1001|1000|2002-08-20 01:44:23|Stephen Wandling|Re: newbie inquiry|It's owned by Evan Shaler of Nanaimo. He designed it as a replica of Allan Farrell's "China Cloud". His email address is: evanmoonjunk@... de_anander wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me more about the "Shaler Junk" in the pictures > section? > > I'm very interested in junk schooners. Would like to get in touch > with the owner, if that would be OK, and ask a bunch of questions. > > thanks > > de > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1002|1002|2002-08-20 08:14:06|Newbarndesign|Book order|Hi: This message is for Brent, I sent him an e-mail but wasn't sure if he got it. I sent a check and an order for a book several weeks ago but have'nt heard anything, just wondering if he got the order? Thanks Phil Sacchitella| 1003|1003|2002-08-22 14:32:23|capt_john2002|Drawings|Could someone provide a drawing or something to show the layout or how the cabins are set up, tankage, engine arrangment, sail plan, etc. etc. et| 1004|1004|2002-08-23 11:42:33|prairiemaidca|skeg cooling:|Hi everyone. I need some advise out here on the prairie. I'm ready to install my skeg and I would like to know if the inlet and outlets for the coolant can just be nipples through the hull into the skeg or does the coolant returning to the engine need to have a pipe to the bottom of the skeg??? Thanks Martin....| 1005|1004|2002-08-24 00:34:03|Gord Schnell|Re: skeg cooling:|Return pipe needs to go to the bottom of the skeg as coolant will stratify by temperature. Gord prairiemaidca wrote: > > Hi everyone. I need some advise out here on the prairie. > I'm ready > to install my skeg and I would like to know if the inlet > and outlets > for the coolant can just be nipples through the hull into > the skeg or > does the coolant returning to the engine need to have a > pipe to the > bottom of the skeg??? Thanks Martin.... > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1006|1006|2002-08-24 14:49:18|capt_john2002|Skeg Kooling|Hot water molecules being less dense would tend to remain near the top of the skeg so, to allow a more complete exchange of heat you should have your pickup near the bottom... be co| 1007|1007|2002-08-25 18:05:01|tom spanos|for sale|I have a friend who is moving to California. He has the 36 footer, cutter rigged, twin keels. I told him to check out this site but he's busy and doesn't do what I tell him. The boat is here in Bellingham but he is now talking about taking it down to Gove's Cove for consignment on Lake Union in Seattle. Interested parties, questions? I'll answer or relay the message. Tom Spanos --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1008|1007|2002-08-25 20:02:33|robin roberts|Re: for sale|robin roberts here, what's the price tag? i am close to bellingham , thanks tom spanos wrote: I have a friend who is moving to California. He has the 36 footer, cutter rigged, twin keels. I told him to check out this site but he's busy and doesn't do what I tell him. The boat is here in Bellingham but he is now talking about taking it down to Gove's Cove for consignment on Lake Union in Seattle. Interested parties, questions? I'll answer or relay the message. Tom Spanos --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1009|1007|2002-08-26 12:16:06|tom spanos|36 footer|Robin I'm guessing 20K. If you get a chance to do a drive-by: she's light gray, anchored east of the Alaska State Ferry Terminal at the south end of Bellingham Bay. TOM robin roberts wrote: robin roberts here, what's the price tag? i am close to bellingham , thanks tom spanos wrote: I have a friend who is moving to California. He has the 36 footer, cutter rigged, twin keels. I told him to check out this site but he's busy and doesn't do what I tell him. The boat is here in Bellingham but he is now talking about taking it down to Gove's Cove for consignment on Lake Union in Seattle. Interested parties, questions? I'll answer or relay the message. Tom Spanos --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1010|1002|2002-08-26 19:49:37|brentswain38|Re: Book order|The book is in the mail. Thanks. Brent brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" wrote: > Hi: > This message is for Brent, I sent him an e-mail but wasn't sure if > he got it. I sent a check and an order for a book several weeks > ago but have'nt heard anything, just wondering if he got the > order? > Thanks > Phil Sacchitella | 1011|996|2002-08-26 19:53:14|brentswain38|Re: Ballast|The 5700 is the total weight of the keel. There is roughly 1,000 lbs of steel and the remaining 4500 lbs is lead. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Brent, > In the drawings for a 36', in drg. 1, it states "KEEL 5700 BALLAST > 4500 lbs". What does KEEL 5700 mean? What amount of ballast do you > recommend for a twin keel boat and where do you recommend it is > placed? > Regards, > Ted | 1012|1002|2002-08-26 19:59:59|brentswain38|Re: Book order|On my drawings for the twin keeler , for the leading edges of the keel I distinctly specify solid shaft. Some people have been substituting pipe for the solid shaft. No matter how much lead you pour behind a pipe, it will flatten out the first time you hit a rock. One builder is putting ease of construction ahead of seaworthiness. If you hire someone to build one of my twin keelers, insist that he follow the plans. If he refuses, fire him and hire someone who will follow the plans. Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" wrote: > The book is in the mail. Thanks. Brent > brentswain38@y... > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Newbarndesign" wrote: > > Hi: > > This message is for Brent, I sent him an e-mail but wasn't sure if > > he got it. I sent a check and an order for a book several weeks > > ago but have'nt heard anything, just wondering if he got the > > order? > > Thanks > > Phil Sacchitella | 1013|1007|2002-08-27 10:28:34|kwing175|Re: 36 footer for sale|Tom, Any chance that particulars are available? Information such as, vessel age, engine make&model, what kind of insulation, photos that could be posted to the web,nav equipment, etc. Actually any broker's web page can indicate the type of information to be provided. Publishing this information will help your friend sell his boat. I use a check list when looking at boats. I could e-mail a copy to be filled out. It is more extensive than necessary for a casual look but, the pertinent facts could be listed. Let me know. Regards, Keith > I'm guessing 20K. If you get a chance to do a drive-by: she's light gray, anchored east of the Alaska State Ferry Terminal at the south end of Bellingham Bay. > He has the 36 footer, cutter rigged, twin keels. | 1014|996|2002-08-27 12:36:48|edward_stoneuk|Re: Ballast|Thanks Brent, Is it the same for amount of lead or more for a bilge keeler and where is it put? For instance are the keels filled up level or is more weight needed towards the front of the keels as is necessary on some boats? Regards, Ted| 1015|1003|2002-08-27 12:58:51|edward_stoneuk|Re: Drawings|Capt_john2002, In most cases boat designers, although they might make suggestions and draw cabin plans leave these details to the builders as the owner's requirements of, say number of crew/berths, distance to be travelled and therefore tankage, type and power rating of the engine and even sail layout vary so. I have study plans, full plans and catalogues from Bruce Roberts, Tom Colvin, Jay Benford, George Beuhler and that is more or less the same for everyone. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@y..., "capt_john2002" wrote: > Could someone provide a drawing or something to show the layout or how > the cabins are set up, tankage, engine arrangment, sail plan, etc. > etc. et | 1016|1016|2002-08-28 13:51:09|capt_john2002|Book?|I gave your address to my local nautical book store and am eagerly awaiting delivery of your book, maybe Toronto will like your design as I d| 1017|1017|2002-08-29 00:52:42|capt_john2002|opening portlights|or starboard lights for the other side of the boat. An aquaintance of mine, actually a few, have made their own portlights out of wood and used little plastic sign letters to add their boat name to the frame and then took the pieces to a foundry and had more than enough made up. They used "alluma-bronze" a mix of aluminium & Bronze, said to be real tough and won't tarnish. Basicaly you'll pay for the cost of the metal used then it's off to the machine shop to trim off the exess metal, cut groooves for seals, space for glass (glass in my old tug's portlights were 3/4" to an inch thick) but GLASS, remember...plastic will scratch easier than glass but it is easier to work with. For those really nasty days, you may want to add some deadlights, (those metal covers over the the glass that don't break) just added security.| 1018|996|2002-08-29 15:10:55|brentswain38|Re: Ballast|The amount of ballast is the same total whether for a single or twin keel, 4500 lbs, half in each keel for the twin keeler . So far all the lead has been put level with the waterline, and the boats float level. However, there is a lot more storage space aft than foreward, so it doesn't hurt to favour putting the lead a bit deeper further foreward to offset the eventual extra weight in the stern. Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Thanks Brent, > Is it the same for amount of lead or more for a bilge keeler and > where is it put? For instance are the keels filled up level or is > more weight needed towards the front of the keels as is necessary on > some boats? > Regards, > Ted | 1019|996|2002-08-29 15:15:36|brentswain38|Re: Ballast|The total ballast is the same, 4500 lbs whether for the single or twin keeler . For the twin keeler put half in each keel.Normally the ballast is poured in level with the waterline and the boat will float level . However there is a lot more storage space aft in a boat than foreward, so it doesn't hurt to favour making the lead a bit deeper in the front of the keel to compensate for the eventual extra weight aft. Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Thanks Brent, > Is it the same for amount of lead or more for a bilge keeler and > where is it put? For instance are the keels filled up level or is > more weight needed towards the front of the keels as is necessary on > some boats? > Regards, > Ted | 1020|1003|2002-08-29 15:21:30|brentswain38|Re: Drawings|I could get Alex to scan in a basic drawing of the tankage and a simple interior layout when I see him next. Basically for the single keeler the area above the ballast, up to the floor is water tankage and the space in the keel behind the ballast is fuel tankage. For the twin keeler, the space between the keels is water and fuel tankage is built in below the wheelhouse floor. All tanks are built in as that provides the easiest access to the hull, being the bottom of the tank and the least weight and the easiest construction. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Capt_john2002, > > In most cases boat designers, although they might make suggestions > and draw cabin plans leave these details to the builders as the > owner's requirements of, say number of crew/berths, distance to be > travelled and therefore tankage, type and power rating of the engine > and even sail layout vary so. I have study plans, full plans and > catalogues from Bruce Roberts, Tom Colvin, Jay Benford, George > Beuhler and that is more or less the same for everyone. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "capt_john2002" wrote: > > Could someone provide a drawing or something to show the layout or > how > > the cabins are set up, tankage, engine arrangment, sail plan, etc. > > etc. et | 1021|1021|2002-08-30 01:31:18|lbanerd|Junk rig?|Would the 26-foot Swain hull be compatible with a single-masted junk rig? If so, where might the mast be positioned? What sail area would be suitable? If not, why not? Too top-heavy? Not enough to sail to drive the hull at reasonable speed? Re-positioning the mast would ruin the sailing balance?| 1022|1021|2002-08-30 11:26:29|Stephen Wandling|Re: Junk rig?|lbanerd, I suspect that you will find, as I have, that Brent does not have a high regard for the junk rig, which is what I am putting on my steel "non-Swain" boat. There is lots of literature out there on putting a junk rig on just about anything. I would also suggest the junkrig group here on yahoogroups. There is lots of info in their file section. Stephen lbanerd wrote: > Would the 26-foot Swain hull be compatible with a single-masted junk > rig? > > If so, where might the mast be positioned? What sail area would be > suitable? > > If not, why not? Too top-heavy? Not enough to sail to drive the hull > at reasonable speed? Re-positioning the mast would ruin the sailing > balance? > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1023|1023|2002-08-31 18:47:56|edward_stoneuk|Anchor winch bearings|What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? Regards, Ted| 1024|1021|2002-09-03 05:07:37|edward_stoneuk|Re: Junk rig?|lbanerd, Robin Blain designs junk rigs for all types of boats and should be able to help you. He has even been to Hong Kong to rig a junk yacht. I do not know his email but here is his address. Hon Sec Junk Rig and Advanced Cruising Rig Association 373 Hunts Pond Road Titchfield Common FAREHAM Hampshire PO14 4PB UK Tel: + 44 (0)1329 842 613 Fax: + 44 (0)1329 315 232 Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@y..., "lbanerd" wrote: > Would the 26-foot Swain hull be compatible with a single-masted junk > rig? > > If so, where might the mast be positioned? What sail area would be > suitable? > > If not, why not? Too top-heavy? Not enough to sail to drive the hull > at reasonable speed? Re-positioning the mast would ruin the sailing > balance? | 1025|1023|2002-09-03 19:33:24|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch bearings|Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic hose barbs for the bearings . Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > Regards, > > Ted | 1026|1023|2002-09-03 20:48:20|Joe Earsley|Re: Anchor winch bearings|Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am seeing it here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well in corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I have talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built some enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found scrap in the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI says there wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not change. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic hose barbs for the bearings . Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > Regards, > > Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1027|1023|2002-09-04 04:00:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Anchor winch bearings|Thanks Brent, Are they PVC hose barbs? Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@y..., "brentswain38" wrote: > Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic > hose barbs for the bearings . > Brent Swain > brentswain38@y... | 1028|1028|2002-09-04 12:30:50|Bert|Hose barbs?|Ummmmm, what are pvc or plastic hose guards....somehow I'm not sure of what you folks mean.... Bert Eggers in Saginaw, Michigan| 1029|1028|2002-09-04 12:42:32|Stephen Wandling|Re: Hose barbs?|They are pvc devices that slip inside pvc pipe to allow connecting sections of pipe together or allow the connection of threaded fittings. Bert wrote: > Ummmmm, what are pvc or plastic hose guards....somehow I'm not sure > of > what you folks mean.... > > Bert Eggers in Saginaw, Michigan > | 1030|1028|2002-09-04 13:05:48|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hose barbs?|I suggest using ones made from nylon or polypropylene, much better bearing materials than PVC. See www.McMasterCarr.com to see what is available. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hose barbs? > They are pvc devices that slip inside pvc pipe to allow connecting > sections of pipe together or allow the connection of threaded fittings. > > Bert wrote: > > > Ummmmm, what are pvc or plastic hose guards....somehow I'm not sure > > of > > what you folks mean.... > > > > Bert Eggers in Saginaw, Michigan > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1031|1023|2002-09-04 14:37:24|John Jones|Re: Anchor winch bearings|Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and they're tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your local foundry should be able to help. -- --- John Jones ---------- From: "Joe Earsley" To: Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 20:47 Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am seeing it here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well in corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I have talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built some enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found scrap in the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI says there wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not change. -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic hose barbs for the bearings . Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > Regards, > > Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1032|1023|2002-09-04 20:10:12|dickpilz|Aluminized Steel (was Re: Anchor winch bearings)|Hi, Joe, Unless you are building another engine silencer or some other device that gets and stays hot on a periodic and frequent basis, don't use it in a marine environment. (I used to make engine silencers.) There is a special reaction that takes place at about 1500 degrees F where an iron aluminide alloy is formed. This is the actual corrosion resistant layer. This is great for cheap engine silencers. It is also used on very cheap burners for propane BBQ grills - these rust out after one year. Unfortunately, the aluminization burns away at every weld, so crimping is the best seam method for corrosion resistance. Not watertight. Stainless steel makes better silencers (and BBQ burners), but the critical part is both that SS and aluminized steel must always be kept exposed to the air and dried out frequently. Dick Pilz --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and they're > tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your local > foundry should be able to help. > -- > --- > John Jones > > ---------- > From: "Joe Earsley" > To: > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 20:47 > > > Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am seeing it > here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well in > corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I have > talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built some > enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found scrap in > the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI says there > wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > > Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic > hose barbs for the bearings . > Brent Swain > brentswain38@y... > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > 72:HM/A=810373/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1033|1033|2002-09-04 20:53:51|yachtayata|47' ft steel Hutton cutter for sale!!!|47ft Hutton steel cutter beam 14.6ft draft 6ft waterline 40ft fully equipped for cruising owner must return to home country due to family death. She sleeps 8 comfortably and has a spacious open interior She comes with 2 mainsails, 2 genoas, 2 working jibs, 1 storm jib, stainless steel norseman fittings and rigging, 3 steering stations, 2 dinghys, one sailing dink, and an inflatable with 3hp, beautiful koa wood interior 5 anchors, 500ft chain, 2000ft rope, solar panels, trolling generator, 110 honda generator, inverter, ham radio, ssb, 2 vhfs, 2 stereos, Force 10 s.s. kerosen 3 burner stove and oven. 110v refrigeration 30hp Deutsch diesel air cooled engine electric and hand start 2 gps units and depth sounder computer charts and nav. of the world, weather fax. all self tailing winches stern hung ruder with trim tab wind vane. 120 gallons water tank, 120 gallons diesel tank all stainless steel removable tanks. She was built in 1980 by John Hutton in hawaii. she is presently moored in honolulu at 55$ a month. she is serioulsy for sale for 55,000$US please contact 604-816-1040 or yachtayata@... or in hawaii at: rogerjayne@... 808-780-8616| 1034|1034|2002-09-05 18:44:00|robert44654|masts|Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It comes in varying sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local lumber yard| 1035|1035|2002-09-06 13:13:13|r_biese|a crazy question|Hi all as you may know boat building is much a love affair ok a modern hull, a twin keel great about 43 or 45 foot fine but my wife likes and we have sailed them since 20 years Gaff ketch'es, but I told here that building in wood even wood epoxy will be very expensive and take the rest of the live, beside dust and smell...... An Origami Boat with a real big deckshouse, let's say like a fisherboat from a gone aera..... and Gaff of course crazy ... could it be done ???? Ronald| 1036|1036|2002-09-06 13:43:08|Gord Schnell|Desalinator|Recently there was a brief discussion about building your own desalinator unit. Does anyone know who the "designer" of this was? Sure would like to talk to them. Gord| 1037|1036|2002-09-06 19:10:10|brentswain38|Re: Desalinator|Wolf Berg came up with the unit. He's probably gone back to new Zealand by now . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., Gord Schnell wrote: > Recently there was a brief discussion about building your > own desalinator unit. Does anyone know who the "designer" of > this was? Sure would like to talk to them. > Gord | 1038|1035|2002-09-06 19:11:29|brentswain38|Re: a crazy question|It would be no problem. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "r_biese" wrote: > Hi all > as you may know boat building is much a love affair > ok a modern hull, a twin keel great about 43 or 45 foot fine > > but my wife likes and we have sailed them since 20 years > Gaff ketch'es, but I told here that building in wood > even wood epoxy will be very expensive and take > the rest of the live, beside dust and smell...... > > An Origami Boat with a real big deckshouse, > let's say like a fisherboat from a > gone aera..... and Gaff of course crazy ... > could it be done ???? > Ronald | 1039|1034|2002-09-06 19:12:24|brentswain38|Re: masts|No way. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" wrote: > Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It comes in varying > sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local lumber yard | 1040|1023|2002-09-06 19:22:19|brentswain38|Re: Anchor winch bearings|-When you talk about aluminized steel you are talking about flame spraying, a form of spray galvanizing with molten metal. It's an excellent way of protecting steel. I had several anchors done with aluminium -zinc and they kept well for about ten years, not as good as hot galvanozing, but the next best thing. I flame sprayed a hull once and friends who have were very happy with the results,many years and thousands of miles later. . It's cheaper to buy your own equipment and do it yourself, especially if you can get the equipment used, or share the cost with several other builders. The equipment does occasionaly show up in surplus stores or scrapyards. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and they're > tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your local > foundry should be able to help. > -- > --- > John Jones > > ---------- > From: "Joe Earsley" > To: > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 20:47 > > > Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am seeing it > here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well in > corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I have > talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built some > enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found scrap in > the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI says there > wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > > Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic > hose barbs for the bearings . > Brent Swain > brentswain38@y... > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > 72:HM/A=810373/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1041|1034|2002-09-06 21:32:03|Brian Dixon|Re: masts|I'm not much into design of masts, but I see this topic come up over and over in every forum that covers boats...I guess all those pipes stacked up at Home Depot look mighty tempting and cheap, eh? In any case, the answer is always no. It's brittle and fails catastrophically when it fails, and it's way to flexible, even the larger diameters. Brian -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:12 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: masts No way. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" wrote: > Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It comes in varying > sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local lumber yard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1042|1034|2002-09-06 22:23:28|Alan Smith|Re: masts|If you really don't want a proven steel, wood or aluminum mast, then check out this web page for info on building one with foam/epoxy: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3387/mast.htm Al --- Brian Dixon wrote: > I'm not much into design of masts, but I see this > topic come up over and > over in every forum that covers boats...I guess all > those pipes stacked > up at Home Depot look mighty tempting and cheap, eh? > In any case, the > answer is always no. It's brittle and fails > catastrophically when it > fails, and it's way to flexible, even the larger > diameters. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] > > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:12 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: masts > > > No way. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" > wrote: > > Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It > comes in varying > > sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local > lumber yard > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 150872:HM/A=1189558/R=0/*http://www.bmgmusic.com/acq/ee/q6/enroll/mhn/9/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com| 1043|1043|2002-09-07 00:39:01|capt_john2002|metal in the mix|When you go to your local foundry ask if they will mix alloys such as aluminum/bronze/nickle/gold, no not gold, but it's not sprayed on as an after thought to make a different metal composition. It's in the mix while still molten.| 1044|1034|2002-09-07 02:05:40|John Jones|Re: masts|And for those really hot days you could have a great big noodle -- --- John Jones ---------- From: "robert44654" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] masts Date: Thu, Sep 5, 2002, 18:43 Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It comes in varying sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local lumber yard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1045|1036|2002-09-07 02:05:41|John Jones|Re: Desalinator|Check the Latts N Atts web site for plans for a still. Along with recipies for rum scotch gin and whiskey you can also distill water too. -- --- John Jones ---------- From: Gord Schnell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Desalinator Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 13:43 Recently there was a brief discussion about building your own desalinator unit. Does anyone know who the "designer" of this was? Sure would like to talk to them. Gord Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1046|1023|2002-09-07 02:05:43|John Jones|Re: Anchor winch bearings|Okay, Aluma/bronze or aluma/nickle/bronze are actually a mix of molten metals poured into a mould in order make somethinglike a winch or windlass but not something sprayed on as an after thought. -- --- John Jones <> ---------- From: "brentswain38" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 19:22 -When you talk about aluminized steel you are talking about flame spraying, a form of spray galvanizing with molten metal. It's an excellent way of protecting steel. I had several anchors done with aluminium -zinc and they kept well for about ten years, not as good as hot galvanozing, but the next best thing. I flame sprayed a hull once and friends who have were very happy with the results,many years and thousands of miles later. . It's cheaper to buy your own equipment and do it yourself, especially if you can get the equipment used, or share the cost with several other builders. The equipment does occasionaly show up in surplus stores or scrapyards. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and they're > tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your local > foundry should be able to help. > -- > --- > John Jones > > ---------- > From: "Joe Earsley" > To: > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 20:47 > > > Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am seeing it > here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well in > corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I have > talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built some > enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found scrap in > the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI says there > wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > > Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic > hose barbs for the bearings . > Brent Swain > brentswain38@y... > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > 72:HM/A=810373/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1047|1034|2002-09-07 05:41:52|John Jones|Re: masts|And for those really hot days you could have a great big noodle -- --- John Jones ---------- From: "robert44654" To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] masts Date: Thu, Sep 5, 2002, 18:43 Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It comes in varying sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local lumber yard Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1048|1048|2002-09-07 11:42:54|Stephen Wandling|Aluminized steel|John, You may be right, but that's not what Brent was commenting on. The original question was regarding "aluminized steel". You may educate yourself on this material at http://www.big-o.com/catalog/construc/drainage/dp_alu1.pdf and numerous other sites. Stephen John Jones wrote: > Okay, Aluma/bronze or aluma/nickle/bronze are actually a mix of > molten > metals poured into a mould in order make somethinglike a winch or > windlass > but not something sprayed on as an after thought. > -- > --- > John Jones <> > > > ---------- > From: "brentswain38" > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 19:22 > > > -When you talk about aluminized steel you are talking about flame > spraying, a form of spray galvanizing with molten metal. It's an > excellent way of protecting steel. I had several anchors done with > aluminium -zinc and they kept well for about ten years, not as good > as hot galvanozing, but the next best thing. I flame sprayed a hull > once and friends who have were very happy with the results,many > years and thousands of miles later. . It's cheaper to buy your own > equipment and do it yourself, especially if you can get the equipment > used, or share the cost with several other builders. > The equipment does occasionaly show up in surplus stores or > scrapyards. > Brent Swain > > > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > > Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and > they're > > tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your > local > > foundry should be able to help. > > -- > > --- > > John Jones > > > > ---------- > > From: "Joe Earsley" > > To: > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 20:47 > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am > seeing it > > here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well > in > > corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I > have > > talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built > some > > enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found > scrap in > > the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI > says there > > wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not > change. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > > > > > Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use > plastic > > hose barbs for the bearings . > > Brent Swain > > brentswain38@y... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > 051508 > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > > > 051508 > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1049|1048|2002-09-07 13:46:59|John Jones|Re: Aluminized steel|Thanks but I am familiar with the concept but when they're moulded together they can't seperate or flake apart -- --- John Jones ---------- From: Stephen Wandling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminized steel Date: Sat, Sep 7, 2002, 11:42 John, You may be right, but that's not what Brent was commenting on. The original question was regarding "aluminized steel". You may educate yourself on this material at http://www.big-o.com/catalog/construc/drainage/dp_alu1.pdf and numerous other sites. Stephen John Jones wrote: > Okay, Aluma/bronze or aluma/nickle/bronze are actually a mix of > molten > metals poured into a mould in order make somethinglike a winch or > windlass > but not something sprayed on as an after thought. > -- > --- > John Jones <> > > > ---------- > From: "brentswain38" > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 19:22 > > > -When you talk about aluminized steel you are talking about flame > spraying, a form of spray galvanizing with molten metal. It's an > excellent way of protecting steel. I had several anchors done with > aluminium -zinc and they kept well for about ten years, not as good > as hot galvanozing, but the next best thing. I flame sprayed a hull > once and friends who have were very happy with the results,many > years and thousands of miles later. . It's cheaper to buy your own > equipment and do it yourself, especially if you can get the equipment > used, or share the cost with several other builders. > The equipment does occasionaly show up in surplus stores or > scrapyards. > Brent Swain > > > > -- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > > Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and > they're > > tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your > local > > foundry should be able to help. > > -- > > --- > > John Jones > > > > ---------- > > From: "Joe Earsley" > > To: > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2002, 20:47 > > > > > > Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am > seeing it > > here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well > in > > corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I > have > > talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built > some > > enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found > scrap in > > the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI > says there > > wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not > change. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 3:33 PM > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Anchor winch bearings > > > > > > Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use > plastic > > hose barbs for the bearings . > > Brent Swain > > brentswain38@y... > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > 051508 > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=0/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > > > 051508 > > > 72:HM/A=810373/R=1/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info?.refer=blrecs> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1050|1034|2002-09-08 12:58:51|John Jones|Re: masts|Yup.....Great weight savings and it does'nt become a lightning rod either. I've even seen propellor shafts for large ships use this technology, and when one guy hoists a 20' section on his shoulder it makes quite a statement. You could even insert small plastic tubes into the foam to guide halyards inside the mast. Good link, Thanks John -- --- John Jones ---------- From: Alan Smith To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: masts Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 22:23 If you really don't want a proven steel, wood or aluminum mast, then check out this web page for info on building one with foam/epoxy: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3387/mast.htm Al --- Brian Dixon wrote: > I'm not much into design of masts, but I see this > topic come up over and > over in every forum that covers boats...I guess all > those pipes stacked > up at Home Depot look mighty tempting and cheap, eh? > In any case, the > answer is always no. It's brittle and fails > catastrophically when it > fails, and it's way to flexible, even the larger > diameters. > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] > > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:12 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: masts > > > No way. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" > wrote: > > Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It > comes in varying > > sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local > lumber yard > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > 150872:HM/A=1189558/R=0/*http://www.bmgmusic.com/acq/ee/q6/enroll/mhn/9/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1051|1007|2002-09-08 17:50:12|tom spanos|Re: 36 footer|Gentlemen, the boat is sold. tom spanos wrote: Robin I'm guessing 20K. If you get a chance to do a drive-by: she's light gray, anchored east of the Alaska State Ferry Terminal at the south end of Bellingham Bay. TOM robin roberts wrote: robin roberts here, what's the price tag? i am close to bellingham , thanks tom spanos wrote: I have a friend who is moving to California. He has the 36 footer, cutter rigged, twin keels. I told him to check out this site but he's busy and doesn't do what I tell him. The boat is here in Bellingham but he is now talking about taking it down to Gove's Cove for consignment on Lake Union in Seattle. Interested parties, questions? I'll answer or relay the message. Tom Spanos --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1052|1034|2002-09-08 23:43:08|Alan Smith|Re: masts|Perhaps that guy is onto something, as long as you have an source of inexpensive epoxy. The technique is also used on homebuilt aircraft where it is known as composite construction. Burt Rutan, who is famous for building the Voyager round-the-world non-stop airplane, has many homebuilt aircraft designs using foam/epoxy construction. If it worked on Voyager's long wings, it might be okay for a mast. Personally I don't care for internal halyards. Instead, fill those internal tubes with crumbled aluminum foil and you will have a fantastic built-in radar reflector. I imagine the cost would be a lot more than a wood mast but still less than a new aluminum extrusion. But I bet used aluminum masts are relatively plentiful as well as relatively cheap. Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com| 1053|1034|2002-09-09 02:08:11|Graeme Mitchell|Re: masts|You can find an old steel or ferro yatch that has rusted out ( ppl forget to pay as much attention as they do to the outside on the inside on steel boats) around for a reasonable price with winches, masts and all the other gear on them I purchased one for $2000 aud. Have since heard of one selling for $800aud. they seem to be more plentiful in the tropics , is where the damage really sets in with the humidty and all . I have also seen a few boats built with a t.v station type mast, three 1.5 inch pipe that seemed to work o.k one was a 55 ft roberts ketch rig with gal cable to keep the cost down. Regards Graeme Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Smith" To: Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: masts > > Perhaps that guy is onto something, as long as you > have an source of inexpensive epoxy. The technique is > also used on homebuilt aircraft where it is known as > composite construction. Burt Rutan, who is famous for > building the Voyager round-the-world non-stop > airplane, has many homebuilt aircraft designs using > foam/epoxy construction. If it worked on Voyager's > long wings, it might be okay for a mast. > > Personally I don't care for internal halyards. > Instead, fill those internal tubes with crumbled > aluminum foil and you will have a fantastic built-in > radar reflector. > > I imagine the cost would be a lot more than a wood > mast but still less than a new aluminum extrusion. But > I bet used aluminum masts are relatively plentiful as > well as relatively cheap. > > Al > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1054|1054|2002-09-09 18:18:01|robert44654|"monocat"|I have been making boat models, some a bit different, and I think an improvement. One of the limitations of smaller boats is limited waterline length. I have been experimenting adding narrow hulls to the back of monohulls in the shape of a "V" with the open part pointing aft. The draft of the aft portions of these "hulls" are shallow, and the forward portion of the "added hulls" have a greater draft and attach to the "tramsom" of the monohull. As the boat heels the windward aft hull is lifted out of the water and the lee ward hull sinks. In effect you are copying some of the concepts of the round alone boats which typically are very wide transoms, in fact the boats keep getting wider the further aft you go. In my models, these added "hulls" can be up to 1/2 the lenght of the boat. Estectically they don't look bad either, at least to me. I realize that they may increase the angle of attack of the boat and may require 2 rudders. They may require a trim tab on the keel, or daggerboards. Any one have any thoughts? Has anyone seen examples?| 1055|1055|2002-09-09 18:31:18|greenguy2ca|Water bladders 36 Ft Twin Keeler|I am thinking of putting in a water bladder on top of each keel for my "water tank". Has anyone had any experience or info regarding this option and where to buy them. Thanks... Gary| 1056|1054|2002-09-09 18:42:15|Brian Dixon|Re: "monocat"|I guess it would be best to see a picture, but I would think that a widening V shape behind the boat, or as part of a boat, would create additional resistance. Water should be allowed to come together again behind the boat, assuming you are talking displacement hulls here. And if a long portion of the stern is shallow draft and you have deep draft f'w'd, then I'd also worry about the risk of bow-steering and broaching in a following sea. Just my 2-bits...without seeing a pic, it's hard to say. Brian > > > > > I have been making boat models, some a bit different, and I think an
> improvement.  One of the limitations of smaller boats is limited
> waterline length.  I have been experimenting adding narrow hulls to
> the back of monohulls in the shape of a "V" with the open part
> pointing  aft.  The draft of the aft portions of these "hulls" are
> shallow, and the forward portion of the "added hulls" have a greater
> draft and attach to the "tramsom" of the monohull.  As the boat
> heels the windward aft hull is lifted out of the water and the lee
> ward hull sinks.  In effect you are copying some of the concepts of
> the round alone boats which typically are very wide transoms, in
> fact the boats keep getting wider the  further aft you go.  In my
> models, these added "hulls"  can be up to 1/2 the lenght of the
> boat.  Estectically they don't look bad either, at least to me.  I
> realize that they may increase the angle of attack of the boat and
> may require 2 rudders.  They may require a trim tab on the keel, or
> daggerboards. Any one have any thoughts? Has anyone seen examples?  
>
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > >
> > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. >
> > > > > | 1057|1057|2002-09-11 04:23:09|Steven Lewis|Messabout!|Howdy, I'm new to this group and I'm interested in finding anyone who has built a boat and wants to attend a Messabout. We are going to host one at Lake Okaboji, in NW Iowa. Already have folks interested who live in Minneapolis, Dakota Dunes(SD), and NW Iowa. This will happen next summer(June-Aug) and are looking for other participants. Doesn't matter what you might have built, so long as it floats, and looks like it might fit into the definition of a boat. Please email me off post if you might be interested. Steve.| 1058|1058|2002-09-12 01:14:40|gjm123smau|Steel list for 40ft boat|Hi all is there a steel list around for a 40ft to42 ft boat?? or do you add on to the demensions of the 36?? Not that I am lazy but if there was i would appreciate it so as I can start scrounging for steel and stainless plate and pipe. Thanks Regards Graeme Perth Australia| 1060|1054|2002-09-14 14:34:24|brentswain38|Re: "monocat"|As I point out in my book, wide sterns eliminate directional stability and make a boat very skitish on the helm. I believe this is why a round the world racer named "Allied Bank ' had to drop out in Capetown after burning out every autopilot they had in the first leg. It was extremely wedge shaped . The lack of directional stability is why they need twin rudders to maintain some semblance of control over them. My first steel boat had a very assymetrical waterline shape. It didn't have anywhere near the directional stability I wanted. For my current boat I widened the waterline foreward by 3 inches and narrowed it aft by a similar amount. There was a huge improvement in directional stability. Wide sterns and narrow bows are a big mistake on cruising boats where directional stability is very important. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "robert44654" wrote: > I have been making boat models, some a bit different, and I think an > improvement. One of the limitations of smaller boats is limited > waterline length. I have been experimenting adding narrow hulls to > the back of monohulls in the shape of a "V" with the open part > pointing aft. The draft of the aft portions of these "hulls" are > shallow, and the forward portion of the "added hulls" have a greater > draft and attach to the "tramsom" of the monohull. As the boat > heels the windward aft hull is lifted out of the water and the lee > ward hull sinks. In effect you are copying some of the concepts of > the round alone boats which typically are very wide transoms, in > fact the boats keep getting wider the further aft you go. In my > models, these added "hulls" can be up to 1/2 the lenght of the > boat. Estectically they don't look bad either, at least to me. I > realize that they may increase the angle of attack of the boat and > may require 2 rudders. They may require a trim tab on the keel, or > daggerboards. Any one have any thoughts? Has anyone seen examples? | 1061|1061|2002-09-14 14:37:15|brentswain38|New mailing address |My new mailing address is 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 You can order books and plans from this address. My new e-mail address is brentswain38@... Brent Swain| 1062|1062|2002-09-18 00:27:31|capt_john2002|Book|Well the "nautical mind book store" has finally recieved their book order and I got my copy today. Maybe some other builders in Toronto can use some of your insight. .... thanks. John| 1063|1063|2002-09-23 12:11:41|lbanerd|New photos of two Swain hulls|In the Photos section, I have posted several shots of two different Brent Swain hulls on the hard in a local marina: a black-hulled 26- footer and what looks like a 40-footer, both twin-keelers.| 1064|1064|2002-09-23 14:45:36|kwing175|ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig|Does anyone have knowledge about, experience with, Bray Yacht Design in White Rock B.C? Any information would be greatly appreciated. http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/saisha.html In his list of plans is a 42', twin keel, junk rigged vessel. He states ......"The hull is built on a unique pull together steel sheet method which gives rounded sections both fore and aft with only a small chine amidships, making this boat extremely easy and fast to construct. After the skin plates are cut from patterns and pulled together the interior stiffening and bulkheads can be put in, and the deck put on. At this time interior finish work can be done with the hull already closed up. This method requires a minimum of temporary framing and neither material nor time is wasted on work which will not be apart of the finished product." This sounds allot like the origami approach. Regards, Keith --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/02| 1065|1064|2002-09-23 15:45:53|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig|Keith, I contacted Patrick Bray about the AISHA design some years ago, as I was interested in a larger Swain hull, but Swain hadn't yet designed the 40. Bray told me that it was indeed based on Swain's origami technique. It is the only hull Bray designed using that system, as far as I know. At that time, the client who commisioned Aisha did not go ahead with building it, so no prototype exists. My personal opinion is that a first-time boatbuildng project of that magnitude should be based on a design which has been built at least once so that many of the bugs can be worked out. That's just my thought based on a natural instinct to follow a well-worn path. It is for this reason that I bought the plans for the Swain 40: One has already been built and successfully sailed to the South Pacific and back (Mishar in Vancouver), and another is nearly complete (Amazing Grace, also in Van). So now there is a pool of experience I can dip into (parasite, I am!) and soak up knowledge. A yacht designer needn't be a boatbuilder in order to design a boat, but I have to admit that there is great confidence inspired by the fact that Swain has built more of boats to his own designs than he can count on his hands and feet (and a few other hands if he had them). There are over 100 of his designs built out there. That just sits right with me, even though as a boatbuilder I know lots of boats have been prototyped with very few problems. Brent Swain's intimate familiarity with how steel behaves must have an impact on how he designs. In addition, any errors in the plans discovered through building the hulls have been corrected on the plans, saving a lot of headache for the first-time builder. Being a true Scotsman at heart, the price of Swain's plans is appealing ($500 for the 40), vs $2200 for Aisha. On the other hand, some may argue that the cost of the plans is a very small part of the over all cost of the hull. For me, I'm counting every penny! Bray's Aisha plans feature full detailing of the interior and systems, while Swain's leave the interior mostly up to the owner. Since most people building a custom boat build a custom interior (I have yet to see two identical interiors in Swain's boats, though some borrow idea from each other), the lack of interior drawings on the Swain plans is not a drawback. It all depends on what level of detail you are looking for, and how much you want to spend. By buying Brent's plans, I've got an extra $1700 to put into an engine, I like to think! All that said, it is likely that the AISHA boat would go together as advertised, and in fact making a simple cardpaper model would tell you this quickly, so I wouldn't ignore his work solely based on lack of a prototype. Patrick Bray has a really great site, I must say, and I enjoyed everything he wrote. He has a great article on the advantages of twin keels that is a must read. Alex Christie ----- Original Message ----- From: kwing175 To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 1:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig > Does anyone have knowledge about, experience with, Bray Yacht Design in > White Rock B.C? Any information would be greatly appreciated. > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/saisha.html > > > In his list of plans is a 42', twin keel, junk rigged vessel. He states > ......"The hull is built on a unique pull together steel sheet method which > gives rounded sections both fore and aft with only a small chine amidships, > making this boat extremely easy and fast to construct. After the skin > plates are cut from patterns and pulled together the interior stiffening > and bulkheads can be put in, and the deck put on. At this time interior > finish work can be done with the hull already closed up. This method > requires a minimum of temporary framing and neither material nor time is > wasted on work which will not be apart of the finished product." > > This sounds allot like the origami approach. > > Regards, > Keith > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/02 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1066|1064|2002-09-23 17:09:41|kwing175|Re: ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig|Alex, Thanks for the quick response. I believe we think very much alike. Keith --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.386 / Virus Database: 218 - Release Date: 9/9/02| 1067|1067|2002-09-24 15:22:42|Phil S.|Plans Purchase|Hey Gang: Maybe I missed it in the book someplace but I was wondering where I can buy a set of plans for Brent's designs for a 40 to 47 footer. Although I plan to put it together as more of a motor sailer/ troller yacht than pure sail boat. Has anyone else tried using this type of coonstruction for a troller design? i like the idea of back up sails and ease of construction. I just don't know anything about sail boats or sailing. Thanks Phil| 1068|1068|2002-09-24 15:44:38|riptide0037|re 40 footers|Alex I too am serious about a 40 ft twin keel. Expec to be in Van next month . Is it possible I could contact the two owners you mention. I would appreciate talking to anyone who has or is building a 40 ft Robert| 1069|1068|2002-09-24 16:07:17|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: re 40 footers|Hi Robert, Gord Schnell, an instructor at BCIT, is finishing Amazing Grace in Vancouver. He can be reached at gschnell@... , and was willing to show me around his boat but I didn't find the time to get over. Maybe we can combine a visit when you are in Van. Gord also knows the owners of Mishar, the other 40, and mentioned getting together with them for an evening. They have lots of interesting ocean experiences to relate, I'm sure. Are you far from Vancouver? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: riptide0037 To: Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] re 40 footers > Alex > I too am serious about a 40 ft twin keel. Expec to be in Van next > month . Is it possible I could contact the two owners you mention. > I would appreciate talking to anyone who has or is building a 40 ft > Robert > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1070|1067|2002-09-24 16:57:49|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Plans Purchase|I think Brent's hulls would make good trawlers, but for comparison check also http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=24177a7bbdeb3a39cee05f17f03971 9e&threadid=417&highlight=Trawler Fair Winds, Stephen -----Original Message----- From: Phil S. [mailto:newbarndesign@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 3:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Plans Purchase Hey Gang: Maybe I missed it in the book someplace but I was wondering where I can buy a set of plans for Brent's designs for a 40 to 47 footer. Although I plan to put it together as more of a motor sailer/ troller yacht than pure sail boat. Has anyone else tried using this type of coonstruction for a troller design? i like the idea of back up sails and ease of construction. I just don't know anything about sail boats or sailing. Thanks Phil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1071|1067|2002-09-25 15:11:36|Alex Christie|Re: Plans Purchase|Plans for the 40 footer can be purchased from Brent at: Brent Swain at 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC, V0R-2V0, Canada The 40 footer plans are $500.00 I am not sure how much for shipping - - I'll find out. The people at Confidence www.boatbuilding.ws have done some drawing for a trawler version of Brent's boat, to give you an idea. For transoceanic journeys, I think nothing beats sailing for saving fuel! You could always build the 40 as a trawler and add mast and sails later. Keep in mind that it is important avoid building in excessive weight up high, however. Brent's boats are designed with quite low pilot houses in order to keep centre of gravity as low as possible -- generally a sensible rule for most sailboats. Also, the higher you go, the more small amounts of weight count! If you wanted a substantially large pilot house as on most trawlers, then choosing a design that has this already may be a better idea. Alex| 1072|1072|2002-09-25 21:37:48|riptide0037|40 ft twin keel|Alex Thanks for the info.Do you or anyone have a steel cost for the 40ft, preprimed of course.How much lead goes in those keels ? I realize everyones boat can vary after those basics but I sure would appreciate some ballpark figures if anyone has built a 40ft and doesn`t mind sharing that. I will post another message when I know dates for Van visit. Would enjoy meeting you . Is there a way to share phone info ? Does Brent have study plans ? I have his book. Robert| 1073|1072|2002-09-25 22:04:13|Brian Dixon|Re: 40 ft twin keel|I'm a lurker...actually some guy in a welding class who may build a metal boat some day. Have a question: Pre-primed? I assume you can buy metal that is pre-primed and it at least avoids the quick rust issue (from atmospheric moisture)? If so, does it weld straightaway, or do you brush the joints and then weld? Brian -----Original Message----- From: riptide0037 [mailto:robertgm77@...] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 6:38 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] 40 ft twin keel Alex Thanks for the info.Do you or anyone have a steel cost for the 40ft, preprimed of course.How much lead goes in those keels ? I realize everyones boat can vary after those basics but I sure would appreciate some ballpark figures if anyone has built a 40ft and doesn`t mind sharing that. I will post another message when I know dates for Van visit. Would enjoy meeting you . Is there a way to share phone info ? Does Brent have study plans ? I have his book. Robert Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1074|1067|2002-09-26 09:19:41|Phil S.|Trawler Design|Hi Alex: Thanks for your input, I was thinking something along the lines of a Diesel Duck wheel house but smaller. I have allot of research to do before I make a decision. After reading allot of story's by cruisers and sail folks, I noticed the sailing guys saying the same thing over and over again. "Wind was from the wrong directtion (or no wind at all) so we motored for the last 30 hours" See this site as an example http://www.aljian.com/mandolin/ index.html Well what I feel would work for me is a Motor vessel that can sail if the wind is right, or as get to land and spare parts power. I am still looking for a copy of Robert BeeBee's book but haven't had much luck finding an original copy. But I will primarily want to sit in my nice comfy wheel house and drive the boat. I live on the great lakes and 75% of the year it is either cold and snowing or cold and raining. I also will tend to be cruising in the finger lakes and on the NYS Canal system, so masts will be a pain in the behind to step and unstep them. Eventually when all 5 of my kids go off to their own lives I intend to do some serious cruising, only 7 more years.....LOL Thanks for the help after Cristmas I will be done with my house and can start on my boat. Phil --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" wrote: > Plans for the 40 footer can be purchased from Brent at: > Brent Swain at 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC, V0R-2V0, Canada > > The 40 footer plans are $500.00 I am not sure how much for shipping - > - I'll find out. > > The people at Confidence www.boatbuilding.ws have done some drawing > for a trawler version of Brent's boat, to give you an idea. > > For transoceanic journeys, I think nothing beats sailing for saving > fuel! > > You could always build the 40 as a trawler and add mast and sails > later. > > Keep in mind that it is important avoid building in excessive weight > up high, however. Brent's boats are designed with quite low pilot > houses in order to keep centre of gravity as low as possible -- > generally a sensible rule for most sailboats. Also, the higher you > go, the more small amounts of weight count! > > If you wanted a substantially large pilot house as on most trawlers, > then choosing a design that has this already may be a better idea. > > Alex | 1075|1067|2002-09-26 10:38:20|Phil S.|Dove 3|I really like the look and size of the wheel house on the Dove3. I just need a larger boat for the large family. She is the design I have in mind, which is also really similar to the Meta built Voyager series, also a Framesless design. With the efficient sailing hull design I wouldn't need much over 80 HP (OK even that would be over doing it for hull speeds) The Meta Voyager has two BMW 50HP engines. The design looks like a sail boat with a slightly larger wheel house. Pretty cool, I just won't ever have the $150K to buy one. thanks Phil| 1076|1072|2002-09-27 11:28:33|Gord Schnell|Re: 40 ft twin keel|Steel cost for hull, decks, keel and cabin run about $6800Cdn. Tankage, dodger, rudder and skeg are extra. Depending on how much stainless you use, it can sky-rocket from there. riptide0037 wrote: > > Alex > Thanks for the info.Do you or anyone have a steel cost for > the 40ft, > preprimed of course.How much lead goes in those keels ? I > realize > everyones boat can vary after those basics but I sure > would appreciate > some ballpark figures if anyone has built a 40ft and > doesn`t mind > sharing that. I will post another message when I know > dates for Van > visit. Would enjoy meeting you . Is there a way to share > phone info ? > Does Brent have study plans ? I have his book. > Robert > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1077|1072|2002-09-27 21:34:45|Graeme Mitchell|Re: 40 ft twin keel|Gord Have you got a materials list for the 40ft er so as I can start scrounging steel . Stainless steel can be bought from scrap dealers for $3.00 per kg but you have to keep on going back to have a look to see if the pieces that you want are there flat ,pipe etc Regards Graeme Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gord Schnell" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40 ft twin keel > Steel cost for hull, decks, keel and cabin run about > $6800Cdn. Tankage, dodger, rudder and skeg are extra. > Depending on how much stainless you use, it can sky-rocket > from there. > > riptide0037 wrote: > > > > Alex > > Thanks for the info.Do you or anyone have a steel cost for > > the 40ft, > > preprimed of course.How much lead goes in those keels ? I > > realize > > everyones boat can vary after those basics but I sure > > would appreciate > > some ballpark figures if anyone has built a 40ft and > > doesn`t mind > > sharing that. I will post another message when I know > > dates for Van > > visit. Would enjoy meeting you . Is there a way to share > > phone info ? > > Does Brent have study plans ? I have his book. > > Robert > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1078|1078|2002-09-29 13:30:52|riptide0037|36 twin keel|If Paul Deprie [sp ?]is watching this forum or if anyone knows him I would like to contact him . I just bought a 36 twin keel that he apparently built, would appreciate talking to him. Robert| 1079|1072|2002-09-29 22:44:24|Gord Schnell|Re: 40 ft twin keel|The materials list with my plans (original 40' plans) was very incomplete. I haven't tried to create a more accurate one because I have added many things the plans do not call for. I purchased all my stainless (with the exception of the railings and bulwarks) from scrap dealers as well. The one I generally buy from sells for $1/lb. or less. Your right, you do have to keep going back until the right piece shows up. Gord Graeme Mitchell wrote: > > Gord > Have you got a materials list for the 40ft er so as I can > start scrounging > steel . > Stainless steel can be bought from scrap dealers for $3.00 > per kg but you > have to keep on going back to have a look to see if the > pieces that you > want are there flat ,pipe etc > Regards > Graeme > Australia > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gord Schnell" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:28 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40 ft twin keel > > > Steel cost for hull, decks, keel and cabin run about > > $6800Cdn. Tankage, dodger, rudder and skeg are extra. > > Depending on how much stainless you use, it can > sky-rocket > > from there. > > > > riptide0037 wrote: > > > > > > Alex > > > Thanks for the info.Do you or anyone have a steel cost > for > > > the 40ft, > > > preprimed of course.How much lead goes in those keels > ? I > > > realize > > > everyones boat can vary after those basics but I sure > > > would appreciate > > > some ballpark figures if anyone has built a 40ft and > > > doesn`t mind > > > sharing that. I will post another message when I know > > > dates for Van > > > visit. Would enjoy meeting you . Is there a way to > share > > > phone info ? > > > Does Brent have study plans ? I have his book. > > > Robert > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > > of Service. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1080|1080|2002-10-01 17:44:07|Alex & Kim Christie|Gary Noble Curtis references|Hi Group, Found a few references to Gary Noble Curtis, who as some of you may know, was involved with the Metal Boat Society, and has done some steel design work in the origami style. There are very few references to him online, and it appears that his work is not prolific, but it is interesting to look at. It appears that Gary's system is somewhat similar to Brent's, but not entirely. The photos of one of the hulls in build show a more complicated system of 6 chain come-alongs in order to keep the shape of hull before it is welded, plus there is some sort of chine shape in the stern quarters. http://www.gossamersf.com/silver.htm photos of GNC's boat and hull in build http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/latitude38.htm interesting article about steel vs aluminum for boats, originally printed in Latitude 38 Magazine. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1081|1080|2002-10-02 00:54:14|The Bumby's|Re: Gary Noble Curtis references|Thank you for the information. I went to both sites and I must say, very good. I've not started a boat yet but I'm looking forward to building one in the future. At the moment, I'm repairing an older fiberglass boat with rotted wood. I the information from origamiboats letters has been very helpful in my decision on building fiberglass or steel. Thanks again and God Bless!!!! Ernest :^) ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:01 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Gary Noble Curtis references Hi Group, Found a few references to Gary Noble Curtis, who as some of you may know, was involved with the Metal Boat Society, and has done some steel design work in the origami style. There are very few references to him online, and it appears that his work is not prolific, but it is interesting to look at. It appears that Gary's system is somewhat similar to Brent's, but not entirely. The photos of one of the hulls in build show a more complicated system of 6 chain come-alongs in order to keep the shape of hull before it is welded, plus there is some sort of chine shape in the stern quarters. http://www.gossamersf.com/silver.htm photos of GNC's boat and hull in build http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/latitude38.htm interesting article about steel vs aluminum for boats, originally printed in Latitude 38 Magazine. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1082|1058|2002-10-02 19:50:05|Alex Christie|Re: Steel list for 40ft boat|Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: Hull: 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom Deck: 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops Stiffeners: 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe Keel, single -- I'll have to ask Brent next month about twin keel parts; he is somewhere out in the middle of the S. Pacific right now, heading towards Christmas Island in his 31 foot twin keeler -- lucky guy!) 1-8x10x1/4" plate 1-2x12x1/2" plate 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 Twin keel uses 2.5" shaft steel--not pipe-- this I do know! The following items can be pre-built before the hull even takes shape, and require mostly stainless steel, or aluminum for hatches. The materials for these would all be based on plans in the book: Anchor winch (ss) mast tabernacle (ss) bow roller (ss) anchor winch handle pad (ss) mooring bitts (3, made of pipe, plate, and rod) cleats (ss rod) stanchions (ss pipe, 1", I think) chainplates (ss plate) chockliners (3/8" ss rod, and some 1/2" for bow and stern chockliners) SS ball valves - 2-1.5", 2-3/4" aluminum for forehatch ss doubler plates below mooring bits ss rod and pipe for gudgeons and pintles ss for self steering plexiglass or lexan for portlights in cabinsides and top of ph The dimensions for everything that can be prebuilt are noted on the plans and in the book -- it is really a matter of going through it all and making up a master list, then keeping your eyes peeled for good scrounge deals. *When* I start my boat (famous last words), I'll try and keep track of my list, which I'll share with the group. Some of you may be finished your boats by the time I get started, judging by the way things are going around here (house renovations!).| 1083|1083|2002-10-03 16:04:23|prairiemaidca|Fin Keel placement..|HI All: Well the time has come where the keel is ready and I have to cut that big hole in the hull of our 36ft hull. There seems to be some discrepancy in the plans as to where exactly it should go. On one page it shows the forward edge of the keel contacting the hull aprox. 10in. forward of the centre of the mast. Yet in another it looks that the forward point [top] of the keel is directly below the mast. Do we have a concensus out there as to it's exact placement in relation to the mast??? Martin (prairiemaid)| 1084|1058|2002-10-04 01:10:47|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel list for 40ft boat|Alex Thanks for that will start the scrounging , let the fun commence hope to have all the bits made before the hull . I have the book. so all I now need I guess is to purchase the plans . With the twin keel in alloy what size is the leading edge of the keels ??? or is there some other way filling with lead to make them solid ???? Regards Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 7:49 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel list for 40ft boat > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel, single -- I'll have to ask Brent next month about twin keel > parts; he is somewhere out in the middle of the S. Pacific right > now, heading towards Christmas Island in his 31 foot twin keeler -- > lucky guy!) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Twin keel uses 2.5" shaft steel--not pipe-- this I do know! > > The following items can be pre-built before the hull even takes > shape, and require mostly stainless steel, or aluminum for hatches. > The materials for these would all be based on plans in the book: > Anchor winch (ss) > mast tabernacle (ss) > bow roller (ss) > anchor winch handle pad (ss) > mooring bitts (3, made of pipe, plate, and rod) > cleats (ss rod) > stanchions (ss pipe, 1", I think) > chainplates (ss plate) > chockliners (3/8" ss rod, and some 1/2" for bow and stern chockliners) > > SS ball valves - 2-1.5", 2-3/4" > aluminum for forehatch > ss doubler plates below mooring bits > ss rod and pipe for gudgeons and pintles > ss for self steering > > plexiglass or lexan for portlights in cabinsides and top of ph > > The dimensions for everything that can be prebuilt are noted on the > plans and in the book -- it is really a matter of going through it > all and making up a master list, then keeping your eyes peeled for > good scrounge deals. *When* I start my boat (famous last words), > I'll try and keep track of my list, which I'll share with the group. > Some of you may be finished your boats by the time I get started, > judging by the way things are going around here (house renovations!). > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1085|1078|2002-10-04 19:13:57|riptide0037|36 twin keel|If anyone knows this or has a 36 twin keel out of water and can take two measurements I would appreciate it.The boat I just bought is in water and the boat haulers want to know the distance apart of the keels at their base [widest part] They also are asking for the height from bottom of keels to top of pilothouse.My boat is traditional in design so I expect would compare in size to other 36 fters. If you have had a twin keel hauled in the Vancouver area recently could you post the name of the boat hauler.These guys seem nervous if they don`t have twin keel experience.Thanks. Robert| 1086|1083|2002-10-05 01:42:42|Gord Schnell|Re: Fin Keel placement..|DIRECTLY below. prairiemaidca wrote: > > HI All: Well the time has come where the keel is ready > and I have to > cut that big hole in the hull of our 36ft hull. There > seems to be > some discrepancy in the plans as to where exactly it > should go. On > one page it shows the forward edge of the keel contacting > the hull > aprox. 10in. forward of the centre of the mast. Yet in > another it > looks that the forward point [top] of the keel is directly > below the > mast. Do we have a concensus out there as to it's exact > placement in > relation to the mast??? Martin (prairiemaid) > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [Image] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1087|1087|2002-10-05 17:16:49|Alex Christie|new photo albums added to photo section|Dear Group, I've added two new photo albums: 36' Ocean Pearl -- a 36 footer for sale down on Saltspring Island, BC. 32' Nomidic -- 32 footer for sale in Mazatlan, Mexico, currently feature photo on the origamiboats home page. Both are very nice looking boats! Alex| 1088|1088|2002-10-07 13:22:46|Alex Christie|Info about cover photo|Dear Group, Occasionally, as a Swain vessel comes up for sale, I'll post information about it for any interested parties looking for a boat of this type. Not advertising per se, just passing along the info! The featured boat is the same as on the group's home page this month. Photos are posted under "32' Nomadic" in photo section. The boat is selling for $48,000 US. The URL for the sellers, Mazatlan Marine Center in Mexico, is located at http://www.yachtworld.com/mazmarine/ Alex ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is a well designed and beautifully finished steel vessel. Her construction is A-36 steel plate SS reinforced. Her deck is welded through sampson posts. Her rigging SS 1x19, swagged at mast and Norseman fittings at deck. The hull is insulated, keel is modified fin with encased ballast. Headroom is 6' 2" Brent Swain the designer personally oversaw it's construction. The pilot station includes engine, steering, system and navigational equipment controls. Autopilot has a remote and Fleming windvane new in '97. Easy access to engine, battery boxes with cabin sole hatches to all through hulls and bilge area. Galley has gimbaled Force 10 stove, refer/freezer, vented propane locker under cockpit. Interior finish is teak an mahogany, cabin sole teak & holly. Vessel is already documented. More photos are available at your request. Financial and titling transactions are conducted in the US or Canada by licensed agents. An offshore purchase means great savings and the process is more hassle-free than you might think! Reputable boat transport is available from Mazatlan or San Carlos to Tucson, AZ. Call for details. Contact Mazatlan Marine Yacht Center SA de CV. Ray Watson & Jeannette Blvd. del Marlin # 11 Fracc: Sabalo Country Mazatlan, Mexico Tel 011 52 (669) 916-50-15 Fax 011 52 (669) 916-50-15 Email Mazmarine@... http://www.yachtworld.com/mazmarine/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------| 1089|1089|2002-10-08 22:51:52|jonhackett44|Steel list and suppliers|Hi gang! My first post...ready to start construction on 36' twin keel. I have a lot of questions...please be patient... I live in Seattle and am going to start building the "small stuff" over the winter and start the hull next spring. I would appreciate info on the following: What kind/grade of steel am I looking for? Where in Seattle or the Northwest can I find it?(wheel abraided and primed) Primed how? If I import it from Canada, what, if any, are the hoops to jump through to get it here? Is there a way to predetermine if the steel is properly primed? Is it necessary to sandblast this primer before applying paint? What kind of paint? How many coats? Interior and/or exterior? Who in the Seattle area does a conscientious job in the spray foam department? Engine choice? Planning to sail the Pacific rim and BC.... ...Yanmar?...Isuzu?...Perkins?...Universal? Any info will help greatly... Thanks in advance J.Hackett| 1090|1090|2002-10-16 15:06:45|Alex Christie|Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Dear Group, We are in the early planning stages of a 2 week course called Introduction to Origami Steel Boatbuilding Techniques. The course is to be held on Vancouver Island (Comox Valley area), BC, in 2003. If anyone is interested in joining this class (there will be a maximum of 6 participants), drop me a line at origamiboats@... to indicate interest. The course is oriented to those who wish to build their own origami steel boat, but wish to gain skills on another project first. No previous boatbuilding or welding experience is necessary. One complete bare hull, either a 31 foot or 36 foot twin keel design, will be built over a period of about 10 to 14 days. The completed shell will include the hull, decks, cabin tops and pilot house, as well as keels, skeg and rudder. A small amount of stainless detailing will be done to give students a good grasp of this process. As well, some of the wood furring strips will be installed in the interior in preparation for spray foaming, and students will be briefed on engine bed construction. This is by no means a welding course, as all the knowledge for welding could not possibly be taught in such a short time. However, there will be a general introduction to the techniques and participants will be able to learn some techniques under supervision. Taking an introductory welding course in advance could be helpful, but is not required, and could be taken afterwards. Some time will be taken to go on a field trip to view other boats in build, as well as completed boats in the water. If possible, participants will be able to go out for a sail in an Swain sailboat. Topics which we'll cover (tentative list): -General welding knowledge -ac welding and oxy/gas cutting safety -worksite layout -- setting up a workspace, organizing materials, project planning -lofting patterns full-size -cutting and tacking -plate material handling, alignment and welding -detailing - welding stainless steel and aluminum -keel and skeg installation -hull interior firring strip installation -basic theory of interior design -other topics to be announced With a small number of participants (6), there will be a good opportunity to tailor some aspects of the course to meet specific interests that students would like to explore. This course will be very intensive, but not stressful, and basic good physical health is all that is required (ie, you don't need to be a weight-lifter). There won't be much required to bring other than personal safety equipment such as steel-toed boots, welding gloves, cover-alls, ear- protection and a welding helmet. Anyhow, I'm passing this your way, and based on the response I'll go ahead with further planning. I think it'll be an exciting experience and a definite boon for anyone contemplating building one of these boats but unsure of how to go about it. Regards, Alex Christie moderator, Origamiboats| 1091|1090|2002-10-16 17:05:19|Joe Earsley|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Alex, Please count me in! Please keep me posted on the particulars. Joe Earsley 6910 Potter Heights Drive Anchorage, AK, USA 99516 jearsley@... -----Original Message----- From: Alex Christie [mailto:origamiboats@...] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:07 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement Dear Group, We are in the early planning stages of a 2 week course called Introduction to Origami Steel Boatbuilding Techniques. The course is to be held on Vancouver Island (Comox Valley area), BC, in 2003. If anyone is interested in joining this class (there will be a maximum of 6 participants), drop me a line at origamiboats@... to indicate interest. The course is oriented to those who wish to build their own origami steel boat, but wish to gain skills on another project first. No previous boatbuilding or welding experience is necessary. One complete bare hull, either a 31 foot or 36 foot twin keel design, will be built over a period of about 10 to 14 days. The completed shell will include the hull, decks, cabin tops and pilot house, as well as keels, skeg and rudder. A small amount of stainless detailing will be done to give students a good grasp of this process. As well, some of the wood furring strips will be installed in the interior in preparation for spray foaming, and students will be briefed on engine bed construction. This is by no means a welding course, as all the knowledge for welding could not possibly be taught in such a short time. However, there will be a general introduction to the techniques and participants will be able to learn some techniques under supervision. Taking an introductory welding course in advance could be helpful, but is not required, and could be taken afterwards. Some time will be taken to go on a field trip to view other boats in build, as well as completed boats in the water. If possible, participants will be able to go out for a sail in an Swain sailboat. Topics which we'll cover (tentative list): -General welding knowledge -ac welding and oxy/gas cutting safety -worksite layout -- setting up a workspace, organizing materials, project planning -lofting patterns full-size -cutting and tacking -plate material handling, alignment and welding -detailing - welding stainless steel and aluminum -keel and skeg installation -hull interior firring strip installation -basic theory of interior design -other topics to be announced With a small number of participants (6), there will be a good opportunity to tailor some aspects of the course to meet specific interests that students would like to explore. This course will be very intensive, but not stressful, and basic good physical health is all that is required (ie, you don't need to be a weight-lifter). There won't be much required to bring other than personal safety equipment such as steel-toed boots, welding gloves, cover-alls, ear- protection and a welding helmet. Anyhow, I'm passing this your way, and based on the response I'll go ahead with further planning. I think it'll be an exciting experience and a definite boon for anyone contemplating building one of these boats but unsure of how to go about it. Regards, Alex Christie moderator, Origamiboats Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1092|1092|2002-10-17 10:43:42|Bert|Re: Origami boat building class|Alex: I'm desirous of attending, also, do you have any dates in mind? Costs? Location? Bert Eggers email: berte@... phone: 989 790 7598| 1093|1093|2002-10-17 10:46:20|Bert|Bow roller material???|Hi all. I'm wondering what might be successful as a relatively inexpensive material for anchor chain/line bow rollers? What general diameter seems to work? I see some awfully pricey bow roller replacements in the marine catalogs....;o( Best to all, Bert Eggers in Michigan| 1094|1093|2002-10-17 14:44:55|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Bow roller material???|Brent's book has an excellent write-up on this subject. I am leery of ripping off information right from the book without his say, but I'll try and paraphrase in a general way how it is done. The book has complete drawings, details and instructions for making your own inexpensive rollers of any size and shape out of that white high-density polypropylene sheet. You can get hd polypropylene from plastic shops or at your local kitchen store in the form of cutting board, and on occasion at surplus stores (restaurant supply wharehouses that liquidate restaurant kitchen materials would be another great spot for used polypro, and I bet it would be quite thick sheet). If shopping at a kitchen shop, beware the cheap plasticky non-polypropylene kinds from China or Taiwan, as these look more or less the same but are cheaper in quality and will not last as long-- make sure you go and feel what real HD Polypropylene is supposed to feel like, then compare to what you might find in the kitchen store by feel and look. It is really a matter of where you can find the material for the best price. The disc diameter he suggests in his book is 4 inches. You stack and bolt the discs together with smaller bolts, making sure to countersink each hole on either end (these are permanent bolts and nuts, and therefor have to allow the roller to spin unimpeded), drill on centre a 3/8" hole, install 3/8" bolt and tighten it, put the end of bolt into a drill, hold the drill in a vice or workmate and use it as a lathe to cut the discs to the desired shape. At this cheap a price, you can make yourself as many as you'd like --- take a few extra for cruising friends you meet in Bora Bora who are miserable because their store-bought bow rollers fell apart and they can't get a replacement shipped in before cyclone season sets in! So much for paraphrasing -- I ended up telling all! :-) Did I mention the book? $20 + $3 shipping from Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC, V0R-2V0, Canada. I'm sure he'd appreciate it. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert To: Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 7:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Bow roller material??? > Hi all. I'm wondering what might be successful as a relatively inexpensive material for anchor chain/line bow rollers? What general diameter seems to work? > I see some awfully pricey bow roller replacements in the marine catalogs....;o( > > Best to all, Bert Eggers in Michigan > | 1095|1090|2002-10-17 15:43:00|intiaboats|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Sign me up! I think that you will need to schedule several workshops. You will most probably be swamped with replies of interest. In fact, sign my Father up also. --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex Christie" wrote: > Dear Group, > > We are in the early planning stages of a 2 week course called > Introduction to Origami Steel Boatbuilding Techniques. The course is > to be held on Vancouver Island (Comox Valley area), BC, in 2003. If > anyone is interested in joining this class (there will be a maximum > of 6 participants), drop me a line at origamiboats@t... to > indicate interest. > > The course is oriented to those who wish to build their own origami > steel boat, but wish to gain skills on another project first. No > previous boatbuilding or welding experience is necessary. > > One complete bare hull, either a 31 foot or 36 foot twin keel design, > will be built over a period of about 10 to 14 days. The completed > shell will include the hull, decks, cabin tops and pilot house, as > well as keels, skeg and rudder. A small amount of stainless > detailing will be done to give students a good grasp of this process. > As well, some of the wood furring strips will be installed in the > interior in preparation for spray foaming, and students will be > briefed on engine bed construction. > > This is by no means a welding course, as all the knowledge for > welding could not possibly be taught in such a short time. However, > there will be a general introduction to the techniques and > participants will be able to learn some techniques under > supervision. Taking an introductory welding course in advance could > be helpful, but is not required, and could be taken afterwards. > > Some time will be taken to go on a field trip to view other boats in > build, as well as completed boats in the water. If possible, > participants will be able to go out for a sail in an Swain sailboat. > > Topics which we'll cover (tentative list): > -General welding knowledge > -ac welding and oxy/gas cutting safety > -worksite layout -- setting up a workspace, organizing materials, > project planning > -lofting patterns full-size > -cutting and tacking > -plate material handling, alignment and welding > -detailing - welding stainless steel and aluminum > -keel and skeg installation > -hull interior firring strip installation > -basic theory of interior design > -other topics to be announced > > With a small number of participants (6), there will be a good > opportunity to tailor some aspects of the course to meet specific > interests that students would like to explore. This course will be > very intensive, but not stressful, and basic good physical health is > all that is required (ie, you don't need to be a weight-lifter). > There won't be much required to bring other than personal safety > equipment such as steel-toed boots, welding gloves, cover-alls, ear- > protection and a welding helmet. > > Anyhow, I'm passing this your way, and based on the response I'll go > ahead with further planning. I think it'll be an exciting experience > and a definite boon for anyone contemplating building one of these > boats but unsure of how to go about it. > > Regards, > > Alex Christie > > moderator, Origamiboats | 1096|1090|2002-10-17 16:16:54|Keith Wingate|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Alex, What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep me abreast of development and costs. Thanks, Keith Wingate Maritime Resource Services 17511 Heritage Creek Court Webster, TX 77598-3120 kwing175@... V: 281-554-5549 M: 713-202-8674| 1097|1090|2002-10-17 16:36:46|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Hi Keith, Great to hear from you. The timing for this course will be entirely dependent on what I hear back from Brent himself as to when he may be coming back from the his offshore adventures. It would be great to get something going by spring, but again I'll have to see how the planning goes. I haven't run the numbers on what the course might cost yet, as it is very early in the planning stages, but it should be similar to the reasonable offerings from other places such as WoodenBoat School (they have a two week intro course)and the Northwest School of Boatbuilding in Port Townsend. The location will be in the Comox valley, near Courtenay, BC. I'll keep you posted as to developments. Regards, Alex achristie@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Wingate To: Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:15 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement > Alex, > > What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep me abreast of development and costs. > > Thanks, > Keith Wingate > Maritime Resource Services > 17511 Heritage Creek Court > Webster, TX 77598-3120 > > kwing175@... > > V: 281-554-5549 > M: 713-202-8674 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1098|1093|2002-10-18 22:10:16|Gord Schnell|Re: Bow roller material???|5/16" winch cable works well. You can make your bow rollers from 4"-6" solid epoxy (or similar) caster wheels turned on a lathe to suit. Bert wrote: > > Hi all. I'm wondering what might be successful as a > relatively inexpensive material for anchor chain/line bow > rollers? What general diameter seems to work? > I see some awfully pricey bow roller replacements in the > marine catalogs....;o( > > Best to all, Bert Eggers in Michigan > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > [Image] [Image] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1099|1099|2002-10-19 16:50:55|jonhackett44|Vancouver boats|A friend and I are driving up to Vancouver next weekend and would appreciate seeing any Swain boats while there. Please email me directly if there are any examples we can see. Thanks in advance! Jon and Laurie jonhackett@...| 1100|1099|2002-10-19 20:20:04|fmichael graham|Re: Vancouver boats|I know that Ray Donaldson has a 27' Swain, "Dove III", at his brokerage. The brokerage is called "Harbour Yacht Sales" and is located on Marine Drive in West Vancouver, at Eagle Harbour, just past Thunderbird Marina. I believe that Ray is open on Saturday, but not Sunday. The telephone number is: (604)921-7428. You can view the boat on Ray's website: www.harbouryachtsales.com Good luck jonhackett44 wrote:A friend and I are driving up to Vancouver next weekend and would appreciate seeing any Swain boats while there. Please email me directly if there are any examples we can see. Thanks in advance! Jon and Laurie jonhackett@... Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1101|1090|2002-10-19 23:13:08|david_hilliar|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Hi all This is a great idea unfortunatly it is a long way from New Zealand and impossible for me to come. As a suggestion how about also making a video of the process so we can see how it is done. If the price is right I would purchase a video of the what the attendies are taught. Since reading Brets book I am very interested in the process and design. Keep up the good work. David --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > Hi Keith, > > Great to hear from you. > > The timing for this course will be entirely dependent on what I hear back > from Brent himself as to when he may be coming back from the his offshore > adventures. It would be great to get something going by spring, but again > I'll have to see how the planning goes. > > I haven't run the numbers on what the course might cost yet, as it is very > early in the planning stages, but it should be similar to the reasonable > offerings from other places such as WoodenBoat School (they have a two week > intro > course)and the Northwest School of Boatbuilding in Port Townsend. > > The location will be in the Comox valley, near Courtenay, BC. > > I'll keep you posted as to developments. > > Regards, > > Alex > > achristie@t... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Wingate > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:15 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement > > > > Alex, > > > > What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep > me abreast of development and costs. > > > > Thanks, > > Keith Wingate > > Maritime Resource Services > > 17511 Heritage Creek Court > > Webster, TX 77598-3120 > > > > kwing175@e... > > > > V: 281-554-5549 > > M: 713-202-8674 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > | 1102|1090|2002-10-19 23:25:47|Brian Dixon|Brent's book|I emailed Brent a few days ago asking about where to send for the book and how much it is. Anyone know? And I can't find a web site for the Swain boats...I wonder why not? Seems very odd in today's world... Brian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1103|1090|2002-10-20 00:31:02|Pat Folk|Re: Brent's book|Here is his webpage: http://www.boatbuilding.ws/brent.htm At 08:25 PM 10/19/02, you wrote: >I emailed Brent a few days ago asking about where to send for the book >and how much it is. Anyone know? And I can't find a web site for the >Swain boats...I wonder why not? Seems very odd in today's world... > >Brian > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | 1104|1090|2002-10-20 01:08:16|Alex Christie|Re: Brent's book|Brian, Brent would not be able to respond to any emails currently as he is about half way across the Pacific Ocean in his boat! He does have someone handling the mailouts of his books and plans while he is away, however. To order his book by mail, write to: Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 The cost is USD$20 plus $3 for shipping, payable to Brent Swain. I believe he takes cheque or money order. As for websites, there is no official website for Brent currently. The www.boatbuilding.ws website is for Confidence Custom Steel Boatbuilding in Penticton, which features Brent's boat designs in their repertoire but are not connected to him beyond that. So far, Brent is pretty happy with the Yahoo group site, though I am working on getting a new site up sometime this winter. Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" wrote: > I emailed Brent a few days ago asking about where to send for the book > and how much it is. Anyone know? And I can't find a web site for the > Swain boats...I wonder why not? Seems very odd in today's world... > > Brian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1105|1090|2002-10-20 18:16:04|fmichael graham|Re: Brent's book|Alex, Thanks for your support & assistance to us builders & wannabe's. I am also looking for Brent's book. Popeye's Marine Store (North Vancouver) used to sell it but I haven't seen it there on my last few visits. Is there a store in the Vancouver area that stocks it? Where does one go to discuss the purchase of Brent's boat design plans? Am I right in assuming that you are Brent's alter-ego whilst he travels the planet or are you just some poor guy whom has been dragged - kicking and screaming - into the forum of answering our questions? Anyway, thanks for all of your efforts. Regards, Mike Graham (fmichaelgraham@...) Alex Christie wrote:Brian, Brent would not be able to respond to any emails currently as he is about half way across the Pacific Ocean in his boat! He does have someone handling the mailouts of his books and plans while he is away, however. To order his book by mail, write to: Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 The cost is USD$20 plus $3 for shipping, payable to Brent Swain. I believe he takes cheque or money order. As for websites, there is no official website for Brent currently. The www.boatbuilding.ws website is for Confidence Custom Steel Boatbuilding in Penticton, which features Brent's boat designs in their repertoire but are not connected to him beyond that. So far, Brent is pretty happy with the Yahoo group site, though I am working on getting a new site up sometime this winter. Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" wrote: > I emailed Brent a few days ago asking about where to send for the book > and how much it is. Anyone know? And I can't find a web site for the > Swain boats...I wonder why not? Seems very odd in today's world... > > Brian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1106|1090|2002-10-21 16:04:05|Alex Christie|Re: Brent's book|Yes Mike, I was dragged kicking and screaming! Actually kidding, it has been a great pleasure spreadin' the good word about these boats over the past couple of years, and equally rewarding meeting some fine cruising people who have built to his design. They seem to be a really good lot, and I don't know if this is a function of being cruisers, or it is the kind of people attracted to the style and practicality of his boats, but I like what I have seen of that world. As to being Brent's alter-ego...I wouldn't go that far!:) Popeye's has carried his book before, but perhaps they haven't been restocked before Brent left. It is likely best to get the book by mail at the address listed in the files section or group home page, as he has someone who will ship out books and plans for him while he is away. Write to: Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive Royston, BC V0R-1 Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350, and $500 for the 40. The book is $20 plus $3 for postage. Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., fmichael graham wrote: > > Alex, > Thanks for your support & assistance to us builders & wannabe's. I am also looking for Brent's book. Popeye's Marine Store (North Vancouver) used to sell it but I haven't seen it there on my last few visits. Is there a store in the Vancouver area that stocks it? Where does one go to discuss the purchase of Brent's boat design plans? Am I right in assuming that you are Brent's alter-ego whilst he travels the planet or are you just some poor guy whom has been dragged - kicking and screaming - into the forum of answering our questions? Anyway, thanks for all of your efforts. > Regards, > Mike Graham > (fmichaelgraham@y...) > > Alex Christie wrote:Brian, > > Brent would not be able to respond to any emails currently as he is > about half way across the Pacific Ocean in his boat! He does have > someone handling the mailouts of his books and plans while he is > away, however. > > To order his book by mail, write to: > > Brent Swain > 3798 Laurel Drive, > Royston, British Columbia, > Canada > V0R-2V0 > > The cost is USD$20 plus $3 > for shipping, payable to Brent Swain. I believe he takes cheque or > money order. > > As for websites, there is no official website for Brent currently. > The www.boatbuilding.ws website is for Confidence Custom Steel > Boatbuilding in Penticton, which features Brent's boat designs in > their repertoire but are not connected to him beyond that. So far, > Brent is pretty happy with the Yahoo group site, though I am working > on getting a new site up sometime this winter. > > Alex > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Brian Dixon" wrote: > > I emailed Brent a few days ago asking about where to send for the > book > > and how much it is. Anyone know? And I can't find a web site for > the > > Swain boats...I wonder why not? Seems very odd in today's world... > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1107|1090|2002-10-21 16:08:26|Alex Christie|Brent's postal code|Sorry--I left off the proper postal code for Brent's mailing address: V0R-2V0 > Write to: > > Brent Swain > 3798 Laurel Drive > Royston, BC > V0R-1 > > Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350, and $500 > for the 40. The book is $20 plus $3 for postage. > > Alex | 1108|1090|2002-10-21 16:08:57|Paul Faulkner|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|I would be very interested in an origami boat building class. Having a job and living in Arizona complicate this greatly and my participation would depend on the timing of the course. I would be very interested in a video detailing the construction of an origami boat. ----- Original Message ----- From: david_hilliar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Hi all This is a great idea unfortunatly it is a long way from New Zealand and impossible for me to come. As a suggestion how about also making a video of the process so we can see how it is done. If the price is right I would purchase a video of the what the attendies are taught. Since reading Brets book I am very interested in the process and design. Keep up the good work. David --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > Hi Keith, > > Great to hear from you. > > The timing for this course will be entirely dependent on what I hear back > from Brent himself as to when he may be coming back from the his offshore > adventures. It would be great to get something going by spring, but again > I'll have to see how the planning goes. > > I haven't run the numbers on what the course might cost yet, as it is very > early in the planning stages, but it should be similar to the reasonable > offerings from other places such as WoodenBoat School (they have a two week > intro > course)and the Northwest School of Boatbuilding in Port Townsend. > > The location will be in the Comox valley, near Courtenay, BC. > > I'll keep you posted as to developments. > > Regards, > > Alex > > achristie@t... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Wingate > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:15 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement > > > > Alex, > > > > What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep > me abreast of development and costs. > > > > Thanks, > > Keith Wingate > > Maritime Resource Services > > 17511 Heritage Creek Court > > Webster, TX 77598-3120 > > > > kwing175@e... > > > > V: 281-554-5549 > > M: 713-202-8674 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1109|1090|2002-10-21 20:18:58|The Bumby's|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|If you can keep the cost around 15 for the video, I'ld like one. Thanks! Ernest :^) ----- Original Message ----- From: david_hilliar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Hi all This is a great idea unfortunatly it is a long way from New Zealand and impossible for me to come. As a suggestion how about also making a video of the process so we can see how it is done. If the price is right I would purchase a video of the what the attendies are taught. Since reading Brets book I am very interested in the process and design. Keep up the good work. David --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > Hi Keith, > > Great to hear from you. > > The timing for this course will be entirely dependent on what I hear back > from Brent himself as to when he may be coming back from the his offshore > adventures. It would be great to get something going by spring, but again > I'll have to see how the planning goes. > > I haven't run the numbers on what the course might cost yet, as it is very > early in the planning stages, but it should be similar to the reasonable > offerings from other places such as WoodenBoat School (they have a two week > intro > course)and the Northwest School of Boatbuilding in Port Townsend. > > The location will be in the Comox valley, near Courtenay, BC. > > I'll keep you posted as to developments. > > Regards, > > Alex > > achristie@t... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Wingate > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:15 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement > > > > Alex, > > > > What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep > me abreast of development and costs. > > > > Thanks, > > Keith Wingate > > Maritime Resource Services > > 17511 Heritage Creek Court > > Webster, TX 77598-3120 > > > > kwing175@e... > > > > V: 281-554-5549 > > M: 713-202-8674 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1110|1090|2002-10-21 21:41:46|John Jones|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|Oh yea; A video would be such a cool aid to construction. If yah make one, I'll buy it.... John ---------- From: "The Bumby's" To: Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Date: Mon, Oct 21, 2002, 21:16 If you can keep the cost around 15 for the video, I'ld like one. Thanks! Ernest :^) ----- Original Message ----- From: david_hilliar To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Hi all This is a great idea unfortunatly it is a long way from New Zealand and impossible for me to come. As a suggestion how about also making a video of the process so we can see how it is done. If the price is right I would purchase a video of the what the attendies are taught. Since reading Brets book I am very interested in the process and design. Keep up the good work. David --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > Hi Keith, > > Great to hear from you. > > The timing for this course will be entirely dependent on what I hear back > from Brent himself as to when he may be coming back from the his offshore > adventures. It would be great to get something going by spring, but again > I'll have to see how the planning goes. > > I haven't run the numbers on what the course might cost yet, as it is very > early in the planning stages, but it should be similar to the reasonable > offerings from other places such as WoodenBoat School (they have a two week > intro > course)and the Northwest School of Boatbuilding in Port Townsend. > > The location will be in the Comox valley, near Courtenay, BC. > > I'll keep you posted as to developments. > > Regards, > > Alex > > achristie@t... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Wingate > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 1:15 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement > > > > Alex, > > > > What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep > me abreast of development and costs. > > > > Thanks, > > Keith Wingate > > Maritime Resource Services > > 17511 Heritage Creek Court > > Webster, TX 77598-3120 > > > > kwing175@e... > > > > V: 281-554-5549 > > M: 713-202-8674 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1111|1111|2002-10-22 00:02:32|Graeme Mitchell|Video that would be great|Alex the video idea is great , but I would still be interested in having a building work shop in Australia when you work out the costs, for your local courses please post them so as we pehaps look at costing a course here. Regards Graeme Mitchell [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1112|1112|2002-10-24 14:49:36|Alex Christie|missing posts -- anyone encountering problems?|Is anyone in the group finding that posts that they have made from the website have not appeared? Please let me know so I can query Yahoo about it. There is a log in the management panel which indicates that messages have been posted, but I don't see those messages on the board. Alex| 1113|1113|2002-10-24 15:31:57|richytill|The Plan|In general, the first time you build or repair something it takes a while to figure out better ways to do it: the third time seems to be fairly smooth. I tend to experiment and innovate--there is often a price to pay for this bent(read repeated failure or more time and materials). Thinking in terms of quality and efficiency I have a few observations that may be an asset to, would be, one time builders. These are not irrefutable facts; just the personal observations of one builder. Point 1: delays in construction have been mainly due to my own deviations from the plans and the book. If you decide to do something different be aware that it may require vast amounts of time designing, testing, adapting and making patterns etc. The outcome of experiments may not have the time tested and proven result you will eventually need to be safe at sea. Point 2: scrounge for parts and material early in the game--if you can. This means you can build to fit the components, metal type etc.. Don't be tempted to use a neat gizmo just because you find it free in a pile of junk--use stuff that really works. It helps to have a variety of surpluss stainless to choose from. Lead can often be accumulated at less cost if you take your time arranging to collect it. Point 3: In his book, Brent, with good reason, emphasises the advantage of rapid construction. I planned a long liesurely event: wrong. It costs way more to go slow. If rent is a factor it can add up--it is also possible to wear out your welcome with the neighbours. If the hull is outdoors, the primer on the plate will harden and eventually rust through, all over, in tiny spots and scratches. Rapid construction can help prevent this. After testing, I ended up having to sand blast--a dirty, noisy, unhealthy, time consuming, and very exspensive undertaking that should be avoided if possible. The blasting makes painting harder because of all the grit in the painting environment. Few locations allow blasting and the clean-up is a pain. With some 2 part paints there are re-coat times to consider: check the re-coat window on the type of primer used at wheelabrading. Apparently, fresher zinc primer provides a superior bond for the subsequent epoxy. Point 4: I notice that some people take a lot longer to learn to cut and weld than others. Some adapt, some don't and some just shine from start to finish. This is quite natural. We all have certain skills and talents. There are plenty of other tasks to do besides welding and cutting during building. Perhaps it would be more effective, safe and efficient for some of us to get an experienced welder to help with some of the critical seams and cuts. I suppose that depends on the amount of time and budget one has available. I am at the painting stage on a 36' Swain hull. The process of building has been really enjoyable and very rewarding. Having worked on vessels with internal frames and compared the two proceedures it becomes evident that folded steel is superior in many, many ways. The advantages are extnesively listed throughout this group site. It would be an asset to anyone to see a hull formed by those with experience before attempting it at home. All in all, it has been fun so far and in conclusion, the plan works.| 1114|1114|2002-10-24 17:52:21|mishima_sensei|Do you like to design boats ?|Join the amateur boat design challenge on http://dc.endtas.com The more we will be the more fun it will be... (origami designers are welcome..)| 1115|1112|2002-10-24 20:10:27|Graeme Mitchell|Re: missing posts -- anyone encountering problems?|I have had this problem on a few occasions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 2:49 AM Subject: [origamiboats] missing posts -- anyone encountering problems? > Is anyone in the group finding that posts that they have made from > the website have not appeared? > > Please let me know so I can query Yahoo about it. > > There is a log in the management panel which indicates that messages > have been posted, but I don't see those messages on the board. > > Alex > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1116|1116|2002-10-24 23:27:18|Alex & Kim Christie|missing posts -- false alarm|It turns out that the missing posts issue was a false alarm. I was confused by something in a record log I stumbled on. All back to normal... Alex| 1117|1113|2002-10-26 04:10:26|Alex Christie|Re: The Plan|Thanks for your commentary and reflections on your boatbuilding experiences, Rich. Great stuff! Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., "richytill" wrote: > In general, the first time you build or repair something it takes a > while to figure out better ways to do it: the third time seems to be | 1118|1118|2002-10-26 15:57:18|silascrosby|'Silas Crosby'|Having just returned from a year-long cruise to Mexico and Hawaii I'll pass on a few of my thoughts on our twin-keel 36' Brentboat. We launched the Silas Crosby about 9 yrs. ago and have had 3 trips around Vancouver Is. and a couple of trips to the Queen Charlottes.She is a centre-cockpit version which works well for us as we have kids and cousins and siblings who all want to go sailing. It means we get privacy with a double bunk in the aft -cabin. The cockpit is only 4'long but we can sleep across it by dropping down our cockpit table across the well. We put a new 4-cyl. Isuzu (~50 h.p.) in her and have nearly 3000 hrs. with zero problems. Skeg-cooled,dry exhaust. We put on an Isomat aluminum extrusion for mast and boom and have galvanised rigging.After 9 yrs. there is no rust except near the bottom of the inner forestay where the staysail hanks abrade.I'll replace that this winter for a few dollars.I slopped on some cheap paint on the standing rigging as high as I could reach from the deck just before we left for Mexico a year ago. The boat is painted with Devoe paints. We had the boat zinc flame sprayed after sand blasting at construction. We have no rust and I have done no re-painting yet. Even where it gets chipped it does not rust. I shall re-paint the cabin and topsides next spring to freshen it up. We are pleased with the sailing ability. We sailed from Cabo San Lucas to Hilo in 18 days for an average of ~6 knots.Good winds (double or triple reefed main most of the way) and zero motoring. She sails faster off the wind than our old boat, a Spencer 35, and perhaps as well to windward. On our return from Hawaii we had 3 days of spinnaker sailing ,around the clock,at ~4-5 knots of boat speed where the quick and simple wind-vane ( direct connection to trim-tab with verical axis vane) steered without human intervention.This is as as good as RVG,Aries,or Fleming vanes that I have used in the past.We still have not invested in an autopilot. We do not hand steer at sea. I could go on and on . All for now. Steve Millar, Courtenay.| 1119|1118|2002-10-26 20:18:48|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: 'Silas Crosby'|Thanks for your anecdotes and thoughts Steve. It is the real-world use of these boats that tells us so much about how they perform and how it is living with and maintaining these boats. What you wrote is invaluable. Send us another installment! Alex --- silascrosby wrote: > Having just returned from a year-long cruise to > Mexico and Hawaii > I'll pass on a few of my thoughts on our twin-keel > 36' Brentboat. We ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 1120|1120|2002-10-28 14:44:42|Alex & Kim Christie|engine driven welder|Hey folks, I just stumbled across this - http://www.zena.net/ -- an engine driven 150 amp welder that is powerful enough to build your boat, or certainly repair boats anywhere in the world. It is DC, so can weld stainless, aluminum, mild steel. Also functions as a high output alternator. Very handy, and makes good friends out of yachties with broken metal parts... Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1121|1121|2002-10-28 14:59:34|Alex & Kim Christie|using autoship to design origami hull|Here's a little write-up by Grahame Shannon (designer), explaining how he used Autoship to design a larger hull to be built using Brent's origami techniques. A 47 foot hull was produced as a result. Unfortunately, no plans were to be made availabe to the public by Shannon or the builder (Sailtech or Fastwater). I know, because I spoke personally to Shannon, and he told me he wasn't interested in amateurs building to his design. You could try, but I wouldn't waste much time trying to get the plans if I were you. Besides, with the advent of Brent's 40 foot design, this issue is laid to rest and I got what I want! Interesting to read about the use of the computer to design one of these boats, in any case. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1122|1122|2002-10-29 00:07:50|Jim|another engine driven welder to ponder|another engine driven welder to ponder http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index2.html I have installed and use two different unit of this variety. I was very pleased. I have yet to equip any of my fleet with such equipment- but definitely was pleased with what I saw. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1123|1121|2002-10-29 00:23:41|Pat Folk|Re: using autoship to design origami hull|I think I missed part of this message. I am not able to find the reference you mention. At 11:58 AM 10/28/02, you wrote: >Here's a little write-up by Grahame Shannon (designer), explaining how he >used Autoship to design a larger hull to be built using Brent's origami >techniques. | 1124|1124|2002-10-29 02:57:31|Graeme Mitchell|(no subject)|What's with some of these designers they are to good for every one else. stuff them I say . Do not want mugs to build boats from their plans what's the world coming too. Dip them in honey and throw them to the lesbians that will teach them. Home builders most likely buy more plans than boat builders, whether they actual get used that is another thing . It does keep some of the designers in work. So [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1125|1121|2002-10-29 11:42:18|Alex Christie|oops, URL for "using autoship to design origami hull"|http://www.autoship.com/whatsnew/Fall1996Body.htm Sorry 'bout that, the reference to Swain's hullform is in the 5ht article down (called FASTWATER 47), or use "find" function in "edit" on your toolbar with "swain" and it'll take you right there. Cheers, Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., Pat Folk wrote: > I think I missed part of this message. I am not able to find the reference > you mention. > > > > At 11:58 AM 10/28/02, you wrote: > >Here's a little write-up by Grahame Shannon (designer), explaining how he > >used Autoship to design a larger hull to be built using Brent's origami > >techniques. | 1126|1122|2002-10-29 13:52:31|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: another engine driven welder to ponder|Is there anyone in the group who has marine electrical experience? I am curious to know whether either of the previously mentioned alternator/welders survive well in the salt-laden atmospher of the marine engine environment. They appear to be mostly advertised for under-hood of truck applications, though www.zena.net mentions marine use (and their warranty covers the unit in marine use). I had a boat once which came with a defunct volkswagen diesel (the previous owner had tried to convert it, unsuccessfully). In my forensic explorations of its carcass, I noted that most of the electrical components, including the alternator, were badly corroded --damaged by the salt air and mixed metals. I wouldn't stake my life on them in a tricky situation! As a side note to anyone considering the VW pathfinder conversions, I might also point out that the aluminum bell-housing where it used to attach to the old transmission was nothing but crumbling dust. The alloy was simply not meant for salty air, I guess. I'll allow that the old boat, made of wood with a fresh supply of salt water in the bilge, presented a harsher climate than the dry interior of a steel boat. But still, it makes one pause to consider the corrosion resistance of metals in whatever you put into a boat. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder > another engine driven welder to ponder > > > http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index2.html > | 1127|1122|2002-10-29 17:17:08|John Jones|Re: another engine driven welder to ponder|Go for diesel ALWAYS, it's safer, uses less fuel and re-sells faster ... and if you can ... oversize, just in case you get the need. ---------- From: Jim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 1:07 another engine driven welder to ponder http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index2.html I have installed and use two different unit of this variety. I was very pleased. I have yet to equip any of my fleet with such equipment- but definitely was pleased with what I saw. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1128|1128|2002-10-29 17:17:14|John Jones|Re: |YEAH!!! ---------- From: "Graeme Mitchell" To: Subject: [origamiboats] Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 2:57 What's with some of these designers they are to good for every one else. stuff them I say . Do not want mugs to build boats from their plans what's the world coming too. Dip them in honey and throw them to the lesbians that will teach them. Home builders most likely buy more plans than boat builders, whether they actual get used that is another thing . It does keep some of the designers in work. So [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1129|1122|2002-10-29 17:58:42|Jim|Re: another engine driven welder to ponder|Alex, One thing to mention is this; The pemier Power welder (all that I have had in hand to touch and feel) is a Bosch 200Amp alternator that then sends electricity to an auxilary mounted box in which there is a rectifing diode set to get it to DC. So what I'm getting at is that the alt. is engine mounted however the aux. box can be mounted where-ever. The alt. is going to corrode just as any other would. I do know that if you were to take apart an alternator and have the aluminum frame/ housing anandized and then have the armature re-wound with 316L SS and lastly replace the normally glass housed dioded with those which are epoxy packed- you will have a very corrosion resistant setup. The glass diode needs to be replaced with the epoxy packed for mainly one reason: when it does its job it produce a fare bit o heat and should it get splashed- the glass will burst, the epoxy will not. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder Is there anyone in the group who has marine electrical experience? I am curious to know whether either of the previously mentioned alternator/welders survive well in the salt-laden atmospher of the marine engine environment. They appear to be mostly advertised for under-hood of truck applications, though www.zena.net mentions marine use (and their warranty covers the unit in marine use). I had a boat once which came with a defunct volkswagen diesel (the previous owner had tried to convert it, unsuccessfully). In my forensic explorations of its carcass, I noted that most of the electrical components, including the alternator, were badly corroded --damaged by the salt air and mixed metals. I wouldn't stake my life on them in a tricky situation! As a side note to anyone considering the VW pathfinder conversions, I might also point out that the aluminum bell-housing where it used to attach to the old transmission was nothing but crumbling dust. The alloy was simply not meant for salty air, I guess. I'll allow that the old boat, made of wood with a fresh supply of salt water in the bilge, presented a harsher climate than the dry interior of a steel boat. But still, it makes one pause to consider the corrosion resistance of metals in whatever you put into a boat. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder > another engine driven welder to ponder > > > http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index2.html > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1130|1130|2002-10-30 11:56:19|riptide0037|"silascrosby"|Steve Really enjoyed the account of your trip.Having just purchased a 36 twin keel with only one short trip in it so far I am keen to hear any info re how they sail,how you have it rigged etc. Please post more when you can.Would love to look at your boat sometime. Robert| 1131|1131|2002-10-31 16:07:39|edward_stoneuk|Skeg cooler|Are there any views on using the leading edge 1½" pipe on the skeg as a return for coolant when the skeg is used as an engine cooler? Regards, Ted| 1132|1131|2002-10-31 22:55:56|Gord Schnell|Re: Skeg cooler|I considered that also, but, the stern tube and prop shaft intersect it and prevent that approach. Gord edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Are there any views on using the leading edge 1½" pipe on > the skeg as > a return for coolant when the skeg is used as an engine > cooler? > > Regards, > > Ted > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > [Image] [Image] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1133|1131|2002-10-31 23:19:41|darryl_marlene|Re: Skeg cooler|--- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Are there any views on using the leading edge 1½" pipe on the skeg as > a return for coolant when the skeg is used as an engine cooler? > > Regards, > > Ted Hi ted I used this method successfully on my 36 foot Brent Swain . Instead of using the top of the pipe I welded another pipe near the top of it that came forward and through the hull under the shaft. It works great. My engine is mounted in the center of the boat but it should work on you`re boat too.. I also have an under the hood welder on board and have not had any problem`s . With dry exhaust you can weld on the hard most of the day in summer without overheating the engine . Carefull not to blister the paint at the top of the skeg where the hot water enters. Regard` Darryl `S.V.'IKALE| 1134|1134|2002-11-01 10:18:48|Phil S.|Dry Exhaust?|Ok I was looking at the diagram in Brent's book. it looks like the exhuast comes out the stern below the water line. That looks like a really simple way to solve that problem but doesn't the heat effect the hull where it exits?| 1135|1134|2002-11-01 10:48:26|silascrosby|Re: Dry Exhaust?|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Phil S." wrote: > Ok I was looking at the diagram in Brent's book. it looks like the > exhuast comes out the stern below the water line. That looks like > a really simple way to solve that problem but doesn't the heat effect the hull where it exits? My dry exhaust exits at the waterline so with any boat movement it is submerged and cooled . No problem with paint in that area from overheating. I would have liked to try incorporating it into the radar\solar panel arch over the aft deck. I saw this on a Finnish aluminum boat and it kept the exhaust smoke away from the crew and made it less likely to get water in the exhaust. I have a gooseneck in the exhaust pipe that goes up under the aft cabin overhead(well above the waterline),as well as a ss ball-valve at the transom , as well as a flapper valve at the top of the exhaust "snorkel" which is about two feet above the waterline. Additionally,in a big following sea, I reach over and put a zip-lock bag over the exhaust end( no problem if I forget it). Steve Millar| 1136|1134|2002-11-01 13:50:32|Phil S.|Re: Dry Exhaust?|Thanks, I was trying to come up with a better way to vent the exhuast. I didn't like the Idea of a stack up through the cabin. How is the stack insulated? Phil --- In origamiboats@y..., "silascrosby" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Phil S." wrote: > > Ok I was looking at the diagram in Brent's book. it looks like the > > exhuast comes out the stern below the water line. That looks like > > a really simple way to solve that problem but doesn't the heat > effect the hull where it exits? > My dry exhaust exits at the waterline so with any boat movement it > is submerged and cooled . No problem with paint in that area from > overheating. I would have liked to try incorporating it into the > radar\solar panel arch over the aft deck. I saw this on a Finnish > aluminum boat and it kept the exhaust smoke away from the crew and > made it less likely to get water in the exhaust. I have a gooseneck > in the exhaust pipe that goes up under the aft cabin overhead(well > above the waterline),as well as a ss ball-valve at the transom , as > well as a flapper valve at the top of the exhaust "snorkel" which is > about two feet above the waterline. Additionally,in a big following > sea, I reach over and put a zip-lock bag over the exhaust end( no > problem if I forget it). Steve Millar | 1137|1137|2002-11-01 15:46:55|Phil S.|Corroseal?|Does any one have any experiance with a product called corroseal? I can't seem to find pre primed steel in my area, I really don't want to have to sand blast. I found an ad in B&H for a product called Corroseal, supposedly it is a rust converting primer. It coverts rust to a crystalline layer of black magnetite. Any one tried it? Phil| 1138|1138|2002-11-01 22:26:29|Tom Y.|Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD|Found this: http://www.zena.net Check it out. Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1139|1137|2002-11-01 23:40:48|John Jones|Re: Corroseal?|Good stuff I've used it and for me, it did what it said it would do. Just follow the instructions. There are limits to what it can save though ---------- From: "Phil S." To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Corroseal? Date: Fri, Nov 1, 2002, 15:46 Does any one have any experiance with a product called corroseal? I can't seem to find pre primed steel in my area, I really don't want to have to sand blast. I found an ad in B&H for a product called Corroseal, supposedly it is a rust converting primer. It coverts rust to a crystalline layer of black magnetite. Any one tried it? Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1140|1138|2002-11-02 22:27:55|darryl_marlene|Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD|--- In origamiboats@y..., "Tom Y." wrote: > Found this: > http://www.zena.net > Check it out. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi Tom I checked out that wedsite and those welders look pretty good. if anyone is woundering how big to go 150 or 200 amp. My own is only 130 amps. and it welds 1/8 in. mild steel and S.S. rods with no problem at 100% duty cycle . these welders do work as good as they say in the ad Darryl| 1141|1138|2002-11-02 22:46:41|Tom Y.|Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD|I think every so often, they put it on ebay for promotion. Like this one just ended: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1782547950&rd=1 You can have it for $405 or less depends on its reserved price. I wonder how well it charges the batteries... three stages or what? How's yours Darryl? Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: darryl_marlene To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 7:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD --- In origamiboats@y..., "Tom Y." wrote: > Found this: > http://www.zena.net > Check it out. > > Tom > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi Tom I checked out that wedsite and those welders look pretty good. if anyone is woundering how big to go 150 or 200 amp. My own is only 130 amps. and it welds 1/8 in. mild steel and S.S. rods with no problem at 100% duty cycle . these welders do work as good as they say in the ad Darryl To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1142|1122|2002-11-03 00:17:40|T & D Cain|Re: another engine driven welder to ponder|Alex. & Jim, Corrosion is always a threat as you well understand, however, the way alternators are built and processed before assembly helps to retard the process. In particular, the stator and rotor windings of the usual 3 phase high-speed claw-pole alternator are wound with a high conductivity copper wire which is itself carrying a very tough skin of polyester varnish capable of providing a large margin of insulation from one turn to the next etc. and also resisting corrosion and abrasion quite well. It is often the connections which corrode, not the windings. After the windings are mounted in or on these components, they are usually give an additional coat of varnish using a vacuum impregnation process. There is always some compromise in any mass-produced process and in some cases the last step omitted, or is a thin coat since heat must be transferred to the air flow which is doing the cooling. Now to the point: You will not be able to buy 316 insulated wire (or any other grade of Cr/Ni) to do a rewind and neither would it be a good idea. We are talking material which is not too far from heater and toaster wire here, and if you wound any alternator with a stainless alloy, the output would be around 10% of the same unit wound with copper even if you could prevent the windings from shorting between turns!!! The relative resistivity is anything from 2 to 5, depending on the alloy. Toaster wire was originally called 'Nichrome'. It is not uncommon to see units which have been "tropicalised" by double dipping the wound components in a high quality electrical insulating varnish. This will have some small negative effect on the output versus component life because the copper temperature will rise to a higher value (and its resistance also in a bootstrapping-like way) because of the higher thermal resistivity of the coating. The heat must go somewhere. The last bit is a trade-off and usually the added corrosion protection is worth the consequence. On the diode packs, I wouldn't change a thing. A thin conformal coating of a Dow Corning compound would give adequate protection to the components and their connections. Genuine marine components usually have their internal electrical systems insulated from their frames, ie. They are a true two-wire device. Alternators of the automotive type are not easily converted to marine usage for other reasons. The majority have their frame as one of the DC connections and in steel boats, this feature (along with the automotive starter motor) has to be accounted for by isolating the entire engine via mounts and couplings and everything else that touches it in an electrical sense - ignore the seawater connections, they are not a major factor. This is not a huge problem, most installations these days feature soft flexible engine mounts (insulated) and a synthetic spacer after the transmission output flange. Throttle and gearshift are easily isolated from the boat or engine, only one end needs to be so. Some installations could use an insulated mounting for the alternator (vee belt drive) and a twin solenoid setup for the starter. However, in this case, all other sensors etc on the engine itself will be two-wire types which are isolated from the engine carcass. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Jim [mailto:tenfrozentoes@...] Sent: Wednesday, 30 October 2002 9:28 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder Alex, One thing to mention is this; The pemier Power welder (all that I have had in hand to touch and feel) is a Bosch 200Amp alternator that then sends electricity to an auxilary mounted box in which there is a rectifing diode set to get it to DC. So what I'm getting at is that the alt. is engine mounted however the aux. box can be mounted where-ever. The alt. is going to corrode just as any other would. I do know that if you were to take apart an alternator and have the aluminum frame/ housing anandized and then have the armature re-wound with 316L SS and lastly replace the normally glass housed dioded with those which are epoxy packed- you will have a very corrosion resistant setup. The glass diode needs to be replaced with the epoxy packed for mainly one reason: when it does its job it produce a fare bit o heat and should it get splashed- the glass will burst, the epoxy will not. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder Is there anyone in the group who has marine electrical experience? I am curious to know whether either of the previously mentioned alternator/welders survive well in the salt-laden atmospher of the marine engine environment. They appear to be mostly advertised for under-hood of truck applications, though www.zena.net mentions marine use (and their warranty covers the unit in marine use). I had a boat once which came with a defunct volkswagen diesel (the previous owner had tried to convert it, unsuccessfully). In my forensic explorations of its carcass, I noted that most of the electrical components, including the alternator, were badly corroded --damaged by the salt air and mixed metals. I wouldn't stake my life on them in a tricky situation! As a side note to anyone considering the VW pathfinder conversions, I might also point out that the aluminum bell-housing where it used to attach to the old transmission was nothing but crumbling dust. The alloy was simply not meant for salty air, I guess. I'll allow that the old boat, made of wood with a fresh supply of salt water in the bilge, presented a harsher climate than the dry interior of a steel boat. But still, it makes one pause to consider the corrosion resistance of metals in whatever you put into a boat. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:07 PM Subject: [origamiboats] another engine driven welder to ponder > another engine driven welder to ponder > > > http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index2.html > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | 1143|1143|2002-11-03 03:17:48|Graeme Mitchell|welder |Hi all again There was a few years back some instructions to make a vehicle alternator into a welder I will see if I can find it. It was very simple to make an alternator into a welder as I said I will see if I can find it and post it. Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1144|1144|2002-11-03 03:18:35|Graeme Mitchell|(no subject)|opps hi terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1145|1145|2002-11-03 09:06:52|Sharad Sharma|origamiboats welder|Hi All After reading Mitchell's messazge i remember looking at this page on the web this page shows how u can assemble a simple Dc arc welder regards Sharad Sharma http://huv.com/jon/jeep/ Sharad Sharma Interworld Associates Nassaustraat # 108 D Oranjestad Aruba Dutch Caribbean Ph 0297829868 /0297633311 839277 Fx 0297829959 ICQ # is 8884436| 1146|1145|2002-11-03 15:23:32|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: origamiboats welder|That link for the home-made welder is great, Sharad, truly in the origamiboat spirit! Now, I am wondering how you control the amperage -- is there something you put on it as you would on a regular welder? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharad Sharma To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 7:13 AM Subject: [origamiboats] origamiboats welder > Hi All > > After reading Mitchell's messazge i remember looking at this page > on the web this page shows how u can assemble a simple Dc arc > welder > regards Sharad Sharma > | 1147|1147|2002-11-03 16:31:47|Gary H. Lucas|Going sailing|I am heading for the Seattle area on Tuesday from New Jersey to visit a customer. I have made plans with Dale Deforest to go sailing on his 36' Brent Swain boat on Saturday. Should be very interesting, I've never actually been on board a metal boat before. I have a digital camera, I'll take some pictures of Dale's boat if anyone is interested. Gary H. Lucas| 1148|1145|2002-11-03 17:17:33|Sharad Sharma|welder|Hi all I honestly do not know as i have not tried it yet but will check with jon and get back if i have a reply i do not know if there are and tech savy people in our group who may be able to help regards Sharad Sharma That link for the home-made welder is great, Sharad, truly in the origamiboat spirit! Now, I am wondering how you control the amperage -- is there something you put on it as you would on a regular welder? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharad Sharma To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 7:13 AM Subject: [origamiboats] origamiboats welder > Hi All > > After reading Mitchell's messazge i remember looking at this page > on the web this page shows how u can assemble a simple Dc arc > welder > regards Sharad Sharma > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.Sharad Sharma Interworld Associates Nassaustraat # 108 D Oranjestad Aruba Dutch Caribbean Ph 0297829868 /0297633311 839277 Fx 0297829959 ICQ # is 8884436 | 1149|1149|2002-11-03 18:53:51|Graeme Mitchell|Welder home built|Sharad Thanks for finding that will save me going through old papers that are in the shed . Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1150|1138|2002-11-03 22:03:15|darryl_marlene|Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD|- Tom on my welder the regulator is a single stage ford type reg. it`s external so a three stage regulator can be installed. on my unit to change the amps when welding you increase or decrease the engine RPM. Darryl -- In origamiboats@y..., "Tom Y." wrote: > I think every so often, they put it on ebay for promotion. Like this one just > ended: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1782547950&rd=1 > You can have it for $405 or less depends on its reserved price. > > I wonder how well it charges the batteries... three stages or what? > How's yours Darryl? > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: darryl_marlene > To: origamiboats@y... > Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 7:27 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "Tom Y." wrote: > > Found this: > > http://www.zena.net > > Check it out. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Hi Tom > I checked out that wedsite and those welders look pretty good. > > if anyone is woundering how big to go 150 or 200 amp. My own is > only 130 amps. and it welds 1/8 in. mild steel and S.S. rods with no > problem at 100% duty cycle . > these welders do work as good as they say in the ad > Darryl > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1151|1144|2002-11-04 02:36:02|T & D Cain|Re: |Hi Graeme, THC -----Original Message----- From: Graeme Mitchell [mailto:g.mitch@...] Sent: Sunday, 3 November 2002 17:48 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] opps hi terry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/| 1152|1137|2002-11-04 09:18:21|Phil S.|Re: Corroseal?|Basically I am going to use Corroseal instead of sand blasting the whole hull. What type of paint did you put over the stuff? I will get a sample to try out though. Thanks for the input. Phil --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > Good stuff > I've used it and for me, it did what it said it would do. Just follow the > instructions. There are limits to what it can save though > > ---------- > From: "Phil S." > To: origamiboats@y... > Subject: [origamiboats] Corroseal? > Date: Fri, Nov 1, 2002, 15:46 > > > Does any one have any experiance with a product called > corroseal? I can't seem to find pre primed steel in my area, I > really don't want to have to sand blast. I found an ad in B&H for a > product called Corroseal, supposedly it is a rust converting > primer. It coverts rust to a crystalline layer of black magnetite. Any > one tried it? > > Phil > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1153|1147|2002-11-04 09:21:06|Phil S.|Re: Going sailing|Please post the pictures!!!! Phil --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > I am heading for the Seattle area on Tuesday from New Jersey to visit a > customer. I have made plans with Dale Deforest to go sailing on his 36' > Brent Swain boat on Saturday. Should be very interesting, I've never > actually been on board a metal boat before. I have a digital camera, I'll > take some pictures of Dale's boat if anyone is interested. > > Gary H. Lucas | 1154|1154|2002-11-04 13:16:08|intiaboats|Re: welding alternators|Just a thought; As a welder I would be more than a little concerned about using one of these engine-driven alternators for welding. I think that you would need a system that would supply a more stable arc and a safer method of current control than an adjuster attached to your stinger. In order to run at a true 100% duty cycle would take a very efficient system, one that I have not seen with any conventional welding machine. Then again, how many welders run at better than 60%? As for the "heat" control, I wouldn't be overly eager to hold several hundred amps of potential melt-down/short-circuit in my hand. There seems to be too great a chance to become part of the arc. However, I defer to those whom have used these same systems and look forward to their comments regarding my safety concerns. Mike| 1155|1131|2002-11-05 15:03:30|edward_stoneuk|Re: Skeg cooler|Darryl and Gord, Many thanks for your info. How did you set up the exhaust? Did you use a muffler or put the outlet under water? Regards, Ted| 1156|1156|2002-11-05 20:42:00|Alex & Kim Christie|photo of external water muffler|To see how Brent muffles the exhaust on his boat, look at the photo album under "31' Sloop" under "skeg detail". While not very pretty, this is probably the simplest, most low-tech way to muffle the exhaust, using the Pacific Ocean as the muffler. There is a flap on the end of the outlet, which is below the water. The pipe enters the hull above the waterline. The objects above the exhaust pipe are the base of the swing-down boarding ladder and the exit point of the control rod from the inside steering station (connected to the trim tab on the rudder). Alex| 1157|1157|2002-11-05 21:00:02|Alex Christie|Brent's original post on external exhaust|I just realized Brent had written about this before, so I'll repost what he wrote: From: "brentswain38" Date: Sat May 18, 2002 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW! Several friends have used underwater exhaust.A 10 guage hull with flat surfaces drummed a lot . A 36 footer with a 3/16th hull and 3 cylindre engine had no problem as the exhaust went out through a slighly curved and well re-inforced part of the hull. I tried it with a single cylindre diesel and the drumming was uncacceptable.Extending the exhaust several inches beyond the hull helped a bit but not enough. I now run a dry exhaust out the transom and use a couple of elbows to take it below the waterline where a rubber flap acts as a check valve . It has a 1/4 inch hole in the upper elbow for a siphon break. It has worked well for many years.I threw away the muffler and it didn't make any significant difference to the sound level. Diesel engineers have told me that you can go down 3 feet before back pressure becomes a problem, altho going 6 inches below the surface effectivly kills any sound you would otherwise hear. Brent Swain| 1158|1156|2002-11-06 04:36:06|edward_stoneuk|Re: photo of external water muffler|Thanks Alex, A few more questions you may be able to help me with: Is the rubber flap valve made from a bicycle inner tube hose clipped to the exhaust pipe? It appears to be from the photo but one can't see for sure. Is the pipe galvanised water pipe or stainless? Is there a flexible connector between the pipe and the engine? Is it wrapped with insulation? Regards, Ted| 1159|1156|2002-11-06 12:20:26|Alex Christie|Re: photo of external water muffler|Ted, The rubber flap is made of the inner sidewall of a car tire, and the external pipe is stainless. I haven't seen inside how Brent has the pipe connected to the engine, but I do know the main pipe is sch 40 stainless. I am guessing that if it is metal all the way to the engine, the last bit would be that semi-flexible pipe that looks a bit like accordian bellows (available from marine suppliers). The engine is solid-mounted, so not too much jumping around. On my old glass boat there was a reinforced rubber hose, but this was water cooled. Because Brent's exhaust is dry, I don't think he'd use rubber for the flexible connection. As for lagging the pipe, it's pure conjecture on my part but it is likely not needed since the hull is steel, unless you needed to protect humans from getting burnt by contact. I'll leave with the usual caveat to give Brent the last word on this - - whenever he gets ashore! Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Thanks Alex, > > A few more questions you may be able to help me with: > Is the rubber flap valve made from a bicycle inner tube hose clipped > to the exhaust pipe? It appears to be from the photo but one can't > see for sure. > Is the pipe galvanised water pipe or stainless? > Is there a flexible connector between the pipe and the engine? > Is it wrapped with insulation? > > Regards, > > Ted | 1160|1147|2002-11-06 21:49:20|silascrosby|Re: Going sailing|Gary, Dale and I had an informal match race in Comox Bay a couple of years ago. My boat is a twin-keeler and Dale's is a fin-keeler.He was faster close-hauled and we were pretty closely matched off the wind. I would sure like to do a re-match some day and really spend some time to quantify the performance differences. On the day we went out it was kind of gusty. I was singlehanding and Dale had an inexperienced friend along.It was fun sailing but no time for photos.My hands were full as I did not have my windvane functioning at that time. Say hello to Dale for me. Steve Millar.| 1161|1161|2002-11-07 15:06:00|Phil S.|Reading old Posts|As a fairly recent addition to this forum I decided to start at post one and read through. Wow, what a wealth of information, some of it useful, other just interesting. Alex, Thanks for taking the time to moderate this page. Phil| 1162|1161|2002-11-08 14:26:01|Alex Christie|Re: Reading old Posts|Thanks for your comments Phil. I have really enjoyed moderating the Origamiboats page these past two years, and look forward to more interesting posts from people around the world. I just took a trip down "Memory Lane" with a tour of the old posts myself and have realized how much knowledge people have contributed in addition to Brent's information and advice. Despite having to put up with Yahoo's advertising we've certainly made some great connections worldwide with this service, and for that I'm grateful. With the Yahoo service, the "group" has been nurtured into an entity in its own right. Not bad for something that doesn't cost money to sign up with! At some point, an idea such as this grows big enough that the author of the thing is prompted to risk giving it some real lifeblood and letting it fly free. So..I'm currently hard at work putting together an official Origamiboats website, and hope to have it up by the new year, giving us another home on the web with easy access. I have never done website creation before, so don't expect much at first, but I am drawing in resources (ie, web-designing friends) as needed to help get this thing up and running. Some of the old posts are so interesting that I'll have to put a special archival section in the new site that reprints some of the best posts! I am hoping that the new site will work in tandem with the Yahoo group, especially as a repository for articles and images that people can refer to easily. Eventually a forum could be set up on the new site (once I figure out how to do it), but I expect that is a long way off. Happy boatbuilding and boating to all, Alex Christie --- In origamiboats@y..., "Phil S." wrote: > As a fairly recent addition to this forum I decided to start at post > one and read through. Wow, what a wealth of information, some > of it useful, other just interesting. > > Alex, Thanks for taking the time to moderate this page. > Phil | 1163|1163|2002-11-09 18:37:52|edward_stoneuk|Cockpits|Looking at the photo the inside aft of Ocean Pearl, it doesn't appear to have a cockpit well, which together with no internal engine gives much more space for a stern cabin. Joshua Slocum's Spray didn't have a cockpit, nor does Tom Colvin's Gazelle. I am considering not fitting one on the 36' Brent design I am building. What are folks' views on the pros and cons of cockpits? Regards, Ted| 1164|1131|2002-11-10 00:57:05|darryl_marlene|Dry exhaust|--Ted My dry exhaust goes like this. My 3 cyl. Isuzu is mounted on rubber mounts so I use a flex pipe near the engine .Muffler shops carry flex pipes or you can pay much more at a marine supplier. Since the flex pipe is close to the engine and gets very hot it don`t have to be stainless steel. From there I used S.S. pipe that is routed from my center mounted engine up and out the rear cabin wall into the combing where it goes into a resonator then a few inches and into a muffler then out the back of the combing with an elbow down to 4 inches above the water.. I wrapped the entire system with an exhaust wrap you can get at a marine supplier .....It`s to keep the inside of the boat from getting to hot. At first I tried a dry stack above the boat and had a lot of soot landing on the deck Not Good... With one muffler and no resonator it was too loud at cruising speed.. I tried Brent`s method of exhausting below the water but it is quieter above the water ,And if you go to all the hassle of dry exhaust why have water in the end of the pipe? As you can tell it took awhile to get this system working but my sea trial 2 weeks ago went good. After 2 hours of motoring at 6 knts. It was still quiet and cool inside Happy to answer more questions if you have any. Darryl - In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Darryl and Gord, > > Many thanks for your info. How did you set up the exhaust? Did you > use a muffler or put the outlet under water? > > Regards, > Ted | 1165|1163|2002-11-10 01:06:50|darryl_marlene|Re: Cockpits|-- Hi ted me again My own boat in photos Darryl`s 36 and Austin H both have no cockpit well. Our bed is in the stern ,I raised the seats and made more room in the bed area. Darryl - In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Looking at the photo the inside aft of Ocean Pearl, it doesn't appear > to have a cockpit well, which together with no internal engine gives > much more space for a stern cabin. Joshua Slocum's Spray didn't have > a cockpit, nor does Tom Colvin's Gazelle. I am considering not > fitting one on the 36' Brent design I am building. What are folks' > views on the pros and cons of cockpits? > > Regards, > Ted | 1166|1166|2002-11-10 23:45:00|jonhackett44|Plans page "6" ???|I've recieved a set of plans for the 36 footer and have noticed that there are pages labeled 1 through 7...however...there is no page 6 included and there is very little detail for the cockpit provided. Does anyone know if there is a page 6 in the plan set? Thanks, Jon| 1167|1166|2002-11-11 04:13:27|edward_stoneuk|Re: Plans page "6" ???|Jon, I have a a drawing 6. It is an undimensioned plan and elevation of the hull interior. There is no information of the cockpit on it. The only detailed cockpit info that I can see is on drawing 2. Looking at the photographs folks tend to build to their own design quite a bit. It helps to have the book as well. Regards, Ted| 1168|1163|2002-11-11 11:53:41|riptide0037|Re: Cockpits|--- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Looking at the photo the inside aft of Ocean Pearl, it doesn't appear > to have a cockpit well, which together with no internal engine gives > much more space for a stern cabin. Joshua Slocum's Spray didn't have > a cockpit, nor does Tom Colvin's Gazelle. I am considering not > fitting one on the 36' Brent design I am building. What are folks' > views on the pros and cons of cockpits? > > Regards, > Ted Ted - I recently bought a 36 twin keel with aft cabin and no cockpit well.I have only been on one overnight sail with it but had no misgivings.I plan to weld deck boxes with a small seat on both sides. It makes for a decent size aft cabin. Robert| 1169|1169|2002-11-12 18:07:30|Gary H. Lucas|Pictures of Dale Deforests Swain 36|Well, I went sailing this past Saturday with Dale Deforest on his Swain 36. My first time seeing a Swain boat up close, and my first time on a metal sail boat. I have posted pictures at Yahoo groups under Dale Deforest 36' Swain. The boat is rigged as a staysail cutter, with rollerfurling headsails. Engine is a three cylinder Isuzu diesel with keel cooling and wet exhaust driving a 2 bladed prop. My first impression while sailing was how well the the boat tracked. Dale thought nothing of letting go of the tiller and walking forward to adjust the sails. The boat stayed right on course. Dale built the boat with Brents trim tab system but he currently uses an Aries vane gear for steering. He also has an autohelm tiller pilot which he has not been able to get working properly. I am a mechanical designer so I studied his setup. I think I have identified where he was having trouble and I made a few suggestions that I hope will get it working for him. The trim tab setup looks to me like it will work very well with a small electric autopilot. Dale pitched the forward windows on the pilot house aft rather than forward as Brent does. I think I like the way that looks, it somehow lowers the pilot house to my eye. Dale says the hull and deck pulled together in less than nine days. It took him 8 YEARS to launch it! 3 years were lost due to a house fire though. When you look closely at a boat like this there is a tremendous amount of detail work after the hull is pulled together. I am truly amazed at people that have the stamina to build a boat with a skeleton framework, plate it all up, and THEN do all that detail work! I posted quite a few pictures, I hope no one minds. My mind remembers a lot more pictures than I actually took, so some things I don't have pictures of! I have been trying to model a Swain hull in Rhino 3D, but so far I have been disapointed with the results. I bought Brent's 31' plans and scanned in the lines. I then brought the scanned images into Rhino and traced them as accurately as I could. This gave me a 3D framework to start from. I can get a developable surface but I have a crease from the foward corner of the chine to the point of the bow, and another from the rear end of the chine to the top corner of the transom. I know why the crease is there, I just can't figure out how to eliminate it. My hope is to create an accurate model of a Swain hull so that the parts can be CNC plasma cut from my drawings. More importantly though I want to use the model to design the complete interior before cutting any metal. After looking at Dale's boat I believe that the interior can be greatly simplified if you can figure out the entire design accurately before building anything. That way you get to say "If I just move this bulkhead forward 1" this other part will fit properly" without having to rip it up and start over. I model machines all day long in Rhino so I know I can pull this off if I can get the hull shape right. Gary H. Lucas| 1170|1169|2002-11-13 01:40:43|Alex Christie|Re: Pictures of Dale Deforests Swain 36|Thanks for posting photos, Gary, a welcome addition to the photo section. I invite anyone who has photos of origami boats to go ahead and pop them in the photo section, and if they need help, they can email photos to me to post. The straight tracking aspect of your friend's boat is really interesting. I wonder -- is this a function of the nature of the cutter rig, or is it the hull, or both working together? Anyone out there who runs the sloop have some input here? Regarding the 3-D work, group member Doug Barnard did the 3-D modelling shown in the album "3-D", and I think he used Rhino, so it might be worth chatting to him about it. I'll bet he knows how to get that crease out. His hull model looked pretty accurate, as far as I could tell. I am interested in a 3-D modelling system called "Touch 3-D" which someone has already used to design an origami boat of aluminum in Sweden. Does anyone have exprience with this program? Alex| 1171|1137|2002-11-13 11:27:25|Richard Murray|Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust?|Hi, I am am new to the group but I am in the process of trying to restore a Zeelandia 30' sloop that was built in Holland in 1955. The hull appears to be in good condition (no apparant scalling etc) but many layers of bottom side paint should be removed. In researching my approach I contacted CCI, the Company that distributes Neutrarust. I have used Neutrarust to treat cast Iron keels with good success. This seems to be on topic for this group so I would like to pass on what I have learned. After sandblasting the hull, I thought that it might be worth while to let it continue to rust for a while (1 to 3 months) and apply Neutrarust because West Systems say that bare steel should not be left in the open for more than 2 hours before being covered with epoxy. West System has since said that they have not had the best experience applying epoxy to rust coatings such as thse provided by Petit or Neutrarust. The epoxy does not seem to bond as well to these rust conversion products. Here is the reply that I received from Neutrarust (I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has experience restoring a steel hull): From: "Bruce Young" To: "Richard Murray" Subject: Re: 30' Steel Hull Sail Boat Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:26:38 -0500 Rich, You need to use our CCI 921 ( http://www.neutrarustinc.com/neutrarust661.htm ) for rusted areas. Any application above the water line on the outside of the hull would need to be over coated with a marine paint designed for the application. The 921 would be your primer coat as well as your rust converter. For application above the water line and inside the sailboat use 921 and our Flex Cote (http://www.neutrarustinc.com/neutrarusttl.htm ) for your top, or over, coat. Application notes are on the website links above. As you have more questionsplease email or call. Thanks for your inquiry. Bruce A. Young 828-684-5395 EFax: 810-958-7141 byoung@... Regards, Rich Murray North Weymouth MA --- In origamiboats@y..., "Phil S." wrote: > Basically I am going to use Corroseal instead of sand blasting > the whole hull. What type of paint did you put over the stuff? I will > get a sample to try out though. Thanks for the input. > Phil > > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Jones" wrote: > > Good stuff > > I've used it and for me, it did what it said it would do. Just > follow the > > instructions. There are limits to what it can save though > > > > ---------- > > From: "Phil S." > > To: origamiboats@y... > > Subject: [origamiboats] Corroseal? > > Date: Fri, Nov 1, 2002, 15:46 > > > > > > Does any one have any experiance with a product called > > corroseal? I can't seem to find pre primed steel in my area, I > > really don't want to have to sand blast. I found an ad in B&H for > a > > product called Corroseal, supposedly it is a rust converting > > primer. It coverts rust to a crystalline layer of black magnetite. > Any > > one tried it? > > > > Phil > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service > > . > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1172|1137|2002-11-14 09:10:21|Phil S.|Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust?|I am hoping to use Corroseal as an alternative to sandblasting. I can not locate pre primed steel in my area. As far as coating it with any West product? That would be doubtful, I am severly allergic to Poly's and Epoxy's. So the old stand by of enamels will have to do. I will be ordering a small amount and painting some of my farm equipment with it as a test. Here is the list of recommended top coats form the coroseal literature; Top Coat Recommendations Acrylic Oil based coatings Alkyd based enamels Polyurethane Bituminous coatings Thermoplastic epoxy Chlorinated rubber Urethane-asphalt Epoxy/amines Urethane/coal tar Epoxy/coal tar Urethane-water based Epoxy/esters Vinyl Epoxy/polymides Vinyl/tar Latex Epoxy's and Polyurethanes are absolutely dangerous products and need to be applied with all of the proper safety gear. My back ground with it was in the service and the Chemical Agent Resistant Coating (CARC). Due to a respirator failure, I am down to one functional lung and can no longer work around any of those chemicals, so everyone please be careful using this stuff. From the chemical breakdown it looks like spray foam, Poly Isocyanate(sp) should be able to be applied directly to the coating on the interior. I will do some testing, I have used ALLOT of the spray foam in my house construction and it sticks to everything. Thanks Phil| 1173|1137|2002-11-14 11:51:56|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust?|for coatings related links see http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=07ac52fe576166c85c107e0c65513f 0d&threadid=287 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1174|1137|2002-11-14 12:56:47|Ditmore, Stephen|Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust?|Links to coatings for steel: www.appliedsemi.com www.ceram-kote.com/marine.htm www.por15.com www.powerspray.com www.deltacoat.com www.r-c-p.com/rust/english/english.htm www.intercoat.com/rustgrip.html www.laque.com www.nacecorrosionnetwork.com...ums/marine.html http://www2.uca.es/grup-invest/corr...enu/default.htm www.cansealant.com www.marinecorrosionclub.org.uk/index.htm www.neutrarustinc.com www.corrosion.com www.international-pc.com www.akzonobel.com/coatings/i...8&name=Coatings www.epoxyproducts.com www.corroseal.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1175|1137|2002-11-14 14:05:49|Richard Murray|Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust?|Thanks very much. This should keep me busy for quite some time. To this list we can add www.westsystem.com R --- In origamiboats@y..., "Ditmore, Stephen" wrote: > Links to coatings for steel: > > www.appliedsemi.com > www.ceram-kote.com/marine.htm > www.por15.com > www.powerspray.com > www.deltacoat.com > www.r-c-p.com/rust/english/english.htm > www.intercoat.com/rustgrip.html > www.laque.com > www.nacecorrosionnetwork.com...ums/marine.html > http://www2.uca.es/grup-invest/corr...enu/default.htm > www.cansealant.com > www.marinecorrosionclub.org.uk/index.htm > www.neutrarustinc.com > www.corrosion.com > www.international-pc.com > www.akzonobel.com/coatings/i...8&name=Coatings > www.epoxyproducts.com > www.corroseal.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1176|1137|2002-11-14 14:07:50|Richard Murray|Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust?|Thanks very much for the info. I had no idea that it is so dangerous. R -- In origamiboats@y..., "Phil S." wrote: > I am hoping to use Corroseal as an alternative to sandblasting. I > can not locate pre primed steel in my area. As far as coating it > with any West product? That would be doubtful, I am severly > allergic to Poly's and Epoxy's. So the old stand by of enamels will > have to do. I will be ordering a small amount and painting some > of my farm equipment with it as a test. > > Here is the list of recommended top coats form the coroseal > literature; > Top Coat Recommendations > Acrylic Oil based coatings > Alkyd based enamels > Polyurethane > Bituminous coatings > Thermoplastic epoxy > Chlorinated rubber > Urethane-asphalt > Epoxy/amines > Urethane/coal tar > Epoxy/coal tar > Urethane-water based > Epoxy/esters > Vinyl > Epoxy/polymides > Vinyl/tar > Latex > > Epoxy's and Polyurethanes are absolutely dangerous products > and need to be applied with all of the proper safety gear. My back > ground with it was in the service and the Chemical Agent > Resistant Coating (CARC). Due to a respirator failure, I am down > to one functional lung and can no longer work around any of > those chemicals, so everyone please be careful using this stuff. > > From the chemical breakdown it looks like spray foam, Poly > Isocyanate(sp) should be able to be applied directly to the > coating on the interior. I will do some testing, I have used ALLOT > of the spray foam in my house construction and it sticks to > everything. > > Thanks > Phil | 1177|1156|2002-11-15 18:25:02|brentswain38|Re: photo of external water muffler|Ted I used stainless sch 40 pipe and a piece of the sidewall of a tire for the flap. For the dry exhaust I used stainless sch 40 pipe wrapped in fibreglass house insulation, the wrapped in foil, then wrapped in 3 inch wide exhaust lagging smeared with silicone caulking which is good for at least 300 degrees. Ive been sailing through the tropics for the last 40 days and it hasn't even goten warm back there. As there are a lot of twists and turn in the exhaust I followed Nigel warrens advice in his book Marine Conversions,and skipped the flex pipe . The engine is very solidly mounted and the exhaust is easy to move around by hand. It's been that way for a year ot wo , so far so good. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Thanks Alex, > > A few more questions you may be able to help me with: > Is the rubber flap valve made from a bicycle inner tube hose clipped > to the exhaust pipe? It appears to be from the photo but one can't > see for sure. > Is the pipe galvanised water pipe or stainless? > Is there a flexible connector between the pipe and the engine? > Is it wrapped with insulation? > > Regards, > > Ted | 1178|1178|2002-11-15 18:30:18|brentswain38|Out Cruising.|I'm in Niue , leaving for Vavau Tonga tomorrow, where internet is very expensive , $120 per minute , so I won't be able to access the internet much until I get to Nuku Alofa after hurricane season in April. There it's $5 per minute so I'll be able to catch up before heading back to Canada . I may be able to access it in Hawaii if I stop there , so please be patient if I'm slow to respond. You can still order books and plans from my Royston BC address. Brent Swain| 1179|1166|2002-11-15 18:39:17|brentswain38|Re: Plans page "6" ???|Ted For the cockpit I take a 4by8 ft sheet of 1/8th inch plate and have a brake press bend it into a trough 11 inches deep and 26 inches wide . I used to make it 24 inches wide, but you couldn't quite fit a couple of propane bottles side by side in the back of it as they are just over 12 inches wide.I run a longitudinal stringer down the centre of it to stiffen it a bit.The cockpit seats are each made out of a 4by8 ft sheet of 1/8th inch plate and run right out to the hull. Lately I've been puting the cockpit seats in before the well. It is a lot easier that way, and you can leave the inside edges of these a bit long, then cut them after the seats are in. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@y..., "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Jon, > > I have a a drawing 6. It is an undimensioned plan and elevation of > the hull interior. There is no information of the cockpit on it. > The only detailed cockpit info that I can see is on drawing 2. > Looking at the photographs folks tend to build to their own design > quite a bit. It helps to have the book as well. > > Regards, > > Ted | 1180|1156|2002-11-16 08:39:57|Phillip Allen|external water muffler...Heating silicone caulk|Just a caution concerning the silicone caulk. Obviously it's working in Brent's application, however, be very careful to keep it from getting relly hot. I don't know if the gas comming off the hot caulk is dangerous but you won't like the smell if it does get hot. Phillip Allen in North West Arkansas brentswain38 wrote:Ted I used stainless sch 40 pipe and a piece of the sidewall of a tire for the flap. For the dry exhaust I used stainless sch 40 pipe wrapped in fibreglass house insulation, the wrapped in foil, then wrapped in 3 inch wide exhaust lagging smeared with silicone caulking which is good for at least 300 degrees. Ive been sailing through the tropics for the last 40 days and it hasn't even goten warm back there. As there are a lot of twists and turn in the exhaust I followed Nigel warrens advice in his book Marine Conversions,and skipped the flex pipe . The engine is very solidly mounted and the exhaust is easy to move around by hand. It's been that way for a year ot wo , so far so good. Brent Swain To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1181|1181|2002-11-16 23:45:39|jonhackett44|MIG wire and head location.....|A few questions for the groupÂ… I've been digging around through the posts and can't seem to locate any info on MIG wire selection. Is there a preference for wire type, due to the nature of the environment? Has anyone found a source for pre-primed A-36 larger than 8X30', in or around the greater Seattle area? What brands of "zinc rich primer" have y'all found to be acceptable? And finallyÂ…I've decided on a wide open floor plan with waist high "bulkheads" and curtains. This leaves a privacy problem with the head though. I'm considering putting the head/shower aft of the steering station/chart table location, just inside and starboard of the companionway. This will double as a wet locker and provide starboard access to the engine. I don't have a grasp of the available headroom in this area and would appreciate any opinions. Also, if I were to extend the pilot house forward a foot or so, would this add enough room for the head?.....Thoughts?| 1182|1182|2002-11-17 01:36:29|Alex & Kim Christie|High heat silicone|I believe there are high heat silicones available, and it would be important to ensure that you get the right kind. The type used by Brent might be what is called RTV gasket silicone, available at auto parts stores or Canadian Tire. I found some on the exhaust pipe of our wood pellet stove when I pulled off the flue and noted that it looks as new, with no evidence of burn marks or browning. There is also a silica-based material (called "waterglass"?), used for binding together the lagging on exhaust pipes. Maybe this is what he is refering to? I think it dries solid, however, so perhaps the flexible silcone caulking is what he meant. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillip Allen To: Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] external water muffler...Heating silicone caulk > > Just a caution concerning the silicone caulk. Obviously it's working in Brent's application, however, be very careful to keep it from getting relly hot. I don't know if the gas comming off the hot caulk is dangerous but you won't like the smell if it does get hot. > Phillip Allen in North West Arkansas | 1183|1183|2002-11-17 12:17:34|prairiemaidca|Prop size???|Hi All. Once again I turn to the group for knowledge. I'm installing my stern tube and laying out the opening for the prop. I can't seem to find any info on what the average prop size is for the 36footer fin keel. I'm planning on using one of the 30 to 40 hp. isuzu diesels. In order to allow the 12% tip clearance I'll need to have an Idea of what prop diameter is normal for this type of setup. Martin Prairie Maid..| 1184|1184|2002-11-17 13:07:36|Larry Doyle|Twin Keels|Found an interesting article on twin keels. http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html| 1185|1183|2002-11-17 13:20:54|silascrosby|Re: Prop size???|I have a 50 h.p. Isuzu in a 36'twin keel and have a 17x14 3 blade. I would go another inch diameter except for the limitation of the aperture.| 1186|1182|2002-11-18 18:56:37|richytill|Re: High heat silicone|High teprature silicone is available through wood stove stores. It is used to glue the ceramic rope onto doors etc. Devoe cathecote 302 is an excellent stabilised inorganic zinc primer--apparently one of the few that can be used below the waterline. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > I believe there are high heat silicones available, and it would be important > to ensure that you get the right kind. The type used by Brent might be what > is called RTV gasket silicone, available at auto parts stores or Canadian > Tire. I found some on the exhaust pipe of our wood pellet stove when I > pulled off the flue and noted that it looks as new, with no evidence of burn > marks or browning. > > There is also a silica-based material (called "waterglass"?), used for > binding together the lagging on exhaust pipes. Maybe this is what he is > refering to? I think it dries solid, however, so perhaps the flexible > silcone caulking is what he meant. > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Phillip Allen > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:39 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] external water muffler...Heating silicone caulk > > > > > > Just a caution concerning the silicone caulk. Obviously it's working in > Brent's application, however, be very careful to keep it from getting relly > hot. I don't know if the gas comming off the hot caulk is dangerous but you > won't like the smell if it does get hot. > > Phillip Allen in North West Arkansas | 1187|1183|2002-11-18 19:00:47|richytill|Re: Prop size???|You will need to decide if you are using a reduction gear; max rpm; and hp, in order to determine prop size. Greater ratio: bigger prop. Brent at Klassen diesel in Vancouver can probably advise you. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All. Once again I turn to the group for knowledge. I'm > installing my stern tube and laying out the opening for the prop. I > can't seem to find any info on what the average prop size is for the > 36footer fin keel. I'm planning on using one of the 30 to 40 hp. > isuzu diesels. In order to allow the 12% tip clearance I'll need to > have an Idea of what prop diameter is normal for this type of setup. > Martin Prairie Maid.. | 1188|1183|2002-11-18 23:32:09|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Prop size???|If you can get Dave Gerr's "Propellor Handbook" from the library, I can't remember specifically, but I think it had charts that gave you prop size and pitch for a given horsepower and reduction gear. Alex| 1189|1163|2002-11-20 02:21:39|mark_schlichting11|Re: Cockpits|Having owned a Colvin Saugeen Witch (smaller version of a Gazelle at 35') without a cockpit well, I much prefer the cockpit on our Brent 36'. It feels alot more secure and out of the weather when healed over in a sea. We haven't been offshore yet, but I can imagine it being even more important there. The extra room for an aft cabin looks good but Ocean Pearl (actually I believe the boat's name is Pearl Song, isn't it Alex?) doesn't have an inboard and on Daryl's boat the engine is further forward, also making room for the aft cabin. We also gain some of that space back by having an aluminium box for a propane locker at the aft end of the cockpit, under the bench seat. It wouldn't fit without the depth of the cockpit. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC| 1190|1163|2002-11-20 04:34:20|Alex Christie|Re: Cockpits/interesting link|I've stood on the aft deck of a non-cockpit unfinished hull, and did find it very exposed. It would be interesting to try it on the water to see what it is like. I can't help but think that one would always feel like one is being tilted off into the drink, unless somethink were built up high enough on the aft deck to enclose the pilot. Would you then feel quite tossed about, being higher and further away from the centre of the roll axis of the boat? Some thoughts to ponder, anyhow. I think Mark is right about Pearl Song's name! This helped me, as I have been trying to find a link to where I got those photos (lost it), and did a search on the name. I didn't find the page of Pearl Song, but I did find a link to something about a 31 foot steel yacht called "Eclectus", which I am sure is a Brent Boat. http://homepages.tesco.net/~john.olson/sail.html This page came up because there is a photo of the aforementioned boat careened on a drying tide in the Baja next to Pearl Song. The owner, John Olson, built Eclectus in BC in 1985, and eventually sailed it to Cornwall, UK, where he lives now. He lived on the boat until 1996. 11 years on a 31 foot boat. John appears to be designing other boats to the same kind of system. Anyone out there with more info about this designer? Alex| 1191|1191|2002-11-20 12:14:45|Gary H. Lucas|Thoughts on Origami construction|Since going sailing on Dale Deforests boat I have been thinking some more about Origami construction. I am still trying to understand how the metal bends into the hull shape. I could use some help here from somone with access to a Brent boat that is on the hard. Specifically I want to know what you see if you place a straight edge on the hull with one end at the corner of the chine, and then sweep the other end of the straight edge along the forward hull to the bow, then down along the center of the hull towards the keel. If this surface is a true conic section you should see that the straight edge lies flat on the hull the whole time. I'd like to do the same at the stern, and if this is also a true conic section, then the straight edge will again lie flat the whole time as it is swept across the surface. My suspicion is that Brent's boats in fact have some compound curvature and that the straight edge won't in fact lie flat in some areas. I think the compound curvature is created when the bow is forced together with come-alongs and when the stern is forced against the transom. It probably isn't a lot, but it would explain why I am having a hard time generating a 3D model that will unroll to a flat sheet. The program I am using (Rhino) will model the compound curvature accurately, if I had accurate measurements. You could not however easily develop an accurate cutting pattern from the surface with somehow compensating for the distortion caused by the compound curvature. I have succeed in getting the crease out of the bow area of the hull that I had reported earlier. Once I had a better understanding of the shape I was able to adjust the input curves slightly and get a smooth fair surface. So far though I have not worked out the creases at the stern. If I can work this out with NO need for compound curvature then my 3d model will accurately represent a real boat. I believe it also means the boat would require less force to pull together, because no compound curve will be required to get the edges together. This probaably isn't real important in the real world though. An interesting revelation about Brent's method. Wih all the other methods of plating a hull, you work really hard to get a fair hull, trying to force flat plates to take on a compound curvature, using lots of seams, and trying not to warp the hull while welding it up. The end result can be very good, or very bad, depnding on whether you did everything right. With Brent's method, the boat starts out as unfair as it can get. The metal in resisting bending causes the surface to become very fair, and the welding on the inside for the angle stiffiners and deck edges, pulling in the edges at bow and stern etc. increases the compound curvature, making the hull FAIRER yet! My interest in 3D modeling has increased after seeing Dale's boat. It became clear to me that the interior of a boat is very difficult to do. I think this is because it is very difficult to forsee problem areas until you have already built major parts. Then you look at it and say, "Darn! If this part was 1/2" longer this other part would fit, bit it is way to much work to change it now" I believe Dale lined his boat hull with plywood, then worked out the details for all the interior stuff. I'd like to design all the interioer stuff as modules that could be built outside, and then installed, and KNOW they would fit. Beth Leonard and her partner Evans built all the interior of their Van De Stadt Samoa 47 'Hawke' did it that way. Probably becase they were able to get accurate dimensional drawings for the whole boat. An accurate 3D model would probably save tons of time and money in outfitting the interior of a boat. It also would allow some of that work to get done in parallel with hull and deck building. Anyway, just my current thinking on the subject. Gary H. Lucas| 1192|1163|2002-11-20 12:18:01|M. Fletcher|Re: Cockpits|> Having owned a Colvin Saugeen Witch (smaller version of a Gazelle at > 35') without a cockpit well, I much prefer the cockpit on our Brent > 36'. It feels alot more secure and out of the weather when healed > over in a sea. Just my .02..... Colvin designed his Witch/Gazelle for a modified junk rig and proponents say the rig causes far less heel than a Bermuden-type. Possibly the "security" of a cockpit is not such an issue on junk rigged vessels. Just for curiousities sake, Mark, how was your Witch rigged? Mary Victoria| 1193|1191|2002-11-20 17:09:33|Alex Christie|Re: Thoughts on Origami construction|I commend Gary for working on the science of this process! When I can get to a hull (there is one in town I could check), I'll take a stick along and see how it sweeps. I suspect that there must be some compound curves in the bow, definitely. In terms of pulling the hull together, I think the "spring" in the steel may be one of the elements which keeps the hull fair and stiff (though of course once the cabin and decks are on it boxes everything in very tightly). The hull halves are pulled together starting from the bow area first, and this must be because it would be too awkward to start from the transom. Tack welding along the centreline as you go, the long halves can be used as giant levers to deal with the resistance of the steel in the bow to being "tortured". But it all does go together without much strain for the builder, so I wouldn't try to design the stress out of the hull skins. The "stress skin" phenomenon is used in many engineering applications to creat incredible strength and rigidity. The trick is getting the right amount of stress built in without making it impossible or dangerous to pull together. John Olson's website has some wire frame drawings of different hulls he has conceptualized, and these show what appears to be conic projection. As such, they are "idealized", and I wonder if this is really the way it would or should go together. An interesting question to ponder. Alex| 1194|1194|2002-11-20 18:30:47|John Olson|Who's this guy anyway?|Alex What would you like to know? Cheers John john.olson@... > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:34:18 -0000 > From: "Alex Christie" > Subject: Re: Cockpits/interesting link > > I've stood on the aft deck of a non-cockpit unfinished hull, and did > find it very exposed. It would be interesting to try it on the water > to see what it is like. I can't help but think that one would always > feel like one is being tilted off into the drink, unless somethink > were built up high enough on the aft deck to enclose the pilot. Would > you then feel quite tossed about, being higher and further away from > the centre of the roll axis of the boat? Some thoughts to ponder, > anyhow. > > I think Mark is right about Pearl Song's name! This helped me, as I > have been trying to find a link to where I got those photos (lost > it), and did a search on the name. I didn't find the page of Pearl > Song, but I did find a link to something about a 31 foot steel yacht > called "Eclectus", which I am sure is a Brent Boat. > > http://homepages.tesco.net/~john.olson/sail.html > > This page came up because there is a photo of the aforementioned boat > careened on a drying tide in the Baja next to Pearl Song. The owner, > John Olson, built Eclectus in BC in 1985, and eventually sailed it to > Cornwall, UK, where he lives now. He lived on the boat until 1996. > 11 years on a 31 foot boat. John appears to be designing other boats > to the same kind of system. > Anyone out there with more info about this designer? > > Alex > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/02| 1195|1194|2002-11-20 18:59:28|Alex Christie|Vessel Eclectus|John, I was wondering if your 31 footer mentioned in your web page was a Brent Swain hull, and if you have done further designs using a similar system. If you have any anecdotes about how the boat performed at sea, I'm sure the group would be quite interested. Regards, Alex --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Olson" wrote: > Alex > > What would you like to know? > > Cheers > > John > john.olson@b... > > > > | 1196|1163|2002-11-20 19:02:17|Alex Christie|Flush cockpits|Having owned a junk-rigger (a wee craft -- 18 ft Super Pelican), I can say that they definitely heel less than bermudan rigged craft, but I found that in situations where side to side roll was induced, the hull would heel over regardless of rig (especially if travelling under power sideways to an oncoming swell, and there was no wind to steady the boat). During those moments where the boat was pumping side to side, I was happy to be ensconced in the recessed cockpit, and would have felt in danger of sliding off if I was perched on top of a deck with no cockpit. On the other hand, I would have loved to have had a larger space underneath the cockpit for stores or sleeping, and would have been fine with a smaller footwell as a comprimise between a cockpit or not having one, thereby having the best of both worlds. The album "Austin Hull" features a 36 with a flush deck if you want to see what it looks like. When looking inside this boat, it seemed to me that it made for a somewhat cramped aft cabin, in part due to the sweep of the hull upward toward the stern. But for laying down in it would be fine, if that was all you were after. Submariners put up with much lower headspace than that above their heads! I'm not sure how that cabin relates to the positioning of the engine, as it was not installed yet. Alex > Just my .02..... Colvin designed his Witch/Gazelle for a modified junk rig > and proponents say the rig causes far less heel than a Bermuden- | 1197|1197|2002-11-20 20:31:03|Alex & Kim Christie|fitting out the interior - 3-D modelling or real templates?|Attachments :Regarding the fitting out of interiors: The fitting out of a boat like the Van de Stadt 47 could be done off the hull in modules, but I'd be quite leery of doing this based solely on 3-D modelling based on the plans, unless the boat were built exactly to plans. Any variation, which a one-off boat is bound to have, would result in things like big gaps where the hull meets a bulkhead, or furniture skewed in an unpleasant way. Every boat tends to have it's own shape, even production models in any given material. It would work if you did the 3-D modelling using measurements from the actual boat, and it could be handy for modelling what you'd like to do inside the boat -- something Doug Barnard did for the 40 footer (he did a fly-thru of this which I can't open with my outdated computer, but it would be fascinating to see). However, there are manual methods not dependent on computers which will be completely accurate and and would still allow you to build parts off the hull if you chose. Personally, I'll build furniture in place, making it demountable for future modifications if need be, so the only thing I'll be doing off the boat is laminating counter tops. My thoughts about fitting out an interior are this: I used to think fitting out a boat would be very difficult with all those crazy angles and curved sides of hull and whatnot, but my time at boatbuilding school gave me some basic tools that allows me to fit bulkheads to any shape with a high degree of accuracy, and with a minimum of thought (I like low-brain-power stuff). It can be explained with a simple diagram, which I have attached here (I have also put the image in the loose photos at the end of the photo album for those who don't want to open attachments off-web). The method is called "tick stick", and is quite simple, despite my long-winded explanation. Some of you may just look at the figure I have attached here and not bother reading what I write -- I don't mind! There area, of course, many other ways of templating, as well as varations within the use the tick stick, two which I have shown in the diagram. Another method I know of uses a compass to scribe lines on the templating panel, others using bits of doorskin stapled together (this can be floppy, but works if you are careful). If you have some techniques, please do share. Looking at the attached diagram, you can see that I have chosen to create a bulk-head for one side of the boat. This could be a bulkhead between the head and the main cabin. A piece of plywood that fits in the space loosely is held in place with sticks screwed to the ply which go to the floor, to the side, and to the ceiling. It doesn't have to be as big as the bulkhead, it just needs enough room to have sticks pinned to it all around. The support sticks need to be firmly fixed to the wood furring strips so the plywood doesn't move while you are tick-sticking. Then, take small sticks with pointed ends (just cut off at an angle) that are long enough to reach the hull, floor and cabin sides with the tail end having enough length to be screwed to the plywood. Or, if going with the non-screwed type of tick stick, make one tick-stick with a uniform shape and nice point which can reach all parts of the hull when held in different positions on the plywood. This is the stick shown at the bottom left hand side of each image, coloured Blue. I have shown what it looks like after you scribe a sharp line all the way around the stick, then remove the stick. Using the screwed-on tick-stick method, just carry one applying tick sticks that point at all places where there is a change in angle or a curve. The more the merrier, but not that many are needed on a curve it has a constant radius. Next, you remove your pattern (the second figure) and place it onto the piece of plywood you intend to make into the bulkhead. Position the pattern so that all tick-stick points point to wood, and waste is minimized (you can use the off-cut of plywood somewhere else). Fix the pattern down onto the plywood with nails or screws so that it can't move. Then put a nail in the ply where each arrow points. You can remove the pattern now. For straight sections, use a long stiff straight edge, and pencil in the lines. For carved areas, spring a flexible batten (wood, plastic or any consistent flexible material that is stiff enough to take a nice fair curve) over top of the nails (this would be along the roof top portion of your pattern), and scribe your sharp pencil line there. I didn't show the left hand side of the pattern, but you can see that you'd want to mark where your bulkhead edge is on the inside of the boat too. With the penciled tick-stick, you re-position your stick in each space you have scribed in all the positions, and again put a nail where ever the points are. I'd be really careful to align the stick in as exact a spot as you can to the original when you scribed it. Making a good sharp scribe line is key here. Use this technique if you have to escape the hull to make the cut on the bulkhead material, otherwise I'd stick to using the fixed method. Then all you need to do is carefully cut to the line, and you'll have a bulkhead which should fit very closely to where you intended it to go. In practice, it doesn't hurt to have a bit of a gap on the bulkhead so you can move it into place easily, and there may be a trim piece covering the gap up in any case, or it disappears when it meets up with the back of the end of the settee furniture. The more hidden it is, the more slack you can be with the fitting! Long winded explanation complete, I'm sorry I'm not a technical writer, but I try my best! Regards, Alex| 1198|1191|2002-11-20 21:56:44|richytill|Re: Thoughts on Origami construction|Gary, i put a straight edge accross the hull of the 36' finkeel I'm building: there are compound curves. Some of this can be attributed to shrinkage where the outside of the plate is burned to shape; welding will contract this zone some more and the longditudanal stiffners lend to the effect. In other words Brent has used the effects of the welding and fabricating process to work for the builder and the boat. Most designers make a shippy shape and leave you to battle with the metal. For the novice this often proves to be a laborious saga of trial and error. Perhaps the term "advanced amatuer construction" should be read as "time consuming and problematic." Note: my son Luke was helping put in bulkheads the other day and during the process came up with a niffty concept: folding patterns. Instead of assembling splines, numbering them and dissassembling and re assembling them--we now make a folding pattern that pops out the hatch and onto the plywood. We un-fold the pattern replace a couple of wing nuts and mark out the next bulkhead. The splines can be re- used. The holes in the bulkhead tabs become reference points in this approach. We cut all the bulkheads under the boat (out of the rain) to a size that fits through the companionway hatch. Turns out to be fun. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Since going sailing on Dale Deforests boat I have been thinking some more > about Origami construction. I am still trying to understand how the metal > bends into the hull shape. I could use some help here from somone with > access to a Brent boat that is on the hard. Specifically I want to know > what you see if you place a straight edge on the hull with one end at the > corner of the chine, and then sweep the other end of the straight edge along > the forward hull to the bow, then down along the center of the hull towards > the keel. If this surface is a true conic section you should see that the > straight edge lies flat on the hull the whole time. I'd like to do the same > at the stern, and if this is also a true conic section, then the straight > edge will again lie flat the whole time as it is swept across the surface. > > My suspicion is that Brent's boats in fact have some compound curvature and > that the straight edge won't in fact lie flat in some areas. I think the > compound curvature is created when the bow is forced together with > come-alongs and when the stern is forced against the transom. It probably > isn't a lot, but it would explain why I am having a hard time generating a > 3D model that will unroll to a flat sheet. The program I am using (Rhino) > will model the compound curvature accurately, if I had accurate > measurements. You could not however easily develop an accurate cutting > pattern from the surface with somehow compensating for the distortion caused > by the compound curvature. > > I have succeed in getting the crease out of the bow area of the hull that I > had reported earlier. Once I had a better understanding of the shape I was > able to adjust the input curves slightly and get a smooth fair surface. So > far though I have not worked out the creases at the stern. If I can work > this out with NO need for compound curvature then my 3d model will > accurately represent a real boat. I believe it also means the boat would > require less force to pull together, because no compound curve will be > required to get the edges together. This probaably isn't real important in > the real world though. > > An interesting revelation about Brent's method. Wih all the other methods > of plating a hull, you work really hard to get a fair hull, trying to force > flat plates to take on a compound curvature, using lots of seams, and trying > not to warp the hull while welding it up. The end result can be very good, > or very bad, depnding on whether you did everything right. With Brent's > method, the boat starts out as unfair as it can get. The metal in resisting > bending causes the surface to become very fair, and the welding on the > inside for the angle stiffiners and deck edges, pulling in the edges at bow > and stern etc. increases the compound curvature, making the hull FAIRER yet! > > My interest in 3D modeling has increased after seeing Dale's boat. It > became clear to me that the interior of a boat is very difficult to do. I > think this is because it is very difficult to forsee problem areas until you > have already built major parts. Then you look at it and say, "Darn! If > this part was 1/2" longer this other part would fit, bit it is way to much > work to change it now" I believe Dale lined his boat hull with plywood, > then worked out the details for all the interior stuff. I'd like to design > all the interioer stuff as modules that could be built outside, and then > installed, and KNOW they would fit. Beth Leonard and her partner Evans > built all the interior of their Van De Stadt Samoa 47 'Hawke' did it that > way. Probably becase they were able to get accurate dimensional drawings > for the whole boat. An accurate 3D model would probably save tons of time > and money in outfitting the interior of a boat. It also would allow some of > that work to get done in parallel with hull and deck building. > > Anyway, just my current thinking on the subject. > > Gary H. Lucas | 1199|1197|2002-11-20 22:44:52|Gary H. Lucas|Re: fitting out the interior - 3-D modelling or real templates?|Alex, I think the problem is as bad as you say, and also very much solvable. A big part of the solution I believe is inherent in the Origami concept. You have just two main plates and two perimeters. If you pull them together, to accurate predetermined locations against accurately cut deck plates the real variation from hull to hull should actually be very little. This is due to the fact that you simply can't stretch a 3/16" thick plate even a fraction of one percent with come-along. The accuracy I am talking about is say +-1/8" along cutting lines. This should produce a hull that is accurate enough that you can make all internal furniture bulkheads say 1/2" oversize and then just trim to final shape after construction and during final fitting, using the technique you describe. My theory should be easy to check. I figure I can produce a CNC data file for a hull and deck laser cut from a single small sheet of steel which would be cheap. I'd also cut some internal ribbing and bulkheads. If the hull and deck are welded together and the bulkheads and ribs then fit as I expect then it would be reasonable to expect I could duplicate that in a full size boat. No one builds kitchen cabinets in the kitchen anymore, even for remodels. All the cabinets are in modules and they are accurately leveled, shimmed and then small trim strips achieve the close fit to untrue surfaces on all sides. Even amateur boat building should be no different. By the way, my dad was an electrical contractor and I grew up in the business. Our trucks were custom Shops-on-wheels. Dad carefully measured the truck bodies, produced accurate drawings and figured out where every single item of inventory and tools went, and then we built modular cabinetry which we installed in the truck. Curved truck sides and roofs, wheel wells, doors and windows make a van body nearly as bad as a boat hull. Some of our larger trucks had small kitchens for lunchtime, and as many as 48 drawers. No two drawers were exactly alike. Every drawer was custom fitted to the material that went in each drawer. I want to consider every item that gets stored in the boat, as part of the process of laying out the interior. Determine what the storage requirements are for each item, then take that into account when designing the cabinetry. Instead of finishing the interior and standing in there and saying "now where can I put this?" I design custom machines for a living. The two I am currently building have over 800 pieces each, about 300 custom made parts and 500 purchased parts of all kinds. I have complete bills of materials, subassembly lists, and 3D drawings of the entire machine before I make even the first machined part. I don't see that boat building needs to be too different a process. Imagine if you got a set of boat plans, 3D views of the hull and all the interior assemblies and tree structured bill of materials listing EVERY part needed to build this version. Wouldn't that make gathering all the materials at the lowest cost a whole lot easier? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex & Kim Christie" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] fitting out the interior - 3-D modelling or real templates? > Regarding the fitting out of interiors: > > The fitting out of a boat like the Van de Stadt 47 could be done off the > hull in modules, but I'd be quite leery of doing this based solely on 3-D > modelling based on the plans, unless the boat were built exactly to plans. > Any variation, which a one-off boat is bound to have, would result in things > like big gaps where the hull meets a bulkhead, or furniture skewed in an > unpleasant way. Every boat tends to have it's own shape, even production | 1200|1163|2002-11-21 09:35:00|Phillip Allen|Re: Cockpits|I've never owned a sail boat (yet) so am only guessing here.  I have, however, been in construction for many years (bricklayer), worked from many types of scaffolding from homade to today's state-of-the-art.  That said, and concerning flush cockpits...my own experience was cruising for three months on a Morgan OI in tropical water.  We experienced one knock down with bare sticks in a micro-burst (75 mph wind), were pooped once (fourteen foot seas) and in the latter case, nearly lost a rather stupid and slow witted man overboard.  The two of us who grabbed him as he was washing overboard under the safety lines were much safer ourselves because of being in a cockpit with a lot of personal ballast below the edge of the cockpit. The idea of being down in a cockpit seems safer than standing on deck and the lounging feature of our cockpit was attractive and useful.  So, being a "leaner"...walls, shovels,  fence rails, etc, I wonder if a cockpit of solid rails with a bench for anyone at the helm or lounging there would be a good idea.  It would need to be as strong as scaffolding so people could clip-on (never heard of safety harness till after my little cruise...owner's fault I suppose, though we did just turn ourselves over to his...uh...protection/not part of this topic anyway).  This sort of construction would allow me to stand and lean which I like to do and certinly allow more space below.  Just my thoughts...PhillipDo you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now| 1201|1163|2002-11-21 12:51:40|M. Fletcher|Re: Cockpits| Are you meaning something like a "playpen" welded to a flush deck? No pit, just a secure enclosure for anyone unfortunate enough to pull a watch on a bad night? Mary ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillip Allen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Cockpits >I wonder if a cockpit of solid rails with a bench for anyone at the helm or lounging there would be a good idea.  | 1202|1163|2002-11-21 14:23:49|Phillip Allen|Re: Cockpits|Yes, like a crib, maybe as much as four feet to the top.  Four corners and rails on three sides.  Benches made of very heavy steel mesh meant to hold cushions.  Removable back rest cushions.  If in rough weather, one would likely have a pfd on and unless it�s an inflatable, would furnish any back cushioning needed...therefore "removable" back cushions to minimize windage or just loose stuff out in the wind.  Depending on the size of boat and therefore width of cockpit area, one could even create a set of chocks to lean a hard dinghy against and secure the helmsman against spray, etc.  It would have to be configured to accommodate the type of steering the boat has�tiller or wheel.       Phillip         Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now| 1203|1163|2002-11-24 14:21:50|edward_stoneuk|Re: Cockpits|Thanks to everyone for the ideas and experiences of different kinds of cockpits. One thing most cockpits have in common is that they are uncomfortable. An idea that is not that uncommon in new boats is to have a gap in the transom at the back of the cockpit so that one can walk through to a swimming platform or whatever. Another idea is to have the cockpit big enough for an inflatable dinghy to sit in. The tubes of the inflatable could then be used as comfortable cockpit seats, apart from the rowlocks that is. This leads on to another problem in small boats, where to store the dinghy without blocking the lookout from the helm or pilot house. Regards, Ted| 1204|1194|2002-11-24 16:58:54|John Olson|Re: Vessel Eclectus|Alex and all Yes, Eclectus is a twin-keeled Swain 31 (Eclectus: Latin for 'the best of many choices' Also the name of a parrot from SE Asia. We had 2 parrots on board the boat for 10 years). She was built at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond (south of Vancouver). Brent came by and we started in March '83 Evan Shaler showed up as well to see how it was done. She was launched in Nov '85. Did a trip to California in '86, but had some problems (not associated with the boat) and put it on a truck and brought it back to Canada. Spent '87 sailing up to the top of the Georgia Strait before wintering in Victoria (I was working on the Pacific Swift). Left again in '88 for California. This time managed to get to Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama, thru the canal, Caymans, Florida, South Carolina (dodging Hurricane Bob), Massachusetts , Nova Scotia, Bermuda (November passage!, either that or be stuck in the ice in Halifax Harbour), then to St Martin (working for The Moorings, repairing plastic charter boats), BVI's, Bermuda (again) then a 25 day passage (2 days of 152 miles, 124 mile/day average, 8 days over 140 miles, only had to steer the last 2 hours into Bantry Bay!) to the SW of Ireland. From there to Falmouth in Cornwall, in Sept '91. Been here ever since. I still have the boat, but she needs a little work before she's fit to do more ocean work. The boat had no engine until '93, it now has a Saab single cylinder diesel (8hp low revving, swinging a HUGE variable pitch prop. 6kts in the flat calm and 4.5 knots in just about anything). We had an 10hp Honda outboard on the back, but it was useless for anything but flat calm conditions, and it was never certain if it was going to start at all. To it's credit, it did live a very rough life, and still ran most of the time. No electronic navigation for the first 12000 miles (the boat has about 25000 miles on it), just sextant and compass. As you saw from that old web page, I have designed a few folded boats. The majority are dinghies. They were produced commercially here for a couple of years, about 5 years ago. I am working right now to redo the drawings for the 11'6" boat, and they'll be offered for sale early in the new year. A nice boat, it's mostly aimed at people who want to try building a folded boat before tackling a full size one. I built the prototype in plywood in '93 , but the commercially built ones were ali. The boats are all designed using a combination of CAD and models. I will let the list know (with your permission) when they are ready. If the response is any good, I'll redraw the 9' stemhead dinghy and the 8' pram as well. The only large boat I've designed is a 38' 12 ton version of a Falmouth Pilot Cutter (similar to the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters, but believed locally to be a far more seaworthy vessel). I'm not keen on the size of the boat, but it's what the owner wanted. It is locked in a shed near here while the owner is off earning money for it's completion. Hull, deck, keel, cockpit and tanks are done, most detail steelwork is completed, but the owner is insistent on a yachty interior, so I don't expect it will hit the water any time soon. A smaller version of the boat would be possible, and would look similar to Lin and Larry Pardey's Talisin (without the cartoonish exaggeration) I've got some pictures around of various folded boats; I will see if I can find them and scan them for the files section. Don't hold you're breath tho', I haven't seen them for a while. I check my email daily (and even reply to it occasionally!) and am willing to answer any questions anyone might have. Cheers John john.olson@... ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:59:25 -0000 > From: "Alex Christie" > Subject: Vessel Eclectus > > John, I was wondering if your 31 footer mentioned in your web page > was a Brent Swain hull, and if you have done further designs using a > similar system. > > If you have any anecdotes about how the boat performed at sea, I'm > sure the group would be quite interested. > > Regards, > > Alex > > --- In origamiboats@y..., "John Olson" wrote: > > Alex > > > > What would you like to know? > > > > Cheers > > > > John > > john.olson@b... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 13/11/02 | 1205|1163|2002-11-25 02:12:25|mark_schlichting11|Re: Cockpits|Mary, My Colvin, "Moonchild", was ketch rigged (marconi) and healed a fair bit when beating, but that may have been due to the sails being bagged. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC| 1206|1206|2002-11-26 11:38:19|ggalpaugh|Looking for a boat|Hi group, My wife and I met Brent and the Ward's (Mishar) at Fanning and other south pacific islands and have been converted to the steel boat concept. We've recently sold our BCC and are now in the market for a steel cruising boat in the 40 foot size range. So if anyone knows of anything available (low budget, of course) we'd appreciate the tip. We're presently living in Victoria. Thanks. Gary and Kay| 1207|1207|2002-11-27 13:47:00|vinylxpress|Get custom lettering & decals for your boat,truck or car|http://vinylxpress.net| 1208|1206|2002-11-27 18:48:22|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Looking for a boat|Are you looking for a completely finished 40 footer, or a bare hull? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: ggalpaugh To: Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 8:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for a boat > Hi group, > My wife and I met Brent and the Ward's (Mishar) at Fanning and other > south pacific islands and have been converted to the steel boat > concept. We've recently sold our BCC and are now in the market for a > steel cruising boat in the 40 foot size range. So if anyone knows of > anything available (low budget, of course) we'd appreciate the tip. > We're presently living in Victoria. > > Thanks. > Gary and Kay > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1209|1209|2002-12-04 13:38:23|Alex Christie|update: Origami steel yacht construction course|Dear group, I just wanted to let everyone know that the boatbuilding course is going to go ahead not this spring/summer, but rather the next one. In order to bring the best experience to all who enroll, it became apparent that it is going to take more time to develop the course content and infrastructure. In other words, "we sell no wine before its time". The great news is that Brent is keen on the idea and will be onboard as instructor. I'll keep everyone on the list posted as to developments -- and if you wish to be added to the list, please let me know so I can keep you updated. We have 12 people signed up so far -- enough for two courses -- which means a third course may be added. I will have a website up in the new year, and there will also be information there regarding development of the boatbuilding course and boatschool contruction site, as soon as there's news to print. Alex| 1210|1206|2002-12-04 16:45:36|ggalpaugh|Re: Looking for a boat|Preferably one ready to sail. We're heading back to NZ soon. Gary --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > Are you looking for a completely finished 40 footer, or a bare hull? > > Alex > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ggalpaugh > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 8:38 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Looking for a boat > > > > Hi group, > > My wife and I met Brent and the Ward's (Mishar) at Fanning and other > > south pacific islands and have been converted to the steel boat > > concept. We've recently sold our BCC and are now in the market for a > > steel cruising boat in the 40 foot size range. So if anyone knows of > > anything available (low budget, of course) we'd appreciate the tip. > > We're presently living in Victoria. > > > > Thanks. > > Gary and Kay > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@y... > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@y... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > | 1211|1211|2002-12-08 10:26:10|janeikeland |To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Hello there. Im doing some research of building a steel boat (hull). Ive seen a company (Boatbuilding ws) in Canada that build steel hulls without frames. Designed by Brent Swain (?) I also notice a company in US who delivers steel hull as kits with frames. Somebody here with experiences of Swain boats (motorsailer approx 36ft) in REALLY bad weather ? What year did the author write his book about metalboats and are informations updated ? (suppose technic and materials change over as year past). I cant find the book at Amazon. Do I need the book doing interiour ? Does it fit this purpose ? How should I design parts of hull when I have no drawings to look at ? I tried to search for Swain to pick up his background as a designer but havent found any. thank You regards Jan Eikeland| 1212|1211|2002-12-08 15:06:30|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Hi Jan, The Confidence Custom Boatbuilding does indeed feature Brent Swain hulls, some with modifications beyond Brent's original design. I am not aware of which hull kit company in the US you are referring to. Do you mean they deliver steel hull kits for regular steel boats, or do you mean they are making kits for Swain type hulls? Do you have a website for this company? Brent adds information to his book from time to time. I am not sure when he first published it. My book says 1994. You won't find the book at Amazon, as it he publishes and distributes it himself. Regarding doing the interior, there are some excellent guidelines in the book which give you the basics. Most people typically elect to work out their own interiors based on their own needs and wishes, as you would a house. Additionally there are many books available on interiors available at local libraries and online (at Amazon, for instance). Here are just a few I found by searching on Amazon, for instance: From A Bare Hull : How To Build A Sailboat by Ferenc Mate The Finely Fitted Yacht by Ferenc Mate (recommended) Boat Joinery and Cabinet Making Simplified by Fred P. Bingham (Paperback) (Highly recommended) Build Your Own Boat: Completing a Bare Hull by Ian Nicolson (Paperback) Boatowner's Mechanical & Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems by Nigel Calder (Hardcover) Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding by George Buheler, George Buehler (Paperback) Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook: A Compendium for Coastal and Offshore Sailors by Nigel Calder (Hardcover Additionally, there is all the fun to be had in visiting owners of similar boats to your own and seeing how they solved the interior design puzzle. There are quite a few owners on this list who have been very accommodating this way. I've always found the experience both socially pleasurable and technically valuable. There is nothing like seeing an actual boat already put together, or partly put together (I've found that really helpful, because you can then see the underlying structure). As for Brent's background, you'll find more information at sea or down at the docks than online, with the exception of this group. Both himself and the people who have built his boats more typically spend their time offshore, rather than online, which I think explains the lack of net presence. I first learned about his boats simply by being aboard my liveaboard boat and seeing his boats on the water. Eventually my curiosity about certain unique aspects of these rugged craft brought me to engage their owners in conversation. The rest is history. I have some interesting thoughts about yacht designers and their relation to the internet. Perhaps just this once I'll abandon my usual reserve on the subject to make my opinions known (without mentioning names): Some designers have made a lot of money by heavily promoting themselves on the internet, and appear to have a very high profile, yet they have very few, if any, boats to show for it. In other words, "a lot of smoke but no fire". Hence, their online presence does not equal actual boats built and in use. Their websites are very flashy, and the vessel illustrations look like real dreamboats, but ultimately their work is almost entirely conceptual/theoretical, with no working examples to see and experience. One designer of framed steel boats in particular whom I contacted through his website showed no photos of completed boats on his site. When I politely asked via e-mail if he could send me some photos, he replied that he didn't have any. When I asked if refer me to any of his existing boats at dock, he stopped writing back completely. I wasn't trying to put him on the spot, I just wanted to see one of his boats, which is a completely reasonable request of any bonafide yacht designer. I later heard that he has only one boat to his plans, which is his personal boat, and the rest of his designs have never been built, though plans continue to be sold. You can draw your own conclusions about this one -- I've drawn mine. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] To buy or not to buy thats the Q > Hello there. > > Im doing some research of building a steel boat (hull). > > Ive seen a company (Boatbuilding ws) in Canada that build steel hulls > without frames. > Designed by Brent Swain (?) > > I also notice a company in US who delivers steel hull as kits with > frames. > > Somebody here with experiences of Swain boats (motorsailer approx > 36ft) in REALLY bad weather ? > > What year did the author write his book about metalboats and are > informations updated ? (suppose technic and materials change over as > year past). > > I cant find the book at Amazon. > Do I need the book doing interiour ? Does it fit this purpose ? > > How should I design parts of hull when I have no drawings to look at ? > > I tried to search for Swain to pick up his background as a designer > but havent found any. > > thank You > > regards Jan Eikeland > | 1213|1211|2002-12-09 05:04:41|edward_stoneuk |Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Jan, I am building one of Brent Swains 36' designs. In general the plans show the plate dimensions before it is assembled whereas other designers show the dimensions of the finished vessel and the builder has to work out the plate dimensions. I know of boat builders that have been disappointed in that parts of the steel boat kits that they have bought don't fit. Whether this is due to the parts being incorrectly dimensioned or due to welding distortion I do not know. Before I settled on this design I spent some time looking at other designs even going so far as to buy plans. I don't need them now and so have them for sale at a very reasonable price considering what I paid for them. The would enable anyone to have a look at other designer's offerings very cheaply. Bruce Roberts 40' multi-chine `Spray' (building plans) Bruce Roberts 36' multi-chine long keel sailboat (building plans) Tom Colvin's 42' Junk Rigged Ocean Cruiser `Gazelle' (study plans) Jay R Benford's 35' Double ended sailboat `Mercedes' (study plans) `Metal Boats Building, Maintenance & Repair' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson (signed copy) `Spray The Ultimate Cruising Boat' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson Designs and Services list with 1997 price list by the Benford Design Group. Yacht design catalogue and price list by George Buehler. Yours for only 155 USD, or 243 CAD, or 100 GBP plus postage Regards, Ted| 1214|1211|2002-12-09 11:50:23|Paul Faulkner|Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Ted, I'll take you up on your offer for the plans and books. Please email me details about how you would like to complete the transaction. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Jan, I am building one of Brent Swains 36' designs. In general the plans show the plate dimensions before it is assembled whereas other designers show the dimensions of the finished vessel and the builder has to work out the plate dimensions. I know of boat builders that have been disappointed in that parts of the steel boat kits that they have bought don't fit. Whether this is due to the parts being incorrectly dimensioned or due to welding distortion I do not know. Before I settled on this design I spent some time looking at other designs even going so far as to buy plans. I don't need them now and so have them for sale at a very reasonable price considering what I paid for them. The would enable anyone to have a look at other designer's offerings very cheaply. Bruce Roberts 40' multi-chine `Spray' (building plans) Bruce Roberts 36' multi-chine long keel sailboat (building plans) Tom Colvin's 42' Junk Rigged Ocean Cruiser `Gazelle' (study plans) Jay R Benford's 35' Double ended sailboat `Mercedes' (study plans) `Metal Boats Building, Maintenance & Repair' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson (signed copy) `Spray The Ultimate Cruising Boat' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson Designs and Services list with 1997 price list by the Benford Design Group. Yacht design catalogue and price list by George Buehler. Yours for only 155 USD, or 243 CAD, or 100 GBP plus postage Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1215|1211|2002-12-09 11:58:41|richytill |Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Ted, the pattern development for the hull worked well here. How are you finding progress? I am presently putting on hatches and fitting bulkheads in a 36' fin keel. Finished welding in time to put on lots of paint before winter set in. There is no way I could afford to buy a boat like this without going deeply into debt. Building as material can be afforded seems the logical alternative. It is also hard to find exactly what you want--this design approach makes sense in that way Richard, Sechelt BC. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk " wrote: > Jan, > > I am building one of Brent Swains 36' designs. In general the plans > show the plate dimensions before it is assembled whereas other > designers show the dimensions of the finished vessel and the builder > has to work out the plate dimensions. I know of boat builders that > have been disappointed in that parts of the steel boat kits that they > have bought don't fit. Whether this is due to the parts being > incorrectly dimensioned or due to welding distortion I do not know. > > > Before I settled on this design I spent some time looking at other > designs even going so far as to buy plans. I don't need them now and > so have them for sale at a very reasonable price considering what I > paid for them. The would enable anyone to have a look at other > designer's offerings very cheaply. > > > Bruce Roberts 40' multi-chine `Spray' (building plans) > Bruce Roberts 36' multi-chine long keel sailboat (building plans) > > Tom Colvin's 42' Junk Rigged Ocean Cruiser `Gazelle' (study plans) > Jay R Benford's 35' Double ended sailboat `Mercedes' (study plans) > > `Metal Boats Building, Maintenance & Repair' by Bruce Roberts- Goodson > (signed copy) > `Spray The Ultimate Cruising Boat' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson > > Designs and Services list with 1997 price list by the Benford Design > Group. > > Yacht design catalogue and price list by George Buehler. > > Yours for only 155 USD, or 243 CAD, or 100 GBP plus postage > > Regards, > > Ted | 1216|1211|2002-12-09 19:46:42|fmichael graham|Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Jan: There are many companies that sell everything from basic plans & patterns to fully pre-cut hull & deck plates or CNC files to have your parts cut (Designs by George Buehler, Bruce Roberts, Denis Ganley, Trevor Bolt, etc.). What - more than anything else - differentiates these from the Brent Swain concept are cost of construction, degree of difficulty, cost of hull/deck material, and rudimentary hull design. Although I have not yet built a Brent Swain, my experience as a steel fabricator/welder and sailor/sailboat owner gives me some insight into what are most probably the pros & cons of choosing to build in the "Swain way". Too, my experience with the Canadian Navy & Coast Guard has made me very skeptical in what I would go to sea on. Cost of hull/deck material and construction: The Swain boats fair very well here. For most design kits you will "pay through the nose". The cost of the steel when building a "Swain" (origamiboat) would be lower than the alternatives due to less overall required material, less waste material and less welding. Specifically, less welding also means less grinding and less back-liniment. Believe me, you will not be too far into a project before the monotony of the labour makes you wonder why you ever started. Just by looking up the above-mentioned designers on the internet you will find that the pre-cut kits will, in most cases, cost you significantly more than building a "Swain". Degree of difficulty: I would think that, because the "Swain" method is more "grass-roots" that there would be more room for challenges in construction as a "kit boat" has an already designed keel(s), prop. shaft tube, etc.. Yet, with this web-site it seems that there are enough experienced members to help with solving any problem that should arise. I wonder if they will start charging consulting fees... Rudimentary hull design: I guess the two big questions here are; how does it look and how does it sail. I must confess that I have some concerns when it comes to the aestetics of the chine. I have looked at a few hulls and would definitely talk to one or two builders whom seem to have made the angles appear a little smoother and less abrupt. Still, it doesn't seem to detract from the seakeeping characteristics and as long as it is kept in the water and only hauled when no one was around I suppose it doesn't really matter. So, the most important question is: can this boat take me safely around the world? On a steel-hulled boat of 40' or less the "flex" of the hull would be minimal whether or not there was significant framing. One should consider that after adding longitudinal stiffeners and the odd transverse stringer, the addition of more framing in a hull of this size would offer a diminishing increase in hull stiffness while detrimentally increasing the hull weight. Remember, what we want is for our highest percentage of displacement to come from the lowest point of the boat(e.g. the keel) as the speed of the hull is reduced as the overall displacement increases over a certain value(displacement to length ratio). What sells me on the "Swain design" is the fact that several boats of this design have put a lot of "blue water" miles under their keels, including Brent Swain himself whom is, presently, puttering around in the great Pacific Ocean with no apparent interest in returning to his home port in the near future. I am planning to purchase a Swain in the new year to sail to the Philippines from Vancouver, Canada, if I can find a 36'-40' with twin keels. I hope I have been of some help. Good luck, Mike Graham "janeikeland " wrote: Hello there. Im doing some research of building a steel boat (hull). Ive seen a company (Boatbuilding ws) in Canada that build steel hulls without frames. Designed by Brent Swain (?) I also notice a company in US who delivers steel hull as kits with frames. Somebody here with experiences of Swain boats (motorsailer approx 36ft) in REALLY bad weather ? What year did the author write his book about metalboats and are informations updated ? (suppose technic and materials change over as year past). I cant find the book at Amazon. Do I need the book doing interiour ? Does it fit this purpose ? How should I design parts of hull when I have no drawings to look at ? I tried to search for Swain to pick up his background as a designer but havent found any. thank You regards Jan Eikeland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1217|1217|2002-12-09 21:02:29|Robert |Cockpit well|I want to know how much slope to give the cockpit foot well so that it drains correctly. Can someone give me some expert advice on installing the cockpit well? I am really having fun putting together the 36 footer - I plan to put the bilge keels on. Bob Meade Leesburg FL| 1218|1211|2002-12-09 21:30:00|richytill |Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q|Further, even if you hired a competent welder (not a welding shop)for a couple of days now and then to cut out the hull plates etc. it would surely be far less expensive in the long run than a kit boat. The folded boat, as it comes off of Brent's plans comes together effectively and efficiently--I know, I have just finished welding and painting one in my "spare time." The key here though is that there is comparitvely far less welding and hence far less distortion, time and welding costs. Building headstocks, setting up stations and laying out patterns is done away with as is flipping over the hull. The symetry, compared to using frames is, in all practicallity, perfect. The "Origami" book gives a great deal of practical information that plans, in general, do not. All the dockside admirals, prognosticators and naval astheticians who drop by the project, comment over and over on the "sleek" hydrodynamic form of the hull and ask repeatedly "you started when?" Some have admitted to the gallons and gallons of filler that typically get used to cover up all the warpage around seams and frames in conventional construction. Others are confused by the obvious presence of compound curves. They tend to leave with the comment--I can't believe it's metal and the usual "and you started when?" I made no attempt to get that " plastic boat look." A good weld, or stitch mark, is nothing to be ashamed of--nor is the metal the boat is made of. This is craftsmanship; it can speak for its' self. Steel has the advantage of being a very honest medium to work with; why not keep it that way? It tells you when it is rusting, when it is warping, when it is full thickness. A good weld is as strong as the metal around it. The charecteristics of this material are well understood and appropriately coated steel has stood the test of time. Perfect, no: practical, yes. This is not a gamble--it works. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > Jan: > There are many companies that sell everything from basic plans & patterns to fully pre-cut hull & deck plates or CNC files to have your parts cut (Designs by George Buehler, Bruce Roberts, Denis Ganley, Trevor Bolt, etc.). What - more than anything else - differentiates these from the Brent Swain concept are cost of construction, degree of difficulty, cost of hull/deck material, and rudimentary hull design. Although I have not yet built a Brent Swain, my experience as a steel fabricator/welder and sailor/sailboat owner gives me some insight into what are most probably the pros & cons of choosing to build in the "Swain way". Too, my experience with the Canadian Navy & Coast Guard has made me very skeptical in what I would go to sea on. > Cost of hull/deck material and construction: The Swain boats fair very well here. For most design kits you will "pay through the nose". The cost of the steel when building a "Swain" (origamiboat) would be lower than the alternatives due to less overall required material, less waste material and less welding. Specifically, less welding also means less grinding and less back-liniment. Believe me, you will not be too far into a project before the monotony of the labour makes you wonder why you ever started. Just by looking up the above-mentioned designers on the internet you will find that the pre-cut kits will, in most cases, cost you significantly more than building a "Swain". > Degree of difficulty: I would think that, because the "Swain" method is more "grass-roots" that there would be more room for challenges in construction as a "kit boat" has an already designed keel(s), prop. shaft tube, etc.. Yet, with this web-site it seems that there are enough experienced members to help with solving any problem that should arise. I wonder if they will start charging consulting fees... > Rudimentary hull design: I guess the two big questions here are; how does it look and how does it sail. I must confess that I have some concerns when it comes to the aestetics of the chine. I have looked at a few hulls and would definitely talk to one or two builders whom seem to have made the angles appear a little smoother and less abrupt. Still, it doesn't seem to detract from the seakeeping characteristics and as long as it is kept in the water and only hauled when no one was around I suppose it doesn't really matter. So, the most important question is: can this boat take me safely around the world? On a steel-hulled boat of 40' or less the "flex" of the hull would be minimal whether or not there was significant framing. One should consider that after adding longitudinal stiffeners and the odd transverse stringer, the addition of more framing in a hull of this size would offer a diminishing increase in hull stiffness while detrimentally increasing the hull weight. Remember, what we want is for our highest percentage of displacement to come from the lowest point of the boat(e.g. the keel) as the speed of the hull is reduced as the overall displacement increases over a certain value(displacement to length ratio). What sells me on the "Swain design" is the fact that several boats of this design have put a lot of "blue water" miles under their keels, including Brent Swain himself whom is, presently, puttering around in the great Pacific Ocean with no apparent interest in returning to his home port in the near future. I am planning to purchase a Swain in the new year to sail to the Philippines from Vancouver, Canada, if I can find a 36'-40' with twin keels. I hope I have been of some help. > Good luck, > Mike Graham > > "janeikeland janeikeland@y..." janeikeland@y... wrote: Hello there. > > Im doing some research of building a steel boat (hull). > > Ive seen a company (Boatbuilding ws) in Canada that build steel hulls > without frames. > Designed by Brent Swain (?) > > I also notice a company in US who delivers steel hull as kits with > frames. > > Somebody here with experiences of Swain boats (motorsailer approx > 36ft) in REALLY bad weather ? > > What year did the author write his book about metalboats and are > informations updated ? (suppose technic and materials change over as > year past). > > I cant find the book at Amazon. > Do I need the book doing interiour ? Does it fit this purpose ? > > How should I design parts of hull when I have no drawings to look at ? > > I tried to search for Swain to pick up his background as a designer > but havent found any. > > thank You > > regards Jan Eikeland > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1219|1219|2002-12-09 22:56:50|ve7vmt2001 |30' Brent Swain for sale|Anyone interested in 30' Brent Swain boat for sale on Vancouver Island should take a look at http://buysell.com/showad.asp? id=20971709 This boat is moored in Nanaimo with an asking price of $20,000 Cdn. I thought it was in good shape when I was shown around this summer and I was told a previous owner (Brent?) had taken it to Hawaii. I hope everyone can download the ad, if not, tell me and I can e- mail the page to you. John Fuller in Campbell River.| 1220|1219|2002-12-10 12:00:06|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale|John, Thanks for the heads up on the boat. I tried to access the page, but it said, "This ad no longer exists", even though I have member access to buysell.com. If you have a copy, can you forward to me? Thanks, Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] 30' Brent Swain for sale > Anyone interested in 30' Brent Swain boat for sale on Vancouver > Island should take a look at http://buysell.com/showad.asp? > id=20971709 > This boat is moored in Nanaimo with an asking price of $20,000 Cdn. > I thought it was in good shape when I was shown around this > summer and I was told a previous owner (Brent?) had taken it to > Hawaii. > > I hope everyone can download the ad, if not, tell me and I can e- > mail the page to you. > > John Fuller in Campbell River. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1221|1219|2002-12-10 18:50:44|ljanmi |Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale|The line was broken after the ? sign, try this: http://buysell.com/showad.asp?id=20971709 > I tried to access the page, but it said, "This ad no longer exists", even > though I have member access to buysell.com. If you have a copy, can you > forward to me? | 1222|1219|2002-12-10 19:51:55|J & H Fuller|Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale|I Forwaded the page to you even though your corrected link below works fine for me. If anyone else is having trouble just go to buysell.com and brouse the 23' to 32' sailboat section OR do a power search for Brent Swain, both should work. Good hunting! John. ----- Original Message ----- From: ljanmi To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 3:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale The line was broken after the ? sign, try this: http://buysell.com/showad.asp?id=20971709 > I tried to access the page, but it said, "This ad no longer exists", even > though I have member access to buysell.com. If you have a copy, can you > forward to me? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1223|1223|2002-12-15 00:04:10|alanmm1 |Free Year Subscription or Free Copies of Popular Boating Magazines|No personal information such as credit card or telephone number required. Give yourself or a friend a free gift for the holidays. Go to: http://www.boatowners.com/freebies.htm| 1224|1224|2002-12-17 00:32:16|fletchberry |origami dinghy|Are there plans for the dinghy or is all the information that is available in Brent's book? If plans are available, what is the cost? I thought this would be a great starter project. Matthew| 1225|1224|2002-12-17 00:47:44|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: origami dinghy|The pattern for the dinghy is in Brent's book, but I can also post it to the group files for you to print out and use for free. I'll get them scanned and posted some time this week or next. There is no The pattern looks very similar to the pattern for the big boat, but the "tabs" are on the sides instead of the bottom of the hull. There is no scale on the dinghy pattern --- you scale to what size you need. There isn't much, if any, information in the book on building the dinghy, but if you search the group's archives with the keyword "dinghy" and you'll get the postings with advice from Brent containing some advice on dinghy-building. He did say that you can play around with the pattern in cardboard, and whatever you come up with on that that works will also work in aluminum. In other words, have some fun and innovate Alex ************* Brent's advice from the his post back in May is as follows: "The amount of rocker you have with any origami boat is directly relative to the amount of flare in the topsides . Pull the topsides together and reduce their flare and the rocker and sheer will flatten. The reason for the midships seam is that aluminium isn't available in the widths it would take to get adequate beam in a dinghy. I used a 5 by 8 foot sheet for mine and had to weld pieces on to get the width. This involved a lot more seam that would have been the case if I had just welded two 4 foot wide sheets together accross the bottom, altho it took less material. I'd weld the complete flat dinghy plate together before trying to pull it into a dinghy.Welding the sides together before pulling the bow and stern together would be easier.The transom can be made more or less whatever shape you want , given approximatly the right width and depth.Shallower sides would make it easier to pull together, but slightly less stable.I'd probably go for a wider transom to improve stability if I were building mine again."| 1226|1226|2002-12-19 10:02:21|kupris1948 |what if your aground ?|I have listened to Brent and installed massive mooring bits. Does anybody have a method to winch a boat off of a grounding where no tide is going to float you off. I know that heeling the boat works alot of the time but if it does not is there anything else?| 1227|1226|2002-12-19 12:45:55|John Jones|Re: what if your aground ?|Okay, This may sound crazy but, being in the salvage business for the past 20 years well, close up your boat "watertight" then, take your main halyard and lead it out to deeper water, another boat or anchor...extensions may be needed and use a deck winch to haul yourself back out to deeper water. After all, what on your boat is stronger than the rig? Crude but it works. John ---------- >From: "kupris1948 " >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] what if your aground ? >Date: Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 10:02 > > I have listened to Brent and installed massive mooring bits. Does > anybody have a method to winch a boat off of a grounding where no > tide is going to float you off. I know that heeling the boat works > alot of the time but if it does not is there anything else? > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1228|1226|2002-12-19 13:08:53|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: what if your aground ?|Hi Capt. John, Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense but I'm thinking about Tom Colvins' cruise in "Antelope" when a mini tornado pushed him onto a sand bank and he had to wait for a salvage ship to come and get him off. I'm seeing 8 ton comealongs for sale for cheap with I/4" wire. My boat is 9 tons. Am I nuts or can a big anchor and comealong do any good. The obvious answer is maybe but I have no experience with such things... What do you think? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1229|1226|2002-12-19 23:33:56|John Jones|Re: what if your aground ?|Just a little at a time, slowly but surely, NEVER say die! ---------- >From: johnkupris@... >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] what if your aground ? >Date: Thu, Dec 19, 2002, 13:08 > > Hi Capt. John, > Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense but I'm > thinking about Tom Colvins' cruise in "Antelope" when a mini tornado pushed > him onto a sand bank and he had to wait for a salvage ship to come and get > him off. I'm seeing 8 ton comealongs for sale for cheap with I/4" wire. My > boat is 9 tons. Am I nuts or can a big anchor and comealong do any good. The > obvious answer is maybe but I have no experience with such things... What do > you think? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1230|1226|2002-12-24 14:08:30|pvanderwaart |Re: what if your aground ?|> After > all, what on your boat is stronger than the rig? In a spinnaker broach, the pull at the head of the mast might pull the boat over to 90 degrees. You wouldn't expect that to damage the rig. I suppose the force would be more if the hull had to be lifted a bit on one of the twin keels. Peter| 1231|1231|2002-12-24 21:55:26|Graeme|Fw: Urgent.|> > > > > > > > >READ IMMEDIATELY AND PASS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Someone is sending out a very cute screensaver of > the > > > > >Budweiser > > > > > > > > > > >>Frogs. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >If you download it, you will lose everything! Your > > hard > > > > >drive > > > > > > > > > > >>will crash > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >and someone from the Internet will get your screen > > name > > > > >and > > > > > > > > > > >>password! DO > > > > > > > > > > >> >NOT DOWNLOAD IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! > > > > > > > > > > >> >It just went into circulation yesterday. Please > > > distribute > > > > >this > > > > > > > > > > >> >message. This is a new, very malicious virus and not > > > many > > > > > > > > > > >>people know about > > > > > > > > > > >> >it. This information was announced yesterday morning > > > from > > > > > > > > > > >>Microsoft. > > > > > > > > > > >> >Please share it with everyone that might access the > > > > >Internet. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >Once again, Pass This Along To EVERYONE in your > > address > > > > >book so > > > > > > > > > > >>that this > > > > > > > > > > >> >may be stopped. AOL has said that this is a very > > > dangerous > > > > > > > > > > >>virus and that > > > > > > > > > > >> >there is NO remedy for it at this time. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >This is VERY important. If you receive a screen > saver > > > from > > > > >a > > > > > > > > > > >>friend or > > > > > > > > > > >> >anyone you may not know with the Budweiser Frogs in > > it, > > > DO > > > > >NOT > > > > > > > > > > >>DOWNLOAD IT > > > > > > > > > > >> >OR OPEN THE FILE! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________ > > > > > IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 1232|1232|2003-01-06 09:47:00|Phil S. |Brent's Location?|Hey has anyone heard from Brent lately? I wish he would write a book about his sailing adventures, I would love to hear about where he has been and what he has learned. Phil| 1233|1233|2003-01-07 09:22:43|Richard Murray |Twin-Keeler News Letter|I have noticed that there are a number of owners of twin-keel boats in this news group so I want to let those of you who may not already know that there is a good news letter dedicated to twin-keel boats. Other than being a twin-keeler I have no direct interest in this publication: Twin-Keeler 632 Brindidi Court Punta Gorda, FL 33950 USA Editor-Publisher Craig E. Anderson ceadma@... $12 US per year in US and Canada Regards, Rich Murray Weymouth MA| 1234|1234|2003-01-08 16:16:43|edward_stoneuk |Plans|Reading the deck measurements on my plans for a 36' I notice that the 2' 2 ¾" dimension where the straight side deck meets the curved side deck is more like 2' 5½" when measured against the other dimensions. Marking out using the 2' 2 ¾" gives a kink in the outer edge. Has anyone else noticed this or do I need new glasses? I would be interested to hear from builders how they cut out the side decks, from the plans or from patterns. Regards, Ted| 1235|1235|2003-01-09 09:42:50|J & H Fuller|36' BRENT SWAIN for sale.|I just came across this ad in the Vancouver Buy & Sell. The link will work tomorrow, it shows the ad with a photo. John Fuller. Campbell River. 36' BRENT SWAIN, steel hull w/bilge keels, pilot house, all heavy work done, perfect size for a family world cruiser, plans included, will consider trades. $22,000. Call Matthew Tel: 250-262-0034 http://buysell.com/showad.asp?id=21262407 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1236|1235|2003-01-09 10:23:44|Paul Liebenberg|Re: 36' BRENT SWAIN for sale.|Hey! thats my old boat! Sold it to Matt last year. Picture taken at my old trailer. Paul Liebenberg On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 06:42 AM, J & H Fuller wrote: > I just came across this ad in the Vancouver Buy & Sell. > > The link will work tomorrow, it shows the ad with a photo. > >            John Fuller.  Campbell River. > > > 36' BRENT SWAIN, steel hull w/bilge keels, pilot house, all heavy work > done, perfect size for a family world cruiser, plans included, will > consider trades. $22,000. Call Matthew  Tel: 250-262-0034 > > http://buysell.com/showad.asp?id=21262407 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1237|1237|2003-01-10 00:28:29|Mike Graham |NEWS ALERT! SANTA CLAUS LIVES ON DENMAN ISLAND!|I believe it was... oh way back in the olden days, in 1995, When, on a buying mission for some parts necessary to prepare my Cal 330 for sailing to the Philippines that, while in Popeye's Marine Store in North Vancouver, I came upon Brent Swain's book; " How to Build a Better Steel Boat, a Heretic's Guide". Now, I had longingly gazed at one of Brent's boats in that toy store called thunderbird marina, pushing my nose up against the cabinside windows(sorry about the snot), and clambering along it's decks(...and the footprints) yet, alas! It was not for me, it sold before I managed to save up enough allowance. (Having grown up with a father whom was a metallurgical engineer - but more importantly, an x-boilermaker out of the sheds of the VMD shipyards in Victoria - coupled with my own welder/fabricator experience in the steel industry, a steel-hulled boat to sail on is sailing perfected). Over the years I would think of that book - usually, while buried up to my butt in fibreglass mat, resin, & sawdust - but there was always something more pressing to buy. Well, the old Cal 330 is long since a pile of melted plastic and Popeye's never has the book in stock, but I recently received an e-mail from the North Pole(Denman Island), asking me if I would like a copy of Brent's other book, "Origami Metal Boatbuilding". With eager anticipation, I began my vigil of the mailbox, arriving at home after work(0600) and sitting on the front steps with my coffee and cigarette, waiting to pounce on the first mail-carrier that should unwittingly wander by (my Wife says that last part is kinky). Then, one day, the mail-carrier peeked carefully over the fence, stepped slowly through the gate, and, as he timidly reached into his bag, croaked in a small voice, "I have something for you". As I flew through the air, hands grabbing for the mailbag, my trusty border-collie at my side, I was reminiscent of a much younger me, "the christmas present destroyer". I cradled the envelope in my hands as I watched the mail-carrier sprint down the road, my faithful companion (dog, not wife) at his heels. Well, it has been a couple of days since I received the best christmas present that I have had in years and all I want to know is... Hey, Alex, did you get my cheque? Thanks to Santa Claus(Alex Christie) for making my New Year!(Oh, sure I'll probably be fired for dragging out my coffee breaks and my Wife wants to know why I am always in the bathroom for so long but to each piece of heaven there is a cost) I had better order the other book soon, I've already read through this one a few times. There is a sentence in this book that really is most appropriate and bears repeating: WARNING IF YOU LEND THIS BOOK, YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT AGAIN| 1238|1237|2003-01-11 01:49:26|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: NEWS ALERT! SANTA CLAUS LIVES ON DENMAN ISLAND!|Great post, Mike! I didn't know the book's arrival had such a powerful impact on you! I must admit when I first got the book I hid myself from my family for long periods in order to digest undisturbed the wonders contained within. I've never looked at the things quite the same since. Cheers, Alex Christie| 1239|1239|2003-01-12 13:59:58|downdeep1968 |boats and fuel decisions|I need some help from those experienced people out there! I was talking with someone the other day and was very concerned with his choices for fuel. He is running a 4 cly diesel engine...no problem here. He has decided to use propane for his stove, fridge/freezer and a sorce of heat. It has been istalled properly above the deck in what are now benches to sit on, aft of the cockpit. Everything works and looks good. He has also added a small tank for gas in which to hold fuel for his new Honda generator. Is this not asking for trouble? I have not looked at it but I understand that each system has been installed properly with the correct venting, locations, check valves etc... Is ths a mixture whating to explode?| 1240|1240|2003-01-12 22:19:22|Claude Poitras|Brent's Book|Hello everyone. I have Brent's book "How to build a better steel boat, a Heretic's guide". I am hearing of a second book "origami Metal Boatbuilding". Is it the same book with a new name? Claude Poitras [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1241|1239|2003-01-13 00:49:37|fmichael graham|Re: boats and fuel decisions|My last sailboat had; 1) a gas engine, 2) a CNG stove, and a pressurized kerosene heater(force10). I never had a problem but, obviously, the more things that can be run off of the same fuel - preferably diesel - the better. The important concern is how safe are the storage & delivery systems in each case. I hope that the containment area for the propane is properly covered and that the storage area has sufficient overboard drainage in case of a liquid-leak and that it is well vented for fume dissipation. It has been my experience and understanding that most professionally installed systems are safe if one constantly cleans and maintains the complete systems in the required manner. I think that no system in a boat gets as much thought and attention by the owner as fuel storage/delivery systems. Having said this, the vast majority of boat fires would have been averted had the owner maintained the systems diligently. And some owners think teak is the biggest headache! Mike Graham "downdeep1968 " wrote: I need some help from those experienced people out there! I was talking with someone the other day and was very concerned with his choices for fuel. He is running a 4 cly diesel engine...no problem here. He has decided to use propane for his stove, fridge/freezer and a sorce of heat. It has been istalled properly above the deck in what are now benches to sit on, aft of the cockpit. Everything works and looks good. He has also added a small tank for gas in which to hold fuel for his new Honda generator. Is this not asking for trouble? I have not looked at it but I understand that each system has been installed properly with the correct venting, locations, check valves etc... Is ths a mixture whating to explode? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1242|1240|2003-01-13 11:12:08|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Brent's Book|Yes, they are both the same book, just different titles. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Claude Poitras To: Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Brent's Book > Hello everyone. > I have Brent's book "How to build a better steel boat, a Heretic's guide". > I am hearing of a second book "origami Metal Boatbuilding". > Is it the same book with a new name? > > Claude Poitras > > | 1243|1243|2003-01-14 00:16:00|Shane |Origami boats on Woodenboat forum!|Gidday Ive been a member here for awhile now albeit a silent one... There has been a discussion happening over at the woodenboat.com forum {here... http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 } So I have referred them to this board and included some photos from the files section {only a few to show the basic method!} I trust no one minds my doing this but I figured that it would be okay in the vein the question was asked and the response was offered that of understanding and learning. If ravencoast {couple of your pics were used which I viewed as the best at clarity of how the boats go together} or anyone objects please feel free to inform myself either here on the woodenboat forum or through my email. I would have asked first but unfortunately Ive been unable to get into the yahoo groups site since I gathered the information used... hence my doing so now! a matter of minutes after posting my first response on the woodenboat forum. Take it easy Shane| 1244|1243|2003-01-14 00:17:56|Shane |Re: Origami boats on Woodenboat forum!|That link didnt seem to work so here it is again... http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 otherwise I guess copy and paste into a new window will bring up the page on the forum Take it easy Shane --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Shane " wrote: > Gidday > Ive been a member here for awhile now albeit a silent one... There > has been a discussion happening over at the woodenboat.com forum > {here... http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? > ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 } So I have referred them to this > board and included some photos from the files section {only a few to > show the basic method!} I trust no one minds my doing this but I > figured that it would be okay in the vein the question was asked and > the response was offered that of understanding and learning. > > If ravencoast {couple of your pics were used which I viewed as the > best at clarity of how the boats go together} or anyone objects > please feel free to inform myself either here on the woodenboat > forum or through my email. > > I would have asked first but unfortunately Ive been unable to get > into the yahoo groups site since I gathered the information used... > hence my doing so now! a matter of minutes after posting my first > response on the woodenboat forum. > Take it easy > Shane | 1245|1243|2003-01-14 00:24:59|Shane |Re: Origami boats on Woodenboat forum!|Okay that definantly didnt work like I wanted so... go to http://www.woodenboat.com click on forum down the right hand side then click into the forum listing for "misc non-boat related" then find the post by Braam Berrub called "Non WOODENboat related - steel boat construction" Pity it took 3 posts to get that! will have to devise a better method of getting what I want to say said. Take it easy Shane --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Shane " wrote: > That link didnt seem to work so here it is again... > > http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? > ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 > > otherwise I guess copy and paste into a new window will bring up the > page on the forum > Take it easy > Shane > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Shane " > wrote: > > Gidday > > Ive been a member here for awhile now albeit a silent one... There > > has been a discussion happening over at the woodenboat.com forum > > {here... http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? > > ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 } So I have referred them to > this > > board and included some photos from the files section {only a few > to > > show the basic method!} I trust no one minds my doing this but I > > figured that it would be okay in the vein the question was asked > and > > the response was offered that of understanding and learning. > > > > If ravencoast {couple of your pics were used which I viewed as the > > best at clarity of how the boats go together} or anyone objects > > please feel free to inform myself either here on the woodenboat > > forum or through my email. > > > > I would have asked first but unfortunately Ive been unable to get > > into the yahoo groups site since I gathered the information > used... > > hence my doing so now! a matter of minutes after posting my first > > response on the woodenboat forum. > > Take it easy > > Shane | 1246|1246|2003-01-14 11:27:43|Marco Ahrens|Material list|Hi Folks! As I am new member of your group I have a few questions regarding material list for the 40' i picked up from the site. 1. The two 40'x8' plates required. Can these be made up of two 40'x5' strips welded together as 40'x8' plates are not available were I live. 2. Can plating sold in "reels" be used or does it have to be plate mill in order for the hull halfes to bend into shape. The idea with minimum frames is great in my opinion, especially after having spent all day welding rust on my old Mauritius 43. Thinking of building a new hull and use rigging engine etc from my old boat. Thanks in advance Marco Ahrens Cyprus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1247|1246|2003-01-14 21:06:11|Gord Schnell|Re: Material list|I would NOT use 5' plates to make up the 2 hull-halves. The welds will interfere with the forming of the natural, smooth simple and complex curves that make up the hull. I used 8' "roll" or "reel" material. The steel is reverse rolled to flatten the plates as they are removed from the roll. They came out very flat. The hull comes out very smooth and fair using this method. Gord Marco Ahrens wrote: > > Hi Folks! > > As I am new member of your group I have a few questions > regarding material list for the 40' i picked up from the > site. > > 1. The two 40'x8' plates required. Can these be made up of > two 40'x5' strips welded together as 40'x8' plates are not > available were I live. > > 2. Can plating sold in "reels" be used or does it have to > be plate mill in order for the hull halfes to bend into > shape. > > The idea with minimum frames is great in my opinion, > especially after having spent all day welding rust on my > old Mauritius 43. Thinking of building a new hull and use > rigging engine etc from my old boat. > > Thanks in advance > > Marco Ahrens > Cyprus > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1248|1246|2003-01-14 22:39:12|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Material list|I think the idea is to have 2 identical flat patterns. any way you can achieve this would be acceptable. It will be tricky to get things welded flat, but it can be done. think though the whole procedure, this could be a big part of building the boat. Paul On Tuesday, January 14, 2003, at 07:56 AM, Marco Ahrens wrote: > Hi Folks! > > As I am new member of your group I have a few questions regarding > material list for the 40' i picked up from the site. > > 1. The two 40'x8' plates required. Can these be made up of two 40'x5' > strips welded together as 40'x8' plates are not available were I live. > > 2. Can plating sold in "reels" be used or does it have to be plate > mill in order for the hull halfes to bend into shape. > > The idea with minimum frames is great in my opinion, especially after > having spent all day welding rust on my old Mauritius 43. Thinking of > building a new hull and use rigging engine etc from my old boat. > > Thanks in advance > > Marco Ahrens > Cyprus > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1249|1246|2003-01-15 13:23:43|edward_stoneuk |Re: Material list|Marco, I could not get 40' x 8' (12m x 2.5m) sheet either so I welded together two 6m x 2.5m sheets. There is less welding and therefore less possibility of distortion. Even so the the welding must only be done in very short lengths and given time to cool or it will distort. Before welding chamfer the edges to be welded and fair the join using flat bar tacked across the join every 1' (310mm) or so. These fairing bars are removed after the join has been welded and the gaps welded. After I had formed a hull side into a shell I rolled it over using two chain hoists shackled to the barn stanchions, one pulling the other holding it back so that it did not roll too far. This allowed me to grind out the other side of the welds and finish the welding in a mostly downhand position. I think most plate of this thickness is decoiled off a roll or coil. Regards, Ted| 1250|1250|2003-01-17 22:17:28|Alex & Kim Christie|interesting link about steel boat sailor|Here is an interesting link to a page about a sailor of a steel boat who is definitely living the code of voluntary simplicity! A Law Unto Himself By James Baldwin With an unlegislated spirit and nary a penny in his pocket, cruiser Kris Larson wanders the Indian Ocean doing battle with bureaucracy. http://www.yachtatom.com/ALawUntoHimself.html| 1251|733|2003-01-17 23:03:10|Larry Doyle |Brent's book|Anybody know the usual lead time for Brent's book? I ordered a copy about 3 weeks ago to be delivered to North Carolina. Larry Doyle| 1252|1252|2003-01-18 23:13:19|Graeme|Darwin|Hi All regarding that site where is has a bit to say about Darwin Australia. I lived there for 3 years and it is a nice place to visit and stay over in the best time of the year is June / July mid southern winter with good facilities for boaties, very suitable for twin keelers as there is very tidal movement place 8 tm so you can beach your dream for it can be maintained with out the costs of lifting. As for the renegades that live there it is the same in other parts of the world they are moving around all the time as transient ppl in the fishing industry , mining and such. The laid back life style is true it is in the N.T not today Tuesday or Thursday just a local joke and very friendly city. Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1253|1253|2003-01-18 23:15:23|Graeme|Plans of brents|With the plans of brents do these include the cut outs for the folds or not for the 40x 8 hull sides. Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1254|1254|2003-01-18 23:29:37|Graeme|3.7 mt sailing around the world|When I was in Darwin last year there was a 65 year old Russian sailor on his way around the world in a 3.7 mt sail boat that was stopped over in Darwin it was barely enough room for him to lay down in the boat, he built the boat on the side of his house swung from the roof . When he left Darwin he was on is way to Christmas island then on back to Russia he carried 200 lt of fresh water and all his belongings in this small craft that he had built himself. I had some photos but the digital camera went flat and I lost them I will contact the N.T news and see if they can email me some that I could post in the room. Has any one else heard of him since about August 2002 when he left Darwin.??? Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1255|1254|2003-01-19 02:24:12|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: 3.7 mt sailing around the world|This guy's adventures sure make the idea of sailing a 36 foot Swain around the world look like extreme luxury in comparison. Still, it speaks to Brent's philosophy that the simpler your systems the more care-free your sailing. I've only been able to dig up these two links regarding the 65 year-old Russian sailor Evgeniv Gvozdev and his 13 ft boat: http://origin.island.lk/2002/11/10/news03.html Most recent news of him, I think. Details his near-demise in Somalia and subsequent welcome in Sri Lanka. http://content.mail.ru/arch/1139/156252.html Russian new report on the man (you have to scroll down to find the item) http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/sailing/08/03/russian.sailor.ppl/ CNN news item on him. Alex| 1256|1254|2003-01-19 07:26:03|Phillip Allen|Re: 3.7 mt sailing around the world|Thank you for a good read, Phillip (whos problems just got a little smaller) Alex & Kim Christie wrote:This guy's adventures sure make the idea of sailing a 36 foot Swain around the world look like extreme luxury in comparison. Still, it speaks to Brent's philosophy that the simpler your systems the more care-free your sailing. I've only been able to dig up these two links regarding the 65 year-old Russian sailor Evgeniv Gvozdev and his 13 ft boat: http://origin.island.lk/2002/11/10/news03.html Most recent news of him, I think. Details his near-demise in Somalia and subsequent welcome in Sri Lanka. http://content.mail.ru/arch/1139/156252.html Russian new report on the man (you have to scroll down to find the item) http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/sailing/08/03/russian.sailor.ppl/ CNN news item on him. Alex Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1257|1257|2003-01-20 06:27:58|Graeme|plans |Hi Alex do you know if the plans have the cut outs for hull the same as on the demo file that is on the site or do you have to work them out on a grap map ??? Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1258|1258|2003-01-20 08:05:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: plans|Graeme, I have Brent's plans for the 31' boat. You don't lay it out using a grid. You are give measurements from the outside edges of the plate to various lines, and arcs. It is really very simple. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graeme" To: Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 6:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] plans > Hi > Alex do you know if the plans have the cut outs for hull the same as on the demo file that is on the site or do you have to work them out on a grap map ??? > > Regards > > Graeme > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1259|1259|2003-01-20 08:46:40|Graeme|PLANS |Gary thanks for that I need simple Regards Graeme [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1260|1240|2003-01-22 10:05:53|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Re: Brent's Book|Hi Guy's the price fiven for the books is it im Us $ or Canadian $ thanking u in advance Sharad Sharma| 1261|1261|2003-01-22 11:25:55|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Brent's Book Price|Sharad, The price for the books is in US dollars for US and International addresses. Alex > Hi Guy's > the price fiven for the books is it im Us $ or Canadian $ > thanking u in advance > Sharad Sharma > | 1262|1261|2003-01-22 20:19:33|J & H Fuller|Re: Brent's Book Price|So Alex that means it's in Cdn $ for Cdns, eh? Is it possible to pick up the book in person, as I'm going to be in Courtenay on Sat afternoon. You may want to reply to this offlist if you don't want to see 465 people suddenly becoming Canadians :o) John ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex & Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Brent's Book Price Sharad, The price for the books is in US dollars for US and International addresses. Alex > Hi Guy's > the price fiven for the books is it im Us $ or Canadian $ > thanking u in advance > Sharad Sharma > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1263|1261|2003-01-22 21:00:54|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Re: Brent's Book Price|I am not canadian but my Currency is on par with the canadian dollar i wish u would charge the people from other countries in canadian dollars it pains us the same in paying Us $ o ye si cannot become acanadian as i Am from Aruba Regards Sharad Sharma On 22 Jan 2003 at 17:19, J & H Fuller wrote: > So Alex that means it's in Cdn $ for Cdns, eh? > Is it possible to pick up the book in person, as I'm going to be in > Courtenay on Sat afternoon. > You may want to reply to this offlist if you don't want to see 465 > people > suddenly becoming Canadians :o) > > John > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex & Kim Christie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:26 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Brent's Book Price > > > Sharad, > > The price for the books is in US dollars for US and International > addresses. > > Alex > > > Hi Guy's > > the price fiven for the books is it im Us $ or Canadian $ > > thanking u in advance > > Sharad Sharma > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > HGTV Dream Home Giveaway > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. | 1264|1261|2003-01-23 00:16:51|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Brent's Book Price|I imagine Brent has set his prices to defray the higher costs of shipping to US and overseas destinations. Anyone with further questions in this regard should direct them to Brent himself if possible. ...in case there is some confusion, please note that I do not have anything to do with Brent's plans and book sales, I just moderate the Origamiboats forum! Alex Christie > I am not canadian but my Currency is on par with the canadian dollar i wish u would > charge the people from other countries in canadian dollars it pains us the same in > paying Us $ o ye si cannot become acanadian as i Am from Aruba > Regards Sharad Sharma > | 1265|1265|2003-01-23 16:36:12|Alex Christie |photo of steering linkage|I've added an interesting photo of Silas Crosby's steering linkage over the aft-cabin. A great solution which still maintains the simplicity of the transom hung rudder. Alex| 1266|1266|2003-01-24 09:00:27|Phil S. |Alex|Where di you post the steering gear pic? Thanks Phil| 1267|1267|2003-01-24 09:19:08|Phil S. |never mind|Found it,Thanks| 1268|1268|2003-01-25 03:13:28|Alex & Kim Christie|origami boats in Boatbuilder magazine|According to this magazine links page there are articles on building the origami way in Boatbuilder magazine. http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/jfh/personal_other/boats/FAQ/node54.html (use "find" to locate the "origami" reference) A search of the index on Boatbuilder Magazine's website (www.boatbuildermagazine.com) reveals that three issues have articles on what they call "shrink-wrap" steel boatbuilding, starting with May/June 1999. Anyone having these magazines on hand, could you have a look and see what they are all about, and if it applies to the origami boatbuilding methods? Cheers, Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1269|1269|2003-01-25 03:35:13|Alex Christie |New album added to photo section |For your interest, a new photo album, entitled "36 foot MY ISLAND" has been added to the photos section of the site. Alex| 1270|1269|2003-01-25 13:34:23|pvanderwaart |Re: New album added to photo section|> For your interest, a new photo album, entitled "36 foot MY ISLAND" > has been added to the photos section of the site. That boat looks fabulous. Good photos of the bottom show the hull shape better than most too. - Peter| 1271|1265|2003-01-25 15:27:10|Alex Christie |Re: photo of steering linkage|Because there is a jumble of confusing lines hiding the steering linkage in some places, I've added another photo to the Silas Crosby file which has a red-line overlay to show where the steering linkage is over the aft cabin. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie " wrote: > I've added an interesting photo of Silas Crosby's steering linkage > over the aft-cabin. A great solution which still maintains the > simplicity of the transom hung rudder. > > Alex | 1272|1272|2003-01-25 18:53:07|robertgm36 |Head design|Has anyone modified a head ala Brents design in his book ? Does it work okay ,any problems ? Robert| 1273|1269|2003-01-26 08:57:53|Larry Doyle |Re: New album added to photo section|Alex, Any chance of getting some more pictures of this boat? Inside and out. She's a very beautiful boat and a little different than the rest of the boats built to Brent's design. Larry --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie " wrote: > For your interest, a new photo album, entitled "36 foot MY ISLAND" > has been added to the photos section of the site. > > Alex | 1274|1274|2003-01-27 14:08:05|aklove2u |RUDDER DIMENSIONS|I would address this question to Brent if he were anywhere near affordable internet use, but as I sure he is not any help is appreciated. The plans for the rudder call for an 8'9" rudder when we (Brent and I) cut the rudder out It was from an 8' plate giving the leading edge an 8' length I don't recall him saying anything about adding the remaining inches nor does his book or plans say anything about it. The 8' length brings the rudderhead over the top of the transom to what appears to be a nice height for the tiller to be. Is this (8') an o.k length? Second from looking at the plans the leading edge of the rudder has a cutaway section at the top from the side view it appears to be about 18' long but from the front shot of the leading edge it appears to be about 28-30 inches. What is the correct layout for this spot? Greg| 1275|1275|2003-01-29 14:56:41|downdeep1968 |twin keels and rudders?|Was doing some reading out there and found some information on twin keels using twin rudders. I was wondering if anyone out there has ever seen, tried to incorperate this idea? I found that this was tried back in about 1920 with Lord Riverdale who build several boats from 25 to 48 feet with twin keels and twin rudders. His reason for twin rudders was that when healed one keel runs deeper in the water and having a rudder on each keel gives better steering of the vessel. Has anyone tried this? Know of any info etc?| 1276|1275|2003-01-29 20:43:13|Jim Phillips|Re: twin keels and rudders?|The Around Alone boats have single keels and twin rudders. The windward rudder is often out of the water, hence the need for the leeward rudder which is conveniently in the water. They are angles slightly outwards to ensure that the leeward rudder is closer to vertical. Cheers, Jim. --- "downdeep1968 " wrote: > Was doing some reading out there and found some > information on twin > keels using twin rudders. I was wondering if anyone > out there has > ever seen, tried to incorperate this idea? I found > that this was > tried back in about 1920 with Lord Riverdale who > build several boats > from 25 to 48 feet with twin keels and twin rudders. > His reason for > twin rudders was that when healed one keel runs > deeper in the water > and having a rudder on each keel gives better > steering of the vessel. > Has anyone tried this? Know of any info etc? > > http://movies.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Movies - What's on at your local cinema?| 1277|1275|2003-01-29 21:01:13|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: twin keels and rudders?|I recall that these Around Alone monohulls have very wide beams, so when the hull is heeled and a centreline rudder would come clear of the water. There definitely needs to be twin rudders in order to remain in control. On a narrower conventional cruising monohull like the Swain hull, the centreline remains in the water (unless you were being pitch-poled, of course!), so the single rudder show be fine. The effect of twin rudders in this instance wouldn't do much more than create additional drag through increased wetted surface. Phil Bolger has experimented with putting endplates on rudders to give more bite when a vessel is heeled, although again I don't know if this has ever been something considered for Swain's boats. Alex| 1278|1275|2003-01-29 23:44:57|John Jones|Re: twin keels and rudders?|So would both rudders turn at the same time? ---------- >From: "downdeep1968 " >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] twin keels and rudders? >Date: Wed, Jan 29, 2003, 14:56 > > Was doing some reading out there and found some information on twin > keels using twin rudders. I was wondering if anyone out there has > ever seen, tried to incorperate this idea? I found that this was > tried back in about 1920 with Lord Riverdale who build several boats > from 25 to 48 feet with twin keels and twin rudders. His reason for > twin rudders was that when healed one keel runs deeper in the water > and having a rudder on each keel gives better steering of the vessel. > Has anyone tried this? Know of any info etc? > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1279|1279|2003-01-30 01:51:23|Alex Christie |VW Rabbit engine installation|I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 footer album, these showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit diesel, plus one of the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a nice clean set- up. Does anyone have experience with these types of diesels? Speak up and tell us what you know! Alex| 1280|1275|2003-01-30 03:49:59|downdeep1968 |Re: twin keels and rudders?|I got to see the boat again today and it looks like aft of the keels he has a horizontal bar extending from the bottom of the keel back level to the stern of the boat to what would be dual skegs?!. Mounted behind this brace are both the rudders with what looks like same angle as the keels. He has both rudder stocks mounted to the transom and hydraulic steering attached. I figured that they would be better put to use behind the keels? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > So would both rudders turn at the same time? > > ---------- > >From: "downdeep1968 " > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] twin keels and rudders? > >Date: Wed, Jan 29, 2003, 14:56 > > > > > Was doing some reading out there and found some information on twin > > keels using twin rudders. I was wondering if anyone out there has > > ever seen, tried to incorperate this idea? I found that this was > > tried back in about 1920 with Lord Riverdale who build several boats > > from 25 to 48 feet with twin keels and twin rudders. His reason for > > twin rudders was that when healed one keel runs deeper in the water > > and having a rudder on each keel gives better steering of the vessel. > > Has anyone tried this? Know of any info etc? > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > | 1281|1279|2003-01-30 10:04:17|sagedsrt|Re: VW Rabbit engine installation|Some limited info: VW diesels were and still are used by several different automakers as their diesel powerplant. (Land Rover, Volvo, etc.) I had a mid 80's Volvo diesel station wagon with a VW built engine, albeit a I6 cyl vs. the Rabbit I4. (The I6 uses 1 1/2 I4 kits for rebuild) The car ran great and I saw better then 30mpg for this tank, but it was very hard to start. I pulled the head to check the head gasket and valves, and noticed that there were cracks in the head between the valve seats. A local (and very knowledgable bunch of guys) VW parts place said this is common and a "given" on VW diesel engines of this era. This crack is not a death knell, as the engine will run and this shop assured it would re-occur if the head is replaced. I gave up on the car (rings shot) so I can't attest to this, but I would imagine it would eventually cause problems. I would suggest periodically pulling the head and checking. A side note I got from an experienced Mercedes diesel mechnic during my investigaton of this engine: Never let a diesel sit for long periods of time without running up to temperature. (I can see this in a sailboat) The piston rings will collapse and cannot be resealed without pulling the pistons. He assured me he has seen mechnically perfect engines that had low or no compression even after oiling the cylinders, penetrating oil in the cylinders, etc. --- "Alex Christie " wrote: > I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 > footer album, these > showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit > diesel, plus one of > the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a > nice clean set- > up. Does anyone have experience with these types of > diesels? Speak > up and tell us what you know! > > Alex > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com| 1282|1279|2003-01-30 10:28:31|John Jones|Re: VW Rabbit engine installation|Head gaskets seem to blow at regular intervals too, it's about a $200 job as the "non re-usable stretch head bolts cost $10.00 each and the gasket costs $100.. The job is a simple do it yourself. My old VW 4 cyl model gave great milage ($45.00 for fuel Toronto to Key Largo) I'd drive for eight hours straight non-stop and use up $12 in fuel, the tank was'nt empty but ohh my kidneys...yikes.I think it was a 10 imp. gallon tank. I gave it up when the car rusted off the engine and then sold the engine. ---------- >From: sagedsrt >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] VW Rabbit engine installation >Date: Thu, Jan 30, 2003, 10:04 > > Some limited info: VW diesels were and still are used > by several different automakers as their diesel > powerplant. (Land Rover, Volvo, etc.) I had a mid > 80's Volvo diesel station wagon with a VW built > engine, albeit a I6 cyl vs. the Rabbit I4. (The I6 > uses 1 1/2 I4 kits for rebuild) The car ran great and > I saw better then 30mpg for this tank, but it was very > hard to start. I pulled the head to check the head > gasket and valves, and noticed that there were cracks > in the head between the valve seats. A local (and > very knowledgable bunch of guys) VW parts place said > this is common and a "given" on VW diesel engines of > this era. This crack is not a death knell, as the > engine will run and this shop assured it would > re-occur if the head is replaced. I gave up on the car > (rings shot) so I can't attest to this, but I would > imagine it would eventually cause problems. I would > suggest periodically pulling the head and checking. A > side note I got from an experienced Mercedes diesel > mechnic during my investigaton of this engine: Never > let a diesel sit for long periods of time without > running up to temperature. (I can see this in a > sailboat) The piston rings will collapse and cannot > be resealed without pulling the pistons. He assured > me he has seen mechnically perfect engines that had > low or no compression even after oiling the cylinders, > penetrating oil in the cylinders, etc. > > --- "Alex Christie " > wrote: >> I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 >> footer album, these >> showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit >> diesel, plus one of >> the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a >> nice clean set- >> up. Does anyone have experience with these types of >> diesels? Speak >> up and tell us what you know! >> >> Alex >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1283|1274|2003-01-30 11:24:06|edward_stoneuk |Re: RUDDER DIMENSIONS|Greg, I recently started cutting out the rudder and noticed that it is longer than an 8' sheet. I used 8' side of the sheet as the trailing edge of the rudder to give me a little bit more length. I haven't worked out what to do with the top yet. I guess that the cutaway on the leading edge is so the it can be lifted onto the locating eyes without fouling and so needs to be long enough for the pintles to clear the eyes. Regards, Ted| 1284|1284|2003-01-30 13:16:55|aklove2u |Rudder|Ted A look at the pictures available on this site show that it appears to be open to interpretation as the boat under the title Shair has what appears to be the full 8'9" rudder whereas most other photos the rudderhead just seems to clear the transom, As my boat is twin keeled I will be raising it a little higher on the skeg for being on the beach and will gain a few inches at the head that way. I guess the height that your really shooting for is where you would like your tiller when your standing in the cockpit. My leading edge is exactly 8'2" which when raised off the bottom of the skeg a few inches gives me a nice tiller height in the cockpit. I didnt bang the pipe to a point as per Brents book, as I plan to weld the bottom plate to the pipe bang it in place then weld it to the bottom of the rudder to stiffen the whole unit as it may end up on a rock someday. I used a peice of 1/2" scrap that was wedge shaped a banged it in there until the pipe fit. I don't know how much this is needed as the bottom plate is fairly small and should therefore be quite strong but... A look at Winstons' Dove 4 shows that he didn't even cut out a notch in the leading edge. As he has built a few of these boats all of which have been well sailed I'm sure it is not necessary and I would have done the same just for simplicity were it not for the fact that mine was already cut out. What I can't tell by the photo is if this edge is tapered to a point like the bottom edge of the rudder or if it is squared off like per the plans. Good luck Greg| 1285|1284|2003-01-30 13:16:59|aklove2u |Rudder|Ted A look at the pictures available on this site show that it appears to be open to interpretation as the boat under the title Shair has what appears to be the full 8'9" rudder whereas most other photos the rudderhead just seems to clear the transom, As my boat is twin keeled I will be raising it a little higher on the skeg for being on the beach and will gain a few inches at the head that way. I guess the height that your really shooting for is where you would like your tiller when your standing in the cockpit. My leading edge is exactly 8'2" which when raised off the bottom of the skeg a few inches gives me a nice tiller height in the cockpit. I didnt bang the pipe to a point as per Brents book, as I plan to weld the bottom plate to the pipe bang it in place then weld it to the bottom of the rudder to stiffen the whole unit as it may end up on a rock someday. I used a peice of 1/2" scrap that was wedge shaped a banged it in there until the pipe fit. I don't know how much this is needed as the bottom plate is fairly small and should therefore be quite strong but... A look at Winstons' Dove 4 shows that he didn't even cut out a notch in the leading edge. As he has built a few of these boats all of which have been well sailed I'm sure it is not necessary and I would have done the same just for simplicity were it not for the fact that mine was already cut out. What I can't tell by the photo is if this edge is tapered to a point like the bottom edge of the rudder or if it is squared off like per the plans. Good luck Greg| 1286|1286|2003-01-30 14:55:54|put_to_sea |Prop location on My Island|I noticed the location of the prop on "My Island". The propshaft exits the back of the keel rather than being placed in the skeg. Does anyone have any information on advantages to this location? I would think it would improve rudder authority under sail.| 1287|1279|2003-01-30 23:14:21|Gord Schnell|Re: VW Rabbit engine installation|I'm using a 1.6L Jetta turbo diesel in my 40'. Pathfinder Yachts of California used them for years. Saw one running in Squamish. So smooth you couldn't tell it was running. We'll see. Gord "Alex Christie " wrote: > > I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 footer album, these > showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit diesel, plus one of > the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a nice clean set- > up. Does anyone have experience with these types of diesels? Speak > up and tell us what you know! > > Alex > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. | 1288|1275|2003-01-31 16:43:34|pvanderwaart |Re: twin keels and rudders?|> Phil Bolger has experimented with putting endplates on rudders > to give more bite when a vessel is heeled, although again > I don't know if this has ever been something considered for > Swain's boats. This is just a quibble, but the end plate effect does not have to do with being heeled. The idea is that if the rudder has a long bottom edge (think of the "barn door" rudder on a Cape Cod catboat) then water tends to circulate from the high pressure side under the bottom to the low pressure side. The end plate reduces this flow and makes the rudder more effective. If the rudder is fairly high aspect ratio, i.e. has only a short bottom edge, then the end plate is unnecessary. To put it another way, the end plate only makes sense if the rudder needs to be shallow. A lot of boats with twin rudders have some sort of expensive arrangement to lift the windward rudder out of the water. And there is a boat here is Stamford named Snow Goose that has a rudder than can be swiveled to the vertical position on either way the boat is heeled. All this is unnecessary on a non-racing, cruising monohull of ordinary proportion. Very un-Swain-like, I should think. Peter| 1289|1289|2003-02-02 00:31:34|robertgm36 |prop location|My 36 twin keel has the prop located in front of the skeg same as My Island . I did not build this boat but it works well and seems to make sense on a twin keel. Would be interested in others with this design. Still would like feedback on the head design in Brents book. Robert| 1290|1279|2003-02-03 00:40:44|russa1111 |Re: VW Rabbit engine installation|Hi all, Just popped in to see how things are going and had to answer this. I am running the only piece of my boat that I actually acquired. I bought a 1984 Jetta Diesel car for Cdn$1500 with the idea of playing with it, getting to know diesels and marinising it before I built the boat and so I had an engine ready to install. Well, the boat never got built but I was so impressed with the engine that I kept the car. I use it every day to work (30kms) and it has 306,000kms on it, doesn't burn any oil between changes and does 50 mpg or 5.6 ltrs/100kms. Russ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > I'm using a 1.6L Jetta turbo diesel in my 40'. Pathfinder > Yachts of California used them for years. Saw one running in > Squamish. So smooth you couldn't tell it was running. We'll > see. > Gord > > > "Alex Christie " wrote: > > > > I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 footer album, these > > showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit diesel, plus one of > > the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a nice clean set- > > up. Does anyone have experience with these types of diesels? Speak > > up and tell us what you know! > > > > Alex > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. | 1291|1291|2003-02-03 09:06:52|Jon Richards|PLY DECK AND CABIN TOP ??|Hello All When l began my boatbuilding adventure l looked at all the study plans l could possibly find , l came across a designer here in Australia by the name of Alan Payne he designed a series of steel blue water yachts over many years , his book of plans state that in his opinion the best form of construction was steel hull with ply deck and cabintop having a complete fibreglass/epoxy covering . l can see the many advantages of this idea but have not found a boat constructed this way , l wondered if any members of this group have ?? would this be a good match for an origami hull . l ended up building a multichine Van de Stadt 37 in aluminium which l enjoy very much , however l think the origami boat looks a better and easier boat to build . l wish l had found out about these boats before l started mine !! . jon . Perth W.A. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1292|1291|2003-02-03 15:25:52|jalborey |Re: PLY DECK AND CABIN TOP ??|Jon, To compromise the stiffness and strength of a steel hull with a much weaker material for a deck doesn't seem to me (and to much more knowledgeable people than me) a good idea at all. Besides, there is the problem of joining two materials with completly different physical properties, which react in very different ways to changes in moisture and heat. I do like Payne designs (allthough I much prefer Swain's), but I don't think he is right about this particular recommendation. Regards, Jesús| 1293|1279|2003-02-04 08:18:25|Richard Murray |Re: VW Rabbit engine installation - 'marineizing'|Alex, I searched a bid on the WEB for info but I haven't found very much. There is a company in the UK, that specializes in 'marineizing' (they use s instead of z) small car/truck diesel engines: http://www.lancingmarine.com/ They are very responsive to requests for info. I agree that it would be very nice if anyone in this group who has experience in 'marineizing' such engines would share it with us. Rich Murray North Weymouth MA --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie " wrote: > I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 footer album, these > showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit diesel, plus one of > the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a nice clean set- > up. Does anyone have experience with these types of diesels? Speak > up and tell us what you know! > > Alex | 1294|1294|2003-02-04 12:29:06|Richard Murray |VW rabbit engine|Found the following after doing a search for marinizing VW on google: http://www.geocities.com/seawindtwo.geo/kbase/equipment/engine/engine- gen/engine-gen.html Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 12:02 pm A small but excellent company in Canada called Pathfinder makes marine diesel engines. The smallest is a 55 HP, 4 cylinder unit which uses the block of the VW rabbit engine, German made diesels do have a good reputation. Parts are readily available, the technical manuals superb and assistance from the company tops. We have used the engine now for over 14 years and find it excellent. Fuel consumption is 6/10ths of a gallon at full cruise rpm (6 to 7 knots) which is a smooth 2700 revs. A replacement engine goes for about 2500 US. VW Parts are available world wide, important if leaving the US. Parts can be found in junk yards world wide because the same engine is in the VW rabbit and you don't have to pay marine prices.. So, if anyone is thinking of repowering......| 1295|1295|2003-02-04 14:36:53|Richard Murray |Path Finder & Marinzing|http://www.geocities.com/seawindtwo.geo/kbase/equipment/engine/engine- gen/engine-gen.html Here is the conatct info for Path Finder Marine John Scherer. President (Actually located in Kirkland QC) Pathfinder Marine Inc. P.O. Box 1284, Champlain, NY 12919 (514) 695-6676 FAX (514) 695-1080 E-MAIL pathfndr@... John says that his engine costs 11,900 US. But it would seem that with the availability of VW diesel engines for less than $2,500. US that this should be accomplished for much less. The following passage was copied from the above url. Please go there for additional information. Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 5:01 pm The marinizing project is not one of such technical difficulty if in fact the parts to convert a specific engine are readily available. Generally the areas for conversion are (1) the cooling system requires a heat exchanger to replace the radiator, mountings for raw water pumps, some hose routings and other existing taps blocked or rerouted (2) the engine mounting system is the custom brackets and mounts that are very different from the automotive originals, (3) the exhaust system which requires some attention to protection of the cylinder head from seawater incursion, back pressure preservation and adaptation to a generally larger diameter to include the efficient expulsion of combined exhaust and raw water, (4) the adaptation of the marine gear that requires a special, splined plate with breakaway protection, a specially designed flywheel, a bell hosing to adapt the gear mounting to existing, correspondent bores for the automotive transmission on the block face. Depending upon the specifications of any particular engine, other modifications to head gaskets, valve materials, injection pump timing, oil pump and pan changes to accommodate steeper inclined mountings can increase the scope of the project measurably. Often the actual space requirements and availability, for serviceability, of radical repowering conversions becomes quite an important issue as well. Don has enjoyed quite a successful relationship with his own conversion as well as one with a parts distributor who in all likeyhood stocks all or most of the bolt on bits required to marinize a specific, 55 HP VW engine. If the "kit" is available, most of the bolt on stuff can be done in a weekend. This is almost certainly not the case if the Toyota or a Volvo diesel were chosen for the conversion as these have never been common or commercially available as marinized diesel engines for small boats. In the case of these choices it is probable that most of the conversion parts would have to be custom fabricated at what I presume to be a significantly higher price. Add to that a very predictable increase in labor hours to design the systems, cut templates and attempt to stay within prudent engineering specifications.| 1296|1296|2003-02-04 15:35:31|Alex & Kim Christie|VW diesel engine prices|Wow, $11,900 US is over budget for me, especially considering it is a conversion of an automotive engine. For that price in Canadian dollars I could install a new Isuzu 4 cylinder diesel including gear. However, getting back to VW engines, there is an automotive wrecker (Malahat Auto Parts) on Vancouver Island where I had once priced out a VW diesel engine at only $500. This was a few years ago, so the price may be several hundred higher now. This is still a fairly good bargain for an engine. Brent's system of using the skeg for cooling means no need to buy a heat exhanger, since no raw seawater is involved in the cooling circuit. This could represent some savings in cost. I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? Alex > > John says that his engine costs 11,900 US. But it would seem that > with the availability of VW diesel engines for less than $2,500. US > that this should be accomplished for much less. > | 1297|1296|2003-02-04 15:59:06|Michael Casling|Re: VW diesel engine prices|Alex wrote: I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? Alex I have been hesitant to join this discussion because I did not have anything nice to say. My memory tells me that when they first put the Pathfinder diesel in boats they had problems. The motor is not an industrial strength diesel like the Yanmar, however it may run smoother than a Yanmar. That is the price you pay for the HD motor. A boat motor only has one gear available so a motor that does not have good low end power is going to suffer. You can put on a shallower prop and rev the motor higher but having an engine that requires more than 3000 revs seems a bit silly in a sailboat. You could use an automatic gearbox in your boat and shift gears, this has been done. If I was going to use a diesel I would get an industrial strength model, used and rebuilt if neccessary. I have a 2QM15 Yanmar ( since 1979 ) and just installed new rings, rod bearings and had the valves ground. It is a bit of a pounder as in not the smoothest but with the kind of service it provides I have no complaints. There are used Yanmars, Volvos, Perkins etc available. Replaceable wet sleeves should be a basic requirement in my opinion, that way you can rebuild it forever. My motor will probably run for another 20 years and still be easy to rebuild at that time. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1298|1296|2003-02-04 17:17:07|john blanky|Re: VW diesel engine prices|Hi Alex, Most modern auto engines with poor to adequate maintenance will last beyond 20Ok (my sister had a kcar last a million) which if you conservatively said that it was all at 100kpm thats an average of 2000-10000 hours. I would argue that a prairie winter is severe operating environment well different than a marine environment. My gut says that a auto engine will probably serve quite well. The VW engines are some what under built compared to industrial engines, and are designed to run at a somewhat higher rpm. I was looking for used VW rabbits a couple years ago and the average mileage was 300k and most had more. From this evidence, I would use auto engines. After the initial install if you stayed with the same engine I'd guess you could throw the engine away and replace for less than the equivalent cost of the purchase price and maintenance of the industrial engine. That would be based on used autoengines and my own rebuilds/maintenance. N. --- Alex & Kim Christie wrote: --------------------------------- Wow, $11,900 US is over budget for me, especially considering it is a conversion of an automotive engine. For that price in Canadian dollars I could install a new Isuzu 4 cylinder diesel including gear. However, getting back to VW engines, there is an automotive wrecker (Malahat Auto Parts) on Vancouver Island where I had once priced out a VW diesel engine at only $500. This was a few years ago, so the price may be several hundred higher now. This is still a fairly good bargain for an engine. Brent's system of using the skeg for cooling means no need to buy a heat exhanger, since no raw seawater is involved in the cooling circuit. This could represent some savings in cost. I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? Alex > > John says that his engine costs 11,900 US. But it would seem that with the availability of VW diesel engines for less than $2,500. US that this should be accomplished for much less. > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 1299|1296|2003-02-04 20:35:51|richytill |Re: VW diesel engine prices|Alex, a VW mechanic put me on to the Rabbit diesel. I was thinking about a 3 cyl Isuzu but as this this would cut roughly $10,000 out of the budget, it seemed wise to consider options. The mechanic here is an instructor at our metal shop program and when, in another life, he worked at a VW dealership, he was called to service several VW diesels on boats. All of these motors were working well after several years of use. He points out that used motors can be obtained for $500--$2000. I picked up a clean one for $1000 Can. With the skeg cooling system there is no need for a complex heat exchanger, valve, pump, strainer, pulley, belt arrangement. Apparently, the secret is to run these things at somewhat below volumetric efficiency and have a bomb proof cooling system. The cylinder head can go when the cooling system is not doing it's job. Most importantly though, this is an engine with a long production run. World-wide, there are many of them to glean parts from; or pick up whole engines. Parts are available. Hopefully it will be all hooked up and ready to test in a few weeks. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: > Wow, $11,900 US is over budget for me, especially considering it is a > conversion of an automotive engine. For that price in Canadian dollars I > could install a new Isuzu 4 cylinder diesel including gear. > > However, getting back to VW engines, there is an automotive wrecker (Malahat > Auto Parts) on Vancouver Island where I had once priced out a VW diesel > engine at only $500. This was a few years ago, so the price may be several > hundred higher now. This is still a fairly good bargain for an engine. > > Brent's system of using the skeg for cooling means no need to buy a heat > exhanger, since no raw seawater is involved in the cooling circuit. This > could represent some savings in cost. > > I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is > not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone > think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is > something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain > rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent > torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? > Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? > > Alex > > > > > John says that his engine costs 11,900 US. But it would seem that > > with the availability of VW diesel engines for less than $2,500. US > > that this should be accomplished for much less. > > | 1300|1296|2003-02-04 23:45:42|John Jones|Re: VW diesel engine prices|Oh feces Why not go for the Cat-a-perk.... that's a Cat engine with a perkins block.... we bought a Cat gen-set that had a plaque that reads "block By Perkins" ... It's a very good power plant. John Deere is very good too. ---------- >From: "Alex & Kim Christie" >To: >Subject: [origamiboats] VW diesel engine prices >Date: Tue, Feb 4, 2003, 15:36 > > Wow, $11,900 US is over budget for me, especially considering it is a > conversion of an automotive engine. For that price in Canadian dollars I > could install a new Isuzu 4 cylinder diesel including gear. > > However, getting back to VW engines, there is an automotive wrecker (Malahat > Auto Parts) on Vancouver Island where I had once priced out a VW diesel > engine at only $500. This was a few years ago, so the price may be several > hundred higher now. This is still a fairly good bargain for an engine. > > Brent's system of using the skeg for cooling means no need to buy a heat > exhanger, since no raw seawater is involved in the cooling circuit. This > could represent some savings in cost. > > I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is > not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone > think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is > something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain > rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent > torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? > Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? > > Alex > >> >> John says that his engine costs 11,900 US. But it would seem that >> with the availability of VW diesel engines for less than $2,500. US >> that this should be accomplished for much less. >> > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1301|1301|2003-02-04 23:47:16|T.H. & V.D. Cain|VW diesels --- "marinising" --- components.|Hi all, To add to the VW thread, the following may be of interest: In Europe (late '70s), there were two prominent VW Golf / Rabbit / Jetta off-the-shelf conversions available. One of these was a Dutch job --- I think they called it VW Bootmotor and this was based on the slant mounted 1498cc engine. This unit used the usual cast aluminium exhaust manifold / seawater cooled (shell and tube) heat exchanger in place of the original and an external oil cooler for the engine oil. The latter was found to be necessary since there was no airflow over the sump and this engine had only 3.8 litres of crankcase oil. The transmission was Hurth --- the very reliable servo-clutched HBW series. The other was from the UK and was sold by Hawker-Siddeley / Lister - Petter. Their original unit was called the "Petter Four" and this engine, also the 1498cc slant-mount VW unit, was fitted with a Bowman manifold and a Jabsco belt driven seawater pump (mounted badly, cover removal meant pump removal first!). No oil cooler was supplied with this motor. The transmission was Hurth as above. In the early eighties, another VW unit was released as a Hawker-Siddeley Pirhana P4. This unit was based on the 1588cc unit - vertically arranged -- and was rated: 43bhp @ 4000 rpm for pleasure craft and 35 bhp @ 3000rpm for (continuous) commercial use. This latter British Standard rating implies flywheel output without standard accessories (alternator and seawater pump). The heat exchanger/manifold was/is a Bowman VW150 (still available - at least it was last year on Bowman's web site). This model still had the Jabsco 6490/132 belt driven seawater pump and it was still a pain to change impellors. However, for anyone using this engine, Jabsco has a much better solution in a crankshaft mounted model with direct access to the impellor and better piping arrangement, model no 29440-1001. The transmission was any of the Hurth HBW 150 series, including V drive. For my unit the max reduction available in the in-line gearbox was 2.87 and 2.50 (A and B) directions and you can use either if the prop handing is sorted. These ratios translate to a 500mm dia. prop (mine is a Max Prop and pitch can be adjusted out of the water) The alternator was a 65 amp Bosch. The engine was fitted with a Serck ? oil cooler which was interposed between the original oil filter adaptor plate and the actual filter - needed a smaller (un-desireably so ) oil filter if the engine bearer clearance was to be sensible. On this latter point, I was hunting an oil filter adaptor plate to enable remote mounting of the cooler and filter ( so I could get back up to standard VW filter size) and VW told me that they are developing a true marine diesel (small) right now. If anyone knows of a readily available remote filter adaptor set for this engine, I'd be grateful to hear about it. It is interesting to compare the Pathfinder (USA conversion) of the same era with UK versions. The big rosy-coloured ads showed a black cat atop the engine --- purring - naturally! " This baby eats bubbles " it said - referring to the vane pump in the first stage of the Bosch R type injector pump, and its ability to purge the air from the fuel system without extensive bleeding. Weight was also a big selling point in those days when comparable power plants weighed in at 300+ kg and the VW was less than187 kg all up with transmission. The Pathfinder claimed in excess of 50hp but the ads did not say if this was gross, or net at the shaft. There is no doubt that a 1588cc VW diesel can run up to 5400 rpm and output 52 bhp, but getting that down in RPM and into a sensible diameter prop would be the challenge. A clean 40 ft sailing hull needs about 30 bhp into a sensible sized prop to drive them at hull speed in moderate waves and no wind, and a hard working diesel will last a lot longer than an oversized unit. Perhaps therein lies the clue to the VW Golf / Rabbit long life in the auto - it has to work fairly hard given its output. Not too much risk of glazing the bores because of low load. Keep the BMEP up I say! As I recall, Pathfinder had a much more sensible layout for the seawater pump and a high mounted alternator. My unit still has nil hours (preserved internally) so I cannot comment about the service life, but judging by the reluctance of the VW Golf car owners to part with their engines (as spares for me!), I have no doubt they are a sound proposition. Plenty of photos of the engine and installation in the boat if anyone wants them. I also have all of the associated workshop manuals, engine and gearbox. Terry| 1302|1296|2003-02-05 00:01:09|John Jones|Re: VW diesel engine prices|Ask your local Transport Canada Ship Safety Office or Yer "Local Coast Guard" and quite possibly they could supply the formulae Butt the VW engine is very reliable. ---------- >From: "Michael Casling" >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] VW diesel engine prices >Date: Tue, Feb 4, 2003, 15:55 > > Alex wrote: > I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is > not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone > think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is > something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain > rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent > torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? > Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? > > Alex > > I have been hesitant to join this discussion because I did not have > anything nice to say. My memory tells me that when they first put the > Pathfinder diesel in boats they had problems. The motor is not an > industrial strength diesel like the Yanmar, however it may run smoother > than a Yanmar. That is the price you pay for the HD motor. A boat motor > only has one gear available so a motor that does not have good low end > power is going to suffer. You can put on a shallower prop and rev the motor > higher but having an engine that requires more than 3000 revs seems a bit > silly in a sailboat. You could use an automatic gearbox in your boat and > shift gears, this has been done. If I was going to use a diesel I would get > an industrial strength model, used and rebuilt if neccessary. I have a > 2QM15 Yanmar ( since 1979 ) and just installed new rings, rod bearings and > had the valves ground. It is a bit of a pounder as in not the smoothest but > with the kind of service it provides I have no complaints. There are used > Yanmars, Volvos, Perkins etc available. Replaceable wet sleeves should be a > basic requirement in my opinion, that way you can rebuild it forever. My > motor will probably run for another 20 years and still be easy to rebuild > at that time. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1303|1303|2003-02-05 03:20:55|Alex & Kim Christie|automotive diesels reconsidered|Thanks for all the postings about the marinis(z)ing of diesels. It seems reasonable to conclude that the problems with any engine configuration really lay in the way it is installed, and not in a given engine. In other words, any unit can be properly engineered, given the right parts and know-how. If not done right, the weak link will eventually wreak havoc right when you need the engine the most (in the middle of a narrow passage in a strong current, or on a lee shore, when the engine would be stressed the most). The VW in my boat was never installed properly -- really just cobbled together by the former owner who was looking for a cheap and quick fix, so does not represent a true conversion. I'm going to have to research this type option more. If the parts for conversion are cheap enough and the engineering is sound, it may be a very good proposition, and highly in keeping with a hallowed Swain tradition of doing things yourself without great cost. My first vehicle was a Datsun/Nissan diesel truck and it was the ONLY vehicle I've ever had among many since that never let me down in the engine department despite severe use (even in minus 40 degress Celsius temperatures) and many many kilometres on the odometer. I don't know if success in vehicular use means success in marine use, but it sounds like even a properly converted Nissan diesel would be another contender. I've just had a look online and discovered a conversion company in Finland called Piikkion Venevarustaja which offers conversion kits for over 45 different engines. One kit is called "Sea-Toy" http://www.saunalahti.fi/~seppniem/seatoy_eng.html , for converting a Toyota diesel, and looks pretty comprehensive. Some of the components might not be needed if you were using Brent's skeg-cooling method, so the kit would be slight less than the 1557 Euros price they list. They manufacture bellhousing kits for the Ford 2.3 L diesel, VW Golf, TDI, Passat, Nissan, Mercedes, Peugot, Fiat, etc, to give an idea. My last thought on the subject: Marinising an engine is a great form of education. It strikes me that putting in the work to do your own conversion really would really familiarize you with all the attached systems (pumps, etc) attached to your basic engine. Having this kind of education about your engine would really be handy when you are offshore and having to maintain and repair (or even jury-rig) the engine when no other help is at hand. Alex| 1304|1304|2003-02-05 03:35:36|Mike Graham |Re: Auto diesels converted to marine use.|Just a thought... While living in the Philippines in the early 1990's, I assisted in the building of a 70' fishing "banca". As the owner, I also experienced that period of time between when you think your almost finished and when you finally are(that has to be the worst part of building a boat). Leading the way - in this time of utter frustration - was the problem of propulsion. A proper marine diesel engine w/trans would have doubled the value of the boat. Then you have to add steering, throttle/gear controls, cooling, fuel delivery, & charging/starting systems. I went the "native way", purchasing a used isuzu diesel and having the standard transmission converted to a two speed fwd./one reverse deal(hard to find an auto trans in Asia). As function was the concern, the system was not pretty. A steering column from a car, a foot clutch for the trans, a converted window winder for a throttle, and a gear shift mounted at the helm console - connected to the trans by a six foot long shaft(imagine the throw) - was the final system for taming the isuzu. Long story short; (a) engine alignment/bedding is the most important, most unforgiving part of the job, (b) raw water cooling is cheapest/easiest but corrosion attacks at an amazing rate. Fresh water(keel cooled) is worth the effort, (c) If an auto engine can power a 70' fishboat(loaded with gear, crew, tuna, ice & brine) I see no concern for it to power a 40' steel-hulled sailboat. The fishboat began work in 1992 and is still fishing with the same engine, albeit for the muslim separatist gang whom stole it from me. Remember that with whatever engine you choose to use, the "damn thing" will be the part of the boat that you like the least and sweat over the most. So, don't bother wasting money on expensive marine systems(unless you don't mind wasting money). Your building a sailboat. If you feel the need for an engine, put in the smallest, cheapest "stink-pot" you can. You will, most probably, only use it for mooring purposes and a Yuloh(long chinese oar) can serve that purpose(for the purist). I have found that I have spent most of my "mechanical-maniac moments" on fuel delivery and battery systems. The VW engine will serve the purpose just fine if what you want to do is build a boat to go sailing. For those of you whom are familiar with the B.C. south inter-coastal way, I have sailed my previous 30' sailboat through Porlier Pass(what a rush!), Active Pass(nice whirlpool!) and under the Lion's Gate bridge at 3Nm ebb(it took a VERY long time!) without an engine - not smart, but necessary at the time.| 1305|1305|2003-02-05 08:37:24|T.H. & V.D. Cain|VW 1500 and 1600 diesels.|A few additional specs. for these engines when marinised: *(Oz spelling too!) Minimum idling speed: 1200 rpm Maximum revs.: 5300 - no load, 4500 on load. Maximum torque: 7.786 kgm (57.1 lb ft) @ 4000 rpm Cold start limit temperature: - 22 deg. C. Temperature Ring normal temp 95 (max permissible 120 ) deg. C. Thermostat starts to open: 80 deg. C. (engine uses heat exchanger bypass - recirculating up to this point) Thermostat fully open: 92 deg. C. The back of the head and the pump inlet are fitted with heater connection spigots for hot water take off. Maximum permissible exhaust back pressure: 80mm Hg. Or 1.5 psi Maximum angle for installation (crankshaft line) is 15 deg. Total angle with bow lift ( ref. power craft) not more than 22 deg. Maximum angle of heel + or - 29 deg. Weight of complete unit with lube oil: 176 kg (386 lbs). Single lever control cable loading (shift arm): 15 kg. Fuel consumption estimated @ 4000 rpm 43 bhp : 12.6 l/hr (2.7 Imp gph ---3.33 US gph ) Sump capacity with level engine: 3.5 litres HBW 150 gearbox oil capacity (ATF / Dexron 2 or 3) : 0.56 litre --- not very much! HBW 150 range is unlikely to need the optional heat sinking external bolt-on casing cooler with the VW engine, A shaft brake is not usually needed for HBW boxes as they are rated to be selected in the opposite direction at quite high speed, not a nice thing to do, and so they have an internal preset torque and shock limiting characteristic in their multi-disc servo clutches. Usually enough to hold the average prop when sailing without turning the engine if the ratio is 2:1, or more or you can let them freewheel in neutral if that's what you want --- also not a smart thing to do unless you want to generate electrical power as you sail. They also can accept largish thrust loads on the output flange - angular contact rear bearing. Must use approved coolant with anti-freeze at not less than 40% conc. --- inhibitors must suit aluminium heads. Two thicknesses of head gasket available (if one ever has to lift it) and this is critical since the piston protrusion above the block must be measured to pick the right one to use. If you don't use the right one, one of two things will happen 1. Too thin and the pistons will hit the head which is flat --- that is why this measurement is called "bump clearance"!!! 2. Too thick and you won't have 23:1 compression ratio anymore and this will castrate the engine power and make it quite hard to start. The synthetic timing belt is one of the early cogged-type belts and must be changed at the equivalent of 100 000 km , which I suppose is about 1200 hours? Best to err on the safe side or that tinkle-tinkle sound of the valves hitting pistons will hurt the wallet. Valve clearances are adjusted by shims in buckets under the single OHC --- apparently they rarely need adjusting under 160 000 km., but should be checked at say 500 hour intervals to be sure. Fuel pump calibration for the prop. law load curve is rarely implemented, and the standard Bosch calibration for auto use is OK. The Bosch injector pump will lift fuel up to a point, but a positive head from an elevated day tank is a lot safer way to go. However, do not run the return+spill fuel line back to this day tank if the tank is not big enough and located so that it is able to cool by radiation. Never run the return line back to a tee just ahead of the primary fuel filter or the engine cannot self-bleed, this return line must go to a free surface of fuel in a tank for the elimination of bubbles as well as some heat loss in hot situations. Many years ago in a SE Queensland (Aust.) coastal race, a competitor in a trimaran towed a monohull deep-keeled competitor off a sandbank and out to safety through the rough surf conditions. The trimaran was fitted with a 1488 cc VW diesel. Enough of this VW stuff. Terry| 1306|1306|2003-02-05 10:13:59|Phil S.|Engines for Sail Boats|Hey Gang: Well I have been reading the VW engine discussion with some interest. I am wondering why? I picked up my latest Boats and Harbors paper and in the first few pages are ads for new diesel engines. The Allen Machine Company has a new Yanmar #3TNF74C-EDN for $1900 Dollars. They are rated 23hp Cont and 28hp Max. It comes complete with a #5 bell housing. A few pages later they also advertise a marine gear rated for up to 32hp, one is manual for $499usd and Hydraulic for $995usd. There are lots of other engines advertised through out the publication. I can�t imagine a need for anything larger as and auxiliary in a sailboat. I think everyone should get this newspaper. There are also a couple of unfinished Roberts projects advertised along with a more than a few trawlers. There are more than a few lever chain hoists for what look to be very reasonable prices. My inclination is always to buy a tool rather than rent it. More times than not I spend more on rentals than I would if I just bought the darn thing (with the exception of excavating equipment). Hope I helped Phil __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com| 1307|1306|2003-02-05 15:17:38|Richard Murray |Re: Engines for Sail Boats - Yanmar - 3TNE74C-EDN|Thanks very much Phil, I believe that you are referring to a member of their industrial diesel family. The model number is actually 3TNE74C-EDN. This is the basic industrial engine that would need to be marinized. The price is excellent! The Yanmar master distributor, MackBoring, said that it was about $1,000. less than the normal one-off price; however, he did point out that it is a project to get it working properly in a sailboat. For anyone who is interested, there is a new Kubota engine on ebay for $1,200. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=3309311217&category=26226 and another that came off a Japanese rice harvester for $500. :(. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=2402451178&category=6745 Would you please provide contact infor fo rthe Allen Machine Company. Regards, R --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Hey Gang: > Well I have been reading the VW engine discussion with > some interest. I am wondering why? I picked up my > latest Boats and Harbors paper and in the first few > pages are ads for new diesel engines. The Allen > Machine Company has a new Yanmar #3TNF74C-EDN for > $1900 Dollars. They are rated 23hp Cont and 28hp Max. > It comes complete with a #5 bell housing. A few pages > later they also advertise a marine gear rated for up > to 32hp, one is manual for $499usd and Hydraulic for > $995usd. There are lots of other engines advertised > through out the publication. > > I can't imagine a need for anything larger as and > auxiliary in a sailboat. I think everyone should get > this newspaper. There are also a couple of unfinished > Roberts projects advertised along with a more than a > few trawlers. > > There are more than a few lever chain hoists for what > look to be very reasonable prices. My inclination is > always to buy a tool rather than rent it. More times > than not I spend more on rentals than I would if I > just bought the darn thing (with the exception of > excavating equipment). > > Hope I helped > Phil > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com | 1308|1308|2003-02-05 18:07:19|prairiemaidca |More engines!!|Hi All: Lot's of great info on engines. I'm just starting my cockpit installation so I'm not quite to that stage yet, but I'm on the lookout for power. One engine source that I'm looking at is a used diesel from a Refer system on a transport trailer. Our multitemp refers also are equiped with a very powerful generator as well as the compressor. It would need to have the throttle system changed and a way of addapting a transmission. Any thoughts? Also how about a list of things to be considered when adapting a diesel (non marine version) into a sail boat ??? Martin (Prairie Maid)...| 1309|1308|2003-02-05 19:05:14|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: More engines!!|I almost tried the used Reefer or refer unit (auxiliary engine from a refrigerator truck) route with my liveaboard, and was able to get a Perkins 4-108 for $500 Cdn. The compression was there at first, and it seemed to run okay on its own, so I thought it would be great. Here is where my cautionary tale begins: It turned out to have an odd bell housing and the wrong flywheel to mate to a Borg-Warner gear in the hull, as well as no engine controls at all, since these were of course left in the truck it came from. I began to research the parts for conversion, but at that time (about 6 years ago), it was Detroit-Allison Diesel out of Vancouver who had the rights to distribute Perkins parts, and there I hit a snag. I tried to call them and they were extremely unhelpful, like they couldn't really give a damn -- a very stramge attitude I thought at the time. I just couldn't figure out why they were so reticent about the subject, and of note they never once called me back - it was always me calling them to find out why they didn't call me back evenwhen the said they would. Did they want to sell me these parts or not?? After putting me off for many months, they finally told me they couldn't get the parts. They were the sole source of parts for Perkins at the time, so my conversion process was halted right there. Stumped, and stuck with a $500 engine I couldn't use. I thought something was odd about the situation, and sure enough a few years later I heard through the grapevine that Perkins UK was quite upset with Detroit Diesel for taking on distributorship yet offering no parts support for their engines. In other words, they just wanted to sell the stuff to industry, but took no interest in service and support -- especially not interested in some boat nut tracking down a certain flywheel plus various and sundry bits to get his old wooden boat moving. When Perkins pressed the issue, Detroit got in a huff and took it out on them by being as unhelpful as possible until their contract ran out. This stuff happens in industry - we just don't hear about it in normal civilian life. It must have been very damaging for Perkins in North America -- it certainly queered me on their product, not because Perkins engine are bad (they are popular in the UK), but simply because there would be no technical support, and even getting basics maintenance items would have been like pulling teeth from those slow loruses in Vancouver. As we all know, buying the engine is just the beginning of a long relationship with dealers and parts suppliers. Someone else handles Perkins now, but I had long ago sold the engine (luckily) to someone else who was willing to do a lot of custom machinework to make it work (they had the skills I wish I had and were happy with it). I did the math and realized that a rebuilt Isuzu from Klassen diesel (about $5500 Cdn) would have been a better route, and would save me loads of time running around chasing elusive critical parts that may or may not have even existed on the North American continent. This was pre-internet era for me. I might have been able to source things better had I been tangled in the World Wide Web as I am now, or I may have been able to get the skinny on the politics of that particular engine dealer long before buying the engine itself. I would say that before you buy a refer unit, do these two things: 1) Ensure adequate compression of the cylinders , but beware that compression can be high without a load, then suddenly drop when the engine is made to work hard in your boat, and blow all its pressure right by the worn-out rings. Perhaps this is oily nature of diesel at work, seeming to seal the rings under no load, then revealing the true nature of your pistons when you really try to use the thing. It would be a horrible pitfall to encounter after you've spent thousands converting, plus at least a thousand installing the thing, only to end up hauling it out for a complete rebuild. 2) Ensure adequate dealer support for both your conversion and subsequent maintenance parts. Obviously if the engine core is identical to one used already for marine use, you'll do much better. I don't mean to be down on the refer units or scare you off them-- they might be a good deal; just keep your eyes open and approach it with as much science as possible. Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1310|531|2003-02-05 20:48:25|prairiemaidca |engines|So many things to consider. the possiblility of a rebuilt looks interesting. As we will be headed to Van. Isl. this Sat. we may have to do some exploring if time allows. The refer engine that I was looking into is an isuzu. Tough little units. The abuse they take in our cold winters is amazing. We will be cruising the docks in search of Swains to video again this trip, does anyone have any locations where we can find some. We have costa vida, shinola and a number of others but are always looking for more. The pictures come in very handy out here on the frozen prairie when you are trying to picture something off of the plans. thanks Martin (prairie maid)| 1311|531|2003-02-05 22:26:25|robertgm36 |engines|Guess its my turn to comment on this subject.Totally agree that if you don`t know what Boats& Harbors is you will be glad you found out. In a nutshell ,huge source of industrial , fishing gear not yachty hence not stupid prices.One company - www.adelmans.com sells perkins motors new and used . Parts for perkins are available everywhere and these motors are in boats every part of the world I`ve been to . Having said that I recently picked up a used 50hp Isuzu for US$325.00 . While those deals are not common if you look in enough places and talk to enough people things happen. Marinizing diesel motors has been done as long as fishermen have put motors in boats. It is no mystery although a dealer who would rather sell you a motor might want you to think that . Talk to fishermen if there are any left in your area They often have good leads. Happy hunting. Robert| 1312|1312|2003-02-05 23:10:33|Richard Murray |For really inexpensive and maybe cheap marinized diesel |For really inexpensive and maybe cheap marinized diesel check out this site... http://chinadiesel.com/mrn/Index.htm R| 1313|1313|2003-02-06 05:53:00|edward_stoneuk |Engine story|Here's my engine story: I bought a Daihatsu CLMD 25 engine that was taken out of a lifeboat from a wrecked freighter. It came with the propeller and shaft, throttle and gear lever and controls, control panel, anchor and chain, searchlight, steering wheel and cable its original toolbox and a variety of fittings. I paid £850 for it, about US $1,400. I reckoned that although it was 12 years old it would not have had much use. I found out the name of the agent who quoted, among other things Â¥8094 for the fuel filter element plus handling charges. This worked out at about £45 or US$74! So I thought, well, the engine is probably based on a land based unit and eventually tracked it down to the CL10 1 litre 3 cylinder engine that was in the Daihatsu Charade. I got hold of a workshop manual for it and a fuel filter and some other spares considerably cheaper from auto sources. The engine started well but smoked a bit when the throttle was blipped. This would happen anyway as the fuel injected is increased before the engine can speed up to burn it, but I thought I would have the injectors and compression tested. The diesel engineer recommended replacing the injectors and that the compression was down a bit. He advised that this might be because the engine had not been used regularly recently but that it might improve with use. I thought that, although in general I believe in letting sleeping cogs lie, I would take the head off to have a look before I installed it. A friend, who was a Caterpillar apprentice in a previous life gave a hand and was impressed by the lack of wear in the engine which he said had only between 10 and 100 hours use. The problem was corrosion in the front cylinder caused by condensation sitting around the rings when the piston was resting at its low point for considerable periods. I had that cylinder bored and sleeved and new rings put in. We changed the timing belts and one of the tensioning pulleys, cleaned off the corrosion powder on the aluminium block inside the timing belt case and painted it. One of the teeth on the fibre gear driving the balancing shaft had broken off and the rest were cracked probably by the aluminium corrosion powder building up between them. We replaced this gear. Only a few of the gaskets in the automotive gasket set I bought fitted. The head gasket was 1.4 mm thick instead of 1.3 mm and the rocker cover, sump and rear seal bearing journal gaskets didn't fit. The engine goes well now and is a neat little unit and in due course I will install it in the boat. As I will be using skeg cooling I will probably take off the heat exchanger and use the inbuilt water pump instead of the belt driven salt water pump that it came with. The CLMD 25 is a third of the weight of the SABB 22 hp engine I had originally fancied. I do prefer the feel and noise of a big slow revving engine, especially a two cylinder but the weight and size and cost of spares and remote controls put me off. We went to see a secondhand one it started easily, sounded lovely, but I could turn it over on compression by hand using the flywheel. In general all diesels are reliable and long lasting given clean fuel, air and oil, efficient cooling and provided that they are driven hard enough to stop the bores glazing up. Ted| 1314|1314|2003-02-06 09:09:32|Phil S.|Allen Machine company|Hi: Allen Machine Company is on the web at www.allenmachineco.com but their site doesn't have much on it. They do run 3 or 4 pages worth of ads in B&H's. Adelmans.com is also in B&H's about once a month. They have great prices on new perkins engines and tons of running pull outs, How about a 4-71 for $1800? Neither have the same stuff on their web sites as they advertise in B&H. I guess you would have to contact them. Adelmans' even has winches for $250-$500usd. I may drive down and see what they look like but if I can buy a hydraulic winch, that would fit on the bow, for $500, I won't bother making one. Like I said everyone that is serious about building a boat should subscribe to boats and harbors, http://www.boats-and-harbors.com/ it is only $21 a year for 3 isues a month. I enjoy the heck out of reading it and day dreaming about converting some tug or fishing boat to a liveabord. Unfortunately none of them would fit into my criteria for a 4'6" draft. I also couldn't afford to buy the fuel for them, LOL. There is always a huge selection of "shippy" boat gear that would be perfect for what we want to build. Well I hope I helped. Thanks Phil __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com| 1315|1315|2003-02-06 11:07:57|rbyzitter2001 |Engines.|Hello, Speaking of engines, I have a 3 cyl. "marinized" 3LB1 Isuzu. I have been saving it but as I am no closer to a hull than I was last year, I will sell this one. It has 800hrs on it since new. A key start panel on a 12' harness, tach, hour meter, oil pressure and water temp gauges. It has a SAE #5/7.5 flywheel and housing which is a standard back end to adapt to a marine transmission. It is rated at 25hp/3000 rpm. I have a picture file on my desktop and have created a folder in the files section but for the life of me can not figure out how to place my photos into that file. Cheers.| 1316|1315|2003-02-06 11:36:13|rbyzitter2001 |Engines.|In regards to the Japanese rice harvester, Kubota diesel possibly. It will not have an actuall fresh water pump as it is convection cooled.| 1317|22|2003-02-06 15:53:15|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Marine 3LB1/DSCF0010.JPG Uploaded by : rbyzitter2001 Description : You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Marine%203LB1/DSCF0010.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, rbyzitter2001 | 1318|1315|2003-02-06 15:56:48|rbyzitter2001 |Engines.|OK, I figured it out. the photos are in files/MArine 3LB. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Marine%203LB1/ Cheers.| 1319|1319|2003-02-06 17:31:04|prairiemaidca |looking for Swains|Betty and I will be leaving the Edmonton area this Sat.am and will be at Cobble Hill Sat. night. We will also at sometime that week make it as far as Campbell river. We have an invite and phone # for Silas Crossby. I have some still photos of the exterior of Moon Raven and I'm always looking for others. What price range do rebuilts from Klasssen's fall into? I saw one(New) at the boat show a few years ago, and it was quite expensive.. (Prairie Maid) is the 36ft. Model... Martin...| 1320|1320|2003-02-07 00:41:00|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Last gasp on VW diesels.|It was late and I was tired, so there are the excuses and the error corrections follow: VW Golf original engine size: 1471cc not 1498 VW Golf original engine 1471cc power: 37 kW / 50bhp @ 5000 rpm. - Max torque 82 Nm / 56.5 lbs ft @ 3000 rpm VW Golf original engine 1471cc max. rpm 5500 to 5600 rpm VW Golf original engine 1471cc compression ratio 23.5 to 1 VW Golf original engine 1471cc idling speed 770 to 870 rpm (Bosch pump) VW Golf and Jetta engine 1588cc power: 40 Kw / 54 bhp @ 4800 rpm - Max torque 100 Nm / 73.8 lbs ft @ 2300 rpm VW Golf and Jetta engine 1588cc compression ratio 23 to 1. VW Golf and Jetta engine 1588cc idling speed: 920 to 970 if fuel pump is Bosch marked 068 130 107J , all others 800 to 850 The Hawker-siddeley Pirhana manual has mixed the specs from the Petter 4 (1471 cc) and the Pirhana (1588 cc) and I was looking at their manual when typing the original note - the above figures come from the engine workshop manuals and make more sense if one is not half asleep. Sorry for the earlier errors. Terry| 1321|1321|2003-02-07 20:52:08|Alex & Kim Christie|sails and rig for sale|Dear Group, I've come across a complete set of rigging, including 3 sails, which might be a good fit for a 36 footer, from Al Maxwell, from the Vancouver area, and thought I'd pass it along to anyone who may be interested. Here is the information in his own words: -Alex ___________________________________________________________________________ I am selling the rigging for the 36 foot trimaran whose name used to be Lightwaves. She was a Vagabond II, built in 1977 from marine ply and fibreglass. Included in the rigging is a 45 foot wooden mast in excellent condition, with self-furling (I think) forestay, a backstay, an aluminum boom and shrouds. Included in the sale are a genoa and a main sail in very good condition, orginal equipment, full battening on the main, and a storm sail (never used). The rigging includes the turnbuckles. All wire is swaged heavy duty SS. I am asking $2500 for the lot, will not currently sell in pieces. The boat was destroyed at Sea-Tec Marine at Shelter Island Marina over the season's holiday. I took from it the parts I needed for a reconstruction project involving the sloop in my backyard. Lightwaves had been suffering from inattention for a year, and had developed mould and water damage due to a below waterline hole in the port pontoon and water leakage through the bow in the main compartment. I salvaged and have sold other bits and pieces, still have a couple of large winches. From the sloop I am reconstructing, I have a 4 cylinder Palmer marine gas engine for sale. A SS tank is available for sale, although its looking like I might want to put it back in for the diesel I've now been plumbing in to the sloop. Its running well, good compression in all cylinders. Funny old transmission attached. I'd say this motor is original with the sloop, which is 40 years old. Easy to work gas engine. Advertised at $1100 in various places, will take less. This weekend one could see much of what I have for sale. The mast unfortunately can be viewed only on weekdays for now, since it is in lockup on a commercial site to which I have no access, but the rest can be seen at my home in White Rock and at the farm in Ladner. Please call if you are a serious buyer only. (604)538-6296| 1322|1321|2003-02-07 21:24:05|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: sails and rig for sale|I forgot to add, Al Maxwell can be reached via e-mail at amaxwell@...| 1323|1321|2003-02-10 15:07:23|Richard Till|Re: sails and rig for sale|Alex, I checked this mast; it's 38' not 45'. The base has signs of de-lamination. The sails may work for a 31' ? rt >From: "Alex & Kim Christie" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [origamiboats] sails and rig for sale >Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:51:51 -0800 > >Dear Group, > >I've come across a complete set of rigging, including 3 sails, which might >be a good fit for a 36 footer, from Al Maxwell, from the Vancouver area, >and >thought I'd pass it along to anyone who may be interested. Here is the >information in his own words: >-Alex > >___________________________________________________________________________ >I am selling the rigging for the 36 foot trimaran whose name used to be >Lightwaves. She was a Vagabond II, built in 1977 from marine ply and >fibreglass. Included in the rigging is a 45 foot wooden mast in excellent >condition, with self-furling (I think) forestay, a backstay, an aluminum >boom and shrouds. Included in the sale are a genoa and a main sail in very >good condition, orginal equipment, full battening on the main, and a storm >sail (never used). The rigging includes the turnbuckles. All wire is >swaged >heavy duty SS. I am asking $2500 for the lot, will not currently sell in >pieces. > >The boat was destroyed at Sea-Tec Marine at Shelter Island Marina over the >season's holiday. I took from it the parts I needed for a reconstruction >project involving the sloop in my backyard. Lightwaves had been suffering >from inattention for a year, and had developed mould and water damage due >to >a below waterline hole in the port pontoon and water leakage through the >bow >in the main compartment. I salvaged and have sold other bits and pieces, >still have a couple of large winches. > >From the sloop I am reconstructing, I have a 4 cylinder Palmer marine gas >engine for sale. A SS tank is available for sale, although its looking >like >I might want to put it back in for the diesel I've now been plumbing in to >the sloop. Its running well, good compression in all cylinders. Funny old >transmission attached. I'd say this motor is original with the sloop, >which >is 40 years old. Easy to work gas engine. Advertised at $1100 in various >places, will take less. > >This weekend one could see much of what I have for sale. The mast >unfortunately can be viewed only on weekdays for now, since it is in lockup >on a commercial site to which I have no access, but the rest can be seen >at >my home in White Rock and at the farm in Ladner. Please call if you are a >serious buyer only. (604)538-6296 > > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail| 1324|1321|2003-02-10 17:21:31|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: sails and rig for sale|Thanks for checking the mast out Richard -- did you happen to see the sails and were they any good? The owner thought it might have roller furling too? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Till To: Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sails and rig for sale > Alex, I checked this mast; it's 38' not 45'. The base has signs of > de-lamination. The sails may work for a 31' ? rt > > > > > > > >From: "Alex & Kim Christie" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: [origamiboats] sails and rig for sale > >Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:51:51 -0800 > > > >Dear Group, > > > >I've come across a complete set of rigging, including 3 sails, which might > >be a good fit for a 36 footer, from Al Maxwell, from the Vancouver area, > >and > >thought I'd pass it along to anyone who may be interested. Here is the > >information in his own words: > >-Alex > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > >I am selling the rigging for the 36 foot trimaran whose name used to be > >Lightwaves. She was a Vagabond II, built in 1977 from marine ply and > >fibreglass. Included in the rigging is a 45 foot wooden mast in excellent > >condition, with self-furling (I think) forestay, a backstay, an aluminum > >boom and shrouds. Included in the sale are a genoa and a main sail in very > >good condition, orginal equipment, full battening on the main, and a storm > >sail (never used). The rigging includes the turnbuckles. All wire is > >swaged > >heavy duty SS. I am asking $2500 for the lot, will not currently sell in > >pieces. > > > >The boat was destroyed at Sea-Tec Marine at Shelter Island Marina over the > >season's holiday. I took from it the parts I needed for a reconstruction > >project involving the sloop in my backyard. Lightwaves had been suffering > >from inattention for a year, and had developed mould and water damage due > >to > >a below waterline hole in the port pontoon and water leakage through the > >bow > >in the main compartment. I salvaged and have sold other bits and pieces, > >still have a couple of large winches. > > > >From the sloop I am reconstructing, I have a 4 cylinder Palmer marine gas > >engine for sale. A SS tank is available for sale, although its looking > >like > >I might want to put it back in for the diesel I've now been plumbing in to > >the sloop. Its running well, good compression in all cylinders. Funny old > >transmission attached. I'd say this motor is original with the sloop, > >which > >is 40 years old. Easy to work gas engine. Advertised at $1100 in various > >places, will take less. > > > >This weekend one could see much of what I have for sale. The mast > >unfortunately can be viewed only on weekdays for now, since it is in lockup > >on a commercial site to which I have no access, but the rest can be seen > >at > >my home in White Rock and at the farm in Ladner. Please call if you are a > >serious buyer only. (604)538-6296 > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1325|1325|2003-02-11 13:00:06|Phil S. |Tug Plans|In Brent's book he mentions a friend of his that built a tug boat using the origami building method. I know Brent is out on the water but would a plans of that boat be available? Thanks Phil| 1326|1321|2003-02-11 16:55:29|Richard Till|Re: sails and rig for sale|Alex, sails would be too small for 36 footer I think--but didn't see them. could be OK for 31'. rt >From: "Alex & Kim Christie" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sails and rig for sale >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:22:06 -0800 > >Thanks for checking the mast out Richard -- did you happen to see the sails >and were they any good? The owner thought it might have roller furling too? > >Alex > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Richard Till >To: >Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 12:07 PM >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sails and rig for sale > > > > Alex, I checked this mast; it's 38' not 45'. The base has signs of > > de-lamination. The sails may work for a 31' ? rt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Alex & Kim Christie" > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >To: > > >Subject: [origamiboats] sails and rig for sale > > >Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:51:51 -0800 > > > > > >Dear Group, > > > > > >I've come across a complete set of rigging, including 3 sails, which >might > > >be a good fit for a 36 footer, from Al Maxwell, from the Vancouver >area, > > >and > > >thought I'd pass it along to anyone who may be interested. Here is the > > >information in his own words: > > >-Alex > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________________________ > > >I am selling the rigging for the 36 foot trimaran whose name used to be > > >Lightwaves. She was a Vagabond II, built in 1977 from marine ply and > > >fibreglass. Included in the rigging is a 45 foot wooden mast in >excellent > > >condition, with self-furling (I think) forestay, a backstay, an >aluminum > > >boom and shrouds. Included in the sale are a genoa and a main sail in >very > > >good condition, orginal equipment, full battening on the main, and a >storm > > >sail (never used). The rigging includes the turnbuckles. All wire is > > >swaged > > >heavy duty SS. I am asking $2500 for the lot, will not currently sell >in > > >pieces. > > > > > >The boat was destroyed at Sea-Tec Marine at Shelter Island Marina over >the > > >season's holiday. I took from it the parts I needed for a >reconstruction > > >project involving the sloop in my backyard. Lightwaves had been >suffering > > >from inattention for a year, and had developed mould and water damage >due > > >to > > >a below waterline hole in the port pontoon and water leakage through >the > > >bow > > >in the main compartment. I salvaged and have sold other bits and >pieces, > > >still have a couple of large winches. > > > > > >From the sloop I am reconstructing, I have a 4 cylinder Palmer marine >gas > > >engine for sale. A SS tank is available for sale, although its looking > > >like > > >I might want to put it back in for the diesel I've now been plumbing in >to > > >the sloop. Its running well, good compression in all cylinders. Funny >old > > >transmission attached. I'd say this motor is original with the sloop, > > >which > > >is 40 years old. Easy to work gas engine. Advertised at $1100 in >various > > >places, will take less. > > > > > >This weekend one could see much of what I have for sale. The mast > > >unfortunately can be viewed only on weekdays for now, since it is in >lockup > > >on a commercial site to which I have no access, but the rest can be >seen > > >at > > >my home in White Rock and at the farm in Ladner. Please call if you >are >a > > >serious buyer only. (604)538-6296 > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1327|1327|2003-02-11 17:53:12|jonhackett44 |Ready to start the hull...|Hey gang, After a few fits and starts, I've ordered the steel and have a spot to build my 36' bilgekeeler. I'm starting on my hull next weekend and I'll be posting pics as she comes together. A few questions for you welders out there... I have a Miller 251 and I intend to use it for most of my weld up. I've been told by the steel crew at Western Towboat that 70XXseries wire is the way to go. Thoughts? Also, their opinion is that the backstep method will go a long way toward eliminating a lot of distortion. You guys agree? Are there critical seams to be aware of? Any experienced help would be great! Thanks, Jon| 1328|1325|2003-02-11 19:53:53|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Tug Plans|Phil, I'll e-mail Evan Shaler and ask him if he knows about the tug. Brent would probably encourage you to take the design of a tug hull you like the look of that has the performance characteristics you seek and play around with card paper to flesh out a similar shape. He has always said that if you can make it fit with the card paper, it should go together in steel too. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 10:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Tug Plans > In Brent's book he mentions a friend of his that built a tug boat using the > origami building method. I know Brent is out on the water but would a plans of > that boat be available? > Thanks > Phil > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1329|1329|2003-02-12 05:38:05|johnkupris@aol.com|what is card paper?|I'm probably the only person who does not know! John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1330|1327|2003-02-12 09:13:59|Paul Faulkner|Re: Ready to start the hull...|I am in the process of the final weld-up of a 29', semi-displacement, power boat. The hull plating is 10 ga, the chine bars are 1/2" round, and the keel/stem is 3/8" flat bar. I am using transverse and longitudinal frames. All of my welding has been done with .035 and .045 Lincoln wire in the 70XX series. Wonderful wire. 99% of the inside welding is done. I have been careful to move around quite a bit while welding and only welding 3" at a time. Nevertheless, I do have one area of distortion. It's very small and one of those things that a builder frets about, but nobody else is likely to notice. It occurred at the chine in an area where there was more of a gap between the plate and chine bar than there probably should have been. My attempt to fill the gap with weld metal rather than a piece of metal probably caused the distortion. Butt seams are another area where I encountered some unexpected problems. They contracted longitudinally more than I thought they would. This distorted the longs a bit (pulled them into a minor s-shape), but the plating still appears fair enough. This is my first steel boat and I'm not a professional welder. If I had it to do over, I'd be more careful about gaps at butts and at the chine. If I had done that, I probably could have eliminated the very small amount of distortion that I do have. Nevertheless, I'm very happy with my results so far. Check out the Metal Boat Society's web site. They have tons of information, knowledgable moderators and a lot of experienced people that participate in the forum. The site is very well-organized and many of the topics listed have several thoughtful replies in their thread, so it's best to look around and see if you can find what you want/need before just posting an open question. Hope this helps. Good luck! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: jonhackett44 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Ready to start the hull... Hey gang, After a few fits and starts, I've ordered the steel and have a spot to build my 36' bilgekeeler. I'm starting on my hull next weekend and I'll be posting pics as she comes together. A few questions for you welders out there... I have a Miller 251 and I intend to use it for most of my weld up. I've been told by the steel crew at Western Towboat that 70XXseries wire is the way to go. Thoughts? Also, their opinion is that the backstep method will go a long way toward eliminating a lot of distortion. You guys agree? Are there critical seams to be aware of? Any experienced help would be great! Thanks, Jon To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1331|1329|2003-02-12 13:37:35|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: what is card paper?|Regarding card paper, I was refering to any thick paper that is stiff enough to make models out of, but easy to trim with a sharp knife or scissors. "Bristol board" is another word for a very thick stiff paper. Corrugated cardboard (as from boxes) may behave oddly when bent certain ways, so I'd avoid it, but not all cardboard is alike. Basically anything that mimics the behaviour of sheet steel would work fine (acts the same when bent in any direction). Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 2:37 AM Subject: [origamiboats] what is card paper? > I'm probably the only person who does not know! John > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1332|1332|2003-02-12 15:10:48|Goodnatured|Re: Ready to Start the Hull|Paul, What is the name/source of the design for your hull? Doug Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:26:15 -0700 From: "Paul Faulkner" Subject: Re: Ready to start the hull... I am in the process of the final weld-up of a 29', semi-displacement, power boat. ... snip ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 1333|1332|2003-02-12 15:52:31|Paul Faulkner|Re: Ready to Start the Hull|It's called the Coastal Cruiser. See http://www.boatdesigns.com/. I made an additional transverse frame and stretched it to 29'. I also alterred the gunwhales so that the sides do not turn in at the top. ----- Original Message ----- From: Goodnatured To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] RE: Ready to Start the Hull Paul, What is the name/source of the design for your hull? Doug Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 07:26:15 -0700 From: "Paul Faulkner" Subject: Re: Ready to start the hull... I am in the process of the final weld-up of a 29', semi-displacement, power boat. ... snip ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1334|1329|2003-02-13 07:00:23|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: what is card paper?|Thank you very much the explination, it was worth persuing as I have made patterns of parts with everything but card paper. John Kupris [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1335|1329|2003-02-13 14:35:52|John Jones|Re: what is card paper?|Hey ...all I use is file folders, they keep things on a smaller scale... less waste. ---------- >From: johnkupris@... >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] what is card paper? >Date: Thu, Feb 13, 2003, 7:00 > > Thank you very much the explination, it was worth persuing as I have made > patterns of parts with everything but card paper. John Kupris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1336|1314|2003-02-14 18:47:38|Richard Murray |Re: Boats and Harbors|Thanks very much for the information on Boats and Harbors. I received my first edition yesterday and your right - its packed with products new, used, some useful and others just entertaining to read about. I am sure that it will prove to be a great source for my nautical needs. Because of the 36 editions per year and my random access filng system, my wife made me promise to take them to work on receipt. It has already proven to be quite popular there also. Regrads, Rich --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Hi: > Allen Machine Company is on the web at > www.allenmachineco.com but their site doesn't have > much on it. They do run 3 or 4 pages worth of ads in > B&H's. Adelmans.com is also in B&H's about once a > month. They have great prices on new perkins engines > and tons of running pull outs, How about a 4-71 for > $1800? Neither have the same stuff on their web sites > as they advertise in B&H. I guess you would have to > contact them. Adelmans' even has winches for > $250-$500usd. I may drive down and see what they look > like but if I can buy a hydraulic winch, that would > fit on the bow, for $500, I won't bother making one. > Like I said everyone that is serious about building a > boat should subscribe to boats and harbors, > http://www.boats-and-harbors.com/ it is only $21 a > year for 3 isues a month. I enjoy the heck out of > reading it and day dreaming about converting some tug > or fishing boat to a liveabord. Unfortunately none of > them would fit into my criteria for a 4'6" draft. I > also couldn't afford to buy the fuel for them, LOL. > There is always a huge selection of "shippy" boat gear > that would be perfect for what we want to build. > Well I hope I helped. > Thanks > Phil > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com | 1337|1337|2003-02-17 18:46:13|philipsparr |Questions: Building|Hello Everyone, This is my first posting on this group site. I have been reading through the old messages and have bought and read through Brent's book. I have a few questions for anyone who has built one of his designs: The origami method seems like a user friendly building tecnique and most people who have posted on this site seem to have had good results. I'd be interested, however, to hear about any serious problems anyone has had while building, what the cause was, and how it was fixed. What concerns me is the matching of the long welded seems in the hull; has anyone had trouble with distortion keeping the seems from coming together properly? Is this just not a problem? I'm also curious about the building plans; from Brent's book it looks like some parts are custom fit to the boat, the cabin sides for example, while others are taken off patterns from the building plans. Are patterns given for the foredeck and side decks?,the hull would then be pulled in to fit these, or is the hull pulled in to the specified beam and the decks fitted to it? From the book it sounds like the first method, but I'm not sure. If it is the first way has anyone had trouble with the hull fitting the side deck? I appreciate any responses to these questions. Philip Sparr| 1338|1338|2003-02-17 19:12:41|philipsparr |Questions: Sailing characteristics|Hello again, I've only seen a few mentions of the sailing characteristics of these boats in the old messages, I'd like to hear more comments about their pros and cons. Are the boats stiff or initially tender untill they get heeled over a bit? I have an alberg 30 so am wondering how they might compare. How close on the wind can the boats sail? 40 deg., 50deg.? What sail combination works the best for heaving-to on these boats? How does the boat lay while hove-to? Do these designs have excessive weather helm or are they well balanced? I've seen comments about their good directional stability but would like to hear any other testimonials. Does anyone think the boats are over or under powered? I appreciate responses to any of my questions, thanks. Philip Sparr| 1339|1339|2003-02-19 19:20:01|jeff outz |building times and prices|hi, i was wondering how long it would take to build a 26-30 footer, and what the projected costs would be. i have several friends in the sheetmetal business, so that would help me out, but would it be cheaper to build in wood, or fiberglass. any thoughts would be helpful, thx| 1340|1339|2003-02-19 19:20:38|jeff outz |building times and prices|hi, i was wondering how long it would take to build a 26-30 footer, and what the projected costs would be. i have several friends in the sheetmetal business, so that would help me out, but would it be cheaper to build in wood, or fiberglass. any thoughts would be helpful, thx| 1341|1339|2003-02-19 19:36:06|Gary H. Lucas|Re: building times and prices|Go to Bruce Roberts site and take a look at one of his kits. Look at the hundreds of beautifully laser cut pieces that go in to making a hull a deck. Think about the thousands of welds needed to put all those pieces together. Then consider the fact that the hull and deck are the EASY part, its fitting all the rest of the stuff that takes all the time. Consider that wood or fiberglass would take even longer and require much greater skill. Before you despair though, go to the pictures on the Yahoo origami page and print out the sequence of pictures of the guy building a Brent Swain hull in a field with sophisticated equipment like a cutting torch, a couple of come-a-longs and a few very important logs. Marvel at the simplicity of what he is doing, and how quickly he gets it done. Do not forget though, a boat, any boat, is a HUGE project. I have talked to people that have taken 7 to 10 years to complete their boat, even one of Brents. Anything that takes more than a few months often gets interrupted by little unimportant things, like family, work, life, the usual distractions. On the other hand some of the Brent Swain boats have been completed and were in the water sailing after just a few months. If I were a betting man I'd bet against you EVER completing most of the boat designs out there. I'd also bet that the junkyards would give me good odds on winning that bet too. I'd say Brent's major accomplishment is in getting more people into the win column than almost any other boat designer. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 7:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] building times and prices > hi, > i was wondering how long it would take to build a 26-30 footer, and > what the projected costs would be. i have several friends in the > sheetmetal business, so that would help me out, but would it be > cheaper to build in wood, or fiberglass. any thoughts would be > helpful, thx > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1342|1342|2003-02-20 12:00:48|Phil S. |Origami Troller Yacht?|Hi Gang, I just posted a picture of a French Strongall frameless Yacht. I don't see why Brent's style of building couldn't be used to build something similar. Apparently there are two different styles of top sides for this hull. I personally like the smaller aft wheel house version. These designs come with two 50hp BMW diesels. Supposedly it runs at 7 knots using less than a gallon an hour. I have been working on a plan in Vectorworks on my lunch hour so when it is done I will post it and see what the group thinks. Thanks Phil| 1343|1342|2003-02-20 12:45:08|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Origami Troller Yacht?|Phil, What name are the photos posted under? I couldn't find them. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Troller Yacht? > Hi Gang, > I just posted a picture of a French Strongall frameless Yacht. I don't see why > Brent's style of building couldn't be used to build something similar. > > Apparently there are two different styles of top sides for this hull. > > I personally like the smaller aft wheel house version. These designs come > with two 50hp BMW diesels. Supposedly it runs at 7 knots using less than a > gallon an hour. I have been working on a plan in Vectorworks on my lunch > hour so when it is done I will post it and see what the group thinks. > Thanks > Phil > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1344|1342|2003-02-20 13:38:45|Phil S. |Re: Origami Troller Yacht?|I posted them in the Files section in a folder named Origami TrollerYacht. thanks phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Phil, > What name are the photos posted under? I couldn't find them. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 12:00 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Troller Yacht? > > > > Hi Gang, > > I just posted a picture of a French Strongall frameless Yacht. I don't see > why > > Brent's style of building couldn't be used to build something similar. > > > > Apparently there are two different styles of top sides for this hull. > > > > I personally like the smaller aft wheel house version. These designs come > > with two 50hp BMW diesels. Supposedly it runs at 7 knots using less than a > > gallon an hour. I have been working on a plan in Vectorworks on my lunch > > hour so when it is done I will post it and see what the group thinks. > > Thanks > > Phil > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > | 1345|1342|2003-02-20 14:15:20|jalborey |Re: Origami Troller Yacht?|Phil, Where did you post the picture? Thanks, Jesús| 1346|1346|2003-02-20 14:46:54|Phil S. |Pictures|Here they are; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/OrigamiTrolleryacht/ I really like this design. Looks like it's only downfall is the small rudders and twin engines. I like the layout, and like the concept. It looks like it could be used in the canals of France and still be a comfortable Ocean crosser. Now I need to figure out how to build one. Thanks phil| 1347|1339|2003-02-21 12:07:18|timothyennuinet |Re: building times and prices|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Before you despair though, go to the pictures on the Yahoo origami page and > print out the sequence of pictures of the guy building a Brent Swain hull in > a field with sophisticated equipment like a cutting torch, a couple of > come-a-longs and a few very important logs. Marvel at the simplicity of > what he is doing, and how quickly he gets it done. This is the thing, the real ticket. With the Origami design, it is all about simplicity in design, construction and execution. And I really don't think there is ANY other hull form which can be tossed up with so few man hours. Except maybe a plywood Dory based hull, which I would think would be about 10% longer. But the Origami hull is an order of Magnitude less time than almost all other hulls to complete. > > Do not forget though, a boat, any boat, is a HUGE project. I have talked to > people that have taken 7 to 10 years to complete their boat, even one of > Brents. Anything that takes more than a few months often gets interrupted > by little unimportant things, like family, work, life, the usual > distractions. Aye. Any long term project filled with hours of labor and this happens often. Really, you have to be a bit obsessed to even contemplate the thing, and a LOT obsessed to finish it quickly. You HAVE to be willing to put the boat as your #1 (yes NUMBER ONE) priority in life while it is being built, otherwise it will take many years to build, and then you will lose steam and interest, and.. well you and I both have seen those 1/2 completed boats out there. Don't even think about building a medium sized or larger boat unless you have spousal support.. yes that means she is sawing, welding and working next to you at least part of the time. Or perhaps she is sewing and painting. Whatever her proclivities, she had better be involved, otherwise the boat becomes 'competition' for your time, and not a joint, life orientated project. When that happens, you start getting 'Honey Dos' out the yin yang, and start getting yelled at for spending so much time on 'That Damned Boat(tm)'. >On the other hand some of the Brent Swain boats have been > completed and were in the water sailing after just a few months. Nice! bet these were under 30 feet though ;) >If I were > a betting man I'd bet against you EVER completing most of the boat designs > out there. >I'd also bet that the junkyards would give me good odds on > winning that bet too. Yes yes and yep. I've got a Fin that says yer right ;) >I'd say Brent's major accomplishment is in getting > more people into the win column than almost any other boat designer. I think this may be an overstatement.. I mean, look at Phil Bolger and George Buehler. I think Brent's designs are definitely in the top 10 of this list though, for certain. Ok all of this being said, to try to answer the fellow's question that he originally posed, there is no real estimate that we can make for the total cost of building your boat. It is true that it will be cheaper to build in origami steel than almost all other methods, so you can at least use that as a guide. The cost difference of various boats usually, though, lies more in their fitting out than the hull costs. In other words, if you go simple and small, it will cost you much less than if you go complex and small. You can spend $30,000, or you can spend $250,000.. on the same boat. It's all about what you want in terms of xtras and how you equip the boat. Why, I could spend $50,000 just on navigation and radar. Or I could spend $1000. Both will get me there, but I just won't have fancy color displays with the cheaper one. If I buy a used diesel at a swap meet, or a shiny new one.. if I use regular plywood or Mahagony.. if I cover the sole in Teak and Holly, or white pine. All of these choices will affect how much you spend on your boat. My advice? Buy Brent's book. If you like the concepts, pick a design and send away to Brent for a study plan and material list. Its a small investment in time and money that might save you years of pain later. --T PS: At the end of the day this is YOUR project. You have to decide what YOU want to do and what you are happy with. If that means you want to be in a fancy, reverse curve wineglass hull, then that's what you should do. But just make sure you understand what you are getting into!!!| 1348|1348|2003-02-22 11:54:43|prairiemaidca |Building time and costs|Hi All: I would definitly concur, there is really no set limits on how little or much time and or money one could use up on a project of this size. My own experience so far has been one of many ups and downs. Even though I knew that it would take a long time to see any real tangible results it still gets you down some days when you go out to the boat shed and see just how slow the work goes. People stop by and are amazed by the sheer size of what is being built but like anything else, when you are working around it for along time you loose that perspective. I guess the bottom line is, if you think of it as anything but a labour of love then you will probably fail if you are doing it as a long term project. Right now it's -20 outside and lots of snow on the ground so insted of spending this sat. morning finishing the cockpit installation I'll just have to shovel snow. That's just how it is for those on the prairie who don't have a heated shop to build in. I'm sure everyone who ever undertakes one of these types of jobs no matter where, will come up against there own particular set of problems to deal with.. Enjoy the work when you can and the rest will take care of it's self. As for a familly that is supportive, I don't think you would want to tackle a project this big without their approval and hopefully their help... All the best to those who try.. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid) P.S. How about a list on the site of all the boats and builders who did succeed, and actually put a boat in the water?? There must be getting to be quite a few by now....M.| 1349|1348|2003-02-22 19:01:09|downdeep1968 |Re: Building time and costs|I believe that if you read Brent's book you would find that he says he has put together a boat in as little as a week. I am sure that there were not alot of creature comforts installed but this brings up the question of what do you have & what do you need or want. I have been planning on building my own boat for several years now. Since I first started sailing many years I could just not understand why someone would want to spend huge dollars on a boat and be unhappy that it's not exactly what you wanted. You can spent as little or as much as you want to on your boat. The question is what do you need? The wife and I spent hours looking at plans on-line, looking at plans that friends had and walking all the docks in every marina to look at and discuss what we saw and liked and disliked. It came to a quick conclusion that the only way we were going to get what we wanted was to build it. This brings up many questions that you must ask before even ordering the plans. 1) Can I do this? Do you have this skills to perform all the welding, wood working, electrical - 12volt and 110, plumbing and painting. Not having the skill to perform any of the above tasks would mean having to hire a professional or call on some of your boating friends who do. 2) Do I have the space to do this? Building a boat requires a site that is large enough for you to be able to move around the entire hull. Should the hull not be covered by some roof of sorts the building time will increase dramatically unless you live somewhere of fair weather. 3) How far away is the site? The longer the drive to your building site the less time you will have on the boat. 4) Electricity? Building a boat requires several tools. At some point in time if not all the time you will need electric service to run various tools or lighting for the hull. 5) The most important question to ask is...support? For those of us who's captain makes the decisions with you, having their support and help will make the job go alot faster and easier. :o) Once all these questions have been asked and answered then you are ready to start. Starting to build your boat does mean that you have to order the steal and get ready to cut as soon as it arrives. Many things can be pre-ordered or even purchased before you start building. The more that you have done before you start the better off you will be and the faster the project will be to finish. I see all the time hulls for sale in our local rag of partially completed hulls and refits that are partially done. Having said all that, your now wondering if you should even start at all? Make your plans and make them carefully. Start or you may never finish. I was once told by a very wise man (my father) that once you give up your dream you start to die. I would rather die trying to get to my dream than never having the courage to start it at all. Pull all your friends in and all those favors you have out there and start to build your dream!| 1350|1350|2003-02-23 15:55:21|Alex & Kim Christie|tug hull in Origami|Group, I am forwarding this message I got from Evan Shaler regarding the question about other kinds of boat in origami technique, specificallly the tugboat hull. Here then is my original question and Evan's comments on the subject: ----- Original Message ----- From: evan shaler To: Alex & Kim Christie Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: tug hull in Origami? > > --- Alex & Kim Christie wrote: > > Hi Evan, > > > > Someone on the Origamiboats list asked about the > > origami tugboat mentioned in Brent's book; do you > > know anything about this boat, where it is, and > > whether the person made plans or had templates for > > it? > > > > Regards, > > > >Hi Alex, I am not sure which one he mentioned but if > it is the one I think it is here goes: It was built > probably about 14 years ago as a log salvage boat 30' > long. I worked on it for 3 weeks. The bottom of the > hull was pulled together with 2 plates in a very > shallow V starting from the bow and proceeding to very > flat in the stern. The hull sides were joined at the > bow and then pulled along either side onto the bottom > plates and bent into place and joined in the middle at > the stern. It was quite a simple process. Then the > decks were installed ,fuel tanks etc. etc. The pilot > house I think was wood. The boat is still running > around here in the harbour and the owner is quite > happy with it. > The designer of it is a friend of mine, John Dawson, > I don't think he kept any plans or patterns for it. I > could ask him but it might take a while as I don't see > him often and he is away a lot. I hope this is of help > to you...Evan > | 1351|1325|2003-02-24 11:48:47|Phil S.|Tug Plans|Thanks So much Alex for the information. That is wonderful. I can't wait til the big thaw here so I can get started. thanks Phil --- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > There is 1 message in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. tug hull in Origami > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 12:58:48 -0800 > From: "Alex & Kim Christie" > Subject: tug hull in Origami > > Group, > > I am forwarding this message I got from Evan Shaler > regarding the question > about other kinds of boat in origami technique, > specificallly the tugboat > hull. Here then is my original question and Evan's > comments on the subject: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: evan shaler > To: Alex & Kim Christie > Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 12:16 PM > Subject: Re: tug hull in Origami? > > > > > > --- Alex & Kim Christie > wrote: > > > Hi Evan, > > > > > > Someone on the Origamiboats list asked about the > > > origami tugboat mentioned in Brent's book; do > you > > > know anything about this boat, where it is, and > > > whether the person made plans or had templates > for > > > it? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > >Hi Alex, I am not sure which one he mentioned but > if > > it is the one I think it is here goes: It was > built > > probably about 14 years ago as a log salvage boat > 30' > > long. I worked on it for 3 weeks. The bottom of > the > > hull was pulled together with 2 plates in a very > > shallow V starting from the bow and proceeding to > very > > flat in the stern. The hull sides were joined at > the > > bow and then pulled along either side onto the > bottom > > plates and bent into place and joined in the > middle at > > the stern. It was quite a simple process. Then the > > decks were installed ,fuel tanks etc. etc. The > pilot > > house I think was wood. The boat is still running > > around here in the harbour and the owner is quite > > happy with it. > > The designer of it is a friend of mine, John > Dawson, > > I don't think he kept any plans or patterns for > it. I > > could ask him but it might take a while as I don't > see > > him often and he is away a lot. I hope this is of > help > > to you...Evan > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/| 1352|1338|2003-02-25 15:21:51|jalborey |Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics|Hi, I also would like somebody to comment on Philip's question. Allthough Brent and others have spoken a little bit about origamiboats sailing performance in earlier posts, I will find most useful to hear more comments from people who has sailed origamiboats with different lengths or rigs, in different weather conditions, etc. I think also that would be very helpful for us in the planning stage if somebody could comment on Philip's remarks about the building process. Thanks, Jesús --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "philipsparr " wrote: > Hello again, > > I've only seen a few mentions of the sailing characteristics of > these boats in the old messages, I'd like to hear more comments about > their pros and cons. Are the boats stiff or initially tender untill > they get heeled over a bit? I have an alberg 30 so am wondering how > they might compare. How close on the wind can the boats sail? 40 > deg., 50deg.? What sail combination works the best for heaving-to on > these boats? How does the boat lay while hove-to? Do these designs > have excessive weather helm or are they well balanced? I've seen > comments about their good directional stability but would like to > hear any other testimonials. Does anyone think the boats are over or > under powered? I appreciate responses to any of my questions, thanks. > > Philip Sparr | 1353|1338|2003-02-26 00:43:43|silascrosby |Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics|Philip, In reply to your questions about the sailing characteristics here are my opinions. I have a 36' Swain,twin keel,centercockpit. Mast 47',boom 15'.Inner forestay with staysail(foot of sail 10'). Yankee jib~ 110% of foretriangle on a roller furling headstay.We have sailed her inshore and offshore. Rather tender initially but must be overpowered to submerge the lee rail. To sail more upright requires reefing. I have 3 reefs in the mainsail and use them all. Our mainsail is somewhat larger than the original sailplan;our first reef brings it down to the original size.Lightwind performance is quite good as a result of the large main. Our yankee jib is relatively small but with a foam luff it reefs quite well and the high clew means the sheet lead does not need to move. Heaving- to in lighter winds i.e. ~25 knots is not particularly effective but our one experience with strong winds was better. In the mid-Pacific the wind piped up to 45-50 knots for afew hours nad it was getting really uncomfortable,even with a triple-reefed main and a staysail. With the tiller lashed to leeward and mainsail strapped in amidships , staysail handed, The experience was confidence inspiring. We lay with the bow off ~45-50 degrees from the wind.Perfect.Sat in the pilot-house and watched the luminescent wave-tops break harmlessly well to windward. We have made some good coast-wise windward trips. Wet work but with attention to sail trim good progress was always made without the diesel.She is pinching above 45degrees to the apparent wind. In reasonable seas we tack through 95-100 degrees.This is not greyhound material but nor is it like a westsail. A major limiting factor is the relatively wide sheeting angle on the jib due to long spreaders. They make for a strong rig but at some windward cost.The fin keeer does a little better hard on the wind.One could go for a double spreader rig for a narrower sheeting angle. Prior to this boat we had a Spencer 35 which is very similar to an Alberg 30. I think that we are nearly as good to windward as the Spencer but significantly faster on all other angles. Directional stability is good but the sails still need balancing with reefing and trimming. With our big main we get weather helm in 12-15 knots of wind so that is when we put in the first reef.Then we have good balance. There it is for what it is worth. Steve.| 1354|1354|2003-02-26 07:23:51|greenguy2ca |Masts|Hello group... I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about $1000 which seems a good buy. P.S... also looking for used diesel Thanks.. Gary| 1355|1355|2003-02-26 07:42:58|kingsknight4life |Are there any...??|Junk rigged Swain boats out there? The junk rig seems like a perfect choice for this boat. It is low tech,low cost and easily repaired and built by home builders. At least that's what I heard. (I'm new to sailing and mya be wrong?) Anyone have any pics. or thoughts about this?? I'd like to uild mine junk rigged for low cost and ease of handling.| 1356|1356|2003-02-26 07:44:48|kingsknight4life |Builders in Edmonton?|I think I read on herre somewhere that there's somone buildig a Swain boat here in Edmonton,where I live. If there is I'd love to come by and check out your boat and ak a few questions if it's at all possible. Thanks Rowland| 1357|1357|2003-02-26 10:39:04|prairiemaidca |Edmonton builders|Hi Rowland: If you like you can email us at bforster@... We have a 36 fin keel underconstruction just west of Stony Plain and I have a friend up at Smokey lake that has finished his bilge keeler. Martin and Betty (prairie maid)| 1358|1354|2003-02-26 11:45:51|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Masts|Glen, I would ship the mast with Can-Am Marine transport. We brought a boat out from Ontario with them, and they carry masts slung on a rack (I don't know what their maximum allowable length is, however). If you can wait for somone transporting a really big boat, then they would simply sling your mast up with the other on the rack. There are a few other transporters that might do it, too. Contact a yacht club to find other numbers, perhaps, or even in Toronto, which would be the transportation hub. The people at SALTS in Victoria have the number for Can-Am (www.saltsociety.com), or check the 1-800 listings through www.canada411.com . If you can at all help it, don't whack that mast in half! Or at least only cut it down to your exact needs (45-47 feet?). Diesels: I just picked up a recent Vanc.Isle Buy, Sell and Trade mag, and saw this add for diesel in the industrial equipment section: Isuzu C240, 60 hp, low hours, $2250, Union Bay, 335-2243. No indication as to marinising parts, but the price is right. Also in the marine section: Isuzu 4 cyl c221 Marine Diesel with water cooled exhaust manifold, 50 HP, runs great, good oil pressure, $3400. 245-4410 Ladysmith Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 4:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Masts > Hello group... > > I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good > condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to > Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this > summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it > trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am > thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding > strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about > $1000 which seems a good buy. > > P.S... also looking for used diesel > > Thanks.. Gary > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1359|1354|2003-02-26 13:28:58|John Jones|Re: Masts|Don't be silly ... put it on a train and meet it there. ---------- >From: "greenguy2ca " >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Masts >Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2003, 7:23 > > Hello group... > > I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good > condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to > Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this > summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it > trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am > thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding > strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about > $1000 which seems a good buy. > > P.S... also looking for used diesel > > Thanks.. Gary > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1360|1354|2003-02-26 13:29:46|John Jones|Re: Masts|Or sell it to me!!! ---------- >From: "greenguy2ca " >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Masts >Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2003, 7:23 > > Hello group... > > I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good > condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to > Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this > summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it > trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am > thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding > strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about > $1000 which seems a good buy. > > P.S... also looking for used diesel > > Thanks.. Gary > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1361|1354|2003-02-26 15:05:35|richytill |Re: Masts|Also looking for a used aluminum mast. There is a 39' pole here in Sechelt for a reasonble price--too short for the 36" though. Has anyone compared mast wheight between wood, aluminum and stainless steel recently? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Or sell it to me!!! > > ---------- > >From: "greenguy2ca " > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Masts > >Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2003, 7:23 > > > > > Hello group... > > > > I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good > > condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to > > Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this > > summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it > > trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am > > thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding > > strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about > > $1000 which seems a good buy. > > > > P.S... also looking for used diesel > > > > Thanks.. Gary > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > | 1362|1338|2003-02-27 02:46:30|mark_schlichting11 |Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics/mast construction|Thanks Steve, for sharing your sailing experiences. Although we have "finished" the construction of our 36' fin keeler we have yet to sail offshore and appreciate hearing about the boats performance in heavy weather. Just one question, and I'm sure this will spark a lively debate: What is your mast constructed of? Ours is 6" x 47' steel tubing with stainless mast steps and other homemade hardware and fittings. Although it is heavy (I'd guess around 500lbs completed) Brent figured it was comparable to a solid wooden spar. It is great for low cost of material, ease of construction and attachment of fittings and hardware (mast steps, tangs, spreader sockets etc), low maintenance, & strength. Some weight aloft also gives the boat a better motion and may prevent a knockdown from a single wave. On the other hand, it could cause a problem if you are healed and fall into a trough. There are those who feel that less weight aloft is of primary concern. Winston Bushnell, for instance, builds his masts from a birdsmouth constuction of red cedar which is very light. He worries about our weight, I worry about his strength and inability to go aloft easily to retreive a halyard or check rigging. There are Brent boats out there with all types of masts and I haven't heard firsthand of any that have had a dismasting, knockdown or any other problem. Any thoughts? PS I don't know about the rest of you, but I really appreciate it when those that aren't too shy sign their postings with their name, location, and boat name (if applicable). It makes it easier to get to know everyone and it is nice to know how far away people are writing from. Mark S. Shearwater, BC "Costa Vida"| 1363|1355|2003-02-27 11:09:30|pvanderwaart |Re: Are there any...??|> The junk rig seems like a perfect choice for this boat. I'm sure there are plenty of readers of Practical Junk Rig who would agree with you. I don't have any experience with either Swain boats or Junk Rig, but I do have a couple of comments. First, the principals of junk rig are very different from marconi rig. Junk rig calls for a unstayed mast. Marconi rig calls for stays, and on many boats, the mast is unsupported except for the stays. Junk rig puts all the sail area in the basic rig and reduces sail area as required. Marconi rig calls for a basic rig of medium size to which sail is added (genoa, spinnaker, etc.) when the wind is light, as well as reefing down when the wind is heavy. The junk rig does not allow for as much shape in the sails. All this is to say that you want to be aware of the tradeoffs you are making because they are considerable. Peter| 1364|1355|2003-02-28 00:52:33|Zelda@island.net|Re: Are there any...??|> > First, the principals of junk rig are very different from marconi > > rig. Junk rig calls for a unstayed mast. Marconi rig calls for stays, > > and on many boats, the mast is unsupported except for the stays. Junk > > rig puts all the sail area in the basic rig and reduces sail area as > > required. Marconi rig calls for a basic rig of medium size to which > > sail is added (genoa, spinnaker, etc.) when the wind is light, as > > well as reefing down when the wind is heavy. The junk rig does not > > allow for as much shape in the sails. > > > All this is to say that you want to be aware of the tradeoffs you are > > making because they are considerable. > > > What tradeoffs?? The ability to hang large sail area from a simplified rig without the need for downwind sails?? A low stress rig that doesn't need stays? Flat cut sails that can easily be made from cheap materials and perform well? The Junks I sail on are perfomance machines. their owners graduated from Macaroni rigs and would never go back! Make an informed decision, sail on some junks. Brent boats have been made with junk rigs and more are being built. Cheers, Paul Liebenberg| 1365|1258|2003-02-28 10:12:41|jeff outz |plans|ok, now that you have me convinced that this is going to be an uncompleted project, does anyone know if there are any plans for a 26-28' double-ender that can be built using these techniques? also what gauge steel are you working in. any help would be appreciated. thx.| 1366|1366|2003-02-28 11:37:18|Alex & Kim Christie|Double ender|Theoretically doing a 26 ft double-ender using these techniques should be quite simple using the regular plans for the 26 foot Swain and modifying the stern for no transom. Jack Carson did this for his 44 footer Bella Via, and asking him would be best. I'm not sure if the stern was exactly the same as the bow, but it must be close. The Rudder on Bella Via is inboard. The steel for the hulls is 3/16ths of an inch. The cabin is 1/8ths. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] plans > ok, > now that you have me convinced that this is going to be an > uncompleted project, does anyone know if there are any plans for a > 26-28' double-ender that can be built using these techniques? also > what gauge steel are you working in. any help would be appreciated. > thx. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1367|1338|2003-02-28 12:04:13|silascrosby |Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics/mast construction|We put on a 47' Isomat extruded aluminum mast and boom. It has an extruded sail track and pole-car track. An expensive bit of hardware.It is the same section that is used on Fraser 42's. It would be pretty hard to rationalise on a bare-bones budget. However we did put on galvanised standing rigging and turnbuckles - because it is better,not only cheaper. Minimal ,if any rust,after 9 yrs (1 yr in the tropics) of good use.Cheap and strong, easy to replace. No knockdowns so far but that is not because of the mast material. Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Courtenay| 1368|1354|2003-02-28 19:35:20|fmichael graham|Re: Masts|Don't cut your mast! Unlike mild steel, welding of aluminum does not return the properties to the weld affected zone that are found in the original specimen. While in Asia in the early '90's, I met an Australian whom had tried to repair an aluminum mast that was broken during a knock-down when he was travelling from Australia to Indonesia. On the second leg of his trip (to the Philippines) the mast broke along the welds. He tried to repair it in the same manner, using an inner sleeve in each repair, and it snapped again in strong winds, this time level with the upper extent of the sleeve. Upon viewing the broken sections, I could immediately appreciate the opinion which I had obtained from my Father (a metallurgical engineer), by long-distance telephone, regarding the Aussie's problem. If you need an aluminum mast for your boat then ship it or buy it locally. I wouldn't give a re-welded aluminum mast the chance of a fart in the wind, and if you go offshore with one you should probably change your name to "Bob"! Mike Graham (Vancouver, B.C. / Dalaguete, Philippines) y2ca " wrote:Hello group... I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about $1000 which seems a good buy. P.S... also looking for used diesel Thanks.. Gary Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1369|1354|2003-02-28 21:50:43|richytill |Re: Masts|I agree, aluminum butt welds are not ideal for masts. Looking at scrap stainless 6" for 47' mast at 380 lbs with 3 welds. Have an option to go aluminum at 223 lbs. Tough call but the cost advantage of the scrap ss is aluring. rt, "my Island", Sechelt. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > Don't cut your mast! > Unlike mild steel, welding of aluminum does not return the properties to the weld affected zone that are found in the original specimen. While in Asia in the early '90's, I met an Australian whom had tried to repair an aluminum mast that was broken during a knock- down when he was travelling from Australia to Indonesia. On the second leg of his trip (to the Philippines) the mast broke along the welds. He tried to repair it in the same manner, using an inner sleeve in each repair, and it snapped again in strong winds, this time level with the upper extent of the sleeve. Upon viewing the broken sections, I could immediately appreciate the opinion which I had obtained from my Father (a metallurgical engineer), by long- distance telephone, regarding the Aussie's problem. > If you need an aluminum mast for your boat then ship it or buy it locally. I wouldn't give a re-welded aluminum mast the chance of a fart in the wind, and if you go offshore with one you should probably change your name to "Bob"! > Mike Graham (Vancouver, B.C. / Dalaguete, Philippines) > > y2ca " wrote:Hello group... > > I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good > condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to > Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this > summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it > trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am > thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding > strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about > $1000 which seems a good buy. > > P.S... also looking for used diesel > > Thanks.. Gary > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1370|1370|2003-03-02 01:15:32|jeff outz |converting from wood/glass to steel|hi, hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' double ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any help appreciated.| 1371|1370|2003-03-02 15:02:58|schafferhaus |Re: converting from wood/glass to steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " wrote: > hi, > hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to > convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel > concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' double > ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any help > appreciated. jeff - I am new to this group, and am afraid i have no knowledge base to give you an answer, but i'd like to know what 31' ply plan your talking about. i have not yet made the final decision re: wood or steel. good luck. steve| 1372|1370|2003-03-02 19:04:33|pvanderwaart |Re: converting from wood/glass to steel|> hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to > convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel > concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' double > ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any help > appreciated. Depending on the design, it might be possible and might not. Up to sizes considerable larger than 31', steel construction is heavier than ply or glass. In general, when designers offer a steel version, they use a different set of hull lines to allow for the additional displacement. See http://www.stadtdesign.com/, for example. One of the reasons that steel is heavier is that if you use thin plating to keep the weight down, the plate becomes very flexible and a lot of framing is needed. Since part of the concept of orgiami boats is to minimize the framing, that is going in the wrong direction. I don't have the weights of the Swain boats, but Tanton (http://www.tantonyachts.com/)has several steel double-enders in the 30'-35' range and the displacements are in the 15,000 to 20,000lbs range. That would be fully loaded, but as much as 50% more than a glass or ply boat of the same length. Peter| 1373|1370|2003-03-03 01:56:48|jeff outz |Re: converting from wood/glass to steel|-hi again, my mistake, it's a 34'6" lod double ended pinky schooner from selway fisher yachts. gaff ketch rigged, disp. is 11 tons(?) i think it would make up into a very nice boat in either wood, glass or steel. hope that helps you out.-- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "schafferhaus " wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " > wrote: > > hi, > > hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to > > convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel > > concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' double > > ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any help > > appreciated. > > jeff - I am new to this group, and am afraid i have no knowledge base > to give you an answer, but i'd like to know what 31' ply plan your > talking about. i have not yet made the final decision re: wood or > steel. good luck. > steve | 1374|1370|2003-03-03 07:14:40|schafferhaus |Re: converting from wood/glass to steel|thanks for the reply - that is a nice little ship - so you are planning round-bilge steel, or doing a modification? