore    National Network Technologies    301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor    Rutherford, NJ  07070    201-549-4133      -----Original Message-----   From: Douglas Pollard [mailto:dougpol1@...]   Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 10:58 AM   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines         I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is   the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think,   mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well.       Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject.       I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling   down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a   fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does   not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds.        I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have   a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive   refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower  of load on   the engine??           After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made   of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me   the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless.   Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way   into the engine.       I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace   again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin??  The   down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water   out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud   boats are hated by all.        I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull   down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good  for the engine.        If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in   your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in   the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics.        I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the   engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked   through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About   once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel   system sparkling clean.       We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical   requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity   except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the   dock in hot weather.        I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but   this is mine.                                                       Doug Pollard            Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and   the engine.  I keep a spare and replace every four or five years.  These are   about $150 us each all made up with fittings..                           ----- Original Message -----      From: ravensoars2001      To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com      Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines       Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a number of      engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one that      impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I      wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own      manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough.  I      have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine      stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly      straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota      engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and      serviceable.  Cheers, rt        --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:     > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy      > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal.     >      > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence.     > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years      with      > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere.     > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines      at      > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our      > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are a      lot      > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a  incorrect      > way to go about this.     >      > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of      a      > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I      > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh      > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge two      of      > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.       2.4      > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels.     >      > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set      > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very      > smooth and comfortable eengine.     >      > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am      allways       > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project      boat.       > Best regards.             Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                  ADVERTISEMENT                                          To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com       Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.       [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!   <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
643|531|2002-02-14 12:22:58|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: engines|Ahhh.... the truth comes out!  Thanks for that piece of the puzzle, Rick.  Stephen      -----Original Message----- From: Rick Byzitter [mailto:rbyzitter@...] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:05 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines  Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a Isuzu.            ----- Original Message -----    From: Ditmore, Stephen    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:49 AM   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines     Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included).   While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty   clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke.  They did not seem to be   big on Yanmar.    Stephen Ditmore    National Network Technologies    301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor    Rutherford, NJ  07070    201-549-4133    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
644|531|2002-02-14 19:12:43|ravensoars2001|Re: engines and exhausts|Thanks for the added info on Isuzu.  Locally, they seem to have a  price advantage right now.  I am appreciating more and more that  appart from the logic of the skeg cooler, other advantages of a metal  boat include the ease with which you can install and adapt things  like prop tubes, tanks, through hulls, engine mounts etc.  So if you  go for a different engine or whatever it is not such a big deal.     The reason that mild steel out-lives stainless in exhausts is in the  relationship between oxygen and that thin skin of chromic oxide that  makes stainless--stainless.  Remove oxygen and it corodes in deep  pockets.  The reverse is true of carbon steels:  these materials    last longer in the absence of oxygen.  The only good reason to use  stainless in the manifold would be to resist heat induced distortion  in lighter materials.  Something stainless does better than carbon  steels.  That said--the rest of the system would be better suited to  mild steel or a wet exhaust perhaps?     Adding on to steel seems so straight forward --- In  origamiboats@y..., "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote:  > Ahhh.... the truth comes out!  Thanks for that piece of the puzzle,   Rick.  >  > Stephen >  >   >  >  -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Byzitter [mailto:rbyzitter@f...] > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 12:05 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines >  > Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a   Isuzu.   >  >   >   >   >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Ditmore, Stephen  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:49 AM >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines >  >  >   Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not   included).  >   While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it   pretty  >   clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke.  They did not   seem to  > be >   big on Yanmar. >  >   Stephen Ditmore  >   National Network Technologies  >   301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor  >   Rutherford, NJ  07070  >   201-549-4133 >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
645|531|2002-02-14 22:26:36|brentswain38|Re: engines|I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent  engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the  Charlottes and back.   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil  pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and  impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it.  The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve.   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a  drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch into the  pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs  and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made  it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan .  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded  onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a  pipe plug.   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible  to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the  engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on  the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of  the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour  oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the  pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full  charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at  sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the  overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch  the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat  before installing an engine next time.   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've  had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet  exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point  where you  inject water in .   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from  the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success  I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very   easy to build .   A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at  www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel  cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years  ago"                              Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: >     I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent  choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox.  Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine  really holds up well. >     Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. >     I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and  pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this  engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the  engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at  higher speeds.  >     I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so  I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive  refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower  of load  on the engine??    >      After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust  systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up  better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin  holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from  the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. >     I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to  replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting  thin??  The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand  pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded  anchorages the loud boats are hated by all.  >     I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries  and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good  for  the engine.  >     If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and  there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock.  Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially  in the tropics.  >     I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump  for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This  pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to  the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24  hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. >     We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical  requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity  except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when  at the dock in hot weather.  >     I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all  this but this is mine. >                                                     Doug Pollard >      >   Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand  pipe and the engine.  I keep a spare and replace every four or five  years.  These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings..    >  >       >       >  >    ----- Original Message -----  >   From: ravensoars2001  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines >  >  >   Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a number  of  >   engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one that  >   impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I  >   wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my  own  >   manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough.  I  >   have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the  marine  >   stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things  fairly  >   straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies marinising  Kubota  >   engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and  >   serviceable.  Cheers, rt >  >  >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: >   > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy  >   > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great  deal. >   >  >   > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of  experence. >   > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years  >   with  >   > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. >   > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize  engines  >   at  >   > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for  "our  >   > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are  a  >   lot  >   > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a   incorrect  >   > way to go about this. >   >  >   > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit  of  >   a  >   > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed.  I  >   > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but  than.....oh  >   > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge  two  >   of  >   > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.    >   2.4  >   > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. >   >  >   > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set  >   > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very  >   > smooth and comfortable eengine. >   >  >   > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am  >   allways   >   > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project  >   boat.   >   > Best regards. >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >               ADVERTISEMENT >               >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
646|531|2002-02-14 23:27:30|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: engines|Brent,  I saw you motoring past today from my roof-top here on the island.  With your dry exhaust, is it very loud to be on board for hours on end with the engine running? I could not hear anything from my vantage point, and I usually can hear outboards from there.  Does your exhaust exit the transom below the waterline to dampen the sound?  Alex|
647|531|2002-02-15 10:49:33|Rick Byzitter|Re: engines|The 2AB is and excellent choice as it is but a 2 cylinder version of the C-240. What this gives you is a reciprocating assembly, i.e.: crankshaft, bearings & pistons, etc. designed for literally twice as much HP.  This equates to extreme reliability & long life.    As for dry v.s. wet exhaust.  After spending the last 18 years repairing, maintaining & overhauling marine diesels in both commercial & pleasure boats, I would have to say the dry exhaust/keel cooled method is the only way to go.  Even a perfectly designed wet exhaust still has it's inherent problems.  Primarily much more maintenance, back pressure, corrosion damage to the valve train,  salt water infiltration in the engine, raw water pump maintenance, "plugging" of the sea strainer, one more through hull fitting,  failure of the anti siphon resulting in an engine full of sea water and possible sinking of the vessel.  I am not trying to instill paranoia, but these are all things I have seen.  Also on a lighter note, I was wandering, does anyone out there have a material list of the steel required for a 36 footer?  The company I work for brings a substantial amount of steel for our manufacturing division & I'm curious to know how much better I buy than "Joe the homebuilder". This may be of benefit to some of us "yet to build" our first or second hull.  Cheers.              ----- Original Message -----    From: brentswain38    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 7:26 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines     I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent    engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the    Charlottes and back.     The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil    pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and    impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it.    The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve.     When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a    drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch into the    pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs    and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made    it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan .   I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded    onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a    pipe plug.     One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible    to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the    engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on    the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of    the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour    oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the    pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full    charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at    sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the    overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch    the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat    before installing an engine next time.     My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've    had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet    exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point    where you  inject water in .     My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from    the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success    I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very    easy to build .    A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at    www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel    cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years    ago"                                Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote:   >     I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent    choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox.    Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine    really holds up well.   >     Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject.   >     I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and    pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this    engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the    engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at    higher speeds.    >     I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so    I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive    refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower  of load    on the engine??      >      After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust    systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up    better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin    holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from    the exhaust finds it's way into the engine.   >     I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to    replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting    thin??  The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand    pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded    anchorages the loud boats are hated by all.    >     I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries    and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good  for    the engine.    >     If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and    there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock.    Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially    in the tropics.    >     I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump    for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This    pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to    the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24    hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean.   >     We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical    requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity    except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when    at the dock in hot weather.    >     I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all    this but this is mine.   >                                                     Doug Pollard   >        >   Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand    pipe and the engine.  I keep a spare and replace every four or five    years.  These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings..      >    >         >         >    >    ----- Original Message -----    >   From: ravensoars2001    >   To: origamiboats@y...    >   Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines   >    >    >   Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a number    of    >   engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one that    >   impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I    >   wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my    own    >   manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough.  I    >   have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the    marine    >   stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things    fairly    >   straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies marinising    Kubota    >   engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and    >   serviceable.  Cheers, rt   >    >    >    >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:   >   > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy    >   > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great    deal.   >   >    >   > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of    experence.   >   > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years    >   with    >   > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere.   >   > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize    engines    >   at    >   > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for    "our    >   > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are    a    >   lot    >   > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a     incorrect    >   > way to go about this.   >   >    >   > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit    of    >   a    >   > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed.    I    >   > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but    than.....oh    >   > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge    two    >   of    >   > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.     >   2.4    >   > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels.   >   >    >   > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set    >   > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very    >   > smooth and comfortable eengine.   >   >    >   > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am    >   allways     >   > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project    >   boat.     >   > Best regards.   >    >    >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    >               ADVERTISEMENT   >                 >           >           >    >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    >    >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of    Service.    >    >    >    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]           Yahoo! Groups Sponsor                ADVERTISEMENT                                  To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
648|531|2002-02-15 14:36:05|brentswain38|Re: engines|My dry exhaust exits the transom about 8 inches above the waterline.  Where it exits I have a stainless elbow to take it below the  waterline where a rubber elbow points it aft, about 6 inches below  the waterline. I have a rubber flap on the end cut out of the  sidewall of a tire ,to stop any following seas from reaching the  engine . There is a 1/4 inch hole in the first stainless elbow to act  as a siphon break.I eliminated the inside muffler a year ago and it  didn't make any difference to the sound of the exhaust .As long as  the exhaust is about 6 inches below the waterline it kills all  outside sound. Diesel engineers say it would have to go down at least  3 ft before back pressure would become a problem.                                   Brent Swain  --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  > Brent, >  > I saw you motoring past today from my roof-top here on the island.    With  > your dry exhaust, is it very loud to be on board for hours on end   with the  > engine running? I could not hear anything from my vantage point,   and I  > usually can hear outboards from there.  Does your exhaust exit the   transom  > below the waterline to dampen the sound? >  > Alex |
649|531|2002-02-15 15:14:16|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|Brent, Rick,  good info on the dry exhaust and the oil change  modifications.  I have been stuggling with the pros and cons of a wet  vs dry system.  I too notice that it is past the water injection that  pitting starts to bore through the stainless.  One boat in the yard  here was set up with a stainless wet system and it rotted out in a  little less than 2 years.  The motor had also hydrauiliced due to a  failure of the rubber flap at the end.  The wet mild steel system  from before had one lasted for over 8 years.  That is only one  example to compare.  Are you insulating the exhaust pipe beyond your  manifold, putting a water jacket on it, or a bit of both?  the quote  from the diesel mechanic says a lot.   Thanks, rt       --- In origamiboats@y..., "Rick Byzitter" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > The 2AB is and excellent choice as it is but a 2 cylinder version  of the C-240. > What this gives you is a reciprocating assembly, i.e.: crankshaft,  bearings & pistons, etc. designed for literally twice as much HP.   This equates to extreme reliability & long life.  >  >  As for dry v.s. wet exhaust.  After spending the last 18 years  repairing, maintaining & overhauling marine diesels in both  commercial & pleasure boats, I would have to say the dry exhaust/keel  cooled method is the only way to go.  Even a perfectly designed wet  exhaust still has it's inherent problems.  Primarily much more  maintenance, back pressure, corrosion damage to the valve train,   salt water infiltration in the engine, raw water pump  maintenance, "plugging" of the sea strainer, one more through hull  fitting,  failure of the anti siphon resulting in an engine full of  sea water and possible sinking of the vessel.  I am not trying to  instill paranoia, but these are all things I have seen. >  > Also on a lighter note, I was wandering, does anyone out there have  a material list of the steel required for a 36 footer?  The company I  work for brings a substantial amount of steel for our manufacturing  division & I'm curious to know how much better I buy than "Joe the  homebuilder". > This may be of benefit to some of us "yet to build" our first or  second hull. >  > Cheers. >          >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: brentswain38  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 7:26 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines >  >  >   I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  Excellent  >   engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to  the  >   Charlottes and back. >     The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the  oil  >   pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts  and  >   impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on  it.  >   The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and  valve. >     When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done  for a  >   drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch into  the  >   pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four  legs  >   and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement  made  >   it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . >   I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow  welded  >   onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged  with a  >   pipe plug. >     One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  impossible  >   to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of  the  >   engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe  nipple on  >   the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top  of  >   the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can  pour  >   oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out  the  >   pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full  >   charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling  around at  >   sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the  >   overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to  catch  >   the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the  bat  >   before installing an engine next time. >     My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and  I've  >   had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that  stainless wet  >   exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point  >   where you  inject water in . >     My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much  from  >   the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the  success  >   I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is  very  >   easy to build .  >   A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet  at  >   www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel  >   cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business  years  >   ago"  >                               Brent Swain >  >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Douglas Pollard" <dougpol1@o...> wrote: >   >     I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent  >   choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45  horse.aprox.  >   Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This  engine  >   really holds up well. >   >     Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. >   >     I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries  and  >   pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this  >   engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the  >   engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at  >   higher speeds.  >   >     I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on  it, so  >   I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch  automotive  >   refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower  of  load  >   on the engine??    >   >      After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust  >   systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel  holds up  >   better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats  pin  >   holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water  from  >   the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. >   >     I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due  to  >   replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be  getting  >   thin??  The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long  stand  >   pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In  crowded  >   anchorages the loud boats are hated by all.  >   >     I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge  batteries  >   and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its  good  for  >   the engine.  >   >     If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here  and  >   there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a  dock.  >   Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives  especially  >   in the tropics.  >   >     I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary  pump  >   for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail.  This  >   pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel  to  >   the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump  about 24  >   hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. >   >     We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt  electrical  >   requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt  electricity  >   except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches  when  >   at the dock in hot weather.  >   >     I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on  all  >   this but this is mine. >   >                                                     Doug Pollard >   >      >   >   Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the  stand  >   pipe and the engine.  I keep a spare and replace every four or  five  >   years.  These are about $150 us each all made up with  fittings..    >   >  >   >       >   >       >   >  >   >    ----- Original Message -----  >   >   From: ravensoars2001  >   >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   >   Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 8:09 PM >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines >   >  >   >  >   >   Thank you, that was useful information.  I just looked at a  number  >   of  >   >   engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend.  The one  that  >   >   impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model.  I  >   >   wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making  my  >   own  >   >   manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward  enough.  I  >   >   have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all  the  >   marine  >   >   stuff on it.  With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things  >   fairly  >   >   straight forward.  Apparently there are 5 companies  marinising  >   Kubota  >   >   engines at the moment.  The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and  >   >   serviceable.  Cheers, rt >   >  >   >  >   >  >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>  wrote: >   >   > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy  >   >   > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a  great  >   deal. >   >   >  >   >   > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of  >   experence. >   >   > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18  years  >   >   with  >   >   > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. >   >   > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize  >   engines  >   >   at  >   >   > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large  for  >   "our  >   >   > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there  are  >   a  >   >   lot  >   >   > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a   >   incorrect  >   >   > way to go about this. >   >   >  >   >   > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made  a bit  >   of  >   >   a  >   >   > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my  shed.  >   I  >   >   > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but  >   than.....oh  >   >   > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my  knowledge  >   two  >   >   of  >   >   > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240  models.  >  >   >   2.4  >   >   > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. >   >   >  >   >   > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen- set  >   >   > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a  very  >   >   > smooth and comfortable eengine. >   >   >  >   >   > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am  >   >   allways   >   >   > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain  project  >   >   boat.   >   >   > Best regards. >   >  >   >  >   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >   >               ADVERTISEMENT >   >               >   >         >   >         >   >  >   >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  >   origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >  >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  >   Service.  >   >  >   >  >   >  >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >               ADVERTISEMENT >               >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
650|531|2002-02-15 16:12:19|rbyzitter2001|engines|Can one attach some digital pics to posting, is this even possible? Or do I have to open a file in the "Files" section? Cheers.|
651|651|2002-02-16 11:35:44|greenguy2ca|Outboards|This discussion on diesels lead me to seriously consider an  outboard.  Does anyone out there have an outboard and if so, what are  the pros and cons.    Thanks|
652|531|2002-02-16 12:36:36|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: engines|> Can one attach some digital pics to posting, is this even possible? > Or do I have to open a file in the "Files" section? > Cheers.   After a virus attack some months back, I removed the attachments feature for group security until the storm passed, but perhaps I'll put it back on for a trial period, and see how it goes, ok?  If you want the photo more accessable for future visitors, then post it in the Photos section, which has thumbnail capacity.  One can also post to Files, but there is no thumbnail function there.  If you want the group to have a look, just post a note to everyone with the name of the album and the name of the photo contained within.  Everyone, keep your antiviral software up to date, and don't open an attachment if it doesn't seem right!  Alex Christie  (moderator)|
653|653|2002-02-16 17:48:35|Douglas Pollard|Izuzu Engines|              I don't know that this is true,  but I thought I'd pass it along.      I was down at the boat  yard today working on my mast. Saw a fellow painting what looked to be a brand  new yellow engine. Walked over to see and sure enough it was  a new Izuzu. I stood around like a tourist for a while while he ignored  me.  I could stand it no longer. I asked looks brand new why are you  painting it.     He looked  a little  disgusted at me, but answered the factory paint 'is no good so I  am putting two more coats on before I put it in my boat.      I said bye and walked away  feeling like I should have known better than to ask such a dumb  question.       Thinking back I remembered that  my Izuzu was fairly rusty when I took it out and rebuilt it. Maybe the  paint is not the best in the world since these engine are built as industrial  engines.     For any one buying one to put in  their boat I would at least ask around about this. Most likely it's not a  bad idea to add some paint on any new engine???                                                        Doug  Pollard        |
654|628|2002-02-16 18:03:05|Douglas Pollard|Re: Aluminit|          Say da all you want but that's how ships are built.  The fitters come along fit the plates and tack them in place. the welder follows  later and welds the seams.     Say da ! to  Newport News  ship building and Electric Boat works.                                                                   Using aluminite is defiantly Da  !  though.                                                                            Doug     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    dr01allen       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:35    AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re:  Aluminit   >     Suppose you cut    fit and tacked your aluminum boat together withaluminite, maybe every foot    or so. >     Now you can call in a really good    welder and believe me theseguys can be worth the money. He can use his    water-cooled wire feederand a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast    you can't believe it. if you really want to get innovative, you could    glue the jointstogether using a backer plate (glue on the backer plate    only, not inthe joint) at discreete points along the weld.  I have    some super gluethat will bond to aluminum (for a while at low    temps).  then call in the welder.  as the weld is made, the    heat from the weldand the expansion of the metal will break the glue bond    to the backerplates and they will fall off.  no going back to remove    anything.  ofcourse it's more expensive than simply clamping the    pieces together,but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern.    <BG>this might actually be a viable process if you need to cut    open thenre-seal a watertight or dead space,    otherwise....daTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
655|651|2002-02-16 19:55:50|brentswain38|Re: Outboards|In my first boat I sailed out to New Zealand using an out board for an  auxillary. When I left Juan de Fuca it quit. In Frisco I tried and  gave up trying to get it fixed , so windjammed to Nuku Hiva. There I  met an outboard mechanic who got it running albeit rather roughly. The  top main bearing was shot. I replaced the top bearing in Tahiti and  got it running again ( it had quit again on the way there, salt in the  ignition)By the time I got to Rarotonga it had quit again. I spent  several days getting the salt out of the ignition there, cleared out  for New Zealand then went back to the boat to leave. It wouldn't  start.   About a week out of Raro, it fell calm and I cleaned out the  ignition and got it running beautifully. By the time I arrived in New  Zealand it wouldn't start , salt in the ignition again altho I had  kept it belowdecks the whole time .   Outboards have improverd a lot since then, but they still consist of  tiny parts and screws made of various electrolycally incompatible  metals and are extremely hard to work on. No matter where you mount  them they have a tendency to kick out of the water in a swell. They  are extremely vulnerable to hitting floating objects.They require you  to carry large amounts of very explosive fueland consume a lot more  fuel per mile than a diesel.Theey rely on electricity to keep them  running, not to compatible with seawater especially when they have to  operate in an extremely exposed position.   I installed a diesel in New Zealand and the problems with  diesel engines since ,have been a fraction of what they had been with  an outboard.                                     Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > This discussion on diesels lead me to seriously consider an  > outboard.  Does anyone out there have an outboard and if so, what  are  > the pros and cons.   >  > Thanks |
656|531|2002-02-16 20:14:16|brentswain38|Re: engines|Several friends and clients bought diesels from Detroit diesel  Allisson, 30 HP perkins with transmissions rated at maximum 20 hp as a  package deal put together by the dealer, and sold as a complete  package . The trannys crapped out rather quickly,sometimes  in less  than 60 hours . They recieved only excuses and no compensation  whatever from Detroit Diesel Allison who incidentally supplied the  engines for the BC Fastcat Ferries . The ferries have had more than  their share of problems.    I had warned the government about problems with Detroit Diesel  Allison before they built the cats .   Make sure the transmission you put on the engine is rated for the  full continuous horsepower of the engine, even if they are sold as a  package deal, and check the suppliers reputation for warrantee sevice  on what they sell.                             Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello.  This is my first post to this group.  Really enjoy  > the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. >  > As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. > I have worked at the dealer and  distributor level for 18 years with  > Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. > It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines  at  > the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our  > application".  One must err on the side of caution as there are a  lot  > of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a  incorrect  > way to go about this. >  > I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of  a  > hobby of allways having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I  > keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh  > well may be the next one will be.  To the best of my knowledge two  of  > these went into Swain designs.  Both of these were C-240 models.   2.4  > litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. >  > I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set  > applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr.  At 1800rpm this is a very  > smooth and comfortable eengine. >  > I hope this is of some help to those out there.  P.S.  I am allways    > on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat.    > Best regards. |
657|657|2002-02-17 05:29:06|edward_stoneuk|Engines|Hi. Does anyone have any information on the Daihatsu CLMD25 engine? I  have bought one that was salvaged from the lifeboat of a wrecked  freighter and cannot find any info on the web including the Daihatsu  Diesel web page.  Best regards, Ted Stone|
658|628|2002-02-17 05:44:58|Jim Phillips|Re: Aluminit|You're hilarious, Doug.  You give me so many laughs in amongst the education.  I think he said da, because it appears that those are his intitals. (dr01allen).  Daahhhh!  Fair winds and as little time in boatyards as possible for everyone!  Cheers,  Jim.    --- Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:  > Say da all you want but that's how ships are built. > The fitters come along fit the plates and tack them > in place. the welder follows later and welds the > seams. >     Say da ! to  Newport News ship building and > Electric Boat works.                                 >                                >    Using aluminite is defiantly Da !  though.        >              >                                                     > Doug >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: dr01allen  >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >   Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:35 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit >  >  >  >   >     Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum > boat together with >   aluminite, maybe every foot or so.  >   >     Now you can call in a really good welder and > believe me these >   guys can be worth the money. He can use his > water-cooled wire feeder >   and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast > you can't believe it.  >  >   if you really want to get innovative, you could > glue the joints >   together using a backer plate (glue on the backer > plate only, not in >   the joint) at discreete points along the weld.  I > have some super glue >   that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low > temps).   >  >   then call in the welder.  as the weld is made, the > heat from the weld >   and the expansion of the metal will break the glue > bond to the backer >   plates and they will fall off.  no going back to > remove anything.  of >   course it's more expensive than simply clamping > the pieces together, >   but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. <BG> >  >   this might actually be a viable process if you > need to cut open then >   re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise.... >  >  >   da >  >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >               ADVERTISEMENT >               >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service.  >  >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com|
659|628|2002-02-17 09:09:47|Douglas Pollard|Re: Aluminit|          Holy Cow! Jim,    I'm as red as a nun buoy on  the wrong side of the channel.  Da I beg your pardon. That was the last in a list  of the thousand dumbest things I ever did or said    Daaahh!                                                                      Doug    ----- Original Message -----     <b>From:</b>    Jim Phillips       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 17, 2002 5:44    AM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re:    Aluminit   You're hilarious,    Doug.  You give me so many laughs inamongst the education.I    think he said da, because it appears that those arehis intitals.    (dr01allen).Daahhhh!Fair winds and as little time in boatyards    as possiblefor everyone!Cheers,Jim.---    Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...>    wrote:> Say da all you want but that's how ships are built.> The    fitters come along fit the plates and tack them> in place. the welder    follows later and welds the> seams.>     Say    da ! to  Newport News ship building and> Electric Boat    works.                                   >                                  >    Using aluminite is defiantly Da !     though.          >                >                                                       > Doug>   ----- Original Message -----    >   From: dr01allen >   To:    origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >   Sent: Tuesday, February 12,    2002 11:35 AM>   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit>    > > >   >     Suppose    you cut fit and tacked your aluminum> boat together    with>   aluminite, maybe every foot or so.    >   >     Now you can call in a really    good welder and> believe me these>   guys can be worth    the money. He can use his> water-cooled wire feeder>      and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast> you can't believe    it. > >   if you really want to get innovative, you    could> glue the joints>   together using a backer    plate (glue on the backer> plate only, not in>   the    joint) at discreete points along the weld.  I> have some super    glue>   that will bond to aluminum (for a while at    low> temps).  > >   then call in the    welder.  as the weld is made, the> heat from the    weld>   and the expansion of the metal will break the    glue> bond to the backer>   plates and they will fall    off.  no going back to> remove anything.     of>   course it's more expensive than simply clamping>    the pieces together,>   but I didn't see cost mentioned as a    concern. <BG>> >   this might actually be a    viable process if you> need to cut open then>      re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise....> >    >   da> > >    >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    >                  ADVERTISEMENT>                 >           >        >    >   To Post a message, send it to:  >    origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>   To Unsubscribe, send a blank    message to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >    >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the    Yahoo!> Terms of Service. > >     __________________________________________________Do You    Yahoo!?Everything you'll ever need on one web pagefrom News and Sport    to Email and Music Chartshttp://uk.my.yahoo.comTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
660|628|2002-02-17 13:39:47|robert anthony|sheer lines|  I pose Brent a question.  In your book, how did you know the sheer line is part of an ellipse? Robert Anthony<b>Do You Yahoo!?</b> Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games|
661|661|2002-02-17 13:47:14|pvanderwaart|bilge insulation|If y'all don't mind answering a question for a tire-kicker...  When you insulate the interior, do you foam the entire bilge? If so,  doesn't it eventually get pretty messy? If not, doesn't it collect a  puddle?  Peter|
662|662|2002-02-17 19:16:49|seadog122543|"NUTHIN WONG "|I am very interested in the design and building of the  "Nuthin  Wong " Do you know where I can find more information?  John Bridges    jgbridges43@...|
663|662|2002-02-17 19:49:14|jim_cl|Re: "NUTHIN WONG "|Why not speak to the owner & skipper.  I met him last year in St Martin.  His email is one of the following  (my memory is slipping and I didn't write it down at the time!)  chinesejunk@...  chinesejunk@...  I think he should be up around Canada again by now...  Cheers, and as little time as possible in boatyards,  Jim.    --- In origamiboats@y..., "seadog122543" <seadog122543@y...> wrote: > I am very interested in the design and building of the  "Nuthin  > Wong " Do you know where I can find more information?  John Bridges >    jgbridges43@h... |
664|664|2002-02-17 22:04:40|jim_cl|origami cats|G'day all!  This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land  bound but eager to build another boat and get away again.  It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many  (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat.  Get  away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer  and give us all an update on your origami progress.  Please.  My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we  get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more  crew (aka kids).  Have to be leaving in 2006.  Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for  constructive comments, return abuse or whatever.  The ideas are  based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my  parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to  go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel  sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef.  I  liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were  some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck  slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc)  So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat.  Origami or  not, that is the question, my friends.    Some brief notes:  1.  50' LOA 2.  25' BOA 3.  5' individual hull beam. 4.  No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with  timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5.  Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance.  Wing deck can  be flush with top of each hull. 6.  Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2  people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines.  Socialising in  port will be on the central deck. 7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless  technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8.  Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation.  Fairly V- ed, knife-shaped bow. 9.  Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the  waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam  alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective  stern and bow sections to the two parts.  Will minimise wet surface  area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11.  Small fixed keel and skeg.  Drawing no more than 3', preferably  2'. 12  Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13.  Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which  will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external  centreboard.  (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on  until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a  depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the  waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other yachties and our  own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail  onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut  tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I digress...)  I  don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want  the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal  draft and being able to run aground.  Asthetically, it will be ok as  it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing  deck.  Comments welcome. 14.  "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up.  Transom can actually  be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and  provide steep boarding steps.  Rudder must stick out an inch or so  beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each  rudder. 15.  Direct tiller steering.  Also trim tab steering thru use of a  mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs.   Windvane self-steering goes without saying.  Backed up by small  electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16.  Propulsion via an outboard in each hull.  We detest using the  engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we  used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the  outboard on the dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in  each hull in front of skeg.  Lower opening of well to be covered  with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open  when lowered.  Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.  Have to be able  to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. 17.  Rig to be unstayed and biplane.  Undecided whether to go for  wishbone or boom.  Various pros and cons for both cases.  Will be  unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon  fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly  priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging.  Without all the  normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a  person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a  shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining  wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:).   The rig  will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than  having one central mast.  And structurally it makes more sense to  have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the  wing deck. 18.  Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a  track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast  (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order  to make it free standing).  Comments, please. 19.  A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and  hulls.  Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but  provides little wind resistance.  Solar panels to go on top, small  fireplace underneath with sandbox.  Drop down canvas sides around  perimeter for privacy at anchor.  Will be ugly but private in port  with the sides down.  And will sail like a bat out of hell with the  sides up, little windage, lee boards down. 20.  6' headroom in each hull. 21.  No gas for cooking.  Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it  parafin depending on where you are from).  These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas.  Let me know what you think  of this crazy down-under sailor.  No comments about the tedious  topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE.  Tell me something new.  On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor,  I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me)  is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts  and having many adventures in his travels about the globe.  Some of  you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and  fitout at:  http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html     Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible  in a boatyard.  Jim.|
665|665|2002-02-18 08:46:10|Douglas Pollard|Going south|          Hi Y'all,     I will be unsubscribing from the  list for a few weeks. I am going down to Florida to help a friend get his boat  ready for a few years in the Caribbean. I wish I could go with them but  this is their adventure. I'm sure I'll save my pennies and fly down a few times  and cruise a week or two after they leave.     Just in case any of you think  you can do without me here,  I"LL BE  BACK, so rest easy.                                                            Doug  Pollard |
666|666|2002-02-18 08:47:24|Douglas Pollard|(no subject)|          unsubscribe|
667|664|2002-02-18 13:57:44|brentswain38|Re: origami cats|I started out using morse cable on the trimtab. It works OK but morse  cable is prone to filling up with salt and corrosion eventually.  It also sometimes has a limited travel.   I've switched to solid rod shaft or sch 40 pipe from the transom 2  ft to one side of the rudder,to under the sidedeck alongside the  steering seat. An arm hangs down off hte shaft inside with a linkage  to connect it to a jogstick in front of the steering seat. On the  outside , the shaft passes through a stuffing box in the transom and  has an arm pointing upward with a linkage to a tiller on the trimtab.  The best attatchment point seems to be about an inch behind the axis  of the rudder to give a slight negative feedback to prevent  oversteering .This system should be good for at least 500 years before  I have to think about replacing it .   On the inside I use an autohelm 800, the smallest one they make . As  it only has to power the balanced trimtab, it's all that is needed ,  there svery little load on it.It's been there for 10 years and  thousands of miles with no problems.                       Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "jim_cl" <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > G'day all! >  > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land  > bound but eager to build another boat and get away again. >  > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many  > (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat.  Get  > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer  > and give us all an update on your origami progress.  Please. >  > My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we  > get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more  > crew (aka kids).  Have to be leaving in 2006. >  > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for  > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever.  The ideas are  > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my  > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to  > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel  > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef.  I  > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were  > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck  > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc) >  > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat.  Origami or  > not, that is the question, my friends.   >  > Some brief notes: >  > 1.  50' LOA > 2.  25' BOA > 3.  5' individual hull beam. > 4.  No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with  > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. > 5.  Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance.  Wing deck can  > be flush with top of each hull. > 6.  Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2  > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines.  Socialising in  > port will be on the central deck. > 7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless  > technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? > 8.  Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation.  Fairly V- > ed, knife-shaped bow. > 9.  Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > 10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the  > waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam  > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective  > stern and bow sections to the two parts.  Will minimise wet surface  > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > 11.  Small fixed keel and skeg.  Drawing no more than 3', preferably  > 2'. > 12  Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13.  Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which  > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external  > centreboard.  (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on  > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a  > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the  > waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other yachties and our  > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail  > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut  > tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I digress...)  I  > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want  > the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal  > draft and being able to run aground.  Asthetically, it will be ok as  > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing  > deck.  Comments welcome. > 14.  "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up.  Transom can actually  > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and  > provide steep boarding steps.  Rudder must stick out an inch or so  > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each  > rudder. > 15.  Direct tiller steering.  Also trim tab steering thru use of a  > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs.   > Windvane self-steering goes without saying.  Backed up by small  > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. > 16.  Propulsion via an outboard in each hull.  We detest using the  > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we  > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the  > outboard on the dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in  > each hull in front of skeg.  Lower opening of well to be covered  > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open  > when lowered.  Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.  Have to be able  > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > 17.  Rig to be unstayed and biplane.  Undecided whether to go for  > wishbone or boom.  Various pros and cons for both cases.  Will be  > unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon  > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly  > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging.  Without all the  > normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a  > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a  > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining  > wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:).   The rig  > will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than  > having one central mast.  And structurally it makes more sense to  > have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the  > wing deck. > 18.  Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a  > track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast  > (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order  > to make it free standing).  Comments, please. > 19.  A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and  > hulls.  Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but  > provides little wind resistance.  Solar panels to go on top, small  > fireplace underneath with sandbox.  Drop down canvas sides around  > perimeter for privacy at anchor.  Will be ugly but private in port  > with the sides down.  And will sail like a bat out of hell with the  > sides up, little windage, lee boards down. > 20.  6' headroom in each hull. > 21.  No gas for cooking.  Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it  > parafin depending on where you are from). >  > These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas.  Let me know what you think  > of this crazy down-under sailor.  No comments about the tedious  > topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE.  Tell me something new. >  > On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor,  > I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me)  > is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts  > and having many adventures in his travels about the globe.  Some of  > you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and  > fitout at: >  > http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html    >  > Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible  > in a boatyard. >  > Jim. |
668|661|2002-02-18 14:07:15|brentswain38|Re: bilge insulation|DO NOT foam the entire bilge. People who have , have ended up scraping  it out when it becomes a soggy mass.   Insulating the underside of the floor is easier and keeps the  insulation out of the bilge while giving the same insulation value and  drastically reducing the amount of condensation. Insulation under the  floorboards is removable.Most of my boats have a large built in   watertank in the bilge who's top is just below the floor. I recomend  hinging the entire floor with a long piano hinge down one side so you  can throw a piece of styrofoam down and cloe the lid ( floor ) on top  of it. If the foam gets grubby, simply lift the lid and replace it.   Foam to the floorboards , but not beyond .Leave the area under the  engine and the centre  of the space under the  wheelhouse foam free.                         Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > If y'all don't mind answering a question for a tire-kicker... >  > When you insulate the interior, do you foam the entire bilge? If so,  > doesn't it eventually get pretty messy? If not, doesn't it collect a  > puddle? >  > Peter |
669|628|2002-02-18 14:12:58|brentswain38|Re: sheer lines|I read in an article on aesthetics years ago that the traditional fife  sheer was part of an elipse . Since then I've noticed that the better  a sheerline looks, the closer it is to being part of an elipse. I've  also noticed that the further it departs from being part of an elipse  , the uglier it gets.                                              Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >  >   >  I pose Brent a question.  In your book, how did you know the sheer  line is part of an ellipse? > Robert Anthony >  >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games |
670|670|2002-02-18 15:12:34|rbyzitter2001|Steel required.|Hello again.  I have a basic materials required list here for rough  costing.  I was wandering if you folks could add anything substantial  that may be missing.   2x 3/16"x8x36' plate 1x 10 gauge 6x20' sheet 5x 10 gauge 4x8' sheet 4x 10 gauge 5x10' sheet 2x 1/4"x4x12'plate 1x 1/2"x18"x10' plate 300'x1x1x1/4" angle 360'x 3/8x1" flat bar   If this is a fairly accurate materials list I can go about getting  some costing on this first big step.  Does any one know if there are  some study plans available?  I have Brent's book "How To Build A  Better Steel Boat", this has been very informative but I would like  to get into this a little deeper.  Cheers.|
671|670|2002-02-18 21:41:29|Larry Doyle|Re: Steel required.|          I got the following from Brent:   The steel list for the basic shell of the 31(  hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as  follows   Hull-  2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate    1-4x8 ft x 3/16th   Decks cabin etc  10- 4x8 x 1/8th    1-6x12x1/8th    Keel(s)  1-5x12x1/4    1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl  Twin Keels leading edges    2-3ft6"x2"shaft  Single   5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall  thickness )   Twin keel supports   4-5ftx21/2"x21/2"  angle  Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths   Deck  stiffners   10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar 16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve  pipe   12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe   4 20 ft lengths 1  inch galve sch 40 pipe   Ballast 3500 lbs lead .  For the  36 it's as follows    2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate     1-4x8x3/16th plate    3-5x10x1/8th"   5 -4x8x1/8th" pl   1  -6x20x1/8th"   1-8x12x1/4 inch plate    10- 1"  x1"x20ft angle     14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft     1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate    leading edges and  keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6 inces longer on the angle irons  and 1/2 inch larger on the solid shaft leading edges of the twin keels  .   Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe     16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv  pipe   4500 lbs of lead ballast   When using wheel  weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of the clips  .                                      Brent Swain|
672|664|2002-02-18 22:48:42|Doug Barnard|Re: origami cats|> -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@...]  > 7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless > technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards?   Why aluminum? You spoke of banging into things with a steel yacht (great story, btw!), so why change?   > 10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the > waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective > stern and bow sections to the two parts.  Will minimise wet surface > area, construction time and cost (less welding).   Won't this be somewhat funky? I'm no expert on cats, but isn't there some fairly intense curving that would need to be done? Trying to bend that tubing would be a nightmare!  It seems to me that making two really thin and long Swain origami hulls would be a much better way to go. Also, how are you planning on attaching the two hulls to the deck? That's the part that really threw me. I've heard of plenty of epoxy or fiberglass cat construction plans, but no steel ones. That joint is going to need some engineering, IMHO.  Not dissin' you here, as someone who is designing an origami/Van de Stadt-type trawler, I'm all ears as to new construction techniques!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T steel trawler|
673|664|2002-02-18 23:19:12|jim_cl|Doug's Qs about origami cats|Doug,  Thanks for your comments.  I'm changing from steel to aluminium because I like the strength of  steel but dislike the continuous chipping and painting.  Alumin gets  me the strength (or very close to) but not the rust.  The cat I'm going to build will have two very long narrow hulls.   The central 25' (maybe only 20') can be straight underwater, with no  curves necessary - pointy bit at the front, 25' straight bit in the  middle and fuller stern.  Shouldn't look funky as this will mostly  be underwater.  No bending of the tubing is necessary.  As for the decks, we have to consider: a) the decks on each individual hull, and b) the central wing deck.  The deck of each hull will be alum welded to the hulls, just like a  normal steel boat.  No leaks, totally watertight with no glued or  bolted joints.  The cross beams will likewise be made of off-the-shelf alum spars  that will be welded into each hull.  Each cross-beam will totally  cross each of the two hulls in order to achieve the structural  integrity required.  The wooden planks to allow percolation through the wing deck will be  screwed or bolted to a framework of aluminium beams welded to the  cross-beams.  Two long thin origami hulls may be the way to go.  Maybe a hybrid of  origami stern and bow and off-the-shelf tubing in the middle?  How are you designing your boat?  When do you expect to start  construction?  What are your plans after the Iron Lotus hits the  water?  Cheers, mate,  Jim.|
674|664|2002-02-19 01:51:44|Doug Barnard|Re: Doug's Qs about origami cats|> -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@...]  > How are you designing your boat?  When do you expect to start > construction?  What are your plans after the Iron Lotus hits the > water?   I started with traditional plans from Charles Wittholz, then took the Table of Offsets and plotted them into Rhino 3D to get my hull shape. I think that I'll be able to take the developed plates from Rhino and have the steel CNC'd directly.  The rest of the design was done in discreet 3ds max software, to get the true feel of the boat. I'll send you a couple of pics in a separate email; I've got full flythrus of above and below decks, if you're interested.  I tried real hard to stick to a canonical origami design, but it seems that I couldn't get the right shape for a trawler. By using more of a Van de Stadt strip method, it increases the welds but gives me the right shape. Also, this being a somewhat larger hull, building it in a cradle makes more sense.  I'm planning on starting this summer <sound of fingers crossing> if all goes as planned. The wife and I figured that this was a perfect excuse to try and get rid of outstanding debt before starting in. Also, I'm finishing up a 20' I/O go-fast modified deep-V, which should be hitting the water in a few weeks.  As to the aftermath, probably get the boat wet here in So. Cal., clear out the house for rental, then truck the boat to Houston, Texas to put it in at the edge of the ICW for some glorious cruising and unabashed telling of tall tales!  ___________________________ Doug Barnard currently in design phase of "Iron Lotus" 48' X 16' X 4'3" X 22T steel trawler|
675|675|2002-02-20 01:26:47|aklove2u|ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION|I'm glad to see all the discussion going on about this unique  boatbuilding process.  It says alot about anything when there is this  much discussion directed at it, but I think there are two simple  points thet everybody is touching on and is very well aware of but  are being overlooked.  And here they are in order.  We all agree that  steel is the strongest boatbuilding medium, that we have at the  moment realistically, and we all agree that welding is the strongest  way of joining a boat built of steel and if a Swain boat is nothing  more than these two all agreed upon facts what is the cause of so  much turmoil.    Two analogies to something we all can relate to. First some of us  who own boats but don't cruise extensively also happen to own cars  made of steel although, I'm sure some of you have fancy plastic  models, which travel at a lot higher rate of speed than any sailboat  with other cars, trucks, suvs, and what not traveling at high rates  of speed right towards us with a hull/body that is thinner than any  part of any steel boat, has far less framing which is also of a  smaller guage and how often do we stop to critize the methods  employed in building these high velocity death rides.   Second the thought process behind a Swain boat, where the strength of  the steel, agreed on by all of us as the strongest boatbuilding  medium, and the fact that it creates a continous compound curve which  is reinforced using longitudinal stringers,  can again be compared to  this everyday item.  Think of a car hood,roof or door for that matter  a fairly flat piece of steel that can be bent easily.  Now think of  what a Swain boat is built like, not the door or roof but those  compound curves found along the trunk to quarter panel curve or the  curve where the roof starts to curve to bend to meet the doort frame  when is the last time anyone dented this part of their car. In closing I pulled together a 36'bilge keeled hull with Brent and my  partner in 11 days and can't understand why there are still boats  being built by any other method especially considering the  designer/architect sails his boat across the Pacific yearly.  more  than most designers whose office  job only allows daysailing and  therefore have a considerable lack of the realities of what an  offshore cruising vessel needs.  Furthermore I cannot think that  Brent could ever sleep in his bunk soundly knowing that families are  relying on him and his boat to get them through the next storm.  Fair winds to everyone.   Greg|
676|675|2002-02-20 03:57:07|batsondbelfrey|Re: ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION|--- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" <WIJNANDA69@H...> wrote:  > Furthermore I cannot think that  > Brent could ever sleep in his bunk soundly knowing that families  > are relying on him and his boat to get them through the next storm.   I think you meant to add "unless he knew for certain, from his own  experience, that his building methods works" :-)  At least, that's  the impression I get from the rest of your posting.  Regards  Robert Biegler|
677|657|2002-02-20 08:40:59|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Engines|          Thought these engines might be of interest to someone (esp. East Coast or  European types). http://www.sabb.no/engelsk/lifeboats.htm <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen  Ditmore</font></i> |
678|664|2002-02-20 08:58:43|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cats|          Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult catamaran with the original  (Laser-like) sleeve rig.  The manufacturer subsequently changed to the  current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would have to buy now if I wanted  to race one design.  My understanding is that the multihull community  in general has concluded that rotating wing masts are superior to sleeves  because:   1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls too flat for the air to  remain attached.   2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is aerodynamically superior to a  triangular one.  (Note: the bigger the roach the more compression on the  battens, pushing them into the mast.  Having a Harken Batcar or similar at  the mast end of each batten keeps them from jamming.)   3. While free standing rigs have merit on some monohulls, multis have  such a wide shroud base that you might as well use it.   <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen  Ditmore</font></i>        -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> jim_cl  [mailto:jim_cl@...]<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05  PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats]  origami cats  G'day all!This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor    who is currently land bound but eager to build another boat and get away    again.It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so    many (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat.     Get away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer    and give us all an update on your origami progress.     Please.My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while    we get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more    crew (aka kids).  Have to be leaving in 2006.Anyway, here's a    few ideas that I will throw out to you all for constructive comments,    return abuse or whatever.  The ideas are based on about 35000 miles    of offshore cruising as a kid on my parents' 47' steel cutter (half a    circumnaviagation before I had to go to high school) and time around the    Caribbean on my own 30' steel sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and    along the Barrier Reef.  I liked the cat deliveries and I'm now    hooked on cats, but there were some shortcomings that have to be dealt    with (eg. wing deck slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability    etc)So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat.  Origami    or not, that is the question, my friends.  Some brief    notes:1.  50' LOA2.  25' BOA3.  5' individual    hull beam.4.  No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be    decked with timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough    seas.5.  Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance.  Wing    deck can be flush with top of each hull.6.  Very small, protected    "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards    and reefing lines.  Socialising in port will be on the central    deck.7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless    technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards?8.     Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation.  Fairly V-ed,    knife-shaped bow.9.  Flattish stern to minimise    pitching.10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the    waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum    cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow    sections to the two parts.  Will minimise wet surface area,    construction time and cost (less welding).11.  Small fixed keel and    skeg.  Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'.12  Integral    water tanks in the mini keels.13.  Lee board on the inner side of    each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings -    like an external centreboard.  (As a steel boat owner, I typically    just charge on until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean    without a depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the    waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other yachties and our    own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail    onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut    tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I    digress...)  I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger    board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of    minimal draft and being able to run aground.  Asthetically, it will    be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the    wing deck.  Comments welcome.14.  "Transom" hung rudder    which can kick up.  Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a    false stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding    steps.  Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond false stern to    enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder.15.  Direct    tiller steering.  Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse    control (or similar) that will move trim tabs.  Windvane    self-steering goes without saying.  Backed up by small electronic    autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control.16.  Propulsion via    an outboard in each hull.  We detest using the engine unless on a    delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we used 30 litres of fuel    for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the outboard on the    dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front    of skeg.  Lower opening of well to be covered with 1" rubber flap    that will close when outboard is raised and open when lowered.     Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.  Have to be able to easily take    one out for use on the dinghy.17.  Rig to be unstayed and    biplane.  Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom.  Various    pros and cons for both cases.  Will be unstayed because the    technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is    sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with    all the extra rigging.  Without all the normal rigging there is less    potential for failure (this is from a person who was 15 years old and at    the head of a 40' mast when a shroud snapped and was dumped along with the    mast into a retaining wall - various broken bones but that's another    story...:).   The rig will be biplane because it keeps the    centre of effort lower than having one central mast.  And    structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull    rather than just one on the wing deck.18.  Undecided on sails, as    to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise    disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a    "normal" mast in order to make it free standing).  Comments,    please.19.  A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and    hulls.  Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but    provides little wind resistance.  Solar panels to go on top, small    fireplace underneath with sandbox.  Drop down canvas sides around    perimeter for privacy at anchor.  Will be ugly but private in port    with the sides down.  And will sail like a bat out of hell with the    sides up, little windage, lee boards down.20.  6' headroom in    each hull.21.  No gas for cooking.  Kerosene stove and oven (you    might call it parafin depending on where you are from).These are    my somewhat unorthodox ideas.  Let me know what you think of this    crazy down-under sailor.  No comments about the tedious topic of    multihull versus mono, PLEASE.  Tell me something new.On another    topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor, I better have a    word with him about what he did or didn't teach me) is still sailing    about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts and having many    adventures in his travels about the globe.  Some of you may want to    read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and fitout at:http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html      Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible    in a boatyard.Jim.To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
679|664|2002-02-20 09:05:55|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: origami cats|          Note also: You can stay a "biplane" rig by staying to  the inside of each mast, forming an "X", and putting a compression strut  between them at the height of the hounds (where the shrouds attach to the mast,  i.e. the top of the "X"). <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></i>  <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen  Ditmore</font></i>      -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b>  Ditmore, Stephen [mailto:sditmore@...]<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,  February 20, 2002 8:58 AM<b>To:</b>  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] origami  cats     Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult catamaran with the original    (Laser-like) sleeve rig.  The manufacturer subsequently changed to the    current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would have to buy now if I wanted    to race one design.  My understanding is that the multihull    community in general has concluded that rotating wing masts are superior to    sleeves because:       1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls too flat for the air    to remain attached.       2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is aerodynamically superior to a    triangular one.  (Note: the bigger the roach the more compression on the    battens, pushing them into the mast.  Having a Harken Batcar or similar    at the mast end of each batten keeps them from jamming.)       3. While free standing rigs have merit on some monohulls, multis have    such a wide shroud base that you might as well use it.       <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen    Ditmore</font></i>                -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b>    jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@...]<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 17, 2002    10:05 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] origami cats   G'day all!This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor      who is currently land bound but eager to build another boat and get away      again.It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so      many (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat.       Get away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer      and give us all an update on your origami progress.       Please.My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages      while we get some money together, pay off the house and produce some      more crew (aka kids).  Have to be leaving in 2006.Anyway,      here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for constructive      comments, return abuse or whatever.  The ideas are based on about      35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my parents' 47' steel      cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to go to high school) and      time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel sloop and a few deliveries      to the Med and along the Barrier Reef.  I liked the cat deliveries      and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were some shortcomings that have      to be dealt with (eg. wing deck slamming, central mast clutter, poor      windward ability etc)So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium      cat.  Origami or not, that is the question, my friends.       Some brief notes:1.  50' LOA2.  25'      BOA3.  5' individual hull beam.4.  No superstructure on      the wing decks, which will be decked with timber planks to allow      "percolation" of waves during rough seas.5.  Minimum of 4' (pref.      5') of wind deck clearance.  Wing deck can be flush with top of      each hull.6.  Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull      sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing      lines.  Socialising in port will be on the central      deck.7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using      frameless technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in      afterwards?8.  Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve      flotation.  Fairly V-ed, knife-shaped bow.9.  Flattish      stern to minimise pitching.10.  Central 25' of each hull can be      semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard,      off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach      the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts.  Will      minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less      welding).11.  Small fixed keel and skeg.  Drawing no more than      3', preferably 2'.12  Integral water tanks in the mini      keels.13.  Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?)      which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external      centreboard.  (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on      until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a      depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the      waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other yachties and our      own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail      onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut      tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I      digress...)  I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger      board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of      minimal draft and being able to run aground.  Asthetically, it will      be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the      wing deck.  Comments welcome.14.  "Transom" hung rudder      which can kick up.  Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a      false stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding      steps.  Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond false stern to      enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder.15.  Direct      tiller steering.  Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse      control (or similar) that will move trim tabs.  Windvane      self-steering goes without saying.  Backed up by small electronic      autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control.16.  Propulsion      via an outboard in each hull.  We detest using the engine unless on      a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we used 30 litres of      fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the outboard on the      dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in      front of skeg.  Lower opening of well to be covered with 1" rubber      flap that will close when outboard is raised and open when      lowered.  Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.  Have to be able      to easily take one out for use on the dinghy.17.  Rig to be      unstayed and biplane.  Undecided whether to go for wishbone or      boom.  Various pros and cons for both cases.  Will be unstayed      because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that      is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast      with all the extra rigging.  Without all the normal rigging there      is less potential for failure (this is from a person who was 15 years      old and at the head of a 40' mast when a shroud snapped and was dumped      along with the mast into a retaining wall - various broken bones but      that's another story...:).   The rig will be biplane because      it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast.       And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each      hull rather than just one on the wing deck.18.  Undecided on      sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve      to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize      compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing).       Comments, please.19.  A large, aluminium bimini over the central      wing deck and hulls.  Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into      the tanks, but provides little wind resistance.  Solar panels to go      on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox.  Drop down canvas      sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor.  Will be ugly but      private in port with the sides down.  And will sail like a bat out      of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down.20.       6' headroom in each hull.21.  No gas for cooking.  Kerosene      stove and oven (you might call it parafin depending on where you are      from).These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas.  Let me know what      you think of this crazy down-under sailor.  No comments about the      tedious topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE.  Tell me something      new.On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing      instructor, I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't      teach me) is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel      Roberts and having many adventures in his travels about the globe.       Some of you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines      and fitout at:http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html        Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible      in a boatyard.Jim.  |
680|664|2002-02-20 16:41:27|Jim Phillips|Re: origami cats|Thanks for your comments, Stephen.    I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved, fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...?  The battens would tend to rule out the sleeve, one would think.  Anyone seen anything like this?  Jim.   --- "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@...> wrote: > Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult  > catamaran with the original > (Laser-like) sleeve rig.  The manufacturer > subsequently changed to the > current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would > have to buy now if I > wanted to race one design.  My understanding is that > the multihull community > in general has concluded that rotating wing masts > are superior to sleeves > because: >   > 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls > too flat for the air to > remain attached. >   > 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is > aerodynamically superior to a > triangular one.  (Note: the bigger the roach the > more compression on the > battens, pushing them into the mast.  Having a > Harken Batcar or similar at > the mast end of each batten keeps them from > jamming.) >   > 3. While free standing rigs have merit on some > monohulls, multis have such a > wide shroud base that you might as well use it. >   > Stephen Ditmore  >   >   >   > -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@...] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats >  >  >  > G'day all! >  > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is > currently land  > bound but eager to build another boat and get away > again. >  > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there > aren't so many  > (any?) from people who are actually building an > origami boat.  Get  > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down > at your computer  > and give us all an update on your origami progress.  > Please. >  > My next boat is currently in the initial planning > stages while we  > get some money together, pay off the house and > produce some more  > crew (aka kids).  Have to be leaving in 2006. >  > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to > you all for  > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever.  > The ideas are  > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a > kid on my  > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation > before I had to  > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on > my own 30' steel  > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the > Barrier Reef.  I  > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, > but there were  > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. > wing deck  > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward > ability etc) >  > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. >  Origami or  > not, that is the question, my friends.   >  > Some brief notes: >  > 1.  50' LOA > 2.  25' BOA > 3.  5' individual hull beam. > 4.  No superstructure on the wing decks, which will > be decked with  > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during > rough seas. > 5.  Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. >  Wing deck can  > be flush with top of each hull. > 6.  Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > sufficient for 2  > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines.  > Socialising in  > port will be on the central deck. > 7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded > using frameless  > technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in > afterwards? > 8.  Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > flotation.  Fairly V- > ed, knife-shaped bow. > 9.  Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > 10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > below the  > waterline in order to just buy a standard, > off-the-shelf, 5' diam  > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the > respective  > stern and bow sections to the two parts.  Will > minimise wet surface  > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > 11.  Small fixed keel and skeg.  Drawing no more > than 3', preferably  > 2'. > 12  Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13.  Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one > or two?) which  > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an > external  > centreboard.  (As a steel boat owner, I typically > just charge on  > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the > Caribbean without a  > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel > keel and the  > waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other > yachties and our  > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern > anchor and just sail  > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow > to a coconut  > tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I > digress...)  I  > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger > board, but want  > the performance of the lee board and the convenience > of minimal  > draft and being able to run aground.  Asthetically, > it will be ok as  > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, > under the wing  > deck.  Comments welcome. > 14.  "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up.  > Transom can actually  > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase > waterline length and  > provide steep boarding steps.  Rudder must stick out > an inch or so  > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim > tab on each  > rudder. > 15.  Direct tiller steering.  Also trim tab steering > thru use of a  > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move > trim tabs.   > Windvane self-steering goes without saying.  Backed > up by small  > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse > control. > 16.  Propulsion via an outboard in each hull.  We > detest using the  > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the > Caribbean and we  > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 > litres for the  > outboard on the dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in an > outboard well in  > each hull in front of skeg.  Lower opening of well > to be covered  > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is > raised and open  > when lowered.  Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.  > Have to be able  > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > 17.  Rig to be unstayed and biplane.  Undecided > whether to go for  > wishbone or boom.  Various pros and cons for both > cases.  Will be  > unstayed because the technology is already here to > have a carbon  > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, > and similarly  > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging.  > Without all the  > normal rigging there is less potential for failure > (this is from a  > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' > mast when a  > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast > into a retaining  > wall - various broken bones but that's another > story...:).   The rig  >   === message truncated ===   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com|
681|605|2002-02-20 17:37:47|rbyzitter2001|Re: metal suppliers|Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required.  I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came  out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed.  Cheers      --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >  >  >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:  >  >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding  suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc  coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
682|605|2002-02-20 19:00:46|brentswain38|Re: metal suppliers|There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at  http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797                                       Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. >  > I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came  > out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed.  Cheers >  >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > >  > >  > >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:  > >  > >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding  > suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc  > coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? > >  > >  > > --------------------------------- > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! > >  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
683|664|2002-02-20 19:10:22|brentswain38|Re: origami cats|I met  a friend who was sailing one of my 40 footers at Fanning  Island . I asked him what he thought of full batten sails and he  said " Battens suck , they tend to eat the sail with chafe and break  at the least opportune moments ". Another friend there sailing a  bristol cannel cutter was trying full length battens for the first  time with a sail made in New Zealand from a different sailmaker . I  asked him what he thought and he said basically the same thing . The  40 footer went ot New Zealand , then back to BC and the 30 footer  went thru the western Pacific, then back to Juan de Fuca. By the time  they got back , neither had any use for battens and both said they  would never have battens in a mainsail again.   I've been told that 80% of sail repairs are around batten pockets.   That was pretty well my experience many decades ago when I used to  have battens in my nmailsail.                                             Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., Jim Phillips <jim_cl@y...> wrote: > Thanks for your comments, Stephen.   >  > I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved, > fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...?  The > battens would tend to rule out the sleeve, one would > think.  Anyone seen anything like this? >  > Jim. >  >  --- "Ditmore, Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote: > > Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult > > catamaran with the original > > (Laser-like) sleeve rig.  The manufacturer > > subsequently changed to the > > current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would > > have to buy now if I > > wanted to race one design.  My understanding is that > > the multihull community > > in general has concluded that rotating wing masts > > are superior to sleeves > > because: > >   > > 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls > > too flat for the air to > > remain attached. > >   > > 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is > > aerodynamically superior to a > > triangular one.  (Note: the bigger the roach the > > more compression on the > > battens, pushing them into the mast.  Having a > > Harken Batcar or similar at > > the mast end of each batten keeps them from > > jamming.) > >   > > 3. While free standing rigs have merit on some > > monohulls, multis have such a > > wide shroud base that you might as well use it. > >   > > Stephen Ditmore  > >   > >   > >   > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats > >  > >  > >  > > G'day all! > >  > > This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is > > currently land  > > bound but eager to build another boat and get away > > again. > >  > > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there > > aren't so many  > > (any?) from people who are actually building an > > origami boat.  Get  > > away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down > > at your computer  > > and give us all an update on your origami progress.  > > Please. > >  > > My next boat is currently in the initial planning > > stages while we  > > get some money together, pay off the house and > > produce some more  > > crew (aka kids).  Have to be leaving in 2006. > >  > > Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to > > you all for  > > constructive comments, return abuse or whatever.  > > The ideas are  > > based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a > > kid on my  > > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation > > before I had to  > > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on > > my own 30' steel  > > sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the > > Barrier Reef.  I  > > liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, > > but there were  > > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. > > wing deck  > > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward > > ability etc) > >  > > So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. > >  Origami or  > > not, that is the question, my friends.   > >  > > Some brief notes: > >  > > 1.  50' LOA > > 2.  25' BOA > > 3.  5' individual hull beam. > > 4.  No superstructure on the wing decks, which will > > be decked with  > > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during > > rough seas. > > 5.  Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > >  Wing deck can  > > be flush with top of each hull. > > 6.  Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > > sufficient for 2  > > people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines.  > > Socialising in  > > port will be on the central deck. > > 7.  4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded > > using frameless  > > technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in > > afterwards? > > 8.  Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > > flotation.  Fairly V- > > ed, knife-shaped bow. > > 9.  Flattish stern to minimise pitching. > > 10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > > below the  > > waterline in order to just buy a standard, > > off-the-shelf, 5' diam  > > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the > > respective  > > stern and bow sections to the two parts.  Will > > minimise wet surface  > > area, construction time and cost (less welding). > > 11.  Small fixed keel and skeg.  Drawing no more > > than 3', preferably  > > 2'. > > 12  Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > > 13.  Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one > > or two?) which  > > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an > > external  > > centreboard.  (As a steel boat owner, I typically > > just charge on  > > until we crunch - 9 months last year in the > > Caribbean without a  > > depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel > > keel and the  > > waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other > > yachties and our  > > own amusement, we would often toss out a stern > > anchor and just sail  > > onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow > > to a coconut  > > tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I > > digress...)  I  > > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger > > board, but want  > > the performance of the lee board and the convenience > > of minimal  > > draft and being able to run aground.  Asthetically, > > it will be ok as  > > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, > > under the wing  > > deck.  Comments welcome. > > 14.  "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up.  > > Transom can actually  > > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase > > waterline length and  > > provide steep boarding steps.  Rudder must stick out > > an inch or so  > > beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim > > tab on each  > > rudder. > > 15.  Direct tiller steering.  Also trim tab steering > > thru use of a  > > mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move > > trim tabs.   > > Windvane self-steering goes without saying.  Backed > > up by small  > > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse > > control. > > 16.  Propulsion via an outboard in each hull.  We > > detest using the  > > engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the > > Caribbean and we  > > used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 > > litres for the  > > outboard on the dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in an > > outboard well in  > > each hull in front of skeg.  Lower opening of well > > to be covered  > > with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is > > raised and open  > > when lowered.  Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.  > > Have to be able  > > to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. > > 17.  Rig to be unstayed and biplane.  Undecided > > whether to go for  > > wishbone or boom.  Various pros and cons for both > > cases.  Will be  > > unstayed because the technology is already here to > > have a carbon  > > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, > > and similarly  > > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging.  > > Without all the  > > normal rigging there is less potential for failure > > (this is from a  > > person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' > > mast when a  > > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast > > into a retaining  > > wall - various broken bones but that's another > > story...:).   The rig  > >  > === message truncated ===  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com |
684|605|2002-02-20 22:41:19|Gary H. Lucas|Re: metal suppliers|          Some years ago I bought some steel plate for  building outriggers for a truck crane.  After a full day of welding I  was looking at one of the four beams I had fabricated and thought I saw a tiny  crack.  I picked up a hammer and tapped the plate fairly hard.  A  crack ran up nearly the entire 8 foot length, and a piece about 3 inches square  fell out!  Wouldn't it have been nice to have that holding a load 80 feet  in the air!  They replaced all the steel, but none of my  labor.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    brentswain38    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2002 7:00    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: metal    suppliers   There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at    http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797                                         Brent Swain--- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote:> Has anyone    recently got any pricing done on the materials required.> > I    just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came > out    at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed.  Cheers> > >    > > --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:> >    > > > >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: > >    > >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly    finding > suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and    zinc > coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest    area?> > > > > >    ---------------------------------> > Do You Yahoo!?> >    Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!> > > >    [Non-text portions of this message have been    removed]------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    ---------------------~-->Access Your PC from AnywhereIt's Easy.    It's Fast. - Free Downloadhttp://us.click.yahoo.com/lmECdA/6XkDAA/DIxGAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
685|685|2002-02-21 09:21:03|Ditmore, Stephen|full-batten mainsails|          With all due respect, I disagree with Brent on this point.  I  have no doubt that Brent's cruising experience exceeds mine, but there are full  batten advocates, such as Steve Dashew, who could match Brent mile for nautical  mile.  I agree that partial battens stress the sail at the forward ends of  the pockets.  That's the superiority of full battens, which keep the  mainsail from flogging excessively when luffing and thus improve its life  span and long-term shape holding.  They also help it stack nicely in  lazy jacks. <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></i>  <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen  Ditmore</font></i>     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b>  brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...]<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday,  February 20, 2002 7:10 PM<b>To:</b>  origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: origami  cats  I met  a friend who was sailing one of my 40 footers at    Fanning Island . I asked him what he thought of full batten sails and he    said " Battens suck , they tend to eat the sail with chafe and break    at the least opportune moments ". Another friend there sailing a    bristol cannel cutter was trying full length battens for the first    time with a sail made in New Zealand from a different sailmaker . I    asked him what he thought and he said basically the same thing . The    40 footer went ot New Zealand , then back to BC and the 30 footer went    thru the western Pacific, then back to Juan de Fuca. By the time they got    back , neither had any use for battens and both said they would never have    battens in a mainsail again.  I've been told that 80% of sail repairs    are around batten pockets.  That was pretty well my experience many    decades ago when I used to have battens in my    nmailsail.                                               Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Jim Phillips    <jim_cl@y...> wrote:> Thanks for your comments, Stephen.     > > I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved,>    fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...?  The> battens would    tend to rule out the sleeve, one would> think.  Anyone seen    anything like this?> > Jim.> >  --- "Ditmore,    Stephen" <sditmore@n...> wrote: >> Regarding #18 below, I own    a small Catapult> > catamaran with the original> >    (Laser-like) sleeve rig.  The manufacturer> > subsequently    changed to the> > current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I    would> > have to buy now if I> > wanted to race one    design.  My understanding is that> > the multihull    community> > in general has concluded that rotating wing    masts> > are superior to sleeves> > because:>    >  > > 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically    pulls> > too flat for the air to> > remain    attached.> >  > > 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail    is> > aerodynamically superior to a> > triangular    one.  (Note: the bigger the roach the> > more compression on    the> > battens, pushing them into the mast.  Having a>    > Harken Batcar or similar at> > the mast end of each batten    keeps them from> > jamming.)> >  > > 3.    While free standing rigs have merit on some> > monohulls, multis    have such a> > wide shroud base that you might as well use    it.> >  > > Stephen Ditmore > >     > >  > >  > > -----Original    Message-----> > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...]> > Sent:    Sunday, February 17, 2002 10:05 PM> > To: origamiboats@y...>    > Subject: [origamiboats] origami cats> > > > >    > > > G'day all!> > > > This is a quick note    from an Aussie sailor who is> > currently land > > bound    but eager to build another boat and get away> > again.> >    > > It's interesting to read all your emails, but there> >    aren't so many > > (any?) from people who are actually building    an> > origami boat.  Get > > away from the boatyard    for an hour or two, sit down> > at your computer > > and    give us all an update on your origami progress. > > Please.>    > > > My next boat is currently in the initial planning>    > stages while we > > get some money together, pay off the house    and> > produce some more > > crew (aka kids).  Have    to be leaving in 2006.> > > > Anyway, here's a few ideas    that I will throw out to> > you all for > > constructive    comments, return abuse or whatever. > > The ideas are > >    based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a> > kid on my    > > parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation> >    before I had to > > go to high school) and time around the Caribbean    on> > my own 30' steel > > sloop and a few deliveries to    the Med and along the> > Barrier Reef.  I > > liked    the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats,> > but there were    > > some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg.> >    wing deck > > slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward>    > ability etc)> > > > So, here we go with the next    boat, an aluminium cat.> >  Origami or > > not, that    is the question, my friends.  > > > > Some brief    notes:> > > > 1.  50' LOA> > 2.  25'    BOA> > 3.  5' individual hull beam.> > 4.  No    superstructure on the wing decks, which will> > be decked with    > > timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during>    > rough seas.> > 5.  Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck    clearance.> >  Wing deck can > > be flush with top of    each hull.> > 6.  Very small, protected "cockpit" in each    hull> > sufficient for 2 > > people with all sheets,    halyards and reefing lines. > > Socialising in > > port    will be on the central deck.> > 7.  4 mm alum plate to be    NC-cut and then welded> > using frameless > >    technique.  If necessary, bulkheads go in> >    afterwards?> > 8.  Overhung bow to ensure sufficient    reserve> > flotation.  Fairly V-> > ed, knife-shaped    bow.> > 9.  Flattish stern to minimise pitching.> >    10.  Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular> > below the    > > waterline in order to just buy a standard,> >    off-the-shelf, 5' diam > > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then    attach the> > respective > > stern and bow sections to the    two parts.  Will> > minimise wet surface > > area,    construction time and cost (less welding).> > 11.  Small fixed    keel and skeg.  Drawing no more> > than 3', preferably >    > 2'.> > 12  Integral water tanks in the mini keels.>    > 13.  Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one> > or    two?) which > > will kick up during unexpected groundings - like    an> > external > > centreboard.  (As a steel boat    owner, I typically> > just charge on > > until we crunch -    9 months last year in the> > Caribbean without a > > depth    sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel> > keel and the >    > waters were usually clear.  To the shock of other> >    yachties and our > > own amusement, we would often toss out a    stern> > anchor and just sail > > onto the beach in the    Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow> > to a coconut > >    tree.  Saved putting the dinghy in the water.  But I> >    digress...)  I > > don't want the hassles of a centreboard or    dagger> > board, but want > > the performance of the lee    board and the convenience> > of minimal > > draft and    being able to run aground.  Asthetically,> > it will be ok as    > > it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls,>    > under the wing > > deck.  Comments welcome.> >    14.  "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. > > Transom can    actually > > be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase>    > waterline length and > > provide steep boarding steps.     Rudder must stick out> > an inch or so > > beyond false    stern to enable installation of a trim> > tab on each > >    rudder.> > 15.  Direct tiller steering.  Also trim tab    steering> > thru use of a > > mobile Morse control (or    similar) that will move> > trim tabs.  > > Windvane    self-steering goes without saying.  Backed> > up by small    > > electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse>    > control.> > 16.  Propulsion via an outboard in each    hull.  We> > detest using the > > engine unless on a    delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the> > Caribbean and we > >    used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40> > litres for    the > > outboard on the dinghy).  Ideally a 9.9 HP in    an> > outboard well in > > each hull in front of    skeg.  Lower opening of well> > to be covered > >    with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is> > raised and    open > > when lowered.  Longshaft, low RPM and large prop.    > > Have to be able > > to easily take one out for use on    the dinghy.> > 17.  Rig to be unstayed and biplane.     Undecided> > whether to go for > > wishbone or boom.     Various pros and cons for both> > cases.  Will be > >    unstayed because the technology is already here to> > have a carbon    > > fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong,> >    and similarly > > priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging.    > > Without all the > > normal rigging there is less    potential for failure> > (this is from a > > person who    was 15 years old and at the head of a 40'> > mast when a >    > shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast> > into a    retaining > > wall - various broken bones but that's another>    > story...:).   The rig > > > === message    truncated === > >    __________________________________________________> Do You    Yahoo!?> Everything you'll ever need on one web page> from News    and Sport to Email and Music Charts> http://uk.my.yahoo.comTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
686|605|2002-02-21 10:39:42|jalborey|Re: metal suppliers|More information at the "Faulty Aluminum Plate" thread in the Metal  Boats Society forum (http://www.metalboatsociety.com)   > There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at  > http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797 >                                       Brent Swain |
687|605|2002-02-21 23:50:25|Paul Liebenberg|Re: metal suppliers|          Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It  would be nice to have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different  geographic  areas.                             Paul L     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    rbyzitter2001    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:37    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: metal    suppliers   Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials    required.I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it    came out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed.     Cheers--- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:>    > >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >    >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding    suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc    coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest    area?> > > ---------------------------------> Do    You Yahoo!?> Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!>    > [Non-text portions of this message have been  removed]To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
688|605|2002-02-22 10:01:35|Rick Byzitter|Re: metal suppliers|          <strong><font face="Arial">I'm in the Vancouver B.C. area, so those were  Canadian $s.  The supplier was Dominion steel,  I buy a lot of  "trailer" worth of steel a year so my pricing may be better than "Joe the  homeowner's" .</font></strong>     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Paul Liebenberg       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:36    PM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal    suppliers      Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It    would be nice to have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different    geographic    areas.                               Paul L        ----- Original Message -----      <b>From:</b>      rbyzitter2001      <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com           <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:37      PM     <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: metal      suppliers     Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials      required.I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers,      it came out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed.       Cheers--- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:>      > >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >      >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding      suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc      coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest      area?> > > ---------------------------------> Do      You Yahoo!?> Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo!      Greetings!> > [Non-text portions of this message have been      removed]To Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service. To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
689|531|2002-02-22 11:20:19|rbyzitter2001|Re: engines|Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio  and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be interested  in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given engine  RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my sister is  married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. Cheers.    --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  Excellent  > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to  the  > Charlottes and back. >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil  > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts  and  > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it.  > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and  valve. >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for  a  > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch into  the  > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four  legs  > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement  made  > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow  welded  > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with  a  > pipe plug. >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  impossible  > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the  > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple  on  > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top  of  > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can  pour  > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the  > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full  > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around  at  > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the  > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch  > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat  > before installing an engine next time. >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've  > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless  wet  > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point  > where you  inject water in . >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much  from  > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the  success  > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is  very  >  easy to build .  >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet  at  > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel  > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years  > ago"  >                             Brent Swain >  >  >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.  > >  > >  > >  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
690|690|2002-02-22 13:39:55|Ditmore, Stephen|self steering equipment|            Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning  self-steering equipment? The search I did yielded some interesting  info. http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></i>  <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen  </font></i>|
691|690|2002-02-22 13:58:04|Rick Byzitter|Re: self steering equipment|          <strong><font face="Arial">This may be of intere.</font></strong> <strong><font face="Arial">Cheers</font></strong> <strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong>  <strong><font face="Arial"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.capehorn.com">http://www.capehorn.com</a></font></strong>     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Ditmore,    Stephen    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 22, 2002 10:38    AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] self steering    equipment      Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning    self-steering equipment?   The search I did yielded some interesting    info.   http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering   <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></i>    <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen    </font></i>To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
692|690|2002-02-22 14:27:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: self steering equipment|          The best book I have found on the subject is  Self-Steering for Sailboats by Gerard Dijkstra published by Sail Books, Inc. in  1979.  A little dated but excellent information about how and why they  work.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Ditmore,    Stephen    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 22, 2002 1:38    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] self steering    equipment      Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning    self-steering equipment?   The search I did yielded some interesting    info.   http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering   <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></i>    <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen    </font></i>To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
693|690|2002-02-22 16:59:28|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: self steering equipment|          The Cape Horn website states that their system  works downwind;  are there self-steering systems which don't?      Brent gives instructions in his book on building  your own self-steering from stainless rod and other materials, and I've seen his  system on several of his designs.  His system uses a trim-tab on the  rudder, so there is very low stress to the machine itself.  I recall him  saying that he also hooked up his autohelm 800 to the lever on the trim tab, so  that the autopilot has very little work to do, extending the battery life and  the working life of the autopilot itself.  Seems to make good sense to me,  and I like the fact that if you built it yourself, then you can repair it  yourself, anywhere, anytime.      Alex Christie.|
694|531|2002-02-22 18:53:02|brentswain38|Re: engines|I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when the  dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main  bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a hurth  150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through the  hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in the  dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the  dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it will  do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth 100.   A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or  under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a tiny  bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time.   When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change  the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes .   I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest that  will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room.   I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon.   Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin.                     Brent Swain      --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio  > and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be interested  > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given  engine  > RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my sister is  > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > Cheers.  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  > Excellent  > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to  > the  > > Charlottes and back. > >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the  oil  > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts  > and  > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on  it.  > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and  > valve. > >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done  for  > a  > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch into  > the  > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four  > legs  > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement  > made  > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow  > welded  > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with  > a  > > pipe plug. > >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  > impossible  > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the  > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe  nipple  > on  > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top  > of  > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can  > pour  > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out  the  > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full  > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling  around  > at  > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the  > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to  catch  > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat  > > before installing an engine next time. > >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and  I've  > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless  > wet  > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point  > > where you  inject water in . > >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much  > from  > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the  > success  > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is  > very  > >  easy to build .  > >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet  > at  > > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel  > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years  > > ago"  > >                             Brent Swain > >  > >  > >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > > >  > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > > Service.  > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
695|605|2002-02-22 19:58:34|ravensoars2001|Re: metal suppliers|Steel suppliers:  I have used Dominion Steel and AJ Forsyth in  Vancouver BC.  Both suppliers use the same service to have plate  wheel-abraded and primed with inorganic zinc.  You must specify the  paint when you order.  All the materials for a Swain 36' were  available.  The 10 ga plate came out of wheel-abrading flat and  fair.  I am told that this is the best price on steel for 15 years. Used metal is available from Usenco in Surrey BC.  rt    -- In origamiboats@y..., "Paul Liebenberg" <Zelda@i...> wrote:  > Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It would be nice to   have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different  geographic areas.                            Paul L  >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: rbyzitter2001  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 2:37 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers >  >  >   Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials   required.  >  >   I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it   came   >   out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed.  Cheers >  >  >  >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >   >  >   >  >   >   robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote:  >   >  >   >  I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding  >   suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and   zinc   >   coated.  How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? >   >  >   >  >   > --------------------------------- >   > Do You Yahoo!? >   > Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! >   >  >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >  >  >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  >               ADVERTISEMENT >               >         >         >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-  unsubscribe@y...   >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of   Service.|
696|690|2002-02-22 20:07:31|peter thompson|Re: self steering equipment|          There are some more useful links at: http://www.boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/links/search.cgi?query=self+steering   cheers, peter --~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~peter  thompson                                         peter@...the  BoatBuilding.Community                          http://boatbuilding.com/"when the  boat reaches midstream, it is too late to mend the leaks."Chinese  proverb  |
697|531|2002-02-22 20:22:07|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth  transmisions.  Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic had  to replace his discs after 1500 hrs.  I have an opotunity to pick up  a used Borg Warner and rebuild it.  I like this idea since it  provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot  less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc.  I then have the option to buy  extra parts that appear to wear more for spares.  I am going to try  out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine  compartment.  Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking a  stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange.  rt    --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: >  I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when  the  > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main  > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a  hurth  > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through  the  > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in  the  > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the  > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it  will  > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth  100. >   A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or  > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a  tiny  > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. >   When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change  > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . >   I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest  that  > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. >   I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. >   Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. >                     Brent Swain   >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission,  ratio  > > and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be  interested  > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given  > engine  > > RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my sister  is  > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > Cheers.  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  wrote: > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  > > Excellent  > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips  to  > > the  > > > Charlottes and back. > > >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the  > oil  > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the  mounts  > > and  > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on  > it.  > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and  > > valve. > > >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done  > for  > > a  > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch  into  > > the  > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by  four  > > legs  > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement  > > made  > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow  > > welded  > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged  with  > > a  > > > pipe plug. > > >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  > > impossible  > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of  the  > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe  > nipple  > > on  > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the  top  > > of  > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I  can  > > pour  > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out  > the  > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a  full  > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling  > around  > > at  > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the  > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to  > catch  > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the  bat  > > > before installing an engine next time. > > >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and  > I've  > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that  stainless  > > wet  > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the  point  > > > where you  inject water in . > > >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much  > > from  > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the  > > success  > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold  is  > > very  > > >  easy to build .  > > >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the  internet  > > at  > > > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel  > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business  years  > > > ago"  > > >                             Brent Swain > > >  > > >  > > >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > > > >  > > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > > > Service.  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
698|690|2002-02-24 04:23:59|Richard Payne|Re: self steering equipment|Two excellent wind-vane books: " Wind-Vane Self Steering, theory, principles and practice" by Bill Belcher. Published by CAPTAIN TEACH PRESS, Auckland New Zealand. 1997 . ISBN 1-887197-00-9 and " Self-Steering for Sailing Craft " by John S. Letcher, Jr. Published by INTERNATIONAL MARINE PUBLISHING COMPANY, CAMDEN, MAINE. Both books contain an excellent balance of theory and practical orientation and are all you'll need if you wish to design and construct a rig. I ended up using a paddle on the Sayes Rig  principle, coupled to a horizontal axis vane and it has proven robust and accurate. There is nothing more fascinating than sitting aft and watching one of these things work for you - it is almost supernatural! Regards, Richard Payne.|
699|34|2002-02-24 13:19:31|ravensoars2001|Re: Swain hull analysis -- how stiff is this hull|In vivo test:  heavy west coast rains here caused some softening of  the ground where I am building a 36' origami hull.  We decided it  advisable to level the hull thwartships.  My son and I were jacking  up the hull and adjusting the stbd sheerlegs when he noticed that the  hull was supported on only 3 points.  I decided to take comparitive  measurements at 3 stations.  As far as I can tell, the torsional  rigidity of the shell without bulkheads or any other framing is not  measurable with a tape that goes down to 1/16th".  By comparison,  when I think about some of the flexing I've seen on some boats at sea  and in yards--this builds confidence.  rt    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <ravencoast@t...>  wrote:  > Hello All, >  > I think Jeff has brought up some valid points on the issue of   heavier  > displacement vessels versus light displacement. His points are in   keeping  > with a larger ongoing debate in cruising circles everywhere and   should  > provide an excellent touchstone for those who do not find that > medium-diplacement Swain hulls fit their ideal. It sounds like Jeff   is very  > happy and confident with his choice of vessel (what is the design   name and  > who is the author of the design, Jeff? I am intrigued), and I am   sure it  > will serve him well. I think it clearly demonstrates that there is   lots of  > room for personal choices to be made in this very subjective arena. >  > Further to this, I do believe there are many light displacement   cruisers  > worth looking at which combine speed, comfort and safety to the   best of  > their ability. This kind of boat is making itself known > in the world, but often in forms not available to the man or woman   with  > shallow pockets. Again, Dudley Dix's work might offer something   economical  > to build that really works, I don't completely know. Amor Marine > http://members.tripod.com/fredjamor/ > has created a 39' 12,000 lb disp. cruiser that has been designed to   have  > positive bouyancy and a liveable interior in > the event of holing, It is reported to be able to attain 13 knots   under  > sail. I have been on the boat myself, and was very impressed with   it, enough  > to be tempted to build one! >  > Is the Swain hull considered to be a medium-displacement hull, or is > it a heavy displacement hull? Most would associate heavy   displacement with  > the Steel Roberts Spray hulls, whereas the Swain hull would be   considered  > more of a medium-displacement, don't you think? With its fin keel   (or keels  > in the case of the bilge keeler) and skeg mounted rudder, the hull   cannot be  > put in the same category of a Tahiti Ketch, or a Spray, by any   stretch of  > the imagination. I would say that it is a moderate displament hull. >  > At this point, theoretical analysis of the Swain hull is elusive   because the  > only way to do so is by looking at the digital photos (with their   parallax  > errors) or actually seeing one in person. Ideally one should have a   set of  > lines for the average Swain hull to provide more serious analysis   of its  > potential performance compared to other boats, but these boats are   not built  > to lines per se, only patterns (one of the reasons they are fast to   build).  > Of course, being humans, even if we had a set of lines to look at,   we could  > still disagree on how those lines may translate into reality! The   best  > analysis we have now is through the actual experiences of the   people that  > own them, subjective as that may > be. It is good enough for many potential builders of this boat   type, and  > many for many others of other boat types. >  > I think we've established the fact that these hulls are not > light displacement by any stretch of the imagination, but neither   are they  > extremely heavy.  I do believe that for a steel boat, these boats   function  > very well given some of the constraints imposed by the technique   with which  > they are built. Judging by the numbers built, and their continued   popularity  > on this coast, most owners, in return for the gift of undertaking   the  > blue-water life, have willingly accepted any concessions to speed   that the  > building technique imposes. I have not heard of anyone finding that   the  > hulls rolled excessively. It may be telling that even after long   cruises,  > the owners hang onto their boats for a > long time. When a boat gives me grief, or appears to present a   liability in  > terms of my continued existence, I get rid of it! >  > On the issue of heavier plating vs frames: There is no area on the   hull  > of Brent's boats that has large areas of unsupported plate, as   there are  > many closely spaced longitudinal members (fore and aft) made of   angle  >  iron spaced about 1 foot (owners please correct me the   measurements if  > need), or so apart. These stringers run the full length of the boat   in most  > cases, though it is said to be unneccessary in the extreme ends of   the  > vessel where the tighter conic shape and stressed-skin provides all   the  > stiffness desired. Many owners run the stringers up there anyway,   which is  > their choice. >  > The hulls are self-fairing as they are built, by the way, and   easier than  > you'd think to achieve symmetry. Brent would know more about   explaining this  > than myself, and I'll leave it to him. >  > Perhaps "frameless" is a misnomer for this type, as it gives a false > impression that the plate is bare and unsupported on the inside,   which it is  > not. The evenly spaced stringers plus the slightly thicker skin   should  > fulfill equivalent stiffening that transverse frames would, and   would not  > allow a tear in the hull to "work" beyond itself, and I believe   this has  > been proven by hulls which have seen extreme service. Maybe we   should start  > calling them "longitudinally framed steel boats" to avoid confusion! >  > Cheers, >  > Alex Christie |
700|700|2002-02-27 15:47:17|rbyzitter2001|Bartering|I have noticed that we do touch upon such topics as cost.  Has anyone  thought about or have "we" ever bartered via all the contacts we make  through this group?  Thoughts come to mind such as, Maybe I can  purchase steel at a better rate than......or, I have a bunch of  marine diesels lying about. Or I don't want to weld up a hull, but  I'd like to barter one for...... Oh well just a thought.  Cheers|
701|531|2002-02-27 19:55:55|rbyzitter2001|Re: engines|The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical  transmission.  The problem in the past has been it being overrated by  manufactures.  That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150 or  a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler would  aid transmission life.  The hurth does not have a forced lube system  but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and  cools through heat transfer.  The B&W is also a very good hydraulic  transmission.  Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable.  I have  sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. Cheers.      --- In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth  > transmisions.  Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic  had  > to replace his discs after 1500 hrs.  I have an opotunity to pick  up  > a used Borg Warner and rebuild it.  I like this idea since it  > provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot  > less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc.  I then have the option to buy  > extra parts that appear to wear more for spares.  I am going to try  > out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine  > compartment.  Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking  a  > stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange.  rt >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > >  I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter  when  > the  > > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main  > > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a  > hurth  > > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire  through  > the  > > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in  > the  > > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the  > > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it  > will  > > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth  > 100. > >   A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side  or  > > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a  > tiny  > > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every  time. > >   When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to  change  > > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > >   I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest  > that  > > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had  room. > >   I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > >   Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > >                     Brent Swain   > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission,  > ratio  > > > and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be  > interested  > > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given  > > engine  > > > RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my  sister  > is  > > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > > Cheers.  > > >  > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  > wrote: > > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  > > > Excellent  > > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several  trips  > to  > > > the  > > > > Charlottes and back. > > > >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining  the  > > oil  > > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the  > mounts  > > > and  > > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve  on  > > it.  > > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow  and  > > > valve. > > > >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had  done  > > for  > > > a  > > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch  > into  > > > the  > > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by  > four  > > > legs  > > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The  arrangement  > > > made  > > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread  elbow  > > > welded  > > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged  > with  > > > a  > > > > pipe plug. > > > >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  > > > impossible  > > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side  of  > the  > > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe  > > nipple  > > > on  > > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the  > top  > > > of  > > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I  > can  > > > pour  > > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running  out  > > the  > > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a  > full  > > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling  > > around  > > > at  > > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on  the  > > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to  > > catch  > > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off  the  > bat  > > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now  and  > > I've  > > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that  > stainless  > > > wet  > > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the  > point  > > > > where you  inject water in . > > > >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too  much  > > > from  > > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the  > > > success  > > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold  > is  > > > very  > > > >  easy to build .  > > > >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the  > internet  > > > at  > > > > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for  keel  > > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business  > years  > > > > ago"  > > > >                             Brent Swain > > > >  > > > >  > > > >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > > > > >  > > > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms  of  > > > > Service.  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
702|531|2002-02-27 20:30:05|ravensoars2001|Re: engines|Thank you, this helps build a broader picture of how to approach  auxilliary power in terms of individual components. Are you going to  start building in steel?  What size, what design?  Do you have any  materials set aside yet.  I would recommend starting with stuff like  lead as soon as posible.  I am always on the look out for stainless  pipe, pipe for sheerlegs, plate for engine beds, stainless plate for  mast tabernacle etc.  Had i started earlier i would have had the  ballast poured and sealed in by now.  As it is i am still doing the  rounds of the tire shops looking for wheel wheights etc.  Anyone have  a line on free spent uranium?  Dumpsters around metal shops have vast  potential for all sorts of useful pieces.  Appreciate the  transmission tips.  rt     --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical  > transmission.  The problem in the past has been it being overrated  by  > manufactures.  That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150  or  > a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler  would  > aid transmission life.  The hurth does not have a forced lube  system  > but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and  > cools through heat transfer.  The B&W is also a very good hydraulic  > transmission.  Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable.  I  have  > sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. > Cheers.    >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > > Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with  Hurth  > > transmisions.  Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic  > had  > > to replace his discs after 1500 hrs.  I have an opotunity to pick  > up  > > a used Borg Warner and rebuild it.  I like this idea since it  > > provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a  lot  > > less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc.  I then have the option to  buy  > > extra parts that appear to wear more for spares.  I am going to  try  > > out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine  > > compartment.  Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and  reworking  > a  > > stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange.  rt > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  wrote: > > >  I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter  > when  > > the  > > > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main  > > > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have  a  > > hurth  > > > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire  > through  > > the  > > > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole  in  > > the  > > > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making  the  > > > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate,  it  > > will  > > > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a  hurth  > > 100. > > >   A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small  side  > or  > > > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a  > > tiny  > > > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every  > time. > > >   When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to  > change  > > > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > > >   I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the  biggest  > > that  > > > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had  > room. > > >   I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > > >   Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > > >                     Brent Swain   > > >  > > >  > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>  wrote: > > > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission,  > > ratio  > > > > and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be  > > interested  > > > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a  given  > > > engine  > > > > RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my  > sister  > > is  > > > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > > > Cheers.  > > > >  > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  > > wrote: > > > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  > > > > Excellent  > > > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several  > trips  > > to  > > > > the  > > > > > Charlottes and back. > > > > >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining  > the  > > > oil  > > > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the  > > mounts  > > > > and  > > > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball  valve  > on  > > > it.  > > > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow  > and  > > > > valve. > > > > >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had  > done  > > > for  > > > > a  > > > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an  inch  > > into  > > > > the  > > > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by  > > four  > > > > legs  > > > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The  > arrangement  > > > > made  > > > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > > >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread  > elbow  > > > > welded  > > > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and  plugged  > > with  > > > > a  > > > > > pipe plug. > > > > >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  > > > > impossible  > > > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side  > of  > > the  > > > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch  pipe  > > > nipple  > > > > on  > > > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with  the  > > top  > > > > of  > > > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way  I  > > can  > > > > pour  > > > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running  > out  > > > the  > > > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have  a  > > full  > > > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm  rolling  > > > around  > > > > at  > > > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on  > the  > > > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it  to  > > > catch  > > > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off  > the  > > bat  > > > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > > >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now  > and  > > > I've  > > > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that  > > stainless  > > > > wet  > > > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the  > > point  > > > > > where you  inject water in . > > > > >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too  > much  > > > > from  > > > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given  the  > > > > success  > > > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled  manifold  > > is  > > > > very  > > > > >  easy to build .  > > > > >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the  > > internet  > > > > at  > > > > > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for  > keel  > > > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of  business  > > years  > > > > > ago"  > > > > >                             Brent Swain > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > > > > > >  > > > > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms  > of  > > > > > Service.  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
703|703|2002-02-28 17:17:56|edward_stoneuk|Daihatsu CLMD25 Marine Diesel|Hi, Does anyone have any information on the Daihatsu CLMD25 1 litre  marine diesel.  I have bought one that was salvaged from the lifeboat  of a wrecked freighter and cannot find anything about the model on  the web even though I have emailed the Daihatsu Diesel.  I would be  especially interested to find out if it is based on the Daihatsu  Charade engine. Regards to you all, Ted stone|
704|704|2002-03-01 01:21:13|kayaker_john|Free Labour|Could you do with a little help?  My vacation is April 1 to  April 14.  During this time I would like to help someone who is  working on a Brent Swain designed boat.  My preference would be to  help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the  hull   (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc.  (3)  help with engine installation.   The interior woodwork is not on my  wish list at this time.  Accomodation and food would be taken care of  by me.  You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you!   Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be  acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it  would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland.  My first  welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so  basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher".  I would "go  for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that.       If you  might want any help, during that time, please email me:     jcholdal@...         Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's  boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water!   You  would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you  wished!!            Thanks,            John Holdal|
705|704|2002-03-01 11:08:18|rbyzitter2001|Re: Free Labour|Had I had my hull on underway, I would of greatly appreciated your  offer.  And taken you up on it.    -- In origamiboats@y..., "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...> wrote:  >      Could you do with a little help?  My vacation is April 1 to  > April 14.  During this time I would like to help someone who is  > working on a Brent Swain designed boat.  My preference would be to  > help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the  > hull   (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc.    (3)   > help with engine installation.   The interior woodwork is not on my  > wish list at this time.  Accomodation and food would be taken care   of   > by me.  You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you!   > Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be  > acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it  > would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland.  My   first   > welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so  > basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher".  I would "go  > for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that.       If you  > might want any help, during that time, please email me:     > jcholdal@s...         Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's  > boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water!   You  > would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you  > wished!!            Thanks,            John Holdal |
706|690|2002-03-02 12:52:57|pvanderwaart|Re: self steering equipment|> The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind;  are   there self-steering systems which don't?    It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a  couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less  which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in  balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change  quite a lot with changes in the wind.  Peter|
707|704|2002-03-02 14:03:01|johm gorham|Re: Free Labour|cANNOT MAKE IT...lAT LAT121 North 38West   <b><i>kayaker_john <jcholdal@...></i></b> wrote:        Could you do with a little help?  My vacation is April 1 to April 14.  During this time I would like to help someone who is working on a Brent Swain designed boat.  My preference would be to help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the hull   (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc.  (3) help with engine installation.   The interior woodwork is not on my wish list at this time.  Accomodation and food would be taken care of by me.  You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you!  Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland.  My first welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher".  I would "go for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that.       If you might want any help, during that time, please email me:    jcholdal@...         Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water!   You would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you wished!!            Thanks,            John HoldalTo Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. <b>Do You Yahoo!?</b> Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball |
708|690|2002-03-02 15:11:43|sv_simplicity|Re: self steering equipment|A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained  brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing  mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and  that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess.  I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The more  things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is  easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to  the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low  apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest  performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears.  One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all  EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come to  mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own.  Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its  the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you  are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your self- steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary  inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John  Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent  discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems.  Al    --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind;   are  > there self-steering systems which don't?   >  > It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a  > couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less  > which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in  > balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change  > quite a lot with changes in the wind. >  > Peter |
709|690|2002-03-02 19:32:09|brentswain38|Re: self steering equipment|I  used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first  boat.   The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of  yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. Whilre it may  be possible to get it to work better on a well balanced boat, every  time the wind changes direction or strength you have to re-invent the  whole system.With a wind vane. al you do is change the latch a bit.  My vertcally axised trimtab system steers wel downwind anytime  there's enough wind to move the boat    --- In origamiboats@y..., "sv_simplicity" <sv_simplicity@y...> wrote: >  > A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained  > brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing  > mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and  > that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess. >  > I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The  more  > things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is  > easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to  > the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low  > apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest  > performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears. >  > One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all  > EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come  to  > mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own. >  > Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its  > the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you  > are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your  self- > steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary  > inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John  > Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent  > discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems. >  > Al >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > > > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind;   > are  > > there self-steering systems which don't?   > >  > > It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a  > > couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is  less  > > which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in  > > balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can  change  > > quite a lot with changes in the wind. > >  > > Peter |
710|690|2002-03-02 19:32:11|brentswain38|Re: self steering equipment|I  used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first  boat.   The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of  yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. Whilre it may  be possible to get it to work better on a well balanced boat, every  time the wind changes direction or strength you have to re-invent the  whole system.With a wind vane. al you do is change the latch a bit.  My vertcally axised trimtab system steers wel downwind anytime  there's enough wind to move the boat    --- In origamiboats@y..., "sv_simplicity" <sv_simplicity@y...> wrote: >  > A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained  > brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing  > mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and  > that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess. >  > I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The  more  > things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is  > easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to  > the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low  > apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest  > performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears. >  > One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all  > EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come  to  > mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own. >  > Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its  > the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you  > are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your  self- > steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary  > inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John  > Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent  > discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems. >  > Al >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "pvanderwaart" <pvanderw@o...> wrote: > > > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind;   > are  > > there self-steering systems which don't?   > >  > > It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a  > > couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is  less  > > which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in  > > balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can  change  > > quite a lot with changes in the wind. > >  > > Peter |
711|690|2002-03-04 10:30:58|Michael Casling|Re: self steering equipment|          Brent wrote:   I  used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first  boat.  The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's  elements of yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean.      I have a copy of that book and find it a good reference guide,  but the information he has on rudders is enough to confuse me. They were still  promoting the opinion that the rudder should be attached to the back of a fin  keel and that a boat can not steer straight unless a skeg is in front of the  rudder. I have sailed on boats with fin keels and transom hung rudders, no skeg,  that go perfectly straight upwind and down.   Michael Casling  Tanzer 8.5      caslingm@...|
712|690|2002-03-05 22:33:51|sv_simplicity|Re: self steering equipment|Sheet-to-tiller self steering can work over a wide range of wind  strengths. The trick is having the correct tension on the elastic  (see Letcher's book).  I agree that windvanes are easier to adjust for course changes. But  if you don't have that you get by with a sheet-to-tiller system. You  can even make up a portable kit to take on any boat you sail. If you  use the mainsail or small steering jib on an inner forestay and run  the sheet along the windward side to the tiller, it will work from  close hauled to broad reach with a minimum of re-adjustment after a  wind change.  The hardest point of sail to setup is dead downwind. Then you have to  rig up twin headsails or do what Slocum did on Spray. That is easing  the main all the way out and sheeting the jib hard in to the center  of the boat. The boat will try to head up away from the main but the  jib forces it back. It works better if the jib is on a long bowsprit  like Spray had. As a matter of fact, Slocum lengthened Spray's  bowsprit during his round the world voyage just for that purpose. I  tried this method, without the sprit, on a 22 ft. fractionally rigged  day sailer and it still worked. I admit that this was on smooth water  in moderate wind but it shows promise (don't forget the vang!). Gaff  rigs have larger mainsails that help going downwind; a marconi sloop  might be under-powered in lighter winds.  Regardless of what you use, I think sheet-to-tiller skills are good  to know if you ever find yourself on a shorthanded boat with a broken  wind vane.  Al.|
713|690|2002-03-06 04:05:46|brentswain38|Re: self steering equipment|The boat was almost impossible to steer by hand downwind in strong  winds. When I got to New Zealand , I pulled the rudder off the back of  the keel and put a steel rudder on a steel skeg 6 feet behind the  original rudder, doubling it's distance from the centre of the keel.  The balance upwind was virtually unchanged , but downwind it was an  entirely different boat , extremely docile. Because of the seriously  assymetrical hull and lean bows-wide stern quarters ,the boat was  unbalanced and had no directional stability of it's own.  With the  rudder at the stern where it belongs,however , I was able to finally  get a self steering gear to work and she more or less steered herself  for another 3,000 miles around the Western Pacific before breaking  loose from a mooring and ending up on a reef in Fiji. The boat broke  up ( ferro Cement, but two years later a friend took a picture of the  remains of the stern being supported by an undammaged steel skeg.Had  the hull been steel she wouldn't have been dammaged at all in the same  conditions.   I've heard of many similar success stories of people taking off keel  mounted rudders and replacing them with skeg mounted rudders further  aft.I'd highly recommend it on any boat. Skegs give a rudder far  greater strength than any unsupported spade rudder could ever have.  Having a skeg in front of a rudder greatly increases the angle it  takes to stall it.          Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Michael Casling" <caslingm@s...> wrote: > Brent wrote: >  > I  used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first  > boat. >   The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of  > yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean.  >  >  I have a copy of that book and find it a good reference guide, but  the information he has on rudders is enough to confuse me. They were  still promoting the opinion that the rudder should be attached to the  back of a fin keel and that a boat can not steer straight unless a  skeg is in front of the rudder. I have sailed on boats with fin keels  and transom hung rudders, no skeg, that go perfectly straight upwind  and down. >  > Michael Casling  Tanzer 8.5      caslingm@s... |
714|690|2002-03-06 07:57:47|brentswain38|Re: self steering equipment|The self steering in my book and on my plans works extremely well for  all my designs . It cost's less than $20 for materials . Some people  have tried horizontal axis vanes , theoreitically more powerful, but  in practise they all seemed to need a lot more wind to work downwind.   None of the new improved models have worked as well as the    original , and all have taken a lot more fiddling to use.   On a reach in light airs I sometimes found the boat will follow a  course very accurately , then suddenly wander off downwind for a  while, befor returning to her proper couse. The solution was to ease  the main  well off, then vang it strongly down to the rail, taking all  the twist out of it. After that she'd steer very accurately for days  on end.  Bearings should be made of plastic with at least 1/16th inch of  clearance. Everything should rattle a bit. Otherwise the first bit of  salt in the system will kill it's light air performance.  Good hull balance in the original design makes all the difference in  self steering, regardless of the vane.               Brent Swain                         --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind;  are   there self-steering systems which don't?    >  > Brent gives instructions in his book on building your own   self-steering from stainless rod and other materials, and I've seen  his system on several of his designs.  His system uses a trim-tab on  the rudder, so there is very low stress to the machine itself.  I  recall him saying that he also hooked up his autohelm 800 to the lever  on the trim tab, so that the autopilot has very little work to do,  extending the battery life and the working life of the autopilot  itself.  Seems to make good sense to me, and I like the fact that if  you built it yourself, then you can repair it yourself, anywhere,  anytime.     >  > Alex Christie. |
715|715|2002-03-06 09:25:08|rbyzitter2001|Construction|Hello all.  Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under  construction right now?|
716|715|2002-03-06 14:54:05|brentswain38|Re: Construction|There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over 100  have already been built.                                        Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello all.  Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under  > construction right now? |
717|715|2002-03-06 14:57:41|brentswain38|Re: Construction|Canyons Inc of McCall ID sent me a bad cheque . I returned it and  haven't heard from them since.                           Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > Hello all.  Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under  > construction right now? |
718|715|2002-03-07 02:34:25|david_hilliar|Re: Construction|Brent  Are there any boats being built or are presently located in New  Zealand that you are aware of. I would be very interested in seeing on or talking to its owner. David   --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over 100  > have already been built. >                                        Brent Swain >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello all.  Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are  under  > > construction right now? |
719|715|2002-03-07 14:34:51|brentswain38|Re: Construction|I'm unaware of any being built there at the moment, but several have  passed through Whangarei ( Shinola, Mishar,and  Opus which is ,I  believe ,in Musket Cove in Fiji at the moment.   One was thoroughly vandalised ,design wise ,by a Kiwi owner who  thought he had better ways of doing things and tried to modify the  whole boat to death.                                              Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "david_hilliar" <david@t...> wrote: > Brent  > Are there any boats being built or are presently located in New  > Zealand that you are aware of. > I would be very interested in seeing on or talking to its owner. > David >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over  100  > > have already been built. > >                                        Brent Swain > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > > Hello all.  Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are  > under  > > > construction right now? |
720|720|2002-03-07 21:18:51|kayaker_john|price of lead|Well, I've started scrounging!  I don't know alot of what I'm  scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet!  My tire  dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five gallon pail  full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to me for that  price.   This is in Vancouver, B.C..    Is it a good price?  I can  barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in it.|
721|720|2002-03-08 07:23:45|Phillip Allen|Re: price of lead|I believe I can speak about salvaged lead.  I've spent over thirty years casting bullets for myself and can tell you 'cleaning up' five gallons of lead is hot dirt work.  I always get those wheel weights for free usually with bucket.  The twenty-five dollars is for his trouble in dumping them in the bucket and for your head-of-the-line status.  Remember, he has no monitary investment in the 'trash' other that his having to pay attention to it when he sweeps up (that is worth something though), he does not buy them back from his coustomers and he charges the coustomer for the 'new weights' (figured into the price of balancing the tire and wheel).  When I start to gather lead for as large a project as you're doing, I'll furnish buckets (with my name and phone number on them) and offer him some incintive to remember me by.  I'll try to set up a schedual which allows me to pick up the bucket and replace it with a clean one before it's filled.   Learn everyone's name!  Learn how to flux the lead (clean it), I use borax for a large job because it's cheap and non flamable.  If you have neighbors close, pick a day when the're not home (It tends to smell like a burning out house).  Wear long sleaves, glasses, and keep your brain screwed in all the way...it can be dangerous!  Plan each pour and remember it's heavy so don't be tempted to overload yourself.        good luck!, Phillip (in Arkansas)<b>Do You Yahoo!?</b> Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!|
722|720|2002-03-09 17:35:23|brentswain38|Re: price of lead|That's an excellent price .                              Brent Swain   -- In origamiboats@y..., "kayaker_john" <jcholdal@s...> wrote:  >    Well, I've started scrounging!  I don't know alot of what I'm  > scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet!  My tire  > dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five gallon pail  > full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to me for   that   > price.   This is in Vancouver, B.C..    Is it a good price?  I can  > barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in it. |
723|720|2002-03-09 17:42:03|brentswain38|Re: price of lead|To avoid breathing fumes it's a good idea to wear a facemask. Some  use a surplus gas mask.   I've found it much easier to suck air through 25 feet of 1 1/2 inch  plastic  sump drain hose from the hardware store than a filtre. It's  also much more reliable .Put the intake upwind and you'll get no lead  or paint fumes whatever .The check valves in the mask will make sure  the air goes the right way.   The same rig is useful when it becomes time to paint your boat.                                                  Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> wrote: >  > I believe I can speak about salvaged lead.  I've spent over thirty  years casting bullets for myself and can tell you 'cleaning up' five  gallons of lead is hot dirt work.  I always get those wheel weights  for free usually with bucket.  The twenty-five dollars is for his  trouble in dumping them in the bucket and for your head-of-the-line  status.  Remember, he has no monitary investment in the 'trash' other  that his having to pay attention to it when he sweeps up (that is  worth something though), he does not buy them back from his  coustomers and he charges the coustomer for the 'new weights'  (figured into the price of balancing the tire and wheel).  When I  start to gather lead for as large a project as you're doing, I'll  furnish buckets (with my name and phone number on them) and offer him  some incintive to remember me by.  I'll try to set up a schedual  which allows me to pick up the bucket and replace it with a clean one  before it's filled.   Learn everyone's name!  Learn how to flux the  lead (clean it), I use borax for a large job because it's cheap and  non flamable.  If you have neighbors close, pick a day when the're  not home (It tends to smell like a burning out house).  Wear long  sleaves, glasses, and keep your brain screwed in all the way...it can  be dangerous!  Plan each pour and remember it's heavy so don't be  tempted to overload yourself.   >  >      good luck!, Phillip (in Arkansas) >  >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! |
724|724|2002-03-09 19:38:51|riptide0037|metal boat festival|August 9-11 , Vancouver, Washington . Check out the website : metalboatsociety.com I was there last year for the first time and found some good info and made a few new friends. Would be great if someone knowledgable in origami construction showed up|
725|531|2002-03-09 21:18:15|rbyzitter2001|Re: engines|For what it's worth.  Twin Disc has a Hurth "copy" out.  The MG340  (Hurth 100) and the MG360 (Hurth 150) When I checked out my pricing  on them with the local TW dealer my cost was about 30% better than my  cost on Hurth.  And if weigh is any indication of durability they are  aprox twice the weight, yet they are the same size and have aprox.  the same mounting bolt pattern.       In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote:  >  I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when   the   > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main  > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a   hurth   > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through   the   > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in   the   > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the  > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it   will   > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth   100.  >   A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or  > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a   tiny   > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. >   When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change  > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . >   I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest   that   > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. >   I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. >   Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. >                     Brent Swain   >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission,   ratio   > > and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be   interested   > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given  > engine  > > RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my sister   is   > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > Cheers.  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>   wrote:  > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  > > Excellent  > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips   to   > > the  > > > Charlottes and back. > > >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the  > oil  > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the   mounts   > > and  > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on  > it.  > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and  > > valve. > > >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done  > for  > > a  > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an inch   into   > > the  > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by   four   > > legs  > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement  > > made  > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow  > > welded  > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged   with   > > a  > > > pipe plug. > > >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  > > impossible  > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of   the   > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe  > nipple  > > on  > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the   top   > > of  > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I   can   > > pour  > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out  > the  > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a   full   > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling  > around  > > at  > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the  > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to  > catch  > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the   bat   > > > before installing an engine next time. > > >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and  > I've  > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that   stainless   > > wet  > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the   point   > > > where you  inject water in . > > >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much  > > from  > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the  > > success  > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold   is   > > very  > > >  easy to build .  > > >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the   internet   > > at  > > > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for keel  > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business   years   > > > ago"  > > >                             Brent Swain > > >  > > >  > > >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > > > >  > > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > > > Service.  > > > >  > > > >  > > > >  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
726|720|2002-03-10 01:40:20|Gord Schnell|Re: price of lead|I started collecting from tire shops and soon realized I could buy clean pure lead ingot for under 30 cents a lb. from Pacific Metals in Vancouver. Hell of a lot easier and not much more $$   kayaker_john wrote:  >  >    Well, I've started scrounging!  I don't know alot of > what I'm > scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet! > My tire > dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five > gallon pail > full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to > me for that > price.   This is in Vancouver, B.C..    Is it a good > price?  I can > barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in > it. >  >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                        ADVERTISEMENT >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
727|727|2002-03-11 15:30:03|kayaker_john|current price of lead, Vancouver area|Upon lbs of material; assuming 10% is steel and dirt, that  leaves me 262 lbs phoning Pacific Metals about the cost of lead:  1,000 pounds with each pick up, they would sell at 45 cents a pound.   With taxes that would be 51 cents per pound, with me picking it up.         My local tire dealer sold me two five gallon (Canadian gallon)  pails for $50xx of the used tire weights.  After weighing the lot I  find that I have 291 of "lead" for my $50xx ---that works out to  19 cents per pound.  I checked through for other crap like bolts and  nuts, etc.--it was pretty clean.         Thanks guys for the help and suggestions.    ---Off the topic, but interesting: I've registered for a welding  course with the nearby institute of technology, (not MIG) which is  what was recommended to me by someone in their welding department.   Upon reading Brent's book, I figured that my course was probably the  correct choice.  To be sure, I stopped by a welding supply store for  a "store" opinion and a customer's opinion.   MIG was the one!!--no  doubts.  Then I asked if this MIG cut metal.  Reply:"Well no, but for  that you take your metal to the local shop to have cut." ---Yup-- that's what I got!!!      Upon reading Brent's book I've identified about 50 projects  which I could do before I get my hull. That looks like a good hobby  for me till that time.       ----Thanks again everyone.|
728|728|2002-03-11 15:56:26|kayaker_john|computer and I  -- -- re lead price|Sorry!   This computer does not like me!! No time to retry!     Summary:    tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and  dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound      metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound,  gives per pound cost of 51 cents       ----Thanks again for all suggestion.|
729|729|2002-03-11 16:12:14|Ditmore, Stephen|lead price|          re: price of lead - hit up local tire stores for  surplus balance weights early and often! (see below) <em></em>  <em>Stephen </em>     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> kayaker_john  [mailto:jcholdal@...]<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2002 3:52  PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats]  computer and I -- -- re lead price     Sorry!   This computer does not like    me!! No time to retry!    Summary:   tire    dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and dirt, gives me    262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound    metal    company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound, gives per    pound cost of 51 cents      ----Thanks again for    all suggestion.  |
730|729|2002-03-11 16:35:34|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: lead price|          Oops, that was supposed to be a forward, not a reply.   Sorry.    -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b>  Ditmore, Stephen [mailto:sditmore@...]<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11,  2002 4:02 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>  [origamiboats] lead pricere: price of lead - hit up  local tire stores for surplus balance weights early and often! (see  below)     <em>Stephen </em>     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> kayaker_john    [mailto:jcholdal@...]<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 11, 2002 3:52    PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] computer and I -- -- re lead price      Sorry!   This computer does not like      me!! No time to retry!    Summary:   tire      dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and dirt, gives      me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound         metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound, gives      per pound cost of 51 cents      ----Thanks      again for all suggestion.  |
731|728|2002-03-11 16:54:06|Gord Schnell|Re: computer and I  -- -- re lead price|That's a good price. I haven't looked up my receipt, but I believe Pacific Metals wanted 28 cents for cable scrap lead and 30 cents for ingot.  Gord  kayaker_john wrote:  >  >    Sorry!   This computer does not like me!! No time to > retry! >     Summary: >    tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is > steel and > dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per > pound >  >     metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents > per pound, > gives per pound cost of 51 cents >       ----Thanks again for all suggestion. >  >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                        ADVERTISEMENT >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
732|732|2002-03-12 00:15:06|Scott Yanke|Lead|I might be able to get clean ingots for even less that $0.30 a pound. How much lead does the average hull take? and I will look in to it further. Scott Yanke "On the 10 year plan"|
733|733|2002-03-12 15:19:09|John P Barker|Brent's book|Ok Brent,  I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A.  You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. Any information on that book would be appreciated.  Thanks John P. Barker|
734|734|2002-03-12 16:57:35|Alex & Kim Christie|Dove III book|John,  I've just dug up this so far regarding the Dove arctc passage book.  Will get more details about source for buying it if I can. http://www.heritagehouse.ca/fineedge/arcticodyssey.html  Arctic Odyssey Len Sherman $19.95 ISBN 0-938665-63-4  -Alex Christie Origamiboats moderator   ----- Original Message ----- From: John P Barker <res0b38h@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent's book   > Ok Brent, >  I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How > much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. >  You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That > voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. > Any information on that book would be appreciated. > > Thanks > John P. Barker > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
735|735|2002-03-12 17:24:49|Alex & Kim Christie|Dove III book at Amazon|John,  The book, Arctic Odyssey : Dove III Masters the Northwest Passage by Len Sherman, is available through Amazon in the US for a list price of $24.95 USD plus shipping.  Here is the URL for where I found it on Amazon, but it is cheaper, even including shipping, to buy from the Canadian booksellers listed below the Amazon URL:  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0938665634/qid%3D1015970222/ref%3Dsr% 5F11%5F0%5F1/104-8423249-3359933  Canadians:  The book is published by Heritage House (www.heritagehouse.ca), and according to them costs $19.95 (CDN) and available at www.bcbooks.com and www.chapters.indigo.ca  BC Books lists it at $19.95 Cdn, and ships to US for $9Cdn, so total cost is Can$29.10, which is only $18.34USD, shipping included!  So buy Canadian, Eh?  Alex    ----- Original Message ----- From: John P Barker <res0b38h@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent's book   > Ok Brent, >  I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How > much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. >  You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That > voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. > Any information on that book would be appreciated. > > Thanks > John P. Barker > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
736|736|2002-03-12 17:26:51|jalborey|Dove III Book|Alex,  They have it at Amazon.com|
737|735|2002-03-12 18:44:45|John P Barker|Re: Dove III book at Amazon|          Alex, Thanks for the quick reply. I did order it from BC Books. It  is incredible that it is as easy to do now. My experience at trying to get  Farley Mowat's books out of Canada in the 60s was not so pleasant.   John     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Alex    & Kim Christie    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:33    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Dove III book at    Amazon   John,The book, Arctic Odyssey : Dove III Masters    the Northwest Passageby Len Sherman, is available through Amazon in the US    for a list price of$24.95 USD plus shipping.  Here is the URL for    where I found it on Amazon,but it is cheaper, even including shipping, to    buy from the CanadianCanadians:  The book is published by Heritage    House (www.heritagehouse.ca),and according to them costs $19.95 (CDN) and    available at www.bcbooks.comand www.chapters.indigo.caSo buy    Canadian, Eh?Alex   |
738|732|2002-03-14 10:03:32|greenguy2ca|Lead|I am builing a 36' bilge keeler just outside of Nanaimo and would  like to hear from anyone regarding buying lead or anything else that  might save us a few bucks acting together.  Thanks|
739|732|2002-03-14 20:12:12|ravensoars2001|Re: Lead|I am building a 36' fin-keel on the Sunshine Coast.  So far i have  collected about 700lbs from tire shops here.  I wheel the stuff back  to my boat building shack balanced 2 buckets at a time, hanging on  the handle bars of my bicycle without too much trouble.  Price ranges  from free, $10, $15 and up to $25 per per plastic pail:  replacing  the pails seems to help in some cases.  I have scrounged up another  1500lbs or so from scrap.  There are scrap metal dealers in Vancouver  who will sell you clean lead for 33cents lbs and sometimes less.  It  is worth shopping around.  If it helps, it seems possible to obtain  lead that has been used on roofs and has tar on it for less.  I will  try to get a precise price if the quantity makes it worthwhile.  I  figure the tar will burn off during melting or the small amount that  survives the pour won't harm anything once it is welded in tight.   All this said, I am guessing you would prefer to shop on the Island  to save on ferry costs.  How much lead do you need at the moment? rt    --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > I am builing a 36' bilge keeler just outside of Nanaimo and would  > like to hear from anyone regarding buying lead or anything else  that  > might save us a few bucks acting together.  Thanks |
740|531|2002-03-14 21:16:26|ravensoars2001|Re: engines and transmissions|Thanks for the tip.  I just found a Borg Warner AS2-71C.  It came  with 2 coolers (1 spare) a drive plate and a shop manual.  Seems to  work really well and the price was right.  Apperently it could be a  bit of overkill but local fishermen tell me that the thing is  virtually foolproof providing it is protected from salt water.   Originally I discounted the idea of a motor having sailed contentedly  without one.  Then on the urging of friends who like to be home on  time, we compromised with the thought of an outboard, adjusted that  plan with the notion of a cheap gas engine; later Brent wisely  advised on waiting for a diesel with forced air ducted through the  engine compartment.  After lusting for a new 3 cyl Isuzu at the baot  show (which would have been ideal), I found a rebuilt VW Rabbit  diesel engine from a wreck that I could actually pay for and own. It  is the 1600cc version that enjoyed a long production run and  according to the books produces 38hp at 3000 rpm.  Used parts are  abundant and spares relatively easy to come by. rt          --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...> wrote: > The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical  > transmission.  The problem in the past has been it being overrated  by  > manufactures.  That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150  or  > a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler  would  > aid transmission life.  The hurth does not have a forced lube  system  > but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and  > cools through heat transfer.  The B&W is also a very good hydraulic  > transmission.  Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable.  I  have  > sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. > Cheers.    >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "ravensoars2001" <rct_51@h...> wrote: > > Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with  Hurth  > > transmisions.  Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic  > had  > > to replace his discs after 1500 hrs.  I have an opotunity to pick  > up  > > a used Borg Warner and rebuild it.  I like this idea since it  > > provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a  lot  > > less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc.  I then have the option to  buy  > > extra parts that appear to wear more for spares.  I am going to  try  > > out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine  > > compartment.  Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and  reworking  > a  > > stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange.  rt > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  wrote: > > >  I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter  > when  > > the  > > > dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main  > > > bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have  a  > > hurth  > > > 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire  > through  > > the  > > > hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole  in  > > the  > > > dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making  the  > > > dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate,  it  > > will  > > > do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a  hurth  > > 100. > > >   A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small  side  > or  > > > under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a  > > tiny  > > > bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every  > time. > > >   When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to  > change  > > > the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . > > >   I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the  biggest  > > that  > > > will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had  > room. > > >   I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. > > >   Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. > > >                     Brent Swain   > > >  > > >  > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "rbyzitter2001" <rbyzitter@f...>  wrote: > > > > Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission,  > > ratio  > > > > and what size propellor are you using ?  I would also be  > > interested  > > > > in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a  given  > > > engine  > > > > RPM you are seeing.  Thank you very much.  PS:  I think my  > sister  > > is  > > > > married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. > > > > Cheers.  > > > >  > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  > > wrote: > > > > > I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996.  > > > > Excellent  > > > > > engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several  > trips  > > to  > > > > the  > > > > > Charlottes and back. > > > > >   The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining  > the  > > > oil  > > > > > pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the  > > mounts  > > > > and  > > > > > impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball  valve  > on  > > > it.  > > > > > The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow  > and  > > > > valve. > > > > >   When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had  > done  > > > for  > > > > a  > > > > > drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread  going an  inch  > > into  > > > > the  > > > > > pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by  > > four  > > > > legs  > > > > > and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The  > arrangement  > > > > made  > > > > > it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . > > > > >  I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread  > elbow  > > > > welded  > > > > > onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and  plugged  > > with  > > > > a  > > > > > pipe plug. > > > > >   One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's  > > > > impossible  > > > > > to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side  > of  > > the  > > > > > engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch  pipe  > > > nipple  > > > > on  > > > > > the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with  the  > > top  > > > > of  > > > > > the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way  I  > > can  > > > > pour  > > > > > oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running  > out  > > > the  > > > > > pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have  a  > > full  > > > > > charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm  rolling  > > > around  > > > > at  > > > > > sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on  > the  > > > > > overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it  to  > > > catch  > > > > > the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off  > the  > > bat  > > > > > before installing an engine next time. > > > > >   My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now  > and  > > > I've  > > > > > had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that  > > stainless  > > > > wet  > > > > > exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the  > > point  > > > > > where you  inject water in . > > > > >   My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too  > much  > > > > from  > > > > > the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given  the  > > > > success  > > > > > I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled  manifold  > > is  > > > > very  > > > > >  easy to build .  > > > > >  A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the  > > internet  > > > > at  > > > > > www.metalboatsociety  as having said" If everyone went for  > keel  > > > > > cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of  business  > > years  > > > > > ago"  > > > > >                             Brent Swain > > > > >  > > > > >  > > > > >> >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > > > > > >  > > > > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms  > of  > > > > > Service.  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > >  > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
742|733|2002-03-15 16:52:16|brentswain38|Re: Brent's book|For a copy of my book , please send US $20 plus US$3 for postage to Suite#427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9                                             Thanks                                              Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "John P Barker" <res0b38h@v...> wrote: > Ok Brent, >  I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want  one. How > much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. >  You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West  Passage. That > voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my  library. > Any information on that book would be appreciated. >  > Thanks > John P. Barker |
743|743|2002-03-15 17:17:22|brentswain38|Grinding Discs|Most Makita angle grinders have a rather large metal backup plate for  use with rigid discs. This limits the amount of use you can get out  of each disc. You have to take them off when there is still a lot of  disc left. When I suggested to Ken Splett that this seemed a rather  foolish thing for Makita to do he said " No ,Makita sells discs ".   I found it easy to cut the flange off with a cutting torch ,  leaving a backup plate about 1 1/2 inch in diameter, put it back on  the grinder , and using another grinder with both runnibg  simultaneously, machine the burned backup plate back to round.This  lets you use the discs until they are totally used up and also to use  smaller discs to grind the inside of holes like scuppers, etc.Being  flat, it also lets you use flat discs without pulling the centre out  of them.   The centreing flange on the standard arrangement is a bit too deep  to enable you to use the thin walter Zipcut  cutting discs which are  so handy and cut so fast. Of course Makita will sell you a whole  other setup with a deeper groove which will handle zipcuts, for an  additional fee of course.   It's easy to grind the centreing flange down enough to use zipcuts,  and still have enough to safely centre discs.    This eliminates the need to be constantly hunting for the part you  need in a pile of scrap ,and constantly having to change the backup  plates as you switch from cutting to grinding discs, and thus greatly  speeds up detail work.   If you tighten the discs on by hand, you can usually get them off  by hand, without having to hunt for the wrench. If it needs to be  tighter, it will tighten itself, as the thread turns in the same  direction as the grinder. Keyless pulleys on alternators work the  same way.   My older makita 4 inch grinder has a 10 mmx1.25 thread . This is  extremely close to a 3/8th inch fine thread , which is the thread on  a drill chuck. I ran a metric tap through a drill chuck and am now  able to thread it on my mini grinder and use all those cheap mini  grindstones on my angle grinder for touchup in hard to reach spots,  all at 10,000 RPM.They are too small a diameter to have enough  centrifugal force to be a serious safety hazzard.  A friend who built a round bilge Brewer design , with lots of seams  to grind , tried aluminium rigid discs on steel . He said that altho  they dissapeared much faster than steel dics, they cut the metal down  a lot faster,  and he figured it was worth the extra expense on hard  to reach , overhead grinding to use aluminium discs .He said the time  saved more than paid for the extra cost of the discs.|
744|743|2002-03-17 08:37:00|Richard Payne|Re: Grinding Discs|I solved the disk problem by using up the disks as much as possible on a 9 inch grinder and then swapping them over to a 4 inch grinder with the same spindle diameter to use them right up. For ease of construction you really need a large and a small grinder anyway. I would be cautious about minimizing flange diameter. Regards, Richard.|
745|743|2002-03-18 15:17:02|ravensoars2001|Re: Grinding Discs|We have deliberately destruction tested half used cut off discs using  nothing but a pair of flat washers and a nut.  They work well  provided that the clamping surfaces are flat.  The danger lies in  placing the disc on a depressed cup and tightening on it unevenly.   This will lead to disc fracture and they may disintegrate.  By  comparison, check out how small the backing plate is on a cut off saw  with a 14" blade--turns out to be smaller than the one on your angle  grinder most of the time.  rt   -- In origamiboats@y..., Richard Payne <nekeyah@c...> wrote:  > I solved the disk problem by using up the disks as much as possible   on a  > 9 inch grinder and then swapping them over to a 4 inch grinder with   the  > same spindle diameter to use them right up. For ease of   construction you  > really need a large and a small grinder anyway. I would be cautious > about minimizing flange diameter. > Regards, Richard. |
746|746|2002-03-19 17:00:04|ravensoars2001|Mare Island Epoxy|Mare Island Epoxy was used to paint US Navy Vessels.  I am led to  believe it has been replaced by Devoe Barust 235.  I would appreciate  learning anything about the performance of the Mare Island product.   It was manufactured by NCP Coatings MI.  How well would it perform on  a small steel boat?  Thank you, rt|
747|747|2002-03-20 13:11:29|jalborey|Hull repair in origami boats|I find the origami boatbuilding concept most interesting. But I have  a doubt regarding the following: how can you repair a origami hull in  the event it receives more or less extensive damage in places where  the hull is self supported by what, as I understand it, is  a "stressed skin hull"? How can you replace, in case you need to, a  extended section of the hull plating where it is subjected to the  forces which give form to the hull? Thanks, Jesús|
748|747|2002-03-21 17:20:00|brentswain38|Re: Hull repair in origami boats|Despite surviving everything from pounding accross 200 yards of  fijian coral reef to a collision with a freighter,steel barge,  logboom, etc., to pounding in 8ft surf for several weeks , etc, etc ,  over the past 22 years , no one has ever had to repair one.   As the ends of a boat would just bounce , the only place where you  are even remotely likely to dent an origami boat is midships along  the chine. When replacing plate here you would have to tack several  fairly wide pieces of plate on edge accross the seam to keep them in  line while you are doing any welding, the break these pieces off to  weld the spots where they were , and grind the outside . This is the  same technique you would use to keep the bottom plates fair accross  any seams there .   On a single keel boat , the chine doubler plates on the inside of  the hull can be made of as heavy a plate as you feel is needed ,as  any weight there is amidships and low down. This greatly reduces the  likelyhood of any dammage there.                                         Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "jalborey" <jalborey@y...> wrote: > I find the origami boatbuilding concept most interesting. But I  have  > a doubt regarding the following: how can you repair a origami hull  in  > the event it receives more or less extensive damage in places where  > the hull is self supported by what, as I understand it, is  > a "stressed skin hull"? How can you replace, in case you need to, a  > extended section of the hull plating where it is subjected to the  > forces which give form to the hull? > Thanks, > Jesús |
749|662|2002-03-26 18:52:05|brentswain38|Re: "NUTHIN WONG "|Jack Carson has a similar design to "Nuthin Wong"in the works .  Construction on it should be beginning soon in Royston BC. You can  reach him at jackaranda@...                                             Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "seadog122543" <seadog122543@y...> wrote: > I am very interested in the design and building of the  "Nuthin  > Wong " Do you know where I can find more information?  John Bridges >    jgbridges43@h... |
750|750|2002-03-29 16:06:48|dr01allen|yahoo derived spam|It seems Yahoo! is once again trying to spam its users without consent. They did some server rework last week, and the news is out that they have set *every* account to receive spam and to give out your email and phone number to marketing groups. This is bad! VERY BAD! :(  If you have an account with Yahoo Groups. Follow the instructions below to get yourself *out* of their latest scam. Do it quickly, or else one will likely be spam to death, receive numerous calls from telemarketers, etc. DO IT NOW!  ********************************************** Yahoogroups seems to have taken the time last week while the service was down to add a "marketing" area to everyone's account. In setting this up the default they have set is "yes" which means you must "opt-out" if you don't want to receive e-mail advertising offers, etc. They set everyone up to receive spam. Here's the directions to change all preferences to "no" so you won't receive their advertising.  Go to the Yahoogroups page: http://www.groups.yahoo.com . After you log in click on Account Info on the top right corner of the screen. Enter your password when prompted, then below the listing of your email addresses, you'll see a link for "Edit Marketing Preferences", click on that.  You'll see it's set to Yes (please send me spam) on every option.  Set them all to No, don't forget the two towards the bottom of the page about phone and snail mail spam and click the button to save it. ***********************************************|
751|750|2002-03-31 01:17:03|Gord Schnell|Re: yahoo derived spam|Thank you for the warning!!  dr01allen wrote:  >  > It seems Yahoo! is > once again trying to spam its users without consent. They > did some > server rework last week, and the news is out that they > have set *every* > account to receive spam and to give out your email and > phone number to > marketing groups. This is bad! VERY BAD! :( >  > If you have an account with Yahoo Groups. Follow the > instructions below > to get yourself *out* of their latest scam. Do it quickly, > or else one > will likely be spam to death, receive numerous calls from > telemarketers, > etc. DO IT NOW! >  > ********************************************** > Yahoogroups seems to have taken the time last week while > the service was > down to add a "marketing" area to everyone's account. In > setting this up > the default they have set is "yes" which means you must > "opt-out" if you > don't want to receive e-mail advertising offers, etc. > They set everyone up to receive spam. Here's the > directions to change > all preferences to "no" so you won't receive their > advertising. >  > Go to the Yahoogroups page: http://www.groups.yahoo.com . > After you log > in click on Account Info on the top right corner of the > screen. Enter > your password when prompted, then below the listing of > your email > addresses, you'll see a link for "Edit Marketing > Preferences", click on > that.  You'll see it's set to Yes (please send me spam) on > every > option.  Set them all to No, don't forget the two towards > the bottom of > the page about phone and snail mail spam and click the > button to save > it. > *********************************************** >  >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                        ADVERTISEMENT >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
752|750|2002-03-31 14:28:32|greenguy2ca|Re: yahoo derived spam|Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email  Preferences...??  Gary|
753|750|2002-03-31 14:36:22|hollie|Re: yahoo derived spam|        it is  there - took me about 5 log ins to find it - they don't exactly shout it out at  you.     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> greenguy2ca    [mailto:GPREB@...]<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 31, 2002 2:29    PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Re: yahoo derived spamChecked that    out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email    Preferences...??GaryTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
754|750|2002-04-01 15:06:55|Stephen Wandling|Re: yahoo derived spam|Attachments :To stop the spam you want to look for "Edit Marketing Preferences".   greenguy2ca wrote:   > Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email > Preferences...?? > > Gary > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705150872:HM/A=847665/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vbW9uc3RlcjcuZGF0=1017602913%3eM=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705150872:HM/A=847665/R=1>  > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . |
755|750|2002-04-02 16:53:02|brentswain38|Re: yahoo derived spam|I went through the proccess you reccommended and managed to find edit  marketing preferences . Sure enough , everything had been changed to  yes . I changed everything back to no.Try again Gary. It took some  very careful reading to find out where to go.   I've been meeting friends lately who have abandonned the internet  entirely because of excessive junk mail. Such practises will  eventually kill the internet for all of us.   Thanks for the warning.                                               Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., Stephen Wandling <stephenw@t...> wrote: > To stop the spam you want to look for "Edit Marketing Preferences". >  >  > greenguy2ca wrote: >  > > Checked that out...but did not see any text that said Edit Email > > Preferences...?? > > > > Gary > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > >  <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17 05150872:HM/A=847665/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/? bHlhaG9vbW9uc3RlcjcuZGF0=1017602913% 3eM=215002.1818248.3328688.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705150872:HM/A=84766 5/R=1>  > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:  > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service  > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . |
756|750|2002-04-02 17:23:33|C. K. Sollitt|Re: yahoo derived spam|Brent,  	I bought the Kobella last fall and am ready to purchase sails. The boat came with a 13.5 ft wood (go figure) boom. Your sail design for this boat calls for a 15.5 ft foot on the main and I have found two other 36' BS pilot house boats with 16 to 17 ft long booms. My mast is 46 ft high above the deck. Should I look for another boom? Do you recommend any specific dimensions and/or rigging for the boom?  Chuck Sollitt|
757|757|2002-04-03 19:56:40|greenguy2ca|Whazzzat..?|Heard there are 40,000 containers lost from container vessels  floating about at any given time...10,000 lost per year.  I am  assuming outside of a tearomg corner hit, the origami steel boat is  best constructed to survive.  Suppose a corner hit.. how bad would be  the damage @ say 5 knots...and what then?  Thanks all..  Gary|
758|750|2002-04-03 21:02:08|brentswain38|Re: yahoo derived spam|13ft5 is mighty short for a boom. While it's nice to get it out of  the cockpit, you should look for something a bit longer, as you'd be  giving up a lot of sail area with such a short boom. A 5 inch  diameter aluminium tube with 1/8th inch wall is adequate .Check the  availability of used sails , going a bit shorter on the foot is OK  but if you go too short , you'll end up with a lee helm in light  winds. The rig is designed for a roachless, battenless mainsail. A  combination of high roach and long boom will give you a bit of  weather helm as well as the constant headachs and repairs battens  inevitably cause.                                       Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "C. K. Sollitt" <sollitc@e...> wrote: > Brent, >  > 	I bought the Kobella last fall and am ready to purchase  sails. The boat > came with a 13.5 ft wood (go figure) boom. Your sail design for this > boat calls for a 15.5 ft foot on the main and I have found two  other 36' > BS pilot house boats with 16 to 17 ft long booms. My mast is 46 ft  high > above the deck. Should I look for another boom? Do you recommend any > specific dimensions and/or rigging for the boom? >  > Chuck Sollitt |
759|757|2002-04-03 21:10:38|brentswain38|Re: Whazzzat..?|A friend hit a sunken barge on a sharp point while he was doing seven  knots . The 3/16th inch 36 foot steel hull was only dented .A  floating container would be highly unlikely to punch a hole or do any  serious damage to a 36 or 40 footer built of 3/16th inch plate .    Comming home from Hawaii I once hit something, while doing hull  speed in the middle of the night, which was definitly metal. It  bounced me right out of my bunk. The only dammage was a small dent  which I only discovered years later.                                          Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > Heard there are 40,000 containers lost from container vessels  > floating about at any given time...10,000 lost per year.  I am  > assuming outside of a tearomg corner hit, the origami steel boat is  > best constructed to survive.  Suppose a corner hit.. how bad would  be  > the damage @ say 5 knots...and what then? >  > Thanks all..  Gary |
760|757|2002-04-03 21:24:17|greenguy2ca|Re: Whazzzat..?|Thanks Brent... On my first attempt at building (wrong economic  assumptions..my part entirely).. your 36 ft'r..it was near Cumberland  on some acreage where the owner had cattle.. He roped off the area  around the boat..not to protect the structure but to protect his herd  from bruising the fillet...  Gary|
761|761|2002-04-04 16:10:10|edward_stoneuk|Gas Cutting Guide|Hi folks,  Do you have any good ideas or information on using a flexible batten  as a guide for the gas torch when cutting out steel plate or sheet?  Ted Stone|
762|761|2002-04-04 18:03:49|brentswain38|Re: Gas Cutting Guide|A flexible batten made of deck beam flatbar tacked to the plate works  well with a plasma cutter. With a cutting torch, as soon as the heat  from the torch hits the batten, it expands and takes on all kinds of  funny shapes . It would take something much stiffer, such as angle  iron, to hold it's shape , and that would limit it's ability to go  around curves . I've found that a heavy piece of plate , used as a  guide and moved every couple of feet works OK.   Perhaps flatbar which is not tacked to the plate , but is supported  between small pieces of scrap which are tacked to the plate , may  leave the flatbar free to expand longitudinally and thus avoid the  heat expansion problem. I've never tried this, but it may work.                                          Brent Swain  --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Hi folks, >  > Do you have any good ideas or information on using a flexible   batten   > as a guide for the gas torch when cutting out steel plate or sheet? >  > Ted Stone |
763|763|2002-04-07 10:16:40|robert44654|new ideas|I am back again! I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is  revelalutionary!  Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower  hull models.  MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about  10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When  you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that  occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat.  What I did  was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches by 3  inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from  the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length or  less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter circle,  and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a straight  line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle.  (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends).  then tape them together similair to  the method of brent swain's model.  For the transom cut a  semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment  slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back.  The boat seems  to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward  or backward.  this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter  bottom, which is good.  The shape of a cross section of the stern of  the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from side  to side of the boat. Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at least  greater than 40 feet.   2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the boat  not pointed) 3) multihulls  OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8  foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water.   Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end to  end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely  the outside)  the lines of each half hull lofted onto the fiberglass  and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction  methods of Brent with steel.  Blue board can be melted/dissolved in  epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on  this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not the  ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of).   Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what  dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of  fiberglass to the blue board is weak.  Solution: There may have to  bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and  the outside fiberglass bond to each other.  Probablely they could be  joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either  making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts in  the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is  wetted through the cuts.|
764|764|2002-04-07 13:12:15|robert44654|fiberglass female mold|Another idea: Build half boats with brents disign,( may want to design to slightly  ligther displacement) and use the inside of the half hulls as forms  for fiberglass boat. The inside of the forms can easily be faired by  taking a large radius forming paddle in the shape of a semi circle  and filling in (with a fairing compound) the "dimple" that is  created below the waterline that is created by the chine.  The form  can be made out of thin plywood at litttle cost. Make sure to apply  some sort of releasing compound to the form before the gelcoat and  fiberglass is applied.|
765|765|2002-04-07 16:55:55|greenguy2ca|Welds|Just wondering about the permeability of welds.  I realize that after  epoxy & paint there is not much chance of leaks, but can welds  actually leak?    Gary|
766|765|2002-04-07 17:07:12|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welds|          In theory a weld can be as impermeable as the base  metal.  I watched the construction of a large stainless tank for the  testing of spacecraft at deep space vacuum levels.  The tank was stick  welded from 2" thick stainless, then all the welds were 'washed' with a tig  torch to seal any possible voids in the surface.  I used to do work for a  chemical plant where we welded mild steel hot oil lines.  They had to carry  oil heated to a temperature of 550 degrees Fahrenheit.  A pinhole leak was  dangerous because it would spray atomized oil into the air and it would  immediately catch fire.  We pressure tested everything with air at about  100 psi and used soap bubbles to test for leaks.  No problem getting bubble  tight welds, if you were careful.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    greenguy2ca       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 07, 2002 4:55  PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Welds   Just wondering about the permeability of welds.  I realize    that after epoxy & paint there is not much chance of leaks, but can    welds actually leak?     Gary------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    ---------------------~-->Buy Stock for $4and no minimums.FREE    Money 2002.http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
767|767|2002-04-07 19:24:39|Gary H. Lucas|Want to buy boat plans|          Brent, I want to order plans for your 31' boat.  Is the  price still $300?  Where do I send the money?   Gary H. Lucas|
768|768|2002-04-07 22:56:18|claudepoitras|Boat Insurance|I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get  proper insurance?  Are insurance company not leary of back-yard  builders?|
769|727|2002-04-07 23:26:28|quatsein|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion). It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weld with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's best not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are  actually building metal boats.  Steve Carlisle|
770|768|2002-04-08 02:49:56|alex_christie|Re: Boat Insurance|To get insurance for your boat, most companies require you to have it  surveyed, even if it is built of fibreglass, wood, metal, concrete,  or whatever.  This way, both you and the company know and agree what  kind of condition the hull is in, the state of its safety equipment,  and most importantly, how much money it is worth should it need to be  replaced.  It should not be a problem insuring a steel boat, even if  it is home-built.   The other kind of insurance, called "liability" is what you get to  insure yourself in case you damage someone else's property or person  with your vessel.  The hull material in this case doesn't make much  difference, unless your hull is made of something explosive!      Is your insurance broker leery about insuring a metal boat? There are  thousands of insurance brokers out there who would be very happy to  have your business, so if at first try you find your request for  insurance turned down, simply "go across the street" to the next  company, and you will likely have better luck.  Steel is not an uncommon material in the marine industry, of course--- look at all the steel ships out there!    Alex     .  Liabilit--- In origamiboats@y..., "claudepoitras"  <claude.poitras@s...> wrote:  > I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. > If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get  > proper insurance?  Are insurance company not leary of back-yard  > builders? |
771|727|2002-04-08 08:22:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|          I have a lot of experience with bad MIG  welds.  I owned a company that made parts which were hot dip galvanized  after welding.  A beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart  after galvanizing.  It was very scary since these parts were intended to  hang machinery from overhead!  We determined that the problem was due to  welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration.  In particular  the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem.  It can't carry  enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds look great.  We  specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick,  and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga. tubing.   We refuse to  accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference  by eye.  The welding companies always argue with this because it is  sometimes much more difficult to weld out of position.  Once the welders  get experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding process is  much quicker at the higher current levels.   A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding  machines.  When a weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially  shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and  initiates the arc.  If the transformer in the welding machine is too small  the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a cold start, and a  bad weld.  Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders use 0.025" welding  wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration than 0.035"   I would weld a steel hull with MIG without  hesitation.  Using the right machine and the right techniques you will get  less heat distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating extensive  grinding and chipping, changing rods etc.  You also can weld out of  position much easier than with stick.   Gary H. Lucas       ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    quatsein       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: current price    of lead, Vancouver area   John, Most first time welders are really impressed with    howeasy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is thewelds    they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion).It's far    more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weldwith stick than    mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's bestnot to pay too much    attention to salesmen and store goer's, unlessthey can prove thier    experience to you. Ask the guys that are actually building metal    boats.Steve Carlisle------------------------ Yahoo! Groups    Sponsor ---------------------~-->Buy Stock for $4and no    minimums.FREE Money 2002.http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
772|763|2002-04-08 08:38:00|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: new ideas|The idea of a ling narrow cruiser makes a lot of sense for a hardchine boat. While not exactly an Origamiboat, in that it has internal athrwarship framing, SteelStar by Yves Tanton   http://www.tantonyachts.com/ is a really great example of this type.  Jeff  robert44654 wrote:   > I am back again! > I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is > revelalutionary!  Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower > hull models.  MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about > 10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When > you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that > occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat.  What I did > was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches by 3 > inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from > the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length or > less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter circle, > and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a straight > line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle. > (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends).  then tape them together similair to > the method of brent swain's model.  For the transom cut a > semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment > slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back.  The boat seems > to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward > or backward.  this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter > bottom, which is good.  The shape of a cross section of the stern of > the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from side > to side of the boat. > Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at least > greater than 40 feet. > 2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the boat > not pointed) > 3) multihulls > > OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8 > foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water. > Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end to > end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely > the outside)  the lines of each half hull lofted onto the fiberglass > and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction > methods of Brent with steel.  Blue board can be melted/dissolved in > epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on > this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not the > ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of). > Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what > dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of > fiberglass to the blue board is weak.  Solution: There may have to > bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and > the outside fiberglass bond to each other.  Probablely they could be > joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either > making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts in > the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is > wetted through the cuts. > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
773|773|2002-04-08 13:14:38|kayaker_john|questions re stainless steel|We just bought six stainless steel piecees for stanchions, but  they were very dull, almost a grey color.  The metal dealer (scrap  yard) told us it was the "mill finish".   He said that we could  polish them up.  Is this true?  If true, how do you get the shine in  them. (By "shine", I mean that stainless steel "look".)  Oh yes, they  were non-magnetic.            -------John Holdal,  Mission, B.C.|
774|773|2002-04-08 13:34:59|francois letourneau|Re: questions re stainless steel|--- kayaker_john <jcholdal@...> wrote:  Hi  kayaker John.  I am new to the board,  Are you thinking about making a metal see kayak using the origami method???  Regards  Francois Designer, Inno3D, Quebec    __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/|
775|775|2002-04-08 14:01:24|kayaker_john|Pacific Metals' price of lead, Vancouver|Pacific Metals gave me the following prices today: (1)scrap  lead at 45 cents per pound----containing high 90%s amount of lead    (2) ingots of pure lead at 55 cents per pound -----containing over  99% lead.               ----Good Luck,     John Holdal|
776|727|2002-04-08 16:15:59|Leif Thomsen|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|          I fully agree! After several yachts, the last one  was a 40 feet steel junkrigged scooner I am convinced that MIGwelding, using the  right teqnique and equipment produces strong and watertight welds, and saving a  lot of time.    Leif Thomsen Sweden     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Gary H.    Lucas    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 08, 2002 2:22  PM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: current    price of lead, Vancouver area      I have a lot of experience with bad MIG    welds.  I owned a company that made parts which were hot dip galvanized    after welding.  A beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall    apart after galvanizing.  It was very scary since these parts were    intended to hang machinery from overhead!  We determined that the problem    was due to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration.  In    particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem.     It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds    look great.  We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials    from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga.    tubing.   We refuse to accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld    wire, and you can tell the difference by eye.  The welding companies    always argue with this because it is sometimes much more difficult to    weld out of position.  Once the welders get experienced though your    welding costs go down because the welding process is much quicker at the    higher current levels.       A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding    machines.  When a weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially    shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off    and initiates the arc.  If the transformer in the welding machine is too    small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a cold    start, and a bad weld.  Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders use    0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration than    0.035"       I would weld a steel hull with MIG without    hesitation.  Using the right machine and the right techniques you will    get less heat distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating    extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc.  You also can weld    out of position much easier than with stick.       Gary H. Lucas            ----- Original Message -----      <b>From:</b>      quatsein           <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com           <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26      PM     <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: current      price of lead, Vancouver area     John, Most first time welders are really impressed with      howeasy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is thewelds      they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion).It's far      more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weldwith stick      than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's bestnot to pay too      much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unlessthey can prove thier      experience to you. Ask the guys that are actually building metal      boats.Steve Carlisle------------------------ Yahoo!      Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->Buy Stock for $4and no      minimums.FREE Money 2002.http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To      Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo      Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      To Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