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " wrote: > -hi again, > my mistake, it's a 34'6" lod double ended pinky schooner from > selway fisher yachts. gaff ketch rigged, disp. is 11 tons(?) i think > it would make up into a very nice boat in either wood, glass or > steel. hope that helps you out.-- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "schafferhaus " > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " > > wrote: > > > hi, > > > hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to > > > convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel > > > concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' > double > > > ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any > help > > > appreciated. > > > > jeff - I am new to this group, and am afraid i have no knowledge > base > > to give you an answer, but i'd like to know what 31' ply plan your > > talking about. i have not yet made the final decision re: wood or > > steel. good luck. > > steve | 1375|1370|2003-03-03 09:33:03|jeff outz |Re: converting from wood/glass to steel|-i would like to be able to convert this plan to folded steel if possible, if not then i am going to look around a bit more to see if i can find something else, i really like this one though. i guess i might have to build in wood to get the look that i want (round bilge double end, ketch rig, and standing headroom). i was also looking at yawl rigging that same boat as well. if i can help let me know. jeff ps. if you need any chainplates, doublers, mast steps or anything less than 4'x8' cut from flat stock let me know, i used to be the supervisor of a sheetmetal shop here in town, so i can usually get the work done reasonable. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "schafferhaus " wrote: > thanks for the reply - that is a nice little ship - so you are > planning round-bilge steel, or doing a modification? > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " > wrote: > > -hi again, > > my mistake, it's a 34'6" lod double ended pinky schooner from > > selway fisher yachts. gaff ketch rigged, disp. is 11 tons(?) i > think > > it would make up into a very nice boat in either wood, glass or > > steel. hope that helps you out.-- In > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "schafferhaus " > > wrote: > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jeff outz " > > > wrote: > > > > hi, > > > > hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to > > > > convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel > > > > concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' > > double > > > > ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any > > help > > > > appreciated. > > > > > > jeff - I am new to this group, and am afraid i have no knowledge > > base > > > to give you an answer, but i'd like to know what 31' ply plan > your > > > talking about. i have not yet made the final decision re: wood or > > > steel. good luck. > > > steve | 1376|1370|2003-03-03 14:53:28|pvanderwaart |Re: converting from wood/glass to steel|> my mistake, it's a 34'6" lod double ended pinky schooner from > selway fisher yachts. The man with experience with steel pinkies is Thomas Colvin. See http://www.thomasecolvin.com/index.htm and especially http://www.thomasecolvin.com/pinkies.htm Colvin is an independent thinker, and highly regarded. He has experience designing, sailing, and building. I think he is retired, but still somewhat active. These boats are not origami, but should reflect the length/weight relationships for steel pinkies. If you go to http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_advanced_search_form.jsp and search for steel boats in the US, you will find quite a number of Colvin boats, especially his Gazelle. Peter| 1377|42|2003-03-04 21:49:38|robertgm36|twin keels|There is an interesting article about twin keels in the latest issue of Ocean Navigator Magazine Robert| 1378|42|2003-03-05 08:03:01|Gary H. Lucas|Re: twin keels|Also an article on twin keels in Good Old Boat magazine this month by Ted Brewer. This is a great magazine by the way! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "robertgm36" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] twin keels > There is an interesting article about twin keels in the > latest issue of Ocean Navigator Magazine > Robert > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1379|42|2003-03-05 18:14:14|edward_stoneuk|Re: twin keels|Gary and Robert, What was the gist of the articles? I am building a 36' and intend putting twin keels on it. I don't have access to those publications here in the UK. Do they think that twin keels are a good thing or a bad thing? Regards, Ted| 1380|42|2003-03-05 23:14:24|robertgm36|twin keels|My apologies everyone. The twin keel article is in Good Old Boat as stated by Gary. I have both mags and maybe I should not stay up so late reading them and then attemping something that requires brain power. Ted Brewer has his own web site and maybe you can access his twin keel info there.He seems quite positive re twin keels and has a photo of a steel pilothouse boat he designed in the article. Also Good Old Boat magazine has a web page. You can find both via Google search. Robert| 1381|42|2003-03-06 00:55:55|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: twin keels|I found the reference to Brewer's twin keel article on Good Old Boat website, but unfortunately neither articles are published online. They are referenced from this page: http://goodoldboat.no-ip.com:8000/articles/FMPro Brewer's 36 foot steel pilot house motorsailor PUFFIN uses twin keels, which you can also look at on his website at: http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_steel/puffin.htm . Before I found the Swain boats I was quite interested in this design. The drawing on his website gives no indication of the underbody of the boat, something I'll never understand since this is one of the most important aspects of the boat. I know I've got a photocopy that article "somewhere", but can't lay my hand on it, darn it. Patrick Bray has a nice article online about twin keels http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/twinkeels.html He also has one design which utilizes the origami method of construction, plus twin keels. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: robertgm36 To: Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 7:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] twin keels > My apologies everyone. The twin keel article is in Good Old Boat as > stated by Gary. I have both mags and maybe I should not stay up so > late reading them and then attemping something that requires brain > power. Ted Brewer has his own web site and maybe you can access his > twin keel info there.He seems quite positive re twin keels and has > a photo of a steel pilothouse boat he designed in the article. Also > Good Old Boat magazine has a web page. You can find both via Google > search. > Robert > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1382|42|2003-03-06 14:10:35|Michael Casling|Re: twin keels|Ted wrote: Gary and Robert, What was the gist of the articles? I am building a 36' and intend putting twin keels on it. I don't have access to those publications here in the UK. Do they think that twin keels are a good thing or a bad thing? Ted I have not read the articles mentioned but I have some general thoughts. The choice of a keel seems to require two ideals, Performance and Function. If performance was the only requirement then a thin foil with a bulb would be good. But the problem is that it would not be practical in a lot of circumstances, like hitting rocks or having the tide go out. So a solid fin keel would be more practical, something like the large chunk of iron ( in the form of a fin ) on our moderate displacement plastic boat. This keel will not be damaged nor will the hull with encounters of the solid kind, and the boat can sit on it if need be. But if I was going to park the boat on the hard everytime the tide went out the twin keels make a sensible option. The articles generaly refer to the placement of the keels and how if you do this or that they will work well. They can work well but so far not as good as a single fin. Previous posts from owners of the 36 foot boats have stated this. As there are heaps of twin keel boats in England there is probably lots of info available there. I am sure Moodys sp? has a lot to say on this. My preference is for a solid fin keel but I would not discourage anyone from using twin keels. Michael Casling in BC Canada [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1383|42|2003-03-06 16:06:30|Gary H. Lucas|Re: twin keels|I think that twin keels can have very good performance if done correctly. For instance making them much smaller, but asymmetrical so they have lots of lift. Most of the examples of twin keel boats are just two keels on the same hull, so they have more drag and go slower. As Ted Brewer mentions, very little tank testing has ever been done to establish what a good design might look like. So getting it right is going to be more luck than science. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: twin keels > Ted wrote: > > Gary and Robert, > > What was the gist of the articles? I am building a 36' and intend > putting twin keels on it. I don't have access to those publications > here in the UK. Do they think that twin keels are a good thing or > a bad thing? > > Ted I have not read the articles mentioned but I have some general thoughts. The choice of a keel seems to require two ideals, Performance and Function. If performance was the only requirement then a thin foil with a bulb would be good. But the problem is that it would not be practical in a lot of circumstances, like hitting rocks or having the tide go out. So a solid fin keel would be more practical, something like the large chunk of iron ( in the form of a fin ) on our moderate displacement plastic boat. This keel will not be damaged nor will the hull with encounters of the solid kind, and the boat can sit on it if need be. But if I was going to park the boat on the hard everytime the tide went out the twin keels make a sensible option. The articles generaly refer to the placement of the keels and how if you do this or that they will work well. They can work well but so far not as good as a single fin. Previous posts from owners of the 36 foot boats have stated this. As there are heaps of twin keel boats in England there is probably lots of info available there. I am sure Moodys sp? has a lot to say on this. My preference is for a solid fin keel but I would not discourage anyone from using twin keels. > Michael Casling in BC Canada > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1384|1384|2003-03-07 06:03:54|...|Re Twin Keels|Hi Gary, For some time now I have been reading all the posts on this very interesting subject of origami construction. What you say about twin keels is correct, it is very important to get the shape of the asymmetrical keels correct. The profile needs to be an aerofoil,and has to be drawn to the correct proportions just like an aircraft wing,as it is performing the same function, lift, not just what might look right. If it is not the correct length to thickness it will create more drag, as would a rectangular section with just a radius on front and back. There is data available to plot the profiles. I am very interested in finding a way of converting the lines of a hull to origami construction and have been searching for software that will give me the developed shape of plate. Unfortunately the software that claims to be able to create the developed shape is very expensive. To date I have not seen any example of what it is claimed the software can do. Only when I have seen an example will I consider spending money on the software. Geoff Pearce| 1385|1384|2003-03-07 09:06:26|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Re Twin Keels|I bought a set of Brent Swains plans for a 31' boat. I tried to bring the lines into a program that I use every day called Rhino 3D and create developable surfaces. I came to the conclusion that Brent's lines were probably taken from a hull he built, the hull was not built from the lines. To get the shape shown by his lines you have to have compound curves. I think this is correct because what happens is that pulling in the bow and stern forces a little compound curvature into the plates if the shape you cut doesn't actually represent a developable surface. This isn't a bad thing, the surface looks very fair and is very strong. It makes it nearly impossible though to make an accurate 3D model that can be unrolled to give you flat plates. I think I can tweak the lines a little and actually get developable plates. I managed to do it for the bow, but the stern is somewhat more difficult. I wanted an accurate shape because that would allow me to produce a file for plasma cutting of all the parts. More importantly I could design the interior of the boat and actually build it outside the boat without lots of hours fitting individual pieces. I am VERY disappointed with the boat interiors I see! I think it is because until now, with 3D software there is no good way to accurately envision what the interior will look like when it is complete. When faced with that huge irregular cavity you are left with building a piece at a time, fitting the next piece into the space left. Inevitably you find that if a settee had been 1/2" shorter the nav table would have fit properly, but of course it is too late to make that change! Imagine a Brent Swain boat built from a set of plans that included accurate drawings for every hull, deck and interior piece needed. I'll bet the building time could be reduced far more than the savings already achieved by Brent's origami technique! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "..." To: Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 6:07 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re Twin Keels > Hi Gary, > For some time now I have been reading all the posts on this very interesting > subject of origami construction. > What you say about twin keels is correct, it is very important to get the > shape of the asymmetrical keels correct. > The profile needs to be an aerofoil,and has to be drawn to the correct > proportions just like an aircraft wing,as it is performing the same > function, lift, > not just what might look right. > If it is not the correct length to thickness it will create more drag, as > would a rectangular section with just a radius on front and back. > There is data available to plot the profiles. > I am very interested in finding a way of converting the lines of a hull to > origami construction and have been searching for software that will give me > the developed shape of plate. > Unfortunately the software that claims to be able to create the developed > shape is very expensive. > To date I have not seen any example of what it is claimed the software can > do. > Only when I have seen an example will I consider spending money on the > software. > Geoff Pearce > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1386|1386|2003-03-07 11:23:20|prairiemaidca|bow roller (book vs. Plans)|Hi all: It's minus 40c on the prairie and not much fun to be out working with cold steel. I'm hoping to use a friends machine shop and plasma for a mass stainless cutting spree, bow roller, mooring bits etc.... In the book the bow roller picture shows it as being 6.5in. wide and in the plans it is 8in. wide and a different height. I'm looking at going with the 8in. in the plans... Opinions please... Martin (prairie maid)....| 1387|1386|2003-03-07 12:45:49|jalborey|Re: bow roller (book vs. Plans)|Martin, I think that the drawings in the book could refer to any of Brent's designs; not necessarily to yours. I would proceed according with the plans's measures. Regards, Jesús --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi all: It's minus 40c on the prairie and not much fun to be out > working with cold steel. I'm hoping to use a friends machine shop > and plasma for a mass stainless cutting spree, bow roller, mooring > bits etc.... In the book the bow roller picture shows it as being > 6.5in. wide and in the plans it is 8in. wide and a different height. > I'm looking at going with the 8in. in the plans... Opinions > please... Martin (prairie maid).... | 1388|1386|2003-03-07 13:43:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: bow roller (book vs. Plans)|Another way of looking at it is to consider the width of your rollers, or the material you will make them from or your anchor and its chain or the steel you have and make the frame to suit. I have started making my bow rollers from a block of medium density polyethylene (MDPE) that I have been given. I would have preferred polypropylene but I don't have any. I haven't finalised my roller design yet because the MDPE is fairly soft so I am thinking I might need steel cheek plates to stop it eventually jamming in the frame. Regards, Ted| 1389|1389|2003-03-07 15:41:30|prairiemaidca|bow rollers|Hi All: I managed to pick up a chunk of half in. stainless that is 9ft by 21 inches wide, for a couple of bucks. I was also given a large piece of 3/4in. very dense white plastic material. I'm not sure what type it is but it came from a bakery table top. It's very tough stuff to cut. My jig saw had a hell of a time cutting off a piece that I could send to the island for my father to soak in salt water for a few weeks. The salt test showed no sign of swelling. Another material option open to me for rollers is a nylon type material that is used for bearings. Decicions, decicions. Maritn (Prairie Maid)| 1390|1389|2003-03-07 16:53:32|jalborey|Re: bow rollers|Martin, The material you are describing is probably high density poliethylene, the same stuff which kitchen chopping boards are made of and Brent Swain recommends in his book to build the bow roller. At least here (Spain), butcher's chopping boards, heavy duty counters, etc. are made of this sort of plastic. Hope this helps, Jesús --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All: I managed to pick up a chunk of half in. stainless that is > 9ft by 21 inches wide, for a couple of bucks. I was also given a > large piece of 3/4in. very dense white plastic material. I'm not > sure what type it is but it came from a bakery table top. It's very > tough stuff to cut. My jig saw had a hell of a time cutting off a > piece that I could send to the island for my father to soak in salt > water for a few weeks. The salt test showed no sign of swelling. > Another material option open to me for rollers is a nylon type > material that is used for bearings. Decicions, decicions. Maritn > (Prairie Maid) | 1391|1391|2003-03-07 18:31:43|...|Re bow rollers|Hi, I think your piece of bakery table will High density Polyethylene (HDPE) or High molecular weight (PE) which is very tough to cut,it is similar to the material that is used to make the plastic drums for chemicals. Virtually no water absobtion,it needs to be turned or machine with very sharp tools,with more top rake on the turning tools. The nylon type material is very tough but will absorb a very small amount of water, so the hole should be drill slightly oversize or the nylon will swell with the water and lock on the bolt or pin that it runs on. Nylon also requires the same tools Geoff Pearce| 1392|1391|2003-03-07 21:42:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Re bow rollers|If anybody is interested I may have some large diameter polyethylene, nylon and polypropylene bar stock in diameters from about 3" to 6". I may also have a source for some more cheap. I know a guy that has been collecting piles of the stuff for several years. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "..." To: Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 6:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re bow rollers > Hi, > I think your piece of bakery table will High density Polyethylene (HDPE) > or High molecular weight (PE) which is very tough to cut,it is similar to > the material > that is used to make the plastic drums for chemicals. > Virtually no water absobtion,it needs to be turned or machine with very > sharp tools,with more > top rake on the turning tools. > The nylon type material is very tough but will absorb a very small amount of > water, so the hole > should be drill slightly oversize or the nylon will swell with the water and > lock on the bolt or pin that it runs on. > Nylon also requires the same tools > Geoff Pearce > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1393|1393|2003-03-07 22:25:22|prairiemaidca|winch parts|Hi All: Can anyone please tell me what diameter the axle for the winch is??? I have some heavy walled 1 7/8 od 316ss but I'm not sure if this is of sufficient diameter to do the job for the 36ft. Martin (Prairie Maid)| 1394|1391|2003-03-07 23:02:28|mark_schlichting11|Re: Re bow rollers|Smaller bar or rod stock is great for making the sheet leads in Brent's book; I just cut of sections with a table saw. The 1/2' sheets cut with a hole-saw works great for making blocks and the halyard sheeves. If you can't find any at a scrapyard or from a friend, they also sell it at Industrial Plastics (although expensive). Mark S. Shearwater Costa Vida| 1395|1395|2003-03-08 18:08:01|downdeep1968|40 foot interior photos|Does anyone out there have any photos they could send me or post that they have taken of the interior of their boat. I am going to be building a 40 foot version and am trying to invision the space inside. I have looked at the photos Alex has posted but if anyone has anything else I would love to see them!| 1396|1395|2003-03-08 18:11:13|Glen|40 foot interior photos|Does anyone out there have any photos they could send me or post that they have taken of the interior of their boat. I am going to be building a 40 foot version and am trying to invision the space inside. I have looked at the photos Alex has posted but if anyone has anything else I would love to see them!| 1397|1397|2003-03-08 19:43:57|farmulation|building cost - 36 footer|Hi: I just read thru Brent's book for the first time. I'm after current info on the building cost for hull and deck of the 36 footer. That is for the whole enchilada, keels, rudder, skeg, house, etc., ready for installation of hatches and fitting out. Is there someone to whom you could refer me for this info, should you not have it at the ready? Thanks John McWilliams| 1398|1391|2003-03-09 04:27:36|Edward Stone|Re: Re bow rollers|My copy of Brent's book (Page 35) suggests using high density polypropylene rather than polyethylene. I would think that any plastic used as a chopping board or work surface would have the qualities needed to be a successful bow roller. Regards, Ted| 1399|1258|2003-03-09 09:25:22|jeff outz|plans|hi, i was trying to find out if anypne had a set of old study plans for a nice double ender , or something that i could modify into a double ender that they would sell. i hate to buy new plans and start modifying them right off the bat. thx jeff| 1400|1258|2003-03-10 00:37:14|mat_man22|Re: plans|Jack Hanna's famous "TAHITI" 32'. "Carol Ketch" is the 36' version. TAHITI Plans were published through Mechanics Illustrated in the sixties and my be available at library loan. see: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/tahitiana/index.htm Book entitled "A Ketch Called Tahiti" by John Stephen Doherty. It is all about Hanna and his designs. Hope this helps Mat| 1401|1401|2003-03-10 00:42:50|farmulation|resources for study|Greetings steel freaks! I hope we're far enough along in our journeys to not be offended by such a moniker. I assure you that I identify as such. The business at hand: I'm after a reding list or some such so I can study up on the mysteries and idiosyncracies of this material and method. Does a catlog of designs exist and if so, where might I find it? I live in Victoria and work in Sidney.| 1402|1258|2003-03-10 01:35:06|mat_man22|Re: plans|FAMOUS TAHITI KETCH, THE ... Hanna's famous cruising ketch. Includes full particulars and plans for Tahiti II.. John G. Hanna, 44 pages, 10 plate(s), Pub No. 5210, booklet, $9.95, http://www.dngoodchild.com/5210.htm| 1403|1258|2003-03-10 13:58:18|schafferhaus|Re: plans|Hey! Here I am cruisin' thru a steel boat forum and find plans mentioned for one of my favorite wood boats! Anyone know how and where to get actual building plans anymore? steve| 1404|1258|2003-03-10 17:08:53|pvanderwaart|Re: plans|Get real. By the time you take the plans of a boat with very moderate performance and convert them to steel, you are going spend a lot of energy to get a boat of very moderate performance that no buyer in his right mind should touch. I'm not sure what the prices of the Swain plans are, but you can get good plans along with the designer's blessings and support for very little money. See for example, Green Peace and Tonnerre at http://www.tantonyachts.com/ for $300. Even if you are not convinced that the plans will save you that piddly amount during constrution, it will certaily get you many times that in price when the boat is sold. Peter| 1405|1258|2003-03-10 18:12:43|John McWilliams|Re: plans|Hi Peter. Thanks for the mail. I checked out Tanton's site and am including it in my list of related items. I'm curious as to your vehemence on the topic. Are you builder, sailor, broker, what? Is there some interest for you in this beyond enthusiasm? I'm just beginning my investigations into this area of endeavor so am more interested in infomation than opinions, but being a creature of strong opinions myself, I appreciate how the two infom each other. Best regards John ----- Original Message ----- From: pvanderwaart To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 2:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans Get real. By the time you take the plans of a boat with very moderate performance and convert them to steel, you are going spend a lot of energy to get a boat of very moderate performance that no buyer in his right mind should touch. I'm not sure what the prices of the Swain plans are, but you can get good plans along with the designer's blessings and support for very little money. See for example, Green Peace and Tonnerre at http://www.tantonyachts.com/ for $300. Even if you are not convinced that the plans will save you that piddly amount during constrution, it will certaily get you many times that in price when the boat is sold. Peter Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1406|1258|2003-03-10 22:25:33|mat_man22|Re: plans|I am wrong. I was assuming that because Weston Farmer's TAHITIANA is steel that Hanna's TAHITI was also. Sorry for the confusion. Mat| 1407|1407|2003-03-10 22:55:00|John Jones|steel|Okay I've tried to find a sheet of steel 36'X8'X3/16" and Ontario does not offer such a size. Do you have any idea as to where I can get two pieces this size? John| 1408|1258|2003-03-10 23:39:56|mat_man22|Re: plans|William Atkin drew hundreds of plans suitable for the personal builder, for all sizes and types of wood and steel vessels. Catalog of over 200 designs previously published in "Motor Boating"; Obtain from Atkin & Co http://www.by-the-sea.com/atkin&co/ Study Plans are available for $6.00 Atkins has double-enders, this is a copy of a 20' wood in the MoToR BoatinG series. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/files/Economy%20Jane/ Index of Plans MoToR BoatinG Magazine: http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/index.html Once you found some plans you should be able to get a copy at library loan.| 1409|1407|2003-03-11 02:07:18|Glen|Re: steel|I'm not too sure where you live in Ontario but someone out there must sell the stuff! Don't give up, you might have to look a little further out of town or maybe another town for that matter. In the search if you can't locate a dealer directly try asking some of the local welding/fabricating shops. They must know of someone who can supply it. If that does not work look and see if there are any scrap dealers around and ask them. They might not be too happy that they are not getting the sale but hey you might be knocking on their door again for various other parts in the near future. The last place I might try if all else fails is to look and see if there is a school or tech. college that teaches welding or metal work and ask the instructor where they get their steel from. Keep looking!! It's out there somewhere.| 1410|1258|2003-03-11 09:46:50|pvanderwaart|Re: plans|> I'm curious as to your vehemence on the topic. Are you builder, sailor, broker, what? Is there some interest for you in this beyond enthusiasm? I am the moderator of the Yahoo group 'boatdesign' which is mostly devoted to home-designed, home-built boats made out of two or three sheets of plywood. We do discuss larger projects from time to time. I also follow the discussions of several other lists like this one that can be counted on to be interesting. One of the recurring events on these boards is a post asking about 'free plans.' Amateurs really hate to spend a buck for anything that does not end up as a tangible part of the finished boat. This includes not just plans, but also material used for temporary molds, ribbands, etc. These latter items are used by professonials in wooden boat construction and they are the experts in building the quickest and cheapest way. Of course, they may be able to use the material more than once, but I'm not sure how often they actually do. The labor time they save is more important than the material cost. Amateurs usually do not put a price on their time but they really should. It's sort of like the inverse of communism (which held that all value was in the labor) and is equally incorrect. I can point out that saving labor time is what the origami method is all about. To get back to the point, 'free' plans are most often old plans. Old plans have several problems of which the first, and probably least important, is that the design itself is old. You can get a better plan today than the Tahiti ketch, but if you want to sail the oceans slowly and safely, the Tahiti will still get you there. The bigger problems are (1) that new plans will reflect new methods that are easier and faster, (2) old plans often call for materials and fittings that are no longer easy to get, and (3) new plans usually come with a living, breathing designer to answer your questions. Finally, though it may not seem so, the hull shape and construction is actually one of the easier parts of yacht design, especially for cruising sailboats. If you are not qualified to design the hull, I don't think you are qualified to make major changes to the design. That's a personal opinion, and I grant that there are exceptions, but I have also heard a lot of designers stories about how amateurs made changes to their designs that made them unsafe. It's not just that the designer deserves payment for his work, but that his work will save you money and contribute to your success. Peter| 1411|1407|2003-03-11 15:32:54|John Jones|Re: steel|Yup, I even went to the sources source, "Stelco" in Hamilton, went to the ship builders and ship repair guys along the Welland Canal, I'm also affiliated with a dry-dock in Toronto and I'm well familiar with local fabricators. I'm still checking around but I may need to find a source out of province, just thought someone in the group would know of a place and maybe that place will know of a place or contact closer to home. I'll find it somewhere. ---------- >From: "Glen" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: steel >Date: Tue, Mar 11, 2003, 2:07 > > I'm not too sure where you live in Ontario but someone out there must > sell the stuff! Don't give up, you might have to look a little > further out of town or maybe another town for that matter. In the > search if you can't locate a dealer directly try asking some of the > local welding/fabricating shops. They must know of someone who can > supply it. If that does not work look and see if there are any scrap > dealers around and ask them. They might not be too happy that they > are not getting the sale but hey you might be knocking on their door > again for various other parts in the near future. > The last place I might try if all else fails is to look and see if > there is a school or tech. college that teaches welding or metal work > and ask the instructor where they get their steel from. Keep > looking!! > It's out there somewhere. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1412|1412|2003-03-11 23:40:33|John McWilliams|Re: plans-free?|Peter Thanks for the reply re: plans. I'm intruigued by your apparent assumption that I was in search of free plans. I think that if you review my original posting containing the request for plans and read it carefully you will see that I said I was looking for plans, or a source for plans. let me be more clear. Who is selling plans for steel boats built by this origami method? How do I get in touch with them? This query goes out to one and all. Regards John ----- Original Message ----- From: pvanderwaart To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans > I'm curious as to your vehemence on the topic. Are you builder, sailor, broker, what? Is there some interest for you in this beyond enthusiasm? I am the moderator of the Yahoo group 'boatdesign' which is mostly devoted to home-designed, home-built boats made out of two or three sheets of plywood. We do discuss larger projects from time to time. I also follow the discussions of several other lists like this one that can be counted on to be interesting. One of the recurring events on these boards is a post asking about 'free plans.' Amateurs really hate to spend a buck for anything that does not end up as a tangible part of the finished boat. This includes not just plans, but also material used for temporary molds, ribbands, etc. These latter items are used by professonials in wooden boat construction and they are the experts in building the quickest and cheapest way. Of course, they may be able to use the material more than once, but I'm not sure how often they actually do. The labor time they save is more important than the material cost. Amateurs usually do not put a price on their time but they really should. It's sort of like the inverse of communism (which held that all value was in the labor) and is equally incorrect. I can point out that saving labor time is what the origami method is all about. To get back to the point, 'free' plans are most often old plans. Old plans have several problems of which the first, and probably least important, is that the design itself is old. You can get a better plan today than the Tahiti ketch, but if you want to sail the oceans slowly and safely, the Tahiti will still get you there. The bigger problems are (1) that new plans will reflect new methods that are easier and faster, (2) old plans often call for materials and fittings that are no longer easy to get, and (3) new plans usually come with a living, breathing designer to answer your questions. Finally, though it may not seem so, the hull shape and construction is actually one of the easier parts of yacht design, especially for cruising sailboats. If you are not qualified to design the hull, I don't think you are qualified to make major changes to the design. That's a personal opinion, and I grant that there are exceptions, but I have also heard a lot of designers stories about how amateurs made changes to their designs that made them unsafe. It's not just that the designer deserves payment for his work, but that his work will save you money and contribute to your success. Peter Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1413|1413|2003-03-12 18:32:45|nadim|New member|Hi all, I though I'd present myself shortly. Nadim, 35, father, computer eng. and not directly using English in my everyday's life. I took me quite a while before deciding to join this group as my interrests are not directly in origammiboats. I read _all_ the archive and I finally joined as I think I have a few ideas to share and there is certainly lots of ideas and experience to get from this group. The one thing that might make me an 'heretic' in this group is that I don't like to sail! it's better than motor ones way around but still I don't like sailling much (I get bored). But I sure like boats and I love building things. I had a boat build and I was working on it too so I have practical experience. I plan to build another boat in the comming years and I already started writting ideas down. The boat won't be an origamiboat, as it doesn't scale, but I still think the idea is very good. I'll have trillion questions and I hopefully can answer some. Question of the day: Except this group, are there other sympatical groups, specially on metal boats and catamarans, around? I am quite allergic to 'Designer non sense' like some other users in this group ;-). Second question of the day (00:00 just passed): are there any origamiboats build in Sweden, particularely in the south. It would be very educating to touch and feel one. Nadim.| 1414|1414|2003-03-12 20:28:26|Aaron Edelman|steel hull|Hi there, guessing from the info, you are looking for steel boat building information. At the recent Boat show in Vancouver, B.C. I picked up a book called THE STEEL HULL, by Roger McAfee published by Nighthawk Marine Ltd. Vancouver B.C. ISBN 096865366 Table of content Foreword About the Writer Introduction Nature of Steel The Nature of Aluminum and Copper Nickel Metals Discussion Corrosion in Steel Corrosion Protection Steel Hull Repair Social Considerations Project Management Do It Yourself - How Much? Buying Right Tools and Equipment Safety Welding Management and Equipment Welding, The Technical Stuff Cutting Steel Hull Repair Methods Hull Repair, External Patch Hull Repair, Insert and Edge Overlap Expedition Cruiser Financial Consideration Conclusion Mr.. McAfee has a lifelong experience with Boats, two degrees from UBC and is an independent Consultant and Strategist. Has delivered a boat from the East Cost through Panama Canal up the West Coast. His current project is the rebuilding of a 65' steel vessel. No, I have no vested interest in Mr.. McAfee's business, and or in the sale of his books. I've met Mr.. McAfee briefly at the boat show (when I bought his book). Roger also wrote another excellent book called THE DRY BOAT available from the same source. other sites to visit www.metalboatsociety.com Hope this helps, Ron _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus| 1415|1412|2003-03-12 21:14:57|Larry Doyle|Re: plans-free?|John, Here's the info on obtaining plans for Origami sailboats. Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 for postage to the above address. Brent's e-mail address is: brentswain38@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John McWilliams" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: plans-free? > Peter > Thanks for the reply re: plans. I'm intruigued by your apparent assumption that I was in search of free plans. I think that if you review my original posting containing the request for plans and read it carefully you will see that I said I was looking for plans, or a source for plans. let me be more clear. Who is selling plans for steel boats built by this origami method? How do I get in touch with them? > This query goes out to one and all. > Regards > John > ----- Original Message ----- > From: pvanderwaart > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2003 6:46 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: plans > > > > I'm curious as to your vehemence on the topic. Are you builder, > sailor, broker, what? Is there some interest for you in this beyond > enthusiasm? > > I am the moderator of the Yahoo group 'boatdesign' which is mostly > devoted to home-designed, home-built boats made out of two or three > sheets of plywood. We do discuss larger projects from time to time. I > also follow the discussions of several other lists like this one that > can be counted on to be interesting. > > One of the recurring events on these boards is a post asking > about 'free plans.' Amateurs really hate to spend a buck for anything > that does not end up as a tangible part of the finished boat. This > includes not just plans, but also material used for temporary molds, > ribbands, etc. These latter items are used by professonials in wooden > boat construction and they are the experts in building the quickest > and cheapest way. Of course, they may be able to use the material > more than once, but I'm not sure how often they actually do. The > labor time they save is more important than the material cost. > Amateurs usually do not put a price on their time but they really > should. It's sort of like the inverse of communism (which held that > all value was in the labor) and is equally incorrect. I can point out > that saving labor time is what the origami method is all about. > > To get back to the point, 'free' plans are most often old plans. Old > plans have several problems of which the first, and probably least > important, is that the design itself is old. You can get a better > plan today than the Tahiti ketch, but if you want to sail the oceans > slowly and safely, the Tahiti will still get you there. The bigger > problems are (1) that new plans will reflect new methods that are > easier and faster, (2) old plans often call for materials and > fittings that are no longer easy to get, and (3) new plans usually > come with a living, breathing designer to answer your questions. > > Finally, though it may not seem so, the hull shape and construction > is actually one of the easier parts of yacht design, especially for > cruising sailboats. If you are not qualified to design the hull, I > don't think you are qualified to make major changes to the design. > That's a personal opinion, and I grant that there are exceptions, but > I have also heard a lot of designers stories about how amateurs made > changes to their designs that made them unsafe. > > It's not just that the designer deserves payment for his work, but > that his work will save you money and contribute to your success. > > Peter > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1416|1416|2003-03-13 09:30:37|greenguy2ca|Steel|I also could not find steel 36'x8' in Ontario despite an exhaustive search and many phone calls. BC is your best bet. My project was initiated on Vancouver Island because of the ready supply of all kinds of new & scrap materials plus this is the best place to get "how to" help and ideas. Gary| 1417|1413|2003-03-13 10:44:26|jalborey|Re: New member|Nadim, There are, as far as I know, two other good metal boatbuilding forums; the Metal Boats Discussion in Boatbuilding.com (not much going on in this one lately), and the Metal Boat Society's forum, which is a really good one. Don't know of any origami boatbuilder in Sweden. Hope this helps Jesús --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > Hi all, > > I though I'd present myself shortly. Nadim, 35, father, computer eng. and > not directly using English in my everyday's life. > > I took me quite a while before deciding to join this group as my interrests > are not directly in origammiboats. I read _all_ the archive and I finally > joined as I think I have a few ideas to share and there is certainly lots > of ideas and experience to get from this group. > > The one thing that might make me an 'heretic' in this group is that I don't > like to sail! it's better than motor ones way around but still I don't > like sailling much (I get bored). But I sure like boats and I love > building things. I had a boat build and I was working on it too so I have > practical experience. > > I plan to build another boat in the comming years and I already started > writting ideas down. The boat won't be an origamiboat, as it doesn't > scale, but I still think the idea is very good. > > I'll have trillion questions and I hopefully can answer some. > > Question of the day: Except this group, are there other sympatical groups, > specially on metal boats and catamarans, around? I am quite allergic to > 'Designer non sense' like some other users in this group ;-). > > Second question of the day (00:00 just passed): are there any origamiboats > build in Sweden, particularely in the south. It would be very educating to > touch and feel one. > > Nadim. | 1418|1416|2003-03-13 14:22:59|John Jones|Re: Steel|FOUND IT Cheque out "Russel Metals" in Mississauga Ontario who have in stock 30',40',50'X 8'& 10'.... The 40'X 8'X 3/16" currently goes at $1150.00 per sheet plus taxes. E-mail 905-819-7337 Terry Butler. He says they have it in stock right now.......John ---------- >From: "greenguy2ca" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Steel >Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2003, 9:30 > > I also could not find steel 36'x8' in Ontario despite an exhaustive > search and many phone calls. BC is your best bet. My project was > initiated on Vancouver Island because of the ready supply of all > kinds of new & scrap materials plus this is the best place to > get "how to" help and ideas. > > > Gary > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1419|1413|2003-03-13 16:20:30|nadim|Re: New member|Thank you "Jalborey" for your answer. I want to know where my money goes,like most in this forum I guess, I apreciate when prices are given. unfortunately some of you live in the states other in canada. Could it be possible to write C$ or US$ when you give prices? Could those who are more intressted in catamarans speak up? Has any one expiremented in making a origami hull that is thin an long. I have one or two ideas about how to make a catamaran hull simply but none uses origami. I'd be interested in a hul 60 foot long and 7 foot at widest beam. There was an australian wanting to well half a pipe in the middle of his hull, is he still around? A discussion I'd like to be involved in is how much a complete boat would cost, not just the hull. I know that it would depend on what is put in the boat and that is exactly the discussion that interests me. what is needed, how much does it cost and how to built it oneself but best of all, how to do without? I recently saw a picture of a (certainly very expensive) 60-70 foot sail boat with a huge Inmarsat A tracking antenna mounted on an arch, I couldn't stop myself from laughing loud at the silly image. One thing is sure, money doens't make people smart(er). Nadim.| 1420|1413|2003-03-13 17:28:52|Gary H. Lucas|Re: New member|Nadim, Long skinny hulls should be very easy to do by origami, if you don't mind a long hard chine for most of the hull. Wide hulls are much more difficult to do in Origami. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "nadim" To: Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New member > Thank you "Jalborey" for your answer. > > I want to know where my money goes,like most in this forum I guess, I > apreciate when prices are given. unfortunately some of you live in the > states other in canada. Could it be possible to write C$ or US$ when you > give prices? > > Could those who are more intressted in catamarans speak up? Has any one > expiremented in making a origami hull that is thin an long. I have one or > two ideas about how to make a catamaran hull simply but none uses origami. > > I'd be interested in a hul 60 foot long and 7 foot at widest beam. There > was an australian wanting to well half a pipe in the middle of his hull, > is he still around? > > A discussion I'd like to be involved in is how much a complete boat would > cost, not just the hull. I know that it would depend on what is put in the > boat and that is exactly the discussion that interests me. what is needed, > how much does it cost and how to built it oneself but best of all, how to > do without? > > I recently saw a picture of a (certainly very expensive) 60-70 foot sail > boat with a huge Inmarsat A tracking antenna mounted on an arch, I > couldn't stop myself from laughing loud at the silly image. One thing is > sure, money doens't make people smart(er). > > Nadim. > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1421|1413|2003-03-13 18:29:41|nadim|Origami catamaran hulls|On Thursday 13 March 2003 23:28, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Nadim, > Long skinny hulls should be very easy to do by origami, if you don't > mind a long hard chine for most of the hull. Wide hulls are much more > difficult to do in Origami. > Gary, I forgot to give you one element, the hull should be a very shallow draft. but I don't think it changes too much the problem at hand. Lets forget about aesthetics for a moment and concentrate on mechanics and hydrodynamic. some people object to the hard chine of Brent's design but mechanically I believe it brings great strength to the hull. The hard chine is an angle iron of great dimensions. It is also a weak point because of the lack of elasticity at the chine (compared with the rest of the hull). I haven't seen any real size swain boat but I think the hard chine would be quite strait (most 'traditional' hard chine designs have curved chines). This brings me to hydrodynamics or to keep it simple (to myself mainly) the form of the hull. Say I'd like a hull shape that is quite sharp in the bow and quite wide in the stern. Wouldn't that be incompatible with the long strait chine? What about draft? If I was to build a catamaran, I wouldn't want it to have more than 50-60 cm of draft. The swain design seems to be quite deep V. (Again, I would really love to touch and feel on a real boat, any Swedish contructor?) I also understand why the boats are designed up to 40 foot. A narrow 60 foot hull would be very floppy and hard to make stand I think. Because I 've already build a real big fat heavy boat, I know that the traditional way of building boats is just plain silly. This said, I'd like to give _my_ opinion on the aesthetics of the swains design. "WHO CARES ABOUT A CHINE???" specially if underwater. I've seen a lot of beautiful boats and many more ugly ones. The ugly ones where used, the beautiful one, most often, not! Swain design is neither beautiful nor ugly but it is sure practical. I would recommend anyone who looks at a swain design and thinks: "is it beautiful? what about the chine" to buy themselves an X-box and spend the rest of their life's playing games on the Internet. Nadim.| 1422|1413|2003-03-13 18:44:58|Jim Phillips|Nadim's cat|Hi Nadim, Yeah, that crazy Aussie wanting to weld half an aluminium pipe in the middle of each hull is still here. I haven't got my pipes yet, and the plans and ideas are still taking shape. I don't think origami is really appropriate for cat hulls. The resistance of a cat has more to do with the wetted surface area of the hull, not the displacement. Therefore the hulls of a cat should to be close to semi-circular in section to reduce the wetted area. This is especially crucial if you want to get decent light air performance, and light airs are a more frequent problem than heavy weather when you are cruising. The origami method just doesn't produce the right shape, which means you would probably be better off getting the half-pipes for the hulls and then welding on the topsides and deck. Of course, a modified origami method could be used for the bow and stern sections which will be respectively steeper and flatter than the central part of the hull. Due to the inherent need to keep a cat light, it would have to be built in aluminium and needs to be a good 50 foot or so before it becomes a logical choice of material. Nadim, you mentioned 60' hulls with 7' beams. Is this the waterline beam or the actual hull beam? Depending on what you intend to do with it (cross oceans or have a floating caravan?), you need to think of an adequate waterline length:beam ratio. I now want at least 11 or 12:1. Chris White has some interesting comments on this in his book and on his website. Right now, we are putting money together and have not commenced building. Still wallowing in the nostalgia of past cruises and planning for the next! Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.| 1423|1423|2003-03-13 18:51:05|put_to_sea|Converting designs to origami|I like Brent's designs but I just can't leave well enough alone. I have been toying with the idea of converting some other designs to origami construction. I have read the posts of some of you that are using Rino, etc. but I'm not that high tech and I am not sure I understand all the discussion. My question is: If a single chine hull was designed to be plated in steel or plywood, is it always possible to unwrap the skin of each half into a flat plate that could then be pulled together origami style? I have been intending to build a model of one of Buehler's designs to try this on but being always short on time, I thought I would ask first. Thanks, Amos| 1424|1413|2003-03-13 19:57:23|nadim|Re: Nadim's cat|On Friday 14 March 2003 00:44, Jim Phillips wrote: > Yeah, that crazy Aussie wanting to weld half an > aluminium pipe in the middle of each hull is still > here. I haven't got my pipes yet, and the plans and > ideas are still taking shape. Hi, I am glad you are still here. I don't know if our subject is best suited on this forum be we can continue here till we get get kicked out. I can always start a mailing list on my own server if needed. But I think there many part of our discussion that might interest the swain boat owners or owners to be. > I don't think origami is really appropriate for cat > hulls. Neither do I, but I wouldn't mind being proved wrong. >The resistance of a cat has more to do with > the wetted surface area of the hull Could you please explain this in more details. I don't see what the wetted area has to do with resistance! > Therefore the hulls of a cat should to > be close to semi-circular in section to reduce the > wetted area. This is especially crucial if you want > to get decent light air performance, and light airs > are a more frequent problem than heavy weather when > you are cruising. I guess you know of http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm The generated hull is quite semi circular, if I am not wrong, the display is wrong as the hull should be half that wide in the 3D display. I plan to start from such a hull. > The origami method just doesn't > produce the right shape, which means you would > probably be better off getting the half-pipes for the > hulls and then welding on the topsides and deck. Can't agree more. Here is my plan : 1/ build a frame representing the hull at water level 2/ repeat point 1 3 times as both hull are symmetrical and I don't mind having strength top sides as the frame can be constructed simultaneously you get exactly the same shape. 3/ produce 4 top sides, basically 4 rectangles, and weld angle iron longitudinal (this is a directly picked from the origami method), transverse frame can very easily be added when the hull is up. A propos, transversal framing, I read a mail where the guy was more or less saying "what kind of a designer would draw a hull were the furniture are used to make the hull more rigid?". A smart one. 4/ build the hulls on one of the frames, that part being 50-60 cm high, it should be too difficult to get it done We now have 4 pieces per hull that need to be welded together. The pieces are big but not unmanageable at all, have a party and offer some beers and you'll get all the man power needed to hold the hull will you point weld it. > Due to the inherent need to keep a cat light, it would > have to be built in aluminium... so before it becomes a logical choice of > material. I don't agree and I'd like to discuss it later. There is nothing religious in choosing a material and I am ready to fight (verbally) to prove that steel is a better choice. I hope you can make me change mind.(yes it is possible but tough) > and needs to be a good 50 foot > Nadim, you mentioned 60' hulls with 7' beams. Is this > the waterline beam or the actual hull beam? > Chris White has some interesting comments on > this in his book and on his website. could you please send a link. Agreed, 50 foot sounds like a lower limit. I am a _not_direct supported of imperial measures so I switch to my favorite metric system. I'd like a 18 * 2 meters hull that's a 9/1 ratio. I don't think there is much to gain with a 11 or 12/1 ratio. but you loose a lot of space for the same length. 18 * 1.8 m is also OK but I want a thick insulation that would make the boat unsinkable too. In the mail I read you talked about 2 other points, one I completely disagree with and a second I agree with. You talked about having overhang, why would you like overhang in a catamaran bow? It's the place in the boat that gives you the less buoyancy, you are going to exacerbate pitching and it's so narrow you can't stock anything there and it is mechanically fragile. If the side plates over the hull are 2 meters high, I would make them 1m or less at the bow qnd zithout overhang. The other point was 'cheating' the water line by making the hull longer but not necessarily use the extra length as an habitable area. I saw a picture of a catamaran that had 2m plus at the rear that consist of stairs and a fantastic boarding area that made getting in and out of a tender very easy. > Right now, we are putting money together and have not > commenced building. So am I, but I need to bounce some ideas with someone. What about mast and sail type? I also have some crazy ideas. Sideboard design? Capsizing/ unsinkable? Security, lifeboat, ....? Winch/furler? Engine propultion? Anchors? Painting? Interior? Maintenance? ... > Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little > time as possible in a boatyard. Talk for yourself, I am more intrested in building than sailing but I still want it to go fast, very fast. I can imagine my caravan parked on pacific island as long as someone else sails it there ;-) Nadim.| 1425|1412|2003-03-13 21:53:14|pvanderwaart|Re: plans-free?|> Thanks for the reply re: plans. I'm intruigued by your apparent assumption that I was in search of free plans. I think that if you review my original posting containing the request for plans and read it carefully you will see that I said I was looking for plans, or a source for plans. I apologize. I went with the 'hot button' response rather than a close reading of your post. As for sources of origami plans other than Swain, you should look through the message archives here since the topic has come up from time to time. Tanton is interested in new ideas and has an aluminum powerboat design that he calls 'origami', but I recall any origame steel saiboats. Int the Sept/Oct 1987 issue of Boatbuilder, there was an article by Gary N. Curtis about origami boatbuilding. That's the first place I ever saw it. He mentions that Claes Lundstrom Yacht Design in Sweden held US and British patents on origami methods. Curtis's address way back then was given as Silver Lining Yacht Sales, Pier 2 Berth 54, Long Beach, CA 90802. I would bet against that still being a viable address. A Goolge search on Lundstrom reveals that he went into the software side bigtime: http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/indexL.html and apparently still does boats. An inquiry there might produce a design or two, or another designer or two. PEter| 1426|1413|2003-03-13 22:55:25|Jim Phillips|Re: Nadim's cat|Nadim, Thanks for the comments. If we are bothering other Origami readers with this frameless metal cat discussion, please speak up and we'll shuffle off elsewhere. WETTED SURFACE AREA In answer to your question about wetted surface area, this is what I have learned (please correct me, anyone, if I stray from the accepted logic): Resistance is the force that slows down your boat and consists of two basic types: 1) wave making resistance, and 2) friction. The first is a result of all that water that you must push out of the way so that your boat can move forward. This obviously depends on the amount of water that must be pushed aside and is therefore directly related to the boat's displacement. Pushing the water aside produces a wave. The second part, friction, is caused by the flow of water over the hull. THis is related to the total surface area of the hull that has contact with the water. It is a totally different type of resistance to the wave making resistance. In the case of a cargo ship, the displacement and wave-making resistance are more important than the friction between the water and the hull. Hence the wetted surface area is less significant and the underwater profile resembles a rectangular box with a crude pointy end and allows efficient use of space for cargo. However a cat is so light and the profile is so long and skinny (like a knife), that the wave-making resistance is minimal. So the friction becomes the over-riding factor in limiting the cat's speed. So if you want to go FAST, you need to limit the friction and this is done by minimising the wetted surface area. For a given displacement, the semi-circle is the optimum shape. STEEL / ALUMINIUM As far as the steel/aluminium question goes, that has been extensively discussed elsewhere. It comes down to the maths of whether you want your cat to sail more than 5 knots or not. If you do, well, the steel is too heavy. Or build a 50 metre cat. :) We have always sailed steel boats. I firmly believe metal is the way to go and, in a monohull, you can choose between steel or aluminium. However, we have now taken the decision to go with a cat and, due to the weight limitations imposed on a cat, there is no choice but to use aluminium. There is plenty of discussion at the Metal Boat Society forum on this. YOUR PLAN Sounds like you have some very interesting, labour-saving ideas. However, I don't quite understand the bit about the four frames. Why does the deck need a frame? Once you have your half-pipe hull, don't you just weld on the topsides (4 rectangles for the 2 hulls), space them appropriately at the top with off-cut pieces of angle, and start welding the deck on to that? When do you plan to start construction? Any tentative ideas for a launch date, plus or minus 2 years? BOW OVERHANG As a teenager, we would wait for strong wind warnings and then take a 16' calypso cat (similar to a hobie) out for a whirl on Moreton Bay. After pitch-poling it numerous times and having a ball of fun, I have a fear of doing the same thing in a big cat in heavy weather. It's not probable, but is possible, so I want to minimise that possibility. The overhang is there as insurance, not for storage, or increased speed or anything else. When we're surfing down huge waves and I see that bow bury 5 metres into the trough, I want to feel confident that it will pop back up again. We have been through this in a steel mono off the Moroccon coast, running bare poles and burying that bow - exciting stuff in a mono, but dangerous in a cat. It is a logical argument to say that a cat, in the same situation, would throw out a drogue and slow down. This is true, but surely it is better to have reserve flotation designed into the boat, right where it may be needed to prevent pitch-poling, rather than rely on an item that may or may not be ready when needed? We are always bumping into objects around the coast, running on to beaches and reefs. It is one of the joys of having a metal boat and we have no shame in admitting it. Our boats always had a few battle scars above and below the waterline, but they went everywhere and took us on many adventures. Plastic boaters are quite different and must sail accordingly. Other yachties have beatiful boats but they never leave the marina. We are all different! Anyway, a bow overhang means the boat will rise up as it collides with an object, whereas a plumb bow will just collapse inwards. So you either take care where you can go and how you sail, or build in a design mechanism that takes care of it for you. Additionally, the space inside the overhang can be closed off and used as a collision bulkhead in the remote case that it is holed in this area. LENGTH : BEAM RATIO Rather than starting with a desired length and beam and accepting the ratio as appropriate, why not reorganise the sequence of the questions? Ask yourself, what beam is necessary to hold the accomodation and stores you need? What ratio do you need to get the perforance you would like? It is an interative process, but from this, you will arrive at the appropriate length and it may well be longer than 18 m. To increase the beam, you can always do this above the waterline. You only need to increase the beam below the waterline if you intend to increase the displacement of the entire boat. In terms of accomodation, a 14 m mono may well be equivalent to a 10 m cat with a bridgedeck. But if you want real cat performance you may decide to get rid of the bridedeck apartment and use the hulls for accomodation. Then you will need a WL beam of 1.8 - 2.2 m and therefore a length anywhere from 16 to 20 m. As far as rigging, engines etc, I'll paste in a previous email here. Some of these ideas are still evolving. Please give feedback - abusive, laughingly critical or whatever. 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. I don't understand why cats always have the wing deck below the level of the outer decks. Is it just a psychological safety issue to feel surrounded by the topsides of the hulls, or is there a structural reason? 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in port, the main function of any cockpit, will be on the central deck. 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V-ed, knife-shaped bow. 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'. Purpose is for beaching, not leeway reduction. 12. Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external centreboard. I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing deck. 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a sugar scoop stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond sugar scoop to enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder. 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering backed up by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the engine unless on a delivery. Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of skeg. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the normal rigging there is less potential for failure. The rig will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the wing deck. Please blow this logic down in flames. 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing). 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down. Could go on for hours, but there are a few points for discussion. So what's the point of building a boat if you are not going to sail it? Hey, Nadim, I have an idea! Why don't you build my cat and then I will come to Sweden and pick it up? We can both do what we prefer to do. Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.| 1427|1427|2003-03-14 01:05:56|Alex & Kim Christie|converting to origami|Lundstrom did a sailboat in aluminum using their software Touch 3-D. They did a very modern looking hull and they say it went together very easily. It may be of interest to someone looking for a more shallow-underbodied hull of lighter displacement. He has photos of it on his site still, I think: http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/indexL.html I think the software is $700 USD or so, but it might be handy for doing you own custom design using their plate-unwrapping technology. This might be a good way of converting any design to origami, in fact. A very cheap bit of software that needs no computer is the venerable piece of card paper or construction paper. Anything you model with this should work like any other sheet material, with the exception that steel changes shape when heated by welding. In any case, I'm not sure if boat design software takes heat distortion into account either. I asked Brent about converting other designs a few years ago; he said it wasn't really that difficult. Now, I didn't get all of what he said (partly from a thick skull, and also I was still just learning about origami at the time), but it basically involves: 1. Modeling your original chine hull first, then working out where you want it to be round bilged in the fore and aft sections -- usually bow and stern sections where you don't want the chine rising out of the water. 2. The next step would be to adjust the paper model's midsection to conform to the origami-type slices and darts. It may sound primitive, but you could just tape together your hull pieces as a chined hull, as per the original design, then simply decide how you want it to unwrap with an exacto knife or scissors. Brent's choice as to where to put the darts and slices is done so as to make use of the long lengths of steel, plus keeping weldments below the waterine whenever possible. I'd copy this protocol for obvious reasons. 3. After separating your model down the centreline, you can "unwrap" it (you'll use only one half, which you'll then replicate for both sides so all is symetrical), the same way a computer programme would, and lay it flat. As it is cut, so it will go back together -- no different than peeling an orange. 4. To make the bow and stern sections conic, you'd lay the unwrapped pattern from your model flat, then use it as a template for a new pattern, keeping in mind that where there were chines on the original model you'll be leaving the material in one piece so you can bend it into shape. When I have some time I'll monkey with this using card paper and try and post some images of what I find out. I've been pondering doing a skinny power-cruiser using origami method and this is probably the way I'd figure it out. There are many designs out there that would make excellent starting points for this type of craft. Alex| 1428|1413|2003-03-14 01:20:28|Alex & Kim Christie|Re: Nadim's cat|The cat idea is fine. Origami would work for long thin hulls, as others have mentioned, with the obvious exception that you'd have a chine below the water as per the monohulls. But would it work? Yes. It wouldn't yield exactly the type of hull section in a modern racing cat, but as long as it is a long skinny hull it will still have a speed advantage over a fat hull, even if wetted surface is higher than a U-shaped hull. Other than the chine, you could approximate the modern hull pretty closely, however. I think there are a few ideas out there already for quick-build cat hulls, however, that may be of interest: KSS by Derek Kelsall looks very origami-like, only using foam-sandwich that is first laid up on a long flat bed. The darts in the bottom run athwartships (this would not be a good idea with aluminum with the number of darts they show). http://www.kelsall.com/kss.htm Constant Camber --Jim Brown and John Marples. You have to like epoxy for this one! Also check out Tony Bigras' site about his Osram catamaran. This guy lived on our last island (Gabriola) and I got to see his boat close-up a few times as he was working on it. http://www.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/ These hulls could have been done in origami, as they are hard chine already. He estimated CDN $95,000 for completing the hull. He sold it as his marriage didn't last the building period. Makes you think... Alex| 1429|1416|2003-03-14 01:48:09|Claude Poitras|Re: Steel|I see that there is also a "Russel Metals" in Edmonton Alberta. They probably also sell the same size of steel. I believe that there is a few people, in Alberta, building an origami steal boat, in Alberta. I would love to know, where they got there steel. Since I live in Fort McMurray Alberta, It would be closer to home. Claude Poitras present sailboat (Claudius) in Bosun Charter -----Original Message----- From: John Jones [mailto:capt-john@...] Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:23 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel FOUND IT Cheque out "Russel Metals" in Mississauga Ontario who have in stock 30',40',50'X 8'& 10'.... The 40'X 8'X 3/16" currently goes at $1150.00 per sheet plus taxes. E-mail 905-819-7337 Terry Butler. He says they have it in stock right now.......John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1430|1430|2003-03-14 10:50:08|prairiemaidca|steel supply|Hi all: We purchased most of our steel from russel metals inc. 7016 99st nw edmonton. We have also delt with price steel in the west end of edm. By the way Claude we have your cladius booked for our annual bosuns charter this sept. We actually met I believe the first year you had the boat. P.S. there is no sales tax on the steel we buy here in Alberta Cdn.. Martin and Betty forster (Prairie Maid)| 1431|1413|2003-03-14 11:41:54|nelstomlinson|Re: New member|If you want to see some long, skinny hulls made by a similar method, Google on ``tortured ply''. That should turn up some pictures of canoes and catamarans made by cutting darts out of plywood. It might be easier to do what they show using metal than the thin plywood they worked with. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Nadim, > Long skinny hulls should be very easy to do by origami, if you don't mind a > long hard chine for most of the hull. Wide hulls are much more difficult to > do in Origami. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nadim" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New member > > > > Thank you "Jalborey" for your answer. > > > > I want to know where my money goes,like most in this forum I guess, I > > apreciate when prices are given. unfortunately some of you live in the > > states other in canada. Could it be possible to write C$ or US$ when you > > give prices? > > > > Could those who are more intressted in catamarans speak up? Has any one > > expiremented in making a origami hull that is thin an long. I have one or > > two ideas about how to make a catamaran hull simply but none uses origami. > > > > I'd be interested in a hul 60 foot long and 7 foot at widest beam. There > > was an australian wanting to well half a pipe in the middle of his hull, > > is he still around? > > > > A discussion I'd like to be involved in is how much a complete boat would > > cost, not just the hull. I know that it would depend on what is put in the > > boat and that is exactly the discussion that interests me. what is needed, > > how much does it cost and how to built it oneself but best of all, how to > > do without? > > > > I recently saw a picture of a (certainly very expensive) 60-70 foot sail > > boat with a huge Inmarsat A tracking antenna mounted on an arch, I > > couldn't stop myself from laughing loud at the silly image. One thing is > > sure, money doens't make people smart(er). > > > > Nadim. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > | 1432|1413|2003-03-14 19:23:18|nadim|Re: Nadim's cat|Hi all, I am very happy on how things are going on on this list. monohull lovers please join the discussion, this is a about a cat but a cat is just 2 monohulls put together. Jim and alex, thank you for your answers. I think the discussion is so big that we have to organize it. Take a piece at a time. What I need (and I think most builders need) is a design and construction plan, and I don't mind writting mine here. I'll buy brent's book, it's his plan and there are certainly lots of ideas in it. Before I answer jim's mail, I'd like to tell a little story. I thought about it when I saw brent's anchor winch. My point is not to laugh about it (it is functional, cheap and proven) but to put things in perspective when you have bigger boats. This is very much for you alex as a 40 footer is quite big. We anchored 100 meters from a small reef, in a place with lots of small reefs, it was blowing quite hard and I must say I didn't sleep much the first night because I was afraid we would derive and get on one of the reefs. The situation presented no real danger for the crew but it did for the boat. We used 2 anchors. anchor one 100 Kg + 7-8m 3/4chain and rope anchor another 3 tooth anchor I build with 3 scrap bolts from the boat construction +/- 35Kg + chain.. everything went fine but taking those anchors from the bottom (25 m) was not all that much fun. I couldn't stop myself of smilling when I saw brent's anchor winch. Brent what weight do you use for your anchor? you system certainly works fine but I am not used to small boats. what if you want to use 2 or 3 or 4 anchors. how do you get them out? Now I'd like to answer jim. I will not answer all questions because it would quickly become unredeable. May be someone has an idea on how to organize this discussion. On Friday 14 March 2003 04:55, Jim Phillips wrote: > WETTED SURFACE AREA > In the case of a cargo ship, ... the > underwater profile resembles a rectangular box with a > crude pointy end and allows efficient use of space for > cargo. hmmm, I used to think the same but you are wrong, most cargoships have very nice underwater profiles. Where is the answer to my question? It all started with hull resistance (I meant mechanical restance). Anyhow I agree on what you wrote. > STEEL / ALUMINIUM > As far as the steel/aluminium question goes, that has > been extensively discussed elsewhere. It comes down > to the maths of whether you want your cat to sail more > than 5 knots or not. If you do, well, the steel is > too heavy. Even if this has been discussed elsewhere I'd like to discuss it too. I'd like to convince you that steel is better but what I am really looking for is to be convinces that aluminium is better. Now building in aluminium saves weight, according to certain sources, the saving is something like 25%. For some boat shape, doubling the boat weight doesn't half the speed, then one could make the boat with a slightly wider beam. So are all the problems associated with aluminium worth taking for the 0.5 to 1 knot diffrence between my steel boat and your aluminium boat? Alex named Osram VII, yest it's a very nice boat but count the hours. I have the whole Osram VII in a single pdf if someone wants it. > YOUR PLAN > Sounds like you have some very interesting, > labour-saving ideas. > However, I don't quite understand the bit about the > four frames. Why does the deck need a frame? Wether you build a frame first or when the hull is up, the deck always have a frame. You might call it webbing (longitudinal and transvers support for the deck) but I call it frame because it is constructed first. The advantage of constructing 2 frames per hull are: - They will have exactly the same shape if you want to. - The frames are constructed on the floor, which is much easier than in the air. - The frame will give your side plates the right shape without spending hours mesuring in the air (which is very error prone) I also think hulls should be build upside down when the top of the hull is a straight ligne. having an 18 meters hull (the under water body in a shallow draft hull) suspended in the air is not all that difficult as the weight is not more than 1.5T. Is it possible to attach drawing to our mails? > When do you plan to start construction? 2 years +/- 2 years. But it's all about feeling ready with the construction plan (and the money of course). Had I wanted a mono hull, I'd buy a Swain plan and start this summer. > BOW OVERHANG I won't repeat your text here, those who need it might look in the archive. a 16' cat has nothing to do with an 18m one when it comes to stability period. Now your concern about pitch polling is right but I think you fix the problem in the worst way. When the bow of your ship is in the air, the extra weight will induce an extra rotating moment. That is you will pitch even more and worse much faster and much more often. I think the way to go is give more boyancy to you bow and accept loosing 0.25 knot by not having a needle shaped ship. you could also do that by making the boyancy of your stern higher without the overhang. This is all about balance so let's take an example: You and I build 2 boats that are similar except the bow. I remove half the height of the bow on the 3 - 4 first meters of the bow you add 1-2 meters extra overhand. let's compare weight (I take steel, reduce by whatever factor you feel right for aluminium). The sides being vertical, the weight gaine is from the side plates only. say I gain 8 square meters at 3 mm thickness. That's - 200Kg. The extra overhang you hadd might be around 75 Kg. Now you have 275 extra Kg with a lever of 5-10 meters trying to pitch your hull. and you have 2 of those. Mechanically the boats will be diffrent. The boat with overhang being less rigid. I do agree with you though. Good boyancy in the bow is very important and in my examples I loose boyancy by removing part of the hull at the bow.For the same length of hull (and mechanical strength apart) you get a hull with more boyancy but a greater tendency to pitch and I get a hull with lower boyancy but less likely to pitch. What about making the bow smaller but change the (over water line) hull shape to give more boyancy? and still having a very simple construction? > Anyway, a > bow overhang means the boat will rise up as it > collides with an object, whereas a plumb bow will just > collapse inwards. Right and right but it means you collide with something that is in the air. I don't say it never happends because I saw an indonesian boat collide with an other at 90 degrees angle. the keel of the colliding boat got on the deck of the other boat. then it just sleeped back in the water. Those boats are extreme because there bow have an extreme overhang. and they also pitch like hell (even the doubled ended ones) and you don't need big waves for that. > Additionally, the space inside the overhang can be > closed off and used as a collision bulkhead in the > remote case that it is holed in this area. For me a overhang is always in the air, so the hole would be in the air too. Even if the bow is sometimes under water not much water would get in. now I wouldn't mind having a bulkhead but : - how do you build a bulkhead in such a narrow area? - the bulkhead has to be flexible (seems that lot of people think the more rigid the better as they think strength bulkhead and watertightness bulkhead are buil in the same way). > LENGTH : BEAM RATIO it seems to me we more or less agree on the dimentions of the hull. You asked if I needed a caravan or a racer. Without any doubt a caravan. But I'd like it to go fast. Some statistics are always intressting, I gathered this from the internet and other sources so it might not be right but it's still a start point. Mediteranean yachts sail an average of 3 and a half days per year. (They are build accordingly). World cruising boats sail less than 10% of the time. How much of that time is at high seas would be intressting to know. 1 of 12 boats cruising close to reefs (that's were all want to sail I think) stay put on the reef for ever and serves as very nice housing for the local fish. So it seems that sailling is not the prevalent activity on a boat even world cruising. So the boat is a caravan 90% of the time. Do you want your house to be confortable? Where do you put the stuff you buy to locals. where do you put the beach catamaran you have so much fun with? where do you put the bikes that are so practical when you get on land? where .... A good boat is a one where one sleeps good and the sailor can gets his energy back. Go to any 'super designed' mono yacht site and have a look at the pictures. The boat is often angles 40 degrees on the pictures but the beds are hopelessly flat and without any board to keep you in them. Worse they are double beds. I'd like to see how they sleep in those when the boat is heeling. You must be able to run in a boat without hurting yourself. The engine must be confined to an area sealed from the living area and that is also for the diesel tanks. etc ... this how I calculate the beam and from there the length of the hull. sailing around in a small boat is fine but at shore you find yourself living in a floating tin can. > As far as rigging, engines etc, I'll paste in a > previous email here. Some of these ideas are still > evolving. Please give feedback - abusive, laughingly > critical or whatever. I'll make myself the devils advocate and try to give your ideas a bad time. > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be > decked with planks to allow "percolation" of waves > during rough seas. I really wonder were you are going to sail to get such bad conditions. the percolating is a good idea but where are you going to find the waves that jump over your 2 meters high hull and crash 5 meters in your boat? The wing deck gives you a _lot_ of extra boyancy. I see the following problems with an habitable wingdeck: - Weight - Aerodynamic - The cat can't be separated in two hull for transport Not having one: - Boyancy - Habitability - Slightly more complicated controls as they must be doubled - Safety of going on a slick deck at night from one steering position to the other, get hit by a bird or a flying fish and you are history. > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. If I understand you right , the wing deck is just there to keep the hull apart. If they have a clearance of 1.2m then the height of the overwater hull would also be 1.2. If you need a clearance of 1.9m for you to live and have a minimum of 20 centimeters bellow the floor, making the hull 2.1 meters hight -1.2m water clearance of the wingdeck that's 0.9 meters draft. 1 of 3 thing is right choose: - you get your 1.2-1.5m clearance by design (with a normal draft) - you have 0.9m draft and I seriously propose reconsidering your design - you are going to have less than 1.9m head clearance in your huls and I will either applaude if you learn to live like arabs on the floor (this is done in a lot of indonesian boats where the head clearance is sometimes +/- 1.3 m you sit in the cabine, as you can't stand) or laugh at you if you live like a bend_in_the_middle european. > I don't > understand why cats always have the wing deck below > the level of the outer decks. Is it just a > psychological safety issue to feel surrounded by the > topsides of the hulls, or is there a structural > reason? ENORMOUS structural diffrence. I think 1m wing deck clearance is enough, but it all dependends on how wide your cat is. the wider the cat the higher the wingdeck. If you met the waves at 90° then the hulls keep the wingdeck at constant hight. if you meet the waves at 0° then the top of the wave might touch you wingdeck. so high wing deck clerance is needed when you have high and very chopy sea and you meet it at 0°. I don't think this happends often. > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and > reefing lines. Socialising in port, the main function > of any cockpit, will be on the central deck. Is the cockpit to be sealed from the elements or open? Are you going to double all the sheets, halyard... to have control in each hull? > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using > frameless technique. Had you choosen steel, you could cut your plates yourself. Be sure to check the discutions about the NCcut plates. Is it worth it? I think you and I have the same the same philosophy, we want something that is right by design. I also think that NCcut plates are wrong by design. The right design doesn't need machinery. That's where Swain design is best IMO. > If necessary, bulkheads go in > afterwards? If your boat isn't unsinkable, bulkheads are a must. I'll want to have unsikable with bulkhead. > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > flotation. Fairly V-ed, knife-shaped bow. See Above > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. That minimizes only half of the pitching, that is backwards. too flat stern and you acentuate the pitching forward. The good thing is that you can always weld on some extra boyancy tank in the bow if it doesn't work as you want. not high tech design but cheap and effective. I wouldn't hesitate a second to make a 'beautifull unstable boat' an 'ugly stable boat'. > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, > off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it > lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and > bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet > surface area, construction time and cost (less > welding). what draft do you want to have? semi circular is going to make you boat deeper than more flatish shapes > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than > 3', preferably 2'. Purpose is for beaching, not > leeway reduction. You loose me here. Leeway reduction is best done with side board in a catamaran they are as long as you want and add nil when retracted (I also belive they should retract automaticaly). So what would your draft be without your keel and skeg. What would it be with them? Leave Keel and skegs to monohulks which need them and instead weld an extra 6 mm plate at the bottom of hull to slide on. > 12. Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or > two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings > - like an external centreboard. I don't want the > hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the > performance of the lee board and the convenience of > minimal draft and being able to run aground. Hallelouia. > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom > can actually be "inboard" by using a sugar scoop stern > to increase waterline length and provide steep > boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so > beyond sugar scoop to enable installation of a trim > tab on each rudder. Hmm I'd like to see a drawing of your inboard rudder. I think what you describe comes close to what I wrote above about the boat which had nice boarding possibility. What about having the rudders fixed on the beam between the hulls, it won't be at the end of the boat thus loosing some eficiency. > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering > thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that > will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering backed up > by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab > via Morse control. OK. but I am more on the hydraulic steering myself, with a direct backup in the form of a tiller. > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We > detest using the engine unless on a delivery. Ideally > a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of > skeg. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Brent had a very nice description of his adventures with an outboard. A 15m+ cat is a ship not a canot. If you think you can do without the extra safety an engine gives you, then go for the outboard otherwise a more 'definitive' solution is needed. Now marin engines are expensive, too expensive for what they are. I think there are other solutions like truck and car engines. I'll gladely discuss this. The most important point with engines (except the engines themselves) is where they are placed? how do you do maintenance on them? and if you have a wife and/or kids how do you COMPLETELY separate it from the living quarter? > 17. Rig to > be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both > cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is > already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is > sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to > an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all > the normal rigging there is less potential for > failure. The rig will be biplane because it keeps the > centre of effort lower than having one central mast. > And structurally it makes more sense to have a > keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on > the wing deck. Please blow this logic down in flames. I'll counter backwards. The one point where I agree with you is about masts being stepped in the hull instead of the middle of the wingdeck. I disagree with the rest. Stayed masts are proven, carbon masts are not and I repeat it again they are not, do not give me one or two example I can give you millions of stayed masts examples. What is the price of a 19m carbon mast? 17 meters above deck plus 2 for the stepping. Multiply by 2 with since you'll have two masts. The staying of a mast doesn't cost that much on a boat you build yourself. How do you reduce the sail area easily? Do you think it's easy to handle double sail, sheets and halyard (multiplied by 2 sterring positions). My idea for the rig is even less tested than yours but I think it's simple, cheaper and easier to handle. > 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them > hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise > disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be > oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make > it free standing). Track = failure if you don't buy real good stuff, read expensive. What are the other guys in the list using and what problems did they encounter? I'll keep you sweaty a bit more by telling you I think there is a solution. > 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing > deck and hulls. I don't know what a bimi is, could you explain? > Solar panels to go on top Hmm, please tell me you are not going to have an internet connection on your boat ;-) Save the money from the solar panel and buy a mini generator (diesel). I knwo I am going to be flammed but think about it seriously and when you are ready we can discuss all the cases where diesel generator is better than a silly 15 WH solar panel. > So what's the point of building a boat if you are not > going to sail it? The point is building the boat. I can be on it when other sail it. > Hey, Nadim, I have an idea! Why > don't you build my cat and then I will come to Sweden > and pick it up? We can both do what we prefer to do. :) As I wrote at the top of this mail, I think we should divide the discussion in sections and take a section at a time. If you want, we can seriously discuss your boat point by point and then mine or we could take each point (material, share, construction, tooling, ....) and discuss both boats at the same time. Let me know how you want to go on. Nadim. | 1433|1413|2003-03-14 19:42:50|nadim|Re: New member|On Friday 14 March 2003 17:41, nelstomlinson wrote: > If you want to see some long, skinny hulls made by a similar method, > Google on ``tortured ply''. That should turn up some pictures of > canoes and catamarans made by cutting darts out of plywood. It might > be easier to do what they show using metal than the thin plywood they > worked with. Thanks, I'll have a look. Alex send a link to Lundström's web site. The intressting page is: http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html I heard a story about 2 guys drifting 4 month an a reversed cat. Does any one have a link? For a good laugh try: http://www.paritetboat.com/ellips.shtml Nadim.| 1434|1413|2003-03-14 20:31:33|Michael Casling|Re: Origami catamaran hulls|Nadim wrote: Lets forget about aesthetics for a moment and concentrate on mechanics and hydrodynamic. some people object to the hard chine of Brent's design but mechanically I believe it brings great strength to the hull. The hard chine is an angle iron of great dimensions. It is also a weak point because of the lack of elasticity at the chine (compared with the rest of the hull). I haven't seen any real size swain boat but I think the hard chine would be quite strait (most 'traditional' hard chine designs have curved chines). The only Swain hull I have seen is a 40 footer. Personally I do not think the hard chine is a detriment in any way. Any deep hull will have a hard chine down the middle which poses no problem. The water enters the leading edge of the Swain hard chine very gently. If we compare it to a race boat then it will be slower but for a cruiser it is fine and probably quicker than the full keel cruisers. Brent has mentioned more than once about the tracking ability of the boats. A boat that steers straight will be quicker than one that does not. On the cover of Pacific Yachting January 2003 is a lovely looking slab sided hard chine boat. Anyone know what it is? Michael Casling Kelowna BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1435|1413|2003-03-14 23:22:38|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Origami catamaran hulls|I noticed the other day that the boat on the yahoo origami cover page looked familiar. Then I realized it was because it was the photo I took of Dale Deforest's 36' boat! I can testify that the boat tracked like it was on rails. In fact it took real effort on the tiller to move it off the track! The boat is cutter rigged and we were flying both the working jib and staysail with a full main. The boat seemed to move very well. We had to tack back and forth up the bay to return as the wind blowing right down the bay. I noticed the boat was not as close winded as the other fiberglass boats of similar size around us. Our speed through the water was about the same, but we fell a little short of the other boats at each tack. We weren't of course trying to race, or trimming the sails closely. Considering the displacement of Dales boat and how spacious it is down below I would have been amazed if it wasn't slower to some degree. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Origami catamaran hulls > Nadim wrote: > > Lets forget about aesthetics for a moment and concentrate on mechanics and > hydrodynamic. some people object to the hard chine of Brent's design but > mechanically I believe it brings great strength to the hull. The hard > chine is an angle iron of great dimensions. It is also a weak point > because of the lack of elasticity at the chine (compared with the rest of > the hull). I haven't seen any real size swain boat but I think the hard > chine would be quite strait (most 'traditional' hard chine designs have > curved chines). > > The only Swain hull I have seen is a 40 footer. Personally I do not think the hard chine is a detriment in any way. Any deep hull will have a hard chine down the middle which poses no problem. The water enters the leading edge of the Swain hard chine very gently. If we compare it to a race boat then it will be slower but for a cruiser it is fine and probably quicker than the full keel cruisers. Brent has mentioned more than once about the tracking ability of the boats. A boat that steers straight will be quicker than one that does not. On the cover of Pacific Yachting January 2003 is a lovely looking slab sided hard chine boat. Anyone know what it is? > Michael Casling Kelowna BC > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1436|1413|2003-03-15 12:11:07|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Osram VII Nadim's cat|Dear Nadim Kindly email me the pdf File I would like to look at the drawings Email it to sharadsharma@... On 15 Mar 2003 at 1:26, nadim wrote: Hi all, I am very happy on how things are going on on this list. monohull lovers please join the discussion, this is a about a cat but a cat is just 2 monohulls put together. Jim and alex, thank you for your answers. I think the discussion is so big that we have to organize it. Take a piece at a time. What I need (and I think most builders need) is a design and construction plan, and I don't mind writting mine here. I'll buy brent's book, it's his plan and there are certainly lots of ideas in it. Before I answer jim's mail, I'd like to tell a little story. I thought about it when I saw brent's anchor winch. My point is not to laugh about it (it is functional, cheap and proven) but to put things in perspective when you have bigger boats. This is very much for you alex as a 40 footer is quite big. We anchored 100 meters from a small reef, in a place with lots of small reefs, it was blowing quite hard and I must say I didn't sleep much the first night because I was afraid we would derive and get on one of the reefs. The situation presented no real danger for the crew but it did for the boat. We used 2 anchors. anchor one 100 Kg + 7-8m 3/4chain and rope anchor another 3 tooth anchor I build with 3 scrap bolts from the boat construction +/- 35Kg + chain.. everything went fine but taking those anchors from the bottom (25 m) was not all that much fun. I couldn't stop myself of smilling when I saw brent's anchor winch. Brent what weight do you use for your anchor? you system certainly works fine but I am not used to small boats. what if you want to use 2 or 3 or 4 anchors. how do you get them out? Now I'd like to answer jim. I will not answer all questions because it would quickly become unredeable. May be someone has an idea on how to organize this discussion. On Friday 14 March 2003 04:55, Jim Phillips wrote: > WETTED SURFACE AREA > In the case of a cargo ship, ... the > underwater profile resembles a rectangular box with a > crude pointy end and allows efficient use of space for > cargo. hmmm, I used to think the same but you are wrong, most cargoships have very nice underwater profiles. Where is the answer to my question? It all started with hull resistance (I meant mechanical restance). Anyhow I agree on what you wrote. > STEEL / ALUMINIUM > As far as the steel/aluminium question goes, that has > been extensively discussed elsewhere. It comes down > to the maths of whether you want your cat to sail more > than 5 knots or not. If you do, well, the steel is > too heavy. Even if this has been discussed elsewhere I'd like to discuss it too. I'd like to convince you that steel is better but what I am really looking for is to be convinces that aluminium is better. Now building in aluminium saves weight, according to certain sources, the saving is something like 25%. For some boat shape, doubling the boat weight doesn't half the speed, then one could make the boat with a slightly wider beam. So are all the problems associated with aluminium worth taking for the 0.5 to 1 knot diffrence between my steel boat and your aluminium boat? Alex named Osram VII, yest it's a very nice boat but count the hours. I have the whole Osram VII in a single pdf if someone wants it. > YOUR PLAN > Sounds like you have some very interesting, > labour-saving ideas. > However, I don't quite understand the bit about the > four frames. Why does the deck need a frame? Wether you build a frame first or when the hull is up, the deck always have a frame. You might call it webbing (longitudinal and transvers support for the deck) but I call it frame because it is constructed first. The advantage of constructing 2 frames per hull are: - They will have exactly the same shape if you want to. - The frames are constructed on the floor, which is much easier than in the air. - The frame will give your side plates the right shape without spending hours mesuring in the air (which is very error prone) I also think hulls should be build upside down when the top of the hull is a straight ligne. having an 18 meters hull (the under water body in a shallow draft hull) suspended in the air is not all that difficult as the weight is not more than 1.5T. Is it possible to attach drawing to our mails? > When do you plan to start construction? 2 years +/- 2 years. But it's all about feeling ready with the construction plan (and the money of course). Had I wanted a mono hull, I'd buy a Swain plan and start this summer. > BOW OVERHANG I won't repeat your text here, those who need it might look in the archive. a 16' cat has nothing to do with an 18m one when it comes to stability period. Now your concern about pitch polling is right but I think you fix the problem in the worst way. When the bow of your ship is in the air, the extra weight will induce an extra rotating moment. That is you will pitch even more and worse much faster and much more often. I think the way to go is give more boyancy to you bow and accept loosing 0.25 knot by not having a needle shaped ship. you could also do that by making the boyancy of your stern higher without the overhang. This is all about balance so let's take an example: You and I build 2 boats that are similar except the bow. I remove half the height of the bow on the 3 - 4 first meters of the bow you add 1-2 meters extra overhand. let's compare weight (I take steel, reduce by whatever factor you feel right for aluminium). The sides being vertical, the weight gaine is from the side plates only. say I gain 8 square meters at 3 mm thickness. That's - 200Kg. The extra overhang you hadd might be around 75 Kg. Now you have 275 extra Kg with a lever of 5-10 meters trying to pitch your hull. and you have 2 of those. Mechanically the boats will be diffrent. The boat with overhang being less rigid. I do agree with you though. Good boyancy in the bow is very important and in my examples I loose boyancy by removing part of the hull at the bow.For the same length of hull (and mechanical strength apart) you get a hull with more boyancy but a greater tendency to pitch and I get a hull with lower boyancy but less likely to pitch. What about making the bow smaller but change the (over water line) hull shape to give more boyancy? and still having a very simple construction? > Anyway, a > bow overhang means the boat will rise up as it > collides with an object, whereas a plumb bow will just > collapse inwards. Right and right but it means you collide with something that is in the air. I don't say it never happends because I saw an indonesian boat collide with an other at 90 degrees angle. the keel of the colliding boat got on the deck of the other boat. then it just sleeped back in the water. Those boats are extreme because there bow have an extreme overhang. and they also pitch like hell (even the doubled ended ones) and you don't need big waves for that. > Additionally, the space inside the overhang can be > closed off and used as a collision bulkhead in the > remote case that it is holed in this area. For me a overhang is always in the air, so the hole would be in the air too. Even if the bow is sometimes under water not much water would get in. now I wouldn't mind having a bulkhead but : - how do you build a bulkhead in such a narrow area? - the bulkhead has to be flexible (seems that lot of people think the more rigid the better as they think strength bulkhead and watertightness bulkhead are buil in the same way). > LENGTH : BEAM RATIO it seems to me we more or less agree on the dimentions of the hull. You asked if I needed a caravan or a racer. Without any doubt a caravan. But I'd like it to go fast. Some statistics are always intressting, I gathered this from the internet and other sources so it might not be right but it's still a start point. Mediteranean yachts sail an average of 3 and a half days per year. (They are build accordingly). World cruising boats sail less than 10% of the time. How much of that time is at high seas would be intressting to know. 1 of 12 boats cruising close to reefs (that's were all want to sail I think) stay put on the reef for ever and serves as very nice housing for the local fish. So it seems that sailling is not the prevalent activity on a boat even world cruising. So the boat is a caravan 90% of the time. Do you want your house to be confortable? Where do you put the stuff you buy to locals. where do you put the beach catamaran you have so much fun with? where do you put the bikes that are so practical when you get on land? where .... A good boat is a one where one sleeps good and the sailor can gets his energy back. Go to any 'super designed' mono yacht site and have a look at the pictures. The boat is often angles 40 degrees on the pictures but the beds are hopelessly flat and without any board to keep you in them. Worse they are double beds. I'd like to see how they sleep in those when the boat is heeling. You must be able to run in a boat without hurting yourself. The engine must be confined to an area sealed from the living area and that is also for the diesel tanks. etc ... this how I calculate the beam and from there the length of the hull. sailing around in a small boat is fine but at shore you find yourself living in a floating tin can. > As far as rigging, engines etc, I'll paste in a > previous email here. Some of these ideas are still > evolving. Please give feedback - abusive, laughingly > critical or whatever. I'll make myself the devils advocate and try to give your ideas a bad time. > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be > decked with planks to allow "percolation" of waves > during rough seas. I really wonder were you are going to sail to get such bad conditions. the percolating is a good idea but where are you going to find the waves that jump over your 2 meters high hull and crash 5 meters in your boat? The wing deck gives you a _lot_ of extra boyancy. I see the following problems with an habitable wingdeck: - Weight - Aerodynamic - The cat can't be separated in two hull for transport Not having one: - Boyancy - Habitability - Slightly more complicated controls as they must be doubled - Safety of going on a slick deck at night from one steering position to the other, get hit by a bird or a flying fish and you are history. > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. If I understand you right , the wing deck is just there to keep the hull apart. If they have a clearance of 1.2m then the height of the overwater hull would also be 1.2. If you need a clearance of 1.9m for you to live and have a minimum of 20 centimeters bellow the floor, making the hull 2.1 meters hight -1.2m water clearance of the wingdeck that's 0.9 meters draft. 1 of 3 thing is right choose: - you get your 1.2-1.5m clearance by design (with a normal draft) - you have 0.9m draft and I seriously propose reconsidering your design - you are going to have less than 1.9m head clearance in your huls and I will either applaude if you learn to live like arabs on the floor (this is done in a lot of indonesian boats where the head clearance is sometimes +/- 1.3 m you sit in the cabine, as you can't stand) or laugh at you if you live like a bend_in_the_middle european. > I don't > understand why cats always have the wing deck below > the level of the outer decks. Is it just a > psychological safety issue to feel surrounded by the > topsides of the hulls, or is there a structural > reason? ENORMOUS structural diffrence. I think 1m wing deck clearance is enough, but it all dependends on how wide your cat is. the wider the cat the higher the wingdeck. If you met the waves at 90° then the hulls keep the wingdeck at constant hight. if you meet the waves at 0° then the top of the wave might touch you wingdeck. so high wing deck clerance is needed when you have high and very chopy sea and you meet it at 0°. I don't think this happends often. > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and > reefing lines. Socialising in port, the main function > of any cockpit, will be on the central deck. Is the cockpit to be sealed from the elements or open? Are you going to double all the sheets, halyard... to have control in each hull? > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using > frameless technique. Had you choosen steel, you could cut your plates yourself. Be sure to check the discutions about the NCcut plates. Is it worth it? I think you and I have the same the same philosophy, we want something that is right by design. I also think that NCcut plates are wrong by design. The right design doesn't need machinery. That's where Swain design is best IMO. > If necessary, bulkheads go in > afterwards? If your boat isn't unsinkable, bulkheads are a must. I'll want to have unsikable with bulkhead. > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > flotation. Fairly V-ed, knife-shaped bow. See Above > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. That minimizes only half of the pitching, that is backwards. too flat stern and you acentuate the pitching forward. The good thing is that you can always weld on some extra boyancy tank in the bow if it doesn't work as you want. not high tech design but cheap and effective. I wouldn't hesitate a second to make a 'beautifull unstable boat' an 'ugly stable boat'. > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, > off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it > lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and > bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet > surface area, construction time and cost (less > welding). what draft do you want to have? semi circular is going to make you boat deeper than more flatish shapes > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than > 3', preferably 2'. Purpose is for beaching, not > leeway reduction. You loose me here. Leeway reduction is best done with side board in a catamaran they are as long as you want and add nil when retracted (I also belive they should retract automaticaly). So what would your draft be without your keel and skeg. What would it be with them? Leave Keel and skegs to monohulks which need them and instead weld an extra 6 mm plate at the bottom of hull to slide on. > 12. Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or > two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings > - like an external centreboard. I don't want the > hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the > performance of the lee board and the convenience of > minimal draft and being able to run aground. Hallelouia. > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom > can actually be "inboard" by using a sugar scoop stern > to increase waterline length and provide steep > boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so > beyond sugar scoop to enable installation of a trim > tab on each rudder. Hmm I'd like to see a drawing of your inboard rudder. I think what you describe comes close to what I wrote above about the boat which had nice boarding possibility. What about having the rudders fixed on the beam between the hulls, it won't be at the end of the boat thus loosing some eficiency. > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering > thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that > will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering backed up > by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab > via Morse control. OK. but I am more on the hydraulic steering myself, with a direct backup in the form of a tiller. > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We > detest using the engine unless on a delivery. Ideally > a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of > skeg. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Brent had a very nice description of his adventures with an outboard. A 15m+ cat is a ship not a canot. If you think you can do without the extra safety an engine gives you, then go for the outboard otherwise a more 'definitive' solution is needed. Now marin engines are expensive, too expensive for what they are. I think there are other solutions like truck and car engines. I'll gladely discuss this. The most important point with engines (except the engines themselves) is where they are placed? how do you do maintenance on them? and if you have a wife and/or kids how do you COMPLETELY separate it from the living quarter? > 17. Rig to > be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both > cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is > already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is > sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to > an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all > the normal rigging there is less potential for > failure. The rig will be biplane because it keeps the > centre of effort lower than having one central mast. > And structurally it makes more sense to have a > keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on > the wing deck. Please blow this logic down in flames. I'll counter backwards. The one point where I agree with you is about masts being stepped in the hull instead of the middle of the wingdeck. I disagree with the rest. Stayed masts are proven, carbon masts are not and I repeat it again they are not, do not give me one or two example I can give you millions of stayed masts examples. What is the price of a 19m carbon mast? 17 meters above deck plus 2 for the stepping. Multiply by 2 with since you'll have two masts. The staying of a mast doesn't cost that much on a boat you build yourself. How do you reduce the sail area easily? Do you think it's easy to handle double sail, sheets and halyard (multiplied by 2 sterring positions). My idea for the rig is even less tested than yours but I think it's simple, cheaper and easier to handle. > 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them > hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise > disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be > oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make > it free standing). Track = failure if you don't buy real good stuff, read expensive. What are the other guys in the list using and what problems did they encounter? I'll keep you sweaty a bit more by telling you I think there is a solution. > 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing > deck and hulls. I don't know what a bimi is, could you explain? > Solar panels to go on top Hmm, please tell me you are not going to have an internet connection on your boat ;-) Save the money from the solar panel and buy a mini generator (diesel). I knwo I am going to be flammed but think about it seriously and when you are ready we can discuss all the cases where diesel generator is better than a silly 15 WH solar panel. > So what's the point of building a boat if you are not > going to sail it? The point is building the boat. I can be on it when other sail it. > Hey, Nadim, I have an idea! Why > don't you build my cat and then I will come to Sweden > and pick it up? We can both do what we prefer to do. :) As I wrote at the top of this mail, I think we should divide the discussion in sections and take a section at a time. If you want, we can seriously discuss your boat point by point and then mine or we could take each point (material, share, construction, tooling, ....) and discuss both boats at the same time. Let me know how you want to go on. Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. | 1438|526|2003-03-18 12:56:59|Alex Christie|origami cat|I'm posting this for James Floyd, as had some bounce trouble: Hello Alex, I get a Bouncing message and I cannot post so if you could forward this to the group I would appreciate it. I have posted a few pics of my origami cat model. It is a 1 inch to 1 foot scale model. 46 inches long and 24 inches wide. Steven Dittmore helped me with the weight calculations and the guided me on the hull shape. Basically, I just kept fooling with it until I got the beam width on the waterline to just below 4 ft. It has a draft of about 3.5 ft. It is very fine at the bow and fattens out quite a bit on the stern. The displacement (loaded) will be about 14,000 pounds. The model in the water has the proper amount of weight (in proportion) to show how it would actually sit in the water. From what I've learned, I don't see many problems with an Origami cat. The beams connecting the amas concern me, because of the distortion you would get from the bulkheads where they connect. If any of you want to contact me my e-mail is jamesfloyd@... thanks, James Floyd| 1439|1034|2003-03-18 14:54:55|richytill|masts|A picture has been posted of a stainless pipe mast on a 36'. Can anyone say what the diameter of that mast might be? It appeared to be about 5.5" OD (a guess). That would wheigh around 7.7 lbs per foot in schd. 10--seems heavy-ish at 365lbs+/- for the whole pole. A rigger here claims he can transform the performance the boat by using a lighter mast. Any feedback appreciated. Thanks, rt, Sechelt| 1440|526|2003-03-18 17:22:18|nadim|Re: origami cat|On Tuesday 18 March 2003 18:56, Alex Christie wrote: > From what I've learned, I don't see many problems with an > Origami cat. The beams connecting the amas concern me, because of > the distortion you would get from the bulkheads where they connect. > I sure would like to see those picture and any of the material you have. I'd like to give a comment or two about your idea/design: - beams are and easy solution but they hardly provide the same structural resistance of a wingdeck, or is you design without habitable wingdeck? - 3-4 ft draft would make me (this is about your cat but if I was to build one of the same design) refuse to build the cat. it's simply too deep. 3-4 ft and you can say bye to beeching the cat. Does your design include a keel? Would you consider having a greater beam to lower your draft? That might (or might not) lower the wetted surface too. you write :"The displacement (loaded) will be about 14,000 pounds". Could you please be more precise about what loaded is? How thick would the hull be? is the thickness the same all over the hull? As you can see I am very curious about your design ;-) Nadim.| 1442|1258|2003-03-20 23:13:38|mat_man22|Re: plans|Wm. Atkins 32 foot wood ketches "ERIC" and "Thistle", modified Colin Archer design, that was modified for fiberglass by Crealock to become Westsail 32. see: http://www.tlcs.com/dms/kendall/whist1.html MoToR BoatinG plans for "Thistle": http://www.tlcs.com/dms/kendall/thistle188.html| 1443|1443|2003-03-23 09:16:54|sae140|Couple of questions|I discovered your website recently whilst searching for information on VW Rabbit installations, and I'm finding the Origami technique fascinating. I've started converting past posts into plain text format, principally for my own use, but if any wants a copy they'd be welcome to it. A plea on behalf of lunatic keyboard masochists like myself and those with restricted bandwidth - could members on this site please trim their posts ?? To give you an example of how wasteful it is to wade through miles of text only to read a post which eventually says "yes, I agree", take a look at posts 943 to 972. An HTML file of these posts is almost 1Mb in size, whereas when converted to text this file becomes 35Kb - that's 3.5% of the original. 96.5% of this stuff is completely redundant. To be sure HTML does have an overhead, but the lion's share of the problem lies with untrimmed posts. On to boating matters .... A couple of questions: the build sequence photographs show construction to the half-shell stage, and then jump to the fitting of the transom, without showing the technique used for gluing the two half-shells together. Is this a straightforward procedure in practice - say by using a couple of tacks at the centre-line then pulling the halves together with tackle ? And with a fair few blocks supporting ? Presumably the hull has to stay upright at this stage to keep the hull from distorting ? I'm just mindful of how heavy the half shells are, and what an awkward shape they will be to manipulate with basic equipment. Having been in love with Allen Farrell's China Cloud for some time, it was good to see pictures of Evan Shaler's junk. Does anyone know whether Evan retained plans or sufficient information to make another ? I'd love to buy a copy of the paperwork and make a China Cloud copy myself. I've emailed him, but no reply so far. If anyone's in contact with Evan, perhaps you'd mention this post to him ? Thanks. Lastly - is anyone building an Origami boat in the UK or anywhere in mainland western Europe ? Regards Colin Powell [Boston, UK]| 1444|1443|2003-03-23 13:38:04|Alex Christie|Re: Couple of questions|You're right -- the section of the building sequence showing the actual pulling together of the two half-hulls is missing! Funny that I didn't notice that before. I glance at the photo in question every day on the cover of Brent's book, too. I'll see if I can get ahold of a scanner to zap the cover shot for you and post to the files. In the meantime, here is a short description: The technique for pulling the two halves together is pretty much as you guessed. You start not at the extreme point of the bow, but further back along the centreline, near the bottom of the bow curve. Then you work your way along aft tack-welding, winching the two halves together as you go, until you reach the transom. Brent's photo shows a good chain come-along in use for this process. The bow area is pulled together after. Because the hull halves are stress-skin objects with a welded-on pipe bulwark, plus at least four-longitudinals inside, they are quite stiff. There are no special supports needed, though Brent's photo shows some wood laid under the hull to allow the individual sides to slide together. Evan's junk boat is similar to Farrell's China Cloud, and definitely inspired by it in terms of faithful adherence dimensions, but the use of steel for the hull does change the nature of the boat. Allen's boat was conceived of as a light vessel that would seemingly skim over the water like a leaf (obviously still a displacement hull, but this was in any case the spirit that Farrell was after). I think it was ballasted with rocks, and depended on a very full mid-body that gave a lot of secondary stability. Evan's boat is quite a different animal, in that regard, with lead ballast, and it does appear to sit lower in the water. It would have different sailing behaviour than Farrell's hull, of course, though I'm sure it's fine. I've been interested in the idea myself for doing a hull like that, but my initial enthusiasm has been tempered by caution after thinking about some of the problems and challenges posited by designing such a hull. It's not that I've given up on the idea, but I'd like to approach its design methodically and rationally. I think Evan learned alot of things from doing his boat that would make him do it differently on another, and he is well worth listening to in this regard. For instance, he ended up doing a flat or near-flat bottom on this boat, but I think I recall him saying that next time he'd do it with a vee, as per Brent's boats. The other thing he told me is that he'd be leery of building another one at this time as it is such an experimental model which has not been proven with extensive sea- time (Farrell also did not design his boat for offshore use, it may be interesting to point out). He's got a point, too; It is one thing to do a hull for yourself, but when someone else wants to do the same hull, then you've got a burden of responsibility for their safety. The best education in this is I'd suggest is to build a samll conventional origami hull, and take what you've learned from this to apply to a junk hull. Although Tom Colvin's junks have completely different building techniques, they are steel for the most part, and would be a good departure point in terms of general hull shape. The challenge is getting a look at Colvin's hull sections, a nearly impossible task without buying a set of plans because he is so secretive about what's below the waterline. The origami technique could be used to model a hull with similar hydrostatics and behaviour, and you'd have a greater chance of success. I'm going to building a 40 footer to Brent's design, but if I start the junk experiment, I'd be glad to collaborate and share information with anyone interested in doing the same. Alex Christie| 1445|1445|2003-03-23 13:59:12|sae140|more home-made welders|Ok - enough lurking - time to make a contribution .... A few more links for home-made engine-driven welders: http://www.geocities.com/damonfg/obweld.html http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gaswelder.html http://www.trailhed.com/welding.html http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Obwelder1.htm The principle behind these designs is that the voltage regulators are bypassed so that the alternator's output voltage will vary in proportion to the engine's r.p.m. when in welder mode. Higher voltage will result in a higher electrode current. You'll need to switch the regulator back into circuit for charging batteries of course. Don't dismiss the relatively low current welder designs as being completely useless, as 2 such alternators in parallel will provide quite enough grunt - alternatively try sourcing a *really* big 200A job. Also - here's a link for a portable generator (also possible convertion into a portable welder ?) 'cause how else are you going to start your engine if all your batteries are flat .... (it happens ..): http://www.skennedy44.freeserve.co.uk/generator.html I've got a more professional design somewhere - I'll try and hunt it down. BTW - prop size & pitch/ shaft speed/ engine sbhp tables can be found in Nigel Warren's 'Marine Conversions', if anyone needs. Consider: make your shaft/ cutlass bearing/ prop all out of mild steel, then you really don't need to install zincs (although you might want to as belt and braces). I know of a boat that's been in the water for 22 years (much of this in the tropics) with this config - and no problems. Regards Colin| 1446|1443|2003-03-23 14:21:23|Edward Stone|Re: Couple of questions|Hi Colin, Alex, I am building a 36' Brent Swain origami boat in the UK midlands. Feel free to contact me. Regards, Ted| 1447|1447|2003-03-25 19:10:04|parallel_64|From Vancouver to Nanaimo|Hello -- Just finished reading the entire archive -- amazing ideas and information. Thanks to you all; as an inexperienced sailor and builder, I learned a LOT. Thanks Alex for your good work in running the group. I've never joined an internet group before, but can't help myself on this one . . . I'm sold on Brent Swain boats, and on the philosophy behind them! A couple of weeks ago cashed in some Alaska Airlines mileage to make a cheap trip to Mazatlan to check out Nomadic, thinking we might buy it. It's a great boat for sure, with lots of gear, but at 31 feet we decided it's too small for us, and so will be looking to build/buy a 36 footer. I think Mark (Nomadic's owner) is heading to Costa Rica right now. In April I may be traveling to Vancouver BC for work. I hope to take a quick drive to Nanaimo to look at the 36' hull for sale there (Joe Leibenberg's and now Mat Janigan's). From what I know Evan pulled it together a couple of years ago. ANyone know why this hull has gone through 3 owners already?? Any info or comments on this particluar boat would be most welcome, and so would locations of other Swain boats I might pass by on the way from Vancouver to Van I. Joe Easley, we should get together, as I see you're from Anchorage, too. Nomadic's owner lives in Eagle River. Cheers -- John DOyle / Anchorage,Alaska| 1448|1448|2003-03-26 00:45:49|fletchberry|Marinas|Hi everyone, I'm looking for feedback on marinas on Vancouver Island for a liveaboard situation. My preference is the Courtenay/Comox area but can go as far as Parksville to the south or Campbell River to the north. Any information or experiences would be very much appreciated. Regards Matthew Drabbe| 1449|1448|2003-03-26 01:06:24|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Marinas|Re: Liveaboard marinas I only know about the Comox government wharf from experience. The latest I've heard is that they have instituted an additional fee for liveaboards since we lived there aboard our boat 6 years ago. However, as far as I know, they don't turn potential liveaboards away like they tried to do in Victoria when we lived there. It seems that the further north you go, the friendlier marinas are, but there are always exceptions. If you have a twin keeler there are excellent drying bays in front of Comox which are free. I don't know whether the municipal Marina (near to the federal wharf) at Comox allows liveaboards, but none of the boats there look like liveaboards, besides being mostly smaller pleasure boats. Alex| 1454|1454|2003-03-27 14:06:42|desormeauxmike|Sail Plan, anchor system|First time poster, planning on building a 31' Swain twin keeler, cutter rig. I have read and re-read this site and have a few questions about Brent's designs. This is a great site and have learned a lot and would appreciate some guidance on sail plans and rigs and anchor systems for Brent's boats. 1) I noticed the "Kerrera" is cutter rig with a bowsprit. When I purchase design will it include options for sail plans. 2) The photos of Kobella show her with one of Brent's winches forward of the cabin with what seems to be all chain rode. Is this right? Thanks| 1455|1454|2003-03-28 01:32:53|mark_schlichting11|Re: Sail Plan, anchor system|"desormeauxmike" wrote: > > 1) I noticed the "Kerrera" is cutter rig with a bowsprit. When I > purchase design will it include options for sail plans. > > 2) The photos of Kobella show her with one of Brent's winches forward > of the cabin with what seems to be all chain rode. Is this right? > Not many Brent boats have a bowsprit, the plans don't include one so the sailplan (which is pretty basic) does not make provisions for sails to suit it. Kobella's ground tackle if almost identical to ours and consists of nylon anchor rode and galvanized chain - the drum is too small for all chain and it would be heavy up on deck. We have 250' of 5/8" gold braid nylon with 66' or 3/8" chain. Brent uses wire rope instead of nylon rode because it doesn't chaff and is strong, but I suspect it must be a little cumbersome to work with and would tend to coil when not under tension. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC| 1456|1456|2003-03-29 15:19:34|sae140|Nuthin' Wong|Does anyone have more details about the junk Nuthin' Wong ? I was wondering if she's a 40 footer ? Looks a big boat, with beautiful lines. Regards Colin| 1458|1458|2003-03-30 14:37:09|yvesmariedetanton|Twin Keelers|I simply want to add. For the asking, I'll send an article about twin keelers to the persons interested. Along with information about the one alrady built.| 1459|1458|2003-03-31 00:09:42|Edward Stone|Re: Twin Keelers|Yves Marie, I am very interested in your information about twin keelers and would appreciate it if you could send it. Regards, Ted| 1460|1458|2003-03-31 00:28:09|parallel_64|Re: Twin Keelers|Hello Yves -- Thank you for your offer of an article about twin keelers. I would very much like to read it. Maybe there's a way you could share it with the entire group; I'm sure others would appreciate it as well, and it might make things easier for you. Cheers -- John Doyle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > I simply want to add. > For the asking, I'll send an article about twin keelers to the > persons interested. Along with information about the one alrady built.| 1461|1461|2003-03-31 00:31:06|Glen|placement of keel|My question is for those people who have 40 foot plans, or are building the 40 foot Brent Swain. I am pouring over my plans in regards to the correct placement for the keels, whether they be single or twin. If I understand my plans correctly, the leading edge of the keel, where it meets the hull, is directly under the mast. The distance from what would be center of the mast, to the bow/stemhead is 15 feet 8 inches. If I transfer this measurement of 15' 8" to the hull plate, this would mean that the keel, where it meets the hull at the leading edge, would be 7 3/4 inches behind the vertical measurement of where the forward cut in the hull is. So ie: where you are cutting the plate to be pulled together. If you were looking at the V notch pointing towards the bow, the leading edge of where the keel meets the hull would be 7 3/4 inches behind the tip of this notch. I understand in the twin keel version, they are canted 90 degrees from the hull and 2' 10 1/2 " from the welded point at midship. I want to make sure I understand this properly. Does this make sense or am I too tired?????| 1462|1458|2003-03-31 11:09:58|nelstomlinson|Re: Twin Keelers|Hello, Yves, I, too, would be interested in your twin keel article, and the information. I suspect that you'll see a lot of interest in your kind offer, and a bit of bother. You might want to consider putting the article in the ``photos'' section of this group. Since access to that seems to be limited to registered members of the group, I think that would be equivalent to your offer. It probably wouldn't trigger any complaints from the copyright holder, if that's someone other than you. Anyway, thanks for your kind offer. I'll look forward to seeing your information. Sincerely, Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > I simply want to add. > For the asking, I'll send an article about twin keelers to the > persons interested. Along with information about the one alrady built.| 1463|1456|2003-03-31 15:02:06|evanmoonjunk|Re: Nuthin' Wong|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Does anyone have more details about the junk Nuthin' Wong ? > > I was wondering if she's a 40 footer ? Looks a big boat, with > beautiful lines. > > Regards > > Colin Hi Colin, Brent was involved in building this boat many years ago. I saw it during construction and again when it was sailing. I was aboard a few times but that was a long time a go and and don't remeber much about it. I think it was 47' on deck. Several years ago I had an email from the owner but have not heard any thing since..Evan| 1464|1456|2003-03-31 16:34:57|Jim Phillips|Re: Nuthin' Wong|Nuthin Wong was anchored in the lagoon at St Maarten in May 2000. The owner was looking for crew and was talking about heading west to Cuba, north to Canada or across to the UK. Could be anywhere now. But why not ask him where he is: chinesejunk@... Jim. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.| 1465|1458|2003-03-31 17:18:06|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Twin Keelers|Hi Yves, Feel free to put the article in the Files section if you like. Since many of the origami boats are twin keelers, this would be very pertinent to our discussion. Alex Christie ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 1467|1447|2003-04-01 17:11:13|rbyzitter2001|Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo|Hello John. Could you give me some more details in regards to Nomadic? I may of missed a post on this but I am curious as to dollars, conditions any pics and such. Thank you.| 1468|1468|2003-04-01 18:04:09|sae140|from model to full-size ?|So far so good .... Have been playing at converting a 32 ft Wylo II to Origami today .... Made a 1/12th half-model, covered this with strips of thick paper and several miles of sellotape, then lifted off the resulting 'orange peel' and cut out the chine darts as recommended. Then a couple of half-shells were worked-up using copydex glue and paper-card liberated from a filing cabinet. The resulting hull was very pleasing, and the procedure was a lot easier than I'd expected. Only one small snag - the resulting chine is some 55% of LOD, compared with the sample model pattern's 39% - but I can live with that. Only one question remains - how do I now translate the 1/12th model pattern to full size, bearing in mind the need to maintain accuracy ? Regards Colin BTW - thanks for the feedback re: Nuthin Wong.| 1469|1447|2003-04-01 18:27:50|John Doyle|Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo|Hello rbzitter -- There's a good write-up on Nomadic on its broker's website; it gives a lot of details, including photos: www.mazmarine.com. The boat itself is in great shape, and if it were the right size (larger) I'm sure we would have purchased it. The vessel was out of the water for new bottom paint and zincs when I arrived in Mazatlan (taken down to steel, sandblasted, etc.). Standing rigging is new, sails are almost new, the simple interior is in great shape (mahogony with teak trim), equipment and interior are likewise, it has incredible amounts of tools, spare parts, etc., etc., etc. Brent Swain apparently built the boat for a friend who lived in San Francisco; the current owner purchased it when it had less than 20 hours on the Yanmar engine, which now has about 650 hours on it and runs perfectly (not even a smell of diesel when you open the engine cover; no leaks, etc.). The boat has never been north of SF Bay, and has been in Mazatlan for about five years. It's been well taken care of -- a tough maintenance schedule has been followed (including starting the engine, and running all systems on a regular basis when the owner is away). You would have to pay almost triple the amount asked to fit the boat as it sits today. I had a surveyor look at Nomadic. He lives on a steel boat that he constructed himself (not a Swain hull). As I don't know him, and as he has a relationship with the broker, I can't vouch completely for his biases. But the boat's condition speaks for itself, I think. As far as I know, before I visited Mazatlan Mark Reiss, the boat's owner, was planning to take the boat south to Costa Rica. Whether or not he was taking it off the market was unclear to me, but you could call his broker (Ray Watson and Jeannette Sarrasin) in Mazatlan and learn more quite easily. They can be contacted on: tele +52 (669) 916-50-15; email Mazmarine@...). Cheers -- John -----Original Message----- From: rbyzitter2001 [mailto:slacktide@...] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 13:11 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo Hello John. Could you give me some more details in regards to Nomadic? I may of missed a post on this but I am curious as to dollars, conditions any pics and such. Thank you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1470|1468|2003-04-02 02:38:50|Alex and Kim Christie|rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull|Ok, I don't actually know what the rule of thumb is for how long those darts extend forward! I was hoping we could all put our heads together for Colin and work up the rule of thumb. Part of it may be determined by the behaviour of the steel, and what it lets you get away with in terms of torturing it. Perhaps the other part has to do with the conic projection in the bow sections, and where that cone ends, making that point being the forwardmost part of the dart. If anyone has some ideas on this please share! Alex ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 1471|1461|2003-04-02 11:41:07|Gord Schnell|Re: placement of keel|I'm unclear on your description. A drawing would help to understand your question. Gord Glen wrote: > > My question is for those people who have 40 foot plans, or > are > building the 40 foot Brent Swain. I am pouring over my > plans in > regards to the correct placement for the keels, whether > they be > single or twin. If I understand my plans correctly, the > leading edge > of the keel, where it meets the hull, is directly under > the mast. The > distance from what would be center of the mast, to the > bow/stemhead > is 15 feet 8 inches. If I transfer this measurement of 15' > 8" to the > hull plate, this would mean that the keel, where it meets > the hull at > the leading edge, would be 7 3/4 inches behind the > vertical > measurement of where the forward cut in the hull is. So > ie: where you > are cutting the plate to be pulled together. If you were > looking at > the V notch pointing towards the bow, the leading edge of > where the > keel meets the hull would be 7 3/4 inches behind the tip > of this > notch. I understand in the twin keel version, they are > canted 90 > degrees from the hull and 2' 10 1/2 " from the welded > point at > midship. I want to make sure I understand this properly. > Does this > make sense or am I too tired????? > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1472|1468|2003-04-02 16:21:16|nelstomlinson|Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull|On a related subject, I've been trying to play around with the little paper cut-out hull which is in the files section. It works well enough that I can understand the basic idea, but that's not working very well. The main problem seems to be line width: there's so much slop in the drawing (after I've cut it out, at least!) that my two centerlines are never quite straight after pulling the darts together. That makes for a pretty funky aft half for most of the models. I'd like to be able to convince myself that I can really do this on a big scale. One thing I'd like to do, in aid of that, is to get a thin, 4x8 sheet of masonite and make a one sheet dinghy using this method. It wouldn't be usable as a dinghy, but it would be cheap, and line width won't matter quite so much on that scale. Could someone post a table of offsets for lofting that little paper hull half, please? Thanks, Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > Ok, I don't actually know what the rule of thumb is > for how long those darts extend forward! I was hoping > we could all put our heads together for Colin and work > up the rule of thumb. Part of it may be determined by > the behaviour of the steel, and what it lets you get > away with in terms of torturing it. Perhaps the other > part has to do with the conic projection in the bow > sections, and where that cone ends, making that point > being the forwardmost part of the dart. If anyone has > some ideas on this please share! > > Alex > > > > ________________________________________________ ______________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 1473|1468|2003-04-03 23:28:23|mat_man22|Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull|> Could someone post a table of offsets for lofting that little paper > hull half, please? > Hi Nels Alex posted this at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Smallboats/message/4457 "For quite some time I've had the designer's permission to post a digital copy of the pattern for the dinghy on the Origamiboat yahoo group site, but haven't gotten around to it yet, so this will prompt me to go on up to the school and scan the thing once and for all and do it!" I hope he gets around to this. Mat| 1475|1468|2003-04-04 12:37:28|nelstomlinson|Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull|Is he talking about the gif of the cutout which he's posted at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/A n%20Origamiboat%20model%20pattern ? Or is he talking about measurements which I could scale up? Alex? By the way, in Brent's book, the dinghy plan seems to be something very different than the cutout, which is also there. I can't give page numbers, since I don't have the book with me. As I recall, what the book calls the dinghy plan has the tabs in the top rather than the bottom of the halves. I suspect that by trial and error I could get something that worked at small scale, but then any errors in measurement would get scaled up too. I was hoping for a set of measurements which I could scale. If someone has built one of those dinghies, and saved patterns, maybe he could measure them and post some working numbers? It seems to me that the tricky part about all this is getting the center-line curve to lie in a single plane. My difficulty always seems to be that there is a discontinuity where the two tabs come together. Since I cut the mating edges of the tabs to the same length, the two corners meet (the mating edge to center line corners), but there is an angle in the centerline where they meet which shouldn't be there. I think that means that the angle of the mating edges is slightly wrong. I guess what I could do would be to cut out the hull halves, leaving several inches of scrap on each mating edge, then pull togther and align so that the centerline describes a single plane, then cut the mating edges where they overlap. Glossary: I'm using: to mean: mating edge One of the edges on a tab, which joins to the matching edge of the other tab, all on the same side. Both edges are roughly perpendicular to the centerline. centerline The edge of a hull half which joins to the other hull half. The centerline of the whole boat, where the two hull halves join together, must describe a plane, so each centerline must also. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mat_man22" wrote: > > > Could someone post a table of offsets for lofting that little paper > > hull half, please? > > > > Hi Nels > > Alex posted this at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Smallboats/message/4457 > > "For quite some time I've had the designer's permission to post a > digital copy of the pattern for the dinghy on the Origamiboat yahoo > group site, but haven't gotten around to it yet, so this will prompt > me to go on up to the school and scan the thing once and for all and > do it!" > > I hope he gets around to this. > > Mat | 1476|1468|2003-04-04 12:53:27|nadim|Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull|On Friday 04 April 2003 19:36, nelstomlinson wrote: > I suspect that by trial and error I could get something that worked at > small scale, but then any errors in measurement would get scaled up > too. They will indeed. There is only one other way to find out (except trial-error). Model the hull in a 3D program and unwrap it. I guess it is possible to do the calculation by hand but it is not worth it. A good friens has such a program I'll give it a try. Otherwise there is such a program made by Lundström (in Sweden) and certainly many other ones. A few weeks ago there was a discussion about 3D modeling, maybe one those members could help you. Nadim.| 1477|1468|2003-04-05 02:30:48|sae140|Re: from model to full-size ?|Nels recently wrote: "On a related subject, I've been trying to play around with the little paper cut-out hull which is in the files section. It works well enough that I can understand the basic idea, but that's not working very well." "I'd like to be able to convince myself that I can really do this on a big scale." I sympathise - 'cause that's been my experience too: the small resolution .gif graphic in the files section is ideal for demonstrating the basic principles of Origami boat-building, but of course is inadequate for the purposes of building an accurate scale model. One simple way of building-up confidence in this system is to take an Origami layout from an existing hull - perhaps a toy boat hull, or even from a barrel (!) - and then to re-constitute this hull shape from the layout obtained. So just in case anyone is considering doing this - here is how I approached the task, although there must be several ways of achieving the same result ... (If you already have a hull handy, you might want to skip the first part) Converting a hull to Origami. A set of 1/12th scale sections were made from the thinnest plywood in the shed, and a couple of pieces of 1" x 1" nailed to either side of their lower edges so they would stand upright on a length of plank used as a baseplate. By holding these in place with chunks of scrap steel, the hull lines were faired using a 3 ft length of thin wavy plastic as a batten. This was a tedious operation, but eventually each section was glued down into it's correct position on the base plate. Dressmaker's pins were inserted firmly into the ply sections at the chine points, and the spaces between each section were filled with crumpled-up wire-netting before applying builder's plaster. When semi-hard, the plaster was skimmed flat between the pins, and exactly level with each plywood section. When fully dry, the line of the first chine was marked in ink, and all pins removed, with the exception of those at the sheer-line and keel mid-line. If I was doing this again, I'd use a couple of lengths of screwed rod to adjust the sections fore and aft, as this is time consuming and tricky otherwise. I'd also use scraps of polystyrene (instead of wire-netting) and Plaster of Paris in the interests of speed, as builder's plaster can take a day or two to fully dry-out. It took me a couple of attempts to work-out the best method of applying an 'orange-peel' covering. I found the best method was to cut 1" wide strips of stiff lining paper (the sort sometimes used under wallpaper when decorating), and applied one such strip along the sheer, and another along the keel-line, resting these strips against the marking pins, and holding them in place with a few more pins. Shorter, vertical strips of paper could then be sellotaped between these two outermost strips, with all strips hugging the hull's contours. If the vertical strips are initially applied with a space between each, then chine lines can be accurately transferred from the mould onto the paper before finally filling in the spaces, and securing the whole lot with lengths of Sellotape. After marking the transom and stem lines onto the paper, the resulting 'orange-peel' was lifted clear of the hull. Now comes the fun part. A vertical cut was made from the keel-line to the chosen chine-line at a position of beam max. - although this position doesn't appear critical. The chine-line was cut (and cut, and cut ...), until the 'orange-peel' eventually laid flat. As I've already mentioned, this was somewhat longer than expected - but so what ? It's as long as it needs to be ... Although this was a successful experiment (and thanks to Brent for suggesting the basic technique), I was a tad leery at first of extrapolating these lines up to full size, as even an 1mm error from the model would result in a 12mm discrepancy - until it occurred to me that the 'dart' area could easily be enlarged on a photocopier up to 1/4 real size, where a 1mm error in initial measurement would then be without consequence. Alex's thoughts re: "the conic sections influencing dart-length" got me thinking about the staves of old-fashioned wooden beer-barrels. In a sense, each half of an origami boat hull can be viewed as being rather like two such staves - which, if viewed from directly above are separated by a perfectly straight line, but if flattened out have identical gradual curves forming their mating surfaces. As this idea promised to provide the best possible (even ultimate ?) chine line, I worked-up another 'orange-peel' but now, rather than incorporate the original straight chine line as before, I estimated the required chine line curve by viewing the hull-half from above - as if this was two adjoining staves of a barrel. (Referring back to the model .gif in the files section, the lines marked "chine" can be seen as being straight lines. In this new hull form, these lines are now curved, and mirror the curved lines of the two adjacent 'tabs'/'flaps'. Hope this makes sense.) If this is a well-known feature, perhaps you'd excuse my enthusiasm - as I've only just discovered this ! The resulting hull form is a marked improvement over the first attempt, and the chine now produced is unobtrusive. I'm now on my 4th (and probably last) model, now only trimming and tinkering with fine adjustments ... It's a brilliant way of understanding the principles and developing confidence in the technique. I can wholeheartedly recommend it ! Colin| 1478|1468|2003-04-05 11:05:04|nelstomlinson|Re: from model to full-size ?|Hello, Collin, That all sounds as if it would work, and it sounds like a lot of work. That's what I was hoping to avoid with the table of offsets. If you get a nice flat shape which makes a decent hull, I wish you'd give us Cartesian coordinates for its edges. By the way, your method of planking the turn of the bilges of your model sounds a lot like Dudley Dix's method of planking up his constant radius hulls. Your photocopier enlargement should work fairly well. It should certainly beat trying to make measurements from the 1:12 model. Since you are copying your cutouts, line thickness may not be an issue. Remember that line thickness will be enlarged along with everything else. That's why enlarging the gifs doesn't work, of course. I like your ``barrel approach''. Does this give a bit less knuckle where the chine ends? While you're experimenting with this, I suppose that you could carry your barrel analogy a bit farther, and make any number of staves, or tabs. Two chines might get you about as close to a round bilge as a sensible person would require. Nels| 1479|1479|2003-04-05 12:51:04|kingsknight4life|Swain for sale|Hi. I saw a Swain boat for sale recently on-line. The current owner says that it was Brent's original metal boat but it is not an origmai boat. Does anyone on here know anything about this boat or have they seen it? It's a 30 ft. white boat and it doesn't have a pilothouse that's about all I know. I'm thinking about purchasing it as I'm getting impatient and I think it would take me a long time time to build one. : ) Thanks, Rowland| 1480|1447|2003-04-05 12:55:57|kingsknight4life|Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "parallel_64" wrote: > "Hello -- > ... In April I may be traveling to Vancouver BC for work. I hope to take > a quick drive to Nanaimo to look at the 36' hull for sale there (Joe > Leibenberg's and now Mat Janigan's). From what I know Evan pulled it > together a couple of years ago...." > did you end up purchasing that hull? I see that it is no longer for sale. Just curious as to what happened to it. Rowland > | 1484|1468|2003-04-06 08:50:01|sae140|Re: from model to full-size ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nelstomlinson" wrote: > That .... sounds like a lot of work. Not really. Making up the hull itself from offsets or study plans is tedious, but the rest is a lot quicker and easier than it sounds. If you were to start with (say) a toy hull, or a Rugby or American football, then pasting-up an 'orange-peel' takes but 20 minutes or so. And ... when you've tried one particular chine cut, you can always return the 'orange-peel' to whatever you're using for a former, then after repairing the first cut, you can then proceed to try another ... Doing this, then drawing around the produced outline, is a *lot* quicker than calculating an outline from coordinates, which also requires the creation of curves by using a batten. > I like your ``barrel approach''. Does this give a bit less knuckle where the chine ends? In my model, there's less mid-chine knuckle than before, and the knuckle at the chine ends themselves is almost non-existent, and only shows because of the characteristics of cardboard. As steel will deform some (courtesy of a 2lb hammer), I'm confident that the transition at the chine ends will be almost invisible. In addition, I considered the idea of cutting the chine line (after the hull is pulled together, and with bracing in place), then making vertical cuts above and below the chine line every 4 inches or so - rather like producing a full set of false teeth (!), then bending these 'teeth' to follow a curved hull section, thus virtually eliminating the chine - but I don't think that extra work is justified. Likewise, although the 2 chine idea would certainly result in a rounder section, there's more work involved (especially if you round- off the chine as above), and the upper chine will be visible above the waterline anyway. I reckon there's a lot to be said for keeping things as simple as possible - and so get out on the water earlier .... Colin| 1485|1485|2003-04-06 12:27:49|Alex Christie|origamiboats under attack!|Well, it seems our group is being spammed almost daily, so I'm going to have to narrow the entranceway a bit in terms of screening new memberships. This will not impact our functioning, nor will it impact current members, and will only slightly delay the postings of new members until I check them out. From now on, I'll moderate the first post of a new member and that way no spam should get through. It is time consuming, but I hate the the thought of peoples' mailboxes being plugged up with various useless spam scams. Alex| 1486|1485|2003-04-06 12:31:33|nadim|Re: origamiboats under attack!|Hi Alex, On Sunday 06 April 2003 18:27, Alex Christie wrote: > From now on, I'll moderate the first post of a new member and that > way no spam should get through. It is time consuming, but I hate the > the thought of peoples' mailboxes being plugged up with various > useless spam scams. thank you, say if you would like some help. Nadim. | 1487|1485|2003-04-06 19:49:29|Claude Poitras|Re: origamiboats under attack!|Good idea Alex. One of these days, the Internet will become impossible to use. Claudius ; Fort McMurray Claude Poitras -----Original Message----- From: Alex Christie [mailto:achristie@...] Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] origamiboats under attack! Well, it seems our group is being spammed almost daily, so I'm going to have to narrow the entranceway a bit in terms of screening new memberships. This will not impact our functioning, nor will it impact current members, and will only slightly delay the postings of new members until I check them out. From now on, I'll moderate the first post of a new member and that way no spam should get through. It is time consuming, but I hate the the thought of peoples' mailboxes being plugged up with various useless spam scams. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1488|1488|2003-04-08 09:04:03|gaspereaux|Twin Keeler News Letter - Ted Brewer Article|Hi All, I have been away and am now just catching up on reading the postings. I noticed that there were a number of postings regarding Ted Brewers article and Twin keelers in general during March. I would like to mention that he published a very similar article in The Twin Keeler Newsletter. Twin Keeler is puublished about 4 times a year and I have found it to be worth every penny of its $15. subscription fee. I would like to repost some info that I posted on January 7, 2003. I have no commercial interest in this Newsletter! >>>>January 7, 2003. I have noticed that there are a number of owners of twin-keel boats in this news group so I want to let those of you who may not already know that there is a good news letter dedicated to twin-keel boats. Other than being a twin-keeler I have no direct interest in this publication: Twin-Keeler 632 Brindidi Court Punta Gorda, FL 33950 USA Editor-Publisher Craig E. Anderson ceadma@... $12 US per year in US and Canada ($15.00 As of April 2003) <<<<< Regards, Rich Murray Weymouth MA| 1489|1489|2003-04-08 13:03:15|Alex Christie|New 40 footer album|Dear Group, I've finally made my pilgrimage to see Gord's 40 footer being built in Vancouver, and have processed the photos and posted in an album entitled "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". The visit was very informative, and there's absolutely nothing like seeing the real thing to really get your head straight as to what you are getting into with a project like this! There are so many details that must be thought out on a boat that go beyond the basic notion of the hull and deck, and certainly challenges at every turn that demand creativity and patience to solve, as there is for many a custom boatbuilding project. The initial impression of the 40 footer bare hull is that it is a "ship" compared to the 36. However, after walking on the decks and down below, I quickly became accustomed to its size, and the more time I spent on it, the more I felt that it would be a the right size for long term living aboard for my family. It is large enough to accommodate food stores, water, spare equipment and fuel (the fin keel version that Gord is building has very ample tankage) for extensive journeys offshore, yet small enough to handle for two if set up properly. Gord has all lines running aft to the cockpit for this reason, and this should enhance single-handing capability. Even a boat run by two people is really a single-hander, since each person usually takes a watch on their own. Down below, I was pleased to see that the insides were not as cavernous as I had been expecting, but it was still very roomy. The space in the bow is big enough to really be creative and go beyond the usual v-berth and create a true useable cabin. I think this is because moving the aft bulkhead of the bow stateroom back will not steal too much space from the main salon. Alternately, one could still build a regular v-berth, but have an extra 4 feet to play with for other uses. Back aft, below the cockpit, Gord is putting a large private berth which allows one to have an aft cabin and still maintain the aft cockpit outside. This can be done on the 36 footer, but the bed is smaller, the engine has to move forward into the main cabin, and the cockpit footwell has to be sacrificed in order to gain room below. Ventilation for the aft cabin is provided via opening ports in the footwell of the cockpit. This is a clear example of how a slight step up in size of hull allows for greater flexibility in customizing to your needs. That said, I do maintain that the 36 footer, as built to the plans, represents the ideal simple cruising vessel for two, and would counsel anyone trying to choose between a 36 and a 40 to seriously look at how much space they really need. The 36 footer represents more closely Brent's philosophy of "go simply, go NOW" approach, whereas the 40, being a much bigger boat is going to require many more hours to finish (Gord has spent about as much time detailing with stainless as he has building the hull), and more hours to maintain. However, if you need the space due to crew size, then the choice is easier to make. I think any hull larger than this would leave the philosphy of simplicity behind in its wake and enter the realm of luxury yachts that "take" more than they "give". When you walk the docks, you can tell that it is the smaller boats that get used, while the "ships" tend to be stationary. The owner has made the sidedecks a few inches wider than called for on the plans, and this has yielded a very easy passage forward for the crew. A possible side-benefit to this decision is that weight of the cabinsides has been nudged that much closer to the centreline of the hull. Moving several hundred pounds of steel over like that has to be good for overall stability, I imagine. Again, this is something that can be done more easily on the 40 footer because there is that much more room down below. The interior space does not appear to be impacted at all by the slightly narrowed cabin. The stainless detailing on this hull is quite exceptional; Gord has been able to really polish up the welds where the horizontal railings meet the vertical stanchions with the help of a remarkable new type of polishing wheel that fits on his grinder. It looks and feels just like a regular grinding wheel, but it does not "eat" at the steel the way a grinding or cutting wheel would (which would leave big gouges). Instead, it allows you to feather the weld into the surrounding metal such that you cannot tell where the metal is joined to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course not! For all the portlights, Gord has followed the Swain way of not having any small opening ports on the outside of the hull except for the forward hatch, the forward port in the centre of the pilot house, and two see-through hatches on the top of the pilot house. He has made the fixed ports even stronger by recessing them into the hull, such that no object can scrape at their edges. I'll conclude with the pilot house in this posting: While many choose to put forward-leaning windows on Brent boats, Gord has chosen the more typical aft-leaning windows. However, he has regained the rain and sun shading benefits usually reserved for Brent-style windows by putting a visor over the windows. That's about all for my report today. I hope to get over and see the 40 footer Mishar some time, as it is afloat and complete. It will be interesting to compare a finished boat to one in build. Alex| 1490|1489|2003-04-08 15:53:50|nadim|Re: New 40 footer album|Hi Alex, Thanks for your report On Tuesday 08 April 2003 19:03, Alex Christie wrote: > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course > not! Well you know what you have to do now. Cheers, Nadim. | 1491|1491|2003-04-09 13:45:58|Alex and Kim Christie|twin keel link|One of our members has forwarded me a link about one man's experiences with his twin keel boat, "Drinian": http://drinian.homestead.com/files/twins.htm Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1492|1492|2003-04-09 14:11:10|sae140|archive posts text files|Hi - have just placed plain text files of the archived posts in the files section. Pity they're not indexed - big hint ;~) Any takers ? Whilst editing, I noticed that there weren't too many references to the 26 ft. Brent Swain hull. Does anyone have facts and figures and any opinions re: seaworthiness etc. Thought it might make a nice single stick junk rigger - jus' thinkin' out loud .... Colin| 1493|1489|2003-04-09 17:34:59|withamazinggrace|Re: New 40 footer album|Alex I'll answer this one. The disc Alex referred to (for finishing SS weld sites) is made by SAIT. It is called the SAITBLEND A54F- Flexible PN:29271. SAIT released them (to this marketplace at least) in Feb/2003. Gord --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > Hi Alex, Thanks for your report > > On Tuesday 08 April 2003 19:03, Alex Christie wrote: > > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing > > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course > > not! > > Well you know what you have to do now. > > Cheers, Nadim. | 1494|1489|2003-04-09 17:37:25|nadim|Re: New 40 footer album|Hi Gord (on?) On Wednesday 09 April 2003 23:34, withamazinggrace wrote: > Alex > I'll answer this one. The disc Alex referred to (for finishing SS > weld sites) is made by SAIT. It is called the SAITBLEND A54F- > Flexible PN:29271. > SAIT released them (to this marketplace at least) in Feb/2003. > Gord Thank you for the information, any chance you have a reference to a web (best as I am in Sweden) site or a distributor. Nadim. | 1495|1489|2003-04-09 17:50:11|Alex Christie|SAITBLEND disks|I've found a reference to the disk at United Abrasives http://unitedabrasives.com/catalog.php?page=39 It's an American company, but it also has a warehouse in Ontario, Canada. Alex| 1496|1489|2003-04-09 18:00:43|edward_stoneuk|Re: SAIT|Nadim, Here is a web address for SAIT; http://www.sait-abr.com They are an Italian Company, United Abrasives sell them in North America. I have used their very thin cutting discs here in the UK. They are excellent. I got their web address using the Google search engine. Regards, Ted| 1497|1489|2003-04-09 18:05:03|nadim|Re: SAIT|On Thursday 10 April 2003 00:00, edward_stoneuk wrote: > Nadim, > > Here is a web address for SAIT; http://www.sait-abr.com They are > an Italian Company, United Abrasives sell them in North America. I > have used their very thin cutting discs here in the UK. They are > excellent. I got their web address using the Google search engine. Thank you Ted. Nadim.| 1498|1447|2003-04-09 20:44:00|brentswain38|Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo|The first owner ran out of money when the briex stock market investments he had his money in collapsed. The second owner was talked into building a 57 footer . I don't know the story on the current owner . I hope to leave Tonga today for a two month non stop , internet free sail back to BC. I'll talk to you when I get there. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "parallel_64" wrote: > Hello -- > > Just finished reading the entire archive -- amazing ideas and > information. Thanks to you all; as an inexperienced sailor and > builder, I learned a LOT. Thanks Alex for your good work in running > the group. > > I've never joined an internet group before, but can't help myself on > this one . . . > > I'm sold on Brent Swain boats, and on the philosophy behind them! A > couple of weeks ago cashed in some Alaska Airlines mileage to make a > cheap trip to Mazatlan to check out Nomadic, thinking we might buy > it. It's a great boat for sure, with lots of gear, but at 31 feet we > decided it's too small for us, and so will be looking to build/buy a > 36 footer. I think Mark (Nomadic's owner) is heading to Costa Rica > right now. > > In April I may be traveling to Vancouver BC for work. I hope to take > a quick drive to Nanaimo to look at the 36' hull for sale there (Joe > Leibenberg's and now Mat Janigan's). From what I know Evan pulled it > together a couple of years ago. > > ANyone know why this hull has gone through 3 owners already?? Any > info or comments on this particluar boat would be most welcome, and > so would locations of other Swain boats I might pass by on the way > from Vancouver to Van I. > > Joe Easley, we should get together, as I see you're from Anchorage, > too. Nomadic's owner lives in Eagle River. > > Cheers -- John DOyle / Anchorage,Alaska | 1499|1499|2003-04-10 21:07:51|Alex and Kim Christie|Chine line|Hi Gord, Thanks for the information to the group about that elusive name of the feathering wheel! I was wondering about the chine line on your boat; did you have to extend the length of it, or modify it some while building? I am thinking that perhaps the line simply looks long from being scaled up from the 36, or else Brent designed it with a longer chine. Regards, Alex| 1500|1500|2003-04-10 22:36:29|greenguy2ca|Insurance|Hello All... Just wondering if anyone has looked into the cost of insurance for these boats. I know the general outlook is not to insure as one can always weld up another boat. However, with my 36' pilothouse hopefully launched this year on Vancouver Island I would at least like to get into this topic a little bit. Thanks.... Gary| 1501|1499|2003-04-11 01:15:12|Gord Schnell|Re: Chine line|The chine line is 113%(scale factor for 36' to 40') of the 36'. We didn't extend it, although I did score it another 5 to 6" with a grinder (before pulling the half-hull into shape) to encourage the formation of a softer entry into the complex curve of the bow and stern (mostly the bow). Caution: the dimensions for the hull plate cuts are in error and result in adding small filler plates near the center of the chine and also in the vertical "belly" seam. Gord Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > > Hi Gord, > > Thanks for the information to the group about that elusive > name of the > feathering wheel! > > I was wondering about the chine line on your boat; did > you have to extend > the length of it, or modify it some while building? I am > thinking that > perhaps the line simply looks long from being scaled up > from the 36, or else > Brent designed it with a longer chine. > > Regards, > > Alex > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [Image] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1502|1500|2003-04-11 13:45:12|nelstomlinson|Re: Insurance|I can't help with cost info, but maybe I can offer some insight on insurance. If one boat out of twenty is lost each year, the expected value of the loss is 5% of the replacement cost. Actuarially fair insurance would cost that same 5%, and would be a great deal. Unfortunately, you can't get it. The problem with insurance as practiced today is that it is generally offered on a for-profit basis. Thus, you have to pay not only the expected present value of the loss, but also the insurance company's overhead and profits. Even a non-profit insurance company has the overhead. Furthermore, there are a host of problems like moral hazard, selection bias, and so on, which require higher rates than that 5%, just to let the companies break even. In the real world, actuarially fair insurance just isn't available. Commercial insurance is always a loosing bet for you, in the sense that the ``house'' always wins in the long run, just like at Vegas. It is often a good idea none the less, if you can't stand the loss alone. If you were to put aside 5% of the replacement cost of your boat every year, invested in US TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Securities, I think), after 20 years you would probably have at least the replacement cost, and possibly a bit more, IF you didn't loose your boat in the mean time. If you lost your boat in the first few years of that program, you'd have a problem. That risk, of loosing the boat before you've saved up the replacement cost, is what insurance is designed to make more tolerable by spreading. The decision between insurance and self-insurance is one that you have to make each year; it depends on how much it would hurt to loose the boat each year, and how bothered you are by uncertainty. If you could afford to deal with the loss of the boat right now, I would suggest not insuring. ``Deal with the loss of the boat'' might be as simple as starting over without a cent. If you can't stand the thought of being broke and on the beach, you'd better insure, if you can afford the premium. If you could replace the boat out-of-pocket today, you would have to be far more risk averse than I am to justify buying insurance. I would suggest that you plan to put aside the 5% (or more!) each year, whether you buy insurance or not. After a few years, you may decide that the replacement fund is big enough that you don't need the insurance. Hope this helps, Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greenguy2ca" wrote: > Hello All... Just wondering if anyone has looked into the cost of > insurance for these boats. I know the general outlook is not to > insure as one can always weld up another boat. However, with my 36' > pilothouse hopefully launched this year on Vancouver Island I would > at least like to get into this topic a little bit. > > Thanks.... Gary | 1503|1500|2003-04-11 14:59:36|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Insurance|This is excellent advice, Nels. I've got a few ideas: I'm probably stating the obvious, but I think the number one insurance against loss is simply to build out of steel. Not invincible, but it won't crack up on a reef -- which seems to be the number one way people lose boats in the SoPac! The next thing on my mind is that replacement cost for one of these boats can be much less than a brand new boat "off the shelf". Therefore, the less money you have into it, the less you have to lose. You can keep that in mind while you build (ie "how much can I stand to lose?"). Granted, no one wants to lose an investment, but it can and does happen. And taking Nels' advice about putting away that 5% each year would have you quite well off in good time, especially if you didn't go offshore right away. That's what I will do, simply because I can't stand giving away money to insurance companies, and I think the choice of steel for a hull material will protect the investment quite well. The more years you get out of your boat, the more it has payed for itself, as well. ...I know the Titanic was steel, but it was an object of large mass meeting another object of equally large mass, and therefore unstoppable in the limited space they had to maneuver, which is quite different than a small steel sailboat bouncing off something! Lastly, even if you don't insure you boat against loss, the most important thing is to at least insure yourself against is that scary monster, Liability. I don't think this has much to do with your actual boat (ie what it is made of), but is rather a blanket protection for yourself doing damage to someone else with your boat, the same as basic automobile insurance. You'd want to protect yourself against complete ruination by someone who sues you after your steel boat breaks free from a mooring and bashes up their Beneteau Oceanus (I assure you, your steel boat will come out the winner in that fight). And they or their insurance company WILL SUE! It is the way of our times. While many people are very confident with their seamanship, they forget that boats get up to all sorts of naughtiness by themselves (speaking from several experiences...). I've also had several near misses with handling larger boats in tight quarters of marinas; people in more easily handled smaller boats are famous for zooming in and cutting you off, forcing you into an emergency maneuver which may end up saving their boat from being split in two only to end up bashing into another boat instead! It is much better having a nice large insurance company go to bat for you when the owner of the second, completely smashed boat sends his insurance company after you. Once the incedent is over, do you think the original boater that caused the accident to begin with is going to 1)stick around, and 2) take the blame for an accident he obviously caused? Nyet. It was YOUR boat which split the Beneteau in two. Murphy's law of accidents while docking: "A thousand witnesses will be around to see your boat split the Beneteau in two; NONE will be found that witnessed the jerk in the zodiac or small sailboat cutting you off in the first place." That, you can count on! Just a few scary thoughts to darken your day....sorry! Alex| 1504|1500|2003-04-11 16:07:19|nadim|Re: Insurance|Hi all, I'd like to describe my philosophy On Friday 11 April 2003 20:58, Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > Therefore, the less money you have into it, the less you have to lose. Very philosofic but what does misses Alex say about the confort of your spartan skiff? ;-) > ...I know the Titanic was steel, but it was an object of large mass > meeting another object of equally large mass, and therefore unstoppable > in the limited space they had to maneuver, The Titanic was lost because of uncomplete design and very dumb handling. People thought it was unsinkable,that's the first and last error they made. >which is quite different than > a small steel sailboat bouncing off something! Alex, may I recommend you don't start thinking like the Titanic folks? Now about insurance, I won't talk about liability as I agree with Alex. The important thing to understand is that every singe cent you invest in your boat is lost. Yes, lost. if you are looking for an investment or something to ressel in a few years, invest in something that can't sink nor rust nor be flattened big a bigger boat. Hell with the money, you are putting the fruit of your hard labor into something you like, It's more like going to a nice restaurant than buying a house. You want insurance? here are a few things I recommend (again this is _my_ philosophy and no one has to agree): - Install water tight bulkheads (real one not like the Titanic) or something that will make you float whatever happends. - Throw away the life raft and build a better boat - Don't drink and sail - Take it easy - Be prepared! my 2 cents, Nadim. | 1505|1505|2003-04-11 20:32:26|Archie|Chine hulls|Is the extra drag created by the chine significant? Archie| 1507|1500|2003-04-11 22:01:50|Claude Poitras|Re: Insurance|There is two part to insurance. ( The "boat replacement" and "the Public liability" ) I would think that the public liability insurance would be a must. Without that, you could loose a lot more than the boat. Liability insurance alone should not be that much. does anyone know? Claude Poitras -----Original Message----- From: nelstomlinson [mailto:tomlinso@...] Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:45 AM I can't help with cost info, but maybe I can offer some insight on insurance. If one boat out of twenty is lost each year, the expected value of the loss is 5% of the replacement cost. Actuarially ...................... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1508|1500|2003-04-12 02:32:41|nelstomlinson|Re: Insurance|Obviously I was only thinking about casualty insurance. I agree that liability insurance is an entirely different matter. The crux of the difference is that with casualty insurance, your loss is limited by YOUR pocketbook, while with liability insurance, your loss is limited by the OTHER GUY'S pocketbook. So, if your little boat sinks, you're only out what you put into it. If you contrive to sink Bill Gates' boat, you're on the hook for all the billions HE put into it. It seems to me that there is something wrong with our way of doing things when poor folks have to carry insurance to protect the rich people's toys. On the other hand, the principle that we should make good damage we do seems to be a necessary principle, so I'm not sure that there is a better way. Back to casualty insurance: Nadim suggested watertight bulkheads, positive flotation, and spending life raft money on a more survivable boat. Those sound like sensible ideas to me. There was an article in ``Ocean Navigator'' recently (see http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4315 ) about a 60ft aluminum yacht with positive flotation. The boat was pounded across a reef in the Bahamas, and its 1/4 inch plate hull was holed below the waterline. The bilges were filled with foam, so no water got in, and it was sailed for some time before it was repaired. I think that in the first picture of the damage, I can see evidence of transverse frames, with the plate dished in around them. The article says that the hole was a ``... a 6- to 8-inch-long open vertical fracture in the plates, surrounded by deep indentations.'' It doesn't say whether the hole was right at a transverse frame. Maybe if they'd had only longitudinal frames, it wouldn't have been holed. The article talks about another safety feature on the boat. The engine space was a watertight box, sealed on all six sides. That's a watertight bulkhead where it will do a lot of good. It could save your bacon if the rest of the boat started to fill, since it could keep the engine dry and able to power your pumps. It would also keep diesel noise and stink out of the cabin, and go a long way to minimize fire hazards. Putting a water-tight bulkhead in the bow would give some more flotation without cutting into the accommodations too much. The space could still be used for storage of light stuff. I think that Brent said awhile back that 3 inches of foam would float the 3/16th steel plate he uses for hulls. Three inches on the 1/8th inch plate overhead would give some extra flotation for engine and so on. Three inches of foam all around would probably be about right for thermal insulation here in Southeast, so even if the boat never got holed, you'd get a lot of good out of it. Has anyone tried putting positive flotation into one of the Brentboats? If so, I'm curious how much space it took up, and whether it's been tested. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Claude Poitras wrote: > There is two part to insurance. ( The "boat replacement" and "the Public > liability" ) > I would think that the public liability insurance would be a must. Without > that, you could loose a lot more than the boat. > Liability insurance alone should not be that much. does anyone know? > Claude Poitras > -----Original Message----- > From: nelstomlinson [mailto:tomlinso@p...] > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2003 11:45 AM > > > I can't help with cost info, but maybe I can offer some insight on > insurance. > > If one boat out of twenty is lost each year, the expected value of the > loss is 5% of the replacement cost. Actuarially ...................... > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1509|1509|2003-04-12 03:06:42|Glen|Insulation|When People are talking of insulation to the hull and cabin I assume that the type of insulation that is being sprayed in is a closed cell type right? As I understand it open cell would allow water to penitrate and eventually find the hull. Can this foam be done by a do-it-yourselfer?| 1510|1505|2003-04-12 03:47:34|Alex Christie|Re: Chine hulls|I recall Brent saying something about this once, that basically there is very little difference in performance between a hull with the chine, and hull without (and there are a few who have elected to round out the chine midships with insertions of curved plate, most notable the Leckie hull, a 39 foot aluminum origami hull seen in the photo files). Technically, there could be drag any time water flows sideways across a hard hard corner like a chine (instead of along with it), as this would creates vortices that go spinning off the edge like clouds over the top of a high mountain. But in the practical use with these boats, in the already chaotic hull-to-ocean interface (due to wave action and the movement of the boat) I doubt one could tell the difference between a chined boat and a radiused chine boat were you hopping from one to another as they sailed side by side. Plus you'd be giving yourself more work cutting welding in the radii, plus possible adding heat distortion. It come down to looks, in my view, though the aesthetics of the rounded chine would only be appreciated on the rare occasion that the hull is hauled out and put on land:-) Alex origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Archie" wrote: > Is the extra drag created by the chine significant? > > Archie | 1511|1500|2003-04-12 09:28:07|nadim|Designing for boat safety.|Hi guys, I thought I'd start another thread so the insurance one keeps focused. Here my thoughts, ideas and philosophy (and experience). On Saturday 12 April 2003 08:32, nelstomlinson wrote: > Nadim suggested watertight bulkheads, positive flotation, and spending > life raft money on a more survivable boat. Those sound like sensible > ideas to me. I have been thinking about safety the last 10 years. A life raft cost is around 2000$ for a piece of near to useless rubber. On my side of the Atlantic, life rafts are mandatory except if the boat is certified unsinkable. > There was an article in ``Ocean Navigator'' recently (see > http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4315 ) about a > 60ft aluminum yacht with positive flotation. The boat was pounded > across a reef in the Bahamas, and its 1/4 inch plate hull was holed > below the waterline. Thank you for the link. I am on the multihull builder mailling list and I've been flammed when I said I wanted a steel hull. You might want to look at the archive to see how much people think grp is a strong enough material. I'd like to comment the article first, 2 starts are put before the sentences I extracted from the article: ** "If I'd had the time or money, I'd have made these decks and overheads more resistant to condensation," you may have thought. ** "If we'd thought more about it, we'd have added higher bulkheads for watertight compartments," a voice may have once whispered in your ear. I am planning to sail with family and friends, The one and only driving force for me is "SAFETY". Whatever boat you build (or multi million boat you buy), it all boils down to one thing: a bathtube with sail and/or engine that takes you from a point to another. The very essence of a boat is to take you to land again. The trip might be important but nothing is more important than the life of your beloved and your own life. This might sound obvious but when I read the sentences above it seems to me not all do the same. There is only one way to insure your safety, design. I am not talking about using the services of a hot shot designer (who would certainly do a great job at it) but your own ability to design safety in your boat. Life rafts are the most common example of badly designed safety because it is not part of the boat but added (and detachable). For those that can read French and are lucky enough to find the green book in the 'nauticus' series, it is worth reading more than one time. I'll tell more about life rafts if you are interested. If you just think "I have a life raft in case ..." then stay at home, spare the boat money and buy yourself a swimming pool. This sounds unpleasant indeed. I don't want to be unpleasant with such nice guys as you are but I simply think boating has to do with mind set and preparedness, relying on a life boat is the best sign for someone that should not sail, the only worse case being people not thinking about sinking at all. ** Ms. Fitz isn't your everyday, built-in-the-garage custom sailboat. That's lots of bull. Owner build boats are often better than production boats. How many production boats are unsinkable? **Actually, there aren't really any bilges because he had filled the areas below the sole with expanding urethane foam Not a very good idea if the foam gets soaked, you have no more flotation available. Test the foam by soaking it yourself! Keep some places with direct access to the hull so you can check it. I think Brent wrote something on foam and corrosion, check the archive. * - as much as 5 feet of it! If it is 5 feet, it's non sense. It it is 5 inches, the journalist should be more professional and have his articles corrected. *The job cost about $2,000 The only real intressting information. Osram VII web site (it's a cat but the problem is the same) has something about insulation. Foam weights 30-70 Kg/m3, it's light but it still have a weight that should be accounted for. > The bilges were filled with foam, so no water > got in, and it was sailed for some time before it was repaired. Possible but silly. If the problem happends at sea, you don't have much choice, though I would snorkel around and to fix it, there is epoxy that hardens in the water, pop nit a plate, do whatever you can before you sail more. There is no point in sailing in a foam hull. If it happends at shore, then it is ridiculous to sail more before attempting a reparation (it can be an ugly reparation who care?). I am to build a cat, but for mono, there is the question of single vs twin keels. In my opinion and without any doubt, twin is a safer design because of: 1/ shallower draft that might avoid the problem all together 2/ the double "bumper" that the keels offer. The boat might offer the bottom plate of both keels instead for the more sensitive round of bilge a single keel boat would do 3/ the possibility to repare without sailing back to a harbor. If you have an engine in your boat than you can have a welder, there are few home build welder designs available. I have pdf file available for those who want their own emergency welder on board. I don't know about sailing ability but I'd hapilly loose some of it for ability to repare and the peace of mind. > I think that in the first picture of the damage, I can see evidence of > transverse frames, ... Maybe if they'd > had only longitudinal frames, it wouldn't have been holed. Maybe but if you encouter a container angle then the problem is reversed. I think it is very important to not rely too much on the strength of the boat only. Floatability, pumps, water tight bulkheads, ... it's like having belt, suspender, life jacket, ... at the same time. > The article talks about another safety feature on the boat. The > engine space was a watertight box, sealed on all six sides. You tell me how you take water in and out, air in and exhaust out, fuel in, produced mechanical energy out. You talk about pumps, if they are mechanical, it would mean that the bilge is shared with the rest of the boat, if they are electrical, they might be submerged. I am not going against the idea but the description of it, read on. > That's a > watertight bulkhead where it will do a lot of good. It could save > your bacon if the rest of the boat started to fill, since it could > keep the engine dry and able to power your pumps. > It would also keep > diesel noise and stink out of the cabin, and go a long way to > minimize fire hazards. I agree 100% here. Separating the engine from the cabin is more than great idea it should be a must (except if you like smell diesel). Easy to do in a cat, very difficult in a mono. Propose your designs and let's see which one is best. The best way to control a fire is to control the air intake (if the engine box is relatively air tight). If you have an engine fire and the engine is in a box, then 'nautilus' had a nice tip. Envision the engine box (that can also be made of wood by the way), it's closed, the air intake is accessible so you can close it easily. You also need a 10 cm hole in the box, that hole should be close by a thick piece of wood or a metal flap. If a fire starts at the engine, open the flap (that must be easy to do without getting burned, stick the fire extinguisher nozzle in the hole and kill the fire (The hole should be of the same size of as the nozzle, 10 cm was an example). A fire alarm sells for 20$ with a 10 years battery. it is a good investment. I'd put one in the engine box and one outside. Remember that you should be able to hear or see the signals wether you are inside out outside the boat. > Putting a water-tight bulkhead in the bow would give some more > flotation without cutting into the accommodations too much. The space > could still be used for storage of light stuff. Water tight bulkheads (note the plural) are the best solution.They are easy to built in a cat but much more difficult in a mono. They can be replaced by any type of flotation. In a self righting mono, you need them to be as low as possible (not the case for a cat that can be upside down). The interior design has to take the flotation safety into account. Those flotation items can be made of multiple material: - foam (styrene base foam produce very nasty gazes when it burns, check the house building codes) - air (within a metal container) - the furniture can also be boyant (it should) In a non heeling boat, the water tight bulkheads don't have to be vertical. I haven't thought about a heeling boat but there is certainly a solution. An important point is that the bulkheads don't have to be of uniform thickness. The part that is welded to the hull and deck can be 4mm thick and few cm wide. The wall of the bulkhead can be as thin as 0.5 mm of may be thiner. If you have difficulties welding thin plate, pop nit and braze (extra precaution should be given to corrosion problems in this case). Some silicon paste you are ready to go. Nadim. | 1512|1500|2003-04-12 18:39:02|sae140|Re: Insurance|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nelstomlinson" wrote: > I think that Brent said awhile back that 3 inches of foam would float > the 3/16th steel plate he uses for hulls. Three inches on the 1/8th > inch plate overhead would give some extra flotation for engine and > so on. Sounds good in principle - but don't forget the couple of tons of ballast in the keel(s) ... Colin| 1513|1500|2003-04-12 23:17:57|Claude Poitras|Re: Insurance|Colin, you are right. The only true "unsinkable" sail boat that I know of is a Belgian made boat. Claude Poitras > the 3/16th steel plate he uses for hulls. Three inches on the 1/8th > inch plate overhead would give some extra flotation for engine and > so on. > Sounds good in principle - but don't forget the couple of tons of > ballast in the keel(s) ... > Colin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1514|1514|2003-04-13 08:40:18|Marco Ahrens|Electricity & Intergrated tanks|Hi folks, I have two questions which does not specifically concern origami boat building bur might be of interest anyhow. 1. Does any one of you have experience of fuel and water tanks integrated with the boats hull. As this to me would increase safety by in effect creating a double bottom in parts of the boat, ok you would loose the tank content should you go aground but the boat would remain nice and dry inside. Any negative thoughts on this except from coating/corrosion. 2. On my present boat I have a 24V electric system consisting of 3 banks with 2X100A 12V in serie in each bank. Also I have a windcharger purchased by the previous owner unfortunately this charger is only is only 12V. Does anyone know if I can use this charger by viring it to two batteries in one bank parallel or will this create a mass of sparks and fire. Or would it be possible to connect it only to one of the batteries in a bank as I presume the batteries will equalise themselves. Best regards From Marco on Cyprus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1515|1514|2003-04-13 09:33:10|nadim|Re: Electricity & Intergrated tanks|Hi Marco, On Sunday 13 April 2003 14:39, Marco Ahrens wrote: > 1. Does any one of you have experience of fuel and water tanks > integrated with the boats hull. As this to me would increase safety by > in effect creating a double bottom in parts of the boat It can work as you expect but if the tanks are vented, they ave to be vented outside the boat. That is the case for fuel but it might not be so for water. In any case integrating tanks with the boat construction is a good design ide as it increases the strength of the boat and saves place. iven if the tanks are not part of the hull, you could fix them in a way that add to the hull structural strength. If you want the safety of a double bottom, go for a double bottom at least under the water line. I don't think it it too difficult and the weight and extra price should not be to much. I also depends on where you are going to place the tanks, if they are close to the stern, then they won't be of much use as you seldom hit something there. Let us know what yo want to do exctly, the olume of the tanks, their placement, their construction, .... Choosing steel for material is already a good step towards safety. Nadim. PS. almlost all GRP boats have integrated tanks. | 1516|1514|2003-04-13 11:48:34|Glen|Re: Electricity & Intergrated tanks|Well I see that the question about tanks has been answered so I'll talk about your electrical problem. If your boat is now a 24 volt sytem and the wind charger is 12 volt they are NOT compatable. I do not know if the charger could be changed to produce 24 volts, I have not seen one but I have never looked for one. It might be wise to contact the manufacturer and ask the question to them. If it is not that old you might be able to find somone who wants it or trade for something of value you need. As for your battery problem this is all very easy to understand if you don't make the problem hard to understand. 2 - 12 volt batteries if wired parallel meaning the same + to + and - to - will still be 12 volts. The only thing gained is a stronger longer lasting battery. This how most boats are set up with the corresponding inverters and chargers etc. Should you wire 12 volt batteries in series or + to - to + to - your would have 24 volts. Being that you have doubled the output to 24 volts 12+12=24. This does not get any harder! If your boat has 24 volts and you want to change it to 12 volts you could then use the wind charger you have but you would also have to change everything that uses the 24 volts down to 12 volts. As I do not know what your boat uses this could be very costly as it would also have to include the motor's electrical system as well. Hope this answers your question!| 1517|1500|2003-04-13 13:25:29|nelstomlinson|Re: Designing for boat safety.|I think that Nadim and I are more or less on the same wavelength. We seem to agree that relying for safety on a strong hull is a good start, but not a good finish. About positive flotation: Steel weighs 490 lb/ft^3. 3/16th plate then weighs 490 lbs/64ft^2, or 7.67 lbs/ft^2. Urethane foam, such as builders use here to insulate houses, weighs about 2 lbs/ft^3, and sea water weighs 64 lbs/ft^3. That's 62 lbs flotation /ft^3. Pretty plainly, for the 40 footer with its 25,000 lbs displacement, we'd need 400 ft^3 of foam. Wow. Remember, though, that a tank of diesel has roughly neutral buoyancy (a 55-gallon drum of oil will float with an inch or two of free-board). I'm told that interior joinery is also neutral. The freshwater in your water tank will be neutral. So, that 400 ft^3 has a bit of safety margin. Getting back to the per square foot approach, a square foot of foam 1.5 inches thick would be 1.5/12=0.125 ft^3, and thus displace 7.75 lbs of water. So, 1.5 inches of foam would float the hull plate. One inch would float the 1/8th inch deck plate. As long as the plate is more than half the displacement of the boat, 3 inches of urethane over the entire inside would do the trick. I'd want that much for insulation, anyway. I suspect that the insulation, plus bulkheading off the forward few feet of the bow and last 18 inches or so of the stern, plus filling the bilge spaces with either foam logs or spray-in foam, would give positive flotation, even for a pack rat like me. The contractor I spoke to assured me that urethane foam doesn't support combustion. We tried to light a chunk, and I believe him. It slowly withered, a bit, as it got hot. He assured me that it didn't give off poison gasses as it heated. I haven't verified that yet. University of Alaska, Fairbanks, inadvertently did a relevant experiment while I was there, years ago. We learned that polyurethane foam (blue foam, commonly used in roofs and underground because it is ``waterproof'') DOES absorb enough water to significantly degrade its insulating ability. It still floated, after many years being submerged under 15-plus feet of water. By the way, Nadim, I interpreted the ``5 feet of insulation'' in the article to mean that the bilge was 5 feet deep, and filled all the way down. I would think that if you prepped the bilge with epoxy paint, sprayed in the foam, then put a coat of the epoxy over the top, the foam should never get wet, and there shouldn't be any water logging or corrosion problems. I agree that it was mighty brave to sail home without inspecting the hull. Or mighty foolish. About bulkheads, and sealing off the engine room: A big problem with watertight bulkheads is that you can get holed on both sides of one or more. I suggested bulkheading off the very ends of the boat. If the bulkheaded areas are portions which are (almost) entirely above the waterline, there shouldn't much danger of them being holed along with the rest of the boat. They won't take too much away from the accommodations, and could still be used to store sails, lines, and similar light stuff. Bulkheading off the engine, if possible, would help too, though this compartment couldn't be above the waterline. The article said that they'd somehow sealed the engine compartment in that 60 footer. You'd have to have a BIG snorkel, to pull in combustion air and some extra for ventilation. You would have to have a water-cooled engine. It might be a good idea to have your day tank in there. Nadim's idea of a fire-extinguisher-sized inspection port sounds sensible. You could mount a big Jabsco pump on a PTO, with big suction hoses running to each compartment. You'd want a pump which can handle pumping cats, rats, and whatever trash might land in the bilge. If you were holed, a 40HP diesel pump should be able to keep up with a fair sized hole. I don't know whether it would be practical to have an ``engine room'' on a smaller boat. I do know that I have lived close to engines a bit, and it's not good. It would be worth compromising the accommodations just a tiny bit to get the engine out of the cabin's air. The fact that it could add to safety just ices the cake. An engine needs good access all around. You need to be able to work on it occasionally, and to keep it clean. On that 60 footer in the Ocean Navigator article, they may have been able to bulkhead off a nice, big, stand-up engine room. I doubt that would be possible on any boat I could ever afford. It still might be possible to isolate the engine. If you could put it under the cockpit floor, for instance, you could make that floor bolt down over a neoprene gasket for access from above. You could fasten the longitudinal bulkheads to the longitudinal frames at the bottom, and to the cockpit frame above. The snorkel could be a couple of 4 inch tubes running to the top of the pilothouse, one on each side (sounds ugly!). As long as you could operate the engine without opening the compartment, you'd be set. Brent has said repeatedly that fastening transverse frames or bulkheads to the skin is a bad plan, and if we don't believe him, why are we betting our lives on his plans? So, how could we fasten a watertight transverse bulkhead? Tell me if this proposal sounds workable: Fasten angle irons to the longitudinals in a ring where the bulkhead is to go. Epoxy paint the inside of the hull. Bolt on to the ring a plywood bulkhead, and bed it against the hull with something like 5200. The bulkhead could be made of 2 layers of 1/2 inch plywood with a layer of glass between, and reinforced with one or two angle iron bolted on across the storage side, if need be. Now foam the hull, burying the edge of the bulkhead in the foam. This could be done with accommodations bulkheads, too, though they wouldn't be truly watertight if you cut a passage way through them. I suppose that you could rig up submarine-style doors, to be hung at sea, and stashed somewhere in port. You'd have to have a deck hatch to each such compartment, of course. This might be more gilding than the lily could stand. It seems obvious that flotation and bulkheads aren't going to work as afterthoughts; you'd have to plan for them, and build them in, right from the beginning. Nels| 1518|1514|2003-04-13 14:17:27|Stephen Wandling|Re: Electricity & Intergrated tanks|In the back of my mind I seem to recall systems where the battery configuration was able to switch from the series connection to parallel to allow charging at the individual battery voltage, while allowing your current series-parallel 24 V hookup. I'll keep looking. I think it was in HomePower Magazine, which is a great source stuff like this. Check them out at: http://www.homepower.com You can download all of their magazines for free! [I have no interest in this organization.] Question: I would assume that you have 24 V lighting. What other items do you currently power with the 24 V system? I am not that familiar with 24 V systems on boats and am wondering if conversion to a 12 V system might be advisable.| 1519|1514|2003-04-13 16:21:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Electricity & Intergrated tanks|There are DC to DC converters available now. Most PC boards with serial ports on them nowadays use DC to DC converters to get 12vdc for the port power from a 5vdc power supply. By the way, when you want as much capacity as you have 12 volt batteries are not a good choice. 6 volt batteries provide considerably more capacity because there is less wasted space in the case for cell separators and such. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco Ahrens" To: Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Electricity & Intergrated tanks > Hi folks, > > I have two questions which does not specifically concern origami boat building bur might be of interest anyhow. > > 1. Does any one of you have experience of fuel and water tanks integrated with the boats hull. As this to me would increase safety by in effect creating a double bottom in parts of the boat, ok you would loose the tank content should you go aground but the boat would remain nice and dry inside. Any negative thoughts on this except from coating/corrosion. > > 2. On my present boat I have a 24V electric system consisting of 3 banks with 2X100A 12V in serie in each bank. Also I have a windcharger purchased by the previous owner unfortunately this charger is only is only 12V. Does anyone know if I can use this charger by viring it to two batteries in one bank parallel or will this create a mass of sparks and fire. Or would it be possible to connect it only to one of the batteries in a bank as I presume the batteries will equalise themselves. > > Best regards > From Marco on Cyprus > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1520|1500|2003-04-13 16:57:41|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi Nels, On Sunday 13 April 2003 19:25, nelstomlinson wrote: > I think that Nadim and I are more or less on the same wavelength. We > seem to agree that relying for safety on a strong hull is a good > start, but not a good finish. I'll keep on playing the devils advocate even if we agree. > Steel weighs 490 lb/ft^3. 3/16th plate then weighs 490 lbs/64ft^2, or > 7.67 lbs/ft^2. > Urethane foam, such as builders use here to insulate houses, weighs > about 2 lbs/ft^3, and sea water weighs 64 lbs/ft^3. That's 62 lbs > flotation /ft^3. Do I hate imperial units! I switch to SI. So that's 32 Kg/m3 for the foam. Is that a closed cell foam? For how long time? In the air or in the water. You wouldn't want your boat to float just to see it sinking slowly. > Pretty plainly, for the 40 footer with its 25,000 lbs displacement, That's 11400 kg. Is that fully loaded? did you count the batteries, the chains, The two girl friends you made in the last harbor (OK they can swim so they don't need to be counted in the displacement) > we'd need 400 ft^3 of foam. Wow. 11.3 m3, yes wow. now those 11 m3 weight 350 Kg that you must also count in. Now you have a boat that has density 1 but that's not good enough because that doesn't actually float. You need the density to be 0.8. > Remember, though, that a tank of > diesel has roughly neutral buoyancy (a 55-gallon drum of oil will > float with an inch or two of free-board). I'm told that interior > joinery is also neutral. The freshwater in your water tank will be > neutral. So, that 400 ft^3 has a bit of safety margin. I'd recommend not going with the approximations. Take the hour or 2 that are needed and find the weight of your boat when immersed. > As long as the plate is more than half the displacement of the boat, 3 > inches of urethane over the entire inside would do the trick. I'd > want that much for insulation, anyway. You want the flotation to be as low as possible. so insulation on the top sides is not going to help you much. The indulation of the deck/roof is completely useless for floatation so it is best not to count it at all. You'll float but that's about it. >plus filling the bilge spaces with either foam logs or spray-in foam, Foam in the bilges is not a very good idea, it gets soaked (again only what you see with your own eye is the truth (don't even trust me on this one)) and you have no flotation when you need it. Buy some of the stuff you want to use. Weight it and then put it in a bucket with sea water and diesel so the diesel is in contact with the foam, put a weight on it and tell us about it in six months (weight it again then). > would give positive flotation would? Buy now I think you understood that would is not good enough. > The contractor I spoke to assured me that urethane foam doesn't > support combustion. We tried to light a chunk, and I believe him. It > slowly withered, a bit, as it got hot. Have you seen a fire from close? that's not the same as trying with a lighter. There is one source that I would trust (after I do my own test), the fire brigade. Give them a call they would certainly be happy to give you the information you are looking for. > He assured me that it didn't > give off poison gasses as it heated. I haven't verified that yet. I am interested in knowing when you have the information (the fire brigade might help here too.) > University of Alaska, Fairbanks, inadvertently did a relevant > experiment while I was there, years ago. We learned that polyurethane > foam (blue foam, commonly used in roofs and underground because it is > ``waterproof'') DOES absorb enough water to significantly degrade its > insulating ability. It still floated, after many years being > submerged under 15-plus feet of water. To what extent did it float? > By the way, Nadim, I interpreted the ``5 feet of insulation'' in the > article to mean that the bilge was 5 feet deep, and filled all the way > down. For me the bilge is the part that is not used,it's under the floor (tell me if I am wrong). then 5 feet of foam to fill the bilge definitely rings a bell. Something is wrong with that image. 60 ft is a big boat but believe me you don't want to loose 5 feet even under the bilge. Just consider the weight and money put in foam. how do you inspect a hull under 5 feet of foam. Now if the bilge is everything under the deck, the information doesn't help much. >I would think that if you prepped the bilge with epoxy paint, > sprayed in the foam, then put a coat of the epoxy over the top, the > foam should never get wet, and there shouldn't be any water logging or > corrosion problems. :-) I say you are wrong, very wrong. You'll get water logging and you corrosion problems will get worse. Someone with hands on experience could tell us if you or I am right? > About bulkheads, and sealing off the engine room: > > A big problem with watertight bulkheads is that you can get holed on > both sides of one or more. I suggested bulkheading off the very ends > of the boat. If the bulkheaded areas are portions which are (almost) > entirely above the waterline, there shouldn't much danger of them > being holed along with the rest of the boat. They won't take too much > away from the accommodations, and could still be used to store sails, > lines, and similar light stuff. Do you access it from the deck or from within the boat? > You would have to have a water-cooled engine. Except if you are going to build a sauna, you don't have much choice > Nadim's idea of a fire-extinguisher-sized inspection > port sounds sensible. It's not my idea. it is very sensible and extremely cheap. Have you counted the weight of the 12 Kg fire extinguisher_S_? >You could mount a big Jabsco pump on a PTO, What's that in plain English? > with big suction hoses running to each compartment. You'd want a pump > which can handle pumping cats, rats, and whatever trash might land in > the bilge. Do you know the size and weight of those things? Most pump problem are due to paper floating around. small stuff is as dangerous as big one and should not be under estimated. > If you were holed, a 40HP diesel pump should be able to > keep up with a fair sized hole. Hold on sailor. how are you going to connect it your engine? how big is it? can you run that without having the propeller rotating? if not, you'll never get 40 HP at the pump. And to finish destroying your dream about the mighty pump, a 40 HP pump is not worth a rat ass if you get any serious hole in you hull.If you want we can get to the figures. I don't say that you shouldn't actively try to pump the water out but one or two m3 of well placed foam might get a better result and cost much less. Foam is always ready, your engine not. > I don't know whether it would be practical to have an ``engine room'' > on a smaller boat. I do know that I have lived close to engines a > bit, and it's not good. It would be worth compromising the > accommodations just a tiny bit to get the engine out of the cabin's > air. The fact that it could add to safety just ices the cake. OK, I can tell you how I have done in my boat (well I have room in it but I think it still applies to small boats). What you want is to have the possibility to get close to your engine if it is in fire. if you have a frame around your engine (can be very close to the engine) and plank it with 2-3 cm thick wood so you can't see the engine any more, you have multiplied your chance. The planks can be bolted or hinged or slid in a U shape profile. The engine box doesn't have to be 100% water or air tight but it's definitely a plus. > Brent has said repeatedly that fastening transverse frames or > bulkheads to the skin is a bad plan Why is that? >, and if we don't believe him, why > are we betting our lives on his plans? Brent has experience but you might have an idea he didn't have yet. I like Brent's approach but while you or I might be pumping water out, Brent might be sipping a beer in Hawaii. No, I don't bet my life or my kids life on any of Brent's plans (or any other designer) because it's not about betting but being sure. > Tell me if this proposal sounds workable: Fasten angle irons to the > longitudinals in a ring where the bulkhead is to go. Epoxy paint the > inside of the hull. Bolt on to the ring a plywood bulkhead, and bed > it against the hull with something like 5200. The bulkhead could be > made of 2 layers of 1/2 inch plywood with a layer of glass between, > and reinforced with one or two angle iron bolted on across the storage > side, if need be. Now foam the hull, burying the edge of the bulkhead > in the foam. It does sound workable. What surface of bulkhead are we talking about here? How much does all this weight? >... > suppose that you could rig up submarine-style doors, to be hung at > ... I am not building a mono (the simple fact that I want to float and that a mono needs a few tons of lead to stand right make me choose a cat). That doesn't mean cat are safer by design. Looked at some cats lately? They all seem to have _BIG_ 2 panes doors-window so the owner feels like he is on a Riviera somewhere. I can't stop myself from seeing a big wave crash on the deck in front of the door and get in thought that big open door (yeah it's closed by then but it is still made of glass). U boat type doors, specially if the opening starts 30-50 cm from the floor, make a lot of sense. > It seems obvious that flotation and bulkheads aren't going to work as > afterthoughts; you'd have to plan for them, and build them in, right > from the beginning. What boat are you building? What are the dimentions? Twin or single keel? Cheers, Nadim. | 1521|1521|2003-04-13 21:55:15|Glen|twin keeler web site|Found this web site thought some of you might find it interesting! www.lerouge-yachts.com/mono_TKS.htm Glen| 1522|1489|2003-04-14 10:06:57|Red Green|Re: New 40 footer album|Hello Gord, Congratulations on the job well done on the 40 footer. Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing pictures from the maiden voyage. Gord, could you give some dimensions for your 40 footer. Beam, height from where you will attach whatever flooring you will use. How much tank/stowage will that leave below? I assume you will have berths fore and aft(possible staterooms). What are the sizes you expect to get out of the 40 footer? How much common area is left for galley and salon? Thanks for your input. Again well done, Daniel >From: "withamazinggrace" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New 40 footer album >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:34:54 -0000 > >Alex >I'll answer this one. The disc Alex referred to (for finishing SS >weld sites) is made by SAIT. It is called the SAITBLEND A54F- >Flexible PN:29271. >SAIT released them (to this marketplace at least) in Feb/2003. >Gord > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > > Hi Alex, Thanks for your report > > > > On Tuesday 08 April 2003 19:03, Alex Christie wrote: > > > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing > > > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of >course > > > not! > > > > Well you know what you have to do now. > > > > Cheers, Nadim. > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus| 1523|1500|2003-04-14 14:20:49|jalborey|Re: Insurance|About liability: Annie Hill, in her book "Voyaging on a small income", speaks highly of a German company, called Pantaenius (http://www.pantaenius.com), which apparently offers good insurance prices for covering boat's liability. Regards, Jesús| 1524|1500|2003-04-14 14:36:21|De Clarke|Re: Insurance |>> About liability: >> Annie Hill, in her book "Voyaging on a small income", speaks highly >> of a German company, called Pantaenius (http://www.pantaenius.com), >> which apparently offers good insurance prices for covering boat's >> liability. >> Regards, >> Jes�s I contacted them at one point, and iirc I was told they would not insure any boat in US waters. I asked whether there were unusual numbers of losses in US waters, and the representative after a brief pause said No, but there were an unusual number of lawsuits :-( so check w/them about the region you live/sail in... de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | : :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins : :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 1525|1489|2003-04-15 00:55:36|Gord Schnell|Re: New 40 footer album|Lots of questions....some too complex to address in an email. She is 40' on deck and just short of 42' - bow rollers aft bumpers (rudder guards). Beam is 11'11.5". The pilothouse and salon soles are designed to give 6'4" headroom, although that decreases in the forward v-berth. Tankage is 200 imp. gals. of water in 4 tanks - 2 tanks either side of the keel. The keel itself has been extended vertically to accommodate approx. 200 imp. gals of diesel. There is a 50 imp. gal. wastewater tank just forward of the keel. All tanks are integral to the hull. The engine/transmission is below the pilothouse floor between the two aft water tanks. Pilothouse is approx. 8' x 8' at floor level and salon is about 10' long and full hull width. V-berth sleeps 2, aft cabin (beneath the cockpit) sleeps 2, 2 sea berths under the decks of the salon sleep 2 and we may make the table drop into the salon seating to add 2 more (but I doubt it). Galley fills entire port side of the pilothouse to centerline. Nav. station and inside steering fill starboard side of the pilothouse. Head is immediately aft the v-berth. Just added a hard dodger this weekend. With bimini and side curtains, the cockpit can become a living area. Hope that gives an idea. Gord Red Green wrote: > > Hello Gord, > Congratulations on the job well done on the 40 footer. > Keep up the good work > and I look forward to seeing pictures from the maiden > voyage. Gord, could > you give some dimensions for your 40 footer. Beam, height > from where you > will attach whatever flooring you will use. How much > tank/stowage will that > leave below? I assume you will have berths fore and > aft(possible > staterooms). What are the sizes you expect to get out of > the 40 footer? How > much common area is left for galley and salon? Thanks for > your input. > Again well done, > Daniel > > >From: "withamazinggrace" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New 40 footer album > >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:34:54 -0000 > > > >Alex > >I'll answer this one. The disc Alex referred to (for > finishing SS > >weld sites) is made by SAIT. It is called the SAITBLEND > A54F- > >Flexible PN:29271. > >SAIT released them (to this marketplace at least) in > Feb/2003. > >Gord > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim > wrote: > > > Hi Alex, Thanks for your report > > > > > > On Tuesday 08 April 2003 19:03, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory > for detailing > > > > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable > wheel? Of > >course > > > > not! > > > > > > Well you know what you have to do now. > > > > > > Cheers, Nadim. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1526|1514|2003-04-15 14:06:03|sae140|Re: Electricity & Intergrated tanks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > Hi Marco, > > 1. Does any one of you have experience of fuel and water tanks > > integrated with the boats hull. While you are considering the installation of diesel fuel tanks, you may care to hear of the following experience. The event occurred whilst delivering an 18 ton yacht from Cowes (IoW) to Holland in early December last, whilst motoring into headwinds across the shoal grounds north-east of Calais in a moderating 7, but with the sea-state still rough from the previous day's gale ... The boat was thrown around with some violence, and despite being fitted with the usual baffled tanks, the diesel began frothing badly. Not surprisingly, the engine kept cutting out and required frequent bleeding under extremely difficult circumstances. Although the vessel was never in immediate danger, it could have been a far different story with a short-handed or novice crew on board. Following this event, I've discovered that commercial vessels are often fitted with 'spinners' - centrifugal devices which quite literally spin any air out of the diesel before it reaches the injector pump. Being lesser mortals, we came up with the idea of a 'feeder tank', which is now being installed in all new builds - being a nominal half gallon fuel tank mounted as centrally low down as possible in the vessel, and being supplied by 2 pipes from the main fuel tank(s). The upper (gravity return) pipe from the feeder tank allows air to escape, and the feeder tank is thus kept permanently 100% full and as air-free as possible. Take-off from the feeder tank is taken from just above the bottom of the tank, where any air still in suspension will be minimal. Usual precautions for periodic removal of water etc should be taken. All part-empty diesel tanks are subject to the risk of frothing from violent movement, whether they are fitted with baffles or not. By having a small permanently full feeder tank (which could be incorporated into the bottom of a new tank install), frothing should be eliminated. Colin| 1527|1500|2003-04-16 18:22:50|sae140|Re: Insurance|whilst looking through past posts I came across: "... the quotes of $30K seem to be reasonable for insurance damage on some minor mooring incidents." Think about that: your steel yacht hull nudges a workboat and you're both only the worse for a couple of square inches of paint - who cares ? Nudge a hitech balsa sandwich complete with toy rubbing stake and the lawyers are called in. One problem is that insurance claims are based largely on the cause and effect of an incident - not on the inherent suitability of the damaged craft to sustain reasonable knockabout wear and tear in the first place. Under British law, an object offered for sale has to be "fit for the purposes for which it was intended." Perhaps with regard to boats this ought to include the ability to withstand being touched by other boats. Or is it the idea that yacht-owners should keep their precious toys permanently in marinas wrapped-up in cotton-wool ?| 1528|1500|2003-04-16 18:31:32|nadim|Re: Insurance|On Thursday 17 April 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: > Under British law, an object offered for sale has to be "fit for the > purposes for which it was intended." Perhaps with regard to boats > this ought to include the ability to withstand being touched by other > boats. :-) Here is a idea, don't get into harbors and even less into marinas. We sailed a 28m boat, guess if we went to the marina or the commercial harbor. I am planning a 18m * 9m, even if I had the insurance and the superior skills needed to park that boat between 2 tupperware in the marina, I don't think I'd stand all the sweat on their face when I get in. Nadim.| 1529|1529|2003-04-16 18:32:39|sae140|Re: Unfold|I've placed a copy of 'Unfold' in the Files section - it's a fairly old public domain program which is none to easy to get hold of these days - just in case anyone fancies playing with it. I can't think of a better place than OrigamiBoats to hold a copy of this program. Colin| 1530|1530|2003-04-16 18:35:09|sae140|another unfold program|almost forgot to mention - there's a neat unfold cad program at http://www.revcad.com/SheetLightning| 1531|1531|2003-04-16 23:08:51|Alex and Kim Christie|insurance thru avoidance strategy|Ya! Nadim's got Brent's good idea; Brent never uses marinas, ever. If you don't go near the expensive Beneteaus, you simply aren't there to hit them in the first place. His twin keel configuration allows him to anchor in what he calls the "Low Rent District", that area in a harbour that dries at low tide where no single-keel boat (unless it had legs for the purpose -- something Brent details in his plans for the single keel configuration) would ever bother anchoring. Since no one ever wants it, he's never been hassled about using such spots as far as I know, and he rarely has any neighbours. As harbours and marinas grow morecrowded in many coastal areas, the use of shallow, drying bays for mooring is an excellent solution to the problem (as long as you don't plan on going anywhere at low tide...). We'll be building our boat as a twin keeler for this very reason. Colin's point about the fragility of some boat hulls is interesting to ponder; if someone builds a boat out of a material which can't stand any impacts without compromising it's integrity, are we as steel boat owners responsible for protecting them? This could be a scenario encountered when a fragile-hulled boat drags anchor and ends up snuggling with a steel boat. It is clear whose hull will end up with damage, and whose hull will endure no more than scratched paint. As long as you can prove he dragged onto you, you're in the clear, otherwise your boat might be painted as the agressor! Again, the single-keeled fragile boat is unlikely to be anchored near you if you are in Brent's low-rent mudflat zone, so my concerns about this may be unfounded. I was once broadsided by a small harbour ferry while resting down below on my 27 foot (glass) liveaboard sailboat; upon jumping up and sticking my head out of the hatch to see how and why the world was ending (it sounded quite bad down below), I was met with an angry barrage of verbal abuse from the skipper of the 20 foot Benford harbour ferry (plywood), as if I were somehow at fault, simply for being there. The fact that I was tied to a dock, whereas he was under way, seemed to have completely escaped his attention! His boat sustained no damage, while mine had a section of its rubrail ripped off. The owner of the company, a boatbuilder himself, refused to fix the problem even though I told him I wouldn't file an insurance claim if he just fixed the problem, but he met my simple request with a barrage of foul language well beyond the original barrage of the skipper. I've learned since then to never underestimate the possibility of people at fault for accidents to do their best to turn the tables and make themselves out as the victims. I call it a healthy paranoia, though I try to temper this with the knowledge that most true sailors are fair, honest and helpful people who more often than not take complete responibility for their actions. Another year later, our 36 foot teak-hulled motorsailer was t-boned by an irrate commercial fisherman (said by local dock-dwellers to be mentally unstable) on purpose because of his hatred of liveaboard boatpeople. I encountered the usual verbal abuse after I protested that he was going to split my hull in two. About a month after that, I was rammed in the transom by a fisherman's boat tied behind me whose gear had jammed in forward and full throttle. He was extremely apologetic, and since no harm was done I told him to not worry about it. I was thankful for my tough teak hull, but I think it was about then that I started to ponder the possibilities of steel for a hull... Dockside is definitely not always the safest place to moor, in my mind! Alex| 1532|1531|2003-04-18 03:38:00|sae140|Re: insurance thru avoidance strategy|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Ya! Nadim's got Brent's good idea; Brent never uses marinas, ever. > If you don't go near the expensive Beneteaus, you simply aren't > there to hit them in the first place Staying out of marinas ? Sure, if it's possible. No-one cringes more than yours truly at the thought of paying - sometimes just for the dubious priviledge of anchoring in an exposed harbour. But sometimes it's necessary. Anyone who sails around the English Channel knows that it can be impossible to gain sea-room if the weather suddenly deteriorates - we're talking about an area of water which on occasion can have horizon-to-horizon commercial traffic in the separation lanes, plus many car ferries crossing these lanes - often at the same time !! So not the place to head to for safe water .... So, if you get caught out in the Channel, running to a harbour is usually the only option available. This happened to me last year, when our 20 ton Spray - torn sails flapping around it's v e r y long 4" diameter steel bowsprit - sought sanctuary from a storm in the Royal Oostende Yacht Club Marina. As we limped in it was uncanny just how many skippers simultaneously considered that that was the moment for checking that their insurance documents were up to date .... I'll go on record here as saying it was the worst marina I have *ever* visited. There was zero hospitality for visitors, although a full dinner-jacket banquet was in full swing for members and their guests. And despite taking serious money from us, the electricity was switched off overnight. The following morning our exit was blocked by several pairs of Beneteaus to leeward, rafted onto a brand spanking new pontoon finger. These craft were being polished and prepared for a midday sales promotion, but as we started-up our big Ford diesel, the outermost boat of one pair wisely moved to allow us sufficient room to leave, and as we began to single our lines the other skipper nervously called across to ask if we wished him to move as well. I just couldn't help myself, and called back to ask if he would stay exactly where he was, as I was a little concerned that we might back into the new pontoon finger and damage it. "You mean you want my boat to act as your fender ?" came back the astonished voice. "Well - if you don't mind", says I, with tongue held firmly in cheek .... I have never seen a boat cast-off so quickly before. Steel boats - don't you just love 'em ? Colin| 1533|1533|2003-04-18 12:31:45|farmulation|ocean pearl|I saw the ocean pearl photo album and wonder if the boat is still for sale? Regards John| 1534|1533|2003-04-18 14:07:27|J & H Fuller|Re: ocean pearl|John, An ad in the current Buy Sell & Trade (Nanaimo) shows a 36' Brent Swain bilge keel sloop, loaded, for $60,000 obo. This one has a 35hp Kubota and is located in Union Bay. The ad says call Brian at 250 335 1719. I just did, no one home. The ocean pearl looks nice, pity it's got an outboard and no twin keel. Sorry I can't go look at this one, we're moving into a new house today. Another John. ----- Original Message ----- From: farmulation To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] ocean pearl I saw the ocean pearl photo album and wonder if the boat is still for sale? Regards John Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1535|1533|2003-04-18 14:32:06|John Doyle|Re: ocean pearl|Hello Another John -- Is there any way to look at the boat you mention on the Internet? I can't seem to find a "Buy Sell & Trade" for Nanaimo on the web (there are others, of course). Yet Another John -----Original Message----- From: J & H Fuller [mailto:jfuller@...] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 10:07 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] ocean pearl John, An ad in the current Buy Sell & Trade (Nanaimo) shows a 36' Brent Swain bilge keel sloop, loaded, for $60,000 obo. This one has a 35hp Kubota and is located in Union Bay. The ad says call Brian at 250 335 1719. I just did, no one home. The ocean pearl looks nice, pity it's got an outboard and no twin keel. Sorry I can't go look at this one, we're moving into a new house today. Another John. ----- Original Message ----- From: farmulation To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] ocean pearl I saw the ocean pearl photo album and wonder if the boat is still for sale? Regards John Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1536|1533|2003-04-18 14:40:11|J & H Fuller|Re: ocean pearl|Sorry it's not an online paper, but there is another Brent Swain boat in buysell.com. Good luck Is there any way to look at the boat you mention on the Internet? I can't seem to find a "Buy Sell & Trade" for Nanaimo on the web (there are others, of course). John, An ad in the current Buy Sell & Trade (Nanaimo) shows a 36' Brent Swain bilge keel sloop, loaded, for $60,000 obo. This one has a 35hp Kubota and is located in Union Bay. The ad says call Brian at 250 335 1719. I just did, no one home. The ocean pearl looks nice, pity it's got an outboard and no twin keel. Sorry I can't go look at this one, we're moving into a new house today. Another John. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1537|1537|2003-04-19 03:15:36|sae140|(no subject)|Alex recently wrote: "His [Brent Swain's] twin keel configuration allows him to anchor in what he calls the "Low Rent District", that area in a harbour that dries at low tide where no single-keel boat (unless it had legs for the purpose -- something Brent details in his plans for the single keel configuration) would ever bother anchoring. Since no one ever wants it, he's never been hassled about using such spots as far as I know, and he rarely has any neighbours." A few words about twin-keelers and 'low-rent districts' ... Glad to hear that's the case elsewhere - over here drying moorings are very much the norm; they are already over-crowded; and yes - you'll almost certainly have to pay to anchor there (!). Something to bear in mind if you're planning on a visit to the UK. This is exactly the subject about which I swapped a few words with Annie Hill recently - she confirmed that free moorings (and anchoring) can be found just about everywhere *except* the southern half of the UK. I think it's fair to say that Britain is the home of the twin-keeler, but their popularity here is principally due to a dearth of deep- water moorings rather than their sailing characteristics. Every twin- keeler skipper I know would much rather sail with a classic full keel such as those favoured by the Scandinavians, who are blessed with deep water. However, if you plan on drying-out on a regular basis, or for maintenance, then twin keels are certainly the way to go. If you've a deep keel, then I'd use drying-out legs with caution, and never rely on them 'in absentia', as I've seen several cases where even massively over-built professional legs have collapsed, due to the boat being buffeted by strong winds and rough seas when taking the ground. Afloat is ok, high and dry is ok, it's that in-between state which can quite literally take your legs from under you. And to make things worse, when the hull goes over it then falls onto the broken leg, compounding the damage. On balance, I would guess that twin keels fitted with torpedo bulbs, together with Brent's existing skeg would probably provide the best all-round compromise. On a separate topic, I'd be interested to learn whether Brent recommends extra ballast be installed if junk rigs are fitted to his hulls, especially the twin-keelers. Regards, Colin| 1538|1489|2003-04-19 06:06:34|Red Green|Re: New 40 footer album|Hi Gord and all, Your answers were what I needed to hear. Looks/sounds like ample roominess. Who'd have thunk it by the pics. Most pics lack scale. Sorry for the heavy questioning. Yours by far the most pictorially documented 40 on this site. Hope you can add more pics as everything comes together for you. After all Q and A are what most of us are here for. Builders or thinking about it. Thanks so much, best of luck, Cheers, Daniel Chicago. >From: Gord Schnell >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: New 40 footer album >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:56:37 -0700 > >Lots of questions....some too complex to address in an >email. >She is 40' on deck and just short of 42' - bow rollers aft >bumpers (rudder guards). Beam is 11'11.5". The pilothouse >and salon soles are designed to give 6'4" headroom, although >that decreases in the forward v-berth. Tankage is 200 imp. >gals. of water in 4 tanks - 2 tanks either side of the keel. >The keel itself has been extended vertically to accommodate >approx. 200 imp. gals of diesel. There is a 50 imp. gal. >wastewater tank just forward of the keel. All tanks are >integral to the hull. The engine/transmission is below the >pilothouse floor between the two aft water tanks. Pilothouse >is approx. 8' x 8' at floor level and salon is about 10' >long and full hull width. V-berth sleeps 2, aft cabin >(beneath the cockpit) sleeps 2, 2 sea berths under the decks >of the salon sleep 2 and we may make the table drop into the >salon seating to add 2 more (but I doubt it). Galley fills >entire port side of the pilothouse to centerline. Nav. >station and inside steering fill starboard side of the >pilothouse. Head is immediately aft the v-berth. >Just added a hard dodger this weekend. With bimini and side >curtains, the cockpit can become a living area. >Hope that gives an idea. >Gord > >Red Green wrote: > > > > Hello Gord, > > Congratulations on the job well done on the 40 footer. > > Keep up the good work > > and I look forward to seeing pictures from the maiden > > voyage. Gord, could > > you give some dimensions for your 40 footer. Beam, height > > from where you > > will attach whatever flooring you will use. How much > > tank/stowage will that > > leave below? I assume you will have berths fore and > > aft(possible > > staterooms). What are the sizes you expect to get out of > > the 40 footer? How > > much common area is left for galley and salon? Thanks for > > your input. > > Again well done, > > Daniel > > > > >From: "withamazinggrace" > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New 40 footer album > > >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 21:34:54 -0000 > > > > > >Alex > > >I'll answer this one. The disc Alex referred to (for > > finishing SS > > >weld sites) is made by SAIT. It is called the SAITBLEND > > A54F- > > >Flexible PN:29271. > > >SAIT released them (to this marketplace at least) in > > Feb/2003. > > >Gord > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim > > wrote: > > > > Hi Alex, Thanks for your report > > > > > > > > On Tuesday 08 April 2003 19:03, Alex Christie wrote: > > > > > to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory > > for detailing > > > > > work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable > > wheel? Of > > >course > > > > > not! > > > > > > > > Well you know what you have to do now. > > > > > > > > Cheers, Nadim. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail| 1539|1539|2003-04-19 12:18:37|Alex and Kim Christie|junk-rig thoughts and ballast|I would with junk rig you'd theoretically need less ballast, since that type of rig is considered low aspect and puts less heeling forces on the hull under sail. Anyone out there with junk rig who can comment on this? Alex| 1541|1541|2003-04-20 08:33:28|greenguy2ca|Buy & Sell|On Vancouver Island does the buy & sell have a web access? If not would anyone know the phone number. I wish to place an ad for a mast and engine for my boat located near Nanaimo and I am currently working in Ontario. Thanks ... Gary| 1542|1541|2003-04-20 11:16:12|J & H Fuller|Re: Buy & Sell|Hi Gary Looks like you have a choice. Toll Free 1 877 753 9115 or e-mail freeads@... I think you'll get a better ad from using e-mail. Unless you actually can talk to someone on the phone. If you like, send me a copy off the list and I'll check it in the paper for you. John....... in Campbell River. ----- Original Message ----- From: greenguy2ca To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 5:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Buy & Sell On Vancouver Island does the buy & sell have a web access? If not would anyone know the phone number. I wish to place an ad for a mast and engine for my boat located near Nanaimo and I am currently working in Ontario. Thanks ... Gary Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.465 / Virus Database: 263 - Release Date: 25/03/2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1543|1090|2003-04-20 12:18:01|claudepoitras|Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > Alex, Please count me in! Please keep me posted on the particulars. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alex Christie [mailto:origamiboats@t...] > Subject: [origamiboats] Origami boatbuilding course announcement > > We are in the early planning stages of a 2 week course called > Introduction to Origami Steel Boatbuilding Techniques. Is there any further word on this Origami boatbuilding course? Is the date established yet. I know that Brent has to get back, first.| 1544|1544|2003-04-20 13:20:29|Alex and Kim Christie|Buy & Sell vs. Buy, Sell and Trade|Just to clarify, the free advertising paper that people are refering to on Vancouver Island is actually called "Buy, Sell, and Trade", though all us locals call it Buy'n'Sell. It is a family-owned operation that prints only on paper (no web format). I think it is THE main commerce conduit for used stuff on Vancouver Island and some people read it religiously looking for deals. The actual one called "Buy and Sell" is based in Vancouver, and is available online as well at www.buysell.com . Vancouver Islanders advertise there if they want to reach a wider audience than the island. It is owned by Trader Publications (same one that does Truck Trader, Auto Trader, etc). It isn't free, but it has very wide readership being available in both print and web format. You can look at the version from the previous week for free, otherwise the current edition is a few dollars (via credit card). I always look at the free version first, then get the current one if I don't find what I need. Alex| 1545|1539|2003-04-20 17:27:58|sae140|Re: junk-rig thoughts and ballast|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > I would with junk rig you'd theoretically need less ballast, since > that type of rig is considered low aspect and puts less heeling > forces on the hull under sail Yeong, a bilged-keel Kingfisher 30, had an extra 112 lbs of lead added to each keel when it was converted to junk rig, to offset the weight of the mast, which was of hollow wood construction. This is what stimulated my enquiry. Colin| 1546|1541|2003-04-20 18:33:27|greenguy2ca|Buy & Sell|Oookay.... so following John's suggestion I went to www.bstonline.ca/ Is this the same publication you are referring to Alex? Thanks... Gary| 1547|1541|2003-04-20 20:04:46|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Buy & Sell|Yep, www.bstonline.ca is the free one (Buy, Sell and Trade) on Vancouver island. That page simply gives you a form with fields for your information, and you then click submit ad, and it's good to go. Your ad goes for 3 weeks. Photo ads can be done too, for a fee. www.buysell.com is the one for Vancouver which has the last week's addition online free, or the current week for a few bucks. Alex > Oookay.... so following John's suggestion I went to www.bstonline.ca/ > > Is this the same publication you are referring to Alex? > > Thanks... Gary | 1548|1548|2003-04-21 00:09:15|gjm123smau|40 ft origami boat|Gordon Nice job on your dream . What is the beer barrel for water storage I HOPE Alex when is the course in origami boat building going to happen seems like there is interest stirring again. Regards Graeme| 1549|1548|2003-04-21 01:16:19|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: 40 ft origami boat|Hi all, Regarding the idea for the course, I would like to do it, but unfortunately I am still lacking resources (ie rural land-space) to set it up until we sell our current house. Just the usual realities creeping in when trying to set something like this up! As a former student of a shipwright school, I should have known better that it takes plenty of time to develop something like this, but I believe it will come together at some point. I'll keep y'all posted as soon as something develops. Regards, Alex| 1550|1548|2003-04-21 01:52:10|Graeme Mitchell|Re: 40 ft origami boat|Double bugga<<<<<<<<<<<<< I was looking foward to a hoilday in Canada Graeme ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex and Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] 40 ft origami boat Hi all, Regarding the idea for the course, I would like to do it, but unfortunately I am still lacking resources (ie rural land-space) to set it up until we sell our current house. Just the usual realities creeping in when trying to set something like this up! As a former student of a shipwright school, I should have known better that it takes plenty of time to develop something like this, but I believe it will come together at some point. I'll keep y'all posted as soon as something develops. Regards, Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1551|1548|2003-04-22 00:44:23|Gord Schnell|Re: 40 ft origami boat|The beer keg is "in storage" but eventually two kegs will be mounted in that location to store wine on board. Gord gjm123smau wrote: > > Gordon > Nice job on your dream . What is the beer barrel for water > storage I > HOPE > > Alex when is the course in origami boat building going to > happen > seems like there is interest stirring again. > > Regards > Graeme > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1552|1552|2003-04-27 12:40:43|Jon Richards|U.K. BOATS .|Hello everyone , I live in Perth Australia and am going on holiday to the U.K. in early May , as l have never seen one of Brents boats and am considering building one does anyone know of any being built or in the water in the U.K. that I could go and look at . any help much apreciated . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1553|1552|2003-04-27 14:26:17|edward_stoneuk|Re: U.K. BOATS .|Jon, I am building a 36' in the UK midlands. You are welcome to visit and have a look at it. Regards, Ted| 1554|1554|2003-05-02 11:04:04|greenguy2ca|Used Diesel|Hello All: I am looking for a used diesel for my 36' bilge keel and saw this one advertised for $3500 cdn. Does anyone recognize this name brand or should I run in the opposite direction. Thanks .... Gary 1.5 Lt 30 HP The British - Tempest Marine Diesel -FWC c/w new jabsco impeller pump ... 0 hours since overhaul...2:1 Newage/PRM hydraulic gear .. right hand propeller (c/w from rear) ...c/w companion flange .. .2pc coupling....both supplied ..COMES WITH FACTORY MANUAL| 1555|1554|2003-05-02 18:17:59|sae140|Re: Used Diesel|They are made a few miles from here at Stamford, Lincolnshire ("here" being Boston, Lincolnshire). More of a commercial/ military engine supplier than leisure. Their site is: http://www.thornycroftengines.co.uk/ Regards Colin| 1556|1062|2003-05-04 06:22:08|sae140|Book|Received my copy of Origami Metal Boatbuilding today, and have just spent most of the morning buried in it's pages. Truly one of those books you just can't put down ! As a source of good ideas and inspiration it's worth every penny and, in case it's of interest to others, Cliff Swain (Brent's dad) enclosed a note mentioning that Brent "sailed to Tonga last year in his boat, and is returning home this June." Out of all the dozens of excellent ideas in the book, I found myself at odds with only 2: one which can't be worth the effort and the other being totally unrealistic. De-salinating sea-water by evaporation using fossil fuel as a power source doesn't appear to be worth the hassle or the investment in effort or complexity, as you're not exactly carrying a huge supply of fuel to begin with. Seems to me you'd be better off installing another fresh-water tank or carrying a couple of extra 5 gallon containers when you first set off. If you're in a survival situation, the amount of water you could generate by using up your diesel (which you might be grateful for later ?) would probably not make much difference to the outcome. Better by far to carry a 60ml syringe and a gastric tube (used by farmers to tube-feed weak lambs - get 'em from your local agro store) and self-administer salt-water enemas. This will keep you alive until the rains come, or when you finally sight land, at which point you might be glad you still have some diesel on board. Towing a 100ft line behind your boat to trip the self-steering gear won't give "... a man overboard a fair amount of time to reach it", and may encourage sloppy seamanship in the misguided belief that it will. Sod's Law being what it is, you'll be going over the side at 2 in the morning on a pitch dark night with the boat being driven at full hull speed. That'll give you a whole 10 seconds to grap the rope - but sadly it doesn't quite work like that ..... You'll hit the water unexpectedly, and probably head-first. Your first reaction will be one of shock, disbelief, and complete disorientation - you won't even know which way is up. By the time you've surfaced and realised what's going on (and in cold water, forced yourself to breath), and remembered that you're towing a line, it's too late. Even if you're towing a much longer line (say 250 ft), the problem is that you need to see your boat in order to know in which direction the line can be found. If there's anything of a sea running, the boat will be out of sight for much of the time (ask any scuba diver what the world looks like from a few inches above the surface when there'a a sea running ...). By the time you've done a 360 scan under those conditions - even on a clear night - the boat's long gone. On a dirty night, you've no chance at all. Better by far to make sure you don't go over the side in the first place ! I'd suggest you don't trail a line at all, but instead clip the end of a tripping line onto anyone alone above decks, whether in the cockpit or not. Clipping on by habit is the key. If you really want to invent a stand-alone device for tripping self- steering gear (which is most desirable), then you really need to make it "fail safe" - i.e. it will trip if you *don't* do something (then by inference, it 'confirms your presence on the boat') - say some sort of timing device which will trip the self-steering should it not be manually reset at reasonably short intervals. Otherwise - an excellent read. When Brent returns, I must ask him if he'll also consider addressing junk rig issues... Colin| 1557|1554|2003-05-04 07:46:37|islands502000|Re: Used Diesel|-- Gaty, Those engines are good, and parts are available but I belive you can do better, I have a used 4-71 detroit, w/gear I will take $500 us for it needs an InFrame kit it is heat exchanger cooled with pumps. and a MG 502 trans, also have a S/S shaft and prop, - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greenguy2ca" wrote: > Hello All: I am looking for a used diesel for my 36' bilge keel and > saw this one advertised for $3500 cdn. Does anyone recognize this > name brand or should I run in the opposite direction. > > Thanks .... Gary > > > > 1.5 Lt 30 HP The British - Tempest Marine Diesel -FWC c/w new > jabsco impeller pump ... 0 hours since overhaul...2:1 Newage/PRM > hydraulic gear .. right hand propeller (c/w from rear) ...c/w > companion flange .. .2pc coupling....both supplied > ..COMES WITH FACTORY MANUAL | 1558|1558|2003-05-05 20:43:15|Bert Eggers|Bow Rollers...|I'm trying to design a bow roller for carring the anchor chain...and I'm not sure which way to go. What type of roller have you used? The one's in the catalogs seem so expensive. What works for you? Diameter? Material? Sure would appreciate your experience. And thanks for all the good thoughts. Bert in Saginaw, Mi| 1559|1558|2003-05-06 16:28:44|nadim|Re: Bow Rollers...|Hi, On Tuesday 06 May 2003 02:43, Bert Eggers wrote: > I'm trying to design a bow roller for carring the anchor chain...and I'm > not sure which way to go. What type of roller have you used? The > one's in the catalogs seem so expensive. What works for you? > Diameter? Material? Sure would appreciate your experience. And thanks > for all the good thoughts. > Bert in Saginaw, Mi Depends on the chain, rope and anchor you want to use. Gives us more information or follow this advice: Find a catalog which gives dimentions and material designation or go to a harbor and find something you'd like to have, mesure, draw and build. Not more complicated than that. cheers Nadim. | 1560|1560|2003-05-07 19:51:37|Bert Eggers|Re: bow roller material and size...|Hi Nadim and all, I'd love to hear what others have used for bow rollers....Material and diameter... The boat we're trying to equip is a 34 footer with about 6 tons displacement. I'm thinking of 5/8" line and perhaps the stronger 1/4" chain, does that help? In my Great Lakes area, the only ones I see in the harbor are quite generic, and not "custom made"... I've read Brent's book, wondering if any have tried his approach? Thanks for the help, if you might care to respond. Bert in Saginaw, Mi > Depends on the chain, rope and anchor you want to use. Gives us more > information or follow this advice: > Find a catalog which gives dimentions and material designation or go to a > harbor and find something you'd like to have, mesure, draw and build. Not > more complicated than that. > > cheers Nadim. | 1562|1554|2003-05-09 16:46:29|rbyzitter2001|Re: Used Diesel|Hello, Just for the record, I have an Isuzu 3LB1 (25hp)low hours with a new key start panel wet manifold but no gear, $3200.00 Can. there is a file in the files section on it. I also have a Isuzu 4cyl C240 56hp marine engine, key start panel, sump pump, drive plate and transmission adapter. I would like to get $3500.00 Can. for this. These are both well proven engine on the BC coast. Cheers. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "islands502000" wrote: > -- > Gaty, > > Those engines are good, and parts are available but I belive you > can do better, > > I have a used 4-71 detroit, w/gear I will take $500 us for it > needs an InFrame kit it is heat exchanger cooled with pumps. and a > MG 502 trans, also have a S/S shaft and prop, > > > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "greenguy2ca" > wrote: > > Hello All: I am looking for a used diesel for my 36' bilge keel > and > > saw this one advertised for $3500 cdn. Does anyone recognize this > > name brand or should I run in the opposite direction. > > > > Thanks .... Gary > > > > > > > > 1.5 Lt 30 HP The British - Tempest Marine Diesel -FWC c/w new > > jabsco impeller pump ... 0 hours since overhaul...2:1 Newage/PRM > > hydraulic gear .. right hand propeller (c/w from rear) ...c/w > > companion flange .. .2pc coupling....both supplied > > ..COMES WITH FACTORY MANUAL | 1563|1563|2003-05-12 10:02:08|undrsol|POR-15|Has anyone ever used POR-15 to recoat a hull? Seems like it might be a great solution and easier than blasting to white metal. Any advice or feedback appreciated| 1564|1564|2003-05-14 20:23:13|sae140|Steel choice|Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and am now firming up plans. There are just a couple of final points I'd seek advice on: Firstly the choice of steel thickness. Over here in the UK we can no longer get steel in imperial thicknesses, only in 3, 4, 5, 6 mm etc. 1/8" is equal to 3mm, but the 3/16" recommended for Brent's hulls is 4.76 mm. Ted Stone (the only other known builder in the UK) has chosen 5mm for his 36 ft hull, which makes sense, and I'd do the same if building the 36. However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. With 6mm for the keels and skeg, and 3mm topsides, as standard. I'd appreciate any views. Secondly, I'm finding it almost impossible to source pre-primed steel in decent sized sheets over here. Would anyone consider blasting and priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull has been completed ? I'm dreading the process of blasting the inside, so priming before starting work has it's attractions. Thanks in advance. "D-day" fast approaches ...... Colin| 1565|1565|2003-05-15 11:38:03|Paul Faulkner|Re: sandblasting|Colin, I can't comment on steel thicknesses for your boat, but I do have something to say about blasting. I'm have plated a 29' semi-displacement power boat in Phoenix, Arizona. It is not an origami design. I thought it would be wise to blast and prime before plating, so I attempted to do so. I ended up blasting only one side of each sheet, figuring that I'd prime this side and put it on the inside. I needed to blast twelve 4' x 10' 10 guage sheets. I rented a tow-behind compressor that put out 125psi and 185cfm. The blasting pot that I got was a 100lb pot. Both of these were the biggest I could find. This cost about $175US for a day. I worked a deal to keep it for a weekend for the same price, which was a good thing, because I had the thing going both days. I used 2400 lbs of 20 silica sand (200 lbs per side) that cost around $170US. Each side took 1/2 hour just to blast. Moving the steel into and out of place took a couple of friends (persuaded with beer) and additional time. If I had it to do over, I would never have done this. It was very hard and hot (gotta wear a special jacket, gloves, and helmet), even though it was only 75-80 degrees F outside. All the welds inside will still need to be cleaned, and blasting is preferred. The outside needs to be blasted. I got a quote from a professional sandblaster. He has a bigger compressor and blasting pot. He'll do the whole thing (inside and out) for $800, and can do it in less than a day. Prior to my blasting experience, I could not find any detailed information on the process and costs, so I went into it blindly. Hopefully, the information that I have provided will allow others to make a more informed choice. Paul F. ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel choice Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and am now firming up plans. There are just a couple of final points I'd seek advice on: Firstly the choice of steel thickness. Over here in the UK we can no longer get steel in imperial thicknesses, only in 3, 4, 5, 6 mm etc. 1/8" is equal to 3mm, but the 3/16" recommended for Brent's hulls is 4.76 mm. Ted Stone (the only other known builder in the UK) has chosen 5mm for his 36 ft hull, which makes sense, and I'd do the same if building the 36. However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. With 6mm for the keels and skeg, and 3mm topsides, as standard. I'd appreciate any views. Secondly, I'm finding it almost impossible to source pre-primed steel in decent sized sheets over here. Would anyone consider blasting and priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull has been completed ? I'm dreading the process of blasting the inside, so priming before starting work has it's attractions. Thanks in advance. "D-day" fast approaches ...... Colin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1566|1564|2003-05-15 11:44:50|nadim|Re: Steel choice|Hi colin, On Thursday 15 May 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: > Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and > am now firming up plans. My advice is to get started ASAP. > However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I > must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. I understand the temptation but could you please tell us what _your_ motivation is? > Would anyone consider blasting and > priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull > has been completed ? I also thought about this a lot, from the technical point of view, there is no difference. good luck, Nadim. | 1567|1565|2003-05-15 11:53:06|nadim|Re: sandblasting|Hi Paul, On Thursday 15 May 2003 17:50, Paul Faulkner wrote: > ... > Prior to my blasting experience, I could not find any detailed > information on the process and costs, so I went into it blindly. > Hopefully, the information that I have provided will allow others to > make a more informed choice. Could anyone who has blasted the hull oneself (after the hull was build) tell us about his experience so we get even more informed about the process? Nadim. | 1568|1565|2003-05-15 14:49:08|John Jones|Re: sandblasting|Sand blasting gives a good clean holding pattern on the metal but, the associated mess (sand gets "into" EVERYTHING) is always a problem as well as silica is no good for the lungs,bearings,pumps or valves. An other useful method is high pressure water blasting (10,000 to 40,000 psi) with an orbital head spray and a small ammount of sand or glass beads added...it's not the easiest gun to hold onto and it's REALLY LOUD but it does a good job and is not harmfull to the environment or the operator and someone can be at work on the port side while the starbored side is being blasted...wear a raincoat;and if you use the abrassive a face shield would help. The water runs off and all is kewl. Be carefull though... high pressure water has been used as a cutting tool too, for steel, coral, stone, marble, sponge, plastic, wood, people, etc., etc., etc. ---------- >From: "Paul Faulkner" >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] sandblasting >Date: Thu, May 15, 2003, 11:50 > > Colin, > > I can't comment on steel thicknesses for your boat, but I do have something > to say about blasting. > > I'm have plated a 29' semi-displacement power boat in Phoenix, Arizona. It > is not an origami design. I thought it would be wise to blast and prime > before plating, so I attempted to do so. I ended up blasting only one side > of each sheet, figuring that I'd prime this side and put it on the inside. > I needed to blast twelve 4' x 10' 10 guage sheets. I rented a tow-behind > compressor that put out 125psi and 185cfm. The blasting pot that I got was > a 100lb pot. Both of these were the biggest I could find. This cost about > $175US for a day. I worked a deal to keep it for a weekend for the same > price, which was a good thing, because I had the thing going both days. I > used 2400 lbs of 20 silica sand (200 lbs per side) that cost around $170US. > Each side took 1/2 hour just to blast. Moving the steel into and out of > place took a couple of friends (persuaded with beer) and additional time. > > If I had it to do over, I would never have done this. It was very hard and > hot (gotta wear a special jacket, gloves, and helmet), even though it was > only 75-80 degrees F outside. > > All the welds inside will still need to be cleaned, and blasting is > preferred. The outside needs to be blasted. > > I got a quote from a professional sandblaster. He has a bigger compressor > and blasting pot. He'll do the whole thing (inside and out) for $800, and > can do it in less than a day. > > Prior to my blasting experience, I could not find any detailed information > on the process and costs, so I went into it blindly. Hopefully, the > information that I have provided will allow others to make a more informed choice. > > Paul F. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Steel choice > > > Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and > am now firming up plans. > > There are just a couple of final points I'd seek advice on: > > Firstly the choice of steel thickness. Over here in the UK we can no > longer get steel in imperial thicknesses, only in 3, 4, 5, 6 mm etc. > 1/8" is equal to 3mm, but the 3/16" recommended for Brent's hulls is > 4.76 mm. Ted Stone (the only other known builder in the UK) has > chosen 5mm for his 36 ft hull, which makes sense, and I'd do the same > if building the 36. > > However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I > must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. With 6mm for > the keels and skeg, and 3mm topsides, as standard. I'd appreciate > any views. > > Secondly, I'm finding it almost impossible to source pre-primed steel > in decent sized sheets over here. Would anyone consider blasting and > priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull > has been completed ? I'm dreading the process of blasting the > inside, so priming before starting work has it's attractions. > > Thanks in advance. "D-day" fast approaches ...... > > > Colin > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1569|1564|2003-05-15 14:52:58|John Jones|Re: Steel choice|4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. (I'm not so good with metric) ---------- >From: nadim >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice >Date: Thu, May 15, 2003, 11:48 > > Hi colin, > On Thursday 15 May 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: >> Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and >> am now firming up plans. > My advice is to get started ASAP. > >> However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I >> must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. > I understand the temptation but could you please tell us what _your_ > motivation is? > >> Would anyone consider blasting and >> priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull >> has been completed ? > I also thought about this a lot, from the technical point of view, there is > no difference. > > good luck, Nadim. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1570|1564|2003-05-15 15:07:54|Stephen Wandling|Re: Steel choice|4 mm is about 0.1574803 inches, which is bit more than 1/8". 5 mm is about 0.1968504 inches, which is a bit more than 3/16". 1/4" is about 6.35 mm. I agree. John Jones wrote: > 4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. > (I'm > not so good with metric) > > ---------- > >From: nadim > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice > >Date: Thu, May 15, 2003, 11:48 > > > > > Hi colin, > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: > >> Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - > and > >> am now firming up plans. > > My advice is to get started ASAP. > > > >> However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I > >> must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. > > I understand the temptation but could you please tell us what _your_ > > > motivation is? > > > >> Would anyone consider blasting and > >> priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the > hull > >> has been completed ? > > I also thought about this a lot, from the technical point of view, > there is > > no difference. > > > > good luck, Nadim. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -- Sophocles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1571|1564|2003-05-15 17:33:52|nadim|Re: Steel choice|Hi, On Thursday 15 May 2003 20:54, John Jones wrote: > 4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. > (I'm not so good with metric) for those of you using a unix computer the 'units' program is of great help. ex : $ units '(1/4) inch' 'mm' * 6.35 / 0.15748031 $ units '(3/16) inch' 'mm' * 4.7625 / 0.20997375 If I understand you right, the plan asks for 3/16 inch (+/- 4.8mm) but you want to use 4mm instead for 5mm. Why do you want to do so? Nadim. | 1572|1564|2003-05-15 22:35:29|Keith Green|Re: Steel choice|Actually is 5/32 or .1575. Inches = millimeters divided by 25.4. keith ----- Original Message ----- From: John Jones To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice 4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. (I'm not so good with metric) ---------- >From: nadim >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice >Date: Thu, May 15, 2003, 11:48 > > Hi colin, > On Thursday 15 May 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: >> Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and >> am now firming up plans. > My advice is to get started ASAP. > >> However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I >> must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. > I understand the temptation but could you please tell us what _your_ > motivation is? > >> Would anyone consider blasting and >> priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull >> has been completed ? > I also thought about this a lot, from the technical point of view, there is > no difference. > > good luck, Nadim. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1573|1564|2003-05-15 22:38:00|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel choice|Bloody metrics I have to live with both as i finished school at the change over point and missed out on the real meaning of metric life. Old geeeezer. 