777|727|2002-04-09 00:19:56|quatsein|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|Well Gary, I have to disagree with most of all your comments in regards to MIG welding, except maybe the part about the welding machine quality, however I think it's more about people buying too small a machine for the job. I can say this  because I am certified, and have tested in all processes and  positions. The problems that you speak of are not process related but technique related.  Steve   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > I have a lot of experience with bad MIG welds.  I owned a company  that made parts which were hot dip galvanized after welding.  A  beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart after  galvanizing.  It was very scary since these parts were intended to  hang machinery from overhead!  We determined that the problem was due  to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration.  In  particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major  problem.  It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even  though the welds look great.  We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL  welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4"  parts welded to 16 ga. tubing.   We refuse to accept any parts welded  with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference by eye.  The  welding companies always argue with this because it is sometimes much  more difficult to weld out of position.  Once the welders get  experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding  process is much quicker at the higher current levels. >  > A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding machines.  When a  weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially shoots way up,  to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and  initiates the arc.  If the transformer in the welding machine is too  small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a  cold start, and a bad weld.  Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders  use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration  than 0.035" >  > I would weld a steel hull with MIG without hesitation.  Using the  right machine and the right techniques you will get less heat  distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating  extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc.  You also can  weld out of position much easier than with stick. >  > Gary H. Lucas >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: quatsein  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area >  >  >   John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how >   easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the >   welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of  fusion). >   It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality  weld >   with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's  best >   not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless >   they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are  >   actually building metal boats. >  >   Steve Carlisle >  >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
778|773|2002-04-09 01:53:13|kayaker_john|Re: questions re stainless steel|No, I'm not even remotely thinking of a metal kayak; however, I  am thinking about a "metal mothership" about 36 feet in length from  which I can launch a small kayak to go "gunk holing".  My identifier  name, "kayaker_john" was my attempt at not being able to be easly  indentified as I was very uneasy about joining an internet group.   Since then I have been so pleased with this group that I've tried to  change my member name to just "John Holdal"  ---but have been unable  to do so.  Welcome to the group.  I hope you enjoy it as much as I  do.   There are alot of very expereinced people here who give  excellent advice.   ----"John Holdal"--- In origamiboats@y...,  francois letourneau <frlet@y...> wrote:  >  > --- kayaker_john <jcholdal@s...> wrote: >  > Hi  kayaker John.  I am new to the board,  Are you > thinking about making a metal see kayak using the > origami method??? >  > Regards >  > Francois > Designer, Inno3D, Quebec >  >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ |
779|727|2002-04-09 07:31:41|Gary H. Lucas|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|          Steve, I agree that someone who is an expert in the process AND  has the metal properly prepared CAN make excellent quality welds using the  smaller wire sizes.  My experience is that the welder in not always the  most qualified, and the metal is not always in ideal conditions.  I was  making hangers to hang machinery overhead.  We were making thousands of  parts, and even a defect rate of 1 per thousand would not be acceptable.  I  have had numerous welders make the same statement you are, and swear they have  never experienced the failures I am worried about, then deliver welds that  failed after hot dip galvanizing!  In every case simply forcing them to use  the larger wire, with more current, welding faster, and yes not producing quite  as nice looking weld solved the problem.  We are talking amateur boat  builders here.  My advice WILL improve the chances of them building a boat  successfully.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    quatsein       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 09, 2002 12:19    AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: current price    of lead, Vancouver area   Well Gary, I have to disagree with most of all your    commentsin regards to MIG welding, except maybe the part about    thewelding machine quality, however I think it's more aboutpeople    buying too small a machine for the job. I can say this because I am    certified, and have tested in all processes and positions. The problems    that you speak of are not processrelated but technique    related.Steve--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:> I have a lot    of experience with bad MIG welds.  I owned a company that made parts    which were hot dip galvanized after welding.  A beautiful looking    weld would literally almost fall apart after galvanizing.  It was    very scary since these parts were intended to hang machinery from    overhead!  We determined that the problem was due to welding at too    low of a current, causing poor penetration.  In particular the    popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem.  It can't    carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds look    great.  We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials    from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga.    tubing.   We refuse to accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld    wire, and you can tell the difference by eye.  The welding companies    always argue with this because it is sometimes much more difficult to weld    out of position.  Once the welders get experienced though your    welding costs go down because the welding process is much quicker at the    higher current levels.> > A second problem is the inexpensive    MIG welding machines.  When a weld is started using a MIG gun the    current initially shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the    cold wire burns off and initiates the arc.  If the transformer in the    welding machine is too small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient    current causes a cold start, and a bad weld.  Worse yet, many of the    small MIG welders use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld    penetration than 0.035"> > I would weld a steel hull with    MIG without hesitation.  Using the right machine and the right    techniques you will get less heat distortion and a great reduction in man    hours by eliminating extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods    etc.  You also can weld out of position much easier than with    stick.> > Gary H. Lucas> >   -----    Original Message ----- >   From: quatsein    >   To: origamiboats@y...    >   Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 11:26 PM>      Subject: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area>    > >   John, Most first time welders are really    impressed with how>   easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih    MIG. The truth is the>   welds they make are more often then    not poor welds (lack of fusion).>   It's far more easy    for a novice welder to make a better quality weld>   with    stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's    best>   not to pay too much attention to salesmen and    store goer's, unless>   they can prove thier experience to    you. Ask the guys that are >   actually building metal    boats.> >   Steve Carlisle> > >    >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...>   To    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/------------------------    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->Buy Stock for $4and    no minimums.FREE Money 2002.http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
780|727|2002-04-09 08:24:12|Phillip Allen|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|I think it would be good to remember to whom Gary is speaking.  As I see it, Mr. Lucas is speaking to those of us who are NOT profesional welders.  I myself, will certinly need to learn as much as I can.  Please carry on Gary, my brain isn't full yet.      Phillip Allen  > > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...>   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->Buy Stock for $4and no minimums.FREE Money 2002.http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. <b>Do You Yahoo!?</b> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax |
781|727|2002-04-09 11:23:38|quatsein|Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area|The purpuse of my post was to make aware to the amatuer boatbuilder that the mig welding process can easily produce unnaceptable welds in the hands of an amatuer, and as Gary states, also in the hands of experienced welders. The stick welding process does not produce anywhere near the amount of poor welds, even in the hands of the less experienced. It however produces welds not nearly as nice in appearance as MIG. Welding is a hands on experience, and you get  better by doing, not by reading. The scary part is that a persons  homebuilt boat project, at the start, is likely to have many inferior  welds that could fail in a heavy sea. food for thought.  Steve   --- In origamiboats@y..., Phillip Allen <phillipdallen@y...> wrote: >  >  I think it would be good to remember to whom Gary is speaking.  As  I see it, Mr. Lucas is speaking to those of us who are NOT  profesional welders.  I myself, will certinly need to learn as much  as I can.  Please carry on Gary, my brain isn't full yet. >      Phillip Allen >  > >  > >  > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  >  >  > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax |
782|782|2002-04-09 15:37:44|carlmbentley|keel bulbs|all the talk of welding and lead prices just reminded me of an idea i  had a while back but never got around to posting.  when i first joined this group i read all the back posts, there was a  brief discussion on bulbs at the bottems of twin keels. i recall  brent asking if anyone knew where to get cheap used oxygen bottles.  couldn't the same goal be reached just by welding 2 pieces of 8 inch  X "length of the keel" steel into an "L" onto the inside and outside  of the keels, leaving the original bottem intact so as not to add  draft. and then just filling them with lead and capping both ends ?  front view                     /                               /                keel  --->    /                            _/                           |/_|         side view  \                /  \              /   \ ___________/    \ |||||||||/     <--- added weight    or something to that effect (hey it's hard to draw with keyboard  characters)  also you would have to be careful of protruding out from the front of  the keel, my father had welded stainless "skis" unto his bilge keels  to save the paint on the bottems, or more likely  to save  having to  paint them in the first place. but he left a little lip on both sides  just like a ski, for towing on or off beaches i guess ? He was always  snagging trash on them though, course he never complained about  having to pull a lobster trap off.  anyway just an idea from a novice, so feel free to point out the  glaring hole in my logic.|
783|783|2002-04-09 15:43:29|carlmbentley|huh|so much for my little drawing, the post got butchered. oh well, hopefully ya'll get the idea.|
784|782|2002-04-10 17:10:17|brentswain38|Re: keel bulbs|It's capping the ends in a  manner which gives a hydrodynamic ,  streamlined result which is the problem with pipe.. The rounded ends  of an oxygen bottle give a great front end. Tapering the trailing  ends to a point would take a bit of experimenting ( Maybe with spent  CO2 cartridges which are the same shape as oxygen bottles.)                                           Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "carlmbentley" <carlmbentley@y...> wrote: > all the talk of welding and lead prices just reminded me of an idea  i  > had a while back but never got around to posting. >  > when i first joined this group i read all the back posts, there was  a  > brief discussion on bulbs at the bottems of twin keels. i recall  > brent asking if anyone knew where to get cheap used oxygen bottles. >  > couldn't the same goal be reached just by welding 2 pieces of 8  inch  > X "length of the keel" steel into an "L" onto the inside and  outside  > of the keels, leaving the original bottem intact so as not to add  > draft. and then just filling them with lead and capping both ends ? >  > front view                     / >                               / >                keel  --->    / >                            _/ >                           |/_|       >  >  > side view >  > \                / >  \              / >   \ ___________/ >    \ |||||||||/     <--- added weight >  >  >  > or something to that effect (hey it's hard to draw with keyboard  > characters) >  > also you would have to be careful of protruding out from the front  of  > the keel, my father had welded stainless "skis" unto his bilge  keels  > to save the paint on the bottems, or more likely  to save  having  to  > paint them in the first place. but he left a little lip on both  sides  > just like a ski, for towing on or off beaches i guess ? He was  always  > snagging trash on them though, course he never complained about  > having to pull a lobster trap off. >  > anyway just an idea from a novice, so feel free to point out the  > glaring hole in my logic. |
785|767|2002-04-10 17:19:21|brentswain38|Re: Want to buy boat plans|Plans for the 31 footer are still $300 . Please send a postal money  order to Brent Swain Suite #427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River  BC Canada V9W8C9                                              Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > Brent, > I want to order plans for your 31' boat.  Is the price still $300?   Where do I send the money? >  > Gary H. Lucas |
786|786|2002-04-10 17:23:02|kahugaha|catalog for Swain's designs?|Is there such a thing? You know, little line drawings of plan and profile and accomodations, perhaps with a little descriptive text saying what the design goals were. For example, Bolger has "Different Boats" and Colvin has "Cruising Designs" and LF Herreshoff has "The Compleat Cruiser". Or maybe a web site like MacNaughton's http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/ ?  Thanks!|
787|763|2002-04-10 17:24:42|brentswain38|Re: new ideas|Fibreglass sheet is available in rolls. You could sand it and leave  it in . It can also be great for making models.                                          Brent Swain  --- In origamiboats@y..., "burr.halpern@a..." <burr.halpern@a...>  wrote:  > The idea of a ling narrow cruiser makes a lot of sense for a   hardchine boat. While  > not exactly an Origamiboat, in that it has internal athrwarship   framing, SteelStar by  > Yves Tanton   http://www.tantonyachts.com/ is a really great   example of this type.  >  > Jeff >  > robert44654 wrote: >  > > I am back again! > > I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is > > revelalutionary!  Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower > > hull models.  MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about > > 10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When > > you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that > > occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat.  What I did > > was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches   by 3  > > inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from > > the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length   or  > > less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter   circle,  > > and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a   straight  > > line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle. > > (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends).  then tape them together similair to > > the method of brent swain's model.  For the transom cut a > > semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment > > slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back.  The boat   seems  > > to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward > > or backward.  this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter > > bottom, which is good.  The shape of a cross section of the stern   of  > > the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from   side  > > to side of the boat. > > Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at   least  > > greater than 40 feet. > > 2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the   boat  > > not pointed) > > 3) multihulls > > > > OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8 > > foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water. > > Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end   to  > > end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely > > the outside)  the lines of each half hull lofted onto the   fiberglass  > > and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction > > methods of Brent with steel.  Blue board can be melted/dissolved   in  > > epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on > > this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not   the  > > ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of). > > Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what > > dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of > > fiberglass to the blue board is weak.  Solution: There may have to > > bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and > > the outside fiberglass bond to each other.  Probablely they could   be  > > joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either > > making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts   in  > > the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is > > wetted through the cuts. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-  unsubscribe@y...  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/|
788|768|2002-04-10 18:12:45|brentswain38|Re: Boat Insurance|None of my boats have had any problem passing survey or getting  insurance as far as I'm aware.Even the worst built steel boats are  lightyears stronger and less risk for an insurance company than a  stock fibreglass boat, something most insurance companies are aware  of.Several origami aluminium boats were recently built in Port Hardy  to Canada  Shipping Act standards for passenger vessels. When the  owners said they were using my methods , the surveyors said " We are  aware of the proccess, no problem."                                          Brent Swain                                        Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> wrote: > To get insurance for your boat, most companies require you to have  it  > surveyed, even if it is built of fibreglass, wood, metal, concrete,  > or whatever.  This way, both you and the company know and agree  what  > kind of condition the hull is in, the state of its safety  equipment,  > and most importantly, how much money it is worth should it need to  be  > replaced.  It should not be a problem insuring a steel boat, even  if  > it is home-built.  >  > The other kind of insurance, called "liability" is what you get to  > insure yourself in case you damage someone else's property or  person  > with your vessel.  The hull material in this case doesn't make much  > difference, unless your hull is made of something explosive!     >  > Is your insurance broker leery about insuring a metal boat? There  are  > thousands of insurance brokers out there who would be very happy to  > have your business, so if at first try you find your request for  > insurance turned down, simply "go across the street" to the next  > company, and you will likely have better luck. >  > Steel is not an uncommon material in the marine industry, of course- -- > look at all the steel ships out there!   >  > Alex >  >  >  >  > .  Liabilit--- In origamiboats@y..., "claudepoitras"  > <claude.poitras@s...> wrote: > > I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. > > If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get  > > proper insurance?  Are insurance company not leary of back-yard  > > builders? |
789|786|2002-04-10 22:58:59|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: catalog for Swain's designs?|Brent's book may answer some of the questions you have.   His philosophy about boatbuilding is very clear throughout the text.  His book is available directly from him, at the address in the last posting (address is also located in the files section under "contact information", or write Brent directly via email at brentswain38@... .  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: kahugaha <kahugaha@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 12:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] catalog for Swain's designs?   > > Is there such a thing? You know, little line drawings > of plan and profile and accomodations, perhaps with a > little descriptive text saying what the design goals > were. For example, Bolger has "Different Boats" and > Colvin has "Cruising Designs" and LF Herreshoff has > "The Compleat Cruiser". Or maybe a web site like > MacNaughton's http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/ ? > > Thanks! > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
790|790|2002-04-11 12:04:47|winslow59|Visiting Vancouver Island |I will be on Vancouver Island with some free time, and a car, Friday,  25 April. I hope to have an opportunity to see some examples of Swain  design sailboats (complete or under construction).  Are there any group members available to show their boats and answer  questions from someone hoping to get started within the next 12  months?  -Markus winslow59@...|
793|793|2002-04-13 11:22:54|Stephen Wandling|Welder needed in Vancouver BC|I need  a welder to assist me in completing a 34' steel sailboat hull  which is now in Richmond, BC.  There are numerous things to be done, but  a significant item is grinding and rewelding the underwater seams, which  may be about a weeks work.  I supply the welder and consumables, as well  as the grinder and disks.  Work to start immediately.  Respond directly to me at stephenw@... or call (604) 649-1418.   References will be required.  Stephen Wandling|
794|794|2002-04-14 23:42:56|claudepoitras|Origami 36 design|I plan on building a 36 foot Origami boat in the next few year. I like the curved deck shape of the (sharler junk) boat in photo. I wonder how he managed that. Would the boat be more sea worthy? I would like my boat built like that with a maine and mizen. This should make sail handling easer because the sail are smaller. I also would like to have an aft cabin. Is this unrealistic on a 36  foot boat?  Can it be built from the basic plans?|
795|795|2002-04-15 00:57:47|buckrogers1234|sail area|Would anyone know the total sail area of the Swain 36,  so the  sail area displacement ratio can be calculated. Thanks                                            Brian|
796|796|2002-04-17 20:21:11|greenguy2ca|Ownership|Some of us are building boats on other people's property.  Just  wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone  seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back  and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to the  question of at what time, during the building process do you register  the boat so you do in fact establish ownership.  Thanks  Gary|
797|796|2002-04-18 05:26:47|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Ownership|Gary writes:   > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back   That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. Anyone who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, knows how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be unlikely to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind.   The fact is that people's lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone else's life.   It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and straightforward.  My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone else has already built a steel boat.  That way, you have some background on previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to expect, since he has already rented it out before.  In other words, follow in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers!  If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my building site;  what are your instincts about the owner of the land?  Does he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land?  Be clear about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take into account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to a steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to jump at the first opportunity.  It isn't like everyone is vying for boatbuilding space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to see the place.  Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast their attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should also endeavour to check around for information about the place .  Locals Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive or nosey-seeming.  News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in these parts.  What can you do to prove ownership?  Even tacked together, your boat is simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry there is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard.  A creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk of steel can prove otherwise.  The word of the land owner is worth nothing in this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel to others in order to protect it...  Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of registering personal property.  In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) can be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership.  I don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, and I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've taken out a licence.  This may or may not be true for the USA.  The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she can be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be.  Getting a bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of moving it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull which can take many months or sometimes years to put together.  Many origami boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much complaint from neighbours.  This is may be because the construction of the origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or it goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"!  Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc rich primer) steel we can get here in Canada.   I'll leave it to him to tell if he likes.  It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre" on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and concerns listed above.  A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles of scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting out would round it out nicely.  It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood.  The owners would benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at the best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and guidance on hand as needed.  A person could arrive by air and leave by sea in their own boat if they got it done on site.  What do you think?  Would the idea "float", so to speak?  Alex      ----- Original Message ----- From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership   > Some of us are building boats on other people's property.  Just > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to the > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > Thanks > > Gary > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
798|796|2002-04-18 13:28:45|Joe Casey|Re: Ownership|Hi Alex,  Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one.  You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also available in the US?  Regards, Joe      ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:27 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership   > Gary writes: > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. Anyone > who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, knows > how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often > leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be unlikely > to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind.   The fact is that people's > lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must > protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone > else's life.   It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the > issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and > straightforward. > > My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone else > has already built a steel boat.  That way, you have some background on > previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to > expect, since he has already rented it out before.  In other words, follow > in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! > > If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my > building site;  what are your instincts about the owner of the land?  Does > he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land?  Be clear > about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take into > account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to a > steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to jump > at the first opportunity.  It isn't like everyone is vying for boatbuilding > space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to > see the place.  Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast their > attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should > also endeavour to check around for information about the place .  Locals > Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive > or nosey-seeming.  News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in > these parts. > > What can you do to prove ownership?  Even tacked together, your boat is > simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry there > is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard.  A > creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of > value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk of > steel can prove otherwise.  The word of the land owner is worth nothing in > this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel > to others in order to protect it... > > Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself > concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a > licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of > registering personal property.  In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) can > be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's > measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. I > don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, and > I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've > taken out a licence.  This may or may not be true for the USA. > > The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical > origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she can > be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be.  Getting a > bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of moving > it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull > which can take many months or sometimes years to put together.  Many origami > boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much > complaint from neighbours.  This is may be because the construction of the > origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or it > goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! > > Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an > unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc rich > primer) steel we can get here in Canada.   I'll leave it to him to tell if > he likes. > > It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre" > on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come > build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and > concerns listed above.  A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles of > scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting > out would round it out nicely.  It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, > in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard > School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood.  The owners would > benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at the > best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and > guidance on hand as needed.  A person could arrive by air and leave by sea > in their own boat if they got it done on site. > > What do you think?  Would the idea "float", so to speak? > > Alex > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property.  Just > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to the > > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > > > Thanks > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
799|799|2002-04-18 13:50:58|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: pre-primed steel|Yes, some members had mentioned once having trouble sourcing wheel-abraded, shot-blasted, pre-primed steel in the US, but this may not be the case in every state.  Also, there may be some pre-primed steels that are not so extensively treated, I don't know.  I would not recommend it if if were only lightly primed.  The advantage of the kind we can get here is that it avoids the need for sandblasting the hull-- a messy and expen$ive job which is often a barrier/stumbling block for many home-built boats (especially if you are in a residential neighborhood).  The zinc-rich primer available here is tough as nails and makes a fine base for subsequent layers of epoxy.  Only the welding seams need to be ground and primed by hand, but thankfully there aren't that many on origami style hulls.  Alex  ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Casey <jcasey@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership   > Hi Alex, > > Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one. > > You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also > available in the US? > > Regards, > Joe > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:27 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > Gary writes: > > > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > > That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. > Anyone > > who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, > knows > > how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often > > leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be > unlikely > > to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind.   The fact is that people's > > lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must > > protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone > > else's life.   It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the > > issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and > > straightforward. > > > > My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone > else > > has already built a steel boat.  That way, you have some background on > > previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to > > expect, since he has already rented it out before.  In other words, follow > > in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! > > > > If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my > > building site;  what are your instincts about the owner of the land? Does > > he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land?  Be > clear > > about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take > into > > account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to > a > > steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to > jump > > at the first opportunity.  It isn't like everyone is vying for > boatbuilding > > space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to > > see the place.  Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast > their > > attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should > > also endeavour to check around for information about the place .  Locals > > Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive > > or nosey-seeming.  News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in > > these parts. > > > > What can you do to prove ownership?  Even tacked together, your boat is > > simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry > there > > is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard.  A > > creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of > > value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk > of > > steel can prove otherwise.  The word of the land owner is worth nothing in > > this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel > > to others in order to protect it... > > > > Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself > > concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a > > licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of > > registering personal property.  In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) > can > > be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's > > measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. > I > > don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, > and > > I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've > > taken out a licence.  This may or may not be true for the USA. > > > > The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical > > origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she > can > > be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be.  Getting a > > bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of > moving > > it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull > > which can take many months or sometimes years to put together.  Many > origami > > boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much > > complaint from neighbours.  This is may be because the construction of the > > origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or > it > > goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! > > > > Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an > > unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc > rich > > primer) steel we can get here in Canada.   I'll leave it to him to tell if > > he likes. > > > > It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding > Centre" > > on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come > > build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and > > concerns listed above.  A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles > of > > scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting > > out would round it out nicely.  It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, > > in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard > > School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood.  The owners > would > > benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at > the > > best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and > > guidance on hand as needed.  A person could arrive by air and leave by sea > > in their own boat if they got it done on site. > > > > What do you think?  Would the idea "float", so to speak? > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > > > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property.  Just > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to the > > > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > > > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
800|796|2002-04-18 18:50:28|Doug Barnard|Re: Ownership|I'll admit to being freaked out about this, as well. The idea of getting halfway done, then having your landlord give you the boot, well, it sure isn't pleasant. This (and transportation) was probably one of the main reasons that I scrapped the idea of building an origami trawler. To pull it off, I'd have to in sight of water. Waterfront space in So. Cal. is extremely dear, so that would put an end to any kind of relaxed building plans. Also, you can't work on your boat in the water in most marinas, and there's really nowhere to just anchor out. Luckily, I have a side driveway that would make an acceptable site for one of Brent's plans. I'll probably have to take the boat to completion there, rather than launching earlier and getting some enjoyment out of it.  It's great that the origami hulls go together so fast, but I don't think that every builder needs to be hell-bent-for-leather about getting over the horizon. Enjoying the building process, and being thoughtful about the systems will probably get you much farther ahead. I have to always remind myself: less haste, more speed. Having just finished a hull-up re-design of a 20' go-fast I/O, I can look back on numerous pleasant sessions of "driveway cruising", sitting in the cockpit, with a shot and a beer at sunset, scheming out the next moves with my wife.  Back to the thread: Personally, I'd suggest a written agreement between you and the landlord. If it says that the purpose is for boatbuilding, that says something about finding a boat on the property. Then, as soon as the hull is tacked together, go ahead and register it. Here in California, you basically go down to the DMV and fill out paperwork. There are also services that will help you to get a Certificate of Documentation, that supercedes state registration:  http://www.captaingreg.net/indexds.html  Besides, unless your boat is painted, most folks would probably want it hauled away, rather than try to acquire it!  db|
801|799|2002-04-18 19:19:46|Joe Casey|Re: pre-primed steel|Thanks for that information Alex. I am in southern Louisiana and my local port, the Port of New Orleans, is one of the largest destinations of foreign steel in the US, at least it was before our return to protectionism. If there is interest I will let the list know the results of my search for this specialty steel and it would help if you could tell me where the steel you have access to is made and a more specific brand name or content specification of the coating.  I wonder why sandblasting is expensive. Is it because of the air volumes necessitating a huge compressor or is it because there is a reason the hull can't be divided up into smaller sections and sandblasted and painted in manageable pieces or is an expensive medium, other than sand necessary? I can visualize the mess with no assistance.  Best, Joe          ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] pre-primed steel   > Yes, some members had mentioned once having trouble sourcing wheel-abraded, > shot-blasted, pre-primed steel in the US, but this may not be the case in > every state.  Also, there may be some pre-primed steels that are not so > extensively treated, I don't know.  I would not recommend it if if were only > lightly primed.  The advantage of the kind we can get here is that it avoids > the need for sandblasting the hull-- a messy and expen$ive job which is > often a barrier/stumbling block for many home-built boats (especially if you > are in a residential neighborhood).  The zinc-rich primer available here is > tough as nails and makes a fine base for subsequent layers of epoxy.  Only > the welding seams need to be ground and primed by hand, but thankfully there > aren't that many on origami style hulls. > > Alex > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Casey <jcasey@...> > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:11 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one. > > > > You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also > > available in the US? > > > > Regards, > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex & Kim Christie <origamiboats@...> > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:27 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > > > > Gary writes: > > > > > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > > > > That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. > > Anyone > > > who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, > > knows > > > how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often > > > leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be > > unlikely > > > to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind.   The fact is that > people's > > > lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must > > > protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone > > > else's life.   It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about > the > > > issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and > > > straightforward. > > > > > > My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone > > else > > > has already built a steel boat.  That way, you have some background on > > > previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to > > > expect, since he has already rented it out before.  In other words, > follow > > > in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! > > > > > > If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my > > > building site;  what are your instincts about the owner of the land? > Does > > > he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land?  Be > > clear > > > about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take > > into > > > account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes > to > > a > > > steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to > > jump > > > at the first opportunity.  It isn't like everyone is vying for > > boatbuilding > > > space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times > to > > > see the place.  Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast > > their > > > attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should > > > also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals > > > Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too > intrusive > > > or nosey-seeming.  News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in > > > these parts. > > > > > > What can you do to prove ownership?  Even tacked together, your boat is > > > simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry > > there > > > is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard.  A > > > creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything > of > > > value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that > hunk > > of > > > steel can prove otherwise.  The word of the land owner is worth nothing > in > > > this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his > chattel > > > to others in order to protect it... > > > > > > Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself > > > concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a > > > licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of > > > registering personal property.  In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) > > can > > > be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's > > > measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. > > I > > > don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, > > and > > > I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever > I've > > > taken out a licence.  This may or may not be true for the USA. > > > > > > The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical > > > origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she > > can > > > be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be.  Getting a > > > bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of > > moving > > > it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull > > > which can take many months or sometimes years to put together.  Many > > origami > > > boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much > > > complaint from neighbours.  This is may be because the construction of > the > > > origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or > > it > > > goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! > > > > > > Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an > > > unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc > > rich > > > primer) steel we can get here in Canada.   I'll leave it to him to tell > if > > > he likes. > > > > > > It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding > > Centre" > > > on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can > come > > > build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and > > > concerns listed above.  A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy > piles > > of > > > scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for > fitting > > > out would round it out nicely.  It could be a kind of boatbuilding > school, > > > in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay > Shipyard > > > School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood.  The owners > > would > > > benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at > > the > > > best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice > and > > > guidance on hand as needed.  A person could arrive by air and leave by > sea > > > in their own boat if they got it done on site. > > > > > > What do you think?  Would the idea "float", so to speak? > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: greenguy2ca <GPREB@...> > > > To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Ownership > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are building boats on other people's property.  Just > > > > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > > > > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back > > > > and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to the > > > > question of at what time, during the building process do you register > > > > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
802|796|2002-04-18 23:48:00|Claude Poitras|Re: Ownership|        I  would love that idea, very much.  Being in Alberta, I am far from the  sea.   <b><font face="French Script MT" color="#0000ff" size="6">Claude  Poitras</font></b>      -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Alex & Kim Christie    [mailto:origamiboats@...]<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 18, 2002 3:28    AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re:    [origamiboats] OwnershipGary writes:>    wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone>    seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat    backThat is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered    myself. Anyonewho has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an    empty lot, knowshow undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the    unsuspecting, oftenleaving the renter in the poorest position, since a    landlord may be unlikelyto tip his renter that trouble is in the    wind.   The fact is that people'slives change more quickly than    one expects, and the renter of space mustprotect him or herself from    problems brought about by change in someoneelse's life.   It    would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about theissue, but some of    the preventative measures are fairly logical andstraightforward.My    first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone    elsehas already built a steel boat.  That way, you have some    background onprevious experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows    what toexpect, since he has already rented it out before.  In other    words, followin the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers!If that is    not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing mybuilding    site;  what are your instincts about the owner of the land?     Doeshe seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his    land?  Be clearabout what you will be doing to build your boat (some    owners don't take intoaccount factors such as welding flash and grinder    noise when saying yes to asteel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and    don't feel pressured to jumpat the first opportunity.  It isn't like    everyone is vying for boatbuildingspace on land all at once, so be choosy,    even going back several times tosee the place.  Collect several    possibilities and compare and contrast theirattributes. It may simply come    down to "gut instinct", though one shouldalso endeavour to check around    for information about the place .  LocalsKnow Everything in rural    areas, so ask around, without being too intrusiveor nosey-seeming.     News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least inthese    parts.What can you do to prove ownership?  Even tacked together,    your boat issimply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without    registry thereis no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a    yard.  Acreditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider    everything ofvalue on that property under seizure, unless the alleged    owners that hunk ofsteel can prove otherwise.  The word of the land    owner is worth nothing inthis case, since the bank might think he is    trying to farm out his chattelto others in order to protect    it...Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find    yourselfconcerned about its security, document it with photographs, and    obtain alicence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a    means ofregistering personal property.  In BC a marine "K" number    (eg, 14K 3779) canbe obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with    the hull'smeasurements, and this would help regarding establishing your    ownership.  Idon't believe the hull has to be finished in order to    get the K number, andI've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual    existence whenever I'vetaken out a licence.  This may or may not be    true for the USA.The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact    that the typicalorigami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is    planned well, she canbe launched very early and taken to a better spot if    need be.  Getting abare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives    one the option of movingit to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a    traditional steel hullwhich can take many months or sometimes years to put    together.  Many origamiboats have been put together right beside an    urban house without muchcomplaint from neighbours.  This is may be    because the construction of theorigami boat doesn't look very "industrial"    compared to framed boats, or itgoes together so fast they "don't know what    hit'em"!Brent has a great story about this regarding his own    experiences with anunanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy    pre-primed (zinc richprimer) steel we can get here in Canada.      I'll leave it to him to tell ifhe likes.It has been my wish for    some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre"on an acreage close to    the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can comebuild boats in secure    and pleasant surroundings without the problems andconcerns listed    above.  A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles ofscrap    stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fittingout    would round it out nicely.  It could be a kind of boatbuilding    school,in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay    ShipyardSchool (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood.     The owners wouldbenefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they    arrive, all at thebest prices, and would end up with a boat "built to    spec" with advice andguidance on hand as needed.  A person could    arrive by air and leave by seain their own boat if they got it done on    site.What do you think?  Would the idea "float", so to    speak?Alex----- Original Message -----From:    greenguy2ca <GPREB@...>To:    <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:20    PMSubject: [origamiboats] Ownership> Some of us are    building boats on other people's property.  Just> wondering if the    owner of the property got into a bind and someone> seized his property    would you have a problem getting your boat back> and how would you    prove it was yours?   This brings me to the> question of at    what time, during the building process do you register> the boat so you    do in fact establish ownership.>> Thanks>>    Gary>>>> To Post a message, send it    to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> To Unsubscribe, send a    blank message to:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>>    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>>To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
803|796|2002-04-19 00:26:25|Jim Phillips|Re: Ownership|About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of land that is in the midst of some form of legal turmoil:  I keep all my receipts during boat construction and maintenance.  The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) are legally mine due to these documents that register a sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer.  It has nothing to with any government boat registration bureau, as it's not yet a boat.  "It's just a chunk of steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership."  On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being constructed out of aluminium with the origami method?  I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would like to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls.  Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard.   Jim.   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com|
804|796|2002-04-19 07:55:26|james floyd|Re: Ownership|Hello Jim,      I have been working on designing an origami aluminum cat for several months now. It is to be 40'LOA and 24 beam. I hired a Naval Architect who posts on this board to help me. I sent him my hull model and he did some analysis and it looks right to him. If all goes well I'll buy some plate later this summer and get started.      It would be nice to have somebody else to bounce ideas around with.  my e-mail is  jamesfloyd@...  where are you located? I am in north Alabama.  Have you had any luck getting the hulls thin enough?                                      James Floyd  --- Jim Phillips <jim_cl@...> wrote:  > About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of > land that is in the midst of some form of legal > turmoil: >  > I keep all my receipts during boat construction and > maintenance.  The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) > are > legally mine due to these documents that register a > sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer.  It > has > nothing to with any government boat registration > bureau, as it's not yet a boat.  "It's just a chunk > of > steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership." >  > On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being > constructed out of aluminium with the origami > method?  > I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would > like > to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls. >  > Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little > time as possible in a boatyard. >   > Jim. >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/|
805|799|2002-04-19 17:44:45|Doug Barnard|Source for lumber|I did a little googling, and came up with East-West Urban Forest Products. They use trees that are cut down in cities, and make them into lumber. Got their URL from the Rainforest Coalition, so it's gotta be okay.  Really low prices! Beautiful looking wood, too. They are about a 2 hour drive away from me, so not too much of a problem to make a wood run.  http://www.eastwestwood.com/main_flash.htm  db|
806|796|2002-04-19 18:35:40|lon wells|Re: Ownership|In the US when storing a item of great value, it would be advisable to file a ICC form.  That would establish ownership and first lien rights.  They are available at most legal forms stores. I managed a project where we had to store a bridge (6 million) and I filed ICC forms for ownership of the bridge.  Save reciepts for tax and ownership reasons.   --- Jim Phillips <jim_cl@...> wrote:  > About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of > land that is in the midst of some form of legal > turmoil: >  > I keep all my receipts during boat construction and > maintenance.  The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) > are > legally mine due to these documents that register a > sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer.  It > has > nothing to with any government boat registration > bureau, as it's not yet a boat.  "It's just a chunk > of > steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership." >  > On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being > constructed out of aluminium with the origami > method?  > I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would > like > to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls. >  > Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little > time as possible in a boatyard. >   > Jim. >  >  > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/|
807|796|2002-04-21 10:48:12|Gord Schnell|Re: Ownership|I chose to register our boat when it was just a hull and decks. No cabintops, keel, skeg etc. (maybe 2 mths. into the project). No problem. Gord  greenguy2ca wrote:  >  > Some of us are building boats on other people's property. > Just > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and > someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your > boat back > and how would you prove it was yours?   This brings me to > the > question of at what time, during the building process do > you register > the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. >  > Thanks >  > Gary >  >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                        ADVERTISEMENT >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
808|796|2002-04-21 11:48:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Ownership|Tools and equipment as well as a boat could possibly be seized in  payment of a propery owner's debt because the bailiffs think they  belong to him.  In industry in the UK it is not unknown for customers  who have part paid for an item of plant to have labels fixed to the  said plant while it is still being worked on in the suppliers factory  stating that they are the owners of it.  Ted Stone|
809|809|2002-04-21 16:58:08|robertbrucejames|full keel|I am thinking (triing anyway,hope noth'n breaks)of a full  keel,flush deck sloop in the 25-30 foot range in the style of the  28'bristol channel cutter.  Any ideas out there?????????????????|
810|810|2002-04-24 11:38:52|Gary H. Lucas|Brent Swain boats in Seattle area|           All, I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a redeye home on  Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a Brent Swain boat while I am  there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to  Seattle every three months or so for a consulting job. A future date would be  okay too.  Thanks, Gary H. Lucas|
811|809|2002-04-24 18:08:48|brentswain38|Re: full keel|25 to 30 foot range is a bit too small for a flush decker . It would  be tiny inside, or have too much freeboard, and thus be top heavy.   There's no real advantage to a full length keel and many  disadvantages. The aft end of a full length keel is a real  inaccessible rust trap in a metal boat ,and a lot of extra weight in  the stern where you need it least.                                        Brent Swain  --- In origamiboats@y..., "robertbrucejames" <robertbrucejames@y...>  wrote:  >   I am thinking (triing anyway,hope noth'n breaks)of a full  > keel,flush deck sloop in the 25-30 foot range in the style of the  > 28'bristol channel cutter.  Any ideas out there????????????????? |
812|810|2002-04-24 18:12:26|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area|I'm unaware of any in the Seattle area . Dale Deforest of Deforest  Construction in NE Olympia has a 36 footer and knows where there is a  31 footer in the area, called "Quarante Dos." There is a 36 footer  called "Island Breeze" in the area, possibly in Port Ludlow area.                                             Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: >  All, > I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a  redeye home on Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a  Brent Swain boat while I am there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of  his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to Seattle every three months or  so for a consulting job. A future date would be okay too.  >  > Thanks, >  > Gary H. Lucas |
813|810|2002-04-24 19:06:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area|          Thanks Brent, I think I'll try to contact Dale   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    brentswain38    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:12    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain    boats in Seattle area   I'm unaware of any in the    Seattle area . Dale Deforest of Deforest Construction in NE Olympia has a    36 footer and knows where there is a 31 footer in the area, called    "Quarante Dos." There is a 36 footer called "Island Breeze" in the area,    possibly in Port Ludlow    area.                                               Brent Swain--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:>     All,> I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a    redeye home on Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a    Brent Swain boat while I am there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of    his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to Seattle every three months or so    for a consulting job. A future date would be okay too. > >    Thanks,> > Gary H. Lucas------------------------    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->Buy Stock for $4and    no minimums.FREE Money 2002.http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
814|810|2002-04-25 07:18:13|robert anthony|Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area|  Brent, I have a question for you?  I have experimented a bit more with cardboard models.  Danny Greene designed a boat (multichine in steel) with a flat bottom. It has 2 chines on each hull half and no chine in the centerline, at least not below the waterline, because it is a flat bottom boat.  The idea is to increase useable living space. ( You walk on the flat bottom.)  I believe his design is 34.5 feet in length, and he has a flush deck.  Your design easily lends itself to this addapation.  ln a model I built I even droped the floor about 9 inches.  The model seems to be extremely rigid. There appears to be little penalty for using 1/2 inch or thicker steel plate, except for a small increase in wetted surface area and it may save the need for stiffening the hull below the waterline.  I can send picture if you request  <b>Do You Yahoo!?</b> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more|
815|810|2002-04-25 19:45:46|brentswain38|Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area|If the bottom is replacing ballast, it would work out in 1/2 inch  plate as long as it's flat. It's pretty hard to put any curve in 1/2  inch plate . Plate further up should be 3/16th .                  Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., robert anthony <robert44654@y...> wrote: >  >   >  Brent, I have a question for you?  I have experimented a bit more  with cardboard models.  Danny Greene designed a boat (multichine in  steel) with a flat bottom. It has 2 chines on each hull half and no  chine in the centerline, at least not below the waterline, because it  is a flat bottom boat.  The idea is to increase useable living space.  ( You walk on the flat bottom.)  I believe his design is 34.5 feet in  length, and he has a flush deck.  Your design easily lends itself to  this addapation.  ln a model I built I even droped the floor about 9  inches.  The model seems to be extremely rigid. There appears to be  little penalty for using 1/2 inch or thicker steel plate, except for  a small increase in wetted surface area and it may save the need for  stiffening the hull below the waterline.  I can send picture if you  request >   >  >  >  > --------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more |
816|816|2002-04-25 19:47:39|brentswain38|Book Title |I'll be changing the title of my book to "ORGAMI METAL BOATBUILDING'   Same book , different title.                                        Brent Swain|
817|817|2002-04-27 19:48:34|Doug Barnard|Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook|As I embark on the adventure of building a cruising sailboat, I've been doing a bit of reading. Like my shelves are crammed with row after row of books about boats. I've just started reading the "Cruising Handbook", and I can say that even jaded ol' me is very impressed. Calder's ideas seem to fit well into the Origami style, though much of the book is taken up with compensating for the inherent weaknesses of modern fiberglass boats.  I'm a total novice, so I want to be lead by the hand. Calder manages to do this without taking a "high-and-mighty" style, more just saying what he prefers and pointing out the weaknesses of other designs. Many other cruising books assume that the reader wants to instantly sail around world, sheets clamped in their teeth as they brave Cape Horn. Calder figures that you want a comfortable boat that you can travel around in, maybe not designed solely for crossing oceans.  A worthwhile addition to the boat builder's library!  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin|
818|817|2002-04-27 20:13:02|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook|Thanks for the mini book review, Doug.  I'd like to invite anyone else who has interesting books and resources to review to go ahead and contribute. There are many resources out there, some valid, some not so valid, and it would be interesting to mull these over as a group.  Myself, I am in the midst of reading Len Sheman's "Arctic Odyssey", an account of a west to east trip through the arctic northwest passage in a small Origami boat.  When I am done I'll post something about it.  I am also working on a critical analysis of the book "Steel Away", by Sheila Moir.  It is solely about traditional steel boatbuilding, but may yield something of interest for the origami crowd.  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 4:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook   > As I embark on the adventure of building a cruising sailboat, I've been > doing a bit of reading. Like my shelves are crammed with row after row of > books about boats. I've just started reading the "Cruising Handbook", and I > can say that even jaded ol' me is very impressed. Calder's ideas seem to fit > well into the Origami style, though much of the book is taken up with > compensating for the inherent weaknesses of modern fiberglass boats. > > I'm a total novice, so I want to be lead by the hand. Calder manages to do > this without taking a "high-and-mighty" style, more just saying what he > prefers and pointing out the weaknesses of other designs. Many other > cruising books assume that the reader wants to instantly sail around world, > sheets clamped in their teeth as they brave Cape Horn. Calder figures that > you want a comfortable boat that you can travel around in, maybe not > designed solely for crossing oceans. > > A worthwhile addition to the boat builder's library! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
819|819|2002-04-28 14:24:56|Doug Barnard|Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW!|There's been a discussion going on over on the Trawler World List about the exhaust for the diesel exiting mid-hull, underwater. I was wondering if it might be incorporated into an Origami hull design. I think that a steel pipe or enclosure would be substituted for the fiberglass pipe mentioned. Oh, and no "walk-through"!  I'd be worried about back pressure when the boat is stopped; the potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe effect. An Italian manufacturer overcame this by installing additional ports out the side at water level. Reports are also that there are fuel savings when motoring, as the exhaust bubbles reduce the friction. The big advantage is a quieter motor with no muffler, and less fume/soot concentration.  I'll order the magazine mentioned on Monday, and give a look at the system.  Here's the original post (used with permission):   > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trawler-world-list@... > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@...]On Behalf Of Arild Jensen > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:38 AM > To: trawler-world-list@... > Subject: TWL: Underwater exhaust for noise supression > > > > I can't recall now if it was this list or the live aboard list > that had a thread > going about underwater exhaust. However, today I saw an 86 footer > which has the > main exhaust in the bottom of the engine room right next to the engine. > > According to the builder this was a design evolved by their naval > architect some > years ago and which they have used on all their boats since then. > The exhaust > consist of a 12 inch diameter fibreglass tube glassed right into > the bottom just > like you do with a bow thruster tunnel. except this tube is aimed > downwards not > out the side. And no it doesn't have a seacock. The tube is > carried up to a point > above the waterline. > > The Vee cylinder configuration  engines have a "y" shaped stainless steel > exhaust manifold with flexible bellows style connectors that > leads into the > turbo chargers with additional stainless steel tubing leading to > the point of the > water injection point, which in turn connects to the  fibreglass tube. > The cooling water injection is a 4 inch fibreglass pipe situated > above the > waterline near the top of the galss tube. The exhaust line rises > in an arch to the > deckhead before curving downward. The arch provides a walk through  for > access to the outboard sides of the engines. > > Careful shaping of the outer edge at the bottom ensures clean > water flow and > they have even measured a negative pressure at speed. this would > indicate the > flow of water past the  mouth of the exhaust creates a suction > to assist in > scavenging the exhaust gasses when the engines are developing full power. > Apparently all the major engine builders have checked this > configuration and find > no problems with  it in terms of  back pressure. I recall someone > saying this was > a major objection to such an arrangement. > > Apart from the noise suppressions, this design is good for mid-ship engine > location since it eliminates the long exhaust tube run aft to the > transom so > common in traditional designs. Frees up a lot of space which is > now usable for > other things.  It also makes for a clean,  noise and fume free > swim platform. > With the engine mass centered midships you can also have finer > stern lines > since you do not need as much buoyancy right at the stern. > To see an example of this design look at the Feb 2002 issue of Show boats > which featured a vessel ccalled "Watermark". This is a sistership > to the one I was > looking at.  Just some food for thought. > > regards > Arild   ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin|
820|820|2002-04-29 20:46:19|gjm123smau|Difference in price between  Aluminum  vs steel .|Has anyone compared the differnce with Ali to Steel.  The overall cost rust proofing and on going maintance vs intial cost  of Ali?  Weight savings with Ali, what advantage if any ?  Regards Graeme|
821|732|2002-05-01 13:32:54|richytill|Lead|I have located a 4000 lb lead keel with about 300 lbs of extras.   Vanvouver BC area.  1.5% antimony.  Just finished sealing of the  ballast tank on my project so it's no good to me at this point.  If  anyone can use it?  rt|
822|732|2002-05-02 03:31:08|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Lead|          How much?       ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    richytill       <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 01, 2002 10:32    AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Lead   I have located a 4000 lb lead keel with about 300 lbs of    extras.  Vanvouver BC area.  1.5% antimony.  Just finished    sealing of the ballast tank on my project so it's no good to me at this    point.  If anyone can use it?  rtTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
823|823|2002-05-02 20:56:07|Doug Barnard|Isolation Transformer|I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's the opinion of the list?  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin|
824|824|2002-05-02 21:34:28|aklove2u|Rigs|I'm interested in  hearing from all the Brent boat owners who have  gone for a bigger stick than the called for 46' one. Whether when  sailing other Brent boats or talking to other owners have you noticed  a difference and if so what?  And what are the luff and foot  measurements and any other relevant subject matter.  Greg|
825|825|2002-05-03 20:07:41|richytill|engine|A new Farryman R30M (22 hp) with Hurth drive has just become  available for someone who is building smaller steel boat or requires  less power.  The asking price seems to be around $5000.  This is just  North West of Vancouver BC. rt|
826|823|2002-05-05 02:04:32|T & D Cain|Re: Isolation Transformer|        Depends  on the definition and the realisation in hardware. Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or  function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous from  input to output in a way which involves a metallic  connection. In  other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any  frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero, then  you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally with that  proposition). Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same  argument as one uses resistance. Pure  galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic double wound  transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux linking the  primary and secondary. At  mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is  proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is  heavy. At  current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient and  very light (mass). One  needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator, and  the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or what  the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the ship side  of the device. There  are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most fundamental is the  double wound or conventional transformer which has no active electronics and no  moving parts. Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of the  ballast. Terry     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Doug Barnard    [mailto:dbarnard@...]<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2002    10:27<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Isolation TransformerI've heard that    an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvaniccorrosion at bay.    Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What'sthe opinion of    the list?______________________________________________Doug    Barnardsoon-to-be beginning constructionOrigami Steel Swain 40 Aft    CabinTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
827|823|2002-05-05 04:07:45|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Isolation Transformer|The 36 footer I just visited with fellow list member Markus simply uses zincs, as far as I know, and has had no problems at all, despite being tied up to a dock with many different kinds of boats.  Hardly any wastage of the zincs over long periods of time.  But I never asked if they had anything special they used in their electrical system -- I will!  Oh, and keep an eye out for photos of that trip -- I'll be posting them shortly.  We saw 4 Swain 36's;  3 on land, and one in the water.  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer   > I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic > corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's > the opinion of the list? > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
828|823|2002-05-05 11:47:48|Doug Barnard|Re: Isolation Transformer|        Uh,  can you please be specific as to products and applications? Know of any ways to  set one up on the cheap? Whew! I better refill the coffee before I try to read  the post again! Now where did I put those spare brain  cells?....    ______________________________________________Doug  Barnardsoon-to-be beginning constructionOrigami Steel Swain 40 Aft  Cabin      -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> T & D Cain    [mailto:thcain@...]<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:03    PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> RE:    [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer   Depends on the definition and the realisation in    hardware.   Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or    function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous from    input to output in a way which involves a metallic    connection.   In    other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any    frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero,    then you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally with    that proposition).   Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same    argument as one uses resistance.   Pure    galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic double wound    transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux linking the    primary and secondary.   At    mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is    proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is    heavy.   At    current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient and    very light (mass).   One    needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator, and    the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or what    the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the ship side    of the device.   There    are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most fundamental is the    double wound or conventional transformer which has no active electronics and    no moving parts.   Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of the    ballast.   Terry        -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Doug Barnard      [mailto:dbarnard@...]<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2002      10:27<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>      [origamiboats] Isolation TransformerI've heard that      an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvaniccorrosion at      bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What'sthe      opinion of the      list?______________________________________________Doug      Barnardsoon-to-be beginning constructionOrigami Steel Swain 40 Aft      CabinTo Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service. To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
829|823|2002-05-06 06:35:20|T & D Cain|Re: Isolation Transformer|        Sorry  Doug, I  shall do a bit of trawling on the current offerings for "Galvanic Isolators" and  when that is done and time permits, I'll post again. Essence: Keeping the metal boat from being a part of land-based power  systems stray currents. Doesn't matter a DRA (dead rat's ass) if you are not  connected to shore. Terry  (Electrical & Electronics-type person with steel round-bilge 40ft Adams  centre cockpit boat approaching completion --- slowly!)     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Doug Barnard    [mailto:dbarnard@...]<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 6 May 2002    1:19<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> RE:    [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer   Uh,    can you please be specific as to products and applications? Know of any ways    to set one up on the cheap? Whew! I better refill the coffee before I try to    read the post again! Now where did I put those spare brain    cells?....          ______________________________________________Doug    Barnardsoon-to-be beginning constructionOrigami Steel Swain 40 Aft    Cabin         -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> T & D Cain      [mailto:thcain@...]<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:03      PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> RE:      [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer     Depends on the definition and the realisation in      hardware.     Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or      function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous      from input to output in a way which involves a metallic      connection.     In      other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any      frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero,      then you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally      with that proposition).     Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same      argument as one uses resistance.     Pure galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic      double wound transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux      linking the primary and secondary.     At      mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is      proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is      heavy.     At      current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient      and very light (mass).     One      needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator,      and the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or      what the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the      ship side of the device.     There are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most      fundamental is the double wound or conventional transformer which has no      active electronics and no moving parts.     Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of      the ballast.     Terry            -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Doug Barnard        [mailto:dbarnard@...]<b>Sent:</b> Friday, 3 May 2002        10:27<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>        [origamiboats] Isolation TransformerI've heard        that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvaniccorrosion        at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What'sthe        opinion of the        list?______________________________________________Doug        Barnardsoon-to-be beginning constructionOrigami Steel Swain 40 Aft        CabinTo Post a message, send it to:          origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:        origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of        Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.        To Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service. To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
830|830|2002-05-06 21:12:34|Alex & Kim Christie|New photos of Swain 36|          I've just posted a handful of exterior and interior  photos of a nice pair of boats I saw on my trip down island, at the Maritime  Society docks in Ladysmithin. They are in the photo section under "Two 36 ft  Swains".  I have a few more to put in that album yet (like the other boat,  for instance!) from the same trip, so keep your eyes peeled.   Fellow group member Markus, who came all the way  from the States to see these boats, met up with me for this trip, and we had an  interesting time crawling around and looking at 3 bare hull 36 footers side by  side in Yellow Point (south of Nanaimo), as well as chatting with Evan, who  welded these (and many others) hulls together.   The finished boats in Ladysmith were a treat to  see, with everything done pretty much according to the instructions in Brent's  book as far as basic structure goes, but lots of interesting customizations as  well.  I like how these boats reflect their owners tastes and needs with  simple changes.  Check out the interior shots.  All done by the owners  themselves, right down to the upholstery (exterior canvas work as well).  I  think the only thing not made by the owners themselves on this boat were the  engine (Isuzu), the ceramic bowl on the head (Jabsco), the hot water heater  (Bosch), and propane stove.   Cheers,   Alex |
831|831|2002-05-07 12:59:33|Doug Barnard|Compasses|In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats:  http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130  Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass more in line? Any compass recommendations?  Thanks!  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin|
832|831|2002-05-07 14:05:50|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Compasses|The steel boat compass is an interesting find, Doug.  I am guessing that those spheres on either side of the compass work on the compass by "over-influencing" the needle beyond the influence of the steel boat. In other words, disturb the magnetic field with a known quantity before the boat's disturbance can get to the compass, and you can get some semblance of control over the beast.  Can anyone else illuminate further on this?  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Compasses   > In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130 > > Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass > more in line? Any compass recommendations? > > Thanks! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
833|833|2002-05-07 14:11:48|edward_stoneuk|Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Hi folks,  Do you have any recommendations for an economic and reliable way of  sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft in a Swain 36.  Regards,  Ted Stone|
834|831|2002-05-07 14:58:44|Stephen Wandling|Re: Compasses|  Alex, You're right in that the 'balls' on either side are moved in or out to provide the least magnetic deviation as possible.  This adjustment is done by 'swinging' the boat through a 360 degree rotation, while staying over a fixed geographical point on the bottom.  There is a bit of an art to this.  Usually, you can not eliminate all of the deviation and will then have a 'deviation card' that indicates the amount of deviation error at various points on the compass. Magnetic deviation is initially related to the steel boat's effect on the compass.  Unfortunately this is not a fixed condition and moving a tool box or depleting the canned goods during a voyage can affect the deviation and must be taken into consideration. I recently read about a compass that changed by 10 degrees when the engine was started due to the charging cable from the engine to the batteries running adjacent to the compass.  The magnetic field from this cable was the culprit. The compass on eBay is a classic old compass of the type that I recall the US Navy used on small boats that didn't have gyro compasses.  The one pictured is pretty big (about 20" wide) for a 30' boat.  If you search for "steel boat compass" on Google or where ever, you will se the more modern, scaled down versions now available. I have a wonderful old handbearing compass that I won't be able to use on my steel boat.  I've forgotten the name, but it looks a bit like a 3" spare tire.  You sight over the top of it and the bearing is 'projected' on the point you are taking a bearing on.  It also has a tritium light for night use.  I haven't yet seen anything in the way of a hand bearing compass for the steel boat.  I guess one option is as the Navy did back when I was in, which was to have a fixed sighting device that gave bearings relative to the boats heading.  We always used them with two people, the person doing the sighting calling "mark" when they were on target and the other noting the bearing at that moment. Stephen Alex & Kim Christie wrote:   The steel boat compass is an interesting find, Doug.  I am guessing that those spheres on either side of the compass work on the compass by "over-influencing" the needle beyond the influence of the steel boat. In other words, disturb the magnetic field with a known quantity before the boat's disturbance can get to the compass, and you can get some semblance of control over the beast.  Can anyone else illuminate further on this? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Barnard <dbarnard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 10:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Compasses   > In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130 > > Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass > more in line? Any compass recommendations? > > Thanks! > > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >    To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  |
835|833|2002-05-07 16:10:04|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|          Names like Lasdrop, Duramax, and PSS shaft seal come to  mind. Here's a  review   You might look for other  reviews at: http://www.proboat.com/ http://www.boatus.com/reviews/ <em>Stephen </em> <em><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></em>   -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk  [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...]<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:10  PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats]  Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft   Hi folks,Do you have any recommendations for an    economic and reliable way of sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft in    a Swain 36.Regards,Ted Stone  |
836|836|2002-05-07 16:20:35|Stephen Wandling|Taking bearings from a steel boat|Further to the thread about compasses for steel boats, here is an article on taking bearings from your boat: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/bearing.htm  I intend to use my GPS for headings (and intend to carry at least two of them), but I will have to have a backup that does not use electricity. This compass, below, apparently sells for US$155, compared to US$500+ for others and looks pretty serviceable.  I would like to consider mounting it inside the boat, visible through a Plexiglas panel at the back of the pilothouse.  Any comments on whether this will work, vis a vis compensating for deviation? http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/NexusSteelBoatCompass100NBC-S.htm  Stephen|
837|833|2002-05-07 17:04:00|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|              Here's the Powerboat Reports    review:   http://www.boatus.com/reviews/power/articles/4713-1.asp                    -----Original    Message-----<b>From:</b> Ditmore, Stephen    [mailto:sditmore@...]<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 4:05    PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> RE:    [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller    shaft   Names like Lasdrop, Duramax, and PSS shaft seal come to    mind.   Here's a    review       You might look for other    reviews at:   http://www.proboat.com/   http://www.boatus.com/reviews/   <em>Stephen </em>   <em><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4"></font></em>     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...]<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 07, 2002 2:10    PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft    Hi folks,Do you have any recommendations for an      economic and reliable way of sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft      in a Swain 36.Regards,Ted  Stone  |
838|838|2002-05-08 07:58:57|T & D Cain|Galvanic isolators -- a primer.|Most likely some members of the group have seen this one --- a useful primer on the subject. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/galvanic/  Terry|
839|833|2002-05-09 03:31:50|edward_stoneuk|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Thanks for the info Stephen.  Do you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less Packing?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
840|833|2002-05-09 08:48:49|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|              I'm afraid not, Ted.  Anyone    else?                -----Original    Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...]<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 09, 2002    3:32 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller    shaftThanks for the info Stephen.Do    you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less    Packing?Regards,Ted Stone  |
841|831|2002-05-10 13:51:29|Alan Smith|Re: Compasses|I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses from Richie. They are self-contained and easy to swing. All you do is press a button on the front panel then do a 720 degree turn and you're done. If you add some equipment to your boat just do it again.  There is no worry if your electrical system dies. They draw very little current; just milliamps. I tested the unit with a variable power supply down to about 5 volts and it still worked. That means even if your ship's battery is so dead it won't run your reading light, it will still have enough voltage and current capacity to operate the compass.  They are relatively expensive but have you priced those metal boat compasses with the external compensation balls? They are not cheap either.  Another advantage of flux gate compasses is that they are not affected by magnetic dip. This is the error that results when using a compass in different latitudes than the one it is balanced for. The lines of flux of Earth's magnetic field go from being parallel to the surface, at the magnetic equator, to being vertical at the magnetic poles. The compass card will tend to tilt to make itself parallel to the lines of flux. For this reason compasses have small weights on the card to keep it level on all headings. As you probable know, the magnetic poles are not lined up with the geographic poles so some cruising areas may give your compass trouble. It depends on what zone it is balanced for.   Al   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th! http://shopping.yahoo.com|
842|833|2002-05-10 15:31:09|weekender24|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Second hand information only, but National Fisherman ran an article  on moldable packing a while back.  At the time I noted that it was  being used on some push boats running the ICW and remember that it  worked much better than expected, really sealing well even on a  damaged shaft.  Dave  --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Thanks for the info Stephen. >  > Do you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less Packing? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
843|831|2002-05-10 21:31:50|Doug Barnard|Re: Compasses|> -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Smith [mailto:sv_simplicity@...]  > I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses > from Richie.   I looked on the Ritchie website, but couldn't find a fluxgate compass. Sure that's the manufacturer?  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin|
844|831|2002-05-11 22:09:43|weekender24|Re: Compasses|Try using Google and search under 'fluxgate compasses'.  Then search  within results for 'Ritchie".  I found quite a few entries.  Dave   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: >  >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alan Smith [mailto:sv_simplicity@y...] >  > > I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses > > from Richie. >  > I looked on the Ritchie website, but couldn't find a fluxgate  compass. Sure > that's the manufacturer? >  > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin |
845|833|2002-05-12 16:30:28|edward_stoneuk|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Thanks Dave,  Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the Moldable  Drip-Free packing?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
846|846|2002-05-13 10:39:56|Stephen Wandling|No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass|Attachments :I guess this is why we can't find anything on fluxgate compasses on the Ritchie site.  -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Fluxgate Compass Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:49:49 -0700 From: "Steve Sprole" <Steve.Sprole@ritchienavigation.com> Reply-To: <Steve.Sprole@ritchienavigation.com> To: "'Stephen Wandling'" <stephenw@telus.net>  Hello,  Ritchie did manufacture electronic compasses until this year.  We still support the units in the field but no longer manufacture them.    Sincerely,  Steve Sprole V.P., Marketing  RITCHIE NAVIGATION 243 Oak Street, Pembroke, MA 02359  USA 781-826-5131 (voice)   781-826-7336 (fax) Website:http://www.ritchienavigation.com/  -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Wandling [mailto:stephenw@telus.net] Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:31 PM To: sales@ritchienavigation.com Subject: Fluxgate Compass  Does or did Ritchie sell a fluxgate compass?  There has been mention of one on a steel boat discussion group, but I can't seem to find any listing for such a compass on your site.  Thanks,  Stephen Wandling|
847|846|2002-05-13 12:51:51|Alan Smith|Re: No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass|That's too bad. I wonder why they stopped making them. They are great units. I guess I'll hang onto mine.  Anyway there are other companies that make fluxgate compasses. Most have a separate sensor and display unit. The sensor is mounted remotely at some "magnetically stable" part of the boat and the display can be put where it best suits the helmsman. Usually they allow for more than one display so you could have one down in the cabin too.  Al   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience http://launch.yahoo.com|
848|848|2002-05-13 17:48:07|richytill|Enjoyment|My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another  chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated.  Came back to  the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor  mounts.  By mid afternoon we had welded several sequences, or heat  cycles on the spacers for the drive plate housing that will link the  engine to the transmission and become a motor mount.  By evening the  housing was complete.  Cost:  $9.43 in nuts and bolts; salvaged metal  (free); left over plate from the keel and a few welding rods with a  liberal dash of patience.  Result: robust, inexpensive solution--not  a "cheap" fix.  With a pair of dividers, a few wood wedges and a  hammer, centre punch, old angle grinder, cutting torch, drill and a  few files we had linked a VW Rabbit diesel motor to a Borg Warner  Velvet Drive.  A left over 32 tooth spline Volvo marine drive plate  we were given free had spawned the idea.  Now the idea has has  assumed a life and a function. We filed off the corners and wire  brushed the product just before sundown.  Tried the fit one more time- -plate slides onto dowels like it lives there.  Big smiles.  For 2  tired guys : a day of enjoyment and learning.  Building a metal boat  can be rewarding and fun.  rt|
849|848|2002-05-13 17:58:27|Stephen Wandling|Re: Enjoyment|  Rich, thanks for the most "On Topic" posting I have seen in ages! Stephen richytill wrote:   My son and I arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. . . . . .  |
850|848|2002-05-13 21:03:50|Doug Barnard|Re: Enjoyment|> From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@...]   > My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another > chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated.  Came back to > the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor > mounts.   Great post! So where are you dumpster diving? You don't have to reveal your exact source, just the type of place to go looking!  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin|
851|848|2002-05-14 16:12:41|richytill|Re: Enjoyment|In general, look for large industries or projects that can't afford  to pay people to sort out left over materials.  A shut down at a pulp  mill or refinery is a good clue.  Gravel pits,  major manufacturing,  re-tooling at a sawmill can result in large sectiions being turfed  out.  I look for new materials that are cut-offs.  People will help  sometimes if they know it's for a boat--set stuff aside for you.   Because it is metal, it is "good as new" in most cases; often it is  new and very high quality.  There seems to be consensus that using  stainless for various fittings and trim can help to make a better  metal boat.  It is ecologically more effecient to salvage and reuse  than to melt down or buy new.  Some people will recognise the value  of this and donate their surplus.  Some won't.  We just look for what  works.  rt   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: >  > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] >  >  > > My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another > > chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated.  Came  back to > > the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for  motor > > mounts. >  > Great post! So where are you dumpster diving? You don't have to  reveal your > exact source, just the type of place to go looking! >  > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin |
852|833|2002-05-14 19:56:15|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it didn't  work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those dripless  glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no luck at  all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy gear  gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you find  the problem.   Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing box ,  or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw the  end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of  grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and their  hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless  1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a  convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in whenever  you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard  engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too hot.                                       Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Thanks Dave, >  > Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the   Moldable   > Drip-Free packing? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
853|833|2002-05-16 18:45:49|edward_stoneuk|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Thanks Brent, What is your preferred stern gland set up?  Custom made or off the  shelf?  Solid mounted or on a hose connected to the stern tube? Flax  packing or a teflon mix?  Regards,  Ted Stone   -- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote:  > Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it didn't  > work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those   dripless   > glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no luck   at   > all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy   gear   > gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you   find   > the problem. >   Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing   box ,   > or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw   the   > end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of  > grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and   their   > hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless  > 1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a  > convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in   whenever   > you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard  > engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too hot. >                                       Brent Swain >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  > wrote: > > Thanks Dave, > >  > > Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the  > Moldable  > > Drip-Free packing? > >  > > Regards, > >  > > Ted Stone |
854|854|2002-05-16 22:19:13|alex_christie|new photos added|Group,  New photos have been added to the photo album, "Two 36 footers",  showing interior and exterior shots of two boats I saw on my trip to  Ladysmith with group member Markus.  Alex|
855|833|2002-05-17 14:35:40|brentswain38|Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft|Bronze stuffing boxes are cheap in second hand stores ,and work well.  You couldn't justify a custom or new one. The ones which are mounted  on a hose are the best. They are a lot more forgiving when it comes  to alignment. Solid mounted ones could cause metal fatigue on the  shaft if the alignment were less than perfect or if rubber mounts  were used.          Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Thanks Brent, > What is your preferred stern gland set up?  Custom made or off the  > shelf?  Solid mounted or on a hose connected to the stern tube?   Flax   > packing or a teflon mix? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone >  >  > -- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > > Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it   didn't   > > work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those  > dripless  > > glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no   luck   > at  > > all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy  > gear  > > gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you  > find  > > the problem. > >   Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing  > box ,  > > or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw  > the  > > end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of  > > grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and  > their  > > hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless  > > 1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a  > > convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in  > whenever  > > you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard  > > engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too   hot.  > >                                       Brent Swain > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  > > wrote: > > > Thanks Dave, > > >  > > > Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the  > > Moldable  > > > Drip-Free packing? > > >  > > > Regards, > > >  > > > Ted Stone |
856|819|2002-05-18 17:19:31|brentswain38|Re: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW!|Several friends have used underwater exhaust.A 10 guage hull with flat  surfaces drummed a lot . A 36 footer with a 3/16th hull and 3  cylindre engine had no problem as the exhaust went out through a  slighly curved and well re-inforced part of the hull. I tried it with  a single cylindre diesel and the drumming was uncacceptable.Extending  the exhaust several inches beyond the hull helped a bit but not  enough.   I now run a dry exhaust out the transom and use a couple of elbows  to take it below the waterline where a rubber flap acts as a check  valve . It has a 1/4 inch hole in the upper elbow for a siphon break.  It has worked well for many years.I threw away the muffler and it  didn't make any significant difference to the sound level. Diesel  engineers have told me that you can go down 3 feet before back  pressure becomes a problem, altho going 6 inches below the surface  effectivly kills any  sound you would otherwise hear.         Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Doug Barnard" <dbarnard@v...> wrote: > There's been a discussion going on over on the Trawler World List  about the > exhaust for the diesel exiting mid-hull, underwater. I was wondering  if it > might be incorporated into an Origami hull design. I think that a  steel pipe > or enclosure would be substituted for the fiberglass pipe mentioned.  Oh, and > no "walk-through"! >  > I'd be worried about back pressure when the boat is stopped; the > potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe effect. An Italian manufacturer overcame  this by > installing additional ports out the side at water level. Reports are  also > that there are fuel savings when motoring, as the exhaust bubbles  reduce the > friction. The big advantage is a quieter motor with no muffler, and  less > fume/soot concentration. >  > I'll order the magazine mentioned on Monday, and give a look at the  system. >  > Here's the original post (used with permission): >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Arild Jensen > > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:38 AM > > To: trawler-world-list@s... > > Subject: TWL: Underwater exhaust for noise supression > > > > > > > > I can't recall now if it was this list or the live aboard list > > that had a thread > > going about underwater exhaust. However, today I saw an 86 footer > > which has the > > main exhaust in the bottom of the engine room right next to the  engine. > > > > According to the builder this was a design evolved by their naval > > architect some > > years ago and which they have used on all their boats since then. > > The exhaust > > consist of a 12 inch diameter fibreglass tube glassed right into > > the bottom just > > like you do with a bow thruster tunnel. except this tube is aimed > > downwards not > > out the side. And no it doesn't have a seacock. The tube is > > carried up to a point > > above the waterline. > > > > The Vee cylinder configuration  engines have a "y" shaped  stainless steel > > exhaust manifold with flexible bellows style connectors that > > leads into the > > turbo chargers with additional stainless steel tubing leading to > > the point of the > > water injection point, which in turn connects to the  fibreglass  tube. > > The cooling water injection is a 4 inch fibreglass pipe situated > > above the > > waterline near the top of the galss tube. The exhaust line rises > > in an arch to the > > deckhead before curving downward. The arch provides a walk through   for > > access to the outboard sides of the engines. > > > > Careful shaping of the outer edge at the bottom ensures clean > > water flow and > > they have even measured a negative pressure at speed. this would > > indicate the > > flow of water past the  mouth of the exhaust creates a suction > > to assist in > > scavenging the exhaust gasses when the engines are developing full  power. > > Apparently all the major engine builders have checked this > > configuration and find > > no problems with  it in terms of  back pressure. I recall someone > > saying this was > > a major objection to such an arrangement. > > > > Apart from the noise suppressions, this design is good for  mid-ship engine > > location since it eliminates the long exhaust tube run aft to the > > transom so > > common in traditional designs. Frees up a lot of space which is > > now usable for > > other things.  It also makes for a clean,  noise and fume free > > swim platform. > > With the engine mass centered midships you can also have finer > > stern lines > > since you do not need as much buoyancy right at the stern. > > To see an example of this design look at the Feb 2002 issue of  Show boats > > which featured a vessel ccalled "Watermark". This is a sistership > > to the one I was > > looking at.  Just some food for thought. > > > > regards > > Arild >  > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 Aft Cabin |
857|857|2002-05-24 02:02:16|kayaker_john|much to say, some late|As someone who is very interested in origami steel boats, having  bought boat plans, presently scrounging and accumulating materials,  buying more tools, learning from other owners, and learning basic  welding, it is very enjoyable to partake of the information flow on  this site.  Thank you to all contributors; however, some of you are  so knowledgeable in a variety of areas that it is a bit intimidating  to a "jack of all trades, and master of none" type of guy like  myself! Carol and I even enjoy the personal information that is  shared, like "We are begining construction on our Brent Swain 40  footer!"  Good stuff this!  I've been wanting to post some "thank  you's" for a couple of months, but do not want to make one long post  (sorry Alex). Instead, I would like to make a few more smaller posts.    John Holdal|
858|858|2002-05-24 02:17:04|kayaker_john|Thank  you ----present owners on Vancouver Island|About two months ago, Carol and I made a trip to Van. Is. We saw  Brent Swain designed boats, mostly just the outsides, in Ladysmith,  Nanaimo and area, Comox, and Courtenay.  The owners that we did see  were all very pleasant and helpfull ----- Thank you so much for your  time and help.  For all of the boat owners who heard from their dock  neighbours that some people were looking at their boats  --- and  taking lots of pictures  ---- thank you for adding to our enjoyment,  and forgive our little liberty of taking all those pictures.    ((A  matter of respect -----please don't climb aboard a boat unless one's  invited  ---- even though you may be visiting "by invitation"  elsewhere on the dock.))            John Holdal|
859|859|2002-05-24 02:33:42|kayaker_john|congratulations to Daryl & Marlene (not finished yet!)|((Their boat has been launched, it runs under power, but the  interior and rigging is not finished))     Congratulations on the launching of your boat!......yes Daryl, you  did say "It's not finished." but most people would be elated to be at  that stage.    Again, "Congratulations", and it was enjoyable to see  it "in the water", after having seen it on land.    Again, thank you for your hospitality when Carol and I visited two  months ago.  The fact that you've sailed these waters, as well as  sailing to Fiji, then chose this type of boat to build ---- it is  very reassuring to novices such as Caro and I.      Thank you.      John Holdal   ((Daryl was doing some welding on the very first Swain boat built  by Evan Schaler!  Once refurbished, the present owner plans to sail  to Hawaii.))|
860|860|2002-05-24 02:51:10|kayaker_john|congratulations Winston & Carol - - - -and thank you|After 30 years of sailing, a circumnavigation of the world, a trip  through the Northwest passage (in book: Arctic Odyssey by Glen  Sherman) and having owned eight boats (or is it nine now?), maybe the  launch of a new boat isn't quite the event of years past ----but,   CONGRATULATIONS ON THE LAUNCHING OF THE "DOVE IV". Carol And I had  the good fortune to see it again (and take more picture!) of it tied  to the dock.  It is beatiful!  I can imagine it will be quite a  sight, sailing with all sails out.    I was pleased to learn that the boat Carol and I have chosen would  be the same basic boat, other than your modifications to the pilot  house and standing rigging.  Your statement that it was a good hull,  and your choice of it, settled alot of questions in our mind.  Also,  your help on your daughter's steel boat confirmed it -----Yes, Carol  and I were on the right track.    Thanks Winston.     John Holdal|
861|861|2002-05-24 03:04:43|kayaker_john|late, but thank you Brent|On our prior trip (two months ago) to Vancouver Island, Carol and  I met you to pick up some plans for your 36 foot boat design.  Thank  you for your patience in answering all of our questions, as well as  showing us a few boats ---finished and unfinished.  It was a  delight!  That trip was beyond our expectations. Thanks Brent.    Other owners of boats built to your designs have been immensely  helpful.  We'll be proud to have a "Swain boat".  The simplicity of  some things you designed is specially confidence building.  "Simple"  does not break down, or cause problems, as much ---relative  to "complicated".        John Holdal|
862|862|2002-05-24 03:12:19|kayaker_john|Thank you,   Jean & Mark|On both of our trips to the island, you have been very gracious,  patient, helpful, and instructive.  Your boat is a delight to look  at; so much so that Carol believes that you have equity value in  those good looks ----and could sell it for absolute top dollar.  You  should be very proud of your boat and your efforts.    May you have years of excellent sailing.    Thank you for sharing with us.          John Holdal|
863|863|2002-05-24 03:44:06|kayaker_john|Thank you - - - Denise & Mike Loucks|Thank you for inviting us into your home to "talk boats".  As the  owners of a 36 foot boat (of which we would like to build a sister  ship), your comments and suggestions were much appreciated.  I have  my heart set on a twin keel, so I was pleasantly surprised when you  supported me on this, specially since the "Shinola" has a fin keel.   You mentioned that the "Shinola" (Swain 36 footer) was fast and  responsive, making it impossible for your friends in their _______u   to catch up, on a Mexican trip.  As well, with this rudder it allowed  for very sharp turning when needed in harbours.  Your confidence in  this boat, generally, was very good to hear.    Thanks for letting Jesse show us your boat.         Carol & John Holdal   ((The Loucks are owners of the "Shinola", which is one of the boats  pictured on the back page of Brent Swain's book. ---2 pictures in  center of page.  Long time water people, they went on a three year  cruise with one of their stops being New Zealand ----having to return  to Canada so their son Jesse could attend high school(now grown and  welding boats!)  After a few years back on land they still miss the  sea. We ran out of time, so have no idea "if" or "when" they may go  again ----their hearts are yearning!))|
864|864|2002-05-24 04:56:02|kayaker_john|welding and welders|Thank you Steve, Gary, and others for your earlier discussions  about welding. It was very informative. ((Now I know ---also corect))  Now that I'm into my introductory welding course at B.C. Institute of  Technology, all of those discussions, the course, discussions with  the instructors, and the talks with welders like Evan and Jessehave  helped clarify my needs and the solutions. My intention was to get  someone to weld my hull. I will be purchasing a "buzz box". (for arc  welding by stick)   Does it look like I have to talk to five or six  people before doing anything new????  Maybe!!!! (Yes Brent, you were  also correct in your book!)   At the beginning, my biggest objective was to understand more about  welding to allow better communication with anyone welding on my  boat."I want to know what a good weld looks like." was my statement  often.  Now I understand that a good looking weld does not ensure  proper metal fusion.  There may be no depth to the weld.  Weld  testing techniques have shown me that "looks can be deceiving". ( My  understanding is that MIG welders can help a poorer welder make  better looking welds.  ----stated earlier, in diferent words, by  group members.)  YOU JUST HAVE TO GET A GOOD WELDER!  Simple?   Luckily, we have very good, experienced welders available. Evan  Schaler is well known for having built these boats for years. (see  photos  in "files" and his email address can be obtained from the  member list --- evanmoonjunk, etc.) As a member of this group, he is  easily reached.   New to alot of us, Jesse Loucks, who sailed with  his parents to New Zealand, for a three year cruise,  on their 36  foot, Swain, fin keel boat. (Denise & Mike Loucks own the "Shinola".   Gee, Jesse --you were "forced" to sail to New Zealand --some people  are so "deprived"!)  Jesse, now 22, has his "B and C level welding  tickets", and is now working on his "A level welding ticket".  He has  assisted Brent Swain and welded on his own, so now has a few welded  boats under his belt.  Jesse is thinking of joining our group in the  near future, but for now may be contacted at: P.O. Box 1780,  Ladysmith, B.C., V9G 1B3  ----Canada, of course.  My understanding is  that both Evan and Jesse will weld your boat on site -----which for  me would be the Fraser Valley.    Thanks fellows!!    Oh yes, contact  them directly if you have any questions for either of them.    Should you wish an Okanagan builder, or want to transport a hull,  Confidence Custom Boat will weld the hull in Kelowna.( This company  was discussed in earlier posts by other members.)    Oh!!! Jesse....is he a "sailing welder" or a "welding sailor"?  My  kids don't think my humour is getting better either!!!    Anyone else?  There are other very knowledgeable people in our  group.  Do you build for others?|
865|865|2002-05-24 04:57:49|kayaker_john|different prices for metals!|Gary,     You asked for the price of lead earlier, and I gave you new ingot  price of $0.63 per pound after taxes, and about 50 -55 cents for  scrap lead. Those were Vancouver prices.     On this last trip to Vancouver Island, I found that everyone  there was buying scrap stainless steel and scrap aluminum at about  50% of Vancouver prices!  OUCH!!!   Maybe someone from Vancouver  Island (Gary's boat is being built there) can get you the Island  price of lead.      John Holdal|
866|866|2002-05-24 05:09:09|kayaker_john|sad story --- 52 foot steel Robertson sail boat|Some coworkers of mine, husband and wife, decided to do some  renovations to their 52 foot steel Robertson sailboat that they  bought about 12 years ago (not new).   Once they started ripping the  inside out they discovered that there was nothing between the  insulation and the steel hull.  Condensation resulted, along with  rust.   Now their "renovation" is down to bare hull ---so they are  doing the painting that should have been done when it was built.    Somebody's short cut cost them.         John Holdal|
867|867|2002-05-24 06:53:56|kayaker_john|are there any other launches?--we love to hear about  successes|Does anyone else know of recent steel origami boat launches?  Do  more than me like to hear such things?    It's good for the soul. .....  Really!!!!!      repetitive --John Holdal             (ok- I'll shut up for awhile......BYE))))))))|
868|857|2002-05-24 12:22:17|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: much to say, some late|Thanks John, for your many thanks.  I have met many of the same Swain hull owners while visiting their boats and have always been treated just as nicely.  Seems to be a hallmark of the owners of these boats.  I've developed a saying which I think typifies the process of building these boats and underlies their philosophy: "Every good Swain boat starts with a good scrounge!"  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: kayaker_john <jcholdal@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] much to say, some late   >    As someone who is very interested in origami steel boats, having > bought boat plans, presently scrounging and accumulating materials, > buying more tools, learning from other owners, and learning basic > welding, it is very enjoyable to partake of the information flow on > this site.  Thank you to all contributors; however, some of you are > so knowledgeable in a variety of areas that it is a bit intimidating > to a "jack of all trades, and master of none" type of guy like > myself! Carol and I even enjoy the personal information that is > shared, like "We are begining construction on our Brent Swain 40 > footer!"  Good stuff this!  I've been wanting to post some "thank > you's" for a couple of months, but do not want to make one long post > (sorry Alex). Instead, I would like to make a few more smaller posts. >    John Holdal > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
869|869|2002-05-25 14:36:28|edward_stoneuk|welding|Brent,  Are the longitudinals stitch welded?  If so, what spacing do you  recommend?  Is the stem bar welded in after the two hull halves are welded  together, which must be a fairly tricky job, or is it sandwiched  between the two semi hulls?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
870|869|2002-05-25 19:08:25|brentswain38|Re: welding|Ted    The longitudinals are stitch welded with a two inch weld every 6  inches on alternating sides of the stringer.Where the ends of the  bottom stringer meet the transverse bottom seam it's best to weld  them on the inside of the angle only so the short piece you weld in  to join the two stringer ends together don't hang up on the welds.  The stem bar is welded in after the two halves are welded together,  all inside welding of the stem has been done and after the bottom of  the anchorwell is in.         Brent Swain  --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Brent, >  > Are the longitudinals stitch welded?  If so, what spacing do you  > recommend? >  > Is the stem bar welded in after the two hull halves are welded  > together, which must be a fairly tricky job, or is it sandwiched  > between the two semi hulls? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
871|871|2002-05-25 22:33:00|T & D Cain|Engine noise and treatments: Doug Barnard's address.|1. For those looking for information on the sources and controls and/or fixes for noise/vibration, the English monthly --- Practical Boat Owner --- issues Feb. Mar. and April 2002 have a useful series by James Grazebrook ( Halyard Marine --- yes, they sell relevant products ). No real conflict of interest by the way, the articles have a reasonably sound (no pun intended) basis and feature competitive products without bias.  2. Doug Barnard, I have had an e-mail returned from a direct item to your mailbox. I shall try again today and perhaps with indulgence from the group moderator, if direct doesn't work some photos of our Adams40 could be posted here.  As indicated in the item for Doug., many of the stainless fittings for this boat have been TIG or MIG or stick welded by myself and some may be of interest to other steel boat constructors.  Terry|
872|872|2002-05-27 10:27:27|kwing175|Swain Dinghy Questions |First let me say that Brent's book has really tweak my interest in the  Origami boat building approach.  Not only from the lay out point of view  but, also from the "do it yourself" approach.  Thanks to all that make this group so interesting.  I have been playing around with the dinghy drawing that Brent provides in  his book.   I scaled up the plans to make a model out of poster board using  hot melt glue as my "welding" process.  The approach works pretty well.  To quell my curiosity my intent is to build a dinghy starting with a ten  foot aluminum panel.  I have a welder friend that will do the cutting and  welding so that is not an issue for me.  But, he is not a boat builder so I  better know and understand the process before we get started.  The book does not contain much text about actually constructing the dinghy.   I have come across a few questions in my modeling efforts.  I am hoping  that the group can educate me.  Questions:  1.  My efforts yield a hull shape the has an unusually steep sheer and  excessive rocker.   Is this because I am using poster board or am I missing  something in technique?  To obtain the sheer/rocker that appears reasonable  I would have to insert quite a large wedge shape into the vertical "weld"  on the sides.  What am I missing?  2.  Amidship the drawing has an athwartship dashed line. The line is  labeled seam.  Does this imply that the dinghy should be constructed in two  pieces?  First weld the origami seams and then connect the fore and aft  portions of the hull.  3.  Does the order in which the panels are "welded" make a difference in  how the vessel takes it shape?  Centerline "welds", bow and stern first?  Then weld the chines. Lastly the bring the vertical side "welds" together.   Maybe vice versa?  4.  Scaling up the drawing in the book results in the forward chine "tab"  narrower than the after chine "tab" (maybe vice versa).  Is this a design  function?  My guess it results from printing and scaling up from such a    small drawing.   Should the tabs have the same width along the vertical  "weld"?  5.  The text does not address the transom shape or transom angle.   I used  a semi-circle with a circumference equal to the width of the plate ends.  I  glued it in vertically.   Am I on the right path?   Is there a better  approach?   On another topic:  Are there any Origami and/or twin keel boats being built  in the Houston, TX area?  Or in the Gulf Coast area?  Regards, Keith Wingate Maritime Resource Services  P: 281-554-5549 M: 713-202-8674 kwing175@...|
873|872|2002-05-27 15:15:09|brentswain38|Re: Swain Dinghy Questions|The amount of rocker you have with any origami boat is directly  relative to the amount of flare in the topsides . Pull the topsides  together and reduce their flare and the rocker and sheer will flatten.   The reason for the midships seam is that aluminium isn't available  in the widths it would take to get adequate beam in a dinghy. I used a  5 by 8 foot sheet for mine and had to weld pieces on to get the width.  This involved a lot more seam that would have been the case if I had  just welded two 4 foot wide sheets together accross the bottom, altho  it took less material.   I'd weld the complete flat dinghy plate together before trying to  pull it into a dinghy.Welding the sides together before pulling the  bow and stern together would be easier.The transom can be made more or  less whatever shape you want , given approximatly the right width and  depth.Shallower sides would make it easier to pull together, but  slightly less stable.I'd probably go for a wider transom to improve  stability if I were building mine again.   I'm not sure what you mean by "Tabs". The shape is quite forgiving .  Whatever shape you come up with for your cardboard model is what  you'll get in aluminium.   I sold a set of plans to a guy in Dallas several years ago. I don't  remember his name . One of my 36 footers was trucked to Texas several  years ago. It belonged to Jim Perkins, a ham operator who deals in ham  radios, etc. Perhaps the other Texas hams will know where to find him.  If you find him tell him to send me an e-mail.   Those are the only boats of my design I know of in the Texas area.  One of my 36 footers was pulled together in Chauvin Loisianna several  years ago.           Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., kwing175 <kwing175@e...> wrote: > First let me say that Brent's book has really tweak my interest in  the  > Origami boat building approach.  Not only from the lay out point of  view  > but, also from the "do it yourself" approach. >  > Thanks to all that make this group so interesting. >  > I have been playing around with the dinghy drawing that Brent  provides in  > his book.   I scaled up the plans to make a model out of poster  board using  > hot melt glue as my "welding" process.  The approach works pretty  well. >  > To quell my curiosity my intent is to build a dinghy starting with a  ten  > foot aluminum panel.  I have a welder friend that will do the  cutting and  > welding so that is not an issue for me.  But, he is not a boat  builder so I  > better know and understand the process before we get started. >  > The book does not contain much text about actually constructing the  dinghy.  >  I have come across a few questions in my modeling efforts.  I am  hoping  > that the group can educate me. >  > Questions: >  > 1.  My efforts yield a hull shape the has an unusually steep sheer  and  > excessive rocker.   Is this because I am using poster board or am I  missing  > something in technique?  To obtain the sheer/rocker that appears  reasonable  > I would have to insert quite a large wedge shape into the vertical  "weld"  > on the sides.  What am I missing? >  > 2.  Amidship the drawing has an athwartship dashed line. The line is  > labeled seam.  Does this imply that the dinghy should be constructed  in two  > pieces?  First weld the origami seams and then connect the fore and  aft  > portions of the hull. >  > 3.  Does the order in which the panels are "welded" make a  difference in  > how the vessel takes it shape?  Centerline "welds", bow and stern  first?  > Then weld the chines. Lastly the bring the vertical side "welds"  together.  >  Maybe vice versa? >  > 4.  Scaling up the drawing in the book results in the forward chine  "tab"  > narrower than the after chine "tab" (maybe vice versa).  Is this a  design  > function?  My guess it results from printing and scaling up from  such a    > small drawing.   Should the tabs have the same width along the  vertical  > "weld"? >  > 5.  The text does not address the transom shape or transom angle.    I used  > a semi-circle with a circumference equal to the width of the plate  ends.  I  > glued it in vertically.   Am I on the right path?   Is there a  better  > approach? >  >  > On another topic:  Are there any Origami and/or twin keel boats  being built  > in the Houston, TX area?  Or in the Gulf Coast area? >  > Regards, > Keith Wingate > Maritime Resource Services >  > P: 281-554-5549 > M: 713-202-8674 > kwing175@e... |
874|874|2002-05-27 16:30:09|greenguy2ca|Registration|Just phoned the feds about registering 36' pilot house being built.   I got voice mail requesting my name and phone so they could send me  a "compliance plate" application, "capacity plate application"  and "proof of competency".  The last one made me chuckle coming from  a civil servant.  I have not heard of these applications before  except the "boating test".  If anyone has experience with this,  please reply.    Regards.... Gary|
875|875|2002-05-28 09:15:53|Newbarndesign|Origami Motor Sailer|I am wondering about using the origami design to build a  Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have found  a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I am  looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins and  two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like that  with this type of hull?  Great site, love the idea.|
876|874|2002-05-28 14:47:21|brentswain38|Re: Registration|The capacity plate is for little outboard fizzboats , saying how many  people it can hold. You can see them on the inside of the transom of  fizzies.The "Proof of Competency is for children. Us old farts  apparently don't need it until the year 2009. The law just says you  must have proof of competency. One could argue that for a court to  state that someone who has sat down in a classroom and answered a few  questions on a test without ever having set foot on a boat has more  proof of competency than someone who has crossed oceans , would  threaten to bring the administration of justice into serious disrepute  .I'm not sure they even define proof of competency.         Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > Just phoned the feds about registering 36' pilot house being built.    > I got voice mail requesting my name and phone so they could send me  > a "compliance plate" application, "capacity plate application"  > and "proof of competency".  The last one made me chuckle coming from  > a civil servant.  I have not heard of these applications before  > except the "boating test".  If anyone has experience with this,  > please reply.  >   > Regards.... Gary |
877|875|2002-05-28 14:52:52|brentswain38|Re: Origami Motor Sailer|Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved surfaces  are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little fore  and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice . Determine the  plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out . Whatever  you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat.          Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" <newbarndesign@y...> wrote: > I am wondering about using the origami design to build a  > Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have found  > a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I am  > looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins and  > two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like that  > with this type of hull? >  > Great site, love the idea. |
878|878|2002-05-28 15:17:51|islands502000|Steel cutting|Frist I wish to thank all of the members of this group, and  especialy the founder, I am new, and located this site yesterday.    My question is thus, does anyone know a place that I can have  steel cut I am looking for a plasma, or water jet service in So.  Calif. also can anyone recomend a site that I can have my plans done  to give me a CNC cutting file or disk???     Thank you all     John|
879|879|2002-05-29 16:55:05|edward_stoneuk|Anchor winch|Brent,  With regard to the anchor winch in your book:  Is there a brake on it  to control paying out and to stop the drum over running when the  anchor is being lowered?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
880|879|2002-05-30 16:00:28|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch|Ted   I've never felt the need for a brake on the anchorwinch. Just put  your foot against the side of the drum to stop it from overriding.  When you want to stop the boat, drop the handle pawl.It's a good idea  to weld on a bit of stainless plate to stop the pawl and handle  from  chipping the deck paint to bare steel, or put some kind of stops on  the winch frame .       Brent Swain           --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Brent, >  > With regard to the anchor winch in your book:  Is there a brake on   it   > to control paying out and to stop the drum over running when the  > anchor is being lowered? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
881|881|2002-05-30 18:38:45|edward_stoneuk|longitudinals|Brent,  Thanks for the winch info.  Another question:  The bill of materials calls for 10 angles for the hull longitudinals. How are they laid out?  I can see 4 a side in the drawings and  photos.  I assume they are positioned with their midpoint  perpendicular to the hull midpoint.  There seem to be two angles left  over.  Regards,  Ted Stone|
882|882|2002-05-31 15:16:45|edward_stoneuk|Steel Cutting|John,  I don't know Southern California so I would try a directory such as  yellow pages.  They are on the web.  Then once you have a few names  phone and enquire. If they cannot help you, perhaps because their  equipment is too small for the plate size you want, ask them if they  know of any body who can.  Invariably they will try to be helpful,  you may be a future customer.  If you try this a few times and get  pointed to the same place you will then know that the companies they  recommend are well thought of in the business.  I often do this when  I don't know of any suppliers.  If possible I go for three prices as  they can vary enormously.  Some of the companies may have CAD draftsfolk who can take your paper  plans and put them on a disk for use by the cutting machine.  If not  ask if they know of someone who can.  Hope this is of some help.  Regards,  Ted Stone|
883|883|2002-06-02 20:41:08|greenguy2ca|Messages|Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages  in a book format ... example pdf format.   Gary|
884|881|2002-06-04 22:00:52|brentswain38|Re: longitudinals|Ted   I used to put in three longitudinals on each side bottom plate and  two on each side topside plate,roughly  equally spaced. Since I  started going for integral tanks on the centreline, I've been cutting  the bottom longitudinal in half and putting each half in front of and  behind the tank ends, as well as using some of it for other uses such  as stffning the sides of the wheelhouse below the windows .They are  more or less equally spaced, dividing the distance from the chine to  the centreline and chine to deck  equally. Their exact spacing isn't  critical as all they do is increrase the overall stiffness of the  plate.                         Brent Swain       --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Brent, >  > Thanks for the winch info. >  > Another question: >  > The bill of materials calls for 10 angles for the hull   longitudinals.  > How are they laid out?  I can see 4 a side in the drawings and  > photos.  I assume they are positioned with their midpoint  > perpendicular to the hull midpoint.  There seem to be two angles   left   > over. >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
885|848|2002-06-05 09:46:42|T & D Cain|Re: Enjoyment|Attachments :        RT, The  Rabbit got my attention. The  attached photos show a neat raw water pump arrangement and the ass end has an  aquadrive CV insert to fit in the space. The  shaft is offset to port of the centreline and those who might like to guess at  why are welcome to reply -- think about the fabrication issues and about "P  effect" for an inclined prop in a horizontal stream for a right-hand rotation  prop. If you  want more info drop me a mail. Terry         -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> richytill    [mailto:tillrc@hotmail.com]<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 14 May 2002    7:18<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] EnjoymentMy son and i arose Sunday    morning to bright sunshine, and another chance to raid the dumpsters    before the dew evaporated.  Came back to the boat with some stainless    and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor mounts.  By mid afternoon we    had welded several sequences, or heat cycles on the spacers for the drive    plate housing that will link the engine to the transmission and become a    motor mount.  By evening the housing was complete.  Cost:     $9.43 in nuts and bolts; salvaged metal (free); left over plate from the    keel and a few welding rods with a liberal dash of patience.  Result:    robust, inexpensive solution--not a "cheap" fix.  With a pair of    dividers, a few wood wedges and a hammer, centre punch, old angle grinder,    cutting torch, drill and a few files we had linked a VW Rabbit diesel    motor to a Borg Warner Velvet Drive.  A left over 32 tooth spline    Volvo marine drive plate we were given free had spawned the idea.     Now the idea has has assumed a life and a function. We filed off the    corners and wire brushed the product just before sundown.  Tried the    fit one more time--plate slides onto dowels like it lives there.  Big    smiles.  For 2 tired guys : a day of enjoyment and learning.     Building a metal boat can be rewarding and fun.  rtTo    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
886|875|2002-06-05 12:44:12|Newbarndesign|Re: Origami Motor Sailer|I will give it a shot, what is the largest hull that would be possible  with this design. I was hoping to get around 38' to 44', based on  interior layouts of similar designs. Thanks Phil --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  wrote:  > Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved   surfaces   > are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little   fore   > and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice .   Determine the   > plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out .   Whatever   > you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat. >          Brent Swain >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" <  newbarndesign@y...> wrote:  > > I am wondering about using the origami design to build a  > > Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have   found   > > a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I   am   > > looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins   and   > > two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like   that   > > with this type of hull? > >  > > Great site, love the idea. |
887|887|2002-06-05 16:40:00|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Indexing of Messages|> Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages > in a book format ... example pdf format. > > > Gary   So far there is no function which could do this short of taking every message and cutting and pasting into one document.  The only thing possible on Yahoo is to search the archived messages from the group's home page, and this does work after a fashion (except no browse function).  I am, however, working on setting up a real website independent of this one (it will likely be called origamiboats.com), and the message archiving system would be much more user-friendly, out of the control of Yahoo and into my hands.  There is definitely lots of useful information buried in the old messages, and certainly worth putting into some kind of indexed format.  Thanks for the idea --- I'll see what I can do.  Alex|
888|887|2002-06-05 22:09:29|Richard Routh|Re: Indexing of Messages| Hello, Depending upon the method of message storing and the format/syntax of those stored messages I think there is a way using cURL. cURL picks up text from web pages and the resulting output could be stored in a Comma Separated Variable  (CSV) file. These CSV files could then be assembled upon threads into a spreadsheet , table or database.  It is no trivial task.   It is possible I could volunteer some time if I had help with this.  If three or more would volunteer with me it would be a bit easier.   Regards, Richard   >From: "Alex & Kim Christie"  >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >To:  >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Indexing of Messages  >Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:46:13 -0700  >  > > Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages  > > in a book format ... example pdf format.  > >  > >  > > Gary  >  >So far there is no function which could do this short of taking every  >message and cutting and pasting into one document. The only thing possible  >on Yahoo is to search the archived messages from the group's home page, and  >this does work after a fashion (except no browse function). I am, however,  >working  >on setting up a real website independent of this one (it will likely be  >called origamiboats.com), and the message archiving system would be much  >more user-friendly, out of the control of Yahoo and into my hands. There is  >definitely lots of useful information  >buried in the old messages, and certainly worth putting into some kind of  >indexed format. Thanks for the idea --- I'll see what I can do.  >  >Alex  >  >   Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com.|
889|887|2002-06-06 11:52:15|maxxard|Re: Indexing of Messages|Folks,  You might like to look at a website I threw together from your group  by pointing your browser to:  http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/index.htm  Its 282 Kb for those with low bandwidth. Its a threaded index of  everything up to message 887, without adverts. The links to the  messages work, but as I am not Yahoo, the links to authors don't, and  links inside the messages may or may not work.   Also, and probably more usefully for your purposes, I have put up a  page with all the messages in it. It is over 3Mb, so I don't suggest  dialup users open it, unless they really want to wait a while for it  to download. Its at:  http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/origamiboats.htm  I can't leave it there forever, so if someone can let me know when  they have got themselves a copy, I will take it down.  Hope this helps.   Jim Price (bored benevolent webhacker looking for work with a friend who reads  your group)|
890|887|2002-06-06 13:47:05|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Indexing of Messages|Thanks Jim, I think that fulfills our wishlist for a printable version of the messages!  Now, is it possible to zip that file of messages up into a small package and put it in our "files" section?  I am not sure how to compress it.  Alex    ----- Original Message ----- From: maxxard <maxxard@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Indexing of Messages   > Folks, > > You might like to look at a website I threw together from your group > by pointing your browser to: > > http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/index.htm > > Its 282 Kb for those with low bandwidth. Its a threaded index of > everything up to message 887, without adverts. The links to the > messages work, but as I am not Yahoo, the links to authors don't, and > links inside the messages may or may not work. > > Also, and probably more usefully for your purposes, I have put up a > page with all the messages in it. It is over 3Mb, so I don't suggest > dialup users open it, unless they really want to wait a while for it > to download. > Its at: > > http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/origamiboats.htm > > I can't leave it there forever, so if someone can let me know when > they have got themselves a copy, I will take it down. > > Hope this helps. > > Jim Price > (bored benevolent webhacker looking for work with a friend who reads > your group) > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
891|22|2002-06-06 13:56:54|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello,  This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats  group.    File        : /origamiboats.zip    Uploaded by : maxxard <maxxard@...>    Description : Zip file containing web page of the history of the groups messages.   You can access this file at the URL  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/origamiboats.zip   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit  http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files  Regards,  maxxard <maxxard@...>|
892|887|2002-06-06 14:00:30|maxxard|Re: Indexing of Messages|Alex,  It zips down to 521 Kb - its in your file area, as you may already  have noticed.  Jim   > Now, is it possible to zip that file of messages up into a small   package and  > put it in our "files" section?  I am not sure how to compress it. |
893|893|2002-06-09 03:34:44|cain1937au|Apologies to all.|My initial attempts to upload some steel boat detail photos were  thwarted by my Zone Alarm Pro firewall, resulting in an unexpected  and unheralded lockup on two occasions.  Whilst investigating this behaviour, I decided to attach some files  to a group e-mail and this was a mistake for which I apologise ---  especially to those on slow modem connections.  The photos now uploaded are not of a boat built using the group's  preferred method, however, we share many elements of steel boat  construction techniques. My boat is fabricated using cold stretch- rolled plate sections with much welding.  Had I been starting construction these days, the origami concepts  would have been in the shortlist of options.  I follow the group's progress with interest.  Terry Cain|
894|894|2002-06-11 08:01:28|edward_stoneuk|Half angle of entrance|Brent  My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.  Are there any  figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it another way  does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the top?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
895|895|2002-06-11 21:57:59|greenguy2ca|Following Sea|Brent:  Along the lines of the previous email about performance, have  you ever needed a sea anchor or does the twin keel perform well  enough in those conditions.  How about the fin keel same question?  thanks Gary|
896|896|2002-06-12 02:50:44|Alex & Kim Christie|website with 39 footer|Tony Bigras of Nanaimo has put up some photos of the Ian Leckie hull in Alberta, a 39 footer which I have photographed before, at this website: http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/ian.htm  Alex|
897|897|2002-06-13 18:20:45|sollitc|Sail Track|Does anyone have names and telephone numbers of US suppliers of  aluminum sailtrack?  Chuck Sollitt|
898|898|2002-06-17 12:15:59|kupris1948|bottom paint for steel with cte base|Boat builder magazine, author Dudley Dix, Mar/apr 1990, says most  bottom paints use cuperous oxide for the toxin. Searching  "origamiboats" archives yields slim pickins. What are sailors using  in this politically correct  age? When I was young and poorer I would  make my bottom paint out of enamel and ground up Copper Sulfate  crystals. I'd probably go to jail now for that.|
899|894|2002-06-17 15:43:28|brentswain38|Re: Half angle of entrance|The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount of buoyancy  above the waterline. With a good outside curve in the stem, the  topsides above the waterline are curved well out and give a lot of  reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat topsides and  little reserve buoyancy above the waterline and a clipper bow would  mean even less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward. This is  why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat tends to plunge to  the deck line, then stop dead in it's tracks . There is no such  problem with the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head sea  effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats which had  fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the bow.                                           Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Brent >  > My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.  Are there any  > figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it another way  > does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the top? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
900|875|2002-06-17 15:49:59|brentswain38|Re: Origami Motor Sailer|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" <newbarndesign@y...> wrote:  > I will give it a shot, what is the largest hull that would be   possible   > with this design. I was hoping to get around 38' to 44', based on  > interior layouts of similar designs. > Thanks > Phil > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  > wrote: > > Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved  > surfaces  > > are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little  > fore  > > and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice .  > Determine the  > > plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out .  > Whatever  > > you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat. > >          Brent Swain > >  > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" < > newbarndesign@y...> wrote: > > > I am wondering about using the origami design to build a  > > > Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have  > found  > > > a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I  > am  > > > looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins  > and  > > > two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like  > that  > > > with this type of hull? > > >  > > > Great site, love the idea. |
901|895|2002-06-17 15:57:21|brentswain38|Re: Following Sea|Gary    I've only had to use a drogue once , coming home from Mexico , to  avoid losing my westing in  a westerly gale at 35 degrees north. I  hung a tire off the stern as with a drogue off the stern a boat lies  dead stern to the wind and doesn't yaw about like it does when moored  from the bow. This greatly reduces the load on the drogue and it's  line, and makes it far more effective . There is plenty of reserve  buoyancy in both ends of the 36, far more than in many boats.                                 Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "greenguy2ca" <GPREB@H...> wrote: > Brent:  Along the lines of the previous email about performance,  have  > you ever needed a sea anchor or does the twin keel perform well  > enough in those conditions.  How about the fin keel same question? >  > thanks Gary |
902|875|2002-06-17 16:04:09|brentswain38|Re: Origami Motor Sailer|Two 53 footers were recently built using origami boatbuilding methods,  but the biggest origami boat I've seen built was a 60 footer . No  problems.                                     Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...> wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" <newbarndesign@y...>  wrote: > > I will give it a shot, what is the largest hull that would be  > possible  > > with this design. I was hoping to get around 38' to 44', based on  > > interior layouts of similar designs. > > Thanks > > Phil > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" <brentswain38@h...>  > > wrote: > > > Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved  > > surfaces  > > > are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little  > > fore  > > > and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice .  > > Determine the  > > > plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out .  > > Whatever  > > > you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat. > > >          Brent Swain > > >  > > >  > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" < > > newbarndesign@y...> wrote: > > > > I am wondering about using the origami design to build a  > > > > Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have  > > found  > > > > a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I  > > am  > > > > looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral  fins  > > and  > > > > two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like  > > that  > > > > with this type of hull? > > > >  > > > > Great site, love the idea. |
903|894|2002-06-17 19:02:19|Brian Dixon|Re: Half angle of entrance|Brent,    Not having the benefit of a picture in front of me, I'm a bit  confused about your stem line description.  You say 'in profile', which  I take to be looking directly at the boat from port or starboard.  You  mention a difference between a straight stem (in profile) and one that  bellies out (has camber when viewed in profile), and reserve buoyancy.   The reserve buoyancy discussion makes perfect sense and is something  I've observed through real-life use of boats (not sailboats  though..sorry.)    What confuses me is the relationship between reserve buoyancy and the  stem line.  I think they are separate variables to a great extent.  For  example, if you look at the bows of some boats, you see in profile that  they are straight as an arrow.  If you look at a plan view with various  waterlines shown, e.g. starting at the DWL and working your way up  towards the sheer, some of these boats are designed with an ever- broadening curve (less fine) in the bow area...reserve buoyancy, but  with a stem line that is straight when viewed in profile.  Boats like  this will rise above 'big water' rather than tending to dive into it.    I can point to examples that are the other way too.  For example, a  nice pretty camber to the stem line when viewed in profile, and the  half angle stays equally fine right up to the sheer ... more like the  clipper you mention.  Boats like this clearly have less reserve  buoyancy and will tend to drive into 'big water' rather than rise above  it.    Did I misunderstand your explanation?  Brian   > <html><body> >  >  > <tt> > The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount of buoyancy   <BR>  > above the waterline. With a good outside curve in the stem, the <BR> > topsides above the waterline are curved well out and give a lot of   <BR>  > reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat topsides and   <BR>  > little reserve buoyancy above the waterline and a clipper bow would   <BR>  > mean even less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward. This is   <BR>  > why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat tends to plunge to   <BR>  > the deck line, then stop dead in it's tracks . There is no such <BR> > problem with the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head sea <BR> > effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats which had   <BR>  > fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the bow.<BR> >                                                Brent Swain<BR>  > <BR> > <BR> > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk"   <edward_stoneuk@y...> <BR>  > wrote:<BR> > > Brent<BR> > > <BR> > > My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.  Are   there any <BR>  > > figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it another   way <BR>  > > does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the top?  <BR>  > > <BR> > > Regards,<BR> > > <BR> > > Ted Stone<BR> > <BR> > </tt> >  >  > <br> > <tt> > To Post a message, send it to:     origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<BR>  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-  unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>  > <br> >  > <br> > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a   href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of  Service</a>.</tt>  > </br> >  > </body></html> >  >  >    --|
904|904|2002-06-17 20:25:35|sunyataspirit|metal boat society|I would like to suggest to all group members that a visit tometalboatsociety.com will prove both enjoyable and enlightening.There is a vast array of most useful information in the forum sectionthat applies to any metal boat building effort. The site ties in verynicely with the origami group as most enthusiasts are home builders.Brent Swain also offers further sterling advice.  Should an official origami website be set up, the style and ease ofuse of theformat used by the aforementioned site would be one to emulate.  (As an aside, Alex, any info on Gene Wunderlin and his hull?)Cheers, Richard|
905|904|2002-06-17 20:25:45|sunyataspirit|metal boat society|I would like to suggest to all group members that a visit tometalboatsociety.com will prove both enjoyable and enlightening.There is a vast array of most useful information in the forum sectionthat applies to any metal boat building effort. The site ties in verynicely with the origami group as most enthusiasts are home builders.Brent Swain also offers further sterling advice.  Should an official origami website be set up, the style and ease ofuse of theformat used by the aforementioned site would be one to emulate.  (As an aside, Alex, any info on Gene Wunderlin and his hull?)Cheers, Richard|
906|894|2002-06-17 23:32:13|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Half angle of entrance|Attachments :Regarding stem profiles:  Here are some photos of the bow profile in question which show the relationship between the curve of the stem and the fullness of the bow.  The bow-on shot definitely shows nice full forward sections, as described by Brent.  Standing by these boats on land, I always marvel at how much curve (and fair at that) there is to the bow shape, almost like a submarine (the twin bilge fins jutting out of the underbody at 90 degree angles to the plate seem to add to this impression).  The other outstanding impression one gets from looking at these hulls is the almost complete absence of "angularity" and flat planar surfaces normally associated with steel boats. Looking at any of the Swain hulls it is easy to see that their shape suggest that as the bow immerses, it should pick up bouyancy very quickly.  I am running more on theory here, gleaned from documenting a lot of these boats, but it looks like the curve and the fullness are inter-related in this scenario --- this could be a function of the origami system of pulling the hull half-shells together starting at the bow and tab-welding your way aft along the centreline.  Perhaps Brent can illuminate this point;  does the contraction of the plate material along the centreline (due to cooling after welding) influence this full or convex shape?  It would be interesting to know, as it certainly looks like it.  All I know for certain is that this is an entirely different building process than the traditional method of hanging a plate on a pre-existing framework, and it yields very different results.  I've examined the bow sections of some traditionally built steel boat hulls (eg Roberts) with straight stem profiles and hard chines that run right to the bow, or very nearly so (to a piece of pipe taper-cut with the narrow part at the bottom of the stem) .  While this yielded a somewhat racy "modern" look, plus the knife-like immersed forefoot of racing boats, I don't think the results of such a form in actual use would have been very pleasing in function in other than optimal sea-states (ie, no big waves, no swell), at least not for a steel boat.  How often do we have wind but no waves or swell?  The foward sections would not be as full as they should be (just a straight angle up the sides to the deck, as opposed to the curved shape of the Swain bow).   It seems to me that a "racing" type bow-stem belongs on a lighter composite hull, where the weight up forward is less (race boats don't even store anything up there but a few sailbags), and the purpose is speed more than anything.  With any steel hull that attempts to copy modern racing boats out of other materials, I am imagining the sorry result to be a lot of bow-plowing and wild action on the helm in a bad sea.  But since I haven't tried such a boat I cannot say for sure, so I won't delve further into conjecture lest I overstep the bounds of my knowledge (if I haven't done so already).  Enuff of my theories, just look at the photos and tell us what you think, people, we're all ears!  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Dixon <briand@dixonmarine.com> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Half angle of entrance   > > Brent, > >   Not having the benefit of a picture in front of me, I'm a bit > confused about your stem line description.  You say 'in profile', which > I take to be looking directly at the boat from port or starboard.  You > mention a difference between a straight stem (in profile) and one that > bellies out (has camber when viewed in profile), and reserve buoyancy. > The reserve buoyancy discussion makes perfect sense and is something > I've observed through real-life use of boats (not sailboats > though..sorry.) > >   What confuses me is the relationship between reserve buoyancy and the > stem line.  I think they are separate variables to a great extent.  For > example, if you look at the bows of some boats, you see in profile that > they are straight as an arrow.  If you look at a plan view with various > waterlines shown, e.g. starting at the DWL and working your way up > towards the sheer, some of these boats are designed with an ever- > broadening curve (less fine) in the bow area...reserve buoyancy, but > with a stem line that is straight when viewed in profile.  Boats like > this will rise above 'big water' rather than tending to dive into it. > >   I can point to examples that are the other way too.  For example, a > nice pretty camber to the stem line when viewed in profile, and the > half angle stays equally fine right up to the sheer ... more like the > clipper you mention.  Boats like this clearly have less reserve > buoyancy and will tend to drive into 'big water' rather than rise above > it. > >   Did I misunderstand your explanation? > > Brian > > > <html><body> > > > > > > <tt> > > The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount of buoyancy > <BR> > > above the waterline. With a good outside curve in the stem, the <BR> > > topsides above the waterline are curved well out and give a lot of > <BR> > > reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat topsides and > <BR> > > little reserve buoyancy above the waterline and a clipper bow would > <BR> > > mean even less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward. This is > <BR> > > why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat tends to plunge to > <BR> > > the deck line, then stop dead in it's tracks . There is no such <BR> > > problem with the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head sea <BR> > > effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats which had > <BR> > > fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the bow.<BR> > > >              >              >              >       Brent Swain<BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > <edward_stoneuk@y...> <BR> > > wrote:<BR> > > > Brent<BR> > > > <BR> > > > My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.  Are > there any <BR> > > > figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it another > way <BR> > > > does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the top? > <BR> > > > <BR> > > > Regards,<BR> > > > <BR> > > > Ted Stone<BR> > > <BR> > > </tt> > > > > > > <br> > > <tt> > > To Post a message, send it to:   > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<BR> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt> > > <br> > > > > <br> > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a > href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of > Service</a>.</tt> > > </br> > > > > </body></html> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
907|894|2002-06-18 09:21:58|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Half angle of entrance|          I have a question about all this for Brent.  I  bought a copy of his plans for the 31' boat to learn more about the Origami  process.  At the moment I have no intention of actually building a boat,  but I am willing to pay for my education.  I thought I understood how the  metal bends, in conical sections.  I took his hull lines for the 31' boat  and scanned them and brought them into Rhino 3D.  I have been trying to  apply surfaces to the curves to better understand the shape.  I was also  hoping that this would provide me with a 3D hull model that could be used to  accurately develop the interior design of a boat.   The problem is that the bow and stern of the boat,  according to the lines drawing are not in conical in shape.  They appear to  be real compound curves in 3 dimensions.  If the shape was all cylindrical  and conical sections it would be very easy to model a hull and then unroll it to  produce a pattern.  This doesn't appear to be the case.  It appears to  me that the bow and stern acquire a compound curve during the process of pulling  in the edges of the sheets and forcing them to also follow the deck  edges.  I can create a surface that agrees with Brent's hull lines but it  will no longer be a developable surface that unrolls.   I had hoped that Brent's construction method was purely  mathematical in nature and that one could develop other hull shapes using this  technique in a 3D program.  It looks though that Brent's method is mostly  the result of empirical experimentation over successive models until he arrived  at the desired shape.  I was also wondering how Brent drew his hull  lines.  Were the lines taken off of an existing boat?   My attempts at creating a boat hull using fully  developable surfaces always seems to run into the same problem.  At both  the bow and stern a 'crease' is required in the conical surface for it to  follow both the deck surface and the seam at the center line of the hull.   The hull will plate up easily, it just won't look very fair.  I have been  too busy lately to look for ways to solve this problem.   Gary H. Lucas         ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Alex    & Kim Christie    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 17, 2002 11:37  PM   <b>Subject:</b> Re: [origamiboats] Re: Half    angle of entrance   Regarding stem profiles:Here are some photos of the bow    profile in question which show therelationship between the curve of the    stem and the fullness of the bow.  Thebow-on shot definitely shows    nice full forward sections, as described byBrent.  Standing by these    boats on land, I always marvel at how much curve(and fair at that) there    is to the bow shape, almost like a submarine (thetwin bilge fins jutting    out of the underbody at 90 degree angles to theplate seem to add to this    impression).  The other outstanding impression onegets from looking    at these hulls is the almost complete absence of"angularity" and flat    planar surfaces normally associated with steel boats.Looking at any of the    Swain hulls it is easy to see that their shape suggestthat as the bow    immerses, it should pick up bouyancy very quickly.I am running more on    theory here, gleaned from documenting a lot of theseboats, but it looks    like the curve and the fullness are inter-related inthis scenario --- this    could be a function of the origami system of pullingthe hull half-shells    together starting at the bow and tab-welding your wayaft along the    centreline.  Perhaps Brent can illuminate this point;  doesthe    contraction of the plate material along the centreline (due to    coolingafter welding) influence this full or convex shape?  It would    be interestingto know, as it certainly looks like it.  All I know for    certain is that thisis an entirely different building process than the    traditional method ofhanging a plate on a pre-existing framework, and it    yields very differentresults.I've examined the bow sections of    some traditionally built steel boat hulls(eg Roberts) with straight stem    profiles and hard chines that run right tothe bow, or very nearly so (to a    piece of pipe taper-cut with the narrowpart at the bottom of the stem)    .  While this yielded a somewhat racy"modern" look, plus the    knife-like immersed forefoot of racing boats, Idon't think the results of    such a form in actual use would have been verypleasing in function in    other than optimal sea-states (ie, no big waves, noswell), at least not    for a steel boat.  How often do we have wind but nowaves or    swell?  The foward sections would not be as full as they should    be(just a straight angle up the sides to the deck, as opposed to the    curvedshape of the Swain bow).   It seems to me that a "racing"    type bow-stembelongs on a lighter composite hull, where the weight up    forward is less(race boats don't even store anything up there but a few    sailbags), and thepurpose is speed more than anything.With any    steel hull that attempts to copy modern racing boats out of    othermaterials, I am imagining the sorry result to be a lot of bow-plowing    andwild action on the helm in a bad sea.  But since I haven't tried    such a boatI cannot say for sure, so I won't delve further into conjecture    lest Ioverstep the bounds of my knowledge (if I haven't done so    already).Enuff of my theories, just look at the photos and tell us    what you think,people, we're all ears!Alex----- Original    Message -----From: Brian Dixon <briand@...>To:    <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>Sent:    Monday, June 17, 2002 4:01 PMSubject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Half angle of    entrance>> Brent,>>   Not having    the benefit of a picture in front of me, I'm a bit> confused about your    stem line description.  You say 'in profile', which> I take to be    looking directly at the boat from port or starboard.  You> mention    a difference between a straight stem (in profile) and one that> bellies    out (has camber when viewed in profile), and reserve buoyancy.> The    reserve buoyancy discussion makes perfect sense and is something> I've    observed through real-life use of boats (not sailboats>    though..sorry.)>>   What confuses me is the    relationship between reserve buoyancy and the> stem line.  I think    they are separate variables to a great extent.  For> example, if    you look at the bows of some boats, you see in profile that> they are    straight as an arrow.  If you look at a plan view with various>    waterlines shown, e.g. starting at the DWL and working your way up>    towards the sheer, some of these boats are designed with an ever->    broadening curve (less fine) in the bow area...reserve buoyancy, but>    with a stem line that is straight when viewed in profile.  Boats    like> this will rise above 'big water' rather than tending to dive into    it.>>   I can point to examples that are the other way    too.  For example, a> nice pretty camber to the stem line when    viewed in profile, and the> half angle stays equally fine right up to    the sheer ... more like the> clipper you mention.  Boats like this    clearly have less reserve> buoyancy and will tend to drive into 'big    water' rather than rise above> it.>>   Did I    misunderstand your explanation?>> Brian>> >    <html><body>> >> >> >    <tt>> > The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount    of buoyancy> <BR>> > above the waterline. With a good    outside curve in the stem, the <BR>> > topsides above the    waterline are curved well out and give a lot of> <BR>>    > reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat topsides    and> <BR>> > little reserve buoyancy above the    waterline and a clipper bow would> <BR>> > mean even    less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward. This is>    <BR>> > why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat    tends to plunge to> <BR>> > the deck line, then stop    dead in it's tracks . There is no such <BR>> > problem with    the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head sea <BR>> >    effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats which had>    <BR>> > fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the    bow.<BR>> >>    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;>    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;>    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;>    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Brent    Swain<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >    --- In origamiboats@y...,    &quot;edward_stoneuk&quot;> &lt;edward_stoneuk@y...&gt;    <BR>> > wrote:<BR>> > &gt;    Brent<BR>> > &gt; <BR>> > &gt; My    cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.&nbsp; Are> there    any <BR>> > &gt; figures for the half angle of entrancce,    or to put it another> way <BR>> > &gt; does the    boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the top?>    <BR>> > &gt; <BR>> > &gt;    Regards,<BR>> > &gt; <BR>> > &gt; Ted    Stone<BR>> > <BR>> > </tt>>    >> >> > <br>> > <tt>> >    To Post a message, send it to:&nbsp;&nbsp;> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<BR>>    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-> unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>>    > <br>> >> > <br>> >    <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a> href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo!    Terms of> Service</a>.</tt>> >    </br>> >> > </body></html>>    >> >> >>>    -->>>> To Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@yahoogroups.com>    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>>    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>>>------------------------    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->Free $5 Love    ReadingRisk Free!http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
908|908|2002-06-18 09:46:04|Ditmore, Stephen|conic developability|            I, too, will be interested in Brent's response to Gary.  I don't  want to preempt that, but I've posted speculation as to how one might develop  the origami shape conically in the form of two 2D images downloadable  from http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=b9af476a5e4673f5a048389c2634edf8&threadid=248   Gary, you might also want to check out the software  at http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html   <i><font face="Monotype Corsiva" color="#000080" size="4">Stephen  Ditmore</font></i> New York|
909|909|2002-06-18 14:35:21|edward_stoneuk|Bow Profile Photos|Alex & Kim,  Judging from the "barcoding" along the side of the hull in the bow  profile photos the longitudinals are continued almost to the stem.   Was this the case and is it strictly necessary?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
910|910|2002-06-18 15:18:24|edward_stoneuk|Re Half angle and compound curves|Gary and Stephen,  When steel plate is cut with a gas axe or welded the heat will cause  some deformation.  I have just welded on the longitudinals and  gunwhale pipe and cut out the shape of a half hull.  The heat  involved has already curved the plate mostly in the right places.  I  am a learner in this and some of the curves I would rather they were  not there.  Steel, especially heat affected steel is not inert as say  plywood is.  This would make the construction difficult or impossible  to model in most hull development programmes.   I used Brent's 36'  plans to draw it on AutoCAD then printed it off and made cardboard  model of it.  Regards,  Ted Stone|
911|894|2002-06-18 16:17:48|brentswain38|Re: Half angle of entrance|The more curve you put in the stem, the more curve you have in the  transverse sections.The waterlines remain straight as the bow  sections are portions of a cone with the apex of the cone being at  the  end of the chine.There is no curve along the cone, only accross  it.Check the fullness of the transverse sections at the bow when  there is a good  outside curve to the stem .    Alex ,  you are right on all points.                                         Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  > Regarding stem profiles: >  > Here are some photos of the bow profile in question which show the > relationship between the curve of the stem and the fullness of the   bow.  The  > bow-on shot definitely shows nice full forward sections, as   described by  > Brent.  Standing by these boats on land, I always marvel at how   much curve  > (and fair at that) there is to the bow shape, almost like a   submarine (the  > twin bilge fins jutting out of the underbody at 90 degree angles to   the  > plate seem to add to this impression).  The other outstanding   impression one  > gets from looking at these hulls is the almost complete absence of > "angularity" and flat planar surfaces normally associated with   steel boats.  > Looking at any of the Swain hulls it is easy to see that their   shape suggest  > that as the bow immerses, it should pick up bouyancy very quickly. >  > I am running more on theory here, gleaned from documenting a lot of   these  > boats, but it looks like the curve and the fullness are inter-  related in  > this scenario --- this could be a function of the origami system of   pulling  > the hull half-shells together starting at the bow and tab-welding   your way  > aft along the centreline.  Perhaps Brent can illuminate this   point;  does  > the contraction of the plate material along the centreline (due to   cooling  > after welding) influence this full or convex shape?  It would be   interesting  > to know, as it certainly looks like it.  All I know for certain is   that this  > is an entirely different building process than the traditional   method of  > hanging a plate on a pre-existing framework, and it yields very   different  > results. >  > I've examined the bow sections of some traditionally built steel   boat hulls  > (eg Roberts) with straight stem profiles and hard chines that run   right to  > the bow, or very nearly so (to a piece of pipe taper-cut with the   narrow  > part at the bottom of the stem) .  While this yielded a somewhat   racy  > "modern" look, plus the knife-like immersed forefoot of racing   boats, I  > don't think the results of such a form in actual use would have   been very  > pleasing in function in other than optimal sea-states (ie, no big   waves, no  > swell), at least not for a steel boat.  How often do we have wind   but no  > waves or swell?  The foward sections would not be as full as they   should be  > (just a straight angle up the sides to the deck, as opposed to the   curved  > shape of the Swain bow).   It seems to me that a "racing" type bow-  stem  > belongs on a lighter composite hull, where the weight up forward is   less  > (race boats don't even store anything up there but a few sailbags),   and the  > purpose is speed more than anything. >  > With any steel hull that attempts to copy modern racing boats out   of other  > materials, I am imagining the sorry result to be a lot of bow-  plowing and  > wild action on the helm in a bad sea.  But since I haven't tried   such a boat  > I cannot say for sure, so I won't delve further into conjecture   lest I  > overstep the bounds of my knowledge (if I haven't done so already). >  > Enuff of my theories, just look at the photos and tell us what you   think,  > people, we're all ears! >  > Alex >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian Dixon <briand@d...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:01 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Half angle of entrance >  >  > > > > Brent, > > > >   Not having the benefit of a picture in front of me, I'm a bit > > confused about your stem line description.  You say 'in profile',   which  > > I take to be looking directly at the boat from port or   starboard.  You  > > mention a difference between a straight stem (in profile) and one   that  > > bellies out (has camber when viewed in profile), and reserve   buoyancy.  > > The reserve buoyancy discussion makes perfect sense and is   something  > > I've observed through real-life use of boats (not sailboats > > though..sorry.) > > > >   What confuses me is the relationship between reserve buoyancy   and the  > > stem line.  I think they are separate variables to a great   extent.  For  > > example, if you look at the bows of some boats, you see in   profile that  > > they are straight as an arrow.  If you look at a plan view with   various  > > waterlines shown, e.g. starting at the DWL and working your way up > > towards the sheer, some of these boats are designed with an ever- > > broadening curve (less fine) in the bow area...reserve buoyancy,   but  > > with a stem line that is straight when viewed in profile.  Boats   like  > > this will rise above 'big water' rather than tending to dive into   it.  > > > >   I can point to examples that are the other way too.  For   example, a  > > nice pretty camber to the stem line when viewed in profile, and   the  > > half angle stays equally fine right up to the sheer ... more like   the  > > clipper you mention.  Boats like this clearly have less reserve > > buoyancy and will tend to drive into 'big water' rather than rise   above  > > it. > > > >   Did I misunderstand your explanation? > > > > Brian > > > > > <html><body> > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount of   buoyancy  > > <BR> > > > above the waterline. With a good outside curve in the stem, the   <BR>  > > > topsides above the waterline are curved well out and give a lot   of  > > <BR> > > > reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat   topsides and  > > <BR> > > > little reserve buoyancy above the waterline and a clipper bow   would  > > <BR> > > > mean even less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward.   This is  > > <BR> > > > why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat tends to   plunge to  > > <BR> > > > the deck line, then stop dead in it's tracks . There is no such   <BR>  > > > problem with the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head   sea <BR>  > > > effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats which   had  > > <BR> > > > fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the bow.<BR> > > > > >              &nbs p;  > >              &nbs p;  > >              &nbs p;  > >       Brent Swain<BR> > > > <BR> > > > <BR> > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > > edward_stoneuk@y... <BR> > > > wrote:<BR> > > > > Brent<BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.    Are  > > there any <BR> > > > > figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it   another  > > way <BR> > > > > does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the   top?  > > <BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > Regards,<BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > Ted Stone<BR> > > > <BR> > > > </tt> > > > > > > > > > <br> > > > <tt> > > > To Post a message, send it to:   > > origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > > > <br> > > > > > > <br> > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a > > href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of > > Service</a>.</tt> > > > </br> > > > > > > </body></html> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  > > > > > > |
912|894|2002-06-18 16:29:01|brentswain38|Re: Half angle of entrance|Gary    Make a model out of sheet material and it will explain it better  than any computer model. The hulls have all come out totally fair.   The way I got the shapes was as mentioned in my book. I drew the  lines, did all  the calculations on the lines drawings, then made a  model. I took the topside and bottom plate shapes off the model, cut  the bottom plate in half, and attached the bottom pieces to the bow  and stern where the chines would have been. This makes no real  difference to the underwater area of the sections there as any area  which disapears at the would be chine in the bow and stern is added  on either side of the ex-chine.   There is a certain amount of compound curve introduced by shrinkage  of the welds and cuts along the seams. This is minimal in the conic  ends, but amounts to about 1 1/4 inches of curve between the chine  and the sheer amidships, less if a plasma cutter is used.   Some people have designed successful origami boats using my methods  on the computer with no problems, so it can be done.                                          Brent Swain    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > I have a question about all this for Brent.  I bought a copy of his  plans for the 31' boat to learn more about the Origami process.  At  the moment I have no intention of actually building a boat, but I am  willing to pay for my education.  I thought I understood how the  metal bends, in conical sections.  I took his hull lines for the 31'  boat and scanned them and brought them into Rhino 3D.  I have been  trying to apply surfaces to the curves to better understand the  shape.  I was also hoping that this would provide me with a 3D hull  model that could be used to accurately develop the interior design of  a boat. >  > The problem is that the bow and stern of the boat, according to the  lines drawing are not in conical in shape.  They appear to be real  compound curves in 3 dimensions.  If the shape was all cylindrical  and conical sections it would be very easy to model a hull and then  unroll it to produce a pattern.  This doesn't appear to be the case.   It appears to me that the bow and stern acquire a compound curve  during the process of pulling in the edges of the sheets and forcing  them to also follow the deck edges.  I can create a surface that  agrees with Brent's hull lines but it will no longer be a developable  surface that unrolls. >  > I had hoped that Brent's construction method was purely  mathematical in nature and that one could develop other hull shapes  using this technique in a 3D program.  It looks though that Brent's  method is mostly the result of empirical experimentation over  successive models until he arrived at the desired shape.  I was also  wondering how Brent drew his hull lines.  Were the lines taken off of  an existing boat? >  > My attempts at creating a boat hull using fully developable  surfaces always seems to run into the same problem.  At both the bow  and stern a 'crease' is required in the conical surface for it to  follow both the deck surface and the seam at the center line of the  hull.  The hull will plate up easily, it just won't look very fair.   I have been too busy lately to look for ways to solve this problem. >  > Gary H. Lucas >  >  >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Alex & Kim Christie  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:37 PM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Half angle of entrance >  >  >   Regarding stem profiles: >  >   Here are some photos of the bow profile in question which show the >   relationship between the curve of the stem and the fullness of  the bow.  The >   bow-on shot definitely shows nice full forward sections, as  described by >   Brent.  Standing by these boats on land, I always marvel at how  much curve >   (and fair at that) there is to the bow shape, almost like a  submarine (the >   twin bilge fins jutting out of the underbody at 90 degree angles  to the >   plate seem to add to this impression).  The other outstanding  impression one >   gets from looking at these hulls is the almost complete absence of >   "angularity" and flat planar surfaces normally associated with  steel boats. >   Looking at any of the Swain hulls it is easy to see that their  shape suggest >   that as the bow immerses, it should pick up bouyancy very quickly. >  >   I am running more on theory here, gleaned from documenting a lot  of these >   boats, but it looks like the curve and the fullness are inter- related in >   this scenario --- this could be a function of the origami system  of pulling >   the hull half-shells together starting at the bow and tab-welding  your way >   aft along the centreline.  Perhaps Brent can illuminate this  point;  does >   the contraction of the plate material along the centreline (due  to cooling >   after welding) influence this full or convex shape?  It would be  interesting >   to know, as it certainly looks like it.  All I know for certain  is that this >   is an entirely different building process than the traditional  method of >   hanging a plate on a pre-existing framework, and it yields very  different >   results. >  >   I've examined the bow sections of some traditionally built steel  boat hulls >   (eg Roberts) with straight stem profiles and hard chines that run  right to >   the bow, or very nearly so (to a piece of pipe taper-cut with the  narrow >   part at the bottom of the stem) .  While this yielded a somewhat  racy >   "modern" look, plus the knife-like immersed forefoot of racing  boats, I >   don't think the results of such a form in actual use would have  been very >   pleasing in function in other than optimal sea-states (ie, no big  waves, no >   swell), at least not for a steel boat.  How often do we have wind  but no >   waves or swell?  The foward sections would not be as full as they  should be >   (just a straight angle up the sides to the deck, as opposed to  the curved >   shape of the Swain bow).   It seems to me that a "racing" type  bow-stem >   belongs on a lighter composite hull, where the weight up forward  is less >   (race boats don't even store anything up there but a few  sailbags), and the >   purpose is speed more than anything. >  >   With any steel hull that attempts to copy modern racing boats out  of other >   materials, I am imagining the sorry result to be a lot of bow- plowing and >   wild action on the helm in a bad sea.  But since I haven't tried  such a boat >   I cannot say for sure, so I won't delve further into conjecture  lest I >   overstep the bounds of my knowledge (if I haven't done so  already). >  >   Enuff of my theories, just look at the photos and tell us what  you think, >   people, we're all ears! >  >   Alex >  >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: Brian Dixon <briand@d...> >   To: <origamiboats@y...> >   Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:01 PM >   Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Half angle of entrance >  >  >   > >   > Brent, >   > >   >   Not having the benefit of a picture in front of me, I'm a bit >   > confused about your stem line description.  You say 'in  profile', which >   > I take to be looking directly at the boat from port or  starboard.  You >   > mention a difference between a straight stem (in profile) and  one that >   > bellies out (has camber when viewed in profile), and reserve  buoyancy. >   > The reserve buoyancy discussion makes perfect sense and is  something >   > I've observed through real-life use of boats (not sailboats >   > though..sorry.) >   > >   >   What confuses me is the relationship between reserve buoyancy  and the >   > stem line.  I think they are separate variables to a great  extent.  For >   > example, if you look at the bows of some boats, you see in  profile that >   > they are straight as an arrow.  If you look at a plan view with  various >   > waterlines shown, e.g. starting at the DWL and working your way  up >   > towards the sheer, some of these boats are designed with an  ever- >   > broadening curve (less fine) in the bow area...reserve  buoyancy, but >   > with a stem line that is straight when viewed in profile.   Boats like >   > this will rise above 'big water' rather than tending to dive  into it. >   > >   >   I can point to examples that are the other way too.  For  example, a >   > nice pretty camber to the stem line when viewed in profile, and  the >   > half angle stays equally fine right up to the sheer ... more  like the >   > clipper you mention.  Boats like this clearly have less reserve >   > buoyancy and will tend to drive into 'big water' rather than  rise above >   > it. >   > >   >   Did I misunderstand your explanation? >   > >   > Brian >   > >   > > <html><body> >   > > >   > > >   > > <tt> >   > > The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount of  buoyancy >   > <BR> >   > > above the waterline. With a good outside curve in the stem,  the <BR> >   > > topsides above the waterline are curved well out and give a  lot of >   > <BR> >   > > reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat  topsides and >   > <BR> >   > > little reserve buoyancy above the waterline and a clipper bow  would >   > <BR> >   > > mean even less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward.  This is >   > <BR> >   > > why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat tends to  plunge to >   > <BR> >   > > the deck line, then stop dead in it's tracks . There is no  such <BR> >   > > problem with the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head  sea <BR> >   > > effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats  which had >   > <BR> >   > > fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the bow.<BR> >   > > >   >             &nbs p; >   >             &nbs p; >   >             &nbs p; >   >       Brent Swain<BR> >   > > <BR> >   > > <BR> >   > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" >   > edward_stoneuk@y... <BR> >   > > wrote:<BR> >   > > > Brent<BR> >   > > > <BR> >   > > > My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows.   Are >   > there any <BR> >   > > > figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it  another >   > way <BR> >   > > > does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over  the top? >   > <BR> >   > > > <BR> >   > > > Regards,<BR> >   > > > <BR> >   > > > Ted Stone<BR> >   > > <BR> >   > > </tt> >   > > >   > > >   > > <br> >   > > <tt> >   > > To Post a message, send it to:   >   > origamiboats@y...<BR> >   > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >   > unsubscribe@y...</tt> >   > > <br> >   > > >   > > <br> >   > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a >   > href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of >   > Service</a>.</tt> >   > > </br> >   > > >   > > </body></html> >   > > >   > > >   > > >   > >   > -- >   > >   > >   > >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... >   > >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >   > >   > >   > >  >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
913|909|2002-06-18 16:36:56|brentswain38|Re: Bow Profile Photos|There is no need whatever to run the longitudinals all the way to the  stem. The conic curves make the hull phenominally strong there. They  may actually reduce the hull's resilience there. Evan shaler , who  has built many excellent hulls of my design always insists on running  the longitudinals all the way ,although he hasn't come up with a good  reason for doing so .   I've always only run the longitudinals ten feet either side of  amidships as have all experienced ocean cruisers building my designs,  and there has been no reason so far for doing otherwise.                               Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Alex & Kim, >  > Judging from the "barcoding" along the side of the hull in the bow  > profile photos the longitudinals are continued almost to the stem.   > Was this the case and is it strictly necessary? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
914|910|2002-06-18 16:42:31|brentswain38|Re: Re Half angle and compound curves|As long as you put the longitudinals on while the hull plate was  flat, there is no need to worry about shrinkage caused by welding the  bulwark pipe on.When you lift the ends of the plate and prop up the  sheer amidships to give a bit of angle to the chine, it will spring  into a beautiful , fair ,slightly compound curve.                                    Brent Swain     --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Gary and Stephen, >  > When steel plate is cut with a gas axe or welded the heat will   cause   > some deformation.  I have just welded on the longitudinals and  > gunwhale pipe and cut out the shape of a half hull.  The heat  > involved has already curved the plate mostly in the right places.    I   > am a learner in this and some of the curves I would rather they   were   > not there.  Steel, especially heat affected steel is not inert as   say   > plywood is.  This would make the construction difficult or   impossible   > to model in most hull development programmes.   I used Brent's 36'  > plans to draw it on AutoCAD then printed it off and made cardboard  > model of it. >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
915|915|2002-06-19 02:16:24|alex_christie|40 foot Swain - new images in photo section|Dear Group,  I've uploaded an album of some interesting 3-D renderings of the  Swain 40 created by 3-D artist Doug Barnard, a member of the  Origamiboats list who will be building one of these boats. He has  done an excellent job --- thanks Doug!  Alex|
916|915|2002-06-19 14:51:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: 40 foot Swain - new images in photo section|Attachments :          Alex, Drawings s01, s02, and s03 illustrate the problem I am  having.  It looks to me as if Doug lofted the surface over the lines of the  hull.  You can produce a very fair curved surface this way, but there is  absolutely no guarantee that you can unroll the surface into a flat  pattern.  You could of course piece the hull together from small compound  curved pieces.  These three images seem to show a soft rounded chine, not a  hard chine that Brent's boats have.  They also show considerable rounding  where the stern quarters meet the transom, again something you don't see on  Brent's boats.  I can't see how you would get from this model to an actual  boat without serious trial and error cutting and fitting.   I have attached two views of my crude model.  Note  the creases I got when I swept one end of a straight line along the rail edge  and the bottom seam of the hull, while the other end is held at the end of the  chine.  Very ugly, but this hull shape is a mathematically accurate  surface that unrolls to a flat sheet, without the need to force it into a  compound curve.  It also could be cut from steel and be formed into a hull  that would exactly match my model.  Interior components could be derived  from this hull surface and they would fit in the finished steel hull to a very  high level of precision.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    alex_christie    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:16    AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] 40 foot Swain -    new images in photo section   Dear Group,I've uploaded an album of some interesting    3-D renderings of the Swain 40 created by 3-D artist Doug Barnard, a    member of the Origamiboats list who will be building one of these boats.    He has done an excellent job --- thanks Doug!Alex    ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor    ---------------------~-->Free $5 Love ReadingRisk Free!http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/YmoolB/TM---------------------------------------------------------------------~->To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/      |
917|915|2002-06-19 15:59:32|Doug Barnard|Re: 40 foot Swain - new images in photo section|> From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@...]   <snip>   > It looks to me as if Doug lofted the surface over the lines of > the hull.  You can produce a very fair curved surface this way, > but there is absolutely no guarantee that you can unroll the > surface into a flat pattern.   You are correct, sir! I totally cheated on the hull, and just sort of slopped it in. One of the unique things about a Swain design is that they don't have a standard Table of Offsets, so I can't match up my model to them. After I draft in the cutting plan, I'll make a scale model and take some measurements from that. Sounds 'Stone Age', I know, but I can't figure out a better way to do it. At least I won't use cubits as my measurement!  The primary purpose of the model was to prove out the overall dimensions, and make sure that the boat could do what was demanded of it, interior-design-wise. My wife is a masseuse/acupuncturist, and needs to be able to have enough open floor space to be able to give treatments. We also wanted a spacious galley, and comfortable master stateroom. I also needed a 'workshop', the small area abaft the nav station. Those of you that have read the Pardeys should be able to relate. Having a double-bunk second stateroom makes for better charterablity, I think. The cockpit was to be sleepable, and a fairly generous size.  So after spending a bunch of time, and trying some fairly wacky arrangements, I basically went with Brent's original plan. The pilothouse was moved forward a bit, and made slightly longer.  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" near Ventura, CA http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream|
918|918|2002-06-22 23:26:34|robert44654|dingy|I built a 7 1/2 foot fiberglass dingy to brents plans in the book.   I put an electric motor on the back and let my 10 year old go  in  the marina- he had a blast!  The freeboard in the boat appears to be  low, although, my son who weighs 100# and a battery and electric  motor did not take on any water.  What would be the minimium size  you would recommend to carry 2 or 3 adults?   PS- the boat probablely weighs 50-60 #s.  It is built like a tank- I  mean I think I could drive it through the dock!  Maybe I over did  the amount of fiberglass.  Any thoughts?|
920|920|2002-06-24 15:27:36|rbyzitter2001|Hulls in the vancouver area.|Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any "work in progress  hulls" in the Vancouver area.  I would like to have a look at them to  help understand some of the finer details of this part of the  opperation. Cheers|
921|920|2002-06-24 15:50:56|Brian Dixon|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|No, but which Vancouver?  Canada or Washington or?   > <html><body> >  >  > <tt> > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any "work   in progress <BR>  > hulls" in the Vancouver area.  I would like to have a look   at them to <BR>  > help understand some of the finer details of this part of the <BR> > opperation.<BR> > Cheers<BR> > <BR> > </tt> >  >  > <br> > <tt> > To Post a message, send it to:     origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<BR>  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-  unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt>  > <br> >  > <br> > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a   href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of  Service</a>.</tt>  > </br> >  > </body></html> >  >  >    --|
922|920|2002-06-24 16:22:48|rbyzitter2001|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|Sorry, Vancouver BC, Canada.    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: >  > No, but which Vancouver?  Canada or Washington or? >  > > <html><body> > >  > >  > > <tt> > > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any  "work  > in progress <BR> > > hulls" in the Vancouver area.  I would like to have a  look  > at them to <BR> > > help understand some of the finer details of this part of the <BR> > > opperation.<BR> > > Cheers<BR> > > <BR> > > </tt> > >  > >  > > <br> > > <tt> > > To Post a message, send it to:    > origamiboats@y...<BR> > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > > <br> > >  > > <br> > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a  > href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of  > Service</a>.</tt> > > </br> > >  > > </body></html> > >  > >  > >  >  > -- |
923|920|2002-06-24 17:49:12|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. Gord   ----- Original Message ----- From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@...> Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:27 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Hulls in the vancouver area.  > <span><p><span><p> >  >  > <tt> > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any "work in  > progress  >  > hulls" in the Vancouver area.  I would like to have a look at  > them to  >  > help understand some of the finer details of this part of the  >  > opperation. >  > Cheers >  >  >  > </tt> >  >  >  >  > <tt> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt> >  >  >  >  > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.</tt></br> >  > </span></span> >  > |
924|920|2002-06-24 18:06:58|rbyzitter2001|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|Thank you for the reply.  Where is the hull currently and would you  be OK with someone (me) having a look around? origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote:  > I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. > Gord >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:27 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Hulls in the vancouver area. >  > > <span><p><span><p> > >  > >  > > <tt> > > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any "work in  > > progress  > >  > > hulls" in the Vancouver area.  I would like to have a look   at   > > them to  > >  > > help understand some of the finer details of this part of the  > >  > > opperation. > >  > > Cheers > >  > >  > >  > > </tt> > >  > >  > >  > >  > > <tt> > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > >  > >  > >  > >  > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > > Service.</tt></br> > >  > > </span></span> > >  > > |
925|925|2002-06-24 23:20:30|rbyzitter2001|Diesel engine package.|Hello all.  I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20F for sale, I was  saving this for my own project, but as I yet have to begin with a  hull I think my limited funds would be better served to begin with a  hull and such. Hence I will sell the engine/transmission package and  go from there. The engine was recently rebuilt by authorized marine  diesel distr to the tune of $3600.00.  It includes an engine,  transmission, coupling & instrument panel. I will atempt to attach a  copy of the invoice and a photo.  If this does not work I will place  a copy of the receipt and some photos in the files section. Thank you.   Ordered	Shipped	B/O	Part #	Description	Each	Amount	Type 	Cost 			w/o 10947. Repair engine s/n25866 	 		I	 			Clean, assess, rbld head, overhaul piston  			I	 			rod assembly.Disassemble cooling syst, 	 		I	 			water pump ht exch & service 		 	I	 1	1		*104511-7878	V-Belt 	27.42	27.42	M 	17.82 2	2		*105225-1110	Valve Intake 	25.99	51.98 	M	16.89 2	2		*105225-1111	Valve Exhaust 	24.50	49.00 	M	15.93 2	2		*105225-2230	Piston Pin 	38.49	76.98 	M	25.02 2	2		*105225-2319	Wrist Pin Bush 	28.51	57.02 	M	18.53 2	2		*105325-2257	Piston 	302.88	605.76	M 	196.87 1	1		*119660-3515	Oil Filter 	11.34	11.34 	M	7.37 1	1		*121450-0180	Seal GM 	10.51	10.51 	M	6.83 1	1		*121450-0210	Main BRG Front GM 	50.99 	50.99	M	33.14 1	1		*121450-0211	Main BRG Rear GM 	64.48 	64.48	M	41.91 1	1		*121450-0216	Main BRG 	66.99	66.99 	M	43.54 1	1		*124085-0222	Seal 	35.50	35.50	M 	23.07 4	4		*124950-1134	Valve stem seal 	11.01 	44.04	M	7.16 1	1		*128290-1325	Gasket 	15.01	15.01	M 	9.76 2	2		*128695-4407	Seal Ring 	15.53	31.06 	M	10.09 2	2		*705311-2360	Rod BRG 	41.98	83.96 	M	27.29 1	1		*728271-9260	Gasket Kit 	326.88	326.88 	M	212.47 1	1		*OAO1361 	Service GM10/20/30 	68.80 	68.80	O	49.50 1	1		*128270-2165	Front pulley assembly 	90.80 	90.80	O	65.39 1	1		*16535 	Bore 2 cyl block out 	166.70	166.70 	O	142.57 1	1		LABOUR 	Mechanic, 18.0 hrs @ $68.00/hr 	1224.00	1224.00	L	456.84 	Subtotal:	$3,159.22		1760.09 	GST: 	$221.15		44.3% 	PST: 	$221.15		 	Invoice Total:	$3,601.52|
926|925|2002-06-24 23:25:18|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Diesel engine package.|What is the horsepower of the engine?  Also, what is the gear ratio on the transmission, and what make of transmission (eg. Borg-Warner, Hurth, etc).  Alex   ----- Original Message ----- From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 8:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel engine package.   > Hello all.  I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20F for sale, I was > saving this for my own project, but as I yet have to begin with a > hull I think my limited funds would be better served to begin with a > hull and such. Hence I will sell the engine/transmission package and > go from there. The engine was recently rebuilt by authorized marine > diesel distr to the tune of $3600.00.  It includes an engine, > transmission, coupling & instrument panel. I will atempt to attach a > copy of the invoice and a photo.  If this does not work I will place > a copy of the receipt and some photos in the files section. > Thank you. > > > Ordered Shipped B/O Part # Description Each Amount Type > Cost > w/o 10947. Repair engine s/n25866 > I > Clean, assess, rbld head, overhaul piston > I > rod assembly.Disassemble cooling syst, > I > water pump ht exch & service > I > 1 1 *104511-7878 V-Belt 27.42 27.42 M > 17.82 > 2 2 *105225-1110 Valve Intake 25.99 51.98 > M 16.89 > 2 2 *105225-1111 Valve Exhaust 24.50 49.00 > M 15.93 > 2 2 *105225-2230 Piston Pin 38.49 76.98 > M 25.02 > 2 2 *105225-2319 Wrist Pin Bush 28.51 57.02 > M 18.53 > 2 2 *105325-2257 Piston 302.88 605.76 M > 196.87 > 1 1 *119660-3515 Oil Filter 11.34 11.34 > M 7.37 > 1 1 *121450-0180 Seal GM 10.51 10.51 > M 6.83 > 1 1 *121450-0210 Main BRG Front GM 50.99 > 50.99 M 33.14 > 1 1 *121450-0211 Main BRG Rear GM 64.48 > 64.48 M 41.91 > 1 1 *121450-0216 Main BRG 66.99 66.99 > M 43.54 > 1 1 *124085-0222 Seal 35.50 35.50 M > 23.07 > 4 4 *124950-1134 Valve stem seal 11.01 > 44.04 M 7.16 > 1 1 *128290-1325 Gasket 15.01 15.01 M > 9.76 > 2 2 *128695-4407 Seal Ring 15.53 31.06 > M 10.09 > 2 2 *705311-2360 Rod BRG 41.98 83.96 > M 27.29 > 1 1 *728271-9260 Gasket Kit 326.88 326.88 > M 212.47 > 1 1 *OAO1361 Service GM10/20/30 68.80 > 68.80 O 49.50 > 1 1 *128270-2165 Front pulley assembly 90.80 > 90.80 O 65.39 > 1 1 *16535 Bore 2 cyl block out 166.70 166.70 > O 142.57 > 1 1 LABOUR Mechanic, 18.0 hrs @ $68.00/hr > 1224.00 1224.00 L 456.84 > Subtotal: $3,159.22 1760.09 > GST: $221.15 44.3% > PST: $221.15 > Invoice Total: $3,601.52 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
927|22|2002-06-24 23:34:24|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello,  This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats  group.    File        : /Yanmar diesel engine./top view.JPG    Uploaded by : rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@...>    Description : top view.   You can access this file at the URL  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Yanmar%20diesel%20engine./top%20view.JPG   To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit  http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files  Regards,  rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@...>|
928|925|2002-06-24 23:56:31|rbyzitter2001|Re: Diesel engine package.|The continuous HP rating is is 16/3400 rpm, or 12/2500rpm.  The  transmission is Yanmar KM2-C 2.5/1.  --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" <origamiboats@t...>  wrote:  > What is the horsepower of the engine? >  > Also, what is the gear ratio on the transmission, and what make of > transmission (eg. Borg-Warner, Hurth, etc). >  > Alex >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 8:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel engine package. >  >  > > Hello all.  I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20F for sale, I   was  > > saving this for my own project, but as I yet have to begin with a > > hull I think my limited funds would be better served to begin   with a  > > hull and such. Hence I will sell the engine/transmission package   and  > > go from there. The engine was recently rebuilt by authorized   marine  > > diesel distr to the tune of $3600.00.  It includes an engine, > > transmission, coupling & instrument panel. I will atempt to   attach a  > > copy of the invoice and a photo.  If this does not work I will   place  > > a copy of the receipt and some photos in the files section. > > Thank you. > > > > > > Ordered Shipped B/O Part # Description Each Amount Type > > Cost > > w/o 10947. Repair engine s/n25866 > > I > > Clean, assess, rbld head, overhaul piston > > I > > rod assembly.Disassemble cooling syst, > > I > > water pump ht exch & service > > I > > 1 1 *104511-7878 V-Belt 27.42 27.42 M > > 17.82 > > 2 2 *105225-1110 Valve Intake 25.99 51.98 > > M 16.89 > > 2 2 *105225-1111 Valve Exhaust 24.50 49.00 > > M 15.93 > > 2 2 *105225-2230 Piston Pin 38.49 76.98 > > M 25.02 > > 2 2 *105225-2319 Wrist Pin Bush 28.51 57.02 > > M 18.53 > > 2 2 *105325-2257 Piston 302.88 605.76 M > > 196.87 > > 1 1 *119660-3515 Oil Filter 11.34 11.34 > > M 7.37 > > 1 1 *121450-0180 Seal GM 10.51 10.51 > > M 6.83 > > 1 1 *121450-0210 Main BRG Front GM 50.99 > > 50.99 M 33.14 > > 1 1 *121450-0211 Main BRG Rear GM 64.48 > > 64.48 M 41.91 > > 1 1 *121450-0216 Main BRG 66.99 66.99 > > M 43.54 > > 1 1 *124085-0222 Seal 35.50 35.50 M > > 23.07 > > 4 4 *124950-1134 Valve stem seal 11.01 > > 44.04 M 7.16 > > 1 1 *128290-1325 Gasket 15.01 15.01 M > > 9.76 > > 2 2 *128695-4407 Seal Ring 15.53 31.06 > > M 10.09 > > 2 2 *705311-2360 Rod BRG 41.98 83.96 > > M 27.29 > > 1 1 *728271-9260 Gasket Kit 326.88 326.88 > > M 212.47 > > 1 1 *OAO1361 Service GM10/20/30 68.80 > > 68.80 O 49.50 > > 1 1 *128270-2165 Front pulley assembly 90.80 > > 90.80 O 65.39 > > 1 1 *16535 Bore 2 cyl block out 166.70 166.70 > > O 142.57 > > 1 1 LABOUR Mechanic, 18.0 hrs @ $68.00/hr > > 1224.00 1224.00 L 456.84 > > Subtotal: $3,159.22 1760.09 > > GST: $221.15 44.3% > > PST: $221.15 > > Invoice Total: $3,601.52 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/  > > > > > > |
929|920|2002-06-25 17:34:22|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|The boat is in East Richmond. Your welcome to come over and have a  look. When would you be available? I'll need to unlock for you. Gord    ----- Original Message ----- From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@...> Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:06 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.  > <span><p><span><p> >  >  > <tt> > Thank you for the reply.  Where is the hull currently and would  > you  >  > be OK with someone (me) having a look around? >  > origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: >  > > I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. >  > > Gord >  > >  >  > > ----- Original Message ----- >  > > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> >  > > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:27 pm >  > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hulls in the vancouver area. >  > >  >  > > > <span><p><span><p> >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > > <tt> >  > > > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any  > &quot;work in  >  > > > progress  >  > > >  >  > > > hulls&quot; in the Vancouver area.  I would like to  > have a look  >  > at  >  > > > them to  >  > > >  >  > > > help understand some of the finer details of this part  > of the  >  > > >  >  > > > opperation. >  > > >  >  > > > Cheers >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > > </tt> >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > > <tt> >  > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >  > > >  >  > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >  > > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > >  >  > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the  > Yahoo! Terms of  >  > > > Service.</tt></br> >  > > >  >  > > > </span></span> >  > > >  >  > > > >  >  >  > </tt> >  >  >  >  > <tt> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt> >  >  >  >  > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.</tt></br> >  > </span></span> >  > |
930|925|2002-06-25 17:49:21|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Diesel engine package.|Have you considered splitting the package up? If so, what type and  model is the transmission? Gord    ----- Original Message ----- From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@...> Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 8:20 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel engine package.  > <span><p><span><p> >  >  > <tt> > Hello all.  I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20F for sale, I  > was  >  > saving this for my own project, but as I yet have to begin with a  >  > hull I think my limited funds would be better served to begin with  > a  >  > hull and such. Hence I will sell the engine/transmission package  > and  >  > go from there. The engine was recently rebuilt by authorized  > marine  >  > diesel distr to the tune of $3600.00.  It includes an engine,  >  > transmission, coupling & instrument panel. I will atempt to  > attach a  >  > copy of the invoice and a photo.  If this does not work I will  > place  >  > a copy of the receipt and some photos in the files section. >  > Thank you. >  >  >  >  >  > Ordered      Shipped      B/O      Part #      Description       > Each      Amount      Type >  >      Cost >  >                  w/o 10947. Repair engine s/n25866        >  >            I       >  >                  Clean, assess, rbld head, overhaul piston  >  >                  I       >  >                  rod assembly.Disassemble cooling syst,        >  >            I       >  >                  water pump ht exch & service              >  >      I       >  > 1      1            *104511-7878      V-Belt       27.42       > 27.42      M >  >      17.82 >  > 2      2            *105225-1110      Valve Intake       25.99      > 51.98 >  >      M      16.89 >  > 2      2            *105225-1111      Valve Exhaust       24.50     >  49.00 >  >      M      15.93 >  > 2      2            *105225-2230      Piston Pin       38.49       > 76.98 >      M      25.02 >  > 2      2            *105225-2319      Wrist Pin Bush       28.51    >   57.02 >  >      M      18.53 >  > 2      2            *105325-2257      Piston       302.88       > 605.76      M >  >      196.87 >  > 1      1            *119660-3515      Oil Filter       11.34       > 11.34 >      M      7.37 >  > 1      1            *121450-0180      Seal GM       10.51      10.51 >  >      M      6.83 >  > 1      1            *121450-0210      Main BRG Front GM       50.99 >  >      50.99      M      33.14 >  > 1      1            *121450-0211      Main BRG Rear GM       64.48 >  >      64.48      M      41.91 >  > 1      1            *121450-0216      Main BRG       66.99      66.99 >  >      M      43.54 >  > 1      1            *124085-0222      Seal       35.50      35.50   >    M >  >      23.07 >  > 4      4            *124950-1134      Valve stem seal       11.01 >  >      44.04      M      7.16 >  > 1      1            *128290-1325      Gasket       15.01       > 15.01      M >  >      9.76 >  > 2      2            *128695-4407      Seal Ring       15.53      31.06 >  >      M      10.09 >  > 2      2            *705311-2360      Rod BRG       41.98      83.96 >  >      M      27.29 >  > 1      1            *728271-9260      Gasket Kit       326.88       > 326.88 >      M      212.47 >  > 1      1            *OAO1361       Service GM10/20/30       68.80 >  >      68.80      O      49.50 >  > 1      1            *128270-2165      Front pulley assembly        > 90.80 >      90.80      O      65.39 >  > 1      1            *16535       Bore 2 cyl block out       166.70  >     166.70 >  >      O      142.57 >  > 1      1            LABOUR       Mechanic, 18.0 hrs @ $68.00/hr >  >      1224.00      1224.00      L      456.84 >  >      Subtotal:      $3,159.22            1760.09 >  >      GST:       $221.15            44.3% >  >      PST:       $221.15             >  >      Invoice Total:      $3,601.52             >  >  >  >  >  > </tt> >  >  >  >  > <tt> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</tt> >  >  >  >  > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.</tt></br> >  > </span></span> >  > |
931|920|2002-06-26 11:58:32|rbyzitter2001|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|I work in the Tilbury Ind. park area of Delta, so, anytime would be  easy for me.  It's just a short hop over the bridge or through the  tunnel.  Where about in east Richmond? Cheers.   --- In origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > The boat is in East Richmond. Your welcome to come over and have a  > look. When would you be available? I'll need to unlock for you. > Gord >  >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:06 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. >  > > <span><p><span><p> > >  > >  > > <tt> > > Thank you for the reply.  Where is the hull currently and would  > > you  > >  > > be OK with someone (me) having a look around? > >  > > origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > >  > > > I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. > >  > > > Gord > >  > > >  > >  > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >  > > > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s... > >  > > > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:27 pm > >  > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hulls in the vancouver area. > >  > > >  > >  > > > > <span><p><span><p> > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > <tt> > >  > > > > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware of any  > > &quot;work in  > >  > > > > progress  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > hulls&quot; in the Vancouver area.  I would like to  > > have a look  > >  > > at  > >  > > > > them to  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > help understand some of the finer details of this part  > > of the  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > opperation. > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > Cheers > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > </tt> > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > <tt> > >  > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >  > > > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the  > > Yahoo! Terms of  > >  > > > > Service.</tt></br> > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > </span></span> > >  > > > >  > >  > > > > > >  > >  > >  > > </tt> > >  > >  > >  > >  > > <tt> > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > >  > >  > >  > >  > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > > Service.</tt></br> > >  > > </span></span> > >  > > |
932|925|2002-06-26 12:15:28|rbyzitter2001|Re: Diesel engine package.|It's a Yanmar Transmission. I would rather not break them up.  As it  is a current "of the shelf" factory package as it site right now. Are you looking for a transmission?  If so what are the specifics? Cheers       --- In origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > Have you considered splitting the package up? If so, what type and  > model is the transmission? > Gord >  >  > ----- Original Message ----- > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 8:20 pm > Subject: [origamiboats] Diesel engine package. >  > > <span><p><span><p> > >  > >  > > <tt> > > Hello all.  I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20F for sale, I  > > was  > >  > > saving this for my own project, but as I yet have to begin with a  > >  > > hull I think my limited funds would be better served to begin  with  > > a  > >  > > hull and such. Hence I will sell the engine/transmission package  > > and  > >  > > go from there. The engine was recently rebuilt by authorized  > > marine  > >  > > diesel distr to the tune of $3600.00.  It includes an engine,  > >  > > transmission, coupling & instrument panel. I will atempt to  > > attach a  > >  > > copy of the invoice and a photo.  If this does not work I will  > > place  > >  > > a copy of the receipt and some photos in the files section. > >  > > Thank you. > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > Ordered      Shipped      B/O      Part #      Description       > > Each      Amount      Type > >  > >      Cost > >  > >                  w/o 10947. Repair engine s/n25866        > >  > >            I       > >  > >                  Clean, assess, rbld head, overhaul piston  > >  > >                  I       > >  > >                  rod assembly.Disassemble cooling syst,        > >  > >            I       > >  > >                  water pump ht exch & service              > >  > >      I       > >  > > 1      1            *104511-7878      V-Belt       27.42       > > 27.42      M > >  > >      17.82 > >  > > 2      2            *105225-1110      Valve Intake        25.99      > > 51.98 > >  > >      M      16.89 > >  > > 2      2            *105225-1111      Valve Exhaust        24.50     > >  49.00 > >  > >      M      15.93 > >  > > 2      2            *105225-2230      Piston Pin       38.49       > > 76.98 > >      M      25.02 > >  > > 2      2            *105225-2319      Wrist Pin Bush        28.51    > >   57.02 > >  > >      M      18.53 > >  > > 2      2            *105325-2257      Piston       302.88       > > 605.76      M > >  > >      196.87 > >  > > 1      1            *119660-3515      Oil Filter       11.34       > > 11.34 > >      M      7.37 > >  > > 1      1            *121450-0180      Seal GM       10.51       10.51 > >  > >      M      6.83 > >  > > 1      1            *121450-0210      Main BRG Front GM        50.99 > >  > >      50.99      M      33.14 > >  > > 1      1            *121450-0211      Main BRG Rear GM       64.48 > >  > >      64.48      M      41.91 > >  > > 1      1            *121450-0216      Main BRG       66.99       66.99 > >  > >      M      43.54 > >  > > 1      1            *124085-0222      Seal       35.50       35.50   > >    M > >  > >      23.07 > >  > > 4      4            *124950-1134      Valve stem seal       11.01 > >  > >      44.04      M      7.16 > >  > > 1      1            *128290-1325      Gasket       15.01       > > 15.01      M > >  > >      9.76 > >  > > 2      2            *128695-4407      Seal Ring       15.53       31.06 > >  > >      M      10.09 > >  > > 2      2            *705311-2360      Rod BRG       41.98       83.96 > >  > >      M      27.29 > >  > > 1      1            *728271-9260      Gasket Kit        326.88       > > 326.88 > >      M      212.47 > >  > > 1      1            *OAO1361       Service GM10/20/30       68.80 > >  > >      68.80      O      49.50 > >  > > 1      1            *128270-2165      Front pulley assembly        > > 90.80 > >      90.80      O      65.39 > >  > > 1      1            *16535       Bore 2 cyl block out        166.70  > >     166.70 > >  > >      O      142.57 > >  > > 1      1            LABOUR       Mechanic, 18.0 hrs @ $68.00/hr > >  > >      1224.00      1224.00      L      456.84 > >  > >      Subtotal:      $3,159.22            1760.09 > >  > >      GST:       $221.15            44.3% > >  > >      PST:       $221.15             > >  > >      Invoice Total:      $3,601.52             > >  > >  > >  > >  > >  > > </tt> > >  > >  > >  > >  > > <tt> > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > >  > >  > >  > >  > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > > Service.</tt></br> > >  > > </span></span> > >  > > |
933|933|2002-06-26 16:23:05|edward_stoneuk|Chine welding|Brent,  Is there a recommended way and sequence of welding the longitudinal  chine seam and transverse seam?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
934|920|2002-06-27 01:56:02|Gord Schnell|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|She's at the south end of Boundary Rd (4693 Boundary Rd.). I'll br there Thurs. after 4PM. Gord  rbyzitter2001 wrote:  >  > I work in the Tilbury Ind. park area of Delta, so, anytime > would be > easy for me.  It's just a short hop over the bridge or > through the > tunnel.  Where about in east Richmond? > Cheers. >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > > The boat is in East Richmond. Your welcome to come over > and have a > > look. When would you be available? I'll need to unlock > for you. > > Gord > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> > > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:06 pm > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. > > > > > <span><p><span><p> > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > Thank you for the reply.  Where is the hull currently > and would > > > you > > > > > > be OK with someone (me) having a look around? > > > > > > origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > > > > > > > I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. > > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s... > > > > > > > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:27 pm > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hulls in the vancouver > area. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <span><p><span><p> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > > > > > > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware > of any > > > &quot;work in > > > > > > > > progress > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hulls&quot; in the Vancouver area.  I > would like to > > > have a look > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > them to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > help understand some of the finer details of > this part > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opperation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > > > > > > > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject > to the > > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > > > > > > Service.</tt></br> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </span></span> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > > Service.</tt></br> > > > > > > </span></span> > > > > > > >  > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
935|920|2002-06-27 12:12:49|rbyzitter2001|Re: Hulls in the vancouver area.|I will try and get down there, it will be after 4 some time dependant  on traffic.  Thank you. Cheers.    --- In origamiboats@y..., Gord Schnell <gschnell@s...> wrote: > She's at the south end of Boundary Rd (4693 Boundary Rd.). > I'll br there Thurs. after 4PM. > Gord >  > rbyzitter2001 wrote: > >  > > I work in the Tilbury Ind. park area of Delta, so, anytime > > would be > > easy for me.  It's just a short hop over the bridge or > > through the > > tunnel.  Where about in east Richmond? > > Cheers. > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > > > The boat is in East Richmond. Your welcome to come over > > and have a > > > look. When would you be available? I'll need to unlock > > for you. > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s...> > > > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:06 pm > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. > > > > > > > <span><p><span><p> > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > > Thank you for the reply.  Where is the hull currently > > and would > > > > you > > > > > > > > be OK with someone (me) having a look around? > > > > > > > > origamiboats@y..., gschnell@s... wrote: > > > > > > > > > I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. > > > > > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: rbyzitter2001 <slacktide@s... > > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:27 pm > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hulls in the vancouver > > area. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <span><p><span><p> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > > > > > > > > Hello all.  I was wandering, is anyone aware > > of any > > > > &quot;work in > > > > > > > > > > progress > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hulls&quot; in the Vancouver area.  I > > would like to > > > > have a look > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > them to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > help understand some of the finer details of > > this part > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > opperation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats- > > > > > > > > > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject > > to the > > > > Yahoo! Terms of > > > > > > > > > > Service.</tt></br> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </span></span> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > </tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt> > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@y...</tt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of > > > > Service.</tt></br> > > > > > > > > </span></span> > > > > > > > > > >  > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. |
936|936|2002-06-27 17:28:56|rbyzitter2001|attachments|Hello.  How does one attach photos to a posting?|
937|933|2002-06-28 17:23:38|brentswain38|Re: Chine welding|The chine seam is not all that critical. I usually weld the inside  first,with 1/8th inch 7024, with six inch welds, moving about randomly  until they all connect.Then I grind all the slag out from the outside  with a 1/8th inch cutting disc , and weld the outside the same way  with 5/32  6011.    For the transverse seam across the bottom,I do the weld when each  side is together , before pulling the centreline together. I usually  grind a full 45 degree bevel on one edge for full penetration , then  tack several pieces of scrap accross the seam on edge,and the  connecting pieces for the stringers to keep it straight and stop it  from kinking downward or up, during the welding.Putting a piece of  dunnage under the seam and letting the weight of the hull come down on  it will usually bulge this seam upward. You can then tack the scrap  pieces and pieces of stringer to one side of the seam , then pull  the  dunnage out and it wil fall back to a straight position. I then weld  it with 1/8th inch 7024 in three inch tacks, moving about randomly  until they all connect. I then break the scrap pieces off and weld  where I've missed. The outside weld, I do after the hull has been  pulled together . There I grind the slag out and weld it up with three  inch welds with 1/8th inch 6011, moving about randomly until they all  connect. I then grind them flush .   If you can't get full length plates , and have to do a seam in the  middle of the topside plates, it's best to do the inside weld while  the plate is flat on the ground, with 1/8th inch 6011,and short two  inch welds , letting each one cool before putting another weld next to  it, and lots of stiffners accross the seam.Make sure it stays flat  during the welding.   After the hull is pulled together, I weld the outside with very  small uphand welds of about two inches each with 1/8th inch 6011.   If they don't come out fair, these welds can easily be cut and  corrected after the hull is together , and the decks are on.For the  transverse bottom seam, cutting it free and pumping it back into shape  with a hydraulic jack off the ground ,is easy.      Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > Brent, >  > Is there a recommended way and sequence of welding the longitudinal  > chine seam and transverse seam? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone |
938|938|2002-06-30 08:19:07|edward_stoneuk|Welding Rods|Brent,  With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What  properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is  because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011  although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst  others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine  starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together,  which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds in  6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to  grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this  time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which is  obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual  welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a decent fit  other than offering it up and trimming off?  Regards,  Ted Stone|
939|938|2002-06-30 12:50:35|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|    Message      I'm  not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since I'm in general  interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle of welding classes  and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses, all positions"  certification.  Your note below raises several issues that we've been  covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and teacher have been  saying.  Those with more practical experience can add/subtract from what  I'll say:      - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but does not penetrate  deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and applications where high  strength is not needed.      - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that work well  for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other weld positions.   Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging' characteristic.   Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position welding where high strength  is required.  Downside is that these electrodes spatter  more.      - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is good for poor  fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.  This electrode is a  general purpose electrode for production operation but is not for high strength  applications.   For  high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for flat and  horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and overhead  welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high strength.   If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding pipes, use 6010/6011.   7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get porosity.   For  your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.  Porosity is one,  e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you were welding, welding  technique, contamination due to humidity or age etc.)  Porosity can result  in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.  Lifting the rod from the end of  the weld too quickly (loss of shielding) can start a crater crack which  propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base metal (doesn't apply here.)  With  high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack may have started at the filler-to-base  metal interface because 6013 doesn't have as deep a penetration as 6011 for  example.  A combination of the above...you'll have to examine your welds to  figure out which issue(s) you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off  here...just passing on class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of  welding experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic  answer, but I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to  think about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require a  reasonably high level of expertise to get it right.   Brian            -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2002    5:19 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Welding RodsBrent,With regard    to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What properties are    you particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is because my usual    supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011 although they have five    types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst others.  I use a high frequency    DC welder.  I welded the chine starting from both ends.  As I    pulled the bottom sheets together, which causes the chine angle to change,    some of the existing welds in 6013 cracked longituduinally down the    centre.  It is no problem to grind and reweld but obviously I would    like to do it right this time.  The other thing is that the    transverse join overlaps which is obviously better than not meeting and    understandable given usual welding tolerances.  Do you have any    advice on getting a decent fit other than offering it up and trimming    off?Regards,Ted StoneTo Post a message,    send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a    blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.    |
940|938|2002-06-30 20:49:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding Rods| Message         Brian, It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions.  Pipe welders often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate  pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had lots of  welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should be kept  in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture it welds  poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position but the very  fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is popular for low  pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it sure doesn't make  very strong welds.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Brian    Dixon    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50  PM   <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Welding    Rods      I'm    not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since I'm in general    interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle of welding classes    and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses, all positions"    certification.  Your note below raises several issues that we've been    covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and teacher have been    saying.  Those with more practical experience can add/subtract from what    I'll say:         - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but    does not penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and    applications where high strength is not needed.         - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes    that work well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other weld    positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging'    characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position    welding where high strength is required.  Downside is that these    electrodes spatter more.         - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is    good for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.  This    electrode is a general purpose electrode for production operation but is not    for high strength applications.       For    high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for flat and    horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and overhead    welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high strength.     If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding pipes, use    6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get    porosity.       For    your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.  Porosity is    one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you were welding,    welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age etc.)  Porosity    can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.  Lifting the rod    from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding) can start a crater    crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base metal (doesn't apply    here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack may have started at    the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013 doesn't have as deep a    penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination of the above...you'll    have to examine your welds to figure out which issue(s) you might have.     Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just passing on class notes really,    because I don't have a helluva lot of welding experience yet.  Someone    else might provide a more pragmatic answer, but I thought I'd share what we've    been told anyway...some things to think about I guess.  Welding's not a    simple topic and does require a reasonably high level of expertise to get it    right.       Brian                     -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk      [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2002      5:19 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>      [origamiboats] Welding RodsBrent,With      regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What      properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is      because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011      although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst      others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine      starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together,      which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds in      6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to      grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this      time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which      is obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual      welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a decent fit      other than offering it up and trimming off?Regards,Ted      StoneTo Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service. To Post a message, send it    to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank    message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use    of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.    |