1 INCH = 25.4 mm 1/2 in =12.7 mm 1/4 in = 6.35mm 1/8= 3.175mm 1/16 =1.587 5 mm The change to Metric was one of the biggest wastes of money of all times in Australia ABSOLUTE B/S DAMN THE POLITICIANS an the people that made a fortune out of it . Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 02:53:01 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice 4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. (I'm not so good with metric) ---------- >From: nadim >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice >Date: Thu, May 15, 2003, 11:48 > > Hi colin, > On Thursday 15 May 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: >> Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and >> am now firming up plans. > My advice is to get started ASAP. > >> However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I >> must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. > I understand the temptation but could you please tell us what _your_ > motivation is? > >> Would anyone consider blasting and >> priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull >> has been completed ? > I also thought about this a lot, from the technical point of view, there is > no difference. > > good luck, Nadim. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1574|1564|2003-05-15 22:44:09|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel choice|I think you should be able to buy 3.5 mm plate ??? Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 03:08:08 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice 4 mm is about 0.1574803 inches, which is bit more than 1/8". 5 mm is about 0.1968504 inches, which is a bit more than 3/16". 1/4" is about 6.35 mm. I agree. John Jones wrote: > 4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. > (I'm > not so good with metric) > > ---------- > >From: nadim > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice > >Date: Thu, May 15, 2003, 11:48 > > > > > Hi colin, > > On Thursday 15 May 2003 00:22, sae140 wrote: > >> Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - > and > >> am now firming up plans. > > My advice is to get started ASAP. > > > >> However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I > >> must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. > > I understand the temptation but could you please tell us what _your_ > > > motivation is? > > > >> Would anyone consider blasting and > >> priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the > hull > >> has been completed ? > > I also thought about this a lot, from the technical point of view, > there is > > no difference. > > > > good luck, Nadim. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -- Sophocles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1575|1564|2003-05-16 00:14:16|Glen|Re: Steel choice|Colin As you I pondered the idea of buying pre-primed plate to save the money of having to sand blast everything. I did some asking and priced out the difference from primed to un-primed and told Alex about the diiference. Here in Canada pre-primed steel enough to build a 40ft hull will cost somewhere in the area of approx. $ 12,000.00 and the price for the un-primed steel approx. $ 5,500.00 So with this information I could build two hulls for the same price as pre-primed steel. In my case this means a savings to me off $ 6,500.00 which would buy alot of sand!!!! People may argue about the mess or clean up the savings says it all for me! Hope this helps!| 1576|1564|2003-05-16 06:21:19|nadim|Re: Steel choice|hI Graeme, On Friday 16 May 2003 04:34, Graeme Mitchell wrote: > Bloody metrics I have to live with both as i finished school at the > change over point and missed out on the real meaning of metric life. Old > geeeezer. > The change to Metric was one of the biggest wastes of money of all times > in Australia ABSOLUTE B/S DAMN THE POLITICIANS an the people that made a > fortune out of it . I'd like to give my opinion on this subject, nothing argumentative, just for the fun of it. I understand your disapointment with what happend when you made the jump to metrics but IMHO the imperial rates first when it comes to stupid systems (no ofense intended). Having an inch or a mm as a unit is more or less the same, a common base to build on. Dividing an inch by powers of two is actually closer to human thinking than dividing it by ten so at the very begining the idea could be considered better. The problem is that the good ideas stopped there. Why 12 inches in a foot instead of 2 or4 or whatever power of 2? The proliferation of multiplication constants betwin one unit an another is a waste of time. The system is fuzzy even for people born in a country using it. Addition of metric is an order of magnitude easier than than imperial because it doesn't involve multiplication to a common denominator. Even worse is when adding, say, 10 figures , you end up with something like 1/2 an inch and 1/32 instead for 17/32 inch that is more difficult to grasp for most people. Multiplication? well before this day I didn't think about multiplication in the imperian system but that must be tough. what is the surface of 1 and 5/16 * 3 and 3/8? going from that to sq ft involves 1 multiplication and one division if you don't know the coeficient by heart. The diffrence between metric and imperial isn't in the units, it's in the use of them. We must have a common system to permit interaction on a global scale. If you'd permit me a little word of advice, when using the metric system, don't think about how much a centimeter is in inches it's just a centimeter. The problem you have existed in europe too when Napoleon decided that enough was enough and forced the move to metric systems. There was not only a proliferation of unit systems but those systems used the same names. For example the Swedes had an inch that is not the same size as an English inch. Few years ago a Swedish replica was made. When the boat was finished, it was compare to other boat and found to be longer than the original. The builders used the wrong inch! Trains going from a country to another must change boogy because the distance between the rails is not the same, I have a a bunch of adapters for the diffrent contacts I meet during my travels, .... The NASA lost 180 M$ on a probe they lauched a few years ago. The flight went right till it crash landed on the surface of the planet it was going to probe. The firm who wrote the landing software used the, since very long, obsolete pascal per sq/ft thrust unit, while the propulsion system used the metric one. Arghhh. Anyhow they should have spend that money building an hospital instead of sending a piece of steel in space. If it helps you knowing that other people have the same propbelem as you have (it does help me anyhow ;-), We (on the metric side of the world) also have lots of problems converting to the metric system and worse is visualizing the imperial units. In 3 generations the problem will desapear, it is unlucky these generations ar our generation. Nadim. | 1577|1564|2003-05-16 08:41:23|sae140|Re: Steel choice|Hi - thanks for the input so far - I'm about a day behind everyone else with the posts, so sorry if anything new has crossed the aether in the meanwhile .... Having visited and spoken with some giant chemical tank fabricators near my new build site yesterday (giants being the tanks, not the guys), they suggested blasting and priming just prior to pulling together, i.e. whilst the hull is still at the "2 half-shells and a transom" stage. I'll ponder on this some more and seek out a blaster for a quote ..... then go for a beer or 2 to recover ..(!). Steel size: > If I understand you right, the plan asks for 3/16 inch (+/- 4.8mm) > but you want to use 4mm instead for 5mm. Why do you want to do so? > Nadim. Well, I'd much prefer to use 3/16", quite simply because the plans call for this thickness, and who am I to argue ? If Brent was around, then I'd ask him directly .... But - in this crazy metric Europe (I'm still a Florins, Guineas, perches and bushels man, m'self), I'm stuck with a choice between 4 and 5mm ('cause 4.5mm is *extremely* rare). There are no other choices available - short of getting my backside over to Vancouver and building there (and I'm not kidding !). Nadim - I note you've rounded-up 4.76 to 4.8, so your preference for the heavier plate is clear . My thinking is that 3/16" (4.76mm) is acceptable for the 36 (which has >40% displacement than the 31), so *may* be a tad over-thick for the 31 (as I say, can't ask Brent 'cause he ain't around). 3/16" certainly *is* considered too thick by Brent for the 26. So - it appears that there exists something of a sliding-scale between displacement and preferred plate thickness, and I just wondered where the 31 lay on this hypothetical sliding scale. i.e. is 3/16" 'just right', or a tad too heavy ? and whether a lighter or heavier plate would bring us closer to optimum, given that I can't obtain 3/16" anyway. The advantages of a slightly heavier plate would of course be extra shell strength and an extra margin for corrosion. The advantages of a lighter plate are significantly less weight above the water-line, and a reduced sail area - which might make the difference between sporting one mast or two. I'm adopting junk rig, which normally requires a sail area of around 100-110 sq.ft. per ton. The 31 is spec'ed at 12000 lbs, which is ~5.4 tons. If I can get the weight down a little, then a single mast (with half the number of ropes !) is just possible. Also with junk rig there is the question of extra weight aloft, which usually calls for additional keel ballast to offset this. If I can trade plate weight - safely - for the extra ballast weight down low, then I'd be a happy bunny. I'm already pursuing a keel torpedo option with this in mind. So that's why I'm asking for views on plate thickness, as it's not something that I'm undertaking lightly. If I was building the 36 footer, then this wouldn't be an issue, as the slightly extra weight of metric steel can be absorbed very easily into this much heavier boat. Again, thanks for the input so far. Colin| 1578|1564|2003-05-16 09:12:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel choice|Colin, Plate stiffness is a function of both thickness and length. As the hull gets smaller the stiffness for any given plating increases as function of the square of the difference. A hull half as long would have 4 times stiffer sections. If 3/16" is adequate for a 36' hull, as proved by actually usage, the slightly thinner 4 mm plate would be adequate for a 31' hull. I'd use the 4mm, even though it will be slightly more difficult to weld, over building a heavy slug of a boat. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "sae140" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 8:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice > > Hi - thanks for the input so far - I'm about a day behind everyone > else with the posts, so sorry if anything new has crossed the aether > in the meanwhile .... > > Having visited and spoken with some giant chemical tank fabricators > near my new build site yesterday (giants being the tanks, not the > guys), they suggested blasting and priming just prior to pulling > together, i.e. whilst the hull is still at the "2 half-shells and a > transom" stage. I'll ponder on this some more and seek out a blaster > for a quote ..... then go for a beer or 2 to recover ..(!). > > Steel size: > > > If I understand you right, the plan asks for 3/16 inch (+/- 4.8mm) > > but you want to use 4mm instead for 5mm. Why do you want to do so? > > Nadim. > > Well, I'd much prefer to use 3/16", quite simply because the plans > call for this thickness, and who am I to argue ? If Brent was > around, then I'd ask him directly .... > > But - in this crazy metric Europe (I'm still a Florins, Guineas, > perches and bushels man, m'self), I'm stuck with a choice between 4 > and 5mm ('cause 4.5mm is *extremely* rare). There are no other > choices available - short of getting my backside over to Vancouver > and building there (and I'm not kidding !). > > Nadim - I note you've rounded-up 4.76 to 4.8, so your preference for > the heavier plate is clear . > > My thinking is that 3/16" (4.76mm) is acceptable for the 36 (which > has >40% displacement than the 31), so *may* be a tad over-thick for > the 31 (as I say, can't ask Brent 'cause he ain't around). 3/16" > certainly *is* considered too thick by Brent for the 26. > > So - it appears that there exists something of a sliding-scale > between displacement and preferred plate thickness, and I just > wondered where the 31 lay on this hypothetical sliding scale. i.e. > is 3/16" 'just right', or a tad too heavy ? and whether a lighter or > heavier plate would bring us closer to optimum, given that I can't > obtain 3/16" anyway. > > The advantages of a slightly heavier plate would of course be extra > shell strength and an extra margin for corrosion. > The advantages of a lighter plate are significantly less weight above > the water-line, and a reduced sail area - which might make the > difference between sporting one mast or two. > > I'm adopting junk rig, which normally requires a sail area of around > 100-110 sq.ft. per ton. The 31 is spec'ed at 12000 lbs, which is > ~5.4 tons. If I can get the weight down a little, then a single mast > (with half the number of ropes !) is just possible. > > Also with junk rig there is the question of extra weight aloft, which > usually calls for additional keel ballast to offset this. If I can > trade plate weight - safely - for the extra ballast weight down low, > then I'd be a happy bunny. I'm already pursuing a keel torpedo > option with this in mind. > > So that's why I'm asking for views on plate thickness, as it's not > something that I'm undertaking lightly. If I was building the 36 > footer, then this wouldn't be an issue, as the slightly extra weight > of metric steel can be absorbed very easily into this much heavier > boat. > > Again, thanks for the input so far. > > Colin > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1579|1564|2003-05-16 09:16:21|nadim|Re: Steel choice|Hi, On Friday 16 May 2003 14:40, sae140 wrote: > ... > they suggested blasting and priming just prior to pulling > together, i.e. whilst the hull is still at the "2 half-shells and a > transom" stage Sounds like a good idea but what about behing the stringers? > Steel size: > Well, I'd much prefer to use 3/16", quite simply because the plans > call for this thickness, and who am I to argue ? You are you, that's a good start. > Nadim - I note you've rounded-up 4.76 to 4.8, so your preference for > the heavier plate is clear . That was a cheap one ;-). For a heavy displacement, I'd rather have something thicker but for the argumentation sake, I think 4mm is already quite thick and at 8 Kg per m2 that could mean a lot of weight. Could you please tell me/us what the surface we are talking about? I'd go for the 4mm if the percentage of steel for the volume of the boat is the same with a 31'/ 4mm as for a 36/4.76mm. I know that are no free lunches but, there is a chemical product that is used to transform rust into some other compound, could that be used as a primer? Cheers, Nadim. | 1580|1564|2003-05-16 10:24:07|Gregory Ham|Re: Steel choice|Hello Nadim I couldn't get your syntax to work on my Unix box. If I type: $units then it prompts me for the units I have and the units I want. That works fine except that it continually repeats the unit question prompts and no key I enter will get the program to end. Do you know how to get the program to quit? I'm not very good with Unix so it may just be a lack of knowledge on my part. Regards Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "nadim" To: Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice > Hi, > On Thursday 15 May 2003 20:54, John Jones wrote: > > 4 mm that's 1/4" isn't it? 1/16th thickerer than the plans call for. > > (I'm not so good with metric) > > for those of you using a unix computer the 'units' program is of great > help. ex : > $ units '(1/4) inch' 'mm' > * 6.35 > / 0.15748031 > $ units '(3/16) inch' 'mm' > * 4.7625 > / 0.20997375 > > If I understand you right, the plan asks for 3/16 inch (+/- 4.8mm) but you > want to use 4mm instead for 5mm. Why do you want to do so? > > Nadim. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1581|1564|2003-05-16 10:47:18|pvanderwaart|Re: Steel choice|Presumeably, when Mr. Swain made the construction plan, he calculated the thickness needed based on the spacing of the frames and any longitudinals. Then he chose the available thickness that was the best match to the calculated requirement. It seems most natural that he rounded up, but he might have rounded down if it was close. Which is a long way of saying that the specified plate might be heavier than actually required or pretty close to the minimum required. It is not necessarily the exact perfect thickness. I think it would be worth while getting the designer's opinion. As suggested in an earlier post, if the plate is slightly too thin, the result would probably not be an outright failure, but a cosmetic failure of the 'starved dog' type where the plate has bent out of shape between the frames. If you have an engineering background, you could work it out yourself using the information from "Designing for Power and Sail" by Arthur Edmunds, for example. (However, be warned that book has serious problems with editing and layout.) Peter| 1582|1564|2003-05-16 10:48:40|Red Green|Re: Steel choice|Colin, Geronimoooooo..... build the 36' with 5mm. Think of the extra leg room you'll enjoy. CHEERS, Danny O' >From: "sae140" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Steel choice >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:22:35 -0000 > >Have found an even better build site - with fork-lift and crane - and >am now firming up plans. > >There are just a couple of final points I'd seek advice on: > >Firstly the choice of steel thickness. Over here in the UK we can no >longer get steel in imperial thicknesses, only in 3, 4, 5, 6 mm etc. >1/8" is equal to 3mm, but the 3/16" recommended for Brent's hulls is >4.76 mm. Ted Stone (the only other known builder in the UK) has >chosen 5mm for his 36 ft hull, which makes sense, and I'd do the same >if building the 36. > >However, for the 31ft hull, would anyone consider using 4mm ? I >must say I'm tempted, even if it means extra stringers. With 6mm for >the keels and skeg, and 3mm topsides, as standard. I'd appreciate >any views. > >Secondly, I'm finding it almost impossible to source pre-primed steel >in decent sized sheets over here. Would anyone consider blasting and >priming the flat plate *before* starting work, or only after the hull >has been completed ? I'm dreading the process of blasting the >inside, so priming before starting work has it's attractions. > >Thanks in advance. "D-day" fast approaches ...... > > >Colin > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1583|1564|2003-05-16 11:14:37|nadim|Re: Steel choice|Hi Gregory, On Friday 16 May 2003 16:29, Gregory Ham wrote: > I couldn't get your syntax to work on my Unix box. If I type: > $units ... $ is the prompt, it should be $prompt_whatever> units. I guess I wrote a typo. $units would echo the evironnement variable units, which is no defined. examples: [nadim@khemir nadim]$ units 1948 units, 71 prefixes, 28 functions You have: (3/16) inch You want: mm * 4.7625 / 0.20997375 You have: ... or density of steel: [nadim@khemir nadim]$ units '8000 kg per m3' 'pound per ft3' * 499.42368 / 0.0020023079 or for the speed of light in inches per hour [nadim@khemir nadim]$ units 'c' 'in per hour' * 4.249027e+13 / 2.35348e-14 at you prompt type: info units for the documentation. Cheers, Nadim | 1584|1584|2003-05-16 13:37:41|sae140|Blasting|Glen wrote: > As you I pondered the idea of buying pre-primed plate to save > the money of having to sand blast everything. Not quite - my principle concern was directed at the difficulty (and mess) of blasting - especially inside the hull. Visions of shovelling tons of used grit whilst wearing breathing apparatus in zero visibility ... then vacuuming out the remainder. Sounds like hell. Also - how do you blast the bottom effectively when the used grit itself keeps falling to the bottom ? Saving money was more of a secondary issue - honest !! A couple on the Wylo site recently posted re: their blasting experience - here are the key details: Having built outside with bare steel, shot-blasting took place after completion of the (35ft) hull. The inside took 2 men about a day and a half and used 2.5 tons of grit. The outside took 6 hours including the steel deck, and used 4 tons of grit. Grit was not re-used as this was thought to blast rust back into the clean surface. The grit cost £100 per ton and the hire of a compressor cost £250 per week for a 270l/min compressor which is about the smallest recommended. So that's 6.5 tons of grit = £650 + (say) £150 for the equipment - that's £800 (c.$1600 CAN), plus the paint, a night in the pub for the folk involved, plus a day off to recover from a bl**dy awful ordeal. Glen - I think your figures speak for themselves (thanks) Paul F. - I agree - $800 (presumably US ?) which is around £500 over here - sounds like a good deal when you consider the alternative ..... Colin| 1585|1407|2003-05-16 13:37:54|robertgm36|steel|The other major factor to keep in mind in deciding to use pre-primed steel or not is how long it will take you to get your hull to the paint stage . We all know it will take longer than we think . I have friends with boats at various stages of build and the preprimed steel after a few years outside even though covered will need a total sandblasting if you want to be sure your epoxy will stick and you get maximum life out of it.I would never cut corners at this stage and not etch every surface. Tank builders etc do not take years to finish a project so the preprimed works for them. Likewise if you are certain you will be at the paint stage in a few months the extra expense for preprimed may be worth it. Any pro sandblaster could give you a quote for your size of boat before you buy steel and this might help the decision. Good luck. -Robert| 1586|1584|2003-05-16 14:14:53|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Blasting|Probably a big reason pre-primed steel has been favoured on this coast (BC) is because boats were being built in residential areas. There is a boat in Courtenay (near us) that is right beside the owner's house in his yard. Sandblasting (which is extremely loud and would bring in the by-law officer quick as a stick) would push the neighbours beyond the limits of their already grudging acceptance! For the record, his boat has been outside for several years now, and only covered on top; hull looks fine, as far as I can tell (I'm nearly certain it's only got primer on it, but I'd better go check on this). Other builders have worked outside and have not had as much luck. The reason could be the quality of pre-prime paint, or the environment, or both combine. I think it depends where you are -- uptown away from the salt air would have a different effect than building near the ocean breezes. Our boat will have pre-primed steel, as we will be right between two other houses. I may make a full cover like Gord's 40, in which case the pre-prime paint will have maximum protection. Blasting sounds like the most professional way to go, certainly, and not overly costly. Brent, on the other hand, had to launch his boat prematurely due to loss of tenure in his rented yard space. The pre-prime stood up to a spell in the salt chuck, and after that he painted it, so he was glad to have that option, I'm sure! Alex| 1587|1564|2003-05-16 20:55:28|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel choice|Nadim hah One other thing i forgot to point out with the using of metrics the other day. distances got further away . I lived in Northern Victoria which was 350 miles from Melbourne (capital city ), when they changed to kilometers it was 550 km so it was further away ???. Bugger<<<<<<<<<<<< them metrics. It is much the same as daylight saving having that 1 hour extra of day light damn the curtain fade quicker . Also this is dinkim<<<<<<< ( AUSSIE slang for not B/S ) the bloody government banned imperial tape measures from being sold at hardware stores (or duel tapes having both units of measure ) imagine what it did to some of the older folks strewth they where confused . That law was repealed after about a year and you can still buy duel unit tape measures to this day. Now the day light saving and distanced travelled are some of the things that have been said in Jest . But it is the trouble when buying plans and other items from different countries that do not have the same units of measure as that is used LOCALLY as I have run in to this PROBLEM BEFORE. Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 16, 2003 23:17:09 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel choice Hi Gregory, On Friday 16 May 2003 16:29, Gregory Ham wrote: > I couldn't get your syntax to work on my Unix box. If I type: > $units ... $ is the prompt, it should be $prompt_whatever> units. I guess I wrote a typo. $units would echo the evironnement variable units, which is no defined. examples: [nadim@khemir nadim]$ units 1948 units, 71 prefixes, 28 functions You have: (3/16) inch You want: mm * 4.7625 / 0.20997375 You have: .... or density of steel: [nadim@khemir nadim]$ units '8000 kg per m3' 'pound per ft3' * 499.42368 / 0.0020023079 or for the speed of light in inches per hour [nadim@khemir nadim]$ units 'c' 'in per hour' * 4.249027e+13 / 2.35348e-14 at you prompt type: info units for the documentation. Cheers, Nadim Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1588|1588|2003-05-17 14:48:46|robertgm36|blasting|Alex is definitely right re the quality of preprimed steel. It certainly varies. Of course you should sandblast or etch in some way all your welds anyway.Epoxy loves to bite onto a rough etched surface and will come off a smooth surface much sooner.I have heard that some steel suppliers who do their own wheel abrading will put your primer on the steel you order. Might be another way to ensure some quality control if you`re spending that extra money. Like so many areas of this do it yourself business what makes sense for one person may not for another. - Robert| 1589|1584|2003-05-19 00:55:38|John Jones|Re: Blasting|So.... Try waterblasting ... and install a drain hole And "viola" all the feces is washed away. Sooner or later whoosh!!!| 1590|1584|2003-05-19 01:25:57|Stephen Wandling|Re: Blasting|I don't know one thing about waterblasting, but I have been instructed that the epoxy coating must be applied within 4 hours of attaining bright metal. It must also be applied to dry metal. Would this be compatible with waterblasting? John Jones wrote: > > So.... > Try waterblasting ... and install a drain hole And "viola" all the > feces is washed away. Sooner or later whoosh!!! > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Click Here!] > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -- Sophocles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1592|1564|2003-05-19 04:47:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Steel choice|Colin, I asked Brent about steel thicknesses before I started building and this is what he wrote: "4mm plate is great for the 31 footer, I wish we could get it here. It's structurally adequate for a 36 . For long range offshore cruising, I'd prefer 5mm." Regards, Ted| 1593|1564|2003-05-19 07:30:05|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel choice|Ok What about the 40fter is that 4 mm or 5 mm ???? Graeme Nadim what is .016 converted to metric on your computer conversion please Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:47:09 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice Colin, I asked Brent about steel thicknesses before I started building and this is what he wrote: "4mm plate is great for the 31 footer, I wish we could get it here. It's structurally adequate for a 36 . For long range offshore cruising, I'd prefer 5mm." Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1594|1564|2003-05-19 08:36:24|edward_stoneuk|Re: Steel choice|Graeme, I don't know what is best steel thickness for the 40'. Better wait until Brent returns. I do know that the boats raced at the Henley-on- Todd Regatta in Australia are made from old beer cans which may well be 0.016" or 0.4mm thick so that is a thought if you are looking for a lightweight boat. That said having to drink all that beer in order to obtain sufficient cans might be a bit of a chore. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme Mitchell" wrote: > Ok What about the 40fter is that 4 mm or 5 mm ???? > > Graeme > > Nadim what is .016 converted to metric on your computer conversion please > > Graeme > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:47:09 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice > > Colin, > > I asked Brent about steel thicknesses before I started building and > this is what he wrote: > > "4mm plate is great for the 31 footer, I wish we could get it here. > It's structurally adequate for a 36 . For long range offshore > cruising, I'd prefer 5mm." > > Regards, > > Ted | 1595|1564|2003-05-19 10:53:58|Stephen Wandling|Re: Steel choice|0.016 inches equals 0.4064 millimeters Graeme Mitchell wrote: > Ok What about the 40fter is that 4 mm or 5 mm ???? > > Graeme > > Nadim what is .016 converted to metric on your computer conversion > please > > Graeme > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:47:09 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice > > Colin, > > I asked Brent about steel thicknesses before I started building and > this is what he wrote: > > "4mm plate is great for the 31 footer, I wish we could get it here. > It's structurally adequate for a 36 . For long range offshore > cruising, I'd prefer 5mm." > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -- Sophocles| 1596|1588|2003-05-19 11:09:48|...|blasting|I am not sure about wet blasting,how do you dry the surfaces and more important all the crevices behind parts that do not have continues welds, before applying the epoxy. Ideally all parts that do not have continues welds should have the mating surfaces painted before positioning and welding,one of the advantages of preprimed steel. The reason for applying the epoxy within 4hours is to minimise the oxidisation of the blasted surfaces,the steel will start to oxidise (start to rust) the moment you finish dry blasting. You might get away with wet blasting in a dry warm place but even then as the steel dries rust will form. Try degreasing and washing a piece of plate that has had the mill scale removed or bright steel, it will rust as it dries,even if it is in a warm place. Geoff Pearce| 1597|1588|2003-05-19 11:09:50|...|blasting|I am not sure about wet blasting,how do you dry the surfaces and more important all the crevices behind parts that do not have continues welds, before applying the epoxy. Ideally all parts that do not have continues welds should have the mating surfaces painted before positioning and welding,one of the advantages of preprimed steel. The reason for applying the epoxy within 4hours is to minimise the oxidisation of the blasted surfaces,the steel will start to oxidise (start to rust) the moment you finish dry blasting. You might get away with wet blasting in a dry warm place but even then as the steel dries rust will form. Try degreasing and washing a piece of plate that has had the mill scale removed or bright steel, it will rust as it dries,even if it is in a warm place. Geoff Pearce| 1598|1564|2003-05-19 13:17:08|nadim|Re: Steel choice|thanks Stephen, Graeme, it's good if you give a unit when you wnat a coversion. I was wondering 0.016 what? I am a bit curious about the '0.016 '. What does it represent? On Monday 19 May 2003 16:54, Stephen Wandling wrote: > 0.016 inches equals 0.4064 millimeters > > > Nadim what is .016 converted to metric on your computer conversion > > please > > > > Graeme | 1599|1599|2003-05-19 13:50:40|...|Email blasting |Sorry about that the first send did not appear to work. Geoff| 1600|1584|2003-05-19 15:13:39|Marco Ahrens|Blasting|Hi folks, I see that hydro blasting is being discussed on the site. I have no experience of hydro (water) blasting on yachts but we blasted the main deck on a 800' North sea shuttle tankers I held command on a couple of years ago and I stayed onboard for three years after completion of the job. It seemed to hold up ok, but grit blasting is better in my opinion as it provides a far better surface. Also when hydro blasting an inhibitor should be added to the blast water in order to prevent flash rust prior to coating. I also have observed a combination of grit/hydro blasting with injection of a secret chemical which was later found to be baking soda, this was a complete waste of time as the paint peeled of with in a couple of months The reason for hydro blasting is becoming more common in the commercial marine industry is that is healthier, environment friendly and little cleaning before painting. Not that it is better. Also remember that the main corrosion problem on a steel yacht is from inside, this might be worth keeping when insulating your boat and fitting the interior. On my own 18 year old 45' Roberts ketch the insulation is normal Rockwool which is removable for internal maintenance. On a different subject has anyone tried hot dip galvanizing pre-cut steel before welding the boat together, presume you would have to grind the areas which are to be welded and recoat the welds on completion with organic zinc paint. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Best regards Marco on sunny Cyprus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1601|1564|2003-05-19 19:12:15|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel choice|Ted lol They have a beer can regatta in Darwin in June or July ,they seem to have plenty of cans for that event which unlike Henley on Todd is on water. The .016 was for an other project that I was looking at Thanks ted Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, May 19, 2003 20:36:28 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice Graeme, I don't know what is best steel thickness for the 40'. Better wait until Brent returns. I do know that the boats raced at the Henley-on- Todd Regatta in Australia are made from old beer cans which may well be 0.016" or 0.4mm thick so that is a thought if you are looking for a lightweight boat. That said having to drink all that beer in order to obtain sufficient cans might be a bit of a chore. Regards, Ted --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme Mitchell" wrote: > Ok What about the 40fter is that 4 mm or 5 mm ???? > > Graeme > > Nadim what is .016 converted to metric on your computer conversion please > > Graeme > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:47:09 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice > > Colin, > > I asked Brent about steel thicknesses before I started building and > this is what he wrote: > > "4mm plate is great for the 31 footer, I wish we could get it here. > It's structurally adequate for a 36 . For long range offshore > cruising, I'd prefer 5mm." > > Regards, > > Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1602|1564|2003-05-19 19:32:17|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Steel choice|Nadim It is thou,s of an inch hence the point .016 damn metrics once a gain lol Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 01:17:14 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel choice thanks Stephen, Graeme, it's good if you give a unit when you wnat a coversion. I was wondering 0.016 what? I am a bit curious about the '0.016 '. What does it represent? On Monday 19 May 2003 16:54, Stephen Wandling wrote: > 0.016 inches equals 0.4064 millimeters > > > Nadim what is .016 converted to metric on your computer conversion > > please > > > > Graeme Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1603|1603|2003-05-19 20:44:39|Bert|Re: Thickness of steel|From: Stephen Wandling Subject: Re: Steel choice 4 mm is about 0.1574803 inches, which is bit more than 1/8". 5 mm is about 0.1968504 inches, which is a bit more than 3/16". 1/4" is about 6.35 mm. My question: isn't "10 guage steel" also a bit more than 1/8"....Tom Colvin specifies 10 gauge for his 42 foot Gazelle.... Bert Eggers...saginaw, mi| 1604|1604|2003-05-19 23:19:48|Glen|steel choice|It would seem that everyone has their own idea of what they are doing and how to accomplish it. I think that is great and I love hearing about all of the ideas that everyone has. I do know for our area of the world being British Columbia that if you live close to the water that rust is a way of life. I worked in a shop for several years and after cutting most metals or getting them prepped for paint if you leave them without some form coating that they will begine to rust overnight. Having said this most people would say then you should be buying pre-primed steel and priming the areas were you have welded to prevent the rust from starting. This is almost impossible as rust forms so fast that there is no chance of catching it all. I also have seen someone who built their 49 foot dream out of pre-primed steel and did not get to finish the hull in the time he wanted and never got to paint it, it will now take several days to blast the entire hull inside and out in order to be ready. I think that everyone needs to set a realistic goal for a time of completion of the hull including paint. In with this goal needs to be a factor of buying pre-primed steel or not and the cost factors involved with their choice taking into account location of hull being built and access to said blasting / painting equipment needed. One of the ultimate factors will be money, as I remember most of us are building our own boats as to save on all the money we think the buliders dont need from us!! I like hearing about all the idea so thanks to all and keep them coming! Glen| 1607|1603|2003-05-20 06:53:51|edward_stoneuk|Re: Thickness of steel|Bert, Yes, 10 gauge is slightly thicker than 1/8". 10 gauge sheet is 3.4mm and 1/8" sheet is 3.2mm thick. Hardly noticable in hot rolled sheet. Do you know if Tom Colvin specified cold reduced sheet? Regards, Ted > 4 mm is about 0.1574803 inches, which is bit more than 1/8". > > 5 mm is about 0.1968504 inches, which is a bit more than 3/16". > > 1/4" is about 6.35 mm. > > My question: isn't "10 guage steel" also a bit more than 1/8"....Tom Colvin specifies 10 gauge for his 42 foot Gazelle.... > > Bert Eggers...saginaw, mi | 1608|1604|2003-05-20 07:45:22|Graeme Mitchell|Re: steel choice|A idea that I seen in a welding shop was ZINC sticks that is wiped on a fresh weld while it is still hot for rust proofing on welded areas . They are a commercial item has any one else seen them as I will chase them up if any one else is interested as what there sales pitch is. -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 11:19:52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] steel choice It would seem that everyone has their own idea of what they are doing and how to accomplish it. I think that is great and I love hearing about all of the ideas that everyone has. I do know for our area of the world being British Columbia that if you live close to the water that rust is a way of life. I worked in a shop for several years and after cutting most metals or getting them prepped for paint if you leave them without some form coating that they will begine to rust overnight. Having said this most people would say then you should be buying pre-primed steel and priming the areas were you have welded to prevent the rust from starting. This is almost impossible as rust forms so fast that there is no chance of catching it all. I also have seen someone who built their 49 foot dream out of pre-primed steel and did not get to finish the hull in the time he wanted and never got to paint it, it will now take several days to blast the entire hull inside and out in order to be ready. I think that everyone needs to set a realistic goal for a time of completion of the hull including paint. In with this goal needs to be a factor of buying pre-primed steel or not and the cost factors involved with their choice taking into account location of hull being built and access to said blasting / painting equipment needed. One of the ultimate factors will be money, as I remember most of us are building our own boats as to save on all the money we think the buliders dont need from us!! I like hearing about all the idea so thanks to all and keep them coming! Glen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1609|1609|2003-05-20 13:38:53|Alex and Kim Christie|spam again: "easiest way to..."|Sorry folks, It looks like we are being deluged with spam again from the fake eboattrade people (someone has harnessed eboat trade's legit website with a kind of redirect process), so I will have to put the same measures in place I used before --- all new members are automatically moderated as soon as they join. I suspect the people who keep sending the "easiest way to buy or sell your boat" messages must make money every time you click on their link, so don't reward them by falling for it! Not much harm in it, but it has nothing to do with the purpose of the group so I am deleting. If any new members are still on moderation and I have missed changing their membership to non-moderation, please e-mail me and I'll change it. Alex| 1610|1610|2003-05-20 15:58:29|prairiemaidca|Steel prep;|Hi All; Has anyone ever used a small sand blaster and worked an area inside the hull then painted it, then when the paint is dry moved on to do another piece?? I was thinking this was what I might try on Prairie Maid's interior. It should allow me to do what I can when I can. As for the outside I'm thinking a pro blast job followed by undercoat sprayed on as soon as the dust settles. Since I'm not in any real hurry this might be the way to go. Any thoughts. I noticed someone asking about the product por-15. I'm curious as well. Anyone with experience?? Their lit.looks good but so do most products on paper. Martin Forster(Prairie Maid)| 1611|1604|2003-05-20 17:07:28|nadim|Re: steel choice|Hi all, On Tuesday 20 May 2003 05:19, Glen wrote: > It would seem that everyone has their own idea of what they are doing > and how to accomplish it. I think that is great and I love hearing .... The story was about rust. Yes, a bit of metal rusts as soon as you stop blasting it. if water is used, it starts even earlier, so inhibiting agents might be a good idea. While reading the mail I started wondering why we make such a big fuss. The boats we are talking about are between 36-40 ft. Those are small boats. So it 's not all that much to blast and paint (I am trying to be positive here). If the blasting painting is done while we have half shells then I'd recommend build a half shell, blast, paint then do next one. If I understand it right, pre primed steel costs double the price of normal steel. what figures are we talking about here? say for a 36ft. Is the diffrence in money worth the 3 days you are going to balst and paint or not? It's a pity we live so far from each other, because nothing is like help from someone that is going to do the same thing as you and that you are going to help back. it seems that lots live in BC. Maybe some of you could help each other build the boats. Nadim. PS. I had a good laugh about the 0.016 inch. You are not near the end of your 'imperial' troubles. Would be as good to switch to metrics right now. | 1612|1612|2003-05-20 20:37:19|Glen|Steel prep|Thanks to Nadim and Martin I think that both you gentlemen have the right idea! Work within a small area and prime as you go. Sould you have the right area ( large ) enough to prime all at once, go for it. Most of us are going to take several months +- to complete our projects and some rust has to be anticipated even if you have the ability to cover your project. As for steel costs I priced out the difference between pre- primed steel and not, total pre-primed steel costs is approx. 12,000.00 cnd dollars and the un-primed steel is approx. 6,500.00 cnd dollars. This enough steel to build hull, keels, skeg, cabin sides and top, stringers and bulkward for a 40 foot version. I do not have the prices for the 36, sorry. If there were more people at the ready to purchase stage and we all called the same company ( here in B.C. ) we might even get a better deal!! I was also informed that if you have a salvage yard or second hand steel dealer you might want to give him a try. I know of a company about 6 hours away from me that sells salvaged steel 4 X 8 sheets for approx. $ 100.00 cnd but you have to be able to pick it up as they will not deliver. This is also the largest size they have and yes it is not primed. So does the difference in cost justify buying one over the other, I'll let you decide!! :) Glen| 1613|1612|2003-05-21 04:43:55|Jim Phillips|Re: Steel prep|G'day There's been some very interesting comments about water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and un-primed steel. So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be worth the additional cost. Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once the boat is finished, you only have to worry about stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think I prefer aluminium. Any comments? Take care, Jim. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile.| 1614|1612|2003-05-21 11:19:23|Paul Faulkner|Re: Steel prep|Blasting and priming the inside of a hull a small area at a time? Unless you have a very large stand up compressor with plenty of CFM, you will be spending a VERY LONG time blasting. I have a blaster with a 50 lb pot and a compressor that puts out about 6 cfm at 90 psi. The compressor can't keep up. I have found this useful for blasting welds or VERY SMALL areas, but would not consider using it to blast the entire interior of anything bigger than a small rowboat. Just my two cents. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Phillips To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel prep G'day There's been some very interesting comments about water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and un-primed steel. So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be worth the additional cost. Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once the boat is finished, you only have to worry about stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think I prefer aluminium. Any comments? Take care, Jim. http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1615|1615|2003-05-21 13:41:43|Aaron Edelman|salvaged steel|Hi folks, Just a thought, wouldn't you compromise a steel hull by using salvaged 4 x 8 sheets of steel. You will have no assurance that they are of the same metallic composition. I've always heard, to make sure to order ALL the steel you need for your project AT ONE TIME, and to make sure it comes from the same production run, to avoid galvanic corrosion between metals of different levels of nobility. Isn't that the reason for installing zincs? It would be a heck of a job to install a zinc on each plate of steel to insure the integrity of your hull. just a thought.... (no, I am not building at present). Your comments? _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1616|1612|2003-05-21 19:05:21|richytill|Re: Steel prep|On aluminium: for the sake of discussion, here are a few thoughts. For a coastal cruiser where aluminium can be repaired, no problem-- what if you are offshore where there is no adequate shelter and equipment to make repairs? I worked on deep sea repair and we can fix steel anywhere; with simple tools, in brutal conditions. I teach welding--it is possible for the amatuer to master, but more demanding in terms of time, cost and attention to detail. I find steel to be an honest material--it lets you know when it rusts or fatigues. Aluminium can hide its defects quite well--until it fails. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > G'day > > There's been some very interesting comments about > water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and > un-primed steel. > > So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: > > Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the > cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive > than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not > worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be > worth the additional cost. > > Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once > the boat is finished, you only have to worry about > stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the > bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think > I prefer aluminium. > > Any comments? > > Take care, > > Jim. > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone mobile. | 1617|1612|2003-05-21 19:14:11|De Clarke|Re: Steel prep |the steel vs aluminium debate is of great interest to me... can we hear more on this from others with experience of both? I'd like to hear the full range of pro and con... for a start, I don't know how to assess the condition of an aluminium hull, what to look for, etc. with steel you look for rust and then poke the rusty spots to see how deep they are :-) but what do you do to check the condition of an Al hull? the nice thing about Al hulls I have seen is they don't look rusty :-) and the owner/skippers don't seem to spend a lot of time on rust patrol. that might be worth some extra cost... de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | : :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins : :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 1618|1612|2003-05-21 19:52:31|John Jones|Re: Steel prep|Try to find a " Dillon Mk-4" torch system. Uses 10 lbs/psi oxy and 10 lbs acetelene and with the proper flux aluminium can be welded in not so ideal conditions and is an interesting torch for use on light steel. Works real good. The factory guy came to our meeting and demonstrated it wearing a suit. ---------- >From: "richytill" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep >Date: Wed, May 21, 2003, 19:05 > > On aluminium: for the sake of discussion, here are a few thoughts. > For a coastal cruiser where aluminium can be repaired, no problem-- > what if you are offshore where there is no adequate shelter and > equipment to make repairs? I worked on deep sea repair and we can > fix steel anywhere; with simple tools, in brutal conditions. I teach > welding--it is possible for the amatuer to master, but more demanding > in terms of time, cost and attention to detail. I find steel to be > an honest material--it lets you know when it rusts or fatigues. > Aluminium can hide its defects quite well--until it fails. rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: >> G'day >> >> There's been some very interesting comments about >> water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and >> un-primed steel. >> >> So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: >> >> Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the >> cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive >> than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not >> worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be >> worth the additional cost. >> >> Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once >> the boat is finished, you only have to worry about >> stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the >> bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think >> I prefer aluminium. >> >> Any comments? >> >> Take care, >> >> Jim. >> >> >> http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile >> - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone > mobile. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1619|1612|2003-05-21 20:16:32|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel prep|John, I'm laughing, sorry but that is really funny! I have seen such demonstrations before, and they are impressive, until you have this huge heatsink called a hull attached to the area you are trying to weld. I've done lots of Tig (Tungsten arc, a lot like gas welding) welding on aluminum light poles, molds etc. With a 250 amp welding machine turned all the way up I had to preheat everything to about 400 degrees over a plumbers melting pot furnace to have any chance of welding it. Aluminum takes lots of very concentrated heat to weld on a large structure like a boat. Mig (wire feed)welders work better because they are able to concentrate all the heat in a very small zone. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > Try to find a " Dillon Mk-4" torch system. Uses 10 lbs/psi oxy and 10 lbs > acetelene and with the proper flux aluminium can be welded in not so ideal > conditions and is an interesting torch for use on light steel. Works real > good. The factory guy came to our meeting and demonstrated it wearing a > suit. > > ---------- > >From: "richytill" > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > >Date: Wed, May 21, 2003, 19:05 > > > > > On aluminium: for the sake of discussion, here are a few thoughts. > > For a coastal cruiser where aluminium can be repaired, no problem-- > > what if you are offshore where there is no adequate shelter and > > equipment to make repairs? I worked on deep sea repair and we can > > fix steel anywhere; with simple tools, in brutal conditions. I teach > > welding--it is possible for the amatuer to master, but more demanding > > in terms of time, cost and attention to detail. I find steel to be > > an honest material--it lets you know when it rusts or fatigues. > > Aluminium can hide its defects quite well--until it fails. rt > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > >> G'day > >> > >> There's been some very interesting comments about > >> water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and > >> un-primed steel. > >> > >> So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: > >> > >> Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the > >> cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive > >> than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not > >> worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be > >> worth the additional cost. > >> > >> Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once > >> the boat is finished, you only have to worry about > >> stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the > >> bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think > >> I prefer aluminium. > >> > >> Any comments? > >> > >> Take care, > >> > >> Jim. > >> > >> > >> http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > >> - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone > > mobile. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1620|1612|2003-05-21 21:04:01|John Jones|Re: Steel prep|Sooooo..... You have'nt tried the Dillon torch eh? So many sceptics so little thyme, when you try this torch, well it's just not like other torches..... so that's why we invited them to the Toronto Dry-dock in late fall. There was an awfull wind and a little rain.... what a feces day! butt, the guy welded aluminium in these shit conditions and the weld was stronger than the metal it was attached to. Funny ??? No I was sceptical too, but it's worth checking out. And not just dismissing it because you don't think it's possible. ---------- >From: "Gary H. Lucas" >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep >Date: Wed, May 21, 2003, 20:16 > > John, > I'm laughing, sorry but that is really funny! I have seen such > demonstrations before, and they are impressive, until you have this huge > heatsink called a hull attached to the area you are trying to weld. I've > done lots of Tig (Tungsten arc, a lot like gas welding) welding on aluminum > light poles, molds etc. With a 250 amp welding machine turned all the way > up I had to preheat everything to about 400 degrees over a plumbers melting > pot furnace to have any chance of welding it. Aluminum takes lots of very > concentrated heat to weld on a large structure like a boat. Mig (wire > feed)welders work better because they are able to concentrate all the heat > in a very small zone. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Jones" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > > >> Try to find a " Dillon Mk-4" torch system. Uses 10 lbs/psi oxy and 10 lbs >> acetelene and with the proper flux aluminium can be welded in not so ideal >> conditions and is an interesting torch for use on light steel. Works real >> good. The factory guy came to our meeting and demonstrated it wearing a >> suit. >> >> ---------- >> >From: "richytill" >> >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep >> >Date: Wed, May 21, 2003, 19:05 >> > >> >> > On aluminium: for the sake of discussion, here are a few thoughts. >> > For a coastal cruiser where aluminium can be repaired, no problem-- >> > what if you are offshore where there is no adequate shelter and >> > equipment to make repairs? I worked on deep sea repair and we can >> > fix steel anywhere; with simple tools, in brutal conditions. I teach >> > welding--it is possible for the amatuer to master, but more demanding >> > in terms of time, cost and attention to detail. I find steel to be >> > an honest material--it lets you know when it rusts or fatigues. >> > Aluminium can hide its defects quite well--until it fails. rt >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: >> >> G'day >> >> >> >> There's been some very interesting comments about >> >> water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and >> >> un-primed steel. >> >> >> >> So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: >> >> >> >> Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the >> >> cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive >> >> than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not >> >> worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be >> >> worth the additional cost. >> >> >> >> Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once >> >> the boat is finished, you only have to worry about >> >> stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the >> >> bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think >> >> I prefer aluminium. >> >> >> >> Any comments? >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Jim. >> >> >> >> >> >> http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile >> >> - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone >> > mobile. >> > >> > >> > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > >> > >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1621|1612|2003-05-21 21:38:58|Don Taylor|Re: Steel prep|Jim: What are you going to use for anti-fouling now that TBT is bannned? Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Why not build in aluminium? | 1622|1603|2003-05-21 21:39:01|Don Taylor|Re: Thickness of steel|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > sheet. Do you know if Tom Colvin specified cold reduced sheet? No, he does not. I tried it once and had all sorts of warping show up once I started welding. I think that the cold rolling encapsulates all sorts of stresses into the steel that get released when it is heated up by welding. I was very disappointed bacause I ahd to go back to grinding off millscale. Don.| 1623|1612|2003-05-22 03:38:23|nadim|Hull repares, Steel vs Aluminium|Hi guys, On Thursday 22 May 2003 02:16, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > .... > John, >> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Jones" > > ... etc .. The discussion was about aluminium (which I'll answer later) and then it became about reparation. Let's not drive the reparation thread (which is indeed a very intresting on) like other mailing list. This is origamiboats, smart guys without money. A reparation is just a way to keep on the journey,it doesn't have to be nice looking or definitive. So let's not fight over a torch and look at what alternatives we have (and dismiss them is necessary) Steel: can be welded most everywhere. As long as you have electricity or gaz. If you have an engine in your boat, There are few plans to make welders from old truck generators, I have pdf and links to those interested. Aluminium: - Dillon Mk-4" torch system ( a possibility) more or less dismissed by Gary. If I am not wrong there are aluminium stricks that can be used for emergency repairs (please offer your input) OK that was the long lasting reparations. Now there other ways to repare a hull depending on the size of the reparation - a big clump of closed cell foam - a piece of ply and epoxy glue - a piece of metal and pop rivets - a piece of whatever and screws, add silicon till drenched .... Nadim. | 1624|1612|2003-05-22 07:44:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Steel prep|John, As I said before, I'm sure that the torch actually works. For small work it will do just fine, because you can get the whole piece of metal warm without problem. On large structures though it is very difficult to even get the area of the weld hot, this makes the job far more difficult. Other questions I'd want to know. Was the filler metal used the same as the filler metal used for Tig welding? Was it a special rod they sold with the torch? Some of those special rods are alloys with very poor corrosion resistance, and they can cause electrolysis with the metal they are welded to. Was the claim that the weld was stronger than the parent metal demonstrated by breaking the part, and it broke along side the weld not through it? That may not be an indication that the weld deposit is stronger than the parent metal, it may be an indication the parent metal was weakened during welding. I'm skeptical. Lots of welding shops tell me they never have failures welding 1/8" and 1/4" mild steel with 0.035" mig wire. Those same shops all sent me failed welds on my parts, and insisting that they switch to 0.045" wire solved the problem. So the question remains, what makes the Dillon torch special? Does it somehow overcome the basic thermodynamics that causes large aluminum objects to suck all the heat away from the weld area? Is the heat of the flame as intense as a large Tig welder so it can heat the area so quickly that the weld puddle doesn't have time to lose all its heat? Skeptical, but willing to learn Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > Sooooo..... > You have'nt tried the Dillon torch eh? > So many sceptics so little thyme, when you try this torch, well it's just > not like other torches..... so that's why we invited them to the Toronto > Dry-dock in late fall. There was an awfull wind and a little rain.... what a > feces day! butt, the guy welded aluminium in these shit conditions and the > weld was stronger than the metal it was attached to. Funny ??? No I was > sceptical too, but it's worth checking out. And not just dismissing it > because you don't think it's possible. > > ---------- > >From: "Gary H. Lucas" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > >Date: Wed, May 21, 2003, 20:16 > > > > > John, > > I'm laughing, sorry but that is really funny! I have seen such > > demonstrations before, and they are impressive, until you have this huge > > heatsink called a hull attached to the area you are trying to weld. I've > > done lots of Tig (Tungsten arc, a lot like gas welding) welding on aluminum > > light poles, molds etc. With a 250 amp welding machine turned all the way > > up I had to preheat everything to about 400 degrees over a plumbers melting > > pot furnace to have any chance of welding it. Aluminum takes lots of very > > concentrated heat to weld on a large structure like a boat. Mig (wire > > feed)welders work better because they are able to concentrate all the heat > > in a very small zone. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Jones" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > > > > > >> Try to find a " Dillon Mk-4" torch system. Uses 10 lbs/psi oxy and 10 lbs > >> acetelene and with the proper flux aluminium can be welded in not so ideal > >> conditions and is an interesting torch for use on light steel. Works real > >> good. The factory guy came to our meeting and demonstrated it wearing a > >> suit. > >> > >> ---------- > >> >From: "richytill" > >> >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep > >> >Date: Wed, May 21, 2003, 19:05 > >> > > >> > >> > On aluminium: for the sake of discussion, here are a few thoughts. > >> > For a coastal cruiser where aluminium can be repaired, no problem-- > >> > what if you are offshore where there is no adequate shelter and > >> > equipment to make repairs? I worked on deep sea repair and we can > >> > fix steel anywhere; with simple tools, in brutal conditions. I teach > >> > welding--it is possible for the amatuer to master, but more demanding > >> > in terms of time, cost and attention to detail. I find steel to be > >> > an honest material--it lets you know when it rusts or fatigues. > >> > Aluminium can hide its defects quite well--until it fails. rt > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > >> >> G'day > >> >> > >> >> There's been some very interesting comments about > >> >> water blasting, sand blasting, pre-primed steel and > >> >> un-primed steel. > >> >> > >> >> So here's another factor to toss into the discussion: > >> >> > >> >> Why not build in aluminium? This is about 3 times the > >> >> cost of normal steel, ie. about 50% more expensive > >> >> than pre-primed steel. But the advantage of not > >> >> worrying about paints, blasting and corrosion may be > >> >> worth the additional cost. > >> >> > >> >> Admittedly, the welding is more difficult, but once > >> >> the boat is finished, you only have to worry about > >> >> stray electrical currents and the odd coin in the > >> >> bilge that may bore a hole through the hull. I think > >> >> I prefer aluminium. > >> >> > >> >> Any comments? > >> >> > >> >> Take care, > >> >> > >> >> Jim. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> http://mobile.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Mobile > >> >> - Check & compose your email via SMS on your Telstra or Vodafone > >> > mobile. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1625|1625|2003-05-22 08:19:13|Edward Stone|Aluminium, Steel and a Dillon Torch |John, Gary, When I gas welded aluminium the component lost its hardness because it was annealed in the heat affected zone and I ended up with something I could almost fold like a handkerchief and put into my pocket which is not what I wanted at all. I chose to build in steel for several reasons. Although there are many fine boats in aluminum many that I have seen have fatigue cracks in them. The problem of repairing a crack in aluminium plate or sheet is that it is very important to remove the oxide before welding which means cutting back the face of the crack completely often leaving a hole, which is difficult to fill. Cracks that I have seen are repaired by welding or rivetting a patch over them which is OK but spoils the appearance if that is an issue. Regards, Ted| 1626|1626|2003-05-22 09:23:18|Paul Faulkner|Aluminum vs. steel|This debate has been hashed out before. I think many metal boat builders weigh the pros and cons of these two materials before they build. I initially intended to build in aluminum, but the cost and difficulty in welding put me off. I now have a nearly complete 29' (not origami) hull in steel. Check out www.metalboatsociety.com for a debate on the merits of aluminum vs steel. There are also many other interesting topics on the site. Back issues of the MBS Quarterly have a several issues long debate on aluminum vs steel. ----- Original Message ----- From: De Clarke To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Steel prep the steel vs aluminium debate is of great interest to me... can we hear more on this from others with experience of both? I'd like to hear the full range of pro and con... for a start, I don't know how to assess the condition of an aluminium hull, what to look for, etc. with steel you look for rust and then poke the rusty spots to see how deep they are :-) but what do you do to check the condition of an Al hull? the nice thing about Al hulls I have seen is they don't look rusty :-) and the owner/skippers don't seem to spend a lot of time on rust patrol. that might be worth some extra cost... de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | : :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins : :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1627|1627|2003-05-22 10:36:36|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Aluminium, Steel and a Dillon Torch|Ted, I really like working in aluminum. I used to make spending money repairing RV hot water heater tanks that split wide open from freezing because they weren't drained. Using TIG I never needed to use any filler plates. The secret to filling a hole in aluminum using TIG is to feed the filler wire really fast. The cold filler wire rapidly chills the weld puddle and keeps it from sagging out on you. With MIG it is trickier because basically have to stop and start the arc to freeze the puddle. MIG is great for building, TIG is great for repairing. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Stone" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 8:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminium, Steel and a Dillon Torch > John, Gary, > > When I gas welded aluminium the component lost its hardness because it was > annealed in the heat affected zone and I ended up with something I could > almost fold like a handkerchief and put into my pocket which is not what I > wanted at all. I chose to build in steel for several reasons. Although > there are many fine boats in aluminum many that I have seen have fatigue > cracks in them. The problem of repairing a crack in aluminium plate or > sheet is that it is very important to remove the oxide before welding which > means cutting back the face of the crack completely often leaving a hole, > which is difficult to fill. Cracks that I have seen are repaired by welding > or rivetting a patch over them which is OK but spoils the appearance if that > is an issue. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1628|1612|2003-05-22 10:41:58|nadim|Re: Steel prep|On Wednesday 21 May 2003 16:48, Don Taylor wrote: > Jim: > > What are you going to use for anti-fouling now that TBT is bannned? I thought It would be intressting for all to see what questions I asked Ecosea and the answer I got. Unfortunately the price was too high for the boat I am thinking about. But Brent's boat are not all that large so the investment could be worth it. I am quite sure it would be possible to get a discount. What's the wetted surface with single or twin keel for Brent's boats? For those who would be interested in building the under water body in CuNi, the price is 7 US$ a kilo for a 90-10 alloy. Density is 9. Nadim. ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: RE: information needed Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:17:23 -0400 From: "ecosea@..." To: nadim@... Dear Sir - sorry for the delay in getting back to you - now is a busy time of year for installations etc - however please take a look at our USA web site www.CuNiShield.com where I think you will find the answers to the points you raise in our FAQ section thanks & kind regards Gareth Weed - Ecosea ltd Original Message: ----------------- From: nadim nadim@... Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 15:45:18 +0200 To: info@... Subject: information needed Dear sir, we are a network of backyard boat builders, some of us are very curious about your product. we know well about cupro-nickel properties and are curious about the following points: -what do you mean by CN matrice? Isn't your product a sheet of CN backed with adhesive? - what kind of adhesives do you use and what are its strength properties -what is the dimension and weight , as well as the adhesive thickness -What is the price of such a sheet and do you have a discount policy? (could you please give us prices and details for both the CN foils) I am more on the steel hull side so I have specific questions for mild steel: - does the hull have to be painted bellow the CN foil? - If isolation is needed what do you recommend for the best results? - What interraction occurs when glues to stainless steel? - Does the hull need to be blasted before application and in that case what kind of blasting? - What kind of de-greasing should be applied ? -if a sheet is damaged, how easy is the reparation? How long before the reparation must be made? and what would the corrosion rate for the steel (now at the surface) be? - If I understand it right, the foil must be applied from the stern forward, does it mean a reparation has to be done on the whole length of the boat even if the damage is local? - How well does the CN foil stand when water blasted? Do you have any white paper on CN sheeting vs antifoulling paint (The intressting part being if it is worth it and how many years of use before CN sheathing has paid itself back) Is it possible to get a sample? Do you have a distributor in Sweden, US and Canada (British Columbia)? Anything I forgot to ask for? Thank you for your help. If it's OK I'll post your answer on one or two mailling list. Nadim Khemir.| 1629|1612|2003-05-22 14:40:54|John Jones|Re: Hull repares, Steel vs Aluminium|Oh sure .... we've even used a siliconed chunk of ply "nail gunned" into place just to get her home. Whatever works ---------- >From: nadim >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Hull repares, Steel vs Aluminium >Date: Thu, May 22, 2003, 3:41 > > Hi guys, > > On Thursday 22 May 2003 02:16, Gary H. Lucas wrote: >> .... >> John, >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "John Jones" >> > ... > etc .. The discussion was about aluminium (which I'll answer later) and > then it became about reparation. > > Let's not drive the reparation thread (which is indeed a very intresting > on) like other mailing list. This is origamiboats, smart guys without > money. A reparation is just a way to keep on the journey,it doesn't have > to be nice looking or definitive. So let's not fight over a torch and look > at what alternatives we have (and dismiss them is necessary) > > Steel: > can be welded most everywhere. As long as you have electricity or gaz. If > you have an engine in your boat, There are few plans to make welders from > old truck generators, I have pdf and links to those interested. > > Aluminium: > - Dillon Mk-4" torch system ( a possibility) more or less dismissed by > Gary. > If I am not wrong there are aluminium stricks that can be used for > emergency repairs (please offer your input) > > OK that was the long lasting reparations. > > Now there other ways to repare a hull depending on the size of the > reparation > - a big clump of closed cell foam > - a piece of ply and epoxy glue > - a piece of metal and pop rivets > - a piece of whatever and screws, add silicon till drenched > .... > > Nadim. > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1630|1612|2003-05-22 15:48:04|nadim|Re: Hull repares, Steel vs Aluminium|On Thursday 22 May 2003 20:41, John Jones wrote: > Oh sure .... we've even used a siliconed chunk of ply "nail gunned" into > place just to get her home. > >Whatever works Can't agree more. James Floyed ask me to forward this information: >have you seen this welder? > >www.readywelder.com. >It is a portable MIG, powered by two 12 volt marine batteries. I have seen >them demonstrated and I have a buddy who uses his every day and he loves >it. About $500 US dollars. Safety has no price (well 500$). No one answered my question yet! Are there (or are there not) aluminium sticks one can use with a standard arc welder? I am also suprised that no one wants the plans for a very cheap welder that is worked by the boat engine. Colin send these links a few weeks ago: http://www.geocities.com/damonfg/obweld.html http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gaswelder.html http://www.trailhed.com/welding.html http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Obwelder1.htm want to buy one instead? http://www.zena.net/ even more crazy: http://home8.inet.tele.dk/jan_p/index.htm Nadim.| 1631|1612|2003-05-22 18:45:49|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hull repares, Steel vs Aluminium|Nadim, Yes, there are aluminum stick welding rods. I have not welded with one in a long time so they may have changed. The last time I used them they were difficult to use, partly because they burn up about 3 times faster than steel rods. They also spatter like crazy, and the resultant weld was very hard, and brittle. The ReadyWelder is quite a neat idea. Two 12 volt batteries can certainly supply enough power for short term use, and the voltage falls right in the range you want for aluminum welding. One you have to remember though. For aluminum welding with MIG you need Argon gas, which would be a real pain on a boat. If you want to weld steel you usually use C25, a mixture of Argon and 25% CO2. Straight Argon does a very poor job of welding steel. You can also use straight CO2 for welding steel. It spatters a lot more but produces very sound welds. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "nadim" To: Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull repares, Steel vs Aluminium > On Thursday 22 May 2003 20:41, John Jones wrote: > > Oh sure .... we've even used a siliconed chunk of ply "nail gunned" into > > place just to get her home. > > > >Whatever works > Can't agree more. > > James Floyed ask me to forward this information: > >have you seen this welder? > > > >www.readywelder.com. > > >It is a portable MIG, powered by two 12 volt marine batteries. I have seen > >them demonstrated and I have a buddy who uses his every day and he loves > >it. About $500 US dollars. > > Safety has no price (well 500$). No one answered my question yet! Are there > (or are there not) aluminium sticks one can use with a standard arc > welder? > > I am also suprised that no one wants the plans for a very cheap welder that > is worked by the boat engine. > > Colin send these links a few weeks ago: > > http://www.geocities.com/damonfg/obweld.html > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gaswelder.html > http://www.trailhed.com/welding.html > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Obwelder1.htm > > want to buy one instead? > http://www.zena.net/ > > even more crazy: > > http://home8.inet.tele.dk/jan_p/index.htm > > Nadim. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1632|1612|2003-05-23 14:30:16|sae140|engines & generators|Could anyone with a built 31 or 36 hull advise me of the height available for use under the cockpit footwell. I'm considering the installation of an up-an-over back-to-front engine installation (poor man's 'V' drive) in that location, to keep the cabin completely clear. If it looks feasible, then I can be getting on with this whilst waiting for the plans and steel to arrive. Thanks. Some years ago there was an article in the august journal Scientific American demonstrating the power of pyramidal stuctures to (amongst other things) sharpen blunt razor blades. This article is still being quoted by some new age 'experts' as 'proof' of forces beyond our comprehension. What many people failed to spot at the time (and since) was that the article was written on April 1st. So - with this in mind, you may care to take a look at MEG - the Motionless Electromagnetic Generator at: http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm If it works, then it would solve the cruising man's engine and fuel supply problems in one hit. Of course it might just be a sophisticated spoof .... A more down-to-earth device for charging your batteries, with more efficiency than shown by Brent in his book (same methods, but different motor) can be found at: http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_motor_convert.html As it's a mains motor (with a simple conversion), it hits battery charging voltages at around 80 rpm. At 400 rpm it generates well in excess of 5 amps - sounds good for a towed prop (or your existing prop allowed to rotate ?), and for a low rpm wind generator ? I'm in the process of making a small one - will keep you posted. There are also (free) plans available for making a pancake style alternator which, if scaled down, would be very similar to commercial yachtie generators. Colin| 1633|1633|2003-05-23 18:06:59|put_to_sea|CuNi hull bottom|I have been wondering about the feasibility of using CuNi on the hull bottom only below the water line. As I understand it (and my understanding is always suspect) steel can be welded to CuNi. Of course CuNi is pretty darned expensive but by limiting its use to the underwater portions of the hull maybe it wouldn't be quite so bad. I was thinking of some cost savings that would go along with its use: no bottom paint, no zincs, no sandblasting, no paint or corrosion in the bilge, just weld in copper pipe for through hulls, cleaner bottom, ground the aluminum or steel mast to the copper bottom for lightening protection, there's probably more. I still can't see how all of that would offset the initial cost but it would help close the gap. It still would be pretty tough for us poor guys to swing. Amos| 1634|1633|2003-05-24 10:08:32|nadim|Re: CuNi hull bottom|Hi Amos, On Saturday 24 May 2003 00:06, put_to_sea wrote: > I have been wondering about the feasibility of using CuNi on the > hull bottom only below the water line. As I understand it (and my > understanding is always suspect) steel can be welded to CuNi. Of > course CuNi is pretty darned expensive but by limiting its use to > the underwater portions of the hull maybe it wouldn't be quite so > bad. I was thinking of some cost savings that would go along with > its use: no bottom paint, no zincs, no sandblasting, no paint or > corrosion in the bilge, just weld in copper pipe for through hulls, > cleaner bottom, ground the aluminum or steel mast to the copper > bottom for lightening protection, there's probably more. I still > can't see how all of that would offset the initial cost but it would > help close the gap. It still would be pretty tough for us poor guys > to swing. > > Amos I have looked very seriously into that and as for a steel or plastic hull there are adavantages and disadvantages. CuNi is very expensive 15-20 times more expensive than steel, the material used for welding is also expensive, welding CuNi is a more serious mater than steel. The mechanical property of CuNi is not as good as steel. the fact that you'd get a hull 10% heavier is also a problem, do you want to take water with you or CuNi? Electrochimical potential of CuNi is -0.25V (quite low) which means you'll have to be carefull when mixing to other metals. I think you are going to get more corrosion problems than a 100% steel hull. the good new is that the problems will be above the waterline.Since you are opting for a mono hull, the waterline you consider should be the heeled one. The idea I have in mind (for the cat I want to build some day) is also a bottom in CuNi and ply/fiber top sides. So you are not the only crazy guy around. If I may suggest something, buy a few square meters of CuNi, play with it ans weld it to form a model (say 1/5 scale). And let us know about you experience. There is CuNi clad steel to buy, that is also very expensive but might be less expensive than building 2 halfs. The expension rate of steel and copper might be diffrent too, I don't know the implication of it (yet) but we must remember that point. Visiting this link might help: http://marine.copper.org/ I think that glueing copper (no CuNi) sheets with polyester would be an order of magnitude cheaper and easier to build. The EcoSea solution is also an alternative. Nadim. | 1635|1633|2003-05-24 11:05:04|sae140|Re: CuNi hull bottom|I've often wondered why thin copper sheet (say, from disused domestic hot water cylinders ?) isn't epoxied onto steel hulls below the water- line only. Might need to be applied a couple of square feet at a time, to make the process manageable - the sheets overlapping fish- scale fashion. As the origami hull starts-off life as a flat sheet itself, there shouldn't be any wrinkling of the copper. In theory, providing there's a layer of epoxy between the steel and the copper, then electrolysis shouldn't be a problem, and you could say goodbye to anti-fouling/ haul-out costs .... But somehow, attaching a more noble metal than steel to the hull feels kinda scary - like what happens if the hull takes a hit from something sharp, which puts the 2 metals in contact ? Mind you - not such a different situation from that if you'd used copper-laced paint ? Colin| 1636|1633|2003-05-24 11:30:48|nadim|Re: CuNi hull bottom|Hi Colin, On Saturday 24 May 2003 17:05, sae140 wrote: > I've often wondered why thin copper sheet (say, from disused domestic > hot water cylinders ?) isn't epoxied onto steel hulls below the water- > line only. Might need to be applied a couple of square feet at a > time, to make the process manageable - the sheets overlapping fish- > scale fashion. As the origami hull starts-off life as a flat sheet > itself, there shouldn't be any wrinkling of the copper. > In theory, providing there's a layer of epoxy between the steel and > the copper, then electrolysis shouldn't be a problem, and you could > say goodbye to anti-fouling/ haul-out costs .... > But somehow, attaching a more noble metal than steel to the hull > feels kinda scary - like what happens if the hull takes a hit from > something sharp, which puts the 2 metals in contact ? > Mind you - not such a different situation from that if you'd used > copper-laced paint ? > > Colin IMO, it's the way to go. it's a borring job but painting a hull is not less borring. I wouldn't use 2nd hand copper sheets without giving it a very thorow cleansing (chemical). Those sheets might have been in contact with chemicals that could inpair the anti fouling. The good thing is that copper is cheap (it's the %$# nickel that is expensive). The corrosion problem should be avoided if the thickness of the glue is enough. As a side effect that layer of glue act as a layer of paint. I think the glue used shouldn't be too hard (read no epoxy). If the two metal are in contact, only the steel around the the contact will transfer (corrode). a sheetead hull must be watched more closely and repaired immediately. That would indicate twin keels for that kind of hull. I am not quite sure about reparations. Copper thickness 0.2 to 0.5mm is more than enough and quite easy to work with. Another added factor to copper hull is speed as they remain _quite_ clean. In Bruce roberts book about metal boat building, there is a chapter on CuNi, you might want to have a look at it. So.Who is building a prototype? Nadim. | 1637|1633|2003-05-24 19:47:16|Graeme Mitchell|Re: CuNi hull bottom|There was a boat built at around the 1900.S to defend the America,S cup it was apparently made out of several dissimilar metals and was a engineering marvel at the time, it was said that it fizzled like soda when it was put in the water it went on to retain the cup as history has it .But it was scraped after about 6 months as how the story goes it was stuffed due to all these multi metal s not getting along. I will find the name of this yacht and post it later I have read about it somewhere. Graeme ( the metric wizz) -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 24, 2003 11:30:52 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: CuNi hull bottom Hi Colin, On Saturday 24 May 2003 17:05, sae140 wrote: > I've often wondered why thin copper sheet (say, from disused domestic > hot water cylinders ?) isn't epoxied onto steel hulls below the water- > line only. Might need to be applied a couple of square feet at a > time, to make the process manageable - the sheets overlapping fish- > scale fashion. As the origami hull starts-off life as a flat sheet > itself, there shouldn't be any wrinkling of the copper. > In theory, providing there's a layer of epoxy between the steel and > the copper, then electrolysis shouldn't be a problem, and you could > say goodbye to anti-fouling/ haul-out costs .... > But somehow, attaching a more noble metal than steel to the hull > feels kinda scary - like what happens if the hull takes a hit from > something sharp, which puts the 2 metals in contact ? > Mind you - not such a different situation from that if you'd used > copper-laced paint ? > > Colin IMO, it's the way to go. it's a borring job but painting a hull is not less borring. I wouldn't use 2nd hand copper sheets without giving it a very thorow cleansing (chemical). Those sheets might have been in contact with chemicals that could inpair the anti fouling. The good thing is that copper is cheap (it's the %$# nickel that is expensive). The corrosion problem should be avoided if the thickness of the glue is enough. As a side effect that layer of glue act as a layer of paint. I think the glue used shouldn't be too hard (read no epoxy). If the two metal are in contact, only the steel around the the contact will transfer (corrode). a sheetead hull must be watched more closely and repaired immediately. That would indicate twin keels for that kind of hull. I am not quite sure about reparations. Copper thickness 0.2 to 0.5mm is more than enough and quite easy to work with. Another added factor to copper hull is speed as they remain _quite_ clean. In Bruce roberts book about metal boat building, there is a chapter on CuNi, you might want to have a look at it. So.Who is building a prototype? Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1638|1633|2003-05-25 06:13:33|Graeme Mitchell|Re: CuNi hull bottom|OK Take 2 the name of the fizzling boat was Reliance and it was dismantled 2 months after the America,s cup not 6 months as i seemed to remember and the year was 1903 it was described as the most useless boat ever ??????.... That was back in 1903 pre Titanic I am sure there are other boats that now have that honour. Graeme metric whiz -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 24, 2003 23:30:52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: CuNi hull bottom Hi Colin, On Saturday 24 May 2003 17:05, sae140 wrote: > I've often wondered why thin copper sheet (say, from disused domestic > hot water cylinders ?) isn't epoxied onto steel hulls below the water- > line only. Might need to be applied a couple of square feet at a > time, to make the process manageable - the sheets overlapping fish- > scale fashion. As the origami hull starts-off life as a flat sheet > itself, there shouldn't be any wrinkling of the copper. > In theory, providing there's a layer of epoxy between the steel and > the copper, then electrolysis shouldn't be a problem, and you could > say goodbye to anti-fouling/ haul-out costs .... > But somehow, attaching a more noble metal than steel to the hull > feels kinda scary - like what happens if the hull takes a hit from > something sharp, which puts the 2 metals in contact ? > Mind you - not such a different situation from that if you'd used > copper-laced paint ? > > Colin IMO, it's the way to go. it's a borring job but painting a hull is not less borring. I wouldn't use 2nd hand copper sheets without giving it a very thorow cleansing (chemical). Those sheets might have been in contact with chemicals that could inpair the anti fouling. The good thing is that copper is cheap (it's the %$# nickel that is expensive). The corrosion problem should be avoided if the thickness of the glue is enough. As a side effect that layer of glue act as a layer of paint. I think the glue used shouldn't be too hard (read no epoxy). If the two metal are in contact, only the steel around the the contact will transfer (corrode). a sheetead hull must be watched more closely and repaired immediately. That would indicate twin keels for that kind of hull. I am not quite sure about reparations. Copper thickness 0.2 to 0.5mm is more than enough and quite easy to work with. Another added factor to copper hull is speed as they remain _quite_ clean. In Bruce roberts book about metal boat building, there is a chapter on CuNi, you might want to have a look at it. So.Who is building a prototype? Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1639|1633|2003-05-25 12:24:40|nadim|Re: CuNi hull bottom|Hi, On Sunday 25 May 2003 12:12, Graeme Mitchell wrote: > Take 2 the name of the fizzling boat was Reliance and it was dismantled > 2 months after the America,s cup not 6 months as i seemed to remember > and the year was 1903 it was described as the most useless boat ever > ??????.... > Graeme > metric whiz I can't agree less, America's cup boats are completely useless, 1903 or 2003. Cheers, Nadim. Metric adict. | 1640|1633|2003-05-25 13:59:45|edward_stoneuk|Re: CuNi hull bottom|There is a recent thread on CuNi stick on tiles on the Metal Boat Society's forum. Regards, Ted| 1641|1633|2003-05-25 16:35:23|nadim|Re: CuNi hull bottom|On Sunday 25 May 2003 19:59, edward_stoneuk wrote: > There is a recent thread on CuNi stick on tiles on the Metal Boat > Society's forum. > Ted thanks Ted, here is a direct link: http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46&highlight=cuni Was it this thread you meant Ted? Cheers, Nadim| 1642|1642|2003-05-25 17:50:57|yvesmariedetanton|Building a 63' Cu-Ni sail boat.|For your information. I have photos of a 63 footer under construction. Please visit Http://www.tantonyachts.com Click on Drawings;page 9; design #964.| 1643|1633|2003-05-25 23:59:13|sae140|Re: CuNi hull bottom|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > IMO, it's the way to go. it's a borring job but painting a hull is not less > borring. I wouldn't use 2nd hand copper sheets without giving it a very > thorow cleansing (chemical). I'm sure you're right about using new copper - I just enjoy re- cycling stuff wherever possible. If anyone does decide to go down this route, I'd suggest placing a spacer fabric underneath the copper - such as plasterer's fibreglass scrim - to ensure 0.2 mm or more of glue remains under all of the copper sheet, even when compressed against the hull during curing. I suppose Dow Corning silicone rubber might be a useful adhesive for this application - the stuff used to glue glass fish tanks together. I think it has a 10yrs+ guarantee. Cure time would be lengthy though, as the acetic acid liberated during cure needs to find it's way out of the bond. Same story with adhesives using a volatile solvent base. My money would still be on epoxy - the Rapid Araldite-type (from the Ciba group) which, although not being flexible as such, retains some resistance to shock - unlike the so-called 'precision' (or standard) Araldite which sets brittle, and will shatter if stressed. Whatever you use, needless to say it must be able to withstand being smacked by pot-marker buoys and flotsam, being rubbed against by the odd rope or two, and maybe even the occasional brush with an anchor chain. (i.e. stick it on *good*) Never seen this done before, so perhaps there's something we've overlooked ? Colin| 1644|1633|2003-05-26 05:15:34|Edward Stone|Re: CuNi hull bottom|I was referring to this one Nadim. It is about stick on CuNi http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=530&sid=07bf27882e30ca96a053730d0e526e50 Regards, Ted| 1645|1633|2003-05-27 11:34:55|pvanderwaart|Re: CuNi hull bottom|> There was a boat built at around the 1900.S to defend the > America's cup it was apparently made out of several > dissimilar metals and was a engineering marvel at the time, > it was said that it fizzled like soda when it was put in > the water it went on to retain the cup as history has it. > But it was scraped after about 6 months.... My research suggests that this is a mixture of the history of two yachts. Defender, designed by NG Herreshoff had a bronze bottom riveted to aluminum topsides. She defended in 1895 and was broken up in 1901. There were problems keeping paint on the topsides, and the aluminum rivets corroded away. The real horror story was the 1901 yacht Independence designed by B.B. Crowninshield. She had nickle-steel frames, bronze and steel plating and an aluminum deck. She had structual failure beginning immediately, and was broken up three months after launch. She sailed and lost a couple races in the defender series, and never defended the cup. 'Traditions and Memories of American Yachting', William P. Stephens. As I remember, there were similar problems with the Statue Of Liberty where the copper sheathing connects to the iron frame. The original constuction used leather for insulation. I'd stick to one metal, myself. Peter| 1646|1612|2003-05-27 13:59:05|nelstomlinson|Re: engines & generators|Hi, Colin, I glanced at some of the materials explaining the ``motionless generator''. The idea of vaccuume energy , and the idea of tapping it, aren't new. The idea that it is feasible does seem to be new. I'm not a physicist, and I have difficulty reading some of the math in the papers, so take what I say here with a grain of salt. I believe that the idea of vaccuume energy is a consequence of one of several competing theories (can't remember which!). I think that the way everyone else has dealt with it was by positing that the energy was ``destroyed'' as fast as it was ``created''. I.e., that the energy was an accounting fiction, and not ``real''. This fellow seems to have found another explanation, which makes it real. I'm not really competent to judge his explanation. My guess is that this is not obviously impossible, but rather doubtful. I suppose that if this turns out to be real, it will be strong emperical evidence for theories which include vaccuume energy. It will also be bad news for OPEC. He claims to have a US patent on this nifty novelty. The US patent system is severely broken; they'll grant a patent for any obvious thing. There is, for example, a patent issued to a 7 year old for a http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm &r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,368,227'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,368,227&RS=PN/6,368,227 method of swinging (on a playground swing). Except for eternal motion machines, they don't require a working model. This doesn't claim to be an eternal motion machine, so the existence of a patent doesn't imply that this will actually work. If it does work, the inventor will have a monopoly on the method in the US for around 20 years. I predict that this (if real) will be commonly used starting in about 20 years. The author claims to have gotten an article on this published in a peer-reviewed physics journal. That impresses me far more than the patent. That suggests that he may not be a crackpot, or at least that the cracks in his pot haven't let quite all the sense leak out. On the other hand, the letters on his website seem to me to show all the symptoms of crackpottery: claims of grandiose discovery, rejection by by the mainstream, claims that his work is being suppressed ... usw. If it weren't for that publication, I'd dismiss this out of hand. In summary, that second link seems far more likely to be valuable. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Could anyone with a built 31 or 36 hull advise me of the height > available for use under the cockpit footwell. I'm considering the > installation of an up-an-over back-to-front engine installation (poor > man's 'V' drive) in that location, to keep the cabin completely > clear. If it looks feasible, then I can be getting on with this > whilst waiting for the plans and steel to arrive. Thanks. > > > Some years ago there was an article in the august journal Scientific > American demonstrating the power of pyramidal stuctures to (amongst > other things) sharpen blunt razor blades. This article is still being > quoted by some new age 'experts' as 'proof' of forces beyond our > comprehension. What many people failed to spot at the time (and > since) was that the article was written on April 1st. > > So - with this in mind, you may care to take a look at MEG - the > Motionless Electromagnetic Generator at: > http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm If it works, then it would solve > the cruising man's engine and fuel supply problems in one hit. Of > course it might just be a sophisticated spoof .... > > > A more down-to-earth device for charging your batteries, with more > efficiency than shown by Brent in his book (same methods, but > different motor) can be found at: > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_motor_convert.html > > As it's a mains motor (with a simple conversion), it hits battery > charging voltages at around 80 rpm. At 400 rpm it generates well in > excess of 5 amps - sounds good for a towed prop (or your existing > prop allowed to rotate ?), and for a low rpm wind generator ? > > I'm in the process of making a small one - will keep you posted. > > There are also (free) plans available for making a pancake style > alternator which, if scaled down, would be very similar to commercial > yachtie generators. > > Colin | 1647|1500|2003-05-27 17:34:22|nelstomlinson|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi, Nadim, Sorry about the long delay in replying to your post; we've a new baby (number 3), and life has been turned upside down. About units: we would probably be better off to use natural units, to avoid the metric/standard confusion. In this case, we would probably be best served expressing density using the density of water as 1. That makes the density of steel about 7.9, and of aluminum about 2.6. The closed-cell foam I mentioned has a density of about 0.004. We're agreed that, ideally, we would want the density of our finished boat, in cruising trim, with a large hole in the bottom, to be about 0.8. You pointed out that if we merely give the swamped boat neutral buoyancy (0.98 or so), it will float with decks awash, and that makes self-rescue terribly difficult. That's entirely true, but compare that to the situation with swamped density >1. Even with the decks awash, you have access to whatever was aboard and didn't get washed out. Merely neutral buoyancy is nothing to sneeze at. Some company makes large, inflatable bags (called Yachtsavers, I think?) which one inflates in the cabin when the boat is sinking. I would think that neutral buoyancy plus a couple small airbags would be a very reasonable system. Even if both bags fail, with neutral buoyancy the hull stays at the surface, giving you a chance to do something constructive. With at least one bag inflated, density is <0.9 and life is good (relatively speaking). The great advantages to this would be first that the cost of two smaller bags might be less than the cost of one huge bag (remember, 400 ft^3 for the 40 footer); second that neutral buoyancy and a pair of deflated bags leaves a lot more interior room than would enough foam to give similar positive buoyancy; third that smaller bags(s) leave you more room inside to get to tools, supplies, et cetera in the event you must inflate them; and fourth, even if neither bag inflates, you are still on top of the water, even if just barely. You pointed out that foam in the bilges isn't a good idea, and that seems to be the general consensus. The whole idea is to seal up unused space, so why not just make any bilge volumes we'd contemplate foaming into air tanks? Watertight cleanouts would give you the option of stashing some stuff in them, and let you inspect the inside of the hull. The tanks could be filled with foam, if that seemed appropriate. I haven't gotten around to talking to the fire department yet about this nifty closed cell foam the builders around here are using. I'm still a couple years away from purchasing plans (still have to pay off some student loans), so I'm not in a rush. I'd suggest that anyone who's looking for insulation/floatation look into what builders are spraying into houses in their area, and then talk to their local fire departments about it. I mentioned a Jabsco pump and a PTO. I think that any North American farm boy or fisherman would know what these are, but I should have remembered that some of the folks reading this list aren't in those two groups. PTO is a Power TakeOff. That's an alternate output shaft on a transmission. Usually the PTO can be powered when the transmission is in neutral. So, one can send the engine's entire power to the machine on the PTO. Jabsco is a brand of pumps, available here in the Pacific Northwest. What I had in mind are the flexible impeller models (look here: http://www.twindiscse.com/jabsco/impeller1.shtml and here: http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfoApp/servlet/DisplayI temDetail?itemId=30540-0003&catalogId=Industrial&c ategoryId=JIFLX&typeId=JIFSS ) Now that I look, a better bet might be something like the big contractor's trash pump in this brochure ( http://www.gormanrupp.com/products/man/conmkt/pdfs/up_01790.pdf ). The 6 inch pump, powered by the 42hp Wisconsin diesel, is self priming and can handle 2 5/8 inch solids, at up to 1200 GPM. Something like that, hooked directly to the main engine, would give you some time to get some plywood and epoxy on a hole. The positive floatation, however achieved (i.e., neutral buoyancy and airbags or positive buoyancy without airbags) would of course give even more time. Rebuilding a pump doesn't take much mechanical aptitude, IF you can get the parts. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a worn out trash pump at a farmer's or contractor's auction, if you took the time to look. Bret's theory about transverse frames is that they are very short, stiff, rigid reinforcements. When a rock or a container or a deadhead slams into your hull, if it hits near instead of directly on a transverse frame, the foreign object and the rigid frame act as the two blades of a shear, and slice through the plate. The long longitudinal frames are considerably springier, so a strike near them may not shear through the plate. In fact, I would hope that the impact could be distributed over a large part of the hull, and that it might take a much more concentrated force to punch a hole in a hull with only longitudinal framing. Obviously, the idea I had, of fastening a bulkhead to the longitudinals, stiffens them and might make things worse instead of better. When we're talking about floatation, we should remember that the first choice is to not let the hole get punched at all. If I've misrepresented Bret's ideas in these last two paragraphs, I hope he'll set me straight. I do still like the idea of putting watertight bulkheads in the ends of the boat, in the parts which are almost entirely above waterline. That, together with enough insulation for Southeast Alaska, would be more than enough floatation up high to give you a second chance if your airbags didn't inflate. The stiffening effect shouldn't be such a problem in this case. I'd suggest accessing them through watertight deck plates (on deck), and using the space for stowing only very light stuff, like Ramen noodles, winter clothes and such, which you won't want at sea. Conventional wisdom holds that it's best to keep weight out of the ends of a boat, anyway. This would give a few cubic feet of floatation at the bow, and many cubic feet at the stern. You could get the same effect a lot cheaper by stuffing those areas in the bow and stern with blue foam board, held in place with cargo nets, but you'd lose the storage space. I think that with a bit of thought, we could get at least to the neutral buoyancy point without adding too much to the cost, and without subtracting too much from the utility, of the boat. I think that watching me pump the boat full of water, and then pump it out again, all without disappearing under the water, would make my wife feel a lot safer. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to cut costs on interior finish to make up for any extra cost in achieving that. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > Hi Nels, > On Sunday 13 April 2003 19:25, nelstomlinson wrote: > > I think that Nadim and I are more or less on the same wavelength. We > > seem to agree that relying for safety on a strong hull is a good > > start, but not a good finish. > I'll keep on playing the devils advocate even if we agree. > > > Steel weighs 490 lb/ft^3. 3/16th plate then weighs 490 lbs/64ft^2, or > > 7.67 lbs/ft^2. > > Urethane foam, such as builders use here to insulate houses, weighs > > about 2 lbs/ft^3, and sea water weighs 64 lbs/ft^3. That's 62 lbs > > flotation /ft^3. > Do I hate imperial units! I switch to SI. So that's 32 Kg/m3 for the foam. > Is that a closed cell foam? For how long time? In the air or in the water. > You wouldn't want your boat to float just to see it sinking slowly. > > > Pretty plainly, for the 40 footer with its 25,000 lbs displacement, > That's 11400 kg. Is that fully loaded? did you count the batteries, the > chains, The two girl friends you made in the last harbor (OK they can swim > so they don't need to be counted in the displacement) > > > we'd need 400 ft^3 of foam. Wow. > 11.3 m3, yes wow. now those 11 m3 weight 350 Kg that you must also count > in. Now you have a boat that has density 1 but that's not good enough > because that doesn't actually float. You need the density to be 0.8. > > > Remember, though, that a tank of > > diesel has roughly neutral buoyancy (a 55-gallon drum of oil will > > float with an inch or two of free-board). I'm told that interior > > joinery is also neutral. The freshwater in your water tank will be > > neutral. So, that 400 ft^3 has a bit of safety margin. > I'd recommend not going with the approximations. Take the hour or 2 that > are needed and find the weight of your boat when immersed. > > > As long as the plate is more than half the displacement of the boat, 3 > > inches of urethane over the entire inside would do the trick. I'd > > want that much for insulation, anyway. > You want the flotation to be as low as possible. so insulation on the top > sides is not going to help you much. The indulation of the deck/roof is > completely useless for floatation so it is best not to count it at all. > You'll float but that's about it. > > >plus filling the bilge spaces with either foam logs or spray-in foam, > Foam in the bilges is not a very good idea, it gets soaked (again only what > you see with your own eye is the truth (don't even trust me on this one)) > and you have no flotation when you need it. Buy some of the stuff you want > to use. Weight it and then put it in a bucket with sea water and diesel so > the diesel is in contact with the foam, put a weight on it and tell us > about it in six months (weight it again then). > > > would give positive flotation > would? Buy now I think you understood that would is not good enough. > > > The contractor I spoke to assured me that urethane foam doesn't > > support combustion. We tried to light a chunk, and I believe him. It > > slowly withered, a bit, as it got hot. > Have you seen a fire from close? that's not the same as trying with a > lighter. There is one source that I would trust (after I do my own test), > the fire brigade. Give them a call they would certainly be happy to give > you the information you are looking for. > > > He assured me that it didn't > > give off poison gasses as it heated. I haven't verified that yet. > I am interested in knowing when you have the information (the fire brigade > might help here too.) > > > University of Alaska, Fairbanks, inadvertently did a relevant > > experiment while I was there, years ago. We learned that polyurethane > > foam (blue foam, commonly used in roofs and underground because it is > > ``waterproof'') DOES absorb enough water to significantly degrade its > > insulating ability. It still floated, after many years being > > submerged under 15-plus feet of water. > To what extent did it float? > > > By the way, Nadim, I interpreted the ``5 feet of insulation'' in the > > article to mean that the bilge was 5 feet deep, and filled all the way > > down. > For me the bilge is the part that is not used,it's under the floor (tell me > if I am wrong). then 5 feet of foam to fill the bilge definitely rings a > bell. Something is wrong with that image. 60 ft is a big boat but believe > me you don't want to loose 5 feet even under the bilge. Just consider the > weight and money put in foam. how do you inspect a hull under 5 feet of > foam. Now if the bilge is everything under the deck, the information > doesn't help much. > > >I would think that if you prepped the bilge with epoxy paint, > > sprayed in the foam, then put a coat of the epoxy over the top, the > > foam should never get wet, and there shouldn't be any water logging or > > corrosion problems. > :-) I say you are wrong, very wrong. You'll get water logging and you > corrosion problems will get worse. Someone with hands on experience could > tell us if you or I am right? > > > About bulkheads, and sealing off the engine room: > > > > A big problem with watertight bulkheads is that you can get holed on > > both sides of one or more. I suggested bulkheading off the very ends > > of the boat. If the bulkheaded areas are portions which are (almost) > > entirely above the waterline, there shouldn't much danger of them > > being holed along with the rest of the boat. They won't take too much > > away from the accommodations, and could still be used to store sails, > > lines, and similar light stuff. > Do you access it from the deck or from within the boat? > > > You would have to have a water-cooled engine. > Except if you are going to build a sauna, you don't have much choice > > > Nadim's idea of a fire-extinguisher-sized inspection > > port sounds sensible. > It's not my idea. it is very sensible and extremely cheap. Have you counted > the weight of the 12 Kg fire extinguisher_S_? > > >You could mount a big Jabsco pump on a PTO, > What's that in plain English? > > > with big suction hoses running to each compartment. You'd want a pump > > which can handle pumping cats, rats, and whatever trash might land in > > the bilge. > Do you know the size and weight of those things? Most pump problem are due > to paper floating around. small stuff is as dangerous as big one and > should not be under estimated. > > > If you were holed, a 40HP diesel pump should be able to > > keep up with a fair sized hole. > Hold on sailor. how are you going to connect it your engine? how big is it? > can you run that without having the propeller rotating? if not, you'll > never get 40 HP at the pump. And to finish destroying your dream about the > mighty pump, a 40 HP pump is not worth a rat ass if you get any serious > hole in you hull.If you want we can get to the figures. I don't say that > you shouldn't actively try to pump the water out but one or two m3 of well > placed foam might get a better result and cost much less. Foam is always > ready, your engine not. > > > I don't know whether it would be practical to have an ``engine room'' > > on a smaller boat. I do know that I have lived close to engines a > > bit, and it's not good. It would be worth compromising the > > accommodations just a tiny bit to get the engine out of the cabin's > > air. The fact that it could add to safety just ices the cake. > OK, I can tell you how I have done in my boat (well I have room in it but I > think it still applies to small boats). What you want is to have the > possibility to get close to your engine if it is in fire. if you have a > frame around your engine (can be very close to the engine) and plank it > with 2-3 cm thick wood so you can't see the engine any more, you have > multiplied your chance. The planks can be bolted or hinged or slid in a U > shape profile. The engine box doesn't have to be 100% water or air tight > but it's definitely a plus. > > > Brent has said repeatedly that fastening transverse frames or > > bulkheads to the skin is a bad plan > Why is that? > > >, and if we don't believe him, why > > are we betting our lives on his plans? > Brent has experience but you might have an idea he didn't have yet. I like > Brent's approach but while you or I might be pumping water out, Brent > might be sipping a beer in Hawaii. No, I don't bet my life or my kids life > on any of Brent's plans (or any other designer) because it's not about > betting but being sure. > > > Tell me if this proposal sounds workable: Fasten angle irons to the > > longitudinals in a ring where the bulkhead is to go. Epoxy paint the > > inside of the hull. Bolt on to the ring a plywood bulkhead, and bed > > it against the hull with something like 5200. The bulkhead could be > > made of 2 layers of 1/2 inch plywood with a layer of glass between, > > and reinforced with one or two angle iron bolted on across the storage > > side, if need be. Now foam the hull, burying the edge of the bulkhead > > in the foam. > It does sound workable. What surface of bulkhead are we talking about here? > How much does all this weight? > > >... > > suppose that you could rig up submarine-style doors, to be hung at > > ... > I am not building a mono (the simple fact that I want to float and that a > mono needs a few tons of lead to stand right make me choose a cat). That > doesn't mean cat are safer by design. Looked at some cats lately? They all > seem to have _BIG_ 2 panes doors-window so the owner feels like he is on a > Riviera somewhere. I can't stop myself from seeing a big wave crash on the > deck in front of the door and get in thought that big open door (yeah it's > closed by then but it is still made of glass). U boat type doors, > specially if the opening starts 30-50 cm from the floor, make a lot of > sense. > > > It seems obvious that flotation and bulkheads aren't going to work as > > afterthoughts; you'd have to plan for them, and build them in, right > > from the beginning. > What boat are you building? What are the dimentions? Twin or single keel? > > Cheers, > Nadim. | 1648|1612|2003-05-27 20:35:02|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: engines & generators|The problem is more likely in manufacturing the device. Quantum physics allows for many effects that appear to defy common sense. However, a quantum event that works at sub-microscopic levels doesn't work as the scale is increased. Thus, while it is quite possible that a quantum event could be harnessed to create something from nothing - the energy available is extremely small. If you try to increase the size of the machine to make something useful, the quantum effect is lost. If you try to make billions of these machine to create something useful, the costs exceed that of burning oil. greg ps: new site - some double and triple dart origami boats: http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: nelstomlinson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines & generators Hi, Colin, I glanced at some of the materials explaining the ``motionless generator''. The idea of vaccuume energy , and the idea of tapping it, aren't new. The idea that it is feasible does seem to be new. I'm not a physicist, and I have difficulty reading some of the math in the papers, so take what I say here with a grain of salt. I believe that the idea of vaccuume energy is a consequence of one of several competing theories (can't remember which!). I think that the way everyone else has dealt with it was by positing that the energy was ``destroyed'' as fast as it was ``created''. I.e., that the energy was an accounting fiction, and not ``real''. This fellow seems to have found another explanation, which makes it real. I'm not really competent to judge his explanation. My guess is that this is not obviously impossible, but rather doubtful. I suppose that if this turns out to be real, it will be strong emperical evidence for theories which include vaccuume energy. It will also be bad news for OPEC. He claims to have a US patent on this nifty novelty. The US patent system is severely broken; they'll grant a patent for any obvious thing. There is, for example, a patent issued to a 7 year old for a http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm &r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,368,227'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,368,227&RS=PN/6,368,227 method of swinging (on a playground swing). Except for eternal motion machines, they don't require a working model. This doesn't claim to be an eternal motion machine, so the existence of a patent doesn't imply that this will actually work. If it does work, the inventor will have a monopoly on the method in the US for around 20 years. I predict that this (if real) will be commonly used starting in about 20 years. The author claims to have gotten an article on this published in a peer-reviewed physics journal. That impresses me far more than the patent. That suggests that he may not be a crackpot, or at least that the cracks in his pot haven't let quite all the sense leak out. On the other hand, the letters on his website seem to me to show all the symptoms of crackpottery: claims of grandiose discovery, rejection by by the mainstream, claims that his work is being suppressed ... usw. If it weren't for that publication, I'd dismiss this out of hand. In summary, that second link seems far more likely to be valuable. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Could anyone with a built 31 or 36 hull advise me of the height > available for use under the cockpit footwell. I'm considering the > installation of an up-an-over back-to-front engine installation (poor > man's 'V' drive) in that location, to keep the cabin completely > clear. If it looks feasible, then I can be getting on with this > whilst waiting for the plans and steel to arrive. Thanks. > > > Some years ago there was an article in the august journal Scientific > American demonstrating the power of pyramidal stuctures to (amongst > other things) sharpen blunt razor blades. This article is still being > quoted by some new age 'experts' as 'proof' of forces beyond our > comprehension. What many people failed to spot at the time (and > since) was that the article was written on April 1st. > > So - with this in mind, you may care to take a look at MEG - the > Motionless Electromagnetic Generator at: > http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm If it works, then it would solve > the cruising man's engine and fuel supply problems in one hit. Of > course it might just be a sophisticated spoof .... > > > A more down-to-earth device for charging your batteries, with more > efficiency than shown by Brent in his book (same methods, but > different motor) can be found at: > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_motor_convert.html > > As it's a mains motor (with a simple conversion), it hits battery > charging voltages at around 80 rpm. At 400 rpm it generates well in > excess of 5 amps - sounds good for a towed prop (or your existing > prop allowed to rotate ?), and for a low rpm wind generator ? > > I'm in the process of making a small one - will keep you posted. > > There are also (free) plans available for making a pancake style > alternator which, if scaled down, would be very similar to commercial > yachtie generators. > > Colin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1649|1500|2003-05-27 20:48:36|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi, On Tuesday 27 May 2003 23:34, nelstomlinson wrote: > Sorry about the long delay in replying to your post; we've a new baby > (number 3), and life has been turned upside down. Congratulation for the new born baby (and the other two). I now understand why you have such an interrest in safety. > About units: we would probably be better off to use natural units, > .... the density of water > as 1. Fine for me as the natural system matches the metric one. > The closed-cell foam I mentioned has a density of about > 0.004. I think you mean 0.04. 0.001239 (a third of the value you give) is the density of air at sea level. > You pointed out that if we merely give the swamped boat neutral > buoyancy (0.98 or so), it will float with decks awash, and that makes > self-rescue terribly difficult. > Merely neutral buoyancy is nothing to sneeze at. I have to strongly disagree with you. With a density of 0.98 you are as good as dead. Try to envision your ship in waves, possibly braking ones. Add curents, which are not only a 2 dimentional phenomenon. That is, they also go downwards. I understand the difficulty in finding one or two extra cubic meter for floatting devices but merely neutral boyancy is simply not good enough. the 0.8 value is what I would consider the dangerous limit and I go for even lower density if possible. Let's put numbers on this. Say you boat displaces 5 tons a boyancy of 0.98 would give you an archemedeus thrust of 100 Kg upwards. Peanuts. A density of 0.8 would give you a ton of thrust upward. > Some company makes large, inflatable bags (called Yachtsavers, I > think?) which one inflates in the cabin when the boat is sinking. I > would think that neutral buoyancy plus a couple small airbags would be > a very reasonable system. Even if both bags fail, with neutral ... I agree, the solution looks tempting. Its not as good as 'hard' boyancy but a very good complement. I found this on the internet >>Noticed that Yacht Savers went out of business doing this kind of thing. >>Had a couple of well publicized sinkings, despite installation of the >>device. Now, I'd recommend not buying anything. Build it yourself. 2 or three tractor iner tubes and a second hand diving tank take you very far. You must be carefull to attach the devices solidely and that they should not obstruct passage (would be silly to drown because of one of them blocking the way out). If the boat has some positive boyancy, then the same tubes and an hand ump with a long enough pipe would do the job. not as comfortable or high tech but workable, cheap and low tech (low tech is good). I am curious about the price of those yacht savers, does any one have a price list? >The whole idea is to seal up > unused space, so why not just make any bilge volumes we'd contemplate > foaming into air tanks? Watertight cleanouts would give you the > option of stashing some stuff in them, and let you inspect the inside > of the hull. The tanks could be filled with foam, if that > seemed appropriate. The problem is filling with foam. Foam will absorb water defeating its purpose. Making the bilge a serie (of SEPARATED) small watertight tanks is a possibility but I think it's unrealistic. Keeping rust away is even less realistic. I propose my very low tech, very low price, very likely to be the best solution. Ok what we need is a cheap watertight container that will not rust. Sounds like plastic cola bottles fit the description. there are two types of bottles thick ones and thin ones. I'd go for the thin one as they are very easy to form. some silicon glue before you close the bottle and voila! The only problem is keeping them into place with some sort of netting. > Now that I look, a better bet might be something like the big > contractor's trash pump in this brochure ( > http://www.gormanrupp.com/products/man/conmkt/pdfs/up_01790.pdf ). > The 6 inch pump, powered by the 42hp Wisconsin diesel, is self priming > and can handle 2 5/8 inch solids, at up to 1200 GPM. Something like > that, hooked directly to the main engine, would give you some time to > get some plywood and epoxy on a hole. The positive floatation, > however achieved (i.e., neutral buoyancy and airbags or positive > buoyancy without airbags) would of course give even more time. :-) You are dreaming (As I have) I've had a 6 inch pump on my boat (2 in fact) Let's no understress the fact that the pumps must _absolutely_ be self priming (I made the mistake, twice) The intake must be carefully designed so it can't be obstructed by paper or other floatting debris (there are always plenty of them) This is a very serious matter when you install a pump. Now if you get a hole of some serious importance, say a rip 5 cm (2 inches) wide by 60 cm (2 ft (another nice thing with metrics, you don't have to change unit so often)) then your big fat pump will _not_ keep you afloat. If the boat floats, there is much less stress. Reparations can be made under water. Then I wonder if there is need for big pumps. a small electrical pump for everyday use . 2 serious hand pumps,not the phony ones found on 'fine' yachts and a hink or two. On my boat, it was possible to pump water with the engine pump. Nice to empty the bilge only. > The long longitudinal frames are considerably springier, so a strike >... > hull with only longitudinal framing. Obviously, the idea I had, of > fastening a bulkhead to the longitudinals, stiffens them and might > make things worse instead of better. When we're talking about I don't think attaching transversal frames to the longitudinal frames is a bad idea. a boats motion is not only forward on 2 dimentions. if the wave takes up and down and you meet an object on that trajectory, then the longitudinal frames act like transversal frames when moving forward. Anyhow, It take a lot to punch a hole in 4mm steel. My advice is to not over do anything. if you need a tranversal frame to make a watertight bulkhead do it by any mean otherwise don't bother >Conventional wisdom holds that it's best to keep weight > out of the ends of a boat, anyway. I sailed a 30 tri with a danish friends a few weeks ago. I was steering and he went to the bow to do something (forgot what) The boat was incontrolable with the tiler. > This would give a few cubic feet > of floatation at the bow, and many cubic feet at the stern. You could > get the same effect a lot cheaper by stuffing those areas in the bow > and stern with blue foam board, held in place with cargo nets, The idea is simple and effective, I like it. >but you'd lose the storage space. No free lunch on a boat. >I think > that watching me pump the boat full of water, and then pump it out > again, all without disappearing under the water, would make my wife > feel a lot safer. And she would be absolutely right. After 100000 years of evolution, I'd like to see boats being unsinkable (the opposit being plain stupid except if you are a fish) > I certainly wouldn't hesitate to cut costs on > interior finish to make up for any extra cost in achieving that. I don't think there is any price difference between a safe boat and an unsafe one. Let's resume (my opinions): - watertight bulkheads at the ends or floatation device (nicer name for blue foam). About the blue foam, you can use salvage pieces instead for buying new, just put it together with some wire. Are there any health risk in being in a confined volume where blue foam is present? There also big plastic drums to salvage, 5 litters milk or oil containers, .... - Density of 0.8 or less (Not all the foam has to be sprayed, you can spray the minimum and glue blue foam on top to save money, OSRAM VII has no sprayed foam at all, all blue foam, half the price, check Tony birgas web site) - Filling the bilge with PET bottle - some inner tubes and a hand_and_feet pump - No engine pump - 2 hand pumps made of PVC pipe (cheap, effective and easy to build and reparable anywhere in the world). make them in stainless steel and they will survive the boat. - Twin keels - Keep the boat light It seems to me that there is nothing expensive in the list. Cheers, Nadim, looking forward to see your boat afloat. | 1650|1500|2003-05-27 21:11:05|Michael Casling|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Nadim wrote: Ok what we need is a cheap watertight container that will not rust. Sounds like plastic cola bottles fit the description. there are two types of bottles thick ones and thin ones. I'd go for the thin one as they are very easy to form. some silicon glue before you close the bottle and voila! The only problem is keeping them into place with some sort of netting. If the boat floats, there is much less stress. Reparations can be made under water. Then I wonder if there is need for big pumps. a small electrical pump for everyday use . 2 serious hand pumps,not the phony ones found on 'fine' yachts and a hink or two. On my boat, it was possible to pump water with the engine pump. Nice to empty the bilge only. After 100000 years of evolution, I'd like to see boats being unsinkable (the opposit being plain stupid except if you are a fish) Nadim I like the logic although it has been argued that this is the wrong thinking for steel boats as they do not get holes. Our boat at 7400 pounds requires about 800 bottles but I have not calculated the volume that would take. There is all kinds of places on the boat that they could be put that is not normally being used. Since I did the calculation I have read Dave Gerrs book The Nature of Boats and it seems I do not need as many. I have spoken with folks who have had their boats sink and they were not very pleased. Others including myself have had a boat roll and fill up with water and float and I much prefer that. Our plastic boat will be getting enough buoyancy to float as soon as I get around to it. On the 21 footer that floated it only required foam under the bunks. The hull and deck were cored. I was surprised at how high it floated and after righting it was easy to bale and tow. It would not right itself with the spinnaker still attached and the hull full of water. A little bit more ballast and it would have come up. I added more ballast later. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1651|1500|2003-05-28 03:06:16|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi Michael, Just for the pleasure to argue: On Wednesday 28 May 2003 03:10, Michael Casling wrote: > I like the logic although it has been argued that this is the wrong > thinking for steel boats as they do not get holes. Hmmmmm, I am really intrested in knowing who is the genius that has argued that steel boats do not get holed. IMO, building in steel is putting an extra chance on your side. making the boat unsinkable is guranting that the boat will float. I'd rather have a tupperware that floats than a tungsten (which by the way means heavy(tung) stone(sten)) boat that sinks. > Our boat at 7400 > pounds requires about 800 bottles but I have not calculated the volume > that would take. The bottles were meant as one of the floating devices. Foam, inflating bags, ... are also part of the equation. Water tight bulkheads shouldn't be counted as floatation device by the way and not be integrated in any calculation. I considere theme only extra comfort. > ... >I have read Dave Gerrs book The Nature of Boats and it seems > I do not need as many. Could you please tell us what magic formula you read in the book that could change the mathematics of density. The nature of whatnot with a density over 1 is to sink. > I have spoken with folks who have had their boats > sink and they were not very pleased. sinkable = unpleased (or dead) then I extrpolate that unsikable = pleased or at least sleeping well at night. > Others including myself have had a > boat roll and fill up with water and float and I much prefer that. I am glad you are still here to tell us but there is a big diffrence between rolled and holed. Cheers, Nadim. | 1652|1500|2003-05-28 08:18:59|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Do a search for Cubitainers. Collapsible, rectangular not round, come in several sizes, quite cheap. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "nadim" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Designing for boat safety. > Hi, > On Tuesday 27 May 2003 23:34, nelstomlinson wrote: > > Sorry about the long delay in replying to your post; we've a new baby > > (number 3), and life has been turned upside down. > Congratulation for the new born baby (and the other two). I now understand > why you have such an interrest in safety. > > > About units: we would probably be better off to use natural units, > > .... the density of water > > as 1. > Fine for me as the natural system matches the metric one. > > > The closed-cell foam I mentioned has a density of about > > 0.004. > I think you mean 0.04. > > 0.001239 (a third of the value you give) is the density of air at sea > level. > > > You pointed out that if we merely give the swamped boat neutral > > buoyancy (0.98 or so), it will float with decks awash, and that makes > > self-rescue terribly difficult. > > Merely neutral buoyancy is nothing to sneeze at. > I have to strongly disagree with you. With a density of 0.98 you are as > good as dead. Try to envision your ship in waves, possibly braking ones. > Add curents, which are not only a 2 dimentional phenomenon. That is, they > also go downwards. I understand the difficulty in finding one or two extra > cubic meter for floatting devices but merely neutral boyancy is simply not > good enough. the 0.8 value is what I would consider the dangerous limit > and I go for even lower density if possible. Let's put numbers on this. > Say you boat displaces 5 tons a boyancy of 0.98 would give you an > archemedeus thrust of 100 Kg upwards. Peanuts. A density of 0.8 would give > you a ton of thrust upward. > > > Some company makes large, inflatable bags (called Yachtsavers, I > > think?) which one inflates in the cabin when the boat is sinking. I > > would think that neutral buoyancy plus a couple small airbags would be > > a very reasonable system. Even if both bags fail, with neutral > ... > I agree, the solution looks tempting. Its not as good as 'hard' boyancy but > a very good complement. > > I found this on the internet > > >>Noticed that Yacht Savers went out of business doing this kind of thing. > >>Had a couple of well publicized sinkings, despite installation of the > >>device. > > Now, I'd recommend not buying anything. Build it yourself. 