941|938|2002-06-30 21:54:52|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|    Message          Thanks  for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my instructor mentioned that  the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask him some more about that  to get his feedback...he worked in industry for about 20 years, and now has over  20 years as a teacher and has seen over 3000 of his students become  certified..impressive.  He's full of info and advice on how NOT to do it  and how TO do it.  I look for him in particular when I sign up for  classes.   It  surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding supply shop didn't have  6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the staples of the  industry and no welding shop should be without the full  set...   Brian        -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Gary H. Lucas    [mailto:gary.lucas@...] <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49    PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> Re:    [origamiboats] Welding Rods   Brian,   It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions.    Pipe welders often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate    pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had lots of    welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should be kept    in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture it welds    poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position but the very    fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is popular for low    pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it sure doesn't    make very strong welds.       Gary H. Lucas        ----- Original Message -----      <b>From:</b>      Brian      Dixon      <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com           <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50      PM     <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Welding      Rods          I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since I'm      in general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle of      welding classes and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses, all      positions" certification.  Your note below raises several issues that      we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and teacher have      been saying.  Those with more practical experience can add/subtract      from what I'll say:             - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but      does not penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and      applications where high strength is not needed.             - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze      electrodes that work well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the      other weld positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to their      'digging' characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for      odd-position welding where high strength is required.  Downside is that      these electrodes spatter more.             - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that      is good for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.       This electrode is a general purpose electrode for production operation but      is not for high strength applications.           For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for      flat and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and      overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high      strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding pipes,      use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get      porosity.           For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.       Porosity is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you      were welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age      etc.)  Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks      longitudinally.  Lifting the rod from the end of the weld too quickly      (loss of shielding) can start a crater crack which propagates.       Mismatch of rod to base metal (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress      on a 6013 weld, the crack may have started at the filler-to-base metal      interface because 6013 doesn't have as deep a penetration as 6011 for      example.  A combination of the above...you'll have to examine your      welds to figure out which issue(s) you might have.  Note: I hope I'm      not too far off here...just passing on class notes really, because I don't      have a helluva lot of welding experience yet.  Someone else might      provide a more pragmatic answer, but I thought I'd share what we've been      told anyway...some things to think about I guess.  Welding's not a      simple topic and does require a reasonably high level of expertise to get it      right.           Brian                               -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b>        edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b>        Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM<b>To:</b>        origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Welding        RodsBrent,With regard to your        recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What properties are you        particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is because my usual        supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011 although they have        five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst others.  I use a high        frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine starting from both        ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together, which causes the        chine angle to change, some of the existing welds in 6013 cracked        longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to grind and        reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this time.  The        other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which is obviously        better than not meeting and understandable given usual welding        tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a decent fit other        than offering it up and trimming off?Regards,Ted        StoneTo Post a message, send it to:          origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:        origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of        Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.        To Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service. To Post a message, send it    to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank    message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use    of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.    |
942|942|2002-07-01 11:53:59|greenguy2ca|A few good stuffs|I will be in the market soon for a used diesel, lead for keels and  stainless lifelines.  Boat is located at Nanaimo BC.  If there is any  advantage to joint purchase or any leads would be appreciated.  Thanks.... Gary|
943|938|2002-07-01 19:29:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Welding Rods|Brian and Gary, Thanks for your advice.  I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods and  especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his mail.   The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.  Thyssen is a  German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is why  they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers that I use,  one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock.   They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't have any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly from one  side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I guess unless  you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look after.    My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the first two  numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile  strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding  positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and the  last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is  therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable for  flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating, which gives  weld metal recovery greater than 100%.  On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the fact  that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was bent  the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate was  bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the other  side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason for using a  rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of steel.   Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable than  mine at a local technical college evening classes last winter.  When  I asked him about the properties of the different rods he  replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some another".   Probably true but not the answer I was expecting.  Regards,  Ted Stone    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: >   > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my instructor > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask him  some > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for  about 20 > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over  3000 of > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info and  advice > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in particular  when > I sign up for classes. >   > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding supply  shop > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without the  full > set... >   > Brian >  > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >  >  > Brian, > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe welders > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had lots  of > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should be > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture it  welds > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position but the > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is popular  for > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it  sure > doesn't make very strong welds. >   > Gary H. Lucas >  > ----- Original Message -----  > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  > To: origamiboats@y...  > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >  > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since  I'm in > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle of > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses, all > positions" certification.  Your note below raises several issues  that > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and  teacher > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can  add/subtract > from what I'll say: >   >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but does  not > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and applications > where high strength is not needed. >   >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that  work > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other weld > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging' > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position  welding > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these electrodes > spatter more. >   >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is  good > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.  This > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production operation  but is > not for high strength applications. >   > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for  flat > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding  pipes, > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get > porosity. >   > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.   Porosity > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you were > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age  etc.) > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.   Lifting > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding) can > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base  metal > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack  may > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013  doesn't > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination of  the > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which issue (s) > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just  passing on > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of welding > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic  answer, but > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to  think > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require a > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. >   > Brian >   >   >  > -----Original Message----- > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >  >  > Brent, >  > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What  > properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is  > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011  > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst  > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine  > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together,  > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds  in  > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to  > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this  > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which  is  > obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual  > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a decent fit  > other than offering it up and trimming off? >  > Regards, >  > Ted Stone >  >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.  >  >  >  > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . |
944|938|2002-07-01 20:15:23|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|    Message      Unless  I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds like you've still got some  reversals of logic going on.  Here:   - 6010  and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are for high  strength applications because they penetrate the base metal deeper.  One  can be used AC or DC, the other DC-only I believe...too lazy to look it up right  now.   -  6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are *not* for high  strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very  deeply.   -  7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is for high strength  tough applications because of not only it's deeper penetration but also because  of it's ductility.   -  7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is *not* for high  strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very  deeply.   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using 7024 Jet Rod  for holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for strength) is done on the  other side.  If it were up to me, I'd say to follow his directions exactly,  even if you have to special order the rods.  I would not go off and weld up  a boat with 7024 and 6013 unless you want it to break along those welds when you  are out on the high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with  information from text books and highly experienced welders.   Brian        -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 01, 2002    4:30 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Re: Welding RodsBrian and    Gary,Thanks for your advice.I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep    about the welding rods and especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent    recommended in his mail.  The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version    of 6010.  Thyssen is a German company where they tend to use only DC    welders; so that is why they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the    two suppliers that I use, one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep    6010 rods in stock.  They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess    they don't haveany pipeline welding customers or customers that weld    mostly from one side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so    I guess unless you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look    after.   My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that    the first two numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a    tensile strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding    positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and the    last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is    therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable for    flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating, which gives    weld metal recovery greater than 100%.On reflection the weld    cracking on my project was caused by the fact that the weld metal was    thinner than the plate and when it was bent the stress was greatest at the    weld and it cracked.  The plate was bent as the side was pulled    together and this is before the other side of the join is welded.     This would be a good reason for using a rod such as the 7024 that is    stronger and lays down plenty of steel.Brian your course instructor    sounds a bit more knowledgeable than mine at a local technical college    evening classes last winter.  When I asked him about the properties    of the different rods he replied "Well some welders like to use one sort    and someanother".  Probably true but not the answer I was    expecting.Regards,Ted Stone--- In    origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote:>     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my    instructor> mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.     I'll ask him some> more about that to get his feedback...he worked    in industry for about 20> years, and now has over 20 years as a    teacher and has seen over 3000 of> his students become    certified..impressive.  He's full of info and advice> on how    NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in particular    when> I sign up for classes.>  > It surprises me    that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding supply shop> didn't have    6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the> staples    of the industry and no welding shop should be without the full>    set...>  > Brian> > -----Original    Message-----> From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] >    Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM> To: origamiboats@y...>    Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods> > >    Brian,> It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe    welders> often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to    eliminate> pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where    we had lots of> welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees    Fahrenheit. 7018 should be> kept in a heated rod oven.  If the    coating picks up moisture it welds> poorly.  7018 will make a    nice bead in the vertical position but the> very fluid slag covering    takes skill to control.  6013 is popular for> low pressure    water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it sure> doesn't    make very strong welds.>  > Gary H. Lucas> >    ----- Original Message ----- > From: Brian     <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent:    Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding    Rods> > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in    them since I'm in> general interested in building metal    boats.  I'm in the middle of> welding classes and working towards    "all steel, all thicknesses, all> positions" certification.  Your    note below raises several issues that> we've been covering in    class, so I'll tell you what my book and teacher> have been    saying.  Those with more practical experience can    add/subtract> from what I'll say:>     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use,    but does not> penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack    welding and applications> where high strength is not    needed.>  >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep    penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that work> well for overhead    and vertical welds in addition to the other weld> positions.     Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging'>    characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position    welding> where high strength is required.  Downside is that    these electrodes> spatter more.>  >   -    6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is good>    for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.     This> electrode is a general purpose electrode for production operation    but is> not for high strength applications.>  >    For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for    flat> and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical    and> overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the    high> strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are    welding pipes,> use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal,    otherwise you can get> porosity.>  > For your    cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.  Porosity>    is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you were>    welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age    etc.)> Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks    longitudinally.  Lifting> the rod from the end of the weld too    quickly (loss of shielding) can> start a crater crack which    propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base metal> (doesn't apply    here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack may> have    started at the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013 doesn't>    have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination of    the> above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which    issue(s)> you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off    here...just passing on> class notes really, because I don't have a    helluva lot of welding> experience yet.  Someone else might    provide a more pragmatic answer, but> I thought I'd share what    we've been told anyway...some things to think> about I guess.     Welding's not a simple topic and does require a> reasonably high level    of expertise to get it right.>  > Brian>     >  > > -----Original Message-----> From:    edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > Sent: Sunday, June 30,    2002 5:19 AM> To: origamiboats@y...> Subject: [origamiboats]    Welding Rods> > > Brent,> > With regard to    your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What > properties are    you particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is > because my    usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011 > although    they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst > others.  I    use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine > starting    from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together, > which    causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds in >    6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to    > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this    > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps    which is > obviously better than not meeting and understandable    given usual > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on    getting a decent fit > other than offering it up and trimming    off?> > Regards,> > Ted Stone> >    > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...>    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of    Service> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>    . > > > > To Post a message, send it    to:   origamiboats@y...> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message    to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>    Terms of Service. > > > > To Post a message, send    it to:   origamiboats@y...> To Unsubscribe, send a blank    message to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use    of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>    .To Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
945|938|2002-07-01 20:48:03|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding Rods| Message         Brian, You have it right.  Just as a point of  interest.  I did a repair on drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from  T1 steel.  I had to use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Brian    Dixon    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM   <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods      Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds like you've    still got some reversals of logic going on.  Here:       -    6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are for    high strength applications because they penetrate the base metal deeper.     One can be used AC or DC, the other DC-only I believe...too lazy to look it up    right now.       -    6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are *not* for high    strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very    deeply.       -    7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is for high strength    tough applications because of not only it's deeper penetration but also    because of it's ductility.       -    7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is *not* for high    strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very    deeply.       Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using 7024 Jet    Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for strength) is done    on the other side.  If it were up to me, I'd say to follow his directions    exactly, even if you have to special order the rods.  I would not go off    and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013 unless you want it to break along those    welds when you are out on the high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back    it up with information from text books and highly experienced    welders.       Brian             -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk      [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 01, 2002      4:30 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>      [origamiboats] Re: Welding RodsBrian and      Gary,Thanks for your advice.I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep      about the welding rods and especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent      recommended in his mail.  The rep advised that 6011 is the AC      version of 6010.  Thyssen is a German company where they tend to      use only DC welders; so that is why they don't sell 6011 rods.       Neither of the two suppliers that I use, one selling Oerlikon rods and      one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock.  They refer to them as      pipeline rods so I guess they don't haveany pipeline welding customers      or customers that weld mostly from one side.  The rods must be kept      dry and not re-dried so I guess unless you need deep penetration then a      6013 rod is easier to look after.   My understanding of the      AWS numbering system is that the first two numbers refer to the tensile      strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the      third number shows the welding positions, e.g. **1* equals any position,      **2* equals flat and the last number I cannot remember what it      means.  The 7024 rod is therefore, if I have got this right, a      70,000 psi rod suitable for flat welding.  It also has iron powder      in the coating, which gives weld metal recovery greater than      100%.On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the      fact that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was bent      the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate was      bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the other      side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason for using      a rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of      steel.Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable      than mine at a local technical college evening classes last      winter.  When I asked him about the properties of the different      rods he replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and      someanother".  Probably true but not the answer I was      expecting.Regards,Ted Stone--- In      origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote:>       > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my      instructor> mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is      common.  I'll ask him some> more about that to get his      feedback...he worked in industry for about 20> years, and now has      over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over 3000 of> his      students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info and      advice> on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for      him in particular when> I sign up for classes.>       > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding supply      shop> didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018      would be the> staples of the industry and no welding shop should be      without the full> set...>  > Brian>      > -----Original Message-----> From: Gary H. Lucas      [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49      PM> To: origamiboats@y...> Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding      Rods> > > Brian,> It all sounds about right to      me. A few minor additions. Pipe welders> often use 6010 as a root      pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate> pinholes.  We used to      do this in a plastics plant where we had lots of> welded piping      carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should be> kept in a      heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture it welds>      poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position but      the> very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is      popular for> low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse      industry, but it sure> doesn't make very strong      welds.>  > Gary H. Lucas> > ----- Original      Message ----- > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon      > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50      PM> Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods> > I'm not      building an origami boat, but am interested in them since I'm in>      general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle      of> welding classes and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses,      all> positions" certification.  Your note below raises several      issues that> we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what      my book and teacher> have been saying.  Those with more      practical experience can add/subtract> from what I'll      say:>  >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff)      is very easy to use, but does not> penetrate deeply.  Good      for back side tack welding and applications> where high strength is      not needed.>  >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep      penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that work> well for overhead      and vertical welds in addition to the other weld> positions.       Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging'>      characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position      welding> where high strength is required.  Downside is that      these electrodes> spatter more.>  >   -      6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is      good> for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint      welding.  This> electrode is a general purpose electrode for      production operation but is> not for high strength      applications.>  > For high strength applications, my      instructor recommends 7018 for flat> and horizontal (I think)      welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and> overhead welds.  7024      and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high> strength.  If you      have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding pipes,> use      6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get>      porosity.>  > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be      several problems.  Porosity> is one, e.g. from atmospheric      contamination (a breeze where you were> welding, welding technique,      contamination due to humidity or age etc.)> Porosity can result      in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.  Lifting> the rod      from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding) can> start a      crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base      metal> (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013      weld, the crack may> have started at the filler-to-base metal      interface because 6013 doesn't> have as deep a penetration as      6011 for example.  A combination of the> above...you'll have      to examine your welds to figure out which issue(s)> you might      have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just passing      on> class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of      welding> experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more      pragmatic answer, but> I thought I'd share what we've been told      anyway...some things to think> about I guess.  Welding's not      a simple topic and does require a> reasonably high level of expertise      to get it right.>  > Brian>  >       > > -----Original Message-----> From: edward_stoneuk      [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19      AM> To: origamiboats@y...> Subject: [origamiboats] Welding      Rods> > > Brent,> > With regard to your      recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What > properties are you      particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is > because my      usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011 > although      they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst > others.       I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine > starting      from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together, > which      causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds in >      6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to      > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this      > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps      which is > obviously better than not meeting and understandable      given usual > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on      getting a decent fit > other than offering it up and trimming      off?> > Regards,> > Ted Stone> >      > To Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@y...> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:>      origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is      subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>      . > > > > To Post a message, send it      to:   origamiboats@y...> To Unsubscribe, send a blank      message to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use      of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>      Terms of Service. > > > > To Post a message,      send it to:   origamiboats@y...> To Unsubscribe, send a      blank message to:> origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service>      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>      .To Post a message, send it to:        origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:      origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!      Groups is subject to the Yahoo!      Terms of Service. To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo    Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
946|938|2002-07-02 07:42:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: Welding Rods|Brian and Gary,  Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a 60,000  p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger than  the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness given  that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared,  chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the same  tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024 weld of  the same thickness and quality in the same metal?   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least two  different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was  looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in message 937  as closely as possible.  Following yours and others advice I have  ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar qualities to  6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of 7024 as  Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I took  their technical reps advice on which to choose and he recommended the  one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because that is the  one that the distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has 160% weld  metal recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes the 7024  Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that?   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism towards  Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them but we  used them on the welding course so its probably a case of better the  devil you know) shows five different types of 6013 rods, three of  which include in their field of application statements shipbuilding,  one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for shipbuilding  steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that might be).   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30  (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have also  used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013.  Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed as  pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian.  You can  usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good  penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you can mostly  get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a full  penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will tend to  blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod or for  that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the case of  the origami boats where many of the plates have to be manipulated  before the finish weld is done on the other side the first weld has  to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will tend to  blow holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on the other  side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep penetrating rod to  be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning out of  the vee.  I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the above a  reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his views in due  course.  My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and feed  back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting things  straight in ones mind.  Regards, Ted Stone   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > MessageBrian, > You have it right.  Just as a point of interest.  I did a repair on  drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I had to  use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. >  > Gary H. Lucas >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Brian Dixon  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds like  you've still got some reversals of logic going on.  Here: >  >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal, are for high strength applications because they penetrate the  base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or DC, the other DC-only I  believe...too lazy to look it up right now. >  >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are  *not* for high strength applications because it does *not* penetrate  the base metal very deeply. >  >   - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is  for high strength tough applications because of not only it's deeper  penetration but also because of it's ductility. >  >   - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is  *not* for high strength applications because it does *not* penetrate  the base metal very deeply. >  >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using 7024  Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for  strength) is done on the other side.  If it were up to me, I'd say to  follow his directions exactly, even if you have to special order the  rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013  unless you want it to break along those welds when you are out on the  high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with information  from text books and highly experienced welders. >  >   Brian >     -----Original Message----- >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM >     To: origamiboats@y... >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >     Brian and Gary, >     Thanks for your advice. >  >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods and  >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his  mail.   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.  Thyssen  is a  >     German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that  is why  >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers that I  use,  >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in  stock.   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't have >     any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly  from one  >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I guess  unless  >     you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look  after.    >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the first  two  >     numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a  tensile  >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding  >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and  the  >     last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is  >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable  for  >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating, which  gives  >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. >  >     On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the  fact  >     that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was  bent  >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate  was  >     bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the  other  >     side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason for  using a  >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of  steel. >  >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable  than  >     mine at a local technical college evening classes last winter.   When  >     I asked him about the properties of the different rods he  >     replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some >     another".   >     Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. >  >     Regards, >  >     Ted Stone >  >  >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: >     >   >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my  instructor >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll  ask him  >     some >     > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry  for  >     about 20 >     > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen  over  >     3000 of >     > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info  and  >     advice >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in  particular  >     when >     > I sign up for classes. >     >   >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding  supply  >     shop >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would  be the >     > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without  the  >     full >     > set... >     >   >     > Brian >     >  >     > -----Original Message----- >     > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM >     > To: origamiboats@y... >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >     >  >     >  >     > Brian, >     > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe  welders >     > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to  eliminate >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we  had lots  >     of >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018  should be >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture  it  >     welds >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position  but the >     > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is  popular  >     for >     > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry,  but it  >     sure >     > doesn't make very strong welds. >     >   >     > Gary H. Lucas >     >  >     > ----- Original Message -----  >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  >     > To: origamiboats@y...  >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >     >  >     > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them  since  >     I'm in >     > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the  middle of >     > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  thicknesses, all >     > positions" certification.  Your note below raises several  issues  >     that >     > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book  and  >     teacher >     > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can  >     add/subtract >     > from what I'll say: >     >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use,  but does  >     not >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and  applications >     > where high strength is not needed. >     >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes  that  >     work >     > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other  weld >     > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  their 'digging' >     > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd- position  >     welding >     > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these  electrodes >     > spatter more. >     >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode  that is  >     good >     > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.   This >     > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production  operation  >     but is >     > not for high strength applications. >     >   >     > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018  for  >     flat >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical  and >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the  high >     > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are  welding  >     pipes, >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can  get >     > porosity. >     >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.   >     Porosity >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where  you were >     > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or  age  >     etc.) >     > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks  longitudinally.   >     Lifting >     > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  shielding) can >     > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to  base  >     metal >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the  crack  >     may >     > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because  6013  >     doesn't >     > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A  combination of  >     the >     > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which  issue >     (s) >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just  >     passing on >     > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of  welding >     > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic  >     answer, but >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things  to  >     think >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require  a >     > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. >     >   >     > Brian >     >   >     >   >     >  >     > -----Original Message----- >     > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM >     > To: origamiboats@y... >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >     >  >     >  >     > Brent, >     >  >     > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.   What  >     > properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I  ask is  >     > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't  do 6011  >     > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst  >     > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the  chine  >     > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets  together,  >     > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing  welds  >     in  >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no  problem to  >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right  this  >     > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps  which  >     is  >     > obviously better than not meeting and understandable given  usual  >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a  decent fit  >     > other than offering it up and trimming off? >     >  >     > Regards, >     >  >     > Ted Stone >     >  >     >  >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >     >  >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  >     >  >     >  >     >  >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >     >  >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.  >     >  >     >  >     >  >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >     >  >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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947|938|2002-07-02 08:04:38|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding Rods|          Ted, Assuming you could get two perfect welds with two  different rods you probably would get two very similar strength welds.  In  the real world that rarely happens so choosing a rod with particular properties  will often give you a better weld.  Years ago I had a young guy weld some  angle iron shelf brackets to angle iron posts using 7024 welding  downwards.  The welds LOOKED very nice.  I told him they were no good  and he protested.  I struck the bracket hard with the palm of my hand, and  handed it to him!   Earlier we were talking about mig welding.  I  cautioned everyone that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for welding anything  but very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire because of greater  penetration.  Every time I have said this I get tons of flack about it,  especially from welders.  However, I have been having mild steel parts hot  dip galvanized for many years.  EVERY time someone uses 0.035" mig wire to  weld my parts I get weld failures from lack of penetration.  Not every weld  is bad, but when you weld thousands of parts that hang machinery over peoples  heads how many bad welds are acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to  near zero simply by insisting in writing on our prints that no parts would  be accepted if welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding with stick is no  different, use the rod that will give you the best chance of producing a good  weld.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    edward_stoneuk    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42  AM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods   Brian and Gary,Thanks for your info on the rods.     Are you saying that a 60,000 p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011    rod is stronger than the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same    thickness given that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully    prepared, chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the    same tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024    weld of the same thickness and quality in the same    metal?Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least    two different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was    looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in message 937    as closely as possible.  Following yours and others advice I have    ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar qualities to    6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of 7024 as    Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I took    their technical reps advice on which to choose and he recommended the    one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because that is the    one that the distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has 160% weld    metal recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes the    7024 Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that?The    Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism towards Thyssen    rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them but we used them on    the welding course so its probably a case of better the devil you know)    shows five different types of 6013 rods, three of which include in their    field of application statements shipbuilding, one of which, UNION 6013    states that it is suitable for shipbuilding steels corresponding to    Approval Grade 2, (whatever that might be).  I have been using their    Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30 (both 6013) on the recommendation    of their supplier.  I have also used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a    6013.Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed as    pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian.  You can    usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good penetration    to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you can mostly get to the    other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a full penetration weld.    In some cases a deep penetrating rod will tend to blow holes throught the    plate and so a mild penetration rod or for that matter a quick freeze rod    will make life easier.  In the case of the origami boats where many    of the plates have to be manipulated before the finish weld is done on the    other side the first weld has to strong enough to take that but a deep    penetrating rod will tend to blow holes in it.  The backing of this    first thick weld on the other side of the plate to the finish weld allows    a deep penetrating rod to be used, which copes better with a less than    perfect cleaning out of the vee.  I think that is what you are saying    Brian.  Is the above a reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent    will give his views in due course.My apologies if I ramble on a    bit but writing things down and feed back from folks such as yourselves    are very useful in getting things straight in ones    mind.Regards,Ted Stone--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:>    MessageBrian,> You have it right.  Just as a point of    interest.  I did a repair on drawbars in a truck crane. They were    made from T1 steel.  I had to use 11018 welding rods, 110,000    psi.> > Gary H. Lucas>   ----- Original Message    ----- >   From: Brian Dixon >   To: origamiboats@y... >   Sent:    Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM>   Subject: RE: [origamiboats]    Re: Welding Rods> > >   Unless I misunderstand    what you are saying below, it sounds like you've still got some reversals    of logic going on.  Here:> >   - 6010 and 6011,    regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are for high strength    applications because they penetrate the base metal deeper.  One can    be used AC or DC, the other DC-only I believe...too lazy to look it up    right now.> >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength    of the filler metal, are *not* for high strength applications because it    does *not* penetrate the base metal very deeply.>    >   - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler    metal, is for high strength tough applications because of not only it's    deeper penetration but also because of it's ductility.>    >   - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler    metal, is *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*    penetrate the base metal very deeply.> >   Without    hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using 7024 Jet Rod for    holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for strength) is done on    the other side.  If it were up to me, I'd say to follow his    directions exactly, even if you have to special order the rods.  I    would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013 unless you want it    to break along those welds when you are out on the high seas.  Just    my opinion, but I can back it up with information from text books and    highly experienced welders.> >      Brian>     -----Original    Message----->     From: edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >     Sent: Monday,    July 01, 2002 4:30 PM>     To: origamiboats@y...>        Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods> >    >     Brian and    Gary,>     Thanks for your advice.>    >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about    the welding rods and >     especially the 6011 and    the 7024 that Brent recommended in his mail.     >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version    of 6010.  Thyssen is a >     German    company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is why    >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of    the two suppliers that I use, >     one selling    Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock.     >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I    guess they don't have>     any pipeline welding    customers or customers that weld mostly from one    >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not    re-dried so I guess unless >     you need deep    penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look after.      >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system    is that the first two >     numbers refer to    the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile    >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number    shows the welding >     positions, e.g. **1* equals    any position, **2* equals flat and the >        last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is    >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000    psi rod suitable for >     flat welding.     It also has iron powder in the coating, which gives    >     weld metal recovery greater than    100%.> >     On reflection the weld cracking    on my project was caused by the fact >     that    the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was bent    >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it    cracked.  The plate was >     bent as the    side was pulled together and this is before the other    >     side of the join is welded.  This would    be a good reason for using a >     rod such as    the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of steel.>    >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit    more knowledgeable than >     mine at a local    technical college evening classes last winter.  When    >     I asked him about the properties of the    different rods he >     replied "Well some welders    like to use one sort and some>     another".     >     Probably true but not the answer I was    expecting.> >     Regards,>    >     Ted Stone> >    >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...>    wrote:>     >     >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I    had forgotten that my instructor>     >    mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask him    >     some>     >    more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for    >     about 20>     >    years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over    >     3000 of>     >    his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info and    >     advice>     >    on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in particular    >     when>     > I    sign up for classes.>     >     >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's,    Ed I think, welding supply >        shop>     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd    think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the>     >    staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without the    >     full>     >    set...>     >     >     > Brian>        > >     > -----Original    Message----->     > From: Gary H. Lucas    [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] >     > Sent: Sunday,    June 30, 2002 5:49 PM>     > To: origamiboats@y...>        > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods>        > >     > >        > Brian,>     > It all sounds about right to    me. A few minor additions. Pipe welders>        > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to    eliminate>     > pinholes.  We used to    do this in a plastics plant where we had lots    >     of>     >    welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should    be>     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If    the coating picks up moisture it >        welds>     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice    bead in the vertical position but the>     >    very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is popular    >     for>     > low    pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it    >     sure>     >    doesn't make very strong welds.>     >     >     > Gary H.    Lucas>     > >        > ----- Original Message ----- >     > From:    Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon    >     > To: origamiboats@y...    >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50    PM>     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding    Rods>     > >        > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since    >     I'm in>     >    general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle    of>     > welding classes and working towards    "all steel, all thicknesses, all>     >    positions" certification.  Your note below raises several issues    >     that>     >    we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and    >     teacher>     >    have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can    >     add/subtract>        > from what I'll say:>     >     >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great    stuff) is very easy to use, but does >        not>     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back    side tack welding and applications>     >    where high strength is not needed.>     >     >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep    penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that >        work>     > well for overhead and vertical welds    in addition to the other weld>     >    positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to their    'digging'>     > characteristic.  Requires    higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position    >     welding>     >    where high strength is required.  Downside is that these    electrodes>     > spatter    more.>     >     >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow    penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is    >     good>     > for    poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.     This>     > electrode is a general purpose    electrode for production operation >     but    is>     > not for high strength    applications.>     >     >     > For high strength applications, my    instructor recommends 7018 for >        flat>     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but    6010 or 6011 for vertical and>     >    overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the    high>     > strength.  If you have    gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding >        pipes,>     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires    clean metal, otherwise you can get>     >    porosity.>     >     >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could    be several problems.  >        Porosity>     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric    contamination (a breeze where you were>        > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age    >     etc.)>     >    Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.     >     Lifting>     >    the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding)    can>     > start a crater crack which    propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base >        metal>     > (doesn't apply here.)  With    high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack >        may>     > have started at the filler-to-base    metal interface because 6013 >        doesn't>     > have as deep a penetration as    6011 for example.  A combination of >        the>     > above...you'll have to examine your    welds to figure out which issue>        (s)>     > you might have.  Note: I hope    I'm not too far off here...just >     passing    on>     > class notes really, because I don't    have a helluva lot of welding>     >    experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic    >     answer, but>        > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to    >     think>     >    about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require    a>     > reasonably high level of expertise    to get it right.>     >     >     > Brian>        >  >     >     >     > >     >    -----Original Message----->     > From:    edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >        > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM>     >    To: origamiboats@y...>        > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods>     >    >     > >     >    Brent,>     > >        > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What    >     > properties are you particularly    interested in?  The reason I ask is >        > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011    >     > although they have five types of 6013    and two of 7024 amongst >     > others.  I    use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine    >     > starting from both ends.  As I    pulled the bottom sheets together, >     >    which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds    >     in >     > 6013    cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to    >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would    like to do it right this >     > time.     The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which    >     is >     >    obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual    >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have    any advice on getting a decent fit >     >    other than offering it up and trimming off?>        > >     >    Regards,>     > >        > Ted Stone>     >    >     > >     > To    Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...>        > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:>        > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    >     > >     >    Your use of Yahoo! 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948|938|2002-07-02 11:55:55|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|    Message      Ed,      You sound like you're right on track now.  And yes, your first paragraph  below is right.  The 6010/6011 rod will produce a stronger plate.  The  weld material, the fill metal in the joint, will have a tensile strength of  60,000 psi either way, but the penetration in the base metal determines the bond  strength to the plate itself.  Deep penetration rods put more heat into the  base metal too, so keep that in mind.  BTW, I double checked.  The  6010 is DC+ only (DC reverse, DCR, etc).   6011 is DC+ or AC, and  that's why most shops and welding suppliers carry 6011.      I don't think it matters who's 7024 you use.  Around here, "Jet Rod" is the  street name for the stuff, not a brand or product name.  It's called Jet  Rod because you can weld quickly and easily...just put the stick right against  the metal and slide it along.  The shield material (dry coating on the rod)  is designed to control your arc length automatically and it melts away at the  right rate, e.g. same as the deposition rate of the  metal.  7024  produces a very pretty fast and easy weld, but just doesn't give a lot of  strength due to it's shallower penetration.  Lots of things are OK with a  weaker joint though, including lots of things in boats.  Just like "one  nail doth not hold up a house", the strength of a structure is the sum of the  components.  In a monocoque (or nearly monocoque) structure like the  origami boats, the skin of the vessel is of utmost importance, hence all the  attention to making sure the welds on the skin are as good as they possibly can  be.  Great idea, these boats, but they do raise the requirements for sound  welds on the skin a bit more.  Large ships that are framed also use  high-grade welds on the skin, but sometimes use shallower and faster-to-complete  welds on internal framing if the engineer has designed the framing with that in  mind, e.g. striking a best balance between inches of weld, time to manufacture,  and amount of frames.  Since a lot of internal framing can be nearly  inaccessible, overdesigning and allowing 7024 as a weld material for a lot of  the joints makes sense due to it's ease of use, otherwise it's going to by  6010/6011 and 7018 (typically.)      I don't think the 7024 recovery rate is an issue for the finished product.   I'm not even absolutely sure of what that means, but since the number is higher  than 100%, it can't mean anything to do with 'recovering' or 'remaining amount'  of the metal coming from the rod.  I suspect that it is a measure of  penetration, maybe?  If so, then higher is better and I'd go for the  180%.  They probably stock that one preferably because it is most popular  with the customers.      Oh, BTW, the 601x rods do blow through if you're not careful.  They produce  a hot arc.  Unlike 7018, you can use a vertical whip motion when welding to  help.  7018 can develop porosity problems if you lengthen the arc with a  whip technique (apparently the shield isn't as good or the metal oxidizes more  easily or something).  The 601x rods are designed to produce a good weld  even if whipped.  I assume you know how to whip the rod while welding,  right?  Just in case though, whipping is a vertical S or C pattern to  alternately lengthen and shorten the arc length (all in the *wrist*)...allows a  very brief second for the filler metal to slightly harden in between deposits  you might say...produces those little crescent ridges in the weld but most  importantly, allows that slight cooling as you go and helps prevent blowing  through.  According to my notes, whipping is also called "oscillation",  "chill stroke", "whip technique", and "ripple stroke."  You can use  whipping with any rod ending in "10" or "11", e.g. 601x or 701x.  My  instructor said the 601x rods have the deepest penetration of all rods.  I  suspect that's why they are used for one-sided pipe welding.  Also, 601x  rods are messy...use the anti-spatter spray so you can knock off the spatter  more easily afterwards.   Brian        -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 02, 2002    4:43 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>    [origamiboats] Re: Welding RodsBrian and    Gary,Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a    60,000 p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger than    the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness given that    both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared, chamfered and    cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the same tensile    strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024 weld of the same    thickness and quality in the same metal?Because I could not get    the 6011 rods and could get at least two different types of 7024 rods I    wondered what qualities Brent was looking for so that I could follow his    recommendations in message 937 as closely as possible.  Following    yours and others advice I have ordered a tin of 6010 which I now    understand has similar qualities to 6011 and will pick them up today    together with a packet of 7024 as Brent recommended. Thyssen make two    sorts of 7024 rods and so I took their technical reps advice on which to    choose and he recommended the one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I    think because that is the one that the distributor keeps in stock.     The other rod has 160% weld metal recovery.  Which one would you    recommend?  Who makes the 7024 Jet Rod and do you know what the    recovery is on that?The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any    special favouritism towards Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even    heard of them but we used them on the welding course so its probably a    case of better the devil you know) shows five different types of 6013    rods, three of which include in their field of application statements    shipbuilding, one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for    shipbuilding steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that    might be).  I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix    Blau 30 (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have    also used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013.Their 6010 rod and for that    matter 8010 rods are all listed as pipeline rods which of course confirms    what you say Brian.  You can usually only weld from one side of a    pipe so you need good penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or    a tank you can mostly get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld    to get a full penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will    tend to blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod or for    that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the case of    the origami boats where many of the plates have to be manipulated    before the finish weld is done on the other side the first weld has to    strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will tend to blow    holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on the other side    of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep penetrating rod to be used,    which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning out of the vee.     I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the above a reasonable    assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his views in due    course.My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down    and feed back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting    things straight in ones mind.Regards,Ted Stone--- In    origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:>    MessageBrian,> You have it right.  Just as a point of    interest.  I did a repair on drawbars in a truck crane. They were    made from T1 steel.  I had to use 11018 welding rods, 110,000    psi.> > Gary H. Lucas>   ----- Original Message    ----- >   From: Brian Dixon >   To:    origamiboats@y... >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15    PM>   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods>    > >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying    below, it sounds like you've still got some reversals of logic going    on.  Here:> >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of    tensile strength of the filler metal, are for high strength applications    because they penetrate the base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or    DC, the other DC-only I believe...too lazy to look it up right    now.> >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of    the filler metal, are *not* for high strength applications because it does    *not* penetrate the base metal very deeply.> >   -    7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is for high    strength tough applications because of not only it's deeper penetration    but also because of it's ductility.> >   - 7024,    regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is *not* for high    strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very    deeply.> >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll    guarantee he is using 7024 Jet Rod for holding things in place until the    _real_ weld (for strength) is done on the other side.  If it were up    to me, I'd say to follow his directions exactly, even if you have to    special order the rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with    7024 and 6013 unless you want it to break along those welds when you are    out on the high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with    information from text books and highly experienced welders.>    >   Brian>     -----Original    Message----->     From: edward_stoneuk    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >     Sent: Monday,    July 01, 2002 4:30 PM>     To:    origamiboats@y...>     Subject: [origamiboats] Re:    Welding Rods> > >     Brian and    Gary,>     Thanks for your advice.>    >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about    the welding rods and >     especially the 6011 and    the 7024 that Brent recommended in his mail.     >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version    of 6010.  Thyssen is a >     German    company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is why    >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of    the two suppliers that I use, >     one selling    Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock.     >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I    guess they don't have>     any pipeline welding    customers or customers that weld mostly from one    >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not    re-dried so I guess unless >     you need deep    penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look after.      >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system    is that the first two >     numbers refer to    the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile    >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number    shows the welding >     positions, e.g. **1* equals    any position, **2* equals flat and the >        last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is    >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000    psi rod suitable for >     flat welding.     It also has iron powder in the coating, which gives    >     weld metal recovery greater than    100%.> >     On reflection the weld cracking    on my project was caused by the fact >     that    the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was bent    >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it    cracked.  The plate was >     bent as the    side was pulled together and this is before the other    >     side of the join is welded.  This would    be a good reason for using a >     rod such as    the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of steel.>    >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit    more knowledgeable than >     mine at a local    technical college evening classes last winter.  When    >     I asked him about the properties of the    different rods he >     replied "Well some welders    like to use one sort and some>     another".     >     Probably true but not the answer I was    expecting.> >     Regards,>    >     Ted Stone> >    >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon"    <briand@d...> wrote:>     >     >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I    had forgotten that my instructor>     >    mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask him    >     some>     >    more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for    >     about 20>     >    years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over    >     3000 of>     >    his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info and    >     advice>     >    on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in particular    >     when>     > I    sign up for classes.>     >     >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's,    Ed I think, welding supply >        shop>     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd    think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the>     >    staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without the    >     full>     >    set...>     >     >     > Brian>        > >     > -----Original    Message----->     > From: Gary H. Lucas    [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] >     > Sent: Sunday,    June 30, 2002 5:49 PM>     > To:    origamiboats@y...>     > Subject: Re:    [origamiboats] Welding Rods>     >    >     > >     >    Brian,>     > It all sounds about right to me. A    few minor additions. Pipe welders>     >    often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to    eliminate>     > pinholes.  We used to    do this in a plastics plant where we had lots    >     of>     >    welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should    be>     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If    the coating picks up moisture it >        welds>     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice    bead in the vertical position but the>     >    very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is popular    >     for>     > low    pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it    >     sure>     >    doesn't make very strong welds.>     >     >     > Gary H.    Lucas>     > >        > ----- Original Message ----- >     > From:    Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon >        > To: origamiboats@y... >     > Sent: Sunday,    June 30, 2002 12:50 PM>     > Subject: RE:    [origamiboats] Welding Rods>     >    >     > I'm not building an origami boat, but am    interested in them since >     I'm    in>     > general interested in building metal    boats.  I'm in the middle of>     >    welding classes and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses,    all>     > positions" certification.  Your    note below raises several issues >        that>     > we've been covering in class, so    I'll tell you what my book and >        teacher>     > have been saying.  Those    with more practical experience can >        add/subtract>     > from what I'll    say:>     >     >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great    stuff) is very easy to use, but does >        not>     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back    side tack welding and applications>     >    where high strength is not needed.>     >     >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep    penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that >        work>     > well for overhead and vertical welds    in addition to the other weld>     >    positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to their    'digging'>     > characteristic.  Requires    higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position    >     welding>     >    where high strength is required.  Downside is that these    electrodes>     > spatter    more.>     >     >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow    penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is    >     good>     > for    poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.     This>     > electrode is a general purpose    electrode for production operation >     but    is>     > not for high strength    applications.>     >     >     > For high strength applications, my    instructor recommends 7018 for >        flat>     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but    6010 or 6011 for vertical and>     >    overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the    high>     > strength.  If you have    gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding >        pipes,>     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires    clean metal, otherwise you can get>     >    porosity.>     >     >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could    be several problems.  >        Porosity>     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric    contamination (a breeze where you were>        > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age    >     etc.)>     >    Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.     >     Lifting>     >    the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding)    can>     > start a crater crack which    propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base >        metal>     > (doesn't apply here.)  With    high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack >        may>     > have started at the filler-to-base    metal interface because 6013 >        doesn't>     > have as deep a penetration as    6011 for example.  A combination of >        the>     > above...you'll have to examine your    welds to figure out which issue>        (s)>     > you might have.  Note: I hope    I'm not too far off here...just >     passing    on>     > class notes really, because I don't    have a helluva lot of welding>     >    experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic    >     answer, but>        > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to    >     think>     >    about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require    a>     > reasonably high level of expertise    to get it right.>     >     >     > Brian>        >  >     >     >     > >     >    -----Original Message----->     > From:    edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >        > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM>     >    To: origamiboats@y...>     > Subject:    [origamiboats] Welding Rods>     >    >     > >     >    Brent,>     > >        > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What    >     > properties are you particularly    interested in?  The reason I ask is >        > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011    >     > although they have five types of 6013    and two of 7024 amongst >     > others.  I    use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine    >     > starting from both ends.  As I    pulled the bottom sheets together, >     >    which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds    >     in >     > 6013    cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to    >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would    like to do it right this >     > time.     The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which    >     is >     >    obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual    >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have    any advice on getting a decent fit >     >    other than offering it up and trimming off?>        > >     >    Regards,>     > >        > Ted Stone>     >    >     > >     > To    Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@y...>     > To Unsubscribe, send a    blank message to:>     >    origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... >     >    >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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Groups Sponsor    >                  ADVERTISEMENT>                 >        >    >   To Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@y...>   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >   Your use of    Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of    Service.To Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@yahoogroups.comTo Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:    origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo!    Groups is subject to the Yahoo!    Terms of Service.   |
949|938|2002-07-02 13:26:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding Rods| Message         Brian,  Jet Rod is Lincoln Electrics trade  mark for 7024.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    Brian    Dixon    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:55    AM   <b>Subject:</b> RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods      Ed,         You sound like you're right on track now.  And yes, your    first paragraph below is right.  The 6010/6011 rod will produce a    stronger plate.  The weld material, the fill metal in the joint, will    have a tensile strength of 60,000 psi either way, but the penetration in the    base metal determines the bond strength to the plate itself.  Deep    penetration rods put more heat into the base metal too, so keep that in    mind.  BTW, I double checked.  The 6010 is DC+ only (DC reverse,    DCR, etc).   6011 is DC+ or AC, and that's why most shops and    welding suppliers carry 6011.         I don't think it matters who's 7024 you use.  Around here,    "Jet Rod" is the street name for the stuff, not a brand or product name.     It's called Jet Rod because you can weld quickly and easily...just put the    stick right against the metal and slide it along.  The shield material    (dry coating on the rod) is designed to control your arc length automatically    and it melts away at the right rate, e.g. same as the deposition rate of    the  metal.  7024 produces a very pretty fast and easy weld, but    just doesn't give a lot of strength due to it's shallower penetration.     Lots of things are OK with a weaker joint though, including lots of things in    boats.  Just like "one nail doth not hold up a house", the strength of a    structure is the sum of the components.  In a monocoque (or nearly    monocoque) structure like the origami boats, the skin of the vessel is of    utmost importance, hence all the attention to making sure the welds on the    skin are as good as they possibly can be.  Great idea, these boats, but    they do raise the requirements for sound welds on the skin a bit more.     Large ships that are framed also use high-grade welds on the skin, but    sometimes use shallower and faster-to-complete welds on internal framing if    the engineer has designed the framing with that in mind, e.g. striking a best    balance between inches of weld, time to manufacture, and amount of    frames.  Since a lot of internal framing can be nearly inaccessible,    overdesigning and allowing 7024 as a weld material for a lot of the joints    makes sense due to it's ease of use, otherwise it's going to by 6010/6011 and    7018 (typically.)         I don't think the 7024 recovery rate is an issue for the    finished product.  I'm not even absolutely sure of what that means, but    since the number is higher than 100%, it can't mean anything to do with    'recovering' or 'remaining amount' of the metal coming from the rod.  I    suspect that it is a measure of penetration, maybe?  If so, then higher    is better and I'd go for the 180%.  They probably stock that one    preferably because it is most popular with the customers.         Oh, BTW, the 601x rods do blow through if you're not    careful.  They produce a hot arc.  Unlike 7018, you can use a    vertical whip motion when welding to help.  7018 can develop porosity    problems if you lengthen the arc with a whip technique (apparently the shield    isn't as good or the metal oxidizes more easily or something).  The 601x    rods are designed to produce a good weld even if whipped.  I assume you    know how to whip the rod while welding, right?  Just in case though,    whipping is a vertical S or C pattern to alternately lengthen and shorten    the arc length (all in the *wrist*)...allows a very brief second for the    filler metal to slightly harden in between deposits you might say...produces    those little crescent ridges in the weld but most importantly, allows that    slight cooling as you go and helps prevent blowing through.  According to    my notes, whipping is also called "oscillation", "chill stroke", "whip    technique", and "ripple stroke."  You can use whipping with any rod    ending in "10" or "11", e.g. 601x or 701x.  My instructor said the 601x    rods have the deepest penetration of all rods.  I suspect that's why they    are used for one-sided pipe welding.  Also, 601x rods are messy...use the    anti-spatter spray so you can knock off the spatter more easily    afterwards.       Brian             -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> edward_stoneuk      [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...] <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 02, 2002      4:43 AM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b>      [origamiboats] Re: Welding RodsBrian and      Gary,Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a      60,000 p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger      than the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness given      that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared,      chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the same      tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024 weld      of the same thickness and quality in the same metal?Because      I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least two different types      of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was looking for so that I      could follow his recommendations in message 937 as closely as      possible.  Following yours and others advice I have ordered a tin      of 6010 which I now understand has similar qualities to 6011 and will      pick them up today together with a packet of 7024 as Brent recommended.      Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I took their technical reps      advice on which to choose and he recommended the one with 180% weld      metal recovery, mainly I think because that is the one that the      distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has 160% weld metal      recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes the 7024      Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that?The      Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism towards Thyssen      rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them but we used them on      the welding course so its probably a case of better the devil you know)      shows five different types of 6013 rods, three of which include in their      field of application statements shipbuilding, one of which, UNION 6013      states that it is suitable for shipbuilding steels corresponding to      Approval Grade 2, (whatever that might be).  I have been using      their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30 (both 6013) on the      recommendation of their supplier.  I have also used Oerlikon's      Fincord M, a 6013.Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are      all listed as pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say      Brian.  You can usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you      need good penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank      you can mostly get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to      get a full penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will      tend to blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod or      for that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the      case of the origami boats where many of the plates have to be      manipulated before the finish weld is done on the other side the first      weld has to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will      tend to blow holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on      the other side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep penetrating      rod to be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning out      of the vee.  I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is      the above a reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his      views in due course.My apologies if I ramble on a bit but      writing things down and feed back from folks such as yourselves are very      useful in getting things straight in ones mind.Regards,Ted      Stone--- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas"      <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:> MessageBrian,> You have it      right.  Just as a point of interest.  I did a repair on      drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I had to      use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi.> > Gary H.      Lucas>   ----- Original Message ----- >        From: Brian Dixon >   To: origamiboats@y...      >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM>        Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods> >      >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it      sounds like you've still got some reversals of logic going on.       Here:> >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile      strength of the filler metal, are for high strength applications because      they penetrate the base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or DC,      the other DC-only I believe...too lazy to look it up right now.>      >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler      metal, are *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*      penetrate the base metal very deeply.> >   -      7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is for high      strength tough applications because of not only it's deeper penetration      but also because of it's ductility.> >   - 7024,      regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is *not* for high      strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal      very deeply.> >   Without hearing more from Brent,      I'll guarantee he is using 7024 Jet Rod for holding things in place      until the _real_ weld (for strength) is done on the other side.  If      it were up to me, I'd say to follow his directions exactly, even if you      have to special order the rods.  I would not go off and weld up a      boat with 7024 and 6013 unless you want it to break along those welds      when you are out on the high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back      it up with information from text books and highly experienced      welders.> >   Brian>          -----Original Message----->     From:      edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >          Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM>     To:      origamiboats@y...>     Subject: [origamiboats]      Re: Welding Rods> > >     Brian and      Gary,>     Thanks for your advice.>      >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about      the welding rods and >     especially the 6011      and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his mail.       >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version      of 6010.  Thyssen is a >     German      company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is why      >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of      the two suppliers that I use, >     one      selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock.       >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I      guess they don't have>     any pipeline welding      customers or customers that weld mostly from one      >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and      not re-dried so I guess unless >     you need      deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look after.        >     My understanding of the AWS numbering      system is that the first two >     numbers      refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile      >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number      shows the welding >     positions, e.g. **1*      equals any position, **2* equals flat and the      >     last number I cannot remember what it      means.  The 7024 rod is >     therefore, if      I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable for      >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder      in the coating, which gives >     weld metal      recovery greater than 100%.> >     On      reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the fact      >     that the weld metal was thinner than the      plate and when it was bent >     the stress      was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate was      >     bent as the side was pulled together and      this is before the other >     side of the      join is welded.  This would be a good reason for using a      >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and      lays down plenty of steel.> >          Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable than      >     mine at a local technical college evening      classes last winter.  When >     I asked      him about the properties of the different rods he      >     replied "Well some welders like to use one      sort and some>     another".       >     Probably true but not the answer I was      expecting.> >     Regards,>      >     Ted Stone> >      >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon"      <briand@d...> wrote:>     >       >     > Thanks for the additional info.       I had forgotten that my instructor>     >      mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask him      >     some>     >      more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for      >     about 20>          > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over      >     3000 of>          > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info      and >          advice>     > on how NOT to do it and how TO      do it.  I look for him in particular      >     when>     > I      sign up for classes.>     >       >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's,      Ed I think, welding supply >          shop>     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd      think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the>          > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without the      >     full>     >      set...>     >       >     > Brian>          > >     > -----Original      Message----->     > From: Gary H. Lucas      [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] >     > Sent: Sunday,      June 30, 2002 5:49 PM>     > To:      origamiboats@y...>     > Subject: Re:      [origamiboats] Welding Rods>     >      >     > >     >      Brian,>     > It all sounds about right to me.      A few minor additions. Pipe welders>     >      often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to      eliminate>     > pinholes.  We used      to do this in a plastics plant where we had lots      >     of>     >      welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should      be>     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If      the coating picks up moisture it >          welds>     > poorly.  7018 will make a      nice bead in the vertical position but      the>     > very fluid slag covering takes      skill to control.  6013 is popular >          for>     > low pressure water pipe welding in      the greenhouse industry, but it >          sure>     > doesn't make very strong      welds.>     >       >     > Gary H.      Lucas>     > >          > ----- Original Message ----- >     >      From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon      >     > To: origamiboats@y...      >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50      PM>     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding      Rods>     > >          > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since      >     I'm in>     >      general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle      of>     > welding classes and working towards      "all steel, all thicknesses, all>     >      positions" certification.  Your note below raises several issues      >     that>     >      we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and      >     teacher>          > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can      >          add/subtract>     > from what I'll      say:>     >       >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod"      (great stuff) is very easy to use, but does      >     not>     >      penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and      applications>     > where high strength is      not needed.>     >       >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are      _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that      >     work>     >      well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other      weld>     > positions.  Works well      for unbeveled joints due to their      'digging'>     > characteristic.       Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position      >     welding>          > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these      electrodes>     > spatter      more.>     >       >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow      penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is      >     good>     >      for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.       This>     > electrode is a general purpose      electrode for production operation >     but      is>     > not for high strength      applications.>     >       >     > For high strength applications, my      instructor recommends 7018 for >          flat>     > and horizontal (I think) welds,      but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and>     >      overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the      high>     > strength.  If you have      gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding >          pipes,>     > use 6010/6011.  7018      requires clean metal, otherwise you can      get>     >      porosity.>     >       >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm,      could be several problems.  >          Porosity>     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric      contamination (a breeze where you were>          > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age      >     etc.)>     >      Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.       >     Lifting>          > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding)      can>     > start a crater crack which      propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base      >     metal>     >      (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack      >     may>     >      have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013      >     doesn't>          > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination      of >     the>     >      above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which      issue>          (s)>     > you might have.  Note: I hope      I'm not too far off here...just >     passing      on>     > class notes really, because I don't      have a helluva lot of welding>     >      experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic      >     answer, but>          > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to      >     think>     >      about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require      a>     > reasonably high level of      expertise to get it right.>     >       >     > Brian>          >  >     >       >     > >     >      -----Original Message----->     > From:      edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >          > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM>          > To: origamiboats@y...>     > Subject:      [origamiboats] Welding Rods>     >      >     > >     >      Brent,>     > >          > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.       What >     > properties are you      particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is      >     > because my usual supplier sells      Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011 >          > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst      >     > others.  I use a high frequency      DC welder.  I welded the chine >          > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets      together, >     > which causes the chine      angle to change, some of the existing welds      >     in >     >      6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to      >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would      like to do it right this >     >      time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which      >     is >     >      obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual      >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have      any advice on getting a decent fit >     >      other than offering it up and trimming off?>          > >     >      Regards,>     >      >     > Ted      Stone>     > >          > >     > To Post a message, send it      to:   origamiboats@y...>     > To      Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:>     >      origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... >     >      >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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950|938|2002-07-02 14:30:06|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|Ok..didn't know that.   >  > Message Brian,  Jet Rod is Lincoln Electrics trade mark for 7024. >  > Gary H. Lucas >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: Brian Dixon  >   To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com  >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:55 AM >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >   Ed, >  >     You sound like you're right on track now.  And yes, your first   paragraph below is right.  The 6010/6011 rod will produce a stronger  plate.  The weld material, the fill metal in the joint, will have a  tensile strength of 60,000 psi either way, but the penetration in the  base metal determines the bond strength to the plate itself.  Deep  penetration rods put more heat into the base metal too, so keep that  in mind.  BTW, I double checked.  The 6010 is DC+ only (DC reverse,  DCR, etc).   6011 is DC+ or AC, and that's why most shops and welding  suppliers carry 6011.  >  >     I don't think it matters who's 7024 you use.  Around here, "Jet   Rod" is the street name for the stuff, not a brand or product name.   It's called Jet Rod because you can weld quickly and easily...just put  the stick right against the metal and slide it along.  The shield  material (dry coating on the rod) is designed to control your arc  length automatically and it melts away at the right rate, e.g. same as  the deposition rate of the  metal.  7024 produces a very pretty fast  and easy weld, but just doesn't give a lot of strength due to it's  shallower penetration.  Lots of things are OK with a weaker joint  though, including lots of things in boats.  Just like "one nail doth  not hold up a house", the strength of a structure is the sum of the  components.  In a monocoque (or nearly monocoque) structure like the  origami boats, the skin of the vessel is of utmost importance, hence  all the attention to making sure the welds on the skin are as good as  they possibly can be.  Great idea, these boats, but they do raise the  requirements for sound welds on the skin a bit more.  Large ships that  are framed also use high-grade welds on the skin, but sometimes use  shallower and faster-to-complete welds on internal framing if the  engineer has designed the framing with that in mind, e.g. striking a  best balance between inches of weld, time to manufacture, and amount  of frames.  Since a lot of internal framing can be nearly  inaccessible, overdesigning and allowing 7024 as a weld material for a  lot of the joints makes sense due to it's ease of use, otherwise it's  going to by 6010/6011 and 7018 (typically.)  >  >     I don't think the 7024 recovery rate is an issue for the   finished product.  I'm not even absolutely sure of what that means,  but since the number is higher than 100%, it can't mean anything to do  with 'recovering' or 'remaining amount' of the metal coming from the  rod.  I suspect that it is a measure of penetration, maybe?  If so,  then higher is better and I'd go for the 180%.  They probably stock  that one preferably because it is most popular with the customers.  >  >     Oh, BTW, the 601x rods do blow through if you're not careful.    They produce a hot arc.  Unlike 7018, you can use a vertical whip  motion when welding to help.  7018 can develop porosity problems if  you lengthen the arc with a whip technique (apparently the shield  isn't as good or the metal oxidizes more easily or something).  The  601x rods are designed to produce a good weld even if whipped.  I  assume you know how to whip the rod while welding, right?  Just in  case though, whipping is a vertical S or C pattern to alternately  lengthen and shorten the arc length (all in the *wrist*)...allows a  very brief second for the filler metal to slightly harden in between  deposits you might say...produces those little crescent ridges in the  weld but most importantly, allows that slight cooling as you go and  helps prevent blowing through.  According to my notes, whipping is  also called "oscillation", "chill stroke", "whip technique",  and "ripple stroke."  You can use whipping with any rod ending in "10"  or "11", e.g. 601x or 701x.  My instructor said the 601x rods have the  deepest penetration of all rods.  I suspect that's why they are used  for one-sided pipe welding.  Also, 601x rods are messy...use the anti- spatter spray so you can knock off the spatter more easily afterwards.  >  >   Brian >     -----Original Message----- >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@...]  >     Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:43 AM >     To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >     Brian and Gary, >  >     Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a 60,000  >     p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger   than   >     the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness   given   >     that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared,  >     chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the   same   >     tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024   weld of   >     the same thickness and quality in the same metal? >  >  >     Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least two  >     different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was  >     looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in   message 937   >     as closely as possible.  Following yours and others advice I   have   >     ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar   qualities to   >     6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of 7024   as   >     Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I   took   >     their technical reps advice on which to choose and he   recommended the   >     one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because that   is the   >     one that the distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has 160%   weld   >     metal recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes the   7024   >     Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that? >  >  >     The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism   towards   >     Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them but   we   >     used them on the welding course so its probably a case of better   the   >     devil you know) shows five different types of 6013 rods, three   of   >     which include in their field of application statements   shipbuilding,   >     one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for   shipbuilding   >     steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that might   be).    >     I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30  >     (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have   also   >     used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. >  >     Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed as  >     pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian.  You   can   >     usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good  >     penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you can   mostly   >     get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a   full   >     penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will tend   to   >     blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod or   for   >     that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the   case of   >     the origami boats where many of the plates have to be   manipulated   >     before the finish weld is done on the other side the first weld   has   >     to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will   tend to   >     blow holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on the   other   >     side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep penetrating   rod to   >     be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning   out of   >     the vee.  I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the   above a   >     reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his views in   due   >     course. >  >     My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and   feed   >     back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting   things   >     straight in ones mind. >  >     Regards, >     Ted Stone >  >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>   wrote:  >     > MessageBrian, >     > You have it right.  Just as a point of interest.  I did a   repair on   >     drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I had   to   >     use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. >     >  >     > Gary H. Lucas >     >   ----- Original Message -----  >     >   From: Brian Dixon  >     >   To: origamiboats@y...  >     >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM >     >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >     >  >     >  >     >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds   like   >     you've still got some reversals of logic going on.  Here: >     >  >     >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the   filler   >     metal, are for high strength applications because they penetrate   the   >     base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or DC, the other DC-only   I   >     believe...too lazy to look it up right now. >     >  >     >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,   are   >     *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*   penetrate   >     the base metal very deeply. >     >  >     >   - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,   is   >     for high strength tough applications because of not only it's   deeper   >     penetration but also because of it's ductility. >     >  >     >   - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,   is   >     *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*   penetrate   >     the base metal very deeply. >     >  >     >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using   7024   >     Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for  >     strength) is done on the other side.  If it were up to me, I'd   say to   >     follow his directions exactly, even if you have to special order   the   >     rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013  >     unless you want it to break along those welds when you are out   on the   >     high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with   information   >     from text books and highly experienced welders. >     >  >     >   Brian >     >     -----Original Message----- >     >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >     >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM >     >     To: origamiboats@y... >     >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >     >  >     >  >     >     Brian and Gary, >     >     Thanks for your advice. >     >  >     >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding   rods and   >     >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in   his   >     mail.   >     >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.    Thyssen   >     is a  >     >     German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so   that   >     is why  >     >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers   that I   >     use,  >     >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods   in   >     stock.   >     >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't   have  >     >     any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld   mostly   >     from one  >     >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I   guess   >     unless  >     >     you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to   look   >     after.    >     >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the   first   >     two  >     >     numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has   a   >     tensile  >     >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the   welding   >     >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat   and   >     the  >     >     last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod   is   >     >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod   suitable   >     for  >     >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating,   which   >     gives  >     >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. >     >  >     >     On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused   by the   >     fact  >     >     that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it   was   >     bent  >     >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The   plate   >     was  >     >     bent as the side was pulled together and this is before   the   >     other  >     >     side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason   for   >     using a  >     >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty   of   >     steel. >     >  >     >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more   knowledgeable   >     than  >     >     mine at a local technical college evening classes last   winter.    >     When  >     >     I asked him about the properties of the different rods he  >     >     replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some >     >     another".   >     >     Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. >     >  >     >     Regards, >     >  >     >     Ted Stone >     >  >     >  >     >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...>   wrote:  >     >     >   >     >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my  >     instructor >     >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.    I'll   >     ask him  >     >     some >     >     > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in   industry   >     for  >     >     about 20 >     >     > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has   seen   >     over  >     >     3000 of >     >     > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of   info   >     and  >     >     advice >     >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in  >     particular  >     >     when >     >     > I sign up for classes. >     >     >   >     >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think,   welding   >     supply  >     >     shop >     >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018   would   >     be the >     >     > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be   without   >     the  >     >     full >     >     > set... >     >     >   >     >     > Brian >     >     >  >     >     > -----Original Message----- >     >     > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  >     >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM >     >     > To: origamiboats@y... >     >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >     >     >  >     >     >  >     >     > Brian, >     >     > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions.   Pipe   >     welders >     >     > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to  >     eliminate >     >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where   we   >     had lots  >     >     of >     >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit.   7018   >     should be >     >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up   moisture   >     it  >     >     welds >     >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical   position   >     but the >     >     > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013   is   >     popular  >     >     for >     >     > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse   industry,   >     but it  >     >     sure >     >     > doesn't make very strong welds. >     >     >   >     >     > Gary H. Lucas >     >     >  >     >     > ----- Original Message -----  >     >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  >     >     > To: origamiboats@y...  >     >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM >     >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >     >     >  >     >     > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in   them   >     since  >     >     I'm in >     >     > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the  >     middle of >     >     > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  >     thicknesses, all >     >     > positions" certification.  Your note below raises   several   >     issues  >     >     that >     >     > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my   book   >     and  >     >     teacher >     >     > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience   can   >     >     add/subtract >     >     > from what I'll say: >     >     >   >     >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to   use,   >     but does  >     >     not >     >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and  >     applications >     >     > where high strength is not needed. >     >     >   >     >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze   electrodes   >     that  >     >     work >     >     > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the   other   >     weld >     >     > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  >     their 'digging' >     >     > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd- >     position  >     >     welding >     >     > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these  >     electrodes >     >     > spatter more. >     >     >   >     >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze   electrode   >     that is  >     >     good >     >     > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint   welding.    >     This >     >     > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production  >     operation  >     >     but is >     >     > not for high strength applications. >     >     >   >     >     > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends   7018   >     for  >     >     flat >     >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for   vertical   >     and >     >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't   need the   >     high >     >     > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are  >     welding  >     >     pipes, >     >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you   can   >     get >     >     > porosity. >     >     >   >     >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several   problems.    >     >     Porosity >     >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze   where   >     you were >     >     > welding, welding technique, contamination due to   humidity or   >     age  >     >     etc.) >     >     > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks  >     longitudinally.   >     >     Lifting >     >     > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  >     shielding) can >     >     > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod   to   >     base  >     >     metal >     >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld,   the   >     crack  >     >     may >     >     > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface   because   >     6013  >     >     doesn't >     >     > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A  >     combination of  >     >     the >     >     > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out   which   >     issue >     >     (s) >     >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off   here...just   >     >     passing on >     >     > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot   of   >     welding >     >     > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more   pragmatic   >     >     answer, but >     >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some   things   >     to  >     >     think >     >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does   require   >     a >     >     > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. >     >     >   >     >     > Brian >     >     >   >     >     >   >     >     >  >     >     > -----Original Message----- >     >     > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >     >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM >     >     > To: origamiboats@y... >     >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >     >     >  >     >     >  >     >     > Brent, >     >     >  >     >     > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024   rods.    >     What  >     >     > properties are you particularly interested in?  The   reason I   >     ask is  >     >     > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they   don't   >     do 6011  >     >     > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024   amongst   >     >     > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the  >     chine  >     >     > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets  >     together,  >     >     > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the   existing   >     welds  >     >     in  >     >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no  >     problem to  >     >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it   right   >     this  >     >     > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join   overlaps   >     which  >     >     is  >     >     > obviously better than not meeting and understandable   given   >     usual  >     >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a  >     decent fit  >     >     > other than offering it up and trimming off? >     >     >  >     >     > Regards, >     >     >  >     >     > Ted Stone >     >     >  >     >     >  >     >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >     >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >     >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >     >     >  >     >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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951|938|2002-07-03 18:27:19|edward_stoneuk|Re: Welding Rods|Brian and Gary,  Thanks for your info.   With regard to the weld metal recovery of the Thyssen 7024 rods which  is given as 160% or 180%;  the Thyssen technical rep tells me that  the rods have iron powder in the flux coating which in use combines  with the rod itself to add an extra 60% or 80% of weld metal.  Regards,  Ted Stone     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: >  > Ok..didn't know that. >  > >  > > Message Brian,  Jet Rod is Lincoln Electrics trade mark for 7024. > >  > > Gary H. Lucas > >   ----- Original Message -----  > >   From: Brian Dixon  > >   To: origamiboats@y...  > >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:55 AM > >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >  > >  > >   Ed, > >  > >     You sound like you're right on track now.  And yes, your  first  > paragraph below is right.  The 6010/6011 rod will produce a  stronger  > plate.  The weld material, the fill metal in the joint, will have a  > tensile strength of 60,000 psi either way, but the penetration in  the  > base metal determines the bond strength to the plate itself.  Deep  > penetration rods put more heat into the base metal too, so keep  that  > in mind.  BTW, I double checked.  The 6010 is DC+ only (DC reverse,  > DCR, etc).   6011 is DC+ or AC, and that's why most shops and  welding  > suppliers carry 6011. > >  > >     I don't think it matters who's 7024 you use.  Around  here, "Jet  > Rod" is the street name for the stuff, not a brand or product  name.   > It's called Jet Rod because you can weld quickly and easily...just  put  > the stick right against the metal and slide it along.  The shield  > material (dry coating on the rod) is designed to control your arc  > length automatically and it melts away at the right rate, e.g. same  as  > the deposition rate of the  metal.  7024 produces a very pretty  fast  > and easy weld, but just doesn't give a lot of strength due to it's  > shallower penetration.  Lots of things are OK with a weaker joint  > though, including lots of things in boats.  Just like "one nail  doth  > not hold up a house", the strength of a structure is the sum of the  > components.  In a monocoque (or nearly monocoque) structure like  the  > origami boats, the skin of the vessel is of utmost importance,  hence  > all the attention to making sure the welds on the skin are as good  as  > they possibly can be.  Great idea, these boats, but they do raise  the  > requirements for sound welds on the skin a bit more.  Large ships  that  > are framed also use high-grade welds on the skin, but sometimes use  > shallower and faster-to-complete welds on internal framing if the  > engineer has designed the framing with that in mind, e.g. striking  a  > best balance between inches of weld, time to manufacture, and  amount  > of frames.  Since a lot of internal framing can be nearly  > inaccessible, overdesigning and allowing 7024 as a weld material  for a  > lot of the joints makes sense due to it's ease of use, otherwise  it's  > going to by 6010/6011 and 7018 (typically.) > >  > >     I don't think the 7024 recovery rate is an issue for the  > finished product.  I'm not even absolutely sure of what that means,  > but since the number is higher than 100%, it can't mean anything to  do  > with 'recovering' or 'remaining amount' of the metal coming from  the  > rod.  I suspect that it is a measure of penetration, maybe?  If so,  > then higher is better and I'd go for the 180%.  They probably stock  > that one preferably because it is most popular with the customers. > >  > >     Oh, BTW, the 601x rods do blow through if you're not  careful.   > They produce a hot arc.  Unlike 7018, you can use a vertical whip  > motion when welding to help.  7018 can develop porosity problems if  > you lengthen the arc with a whip technique (apparently the shield  > isn't as good or the metal oxidizes more easily or something).  The  > 601x rods are designed to produce a good weld even if whipped.  I  > assume you know how to whip the rod while welding, right?  Just in  > case though, whipping is a vertical S or C pattern to alternately  > lengthen and shorten the arc length (all in the *wrist*)...allows a  > very brief second for the filler metal to slightly harden in  between  > deposits you might say...produces those little crescent ridges in  the  > weld but most importantly, allows that slight cooling as you go and  > helps prevent blowing through.  According to my notes, whipping is  > also called "oscillation", "chill stroke", "whip technique",  > and "ripple stroke."  You can use whipping with any rod ending  in "10"  > or "11", e.g. 601x or 701x.  My instructor said the 601x rods have  the  > deepest penetration of all rods.  I suspect that's why they are  used  > for one-sided pipe welding.  Also, 601x rods are messy...use the  anti- > spatter spray so you can knock off the spatter more easily  afterwards. > >  > >   Brian > >     -----Original Message----- > >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  > >     Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:43 AM > >     To: origamiboats@y... > >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >  > >  > >     Brian and Gary, > >  > >     Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a  60,000  > >     p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger  > than  > >     the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness  > given  > >     that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared,  > >     chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have  the  > same  > >     tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024  > weld of  > >     the same thickness and quality in the same metal? > >  > >  > >     Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least  two  > >     different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent  was  > >     looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in  > message 937  > >     as closely as possible.  Following yours and others advice I  > have  > >     ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar  > qualities to  > >     6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of  7024  > as  > >     Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so  I  > took  > >     their technical reps advice on which to choose and he  > recommended the  > >     one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because  that  > is the  > >     one that the distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has  160%  > weld  > >     metal recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes  the  > 7024  > >     Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that? > >  > >  > >     The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism  > towards  > >     Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them  but  > we  > >     used them on the welding course so its probably a case of  better  > the  > >     devil you know) shows five different types of 6013 rods,  three  > of  > >     which include in their field of application statements  > shipbuilding,  > >     one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for  > shipbuilding  > >     steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that  might  > be).   > >     I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau  30  > >     (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have  > also  > >     used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. > >  > >     Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed  as  > >     pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian.   You  > can  > >     usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good  > >     penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you  can  > mostly  > >     get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a  > full  > >     penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will  tend  > to  > >     blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod  or  > for  > >     that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the  > case of  > >     the origami boats where many of the plates have to be  > manipulated  > >     before the finish weld is done on the other side the first  weld  > has  > >     to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will  > tend to  > >     blow holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on  the  > other  > >     side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep  penetrating  > rod to  > >     be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning  > out of  > >     the vee.  I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the  > above a  > >     reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his views in  > due  > >     course. > >  > >     My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and  > feed  > >     back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting  > things  > >     straight in ones mind. > >  > >     Regards, > >     Ted Stone > >  > >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>  > wrote: > >     > MessageBrian, > >     > You have it right.  Just as a point of interest.  I did a  > repair on  > >     drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I  had  > to  > >     use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. > >     >  > >     > Gary H. Lucas > >     >   ----- Original Message -----  > >     >   From: Brian Dixon  > >     >   To: origamiboats@y...  > >     >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM > >     >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >     >  > >     >  > >     >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it  sounds  > like  > >     you've still got some reversals of logic going on.  Here: > >     >  > >     >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the  > filler  > >     metal, are for high strength applications because they  penetrate  > the  > >     base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or DC, the other DC- only  > I  > >     believe...too lazy to look it up right now. > >     >  > >     >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal,  > are  > >     *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*  > penetrate  > >     the base metal very deeply. > >     >  > >     >   - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal,  > is  > >     for high strength tough applications because of not only it's  > deeper  > >     penetration but also because of it's ductility. > >     >  > >     >   - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal,  > is  > >     *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*  > penetrate  > >     the base metal very deeply. > >     >  > >     >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is  using  > 7024  > >     Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld  (for  > >     strength) is done on the other side.  If it were up to me,  I'd  > say to  > >     follow his directions exactly, even if you have to special  order  > the  > >     rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and  6013  > >     unless you want it to break along those welds when you are  out  > on the  > >     high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with  > information  > >     from text books and highly experienced welders. > >     >  > >     >   Brian > >     >     -----Original Message----- > >     >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  > >     >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM > >     >     To: origamiboats@y... > >     >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >     >  > >     >  > >     >     Brian and Gary, > >     >     Thanks for your advice. > >     >  > >     >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding  > rods and  > >     >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended  in  > his  > >     mail.   > >     >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.   > Thyssen  > >     is a  > >     >     German company where they tend to use only DC welders;  so  > that  > >     is why  > >     >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two  suppliers  > that I  > >     use,  > >     >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010  rods  > in  > >     stock.   > >     >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they  don't  > have > >     >     any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld  > mostly  > >     from one  > >     >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I  > guess  > >     unless  > >     >     you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to  > look  > >     after.    > >     >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that  the  > first  > >     two  > >     >     numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod  has  > a  > >     tensile  > >     >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the  > welding  > >     >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals  flat  > and  > >     the  > >     >     last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024  rod  > is  > >     >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod  > suitable  > >     for  > >     >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating,  > which  > >     gives  > >     >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > >     >  > >     >     On reflection the weld cracking on my project was  caused  > by the  > >     fact  > >     >     that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when  it  > was  > >     bent  > >     >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.   The  > plate  > >     was  > >     >     bent as the side was pulled together and this is before  > the  > >     other  > >     >     side of the join is welded.  This would be a good  reason  > for  > >     using a  > >     >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down  plenty  > of  > >     steel. > >     >  > >     >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more  > knowledgeable  > >     than  > >     >     mine at a local technical college evening classes last  > winter.   > >     When  > >     >     I asked him about the properties of the different rods  he  > >     >     replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some > >     >     another".   > >     >     Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. > >     >  > >     >     Regards, > >     >  > >     >     Ted Stone > >     >  > >     >  > >     >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...>  > wrote: > >     >     >   > >     >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that  my  > >     instructor > >     >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is  common.   > I'll  > >     ask him  > >     >     some > >     >     > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in  > industry  > >     for  > >     >     about 20 > >     >     > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has  > seen  > >     over  > >     >     3000 of > >     >     > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full  of  > info  > >     and  > >     >     advice > >     >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him  in  > >     particular  > >     >     when > >     >     > I sign up for classes. > >     >     >   > >     >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think,  > welding  > >     supply  > >     >     shop > >     >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and  7018  > would  > >     be the > >     >     > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be  > without  > >     the  > >     >     full > >     >     > set... > >     >     >   > >     >     > Brian > >     >     >  > >     >     > -----Original Message----- > >     >     > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  > >     >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > >     >     > To: origamiboats@y... > >     >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     > Brian, > >     >     > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor  additions.  > Pipe  > >     welders > >     >     > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018  to  > >     eliminate > >     >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant  where  > we  > >     had lots  > >     >     of > >     >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit.  > 7018  > >     should be > >     >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up  > moisture  > >     it  > >     >     welds > >     >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical  > position  > >     but the > >     >     > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.   6013  > is  > >     popular  > >     >     for > >     >     > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse  > industry,  > >     but it  > >     >     sure > >     >     > doesn't make very strong welds. > >     >     >   > >     >     > Gary H. Lucas > >     >     >  > >     >     > ----- Original Message -----  > >     >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  > >     >     > To: origamiboats@y...  > >     >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > >     >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >     >     >  > >     >     > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested  in  > them  > >     since  > >     >     I'm in > >     >     > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in  the  > >     middle of > >     >     > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  > >     thicknesses, all > >     >     > positions" certification.  Your note below raises  > several  > >     issues  > >     >     that > >     >     > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what  my  > book  > >     and  > >     >     teacher > >     >     > have been saying.  Those with more practical  experience  > can  > >     >     add/subtract > >     >     > from what I'll say: > >     >     >   > >     >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to  > use,  > >     but does  > >     >     not > >     >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding  and  > >     applications > >     >     > where high strength is not needed. > >     >     >   > >     >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze  > electrodes  > >     that  > >     >     work > >     >     > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to  the  > other  > >     weld > >     >     > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  > >     their 'digging' > >     >     > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for  odd- > >     position  > >     >     welding > >     >     > where high strength is required.  Downside is that  these  > >     electrodes > >     >     > spatter more. > >     >     >   > >     >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze  > electrode  > >     that is  > >     >     good > >     >     > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint  > welding.   > >     This > >     >     > electrode is a general purpose electrode for  production  > >     operation  > >     >     but is > >     >     > not for high strength applications. > >     >     >   > >     >     > For high strength applications, my instructor  recommends  > 7018  > >     for  > >     >     flat > >     >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for  > vertical  > >     and > >     >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't  > need the  > >     high > >     >     > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or  are  > >     welding  > >     >     pipes, > >     >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise  you  > can  > >     get > >     >     > porosity. > >     >     >   > >     >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several  > problems.   > >     >     Porosity > >     >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze  > where  > >     you were > >     >     > welding, welding technique, contamination due to  > humidity or  > >     age  > >     >     etc.) > >     >     > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks  > >     longitudinally.   > >     >     Lifting > >     >     > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  > >     shielding) can > >     >     > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of  rod  > to  > >     base  > >     >     metal > >     >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013  weld,  > the  > >     crack  > >     >     may > >     >     > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface  > because  > >     6013  > >     >     doesn't > >     >     > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A  > >     combination of  > >     >     the > >     >     > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure  out  > which  > >     issue > >     >     (s) > >     >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off  > here...just  > >     >     passing on > >     >     > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva  lot  > of  > >     welding > >     >     > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more  > pragmatic  > >     >     answer, but > >     >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told  anyway...some  > things  > >     to  > >     >     think > >     >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does  > require  > >     a > >     >     > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. > >     >     >   > >     >     > Brian > >     >     >   > >     >     >   > >     >     >  > >     >     > -----Original Message----- > >     >     > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  > >     >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > >     >     > To: origamiboats@y... > >     >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     > Brent, > >     >     >  > >     >     > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024  > rods.   > >     What  > >     >     > properties are you particularly interested in?  The  > reason I  > >     ask is  > >     >     > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they  > don't  > >     do 6011  > >     >     > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024  > amongst  > >     >     > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded  the  > >     chine  > >     >     > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom  sheets  > >     together,  > >     >     > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the  > existing  > >     welds  > >     >     in  > >     >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is  no  > >     problem to  > >     >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it  > right  > >     this  > >     >     > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join  > overlaps  > >     which  > >     >     is  > >     >     > obviously better than not meeting and understandable  > given  > >     usual  > >     >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on  getting a  > >     decent fit  > >     >     > other than offering it up and trimming off? > >     >     >  > >     >     > Regards, > >     >     >  > >     >     > Ted Stone > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >     >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >     >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >     >     >  > >     >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms  > of  > >     Service > >     >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >     >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >     >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >     >     >  > >     >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > >     >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.  > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     >  > >     >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >     >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >     >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >     >     >  > >     >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms  > of  > >     Service > >     >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >     >  > >     >  > >     >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >     >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >     unsubscribe@y...  > >     >  > >     >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms  > of  > >     Service.  > >     >  > >     >  > >     >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor  > >     >               ADVERTISEMENT > >     >               > >     >         > >     >  > >     >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >     >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >     unsubscribe@y...  > >     >  > >     >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms  of  > >     Service. > >  > >  > >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.  > >  > >  > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.  > >  > >  > >  >  > -- |
952|938|2002-07-03 18:37:09|edward_stoneuk|Re: Welding Rods|Gary,  Thanks for the info.  I guess that is what might be expected with using a 7024 rod  downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for flat / horizontal use  only?  Regards, Ted Stone   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > Ted, > Assuming you could get two perfect welds with two different rods  you probably would get two very similar strength welds.  In the real  world that rarely happens so choosing a rod with particular  properties will often give you a better weld.  Years ago I had a  young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets to angle iron posts  using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds LOOKED very nice.  I told  him they were no good and he protested.  I struck the bracket hard  with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! >  > Earlier we were talking about mig welding.  I cautioned everyone  that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for welding anything but  very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire because of greater  penetration.  Every time I have said this I get tons of flack about  it, especially from welders.  However, I have been having mild steel  parts hot dip galvanized for many years.  EVERY time someone uses  0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld failures from lack of  penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when you weld thousands of  parts that hang machinery over peoples heads how many bad welds are  acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to near zero simply by  insisting in writing on our prints that no parts would be accepted if  welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding with stick is no  different, use the rod that will give you the best chance of  producing a good weld. >  > Gary H. Lucas >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: edward_stoneuk  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >   Brian and Gary, >  >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a 60,000  >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger  than  >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness given  >   that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared,  >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the  same  >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024 weld  of  >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? >  >  >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least two  >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was  >   looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in message  937  >   as closely as possible.  Following yours and others advice I have  >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar  qualities to  >   6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of 7024  as  >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I  took  >   their technical reps advice on which to choose and he recommended  the  >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because that is  the  >   one that the distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has 160%  weld  >   metal recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes the  7024  >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that? >  >  >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism  towards  >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them but  we  >   used them on the welding course so its probably a case of better  the  >   devil you know) shows five different types of 6013 rods, three of  >   which include in their field of application statements  shipbuilding,  >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for  shipbuilding  >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that might  be).   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30  >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have also  >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. >  >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed as  >   pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian.  You  can  >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good  >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you can  mostly  >   get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a full  >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will tend  to  >   blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod or  for  >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the  case of  >   the origami boats where many of the plates have to be manipulated  >   before the finish weld is done on the other side the first weld  has  >   to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will  tend to  >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on the  other  >   side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep penetrating  rod to  >   be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning out  of  >   the vee.  I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the  above a  >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his views in due  >   course. >  >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and  feed  >   back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting  things  >   straight in ones mind. >  >   Regards, >   Ted Stone >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: >   > MessageBrian, >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of interest.  I did a  repair on  >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I had  to  >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. >   >  >   > Gary H. Lucas >   >   ----- Original Message -----  >   >   From: Brian Dixon  >   >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >   >  >   >  >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds  like  >   you've still got some reversals of logic going on.  Here: >   >  >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  >   metal, are for high strength applications because they penetrate  the  >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or DC, the other DC-only I  >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. >   >  >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,  are  >   *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*  penetrate  >   the base metal very deeply. >   >  >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,  is  >   for high strength tough applications because of not only it's  deeper  >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. >   >  >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,  is  >   *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*  penetrate  >   the base metal very deeply. >   >  >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using  7024  >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for  >   strength) is done on the other side.  If it were up to me, I'd  say to  >   follow his directions exactly, even if you have to special order  the  >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013  >   unless you want it to break along those welds when you are out on  the  >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with  information  >   from text books and highly experienced welders. >   >  >   >   Brian >   >     -----Original Message----- >   >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM >   >     To: origamiboats@y... >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >   >  >   >  >   >     Brian and Gary, >   >     Thanks for your advice. >   >  >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods  and  >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in  his  >   mail.   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.   Thyssen  >   is a  >   >     German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so  that  >   is why  >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers  that I  >   use,  >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods  in  >   stock.   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't  have >   >     any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld  mostly  >   from one  >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I  guess  >   unless  >   >     you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look  >   after.    >   >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the  first  >   two  >   >     numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has  a  >   tensile  >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the  welding  >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat  and  >   the  >   >     last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod  is  >   >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod  suitable  >   for  >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating,  which  >   gives  >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. >   >  >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by  the  >   fact  >   >     that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it  was  >   bent  >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The  plate  >   was  >   >     bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the  >   other  >   >     side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason  for  >   using a  >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty  of  >   steel. >   >  >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more  knowledgeable  >   than  >   >     mine at a local technical college evening classes last  winter.   >   When  >   >     I asked him about the properties of the different rods he  >   >     replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some >   >     another".   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. >   >  >   >     Regards, >   >  >   >     Ted Stone >   >  >   >  >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: >   >     >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my  >   instructor >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.   I'll  >   ask him  >   >     some >   >     > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in  industry  >   for  >   >     about 20 >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has  seen  >   over  >   >     3000 of >   >     > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of  info  >   and  >   >     advice >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in  >   particular  >   >     when >   >     > I sign up for classes. >   >     >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think,  welding  >   supply  >   >     shop >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018  would  >   be the >   >     > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be  without  >   the  >   >     full >   >     > set... >   >     >   >   >     > Brian >   >     >  >   >     > -----Original Message----- >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     > Brian, >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions.  Pipe  >   welders >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to  >   eliminate >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where  we  >   had lots  >   >     of >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit.  7018  >   should be >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up  moisture  >   it  >   >     welds >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical  position  >   but the >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is  >   popular  >   >     for >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse  industry,  >   but it  >   >     sure >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. >   >     >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas >   >     >  >   >     > ----- Original Message -----  >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  >   >     > To: origamiboats@y...  >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >     >  >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in  them  >   since  >   >     I'm in >   >     > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the  >   middle of >   >     > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  >   thicknesses, all >   >     > positions" certification.  Your note below raises several  >   issues  >   >     that >   >     > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my  book  >   and  >   >     teacher >   >     > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience  can  >   >     add/subtract >   >     > from what I'll say: >   >     >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to  use,  >   but does  >   >     not >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and  >   applications >   >     > where high strength is not needed. >   >     >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze  electrodes  >   that  >   >     work >   >     > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the  other  >   weld >   >     > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  >   their 'digging' >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd- >   position  >   >     welding >   >     > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these  >   electrodes >   >     > spatter more. >   >     >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode  >   that is  >   >     good >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint  welding.   >   This >   >     > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production  >   operation  >   >     but is >   >     > not for high strength applications. >   >     >   >   >     > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends  7018  >   for  >   >     flat >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for  vertical  >   and >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need  the  >   high >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are  >   welding  >   >     pipes, >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you  can  >   get >   >     > porosity. >   >     >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several  problems.   >   >     Porosity >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze  where  >   you were >   >     > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity  or  >   age  >   >     etc.) >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks  >   longitudinally.   >   >     Lifting >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  >   shielding) can >   >     > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod  to  >   base  >   >     metal >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld,  the  >   crack  >   >     may >   >     > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface  because  >   6013  >   >     doesn't >   >     > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A  >   combination of  >   >     the >   >     > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out  which  >   issue >   >     (s) >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off  here...just  >   >     passing on >   >     > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of  >   welding >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more  pragmatic  >   >     answer, but >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some  things  >   to  >   >     think >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does  require  >   a >   >     > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. >   >     >   >   >     > Brian >   >     >   >   >     >   >   >     >  >   >     > -----Original Message----- >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     > Brent, >   >     >  >   >     > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024  rods.   >   What  >   >     > properties are you particularly interested in?  The  reason I  >   ask is  >   >     > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they  don't  >   do 6011  >   >     > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024  amongst  >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the  >   chine  >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets  >   together,  >   >     > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the  existing  >   welds  >   >     in  >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no  >   problem to  >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it  right  >   this  >   >     > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join  overlaps  >   which  >   >     is  >   >     > obviously better than not meeting and understandable  given  >   usual  >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a  >   decent fit  >   >     > other than offering it up and trimming off? >   >     >  >   >     > Regards, >   >     >  >   >     > Ted Stone >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >     >  >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms  of  >   Service >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >     >  >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.  >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     >  >   >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >     >  >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms  of  >   Service >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . >   >  >   >  >   >     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >   unsubscribe@y...  >   >  >   >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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953|938|2002-07-03 19:36:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Welding Rods|          Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look  how nice those welds are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you didn't  know that penetration makes a big difference in weld strength you'd say any  of these rods are okay.   Gary H. Lucas     ----- Original Message -----    <b>From:</b>    edward_stoneuk    <b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com       <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37    PM   <b>Subject:</b> [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods   Gary,Thanks for the info.I guess that is what    might be expected with using a 7024 rod downhand.  Doesn't the **2*    means it is for flat / horizontal use only?Regards,Ted    Stone--- In origamiboats@y...,    "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>    wrote:> Ted,> Assuming you could get two perfect welds with two    different rods you probably would get two very similar strength    welds.  In the real world that rarely happens so choosing a rod with    particular properties will often give you a better weld.  Years ago I    had a young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets to angle iron posts    using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds LOOKED very nice.  I    told him they were no good and he protested.  I struck the bracket    hard with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him!> >    Earlier we were talking about mig welding.  I cautioned everyone that    they should not use 0.035" mig wire for welding anything but very thin    metal, they should use 0.045" wire because of greater penetration.     Every time I have said this I get tons of flack about it, especially from    welders.  However, I have been having mild steel parts hot dip    galvanized for many years.  EVERY time someone uses 0.035" mig wire    to weld my parts I get weld failures from lack of penetration.  Not    every weld is bad, but when you weld thousands of parts that hang    machinery over peoples heads how many bad welds are acceptable?  We    reduced the failure rate to near zero simply by insisting in writing on    our prints that no parts would be accepted if welded using 0.035" welding    wire.  Welding with stick is no different, use the rod that will give    you the best chance of producing a good weld.> > Gary H.    Lucas>   ----- Original Message ----- >      From: edward_stoneuk >   To: origamiboats@y... >   Sent:    Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM>   Subject: [origamiboats] Re:    Welding Rods> > >   Brian and Gary,>    >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying    that a 60,000 >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or    6011 rod is stronger than >   the same plate welded with    a 6013 rod to the same thickness given >   that both    welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared, >      chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the same    >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger    than a 7024 weld of >   the same thickness and quality in    the same metal?> > >   Because I could not get    the 6011 rods and could get at least two >   different types    of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was >   looking    for so that I could follow his recommendations in message 937    >   as closely as possible.  Following yours and others    advice I have >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now    understand has similar qualities to >   6011 and will    pick them up today together with a packet of 7024 as >      Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I took    >   their technical reps advice on which to choose and he    recommended the >   one with 180% weld metal recovery,    mainly I think because that is the >   one that the    distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has 160% weld    >   metal recovery.  Which one would you    recommend?  Who makes the 7024 >   Jet Rod and do    you know what the recovery is on that?> > >      The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism towards    >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of    them but we >   used them on the welding course so its    probably a case of better the >   devil you know) shows    five different types of 6013 rods, three of >   which include    in their field of application statements shipbuilding,    >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for    shipbuilding >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade    2, (whatever that might be).  >   I have been using    their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30 >   (both    6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have also    >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013.>    >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all    listed as >   pipeline rods which of course confirms what you    say Brian.  You can >   usually only weld from one    side of a pipe so you need good >   penetration to get a    strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you can mostly >      get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a full    >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod    will tend to >   blow holes throught the plate and so a    mild penetration rod or for >   that matter a quick    freeze rod will make life easier.  In the case of    >   the origami boats where many of the plates have to be    manipulated >   before the finish weld is done on the other    side the first weld has >   to strong enough to take that    but a deep penetrating rod will tend to >   blow holes in    it.  The backing of this first thick weld on the other    >   side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep    penetrating rod to >   be used, which copes better with a    less than perfect cleaning out of >   the vee.  I    think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the above a    >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his    views in due >   course.> >   My    apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and feed    >   back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in    getting things >   straight in ones mind.>    >   Regards,>   Ted Stone>    >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:>      > MessageBrian,>   > You have it right.  Just as a    point of interest.  I did a repair on >   drawbars    in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I had to    >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi.>      > >   > Gary H. Lucas>      >   ----- Original Message ----- >      >   From: Brian Dixon >   >   To:    origamiboats@y... >      >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM>      >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods>   > >   > >      >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds    like >   you've still got some reversals of logic going    on.  Here:>   > >   >      - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the filler    >   metal, are for high strength applications because they    penetrate the >   base metal deeper.  One can be    used AC or DC, the other DC-only I >   believe...too lazy to    look it up right now.>   > >      >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal,    are >   *not* for high strength applications because it    does *not* penetrate >   the base metal very    deeply.>   > >   >   - 7018,    regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is    >   for high strength tough applications because of not only    it's deeper >   penetration but also because of it's    ductility.>   > >   >   -    7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is    >   *not* for high strength applications because it does    *not* penetrate >   the base metal very    deeply.>   > >   >   Without    hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using 7024    >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld    (for >   strength) is done on the other side.  If it    were up to me, I'd say to >   follow his directions    exactly, even if you have to special order the >      rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013    >   unless you want it to break along those welds when you    are out on the >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but    I can back it up with information >   from text books and    highly experienced welders.>   > >      >   Brian>   >        -----Original Message----->   >        From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >      >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30    PM>   >     To: origamiboats@y...>      >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods>   > >   > >      >     Brian and Gary,>      >     Thanks for your advice.>   >    >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen    technical rep about the welding rods and >      >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent    recommended in his >   mail.  >      >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of    6010.  Thyssen >   is a >      >     German company where they tend to use only DC    welders; so that >   is why >      >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the    two suppliers that I >   use, >      >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep    6010 rods in >   stock.  >      >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess    they don't have>   >     any    pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly    >   from one >      >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not    re-dried so I guess >   unless >      >     you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is    easier to look >   after.   >      >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system is    that the first >   two >      >     numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a    60** rod has a >   tensile >      >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows    the welding >   >     positions,    e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and >      the >   >     last number I cannot    remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is >      >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi    rod suitable >   for >      >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder in    the coating, which >   gives >      >     weld metal recovery greater than    100%.>   > >      >     On reflection the weld cracking on my project was    caused by the >   fact >      >     that the weld metal was thinner than the plate    and when it was >   bent >      >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it    cracked.  The plate >   was >      >     bent as the side was pulled together and this is    before the >   other >      >     side of the join is welded.  This would be a    good reason for >   using a >      >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays    down plenty of >   steel.>   >    >   >     Brian your course instructor    sounds a bit more knowledgeable >   than    >   >     mine at a local technical    college evening classes last winter.  >   When    >   >     I asked him about the    properties of the different rods he >      >     replied "Well some welders like to use one sort    and some>   >     another".     >   >     Probably true but not the    answer I was expecting.>   > >      >     Regards,>   >    >   >     Ted    Stone>   > >   > >      >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote:>      >     >  >      >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had    forgotten that my >   instructor>      >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018    is common.  I'll >   ask him >      >     some>      >     > more about that to get his feedback...he    worked in industry >   for >      >     about 20>      >     > years, and now has over 20 years as a    teacher and has seen >   over >      >     3000 of>      >     > his students become    certified..impressive.  He's full of info >   and    >   >     advice>      >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.     I look for him in >   particular >      >     when>      >     > I sign up for classes.>      >     >  >      >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I    think, welding >   supply >      >     shop>      >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think    6010/6011 and 7018 would >   be the>      >     > staples of the industry and no welding shop    should be without >   the >      >     full>      >     > set...>      >     >  >      >     > Brian>      >     > >      >     > -----Original    Message----->   >     > From: Gary    H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] >      >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49    PM>   >     > To: origamiboats@y...>      >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding    Rods>   >     >    >   >     > >      >     > Brian,>      >     > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor    additions. Pipe >   welders>      >     > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it    with 7018 to >   eliminate>      >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in a    plastics plant where we >   had lots >      >     of>      >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees    Fahrenheit. 7018 >   should be>      >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the    coating picks up moisture >   it >      >     welds>      >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in    the vertical position >   but the>      >     > very fluid slag covering takes skill to    control.  6013 is >   popular >      >     for>      >     > low pressure water pipe welding in the    greenhouse industry, >   but it >      >     sure>      >     > doesn't make very strong    welds.>   >     >     >   >     > Gary H.    Lucas>   >     >    >   >     > ----- Original Message    ----- >   >     > From: Brian     <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon    >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... >      >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50    PM>   >     > Subject: RE:    [origamiboats] Welding Rods>   >        > >   >     > I'm not building    an origami boat, but am interested in them >   since    >   >     I'm in>      >     > general interested in building metal    boats.  I'm in the >   middle of>      >     > welding classes and working towards "all    steel, all >   thicknesses, all>      >     > positions" certification.  Your note    below raises several >   issues >      >     that>      >     > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell    you what my book >   and >      >     teacher>      >     > have been saying.  Those with more    practical experience can >   >        add/subtract>   >     > from what    I'll say:>   >     >     >   >     >   - 7024, aka    "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, >   but does    >   >     not>      >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side    tack welding and >   applications>      >     > where high strength is not    needed.>   >     >     >   >     >   - 6010    & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes    >   that >   >        work>   >     > well for overhead    and vertical welds in addition to the other >      weld>   >     > positions.     Works well for unbeveled joints due to >   their    'digging'>   >     >    characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for    odd->   position >      >     welding>      >     > where high strength is required.     Downside is that these >   electrodes>      >     > spatter more.>      >     >  >      >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow    penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode >   that is    >   >     good>      >     > for poor fit situations.  Good for    beveled joint welding.  >   This>      >     > electrode is a general purpose electrode for    production >   operation >      >     but is>      >     > not for high strength    applications.>   >     >     >   >     > For high strength    applications, my instructor recommends 7018 >   for    >   >     flat>      >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or    6011 for vertical >   and>      >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine    if you don't need the >   high>      >     > strength.  If you have gaps, rust,    galvanizing, or are >   welding >      >     pipes,>      >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean    metal, otherwise you can >   get>      >     > porosity.>      >     >  >      >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be    several problems.  >   >        Porosity>   >     > is one, e.g.    from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where >   you    were>   >     > welding, welding    technique, contamination due to humidity or >   age    >   >     etc.)>      >     > Porosity can result in a weak bead that    cracks >   longitudinally.  >      >     Lifting>      >     > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly    (loss of >   shielding) can>      >     > start a crater crack which propagates.     Mismatch of rod to >   base >      >     metal>      >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress    on a 6013 weld, the >   crack >      >     may>      >     > have started at the filler-to-base metal    interface because >   6013 >      >     doesn't>      >     > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for    example.  A >   combination of >      >     the>      >     > above...you'll have to examine your welds to    figure out which >   issue>      >     (s)>      >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not    too far off here...just >   >        passing on>   >     > class notes    really, because I don't have a helluva lot of >      welding>   >     > experience    yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic    >   >     answer,    but>   >     > I thought I'd share    what we've been told anyway...some things >   to    >   >     think>      >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple    topic and does require >   a>      >     > reasonably high level of expertise to get it    right.>   >     >     >   >     >    Brian>   >     >     >   >     >     >   >     > >      >     > -----Original    Message----->   >     > From:    edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] >      >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19    AM>   >     > To: origamiboats@y...>      >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding    Rods>   >     >    >   >     > >      >     > Brent,>      >     > >      >     > With regard to your recommendation of 6011    and 7024 rods.  >   What >      >     > properties are you particularly interested    in?  The reason I >   ask is >      >     > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods    and they don't >   do 6011 >      >     > although they have five types of 6013 and    two of 7024 amongst >   >     >    others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the    >   chine >   >        > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets    >   together, >      >     > which causes the chine angle to change, some    of the existing >   welds >      >     in >      >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the    centre.  It is no >   problem to >      >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would like    to do it right >   this >      >     > time.  The other thing is that the    transverse join overlaps >   which >      >     is >      >     > obviously better than not meeting and    understandable given >   usual >      >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have any    advice on getting a >   decent fit >      >     > other than offering it up and trimming    off?>   >     >    >   >     >    Regards,>   >     >    >   >     > Ted    Stone>   >     >    >   >     > >      >     > To Post a message, send it to:      origamiboats@y...>      >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message    to:>   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    >   >     > >      >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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954|938|2002-07-04 19:27:21|richytill|Re: Welding Rods|There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the number you will see this  to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs tensile.  Can be used  AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate is fair to good,  vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really well: it does most things  fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor environment better than- say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with no problems.  Used  it on the inside of the chine because I had plenty of it on hand and  it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and equivilent filler metal)  because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and can handle the  outdoor environment.  I have welded in Canada, the UK and the US and  now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal program.  Given  appropriate plate set up, the most common structural defects in  welding are not linked to the type of rod or filler material but to  the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics and speed of travel  of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding with integrity is control  of the weld pool.  rt        --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look how nice those welds  are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you didn't know that  penetration makes a big difference in weld strength you'd say any of  these rods are okay. >  > Gary H. Lucas >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: edward_stoneuk  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >   Gary, >  >   Thanks for the info. >  >   I guess that is what might be expected with using a 7024 rod  >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for flat / horizontal use  >   only? >  >   Regards, >   Ted Stone >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: >   > Ted, >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds with two different  rods  >   you probably would get two very similar strength welds.  In the  real  >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod with particular  >   properties will often give you a better weld.  Years ago I had a  >   young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets to angle iron posts  >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds LOOKED very nice.  I  told  >   him they were no good and he protested.  I struck the bracket  hard  >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! >   >  >   > Earlier we were talking about mig welding.  I cautioned  everyone  >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for welding anything but  >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire because of greater  >   penetration.  Every time I have said this I get tons of flack  about  >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have been having mild  steel  >   parts hot dip galvanized for many years.  EVERY time someone uses  >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld failures from lack of  >   penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when you weld thousands  of  >   parts that hang machinery over peoples heads how many bad welds  are  >   acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to near zero simply by  >   insisting in writing on our prints that no parts would be  accepted if  >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding with stick is no  >   different, use the rod that will give you the best chance of  >   producing a good weld. >   >  >   > Gary H. Lucas >   >   ----- Original Message -----  >   >   From: edward_stoneuk  >   >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >   >  >   >  >   >   Brian and Gary, >   >  >   >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are you saying that a  60,000  >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger  >   than  >   >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness  given  >   >   that both welds  are full thickness welds in fully prepared,  >   >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have  the  >   same  >   >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024  weld  >   of  >   >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? >   >  >   >  >   >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least  two  >   >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent  was  >   >   looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in  message  >   937  >   >   as closely as possible.  Following yours and others advice I  have  >   >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar  >   qualities to  >   >   6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of  7024  >   as  >   >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so  I  >   took  >   >   their technical reps advice on which to choose and he  recommended  >   the  >   >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because  that is  >   the  >   >   one that the distributor keeps in stock.  The other rod has  160%  >   weld  >   >   metal recovery.  Which one would you recommend?  Who makes  the  >   7024  >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that? >   >  >   >  >   >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism  >   towards  >   >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them  but  >   we  >   >   used them on the welding course so its probably a case of  better  >   the  >   >   devil you know) shows five different types of 6013 rods,  three of  >   >   which include in their field of application statements  >   shipbuilding,  >   >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for  >   shipbuilding  >   >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that  might  >   be).   >   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau  30  >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier.  I have  also  >   >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. >   >  >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed  as  >   >   pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian.   You  >   can  >   >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good  >   >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a ship or a tank you  can  >   mostly  >   >   get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a  full  >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will  tend  >   to  >   >   blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod  or  >   for  >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier.  In the  >   case of  >   >   the origami boats where many of the plates have to be  manipulated  >   >   before the finish weld is done on the other side the first  weld  >   has  >   >   to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will  >   tend to  >   >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this first thick weld on  the  >   other  >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep  penetrating  >   rod to  >   >   be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning  out  >   of  >   >   the vee.  I think that is what you are saying Brian.  Is the  >   above a  >   >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent will give his views in  due  >   >   course. >   >  >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and  >   feed  >   >   back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting  >   things  >   >   straight in ones mind. >   >  >   >   Regards, >   >   Ted Stone >   >  >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" <gary.lucas@v...>  wrote: >   >   > MessageBrian, >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of interest.  I did a  >   repair on  >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel.  I  had  >   to  >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. >   >   >  >   >   > Gary H. Lucas >   >   >   ----- Original Message -----  >   >   >   From: Brian Dixon  >   >   >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM >   >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >   >   >  >   >   >  >   >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it  sounds  >   like  >   >   you've still got some reversals of logic going on.  Here: >   >   >  >   >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the  filler  >   >   metal, are for high strength applications because they  penetrate  >   the  >   >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or DC, the other DC- only I  >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. >   >   >  >   >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal,  >   are  >   >   *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*  >   penetrate  >   >   the base metal very deeply. >   >   >  >   >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal,  >   is  >   >   for high strength tough applications because of not only it's  >   deeper  >   >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. >   >   >  >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler  metal,  >   is  >   >   *not* for high strength applications because it does *not*  >   penetrate  >   >   the base metal very deeply. >   >   >  >   >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is  using  >   7024  >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld  (for  >   >   strength) is done on the other side.  If it were up to me,  I'd  >   say to  >   >   follow his directions exactly, even if you have to special  order  >   the  >   >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and  6013  >   >   unless you want it to break along those welds when you are  out on  >   the  >   >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can back it up with  >   information  >   >   from text books and highly experienced welders. >   >   >  >   >   >   Brian >   >   >     -----Original Message----- >   >   >     From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >   >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM >   >   >     To: origamiboats@y... >   >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >   >   >  >   >   >  >   >   >     Brian and Gary, >   >   >     Thanks for your advice. >   >   >  >   >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding  rods  >   and  >   >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended  in  >   his  >   >   mail.   >   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.   >   Thyssen  >   >   is a  >   >   >     German company where they tend to use only DC welders;  so  >   that  >   >   is why  >   >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two  suppliers  >   that I  >   >   use,  >   >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010  rods  >   in  >   >   stock.   >   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they  don't  >   have >   >   >     any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld  >   mostly  >   >   from one  >   >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I  >   guess  >   >   unless  >   >   >     you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to  look  >   >   after.    >   >   >     My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that  the  >   first  >   >   two  >   >   >     numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod  has  >   a  >   >   tensile  >   >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the  >   welding  >   >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals  flat  >   and  >   >   the  >   >   >     last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024  rod  >   is  >   >   >     therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod  >   suitable  >   >   for  >   >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating,  >   which  >   >   gives  >   >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. >   >   >  >   >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on my project was  caused by  >   the  >   >   fact  >   >   >     that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when  it  >   was  >   >   bent  >   >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.   The  >   plate  >   >   was  >   >   >     bent as the side was pulled together and this is before  the  >   >   other  >   >   >     side of the join is welded.  This would be a good  reason  >   for  >   >   using a  >   >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down  plenty  >   of  >   >   steel. >   >   >  >   >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more  >   knowledgeable  >   >   than  >   >   >     mine at a local technical college evening classes last  >   winter.   >   >   When  >   >   >     I asked him about the properties of the different rods  he  >   >   >     replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some >   >   >     another".   >   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. >   >   >  >   >   >     Regards, >   >   >  >   >   >     Ted Stone >   >   >  >   >   >  >   >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...>  wrote: >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that  my  >   >   instructor >   >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is  common.   >   I'll  >   >   ask him  >   >   >     some >   >   >     > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in  >   industry  >   >   for  >   >   >     about 20 >   >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has  >   seen  >   >   over  >   >   >     3000 of >   >   >     > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full  of  >   info  >   >   and  >   >   >     advice >   >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him  in  >   >   particular  >   >   >     when >   >   >     > I sign up for classes. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think,  >   welding  >   >   supply  >   >   >     shop >   >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and  7018  >   would  >   >   be the >   >   >     > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be  >   without  >   >   the  >   >   >     full >   >   >     > set... >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > Brian >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- >   >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... >   >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >   >     >  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > Brian, >   >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor  additions.  >   Pipe  >   >   welders >   >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018  to  >   >   eliminate >   >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant  where  >   we  >   >   had lots  >   >   >     of >   >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit.  >   7018  >   >   should be >   >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up  >   moisture  >   >   it  >   >   >     welds >   >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical  >   position  >   >   but the >   >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.   6013 is  >   >   popular  >   >   >     for >   >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse  >   industry,  >   >   but it  >   >   >     sure >   >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > ----- Original Message -----  >   >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y...  >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM >   >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested  in  >   them  >   >   since  >   >   >     I'm in >   >   >     > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in  the  >   >   middle of >   >   >     > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  >   >   thicknesses, all >   >   >     > positions" certification.  Your note below raises  several  >   >   issues  >   >   >     that >   >   >     > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what  my  >   book  >   >   and  >   >   >     teacher >   >   >     > have been saying.  Those with more practical  experience  >   can  >   >   >     add/subtract >   >   >     > from what I'll say: >   >   >     >   >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to  >   use,  >   >   but does  >   >   >     not >   >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding  and  >   >   applications >   >   >     > where high strength is not needed. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze  >   electrodes  >   >   that  >   >   >     work >   >   >     > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to  the  >   other  >   >   weld >   >   >     > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  >   >   their 'digging' >   >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for  odd- >   >   position  >   >   >     welding >   >   >     > where high strength is required.  Downside is that  these  >   >   electrodes >   >   >     > spatter more. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze  electrode  >   >   that is  >   >   >     good >   >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint  >   welding.   >   >   This >   >   >     > electrode is a general purpose electrode for  production  >   >   operation  >   >   >     but is >   >   >     > not for high strength applications. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > For high strength applications, my instructor  recommends  >   7018  >   >   for  >   >   >     flat >   >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for  >   vertical  >   >   and >   >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't  need  >   the  >   >   high >   >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or  are  >   >   welding  >   >   >     pipes, >   >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise  you  >   can  >   >   get >   >   >     > porosity. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several  >   problems.   >   >   >     Porosity >   >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze  >   where  >   >   you were >   >   >     > welding, welding technique, contamination due to  humidity  >   or  >   >   age  >   >   >     etc.) >   >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks  >   >   longitudinally.   >   >   >     Lifting >   >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  >   >   shielding) can >   >   >     > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of  rod  >   to  >   >   base  >   >   >     metal >   >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013  weld,  >   the  >   >   crack  >   >   >     may >   >   >     > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface  >   because  >   >   6013  >   >   >     doesn't >   >   >     > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A  >   >   combination of  >   >   >     the >   >   >     > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure  out  >   which  >   >   issue >   >   >     (s) >   >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off  >   here...just  >   >   >     passing on >   >   >     > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva  lot of  >   >   welding >   >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more  >   pragmatic  >   >   >     answer, but >   >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told  anyway...some  >   things  >   >   to  >   >   >     think >   >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does  >   require  >   >   a >   >   >     > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. >   >   >     >   >   >   >     > Brian >   >   >     >   >   >   >     >   >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- >   >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... >   >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >   >     >  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > Brent, >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024  >   rods.   >   >   What  >   >   >     > properties are you particularly interested in?  The  >   reason I  >   >   ask is  >   >   >     > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they  >   don't  >   >   do 6011  >   >   >     > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024  >   amongst  >   >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded  the  >   >   chine  >   >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom  sheets  >   >   together,  >   >   >     > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the  >   existing  >   >   welds  >   >   >     in  >   >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is  no  >   >   problem to  >   >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it  >   right  >   >   this  >   >   >     > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join  >   overlaps  >   >   which  >   >   >     is  >   >   >     > obviously better than not meeting and understandable  >   given  >   >   usual  >   >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on  getting a  >   >   decent fit  >   >   >     > other than offering it up and trimming off? >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > Regards, >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > Ted Stone >   >   >     >  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!  Terms  >   of  >   >   Service >   >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >   >     >  >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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955|938|2002-07-05 00:35:00|Sanderse|Re: Welding Rods|Agreed.  I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems.  9i used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014 on anything less than 3/16th.    > -----Original Message----- > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@...] > Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the number > you will see this > to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs > tensile.  Can be used > AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate > is fair to good, > vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really well: > it does most things > fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor > environment better than- > say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with > no problems.  Used > it on the inside of the chine because I had > plenty of it on hand and > it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and > equivilent filler metal) > because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and > can handle the > outdoor environment.  I have welded in Canada, > the UK and the US and > now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal > program.  Given > appropriate plate set up, the most common > structural defects in > welding are not linked to the type of rod or > filler material but to > the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics > and speed of travel > of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding with > integrity is control > of the weld pool.  rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look > how nice those welds > are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you > didn't know that > penetration makes a big difference in weld > strength you'd say any of > these rods are okay. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > >   ----- Original Message ----- > >   From: edward_stoneuk > >   To: origamiboats@y... > >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > >   Gary, > > > >   Thanks for the info. > > > >   I guess that is what might be expected with > using a 7024 rod > >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for > flat / horizontal use > >   only? > > > >   Regards, > >   Ted Stone > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > >   > Ted, > >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds > with two different > rods > >   you probably would get two very similar > strength welds.  In the > real > >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod > with particular > >   properties will often give you a better weld. >  Years ago I had a > >   young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets > to angle iron posts > >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds > LOOKED very nice.  I > told > >   him they were no good and he protested.  I > struck the bracket > hard > >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! > >   > > >   > Earlier we were talking about mig welding. > I cautioned > everyone > >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for > welding anything but > >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire > because of greater > >   penetration.  Every time I have said this I > get tons of flack > about > >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have > been having mild > steel > >   parts hot dip galvanized for many years. > EVERY time someone uses > >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld > failures from lack of > >   penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when > you weld thousands > of > >   parts that hang machinery over peoples heads > how many bad welds > are > >   acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to > near zero simply by > >   insisting in writing on our prints that no > parts would be > accepted if > >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding > with stick is no > >   different, use the rod that will give you the > best chance of > >   producing a good weld. > >   > > >   > Gary H. Lucas > >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > >   >   From: edward_stoneuk > >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > >   >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM > >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >   > > >   > > >   >   Brian and Gary, > >   > > >   >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are > you saying that a > 60,000 > >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or > 6011 rod is stronger > >   than > >   >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to > the same thickness > given > >   >   that both welds  are full thickness welds > in fully prepared, > >   >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that > both weld metals have > the > >   same > >   >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be > stronger than a 7024 > weld > >   of > >   >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? > >   > > >   > > >   >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and > could get at least > two > >   >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered > what qualities Brent > was > >   >   looking for so that I could follow his > recommendations in > message > >   937 > >   >   as closely as possible.  Following yours > and others advice I > have > >   >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now > understand has similar > >   qualities to > >   >   6011 and will pick them up today together > with a packet of > 7024 > >   as > >   >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts > of 7024 rods and so > I > >   took > >   >   their technical reps advice on which to > choose and he > recommended > >   the > >   >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly > I think because > that is > >   the > >   >   one that the distributor keeps in stock. > The other rod has > 160% > >   weld > >   >   metal recovery.  Which one would you > recommend?  Who makes > the > >   7024 > >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery > is on that? > >   > > >   > > >   >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any > special favouritism > >   towards > >   >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't > even heard of them > but > >   we > >   >   used them on the welding course so its > probably a case of > better > >   the > >   >   devil you know) shows five different > types of 6013 rods, > three of > >   >   which include in their field of > application statements > >   shipbuilding, > >   >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it > is suitable for > >   shipbuilding > >   >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, > (whatever that > might > >   be). > >   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N > and their Phoenix Blau > 30 > >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of > their supplier.  I have > also > >   >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. > >   > > >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 > rods are all listed > as > >   >   pipeline rods which of course confirms > what you say Brian. > You > >   can > >   >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe > so you need good > >   >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a > ship or a tank you > can > >   mostly > >   >   get to the other side and vee out any > crud and weld to get a > full > >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep > penetrating rod will > tend > >   to > >   >   blow holes throught the plate and so a > mild penetration rod > or > >   for > >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make > life easier.  In the > >   case of > >   >   the origami boats where many of the > plates have to be > manipulated > >   >   before the finish weld is done on the > other side the first > weld > >   has > >   >   to strong enough to take that but a deep > penetrating rod will > >   tend to > >   >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this > first thick weld on > the > >   other > >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld > allows a deep > penetrating > >   rod to > >   >   be used, which copes better with a less > than perfect cleaning > out > >   of > >   >   the vee.  I think that is what you are > saying Brian.  Is the > >   above a > >   >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent > will give his views in > due > >   >   course. > >   > > >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but > writing things down and > >   feed > >   >   back from folks such as yourselves are > very useful in getting > >   things > >   >   straight in ones mind. > >   > > >   >   Regards, > >   >   Ted Stone > >   > > >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > <gary.lucas@v...> > wrote: > >   >   > MessageBrian, > >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of > interest.  I did a > >   repair on > >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made > from T1 steel.  I > had > >   to > >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. > >   >   > > >   >   > Gary H. Lucas > >   >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > >   >   >   From: Brian Dixon > >   >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM > >   >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are > saying below, it > sounds > >   like > >   >   you've still got some reversals of logic > going on.  Here: > >   >   > > >   >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of > tensile strength of the > filler > >   >   metal, are for high strength applications > because they > penetrate > >   the > >   >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or > DC, the other DC- > only I > >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. > >   >   > > >   >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile > strength of the filler > metal, > >   are > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > because it does *not* > >   penetrate > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > >   >   > > >   >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile > strength of the filler > metal, > >   is > >   >   for high strength tough applications > because of not only it's > >   deeper > >   >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. > >   >   > > >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile > strength of the filler > metal, > >   is > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > because it does *not* > >   penetrate > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > >   >   > > >   >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll > guarantee he is > using > >   7024 > >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until > the _real_ weld > (for > >   >   strength) is done on the other side.  If > it were up to me, > I'd > >   say to > >   >   follow his directions exactly, even if > you have to special > order > >   the > >   >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a > boat with 7024 and > 6013 > >   >   unless you want it to break along those > welds when you are > out on > >   the > >   >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can > back it up with > >   information > >   >   from text books and highly experienced welders. > >   >   > > >   >   >   Brian > >   >   >     -----Original Message----- > >   >   >     From: edward_stoneuk > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > >   >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM > >   >   >     To: origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   >     Brian and Gary, > >   >   >     Thanks for your advice. > >   >   > > >   >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical > rep about the welding > rods > >   and > >   >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 > that Brent recommended > in > >   his > >   >   mail. > >   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC > version of 6010. > >   Thyssen > >   >   is a > >   >   >     German company where they tend to > use only DC welders; > so > >   that > >   >   is why > >   >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither > of the two > suppliers > >   that I > >   >   use, > >   >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one > Thyssen, keep 6010 > rods > >   in > >   >   stock. > >   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods > so I guess they > don't > >   have > >   >   >     any pipeline welding customers or > customers that weld > >   mostly > >   >   from one > >   >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry > and not re-dried so I > >   guess > >   >   unless > >   >   >     you need deep penetration then a > 6013 rod is easier to > look > >   >   after. > >   >   >     My understanding of the AWS > numbering system is that > the > >   first > >   >   two > >   >   >     numbers refer to the tensile > strength, e.g. a 60** rod > has > >   a > >   >   tensile > >   >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the > third number shows the > >   welding > >   >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any > position, **2* equals > flat > >   and > >   >   the > >   >   >     last number I cannot remember what > it means.  The 7024 > rod > >   is > >   >   >     therefore, if I have got this > right, a 70,000 psi rod > >   suitable > >   >   for > >   >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron > powder in the coating, > >   which > >   >   gives > >   >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > >   >   > > >   >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on > my project was > caused by > >   the > >   >   fact > >   >   >     that the weld metal was thinner > than the plate and when > it > >   was > >   >   bent > >   >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld > and it cracked. > The > >   plate > >   >   was > >   >   >     bent as the side was pulled > together and this is before > the > >   >   other > >   >   >     side of the join is welded.  This > would be a good > reason > >   for > >   >   using a > >   >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is > stronger and lays down > plenty > >   of > >   >   steel. > >   >   > > >   >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds > a bit more > >   knowledgeable > >   >   than > >   >   >     mine at a local technical college > evening classes last > >   winter. > >   >   When > >   >   >     I asked him about the properties of > the different rods > he > >   >   >     replied "Well some welders like to > use one sort and some > >   >   >     another". > >   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I > was expecting. > >   >   > > >   >   >     Regards, > >   >   > > >   >   >     Ted Stone > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian > Dixon" <briand@d...> > wrote: > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info. > I had forgotten that > my > >   >   instructor > >   >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with > 6010/7018 is > common. > >   I'll > >   >   ask him > >   >   >     some > >   >   >     > more about that to get his > feedback...he worked in > >   industry > >   >   for > >   >   >     about 20 > >   >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years > as a teacher and has > >   seen > >   >   over > >   >   >     3000 of > >   >   >     > his students become > certified..impressive.  He's full > of > >   info > >   >   and > >   >   >     advice > >   >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do > it.  I look for him > in > >   >   particular > >   >   >     when > >   >   >     > I sign up for classes. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one > fellow's, Ed I think, > >   welding > >   >   supply > >   >   >     shop > >   >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd > think 6010/6011 and > 7018 > >   would > >   >   be the > >   >   >     > staples of the industry and no > welding shop should be > >   without > >   >   the > >   >   >     full > >   >   >     > set... > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Brian > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > >   >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas > [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Brian, > >   >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. > A few minor > additions. > >   Pipe > >   >   welders > >   >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass > then cap it with 7018 > to > >   >   eliminate > >   >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in > a plastics plant > where > >   we > >   >   had lots > >   >   >     of > >   >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 > degrees Fahrenheit. > >   7018 > >   >   should be > >   >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If > the coating picks up > >   moisture > >   >   it > >   >   >     welds > >   >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice > bead in the vertical > >   position > >   >   but the > >   >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes > skill to control. > 6013 is > >   >   popular > >   >   >     for > >   >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding > in the greenhouse > >   industry, > >   >   but it > >   >   >     sure > >   >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > ----- Original Message ----- > >   >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > >   >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, > but am interested > in > >   them > >   >   since > >   >   >     I'm in > >   >   >     > general interested in building > metal boats.  I'm in > the > >   >   middle of > >   >   >     > welding classes and working > towards "all steel, all > >   >   thicknesses, all > >   >   >     > positions" certification.  Your > note below raises > several > >   >   issues > >   >   >     that > >   >   >     > we've been covering in class, so > I'll tell you what > my > >   book > >   >   and > >   >   >     teacher > >   >   >     > have been saying.  Those with > more practical > experience > >   can > >   >   >     add/subtract > >   >   >     > from what I'll say: > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great > stuff) is very easy to > >   use, > >   >   but does > >   >   >     not > >   >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back > side tack welding > and > >   >   applications > >   >   >     > where high strength is not needed. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep > penetrating_ fast-freeze > >   electrodes > >   >   that > >   >   >     work > >   >   >     > well for overhead and vertical > welds in addition to > the > >   other > >   >   weld > >   >   >     > positions.  Works well for > unbeveled joints due to > >   >   their 'digging' > >   >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher > skill.  Ideal for > odd- > >   >   position > >   >   >     welding > >   >   >     > where high strength is required. > Downside is that > these > >   >   electrodes > >   >   >     > spatter more. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow > penetrating_ fill-freeze > electrode > >   >   that is > >   >   >     good > >   >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good > for beveled joint > >   welding. > >   >   This > >   >   >     > electrode is a general purpose > electrode for > production > >   >   operation > >   >   >     but is > >   >   >     > not for high strength applications. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > For high strength applications, > my instructor > recommends > >   7018 > >   >   for > >   >   >     flat > >   >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, > but 6010 or 6011 for > >   vertical > >   >   and > >   >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 > are fine if you don't > need > >   the > >   >   high > >   >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, > rust, galvanizing, or > are > >   >   welding > >   >   >     pipes, > >   >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires > clean metal, otherwise > you > >   can > >   >   get > >   >   >     > porosity. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, > could be several > >   problems. > >   >   >     Porosity > >   >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric > contamination (a breeze > >   where > >   >   you were > >   >   >     > welding, welding technique, > contamination due to > humidity > >   or > >   >   age > >   >   >     etc.) > >   >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak > bead that cracks > >   >   longitudinally. > >   >   >     Lifting > >   >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld > too quickly (loss of > >   >   shielding) can > >   >   >     > start a crater crack which > propagates.  Mismatch of > rod > >   to > >   >   base > >   >   >     metal > >   >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high > stress on a 6013 > weld, > >   the > >   >   crack > >   >   >     may > >   >   >     > have started at the > filler-to-base metal interface > >   because > >   >   6013 > >   >   >     doesn't > >   >   >     > have as deep a penetration as > 6011 for example.  A > >   >   combination of > >   >   >     the > >   >   >     > above...you'll have to examine > your welds to figure > out > >   which > >   >   issue > >   >   >     (s) > >   >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm > not too far off > >   here...just > >   >   >     passing on > >   >   >     > class notes really, because I > don't have a helluva > lot of > >   >   welding > >   >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else > might provide a more > >   pragmatic > >   >   >     answer, but > >   >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told > anyway...some > >   things > >   >   to > >   >   >     think > >   >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a > simple topic and does > >   require > >   >   a > >   >   >     > reasonably high level of > expertise to get it right. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Brian > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > >   >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Brent, > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > With regard to your > recommendation of 6011 and 7024 > >   rods. > >   >   What > >   >   >     > properties are you particularly > interested in?  The > >   reason I > >   >   ask is > >   >   >     > because my usual supplier sells > Thyssen rods and they > >   don't > >   >   do 6011 > >   >   >     > although they have five types of > 6013 and two of 7024 > >   amongst > >   >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency > DC welder.  I welded > the > >   >   chine > >   >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I > pulled the bottom > sheets > >   >   together, > >   >   >     > which causes the chine angle to > change, some of the > >   existing > >   >   welds > >   >   >     in > >   >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down > the centre.  It is > no > >   >   problem to > >   >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I > would like to do it > >   right > >   >   this > >   >   >     > time.  The other thing is that > the transverse join > >   overlaps > >   >   which > >   >   >     is > >   >   >     > obviously better than not meeting > and understandable > >   given > >   >   usual > >   >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have > any advice on > getting a > >   >   decent fit > >   >   >     > other than offering it up and > trimming off? > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Regards, > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Ted Stone > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > >   of > >   >   Service > >   >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > subject to the Yahoo! > >   >   >     > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > >   >   >     > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > >   of > >   >   Service > >   >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   >     To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > >   >   >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank > message to: origamiboats- > >   >   unsubscribe@y... > >   >   > > >   >   >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > >   >   Service. > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >   >   >               ADVERTISEMENT > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   > > >   >   >   To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@y... > >   >   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message > to: origamiboats- > >   >   unsubscribe@y... > >   >   > > >   >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject > to the Yahoo! Terms > of > >   >   Service. > >   > > >   > > >   >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > >   unsubscribe@y... > >   > > >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > >   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y... > > > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/|
956|938|2002-07-05 01:52:32|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|    Message      Where  do all of you get your information?  The AWS Welding Handbook?  Hope  so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to rely on my textbook (Welding  Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller).  In my text, 7014 is listed as "low  penetration, high speed, fill-freeze".  The text is not clear, but the  description for 6013 differs slightly for penetration and says "shallow  penetration."  Not sure what the difference is between "low" and  "shallow"...any of you know?  My instructor hasn't mentioned 7014, but I'll  ask him and pose a few questions about steel boat building.  Hmmm...I  really appreciate all the welding rod discussion...   Brian        -----Original Message-----<b>From:</b> Sanderse    [mailto:sanderse@...] <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 04, 2002    7:19 PM<b>To:</b> origamiboats@yahoogroups.com<b>Subject:</b> RE:    [origamiboats] Re: Welding RodsAgreed.  I built    a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems.  9iused 7018 in the heavy    keel and stem arts, but 7014 onanything less than 3/16th.>    -----Original Message-----> From: richytill    [mailto:tillrc@...]> Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM> To:    origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding    Rods>>> There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the    number> you will see this> to be an all position rod with 70,000    lbs> tensile.  Can be used> AC/DC.  Penetration is    reasonable, deposit rate> is fair to good,> vertical up is    OK.  It does nothing really well:> it does most things>    fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor> environment better    than-> say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with> no    problems.  Used> it on the inside of the chine because I    had> plenty of it on hand and> it works.  In shipbuilding    we use 6011 (and> equivilent filler metal)> because it is less    suceptible to electrolysis and> can handle the> outdoor    environment.  I have welded in Canada,> the UK and the US    and> now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal>    program.  Given> appropriate plate set up, the most common>    structural defects in> welding are not linked to the type of rod    or> filler material but to> the appropriate temprature, arc    charecteristics> and speed of travel> of the the weld    pool.  Essentially, welding with> integrity is control> of    the weld pool.  rt>>>> --- In    origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas"> <gary.lucas@v...>    wrote:> > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look>    how nice those welds> are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If    you> didn't know that> penetration makes a big difference in    weld> strength you'd say any of> these rods are okay.>    >> > Gary H. Lucas> >   ----- Original    Message -----> >   From: edward_stoneuk>    >   To: origamiboats@y...> >   Sent:    Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM> >   Subject:    [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods> >> >>    >   Gary,> >> >   Thanks for the    info.> >> >   I guess that is what might be    expected with> using a 7024 rod> >      downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for> flat / horizontal    use> >   only?> >> >      Regards,> >   Ted Stone> >>    >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas">    <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:> >   > Ted,>    >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds> with    two different> rods> >   you probably would get two    very similar> strength welds.  In the> real>    >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod> with    particular> >   properties will often give you a better    weld.>  Years ago I had a> >   young guy weld    some angle iron shelf brackets> to angle iron posts>    >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds> LOOKED    very nice.  I> told> >   him they were no good    and he protested.  I> struck the bracket> hard>    >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him!>    >   >> >   > Earlier we were talking    about mig welding.> I cautioned> everyone>    >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for> welding    anything but> >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045"    wire> because of greater> >   penetration.     Every time I have said this I> get tons of flack> about>    >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have>    been having mild> steel> >   parts hot dip    galvanized for many years.> EVERY time someone uses>    >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld> failures    from lack of> >   penetration.  Not every weld is    bad, but when> you weld thousands> of> >      parts that hang machinery over peoples heads> how many bad    welds> are> >   acceptable?  We reduced the    failure rate to> near zero simply by> >   insisting    in writing on our prints that no> parts would be> accepted    if> >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.     Welding> with stick is no> >   different, use the    rod that will give you the> best chance of> >      producing a good weld.> >   >> >      > Gary H. Lucas> >   >   ----- Original    Message -----> >   >   From:    edward_stoneuk> >   >   To:    origamiboats@y...> >   >   Sent: Tuesday,    July 02, 2002 7:42 AM> >   >   Subject:    [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods> >   >>    >   >> >   >   Brian and    Gary,> >   >> >   >      Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are> you saying that a>    60,000> >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded    with a 6010 or> 6011 rod is stronger> >      than> >   >   the same plate welded with a    6013 rod to> the same thickness> given> >      >   that both welds  are full thickness welds> in    fully prepared,> >   >   chamfered and    cleaned joints and that> both weld metals have> the>    >   same> >   >   tensile    strength?  Would a 6011 weld be> stronger than a 7024>    weld> >   of> >   >   the    same thickness and quality in the same metal?> >      >> >   >> >   >      Because I could not get the 6011 rods and> could get at least>    two> >   >   different types of 7024 rods I    wondered> what qualities Brent> was> >      >   looking for so that I could follow his>    recommendations in> message> >   937>    >   >   as closely as possible.  Following    yours> and others advice I> have> >      >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now> understand has    similar> >   qualities to> >      >   6011 and will pick them up today together> with a    packet of> 7024> >   as> >      >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts> of 7024    rods and so> I> >   took> >      >   their technical reps advice on which to> choose and    he> recommended> >   the> >      >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly> I think    because> that is> >   the> >      >   one that the distributor keeps in stock.> The other    rod has> 160%> >   weld> >      >   metal recovery.  Which one would you>    recommend?  Who makes> the> >   7024>    >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the    recovery> is on that?> >   >>    >   >> >   >   The Thyssen    catalogue, (I don't have any> special favouritism>    >   towards> >   >   Thyssen    rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't> even heard of them>    but> >   we> >   >   used    them on the welding course so its> probably a case of>    better> >   the> >   >      devil you know) shows five different> types of 6013 rods,> three    of> >   >   which include in their field    of> application statements> >      shipbuilding,> >   >   one of which, UNION    6013 states that it> is suitable for> >      shipbuilding> >   >   steels corresponding to    Approval Grade 2,> (whatever that> might>    >   be).> >   >   I have been    using their Phoenix Blue N> and their Phoenix Blau> 30>    >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of>    their supplier.  I have> also> >      >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013.> >      >> >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that    matter 8010> rods are all listed> as> >      >   pipeline rods which of course confirms> what you say    Brian.> You> >   can> >      >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe> so you need    good> >   >   penetration to get a strong    weld.  On a> ship or a tank you> can>    >   mostly> >   >   get to the    other side and vee out any> crud and weld to get a> full>    >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a    deep> penetrating rod will> tend> >      to> >   >   blow holes throught the plate and    so a> mild penetration rod> or> >      for> >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod    will make> life easier.  In the> >   case    of> >   >   the origami boats where many of    the> plates have to be> manipulated> >      >   before the finish weld is done on the> other side the    first> weld> >   has> >      >   to strong enough to take that but a deep> penetrating    rod will> >   tend to> >      >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this> first    thick weld on> the> >   other>    >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld>    allows a deep> penetrating> >   rod to>    >   >   be used, which copes better with a    less> than perfect cleaning> out> >      of> >   >   the vee.  I think that is    what you are> saying Brian.  Is the> >   above    a> >   >   reasonable assessment?  No    doubt Brent> will give his views in> due>    >   >   course.> >      >> >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a    bit but> writing things down and> >   feed>    >   >   back from folks such as yourselves    are> very useful in getting> >   things>    >   >   straight in ones mind.>    >   >> >   >      Regards,> >   >   Ted Stone>    >   >> >   >   --- In    origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas"> <gary.lucas@v...>>    wrote:> >   >   > MessageBrian,>    >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a    point of> interest.  I did a> >   repair    on> >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They    were made> from T1 steel.  I> had> >      to> >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000    psi.> >   >   >> >      >   > Gary H. Lucas> >   >      >   ----- Original Message -----> >      >   >   From: Brian Dixon> >      >   >   To: origamiboats@y...>    >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002    8:15 PM> >   >   >   Subject:    RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods> >   >      >> >   >   >> >      >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are>    saying below, it> sounds> >   like>    >   >   you've still got some reversals of    logic> going on.  Here:> >   >      >> >   >   >   - 6010 and    6011, regardless of> tensile strength of the> filler>    >   >   metal, are for high strength    applications> because they> penetrate> >      the> >   >   base metal deeper.  One can    be used AC or> DC, the other DC-> only I>    >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right    now.> >   >   >> >      >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile>    strength of the filler> metal,> >   are>    >   >   *not* for high strength applications>    because it does *not*> >   penetrate>    >   >   the base metal very deeply.>    >   >   >> >      >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile>    strength of the filler> metal,> >   is>    >   >   for high strength tough applications>    because of not only it's> >   deeper>    >   >   penetration but also because of it's    ductility.> >   >   >>    >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of    tensile> strength of the filler> metal,> >      is> >   >   *not* for high strength    applications> because it does *not*> >      penetrate> >   >   the base metal very    deeply.> >   >   >>    >   >   >   Without hearing more from    Brent, I'll> guarantee he is> using> >      7024> >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in    place until> the _real_ weld> (for> >      >   strength) is done on the other side.  If> it were    up to me,> I'd> >   say to> >      >   follow his directions exactly, even if> you have to    special> order> >   the> >      >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a> boat    with 7024 and> 6013> >   >   unless    you want it to break along those> welds when you are> out    on> >   the> >   >   high    seas.  Just my opinion, but I can> back it up with>    >   information> >   >   from    text books and highly experienced welders.> >      >   >> >   >      >   Brian> >   >      >     -----Original Message----->    >   >   >     From:    edward_stoneuk> [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]> >      >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30    PM> >   >   >     To:    origamiboats@y...> >   >      >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods>    >   >   >> >      >   >> >   >      >     Brian and Gary,> >      >   >     Thanks for your advice.>    >   >   >> >      >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen    technical> rep about the welding> rods> >      and> >   >   >        especially the 6011 and the 7024> that Brent recommended>    in> >   his> >   >      mail.> >   >   >        The rep advised that 6011 is the AC> version of 6010.>    >   Thyssen> >   >   is    a> >   >   >        German company where they tend to> use only DC welders;>    so> >   that> >   >   is    why> >   >   >        they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither> of the two>    suppliers> >   that I> >      >   use,> >   >      >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one>    Thyssen, keep 6010> rods> >   in>    >   >   stock.> >      >   >     They refer to them as pipeline    rods> so I guess they> don't> >      have> >   >   >        any pipeline welding customers or> customers that weld>    >   mostly> >   >   from    one> >   >   >        side.  The rods must be kept dry> and not re-dried so I>    >   guess> >   >      unless> >   >   >        you need deep penetration then a> 6013 rod is easier to>    look> >   >   after.> >      >   >     My understanding of the    AWS> numbering system is that> the> >      first> >   >   two> >      >   >     numbers refer to the    tensile> strength, e.g. a 60** rod> has> >      a> >   >   tensile> >      >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i.,    the> third number shows the> >   welding>    >   >   >     positions, e.g.    **1* equals any> position, **2* equals> flat>    >   and> >   >   the>    >   >   >     last number I    cannot remember what> it means.  The 7024> rod>    >   is> >   >      >     therefore, if I have got this> right, a    70,000 psi rod> >   suitable> >      >   for> >   >      >     flat welding.  It also has iron>    powder in the coating,> >   which> >      >   gives> >   >      >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%.>    >   >   >> >      >   >     On reflection the weld cracking    on> my project was> caused by> >      the> >   >   fact> >      >   >     that the weld metal was    thinner> than the plate and when> it> >      was> >   >   bent> >      >   >     the stress was greatest at the    weld> and it cracked.> The> >      plate> >   >   was> >      >   >     bent as the side was    pulled> together and this is before> the>    >   >   other> >      >   >     side of the join is    welded.  This> would be a good> reason>    >   for> >   >   using a>    >   >   >     rod such as the    7024 that is> stronger and lays down> plenty>    >   of> >   >   steel.>    >   >   >> >      >   >     Brian your course instructor    sounds> a bit more> >   knowledgeable>    >   >   than> >      >   >     mine at a local technical    college> evening classes last> >   winter.>    >   >   When> >      >   >     I asked him about the properties    of> the different rods> he> >      >   >     replied "Well some welders like    to> use one sort and some> >   >      >     another".> >      >   >     Probably true but not the answer    I> was expecting.> >   >      >> >   >   >        Regards,> >   >   >>    >   >   >     Ted    Stone> >   >   >> >      >   >> >   >      >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian> Dixon"    <briand@d...>> wrote:> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     > Thanks for the additional info.> I    had forgotten that> my> >   >      instructor> >   >      >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with>    6010/7018 is> common.> >   I'll>    >   >   ask him> >      >   >     some> >      >   >     > more about that to get    his> feedback...he worked in> >   industry>    >   >   for> >      >   >     about 20>    >   >   >     > years, and    now has over 20 years> as a teacher and has> >      seen> >   >   over> >      >   >     3000 of> >      >   >     > his students become>    certified..impressive.  He's full> of> >      info> >   >   and> >      >   >     advice> >      >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how    TO do> it.  I look for him> in> >      >   particular> >   >      >     when> >   >      >     > I sign up for classes.>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     > It    surprises me that the one> fellow's, Ed I think,>    >   welding> >   >      supply> >   >   >        shop> >   >   >        > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd> think 6010/6011 and>    7018> >   would> >   >      be the> >   >   >        > staples of the industry and no> welding shop should be>    >   without> >   >   the>    >   >   >     full>    >   >   >     >    set...> >   >   >        >> >   >   >        > Brian> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     > -----Original Message----->    >   >   >     > From: Gary    H. Lucas> [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]> >      >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002    5:49 PM> >   >   >        > To: origamiboats@y...> >   >      >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding    Rods> >   >   >        >> >   >   >        >> >   >   >        > Brian,> >   >      >     > It all sounds about right to me.> A    few minor> additions.> >   Pipe>    >   >   welders> >      >   >     > often use 6010 as a root    pass> then cap it with 7018> to> >      >   eliminate> >   >      >     > pinholes.  We used to do this    in> a plastics plant> where> >   we>    >   >   had lots> >      >   >     of> >      >   >     > welded piping carrying oil    at 525> degrees Fahrenheit.> >   7018>    >   >   should be> >      >   >     > kept in a heated rod    oven.  If> the coating picks up> >      moisture> >   >   it> >      >   >     welds> >      >   >     > poorly.  7018 will    make a nice> bead in the vertical> >      position> >   >   but the>    >   >   >     > very fluid    slag covering takes> skill to control.> 6013 is>    >   >   popular> >      >   >     for> >      >   >     > low pressure water pipe    welding> in the greenhouse> >   industry,>    >   >   but it> >      >   >     sure> >      >   >     > doesn't make very strong    welds.> >   >   >        >> >   >   >        > Gary H. Lucas> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     > ----- Original Message ----->    >   >   >     > From:    Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon> >      >   >     > To:    origamiboats@y...> >   >      >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM>    >   >   >     > Subject:    RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     > I'm not building an origami boat,>    but am interested> in> >   them>    >   >   since> >      >   >     I'm in> >      >   >     > general interested in    building> metal boats.  I'm in> the>    >   >   middle of> >      >   >     > welding classes and    working> towards "all steel, all> >      >   thicknesses, all> >   >      >     > positions" certification.  Your>    note below raises> several> >   >      issues> >   >   >        that> >   >   >        > we've been covering in class, so> I'll tell you what>    my> >   book> >   >      and> >   >   >        teacher> >   >   >        > have been saying.  Those with> more practical>    experience> >   can> >      >   >     add/subtract>    >   >   >     > from what    I'll say:> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod"    (great> stuff) is very easy to> >   use,>    >   >   but does> >      >   >     not> >      >   >     > penetrate deeply.     Good for back> side tack welding> and> >      >   applications> >   >      >     > where high strength is not needed.>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >        >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep> penetrating_    fast-freeze> >   electrodes> >      >   that> >   >      >     work> >   >      >     > well for overhead and vertical> welds    in addition to> the> >   other>    >   >   weld> >      >   >     > positions.  Works well    for> unbeveled joints due to> >   >      their 'digging'> >   >      >     > characteristic.  Requires    higher> skill.  Ideal for> odd-> >      >   position> >   >      >     welding> >   >      >     > where high strength is required.>    Downside is that> these> >   >      electrodes> >   >      >     > spatter more.> >      >   >     >> >      >   >     >   - 6013 is a    _shallow> penetrating_ fill-freeze> electrode>    >   >   that is> >      >   >     good> >      >   >     > for poor fit    situations.  Good> for beveled joint> >      welding.> >   >   This>    >   >   >     > electrode    is a general purpose> electrode for> production>    >   >   operation> >      >   >     but is> >      >   >     > not for high strength    applications.> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     > For high strength applications,> my    instructor> recommends> >   7018>    >   >   for> >      >   >     flat> >      >   >     > and horizontal (I think)    welds,> but 6010 or 6011 for> >   vertical>    >   >   and> >      >   >     > overhead welds.  7024    and 6013> are fine if you don't> need> >      the> >   >   high> >      >   >     > strength.  If you have    gaps,> rust, galvanizing, or> are> >      >   welding> >   >      >     pipes,> >   >      >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires>    clean metal, otherwise> you> >   can>    >   >   get> >      >   >     > porosity.>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     > For your    cracking problem, hmmmm,> could be several> >      problems.> >   >      >     Porosity> >      >   >     > is one, e.g. from    atmospheric> contamination (a breeze> >      where> >   >   you were>    >   >   >     > welding,    welding technique,> contamination due to> humidity>    >   or> >   >   age>    >   >   >     etc.)>    >   >   >     > Porosity    can result in a weak> bead that cracks> >      >   longitudinally.> >   >      >     Lifting> >   >      >     > the rod from the end of the weld> too    quickly (loss of> >   >   shielding)    can> >   >   >        > start a crater crack which> propagates.  Mismatch of>    rod> >   to> >   >      base> >   >   >        metal> >   >   >        > (doesn't apply here.)  With high> stress on a 6013>    weld,> >   the> >   >      crack> >   >   >        may> >   >   >        > have started at the> filler-to-base metal interface>    >   because> >   >      6013> >   >   >        doesn't> >   >   >        > have as deep a penetration as> 6011 for example.  A>    >   >   combination of> >      >   >     the> >      >   >     > above...you'll have to    examine> your welds to figure> out> >      which> >   >   issue> >      >   >     (s)> >      >   >     > you might have.  Note:    I hope I'm> not too far off> >      here...just> >   >      >     passing on> >      >   >     > class notes really, because    I> don't have a helluva> lot of> >      >   welding> >   >      >     > experience yet.  Someone else>    might provide a more> >   pragmatic>    >   >   >     answer,    but> >   >   >        > I thought I'd share what we've been told> anyway...some>    >   things> >   >   to>    >   >   >     think>    >   >   >     > about I    guess.  Welding's not a> simple topic and does>    >   require> >   >   a>    >   >   >     > reasonably    high level of> expertise to get it right.> >      >   >     >> >      >   >     > Brian>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     >    -----Original Message-----> >   >      >     > From: edward_stoneuk>    [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]> >   >      >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM>    >   >   >     > To:    origamiboats@y...> >   >      >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     >    Brent,> >   >   >        >> >   >   >        > With regard to your> recommendation of 6011 and 7024>    >   rods.> >   >   What>    >   >   >     > properties    are you particularly> interested in?  The> >      reason I> >   >   ask is>    >   >   >     > because my    usual supplier sells> Thyssen rods and they> >      don't> >   >   do 6011>    >   >   >     > although    they have five types of> 6013 and two of 7024> >      amongst> >   >   >        > others.  I use a high frequency> DC welder.  I    welded> the> >   >   chine>    >   >   >     > starting    from both ends.  As I> pulled the bottom> sheets>    >   >   together,> >      >   >     > which causes the chine    angle to> change, some of the> >   existing>    >   >   welds> >      >   >     in> >      >   >     > 6013 cracked    longituduinally down> the centre.  It is> no>    >   >   problem to> >      >   >     > grind and reweld but    obviously I> would like to do it> >   right>    >   >   this> >      >   >     > time.  The other thing    is that> the transverse join> >   overlaps>    >   >   which> >      >   >     is> >      >   >     > obviously better than not    meeting> and understandable> >   given>    >   >   usual> >      >   >     > welding tolerances.     Do you have> any advice on> getting a> >      >   decent fit> >   >      >     > other than offering it up and>    trimming off?> >   >      >     >> >   >      >     > Regards,> >      >   >     >> >      >   >     > Ted Stone>    >   >   >     >>    >   >   >     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957|938|2002-07-05 15:18:08|richytill|Re: Welding Rods|The Lincoln Electric Company has published "New Lessons in ARC  WELDING" since 1940.  There was a 1999 Edition.  Barry Hammel in  Vancouver BC stocks them as would most Lincoln distributors.  The  larger "Proceedures Handbook" costs more and is fairly in depth.  Typically 7024 is intended for plate over 3/16" and is described as  shallow penetration--7014 is intended for material between sheet  metal and heavier plate (ie. 10ga) and is designated as medium  penetration.  6013 is the sheet metal rod.  That said, you can  increase the penetration of 7024 by cranking up the heat and changing  the rod angle or; reduce the penetration of 6010/11 by reducing heat  etc. Back to control of the weld pool.  rt     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: > Where do all of you get your information?  The AWS Welding Handbook? > Hope so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to rely on my > textbook (Welding Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller).  In my text, 7014 is > listed as "low penetration, high speed, fill-freeze".  The text is  not > clear, but the description for 6013 differs slightly for  penetration and > says "shallow penetration."  Not sure what the difference is between > "low" and "shallow"...any of you know?  My instructor hasn't  mentioned > 7014, but I'll ask him and pose a few questions about steel boat > building.  Hmmm...I really appreciate all the welding rod  discussion... >   > Brian >  > -----Original Message----- > From: Sanderse [mailto:sanderse@p...]  > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:19 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  > Agreed.  I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems.  9i > used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014 on > anything less than 3/16th. >  >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] > > Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the number > > you will see this > > to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs > > tensile.  Can be used > > AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate > > is fair to good, > > vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really well: > > it does most things > > fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor > > environment better than- > > say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with > > no problems.  Used > > it on the inside of the chine because I had > > plenty of it on hand and > > it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and > > equivilent filler metal) > > because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and > > can handle the > > outdoor environment.  I have welded in Canada, > > the UK and the US and > > now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal > > program.  Given > > appropriate plate set up, the most common > > structural defects in > > welding are not linked to the type of rod or > > filler material but to > > the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics > > and speed of travel > > of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding with > > integrity is control > > of the weld pool.  rt > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look > > how nice those welds > > are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you > > didn't know that > > penetration makes a big difference in weld > > strength you'd say any of > > these rods are okay. > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > > >   From: edward_stoneuk > > >   To: origamiboats@y... > > >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM > > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > >   Gary, > > > > > >   Thanks for the info. > > > > > >   I guess that is what might be expected with > > using a 7024 rod > > >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for > > flat / horizontal use > > >   only? > > > > > >   Regards, > > >   Ted Stone > > > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > >   > Ted, > > >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds > > with two different > > rods > > >   you probably would get two very similar > > strength welds.  In the > > real > > >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod > > with particular > > >   properties will often give you a better weld. > >  Years ago I had a > > >   young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets > > to angle iron posts > > >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds > > LOOKED very nice.  I > > told > > >   him they were no good and he protested.  I > > struck the bracket > > hard > > >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! > > >   > > > >   > Earlier we were talking about mig welding. > > I cautioned > > everyone > > >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for > > welding anything but > > >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire > > because of greater > > >   penetration.  Every time I have said this I > > get tons of flack > > about > > >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have > > been having mild > > steel > > >   parts hot dip galvanized for many years. > > EVERY time someone uses > > >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld > > failures from lack of > > >   penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when > > you weld thousands > > of > > >   parts that hang machinery over peoples heads > > how many bad welds > > are > > >   acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to > > near zero simply by > > >   insisting in writing on our prints that no > > parts would be > > accepted if > > >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding > > with stick is no > > >   different, use the rod that will give you the > > best chance of > > >   producing a good weld. > > >   > > > >   > Gary H. Lucas > > >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > >   >   From: edward_stoneuk > > >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > >   >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM > > >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > >   > > > >   > > > >   >   Brian and Gary, > > >   > > > >   >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are > > you saying that a > > 60,000 > > >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or > > 6011 rod is stronger > > >   than > > >   >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to > > the same thickness > > given > > >   >   that both welds  are full thickness welds > > in fully prepared, > > >   >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that > > both weld metals have > > the > > >   same > > >   >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be > > stronger than a 7024 > > weld > > >   of > > >   >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? > > >   > > > >   > > > >   >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and > > could get at least > > two > > >   >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered > > what qualities Brent > > was > > >   >   looking for so that I could follow his > > recommendations in > > message > > >   937 > > >   >   as closely as possible.  Following yours > > and others advice I > > have > > >   >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now > > understand has similar > > >   qualities to > > >   >   6011 and will pick them up today together > > with a packet of > > 7024 > > >   as > > >   >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts > > of 7024 rods and so > > I > > >   took > > >   >   their technical reps advice on which to > > choose and he > > recommended > > >   the > > >   >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly > > I think because > > that is > > >   the > > >   >   one that the distributor keeps in stock. > > The other rod has > > 160% > > >   weld > > >   >   metal recovery.  Which one would you > > recommend?  Who makes > > the > > >   7024 > > >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery > > is on that? > > >   > > > >   > > > >   >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any > > special favouritism > > >   towards > > >   >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't > > even heard of them > > but > > >   we > > >   >   used them on the welding course so its > > probably a case of > > better > > >   the > > >   >   devil you know) shows five different > > types of 6013 rods, > > three of > > >   >   which include in their field of > > application statements > > >   shipbuilding, > > >   >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it > > is suitable for > > >   shipbuilding > > >   >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, > > (whatever that > > might > > >   be). > > >   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N > > and their Phoenix Blau > > 30 > > >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of > > their supplier.  I have > > also > > >   >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. > > >   > > > >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 > > rods are all listed > > as > > >   >   pipeline rods which of course confirms > > what you say Brian. > > You > > >   can > > >   >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe > > so you need good > > >   >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a > > ship or a tank you > > can > > >   mostly > > >   >   get to the other side and vee out any > > crud and weld to get a > > full > > >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep > > penetrating rod will > > tend > > >   to > > >   >   blow holes throught the plate and so a > > mild penetration rod > > or > > >   for > > >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make > > life easier.  In the > > >   case of > > >   >   the origami boats where many of the > > plates have to be > > manipulated > > >   >   before the finish weld is done on the > > other side the first > > weld > > >   has > > >   >   to strong enough to take that but a deep > > penetrating rod will > > >   tend to > > >   >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this > > first thick weld on > > the > > >   other > > >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld > > allows a deep > > penetrating > > >   rod to > > >   >   be used, which copes better with a less > > than perfect cleaning > > out > > >   of > > >   >   the vee.  I think that is what you are > > saying Brian.  Is the > > >   above a > > >   >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent > > will give his views in > > due > > >   >   course. > > >   > > > >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but > > writing things down and > > >   feed > > >   >   back from folks such as yourselves are > > very useful in getting > > >   things > > >   >   straight in ones mind. > > >   > > > >   >   Regards, > > >   >   Ted Stone > > >   > > > >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > <gary.lucas@v...> > > wrote: > > >   >   > MessageBrian, > > >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of > > interest.  I did a > > >   repair on > > >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made > > from T1 steel.  I > > had > > >   to > > >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. > > >   >   > > > >   >   > Gary H. Lucas > > >   >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > >   >   >   From: Brian Dixon > > >   >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM > > >   >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are > > saying below, it > > sounds > > >   like > > >   >   you've still got some reversals of logic > > going on.  Here: > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of > > tensile strength of the > > filler > > >   >   metal, are for high strength applications > > because they > > penetrate > > >   the > > >   >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or > > DC, the other DC- > > only I > > >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile > > strength of the filler > > metal, > > >   are > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > because it does *not* > > >   penetrate > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile > > strength of the filler > > metal, > > >   is > > >   >   for high strength tough applications > > because of not only it's > > >   deeper > > >   >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile > > strength of the filler > > metal, > > >   is > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > because it does *not* > > >   penetrate > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll > > guarantee he is > > using > > >   7024 > > >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until > > the _real_ weld > > (for > > >   >   strength) is done on the other side.  If > > it were up to me, > > I'd > > >   say to > > >   >   follow his directions exactly, even if > > you have to special > > order > > >   the > > >   >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a > > boat with 7024 and > > 6013 > > >   >   unless you want it to break along those > > welds when you are > > out on > > >   the > > >   >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can > > back it up with > > >   information > > >   >   from text books and highly experienced welders. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   Brian > > >   >   >     -----Original Message----- > > >   >   >     From: edward_stoneuk > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > >   >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM > > >   >   >     To: origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     Brian and Gary, > > >   >   >     Thanks for your advice. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical > > rep about the welding > > rods > > >   and > > >   >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 > > that Brent recommended > > in > > >   his > > >   >   mail. > > >   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC > > version of 6010. > > >   Thyssen > > >   >   is a > > >   >   >     German company where they tend to > > use only DC welders; > > so > > >   that > > >   >   is why > > >   >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither > > of the two > > suppliers > > >   that I > > >   >   use, > > >   >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one > > Thyssen, keep 6010 > > rods > > >   in > > >   >   stock. > > >   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods > > so I guess they > > don't > > >   have > > >   >   >     any pipeline welding customers or > > customers that weld > > >   mostly > > >   >   from one > > >   >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry > > and not re-dried so I > > >   guess > > >   >   unless > > >   >   >     you need deep penetration then a > > 6013 rod is easier to > > look > > >   >   after. > > >   >   >     My understanding of the AWS > > numbering system is that > > the > > >   first > > >   >   two > > >   >   >     numbers refer to the tensile > > strength, e.g. a 60** rod > > has > > >   a > > >   >   tensile > > >   >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the > > third number shows the > > >   welding > > >   >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any > > position, **2* equals > > flat > > >   and > > >   >   the > > >   >   >     last number I cannot remember what > > it means.  The 7024 > > rod > > >   is > > >   >   >     therefore, if I have got this > > right, a 70,000 psi rod > > >   suitable > > >   >   for > > >   >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron > > powder in the coating, > > >   which > > >   >   gives > > >   >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on > > my project was > > caused by > > >   the > > >   >   fact > > >   >   >     that the weld metal was thinner > > than the plate and when > > it > > >   was > > >   >   bent > > >   >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld > > and it cracked. > > The > > >   plate > > >   >   was > > >   >   >     bent as the side was pulled > > together and this is before > > the > > >   >   other > > >   >   >     side of the join is welded.  This > > would be a good > > reason > > >   for > > >   >   using a > > >   >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is > > stronger and lays down > > plenty > > >   of > > >   >   steel. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds > > a bit more > > >   knowledgeable > > >   >   than > > >   >   >     mine at a local technical college > > evening classes last > > >   winter. > > >   >   When > > >   >   >     I asked him about the properties of > > the different rods > > he > > >   >   >     replied "Well some welders like to > > use one sort and some > > >   >   >     another". > > >   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I > > was expecting. > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     Regards, > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     Ted Stone > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian > > Dixon" <briand@d...> > > wrote: > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info. > > I had forgotten that > > my > > >   >   instructor > > >   >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with > > 6010/7018 is > > common. > > >   I'll > > >   >   ask him > > >   >   >     some > > >   >   >     > more about that to get his > > feedback...he worked in > > >   industry > > >   >   for > > >   >   >     about 20 > > >   >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years > > as a teacher and has > > >   seen > > >   >   over > > >   >   >     3000 of > > >   >   >     > his students become > > certified..impressive.  He's full > > of > > >   info > > >   >   and > > >   >   >     advice > > >   >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do > > it.  I look for him > > in > > >   >   particular > > >   >   >     when > > >   >   >     > I sign up for classes. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one > > fellow's, Ed I think, > > >   welding > > >   >   supply > > >   >   >     shop > > >   >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd > > think 6010/6011 and > > 7018 > > >   would > > >   >   be the > > >   >   >     > staples of the industry and no > > welding shop should be > > >   without > > >   >   the > > >   >   >     full > > >   >   >     > set... > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > >   >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas > > [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Brian, > > >   >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. > > A few minor > > additions. > > >   Pipe > > >   >   welders > > >   >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass > > then cap it with 7018 > > to > > >   >   eliminate > > >   >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in > > a plastics plant > > where > > >   we > > >   >   had lots > > >   >   >     of > > >   >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 > > degrees Fahrenheit. > > >   7018 > > >   >   should be > > >   >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If > > the coating picks up > > >   moisture > > >   >   it > > >   >   >     welds > > >   >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice > > bead in the vertical > > >   position > > >   >   but the > > >   >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes > > skill to control. > > 6013 is > > >   >   popular > > >   >   >     for > > >   >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding > > in the greenhouse > > >   industry, > > >   >   but it > > >   >   >     sure > > >   >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > ----- Original Message ----- > > >   >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > > >   >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, > > but am interested > > in > > >   them > > >   >   since > > >   >   >     I'm in > > >   >   >     > general interested in building > > metal boats.  I'm in > > the > > >   >   middle of > > >   >   >     > welding classes and working > > towards "all steel, all > > >   >   thicknesses, all > > >   >   >     > positions" certification.  Your > > note below raises > > several > > >   >   issues > > >   >   >     that > > >   >   >     > we've been covering in class, so > > I'll tell you what > > my > > >   book > > >   >   and > > >   >   >     teacher > > >   >   >     > have been saying.  Those with > > more practical > > experience > > >   can > > >   >   >     add/subtract > > >   >   >     > from what I'll say: > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great > > stuff) is very easy to > > >   use, > > >   >   but does > > >   >   >     not > > >   >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back > > side tack welding > > and > > >   >   applications > > >   >   >     > where high strength is not needed. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep > > penetrating_ fast-freeze > > >   electrodes > > >   >   that > > >   >   >     work > > >   >   >     > well for overhead and vertical > > welds in addition to > > the > > >   other > > >   >   weld > > >   >   >     > positions.  Works well for > > unbeveled joints due to > > >   >   their 'digging' > > >   >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher > > skill.  Ideal for > > odd- > > >   >   position > > >   >   >     welding > > >   >   >     > where high strength is required. > > Downside is that > > these > > >   >   electrodes > > >   >   >     > spatter more. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow > > penetrating_ fill-freeze > > electrode > > >   >   that is > > >   >   >     good > > >   >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good > > for beveled joint > > >   welding. > > >   >   This > > >   >   >     > electrode is a general purpose > > electrode for > > production > > >   >   operation > > >   >   >     but is > > >   >   >     > not for high strength applications. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > For high strength applications, > > my instructor > > recommends > > >   7018 > > >   >   for > > >   >   >     flat > > >   >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, > > but 6010 or 6011 for > > >   vertical > > >   >   and > > >   >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 > > are fine if you don't > > need > > >   the > > >   >   high > > >   >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, > > rust, galvanizing, or > > are > > >   >   welding > > >   >   >     pipes, > > >   >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires > > clean metal, otherwise > > you > > >   can > > >   >   get > > >   >   >     > porosity. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, > > could be several > > >   problems. > > >   >   >     Porosity > > >   >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric > > contamination (a breeze > > >   where > > >   >   you were > > >   >   >     > welding, welding technique, > > contamination due to > > humidity > > >   or > > >   >   age > > >   >   >     etc.) > > >   >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak > > bead that cracks > > >   >   longitudinally. > > >   >   >     Lifting > > >   >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld > > too quickly (loss of > > >   >   shielding) can > > >   >   >     > start a crater crack which > > propagates.  Mismatch of > > rod > > >   to > > >   >   base > > >   >   >     metal > > >   >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high > > stress on a 6013 > > weld, > > >   the > > >   >   crack > > >   >   >     may > > >   >   >     > have started at the > > filler-to-base metal interface > > >   because > > >   >   6013 > > >   >   >     doesn't > > >   >   >     > have as deep a penetration as > > 6011 for example.  A > > >   >   combination of > > >   >   >     the > > >   >   >     > above...you'll have to examine > > your welds to figure > > out > > >   which > > >   >   issue > > >   >   >     (s) > > >   >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm > > not too far off > > >   here...just > > >   >   >     passing on > > >   >   >     > class notes really, because I > > don't have a helluva > > lot of > > >   >   welding > > >   >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else > > might provide a more > > >   pragmatic > > >   >   >     answer, but > > >   >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told > > anyway...some > > >   things > > >   >   to > > >   >   >     think > > >   >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a > > simple topic and does > > >   require > > >   >   a > > >   >   >     > reasonably high level of > > expertise to get it right. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > >   >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Brent, > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > With regard to your > > recommendation of 6011 and 7024 > > >   rods. > > >   >   What > > >   >   >     > properties are you particularly > > interested in?  The > > >   reason I > > >   >   ask is > > >   >   >     > because my usual supplier sells > > Thyssen rods and they > > >   don't > > >   >   do 6011 > > >   >   >     > although they have five types of > > 6013 and two of 7024 > > >   amongst > > >   >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency > > DC welder.  I welded > > the > > >   >   chine > > >   >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I > > pulled the bottom > > sheets > > >   >   together, > > >   >   >     > which causes the chine angle to > > change, some of the > > >   existing > > >   >   welds > > >   >   >     in > > >   >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down > > the centre.  It is > > no > > >   >   problem to > > >   >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I > > would like to do it > > >   right > > >   >   this > > >   >   >     > time.  The other thing is that > > the transverse join > > >   overlaps > > >   >   which > > >   >   >     is > > >   >   >     > obviously better than not meeting > > and understandable > > >   given > > >   >   usual > > >   >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have > > any advice on > > getting a > > >   >   decent fit > > >   >   >     > other than offering it up and > > trimming off? > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Regards, > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Ted Stone > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > > subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > > >   of > > >   >   Service > > >   >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > > subject to the Yahoo! > > >   >   >     > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > >   >   >     > > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > > subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > > >   of > > >   >   Service > > >   >   >     > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >     To Unsubscribe, send a blank > > message to: origamiboats- > > >   >   unsubscribe@y... > > >   >   > > > >   >   >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is > > subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of > > >   >   Service. > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > >   >   >               ADVERTISEMENT > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@y... > > >   >   >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message > > to: origamiboats- > > >   >   unsubscribe@y... > > >   >   > > > >   >   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject > > to the Yahoo! 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958|958|2002-07-06 14:20:26|atomhorizon|Welding rods|Hello folks.  I'm new to the group here and new to groups period,  hence I wasn't quite sure how to properly respond to the discussion  regarding welding rods that I've been reading for the last 15  minutes.  I've been working as a structural welder in a medium sized  fab shop for the last few years and I have been interested in steel  boat building for a few years also.  I am currently enrolled in  school in Washington state learning high pressure pipe and tube  welding, lots and lots of 6010 and 7018 welding.  In the shops where I have worked, of course, MIG was the predominant  procedure, stick being used usually only in the field, but when we  got prints for jobs that required stick welding, there was always a  specification pertaining to what rods were to be used.  It was always  7018.  My understanding is that 70,000 lbs tensile strength is the  standard for structural filler metal.  80,000 (8018 or 8010 rod)  would make the weld metal stronger than the parent metal, and 60,000  (6010, 11, 12 or 13) would make the joint weaker than the parent  metal.  6010 rod was like a big no-no on the job site, for structural  application, as far as that goes.  7024 was also specifically  mentioned in the prints NOT to be used for structural applications, I  think (and I could be wrong here) because of embrittlement in the  weld, and I don't know what would be the cause of that.  So basically  the industry standard is 7018 for anything structural, which would  seem to include boat hulls.  I've never used 6013 in a shop or even  SEEN it in a shop, we used to call it 'farmer rod', sheet metal rod,  but I can't see any reason to use it over 7018.  I've also never seen  7014 used in a shop for structural welding, I think 7014 is just a  7024 rod with a thinner flux, hence the all position designation of  the 7014.  It's sure cool to see a discussion about all of this that is so  active and interesting.  I've got the weekend off and the beach is  beckoning.....  Adam|
959|958|2002-07-06 16:10:55|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding rods|More good info!  Thanks!  I'm saving this one as yet another set of hints and tidbits for those like me (new, but in class and learning). My only comment is on the statement about 7024 and embrittlement.  Since it's a shallow penetrator, I doubt there is a lot of heat put into the base metal, the normal reason for loss of ductility and an increase in embrittlement.  I suspect instead that the welds break at the weld-to-base metal interface from the shallow penetration.  That's my guess anyway.  Someone may have seen the break in that area and assumed it was the base metal that gave up the ghost and it was from embrittlement.   Question: I'm just starting MIG welding.  Can you get wire in all of these filler metal types?  For example, does 601x and 7018 (etc) come in wire rolls too?  I'm sure it must, but since the coating on the stick is an important part of the equation, it's got me wondering...   Brian  -----Original Message----- From: atomhorizon [mailto:atomhorizon@...]  Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 11:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Welding rods   Hello folks.  I'm new to the group here and new to groups period,  hence I wasn't quite sure how to properly respond to the discussion  regarding welding rods that I've been reading for the last 15  minutes.  I've been working as a structural welder in a medium sized  fab shop for the last few years and I have been interested in steel  boat building for a few years also.  I am currently enrolled in  school in Washington state learning high pressure pipe and tube  welding, lots and lots of 6010 and 7018 welding.  In the shops where I have worked, of course, MIG was the predominant  procedure, stick being used usually only in the field, but when we  got prints for jobs that required stick welding, there was always a  specification pertaining to what rods were to be used.  It was always  7018.  My understanding is that 70,000 lbs tensile strength is the  standard for structural filler metal.  80,000 (8018 or 8010 rod)  would make the weld metal stronger than the parent metal, and 60,000  (6010, 11, 12 or 13) would make the joint weaker than the parent  metal.  6010 rod was like a big no-no on the job site, for structural  application, as far as that goes.  7024 was also specifically  mentioned in the prints NOT to be used for structural applications, I  think (and I could be wrong here) because of embrittlement in the  weld, and I don't know what would be the cause of that.  So basically  the industry standard is 7018 for anything structural, which would  seem to include boat hulls.  I've never used 6013 in a shop or even  SEEN it in a shop, we used to call it 'farmer rod', sheet metal rod,  but I can't see any reason to use it over 7018.  I've also never seen  7014 used in a shop for structural welding, I think 7014 is just a  7024 rod with a thinner flux, hence the all position designation of  the 7014.  It's sure cool to see a discussion about all of this that is so  active and interesting.  I've got the weekend off and the beach is  beckoning.....  Adam   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
960|958|2002-07-06 17:41:16|lon wells|Welding rods problem @ other end of the stinger|Dear Cliff Claven The goal is to just get the boat in the water and have a safe and fun time. The fault in most defective welds is not the filler metal selected but the other end of the stinger.  I know you all want to be welding engineers when you grow up.  But this is not a nuclear submarine pressure hull that is built of high strength metal but a pleasure craft made with mild steel which has less tensile strength  than any of the filler metals.                              Lon    __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com|
961|961|2002-07-06 18:47:46|Alex & Kim Christie|rod question|Well, I think the whole welding rod question is definitely worth the air-time for those of us who are fresh into the welding world, and of course this is what this forum is for.  There are  a few times, such as having my hull lifted by a crane, where I'd want to make sure that the lifting eye is properly welded with the right rod!  A good point made by Lon, as well as someone in an earlier post, that the skill of the welder has as much or more to do with the quality of the weld than the type of rod alone.  An interesting note about pressure vessel welding from a friend who has welded on submarines in the US in the past:  they found slag inclusions in many of the weld seams they opened, among other types of problems.  Kind of scary, but it certainly shows that even imperfect welds appear to hold out under many atomospheres of pressure.  Somehow I doubt the crew would have been happy knowing what those seams looked like...  As an on-surface vessel, I agree that in comparison, the sailboat hull doesn't have to put up with much pressure.  But we all sleep better in our bunks knowing we've done those seams with the best rods for the job.  The journey of figuring all this stuff out while we build our boats is part of the fun.  Alex    ----- Original Message ----- From: lon wells <lononriver@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 2:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Welding rods problem @ other end of the stinger   > Dear Cliff Claven > The goal is to just get the boat in the water and have > a safe and fun time. The fault in most defective welds > is not the filler metal selected but the other end of > the stinger.  I know you all want to be welding > engineers when you grow up.  But this is not a nuclear > submarine pressure hull that is built of high strength > metal but a pleasure craft made with mild steel which > has less tensile strength  than any of the filler > metals. >                             Lon > |
962|962|2002-07-07 15:33:08|atomhorizon|Brian's MIG question|Brian -  I'm not as up on my MIG filler wires as I should be, but here's what  I can share with you.  If you are MIG welding with what is known as 'hard wire', that is  just your basic wire (usually with a thin copper coating) it is  commonly 70,000 lb tensile strength wire.  I don't think I've ever  seen 60,000 tensile wire out there and in the shops I've worked in it  was always 70k.  A welding process that is quite common in structural  prefab work is called FCAW-G, that is Flux Cored Arc Welding - Gas  shielded, also called Dual Shield or Outershield wire.  It's got flux  inside of the wire and also uses a gas shielding like MIG.  It  typically penetrates alot deeper than hardwire, and therefore is  innapropriate for sheetmetal work or any really thin stuff.  I don't  know how it would be for welding up a hull, I've wondered about it.   It not only burns in deeper and hotter, but it seems to be ALOT  more  ductile than hardwire, which can be handy for tacking up, etc.   Hardwire MIG doesn't burn in very deep (I apologize if I'm covering  redundant material here) and doesn't seem to leave a very ductile  weld, but it's apparently commonly used in hull construction - I  would imagine that the lack of heat input is beneficial as far as  warpage is concerned.  The shielding gas used affects this also, CO2  doesn't burn in very hot (I've heard it called a 'cold' gas) and it  can be very spattery - lots of cleanup afterward.  A CO2/Argon mix  with hardwire is alot nicer to weld with, burning in better and with  much less spatter and cleanup.  It's also more expensive.  Again, sorry if this is too technical or geeky.  I hope this info  helps in your MIG research.  Adam|
963|962|2002-07-08 14:37:16|richytill|Re: Brian's MIG question|At the risk of belabouring this point, I do believe it is of value to  the metal boat builder to review the reason for the use of 60XX  series rods.  Going back to the point about 7018 on structural  steel.  Yes it is superior on structural steel, pressure vessels  etc..  The reason we use 60XX series rods on hull of marine vessels  is not about strength--this is an attmpt to reduce the effect of  electrolysis.  The metal next to a 7018 weld will corode more  rapidly.  An exception to this practice is when we weld with 7018 on  the bow of an ice breaker (some boom boats and sidewinders are welded  with 7018 too).  This is heave plate where we can afford to loose a  fair amount of metal without compromise.  The area of deficit in the  HAZ is built up with new weld periodically to offset the effect of  electolysis.  Probably not something you would want to do on your own  boat after it has been painted and foamed.  So there is a valid  reason for using 6011--6010.  It is worth noting that ship  repair/construction is often carried out in damp and less than ideal  conditions for the use of low hydrogen (7018) electrodes.  Lincoln  has a give away pamphlet "Weldirectory" that will give you the MIG  wire specs and one that will give you the rod specs.   rt        --- In origamiboats@y..., "atomhorizon" <atomhorizon@y...> wrote: > Brian - >  > I'm not as up on my MIG filler wires as I should be, but here's  what  > I can share with you. >  > If you are MIG welding with what is known as 'hard wire', that is  > just your basic wire (usually with a thin copper coating) it is  > commonly 70,000 lb tensile strength wire.  I don't think I've ever  > seen 60,000 tensile wire out there and in the shops I've worked in  it  > was always 70k.  A welding process that is quite common in  structural  > prefab work is called FCAW-G, that is Flux Cored Arc Welding - Gas  > shielded, also called Dual Shield or Outershield wire.  It's got  flux  > inside of the wire and also uses a gas shielding like MIG.  It  > typically penetrates alot deeper than hardwire, and therefore is  > innapropriate for sheetmetal work or any really thin stuff.  I  don't  > know how it would be for welding up a hull, I've wondered about  it.   > It not only burns in deeper and hotter, but it seems to be ALOT   more  > ductile than hardwire, which can be handy for tacking up, etc.   > Hardwire MIG doesn't burn in very deep (I apologize if I'm covering  > redundant material here) and doesn't seem to leave a very ductile  > weld, but it's apparently commonly used in hull construction - I  > would imagine that the lack of heat input is beneficial as far as  > warpage is concerned.  The shielding gas used affects this also,  CO2  > doesn't burn in very hot (I've heard it called a 'cold' gas) and it  > can be very spattery - lots of cleanup afterward.  A CO2/Argon mix  > with hardwire is alot nicer to weld with, burning in better and  with  > much less spatter and cleanup.  It's also more expensive. >  > Again, sorry if this is too technical or geeky.  I hope this info  > helps in your MIG research. >  > Adam |
964|962|2002-07-08 20:03:08|atomhorizon|Re: Brian's MIG question|Thank you for such an informed and concise post.  Given the electrolysis consideration, what rod(s) would you suggest  for general hull fabrication??  6010/11??  What about MIG wires?  I'd  imagine the same problem would exist in terms of electrolysis with  MIG wire, or is that assumption true??  Have you ever had problems  with hydrogen embrittlement?  Is there any way that you know of to  offset that problem or compensate for it without needing to use a  7018 rod, or is it not really so much of a problem?  Thank you  Adam     --- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill" <tillrc@h...> wrote: > At the risk of belabouring this point, I do believe it is of value  to  > the metal boat builder to review the reason for the use of 60XX  > series rods.  Going back to the point about 7018 on structural  > steel.  Yes it is superior on structural steel, pressure vessels  > etc..  The reason we use 60XX series rods on hull of marine vessels  > is not about strength--this is an attmpt to reduce the effect of  > electrolysis.  The metal next to a 7018 weld will corode more  > rapidly.  An exception to this practice is when we weld with 7018  on  > the bow of an ice breaker (some boom boats and sidewinders are  welded  > with 7018 too).  This is heave plate where we can afford to loose a  > fair amount of metal without compromise.  The area of deficit in  the  > HAZ is built up with new weld periodically to offset the effect of  > electolysis.  Probably not something you would want to do on your  own  > boat after it has been painted and foamed.  So there is a valid  > reason for using 6011--6010.  It is worth noting that ship  > repair/construction is often carried out in damp and less than  ideal  > conditions for the use of low hydrogen (7018) electrodes.  Lincoln  > has a give away pamphlet "Weldirectory" that will give you the MIG  > wire specs and one that will give you the rod specs.   rt    >  >  >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "atomhorizon" <atomhorizon@y...> wrote: > > Brian - > >  > > I'm not as up on my MIG filler wires as I should be, but here's  > what  > > I can share with you. > >  > > If you are MIG welding with what is known as 'hard wire', that is  > > just your basic wire (usually with a thin copper coating) it is  > > commonly 70,000 lb tensile strength wire.  I don't think I've  ever  > > seen 60,000 tensile wire out there and in the shops I've worked  in  > it  > > was always 70k.  A welding process that is quite common in  > structural  > > prefab work is called FCAW-G, that is Flux Cored Arc Welding -  Gas  > > shielded, also called Dual Shield or Outershield wire.  It's got  > flux  > > inside of the wire and also uses a gas shielding like MIG.  It  > > typically penetrates alot deeper than hardwire, and therefore is  > > innapropriate for sheetmetal work or any really thin stuff.  I  > don't  > > know how it would be for welding up a hull, I've wondered about  > it.   > > It not only burns in deeper and hotter, but it seems to be ALOT   > more  > > ductile than hardwire, which can be handy for tacking up, etc.   > > Hardwire MIG doesn't burn in very deep (I apologize if I'm  covering  > > redundant material here) and doesn't seem to leave a very ductile  > > weld, but it's apparently commonly used in hull construction - I  > > would imagine that the lack of heat input is beneficial as far as  > > warpage is concerned.  The shielding gas used affects this also,  > CO2  > > doesn't burn in very hot (I've heard it called a 'cold' gas) and  it  > > can be very spattery - lots of cleanup afterward.  A CO2/Argon  mix  > > with hardwire is alot nicer to weld with, burning in better and  > with  > > much less spatter and cleanup.  It's also more expensive. > >  > > Again, sorry if this is too technical or geeky.  I hope this info  > > helps in your MIG research. > >  > > Adam |
965|938|2002-07-09 01:11:08|The Bumby's|Re: Welding Rods|I don't know why I'm receiving e-mail on the welding rods but I'm finding it interesting!  There is a book called "Superior Alloys for Maintenance and Repair" by MG INDUSTRIES. I bought mine at a local welding shop and have found it very helpful in making decisions  about what rod to use and what settings for each rod.  There is also a phone number; 800-558-8524, which can be used to receive expert help for most any welding concern.  I hope this helps and thanks for the tips from the different people.  Ernest                :^)    ----- Original Message -----    From: edward_stoneuk    To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com    Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:29 PM   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods     Brian and Gary,   Thanks for your advice.    I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods and    especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his mail.     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.  Thyssen is a    German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is why    they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers that I use,    one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock.     They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't have   any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly from one    side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I guess unless    you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look after.      My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the first two    numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile    strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding    positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and the    last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is    therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable for    flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating, which gives    weld metal recovery greater than 100%.    On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the fact    that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was bent    the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate was    bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the other    side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason for using a    rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of steel.    Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable than    mine at a local technical college evening classes last winter.  When    I asked him about the properties of the different rods he    replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some   another".     Probably true but not the answer I was expecting.    Regards,    Ted Stone     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote:   >     > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my instructor   > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask him    some   > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for    about 20   > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over    3000 of   > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info and    advice   > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in particular    when   > I sign up for classes.   >     > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding supply    shop   > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the   > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without the    full   > set...   >     > Brian   >    > -----Original Message-----   > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]    > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM   > To: origamiboats@y...   > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods   >    >    > Brian,   > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe welders   > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate   > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had lots    of   > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should be   > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture it    welds   > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position but the   > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is popular    for   > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it    sure   > doesn't make very strong welds.   >     > Gary H. Lucas   >    > ----- Original Message -----    > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon    > To: origamiboats@y...    > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM   > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods   >    > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since    I'm in   > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle of   > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses, all   > positions" certification.  Your note below raises several issues    that   > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and    teacher   > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can    add/subtract   > from what I'll say:   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but does    not   > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and applications   > where high strength is not needed.   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that    work   > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other weld   > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging'   > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position    welding   > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these electrodes   > spatter more.   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is    good   > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.  This   > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production operation    but is   > not for high strength applications.   >     > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for    flat   > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and   > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high   > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding    pipes,   > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get   > porosity.   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.     Porosity   > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you were   > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age    etc.)   > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.     Lifting   > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding) can   > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base    metal   > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack    may   > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013    doesn't   > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination of    the   > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which issue   (s)   > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just    passing on   > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of welding   > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic    answer, but   > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to    think   > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require a   > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right.   >     > Brian   >     >     >    > -----Original Message-----   > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]    > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM   > To: origamiboats@y...   > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods   >    >    > Brent,   >    > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What    > properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I ask is    > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011    > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst    > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine    > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets together,    > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds    in    > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem to    > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this    > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which    is    > obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual    > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a decent fit    > other than offering it up and trimming off?   >    > Regards,   >    > Ted Stone   >    >    > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    >    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .    >    >    >    > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    >    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.    >    >    >    > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y...   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...    >    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .     To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
966|938|2002-07-10 19:55:44|richytill|Re: Welding Rods|Ted, it seems you may be welding in the UK.  If this is the case and  you wish to access 6010 0r 6011 electrodes they were avilable and  probably still are.  Airco may market them through Murex.  I worked  on gas pipelines in the UK for a while and we used Lincoln Fleetweld  5, Fleetweld 35 (6011) along with the more conventional downhill pipe  rods.  I imagine 5P+ (improved 6010) is available too.  The  pipeliners often dump 44lbs cans of these rods if the containers are  dented, half used  or suspected of being slightly damp.  ESAB markets  in the UK and do produce 60XX series rods.  ESAB (Sweden) reportedly  welded the fisrt all welded steel boat back in the day when they  created the first practical coated electrodes.  Now I digress.  All  the best finding the right rod.  rt       --- In origamiboats@y..., "The Bumby's" <bumby@c...> wrote: > I don't know why I'm receiving e-mail on the welding rods but I'm  finding it interesting! >  > There is a book called "Superior Alloys for Maintenance and Repair"  by MG INDUSTRIES. > I bought mine at a local welding shop and have found it very  helpful in making decisions  > about what rod to use and what settings for each rod.  There is  also a phone number; > 800-558-8524, which can be used to receive expert help for most any  welding concern. >  > I hope this helps and thanks for the tips from the different people. >  > Ernest                :^) >   ----- Original Message -----  >   From: edward_stoneuk  >   To: origamiboats@y...  >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:29 PM >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  >   Brian and Gary, >   Thanks for your advice. >  >   I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods and  >   especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his  mail.   >   The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.  Thyssen is  a  >   German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is  why  >   they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers that I  use,  >   one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in  stock.   >   They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't have >   any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly from  one  >   side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I guess  unless  >   you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look  after.    >   My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the first  two  >   numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a  tensile  >   strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding  >   positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and  the  >   last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is  >   therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable  for  >   flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating, which  gives  >   weld metal recovery greater than 100%. >  >   On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the  fact  >   that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was  bent  >   the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate  was  >   bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the other  >   side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason for  using a  >   rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of  steel. >  >   Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable than  >   mine at a local technical college evening classes last winter.   When  >   I asked him about the properties of the different rods he  >   replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some >   another".   >   Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. >  >   Regards, >  >   Ted Stone >  >  >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: >   >   >   > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my  instructor >   > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll ask  him  >   some >   > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for  >   about 20 >   > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over  >   3000 of >   > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info  and  >   advice >   > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in  particular  >   when >   > I sign up for classes. >   >   >   > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding  supply  >   shop >   > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be  the >   > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without  the  >   full >   > set... >   >   >   > Brian >   >  >   > -----Original Message----- >   > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  >   > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM >   > To: origamiboats@y... >   > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >  >   >  >   > Brian, >   > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe  welders >   > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate >   > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had  lots  >   of >   > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018  should be >   > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture it  >   welds >   > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position  but the >   > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is  popular  >   for >   > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but  it  >   sure >   > doesn't make very strong welds. >   >   >   > Gary H. Lucas >   >  >   > ----- Original Message -----  >   > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  >   > To: origamiboats@y...  >   > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM >   > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >  >   > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them  since  >   I'm in >   > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle  of >   > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  thicknesses, all >   > positions" certification.  Your note below raises several  issues  >   that >   > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and  >   teacher >   > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can  >   add/subtract >   > from what I'll say: >   >   >   >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but  does  >   not >   > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and  applications >   > where high strength is not needed. >   >   >   >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes  that  >   work >   > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other  weld >   > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  their 'digging' >   > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for odd-position  >   welding >   > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these  electrodes >   > spatter more. >   >   >   >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that  is  >   good >   > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.  This >   > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production  operation  >   but is >   > not for high strength applications. >   >   >   > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018  for  >   flat >   > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical  and >   > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the  high >   > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding  >   pipes, >   > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get >   > porosity. >   >   >   > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.   >   Porosity >   > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you  were >   > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or  age  >   etc.) >   > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.   >   Lifting >   > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  shielding) can >   > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to base  >   metal >   > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the  crack  >   may >   > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013  >   doesn't >   > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination  of  >   the >   > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which  issue >   (s) >   > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just  >   passing on >   > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of  welding >   > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic  >   answer, but >   > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things  to  >   think >   > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require a >   > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. >   >   >   > Brian >   >   >   >   >   >  >   > -----Original Message----- >   > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  >   > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM >   > To: origamiboats@y... >   > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods >   >  >   >  >   > Brent, >   >  >   > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.  What  >   > properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I  ask is  >   > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do  6011  >   > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst  >   > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine  >   > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets  together,  >   > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing  welds  >   in  >   > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no problem  to  >   > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this  >   > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps  which  >   is  >   > obviously better than not meeting and understandable given  usual  >   > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a decent  fit  >   > other than offering it up and trimming off? >   >  >   > Regards, >   >  >   > Ted Stone >   >  >   >  >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >  >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service >   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  >   >  >   >  >   >  >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >  >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.  >   >  >   >  >   >  >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  >   >  >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service >   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . >  >  >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y...  >  >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  Service.  >  >  >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
967|938|2002-07-10 23:52:34|brentswain38|Re: Welding Rods|Ted    It's not uncommon for the chine welds to crack as you are pulling  the hull together as they hinge a long way and change their angle  greatly as the hull is pulled together. The cure is to climb outside  the hull as soon as the chine begins to come off the ground and put 4  inch long  welds with 6011 on the outside the chine. That way any  change in angle pulls away from the welds rather than toward them.   There is far less metal in the weld than in the plate with welding  on the inside only and any welding rod will tend to crack in this  situation.   This has no bearing on the adequacy of the weld strength in the  finished boat. The first 36 footer I built in 1981 , welded entirely  with 6011 and 7024 survived 16 days pounding on a lee shore in 12  foot surf on the west coast of mexico with no major structural  dammage , and was pulled off through 12 foot surf with no dammage.   Another 36 survived pounding accross 300 yards of Fijian coral reef  and was pulled off by a large tug with no major dammage, then it  survived a collision with a freighter in Gibralter without serious  structural dammage, no welds failed . It was welded entirely with  6011 and 7024.   Before we begin to worry about weld strength we should consider how  many boats have done circumnavigations while held together by copper  fastenings in red cedar every 6 inches.   The reason I use 7024 is because it's a lot faster and easier to  use than 7018 and it's a lot easier to screw up a weld with 7018. the  slag on 7018 is a lot harder to remove,7024 is dwefinitly a flat  welding rod only While doing structural steel work they insisted I use 7018, This was  before 7018n was available in ac. They gave me cold rods and an ac  machine to use. When I cut the welds open they were full of bubbles  and looked like an aero bar inside, but because the right number was  on the rod they were happy.   When I weld the lugs on for pulling the hull together I usually let  the owner weld them on with 7024. It's often the first time the've  ever tried welding. When they are no longer needed I give them a  sledge hammer and let them try to break the welds . When they are  totally exhausted and the lugs have finally broken , about a half an  inch up above the weld,after being bent back and forth many times I  ask them if they are still worried about weld strength. Somehow they  never are.   6011 is ac rod, 6010 is dc. They are the only rod which will blow  the slag right out of the puddle which is why until recently they are  the only rods that lloyds would approve of.The are extremely  forgivving with regard to conditions and the shape they are in.They  penetrate far better than the alternatives.   As any seams should be welded on one side, then all slag ground out  from the otherside before the outside weld is put on, penetration is  not that great an issue.   If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a 3/16th inch plate with  a single pass of 1/8th inch 7024 , then try to break it with a  hammer, the 1/8th will break well away from the weld, as there is  more metal in the weld than in the 1/8th inch  plate.                    I prefer to have the transevese seam  overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parrallel, then tack  the centreline end  of the overlap. Then I cut off the overlap, grind  a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together, then cut  the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the  transeverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges of  scrap plate accross the seam every foot or so ,to keep it straight  while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces of  angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been fully  welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them  finished.          Brent Swain         -- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill" <tillrc@h...> wrote:  > The Lincoln Electric Company has published "New Lessons in ARC  > WELDING" since 1940.  There was a 1999 Edition.  Barry Hammel in  > Vancouver BC stocks them as would most Lincoln distributors.  The  > larger "Proceedures Handbook" costs more and is fairly in depth.  > Typically 7024 is intended for plate over 3/16" and is described as  > shallow penetration--7014 is intended for material between sheet  > metal and heavier plate (ie. 10ga) and is designated as medium  > penetration.  6013 is the sheet metal rod.  That said, you can  > increase the penetration of 7024 by cranking up the heat and   changing   > the rod angle or; reduce the penetration of 6010/11 by reducing   heat   > etc. Back to control of the weld pool.  rt   >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: > > Where do all of you get your information?  The AWS Welding   Handbook?  > > Hope so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to rely on my > > textbook (Welding Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller).  In my text, 7014   is  > > listed as "low penetration, high speed, fill-freeze".  The text   is   > not > > clear, but the description for 6013 differs slightly for  > penetration and > > says "shallow penetration."  Not sure what the difference is   between  > > "low" and "shallow"...any of you know?  My instructor hasn't  > mentioned > > 7014, but I'll ask him and pose a few questions about steel boat > > building.  Hmmm...I really appreciate all the welding rod  > discussion... > >   > > Brian > >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sanderse [mailto:sanderse@p...]  > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:19 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >  > >  > > Agreed.  I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems.  9i > > used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014 on > > anything less than 3/16th. > >  > >  > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] > > > Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > > There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the number > > > you will see this > > > to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs > > > tensile.  Can be used > > > AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate > > > is fair to good, > > > vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really well: > > > it does most things > > > fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor > > > environment better than- > > > say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with > > > no problems.  Used > > > it on the inside of the chine because I had > > > plenty of it on hand and > > > it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and > > > equivilent filler metal) > > > because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and > > > can handle the > > > outdoor environment.  I have welded in Canada, > > > the UK and the US and > > > now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal > > > program.  Given > > > appropriate plate set up, the most common > > > structural defects in > > > welding are not linked to the type of rod or > > > filler material but to > > > the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics > > > and speed of travel > > > of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding with > > > integrity is control > > > of the weld pool.  rt > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look > > > how nice those welds > > > are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you > > > didn't know that > > > penetration makes a big difference in weld > > > strength you'd say any of > > > these rods are okay. > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   From: edward_stoneuk > > > >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM > > > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > > > > >   Gary, > > > > > > > >   Thanks for the info. > > > > > > > >   I guess that is what might be expected with > > > using a 7024 rod > > > >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for > > > flat / horizontal use > > > >   only? > > > > > > > >   Regards, > > > >   Ted Stone > > > > > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > >   > Ted, > > > >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds > > > with two different > > > rods > > > >   you probably would get two very similar > > > strength welds.  In the > > > real > > > >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod > > > with particular > > > >   properties will often give you a better weld. > > >  Years ago I had a > > > >   young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets > > > to angle iron posts > > > >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds > > > LOOKED very nice.  I > > > told > > > >   him they were no good and he protested.  I > > > struck the bracket > > > hard > > > >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! > > > >   > > > > >   > Earlier we were talking about mig welding. > > > I cautioned > > > everyone > > > >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for > > > welding anything but > > > >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire > > > because of greater > > > >   penetration.  Every time I have said this I > > > get tons of flack > > > about > > > >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have > > > been having mild > > > steel > > > >   parts hot dip galvanized for many years. > > > EVERY time someone uses > > > >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld > > > failures from lack of > > > >   penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when > > > you weld thousands > > > of > > > >   parts that hang machinery over peoples heads > > > how many bad welds > > > are > > > >   acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to > > > near zero simply by > > > >   insisting in writing on our prints that no > > > parts would be > > > accepted if > > > >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding > > > with stick is no > > > >   different, use the rod that will give you the > > > best chance of > > > >   producing a good weld. > > > >   > > > > >   > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   >   From: edward_stoneuk > > > >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM > > > >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   >   Brian and Gary, > > > >   > > > > >   >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are > > > you saying that a > > > 60,000 > > > >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or > > > 6011 rod is stronger > > > >   than > > > >   >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to > > > the same thickness > > > given > > > >   >   that both welds  are full thickness welds > > > in fully prepared, > > > >   >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that > > > both weld metals have > > > the > > > >   same > > > >   >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be > > > stronger than a 7024 > > > weld > > > >   of > > > >   >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? > > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and > > > could get at least > > > two > > > >   >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered > > > what qualities Brent > > > was > > > >   >   looking for so that I could follow his > > > recommendations in > > > message > > > >   937 > > > >   >   as closely as possible.  Following yours > > > and others advice I > > > have > > > >   >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now > > > understand has similar > > > >   qualities to > > > >   >   6011 and will pick them up today together > > > with a packet of > > > 7024 > > > >   as > > > >   >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts > > > of 7024 rods and so > > > I > > > >   took > > > >   >   their technical reps advice on which to > > > choose and he > > > recommended > > > >   the > > > >   >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly > > > I think because > > > that is > > > >   the > > > >   >   one that the distributor keeps in stock. > > > The other rod has > > > 160% > > > >   weld > > > >   >   metal recovery.  Which one would you > > > recommend?  Who makes > > > the > > > >   7024 > > > >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery > > > is on that? > > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any > > > special favouritism > > > >   towards > > > >   >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't > > > even heard of them > > > but > > > >   we > > > >   >   used them on the welding course so its > > > probably a case of > > > better > > > >   the > > > >   >   devil you know) shows five different > > > types of 6013 rods, > > > three of > > > >   >   which include in their field of > > > application statements > > > >   shipbuilding, > > > >   >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it > > > is suitable for > > > >   shipbuilding > > > >   >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, > > > (whatever that > > > might > > > >   be). > > > >   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N > > > and their Phoenix Blau > > > 30 > > > >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of > > > their supplier.  I have > > > also > > > >   >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. > > > >   > > > > >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 > > > rods are all listed > > > as > > > >   >   pipeline rods which of course confirms > > > what you say Brian. > > > You > > > >   can > > > >   >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe > > > so you need good > > > >   >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a > > > ship or a tank you > > > can > > > >   mostly > > > >   >   get to the other side and vee out any > > > crud and weld to get a > > > full > > > >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep > > > penetrating rod will > > > tend > > > >   to > > > >   >   blow holes throught the plate and so a > > > mild penetration rod > > > or > > > >   for > > > >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make > > > life easier.  In the > > > >   case of > > > >   >   the origami boats where many of the > > > plates have to be > > > manipulated > > > >   >   before the finish weld is done on the > > > other side the first > > > weld > > > >   has > > > >   >   to strong enough to take that but a deep > > > penetrating rod will > > > >   tend to > > > >   >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this > > > first thick weld on > > > the > > > >   other > > > >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld > > > allows a deep > > > penetrating > > > >   rod to > > > >   >   be used, which copes better with a less > > > than perfect cleaning > > > out > > > >   of > > > >   >   the vee.  I think that is what you are > > > saying Brian.  Is the > > > >   above a > > > >   >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent > > > will give his views in > > > due > > > >   >   course. > > > >   > > > > >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but > > > writing things down and > > > >   feed > > > >   >   back from folks such as yourselves are > > > very useful in getting > > > >   things > > > >   >   straight in ones mind. > > > >   > > > > >   >   Regards, > > > >   >   Ted Stone > > > >   > > > > >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > <gary.lucas@v...> > > > wrote: > > > >   >   > MessageBrian, > > > >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of > > > interest.  I did a > > > >   repair on > > > >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made > > > from T1 steel.  I > > > had > > > >   to > > > >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   >   >   From: Brian Dixon > > > >   >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM > > > >   >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are > > > saying below, it > > > sounds > > > >   like > > > >   >   you've still got some reversals of logic > > > going on.  Here: > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of > > > tensile strength of the > > > filler > > > >   >   metal, are for high strength applications > > > because they > > > penetrate > > > >   the > > > >   >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or > > > DC, the other DC- > > > only I > > > >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile > > > strength of the filler > > > metal, > > > >   are > > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > > because it does *not* > > > >   penetrate > > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile > > > strength of the filler > > > metal, > > > >   is > > > >   >   for high strength tough applications > > > because of not only it's > > > >   deeper > > > >   >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile > > > strength of the filler > > > metal, > > > >   is > > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > > because it does *not* > > > >   penetrate > > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll > > > guarantee he is > > > using > > > >   7024 > > > >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until > > > the _real_ weld > > > (for > > > >   >   strength) is done on the other side.  If > > > it were up to me, > > > I'd > > > >   say to > > > >   >   follow his directions exactly, even if > > > you have to special > > > order > > > >   the > > > >   >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a > > > boat with 7024 and > > > 6013 > > > >   >   unless you want it to break along those > > > welds when you are > > > out on > > > >   the > > > >   >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can > > > back it up with > > > >   information > > > >   >   from text books and highly experienced welders. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   Brian > > > >   >   >     -----Original Message----- > > > >   >   >     From: edward_stoneuk > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > > >   >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM > > > >   >   >     To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Brian and Gary, > > > >   >   >     Thanks for your advice. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical > > > rep about the welding > > > rods > > > >   and > > > >   >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 > > > that Brent recommended > > > in > > > >   his > > > >   >   mail. > > > >   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC > > > version of 6010. > > > >   Thyssen > > > >   >   is a > > > >   >   >     German company where they tend to > > > use only DC welders; > > > so > > > >   that > > > >   >   is why > > > >   >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither > > > of the two > > > suppliers > > > >   that I > > > >   >   use, > > > >   >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one > > > Thyssen, keep 6010 > > > rods > > > >   in > > > >   >   stock. > > > >   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods > > > so I guess they > > > don't > > > >   have > > > >   >   >     any pipeline welding customers or > > > customers that weld > > > >   mostly > > > >   >   from one > > > >   >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry > > > and not re-dried so I > > > >   guess > > > >   >   unless > > > >   >   >     you need deep penetration then a > > > 6013 rod is easier to > > > look > > > >   >   after. > > > >   >   >     My understanding of the AWS > > > numbering system is that > > > the > > > >   first > > > >   >   two > > > >   >   >     numbers refer to the tensile > > > strength, e.g. a 60** rod > > > has > > > >   a > > > >   >   tensile > > > >   >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the > > > third number shows the > > > >   welding > > > >   >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any > > > position, **2* equals > > > flat > > > >   and > > > >   >   the > > > >   >   >     last number I cannot remember what > > > it means.  The 7024 > > > rod > > > >   is > > > >   >   >     therefore, if I have got this > > > right, a 70,000 psi rod > > > >   suitable > > > >   >   for > > > >   >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron > > > powder in the coating, > > > >   which > > > >   >   gives > > > >   >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on > > > my project was > > > caused by > > > >   the > > > >   >   fact > > > >   >   >     that the weld metal was thinner > > > than the plate and when > > > it > > > >   was > > > >   >   bent > > > >   >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld > > > and it cracked. > > > The > > > >   plate > > > >   >   was > > > >   >   >     bent as the side was pulled > > > together and this is before > > > the > > > >   >   other > > > >   >   >     side of the join is welded.  This > > > would be a good > > > reason > > > >   for > > > >   >   using a > > > >   >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is > > > stronger and lays down > > > plenty > > > >   of > > > >   >   steel. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds > > > a bit more > > > >   knowledgeable > > > >   >   than > > > >   >   >     mine at a local technical college > > > evening classes last > > > >   winter. > > > >   >   When > > > >   >   >     I asked him about the properties of > > > the different rods > > > he > > > >   >   >     replied "Well some welders like to > > > use one sort and some > > > >   >   >     another". > > > >   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I > > > was expecting. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Regards, > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Ted Stone > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian > > > Dixon" <briand@d...> > > > wrote: > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info. > > > I had forgotten that > > > my > > > >   >   instructor > > > >   >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with > > > 6010/7018 is > > > common. > > > >   I'll > > > >   >   ask him > > > >   >   >     some > > > >   >   >     > more about that to get his > > > feedback...he worked in > > > >   industry > > > >   >   for > > > >   >   >     about 20 > > > >   >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years > > > as a teacher and has > > > >   seen > > > >   >   over > > > >   >   >     3000 of > > > >   >   >     > his students become > > > certified..impressive.  He's full > > > of > > > >   info > > > >   >   and > > > >   >   >     advice > > > >   >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do > > > it.  I look for him > > > in > > > >   >   particular > > > >   >   >     when > > > >   >   >     > I sign up for classes. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one > > > fellow's, Ed I think, > > > >   welding > > > >   >   supply > > > >   >   >     shop > > > >   >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd > > > think 6010/6011 and > > > 7018 > > > >   would > > > >   >   be the > > > >   >   >     > staples of the industry and no > > > welding shop should be > > > >   without > > > >   >   the > > > >   >   >     full > > > >   >   >     > set... > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > > >   >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brian, > > > >   >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. > > > A few minor > > > additions. > > > >   Pipe > > > >   >   welders > > > >   >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass > > > then cap it with 7018 > > > to > > > >   >   eliminate > > > >   >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in > > > a plastics plant > > > where > > > >   we > > > >   >   had lots > > > >   >   >     of > > > >   >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 > > > degrees Fahrenheit. > > > >   7018 > > > >   >   should be > > > >   >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If > > > the coating picks up > > > >   moisture > > > >   >   it > > > >   >   >     welds > > > >   >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice > > > bead in the vertical > > > >   position > > > >   >   but the > > > >   >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes > > > skill to control. > > > 6013 is > > > >   >   popular > > > >   >   >     for > > > >   >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding > > > in the greenhouse > > > >   industry, > > > >   >   but it > > > >   >   >     sure > > > >   >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > > > >   >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, > > > but am interested > > > in > > > >   them > > > >   >   since > > > >   >   >     I'm in > > > >   >   >     > general interested in building > > > metal boats.  I'm in > > > the > > > >   >   middle of > > > >   >   >     > welding classes and working > > > towards "all steel, all > > > >   >   thicknesses, all > > > >   >   >     > positions" certification.  Your > > > note below raises > > > several > > > >   >   issues > > > >   >   >     that > > > >   >   >     > we've been covering in class, so > > > I'll tell you what > > > my > > > >   book > > > >   >   and > > > >   >   >     teacher > > > >   >   >     > have been saying.  Those with > > > more practical > > > experience > > > >   can > > > >   >   >     add/subtract > > > >   >   >     > from what I'll say: > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great > > > stuff) is very easy to > > > >   use, > > > >   >   but does > > > >   >   >     not > > > >   >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back > > > side tack welding > > > and > > > >   >   applications > > > >   >   >     > where high strength is not needed. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep > > > penetrating_ fast-freeze > > > >   electrodes > > > >   >   that > > > >   >   >     work > > > >   >   >     > well for overhead and vertical > > > welds in addition to > > > the > > > >   other > > > >   >   weld > > > >   >   >     > positions.  Works well for > > > unbeveled joints due to > > > >   >   their 'digging' > > > >   >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher > > > skill.  Ideal for > > > odd- > > > >   >   position > > > >   >   >     welding > > > >   >   >     > where high strength is required. > > > Downside is that > > > these > > > >   >   electrodes > > > >   >   >     > spatter more. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow > > > penetrating_ fill-freeze > > > electrode > > > >   >   that is > > > >   >   >     good > > > >   >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good > > > for beveled joint > > > >   welding. > > > >   >   This > > > >   >   >     > electrode is a general purpose > > > electrode for > > > production > > > >   >   operation > > > >   >   >     but is > > > >   >   >     > not for high strength applications. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > For high strength applications, > > > my instructor > > > recommends > > > >   7018 > > > >   >   for > > > >   >   >     flat > > > >   >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, > > > but 6010 or 6011 for > > > >   vertical > > > >   >   and > > > >   >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 > > > are fine if you don't > > > need > > > >   the > > > >   >   high > > > >   >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, > > > rust, galvanizing, or > > > are > > > >   >   welding > > > >   >   >     pipes, > > > >   >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires > > > clean metal, otherwise > > > you > > > >   can > > > >   >   get > > > >   >   >     > porosity. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, > > > could be several > > > >   problems. > > > >   >   >     Porosity > > > >   >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric > > > contamination (a breeze > > > >   where > > > >   >   you were > > > >   >   >     > welding, welding technique, > > > contamination due to > > > humidity > > > >   or > > > >   >   age > > > >   >   >     etc.) > > > >   >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak > > > bead that cracks > > > >   >   longitudinally. > > > >   >   >     Lifting > > > >   >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld > > > too quickly (loss of > > > >   >   shielding) can > > > >   >   >     > start a crater crack which > > > propagates.  Mismatch of > > > rod > > > >   to > > > >   >   base > > > >   >   >     metal > > > >   >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high > > > stress on a 6013 > > > weld, > > > >   the > > > >   >   crack > > > >   >   >     may > > > >   >   >     > have started at the > > > filler-to-base metal interface > > > >   because > > > >   >   6013 > > > >   >   >     doesn't > > > >   >   >     > have as deep a penetration as > > > 6011 for example.  A > > > >   >   combination of > > > >   >   >     the > > > >   >   >     > above...you'll have to examine > > > your welds to figure > > > out > > > >   which > > > >   >   issue > > > >   >   >     (s) > > > >   >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm > > > not too far off > > > >   here...just > > > >   >   >     passing on > > > >   >   >     > class notes really, because I > > > don't have a helluva > > > lot of > > > >   >   welding > > > >   >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else > > > might provide a more > > > >   pragmatic > > > >   >   >     answer, but > > > >   >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told > > > anyway...some > > > >   things > > > >   >   to > > > >   >   >     think > > > >   >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a > > > simple topic and does > > > >   require > > > >   >   a > > > >   >   >     > reasonably high level of > > > expertise to get it right. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > > >   >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brent, > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > With regard to your > > > recommendation of 6011 and 7024 > > > >   rods. > > > >   >   What > > > >   >   >     > properties are you particularly > > > interested in?  The > > > >   reason I > > > >   >   ask is > > > >   >   >     > because my usual supplier sells > > > Thyssen rods and they > > > >   don't > > > >   >   do 6011 > > > >   >   >     > although they have five types of > > > 6013 and two of 7024 > > > >   amongst > > > >   >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency > > > DC welder.  I welded > > > the > > > >   >   chine > > > >   >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I > > > pulled the bottom > > > sheets > > > >   >   together, > > > >   >   >     > which causes the chine angle to > > > change, some of the > > > >   existing > > > >   >   welds > > > >   >   >     in > > > >   >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down > > > the centre.  It is > > > no > > > >   >   problem to > > > >   >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I > > > would like to do it > > > >   right > > > >   >   this > > > >   >   >     > time.  The other thing is that > > > the transverse join > > > >   overlaps > > > >   >   which > > > >   >   >     is > > > >   >   >     > obviously better than not meeting > > > and understandable > > > >   given > > > >   >   usual > > > >   >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have > > > any advice on > > > getting a > > > >   >   decent fit > > > >   >   >     > other than offering it up and > > > trimming off? > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Regards, > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Ted Stone > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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968|938|2002-07-11 20:06:02|brentswain38|Re: Welding Rods|brentswain38@... will be my new e-mail address as hotmail limits  you to 1/3rd the capacity of yahoo, and limits you to one month. I'm  not sure if yahoo gives you more time, but the extra capacity will  sure help when I'm away cruising for months without computer access.   Brent Swain   --- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill" <tillrc@h...> wrote: > Ted, it seems you may be welding in the UK.  If this is the case and  > you wish to access 6010 0r 6011 electrodes they were avilable and  > probably still are.  Airco may market them through Murex.  I worked  > on gas pipelines in the UK for a while and we used Lincoln Fleetweld  > 5, Fleetweld 35 (6011) along with the more conventional downhill  pipe  > rods.  I imagine 5P+ (improved 6010) is available too.  The  > pipeliners often dump 44lbs cans of these rods if the containers are  > dented, half used  or suspected of being slightly damp.  ESAB  markets  > in the UK and do produce 60XX series rods.  ESAB (Sweden) reportedly  > welded the fisrt all welded steel boat back in the day when they  > created the first practical coated electrodes.  Now I digress.  All  > the best finding the right rod.  rt    >  >  --- In origamiboats@y..., "The Bumby's" <bumby@c...> wrote: > > I don't know why I'm receiving e-mail on the welding rods but I'm  > finding it interesting! > >  > > There is a book called "Superior Alloys for Maintenance and  Repair"  > by MG INDUSTRIES. > > I bought mine at a local welding shop and have found it very  > helpful in making decisions  > > about what rod to use and what settings for each rod.  There is  > also a phone number; > > 800-558-8524, which can be used to receive expert help for most  any  > welding concern. > >  > > I hope this helps and thanks for the tips from the different  people. > >  > > Ernest                :^) > >   ----- Original Message -----  > >   From: edward_stoneuk  > >   To: origamiboats@y...  > >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:29 PM > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >  > >  > >   Brian and Gary, > >   Thanks for your advice. > >  > >   I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods and  > >   especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his  > mail.   > >   The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010.  Thyssen is  > a  > >   German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that  is  > why  > >   they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither of the two suppliers that I  > use,  > >   one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in  > stock.   > >   They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't have > >   any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly  from  > one  > >   side.  The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I guess  > unless  > >   you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look  > after.    > >   My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the first  > two  > >   numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a  > tensile  > >   strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding  > >   positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and  > the  > >   last number I cannot remember what it means.  The 7024 rod is  > >   therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable  > for  > >   flat welding.  It also has iron powder in the coating, which  > gives  > >   weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > >  > >   On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the  > fact  > >   that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was  > bent  > >   the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked.  The plate  > was  > >   bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the  other  > >   side of the join is welded.  This would be a good reason for  > using a  > >   rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of  > steel. > >  > >   Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable  than  > >   mine at a local technical college evening classes last winter.   > When  > >   I asked him about the properties of the different rods he  > >   replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some > >   another".   > >   Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. > >  > >   Regards, > >  > >   Ted Stone > >  > >  > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: > >   >   > >   > Thanks for the additional info.  I had forgotten that my  > instructor > >   > mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common.  I'll  ask  > him  > >   some > >   > more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry  for  > >   about 20 > >   > years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen  over  > >   3000 of > >   > his students become certified..impressive.  He's full of info  > and  > >   advice > >   > on how NOT to do it and how TO do it.  I look for him in  > particular  > >   when > >   > I sign up for classes. > >   >   > >   > It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding  > supply  > >   shop > >   > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would  be  > the > >   > staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without  > the  > >   full > >   > set... > >   >   > >   > Brian > >   >  > >   > -----Original Message----- > >   > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]  > >   > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > >   > To: origamiboats@y... > >   > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >   >  > >   >  > >   > Brian, > >   > It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe  > welders > >   > often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to  eliminate > >   > pinholes.  We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had  > lots  > >   of > >   > welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018  > should be > >   > kept in a heated rod oven.  If the coating picks up moisture  it  > >   welds > >   > poorly.  7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position  > but the > >   > very fluid slag covering takes skill to control.  6013 is  > popular  > >   for > >   > low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry,  but  > it  > >   sure > >   > doesn't make very strong welds. > >   >   > >   > Gary H. Lucas > >   >  > >   > ----- Original Message -----  > >   > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon  > >   > To: origamiboats@y...  > >   > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > >   > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >   >  > >   > I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them  > since  > >   I'm in > >   > general interested in building metal boats.  I'm in the middle  > of > >   > welding classes and working towards "all steel, all  > thicknesses, all > >   > positions" certification.  Your note below raises several  > issues  > >   that > >   > we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book  and  > >   teacher > >   > have been saying.  Those with more practical experience can  > >   add/subtract > >   > from what I'll say: > >   >   > >   >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but  > does  > >   not > >   > penetrate deeply.  Good for back side tack welding and  > applications > >   > where high strength is not needed. > >   >   > >   >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes  > that  > >   work > >   > well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other  > weld > >   > positions.  Works well for unbeveled joints due to  > their 'digging' > >   > characteristic.  Requires higher skill.  Ideal for  odd-position  > >   welding > >   > where high strength is required.  Downside is that these  > electrodes > >   > spatter more. > >   >   > >   >   - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that  > is  > >   good > >   > for poor fit situations.  Good for beveled joint welding.   This > >   > electrode is a general purpose electrode for production  > operation  > >   but is > >   > not for high strength applications. > >   >   > >   > For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018  > for  > >   flat > >   > and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical  > and > >   > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the  > high > >   > strength.  If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding  > >   pipes, > >   > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can  get > >   > porosity. > >   >   > >   > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems.   > >   Porosity > >   > is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where  you  > were > >   > welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or  > age  > >   etc.) > >   > Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally.    > >   Lifting > >   > the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of  > shielding) can > >   > start a crater crack which propagates.  Mismatch of rod to  base  > >   metal > >   > (doesn't apply here.)  With high stress on a 6013 weld, the  > crack  > >   may > >   > have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because  6013  > >   doesn't > >   > have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example.  A combination  > of  > >   the > >   > above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which  > issue > >   (s) > >   > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just  > >   passing on > >   > class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of  > welding > >   > experience yet.  Someone else might provide a more pragmatic  > >   answer, but > >   > I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things  > to  > >   think > >   > about I guess.  Welding's not a simple topic and does require  a > >   > reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. > >   >   > >   > Brian > >   >   > >   >   > >   >  > >   > -----Original Message----- > >   > From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]  > >   > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > >   > To: origamiboats@y... > >   > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > >   >  > >   >  > >   > Brent, > >   >  > >   > With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods.   What  > >   > properties are you particularly interested in?  The reason I  > ask is  > >   > because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do  > 6011  > >   > although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst  > >   > others.  I use a high frequency DC welder.  I welded the chine  > >   > starting from both ends.  As I pulled the bottom sheets  > together,  > >   > which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing  > welds  > >   in  > >   > 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre.  It is no  problem  > to  > >   > grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right  this  > >   > time.  The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps  > which  > >   is  > >   > obviously better than not meeting and understandable given  > usual  > >   > welding tolerances.  Do you have any advice on getting a  decent  > fit  > >   > other than offering it up and trimming off? > >   >  > >   > Regards, > >   >  > >   > Ted Stone > >   >  > >   >  > >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >   >  > >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service > >   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .  > >   >  > >   >  > >   >  > >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >   >  > >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > >   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.  > >   >  > >   >  > >   >  > >   > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >   > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y...  > >   >  > >   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service > >   > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . > >  > >  > >   To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > >   To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@y...  > >  > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of  > Service.  > >  > >  > >  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
969|938|2002-07-12 00:34:21|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|I had mentioned that I'd ask my very-experienced welding instructor his opinion on the different rods.  For boats, I don't think he's got any experience, but here's what he had to say:     - 6011/6010 versus 6013: Not a helluva lot of difference.  6013 is listed as having less penetration, but then he showed me a 3/8" plate with stringer welds on it...6010, 6011, and 6013 side by side.  The plate had been cut 90-degrees to the welds and polished so you could compare penetration.  The 6013 penetrated only a little less...you could see the difference, but it wasn't a lot.  7024 was less than all of them, but was the prettiest...easy for new guys to weld with as Brent pointed out because the shield coating is designed to disintegrate at the right rate for maintaining the arc length...in a T-joint for example, you just poke the rod right into the groove so it touches both sides of the joint and then drag the stick along...voila!  Perfect weld...but it'll break easier than deeper penetrating welds...depends on surface preparation, weld speed, and current setting.    - 601x versus 7018 for corrosion resistance.  He claimed that he's heard rumors of that but has *never* seen anything in writing from anybody or any organization, let alone results of actual tests.  Mind you, that doesn't mean 601x isn't less likely to corrode, it just means my instructor didn't know.   I still think Brent's suggestions make the best sense, and as he stated, the boat's history proves this out.   Brian  -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...]  Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods   Ted    It's not uncommon for the chine welds to crack as you are pulling  the hull together as they hinge a long way and change their angle  greatly as the hull is pulled together. The cure is to climb outside  the hull as soon as the chine begins to come off the ground and put 4  inch long  welds with 6011 on the outside the chine. That way any  change in angle pulls away from the welds rather than toward them.   There is far less metal in the weld than in the plate with welding  on the inside only and any welding rod will tend to crack in this  situation.   This has no bearing on the adequacy of the weld strength in the  finished boat. The first 36 footer I built in 1981 , welded entirely  with 6011 and 7024 survived 16 days pounding on a lee shore in 12  foot surf on the west coast of mexico with no major structural  dammage , and was pulled off through 12 foot surf with no dammage.   Another 36 survived pounding accross 300 yards of Fijian coral reef  and was pulled off by a large tug with no major dammage, then it  survived a collision with a freighter in Gibralter without serious  structural dammage, no welds failed . It was welded entirely with  6011 and 7024.   Before we begin to worry about weld strength we should consider how  many boats have done circumnavigations while held together by copper  fastenings in red cedar every 6 inches.   The reason I use 7024 is because it's a lot faster and easier to  use than 7018 and it's a lot easier to screw up a weld with 7018. the  slag on 7018 is a lot harder to remove,7024 is dwefinitly a flat  welding rod only While doing structural steel work they insisted I use 7018, This was  before 7018n was available in ac. They gave me cold rods and an ac  machine to use. When I cut the welds open they were full of bubbles  and looked like an aero bar inside, but because the right number was  on the rod they were happy.   When I weld the lugs on for pulling the hull together I usually let  the owner weld them on with 7024. It's often the first time the've  ever tried welding. When they are no longer needed I give them a  sledge hammer and let them try to break the welds . When they are  totally exhausted and the lugs have finally broken , about a half an  inch up above the weld,after being bent back and forth many times I  ask them if they are still worried about weld strength. Somehow they  never are.   6011 is ac rod, 6010 is dc. They are the only rod which will blow  the slag right out of the puddle which is why until recently they are  the only rods that lloyds would approve of.The are extremely  forgivving with regard to conditions and the shape they are in.They  penetrate far better than the alternatives.   As any seams should be welded on one side, then all slag ground out  from the otherside before the outside weld is put on, penetration is  not that great an issue.   If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a 3/16th inch plate with  a single pass of 1/8th inch 7024 , then try to break it with a  hammer, the 1/8th will break well away from the weld, as there is  more metal in the weld than in the 1/8th inch  plate.                    I prefer to have the transevese seam  overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parrallel, then tack  the centreline end  of the overlap. Then I cut off the overlap, grind  a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together, then cut  the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the  transeverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges of  scrap plate accross the seam every foot or so ,to keep it straight  while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces of  angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been fully  welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them  finished.          Brent Swain         -- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill" <tillrc@h...> wrote:  > The Lincoln Electric Company has published "New Lessons in ARC  > WELDING" since 1940.  There was a 1999 Edition.  Barry Hammel in  > Vancouver BC stocks them as would most Lincoln distributors.  The  > larger "Proceedures Handbook" costs more and is fairly in depth.  > Typically 7024 is intended for plate over 3/16" and is described as  > shallow penetration--7014 is intended for material between sheet  > metal and heavier plate (ie. 10ga) and is designated as medium  > penetration.  6013 is the sheet metal rod.  That said, you can  > increase the penetration of 7024 by cranking up the heat and   changing   > the rod angle or; reduce the penetration of 6010/11 by reducing   heat   > etc. Back to control of the weld pool.  rt   >  > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: > > Where do all of you get your information?  The AWS Welding   Handbook?  > > Hope so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to rely on my > > textbook (Welding Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller).  In my text, 7014   is  > > listed as "low penetration, high speed, fill-freeze".  The text   is   > not > > clear, but the description for 6013 differs slightly for  > penetration and > > says "shallow penetration."  Not sure what the difference is   between  > > "low" and "shallow"...any of you know?  My instructor hasn't  > mentioned > > 7014, but I'll ask him and pose a few questions about steel boat > > building.  Hmmm...I really appreciate all the welding rod  > discussion... > >   > > Brian > >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sanderse [mailto:sanderse@p...]  > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:19 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > >  > >  > > Agreed.  I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems.  9i > > used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014 on > > anything less than 3/16th. > >  > >  > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] > > > Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > > There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the number > > > you will see this > > > to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs > > > tensile.  Can be used > > > AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate > > > is fair to good, > > > vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really well: > > > it does most things > > > fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor > > > environment better than- > > > say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with > > > no problems.  Used > > > it on the inside of the chine because I had > > > plenty of it on hand and > > > it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and > > > equivilent filler metal) > > > because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and > > > can handle the > > > outdoor environment.  I have welded in Canada, > > > the UK and the US and > > > now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal > > > program.  Given > > > appropriate plate set up, the most common > > > structural defects in > > > welding are not linked to the type of rod or > > > filler material but to > > > the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics > > > and speed of travel > > > of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding with > > > integrity is control > > > of the weld pool.  rt > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look > > > how nice those welds > > > are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you > > > didn't know that > > > penetration makes a big difference in weld > > > strength you'd say any of > > > these rods are okay. > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   From: edward_stoneuk > > > >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM > > > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > > > > >   Gary, > > > > > > > >   Thanks for the info. > > > > > > > >   I guess that is what might be expected with > > > using a 7024 rod > > > >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for > > > flat / horizontal use > > > >   only? > > > > > > > >   Regards, > > > >   Ted Stone > > > > > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > >   > Ted, > > > >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds > > > with two different > > > rods > > > >   you probably would get two very similar > > > strength welds.  In the > > > real > > > >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod > > > with particular > > > >   properties will often give you a better weld. > > >  Years ago I had a > > > >   young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets > > > to angle iron posts > > > >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds > > > LOOKED very nice.  I > > > told > > > >   him they were no good and he protested.  I > > > struck the bracket > > > hard > > > >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! > > > >   > > > > >   > Earlier we were talking about mig welding. > > > I cautioned > > > everyone > > > >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for > > > welding anything but > > > >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire > > > because of greater > > > >   penetration.  Every time I have said this I > > > get tons of flack > > > about > > > >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have > > > been having mild > > > steel > > > >   parts hot dip galvanized for many years. > > > EVERY time someone uses > > > >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld > > > failures from lack of > > > >   penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when > > > you weld thousands > > > of > > > >   parts that hang machinery over peoples heads > > > how many bad welds > > > are > > > >   acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to > > > near zero simply by > > > >   insisting in writing on our prints that no > > > parts would be > > > accepted if > > > >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding > > > with stick is no > > > >   different, use the rod that will give you the > > > best chance of > > > >   producing a good weld. > > > >   > > > > >   > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   >   From: edward_stoneuk > > > >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM > > > >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   >   Brian and Gary, > > > >   > > > > >   >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are > > > you saying that a > > > 60,000 > > > >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or > > > 6011 rod is stronger > > > >   than > > > >   >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to > > > the same thickness > > > given > > > >   >   that both welds  are full thickness welds > > > in fully prepared, > > > >   >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that > > > both weld metals have > > > the > > > >   same > > > >   >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be > > > stronger than a 7024 > > > weld > > > >   of > > > >   >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? > > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and > > > could get at least > > > two > > > >   >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered > > > what qualities Brent > > > was > > > >   >   looking for so that I could follow his > > > recommendations in > > > message > > > >   937 > > > >   >   as closely as possible.  Following yours > > > and others advice I > > > have > > > >   >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now > > > understand has similar > > > >   qualities to > > > >   >   6011 and will pick them up today together > > > with a packet of > > > 7024 > > > >   as > > > >   >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts > > > of 7024 rods and so > > > I > > > >   took > > > >   >   their technical reps advice on which to > > > choose and he > > > recommended > > > >   the > > > >   >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly > > > I think because > > > that is > > > >   the > > > >   >   one that the distributor keeps in stock. > > > The other rod has > > > 160% > > > >   weld > > > >   >   metal recovery.  Which one would you > > > recommend?  Who makes > > > the > > > >   7024 > > > >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery > > > is on that? > > > >   > > > > >   > > > > >   >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any > > > special favouritism > > > >   towards > > > >   >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't > > > even heard of them > > > but > > > >   we > > > >   >   used them on the welding course so its > > > probably a case of > > > better > > > >   the > > > >   >   devil you know) shows five different > > > types of 6013 rods, > > > three of > > > >   >   which include in their field of > > > application statements > > > >   shipbuilding, > > > >   >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it > > > is suitable for > > > >   shipbuilding > > > >   >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, > > > (whatever that > > > might > > > >   be). > > > >   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N > > > and their Phoenix Blau > > > 30 > > > >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of > > > their supplier.  I have > > > also > > > >   >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. > > > >   > > > > >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 > > > rods are all listed > > > as > > > >   >   pipeline rods which of course confirms > > > what you say Brian. > > > You > > > >   can > > > >   >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe > > > so you need good > > > >   >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a > > > ship or a tank you > > > can > > > >   mostly > > > >   >   get to the other side and vee out any > > > crud and weld to get a > > > full > > > >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep > > > penetrating rod will > > > tend > > > >   to > > > >   >   blow holes throught the plate and so a > > > mild penetration rod > > > or > > > >   for > > > >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make > > > life easier.  In the > > > >   case of > > > >   >   the origami boats where many of the > > > plates have to be > > > manipulated > > > >   >   before the finish weld is done on the > > > other side the first > > > weld > > > >   has > > > >   >   to strong enough to take that but a deep > > > penetrating rod will > > > >   tend to > > > >   >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this > > > first thick weld on > > > the > > > >   other > > > >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld > > > allows a deep > > > penetrating > > > >   rod to > > > >   >   be used, which copes better with a less > > > than perfect cleaning > > > out > > > >   of > > > >   >   the vee.  I think that is what you are > > > saying Brian.  Is the > > > >   above a > > > >   >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent > > > will give his views in > > > due > > > >   >   course. > > > >   > > > > >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but > > > writing things down and > > > >   feed > > > >   >   back from folks such as yourselves are > > > very useful in getting > > > >   things > > > >   >   straight in ones mind. > > > >   > > > > >   >   Regards, > > > >   >   Ted Stone > > > >   > > > > >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > <gary.lucas@v...> > > > wrote: > > > >   >   > MessageBrian, > > > >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of > > > interest.  I did a > > > >   repair on > > > >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made > > > from T1 steel.  I > > > had > > > >   to > > > >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   >   >   From: Brian Dixon > > > >   >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM > > > >   >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are > > > saying below, it > > > sounds > > > >   like > > > >   >   you've still got some reversals of logic > > > going on.  Here: > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of > > > tensile strength of the > > > filler > > > >   >   metal, are for high strength applications > > > because they > > > penetrate > > > >   the > > > >   >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or > > > DC, the other DC- > > > only I > > > >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile > > > strength of the filler > > > metal, > > > >   are > > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > > because it does *not* > > > >   penetrate > > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile > > > strength of the filler > > > metal, > > > >   is > > > >   >   for high strength tough applications > > > because of not only it's > > > >   deeper > > > >   >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile > > > strength of the filler > > > metal, > > > >   is > > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > > because it does *not* > > > >   penetrate > > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll > > > guarantee he is > > > using > > > >   7024 > > > >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until > > > the _real_ weld > > > (for > > > >   >   strength) is done on the other side.  If > > > it were up to me, > > > I'd > > > >   say to > > > >   >   follow his directions exactly, even if > > > you have to special > > > order > > > >   the > > > >   >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a > > > boat with 7024 and > > > 6013 > > > >   >   unless you want it to break along those > > > welds when you are > > > out on > > > >   the > > > >   >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can > > > back it up with > > > >   information > > > >   >   from text books and highly experienced welders. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >   Brian > > > >   >   >     -----Original Message----- > > > >   >   >     From: edward_stoneuk > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > > >   >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM > > > >   >   >     To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Brian and Gary, > > > >   >   >     Thanks for your advice. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical > > > rep about the welding > > > rods > > > >   and > > > >   >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 > > > that Brent recommended > > > in > > > >   his > > > >   >   mail. > > > >   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC > > > version of 6010. > > > >   Thyssen > > > >   >   is a > > > >   >   >     German company where they tend to > > > use only DC welders; > > > so > > > >   that > > > >   >   is why > > > >   >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither > > > of the two > > > suppliers > > > >   that I > > > >   >   use, > > > >   >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one > > > Thyssen, keep 6010 > > > rods > > > >   in > > > >   >   stock. > > > >   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods > > > so I guess they > > > don't > > > >   have > > > >   >   >     any pipeline welding customers or > > > customers that weld > > > >   mostly > > > >   >   from one > > > >   >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry > > > and not re-dried so I > > > >   guess > > > >   >   unless > > > >   >   >     you need deep penetration then a > > > 6013 rod is easier to > > > look > > > >   >   after. > > > >   >   >     My understanding of the AWS > > > numbering system is that > > > the > > > >   first > > > >   >   two > > > >   >   >     numbers refer to the tensile > > > strength, e.g. a 60** rod > > > has > > > >   a > > > >   >   tensile > > > >   >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the > > > third number shows the > > > >   welding > > > >   >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any > > > position, **2* equals > > > flat > > > >   and > > > >   >   the > > > >   >   >     last number I cannot remember what > > > it means.  The 7024 > > > rod > > > >   is > > > >   >   >     therefore, if I have got this > > > right, a 70,000 psi rod > > > >   suitable > > > >   >   for > > > >   >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron > > > powder in the coating, > > > >   which > > > >   >   gives > > > >   >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on > > > my project was > > > caused by > > > >   the > > > >   >   fact > > > >   >   >     that the weld metal was thinner > > > than the plate and when > > > it > > > >   was > > > >   >   bent > > > >   >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld > > > and it cracked. > > > The > > > >   plate > > > >   >   was > > > >   >   >     bent as the side was pulled > > > together and this is before > > > the > > > >   >   other > > > >   >   >     side of the join is welded.  This > > > would be a good > > > reason > > > >   for > > > >   >   using a > > > >   >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is > > > stronger and lays down > > > plenty > > > >   of > > > >   >   steel. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds > > > a bit more > > > >   knowledgeable > > > >   >   than > > > >   >   >     mine at a local technical college > > > evening classes last > > > >   winter. > > > >   >   When > > > >   >   >     I asked him about the properties of > > > the different rods > > > he > > > >   >   >     replied "Well some welders like to > > > use one sort and some > > > >   >   >     another". > > > >   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I > > > was expecting. > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Regards, > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     Ted Stone > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   > > > > >   >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian > > > Dixon" <briand@d...> > > > wrote: > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info. > > > I had forgotten that > > > my > > > >   >   instructor > > > >   >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with > > > 6010/7018 is > > > common. > > > >   I'll > > > >   >   ask him > > > >   >   >     some > > > >   >   >     > more about that to get his > > > feedback...he worked in > > > >   industry > > > >   >   for > > > >   >   >     about 20 > > > >   >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years > > > as a teacher and has > > > >   seen > > > >   >   over > > > >   >   >     3000 of > > > >   >   >     > his students become > > > certified..impressive.  He's full > > > of > > > >   info > > > >   >   and > > > >   >   >     advice > > > >   >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do > > > it.  I look for him > > > in > > > >   >   particular > > > >   >   >     when > > > >   >   >     > I sign up for classes. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one > > > fellow's, Ed I think, > > > >   welding > > > >   >   supply > > > >   >   >     shop > > > >   >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd > > > think 6010/6011 and > > > 7018 > > > >   would > > > >   >   be the > > > >   >   >     > staples of the industry and no > > > welding shop should be > > > >   without > > > >   >   the > > > >   >   >     full > > > >   >   >     > set... > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > > >   >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brian, > > > >   >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. > > > A few minor > > > additions. > > > >   Pipe > > > >   >   welders > > > >   >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass > > > then cap it with 7018 > > > to > > > >   >   eliminate > > > >   >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in > > > a plastics plant > > > where > > > >   we > > > >   >   had lots > > > >   >   >     of > > > >   >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 > > > degrees Fahrenheit. > > > >   7018 > > > >   >   should be > > > >   >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If > > > the coating picks up > > > >   moisture > > > >   >   it > > > >   >   >     welds > > > >   >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice > > > bead in the vertical > > > >   position > > > >   >   but the > > > >   >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes > > > skill to control. > > > 6013 is > > > >   >   popular > > > >   >   >     for > > > >   >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding > > > in the greenhouse > > > >   industry, > > > >   >   but it > > > >   >   >     sure > > > >   >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >   >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > > > >   >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, > > > but am interested > > > in > > > >   them > > > >   >   since > > > >   >   >     I'm in > > > >   >   >     > general interested in building > > > metal boats.  I'm in > > > the > > > >   >   middle of > > > >   >   >     > welding classes and working > > > towards "all steel, all > > > >   >   thicknesses, all > > > >   >   >     > positions" certification.  Your > > > note below raises > > > several > > > >   >   issues > > > >   >   >     that > > > >   >   >     > we've been covering in class, so > > > I'll tell you what > > > my > > > >   book > > > >   >   and > > > >   >   >     teacher > > > >   >   >     > have been saying.  Those with > > > more practical > > > experience > > > >   can > > > >   >   >     add/subtract > > > >   >   >     > from what I'll say: > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great > > > stuff) is very easy to > > > >   use, > > > >   >   but does > > > >   >   >     not > > > >   >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back > > > side tack welding > > > and > > > >   >   applications > > > >   >   >     > where high strength is not needed. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep > > > penetrating_ fast-freeze > > > >   electrodes > > > >   >   that > > > >   >   >     work > > > >   >   >     > well for overhead and vertical > > > welds in addition to > > > the > > > >   other > > > >   >   weld > > > >   >   >     > positions.  Works well for > > > unbeveled joints due to > > > >   >   their 'digging' > > > >   >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher > > > skill.  Ideal for > > > odd- > > > >   >   position > > > >   >   >     welding > > > >   >   >     > where high strength is required. > > > Downside is that > > > these > > > >   >   electrodes > > > >   >   >     > spatter more. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow > > > penetrating_ fill-freeze > > > electrode > > > >   >   that is > > > >   >   >     good > > > >   >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good > > > for beveled joint > > > >   welding. > > > >   >   This > > > >   >   >     > electrode is a general purpose > > > electrode for > > > production > > > >   >   operation > > > >   >   >     but is > > > >   >   >     > not for high strength applications. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > For high strength applications, > > > my instructor > > > recommends > > > >   7018 > > > >   >   for > > > >   >   >     flat > > > >   >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, > > > but 6010 or 6011 for > > > >   vertical > > > >   >   and > > > >   >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 > > > are fine if you don't > > > need > > > >   the > > > >   >   high > > > >   >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, > > > rust, galvanizing, or > > > are > > > >   >   welding > > > >   >   >     pipes, > > > >   >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires > > > clean metal, otherwise > > > you > > > >   can > > > >   >   get > > > >   >   >     > porosity. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, > > > could be several > > > >   problems. > > > >   >   >     Porosity > > > >   >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric > > > contamination (a breeze > > > >   where > > > >   >   you were > > > >   >   >     > welding, welding technique, > > > contamination due to > > > humidity > > > >   or > > > >   >   age > > > >   >   >     etc.) > > > >   >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak > > > bead that cracks > > > >   >   longitudinally. > > > >   >   >     Lifting > > > >   >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld > > > too quickly (loss of > > > >   >   shielding) can > > > >   >   >     > start a crater crack which > > > propagates.  Mismatch of > > > rod > > > >   to > > > >   >   base > > > >   >   >     metal > > > >   >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high > > > stress on a 6013 > > > weld, > > > >   the > > > >   >   crack > > > >   >   >     may > > > >   >   >     > have started at the > > > filler-to-base metal interface > > > >   because > > > >   >   6013 > > > >   >   >     doesn't > > > >   >   >     > have as deep a penetration as > > > 6011 for example.  A > > > >   >   combination of > > > >   >   >     the > > > >   >   >     > above...you'll have to examine > > > your welds to figure > > > out > > > >   which > > > >   >   issue > > > >   >   >     (s) > > > >   >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm > > > not too far off > > > >   here...just > > > >   >   >     passing on > > > >   >   >     > class notes really, because I > > > don't have a helluva > > > lot of > > > >   >   welding > > > >   >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else > > > might provide a more > > > >   pragmatic > > > >   >   >     answer, but > > > >   >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told > > > anyway...some > > > >   things > > > >   >   to > > > >   >   >     think > > > >   >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a > > > simple topic and does > > > >   require > > > >   >   a > > > >   >   >     > reasonably high level of > > > expertise to get it right. > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > > >   >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Brent, > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > With regard to your > > > recommendation of 6011 and 7024 > > > >   rods. > > > >   >   What > > > >   >   >     > properties are you particularly > > > interested in?  The > > > >   reason I > > > >   >   ask is > > > >   >   >     > because my usual supplier sells > > > Thyssen rods and they > > > >   don't > > > >   >   do 6011 > > > >   >   >     > although they have five types of > > > 6013 and two of 7024 > > > >   amongst > > > >   >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency > > > DC welder.  I welded > > > the > > > >   >   chine > > > >   >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I > > > pulled the bottom > > > sheets > > > >   >   together, > > > >   >   >     > which causes the chine angle to > > > change, some of the > > > >   existing > > > >   >   welds > > > >   >   >     in > > > >   >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down > > > the centre.  It is > > > no > > > >   >   problem to > > > >   >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I > > > would like to do it > > > >   right > > > >   >   this > > > >   >   >     > time.  The other thing is that > > > the transverse join > > > >   overlaps > > > >   >   which > > > >   >   >     is > > > >   >   >     > obviously better than not meeting > > > and understandable > > > >   given > > > >   >   usual > > > >   >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have > > > any advice on > > > getting a > > > >   >   decent fit > > > >   >   >     > other than offering it up and > > > trimming off? > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Regards, > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Ted Stone > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@y... > > > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > >   >   >     > > > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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970|938|2002-07-15 18:40:39|edward_stoneuk|Re: Welding Rods|Brent and everyone,  Many thanks for your info.  Sorry I didn't reply sooner but we've  been away sailing, in a GRP boat.  I've now got the rods OK.  Many  years ago when I worked on a farm we used three types of rod: 6013  rods I think, cutting/gouging rods, and hard surfacing rods.  We  repaired and modified farm and earthmoving plant and made excavator  buckets that held together without problems.  Regards, Ted   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: > I had mentioned that I'd ask my very-experienced welding instructor  his > opinion on the different rods.  For boats, I don't think he's got  any > experience, but here's what he had to say: >   >   - 6011/6010 versus 6013: Not a helluva lot of difference.  6013 is > listed as having less penetration, but then he showed me a 3/8"  plate > with stringer welds on it...6010, 6011, and 6013 side by side.  The > plate had been cut 90-degrees to the welds and polished so you could > compare penetration.  The 6013 penetrated only a little less...you  could > see the difference, but it wasn't a lot.  7024 was less than all of > them, but was the prettiest...easy for new guys to weld with as  Brent > pointed out because the shield coating is designed to disintegrate  at > the right rate for maintaining the arc length...in a T-joint for > example, you just poke the rod right into the groove so it touches  both > sides of the joint and then drag the stick along...voila!  Perfect > weld...but it'll break easier than deeper penetrating  welds...depends on > surface preparation, weld speed, and current setting. >   >  - 601x versus 7018 for corrosion resistance.  He claimed that he's > heard rumors of that but has *never* seen anything in writing from > anybody or any organization, let alone results of actual tests.   Mind > you, that doesn't mean 601x isn't less likely to corrode, it just  means > my instructor didn't know. >   > I still think Brent's suggestions make the best sense, and as he  stated, > the boat's history proves this out. >   > Brian >  > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...]  > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:52 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods >  >  > Ted  >   It's not uncommon for the chine welds to crack as you are pulling  > the hull together as they hinge a long way and change their angle  > greatly as the hull is pulled together. The cure is to climb  outside  > the hull as soon as the chine begins to come off the ground and put  4  > inch long  welds with 6011 on the outside the chine. That way any  > change in angle pulls away from the welds rather than toward them. >   There is far less metal in the weld than in the plate with  welding  > on the inside only and any welding rod will tend to crack in this  > situation. >   This has no bearing on the adequacy of the weld strength in the  > finished boat. The first 36 footer I built in 1981 , welded  entirely  > with 6011 and 7024 survived 16 days pounding on a lee shore in 12  > foot surf on the west coast of mexico with no major structural  > dammage , and was pulled off through 12 foot surf with no dammage. >   Another 36 survived pounding accross 300 yards of Fijian coral  reef  > and was pulled off by a large tug with no major dammage, then it  > survived a collision with a freighter in Gibralter without serious  > structural dammage, no welds failed . It was welded entirely with  > 6011 and 7024. >   Before we begin to worry about weld strength we should consider  how  > many boats have done circumnavigations while held together by  copper  > fastenings in red cedar every 6 inches. >   The reason I use 7024 is because it's a lot faster and easier to  > use than 7018 and it's a lot easier to screw up a weld with 7018.  the  > slag on 7018 is a lot harder to remove,7024 is dwefinitly a flat  > welding rod only > While doing structural steel work they insisted I use 7018, This  was  > before 7018n was available in ac. They gave me cold rods and an ac  > machine to use. When I cut the welds open they were full of bubbles  > and looked like an aero bar inside, but because the right number  was  > on the rod they were happy. >   When I weld the lugs on for pulling the hull together I usually  let  > the owner weld them on with 7024. It's often the first time the've  > ever tried welding. When they are no longer needed I give them a  > sledge hammer and let them try to break the welds . When they are  > totally exhausted and the lugs have finally broken , about a half  an  > inch up above the weld,after being bent back and forth many times I  > ask them if they are still worried about weld strength. Somehow  they  > never are. >   6011 is ac rod, 6010 is dc. They are the only rod which will blow  > the slag right out of the puddle which is why until recently they  are  > the only rods that lloyds would approve of.The are extremely  > forgivving with regard to conditions and the shape they are in.They  > penetrate far better than the alternatives. >   As any seams should be welded on one side, then all slag ground  out  > from the otherside before the outside weld is put on, penetration  is  > not that great an issue. >   If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a 3/16th inch plate  with  > a single pass of 1/8th inch 7024 , then try to break it with a  > hammer, the 1/8th will break well away from the weld, as there is  > more metal in the weld than in the 1/8th inch  > plate.                    I prefer to have the transevese seam  > overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parrallel, then tack  > the centreline end  of the overlap. Then I cut off the overlap,  grind  > a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together, then  cut  > the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the  > transeverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges of  > scrap plate accross the seam every foot or so ,to keep it straight  > while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces of  > angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been  fully  > welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them  > finished. >          Brent Swain >     >  >  >  >  > -- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill" <tillrc@h...> wrote: > > The Lincoln Electric Company has published "New Lessons in ARC  > > WELDING" since 1940.  There was a 1999 Edition.  Barry Hammel in  > > Vancouver BC stocks them as would most Lincoln distributors.  The  > > larger "Proceedures Handbook" costs more and is fairly in depth.  > > Typically 7024 is intended for plate over 3/16" and is described  as  > > shallow penetration--7014 is intended for material between sheet  > > metal and heavier plate (ie. 10ga) and is designated as medium  > > penetration.  6013 is the sheet metal rod.  That said, you can  > > increase the penetration of 7024 by cranking up the heat and  > changing  > > the rod angle or; reduce the penetration of 6010/11 by reducing  > heat  > > etc. Back to control of the weld pool.  rt   > >  > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...> wrote: > > > Where do all of you get your information?  The AWS Welding  > Handbook? > > > Hope so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to rely on  my > > > textbook (Welding Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller).  In my text,  7014  > is > > > listed as "low penetration, high speed, fill-freeze".  The text  > is  > > not > > > clear, but the description for 6013 differs slightly for  > > penetration and > > > says "shallow penetration."  Not sure what the difference is  > between > > > "low" and "shallow"...any of you know?  My instructor hasn't  > > mentioned > > > 7014, but I'll ask him and pose a few questions about steel boat > > > building.  Hmmm...I really appreciate all the welding rod  > > discussion... > > >   > > > Brian > > >  > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sanderse [mailto:sanderse@p...]  > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:19 PM > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > >  > > >  > > > Agreed.  I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems.  9i > > > used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014 on > > > anything less than 3/16th. > > >  > > >  > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...] > > > > Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM > > > > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod.  By the number > > > > you will see this > > > > to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs > > > > tensile.  Can be used > > > > AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate > > > > is fair to good, > > > > vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really well: > > > > it does most things > > > > fairly well.  This rod can handle the outdoor > > > > environment better than- > > > > say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff with > > > > no problems.  Used > > > > it on the inside of the chine because I had > > > > plenty of it on hand and > > > > it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and > > > > equivilent filler metal) > > > > because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and > > > > can handle the > > > > outdoor environment.  I have welded in Canada, > > > > the UK and the US and > > > > now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal > > > > program.  Given > > > > appropriate plate set up, the most common > > > > structural defects in > > > > welding are not linked to the type of rod or > > > > filler material but to > > > > the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics > > > > and speed of travel > > > > of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding with > > > > integrity is control > > > > of the weld pool.  rt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > > > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear "look > > > > how nice those welds > > > > are, there is nothing wrong with them!"  If you > > > > didn't know that > > > > penetration makes a big difference in weld > > > > strength you'd say any of > > > > these rods are okay. > > > > > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >   From: edward_stoneuk > > > > >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:37 PM > > > > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   Gary, > > > > > > > > > >   Thanks for the info. > > > > > > > > > >   I guess that is what might be expected with > > > > using a 7024 rod > > > > >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2* means it is for > > > > flat / horizontal use > > > > >   only? > > > > > > > > > >   Regards, > > > > >   Ted Stone > > > > > > > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote: > > > > >   > Ted, > > > > >   > Assuming you could get two perfect welds > > > > with two different > > > > rods > > > > >   you probably would get two very similar > > > > strength welds.  In the > > > > real > > > > >   world that rarely happens so choosing a rod > > > > with particular > > > > >   properties will often give you a better weld. > > > >  Years ago I had a > > > > >   young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets > > > > to angle iron posts > > > > >   using 7024 welding downwards.  The welds > > > > LOOKED very nice.  I > > > > told > > > > >   him they were no good and he protested.  I > > > > struck the bracket > > > > hard > > > > >   with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! > > > > >   > > > > > >   > Earlier we were talking about mig welding. > > > > I cautioned > > > > everyone > > > > >   that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for > > > > welding anything but > > > > >   very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire > > > > because of greater > > > > >   penetration.  Every time I have said this I > > > > get tons of flack > > > > about > > > > >   it, especially from welders.  However, I have > > > > been having mild > > > > steel > > > > >   parts hot dip galvanized for many years. > > > > EVERY time someone uses > > > > >   0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld > > > > failures from lack of > > > > >   penetration.  Not every weld is bad, but when > > > > you weld thousands > > > > of > > > > >   parts that hang machinery over peoples heads > > > > how many bad welds > > > > are > > > > >   acceptable?  We reduced the failure rate to > > > > near zero simply by > > > > >   insisting in writing on our prints that no > > > > parts would be > > > > accepted if > > > > >   welded using 0.035" welding wire.  Welding > > > > with stick is no > > > > >   different, use the rod that will give you the > > > > best chance of > > > > >   producing a good weld. > > > > >   > > > > > >   > Gary H. Lucas > > > > >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >   >   From: edward_stoneuk > > > > >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 7:42 AM > > > > >   >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   Brian and Gary, > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   Thanks for your info on the rods.  Are > > > > you saying that a > > > > 60,000 > > > > >   >   p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or > > > > 6011 rod is stronger > > > > >   than > > > > >   >   the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to > > > > the same thickness > > > > given > > > > >   >   that both welds  are full thickness welds > > > > in fully prepared, > > > > >   >   chamfered and cleaned joints and that > > > > both weld metals have > > > > the > > > > >   same > > > > >   >   tensile strength?  Would a 6011 weld be > > > > stronger than a 7024 > > > > weld > > > > >   of > > > > >   >   the same thickness and quality in the same metal? > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   Because I could not get the 6011 rods and > > > > could get at least > > > > two > > > > >   >   different types of 7024 rods I wondered > > > > what qualities Brent > > > > was > > > > >   >   looking for so that I could follow his > > > > recommendations in > > > > message > > > > >   937 > > > > >   >   as closely as possible.  Following yours > > > > and others advice I > > > > have > > > > >   >   ordered a tin of 6010 which I now > > > > understand has similar > > > > >   qualities to > > > > >   >   6011 and will pick them up today together > > > > with a packet of > > > > 7024 > > > > >   as > > > > >   >   Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts > > > > of 7024 rods and so > > > > I > > > > >   took > > > > >   >   their technical reps advice on which to > > > > choose and he > > > > recommended > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly > > > > I think because > > > > that is > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   one that the distributor keeps in stock. > > > > The other rod has > > > > 160% > > > > >   weld > > > > >   >   metal recovery.  Which one would you > > > > recommend?  Who makes > > > > the > > > > >   7024 > > > > >   >   Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery > > > > is on that? > > > > >   > > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any > > > > special favouritism > > > > >   towards > > > > >   >   Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't > > > > even heard of them > > > > but > > > > >   we > > > > >   >   used them on the welding course so its > > > > probably a case of > > > > better > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   devil you know) shows five different > > > > types of 6013 rods, > > > > three of > > > > >   >   which include in their field of > > > > application statements > > > > >   shipbuilding, > > > > >   >   one of which, UNION 6013 states that it > > > > is suitable for > > > > >   shipbuilding > > > > >   >   steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, > > > > (whatever that > > > > might > > > > >   be). > > > > >   >   I have been using their Phoenix Blue N > > > > and their Phoenix Blau > > > > 30 > > > > >   >   (both 6013) on the recommendation of > > > > their supplier.  I have > > > > also > > > > >   >   used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 > > > > rods are all listed > > > > as > > > > >   >   pipeline rods which of course confirms > > > > what you say Brian. > > > > You > > > > >   can > > > > >   >   usually only weld from one side of a pipe > > > > so you need good > > > > >   >   penetration to get a strong weld.  On a > > > > ship or a tank you > > > > can > > > > >   mostly > > > > >   >   get to the other side and vee out any > > > > crud and weld to get a > > > > full > > > > >   >   penetration weld. In some cases a deep > > > > penetrating rod will > > > > tend > > > > >   to > > > > >   >   blow holes throught the plate and so a > > > > mild penetration rod > > > > or > > > > >   for > > > > >   >   that matter a quick freeze rod will make > > > > life easier.  In the > > > > >   case of > > > > >   >   the origami boats where many of the > > > > plates have to be > > > > manipulated > > > > >   >   before the finish weld is done on the > > > > other side the first > > > > weld > > > > >   has > > > > >   >   to strong enough to take that but a deep > > > > penetrating rod will > > > > >   tend to > > > > >   >   blow holes in it.  The backing of this > > > > first thick weld on > > > > the > > > > >   other > > > > >   >   side of the plate to the finish weld > > > > allows a deep > > > > penetrating > > > > >   rod to > > > > >   >   be used, which copes better with a less > > > > than perfect cleaning > > > > out > > > > >   of > > > > >   >   the vee.  I think that is what you are > > > > saying Brian.  Is the > > > > >   above a > > > > >   >   reasonable assessment?  No doubt Brent > > > > will give his views in > > > > due > > > > >   >   course. > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   My apologies if I ramble on a bit but > > > > writing things down and > > > > >   feed > > > > >   >   back from folks such as yourselves are > > > > very useful in getting > > > > >   things > > > > >   >   straight in ones mind. > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   Regards, > > > > >   >   Ted Stone > > > > >   > > > > > >   >   --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" > > > > <gary.lucas@v...> > > > > wrote: > > > > >   >   > MessageBrian, > > > > >   >   > You have it right.  Just as a point of > > > > interest.  I did a > > > > >   repair on > > > > >   >   drawbars in a truck crane. They were made > > > > from T1 steel.  I > > > > had > > > > >   to > > > > >   >   use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   > Gary H. Lucas > > > > >   >   >   ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >   >   >   From: Brian Dixon > > > > >   >   >   To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM > > > > >   >   >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   Unless I misunderstand what you are > > > > saying below, it > > > > sounds > > > > >   like > > > > >   >   you've still got some reversals of logic > > > > going on.  Here: > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of > > > > tensile strength of the > > > > filler > > > > >   >   metal, are for high strength applications > > > > because they > > > > penetrate > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   base metal deeper.  One can be used AC or > > > > DC, the other DC- > > > > only I > > > > >   >   believe...too lazy to look it up right now. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   - 6013, regardless of tensile > > > > strength of the filler > > > > metal, > > > > >   are > > > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > > > because it does *not* > > > > >   penetrate > > > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   - 7018, regardless of tensile > > > > strength of the filler > > > > metal, > > > > >   is > > > > >   >   for high strength tough applications > > > > because of not only it's > > > > >   deeper > > > > >   >   penetration but also because of it's ductility. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   - 7024, regardless of tensile > > > > strength of the filler > > > > metal, > > > > >   is > > > > >   >   *not* for high strength applications > > > > because it does *not* > > > > >   penetrate > > > > >   >   the base metal very deeply. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll > > > > guarantee he is > > > > using > > > > >   7024 > > > > >   >   Jet Rod for holding things in place until > > > > the _real_ weld > > > > (for > > > > >   >   strength) is done on the other side.  If > > > > it were up to me, > > > > I'd > > > > >   say to > > > > >   >   follow his directions exactly, even if > > > > you have to special > > > > order > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   rods.  I would not go off and weld up a > > > > boat with 7024 and > > > > 6013 > > > > >   >   unless you want it to break along those > > > > welds when you are > > > > out on > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   high seas.  Just my opinion, but I can > > > > back it up with > > > > >   information > > > > >   >   from text books and highly experienced welders. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >   Brian > > > > >   >   >     -----Original Message----- > > > > >   >   >     From: edward_stoneuk > > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > > > >   >   >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM > > > > >   >   >     To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     Brian and Gary, > > > > >   >   >     Thanks for your advice. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical > > > > rep about the welding > > > > rods > > > > >   and > > > > >   >   >     especially the 6011 and the 7024 > > > > that Brent recommended > > > > in > > > > >   his > > > > >   >   mail. > > > > >   >   >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC > > > > version of 6010. > > > > >   Thyssen > > > > >   >   is a > > > > >   >   >     German company where they tend to > > > > use only DC welders; > > > > so > > > > >   that > > > > >   >   is why > > > > >   >   >     they don't sell 6011 rods.  Neither > > > > of the two > > > > suppliers > > > > >   that I > > > > >   >   use, > > > > >   >   >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one > > > > Thyssen, keep 6010 > > > > rods > > > > >   in > > > > >   >   stock. > > > > >   >   >     They refer to them as pipeline rods > > > > so I guess they > > > > don't > > > > >   have > > > > >   >   >     any pipeline welding customers or > > > > customers that weld > > > > >   mostly > > > > >   >   from one > > > > >   >   >     side.  The rods must be kept dry > > > > and not re-dried so I > > > > >   guess > > > > >   >   unless > > > > >   >   >     you need deep penetration then a > > > > 6013 rod is easier to > > > > look > > > > >   >   after. > > > > >   >   >     My understanding of the AWS > > > > numbering system is that > > > > the > > > > >   first > > > > >   >   two > > > > >   >   >     numbers refer to the tensile > > > > strength, e.g. a 60** rod > > > > has > > > > >   a > > > > >   >   tensile > > > > >   >   >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the > > > > third number shows the > > > > >   welding > > > > >   >   >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any > > > > position, **2* equals > > > > flat > > > > >   and > > > > >   >   the > > > > >   >   >     last number I cannot remember what > > > > it means.  The 7024 > > > > rod > > > > >   is > > > > >   >   >     therefore, if I have got this > > > > right, a 70,000 psi rod > > > > >   suitable > > > > >   >   for > > > > >   >   >     flat welding.  It also has iron > > > > powder in the coating, > > > > >   which > > > > >   >   gives > > > > >   >   >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     On reflection the weld cracking on > > > > my project was > > > > caused by > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   fact > > > > >   >   >     that the weld metal was thinner > > > > than the plate and when > > > > it > > > > >   was > > > > >   >   bent > > > > >   >   >     the stress was greatest at the weld > > > > and it cracked. > > > > The > > > > >   plate > > > > >   >   was > > > > >   >   >     bent as the side was pulled > > > > together and this is before > > > > the > > > > >   >   other > > > > >   >   >     side of the join is welded.  This > > > > would be a good > > > > reason > > > > >   for > > > > >   >   using a > > > > >   >   >     rod such as the 7024 that is > > > > stronger and lays down > > > > plenty > > > > >   of > > > > >   >   steel. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     Brian your course instructor sounds > > > > a bit more > > > > >   knowledgeable > > > > >   >   than > > > > >   >   >     mine at a local technical college > > > > evening classes last > > > > >   winter. > > > > >   >   When > > > > >   >   >     I asked him about the properties of > > > > the different rods > > > > he > > > > >   >   >     replied "Well some welders like to > > > > use one sort and some > > > > >   >   >     another". > > > > >   >   >     Probably true but not the answer I > > > > was expecting. > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     Regards, > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     Ted Stone > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   > > > > > >   >   >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian > > > > Dixon" <briand@d...> > > > > wrote: > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Thanks for the additional info. > > > > I had forgotten that > > > > my > > > > >   >   instructor > > > > >   >   >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with > > > > 6010/7018 is > > > > common. > > > > >   I'll > > > > >   >   ask him > > > > >   >   >     some > > > > >   >   >     > more about that to get his > > > > feedback...he worked in > > > > >   industry > > > > >   >   for > > > > >   >   >     about 20 > > > > >   >   >     > years, and now has over 20 years > > > > as a teacher and has > > > > >   seen > > > > >   >   over > > > > >   >   >     3000 of > > > > >   >   >     > his students become > > > > certified..impressive.  He's full > > > > of > > > > >   info > > > > >   >   and > > > > >   >   >     advice > > > > >   >   >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do > > > > it.  I look for him > > > > in > > > > >   >   particular > > > > >   >   >     when > > > > >   >   >     > I sign up for classes. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > It surprises me that the one > > > > fellow's, Ed I think, > > > > >   welding > > > > >   >   supply > > > > >   >   >     shop > > > > >   >   >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd > > > > think 6010/6011 and > > > > 7018 > > > > >   would > > > > >   >   be the > > > > >   >   >     > staples of the industry and no > > > > welding shop should be > > > > >   without > > > > >   >   the > > > > >   >   >     full > > > > >   >   >     > set... > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > > > >   >   >     > From: Gary H. Lucas > > > > [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49 PM > > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Brian, > > > > >   >   >     > It all sounds about right to me. > > > > A few minor > > > > additions. > > > > >   Pipe > > > > >   >   welders > > > > >   >   >     > often use 6010 as a root pass > > > > then cap it with 7018 > > > > to > > > > >   >   eliminate > > > > >   >   >     > pinholes.  We used to do this in > > > > a plastics plant > > > > where > > > > >   we > > > > >   >   had lots > > > > >   >   >     of > > > > >   >   >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525 > > > > degrees Fahrenheit. > > > > >   7018 > > > > >   >   should be > > > > >   >   >     > kept in a heated rod oven.  If > > > > the coating picks up > > > > >   moisture > > > > >   >   it > > > > >   >   >     welds > > > > >   >   >     > poorly.  7018 will make a nice > > > > bead in the vertical > > > > >   position > > > > >   >   but the > > > > >   >   >     > very fluid slag covering takes > > > > skill to control. > > > > 6013 is > > > > >   >   popular > > > > >   >   >     for > > > > >   >   >     > low pressure water pipe welding > > > > in the greenhouse > > > > >   industry, > > > > >   >   but it > > > > >   >   >     sure > > > > >   >   >     > doesn't make very strong welds. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Gary H. Lucas > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >   >   >     > From: Brian  <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon > > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50 PM > > > > >   >   >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > I'm not building an origami boat, > > > > but am interested > > > > in > > > > >   them > > > > >   >   since > > > > >   >   >     I'm in > > > > >   >   >     > general interested in building > > > > metal boats.  I'm in > > > > the > > > > >   >   middle of > > > > >   >   >     > welding classes and working > > > > towards "all steel, all > > > > >   >   thicknesses, all > > > > >   >   >     > positions" certification.  Your > > > > note below raises > > > > several > > > > >   >   issues > > > > >   >   >     that > > > > >   >   >     > we've been covering in class, so > > > > I'll tell you what > > > > my > > > > >   book > > > > >   >   and > > > > >   >   >     teacher > > > > >   >   >     > have been saying.  Those with > > > > more practical > > > > experience > > > > >   can > > > > >   >   >     add/subtract > > > > >   >   >     > from what I'll say: > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great > > > > stuff) is very easy to > > > > >   use, > > > > >   >   but does > > > > >   >   >     not > > > > >   >   >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for back > > > > side tack welding > > > > and > > > > >   >   applications > > > > >   >   >     > where high strength is not needed. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are _deep > > > > penetrating_ fast-freeze > > > > >   electrodes > > > > >   >   that > > > > >   >   >     work > > > > >   >   >     > well for overhead and vertical > > > > welds in addition to > > > > the > > > > >   other > > > > >   >   weld > > > > >   >   >     > positions.  Works well for > > > > unbeveled joints due to > > > > >   >   their 'digging' > > > > >   >   >     > characteristic.  Requires higher > > > > skill.  Ideal for > > > > odd- > > > > >   >   position > > > > >   >   >     welding > > > > >   >   >     > where high strength is required. > > > > Downside is that > > > > these > > > > >   >   electrodes > > > > >   >   >     > spatter more. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow > > > > penetrating_ fill-freeze > > > > electrode > > > > >   >   that is > > > > >   >   >     good > > > > >   >   >     > for poor fit situations.  Good > > > > for beveled joint > > > > >   welding. > > > > >   >   This > > > > >   >   >     > electrode is a general purpose > > > > electrode for > > > > production > > > > >   >   operation > > > > >   >   >     but is > > > > >   >   >     > not for high strength applications. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > For high strength applications, > > > > my instructor > > > > recommends > > > > >   7018 > > > > >   >   for > > > > >   >   >     flat > > > > >   >   >     > and horizontal (I think) welds, > > > > but 6010 or 6011 for > > > > >   vertical > > > > >   >   and > > > > >   >   >     > overhead welds.  7024 and 6013 > > > > are fine if you don't > > > > need > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   high > > > > >   >   >     > strength.  If you have gaps, > > > > rust, galvanizing, or > > > > are > > > > >   >   welding > > > > >   >   >     pipes, > > > > >   >   >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires > > > > clean metal, otherwise > > > > you > > > > >   can > > > > >   >   get > > > > >   >   >     > porosity. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm, > > > > could be several > > > > >   problems. > > > > >   >   >     Porosity > > > > >   >   >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric > > > > contamination (a breeze > > > > >   where > > > > >   >   you were > > > > >   >   >     > welding, welding technique, > > > > contamination due to > > > > humidity > > > > >   or > > > > >   >   age > > > > >   >   >     etc.) > > > > >   >   >     > Porosity can result in a weak > > > > bead that cracks > > > > >   >   longitudinally. > > > > >   >   >     Lifting > > > > >   >   >     > the rod from the end of the weld > > > > too quickly (loss of > > > > >   >   shielding) can > > > > >   >   >     > start a crater crack which > > > > propagates.  Mismatch of > > > > rod > > > > >   to > > > > >   >   base > > > > >   >   >     metal > > > > >   >   >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With high > > > > stress on a 6013 > > > > weld, > > > > >   the > > > > >   >   crack > > > > >   >   >     may > > > > >   >   >     > have started at the > > > > filler-to-base metal interface > > > > >   because > > > > >   >   6013 > > > > >   >   >     doesn't > > > > >   >   >     > have as deep a penetration as > > > > 6011 for example.  A > > > > >   >   combination of > > > > >   >   >     the > > > > >   >   >     > above...you'll have to examine > > > > your welds to figure > > > > out > > > > >   which > > > > >   >   issue > > > > >   >   >     (s) > > > > >   >   >     > you might have.  Note: I hope I'm > > > > not too far off > > > > >   here...just > > > > >   >   >     passing on > > > > >   >   >     > class notes really, because I > > > > don't have a helluva > > > > lot of > > > > >   >   welding > > > > >   >   >     > experience yet.  Someone else > > > > might provide a more > > > > >   pragmatic > > > > >   >   >     answer, but > > > > >   >   >     > I thought I'd share what we've been told > > > > anyway...some > > > > >   things > > > > >   >   to > > > > >   >   >     think > > > > >   >   >     > about I guess.  Welding's not a > > > > simple topic and does > > > > >   require > > > > >   >   a > > > > >   >   >     > reasonably high level of > > > > expertise to get it right. > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Brian > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > -----Original Message----- > > > > >   >   >     > From: edward_stoneuk > > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...] > > > > >   >   >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:19 AM > > > > >   >   >     > To: origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   >     > Subject: [origamiboats] Welding Rods > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Brent, > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > With regard to your > > > > recommendation of 6011 and 7024 > > > > >   rods. > > > > >   >   What > > > > >   >   >     > properties are you particularly > > > > interested in?  The > > > > >   reason I > > > > >   >   ask is > > > > >   >   >     > because my usual supplier sells > > > > Thyssen rods and they > > > > >   don't > > > > >   >   do 6011 > > > > >   >   >     > although they have five types of > > > > 6013 and two of 7024 > > > > >   amongst > > > > >   >   >     > others.  I use a high frequency > > > > DC welder.  I welded > > > > the > > > > >   >   chine > > > > >   >   >     > starting from both ends.  As I > > > > pulled the bottom > > > > sheets > > > > >   >   together, > > > > >   >   >     > which causes the chine angle to > > > > change, some of the > > > > >   existing > > > > >   >   welds > > > > >   >   >     in > > > > >   >   >     > 6013 cracked longituduinally down > > > > the centre.  It is > > > > no > > > > >   >   problem to > > > > >   >   >     > grind and reweld but obviously I > > > > would like to do it > > > > >   right > > > > >   >   this > > > > >   >   >     > time.  The other thing is that > > > > the transverse join > > > > >   overlaps > > > > >   >   which > > > > >   >   >     is > > > > >   >   >     > obviously better than not meeting > > > > and understandable > > > > >   given > > > > >   >   usual > > > > >   >   >     > welding tolerances.  Do you have > > > > any advice on > > > > getting a > > > > >   >   decent fit > > > > >   >   >     > other than offering it up and > > > > trimming off? > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Regards, > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Ted Stone > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > To Post a message, send it to: > > > > origamiboats@y... > > > > >   >   >     > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > >   >   >     > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > >   >   >     > > > > > >   >   >     > Your use of Yahoo! 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971|938|2002-07-15 19:18:08|Brian Dixon|Re: Welding Rods|I must admit that after looking at the polished cross-sections of  6010/6011/6013 rods, that I came away feeling much more positive about  6013.  I mean, left to my own evils, I'd still go with the 6010/6011  because the are slightly better, BUT I'd also bet money on (someone  else's) boat that the 6013 would show no significant difference in the  field.  MILD steel boats...  Brian   > <html><body> >  >  > <tt> > Brent and everyone,<BR> > <BR> > Many thanks for your info.  Sorry I didn't reply sooner but   we've <BR>  > been away sailing, in a GRP boat.  I've now got the rods   OK.  Many <BR>  > years ago when I worked on a farm we used three types of rod: 6013   <BR>  > rods I think, cutting/gouging rods, and hard surfacing rods.  We   <BR>  > repaired and modified farm and earthmoving plant and made excavator   <BR>  > buckets that held together without problems.<BR> > <BR> > Regards,<BR> > Ted<BR> > <BR> > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" <briand@d...>   wrote:<BR>  > > I had mentioned that I'd ask my very-experienced welding   instructor <BR>  > his<BR> > > opinion on the different rods.  For boats, I don't think   he's got <BR>  > any<BR> > > experience, but here's what he had to say:<BR> > >  <BR> > >   - 6011/6010 versus 6013: Not a helluva lot of   difference.  6013 is<BR>  > > listed as having less penetration, but then he showed me a   3/8" <BR>  > plate<BR> > > with stringer welds on it...6010, 6011, and 6013 side by   side.  The<BR>  > > plate had been cut 90-degrees to the welds and polished so you   could<BR>  > > compare penetration.  The 6013 penetrated only a little   less...you <BR>  > could<BR> > > see the difference, but it wasn't a lot.  7024 was less   than all of<BR>  > > them, but was the prettiest...easy for new guys to weld with as   <BR>  > Brent<BR> > > pointed out because the shield coating is designed to   disintegrate <BR>  > at<BR> > > the right rate for maintaining the arc length...in a T-joint   for<BR>  > > example, you just poke the rod right into the groove so it   touches <BR>  > both<BR> > > sides of the joint and then drag the stick along...voila!    Perfect<BR>  > > weld...but it'll break easier than deeper penetrating <BR> > welds...depends on<BR> > > surface preparation, weld speed, and current setting.<BR> > >  <BR> > >  - 601x versus 7018 for corrosion resistance.  He   claimed that he's<BR>  > > heard rumors of that but has *never* seen anything in writing   from<BR>  > > anybody or any organization, let alone results of actual   tests.  <BR>  > Mind<BR> > > you, that doesn't mean 601x isn't less likely to corrode, it   just <BR>  > means<BR> > > my instructor didn't know.<BR> > >  <BR> > > I still think Brent's suggestions make the best sense, and as he   <BR>  > stated,<BR> > > the boat's history proves this out.<BR> > >  <BR> > > Brian<BR> > > <BR> > > -----Original Message-----<BR> > > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] <BR> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:52 PM<BR> > > To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods<BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> > > Ted <BR> > >   It's not uncommon for the chine welds to crack as   you are pulling <BR>  > > the hull together as they hinge a long way and change their   angle <BR>  > > greatly as the hull is pulled together. The cure is to climb <BR> > outside <BR> > > the hull as soon as the chine begins to come off the ground and   put <BR>  > 4 <BR> > > inch long  welds with 6011 on the outside the chine. That   way any <BR>  > > change in angle pulls away from the welds rather than toward   them.<BR>  > >   There is far less metal in the weld than in the   plate with <BR>  > welding <BR> > > on the inside only and any welding rod will tend to crack in   this <BR>  > > situation.<BR> > >   This has no bearing on the adequacy of the weld   strength in the <BR>  > > finished boat. The first 36 footer I built in 1981 , welded <BR> > entirely <BR> > > with 6011 and 7024 survived 16 days pounding on a lee shore in   12 <BR>  > > foot surf on the west coast of mexico with no major structural   <BR>  > > dammage , and was pulled off through 12 foot surf with no   dammage.<BR>  > >   Another 36 survived pounding accross 300 yards of   Fijian coral <BR>  > reef <BR> > > and was pulled off by a large tug with no major dammage, then it   <BR>  > > survived a collision with a freighter in Gibralter without   serious <BR>  > > structural dammage, no welds failed . It was welded entirely   with <BR>  > > 6011 and 7024.<BR> > >   Before we begin to worry about weld strength we   should consider <BR>  > how <BR> > > many boats have done circumnavigations while held together by   <BR>  > copper <BR> > > fastenings in red cedar every 6 inches.<BR> > >   The reason I use 7024 is because it's a lot faster   and easier to <BR>  > > use than 7018 and it's a lot easier to screw up a weld with   7018. <BR>  > the <BR> > > slag on 7018 is a lot harder to remove,7024 is dwefinitly a flat   <BR>  > > welding rod only<BR> > > While doing structural steel work they insisted I use 7018, This   <BR>  > was <BR> > > before 7018n was available in ac. They gave me cold rods and an   ac <BR>  > > machine to use. When I cut the welds open they were full of   bubbles <BR>  > > and looked like an aero bar inside, but because the right number   <BR>  > was <BR> > > on the rod they were happy.<BR> > >   When I weld the lugs on for pulling the hull   together I usually <BR>  > let <BR> > > the owner weld them on with 7024. It's often the first time   the've <BR>  > > ever tried welding. When they are no longer needed I give them a   <BR>  > > sledge hammer and let them try to break the welds . When they   are <BR>  > > totally exhausted and the lugs have finally broken , about a   half <BR>  > an <BR> > > inch up above the weld,after being bent back and forth many   times I <BR>  > > ask them if they are still worried about weld strength. Somehow   <BR>  > they <BR> > > never are.<BR> > >   6011 is ac rod, 6010 is dc. They are the only rod   which will blow <BR>  > > the slag right out of the puddle which is why until recently   they <BR>  > are <BR> > > the only rods that lloyds would approve of.The are extremely <BR> > > forgivving with regard to conditions and the shape they are   in.They <BR>  > > penetrate far better than the alternatives.<BR> > >   As any seams should be welded on one side, then all   slag ground <BR>  > out <BR> > > from the otherside before the outside weld is put on,   penetration <BR>  > is <BR> > > not that great an issue.<BR> > >   If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a 3/16th   inch plate <BR>  > with <BR> > > a single pass of 1/8th inch 7024 , then try to break it with a   <BR>  > > hammer, the 1/8th will break well away from the weld, as there   is <BR>  > > more metal in the weld than in the 1/8th inch <BR> > >   plate.                     I prefer to have the  transevese seam <BR>  > > overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parrallel, then   tack <BR>  > > the centreline end  of the overlap. Then I cut off the   overlap, <BR>  > grind <BR> > > a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together,   then <BR>  > cut <BR> > > the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the <BR> > > transeverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges   of <BR>  > > scrap plate accross the seam every foot or so ,to keep it   straight <BR>  > > while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces   of <BR>  > > angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been   <BR>  > fully <BR> > > welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them   <BR>  > > finished.<BR> > >          Brent   Swain<BR>  > >    <BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> > > <BR> > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill"   <tillrc@h...> wrote:<BR>  > > > The Lincoln Electric Company has published "New   Lessons in ARC <BR>  > > > WELDING" since 1940.  There was a 1999   Edition.  Barry Hammel in <BR>  > > > Vancouver BC stocks them as would most Lincoln   distributors.  The <BR>  > > > larger "Proceedures Handbook" costs more and is   fairly in depth. <BR>  > > > Typically 7024 is intended for plate over 3/16" and is   described <BR>  > as <BR> > > > shallow penetration--7014 is intended for material between   sheet <BR>  > > > metal and heavier plate (ie. 10ga) and is designated as   medium <BR>  > > > penetration.  6013 is the sheet metal rod.  That   said, you can <BR>  > > > increase the penetration of 7024 by cranking up the heat   and <BR>  > > changing <BR> > > > the rod angle or; reduce the penetration of 6010/11 by   reducing <BR>  > > heat <BR> > > > etc. Back to control of the weld pool.  rt  <BR> > > > <BR> > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon"   <briand@d...> wrote:<BR>  > > > > Where do all of you get your information?  The   AWS Welding <BR>  > > Handbook?<BR> > > > > Hope so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to   rely on <BR>  > my<BR> > > > > textbook (Welding Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller).    In my text, <BR>  > 7014 <BR> > > is<BR> > > > > listed as "low penetration, high speed, fill-  freeze".  The text <BR>  > > is <BR> > > > not<BR> > > > > clear, but the description for 6013 differs slightly   for <BR>  > > > penetration and<BR> > > > > says "shallow penetration."  Not sure   what the difference is <BR>  > > between<BR> > > > > "low" and "shallow"...any of you   know?  My instructor hasn't <BR>  > > > mentioned<BR> > > > > 7014, but I'll ask him and pose a few questions about   steel boat<BR>  > > > > building.  Hmmm...I really appreciate all the   welding rod <BR>  > > > discussion...<BR> > > > >  <BR> > > > > Brian<BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR> > > > > From: Sanderse [mailto:sanderse@p...] <BR> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:19 PM<BR> > > > > To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods<BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > Agreed.  I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no   problems.  9i<BR>  > > > > used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014   on<BR>  > > > > anything less than 3/16th.<BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > <BR> > > > > > -----Original Message-----<BR> > > > > > From: richytill [mailto:tillrc@h...]<BR> > > > > > Sent: July 4, 2002 7:27 PM<BR> > > > > > To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods<BR> > > > > ><BR> > > > > ><BR> > > > > > There is a 7014 "fill freeze"   rod.  By the number<BR>  > > > > > you will see this<BR> > > > > > to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs<BR> > > > > > tensile.  Can be used<BR> > > > > > AC/DC.  Penetration is reasonable, deposit   rate<BR>  > > > > > is fair to good,<BR> > > > > > vertical up is OK.  It does nothing really   well:<BR>  > > > > > it does most things<BR> > > > > > fairly well.  This rod can handle the   outdoor<BR>  > > > > > environment better than-<BR> > > > > > say-7018.  I have burned boxes of the stuff   with<BR>  > > > > > no problems.  Used<BR> > > > > > it on the inside of the chine because I had<BR> > > > > > plenty of it on hand and<BR> > > > > > it works.  In shipbuilding we use 6011   (and<BR>  > > > > > equivilent filler metal)<BR> > > > > > because it is less suceptible to electrolysis   and<BR>  > > > > > can handle the<BR> > > > > > outdoor environment.  I have welded in   Canada,<BR>  > > > > > the UK and the US and<BR> > > > > > now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades   metal<BR>  > > > > > program.  Given<BR> > > > > > appropriate plate set up, the most common<BR> > > > > > structural defects in<BR> > > > > > welding are not linked to the type of rod or<BR> > > > > > filler material but to<BR> > > > > > the appropriate temprature, arc   charecteristics<BR>  > > > > > and speed of travel<BR> > > > > > of the the weld pool.  Essentially, welding   with<BR>  > > > > > integrity is control<BR> > > > > > of the weld pool.  rt<BR> > > > > ><BR> > > > > ><BR> > > > > ><BR> > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H.   Lucas"<BR>  > > > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:<BR> > > > > > > Yes, that is true.  But I so often hear   "look<BR>  > > > > > how nice those welds<BR> > > > > > are, there is nothing wrong with them!  "  If you<BR>  > > > > > didn't know that<BR> > > > > > penetration makes a big difference in weld<BR> > > > > > strength you'd say any of<BR> > > > > > these rods are okay.<BR> > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > > Gary H. Lucas<BR> > > > > > >   ----- Original Message -----<BR> > > > > > >   From: edward_stoneuk<BR> > > > > > >   To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > > >   Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002   6:37 PM<BR>  > > > > > >   Subject: [origamiboats] Re:   Welding Rods<BR>  > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > >   Gary,<BR> > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > >   Thanks for the info.<BR> > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > >   I guess that is what might be   expected with<BR>  > > > > > using a 7024 rod<BR> > > > > > >   downhand.  Doesn't the **2*   means it is for<BR>  > > > > > flat / horizontal use<BR> > > > > > >   only?<BR> > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > >   Regards,<BR> > > > > > >   Ted Stone<BR> > > > > > ><BR> > > > > > >   --- In origamiboats@y...,   "Gary H. Lucas"<BR>  > > > > > <gary.lucas@v...> wrote:<BR> > > > > > >   > Ted,<BR> > > > > > >   > Assuming you could get two   perfect welds<BR>  > > > > > with two different<BR> > > > > > rods<BR> > > > > > >   you probably would get two very   similar<BR>  > > > > > strength welds.  In the<BR> > > > > > real<BR> > > > > > >   world that rarely happens so   choosing a rod<BR>  > > > > > with particular<BR> > > > > > >   properties will often give you a   better weld.<BR>  > > > > >  Years ago I had a<BR> > > > > > >   young guy weld some angle iron   shelf brackets<BR>  > > > > > to angle iron posts<BR> > > > > > >   using 7024 welding   downwards.  The welds<BR>  > > > > > LOOKED very nice.  I<BR> > > > > > told<BR> > > > > > >   him they were no good and he   protested.  I<BR>  > > > > > struck the bracket<BR> > > > > > hard<BR> > > > > > >   with the palm of my hand, and   handed it to him!<BR>  > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   > Earlier we were talking   about mig welding.<BR>  > > > > > I cautioned<BR> > > > > > everyone<BR> > > > > > >   that they should not use   0.035" mig wire for<BR>  > > > > > welding anything but<BR> > > > > > >   very thin metal, they should use   0.045" wire<BR>  > > > > > because of greater<BR> > > > > > >   penetration.  Every time I   have said this I<BR>  > > > > > get tons of flack<BR> > > > > > about<BR> > > > > > >   it, especially from   welders.  However, I have<BR>  > > > > > been having mild<BR> > > > > > steel<BR> > > > > > >   parts hot dip galvanized for   many years.<BR>  > > > > > EVERY time someone uses<BR> > > > > > >   0.035" mig wire to weld my   parts I get weld<BR>  > > > > > failures from lack of<BR> > > > > > >   penetration.  Not every   weld is bad, but when<BR>  > > > > > you weld thousands<BR> > > > > > of<BR> > > > > > >   parts that hang machinery over   peoples heads<BR>  > > > > > how many bad welds<BR> > > > > > are<BR> > > > > > >   acceptable?  We reduced the   failure rate to<BR>  > > > > > near zero simply by<BR> > > > > > >   insisting in writing on our   prints that no<BR>  > > > > > parts would be<BR> > > > > > accepted if<BR> > > > > > >   welded using 0.035" welding   wire.  Welding<BR>  > > > > > with stick is no<BR> > > > > > >   different, use the rod that will   give you the<BR>  > > > > > best chance of<BR> > > > > > >   producing a good weld.<BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   > Gary H. Lucas<BR> > > > > > >   >   ----- Original   Message -----<BR>  > > > > > >   >   From:   edward_stoneuk<BR>  > > > > > >   >   To:   origamiboats@y...<BR>  > > > > > >   >   Sent: Tuesday,   July 02, 2002 7:42 AM<BR>  > > > > > >   >   Subject:   [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods<BR>  > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   Brian and   Gary,<BR>  > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   Thanks for your   info on the rods.  Are<BR>  > > > > > you saying that a<BR> > > > > > 60,000<BR> > > > > > >   >   p.s.i. steel   plate welded with a 6010 or<BR>  > > > > > 6011 rod is stronger<BR> > > > > > >   than<BR> > > > > > >   >   the same plate   welded with a 6013 rod to<BR>  > > > > > the same thickness<BR> > > > > > given<BR> > > > > > >   >   that both   welds  are full thickness welds<BR>  > > > > > in fully prepared,<BR> > > > > > >   >   chamfered and   cleaned joints and that<BR>  > > > > > both weld metals have<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   same<BR> > > > > > >   >   tensile   strength?  Would a 6011 weld be<BR>  > > > > > stronger than a 7024<BR> > > > > > weld<BR> > > > > > >   of<BR> > > > > > >   >   the same   thickness and quality in the same metal?<BR>  > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   Because I could   not get the 6011 rods and<BR>  > > > > > could get at least<BR> > > > > > two<BR> > > > > > >   >   different types   of 7024 rods I wondered<BR>  > > > > > what qualities Brent<BR> > > > > > was<BR> > > > > > >   >   looking for so   that I could follow his<BR>  > > > > > recommendations in<BR> > > > > > message<BR> > > > > > >   937<BR> > > > > > >   >   as closely as   possible.  Following yours<BR>  > > > > > and others advice I<BR> > > > > > have<BR> > > > > > >   >   ordered a tin   of 6010 which I now<BR>  > > > > > understand has similar<BR> > > > > > >   qualities to<BR> > > > > > >   >   6011 and will   pick them up today together<BR>  > > > > > with a packet of<BR> > > > > > 7024<BR> > > > > > >   as<BR> > > > > > >   >   Brent   recommended. Thyssen make two sorts<BR>  > > > > > of 7024 rods and so<BR> > > > > > I<BR> > > > > > >   took<BR> > > > > > >   >   their technical   reps advice on which to<BR>  > > > > > choose and he<BR> > > > > > recommended<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   one with 180%   weld metal recovery, mainly<BR>  > > > > > I think because<BR> > > > > > that is<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   one that the   distributor keeps in stock.<BR>  > > > > > The other rod has<BR> > > > > > 160%<BR> > > > > > >   weld<BR> > > > > > >   >   metal   recovery.  Which one would you<BR>  > > > > > recommend?  Who makes<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   7024<BR> > > > > > >   >   Jet Rod and do   you know what the recovery<BR>  > > > > > is on that?<BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   The Thyssen   catalogue, (I don't have any<BR>  > > > > > special favouritism<BR> > > > > > >   towards<BR> > > > > > >   >   Thyssen rods,   in fact a year ago I hadn't<BR>  > > > > > even heard of them<BR> > > > > > but<BR> > > > > > >   we<BR> > > > > > >   >   used them on   the welding course so its<BR>  > > > > > probably a case of<BR> > > > > > better<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   devil you know)   shows five different<BR>  > > > > > types of 6013 rods,<BR> > > > > > three of<BR> > > > > > >   >   which include   in their field of<BR>  > > > > > application statements<BR> > > > > > >   shipbuilding,<BR> > > > > > >   >   one of which,   UNION 6013 states that it<BR>  > > > > > is suitable for<BR> > > > > > >   shipbuilding<BR> > > > > > >   >   steels   corresponding to Approval Grade 2,<BR>  > > > > > (whatever that<BR> > > > > > might<BR> > > > > > >   be).<BR> > > > > > >   >   I have been   using their Phoenix Blue N<BR>  > > > > > and their Phoenix Blau<BR> > > > > > 30<BR> > > > > > >   >   (both 6013) on   the recommendation of<BR>  > > > > > their supplier.  I have<BR> > > > > > also<BR> > > > > > >   >   used Oerlikon's   Fincord M, a 6013.<BR>  > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   Their 6010 rod   and for that matter 8010<BR>  > > > > > rods are all listed<BR> > > > > > as<BR> > > > > > >   >   pipeline rods   which of course confirms<BR>  > > > > > what you say Brian.<BR> > > > > > You<BR> > > > > > >   can<BR> > > > > > >   >   usually only   weld from one side of a pipe<BR>  > > > > > so you need good<BR> > > > > > >   >   penetration to   get a strong weld.  On a<BR>  > > > > > ship or a tank you<BR> > > > > > can<BR> > > > > > >   mostly<BR> > > > > > >   >   get to the   other side and vee out any<BR>  > > > > > crud and weld to get a<BR> > > > > > full<BR> > > > > > >   >   penetration   weld. In some cases a deep<BR>  > > > > > penetrating rod will<BR> > > > > > tend<BR> > > > > > >   to<BR> > > > > > >   >   blow holes   throught the plate and so a<BR>  > > > > > mild penetration rod<BR> > > > > > or<BR> > > > > > >   for<BR> > > > > > >   >   that matter a   quick freeze rod will make<BR>  > > > > > life easier.  In the<BR> > > > > > >   case of<BR> > > > > > >   >   the origami   boats where many of the<BR>  > > > > > plates have to be<BR> > > > > > manipulated<BR> > > > > > >   >   before the   finish weld is done on the<BR>  > > > > > other side the first<BR> > > > > > weld<BR> > > > > > >   has<BR> > > > > > >   >   to strong   enough to take that but a deep<BR>  > > > > > penetrating rod will<BR> > > > > > >   tend to<BR> > > > > > >   >   blow holes in   it.  The backing of this<BR>  > > > > > first thick weld on<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   other<BR> > > > > > >   >   side of the   plate to the finish weld<BR>  > > > > > allows a deep<BR> > > > > > penetrating<BR> > > > > > >   rod to<BR> > > > > > >   >   be used, which   copes better with a less<BR>  > > > > > than perfect cleaning<BR> > > > > > out<BR> > > > > > >   of<BR> > > > > > >   >   the vee.    I think that is what you are<BR>  > > > > > saying Brian.  Is the<BR> > > > > > >   above a<BR> > > > > > >   >   reasonable   assessment?  No doubt Brent<BR>  > > > > > will give his views in<BR> > > > > > due<BR> > > > > > >   >   course.<BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   My apologies if   I ramble on a bit but<BR>  > > > > > writing things down and<BR> > > > > > >   feed<BR> > > > > > >   >   back from folks   such as yourselves are<BR>  > > > > > very useful in getting<BR> > > > > > >   things<BR> > > > > > >   >   straight in   ones mind.<BR>  > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   Regards,<BR> > > > > > >   >   Ted Stone<BR> > > > > > >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   --- In   origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas"<BR>  > > > > > <gary.lucas@v...><BR> > > > > > wrote:<BR> > > > > > >   >   >   MessageBrian,<BR>  > > > > > >   >   > You have   it right.  Just as a point of<BR>  > > > > > interest.  I did a<BR> > > > > > >   repair on<BR> > > > > > >   >   drawbars in a   truck crane. They were made<BR>  > > > > > from T1 steel.  I<BR> > > > > > had<BR> > > > > > >   to<BR> > > > > > >   >   use 11018   welding rods, 110,000 psi.<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   > Gary H.   Lucas<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >   ----- Original Message -----<BR> > > > > > >   >    >   From: Brian Dixon<BR> > > > > > >   >    >   To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > > >   >    >   Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 8:15 PM<BR> > > > > > >   >    >   Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Welding Rods<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   Unless I misunderstand what you are<BR> > > > > > saying below, it<BR> > > > > > sounds<BR> > > > > > >   like<BR> > > > > > >   >   you've still   got some reversals of logic<BR>  > > > > > going on.  Here:<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   - 6010 and 6011, regardless of<BR> > > > > > tensile strength of the<BR> > > > > > filler<BR> > > > > > >   >   metal, are for   high strength applications<BR>  > > > > > because they<BR> > > > > > penetrate<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   base metal   deeper.  One can be used AC or<BR>  > > > > > DC, the other DC-<BR> > > > > > only I<BR> > > > > > >   >   believe...too   lazy to look it up right now.<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   - 6013, regardless of tensile<BR> > > > > > strength of the filler<BR> > > > > > metal,<BR> > > > > > >   are<BR> > > > > > >   >   *not* for high   strength applications<BR>  > > > > > because it does *not*<BR> > > > > > >   penetrate<BR> > > > > > >   >   the base metal   very deeply.<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   - 7018, regardless of tensile<BR> > > > > > strength of the filler<BR> > > > > > metal,<BR> > > > > > >   is<BR> > > > > > >   >   for high   strength tough applications<BR>  > > > > > because of not only it's<BR> > > > > > >   deeper<BR> > > > > > >   >   penetration but   also because of it's ductility.<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   - 7024, regardless of tensile<BR> > > > > > strength of the filler<BR> > > > > > metal,<BR> > > > > > >   is<BR> > > > > > >   >   *not* for high   strength applications<BR>  > > > > > because it does *not*<BR> > > > > > >   penetrate<BR> > > > > > >   >   the base metal   very deeply.<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   Without hearing more from Brent, I'll<BR> > > > > > guarantee he is<BR> > > > > > using<BR> > > > > > >   7024<BR> > > > > > >   >   Jet Rod for   holding things in place until<BR>  > > > > > the _real_ weld<BR> > > > > > (for<BR> > > > > > >   >   strength) is   done on the other side.  If<BR>  > > > > > it were up to me,<BR> > > > > > I'd<BR> > > > > > >   say to<BR> > > > > > >   >   follow his   directions exactly, even if<BR>  > > > > > you have to special<BR> > > > > > order<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   rods.  I   would not go off and weld up a<BR>  > > > > > boat with 7024 and<BR> > > > > > 6013<BR> > > > > > >   >   unless you want   it to break along those<BR>  > > > > > welds when you are<BR> > > > > > out on<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   high   seas.  Just my opinion, but I can<BR>  > > > > > back it up with<BR> > > > > > >   information<BR> > > > > > >   >   from text books   and highly experienced welders.<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >   Brian<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     -----Original Message-----<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     From: edward_stoneuk<BR> > > > > > [mailto:edward_stoneuk@y...]<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 4:30 PM<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Welding   Rods<BR>  > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Brian and Gary,<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Thanks for your advice.<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     I spoke to the Thyssen technical<BR> > > > > > rep about the welding<BR> > > > > > rods<BR> > > > > > >   and<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     especially the 6011 and the 7024<BR> > > > > > that Brent recommended<BR> > > > > > in<BR> > > > > > >   his<BR> > > > > > >   >   mail.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     The rep advised that 6011 is the AC<BR> > > > > > version of 6010.<BR> > > > > > >   Thyssen<BR> > > > > > >   >   is a<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     German company where they tend to<BR> > > > > > use only DC welders;<BR> > > > > > so<BR> > > > > > >   that<BR> > > > > > >   >   is why<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     they don't sell 6011 rods.    Neither<BR>  > > > > > of the two<BR> > > > > > suppliers<BR> > > > > > >   that I<BR> > > > > > >   >   use,<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     one selling Oerlikon rods and one<BR> > > > > > Thyssen, keep 6010<BR> > > > > > rods<BR> > > > > > >   in<BR> > > > > > >   >   stock.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     They refer to them as pipeline rods<BR> > > > > > so I guess they<BR> > > > > > don't<BR> > > > > > >   have<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     any pipeline welding customers or<BR> > > > > > customers that weld<BR> > > > > > >   mostly<BR> > > > > > >   >   from one<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     side.  The rods must be kept dry<BR> > > > > > and not re-dried so I<BR> > > > > > >   guess<BR> > > > > > >   >   unless<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     you need deep penetration then a<BR> > > > > > 6013 rod is easier to<BR> > > > > > look<BR> > > > > > >   >   after.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     My understanding of the AWS<BR> > > > > > numbering system is that<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   first<BR> > > > > > >   >   two<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     numbers refer to the tensile<BR> > > > > > strength, e.g. a 60** rod<BR> > > > > > has<BR> > > > > > >   a<BR> > > > > > >   >   tensile<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the<BR> > > > > > third number shows the<BR> > > > > > >   welding<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     positions, e.g. **1* equals any<BR> > > > > > position, **2* equals<BR> > > > > > flat<BR> > > > > > >   and<BR> > > > > > >   >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     last number I cannot remember what<BR> > > > > > it means.  The 7024<BR> > > > > > rod<BR> > > > > > >   is<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     therefore, if I have got this<BR> > > > > > right, a 70,000 psi rod<BR> > > > > > >   suitable<BR> > > > > > >   >   for<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     flat welding.  It also has iron<BR> > > > > > powder in the coating,<BR> > > > > > >   which<BR> > > > > > >   >   gives<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     weld metal recovery greater than 100%.<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     On reflection the weld cracking on<BR> > > > > > my project was<BR> > > > > > caused by<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   fact<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     that the weld metal was thinner<BR> > > > > > than the plate and when<BR> > > > > > it<BR> > > > > > >   was<BR> > > > > > >   >   bent<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     the stress was greatest at the weld<BR> > > > > > and it cracked.<BR> > > > > > The<BR> > > > > > >   plate<BR> > > > > > >   >   was<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     bent as the side was pulled<BR> > > > > > together and this is before<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   >   other<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     side of the join is welded.  This<BR> > > > > > would be a good<BR> > > > > > reason<BR> > > > > > >   for<BR> > > > > > >   >   using a<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     rod such as the 7024 that is<BR> > > > > > stronger and lays down<BR> > > > > > plenty<BR> > > > > > >   of<BR> > > > > > >   >   steel.<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Brian your course instructor sounds<BR> > > > > > a bit more<BR> > > > > > >   knowledgeable<BR> > > > > > >   >   than<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     mine at a local technical college<BR> > > > > > evening classes last<BR> > > > > > >   winter.<BR> > > > > > >   >   When<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     I asked him about the properties of<BR> > > > > > the different rods<BR> > > > > > he<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     replied "Well some welders like to<BR> > > > > > use one sort and some<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     another".<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Probably true but not the answer I<BR> > > > > > was expecting.<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Regards,<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Ted Stone<BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >   ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian<BR> > > > > > Dixon" <briand@d...><BR> > > > > > wrote:<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Thanks for the additional info.<BR> > > > > > I had forgotten that<BR> > > > > > my<BR> > > > > > >   >   instructor<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > mentioned that the fill/cap with<BR> > > > > > 6010/7018 is<BR> > > > > > common.<BR> > > > > > >   I'll<BR> > > > > > >   >   ask him<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     some<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > more about that to get his<BR> > > > > > feedback...he worked in<BR> > > > > > >   industry<BR> > > > > > >   >   for<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     about 20<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > years, and now has over 20 years<BR> > > > > > as a teacher and has<BR> > > > > > >   seen<BR> > > > > > >   >   over<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     3000 of<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > his students become<BR> > > > > > certified..impressive.  He's full<BR> > > > > > of<BR> > > > > > >   info<BR> > > > > > >   >   and<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     advice<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > on how NOT to do it and how TO do<BR> > > > > > it.  I look for him<BR> > > > > > in<BR> > > > > > >   >   particular<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     when<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > I sign up for classes.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > It surprises me that the one<BR> > > > > > fellow's, Ed I think,<BR> > > > > > >   welding<BR> > > > > > >   >   supply<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     shop<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > didn't have 6010/6011.  You'd<BR> > > > > > think 6010/6011 and<BR> > > > > > 7018<BR> > > > > > >   would<BR> > > > > > >   >   be the<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > staples of the industry and no<BR> > > > > > welding shop should be<BR> > > > > > >   without<BR> > > > > > >   >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     full<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > set...<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Brian<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > -----Original Message-----<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > From: Gary H. Lucas<BR> > > > > > [mailto:gary.lucas@v...]<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 5:49   PM<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     > To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welding   Rods<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Brian,<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > It all sounds about right to me.<BR> > > > > > A few minor<BR> > > > > > additions.<BR> > > > > > >   Pipe<BR> > > > > > >   >   welders<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > often use 6010 as a root pass<BR> > > > > > then cap it with 7018<BR> > > > > > to<BR> > > > > > >   >   eliminate<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > pinholes.  We used to do this   in<BR>  > > > > > a plastics plant<BR> > > > > > where<BR> > > > > > >   we<BR> > > > > > >   >   had lots<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     of<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > welded piping carrying oil at 525<BR> > > > > > degrees Fahrenheit.<BR> > > > > > >   7018<BR> > > > > > >   >   should be<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > kept in a heated rod oven.    If<BR>  > > > > > the coating picks up<BR> > > > > > >   moisture<BR> > > > > > >   >   it<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     welds<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > poorly.  7018 will make a   nice<BR>  > > > > > bead in the vertical<BR> > > > > > >   position<BR> > > > > > >   >   but the<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > very fluid slag covering takes<BR> > > > > > skill to control.<BR> > > > > > 6013 is<BR> > > > > > >   >   popular<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     for<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > low pressure water pipe welding<BR> > > > > > in the greenhouse<BR> > > > > > >   industry,<BR> > > > > > >   >   but it<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     sure<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > doesn't make very strong welds.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Gary H. Lucas<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > ----- Original Message -----<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > From: Brian    <mailto:briand@d...> Dixon<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     > To: origamiboats@y...<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 12:50   PM<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Welding   Rods<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > I'm not building an origami boat,<BR> > > > > > but am interested<BR> > > > > > in<BR> > > > > > >   them<BR> > > > > > >   >   since<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     I'm in<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > general interested in building<BR> > > > > > metal boats.  I'm in<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   >   middle of<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > welding classes and working<BR> > > > > > towards "all steel, all<BR> > > > > > >   >   thicknesses,   all<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     > positions" certification.    Your<BR>  > > > > > note below raises<BR> > > > > > several<BR> > > > > > >   >   issues<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     that<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > we've been covering in class, so<BR> > > > > > I'll tell you what<BR> > > > > > my<BR> > > > > > >   book<BR> > > > > > >   >   and<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     teacher<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > have been saying.  Those with<BR> > > > > > more practical<BR> > > > > > experience<BR> > > > > > >   can<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     add/subtract<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > from what I'll say:<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     >   - 7024, aka "Jet   Rod" (great<BR>  > > > > > stuff) is very easy to<BR> > > > > > >   use,<BR> > > > > > >   >   but does<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     not<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > penetrate deeply.  Good for   back<BR>  > > > > > side tack welding<BR> > > > > > and<BR> > > > > > >   >   applications<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > where high strength is not needed.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     >   - 6010 & 6011 are   _deep<BR>  > > > > > penetrating_ fast-freeze<BR> > > > > > >   electrodes<BR> > > > > > >   >   that<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     work<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > well for overhead and vertical<BR> > > > > > welds in addition to<BR> > > > > > the<BR> > > > > > >   other<BR> > > > > > >   >   weld<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > positions.  Works well for<BR> > > > > > unbeveled joints due to<BR> > > > > > >   >     their 'digging'<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     > characteristic.  Requires   higher<BR>  > > > > > skill.  Ideal for<BR> > > > > > odd-<BR> > > > > > >   >   position<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     welding<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > where high strength is required.<BR> > > > > > Downside is that<BR> > > > > > these<BR> > > > > > >   >   electrodes<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > spatter more.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     >   - 6013 is a _shallow<BR> > > > > > penetrating_ fill-freeze<BR> > > > > > electrode<BR> > > > > > >   >   that is<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     good<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > for poor fit situations.    Good<BR>  > > > > > for beveled joint<BR> > > > > > >   welding.<BR> > > > > > >   >   This<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > electrode is a general purpose<BR> > > > > > electrode for<BR> > > > > > production<BR> > > > > > >   >   operation<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     but is<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > not for high strength   applications.<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > For high strength applications,<BR> > > > > > my instructor<BR> > > > > > recommends<BR> > > > > > >   7018<BR> > > > > > >   >   for<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     flat<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > and horizontal (I think) welds,<BR> > > > > > but 6010 or 6011 for<BR> > > > > > >   vertical<BR> > > > > > >   >   and<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > overhead welds.  7024 and   6013<BR>  > > > > > are fine if you don't<BR> > > > > > need<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   high<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > strength.  If you have gaps,<BR> > > > > > rust, galvanizing, or<BR> > > > > > are<BR> > > > > > >   >   welding<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     pipes,<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > use 6010/6011.  7018 requires<BR> > > > > > clean metal, otherwise<BR> > > > > > you<BR> > > > > > >   can<BR> > > > > > >   >   get<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > porosity.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     ><BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > For your cracking problem, hmmmm,<BR> > > > > > could be several<BR> > > > > > >   problems.<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     Porosity<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > is one, e.g. from atmospheric<BR> > > > > > contamination (a breeze<BR> > > > > > >   where<BR> > > > > > >   >   you were<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > welding, welding technique,<BR> > > > > > contamination due to<BR> > > > > > humidity<BR> > > > > > >   or<BR> > > > > > >   >   age<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     etc.)<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > Porosity can result in a weak<BR> > > > > > bead that cracks<BR> > > > > > >   >     longitudinally.<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     Lifting<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > the rod from the end of the weld<BR> > > > > > too quickly (loss of<BR> > > > > > >   >   shielding)   can<BR>  > > > > > >   >    >     > start a crater crack which<BR> > > > > > propagates.  Mismatch of<BR> > > > > > rod<BR> > > > > > >   to<BR> > > > > > >   >   base<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     metal<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     > (doesn't apply here.)  With   high<BR>  > > > > > stress on a 6013<BR> > > > > > weld,<BR> > > > > > >   the<BR> > > > > > >   >   crack<BR> > > > > > >   >    >     may<BR> > > > > > >   >    >   &nb<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated) |
972|972|2002-07-16 13:01:01|rbyzitter2001|Lincoln welder.|Hello, I have a Lincoln, "IdealArc" 250amp, ac/dc Industrial welder  here with 50' of both ground and hot cable.  Vancouver area,  $250.00.  Cheers.|
973|938|2002-07-16 17:58:40|brentswain38|Re: Welding Rods|6013 works just fine for boatbuilding. Provided you open up the seams  by beveling the edges for full penetration you'll have no problems  with 6013.      Brent Swain|
974|974|2002-07-26 18:19:16|paull01|31 vs 36|Brent,   I was wondering how you would compare the 31 vs the 36, having owned  and lived aboard both of them. You said that the toughest choice you  had to make was whether to go with 1 or two keels. Was the choice of  the 31 vs the 36 a tough choice? I'm debating the two sizes. I would  be a first time builder and cruiser - planning on going out for a  long time. At this point I'm on my own, but hope to perhaps find mate (matess...) along the way. I'm planning to do a lot of off the beaten  path shoal/river exploration. Is the 31 just a whole lot easier to  single hand?  Paul  Seattle, WA|
975|975|2002-07-26 18:52:42|james floyd|weight|Brent,      How much steel (in pounds) does it take to build your 40 footer? Is the hull 1/4" or 3/16"?      I am delighted with your book. When will you be leaving on another cruise? Can plans be purchased when you are elsewhere?                                 Thanks,                                James Floyd                   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com|
976|974|2002-07-26 19:08:47|Phillip Allen|Re: 31 vs 36|http://www.cruisingworld.com/forums/genlmesg/index.pl  Check the above link to Cruising World bullitin board.  I've been reading for quite a while and have gotten some good info from these people.  Feel free to jump in with questions...there may be an occasional snob...ignore them :)       Phillip Allen (NW Arkansas)    --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
980|980|2002-07-29 01:32:57|misterinbetween2002|A safe, secure, inexpensive site to build your boat|Anyone contemplating building a boat but lacking their own site.  I  offer outdoor space with ample electricity on a farm in the mid  vancouver island area.  Currently three Swain 36 footers are on site  in varying stages of completion.  Rent is $100 per month for the  duration of your project.  Living accomodation is occasionally  available on the farm and also exists in the surrounding area. For  info email me at kvanwest@...|
981|938|2002-07-29 08:34:29|ajcalla|Re: Welding Rods|I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been  addressed but here it is. How AWS classifies steel welding electrode.   The "E" indicates Electrode used in arc welding. The first two (sometimes three)digits indicate tensile strength in  thousands of psi.  The third ( sometimes the forth) indicates in which position or  positions the electrode can be used. 0 = means this classification is not used 1 = All positions 2 = Flat and Horiz 3 = Flat only  The forth (sometimes Fifth) indicates the type of flux coating and  the recommended power supply 0 = means the type of flux and power supply is determined by the  third digit  1 = cellulose potassium / AC, DCRP, DCSP 2 = Titania sodium / AC, DCSP 3 = Titania potassium / AC, DCSP, DCRP 4 = Iron powder titania / AC, DCSP, DCRP 5 = Low hydrogen sodium / DCRP 6 = Low hydrogen potassium / AC, DCRP 7 = Iron powder iron oxide / AC, DCSP 8 = Iron powder low hydrogen / AC, DCRP, DCSP  This does not apply to stainless steel electrode. Low hydrogen rods were developed to prevent the cracking which  occured when welding high strength alloy steels. All Carbon Steel  plate these days is an alloy. They'r alloyed for a number of diferent  characteristics not the least of which is higher strength. When stick welding I use 6010 (pipe rod) to keyhole weld low pressure  non-critical systems. I use 6011 when I need to weld through rust,  heavy scale, and paint (garbage welding), I use mil-spec 7018 on  almost everything else. No other rod I've used does as nice a job in  all positions on carbon steel than 7018. Except don't use ESAB 3/32"  atomarc 7018 rod. I've found many lots of this rod have an uneven  flux coating which can be cause some horrible welds. Just some stuff to think about.  John|
982|982|2002-08-02 00:27:33|oliviadrabbe|Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo|Hi, I've been lurking on this list for several months and am firmly  convinced that a Swain is going to be our future boat. Perhaps it'll  be sooner rather than later. This months Boat Journal shows a Swain 30 in Nanaimo. Does anyone  know this boat? She would be a great size for us and seems reasonably  well equipped but I don't want to get too excited about her as I'm  not the most experienced metal boat person in the world. I'm not sure  of the etiquette of asking the lists opinion on a specific boat but  I'm going to ask anyway and expect to be corrected if I'm out of line. Please feel free to reply off list if anyone has any comments. Thanks! Mary starboard62@...|
983|982|2002-08-02 14:24:40|Alan Smith|Re: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo|Mary,  That would probably be mine. Please feel free ask anything you like.  Al   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com|
984|982|2002-08-02 14:46:24|Stephen Wandling|Re: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo|Is this Brent's original Simplicity?  Alan Smith wrote:   >  Mary, > > That would probably be mine. Please feel free ask > anything you like. > > Al    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
985|982|2002-08-02 16:04:50|Doug Barnard|Buehler designs|Well, doesn't have too much to do with Swain frameless construction, but some nuggets can still be gleamed from a perusal...  I guess that George Buehler was the one to blame for my interest in building a cruising boat. Reading his "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding" got me all fired up, and here I am today, still ready to go. Lots of good info, especially as to interior or sub-assemblies can be had from his books. He's got a new website:  http://dieselducks.com/index.html  It discusses his trawler yachts, and there's some great pics of details from Seahorse Marine, a shipyard in China that's building Diesel Ducks on order.   Too bad that Buehler hasn't adapted his plans to a high-speed building/frameless approach, and that his boats all look destined for cold climates. Still, I respect his iconoclastic approach to boat design! Just ain't for me.  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard  currently in custom Skipjack 20 stern drive soon-to-be beginning construction  Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" near Ventura, CA http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream|
986|982|2002-08-05 18:07:48|Alan Smith|Re: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo|Steve,  Yes it is Brent's original Simplicity.  Al   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com|
987|987|2002-08-06 06:13:23|kupris1948|wiley type, swing in  portholes, does anybody have experience with |for anybody wondering what they are, the pane of glass can be lifted  out, wedged closed, wedged open at 25 degrees pivoting at the bottom  to allow air in but rain to drain out, quick change for screens or  sun shade,easey to make, drop in storm shutters possible. They seem  perfect for a metal boat so there must be something wrong with them.|
988|987|2002-08-06 12:38:15|Doug Barnard|Re: wiley type, swing in  portholes, does anybody have experience w|> From: kupris1948 [mailto:kupris1948@...]     > for anybody wondering what they are, the pane of glass can be lifted  > out, wedged closed, wedged open at 25 degrees pivoting at the bottom  > to allow air in but rain to drain out, quick change for screens or  > sun shade,easey to make, drop in storm shutters possible. They seem  > perfect for a metal boat so there must be something wrong with them.   I've seen a website for a similar item: http://www.trikini.com/BAPORT/Baport.htm  It seems to me that I'd want to see a great implementation of these before committing. As I plan to take my boat to the tropics, I keep going 'round and 'round about opening ports off the centerline. Whether to go for ventilation or offshore security. As the cost of new Lewmar ports roughly equals the cost of steel for the boat (!), this is a fairly big deal.  Maybe bolt-on-the-outside Lexan storm shutters?  ______________________________________________ Doug Barnard  currently in custom Skipjack 20 stern drive soon-to-be beginning construction  Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" near Ventura, CA http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream|
989|987|2002-08-06 16:17:06|John Olson|Re: wiley type, swing in  portholes, does anybody have experience w|Where there's big green waves smashing over the top of my boat, the last thing I want is removable windows.  Keep it watertight!  If you want ventilation, open a hatch (if you dare!)  Cheers  John Eclectus (Swain 31)   ----- Original Message -----  > Message: 2 >    Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 10:13:21 -0000 >    From: "kupris1948" <kupris1948@...> > Subject: wiley type, swing in  portholes, does anybody have experience with them > > for anybody wondering what they are, the pane of glass can be lifted > out, wedged closed, wedged open at 25 degrees pivoting at the bottom > to allow air in but rain to drain out, quick change for screens or > sun shade,easey to make, drop in storm shutters possible. They seem > perfect for a metal boat so there must be something wrong with them. >    --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 24/07/02 |
990|990|2002-08-07 02:23:06|Gord Schnell|Re: wiley type, swing in  portholes,does anybody have experience wi|A friend of mine, we will call him Paul, went to a good deal of effort to manufacture and install these on his Brent 36. He is now in Fiji and has removed them all after making many attempts to seal them.  Personally, I choose not to open anything on the outside of my boat and only on top near the centerline. Add dorades with sealable closings. Gord   Doug Barnard wrote:  >  > > From: kupris1948 [mailto:kupris1948@...] >  > > for anybody wondering what they are, the pane of glass > can be lifted > > out, wedged closed, wedged open at 25 degrees pivoting > at the bottom > > to allow air in but rain to drain out, quick change for > screens or > > sun shade,easey to make, drop in storm shutters > possible. They seem > > perfect for a metal boat so there must be something > wrong with them. >  > I've seen a website for a similar item: > http://www.trikini.com/BAPORT/Baport.htm >  > It seems to me that I'd want to see a great implementation > of these > before committing. As I plan to take my boat to the > tropics, I keep > going 'round and 'round about opening ports off the > centerline. Whether > to go for ventilation or offshore security. As the cost of > new Lewmar > ports roughly equals the cost of steel for the boat (!), > this is a > fairly big deal. >  > Maybe bolt-on-the-outside Lexan storm shutters? >  > ______________________________________________ > Doug Barnard > currently in custom Skipjack 20 stern drive > soon-to-be beginning construction > Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" > near Ventura, CA > http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream >  >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >                        ADVERTISEMENT >                           [Image] >  > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
991|991|2002-08-08 14:25:47|winslow59|MBS Fest|Any origamiboat-folk gonna be at the Metal Boat Society Annual  Festival this weekend?  9-11 August, 2002 in Vancouver (not B.C.) Washington (not D.C.)  more info here:  http://www.metalboatsociety.com  -Markus|
992|992|2002-08-12 18:04:26|edward_stoneuk|Anchor Well|In the photos some boats have anchor wells and some don't seem to.  I  would appreciate views as to the pros and cons of an anchor well  especially with regard to boat strength, anchor handling and  ventilation.  Regards,  Ted|
993|991|2002-08-13 19:45:23|brentswain38|Re: MBS Fest|If it were still at Oak Harbour , close to home , and where I can  camp on the lawn, I wouldn't miss it. Vancouver Wa is a long way and  it looks like an expensive  hotel is the only camping option. I won't  make it, but there will probably be some origami folks from  Washington there.   Brent Swain   brentswain38@...   --- In origamiboats@y..., "winslow59" <winslow59@y...> wrote: > Any origamiboat-folk gonna be at the Metal Boat Society Annual  > Festival this weekend? >  > 9-11 August, 2002 in Vancouver (not B.C.) Washington (not D.C.) >  > more info here: >  > http://www.metalboatsociety.com >  > -Markus |
994|992|2002-08-13 20:01:49|brentswain38|Re: Anchor Well|My first boat didn't have an anchor well. After dragging anchor in  Whangarei NZ I sailed to the Bay of Islands with an offshore wind.  I'd forgot to store the anchor rode properly, which was no problem  with an offshore wind. When I turned the corner to beat into the Bay  of Islands, 200 ft of anchor rode went over the side. I learned the  hard way , the disadvantages of having absolutely nowhere to put  anything down foreward of the cockpit, where it won't jump overboard.    Anchor well is a bit of a misnomer. Actually I use it for spare  anchor rode, kellets, shore lines , pliers, etc. It sure beats having  to go all the way aft whenever you need something in a hurry .   Structuraly, I put a 2 inch sch 40 pipe between the doubler plate  for the mooring bit and the bottom of the bow roller , which would  take a phenomenal amount of compression in a collision. The lid and  cover are hinged and bolted to this compression post.    The whole anchor well is a huge dorade box for ventilation. Lately  we have been putting a cowl vent on the lid and putting the vent pipe  in the back of the anchorwell off to the lid side of the well. These  can be conected by the plastic corrugated pipe common in building  supply stores. This way air goes in, but water leaks into the well  and overboard. A bailer type stainless scoop facing aft stops water  from forcing it's way into the well when you punch into a head sea..  Welding a couple of pieces of 3/8th ich rod accross the vent in the  aft end of the well with a stainless 1/2 inch nut welded in the  middle lets you make a spin shut plate with a piece of stainless  ready rod with a t handle welded on.                                    Brent Swain                                    brentswain38@...   --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" <edward_stoneuk@y...>  wrote:  > In the photos some boats have anchor wells and some don't seem to.    I   > would appreciate views as to the pros and cons of an anchor well  > especially with regard to boat strength, anchor handling and  > ventilation. >  > Regards, >  > Ted |
995|995|2002-08-15 16:51:34|alex_christie|new photos added |Dear Group,  I've added some photos of Brent and my trip to Campbell River, where  we went to see 3 different Swain 36 footers all at the same dock. The  black hulled boat (can't remember the name) is quite old and has held  up very well.    The Dove II is Winston Bushnell's(captain of the Dove III, a 26  footer which traversed the Northwest Passage in the Arctic Ocean)old  36, the original steel Dove, and he now has another one recently  launched.  Some close-up photos were taken of the rotted wooden boom- crutch to show how mating wood to steel eventually results in the  wood rotting -- but each to his own, right?  One can reason that the  wood block lasted a long time, and is easily replaced.  Timo's nice white boat was one of the finest examples of a Swain 36  I've ever seen. Have a look at some of the hand-made metalwork such  as his snatchblocks and nice taffrail seats ---inspiring!  All photos can be found in the file, "Campbell River Field Trip".  Alex  (moderator)|
996|996|2002-08-15 18:21:04|edward_stoneuk|Ballast|Brent, In the drawings for a 36', in drg. 1, it states "KEEL 5700 BALLAST  4500 lbs".  What does KEEL 5700 mean?  What amount of ballast do you  recommend for a twin keel boat and where do you recommend it is  placed? Regards, Ted|
997|854|2002-08-17 12:35:35|Betty Forster|Re: new photos added|Hi there:  I'm not much of a computer expert and I can't seem to find a file called campbell river field trip.  I don't know if it's not there or I'm just not looking in the right places.  Any suggestions Martin (prairiemaid)...  ----- Original Message ----- From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@...> To: <origamiboats@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: [origamiboats] new photos added   > Dear Group, > > I've added some photos of Brent and my trip to Campbell River, where > we went to see 3 different Swain 36 footers all at the same dock. The > black hulled boat (can't remember the name) is quite old and has held > up very well. > > The Dove II is Winston Bushnell's(captain of the Dove III, a 26 > footer which traversed the Northwest Passage in the Arctic Ocean)old > 36, the original steel Dove, and he now has another one recently > launched.  Some close-up photos were taken of the rotted wooden boom- > crutch to show how mating wood to steel eventually results in the > wood rotting -- but each to his own, right?  One can reason that the > wood block lasted a long time, and is easily replaced. > > Timo's nice white boat was one of the finest examples of a Swain 36 > I've ever seen. Have a look at some of the hand-made metalwork such > as his snatchblocks and nice taffrail seats ---inspiring! > > All photos can be found in the file, "Campbell River Field Trip". > > Alex > > (moderator) > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
998|854|2002-08-17 13:16:04|alex_christie|photo locations|Hi Betty,  The photos I have recently uploaded are located by clicking on the  word "Photos" on the menu bar at the left hand side of your screen.   You may have clicked on "Files" by mistake (this used to be the only  place for photos until Yahoo created a dedicated photo section, so  there are also a lot of photos in there from the early days of the  group site).  I may have lent some confusion to the situation by  using the word "file", I don't know.  Once you are in the Photos section, the Campbell River Fieldtrip  album is located in the last column of the second row.  Make sure you are signed in as the words in the menu, though visible  (as black letters), won't be clickable (blue letters).  If you or anyone has further problems, just let me know and I'll  check it out.  Alex Christie  (moderator)    --- In origamiboats@y..., "Betty Forster" <bforster@i...> wrote: > Hi there:  I'm not much of a computer expert and I can't seem to  find a file > called campbell river field trip.  I don't know if it's not there  or I'm > just not looking in the right places.  Any suggestions Martin > (prairiemaid)... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "alex_christie" <origamiboats@t...> > To: <origamiboats@y...> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 2:51 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] new photos added >  >  > > Dear Group, > > > > I've added some photos of Brent and my trip to Campbell River,  where > > we went to see 3 different Swain 36 footers all at the same dock.  The > > black hulled boat (can't remember the name) is quite old and has  held > > up very well. > > > > The Dove II is Winston Bushnell's(captain of the Dove III, a 26 > > footer which traversed the Northwest Passage in the Arctic Ocean) old > > 36, the original steel Dove, and he now has another one recently > > launched.  Some close-up photos were taken of the rotted wooden  boom- > > crutch to show how mating wood to steel eventually results in the > > wood rotting -- but each to his own, right?  One can reason that  the > > wood block lasted a long time, and is easily replaced. > > > > Timo's nice white boat was one of the finest examples of a Swain  36 > > I've ever seen. Have a look at some of the hand-made metalwork  such > > as his snatchblocks and nice taffrail seats ---inspiring! > > > > All photos can be found in the file, "Campbell River Field Trip". > > > > Alex > > > > (moderator) > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > |
999|999|2002-08-17 15:58:34|meademd@aol.com|Re: photos|Alex, Thanks for the new photos. I have been studying them since you posted them. I see there is room for diversity in the construction of this style boat.  What with the Junk rig, the different style pilot houses, hand rails, and  other details.  BTW, I was so happy to find this site. I was in Ladysmith and Nanaimo  visiting this summer with Brent and others and admiring and studying the  boat. One of the owners there put me on to this site.   I am in Florida, struggling along and having a great time putting this thing  together. If any one else is in Florida I would like to get together with them.  Bob Meade Leesburg FL     [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
1000|1000|2002-08-20 01:40:54|de_anander|newbie inquiry|Can anyone tell me more about the "Shaler Junk" in the pictures section?  I'm very interested in junk schooners.  Would like to get in touch with the owner, if that would be OK, and ask a bunch of questions.  thanks  de|