2 or three > tractor iner tubes and a second hand diving tank take you very far. You > must be carefull to attach the devices solidely and that they should not > obstruct passage (would be silly to drown because of one of them blocking > the way out). If the boat has some positive boyancy, then the same tubes > and an hand ump with a long enough pipe would do the job. not as > comfortable or high tech but workable, cheap and low tech (low tech is > good). I am curious about the price of those yacht savers, does any one > have a price list? > > >The whole idea is to seal up > > unused space, so why not just make any bilge volumes we'd contemplate > > foaming into air tanks? Watertight cleanouts would give you the > > option of stashing some stuff in them, and let you inspect the inside > > of the hull. The tanks could be filled with foam, if that > > seemed appropriate. > The problem is filling with foam. Foam will absorb water defeating its > purpose. Making the bilge a serie (of SEPARATED) small watertight tanks is > a possibility but I think it's unrealistic. Keeping rust away is even less > realistic. I propose my very low tech, very low price, very likely to be > the best solution. Ok what we need is a cheap watertight container that > will not rust. Sounds like plastic cola bottles fit the description. there > are two types of bottles thick ones and thin ones. I'd go for the thin one > as they are very easy to form. some silicon glue before you close the > bottle and voila! The only problem is keeping them into place with some > sort of netting. > > > Now that I look, a better bet might be something like the big > > contractor's trash pump in this brochure ( > > http://www.gormanrupp.com/products/man/conmkt/pdfs/up_01790.pdf ). > > The 6 inch pump, powered by the 42hp Wisconsin diesel, is self priming > > and can handle 2 5/8 inch solids, at up to 1200 GPM. Something like > > that, hooked directly to the main engine, would give you some time to > > get some plywood and epoxy on a hole. The positive floatation, > > however achieved (i.e., neutral buoyancy and airbags or positive > > buoyancy without airbags) would of course give even more time. > > :-) You are dreaming (As I have) I've had a 6 inch pump on my boat (2 in > fact) Let's no understress the fact that the pumps must _absolutely_ be > self priming (I made the mistake, twice) The intake must be carefully > designed so it can't be obstructed by paper or other floatting debris > (there are always plenty of them) This is a very serious matter when you > install a pump. Now if you get a hole of some serious importance, say a > rip 5 cm (2 inches) wide by 60 cm (2 ft (another nice thing with metrics, > you don't have to change unit so often)) then your big fat pump will > _not_ keep you afloat. > > If the boat floats, there is much less stress. Reparations can be made > under water. Then I wonder if there is need for big pumps. a small > electrical pump for everyday use . 2 serious hand pumps,not the phony ones > found on 'fine' yachts and a hink or two. > > On my boat, it was possible to pump water with the engine pump. Nice to > empty the bilge only. > > > The long longitudinal frames are considerably springier, so a strike > >... > > hull with only longitudinal framing. Obviously, the idea I had, of > > fastening a bulkhead to the longitudinals, stiffens them and might > > make things worse instead of better. When we're talking about > I don't think attaching transversal frames to the longitudinal frames is a > bad idea. a boats motion is not only forward on 2 dimentions. if the wave > takes up and down and you meet an object on that trajectory, then the > longitudinal frames act like transversal frames when moving forward. > Anyhow, It take a lot to punch a hole in 4mm steel. My advice is to not > over do anything. if you need a tranversal frame to make a watertight > bulkhead do it by any mean otherwise don't bother > > >Conventional wisdom holds that it's best to keep weight > > out of the ends of a boat, anyway. > I sailed a 30 tri with a danish friends a few weeks ago. I was steering and > he went to the bow to do something (forgot what) The boat was > incontrolable with the tiler. > > > This would give a few cubic feet > > of floatation at the bow, and many cubic feet at the stern. You could > > get the same effect a lot cheaper by stuffing those areas in the bow > > and stern with blue foam board, held in place with cargo nets, > The idea is simple and effective, I like it. > > >but you'd lose the storage space. > No free lunch on a boat. > > >I think > > that watching me pump the boat full of water, and then pump it out > > again, all without disappearing under the water, would make my wife > > feel a lot safer. > And she would be absolutely right. After 100000 years of evolution, I'd > like to see boats being unsinkable (the opposit being plain stupid except > if you are a fish) > > > I certainly wouldn't hesitate to cut costs on > > interior finish to make up for any extra cost in achieving that. > I don't think there is any price difference between a safe boat and an > unsafe one. > > Let's resume (my opinions): > - watertight bulkheads at the ends or floatation device (nicer name for > blue foam). About the blue foam, you can use salvage pieces instead for > buying new, just put it together with some wire. Are there any health risk > in being in a confined volume where blue foam is present? There also big > plastic drums to salvage, 5 litters milk or oil containers, .... > > - Density of 0.8 or less (Not all the foam has to be sprayed, you can spray > the minimum and glue blue foam on top to save money, OSRAM VII has no > sprayed foam at all, all blue foam, half the price, check Tony birgas web > site) > > - Filling the bilge with PET bottle > > - some inner tubes and a hand_and_feet pump > > - No engine pump > > - 2 hand pumps made of PVC pipe (cheap, effective and easy to build and > reparable anywhere in the world). make them in stainless steel and they > will survive the boat. > > - Twin keels > > - Keep the boat light > > It seems to me that there is nothing expensive in the list. > > Cheers, > Nadim, looking forward to see your boat afloat. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1653|1500|2003-05-28 08:58:45|batsondbelfrey|Re: Designing for boat safety.|A comment on overall density of a boat with built in buoyancy: I read that in a storm, the upper layers of water have quite a few air bubbles in them, and the density of this bubble-filled water is a bit less than one. A boat with barely neutral buoyancy in still water might float somewhat below the surface (where there are fewer or no bubbles), assuming that water pressure doesn't compress your foam or bottles to the point where the overall density goes below 1. Also, when using bottles for buoyancy, take into account that water surging inside the hull may damage some bottles. Bottles may go brittle with age, or a few years of just a little bit of motion in a seaway may chafe through some of them. It seems like a good idea to have a healthy reserve. Regards Robert Biegler| 1654|1612|2003-05-28 11:52:10|nelstomlinson|Re: engines & generators|Yes, quantum effects don't scale. The macro-scale things where we use them are things like tunnel diodes where smaller is better. But this doesn't seem to be that sort of thing. The vaccuume energy, if there is such a thing, is certainly a quantum phenomenon. The math he's spouting looks like classical physics. I remember Maxwell's equations, space current, Poynting's vector, and so on. Lorentz's gauge I really don't remember. My education was strictly classical, engineering physics. I'm going to try to dig out my dictionary and E&M books and look a bit deeper. I'm curious. This fellow seems to be saying that it's possible to get power from an open circuit, and that that would be obvious if only Lorentz hadn't obscured it by neatening up Maxwell's work, in a foolish quest for symmetry. As I said, it isn't certainly impossible, but I wouldn't put off buying a generator just because I've learned of this. If I manage to make time to learn anything about this, I'll pass it on. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The problem is more likely in manufacturing the device. Quantum physics allows for many effects that appear to defy common sense. However, a quantum event that works at sub-microscopic levels doesn't work as the scale is increased. > > Thus, while it is quite possible that a quantum event could be harnessed to create something from nothing - the energy available is extremely small. If you try to increase the size of the machine to make something useful, the quantum effect is lost. If you try to make billions of these machine to create something useful, the costs exceed that of burning oil. > > greg > > ps: new site - some double and triple dart origami boats: > > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: nelstomlinson > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:58 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: engines & generators > > > Hi, Colin, > > I glanced at some of the materials explaining the ``motionless > generator''. The idea of vaccuume energy , and the idea of tapping > it, aren't new. The idea that it is feasible does seem to be new. > > I'm not a physicist, and I have difficulty reading some of the math in > the papers, so take what I say here with a grain of salt. > > I believe that the idea of vaccuume energy is a consequence of one of > several competing theories (can't remember which!). I think that the > way everyone else has dealt with it was by positing that the energy > was ``destroyed'' as fast as it was ``created''. I.e., that the energy > was an accounting fiction, and not ``real''. This fellow seems to > have found another explanation, which makes it real. I'm not really > competent to judge his explanation. My guess is that this is not > obviously impossible, but rather doubtful. I suppose that if this > turns out to be real, it will be strong emperical evidence for > theories which include vaccuume energy. It will also be bad news for > OPEC. > > He claims to have a US patent on this nifty novelty. The US patent > system is severely broken; they'll grant a patent for any obvious > thing. There is, for example, a patent issued to a 7 year old for a > > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT > O1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm > &r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='6,368,227'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,368,227&RS=PN/6,368,227 > > method of swinging (on a playground swing). Except for eternal motion > machines, they don't require a working model. This doesn't claim to > be an eternal motion machine, so the existence of a patent doesn't > imply that this will actually work. If it does work, the inventor > will have a monopoly on the method in the US for around 20 years. I > predict that this (if real) will be commonly used starting in about 20 > years. > > The author claims to have gotten an article on this published in a > peer-reviewed physics journal. That impresses me far more than the > patent. That suggests that he may not be a crackpot, or at least that > the cracks in his pot haven't let quite all the sense leak out. On > the other hand, the letters on his website seem to me to show all the > symptoms of crackpottery: claims of grandiose discovery, rejection by > by the mainstream, claims that his work is being suppressed ... usw. > If it weren't for that publication, I'd dismiss this out of hand. > > In summary, that second link seems far more likely to be valuable. > > Nels > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > > Could anyone with a built 31 or 36 hull advise me of the height > > available for use under the cockpit footwell. I'm considering the > > installation of an up-an-over back-to-front engine installation > (poor > > man's 'V' drive) in that location, to keep the cabin completely > > clear. If it looks feasible, then I can be getting on with this > > whilst waiting for the plans and steel to arrive. Thanks. > > > > > > Some years ago there was an article in the august journal > Scientific > > American demonstrating the power of pyramidal stuctures to (amongst > > other things) sharpen blunt razor blades. This article is still > being > > quoted by some new age 'experts' as 'proof' of forces beyond our > > comprehension. What many people failed to spot at the time (and > > since) was that the article was written on April 1st. > > > > So - with this in mind, you may care to take a look at MEG - the > > Motionless Electromagnetic Generator at: > > http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm If it works, then it would > solve > > the cruising man's engine and fuel supply problems in one hit. Of > > course it might just be a sophisticated spoof .... > > > > > > A more down-to-earth device for charging your batteries, with more > > efficiency than shown by Brent in his book (same methods, but > > different motor) can be found at: > > http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_motor_convert.html > > > > As it's a mains motor (with a simple conversion), it hits battery > > charging voltages at around 80 rpm. At 400 rpm it generates well > in > > excess of 5 amps - sounds good for a towed prop (or your existing > > prop allowed to rotate ?), and for a low rpm wind generator ? > > > > I'm in the process of making a small one - will keep you posted. > > > > There are also (free) plans available for making a pancake style > > alternator which, if scaled down, would be very similar to > commercial > > yachtie generators. > > > > Colin > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1655|1655|2003-05-28 13:46:11|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: - pictures|I'm starting to post some of the pictures we've taken in 20 years of cruising the Pacific and Asia. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Pictures.htm Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1656|1500|2003-05-28 15:21:56|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi Robert, On Wednesday 28 May 2003 14:58, batsondbelfrey wrote: > ... > in a storm, the upper layers of water have quite a few air > bubbles in them, and the density of this bubble-filled water is a > bit less than one. You are absolutely right. The same goes for a man over board, in a storm, spray is real danger. it's possible to drawn in spray. advaced life vest incorporate a spray hood. >Bottles may go brittle with age, or a few years of just a little bit of > motion in a seaway may chafe through some of them. And quite right again. I think it will take quite a long time for the bottle to become brittle. The enemy is sun and UV, not to much of that in the bilge. The chafe can also be a problem specialy with the think bottle. I think it would make sense to fix them with foam which itself ads to the floatability. Try to cencentrate the maximum of the floats at the bottom of the boat and attach them properly Keeping the boat light is a good idea, I don't keep a list but: - closed cell mattrases (not lighter bu floats) - a plastic tool box instead for a metal one (doesn't rust either). - a tool set that doesn't weight a ton - no more than the adequate amount of batteries - an engine that doesn't weight too much - etc... add you own Nadim. | 1657|1657|2003-05-28 15:24:07|nadim|Engine|I think it would be ecological and economical to marinize a car engine for a sail boat. I don't know for the american side of the atlantic, but mercedes produces a somal turbo disel engine that is fit in the cars branded 'smart'. I think the output is 25 Kw, more than enough for a 10m boat. What are your experiences? Nadim| 1658|1500|2003-05-28 16:40:36|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Designing for boat safety.|I've found that the best device to prevent sinking is an audible alarm hooked to a float switch in the bilge. Place a solid state siren inside the boat, and another at the mast head. The same sirens can also be used as part of a burglar alarm. A mast head alarm is very handy while you are ashore, if only to alert your neighbors that something is wrong. We have hit may things over the years, including running up on reefs, and none have done more than put a small dent in the steel. By far the most likely cause of sinking is a failed thru hull. An unsinkable small steel cruising boat requires compromises to the point that most sailors and crew will not be happy living in the boat. At best you will be almost guaranteed to be a single hander. After all, isn't a good solution that gets you sailing better than a perfect solution that keeps you at the dock? I would not spend too much time on this issue. There are lots of hazards and risks sailing, of which sinking is only a small part of the picture. Experience, care, and seamanship will go a lot further in keeping you safe than an unsinkable hull. Like the weak link in the chain, it isn't the best feature of your boat that keeps you safe, it is the worst feature that puts you at risk. It has been my experience that rarely does any single failure endanger the yacht. It almost always involves two or more failures that combine in an unexpected way to place you at risk. For example: the boat sunk because you forgot to turn off a thru hull, and didn't bother to replace a rusty hose clamp, and didn't bother to clean the bilge strainer. No single one of these would have sunk the boat, but together it was only a matter of time. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones ----- Original Message ----- From: nadim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Designing for boat safety. Hi Robert, On Wednesday 28 May 2003 14:58, batsondbelfrey wrote: > ... > in a storm, the upper layers of water have quite a few air > bubbles in them, and the density of this bubble-filled water is a > bit less than one. You are absolutely right. The same goes for a man over board, in a storm, spray is real danger. it's possible to drawn in spray. advaced life vest incorporate a spray hood. >Bottles may go brittle with age, or a few years of just a little bit of > motion in a seaway may chafe through some of them. And quite right again. I think it will take quite a long time for the bottle to become brittle. The enemy is sun and UV, not to much of that in the bilge. The chafe can also be a problem specialy with the think bottle. I think it would make sense to fix them with foam which itself ads to the floatability. Try to cencentrate the maximum of the floats at the bottom of the boat and attach them properly Keeping the boat light is a good idea, I don't keep a list but: - closed cell mattrases (not lighter bu floats) - a plastic tool box instead for a metal one (doesn't rust either). - a tool set that doesn't weight a ton - no more than the adequate amount of batteries - an engine that doesn't weight too much - etc... add you own Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1659|1500|2003-05-28 16:47:31|sae140|Re: Designing for boat safety.|> > You pointed out that if we merely give the swamped boat neutral > > buoyancy (0.98 or so), it will float with decks awash, and that > > makes self-rescue terribly difficult. > > Merely neutral buoyancy is nothing to sneeze at. Neutral buoyancy is nowhere near good enough for the recovery of a flooded yacht. Exact neutral buoyancy on a sailing boat implies that the mast tip will be just breaking the surface, with your beautiful Origami hull some 30-odd feet below. You need neutral buoyancy 'plus' the weight of the mast and rigging, 'plus' the weight of the hull above the decks, unless the hull is sealed-off like a submarine (which is what it has become, of course), and your port-lights are capable of withstanding some outward pressure. But - if your hull is closed up tight - how do you intend getting the water out ? And - bear in mind that *everything* has seawater swimming around it - including all your electrics .... unless your hull has watertight compartments of course, which are not very practical on small vessels. With the decks upwards clear of the water, you might just stand a chance using manual pumps, given enough time and a kind sea - and providing the hole which caused the flooding has been fixed well. Considering that the hulls discussed on this forum are around 6-9 tons, then I'd suggest you'd need (neutral+2) = 8-11 tons of buoyancy installed to stand any sort of a chance of self-recovery. And that's a lot of plastic bottles. Bearing in mind that about a third of your displacement results from keel ballast, I'd have thought that a method of quickly dumping this ballast in an emergency is highly desirable, and possibly practical providing the ballast is housed in detachable keel bulbs, or torpedoes. The ability to remove such a large proportion of the combined hull weight might also prove useful at other times. However, this flies in the face of Brent's K.I.S.S. approach, so personally I'd resign myself to the idea that steel boats will sink when flooded and do everything humanly possible to prevent their flooding in the first place. Colin "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea."| 1660|1500|2003-05-28 19:18:38|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi Colin, On Wednesday 28 May 2003 22:47, sae140 wrote: > Considering that the hulls discussed on this forum are around 6-9 > tons, then I'd suggest you'd need (neutral+2) = 8-11 tons of buoyancy > installed to stand any sort of a chance of self-recovery. Since I am not to build an origami boat, I am missing some information about the boats. you quote 8 tons. Is that the displacement of the origami boat you intend to build? >And that's > a lot of plastic bottles. Plastic bottles where just mean as one of the solutions, specificaly for placement into the bilges. The foamming would provide the biggest part of the floatation. > Bearing in mind that about a third of your displacement results from > keel ballast, I'd have thought that a method of quickly dumping this > ballast in an emergency is highly desirable, and possibly practical > providing the ballast is housed in detachable keel bulbs, or > torpedoes. The ability to remove such a large proportion of the > combined hull weight might also prove useful at other times. I have to strongly disagree with you. As much as I understand the logic behind your idea (which I consider right) as much as I don't see any practical solution to implement the idea. You must design a balast that can be instantly release from wherever you are on the boat, whatever time of the day or night and sea conditions. Jamming is no option here. The system still needs to work properly as a keel/ballast system. The system itself, if feasible, would add weight to the boat. I am against the very principle of having to dump a part of the boat to allow the other part to survive. If you dump your ballast and get rolled over, what is going to right you up? in the case of survival, you get a very unsatisfactory sail boat that can't handle any power. Worst is the case where you dump the ballast in haste to just realize that you shouldn't have because the situation wasn't all that bad after all (just compare it with the frightening number of people abandoning a sound ship for a swimming ring (life boat)). My KISS method calls for a boat that doesn't need any high tech solution and that doesn't even need any action from the crew. I do not dismiss your idea because of the logic but because of the involved procedure it requieres to be put into action. Positive boyancy, is not a simple matter but it's, IMO, the most simple and sound solution for boat survival. > "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea." I'd appreciate the quote if I was an 18th century english man trying to prove my valor by confronting with danger. That kind of thinking of from another age where loose of life wasn't all that important. I value my crew and own life highly and if there are dangers, then I'll wait. And if danger is always present, then I'll stay at home. the quote is just plain silly. (no offence intended, but you know that hopefully) Positive boyancy, or any other solution for making the safety higher on a ship, is not a matter of waiting for danger to pass but a matter of evaluation of the danger and implementing a solution to eliminate it at the source. It's a positive, dynamic process. You do look on both sides of the road before you cross it, don't you? Cheers, Nadim. | 1661|1661|2003-05-28 19:25:50|Michael Casling|Floatation|I was going to reply to the points posed by Nadim but the computer with the saved message just went up in smoke. In Dave Gerrs book he has a scale for calculating the amount of foam required for half submerged floatation and offers the formula for fiberglass as 1 cubic foot of foam for each 45 pounds of glass. For iron or steel 1 cubic foot for each 32 pounds. lead 1 cubic foot for each 30 pounds. If the engine and keel are 3400 pounds of iron and steel we need 106 cubic feet and if we assume that the rest of the boat is fiberglass ( not counting the wood etc. ) we need another 80 cubic feet. 186 cubic feet total. I have not done an accurate measurement but the free room at the stern, under the cockpit storage, under the quarter berth and under the berths in the pointy end would probably be enough space. None of this space is being used at the moment. Change the foam cushions to air cushions and I think the thing will float, in fact I know it will. Now if the boat were the same volume but built in steel you would require more foam but no more area. I am not knocking steel boats just stating the obvious. I met a guy who had a boat called Snow White 2, I asked him what happened to Snow White 1, got hit by a whale and sank in less than 3 minutes he said. A whale a container, I do not know if that would bang a hole in a steel boat. I have also read accounts of sailors who have survived because there boats floated. I have had the experience, an upside down boat with the hatch boards not in place and leaking lockers is a lot like a holed boat full of water. the only difference I can see is the mast is pointing the wrong way. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1662|1500|2003-05-28 19:35:06|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi greg, On Wednesday 28 May 2003 22:41, info@... wrote: > I've found that the best device to prevent sinking is an audible alarm > hooked to a float switch in the bilge. a very sensible idea but it just makes the symptomes more obvious (which is very good) but it doesn't provide a solution. > By far the > most likely cause of sinking is a failed thru hull. then I'd say that no through hull should be placed bellow heeled water line. Why would a throught hull ever need to be placed under the water line?? > An unsinkable small steel cruising boat requires compromises to the > point that most sailors and crew will not be happy living in the boat. How do you come to that conclusion? > At best you will be almost guaranteed to be a single hander. Do you really think that once you have proved to your wife that the boat will safely cary her and her children safely, she would decide to stay at home? > After all, isn't a good solution that gets you sailing better than a > perfect solution that keeps you at the dock? You are twisting the discussion. Is a good solution that gets you dead better than staying at home? (I can twist too ;-) > it isn't the best feature of your boat that keeps you safe, it is > the worst feature that puts you at risk. Agreed. The worst feature for a boat is to be sinkable. > It has been my experience that rarely does any single failure endanger > the yacht. It almost always involves two or more failures that combine > in an unexpected way to place you at risk. For example: the boat sunk > because you forgot to turn off a thru hull, and didn't bother to replace > a rusty hose clamp, and didn't bother to clean the bilge strainer. No > single one of these would have sunk the boat, but together it was only a > matter of time. Right, so eliminating all the sources of potential problem should keep us afloat and happy. For the example you gave, I'd suggest no underwater thru hull, stainless or platic clamp. and a well designed strainer (as I pointed in a previous mail). Note that all the dangers you cite become of much less importance if the boat can't be sunk. Cheers, Nadim. | 1663|1661|2003-05-28 19:49:29|nadim|Re: Floatation|Hi Michael, On Thursday 29 May 2003 01:28, Michael Casling wrote: >In Dave Gerrs book he has a > scale for calculating the amount of foam required for half submerged > floatation and offers the formula for fiberglass as 1 cubic foot of > foam for each 45 pounds of glass. For iron or steel 1 cubic foot for > each 32 pounds. lead 1 cubic foot for each 30 pounds. We are talking of a total density of less than 0.5 here. way to go. > I have not > done an accurate measurement but the free room at the stern, under the > cockpit storage, under the quarter berth and under the berths in the > pointy end would probably be enough space. I like you positive spirit. There is a lot of room in a boat for foam or other artifacts, we just need to think about it. I'd recommend not putting the floatation at the ends but in the bottom of the boat (for monohulls). I may be the only one having that problem but I sleep better when I feel safe. We anchored 100m from a reef, the wind stated to blow hard and the waves forming. we were anchored on double anchors, 40 KG and 80 Kg each with 6 meter of 3/4 chain and 1 1/2 nylon rope. I could have played guitar on the rope for all the tension in it. with all that arsenal I didn't sleep very well that night. Cheers, Nadim | 1664|1655|2003-05-28 21:39:26|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: - pictures|Greg, The new 55 footer you've done with the three chines is interesting -- are there any being built on the BC coast currently? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] - pictures > I'm starting to post some of the pictures we've taken in 20 years of cruising the Pacific and Asia. > > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Pictures.htm > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > | 1665|1661|2003-05-28 22:05:13|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Floatation|One of the neatest photos I have ever seen ( about 15 years ago) was a 40 foot steel boat that had be broadsided by a freighter traveling some 15 or 20 knots. The boat was bent like a banana. The dent in the side was 10 feet wide and 7 feet DEEP! The guy sailed it home without assistance. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "nadim" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Floatation > Hi Michael, > On Thursday 29 May 2003 01:28, Michael Casling wrote: > >In Dave Gerrs book he has a > > scale for calculating the amount of foam required for half submerged > > floatation and offers the formula for fiberglass as 1 cubic foot of > > foam for each 45 pounds of glass. For iron or steel 1 cubic foot for > > each 32 pounds. lead 1 cubic foot for each 30 pounds. > We are talking of a total density of less than 0.5 here. way to go. > > > I have not > > done an accurate measurement but the free room at the stern, under the > > cockpit storage, under the quarter berth and under the berths in the > > pointy end would probably be enough space. > I like you positive spirit. There is a lot of room in a boat for foam or > other artifacts, we just need to think about it. I'd recommend not putting > the floatation at the ends but in the bottom of the boat (for monohulls). > > I may be the only one having that problem but I sleep better when I feel > safe. We anchored 100m from a reef, the wind stated to blow hard and the > waves forming. we were anchored on double anchors, 40 KG and 80 Kg each > with 6 meter of 3/4 chain and 1 1/2 nylon rope. I could have played guitar > on the rope for all the tension in it. with all that arsenal I didn't > sleep very well that night. > > Cheers, > Nadim > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1666|1655|2003-05-29 00:33:22|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: - pictures|Hi Alex, We have two 50 foot double dart alloy boats sailing. One 40 foot double dart steel under construction, and one 60 foot triple dart steel under construction. The 55 foot triple dart alloy is in the final design stages, scheduled to begin construction in June 2003. We think origami construction is a great concept, with lots of room for growth. We are pretty excited by the shapes we've been able to generate. I'm back in Canada for awhile, so I'll be keeping the group informed of our progress. We are looking for people wanting to build some new designs. More information is available at: http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55.htm greg elliott yacht lazy bones ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex and Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] - pictures Greg, The new 55 footer you've done with the three chines is interesting -- are there any being built on the BC coast currently? Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] - pictures > I'm starting to post some of the pictures we've taken in 20 years of cruising the Pacific and Asia. > > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Pictures.htm > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1667|1661|2003-05-29 02:27:34|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Floatation|regards the banana boat: We were docked alongside the boat in 1984 at the south end of SF bay. As I recall the owner was French. He built the boat in Oz, after his multi-hull was stolen. He was run down in the North Pacific. He was convinced the collision was deliberate, from a Russian Whaler, as GreenPeace was active in the area at the time. I don't recall the boat name or his name after all these years. The damage was unbelievable. It was his experience that convinced me to sell the FG production yacht I had sailed down the coast from Vancouver and buy a custom steel yacht built in BC, by Ron Pearson. I still have the boat today - the Lazy Bones. It is moored in Malaysia, still in great shape, and Ron is my partner in designing and building origami yachts. Our first origami pattern was designed from the lines of the Lazy Bones. I can't begin to count the number of times the steel construction has saved my life and that of my family in the years we have bumped across the Pacific and SE Asia. My only complaints are that steel does require a fair amount a diligence to maintain, and that the weight of steel limits somewhat the performance and cargo carrying capacity of the boat. This can be overcome somewhat by seamanship. However, it cannot be ignored. This only truly became an issue on one occasion, in which I would have paid any amount of money to be off the boat in a particularly nasty storm, where the performance of the boat was not sufficient under sail to cope with the conditions. We were able to save the vessel by using the engine to provide extra power on the face of some truly frightening breaking seas, and avoid being overwhelmed. We simply could not accelerate fast enough under sail alone, and did not have enough ballast to carry more sail. Whether any other building material would have performed better is unknown. A similar boat to ours in FG was rolled down, ports stove in, with serious damage done to both the vessel and the crew. Our better outcome may simply be a result of the decisions made. They decided to heave to. We decided that the breaking seas were too dangerous for that course of action, and decided to run before it. I did feel very strongly at the time that with a higher performance boat I would not have needed to use the engine. It is probably this experience that most brought home to me that a strong hull can also have drawbacks. You have to keep a careful eye on the weight. As our family grew, we were limited most by the amount we could carry. For those with the budget, alloy may be worth investigating. You can carry quite a bit more for a given size of boat. For us lesser mortals, steel is real. I will close with this observation. Over the years a reliable engine has saved me more times than a strong hull. However, I wouldn't be without either. The few times you need it, a strong hull more than pays for itself. greg elliott yacht lazy bones ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary H. Lucas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Floatation One of the neatest photos I have ever seen ( about 15 years ago) was a 40 foot steel boat that had be broadsided by a freighter traveling some 15 or 20 knots. The boat was bent like a banana. The dent in the side was 10 feet wide and 7 feet DEEP! The guy sailed it home without assistance. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "nadim" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Floatation > Hi Michael, > On Thursday 29 May 2003 01:28, Michael Casling wrote: > >In Dave Gerrs book he has a > > scale for calculating the amount of foam required for half submerged > > floatation and offers the formula for fiberglass as 1 cubic foot of > > foam for each 45 pounds of glass. For iron or steel 1 cubic foot for > > each 32 pounds. lead 1 cubic foot for each 30 pounds. > We are talking of a total density of less than 0.5 here. way to go. > > > I have not > > done an accurate measurement but the free room at the stern, under the > > cockpit storage, under the quarter berth and under the berths in the > > pointy end would probably be enough space. > I like you positive spirit. There is a lot of room in a boat for foam or > other artifacts, we just need to think about it. I'd recommend not putting > the floatation at the ends but in the bottom of the boat (for monohulls). > > I may be the only one having that problem but I sleep better when I feel > safe. We anchored 100m from a reef, the wind stated to blow hard and the > waves forming. we were anchored on double anchors, 40 KG and 80 Kg each > with 6 meter of 3/4 chain and 1 1/2 nylon rope. I could have played guitar > on the rope for all the tension in it. with all that arsenal I didn't > sleep very well that night. > > Cheers, > Nadim > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1668|1661|2003-05-29 06:10:57|nadim|Greg's Design|Hi greg, On Thursday 29 May 2003 08:29, info@... wrote: > ... > I will close with this observation. Over the years a reliable engine > has saved me more times than a strong hull. However, I wouldn't be > without either. The few times you need it, a strong hull more than pays > for itself. Thanks for your input greg. Now you may have noticed that the people on this list are the "down to earth" type. Not many designers around (even Brent is too busy sailing (lucky ...)). So let's stop turning around the honey jar: - You build software (oh what a wondrfull job (I do too :-)) but you design boats for _fun_ (as stated on your web site). - How many of your boats have been build? When were they build? How many in aluminium? - How many still exist? - How much do the plan cost and what sizes are available.? - What steel thickness? metric or imperial? - What kind of framming? - What do you plan contain? - What is the typical build time? - What is the dislacement and dimention of the boats? - What safety feature do your plan include (see remark bellow)? - You sailed extensively in SEA, what features can be found to cope with heat (ie where are the opening, how many of them, ..) - Do you have flush decks design? (which IMHO make no sense at all) Please excuse my inquisitive tone but I have a hundreds questions (I think other do too) and we can save a lot of time by cutting on some useless political corectness. I'd be pleased if other member of the list helped us with their questions. A propos safety: Something caught my eye, something good. In the picture on your web site we can see a (somewhat rusty (see bellow)) hull with steps welded to it. I realy like that feature and it's actualy the first time I see it (read about it in a french book about safety (green nauticus, a great book)). The rusty hull: we now and then restart the discussion about pre primed steel or not, how to blast the hull, what to put on it to avoid rust and so on. You seem to have a lot of experience here, could you please share it with us. You also seem to dislike the amount of maintenance a steel hull implies, could you please tell us how much maintenance is done on your boat? and at what cost? Cheers, Nadim | 1669|1500|2003-05-29 06:17:06|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi Nadim, There are many risks to the captain and crew of an unsinkable boat. Having the dinghy motor quit is one of the biggest if the wind and sea carry you away from land and your boat. Weather, shipping, lack of sleep, depression, disease, sea sickness, alcoholism, boredom, stress, fire, loss overboard, falls, knock downs, capsize, equipment failures, etc. etc. Not to mention traffic ashore in strange ports and predators human and otherwise. Add to this human error, laziness, carelessness, inattention, wishful thinking and bad luck. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time does happen. Sailing is inherently risky. You can manage the risk, but you can't eliminate it. It sounds a bit to me like you see sinking as a risk out of proportion to all the others. Sinking is not a big risk is a well built and maintained boat steel boat. That is one of the big attractions of steel. Sinkings do happen, but usually there is only a loss of life when coupled with a storm. Having an unsinkable boat, that is awash in a storm sea will not save you. You and everything not nailed down will be swept out of the hull by the surge. There is more space in a small apartment than there is in a big boat. This lack of room causes stress and makes people unhappy. It is a big reason cruises to end prematurely. It isn't the same as sinking, but the voyage is over just the same. The Lazy Bones fully loaded with crew and stores for 6 months weighs approximately 30,000 lbs. That is a volume of 500 cubic feet to float the boat. It is a huge volume. A cylinder 6 feet across by 30 feet long to fit inside a 39 foot boat. Different boats will give different results, but the general problem is the same. It takes a huge amount of the living space inside of a cruising sailboat to keep the boat afloat. If you fill this with foam or something similar, there will be way less room to live. Your risk of sinking goes down, but your risk from stress goes up. Strange story but true. We had one gal so unhappy with sailing that she scuttled the boat on the way to Sri Lanka. She and her husband were picked up be another boat they were traveling in convoy with. She then went over the side when no one was watching. They searched for her without result. When they got to Sri Lanka she was already there, having been picked out of the water by a passing fishboat. The boat wasn't unsinkable, but no one was lost. If it was unsinkable she probably would have burned it. To make a small steel boat unsinkable and still have enough room to live there is one "practical" solution that I am aware of. Watertight bulkheads dividing the hull into 3 sections. It makes ventilation and access difficult, but if you want to have it, this still leaves enough volume inside the boat to live in. I've seen it done in a 36 footer. Workshop and storage in front. Aft cabin with access thru the cockpit. Engine under the cockpit. Galley, head, convertible settee, and pipe berth(s) in main salon. A bit tight, but workable. A good compromise that still leaves lots of living space. greg elliott yacht lazy bones ----- Original Message ----- From: nadim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Designing for boat safety. Hi greg, On Wednesday 28 May 2003 22:41, info@... wrote: > I've found that the best device to prevent sinking is an audible alarm > hooked to a float switch in the bilge. a very sensible idea but it just makes the symptomes more obvious (which is very good) but it doesn't provide a solution. > By far the > most likely cause of sinking is a failed thru hull. then I'd say that no through hull should be placed bellow heeled water line. Why would a throught hull ever need to be placed under the water line?? > An unsinkable small steel cruising boat requires compromises to the > point that most sailors and crew will not be happy living in the boat. How do you come to that conclusion? > At best you will be almost guaranteed to be a single hander. Do you really think that once you have proved to your wife that the boat will safely cary her and her children safely, she would decide to stay at home? > After all, isn't a good solution that gets you sailing better than a > perfect solution that keeps you at the dock? You are twisting the discussion. Is a good solution that gets you dead better than staying at home? (I can twist too ;-) > it isn't the best feature of your boat that keeps you safe, it is > the worst feature that puts you at risk. Agreed. The worst feature for a boat is to be sinkable. > It has been my experience that rarely does any single failure endanger > the yacht. It almost always involves two or more failures that combine > in an unexpected way to place you at risk. For example: the boat sunk > because you forgot to turn off a thru hull, and didn't bother to replace > a rusty hose clamp, and didn't bother to clean the bilge strainer. No > single one of these would have sunk the boat, but together it was only a > matter of time. Right, so eliminating all the sources of potential problem should keep us afloat and happy. For the example you gave, I'd suggest no underwater thru hull, stainless or platic clamp. and a well designed strainer (as I pointed in a previous mail). Note that all the dangers you cite become of much less importance if the boat can't be sunk. Cheers, Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1670|1500|2003-05-29 06:58:43|nadim|Re: Designing for boat safety.|Hi Greg, On Thursday 29 May 2003 12:18, info@... wrote: > There are many risks to the captain and crew of an unsinkable boat. > Having the dinghy motor quit is one of the biggest if the wind and sea > carry you away from land and your boat. Weather, shipping, lack of > sleep, depression, disease, sea sickness, alcoholism, boredom, stress, > fire, loss overboard, falls, knock downs, capsize, equipment failures, > etc. etc. Not to mention traffic ashore in strange ports and predators > human and otherwise. it seems to me that those dangers apply to any ship and are not particular to unsinkable boats. I agree with the danger of a dingy. So it should always have other means of propulsion than the engine. > It sounds a bit to me like you see sinking as a risk out of proportion > to all the others. Sinking is not a big risk is a well built and > maintained boat steel boat. You missunderstood me, I do not think that sinking is the biggest risk for a boat., specialy a stell hull. The discussion started with trying to make the boat unsinkable so I concentrated on the subject. The other risk you cite are as real and should also be taken care of and if possible eliminated by design. I'll gladely list my opinion on those dangers. Neverther less, I believe that the very nature of the boat is to carry lives safely over deep water. Isn't it logical to assure that the boat always stay over the water? A 3/4 sunk boat with rig is still sailable and move forward (I haven't tryed but I see no reasons why it couldn't) a sinkable boats moves downwards. > Sinkings do happen, but usually there is only a loss of life when > coupled with a storm. So you mean that the example you gave for the thru hull only happends in stroms. We can not argue with no figures, how do you know that people just sink and die in storms (and how do I know the oposit)? We just know about the survivors and noting about the dead ones. > Having an unsinkable boat, that is awash in a > storm sea will not save you. You and everything not nailed down will be > swept out of the hull by the surge. You seldom propose counter examples. What happends to you in the very same storm if the boat is 3000 meters bellow instead of awash? What happends after the storm? Would you prefer to be in a 1.6 m life boat, a half sunk boat or no boat at all? I just can't help myself reacting to the "Having an unsinkable boat, that is awash in a storm sea will not save you". Lately we have seen quite a lot of multi up side down in the new, some of them in storms, it seems to me that the boat is the very thing that saves the crew. The boat is also what allowed them to be spoted so easily (with the help of an EPBIR too I guess (which I wouldn't carry myself)). > This lack of room causes stress and makes people unhappy. I _completely_ agree with you. this is a most important point. > The Lazy Bones fully loaded with crew and stores for 6 months weighs > approximately 30,000 lbs. That is a volume of 500 cubic feet to float > the boat. It is a huge volume. A cylinder 6 feet across by 30 feet > long to fit inside a 39 foot boat. The discussion was about Brent's boats that are not that heavy. You twist the discussion again with you example. I didn't call for huge cylinder but to make the boat unsinkable. What is the developped suface of 'lazy bone' hull (lets ignore the deck)? What is the surface of the bunks, seats, bulkheads, ...(plase help me fill in with some places that could be used without disturbing the crew's life)? Multiply that surface with 0.75 (to keep the boat high). If that surface was to be covered with foam to create a volume equal to the cylinder, what thickness would it have? what is the beam of the 'lazy bone' and how many percents does the foam thickness represent? If you hull is already isolated, how much isolation do you have today? Cheers, Nadim. | 1671|1671|2003-05-29 08:19:13|...|designing for boat safety|Is it not impossible to provide sufficient buoyancy to keep the hull at a height in the water to enable the hull to be pumped out. If the hull was part submerged,it will roll in the water unless the sea was dead calm. In anything of a sea it will be very difficult to pump out,if not impossible I you have ever been in a boat which has taken in a lot of water you will know that it is very unstable and rolls with every wave and continues to roll as the water in the hull surges in the same direction as the roll. If anyone has tried to bale out a swamped sailing dingy which has buoyancy bags,(which are probably a much larger ratio of buoyancy bag to hull weight)they will know it is not very easy getting the water out. I have not calculated the number of pop bottles that are required just to keep the deck level with the surface of the sea, but I don't think there will be much room for people on board. Who will have to drink all that pop?. Think about where the waterline is that same volume of water has to be displaced. If the buoyancy is just in the bow and stern the hull will still roll. I have been in a friends yacht in that situation,the bilge pump was blocked by all the rubbish that collects in the bilge, I am now very choose whose boat I go to sea in. There is a view developing in the UK that everything must be 100% safe,parents will not let there children go on adventure holidays as it might be dangerous or do the things most of use in this group have done,consequently the kids do not learn to deal with difficult situations and self confidence. If the school dose arrange a few days of adventure and something goes wrong,the school and the teachers ( who have given there own time away from there own family )are threatened with legal action and loss of livelihood, consequently no one is volunteering to do anything more than play football with the kids. They spend all there time in front of the TV and playing computer games which are the substitute for real life. Yes you should do all you can to make you boat as seaworthy as possible but you will never make it 100% safe, if that is what you want do not build a boat and go to play at sea. Geoff| 1672|1672|2003-05-29 08:43:41|...|designing boats for safety|Hi Nadim, I do not mind if another member tells me I am wrong. Boats that are 3/4 sunk do not sail well, if at all,you have lost the buoyancy of the hull which keeps the mast vertical, you have also overlooked the surge of water inside the hull,which accentuates any roll of the hull. Try it with your a toy boat next time you have a bath,I am sure everyone in the group cannot go near water without sailing something. Geoff| 1673|1671|2003-05-29 09:00:17|nadim|Re: designing for boat safety|Hi Geoff, It seems you missed the begining of the thread, bottles were proposed as a solution for the bilge only as there is a possibility for the foam to to absob water. I am open to other solutions. That one was practical and cheap. You are right about the difficulty of emptiing a boat fro the water. But that should be compared with not having a boat at all. I would not put the lives of my dear ones in a life boat (not the subber rings anyhow). Now, if the boat is full of water and you can arrange to fix the hole in the hull, the hatches beeing closed properly, it would be possible to pump the water out with a hand pump. The foam (or other device) should be kept as low as possible to ensure a high floatation. It all boils down to this question: Would you rather be in a 3/4 sunk boat that is rolling like hell or outside, without the boat, rolling like hell? In any case, It would be much easier to spot the boat. Cheers, Nadim.| 1674|1674|2003-05-29 10:44:34|Michael Casling|Floatation enthusiasts|Digsby Taylor / Tony Bullimore. How many saved lives from the use of floatation do we need. Tony's account was well captured on TV. Digsby wrote an excellent account of having a boat full of water in rough weather. He simply swam away form the boat on a tether until the weather got better. His crew not tethered was lost. I well remember the debate that followed when the yacht club would not let boats with out fixed keels race on overnight races claiming they were not as stable. My point was I would rather be sitting on the hull of a floating boat than be on a boat that was not supposed to roll or sink. The USYRU report on capsizing quickly convinced me that a lot of boats could be sunk easily. I am not trying to change any ones mind just further a good debate. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1675|1672|2003-05-29 11:31:40|nadim|Re: designing boats for safety|Hi Geoff, > I do not mind if another member tells me I am wrong. So do I. I am actualy here for people to tell me I am wrong so I don't have to make the mistake. > Boats that are 3/4 sunk do not sail well, if at all Agreed. I think I said that they are able to sail, not that one can break speed records with them. I appreciate that you and other point out the difficulties but I believe that chance of survival are 2 order of magnitude higher for a crew on a 3/4 sunk boat than on no boat att all. Cheers, Nadim.| 1676|1674|2003-05-29 11:53:39|nadim|Re: Floatation enthusiasts|Hi Michael, nice to see an unconditional supporter. I think all of us are floatation enthusiasts as there is no sail without it, but it seems that some of our fellow boat owners think it's difficult to do in their boat or that it brings disadvantages. I hope that with time and figures we can prove that we are right or be proven wrong. Another great danger (greater for the each individual) is man over board. I believe that there is much to do in that area too. We talked about fire not long ago. Here is the name of the book I recommended earlier, it's in french and impossible to get but you might be able to borrow it through the local library in canada. BORG Gérard : Nauticus - Encyclopédie pratique du bateau - Tome 15 : Incidents, naufrages, survie, la sécurité - (Ne pas mourir en mer / La chute par dessus bord / Les causes du naufrage / Comment l'éviter / Sauvetage en mer / La survie, engins, pneumatiques, matériels et techniques Editions MARTIMES ET D'OUTRE-MER / Robert LAFFONT 1979 - Cette encyclopédie (en 15 volumes) est réalisée par un collectif d'auteurs (Alain BOMBARD, André MAURIC, Eric TABARLY etc ...) - Bien illustré par une quantité appréciable de croquis, dessins, photographies et schémas - Relié cartonné cousu au format 17,5 cm sur 24 cm - 318 pages - 27,50 € Cheers, Nadim.| 1677|1500|2003-05-29 12:04:10|pvanderwaart|Re: Designing for boat safety.|With respect to the buoyancy of foamy water, the best plan is to stay on board. I heard John Rousmaniere suggest "putting all your eggs in the basket of staying on board." In other words, be obsessive about your tether and harness, and don't be concerned about a flotation device. A big asset is being able to run the boat from below decks and expose yourself to the elements a little as possible. Aside from minimizing risk of going over the side, you are protected to some extent from many of the other hazards on the list such as hypothermia and exposure. Peter| 1678|1671|2003-05-29 12:23:09|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: designing for boat safety|a 2 liter pop bottle will float about 4.4 pounds. (note: as they submerge they will lose buoyancy at the rate of about 50% per 30 feet, so if they are in the bilge you might only get 4 pounds per bottle. Best to add some extra to my numbers below). This is a about 500 bottles per ton of displacement to float neutral. A 36 foot displacement hull might come in around 10 tons, so maybe 5000 2 liter bottles to float neutral. You might want to build the lockers a bit bigger than normal. Also, the interior structures are usually not designed with sufficient scantlings to support the weight of the boat, so they will need to be beefed up a bit. Otherwise the floatation could rip out the interiors and paste them against the cabin undersides, until the surge can wash them out thru the companionway. A book on wooden boat building can probably provide the scantling number for the wooden structure you need to build inside your steel hull to support the lifting force of the bottles. Look under "wooden hulls". Ok, I'm new. Empty pop bottles is a joke, right? greg elliott yacht lazy bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1679|1661|2003-05-29 12:53:41|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg's Design|Hi Nadim, My information is that the steel for my boat was wheel abraded and primed before building, because building with mill scale in place is a dirty, black business. As I recall, it added a few cents a pound to the cost of the steel. This was 20 years ago, so prices will have changed by now. Best call your local supplier and check the price. Lots of boats have steps welded to the hull. I'd probably place then at the transom. Easier to grab if you accidentally go over the side. However, they also provide access to the boat for unwanted visitors and I wouldn't have them for extended cruising. On the Lazy Bones there is a lifting ring on the trailing edge of the rudder stock, just above the water line. It is a convenient place to grab onto the boat. You can use this area as a step, holding on to the trim tab shaft to climb aboard, and is less obvious to outsiders. However, on two or three occasions we've been sitting naked in the cockpit when a stranger has climbed aboard using this method. The strangest visitor to use this method was a giant monitor lizard. His claws couldn't get a grip on the rudder to climb aboard, but he tried for a couple of hours with one back foot in the lifting ring amd his body wrapped around the trim tab shaft. Wasn't the least bit concerned about us. The lifting ring also makes a convenient place to tie the inflatable in high winds. Inflatables love to fly when tied higher up, and have an uncanny ability to land upside down with the outboard underwater. Tying them short with a second line thru the lifting ring prevents them from getting airborne. g ----- Original Message ----- From: nadim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 3:14 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Greg's Design Hi greg, On Thursday 29 May 2003 08:29, info@... wrote: > ... > I will close with this observation. Over the years a reliable engine > has saved me more times than a strong hull. However, I wouldn't be > without either. The few times you need it, a strong hull more than pays > for itself. Thanks for your input greg. Now you may have noticed that the people on this list are the "down to earth" type. Not many designers around (even Brent is too busy sailing (lucky ...)). So let's stop turning around the honey jar: - You build software (oh what a wondrfull job (I do too :-)) but you design boats for _fun_ (as stated on your web site). - How many of your boats have been build? When were they build? How many in aluminium? - How many still exist? - How much do the plan cost and what sizes are available.? - What steel thickness? metric or imperial? - What kind of framming? - What do you plan contain? - What is the typical build time? - What is the dislacement and dimention of the boats? - What safety feature do your plan include (see remark bellow)? - You sailed extensively in SEA, what features can be found to cope with heat (ie where are the opening, how many of them, ..) - Do you have flush decks design? (which IMHO make no sense at all) Please excuse my inquisitive tone but I have a hundreds questions (I think other do too) and we can save a lot of time by cutting on some useless political corectness. I'd be pleased if other member of the list helped us with their questions. A propos safety: Something caught my eye, something good. In the picture on your web site we can see a (somewhat rusty (see bellow)) hull with steps welded to it. I realy like that feature and it's actualy the first time I see it (read about it in a french book about safety (green nauticus, a great book)). The rusty hull: we now and then restart the discussion about pre primed steel or not, how to blast the hull, what to put on it to avoid rust and so on. You seem to have a lot of experience here, could you please share it with us. You also seem to dislike the amount of maintenance a steel hull implies, could you please tell us how much maintenance is done on your boat? and at what cost? Cheers, Nadim Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1680|1671|2003-05-29 13:25:30|nadim|Re: designing for boat safety|On Thursday 29 May 2003 18:10, info@... wrote: > Ok, I'm new. Empty pop bottles is a joke, right? > greg elliott No it is not. But what you missed is that bottles where to be used in the bilge only where foam would absorb water. I dismissed building water tight tanks in the bilge because of the difficulty to make lots of small water tight spaces and the difficulty in protecting them from rust. The rest of the flotation is assured by insulation foam and other floatation devices. Any other idea for the bilge is welcome. Cheers, Nadim.| 1681|1681|2003-05-29 13:43:09|Stephen Wandling|I'll be glad when Brent is back|I'm sure Brent will have some comments on 'boat safety'. I think Colin said it best: "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea."| 1682|1672|2003-05-29 14:07:51|...|designing boats for safety|Hi Nadim, I do understand the point that was being made about the pop bottles,I hope most people have a sense of humour, I was joking,I had an image of help we are sinking we need all the buoyancy start drinking the pop!. I am not sure if the option of a double bottom has been discussed,this is the most attractive option as it might stop the water coming on board in the first place. I am sure this could be arranged as a number of tanks with inspection panels with the top of the tank providing support for the cabin sole and also forming engine bearers etc,the tanks might have a small amount oil or rust inhibitor in them. This way the buoyancy will be where it will do most good if needed,this has been big ship practice for years. It would not be that difficult to have a sensor in each compartment to warn of leaks also if there was an impact it would be possible to check if the hull was damaged within a few minutes,and which tank to investigate. Best wishes Geoff| 1683|1671|2003-05-29 14:31:59|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: designing for boat safety|dividing the hull into 3 sections with watertight bulkheads is the only solution I have seen on a small steel boat. ----- Original Message ----- From: nadim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] designing for boat safety On Thursday 29 May 2003 18:10, info@... wrote: > Ok, I'm new. Empty pop bottles is a joke, right? > greg elliott No it is not. But what you missed is that bottles where to be used in the bilge only where foam would absorb water. I dismissed building water tight tanks in the bilge because of the difficulty to make lots of small water tight spaces and the difficulty in protecting them from rust. The rest of the flotation is assured by insulation foam and other floatation devices. Any other idea for the bilge is welcome. Cheers, Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1684|1671|2003-05-29 15:17:56|sae140|Re: designing for boat safety|> Since I am not to build an origami boat, I am missing some information about the boats. you quote 8 tons. Is that the displacement of the origami boat you intend to build? Depends on availability of steel. I'm having difficulty sourcing 4mm in big sheets. If I can't source soon, then I'll reluctantly go for the 36ft which uses 5mm. This being an Origami boat group, I'm kinda surprised to hear that you're not building one. So what sort of boat are you building ? I've already designed one mechanism for releasing a keel bulb from inside the hull, which doesn't weigh anything significant. I originally designed this for a wooden boat to ensure positive buoyancy. The idea was to provide a last-ditch attempt to keep a flooded boat afloat, i.e. to act as it's own liferaft. It's a life- saver only - no attempt being made to provide for useful sailing ability afterwards. I might file a patent - or I might go sailing instead. > "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea." I'd appreciate the quote if I was an 18th century english man trying to prove my valor by confronting with danger. That kind of thinking of from another age where loose of life wasn't all that important. I think the original quote was in regard of waiting for the ideal weather to present itself before casting off - which is kinda pointless really, 'cause weather fronts in these waters change much faster than any boat can sail - so you get what you get when you're out there, and you have to deal with the weather as it arises. "Valor" ?? "confronting with danger " ? I don't read anything 'macho' into that quote, only a wise cautionary reminder that *everyone* who puts out to sea *always* faces the possibility of overwhelming danger. Even today's most experienced mariners accept that this may happen to them one day. That's why there's such a market for EPIRB's, life-jacket's, life-rafts, and all the rest. Trawlermen lose more lives each year than any other single industry. Ironically, most drownings 'at sea' occur on the trip from the boat to the shore by tender. So danger is present even close to shore. > I value my crew and own life highly and if there are dangers, then I'll wait. And if danger is always present, then I'll stay at home. the quote is just plain silly. (no offence intended, but you know that hopefully) I read the quote as simply being a reminder that the sea is a fundamentally dangerous environment and that you put your life (and those of others) at risk each and every time you set sail. The clever bit is to reduce the risk as much as possible beforehand with a sound boat and gear, education, experience and local knowledge. However, the danger is (alas) *always* there - it just doesn't reveal itself much of the time - which is precisely why dozens of innocent 'townies' end up being drowned every single summer along Britain's coast-lines, in what has become known here as "the silly season". Staying at home is always an option. Colin| 1685|1674|2003-05-29 15:34:03|Alex Christie|Re: Floatation enthusiasts|Keeping steel afloat if a vessel is awash is not impossible, but with the foam working hard just to keep the weight of the steel near the surface of the sea, I am not sure if you'd have any useable living space below, would you? The flotation idea would work for a hull made of material lighter than water, however, since the hull skin will be self-supporting and the flotation only needs to take care of the weight of the ballast and stores (water in the water tanks will be neutral, and fuel will be slightly lighter than water). A friend of mine designed and built a 40 foot boat using strip- planked fir with a heavy lamination of fibreglass over top. She designed in considerable hullform stability and kept the displacement light, and even made sure much of the interior woodwork was of light, bouyant wood and cored materials. The result is a vessel with a very strong hull that can float quite high if holed. The forward water tank functions as a crash bulk head, meaning that a huge chunk of the bow could be ripped off below the waterline and the hull would not fill. Something else to consider closely is the fact that any vessel full of water will no longer behave the same as the vessel full of air, largely because hullform stability is no longer part of the overall stability equation (ballast being the other part). I discovered in a personal way how dangerous flooding is when sailing an open boat on windy BC interior lake. The water leaked through the centreboard casing and flooded the boat. It didn't sink, as it was equipped with proper floatation, but the "free surface effect" of the water sloshing around inside the boat wreaked complete havoc with stability, and I had to severely reduce sail in order to prevent the boat from rolling, as well as a lot of hopping around to keep her upright. It was an extremely bad situation as I had young passengers on board who would have been endangered by hypothermia if they went into the water. It took every skill I ever had in sailing, plus the development of some new ones, to return my crew to shore in one piece because I had to balance reducing sail to stay upright with the need to keep big, water-filled slug moving and make it back to the dock. In a bad storm, I could forsee a flooded steel boat rolling many times in this fashion, bringing no comfort or safety to the crew. Maybe for those that want emergency flotation the yachtsaver bags would be the way to go, though an expensive proposition. It is an interesting problem to ponder, and the ultimate decision whether to build in flotation really depends on how confident a person is with the strength of a steel hull. Because the Brent boats typically employ few opening hatches, and those it does have can be sealed up tight, I'd elect to go without the extra flotation myself (the submarine approach). There a remarkable number of brand new very expensive manufactured yachts which still use drop boards for the main hatch and I find this an astounding step backwards in progress, ensuring a hull will fill as fast as possible when rolled or pooped! Alex| 1686|1671|2003-05-29 16:26:27|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: designing for boat safety|How to calculate (simplified) if your hull is unsinkable: 1. Take the displacement of the yacht in tons - D. 2. Take the volume of all areas filled with foam or similar material in cubic meters - F D>F you sink. D I read the quote as simply being a reminder that the sea is a > fundamentally dangerous environment and that you put your life (and > those of others) at risk each and every time you set sail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1688|1671|2003-05-29 16:48:58|nadim|Re: designing for boat safety|Hi Colin, On Thursday 29 May 2003 21:17, sae140 wrote: > This being an Origami boat group, I'm kinda surprised to hear that > you're not building one. So what sort of boat are you building ? Right now nothing, I have a build a ship previously and my choice would got to an unsinkable cat when I have the money. I am most interested in building, much more than sailing and the origami method is the one that make most sense to build a boat IMO. I also like the ambiance on this list, no sissies, no designer fuss. Qimple boat, simple people (which I consider myself to be). I think I have something to offer here and I also thin there are things to learn. >The idea was to provide a last-ditch attempt to keep a > flooded boat afloat, i.e. to act as it's own liferaft. It's a life- > saver only Let's no argue about the mechanics of you solution. if it fits you then I am fine. But our goals are similar but have diferent extents. With your system you wish to have a safe life boat (something not attainable with a an off the shelf life-raft). My goal attemps to go further if possible. I'd like to recover from a bad situation (sinked) to a good one (sailing). I must say that I am a bit surprise that the consensus of a steel boat not needing to be made unsinkable is so widely accepted. I see no reason it should be so. > > "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea." > "Valor" ?? "confronting with danger " ? We read the quote diffrently, that's all. You sea sailing as an ineherant dangerous activity, I don't. The consensus of not taking the most basic step toward safety is dangerous. Let me put it like this, Does it make sense to go to sea on a sinkable skiff when it can be made unsikable without too much difficulty? >That's why there's such a > market for EPIRB's, life-jacket's, life-rafts, and all the rest. EPBIR and life-rafts are IMO more dangerous than usefull. They give a sentiment of safety without backing it with real solutions. The most dangerous being the life-boat, often imposed to us by law, It's like giving aspirin to someone whith unadapted glasses. Cheers, Nadim. | 1689|1671|2003-05-29 16:52:18|nadim|Re: designing for boat safety|Hi, On Thursday 29 May 2003 22:28, info@... wrote: > How to calculate (simplified) if your hull is unsinkable: > > 1. Take the displacement of the yacht in tons - D. > 2. Take the volume of all areas filled with foam or similar material in > cubic meters - F > > D>F you sink. > D D=F neutral. > > Don't flame me on the limitations of this method. There is a lot more > work required to be exact. I realy don't want to flamme anyone, we sometimes get hot but I think it's OK as long as there is a discussion going on, it just proves that we 'burn' for the subject. Now I am a bit desapointed by you response. I thought you'd come back with some figures to prove me wrong :-). Cheers, Nadim. | 1690|1671|2003-05-29 16:56:29|nadim|Re: designing for boat safety|On Thursday 29 May 2003 22:40, Stephen Wandling wrote: > Another version of the same quote: > "He that will not sail 'til all dangers are over must never put out to > sea." -Thomas Fuller [Given his era: 1654 - 1734, I suspect 'must' > could be translated to the modern 'will'.] I sound like 18th century thinking, I was not so wrong after all. > I'm reminded of when Adlard Cole's coffee-table-book "Heavy Weather > Sailing" came out. A large number of sailing friends that read it > scraped their cruising plans and decided that they would never go to > sea. I think it is significant that it was published as a > "coffee-table-book". I read the book 3 times. I gave me the envy to sail (I won't bother you on what type of boat :-) Cole simple description is a fantastic call for more sailing, with the knowledge of what can happend and how often it happend to him. I recommend the book for anyone that has not read i yet. Cheers, Nadim.| 1691|1681|2003-05-29 17:50:07|Michael Casling|Re: I'll be glad when Brent is back|Stephen wrote: I'm sure Brent will have some comments on 'boat safety'. I think Colin said it best: "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea." I am sure he would have something to say because he has already said it. He thinks talking about floatation is left over logic from plastic and other types of boats and not applicable to steel because of there strength. He has quoted the case of a steel boat being pounded on a reef for days with out holing. I think we all realize that a sailboat is always a compromise and we all place different items at the top of the list. I place safety at the top followed by floatation then sailing performance in conjunction with comfort. I admire and somewhat envy Brent's ability to be able and willing to sail offshore as the mood moves him. Others might admire our ability to run an organic blueberry farm and a herd of sheep. We also sail at least once a week all the while that these discussions are taking place. First in our class at the Blossom Time Regatta. The people you describe about waiting for all dangers to pass are generally not your mainstream sailors. They recognize the dangers and go sailing. It is usually financial and family and time commitments that must pass before we put to sea. Here again it is how we order our priorities. But as I have already said we sail at least once a week and have been doing so since 1979 when we got the boat. I am currently enrolled in the CPS celestial navigation course and once that is complete if time permits the bow will be pointing to Hawaii, and if it is my boat it will have sufficient floatation. I have surfed the big waves in Hawaii, road raced a motorcycle at the open GP level so I have a healthy view of the dangers coupled with self preservation. At 56 I plan on being around for quite a while.I will not be building a steel boat but I am not prepared to disagree out of hand with those that are building steel boats. Quite frankly I think it is a good idea. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1692|1674|2003-05-29 18:22:36|nadim|Re: Floatation enthusiasts|On Thursday 29 May 2003 21:14, Alex Christie wrote: > Keeping steel afloat if a vessel is awash is not impossible, but with > the foam working hard just to keep the weight of the steel near the > surface of the sea, I am not sure if you'd have any useable living > space below, would you? It all depends of the density of the flooded boat, that's why I have repeatedly written to put most of the floatation in the bilge and asked greg not to take the roof insulation into his account. Let's say you manage to keep 50cm of the boat full of air. That is not a very friendly situation and the risk of hypothermia is high (but lower) but you have the chance of brathing air instead of spray. The weather will calm a day or another, then you have tools, provisions, it will protect you from sun, sea animal, rock bottoms, waves, ..., a (quite) safe life boat (though flooded) a big platform to stand on, one that is more visible than a head or two in the water, You still have the boat and most important 'hope'. People die because they have no hope. Do you think you'll have more hope floating on the boat or without the boat? You also have a possible challenge, repare and survive. What would you do floating around in your life jacket without even a wreck to hold on? I also had the same idea as your friend, using the water tanks as a double hull (among other double hull ideas). My opinion is that is better to have two safety mesures than one. A steel hull with positive boyancy. As noted by another member, you don't need to get a hole in the boat to be flooded. Being wrecked is not a light situation, I have problems understanding why you guys dismiss the positive boyancy and not think about the catastrophy that it would be to float around in open sea. It seems to me I have been answering each and every member of this list and that we have not taken the step that would tell if I am right or wrong. Let's put figures on the problem. Why not choose a boat and make the calculation for the extra foam needed to keep it afloat, say at 70 % of it's normal height. In thousands of years, we have taken the risk of sailing on sinkable boats, the boats designers and user have a huge inertia, it's tough to make any change. I just can't accept putting my beloved lifes at risk just because the consensus is that steel (or other) boats sink when flooded. And I find it staight dangerous to think steel is the ultimate solution because of it's strength. Cheers, Nadim.| 1693|1671|2003-05-29 21:08:38|Graeme Mitchell|Re: designing for boat safety|YEP It,s a joke good one guys that got them going and April 1 has gone my be early for next year. I have just finished my boat be it that it is a little small it is a 500 cubic Lt Westinghouse looks good under sail even has a light that comes on when I open the door. Damn not much room in side as it is full of empty coke bottles, blast them kids for not throwing out the rubbish. -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 30, 2003 01:25:35 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] designing for boat safety On Thursday 29 May 2003 18:10, info@... wrote: > Ok, I'm new. Empty pop bottles is a joke, right? > greg elliott No it is not. But what you missed is that bottles where to be used in the bilge only where foam would absorb water. I dismissed building water tight tanks in the bilge because of the difficulty to make lots of small water tight spaces and the difficulty in protecting them from rust. The rest of the flotation is assured by insulation foam and other floatation devices. Any other idea for the bilge is welcome. Cheers, Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1694|1681|2003-05-29 21:10:19|Graeme Mitchell|Re: I'll be glad when Brent is back|AMEN I MIGHT START CUSSING SOON -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 30, 2003 01:43:21 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] I'll be glad when Brent is back I'm sure Brent will have some comments on 'boat safety'. I think Colin said it best: "He who waits for all dangers to pass must never put out to sea." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1695|1672|2003-05-29 21:12:53|Graeme Mitchell|Re: designing boats for safety|Now this is more like it sailing around in a fridge was not much fun after all -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 30, 2003 02:09:04 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] designing boats for safety Hi Nadim, I do understand the point that was being made about the pop bottles,I hope most people have a sense of humour, I was joking,I had an image of help we are sinking we need all the buoyancy start drinking the pop!. I am not sure if the option of a double bottom has been discussed,this is the most attractive option as it might stop the water coming on board in the first place. I am sure this could be arranged as a number of tanks with inspection panels with the top of the tank providing support for the cabin sole and also forming engine bearers etc,the tanks might have a small amount oil or rust inhibitor in them. This way the buoyancy will be where it will do most good if needed,this has been big ship practice for years. It would not be that difficult to have a sensor in each compartment to warn of leaks also if there was an impact it would be possible to check if the hull was damaged within a few minutes,and which tank to investigate. Best wishes Geoff Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1696|1671|2003-05-29 21:40:08|Graeme Mitchell|Re: designing for boat safety|Steve Yes i was like when Jaws was a new movie it put a lot of people of swimming in the ocean . With Alex,s comments on crash barriers in water tanks in the bow etc . I think that would be a better plan to include some of these features in a Boat when building as a first line defence, as his friend built in place instead of half assed filling lockers with rubbish and hope the hell it saves you . New member I would like to welcome Greg and i have some Question s for him as well 1. Was your boat built in PNG -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 30, 2003 04:40:47 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: designing for boat safety Another version of the same quote: "He that will not sail 'til all dangers are over must never put out to sea." -Thomas Fuller [Given his era: 1654 - 1734, I suspect 'must' could be translated to the modern 'will'.] I'm reminded of when Adlard Cole's coffee-table-book "Heavy Weather Sailing" came out. A large number of sailing friends that read it scraped their cruising plans and decided that they would never go to sea. I think it is significant that it was published as a "coffee-table-book". sae140 wrote: > I read the quote as simply being a reminder that the sea is a > fundamentally dangerous environment and that you put your life (and > those of others) at risk each and every time you set sail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1697|1671|2003-05-29 22:27:02|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: designing for boat safety|Hi Graeme, Thanks for the welcome. The Lazy Bones was built in good old Coombs BC. g ----- Original Message ----- From: Graeme Mitchell To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: designing for boat safety Steve Yes i was like when Jaws was a new movie it put a lot of people of swimming in the ocean . With Alex,s comments on crash barriers in water tanks in the bow etc . I think that would be a better plan to include some of these features in a Boat when building as a first line defence, as his friend built in place instead of half assed filling lockers with rubbish and hope the hell it saves you . New member I would like to welcome Greg and i have some Question s for him as well 1. Was your boat built in PNG -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 30, 2003 04:40:47 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: designing for boat safety Another version of the same quote: "He that will not sail 'til all dangers are over must never put out to sea." -Thomas Fuller [Given his era: 1654 - 1734, I suspect 'must' could be translated to the modern 'will'.] I'm reminded of when Adlard Cole's coffee-table-book "Heavy Weather Sailing" came out. A large number of sailing friends that read it scraped their cruising plans and decided that they would never go to sea. I think it is significant that it was published as a "coffee-table-book". sae140 wrote: > I read the quote as simply being a reminder that the sea is a > fundamentally dangerous environment and that you put your life (and > those of others) at risk each and every time you set sail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1698|1674|2003-05-30 12:56:01|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Floatation enthusiasts|I'm sure we all agree that boats should be unsinkable. The question for steel boat owners is whether the costs justify the benefits. For some the costs are not justified. For others they are. Ultimately, this is a personal choice for the boat owner, and so it should be. If someone asks us to make one of our designs unsinkable - we will. We will advise you that there are some negative features as well as positive features, but we firmly believe that every owner has the right to decide for themselves. Our Genoa 55 design for example is an unsinkable design, with fore and aft watertight bulkheads. Personally, I think that of all the hull materials available to build a ballasted yacht, steel is one of the hardest to sink. But by no means impossible. Consider for a minute a Volvo. They are designed (reportedly) to be very safe cars in an accident. However, if you are hit head-on on the highway there is a good chance you may be killed, even in the safest of cars. Even if you do everything right, and make zero mistakes while driving, you can still be killed or maimed. Driving an M1A, at a cost of $100 million (?) each, might allow you to walk away from such an accident, but most of us do not have enough money to buy one. As a result, we settle for something less safe. If we waited until driving was 100% safe before getting in a car, we never would. It is the same for boating. You have a budget. Within that budet we try to balance safety, performance, comfort and appearance to best suit your needs and intended use. Thinking that you are safe or even safer because your yacht is unsinkable is a mistake. False confidence led to the loss of the Titanic. If the belief that you are unsinkable leads you to sail beyond your ability the sea will ultimately claim you, unsinkable or not. No yacht is truly unsinkable. A light weight multihull may be "unsinkable", but if it is run down by a freighter because the watch is asleep large portions of the boat will go to the bottom. I firmly believe that the #1 safetly device available for all yacht owners is seamanship. It was not my intent in this forum to suggest that yachts should not be unsinkable. Rather, that for a ballasted steel yacht on a budget, your money might be better spent on equipment, training, spares, etc. No one can or should make that decision for you. That decision rests with you. greg elliott yacht lazy bones http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1699|1674|2003-05-30 15:35:28|nadim|Re: Floatation enthusiasts|Hi Greg and all others, On Friday 30 May 2003 18:57, info@... wrote: > I'm sure we all agree that boats should be unsinkable. The question for > steel boat owners is whether the costs justify the benefits. At least! Let's keep this discussion for the end of my mail. I'd like to highlight one or two points where I disagree with you. > For some the costs are not justified. For others they are. Ultimately, > this is a personal choice for the boat owner, and so it should be. I agree with you but I belive that the role of this mailing list is to take up the discussion and make it clear what is possible or not (and within what constrains) even if it was only for the sake of boat design evolution. > Thinking that you are safe or even safer because your yacht is > unsinkable is a mistake. Non sense, one is never 100% safe but whatever step one take to make the boat safer must account for a safer boat otherwise why would we bother building in metal if we are going to be mached down by a freighter anyhow. You give examples of dangers that have nothing to do with the current discussion: 'boyancy'. If this was about any danger we face then I'd be the first one to add to the long (and comprehensive) list you presented us. > False confidence led to the loss of the > Titanic. If the belief that you are unsinkable leads you to sail beyond > your ability the sea will ultimately claim you, unsinkable or not. The titanic had the same design that you propose in your Genoa55, water tight bulkheads. The titanic neither had fully water tight bulkhead nor positive boyancy. Had the titanic been boyant, less lives would have been lost. And we would have avoided a third rate movie. You think the titanic was lost because of too much confidence, I think it partely did but it was certainly lost because of bad design. > It was not my intent in this forum to suggest that yachts should not be > unsinkable. Rather, that for a ballasted steel yacht on a budget, your > money might be better spent on equipment, training, spares, etc. So why not make the calculation? Let's put figures on this problem. I asked you for the figures for your boat but you simply didn't answer. Once we know if it is possible or not to make a steel origami boat boyant enough, then we will know how much it costs. Then each and every one can decide where one's money goes. > No one can or should make that decision for you. That decision rests > with you. Are we going to stop turning around the pot? Please less talk and more figures. I'd have already given them if I had one of brent's plan but I don't. I propose we take one of brent's designs, or one of your designs Greg, an calculate what it takes to make it boyant, that is, not take into account any bulkheads or yacht savers or whatnot. Once we have calculated that (say for a density of 0.6-0,7) then we can take into acount 1 or 2 bulkheads and yachtsavers or other systems like colin's detachable keel. As I already proposed, let's take into acount only the foam (or other sytem) that is located in the lower part of the boat. So what design should use? 31', 36'? Has anyone that is intressted in making his boat unsinkable already bought plan? Other intressting point would be the layout of the furniture and the number of bunks as well as their height. If there is a bulkhead, it might be possible to double it with 15-20 cm of foam (can be cheap blue foam). I am sure there will be lots of ideas, emerging from the discussion, for where to put the foam or how to build a lighter furniture. After re-re-reading my mail, it seems that I am THE floatation enthusiast and I am goign up in the rpms. Of course no offence intended to anyone. I occured to me that mankind can buils submarines and batyscaphs but not able to make all boat unsinklable. Cheers, Nadim. | 1700|1674|2003-05-30 17:10:18|Alex Christie|wrapping up the floatation thread|Dear group, Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation issue (before it sinks:-), and I think we've already concluded that the level of safety preparedness is largely a matter of personal choice, guided by experience. There are a diversity of approaches, ranging all the way from foaming, yachtsaver, and watertight bulkheads. Beyond those steps, there are few other options, other than staying ashore. The main question Nadim was looking to answer is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. Onto the next questions! Alex| 1701|1674|2003-05-30 17:26:55|nadim|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Hi Alex, On Friday 30 May 2003 23:10, Alex Christie wrote: >The main question Nadim was looking to answer > is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat > if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for > thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he > returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if > anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. I agree with the contents of your mail at one exception. Why wait for brent to come back? I though the spirit of this mailing list was to show that one can handle oneself. Brent surely has the figures you talk about but what would have interested me was the discussion about how to do it. Discussion that has already started with Colin's idea for example. I think any one of us can within 5 mn find out how many cm of foam are needed (Greg's cylinder) but the interesting part is where to place it, what other solutions than foam, how to save weight, etc... I don't think it is time to wrapp the floatation thread but to start it. Cheers, Nadim. | 1702|1674|2003-05-30 17:32:56|Paul Faulkner|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|I'm with Alex. ----- Original Message ----- From: nadim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread Hi Alex, On Friday 30 May 2003 23:10, Alex Christie wrote: >The main question Nadim was looking to answer > is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat > if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for > thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he > returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if > anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. I agree with the contents of your mail at one exception. Why wait for brent to come back? I though the spirit of this mailing list was to show that one can handle oneself. Brent surely has the figures you talk about but what would have interested me was the discussion about how to do it. Discussion that has already started with Colin's idea for example. I think any one of us can within 5 mn find out how many cm of foam are needed (Greg's cylinder) but the interesting part is where to place it, what other solutions than foam, how to save weight, etc... I don't think it is time to wrapp the floatation thread but to start it. Cheers, Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1703|1674|2003-05-30 17:38:26|nadim|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|On Friday 30 May 2003 23:49, Paul Faulkner wrote: > I'm with Alex. The question is not about being with Alex or being with me. This is not a kindergarden fight. I'll continue the thread if there is interest and all those that want to join are very welcome wether they agree with my opinion or not. Just hit the delete button when you see a message from that thread as I do when I am not interested in a thread. Cheers, Nadim.| 1704|1674|2003-05-30 18:23:28|Gary H. Lucas|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|This list sometimes goes days or weeks with no posts. Why on earth would you ask to end what is obviously a very popular subject that is not the least bit off topic? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 5:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread > Dear group, > > Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation > issue (before it sinks:-), and I think we've already concluded that > the level of safety preparedness is largely a matter of personal > choice, guided by experience. There are a diversity of approaches, > ranging all the way from foaming, yachtsaver, and watertight > bulkheads. Beyond those steps, there are few other options, other > than staying ashore. The main question Nadim was looking to answer > is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat > if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for > thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he > returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if > anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. > > Onto the next questions! > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1705|1674|2003-05-30 18:39:04|nadim|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Hi Gary, On Saturday 31 May 2003 00:23, Gary H. Lucas wrote: > This list sometimes goes days or weeks with no posts. Why on earth > would you ask to end what is obviously a very popular subject that is > not the least bit off topic? I'll try to answer. Well, my tone has gone up steadily in the last mails and I think Alex just want to keep the peace on this list. I didn't mean to offend anyone (but I certainly mean to get them a bit hot), and I apologize if I did. As I wrote before I am going up in the rpms and that is because I have the feeliing the discussion is stagnating and we never get to the point. Safety is an important feature for a boat and there are many ways to improve it. As you all have seen, the subject intrests me. I think I can offer something here and I think I can learn from the other mailing list members. I refuse fatality. Period. Dying at sea is not acceptable, it might not be completely avoidable, but I'll sure do my best to live long and I wish all the member of this list do as well. If surviving is a matter of buying steel instead of plastic then I'll do it, if it's a matter of having 2 m3 more foam then I'll do that too. Cheers, Nadim. | 1706|1706|2003-05-30 19:05:43|info@easysoftwareinc.com|I'd rather be sailing|Thanks Alex, I'm new to the group so perhaps I should introduce myself. I've been boating for more than 40 years. Power, sail, racing, cruising, mono, multi, windsurfers, hydroplanes. Almost 20 of that cruising offshore. Nearly 15 years offshore cruising in a steel-hulled ballasted yacht with my wife and children. Cruised extensively Mexico, Hawaii, Palmyra, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, New Caledonia, Australia, PNG, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Borneo. Sailing is my passion. I know some of you out there share the same dreams I had 20+ years ago, but haven't figured out how to make your dreams a reality. Origami boat building is a great solution to this problem. That is what I am here to talk about. How did I do it? Step # 1 - Set a date in your mind by which you will be sitting in the sun on your boat in Mexico, cold cerveza in hand. Step # 2 - Do not move that date for any reason. Make no excuses in your mind to move the date. Move mountains before you move that date. Step # 3 - On that date you will wake up in Mexico, in the sun, on your boat, cold beer in hand, and it will not be a dream. It will be reality. It really is that simple. Do not believe what you read in the yachting magazines. The longer you leave it, the less likely you are to ever go. Cruisers are not old retired people. There is almost no one in their 60's or 70's cruising. They stay at home close to the doctor's office and hospital. Cruisers are energetic people in their 30's, 40's and 50's who want to get out and see the world. regards, Greg yacht Lazy Bones ps: Using the figures supplied previously one can calculate the thickness of foam required, by measuring the area of the pattern for your boat. However, this is misleading because you can't simply spray the inside of the hull to a uniform thickness. For this reason I have not supplied the figure. ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 2:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread Dear group, Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation issue (before it sinks:-), and I think we've already concluded that the level of safety preparedness is largely a matter of personal choice, guided by experience. There are a diversity of approaches, ranging all the way from foaming, yachtsaver, and watertight bulkheads. Beyond those steps, there are few other options, other than staying ashore. The main question Nadim was looking to answer is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. Onto the next questions! Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1707|1674|2003-05-30 19:12:15|Stephen Wandling|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Thanks Alex. Alex Christie wrote: > Dear group, > > Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation > issue | 1708|1674|2003-05-30 21:42:07|Graeme Mitchell|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Alex Let it go I took offence to the attack,s on Greg and his life,s experience e.g being a programer that is all , not nice I will settle down now , We need people like him in our group with positive idea,s and experience there is a lot of information in books but is it as good as real life . But lets keep it positive not attacking , I do not know what others have done or can not do , but if they have a good idea let it happen . To any one that took offence to any thing that I said I apologise lets move a head keep the floatation thing going in a positive manner not attacking. Now for my 20 cents worth (NOTICE METRICS USED ) built in flotation there was some power boats built in Australia with deflated air bags on the both sides of the boat running full length that could be inflated in an emergency they where out of the way in pods on the side of the boat during normal times and only used during and emergency that would keep the boat in a upright position with the boat full of water . I will see if I can find a picture and post it Regards Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2003 06:24:28 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread This list sometimes goes days or weeks with no posts. Why on earth would you ask to end what is obviously a very popular subject that is not the least bit off topic? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Christie" To: Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 5:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread > Dear group, > > Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation > issue (before it sinks:-), and I think we've already concluded that > the level of safety preparedness is largely a matter of personal > choice, guided by experience. There are a diversity of approaches, > ranging all the way from foaming, yachtsaver, and watertight > bulkheads. Beyond those steps, there are few other options, other > than staying ashore. The main question Nadim was looking to answer > is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat > if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for > thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he > returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if > anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. > > Onto the next questions! > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1709|1674|2003-05-30 21:55:21|Stephen Wandling|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Graeme, I value people who have experience and pass that experience along to others on this group. What I don't value are those who have some pet theories and send dozens of emails trying to get others to think like them. I have been on lots of groups and these sorts of mini flame wars have ruined several of them. I vote we keep it practical. Say your piece and then back off. I think Alex does a great job on this group and I commend him for taking action for which he will undoubtedly get flak. Stephen| 1710|1674|2003-05-30 22:08:06|Graeme Mitchell|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Steve Yes I do not want a flaming war just boats I can get war a home with out trying ,our saying a thing lol As for Alex keep up the good work .I was not giving flak at all and i am sorry if it seems like that PEACE DUDES Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2003 09:55:24 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread Graeme, I value people who have experience and pass that experience along to others on this group. What I don't value are those who have some pet theories and send dozens of emails trying to get others to think like them. I have been on lots of groups and these sorts of mini flame wars have ruined several of them. I vote we keep it practical. Say your piece and then back off. I think Alex does a great job on this group and I commend him for taking action for which he will undoubtedly get flak. Stephen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1711|1711|2003-05-31 03:11:37|Alex and Kim Christie|Alex's protocols of moderation|Per Gary's comments, I will let everyone on the group here know how my protocol regarding discussions, and how it relates specifically to the current subject thread: If you look at the archives of all the messages ever posted in this group, you'll see that I rarely step in to a discussion with any intent to steer it, but will do so if I sense that it is on the verge of teetering out of control a la Cruising World list. I do this for the survival of the group, and have learned this from real-life experiences moderating discussions with large groups of people who have radicially divergent, if not completely opposite, views. Without moderation a group can blow itself apart in very short order. The impersonal nature of the internet medium seems to make misunderstandings turn into flamings, so I will on occasion grab the bull by the horns and ask that the discussion participants make their points --- especially if the thread starts getting lost, or bogged down in emotion. Often people will have forgotten what the original issue was, especially if things start to get personal, and this is about the most diplomatic way I know of avoiding conflict --- and I do know the difference between conflict and healthy debate. If a thread starts wandering, or the temperature begins to rise, I will usually try to summarize what each party is saying, and try to nudge people to clarify exactly what they are looking for, or what they mean. If this doesn't naturally bring closure to the thread in its own time, then I'll make further prompts in an attempt to move on, which is exactly what I did in this particular case regarding floatiation. The reason I asked that we "wrap up" the discussion was merely to bring everyone back into focus --- not to end the discussion or stifle debate. I thought that the difference between asking people to "wrap things up" versus instantly ending it was obvious, but evidently not. If this was not clear, then this Canadian has to go back to diplomacy school:-) I am reminded of my brother's tour of duty in Cyprus as a UN peacekeeper -- I should ask him to be part-time moderator on our group! As an aside, please note that this is a world-wide group, and many of our members speak languages other than English as their mother tongue. As an English speaking person who was once immersed in a Hindi-speaking environment for three months, and a French speaking environment for one year, I know of the challenge of writing and speaking in another language. If possible, try to look at the overall picture of what a person is saying rather than reacting to specific words which may appear to be misplaced or misused --- cuing on certain "hot" words is the usual cause of most flame wars. Regards, and happy posting, Alex ----- Original Message ----- > This list sometimes goes days or weeks with no posts. Why on earth would > you ask to end what is obviously a very popular subject that is not the > least bit off topic? > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alex Christie" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 5:10 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] wrapping up the floatation thread > > > > Dear group, > > > > Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation > > issue (before it sinks:-), and I think we've already concluded that > > the level of safety preparedness is largely a matter of personal > > choice, guided by experience. There are a diversity of approaches, > > ranging all the way from foaming, yachtsaver, and watertight > > bulkheads. Beyond those steps, there are few other options, other > > than staying ashore. The main question Nadim was looking to answer > > is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat > > if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for > > thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he > > returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if > > anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. > > > > Onto the next questions! > > > > Alex | 1712|1711|2003-05-31 04:46:16|nadim|Re: Alex's protocols of moderation|Hi Alex, >. The > reason I asked that we "wrap up" the discussion was merely to bring > everyone back into focus --- not to end the discussion or stifle > debate. I thought that the difference between asking people to "wrap > things up" versus instantly ending it was obvious, but evidently not. The words 'wrap up' did suggest you wanted this to end the tread quickly, at first, but I have seen you moderate this list before that's why I opened the discussion with you (I wouldn't have wasted my time with a brainless moderator). Your diplomacy is fine. I feel that you were right about the discussion going out of track. I tried to bring the subject back onto track a few times but I miserably failed. You are also right about cultural background, I am used to argue, fight and be right and if I am not right I love to be _proven_ wrong. To me fighting, screaming, arguing is not negative and I don't hate my conterpart for that; it's just another process. Heated debates, like the one we had, can turn bad or very good. I feel no harm was done but you rightfully wanted to point to the 'very good' direction. You migh like to know that I received a single private mail reminding me you were THE moderator and when you say stop it means STOP and if I continued I'd be BANNED from the list. I answered the mail to be polite but I know you'll me directly if necessary. Next mail, from the same person, told me that this was an origami boat discussion and that there was no intresst in general questions like the current one and that I should go somewhere else. Very plesant indeed. I have noticed that what make the most dammage to a thread is 'hot shots', someone comes in a discussion between two member and takes part without an ground or explaination. It's a very human behavior but a nice catalysator for flamming wars. If any member feels I am too tough on him or have been rude, please feel free to mail me directly. I have noticed that 'flamming war' (if needed but hopefully not) can be run privately leaving the mailling list cooler. I'd also like to remember my fellow list members that one is not forced to be on all threads. Now I'll go on answering Greg. Cheers, Nadim.| 1713|1706|2003-05-31 04:57:02|nadim|Re: I'd rather be sailing|Hi Greg, On Saturday 31 May 2003 01:07, info@... wrote: > How did I do it? > > Step # 1 - Set a date in your mind by which you will be sitting in the > sun on your boat in Mexico, cold cerveza in hand. I think that what you say is very difficult to believe for most because it sounds too simplistic but I have to vouch for you, this is exactly how I build my boat. It might not work for everybody but it's a good strategy Greg, you and I have had a bad start and I take the responsibility for it. It's impossible for newcomers to know the psychology of all the members and some might have a non standard one :-). I should have been nicer with a new commer. The question I asked about your designs came from a genuine interest and I am still interested in getting answers. You wrote this: > Using the figures supplied previously one can calculate the > thickness of foam required, by measuring the area of the pattern for > your boat. However, this is misleading because you can't simply spray > the inside of the hull to a uniform thickness. For this reason I have > not supplied the figure. I'll take it back to the 'designing for boats safety' thread if it's OK with you. Cheers, Nadim. | 1714|1672|2003-05-31 05:18:11|nadim|Re: designing boats for safety|Hi Greg, On Saturday 31 May 2003 01:07, info@... wrote: > Using the figures supplied previously one can calculate the > thickness of foam required, by measuring the area of the pattern for > your boat. However, this is misleading because you can't simply spray > the inside of the hull to a uniform thickness. For this reason I have > not supplied the figure. You have an intressting point here, it is difficult to have an accurate thickness of foam and I think it is important to plan for safety margins? Let me make my question more precise and explain why I asked it. In a previous mail you wrote that having extra floatation devices might make the living quarters too small and that it had negative psychological effects. I agreed with you. I just wanted to get a figure on how much smaller the quarters would be. Mesuring the psychological effect is out of my leage but mesuring the reduction of living volume (in cm lost in the beam) would be an intresting figure. If the reduction in width is too great, I'd wouldn't give up the idea put try to distribute the extra foam around the boat. It's also interesting to know how much it would cost. I would have like to use your boat has example because it's not a fantasy and you have access to the figures needed. Would you like to present the figures or should I make the calculation for a hypotetical boat? Cheers, Nadim. | 1715|1711|2003-05-31 05:22:26|Leif Thomsen|Re: Alex's protocols of moderation|Hi Alex, Thanks for Your last post about moderator protocoll and Your remark about other languages than English! I have Swedish/Danish as my mother language but can read/write English fairly good but not good enough to participate in advanced discussions. Thats why its encouraging to read Your post about all non English viewer of this list, and I am sure thera are a lot of them. So - please keep the language straight and easy for all of us with difficulties with these advanced English expressions and local words. I think the list is a very good place to share experiances and learn more, both for new builders and also between more experianced builders. I have myself up till now built 3 steel yachts, 20, 31 and 39 feet. My project right now is a 50 feet steel, junk rigged yacht. I came across Brents book a Year ago and find his method and ideas really interesting. Many of the ideas is useful for steel yachts in generally and not only origami boats. I have a friend interested in Brents 36, so perhaps we will start this project soon. Another very good forum of knowledge I have found is the "Metal Boat Society", another good Canadian initiative I think. Keep the list alive - thera are a lot of interested readers! Regards, Leif Thomsen| 1716|1716|2003-05-31 05:33:52|edward_stoneuk|Hullform software|Some years ago I bought some hullform software from Peter Rye at www.hullform.com. I bought it to fair the lines of some plans/offsets I was considering to use. That version has been updated but the old version 6 is now available free. Some of you might find it useful in calculating the hydrostatics of a particular design. You may even be interested in purchasing the latest version. Regards, Ted| 1717|1711|2003-05-31 05:48:35|nadim|Re: Alex's protocols of moderation|Hi Leif, On Saturday 31 May 2003 11:21, Leif Thomsen wrote: > I have a friend interested in Brents 36, so perhaps we > will start this project soon. First Swedish Swain boat, that would be a great opportunity to look at one. If your friends needs a pair of arms for a few days, I'd be glad to help. BTW is there a list of the location of Brent's boat? If you pass by Lund, I'd be glad to take a cup of coffee with you or we could go to Malmö look at the boats. I like you ecological house project. Cheers, Nadim. | 1718|1672|2003-05-31 08:26:26|batsondbelfrey|Re: designing boats for safety|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, nadim wrote: > I just wanted to get a figure on how much > smaller the quarters would be. Here is a suggestion for deriving a ball park figure (insert other numbers if you disagree with mine). Let's assume that the hull skin makes up half of the structural weight of the boat (the other half being bulkheads, rig and underwater appendages). Let's assume that for every ton of structure we have another ton of ballast and a ton of payload. The density of steel is about 8 tons per cubic metre. Just to (barely) float the skin we would need another 7 times the thickness of steel, if we can neglect the weight of the foam. Make it 10 times to have a bit of reserve, seeing that the boat should not float with the mast tip barely breaking the surface. Then take into account that the total weight is 6 times the skin weight (or three times the weight of structural parts), and we end up with a layer of foam 60 times as thick as the thickness of the hull, neglecting the volume of ballast (justifiable, given that ballast is usually lead with a density of 11 or so, if I remember correctly) and payload. If you assume that the payload has neutral buoyancy overall, you only need 40 times the skin thickness. If you assume an average payload density of 2, you need foam 50 times as thick as the skin. For 5 mm steel that would be 20 - 30 cm foam, for 3 mm steel 12 - 18 cm. Rather more than I would have expected. Perhaps some of the foam should go into the ends. That would enforce some payload discipline and keep the ends light, as they should be (in Wooden Boat there was an article about a boat nearly lost when it failed to tack just upwind of a reef because it had too much weight in the ends; with the weight redistributed, the boat tacked just fine). Or make some of your bouyancy be some seriously big fenders that you keep in really secure storage in the ends. Regards Robert Biegler| 1719|1719|2003-05-31 08:31:18|sae140|Flotation/ moderation an' stuff|I get my posts a couple of days late, so the following might no longer be relevant, but I'll post it anyway ..... Here's my take on this issue. I'm all for valuing and respecting the views of others - or at least trying to. In my opinion, fresh ideas, even controversial ones, are always worth airing - but they need to be more-or-less relevant to the principal theme of the group onto which they're posted. If they're not, then perhaps they ought to be taken to a more appropriate site, with a more appreciative audience - or if it's a really BIG issue, mightn't there be a case to start a new site for the sole purpose of airing that particular topic ? As an example, I made reference recently to a MEG generator. This topic has *nothing whatsoever* to do with Origami design or construction, and I was pleased to see that it received a couple of constructive posts, and then hit the dust. Making reference to this topic seemed within the bounds of what might be considered reasonable fodder on almost any boating chat site (if not, then I'm sure someone will tell me). However, had a heated debate ensued, generating a lengthy thread, then I'd have suggested discussing this off-forum, or taking it to another site. Having said this, I do have a certain sympathy with Nadim's efforts. He's clearly woken-up a half-sleeping group with some considerable force(!) - but Nadim - your topic does have that unmistakable taste of armchair theorising about it and, especially as you have said that you're not going to build an Origami hull yourself - or a boat of any kind in the near future - you can hardly expect many on this group to be sympathetic to your cause ! My unsolicited advice is to take this issue - of which you're clearly passionate - to a more appropriate site to chew over, such as BoatDesign. Alternatively, with the courage of your convictions you could simply implement your ideas, then come back and tell us how you got on. I for one would be most interested to hear the results. In closing, I'd like to make a comment about site moderation. A few posts ago Nadim wrote: > I also like the ambiance on this list, no sissies, no designer fuss. Qimple boat, simple people (which I consider myself to be .... Well Nadim, I'm not sure about the sissie stuff, or being simple (these words have subtle nuances in different countries), but I'd like to focus on the 'ambiance' of this list - the nature of which I also like. Q. How do you think this agreeable ambiance has happened - by chance ? No way. It has evolved over many, many months in direct consequence of the moderator's attitude and personality, and from the self-selection of those who have chosen to contribute and then chosen to stay. If you scan through the posts archives you will note that in the past one or two people have come here to argue their respective viewpoints ad nauseam, and have then simply disappeared never to be heard from again. Those that have remained appear to me to be tolerant, non-zealous, respectful of other's views, and share the air-waves with good- naturedness and humour. It is this very ambiance of the site which encourages me to stay. Site moderation can be a tough job - Peter (from BoatDesign) and Alex are both good at this, and rarely intervene or censure - unlike one unnamed individual who rules 'his' site with a rod of iron: argue just once, and you're barred for life ! So c'mon - let's respect Alex's request to wrap-up the Flotation thread ... (and by 'wrap-up' - I mean to agree to disagree, then put this particular book back on the shelf (so to speak) - no doubt to be taken down and opened up on another day). Salaam aleikum Colin| 1720|1672|2003-05-31 08:52:58|nadim|Re: designing boats for safety|Hi Robert, I would have prefered to take a real example with real figures. Never the less, the example is here and I'd like to add the following:. On Saturday 31 May 2003 14:26, batsondbelfrey wrote: > For 5 mm > steel that would be 20 - 30 cm foam, for 3 mm steel 12 - 18 cm. > Rather more than I would have expected. If you calculation where for a real boat, I'd also find that rather big. Add to that that the foam should be place low, that would imply that the foam would be even thicker in the lower parts of the boat. The only solution would be to have it build as an integrated part of the furniture, the floor, ... > Perhaps some of the foam should go into the ends. Bad idea as the ends of the boat are quite high and the flotation present there will be effective only when the boat's deck is aflush water (which is still better than 1000m under) > That would > enforce some payload discipline and keep the ends light, as they > should be (in Wooden Boat there was an article about a boat nearly > lost when it failed to tack just upwind of a reef because it had too > much weight in the ends; with the weight redistributed, the boat > tacked just fine). I gave the example of a Trident 30', a plastic boat, when my co-sailor when to the bow, the boat was completely unsteerable. > Or make some of your bouyancy be some seriously > big fenders that you keep in really secure storage in the ends. I don't like the idea of mobile flotation device. I'd like the boat to be staticaly boyant. But as an extra help, the idea is good. Cheers, Nadim. | 1721|1721|2003-05-31 09:59:44|edward_stoneuk|Unsinkable Boats|ETAP a Belgiam company has made over 6,000 unsinkable yachts which are certified as such by the French Merchant Marine. I cannot get their web page to work but the USA dealer's page, www.etap-usa.com, works. ETAP use a thick foam sandwich between double fiberglass hulls to obtain the required buoyancy. There may be some ideas there. Regards, Ted| 1722|1721|2003-05-31 10:07:04|nadim|Re: Unsinkable Boats|Thanks ted, On Saturday 31 May 2003 15:59, edward_stoneuk wrote: >I cannot get > their web page to work but the USA dealer's page, www.etap-usa.com, > works. The page worked fine for me, there is an intressted picture of a flooded boat with 2 guys standing on it. Nadim. | 1723|1674|2003-05-31 12:06:52|johm gorham|f you and your spam|Iam spending so much time erasing this shitnadim wrote:On Thursday 29 May 2003 21:14, Alex Christie wrote: > Keeping steel afloat if a vessel is awash is not impossible, but with > the foam working hard just to keep the weight of the steel near the > surface of the sea, I am not sure if you'd have any useable living > space below, would you? It all depends of the density of the flooded boat, that's why I have repeatedly written to put most of the floatation in the bilge and asked greg not to take the roof insulation into his account. Let's say you manage to keep 50cm of the boat full of air. That is not a very friendly situation and the risk of hypothermia is high (but lower) but you have the chance of brathing air instead of spray. The weather will calm a day or another, then you have tools, provisions, it will protect you from sun, sea animal, rock bottoms, waves, ..., a (quite) safe life boat (though flooded) a big platform to stand on, one that is more visible than a head or two in the water, You still have the boat and most important 'hope'. People die because they have no hope. Do you think you'll have more hope floating on the boat or without the boat? You also have a possible challenge, repare and survive. What would you do floating around in your life jacket without even a wreck to hold on? I also had the same idea as your friend, using the water tanks as a double hull (among other double hull ideas). My opinion is that is better to have two safety mesures than one. A steel hull with positive boyancy. As noted by another member, you don't need to get a hole in the boat to be flooded. Being wrecked is not a light situation, I have problems understanding why you guys dismiss the positive boyancy and not think about the catastrophy that it would be to float around in open sea. It seems to me I have been answering each and every member of this list and that we have not taken the step that would tell if I am right or wrong. Let's put figures on the problem. Why not choose a boat and make the calculation for the extra foam needed to keep it afloat, say at 70 % of it's normal height. In thousands of years, we have taken the risk of sailing on sinkable boats, the boats designers and user have a huge inertia, it's tough to make any change. I just can't accept putting my beloved lifes at risk just because the consensus is that steel (or other) boats sink when flooded. And I find it staight dangerous to think steel is the ultimate solution because of it's strength. Cheers, Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1724|1671|2003-05-31 12:09:03|johm gorham|Re: designing for boat safety|Please take me off you list.i am cruising.My budget cannnot afford to keep erasing these messages..Thanks Graeme Mitchell wrote:Steve Yes i was like when Jaws was a new movie it put a lot of people of swimming in the ocean . With Alex,s comments on crash barriers in water tanks in the bow etc . I think that would be a better plan to include some of these features in a Boat when building as a first line defence, as his friend built in place instead of half assed filling lockers with rubbish and hope the hell it saves you . New member I would like to welcome Greg and i have some Question s for him as well 1. Was your boat built in PNG -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, May 30, 2003 04:40:47 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: designing for boat safety Another version of the same quote: "He that will not sail 'til all dangers are over must never put out to sea." -Thomas Fuller [Given his era: 1654 - 1734, I suspect 'must' could be translated to the modern 'will'.] I'm reminded of when Adlard Cole's coffee-table-book "Heavy Weather Sailing" came out. A large number of sailing friends that read it scraped their cruising plans and decided that they would never go to sea. I think it is significant that it was published as a "coffee-table-book". sae140 wrote: > I read the quote as simply being a reminder that the sea is a > fundamentally dangerous environment and that you put your life (and > those of others) at risk each and every time you set sail. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1725|1711|2003-05-31 13:00:49|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Alex's protocols of moderation|Looks like we've woken a few people up! First, I'd like to say thank you to all the people in this group. It has certainly been a lively discussion and I consider it a great welcome. I have a commercial interest in origami boats, and thus a conflict of interests to some degree. If I wasn't willing to take a few on the chin I'd never have joined the group. As they say, all press is good, even when its bad! I might make one suggestion to help Alex out, then I'll turn it back to Alex for some direction. When making a post, if you write your piece complete, from beginning to end it has the look of a discussion. If you write your comments in the middle of someone else's email it has the look of debate or argument. I think - other opinions welcome here - that groups in general make faster progress when engaged in discussion. Debate and argument lend themselves too quickly to politics and egos, and the point of the discussion can be lost. When you have a losing argument, you can still win a debate, simply by making the other person look foolish. Politicians use this technique all the time. It is quite simple to select a single sentence from almost any email and find fault with it. I could do it with just about any email I have read here in this group, but why would I do it? I'm not here to prove anyone right or wrong. I'm here to motivate people to get out sailing. To help you overcome the obstacles in your path, in the hope that in doing so some of you might consider our designs. When you take someone's email as a whole, the entire picture as it were, not just a couple of brush strokes, then you are talking to the idea the person is trying to get across, not how they wrote it. Language is at best an imperfect tool of communication, and we shouldn't be looking at the brush stokes. Let's look at the bigger picture - the idea each writer is trying to make. So, I'd like to propose that we post replies and ideas in whole, and not within the body of other people's posting. Sure, sometimes it is necessary to reference a previous email. It is a simple matter to cut and past the occasional quote when required, but this should be done with caution because you risk being misunderstood. In general, if replies are written start to finish in a block I think we will find that the topics move much quicker. This proposal is not made without some experience in email. In business I've written thousands of emails. I find it is really tough to write email without it appearing to have a hidden meaning. Email is a new medium and it is still evolving. I find one of the quickest ways to kill a deal and get someone's hackles up is to pick apart their email with my own comments and criticisms. thanks again, Greg ps: I have answers, including the numbers, for the questions that have been asked on floatation. I have no objections to posting them, to the degree they will not be misleading. If I don't answer questions right away it is usually because some background information must be presented before the answer will make sense. The modern sailing yacht is an evolution of a design going back over 100 years, built up over many years of practical experience, of what works and what doesn't. Many of the compromises made in designing a yacht only make sense in light of that practical experience, so to explain why something on a yacht is the way it is, it is necessary to explain the experiences that led to each design decision. When looking at a yacht, you must keep in mind that a yacht is simply a machine to keep you alive while crossing over water. You must look at this machine as a whole before the components will make sense. I'm reminded of the story of Jack London. He had a boat built - the Snark - that was based on his own design ideas. He selected the best bow from one boat, the best stern from another, and the best rig from yet another. The boat was a disaster. If all the parts of a boat do not work together as a whole to produce a complete machine, you will not have a good boat. It is very possible to take an average bow, and average stern, and in fact an average everything, and come up with a great boat. However, it is even easier to take the best bow, the best stern, and in fact the best of everything and come up with a very bad boat. Perfection is the enemy of Good. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1726|1721|2003-05-31 13:14:34|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Unsinkable Boats|Life is full of compromises isn't it? You can have a lightweight unsinkable boat that can burn like a candle and be crushed by almost anything it touches that isn't water. Or you can have a boat that can take a broadside from a freighter, or run over a reef, but it'll be slower and it could still sink like a rock. The guys out cruising have flipped the coin and are living with it. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Unsinkable Boats > ETAP a Belgiam company has made over 6,000 unsinkable yachts which > are certified as such by the French Merchant Marine. I cannot get > their web page to work but the USA dealer's page, www.etap-usa.com, > works. ETAP use a thick foam sandwich between double fiberglass > hulls to obtain the required buoyancy. There may be some ideas there. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1727|1711|2003-05-31 13:17:23|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Alex's protocols of moderation|I have to say that a reply interspersed with the original post is very annoying. It doesn't read nearly as well as a couple of good thought out paragraphs. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Alex's protocols of moderation > > > Looks like we've woken a few people up! > > > > First, I'd like to say thank you to all the people in this group. It has certainly been a lively discussion and I consider it a great welcome. > > > > I have a commercial interest in origami boats, and thus a conflict of interests to some degree. If I wasn't willing to take a few on the chin I'd never have joined the group. As they say, all press is good, even when its bad! I might make one suggestion to help Alex out, then I'll turn it back to Alex for some direction. > > > > When making a post, if you write your piece complete, from beginning to end it has the look of a discussion. If you write your comments in the middle of someone else's email it has the look of debate or argument. I think - other opinions welcome here - that groups in general make faster progress when engaged in discussion. > Snipped | 1728|1672|2003-05-31 13:38:56|jeff_halp|Re: designing boats for safety|I have been a lurker and some time contibuter to this forum almost from its inception and have been amazed at the wide range of ideas that have gotten floated here. I have seen widely ranging discussions on some wild topics but one thing that has generally impressed me is that these discussions have generally remained comparatively gentile without Alex having to step in and ask for a return to a civil decorum. I respect Alex's request for decorum. I also respect the request for more specific information about the practicallity of providing positive floatation for a specific boat. Hopefully this will be specific enough. To start with a graphic image of how much floatation would be required to keep a boat afloat, I suggest using a closed cell foam, which would be one of the more efficient methods of providing flotation since it does not absorb water and it does not have spaces that fill with water like the gaps between bottles. Depending on the particular closed cell foam, the density of the foam is appoximately 3 to 6% of the density of water. So in order to float a boat you would need to fill the boat with enough foam to equal the volume of the boat that is in the water plus 3% to 6% to accomodate the difference in volume between the foam and the water. In graphic terms it would mean filling the entire volume of the boat with foam to perhaps 8 inches to a foot above the waterline (to accommodate the volumes of the keels and rudder which can't be filled). Obviously that approach is a bad idea but it gives an easily visualizeable sense of what is involved in providing 'full floatation'. If we take a more specific example, and since I do not have a set of drawings for an Oragami boat, I will use a design of my own, which is an 18,500 lb, 40 footer. To begin with this fully loaded this boat would displace roughly 290 cu ft of water and would require roughly 300 cu/ft of foam to carry the full weight. Of course, the foam does not have to carry the full weight of the boat. Even of we look at the worst case scenario there are certain weights that foam would not have to carry. These would include: Water in the tanks: Fresh water is lighter than seawater but then there is the weight of the tank which I am assuming will wipe out any floatation derived from this difference in density. This particular design carries roughly 160 gallons of fresh water so we can subtract roughly 1400 lbs for the water tank weight. Waste holding tank: 35 gallons which will weigh roughly 300 lbs. Fuel in tanks: This design carries roughly 53 gallons of diesel fuel which would weigh roughly 450 lbs which would result in less than 10 lbs of floatation which is not enough to float the 29 lb aluminum tank that is being used in this design. Wooden interior components: This design has a variety of interior furnishings that were intended to be constructed in mahogany and fir marine plywood with mahogany trim. Combined the wooden elements of this design equal roughly 29 cubic feet of material. Using 50 lbs per cubic foot as an average weight between species of fir, mahogany, and the teak faced cabin sole that means that the interior will weigh something on the order of 1,450 lbs. and will contribute roughly 400 lbs of floatation. Cushions, life jackets and other than lighter than water components that might float free and therefore not add to the weight of the boat that needs to be buoyed by the floatation of the boat: I come up with roughly 400 lbs of these miscellaneous items. There may be other elements that would contribute to floatation or have neutral buoyancy but they don't come to mind. (The boat in question is actually a cold molded cedar hull with kevlar outer skins so there would be approximately 480 lbs of buoyancy from the hull as well) So if we go back to the vessel in question, starting with the fully loaded weight of 18,500 lbs and subtracting the 4,000 lbs of items listed above, we come up with the need for 14,500 in floatation. (The boat in question is actually a cold-molded cedar hull with kevlar outer skins so there would be approximately 480 lbs of buoyancy from the hull as well but since you are considering steel hulls ) If we further subtract the 400 lbs of floatation contributed by the interior wooden components then we need roughly 14,100 lbs of floatation or roughly 220 cubic feet of foam. Seen in profile, this particular design has an profile area of 192 square feet. This profile area does not include the area of the keel or rudder, and stops 6" below the bridge deck since I assume that we want to keep the bridge deck above water to prevent downflooding. In loose terms just for the purposes of visualization, then you would need thickness of 1'-2" of foam or 7" on each side of the boat. Of course that would really cut down on the interior volume tremendously and so it is unlikely that the foam would be distributed in that manner. Instead, some of the foam would be distributed on the underside of bunk flats, countertops, and concealed faced bulkheads. Assuming a nominal 1 1/2" thickness for the foam used in that manner I come up with roughly 26 cubic feet of foam installed in that manner. and leaves us needing to find room to stash roughly 194 cubic feet of foam. There is approximately 432 square feet of skin area again not including the area of the keel or rudder, and stopping roughly 6" below the bridge deck. This corresponds to somewhere between an 3/4" to 1" of low density closed cell foam per square foot of skin area, or more realistically 1 1/2" of foam for those areas not in the bilge or occupied by faming materials. That is a lot of volume to take out of a boat but not so terrible if you really fear sinking to the extent that Nadim has expressed. A few more points here. This is a comparatively light weight design for a 40 foot offshore boat. Rendered in steel and of a similar concept this design would probably be closer to 24,000 to 28,000 lbs in weight. Given that tankage and interior build out would be similar, and skin area would not increase all that much the foam would probably need to be closer to 2 to 2.5 inches to float a steel hulled boat, still not terrible if that is where your priorities lie. Lastly, going back to the title of this string, "designing boats for safety" you would not be building this boat in steel. Once again confirming what 'the numbers'would suggest, a recent Naval Academy study showed that the greatest impact and abrasion resistance for a given weight or cost of construction is acheived by specific composite laminates. The highest impact resistance per dollar and also by weight was actually achieved by a lay of a matless laminate of biaxial fiberglass over a high density foam core. When abrasion was factored in adding kevlar outer laminates produced the best results from impact and abrasion. Because of its high weight per volume, and I know you guys hate to hear this steel, did not fair as well. As I have said here before, if you are paying retail prices for materials and you are actually including a reasonable rate of pay toward the value of your labor, composite construction gets very competitive. While Origami construction does save a time in lofting and producing the hull, much of this time is offset by the additional time involved in spiling all of the interior components involved in a Origami boat rather than laying them out off of patterns as would be done in a cold molded boat. So back to Nadim, if you say that sinking is not an option then I would suggest that you consider building a composite hull with kevlar outer skins and a high density foam or a cold molded cedar core. Respectfully, Jeff| 1729|1672|2003-05-31 14:01:07|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: designing boats for safety|One more point about my last post, the Vinylester resin found to produce the highest impact resistance is the same material used in motorcyle and military helmits where the highest possible impact resistance is really needed. It is also non-flamable and resistant to very high temperatures. As it turns out, although this material is a little more expensive than conventional polyester resins, it is used in so much higher quantities than polyester that it actually is reasonably priced and would not add appreciably to the cost of a project such as we are discussing. Respectfully, Jeff| 1730|1674|2003-05-31 14:05:17|Peter Thompson|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Hi folks, All those who haven't had their fill of the floatation discussion are welcome to continue it on the boatbuilding.community discussion forums at http://boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/designtalk.cgi Cheers, peter Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1731|104|2003-05-31 14:24:08|sae140|Paint|Having talked with Ted Stone on the phone a couple of evenings ago, my attention has been drawn to painting matters, especially primers. I've done a quick web search today for info on steel primers, and the amount of choice is overwhelming ... so ... which paint to go for ? Ted is using a zinc-rich primer, which is also favoured by Brent. In his book B.S. relates some bad experiences when acid-based primers were used. OK so far - but just when I think that zinc-rich is the way to go, I read that Brent has also blasted back to white metal and applied epoxy-tar (without zinc primer) with very successful results (i.e. OK for 17+ years). Then there's Zinc Phosphate, Zinc Chromate, Zinc Silicate - sometimes with an epoxy base, which are all used as steel primers in corrosive environments. These appear less expensive than straight zinc, but would this saving be a false economy ? And then there's aluminium primer, chorinated rubber, chlorinated zinc phosphate ... how's a person supposed to make an informed decision with so much choice about, and with each company trying it's best to flog you their product ? As I understand it, using a zinc-rich primer offers the next best form of protection to that of galvanising, with all the others providing second-best options. And just as I've got that sorted-out, I read on "The Zinc Rich Primer Info Page" http://www.epoxyproducts.com/zinc.html that if any of the various layers of protection are to be omitted, it should be the zinc-rich primer layer ..... Aaaargh !!! If anyone else has plotted a course through this particular minefield, would you mind sharing the info ?? Thanks. Colin [a.k.a. "Confused of Boston"]| 1732|1672|2003-05-31 16:20:28|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: designing boats for safety|To Jeff's well research and well thought out work I'd like to add this example in steel: WARNING. Do not use these number to build an "unsinkable" hull. They are a very rough estimate done off the top of my head. Apologies to all. I have included this final work as a courtesy to Nadim and any of the group wishing to do their own calculations. An origami 36ft aft cockpit steel yacht is going to be about 10 tons displacement. I don't have Brent's figures, but this should be close. Cruising boats are often overloaded - especially when restocking for an extended passage - waterlines are repainted higher pretty regularly. So if you are going to be cruising, you have to allow for this in your calculations. Isn't overloading dangerous? You bet, but so is running out of fuel, food, and water. Or having no spares or tools in case of breakdown. When you are cruising you buy stores when you can find them and carry the weight until you need them, or many places will not be available to you. You can allow for overloading when cruising by careful loading. Place all heavy objects as low as possible amidships to helps stiffen it up, so the sails can carry the extra weight. We can't put the floatation down low - that is where you need to leave room to put the heavy stores if you plan on extended passage making. Where can we put it? If you have been on an extended cruise you know you can't put it in the lockers, they are jammed to overflowing, and probably everywhere else as well. We could put it in the ends, but how much would we need? From my previous figures about 330 cubic feet. Jeff is quite right that we can subtract the buoyancy of the items on the inside. At the same time you may need to add in the weight of stores, spares, tools, etc, and leave a reserve. I'd likely error on the side of safety and assume that the interior at best will be neutral. A detailed calculation would be required before you could rely on this. So say 300 cu ft, reserve unknown. How much room would this take in the ends? A V berth might be (5x3)x6x6 = 4x6x6 = 150 cubic feet, including the locker under. So, filling the V berth with foam, from keel to deck will get us half way there. How about a quarterberth at the other end. Maybe 3x6x4 = 75 cubic feet including the lockers under, or 150 cubic feet for both. So, if we fill the V berth and quarterberths with foam, including the lockers under, the yacht may be in the ball park to float. Since the crew is not going to like this solution, one alternative is to replace the foam with watertight bulkheads, though it is hard to do in this size of boat. Another alternative, you could put the foam in a wedge along the hull sides. Thinnest at the waterline, thickest just under the decks. How big a wedge? 150 cubic feet a side/30 foot waterline = 5 cubic feet/4 foot freeboard, say 1.25 feet average thickness. This is not going to make the crew happy either. Your interior space dimensions will have shrunk considerably. Your 36 boat on the outside will be more like a 25-30 foot boat on the inside. A reverse Tardis. This is the cost of adding foam. Not the price of the foam itself (which isn't cheap), but rather having paid to build a 36 foot boat, you end up with one on the inside that is closer to a 25-30 foot boat. The difference in price between a 36 footer and a 30 footer is considerable. This is why it is rarely done on a ballasted boat. Not that it hasn't been tried, just that it hasn't on balance been found to be a cost effective solution. note: you may be able to improve on these figures by moving some foam around but not a whole lot. Another alternative is to make the boat beamier, but this can introduce capsize and other problems. greg elliott yacht lazy bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1733|104|2003-05-31 16:48:09|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Zinc rich coatings are popular above the waterline. There is some thought that they may contribute to blistering under the water. From my experience the important points are: 1. A super clean sand blast in dry weather using the correct grit, with the first application of paint airless sprayed as quickly as possible. 2. A paint system from a name brand company that will stand behind the paint if it fails. 3. More coats of paint rather than less. Paint ages, and while two coats might last 5 years it won't last 20. 5 coats might go 20. Some of those should probably be high build. In all painting on steel the #1 key to success is getting the steel absolutely clean, with sufficient "tooth" to make the paint stick. Any spec of rust, grit, etc under the paint at eventually it will fail at that point. The problem with paint systems is that they tend to be expensive. You can save a lot with a "home grown" paint system, but you really need to know what you are doing. There is still a lot of Voodoo in painting. It is usually worth the extra $$ to go with a reputable system just in case. Generally I try and put a high build mastic type epoxy on first underwater, followed by multiple layers of coal tar epoxy, but that has a lot to do with what is available in the areas I sail. Paint can be applied in this fashion: epoxy on steel or epoxy vinyl on steel, epoxy of vinyl rubber on steel, vinyl, epoxy or rubber. For price on a homegrown system you might check in Everet. They used to have a lot of surplus paints years back. The US navy at one time used an epoxy we called Green Death. You could beat it with a hammer and it wouldn't crack. Took forever to sand blast off. International 201, 207 or 217 maybe. If I could start from scratch with that stuff I would take a long look at it. Paint has a really bad habit of failing on the deck where ever you drop something on it. The Green Death didn't have that problem. (It was a high build green primer). My boat was originally painted with (I think) Silver Primacon (International) underwater which held up quite well. Later Devoe, which was OK, but not as damage resistant. Vinyl Tar is good for repairs between blasts under the water (hull must be dry to apply, but it dries within the tide and sticks to less than perfect steel (for about 1 year). greg elliott yacht lazy bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1734|104|2003-05-31 17:17:50|Stephen Wandling|Re: Paint|Thanks to Greg for the great report. Just a couple of comments from the notes I have taken here over the years: Regarding "as quickly as possible" below, I am informed that you have to coat within 4 hours of achieving white metal in normal conditions, or you risk surface rust starting. I have also been informed that a second coat of epoxy should go on when the first coat is just tacky. Apparently there are compounds that you can apply later if the first coat dries, that will 'soften' it appropriately, but I have heard mixed comments on this. As an old US Navy guy I can remember the chipping hammer and red lead paint as being ubiquitous. I don't remember "green death" though, and would like to know if there is a more technical name and/or if it is still available. I did find the following on a naval site when I was searching: First the paint is chipped away from any rust spots with a chipping hammer and a wire brush. After that a coat of red colored rust inhibitor known as 'red death' is applied. After that a coat of green called 'green death' is applied. After they are dry a coat of paint is applied to match the color scheme of the vessel. info@... wrote: > 1. A super clean sand blast in dry weather using the correct grit, > with the first application of paint airless sprayed as quickly as > possible. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1735|104|2003-05-31 17:19:00|edward_stoneuk|Re: Paint|Colin, Greg et al, I am using Zinga a Belgian zinc primer on our Brent 36' mainly because I have good experience of it, in industrial use in a previous existence. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Provided the substrate is clean, rough enough and totally degreased then it is easy to apply in all sorts of conditions and very effective. We have only done the interior so far. I haven't chosen the topcoats yet. If the topcoats are tough enough not to be broken, and some seem to be, then I should think that one does not need a zinc primer only good adhesion to the substrate. I guess my choosing a zinc primer is in expectation that the application of the topcoats may be less than perfect. Regards, Ted| 1736|104|2003-05-31 18:13:12|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|I think some epoxies are OK to recoat when hard, others not. I'm talking here about epoxy on epoxy. I would not trust to repaint a shiny epoxy like coal tar when hard, but having said that I've painted over old coal tar inside the boat with mastic high build without any concern. Below the water you have to be super careful. Above the waterline it is so much easier to make paint stick. Normally the manufacturer spec sheet gives good details on this, and is where I start with any paint. If they say the steel must be 3.0 clean, believe them. When trying to put a vinyl bottom paint on epoxy the epoxy should not be tacky, but should mark with the thumb nail. You do have to be careful here. I've had vinyl bottom paints with so much solvent in them that they peeled the soft epoxy right off - you can imagine the disaster this is. After the epoxies have been out in the sun for awhile they chalk, and a good water blast to remove the chalk seems to be adequate. I'm talking above the waterline here. 4 hours after blasting is probably just a number. The sooner the better. It depends on the atmospheric conditions, which are not typically very dry on the coast. Blast, air gun the hull in case the blast kicked up some dirt, airless the first coat. After that you can use a roller if it saves a few $$. You have to be a little careful with rollers, they can trap pockets of air if the paint sets up too quick. There is no problem that I am aware of in blasting and painting in sections, as long as you are careful on the overlaps. There is a bit of waste obviously doing this, but on a big boat it may be required. The grit is very important. If someone uses beach sand you will have to repaint within a year or two. Worth doing some research on this topic so you know if the guy on the blaster is doing the job you need. Some epoxies dry faster than others. Generally I have seen that the slower drying epoxies are softer but stick better (the high build mastics) while the faster drying epoxies (coal tar) are harder but more demanding. Coal tar is general thought to be less susceptible to osmosis than the softer epoxies. Steel hull can get osmosis between the steel and the paint. You may want to research this question. I'm not sure if the jury is back on the causes. I've had people say to use epoxy directly on the steel underwater. Other say put on a high build first, then follow with coal tar. I suspect it all comes down to preparation. The first system will require the steel to be cleaner than the second. Coal tar is cheap so it is attractive in that respect. This is the voodoo area. Keeping paint on steel underwater is probably one of the least understood aspects of steel boat construction - or should I say the thing that is not understood is this - why does the paint only stick if the steel is sand blasted? Grinders above water for paint repairs are OK. Underwater they fail more often than they succeed. There are not a substitute for blasting. Acid etch? I've had no success there. Probably because it attracts moisture. I think the green death might have been International 201, but it has been a long time. I do remember one green death steel boat hitting a concrete dock in Hawaii. The hull rang like a bell, and we couldn't find a mark on the paint. That really opened my eyes, because normally that would peel the paint down to the steel. That boat was painted with green death right on blasted steel - the owner built the boat in a small yard in Everet, which is how I heard you could get the paint there - this was 1987 so who can say now. Unfortunately, all the wooden boats in Hawaii were painted with the same stuff because it was so cheap. $25 US/ 5 gal. They had survived for years on oil based paints. Within a couple of years they were all gone from dry rot, the epoxy had sealed the wood to the point where no moisture could escape. The Green Death. g. ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Wandling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint Thanks to Greg for the great report. Just a couple of comments from the notes I have taken here over the years: Regarding "as quickly as possible" below, I am informed that you have to coat within 4 hours of achieving white metal in normal conditions, or you risk surface rust starting. I have also been informed that a second coat of epoxy should go on when the first coat is just tacky. Apparently there are compounds that you can apply later if the first coat dries, that will 'soften' it appropriately, but I have heard mixed comments on this. As an old US Navy guy I can remember the chipping hammer and red lead paint as being ubiquitous. I don't remember "green death" though, and would like to know if there is a more technical name and/or if it is still available. I did find the following on a naval site when I was searching: First the paint is chipped away from any rust spots with a chipping hammer and a wire brush. After that a coat of red colored rust inhibitor known as 'red death' is applied. After that a coat of green called 'green death' is applied. After they are dry a coat of paint is applied to match the color scheme of the vessel. info@... wrote: > 1. A super clean sand blast in dry weather using the correct grit, > with the first application of paint airless sprayed as quickly as > possible. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1737|104|2003-06-01 10:11:26|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Hi Ted, The Lazy Bones was wheel abraded and primed with weldable primer. I didn't do the welding, but as I recall Ron told me he kept a can of weldable primer at hand during the welding, and touched up the primer as welding progressed. Using this technique the Lazy Bones did not need to be blasted inside after construction. The existing primer was left in place. She was foamed from the second stringer upwards, and epoxied over the primer downwards. The foam on primer has worked well for 20 years - no maintenance required. I cut back inspection areas in the foam every couple of years just to make sure everything is OK. I have overcoated the paint in the bilges a couple of times as the paint has aged. Except for some small problem areas like the shower sump in the head no maintenance has been required. A word of caution about wood. Wood, steel and salt do not mix. Where practical, I would use SS tabs to hold any wood away from the steel, especially near the bilges. Otherwise, I have found that a thick layer of caulking between any steel and wood limits any problems. Paint the steel, paint the wood, then when dry assemble with lots of caulking in between. Outside the Bones was blasted and painted normally. I try and keep some 1 part paint handy for touch ups because it is convenient. It is much easier to repair paint if you can get some primer on the damaged area immediately. Using 2 part paint for a touch up is extra work, and usually results in waste, meaning it is less likely to get done before the damaged area has rusted. Once rusted the grinder must come out, which is even less likely. The only wood I have outside is for seats in the cockpit and stern section. Steel is hard and cold to sit on. Cushions blow overboard regularly. Some wood strategically placed in the cockpit can make a huge difference. I have a 2x12 across the pushpit as a seating area in the tropics. Sitting low in the cockpit out of the breeze can be too hot. Everyone sits up on the coamings, which makes a piece of wood on the coamings a good idea. A permanent awning over the cockpit, that can be left in place while sailing completes the picture. I built our awning out of PVC pipe and shade cloth 10 years ago, and it is still going strong. Thick walled PVC is a handy building material and it holds up well in the tropics. The advantage of shade cloth is that you can see the sails through it, and the wind will pass thru in storms - it doesn't flap. However, it doesn't stop the rain so it can't be used as a rain catcher. In the tropics a permanent awning over the cockpit is a mandatory piece of survival gear. It must be permanent. Not something you take down while sailing. It will improve your enjoyment of the boat 1000%. You can sit outside all day long and not worry about sunburn. Magic. regards, Greg. ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 2:18 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Paint Colin, Greg et al, I am using Zinga a Belgian zinc primer on our Brent 36' mainly because I have good experience of it, in industrial use in a previous existence. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. Provided the substrate is clean, rough enough and totally degreased then it is easy to apply in all sorts of conditions and very effective. We have only done the interior so far. I haven't chosen the topcoats yet. If the topcoats are tough enough not to be broken, and some seem to be, then I should think that one does not need a zinc primer only good adhesion to the substrate. I guess my choosing a zinc primer is in expectation that the application of the topcoats may be less than perfect. Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1738|1738|2003-06-01 20:13:24|robertgm36|paint|The reason paint will stick infinitely better after sandblasting is the steel surface in this case, same principal with glass , has been made into a microscopic surface of pits with jagged not smooth edges. Wheel abrading is more smooth and works fine on the inside of your boat but is unlikely to last as long outside . The paint gets under these jagged edges and is trapped .If you have ever tried to clean fingerprints off sandblasted glass you will know it is next to impossible . Only further etching with sand seems to work. This is the desirable effect we want on steel with paint. The advice about checking what is being blasted on your boat is very important.Never let anyone use re-cycled sand on your boat . Only use clean new grit.Sandblasting is so intense the surface is heated enough for particles to stick .Would you want salt stuck to your bare steel from beach sand or who knows what from used grit? International paints are still available, not sure about the green stuff mentioned. The Metal Boat Society most recent two newsletters has excellent articles on this subject. Robert| 1739|1738|2003-06-01 20:24:55|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: paint|Hi Robert, I agree with you re: blasting versus wheel abraded. The Bones was designed to go around the world for the lowest cost, in a 10 year timeframe. Everything was designed with this in mind, just like a car. Thus, we saved some costs by not blasting inside. However, plans changed and we are happy to say that the boat has doubled the original designed life cycle with no sign that it won't go another 20. regards, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: robertgm36 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 5:13 PM Subject: [origamiboats] paint The reason paint will stick infinitely better after sandblasting is the steel surface in this case, same principal with glass , has been made into a microscopic surface of pits with jagged not smooth edges. Wheel abrading is more smooth and works fine on the inside of your boat but is unlikely to last as long outside . The paint gets under these jagged edges and is trapped .If you have ever tried to clean fingerprints off sandblasted glass you will know it is next to impossible . Only further etching with sand seems to work. This is the desirable effect we want on steel with paint. The advice about checking what is being blasted on your boat is very important.Never let anyone use re-cycled sand on your boat . Only use clean new grit.Sandblasting is so intense the surface is heated enough for particles to stick .Would you want salt stuck to your bare steel from beach sand or who knows what from used grit? International paints are still available, not sure about the green stuff mentioned. The Metal Boat Society most recent two newsletters has excellent articles on this subject. Robert Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1740|1740|2003-06-02 02:26:33|universalcatt|some questions...|hello, im new here had some questions concerning origami steel boats 1]whats the range of cost to build your own 36 footer? materials wise. 2}Could somebody with no experience building with steel handle the job? Lots of welding? 2} how old is the oldest origamiboat around, and how is it doing? what problems have shown up? thanks| 1741|1740|2003-06-02 13:06:05|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: some questions...|1. The materials required to build an origami steel boat are not significantly different than building by conventional techniques. 2. The lofting, cutting and welding required to make an origami boat is significantly less than conventional techniques, which is the attraction of the process. Importantly, origami construction requires considerably less skill to achieve a pleasing boat shape than building by conventional means, making it suitable for amateur construction. Conventional metal boat construction is a highly skilled process, not well suited to amateur construction. Steel welding is not difficult with some practice. Boat welding requires the addition of a bit of patience and attention to detail, to minimize distortion. The equipment is not expensive and a perfectly acceptable boat can be built in the open air with a minimum of equipment. 3. I know of origami boats in excess of 20 years old still going strong. I know of no special problems with the technique. With regular maintenance the lifetime of a steel hull can be expected to exceed by a considerable degree the lifetime of the engine, sails, rigging, etc. under even the most extreme conditions. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones ----- Original Message ----- From: universalcatt To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] some questions... hello, im new here had some questions concerning origami steel boats 1]whats the range of cost to build your own 36 footer? materials wise. 2}Could somebody with no experience building with steel handle the job? Lots of welding? 2} how old is the oldest origamiboat around, and how is it doing? what problems have shown up? thanks Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1742|1674|2003-06-02 14:09:58|nelstomlinson|Re: wrapping up the floatation thread|Hi, Alex, I think that I may have started this mess in the first place: I noticed that enough foam to keep me warm in a worst case winter would just about float the boat when swamped. I wondered if anyone else had thought about it, and away we went. To help avoid turning this into a positive floatation list, I'll propose the following: anyone who is interested in discussing the TECHNICAL aspects of achieving positive floatation in origami and other boats can send their thoughts to this email address: origamiboats at member dot fsf dot org. I'll read them, and forward them (within a few days) to anyone else who has sent in email to that address. I'm not sure how much there is left to say, but I'll keep this up as long as the burden stays managable. Again, the assumption is that you accept that positive floatation is an interesting idea; the discussion on this proposed email list is to be about HOW. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie" wrote: > Dear group, > > Speaking as moderator, I think it is time to wrap up the floatation > issue (before it sinks:-), and I think we've already concluded that > the level of safety preparedness is largely a matter of personal > choice, guided by experience. There are a diversity of approaches, > ranging all the way from foaming, yachtsaver, and watertight > bulkheads. Beyond those steps, there are few other options, other > than staying ashore. The main question Nadim was looking to answer > is, I believe, "what does it take to keep one of these boats afloat > if flooded?" I asked Brent about it once, and he had the numbers for > thickness of foam you'd need to keep the thing afloat. So, when he > returns this summer he may be able to address that question, or if > anyone else has this information at hand they are welcome to post it. > > Onto the next questions! > > Alex | 1743|1740|2003-06-03 03:18:16|sae140|Re: some questions...|"universalcatt" recently asked: 1]whats the range of cost to build your own 36 footer? materials wise. There are some very rough costings in the posts archives. As Greg suggests, the cost of the materials for an origami-build is not so very different from using conventional techniques. The real saving comes about not from the materials themselves, but from the time saved from not having to loft-out and construct frames, from the absence of fairing, and from the reduced amount of hull welding involved. The actual cost will depend on where in the world you're based, availability of steel, and your skills as a scrounger .... Blasting and paint can be surprisingly expensive, so don't overlook these when costing. 2}Could somebody with no experience building with steel handle the job? Lots of welding? I'm in the same situation, so feel well-qualified to answer this. Those who are competent welders will tell you that it's easy with practice - but so will musicians and plasterers. It's fairly easy to stick metal together with a welder, but I'd suggest you make lots of test pieces first, and destructively test 'em to check for penetration and slag *before* you consider starting a boat build. Control of the weld pool is essential, and it can take a long time to master this. I'm still working on it. Lots of people claim to be able to weld, but can't. My local garage employs several. There have been reports on this forum of welds cracking when the sheets have been pulled together. That concerns me, for it suggests that the metal has been stuck together, but not welded. There's a difference. I wouldn't buy a second-hand steel boat (of any kind of construction) unless I was happy about the weld quality, and *** appearance means nothing ***. The only way to know if you have the aptitude for welding is to try it, and maybe take a basics course at a local college. If, like me, you've no previous experience of steel fabrication, I'd suggest you find someone who's building in this material, and help out for a couple of days. You could trade a couple of hours welding tuition in exchange for your time. You'll also find out first-hand just how noisy and dirty working with steel can be (relevant if you have neighbours), and just how heavy steel plate is, and the techniques used for moving this stuff around. Can come as a surprise if you're only used to working with wood and plastic. Wear protective footwear as well as eye protection, and be kind to your back. Colin| 1744|1744|2003-06-03 15:42:21|prairiemaidca|I think I can I think I can....|Hi All: On the subject of who can build one and who can't. I'm a firm believer that there are two kinds of people in the world. Those that talk about something and those that actually make it happen. I went the route of taking a course in basic welding and cutting from a high school in Edmonton on weekends. I think the instructor thought that I was nut's once he understood the enormity of the project that I wished to undertake. I happen to have a neighbour who is a very skilled pro welder and more than willing to help with any welding questions I can dream up. I also am very lucky to have a best friend who owns a large machine shop and is very supportive of the boat project. I keep telling everyone that I wasn't a welder when I started but by the time all is said and done I'll be fairly good at most aspects of basic welding of mild and stainless steel. My friend gave me some good advise when I got started and that was to build some of the items that you might need for the project. Eg. a good cutting table with a large vice on it. A dolly for the welder so you can move it around easier. By making some of these types of things before you actually try to build a boat you will gain some practice and incite into wether you really want to tackle a project of this size. I'm now at the stage of putting the cabin and pilot house roofs on so Prairie Maid is really starting to look like a boat. I've tried to meet with as many owners/builders as I can and I personally believe that it is the best thing you can do prior to and while building. Not an easy chore out here in Alberta. Their insight and experience is something that even the best naval design teams sometimes lack. I like to ask the owner what would you change if you were doing it over again and it's amazing the little tips you can pick up from those that have gone before. Well enough rambling and more boat building.. Martin and Betty(Prairie Maid)| 1745|104|2003-06-03 23:45:50|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: Paint|a dumb question, will coal tar harden in an airless sprayer? if left for 2 days before repaint? Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1746|104|2003-06-04 02:15:18|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|ho, ho, ho. At first it sounded like you might be pulling our legs. Why would anyone leave paint in the sprayer for 2 days? However, it you are asking this in earnest it means you are probably only familiar with 1 part paints. Coal tar is a generic name for coal tar epoxy. The term "epoxy" does not mean that the paint is some sort of a glue. The term epoxy means the paint is a 2 part paint. One part is "coal tar" and the other is a hardener. (there are lots of variations). The hardener takes the place of the air (or moisture) in the chemical reaction that hardens the paint. Until mixed they normally won't harden, thus can be stored even in the tropics for quite awhile. When using epoxies it is typical to mix the paint, wait about 30 minutes for the chemical reaction to get going, and then apply the paint. If you don't wait, you risk that the paint will never harden - especially true if the paint is old. I normally wait a bit longer with older paint just in case. However, if you wait too long the paint will get too thick to use. You can thin the paint, but caution is required because thinners can weaken the paint. The advantage of epoxies is that they harden predictably even when applied very thick. A thick layer of paint tends to provides better protection against corrosion (to a point) than a thin layer. (every paint has an optimum thickness - different for different paints). Depending on the temperature and type of paint, once mixed, you may have about 1-4 hours "pot life". Beyond that any unused paint can only be thrown away. You absolutely cannot pour the unused paint back in the tin after it has been mixed, it will contaminate the unmixed paint!! Airless sprayers have air in them -- they just don't use air to deliver the paint. The term "airless" means the sprayer uses a high pressure mechanical pump to "push" the paint out through the nozzle. Sort of like a very fast squirt gun. If you don't run solvent through the sprayer after use, it will probably be the last time you use the sprayer. Conventional sprayers use compressed air to "suck" the paint out through the nozzle. The same principle as used in a carburetor to mix air and gasoline. These sprayers are better suited to 1 part paints that dry with air. They don't like thick paint (epoxies can be quite thick) and they might trap air in the paint, leaving an avenue for corrosion or osmosis. hope this helps. greg ---- Original Message ----- From: johnkupris@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint a dumb question, will coal tar harden in an airless sprayer? if left for 2 days before repaint? Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1747|104|2003-06-04 02:38:23|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|ps: be sure to re-mix the paint after waiting 30 minutes, g ----- Original Message ----- From: johnkupris@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint a dumb question, will coal tar harden in an airless sprayer? if left for 2 days before repaint? Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1748|104|2003-06-04 03:00:51|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Paint|-----Original Message----- From: johnkupris@... [mailto:johnkupris@...] Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2003 13:16 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint John, it all depends on the word 'epoxy' and if you are talking coal-tar epoxy the answer is yes and it's goodbye to the pressure line+filters+pump seals, and maybe some other parts in the gun. Coal Tar exists in a non epoxy form as well. I have used J87 Aluminium (epoxy) in a hot climate and that is a sobering experience. A great coating system, but if the temp. is up, one needs to put on the skates, because after being stationary for something like 10 minutes in 30+ deg., it will start to cure in the line first (6mm ID), then everywhere else, and then it's out with the wallet. I lose about 0.8litres after the supply pot is empty under the Graco. Some of this you can recover to use in air-atomised (thinned) or by brush. Terry a dumb question, will coal tar harden in an airless sprayer? if left for 2 days before repaint? Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/| 1749|104|2003-06-04 03:20:16|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Paint|John, one thing I forgot when declaring disaster on the coal tar epoxy --- if you live in a very cool place and the equipment is likewise very cool --- below 10 deg. C --- then the stuff will not cure at all. Some high-builds will cure in a few days at these low temps. , but the Tar Epoxies I have used (and still use) will hold in the freezer without drama for one or two days. That's what comes of me living in God's own country where it rarely gets below 13 deg. C anytime. Terry -----Original Message----- From: johnkupris@... [mailto:johnkupris@...] Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2003 13:16 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint a dumb question, will coal tar harden in an airless sprayer? if left for 2 days before repaint? Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/| 1750|104|2003-06-04 04:27:20|Edward Stone|Re: Paint|Greg, Terry and all, I have been offered some old 2 part epoxy paint which according to the data sheet has a 1 year shelf life. I phoned the manufacturers (Sigma) for advice and they said that if I got the batch number then they could tell me the date of manufacture. What I am wondering is; how does old age affect the unmixed paint? Obviously there is not a sudden cut off point but what can one expect the paint to do and what is the downside risk of buying old paint. Regards, Ted| 1751|104|2003-06-04 12:26:16|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Hi Ted We were getting US Navy "surplus" epoxy for $1/gal instead of (then) $35/gal. After the paint went over date, the Navy didn't use it. The only obvious problem was that the paint needed to be left mixed in the pot longer before use. Otherwise it never hardened up, which can be an expensive disaster. Many other people were using the same paint with reasonable results, so I was not worried. There are many different types of epoxies with different characteristics. I have found the "failed to kick" problem common in other epoxies as they age, but I would not feel confident enough to say it is true for all epoxies. Maybe the shelf life isn't critical for the paint, or maybe it is. Maybe it simply makes the paint hard to mix. Or maybe it makes the paint weak or prone to failure. The total age is probably not as important as the multiplier. How many times older than the shelf life is the paint? 10% is probably no big deal if the paint was kept cool. If the paint was not kept cool, or is 2-3 times older than the shelf life you might have a challenge. Trying a sample might be instructive. Even then there is no guarantee. Maybe your results will be "good enough", just not a good as the manufacturer intended. I would worry less about a paint used for overcoating and above the waterline. For freshly blasted steel, especially below the waterline, I would recommend going with a reputable manufacturer and a known system, unless I had received good reports from others about the specific paint, and my other costs were in line with the paint costs. Lots of time we haven't had a blast available. In those cases a cheap paint lasts just as long, and sometimes longer, than an expensive paint. I have found that inside the hull a 1 part bitumastic is every bit as good as a 2 part high tech epoxy, at a fraction of the cost. In some ways the bitumastics are better, because they don't require the same care and preparation, and they have a bit of "give". One of the problems with epoxies is that they can "shrink" over time - over years, and pull away from the job, especially inside tight corners. While probably not universally true, the faster the epoxy sets, the harder the paint, the more it seems likely to shrink. The bitumastics stay a bit soft, so they are not suitable for high wear areas. I've also had better success for repairs below the waterline with the bitumastic than with vinyl tar. These paints appear very similar, and I had assumed they were, however the bitumastic seems to stick better underwater. Maybe it is just a difference between manufacturers. Vinyl tar is usually easier to get. I know in Fiji, where there was no blasting available, the freighters were using bitumastic below the waterline, then antifouling. There is something to be said for some of the older 1 part paint systems when traveling in out of the way areas. Some of the newer 2 part systems last a lot longer when properly applied, but require a level of preparation that cannot be achieved anywhere outside of a well supplied shipyard. If a 1 part is cheaper, easier to apply, and requires less prep to get a good result, I find the maintenance gets done on a more regular basis. That may just be me, however. greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Edward Stone To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 1:28 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Paint Greg, Terry and all, I have been offered some old 2 part epoxy paint which according to the data sheet has a 1 year shelf life. I phoned the manufacturers (Sigma) for advice and they said that if I got the batch number then they could tell me the date of manufacture. What I am wondering is; how does old age affect the unmixed paint? Obviously there is not a sudden cut off point but what can one expect the paint to do and what is the downside risk of buying old paint. Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1752|104|2003-06-04 13:40:27|sae140|Paint|I've been unravelling some of the voodoo (nice term, Greg) surrounding paint, and the picture that is emerging is that steel can be protected by paint in 2 distinctly different ways. The most common mode is by providing a physical barrier: to deny moisture and oxygen from gaining access to the steel's surface. The physical properties of the paint are determined by whatever vehicle is used, and whatever ingredients are added to that vehicle. As no single layer of paint is considered 100% impervious to water, many layers of paint are therefore recommended. The other mode is one of electro-chemical protection, such as the zinc-rich primer system which Ted mentioned recently: http://www.zingacanada.com Zinc-rich (and aluminium-rich) primers protect steel in a totally different way from other paints. They are not 'just' metallic primers, but a paint-on galvanising system, which works by setting up a galvanic cell whenever the steel surface becomes exposed. As with hot-dip galavanising, some of the zinc then migrates to cover and protect the exposed steel. One problem reported with an overcoated zinc-rich primer system is that the zinc migrates from underneath the over-coating leaving a void, and the protective zinc deposits generated by galvanic action are in the form of crystals, *not* metallic zinc. These crystals, together with the void which surrounds them, combine to form the blisters which Greg mentioned in a recent post. It is for this reason that although zinc-rich primers are considered as life-time primers above the water-line, many experts recommend that they are not used for bottom paint. (If they are, then I'd recommend periodic inspection and touching-up). Now to expose some of the voodoo. http://www.zrcworldwide.com/whatszrc.htm confirms what I'd suspected: that zinc and aluminium-rich primers create conductive paint layers (they have to - for that's how they work). No conduction = no electro-chemical protection. And that requires a suitable vehicle to be used. Commonly-used volatile thinners, drying oils, epoxy etc., will leave micron-thick layers of insulation between metallic particles, and metallic primers so formulated can only ever provide physical protection. (This may also be the case with the numerous epoxy-based zinc salts (oxides, phosphates, silicates etc) on the market, where apparent choice *may* be bogus - but more research is needed here, for there's clearly a lot more to paint chemistry than meets the eye ...) I've already tested some 'standard zinc' and aluminum-primed paint surfaces, and found them to be non-conducting - so they can only be providing physical protection, and I might equally well have applied non-metallic paint instead. I'm thinking that some of the confusion lies in the term 'zinc-rich primer' - for this paint is far more than that. "Cold-galvanising" is a much better description, imho. Apologises for boring those who already knew this stuff.. Colin| 1753|104|2003-06-04 14:52:59|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Hi Colin, Underwater, steel corrodes very slowly as long as the zincs are kept up, even in the tropics. The Bones it doesn't rust underwater. We have 70 lbs of zinc, which normally lasts about 5 years. The barnacles grow just fine, and are almost impossible to remove. Underneath the steel is clean and bright. Cut off flush just above the steel they make a pretty good barrier coat on which to apply bottom paint!! If anyone could make a paint that sticks to steel anything like a barnacle, they would corner the market. I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your anodes are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend the time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the electrical system in your boat. The only problem we have ever seen is a bit of electrolysis right at the waterline, small black circles with a bit of carbon in the center. We have only had a few of these, always after staying in a "hot" harbor. I recall reading an engineering review in Australia. They were having a problem with iron bridges corroding very quickly, after they had been in place without drama for nearly 100 years. The problem was traced to power lines buried in the ground, up to 1/2 mile away, dissolving the iron. Our previous boat was FG. I plugged into shore power, and a month later went over the side to clean the bum. Our shaft zinc (new) was black and almost gone, because "for safety" reasons the boat was grounded to shore power. We were "protecting" someone with 120 volts leaking into the harbor next to us. Pago Pago is notorious for this problem. One FG boat had its bronze thru hull fall off after 6 months, and another steel boat we sailed with (factory built) had all its zincs eaten in the same period, and the hit pitted thru. One of our friends borrowed the Bones for a year, and ended up buying an older steel boat (Cajun) in Malaysia. Unfortunately the hull had developed electrolysis, and ultimately the rudder failed and they lost the boat. I recall them telling me about the difference between the Bones and Cajun. On one with the grinder, you grind and grind, and after awhile you can see a mark in the steel. In the other the grinder cut thru the steel like butter. One of the simplest tests for a steel boat is to measure the voltage between your hull and a piece of mild steel in the water beside the boat. Something like a 1/2 volt negative (on the boat) and you are fine. The following is my opinion only. The reader should do their own research. One of the biggest problems I know of for Alloy and Steel boats is negative grounds to the hull, usually via the engine. Isolate your electrical system from the hull. (just look at the negative terminal on your car battery for an idea why you want to do this.) It can be hard. Our master switch on the engine disconnects the negative side of the battery from the engine, rather than the positive as in most FG boats. I have a theory that the reason lightning strikes are so damaging is that many boats have no way to disconnect the negative side of their electrical system from their grounding system. When lightning strikes, even when everything is turned off and all the breakers open, the negative is still connected. The lightning travels up this path, from your grounding system, to the battery, and then to all your electronics, blowing diodes and transistors which are particularly prone to failure from reverse emf. We have been in hundreds of electrical storms over the years. We have had many "near misses" over the years, with boats less than 100 feet from us hit and their electrical systems destroyed. We have even had people come over to the boat, asking if we are damaged, because they are convinced they saw the lightning hit us. I firmly believe that this is one of the major advantages of a metal hull and a properly isolated electrical system when cruising in the tropics. A good percentage of boats have their cruising plans destroyed by lightning strikes. We have spent many a time hiding inside our "Faraday Cage" while the storm raged outside. If you have never been in electrical storm in the tropics they can be a real eye opener. The lighting at the center of a large thunderstorm can be unbelievable. Sort of looks like a medieval picture, like a fantastically huge finger of god reaching down from the sky to snuff you out of existence, drilling the surface of the ocean immediately under the center of the storm, every few seconds as the storm moves along. Touch wood we have never had any damage from electrical storms. One of the funniest (not really) devices is the "lightning protector". Looks like a fuller brush. More commonly called the "lightning attractor". Ok, I'm off topic. Just throwing out some ideas. greg ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 10:39 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Paint I've been unravelling some of the voodoo (nice term, Greg) surrounding paint, and the picture that is emerging is that steel can be protected by paint in 2 distinctly different ways. The most common mode is by providing a physical barrier: to deny moisture and oxygen from gaining access to the steel's surface. The physical properties of the paint are determined by whatever vehicle is used, and whatever ingredients are added to that vehicle. As no single layer of paint is considered 100% impervious to water, many layers of paint are therefore recommended. The other mode is one of electro-chemical protection, such as the zinc-rich primer system which Ted mentioned recently: http://www.zingacanada.com Zinc-rich (and aluminium-rich) primers protect steel in a totally different way from other paints. They are not 'just' metallic primers, but a paint-on galvanising system, which works by setting up a galvanic cell whenever the steel surface becomes exposed. As with hot-dip galavanising, some of the zinc then migrates to cover and protect the exposed steel. One problem reported with an overcoated zinc-rich primer system is that the zinc migrates from underneath the over-coating leaving a void, and the protective zinc deposits generated by galvanic action are in the form of crystals, *not* metallic zinc. These crystals, together with the void which surrounds them, combine to form the blisters which Greg mentioned in a recent post. It is for this reason that although zinc-rich primers are considered as life-time primers above the water-line, many experts recommend that they are not used for bottom paint. (If they are, then I'd recommend periodic inspection and touching-up). Now to expose some of the voodoo. http://www.zrcworldwide.com/whatszrc.htm confirms what I'd suspected: that zinc and aluminium-rich primers create conductive paint layers (they have to - for that's how they work). No conduction = no electro-chemical protection. And that requires a suitable vehicle to be used. Commonly-used volatile thinners, drying oils, epoxy etc., will leave micron-thick layers of insulation between metallic particles, and metallic primers so formulated can only ever provide physical protection. (This may also be the case with the numerous epoxy-based zinc salts (oxides, phosphates, silicates etc) on the market, where apparent choice *may* be bogus - but more research is needed here, for there's clearly a lot more to paint chemistry than meets the eye ...) I've already tested some 'standard zinc' and aluminum-primed paint surfaces, and found them to be non-conducting - so they can only be providing physical protection, and I might equally well have applied non-metallic paint instead. I'm thinking that some of the confusion lies in the term 'zinc-rich primer' - for this paint is far more than that. "Cold-galvanising" is a much better description, imho. Apologises for boring those who already knew this stuff.. Colin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1754|104|2003-06-04 18:11:30|Richard Till|Re: Paint|Ted, Brent put me on to a military surplus place in Washinton State where I picked up 20 gallons of Mare Island Epoxy. I was originally looking for an ICI product but it was all gone when I went to pick it up in the US. Not wanting to come home empty handed I took a gamble with the Mare Island product -- it has proven to be a good product so far. It was 3 years passed the expiry date when I applied it and is working very well. This is a 1:1 mix and the trick is to thoroughly pre-mix each componet before mixing the 2 components together. Keep it warm before you start mixing so that it can link. This is the toughest paint I have ever come accross (used on warships I believe). Richard Till (36' steel, floating and fitting-out, Sechelt, British Columbia). Have fun . . . rt >From: "Edward Stone" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Paint >Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:28:00 +0100 > >Greg, Terry and all, > >I have been offered some old 2 part epoxy paint which according to the data >sheet has a 1 year shelf life. I phoned the manufacturers (Sigma) for >advice and they said that if I got the batch number then they could tell me >the date of manufacture. What I am wondering is; how does old age affect >the unmixed paint? Obviously there is not a sudden cut off point but what >can one expect the paint to do and what is the downside risk of buying old >paint. > >Regards, > >Ted > > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1755|1755|2003-06-04 21:22:23|Graeme Mitchell|Suggestion for anti-virus software|Hi all I am member of some other groups ,there has been a lot of viruses being sent out in these groups , so far origami boats has been free of them as there is no attachments sent with messages. But for any one without virus protection here is a site for a chance to stop this. As it would seem that there are some people without protection . By the calls for help after opening these attachments Graeme P.S Also I have a converter for imperial to metric and lots of other units of measure some of which I have never heard of ?? If any one wants it email me direct and I will send it to you. Paint discussion is GOOD value. It's a free program and they claim it will always remain free for private use. You can get it at http://freeav.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1756|104|2003-06-05 04:14:53|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Paint|Ted, Greg., and all, A lot of shelf life notation in paint is about product having been opened and exposed to any amount of unknown contamination, as well as protecting the vendor and manufacturer against consequential damage claims --- the world was once a lot more simple! My experience with old epoxies in paint bases has been generally as per the feedback so far re your query. If epoxy components are not in the paint form, they appear to have extremely long shelf lives, provided that the containers are neutral in their purpose. I have resins --- laminating weights, potting types, and also adhesive weights --- and their respective hardeners which are 15 years old, and these still function very much as they did when freshly marketed --- these samples are in glass containers. I also have the same resins (same age) held in tin-plated steel cans which are now unusable, and me not being a chemist, I just know that the tins did it! In every case I relate, I am talking about containers properly sealed and stored in a temperature range of 10 to 40 deg. C --- not for all of their life though, having moved the whole project some 1600 km North about 10 years ago to a place where it seems to be 22 to 32 much of the time. When epoxies are mixed with other things to produce paint products, the life picture seems to change according to the mixture. I have Tarcol (a coloured tar epoxy ) which is 15 years old and it appears to work and perform as well as ever. Tarcol was a "Pioneer" product --- now Sigma has the formula and the sales. Now with Jotun products, I found that 5 year old J87 heavily invested with aluminium flakes (remember this word flakes), would not mix or look or spray the same as new product and in fact I have put 10litres of this stuff to one side as it was for critical areas of the hull and the risk was too great. That 10l may well go on the roof of our house!!!!! So it is perhaps not an easy query to reply to with confidence --- however, if tar epoxy is the subject, I'd say that in days gone by, there never was a use-by date, and the material properly mixed, will probably perform to spec.. In fact, there is no expiry date on the containers of any of the paints I use for marine application --- just the batch number to meet ISO9000 series requirements on traceability. There is, of course, a reference to the MSDS and application data sheet, and these usually have the protective clause or wording. One thing seems to be common with the mixing processes of the tar epoxies. It is the time cycle between the initial mix of the A&B (after thorough power mixing of the base+pigments+X ---- the hardener is usually a single component), and the mandatory re-mix of the combination prior to use --- my stuff specified 10 to 15 minutes of resting before re-mix. On the matter of cold galvanising, I originally thought that the aluminium component of the J87 was involved in this way --- not so --- according to the agents. They tell me that the aluminium flakes cause a major lengthening of the moisture permeation path and that is all they do. In other words, the flakes overlap each other in the epoxy matrix and make the 200 micron coat behave like a 500 micron coat, it is that simple. One other point emerged in discussions with some commercial operators --- if the hull is zinc primed, it is no bad thing to let it weather somewhat before water blasting and overcoating. Apparently this stems from the leaching away of zinc salts on the surface of the hull --- I have also been told that if the blast grade was good enough, there can be microscopic rust points on the profile of the zinc primer which are welcome in the surface-tolerant epoxy overcoating system. That seems to line-up well with Gilbert Klingel's story about the need to use the right blast abrasive and pressure/velocity, the job is about an anchoring profile, not about a nice clean surface. J87 is available with or without aluminium loading, but for a hull, the aluminium is always specified to go on to the priming coat with which it is compatible. For shipping, that is Barrier - a Jotun organic zinc which is the only organic or in-organic zinc coat (very thin coat <50 microns), which is specified for underwater use in the Jotun system. In my case, time will tell about the underwater zinc holding primer on the blasted surface. -----Original Message----- From: Edward Stone [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2003 17:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Paint Greg, Terry and all, I have been offered some old 2 part epoxy paint which according to the data sheet has a 1 year shelf life. I phoned the manufacturers (Sigma) for advice and they said that if I got the batch number then they could tell me the date of manufacture. What I am wondering is; how does old age affect the unmixed paint? Obviously there is not a sudden cut off point but what can one expect the paint to do and what is the downside risk of buying old paint. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/| 1757|1755|2003-06-05 08:09:50|ironfire1776|Re: Suggestion for anti-virus software|Hi All, I have been "lurking" here for some time, have read everything. Up till now haven't had anything to add to the truly significant knowlege here. ('Will explain my interest in steel boats sometime later.) But just typed this up for a horse rescue group (who's technical knowege is on a somewhat lower level than this group's so please forgive it sounds a little simplistic). Chris As promised- Especially if you are on cable, which is really a network, you should be behind a firewall. If you do not already have one I recommend Zone Alarm- www.zonelabs.com Zone Alarm can prevent most of the major hacker type problems. It makes your computer "invisible" to other computers looking for weak spot. Also it prevents any program from communicating on the internet without your permission. Zone Alarm creates a list of programs as they ask for permission to access the internet, each time a new program tries to access the internet you will get a little window with the choice of "yes", or "no" with the option of Zone Alarm remembering your choice (most of the time you will want it to remember). Some programs will also ask for "server rights", or "do you want suchandsuch.exe to act as a server". Other than SMTP email programs (outlook) most of us need no server programs. If a program is a server, it will do what it is asked to do by other computers on the net (like upload information if it can). If you don't know the program that is asking to access the internet or act as a server, there is a real good chance that you don't need it- deny access (without checking the remember box) and see what if anything doesn't work. (Note: Very few if any of your programs (except outlook express) need "server rights", in the programs list block all programs from acting as a server- and then only allow if you cannot get them to work otherwise. Even Zone Alarm itself asks for server rights, but works just fine without.) There is much info available on their web site. ZoneAlarm will send you a warning flag every time another computer tries to get into yours and Zone blocks it- this happens so often you will quickly check the box "don't show this again". Of course you need some kind of Anti-virus, I use Norton, and know little about the others. An antivirus program is only able to deal with viruses that it has info on, frequent updates of the "virus definitions" (7 to 15 days recommended) are a must. Now there is "Spyware", Spyware are programs that send info to another computer (web sight) about all sorts of things, most generally your web surfing habits, but they can send much more than that. Some spyware can report every keystroke you make (like your passwords, credit card numbers, etc.). Usually you acquire spyware by trickery- you download a free program, click on a banner on a web page, or something similar. Spyware is well handled by "Spybot-Search and Destroy"- http://security.kolla.de/ Like anti virus, "Spybot-Search and Destroy", should be updated regularly. Spybot provides a great deal of info on web hazards (a whole lot more that I will). Both the basic zone alarm and Spybot are free (and very good). But by it's nature, this is not real simple software, so I recommend that you read directions, etc. carefully. Another very useful (and free) program is "Eraser" http://www.tolvanen.com/eraser/ With eraser, you can create a list of cache folders, files, whatever, and every time you run eraser those files will be erased beyond recovery (some care is a good idea- it will gladly erase you system files too if that's what you ask it to do). For those who just can't handle the complexity of the antivirus / anti spyware programs, there are a couple of things you can do simply that vastly increase your security. (But I still consider ZoneAlarm almost a "must".) The vast majority of hacker utilized "holes" and viruses, etc. are designed for the worlds most popular software -Microsoft. Unless you have some compelling reason to do so, don't use Internet Explorer or Outlook Express. (yes, I know EVERYBODY uses IE and Outlook- well almost). BUT there are other internet browsers, and some of us think they are better than IE. There is Mozilla (free) which is an "open source" (meaning that anyone who wants to can help refine/design it) closely related to Netscape. Yes, there is still a Netscape (free also). These can be downloaded and installed or installed directly from the web. Both are "full service" browsers (and pretty big) and arguably as good as IE (seems they do load a little slower on starting). There are many more, but beyond my experience. I use Firebird (formally Phoenix) which is a stripped down Mozilla, very small and fast, which gives you the option to "build your own browser" by adding just those features you want. Just about everything is modifiable. I am thrilled with Firebird, but it's probably best left for those who consider themselves advanced computer users. For the timid, Netscape is the sensible choice. http://www.mozilla.org/ http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=djudowone http://www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix For most, there is no good reason to use any POP/SMTP email (snet, earthlink, aol ["AO Hell" in tech-speak: Don't get me wrong, us pro computer repair types LOVE aol and lighting storms.] First, your email address is bound to your internet provider, if you want to change providers, your address changes too. But the real danger is that you download your mail before you read it.And if a virus does slip in, it will send itself to all your friends listed in your address book (with your name on it-well they used to be friends). I'm sure there are advantages to that (POP) for businesses and the like that I don't know about, but for the average email artist I can see no use. Get (and most of you already have) a web-based email box (Yahoo, Hotmail, Lycos, etc.) and use it. Most of these give you the ability to scan attachments before you download them, and can open many kinds of attachments right on the web. You only download what you want to save, and after it has been scanned for diseases. AND you can easily access your mail from anybody's computer, anywhere. (If you used my computer's Outlook to get your mail, I would be able to retrieve your logon/password even if you deleted the account afterwards.) Free tip- Old computer? short on disk space? send your extra stuff to your yahoo mailbox- Yahoo lets you save 4MB, not enough? open another Yahoo ID and mailbox- (wicked but legal). Lastly- don't use the "Remember your Logon/Password on This Computer" feature- probably no real great danger here, but why make invasion any easier? Peace and ponies, Chris --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme Mitchell" wrote: > Hi all I am member of some other groups ,there has been a lot of viruses > being sent out in these groups , so far origami boats has been free of them > as there is no attachments sent with messages. > > But for any one without virus protection here is a site for a chance to stop > this. As it would seem that there are some people without protection . By > the calls for help after opening these attachments > > Graeme > > P.S > > Also I have a converter for imperial to metric and lots of other units of > measure some of which I have never heard of ?? If any one wants it email me > direct and I will send it to you. > > Paint discussion is GOOD value. > > > It's a free program and > they claim it will always remain free for private use. You can get it > at http://freeav.com/ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1758|1758|2003-06-05 10:38:35|Aaron Edelman|Paint/Expansion of steel|Hi, Just a question. How much does a (say) 40' steel boat expand (in length) due to increase in temperature, when it travels from Alaska (in the winter), to the tropics. If one looks at the expansion slots on both ends of steel bridges, which might be somewhere of 6" - 12" wide on each end of an average length bridge, it would appear that a 40' vessel might increase in length 1/4" -1/2". How does this (if so) affect the various paints and antifouling? How does the expansion affect a teak deck over steel, since wood definitely does not have the same expansion rate as steel? Thank you for your input. Ron _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1759|1759|2003-06-05 12:03:54|Glen|40 Foot plans for sale|Good day to all. I have for sale the plans to the 40 foot version. I still believe in the oragami construction and will build by boat with this style we have decided that we are going to build something a little bigger as we will be having two-in-law-crew-members joining us for our trek around the world! The plans are complete and have not been used. I did change some of the layout in regards to where I wanted things below deck but this does not change any of the lines and they are just my ideas. I still plan on being part of the group and will put in my two or three cents worth !! If anyone is interested please e-mail me, I am asking $ 400.00 for them which is a savings of $ 100.00 !!!! Glen| 1760|1758|2003-06-05 13:02:45|nelstomlinson|Re: Paint/Expansion of steel|A quick google search turned up the number 12(10^-6)/degree C (the units would be meters/(meter degree C)), for mild steel. It was on this page, which looks interesting: http://www.ass da.asn.au/austenit.html So, as a first approximation, a 40 footer would lengthen (40)12(10^-6) feet for each degree Celsius increase in temperature. It would expand (in all dimensions!) 12 parts in a million for each degree C increase. Going from a water temperature of 30C (someplace REALLY hot, I'd guess) to 0C (maybe the face of the Columbia Glacier) would shrink the boat by 360.0 parts in a million, or 0.0144 feet, or almost 3/16 of an inch. Going from a hull temperature of 90C (on the beach, in the sun, somewhere REALLY hot) to a hull temperature of -50C (on the banks of the Yukon River) would shrink the hull by 1680.0 parts in a million, or 0.0672 feet, or about 13/16 of an inch. I've seen paint flake off a car door in Fairbanks, at -70F (-57C). Then there was that fellow who took a steel boat through the NW passage. Didn't he leave his boat on the beach over the winter? I gather that he didn't lose any paint. It probably never got any colder than -40CF, there on the coast, but that's colder than most boaters want to tolerate. My guess would be that paint applied in the tropics won't flake off due to differing rates of thermal expansion in any weather you'll find along the Gulf coast of Alaska. I could be wrong: it can hit -20F (-29C) in Anchorage. Anyplace the ocean doesn't freeze over, and the boat is in the water, you probably won't have to worry. Hope this helps, Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Edelman" wrote: > Hi, > > Just a question. How much does a (say) 40' steel boat expand (in length) due > to increase in temperature, when it travels from Alaska (in the winter), to > the tropics. > > If one looks at the expansion slots on both ends of steel bridges, which > might be somewhere of 6" - 12" wide on each end of an average length bridge, > it would appear that a 40' vessel might increase in length 1/4" -1/2". > > How does this (if so) affect the various paints and antifouling? > > How does the expansion affect a teak deck over steel, since wood definitely > does not have the same expansion rate as steel? > > Thank you for your input. > > Ron > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail | 1761|1761|2003-06-05 13:49:16|sae140|Electrolysis|> I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your anodes are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend the time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the electrical system in your boat. Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the fruits of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while discussion !! Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint thing. I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the Acme paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make some sense of these claims. I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo that's applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can see that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and con's of using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of sharing information with others who may be similarly plagued with a constant need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- intentioned recommendations. Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to use just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you take a calculated risk. Ok - electrolysis. 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? In contrast: Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the water for over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any anodes attached. His construction employs similar metals below the waterline (mild steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of rudder pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once (built up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think that's much less maintenance than one would expect with a more conventional installation. Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not been fitting anodes for over 30 years ! He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of the electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting the propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar metals. My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin with, just to see if they're needed). I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' insurance, but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source doesn't fit well with me. However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the zinc galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view of the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. Creating such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble than it's worth. Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... Regards Colin BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode-out right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper pipe !!| 1762|1761|2003-06-05 19:28:03|put_to_sea|Re: Electrolysis|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the zinc > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles > and prop shaft Do you suppose it would be possible to use Ultra High Molecular Weight (UHMW) plastic on both parts of the pintles and on the propshaft to eliminate the exposed steel at those points? I have no idea how you might fasten the UHMW to the steel though. Best regards, Amos| 1763|1761|2003-06-05 20:01:17|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Electrolysis|Hi Colin, I'd be cautious about adopting any "no anode" approach. No matter how careful you are, if you are in a "hot" harbor your boat is at risk. What is true for metal bridges is true for metal boats. The error doesn't have to be you. I put the anchor over the side in one place and had it come up in a week later, black, with the galv. gone. A zinc bolted to the anchor stock helps. I recall hearing that the original iron sailing hulls would last a long almost forever when they were first introduced. When boats and harbors were electrified, they started to fail very quickly. Anodes were the solution. This might just be a story, maybe not. The problem with electrolysis is that it is mostly invisible. The metal demineralizes and weakens without showing much evidence, and then fails. Blades fall off propellers, rudder shafts snap. I am pretty sure that electrolysis can kill metal boats much faster than rust. I'm not talking about surface damage, but damage to the internal structure of the metal. Think of rust as damage from the surface inwards, and electrolysis as damage from the inside outwards. You may go years with electrolysis and never know it. You might have a 4 times safely factor in a conservative design, meaning that the boat can lose 75% of its strength before it will fail under maximum loads. Then one day in storm conditions, at sea far away from help you have a catastrophic failure because electrolysis has weakened the boat by 75%, and it cannot cope with the storm forces. Or just something simple like a blade falling off the propeller on your way up the Red Sea, but potentially just as serious. There is a popular book on marine electrical systems, and unfortunately the name escapes me at the moment. It is head and shoulders better than any other I have read, so if anyone else out there can provide a name please sing out. The book explains very clearly the challenges involved in protecting a boat, tables for calculating the correct size of anodes, how and why to insulate your electrical system, shorepower, etc, etc. There is even a section on electrocution of swimmers in the water. There are "purists" in the boating industry. Controversy generates publicity, which generates sales. I recall some famous sailors/authors that advocated no engines in the boat. I have also heard from others that it is not uncommon to hear these same sailors/authors on the radio asking for a tow into harbor when the wind dies. There is a cost to being a purist. If you are building a boat without any dissimilar metals you will likely increase costs and/or decrease reliability. I would put in the best materials for the price, with an eye to avoiding/isolating dissimilar metals, not eliminating them. I've never replaced/repaired a shaft or rudder pintles. The shaft is monel, the rudder pins monel, and the prop bronze. The are no marks on the shaft, no marks on the rudder pins and the prop shows no pink, and no sharp edges. 70 lbs of zinc lasts about 5 years. Then you have about 50% left and it is time for replacement. I think I pay about $2/lb for the big anodes, the ones they weld on fishboats, so maybe $30/year. Cheap insurance. In any case, I would install anodes. Even if every piece of the boat is mild steel, you still have electricity on board and the possibility of other boats around you. If the anodes are never used, great. If they are, great. If you don't have them and some beaten up tuna boat anchors alongside leaking power into the water, not great. The strategy I adopted for anodes is this: Our original anodes were welded on. However, replacing welded anodes requires a welder, and damages the paint. We ended up welding 3/4" SS bolts to the hull to attach the anodes. No everyone likes this solution, because you need to make sure the bolts are tight or you risk losing the electrical connection. No connection, false sense of security. Bolt onto a hole in the steel strap on the zinc, not onto the zinc itself. I put a big wrench on the nuts and tighten them until they cut deeply into the metal strap. When leaving a metal boat for an expended period more than a few boats hang zincs over the size on a heavy wire, clamped to the stanchions or a reliable point on the hull. One of the boats beside me in Malaysia was painted under the waterline with Zinca after a blast. Lots of $$, and the owner didn't bother to coat over the Zinca. They had been told no paint was required, the zinca was just as good as bottom paint. Saw the same boat two years later, and the owner was planning to reblast and repaint. They were not happy. I guess what I am trying to say is that there is no "magic bullet". Preparation is the key to success, and then most paint systems will give a good result. Any paint system that is significantly different than conventional systems should be approached with caution and researched carefully. The "best" paint is usually the paint that is best know in the local area, that the most people have had the most success with, for the best price We often use Jotun because it is 1/2 the price of International in Malaysia/Thailand. International might be slightly better, but not 2 times better, so most people use Jotun in that area. Hope this isn't too confusing. greg ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 10:49 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Electrolysis > I wouldn't spend to much time on zinc paint underwater. Your anodes are a lot easier and cheaper to replace than paint. I would spend the time to research electrolysis, especially as it relates to the electrical system in your boat. Thought I'd make this one a new thread, 'cause protecting the fruits of your labours from the elements must be a worth-while discussion !! Greg - just to clarify my spending time researching the paint thing. I was faced with a barrage of "use XYZ - it's the best" or "the Acme paint system protects longer" type of stuff, and needed to make some sense of these claims. I'm new to steel, and until now I've viewed paint as being goo that's applied to wooden window-frames and doors to pretty 'em up - protection was very much a secondary issue. With steel, I can see that these priorities are reversed, and now I've some basic understanding of how paints systems work, and the pro's and con's of using (for example) zinc-rich paint underwater. Personally, I wouldn't - but now I know 'why' it's considered ill-advised. My post was simply to pass this info on, in the spirit of sharing information with others who may be similarly plagued with a constant need to understand 'how things work', rather than rely on well- intentioned recommendations. Zinga (and equivalents) sound to me like brilliant products to use just about everywhere *except underwater*, where it seems you take a calculated risk. Ok - electrolysis. 70lbs of zinc in 5 years seems an awful lot .... ? In contrast: Nick Skeates (Wylo II) has had his boat continuously in the water for over 20 years (much of this time in the tropics), without any anodes attached. His construction employs similar metals below the waterline (mild steel shaft and prop etc.), and he reports only one set of rudder pintles replaced, and prop shaft corrosion repaired but once (built up with weld metal), during this time. All-in-all, I think that's much less maintenance than one would expect with a more conventional installation. Tom Colvin (based in Florida) stated back in 1996 that he's not been fitting anodes for over 30 years ! He achieves this by ensuring that the hull never forms part of the electrical system, by insulating the engine from the hull, by electrically insulating the shaft from the hull, by painting the propeller, and avoiding direct hull contact with dissimilar metals. My intention is to adopt Nick's 'no dissimilar metal' strategy together with Tom's insulation techniques, with a view to also dispensing with zincs (but nevertheless fit a couple to begin with, just to see if they're needed). I've no problem with attaching zincs for 'belt and braces' insurance, but as a 'fix' for a problem which could be avoided at source doesn't fit well with me. However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no anode fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the zinc galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder pintles and prop shaft (electrolysis might hopefully be minimal in view of the distance) - unless of course the bow roller, hawse pipe and anchor locker are electrically insulated from the hull. Creating such insulation isn't impossible, but might prove more trouble than it's worth. Of course this could be avoided by simply anchoring with string , which seems to be favoured on your side of the pond ... Regards Colin BTW - cement sticks to steel as good as any barnacle. BTW2 - I've just realised why my steel c.h. radiators corrode-out right next to their connection with brass fittings and copper pipe !! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1764|1759|2003-06-05 20:13:12|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: 40 Foot plans for sale|Hi Glen, If you have not selected a pattern, we can adapt just about any set of lines to an origami pattern. We 2 - 50 foot designs currently sailing, a 60 footer under construction, and a 55 footer under commission. You may find our triple dart patterns open up a number of shapes and designs not previously available. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55.htm thanks, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Glen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 9:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] 40 Foot plans for sale Good day to all. I have for sale the plans to the 40 foot version. I still believe in the oragami construction and will build by boat with this style we have decided that we are going to build something a little bigger as we will be having two-in-law-crew-members joining us for our trek around the world! The plans are complete and have not been used. I did change some of the layout in regards to where I wanted things below deck but this does not change any of the lines and they are just my ideas. I still plan on being part of the group and will put in my two or three cents worth !! If anyone is interested please e-mail me, I am asking $ 400.00 for them which is a savings of $ 100.00 !!!! Glen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1765|1765|2003-06-05 21:54:22|Luis Barros|C-Flex|What's the best material to build a boat, C-Flex or plywood-fiber/epoxy? Thank You Luis Barros NJ| 1766|1766|2003-06-05 21:54:22|Luis Barros|C-flex construction|I built a plywood boat before and now I'm thinking in building another one using c-flex, it's c-flex good material to build a boat? Its better the plywood/fiber-epoxy? Thank You Luis Barros Riverside New Jersey, USA http://www.spearfishing.net _____________________________________________________________ the BoatBuilding.Community http://boatbuilding.com/ the Internet boatbuilding, design and repair resource _____________________________________________________________ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get you@... w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag| 1767|1765|2003-06-05 21:54:23|Luis Barros|C-Flex|What's the best material to build a boat, C-Flex or plywood-fiber/epoxy? Thank You Luis Barros NJ| 1768|1768|2003-06-05 21:54:33|schwartzritter13|Flatbottom sailing skiff|I am a welder interested in building a flat-bottom sailing skiff of steel. I found plans for an aluminum working skiff in an old welding projects book. Can anyone offer me advice on how to use steel and rig for sail?| 1769|1765|2003-06-05 22:21:41|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: C-Flex|C-flex is a pretty dated material for building a oneoff. It produces an unneccessarily heavy hull (and weight in and of itself does nothing good for a sailboat) and does not produce as sturdy a hull some alternative methods. In recent Naval Academy test results, a high density foam cored vinylester resin/no mat fiberglass laminate was shown to have the highest puncture resistance per pound and by dollar. This could be further enhansed by adding Kevlar to the outer laminates at a higher cost. If properly constructed, fiberglass sheathed epoxy saturated cold molded plywood (which is not the same as sheet plywood) is thought to offer the longest durabilty and greatest stiffness per pound and dollar. Jeff| 1770|1761|2003-06-06 13:31:09|richytill|Re: Electrolysis|I bored out the UHMW bushings for the pintles and left the outer surface rough and hairy just as it came out of the hole saw. The rough surface allowed for bonding with Sikaflex (Belzona Rubber etc.) Seems like a good fit. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > > However, I've spotted one theoretical 'whoopsee' with the "no > anode > > fitted" approach: if you should anchor for extended periods (like > > months), then the anchor and it's chain will eventually lose the > zinc > > galvanising to the tiny area of exposed steel at the rudder > pintles > > and prop shaft > > Do you suppose it would be possible to use Ultra High Molecular > Weight (UHMW) plastic on both parts of the pintles and on the > propshaft to eliminate the exposed steel at those points? I have no > idea how you might fasten the UHMW to the steel though. > > Best regards, > Amos | 1771|1765|2003-06-06 14:11:27|nelstomlinson|Re: C-Flex|I'm sure that the Naval Academy did good science, but I'm not sure their results are very relevant to the backyard builder. Is the ``high density foam cored vinylester resin/no mat fiberglass laminate'' well suited to backyard conditions? C-flex is not terribly unsuited to that, and that's about the only good thing you can say about it. I helped build a c-flex hull around '79, in a boatbuilding class. The hull we built has been well maintained, and is still in the water and in use today. The nature of the material is such that you wind up with a very resin-rich laminate, and, as Mr. Halpern says, an unnecessarily heavy hull. On the other hand, the material is accessible to the amateur, and the work goes quickly, as fiberglass goes. You do pay a premium for the convenience, as I recall. The fancy, foam cored, high-technology approach too often requires the sort of equipment and quality control measures which are doable in a factory setting, and not really doable in your backyard. It's quite possible that the Naval Academy would have gotten very different results if they had had the midshipmen's mothers make up the test samples in their garages, in their spare time. I'm sure that steel would look very poorly on a strength-to-weight basis, compared to the Naval Academy's winner. On a strength-to-cost basis, if you add in the builder's equipment costs, steel might look a bit better. If you were comparing homebuilt samples of the materials, I think it's a safe bet that a dozen sheets of steel would give better consistency than a dozen sheets of home-assembled laminate. My point is that what's best for a factory which will amortize enormous equipment costs over hundreds or even thousands of hulls may not be at all good for an amateur who will build exactly one hull. Another question would be: ``After how many years will the material retain its integrity?''. Steel, IF protected from rust and electrolysis, will probably outlast me. We may not know all the problems which could attack the laminate, nor how to protect it from all of them. Furthermore, the plastics in the laminate may age even if protected. I think, if you had your heart set on NOT building a metal boat, that plywood covered with epoxy and glass might be a good alternative to metal for an amateur. The folks on the Badger owner builders group might be a better bunch than us to ask this question of. Mr. Barros, you will find them here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BadgerOwnerBuilders/ Hope this helps, Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "burr.halpern@a..." wrote: > C-flex is a pretty dated material for building a oneoff. It produces an > unneccessarily heavy hull (and weight in and of itself does nothing good for a > sailboat) and does not produce as sturdy a hull some alternative methods. In recent > Naval Academy test results, a high density foam cored vinylester resin/no mat > fiberglass laminate was shown to have the highest puncture resistance per pound and > by dollar. This could be further enhansed by adding Kevlar to the outer laminates at > a higher cost. If properly constructed, fiberglass sheathed epoxy saturated cold > molded plywood (which is not the same as sheet plywood) is thought to offer the > longest durabilty and greatest stiffness per pound and dollar. > > Jeff | 1772|1772|2003-06-06 14:16:46|Alex and Kim Christie|origami skiffs|Here is a fellow employing a kind of origami-style technique to build plywood skiffs. I believe Glen-L has an outboard skiff using this technique as well, yielding compound curves in the bow sections, and hard chine sections aft. http://www.liteboats.com/ Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1773|1765|2003-06-06 17:34:02|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: C-Flex|I think Nels has made some very good points. The origami technique is well suited to amateur construction because it can give perfectly acceptable results without the need for fabrication facilities and techniques not normally available to the amateur builder. If a composite structure yields the best strength to cost, should we not be seeing composite freighters, tankers, and aircraft carriers? If I was commissioning a ship and the yard said "we can do it stronger, lighter, and cheaper in composite", why would I go with steel? Commercial interests would go the cheaper route to yield increased profits. Warships would go with composites if only for the stealth value. Since they all seem to be built in steel, with alloy superstructures on performance warships, maybe there is something more to the story. Think of the dump trucks you see on the road. Locally they have all replaced the steel boxes with alloy boxes. This is to reduce weight, save on fuel and increase the effective load of the truck. The same thing can be done with boats, and left unpainted the life cycle costs of alloy are not significantly greater than steel. One of our 50 footers was actually build out of alloy dump truck beds. The owner was able to get an order of 3/8 dump truck beds, which he used to build the boat hull. Actually, it was a great choice because they use 5000 series marine alloys in the dump trucks. The Genoa 55 will use the same material. Think of that. A hull strong enough to be used in the bed of a dump truck. How many FG boats can make that claim? If you have ever watched a dump truck being loaded with boulders you know the beating the material takes. It isn't a whole lot different dropping tons of boulders inside a dump truck box than running your yacht up on the bricks. When we start seeing composite dump truck boxes I'll be more believing. The ability to take the ground and survive is critical in an offshore yacht. No matter how careful you are, eventually it happens. If you sail in coral, it happens a lot quicker and more often. If your boat cannot survive coral, it isn't a great cruising boat for the tropics. Rudders are like coral magnets. There is nothing quite like the sound of the rudder being pounded on a coral head at anchor to ruin your sleep. The force of a swell picking you up and dropping the rudder on a coral head is fantastic. Shakes the fillings out of your teeth. The Bones rings like a huge church bell with you inside. Bong, Bong, Bong. Design your rudder to take the full weight of the boat, because eventually it will have to. greg elliott yacht lazy bones ----- Original Message ----- From: nelstomlinson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 11:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: C-Flex I'm sure that the Naval Academy did good science, but I'm not sure their results are very relevant to the backyard builder. Is the ``high density foam cored vinylester resin/no mat fiberglass laminate'' well suited to backyard conditions? C-flex is not terribly unsuited to that, and that's about the only good thing you can say about it. I helped build a c-flex hull around '79, in a boatbuilding class. The hull we built has been well maintained, and is still in the water and in use today. The nature of the material is such that you wind up with a very resin-rich laminate, and, as Mr. Halpern says, an unnecessarily heavy hull. On the other hand, the material is accessible to the amateur, and the work goes quickly, as fiberglass goes. You do pay a premium for the convenience, as I recall. The fancy, foam cored, high-technology approach too often requires the sort of equipment and quality control measures which are doable in a factory setting, and not really doable in your backyard. It's quite possible that the Naval Academy would have gotten very different results if they had had the midshipmen's mothers make up the test samples in their garages, in their spare time. I'm sure that steel would look very poorly on a strength-to-weight basis, compared to the Naval Academy's winner. On a strength-to-cost basis, if you add in the builder's equipment costs, steel might look a bit better. If you were comparing homebuilt samples of the materials, I think it's a safe bet that a dozen sheets of steel would give better consistency than a dozen sheets of home-assembled laminate. My point is that what's best for a factory which will amortize enormous equipment costs over hundreds or even thousands of hulls may not be at all good for an amateur who will build exactly one hull. Another question would be: ``After how many years will the material retain its integrity?''. Steel, IF protected from rust and electrolysis, will probably outlast me. We may not know all the problems which could attack the laminate, nor how to protect it from all of them. Furthermore, the plastics in the laminate may age even if protected. I think, if you had your heart set on NOT building a metal boat, that plywood covered with epoxy and glass might be a good alternative to metal for an amateur. The folks on the Badger owner builders group might be a better bunch than us to ask this question of. Mr. Barros, you will find them here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BadgerOwnerBuilders/ Hope this helps, Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "burr.halpern@a..." wrote: > C-flex is a pretty dated material for building a oneoff. It produces an > unneccessarily heavy hull (and weight in and of itself does nothing good for a > sailboat) and does not produce as sturdy a hull some alternative methods. In recent > Naval Academy test results, a high density foam cored vinylester resin/no mat > fiberglass laminate was shown to have the highest puncture resistance per pound and > by dollar. This could be further enhansed by adding Kevlar to the outer laminates at > a higher cost. If properly constructed, fiberglass sheathed epoxy saturated cold > molded plywood (which is not the same as sheet plywood) is thought to offer the > longest durabilty and greatest stiffness per pound and dollar. > > Jeff Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1774|1765|2003-06-06 18:34:26|pvanderwaart|Re: C-Flex|I don't have any experience with C-flex, so I can't speak about that, but I do have experience with questions, and I do have opinions about them. Questions always arise in a context, and on a forum like this we often have to guess at the context of the question when we formulate an answer. In this case, we don't know anything about the asker's skills with different materials, or his comfort level with boats made of various materials, etc. So, "Is C-flex a good way to build a boat?" may be comparing C-Flex to all boat-building materials, or to all amateur boat-building methods, or it may be what seems to be the best fiberglass option. It is not easy for an amateur to build a round-bottom, fiberglass boat. C-flex is one way. Wood cores, e.g. stip planking, are another. (The question of what is a fiberglass-covered wood boat, and what is a wood-cored fiberglass boat can be left to another day.) Finally, as an aside, I would not that many designers would consider that steel construction leads to an unnecessarily heavy boat in the below 40' sizes. Making that complaint about C-flex on this forum seems to me a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black. Peter| 1775|1775|2003-06-06 21:39:31|info@easysoftwareinc.com|what is the right size of boat for me?|I hope the group will not mind if I put forward a few opinions. There are no wrong answers on this topic. My purpose is to help you get going and decide what size of boat to build. What is the right size of boat for me? An opinion for displacement monohulls only. Intended use - offshore cruising. Mixed male/female crew. There can be a wide variation in the amount of room available in any two different boats of the same length. I find that a better measurement when choosing a boat is displacement - which can be seen as the ability to carry weight (people, gear, food, water, fuel, spares, etc). Boats designed for the dock are typically short and beamy to minimize dock fees and maximize accommodations. Boats designed for offshore are typically long and narrow to maximize performance. It is not unusual to find a 40-45 foot dock boat with the same interior space as a 50 foot offshore boat. Boats with the same interior space will tend to have similar displacements, regardless of length (there are lots of exceptions). You will find that costs are often more closely related to displacement than length. There is obviously some increase in costs to build at 50 over 45 simply because the boat is longer. However, a 20 ton boat requires a certain strength of gear to match, regardless if the boat is 45 or 50 feet long. Also, there are design tricks to make boats longer to raise the selling price, without actually making the boat any bigger. For extended offshore cruising I recommend you choose a boat in the range of 4-8 tons of displacement per person. To me 2 tons per person is like driving a camper van. Easy to learn, and good for weekending and summer holidays. 4 tons per person is like living in an average sized motorhome/caravan. Easy to handle with practice, but a bit cramped after a 6 months. 8 tons per person is like driving the big stern pusher motorhomes - the full sized diesel bus conversions. Almost as comfortable as living in a house, but also requires more experience to handle. The choice of crew will affect these numbers. A hardened male crew can survive on a yacht that will result in instant divorce for a married couple. Also, over the years the size of boats out cruising has increased with the increased use of short handed gear such as roller furling. When we first started 39 feet was one of the biggest boats in the fleet - now we are one of the smallest. It could well be that over the next few years 8 tons per person will be considered small. greg elliott yacht lazy bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1776|1765|2003-06-06 23:16:23|Michael Casling|Re: C-Flex|Greg wrote: The origami technique is well suited to amateur construction because it can give perfectly acceptable results without the need for fabrication facilities and techniques not normally available to the amateur builder. When we start seeing composite dump truck boxes I'll be more believing. The ability to take the ground and survive is critical in an offshore yacht. No matter how careful you are, eventually it happens. If you sail in coral, it happens a lot quicker and more often. If your boat cannot survive coral, it isn't a great cruising boat for the tropics. Rudders are like coral magnets. There is nothing quite like the sound of the rudder being pounded on a coral head at anchor to ruin your sleep. The force of a swell picking you up and dropping the rudder on a coral head is fantastic. Shakes the fillings out of your teeth. The Bones rings like a huge church bell with you inside. Bong, Bong, Bong. Design your rudder to take the full weight of the boat, because eventually it will have to. So the dump truck boxes are built of alloy and the chassis is made of steel and a surboard is made of foam and plastic and a Formula 1 car is made of composites and the plane that flew around the world non stop is made of composites and our stock trailer is steel and my next boat will be alloy and the next one plywood and I already have an inflatable and a plastic boat. So what was your point? You design boats for alloy and steel? Your conclusion for a building material is based on what they make trucks out of? And your next post suggests a boat requiring 4 tons per person when an 8000 pound boat will easily carry two people anywhere they want to go. I guess the Hiscocks were not aware of that fact when they first went sailing. This being an Origami site with a lot of good discussion I really do not want to press the issue too much as alloy and steel seem to be the best suited for that approach. I will agree that the original question about C Flex was posted on the wrong board, just like the floatation discussion. If a power boat builder still held true to the heavier is better they would be out of business as Bayliner and others have proven them wrong wrong wrong. The same thing happened to the auto industry. Remember when tanks were the desired form of transportation. I can not agree that heavy is better, I will agree that the origami method has a lot of appeal and though it produces a heavier boat it is not excessive. You point about rudders is well taken but the aversion for thin water to test the strength may require more input. When I was about 16 I think I could be described as an amateur with respect to foam and plastic having never touched the stuff. Yet when my buddy and I decided to take up surfing we were able to shape a piece of foam and cover it with cloth and resin and glue a skeg on, and go surfing the following week. The boards lasted a long time. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1777|1765|2003-06-07 05:18:54|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: C-Flex|Hi Mike, Some people confuse weight with displacement. You will recall I wrote: >> I find that a better measurement when choosing a boat is displacement - which can be seen as the ability to carry weight (people, gear, food, water, fuel, spares, etc). << Weight in a ballasted yacht is never to be wished for, except as ballast. Heavier is definitely not better. The ability to take on weight in the form of fresh water, fuel, people, gear, stores and spares without compromising the handling and safety of the boat is what I am talking about. Many of the pioneers in modern offshore cruising were exceptional people. You will recall I wrote: >> When we first started 39 feet was one of the biggest boats in the fleet - now we are one of the smallest. It could well be that over the next few years 8 tons per person will be considered small. << People that live in houses take for granted many of the simple pleasures. The simple pleasures that disappear when you go cruising aboard a yacht. These are the big ones: 1. fresh water. 2. refrigeration/freezer. 3. electricity. Go to the tropics and tell your next ex-wife that for the next year the only shower she is going to get will be in salt water, or standing outside when it rains. No cold drinks, no ice, and no fans at night when it is hot and she can't sleep. No fresh food, no frozen food. Every meal out of a can unless you catch some fish and she doesn't get seasick from the smell. Now tell her that she can have the comforts of home because you have a boat that can carry the weight. Who is going to go cruising and who is going to stay home? You will recall I wrote: >> The choice of crew will affect these numbers. A hardened male crew can survive on a yacht that will result in instant divorce for a married couple. << There are people that can sail under conditions that will demoralize and break most of us over time. These people are exceptional and the Hiscocks are certainly among them. They are the people we read about because they are the exceptions. Stories about average people don't sell very well. As you recall I wrote: >> There are no wrong answers on this topic. << Please you not cut up my email and include it as part of your own. It is confusing and misleading the way your email is written. A reader could easily be misled to think I wrote statements that were in fact written by yourself. Why not write something that can stand on its own? Why piggy-back on my work? Tell us what you consider to be the correct size of yacht for yourself and why. Then, calculate the answer using the number of people, duration of trip, and the gear you want to take. Calculate the supplies and spare, and allow sufficient reserve. Then calculate the weight and come up with the minimum displacement of yacht likely to be able to carry this load safely. I think you will find the results an eye opener. I've done some of the work for you in the PS. If you get stuck I'm here to help out. regards greg ps: From the GVRD: The average person in the Greater Vancouver Regional District uses approximately 340 liters of water per day around the home." This would be 44,000 lbs of water for a couple on a trip from Vancouver to Hawaii, with very little reserve. You cannot fit 44,000 lbs of fresh water safely in the typical 8,000 lb yacht. Thus, you need to ration. Lubbers can find water rationing a BIG shock when they move aboard. The amount of water they use ashore compared to the amount available afloat. In the tropics the minimum requirement is 4 liters per person per day for drinking alone. Cooking and washing say another 4 liters per day per person. Most people will need practice to maintain these numbers if they use fresh water for anything other than drinking. A 1 month passage for 2 people, with 50% reserve is 1600 lbs of water. Adding 1600 lbs of water to an 8000 lb boat will be close to the limit for the boat, with no reserve capacity to carry people, gear, stores, or spares. So, we cannot allow bathing or washing in fresh. Use the juice from your canned food to do the cooking. Select the correct canned food to match any dry foods being eaten. To take that boat from Vancouver to Hawaii you cannot use fresh water except for drinking. Cut back to 800 lbs of water (80 gallons) which is probably close to the size of FW tanks anyway. Pray for rain and make sure you have a good rain catcher. The list goes on and on of things you would like to have, but can only have if your boat can carry the weight. Refrigerator, freezer, generator, tv, video player, tools, spares, more tools, more spares, paint, glue, clothing, medicine. Towels. You can never have too many towels aboard a boat. Food. radios, binoculars, GPS, charts, computer and electronic charts, knotlog, sounder, compass and spare. Spare GPS or sextant for those of us that learned to use one and still have the tables and almanac. Extra house battery. solar panels. fenders, lifejackets, flares, horn. Floodlight, ladder, pole. books, books, and more books. Rope, chain, anchors, line, sails, sails and more sails. Sewing machine. liferaft. more spares. How about a spare outboard engine and spare dinghy. You've just spent all this time getting out to the islands, and your dinghy is lost. How are you going to get to shore. Your dinghy engine quits and all you have is an inflatable. You can't row these against the wind or tide, what are you going to do? Go to the store? You can' t because the nearest store is 3 months round trip. Your trip to the South Pacific that you have spend planning all these years is ruined. How about a SCUBA compressor, tanks and other diving gear for 2 people. You came all this way out to the islands and want to go diving, but can't fill your tanks without a compressor. Your anchor fouls at 90 feet. How are you going to get it without SCUBA gear. Are you going to break off your $1000 anchor and chain and leave it behind? Do you have enough spares anchors to do this? I picked up a really nice 40 lb Bruce and 500 feet of 3/8 chain one night in the Great Barrier Reef. We were anchored for the night, a squall came in and popped our anchor. I had a heck of a time getting the anchor up as we drifted merrily through the coral in the pitch blackness. When it came aboard there was a complete anchor and chain wrapped around my anchor. It had fouled us when I set the anchor, as a result we broke free during the squall. Getting back to the anchorage in the dark, thru the coral is another story. One of my sailing buddies has a great story about spare anchors. He was on a Moorings Charter in the Caribbean, and every morning they call in on the radio to see if anyone needs anything. On the third morning one of the boats called in to say they needed some more of "those anchor things". They had been anchoring faithfully every night just like they were instructed, and in the morning letting go the bitter end and sailing away. When they got the instructions on how to anchor, no one told them to bring the anchor up afterwards. I am assured this is a true story. I just can't see how the anchor got from the Caribbean to Oz. A Cyclone is on the way. Do you have sufficient spare anchors, chain and warps to hold the boat, or will it be lost? Do you have sufficient fuel to motor 500-1000 miles? Fuel saved us from a cyclone that claimed 2 other yachts between New Caledonia and Australia. We were becalmed as the cyclone was forming up. There was no weather warning. We motored out from under it, just because the ocean didn't feel right to me. I can't describe it except to say that when I looked out on the ocean after the wind died the hair stood up on the back of my neck. I had a real strong feeling we were in deep KimChee. I didn't turn the engine off for 5 days, arriving with 5 liters of fuel to spare, shaken but not stirred. We were so lucky on that one. Only having 5 liters of fuel reserve served as a warning. While in Oz I added another 150 liters of fuel tanks and another 200 liters of water tanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: C-Flex Greg wrote: The origami technique is well suited to amateur construction because it can give perfectly acceptable results without the need for fabrication facilities and techniques not normally available to the amateur builder. When we start seeing composite dump truck boxes I'll be more believing. The ability to take the ground and survive is critical in an offshore yacht. No matter how careful you are, eventually it happens. If you sail in coral, it happens a lot quicker and more often. If your boat cannot survive coral, it isn't a great cruising boat for the tropics. Rudders are like coral magnets. There is nothing quite like the sound of the rudder being pounded on a coral head at anchor to ruin your sleep. The force of a swell picking you up and dropping the rudder on a coral head is fantastic. Shakes the fillings out of your teeth. The Bones rings like a huge church bell with you inside. Bong, Bong, Bong. Design your rudder to take the full weight of the boat, because eventually it will have to. So the dump truck boxes are built of alloy and the chassis is made of steel and a surboard is made of foam and plastic and a Formula 1 car is made of composites and the plane that flew around the world non stop is made of composites and our stock trailer is steel and my next boat will be alloy and the next one plywood and I already have an inflatable and a plastic boat. So what was your point? You design boats for alloy and steel? Your conclusion for a building material is based on what they make trucks out of? And your next post suggests a boat requiring 4 tons per person when an 8000 pound boat will easily carry two people anywhere they want to go. I guess the Hiscocks were not aware of that fact when they first went sailing. This being an Origami site with a lot of good discussion I really do not want to press the issue too much as alloy and steel seem to be the best suited for that approach. I will agree that the original question about C Flex was posted on the wrong board, just like the floatation discussion. If a power boat builder still held true to the heavier is better they would be out of business as Bayliner and others have proven them wrong wrong wrong. The same thing happened to the auto industry. Remember when tanks were the desired form of transportation. I can not agree that heavy is better, I will agree that the origami method has a lot of appeal and though it produces a heavier boat it is not excessive. You point about rudders is well taken but the aversion for thin water to test the strength may require more input. When I was about 16 I think I could be described as an amateur with respect to foam and plastic having never touched the stuff. Yet when my buddy and I decided to take up surfing we were able to shape a piece of foam and cover it with cloth and resin and glue a skeg on, and go surfing the following week. The boards lasted a long time. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1778|1778|2003-06-07 12:43:56|info@easysoftwareinc.com||Hi Alex, many thanks for the welcome and words of support. I am familiar with the Silva Bay school. After a series of co-incidences I ended up taking some letters of introduction for the school to Brunei, Island of Borneo. The school at the time was interested in teaching boat building in Brunei. I never heard back, but I attributed this to the fact that I was off on another adventure. We would be very happy to get together with you and review the designs and look at some of the boats. Jean Marc is always out sailing in his boat, and almost impossible to find. Harvey's boat is in the Comox area, and last year we sailed over to Lasquiti to see Carl's boat under construction. I think this would spark your interest if we could repeat it. I'm currently in N. Vancouver, but relocating to Lake Cowichan to begin construction of the Genoa 55. We are expanding to accommodate this rather massive boat and plan to have the plate in place mid July, all things going to plan. This is quite a project for us, and for the origami concept in general. Our triple dart designs - I've take to using the word dart in place of chine because I think it better describes the construction. The triple dart boats are designed somewhat differently than our previous boats. When we introduced the triple dart, we did away with the traditional 10 station method of boat design. Starting from the frames outward made no sense on these boats, so we stopped doing it. Instead, we start from the skin inward, laying out the hull the way we want it to appear. We image this in 3-D and rotate it looking for any "hidden surprises". Hard points, hollows, etc. If we find any, we adjust the lines and try again. I'm not talking about knuckles around the darts. These and all the other lines are automatically faired by the computer. What we find is that when we design a hull it can look fantastic from just about every angle, but if you rotate the hull, from one particular point of view it might look a little strange. Normally you might never see this problem, until one day you walk by the boat on the hard, or the boat is heeled over at a particular angle, or you hang your head over the railing at a particular angle. We don't want those surprises in the hull. We don't want anyone to say "yes, it is a bit rough, but look at how quickly it went together". We want you to say "yes, that is a sweet looking boat, and I can't believe how quickly it went together". After this process is completed, and we are satisfied with the shape we "slice" the hull to put in the 10 stations and waterline automatically, and run all the standard design numbers against the hull to make sure it will work the way we want. If not, we adjust the lines and darts and try again from the beginning until we finally get a hull that will do the job. At that point the design is plotted and folded in paper to make sure it looks good and to catch any silly mistakes. The cabin, cockpit, rudder and keel are added to suite the owners requirements. Everything is again rotated in 3-D and adjustments made until we are happy. General interior layouts can be added to suit the owners tastes, and the boat is ready for building. As you can see, even computerized the design of these boats is a time consuming process. We do not charge for this time when we build custom designs, we build them to an agreed price. We recoup our costs by selling your custom design to other builders as stock plans. To anyone considering doing their own designs in with paper and scissors, my advice is simply this. Don't use the results to build a boat. We built thousands of paper models before we computerized and they all had the same problem. A boat that folds fair in paper at 1/24 can look terrible full sized in metal. The problem is that at full size you want to be within about 1/8" to keep everything looking fair and smooth. Working at 1/24 this works out to be about the width of a human hair. You cannot achieve this with paper and scissors. Thus, when you build you boat at full scale, it will look rough, no matter how careful you are in the building. Even the smallest change in a pattern affects the whole boat. The process of designing hulls from the patterns inward to the hulls is complicated enough that we were never able to solve the problem. Instead we model the boats from the finished boat back to the patterns. In effect we "unzip" a finished hull along the darts, to get the patterns. There is no guess work in this part of the process. If you are going to spend thousands of dollars and quite a bit of your own time to build a boat, start out with a the most accurate pattern you can get. Then, the only variable in the building is the time and care you take. You will not be limited by the accuracy of the patterns. If you have a boat in paper that you like, we can computerize the hull and generate a pattern that will be accurate at full scale. This can be single, double, triple, or more darts as you desire. V hull or flat, makes no difference. We can check the numbers, and show you on the computer what the boat will look like from every angle, before you spend a $ on metal. If anyone has any further questions I'd be happy to answer them. I will be taking advantage of Alex's kind offer in the next few days to post more information on our designs and prices. thanks again, Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex and Kim Christie To: info@... Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hi Greg, It's no problem at all promoting your designs here, actually, and I'm glad you've come on board. The group started out as a Brent-origami boat group simply because I haven't found many others designing in the style, but I am happy that the group has done what I had hoped it would do: promote the idea, and act as a beacon to attract others who use the techniques as well. Patrick Bray did one origami design, but it has never been built, and there was Gunter at Sail-Tech (which unfortunately appeared to have only used the technique to save labour costs but not pass them on to the consumer, thereby negating one of the purposes of using the technique!), and Lundstrom design (of Touch-Cad fame) did a sailboat too (alu) in Sweden. Meta in France does their very expensive frameless aluminum boats, but beyond that I have found very little. So, the more the merrier. I agree, your boats are in a slightly different niche than Brent, though even if they were in the same niche I wouldn't sweat it; I believe there is strength in diversity. Possibly some crossover on the 40 footer, but the comparison is only valid by length. His 40 footer seems to have a completely different underbody than your boats (quite a vee shape meeting the keel). Gord Schnell is building one, and I have photos which attempt to show the shape of the underbody. I think he may be needing to work the kinks out of that one, but I don't know for sure. I have the plans for his 40 footer and would be intrigued to know what you think of them. If you'd like a higher profile for your designs in the group, I have a strategy which I think has had good effect for Brent's boats. People seem to respond to one of their own (me, usually) going out and either actually seeing a boat (with photos taken), and talking directly to the owner, then putting the experience up on the group. It provides a different point of view, like a reviewer for cars -- a better analogue being the design reviews in WoodenBoat magazine. In your case, being a designer, we could meet and I could do an informal interview, then write it up for public consumption. I'm really busy finishing off a house here on Denman Island which we are trying to sell in order to move to Buckley Bay, Vanc. Isle, but I imagine by July or August I'll be free of this commitment and able to do some boat or boat design "ogling". I am tired of house-building and would like to get back to the boatbuilding for which I trained! (Silva Bay Shipyard School, Gabriola). Ron Pearson (if I have the name right) sent me some drawings for the Darwin 60 a long time ago, and I did see some photos of Lazybones online at that time. I didn't realize that the designs were actively being promoted since then, so I am glad to hear of it. I have a file for Brent's address and a file for Brent's plans prices; if you'd like the same for yourself, then just forward the particulars to me, or go ahead and put the files in yourself. Where are you located? Regards, Alex PS, watch out for Jeff of the Light Displacement getting started on composites, or he'll never shut up! He has declared his dislike for metal boats, but has stayed on over the years as a lurker and even has his email delivery mode toggled to receive individual e-mails of every posting we put out. Every group has one or two of these who consider themselves "missionaries among the savages" and stay on despite being invited to step into the large boiling cauldron many times. Otherwise, he's relatively harmless, and has not purposefully flamed anyone (but certainly left a lot of dry tinder for me to sweep up before it catches alight). I set up another group, lightdisplacementcruisers , to create a new landscape for him, but it didn't work... ----- Original Message ----- From: info@... To: Alex and Kim Christie Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hi Alex, If you see any problems with me promoting our designs in this group please let me know. I have no plans to do anything blatant. Just to answer some questions and let people know we are available. I've been off sailing and might have the wrong idea about the group. I had the impression that origami referred to the technique. However, I have had some feedback that origami might be considered "Brent boat". I'm not here to step on anyone's toes and I don't want to cause further problems. I regret very much that we might have lost some people as a result. I don't think we are really competing with Brent's designs. In my mind our target market is more of the "upscale" builder, while Brent's boats appeal more to someone who wants to keep things simple, but that is only an assumption. I'm hoping that by answering questions I can expand the market for all. regards, Greg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1779|104|2003-06-07 17:22:08|prairiemaidca|Paint|Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid)| 1780|104|2003-06-07 21:34:51|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Hi Martin I believe "bitumastic" is a one part coal tar. From checking on the Internet it looks like lots of companies supply "bitumastic". The paint I used was from Labuan. It was thick, black, sticky and labeled "bitumastic". It was for the oil industry, to protect steel underwater. The paint remained slightly pliable when cured. Sort of like road tar. It definitely was not hard like coal tar epoxy. I should qualify my remarks about bitumastic. I did not use this paint on blasted steel. It was used to recoat and repair over top of epoxy inside the hull, and for temporary repairs under the waterline. Keep in mind this work was done in 30+C weather. In colder weather the bitumastic may not set fast enough to be used between tides, or may give different results all together. My reason for using the bitumastic was to find a cheap, simple, easy to use system to maintain the paint where blasting was not an option, and where it was difficult to get the steel perfectly clean. I was very happy with the results. On less than perfect surfaces I will continue to use bitumastic rather than an epoxy because it is easier to use and seems to last longer. I believe that this is because a pliable paint can give a bit, while a hard paint will crack, due to expansion of the rust. Bitumastic bleeds thru, so it is not suitable for overcoating with a color coat. On blasted steel I would go with an epoxy paint system. hope this helps. If anyone has more information on one part coal tar, and the contrast with coal tar epoxies, I would appreciate learning more as well. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: prairiemaidca To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Paint Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1781|104|2003-06-08 01:40:35|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|http://www.paintideas.com/glossary.asp?wordid=249 Bitumastic A protective coating made primarily for waterproofing. A coal tar or asphalt based coating material usually used in thick films. g ----- Original Message ----- From: prairiemaidca To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Paint Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1782|104|2003-06-08 01:53:55|Stephen Wandling|Re: Paint|Here in BC they use a black, tar like substance on the tow boats. The name I know is "Ace of Spades". Is that in the bitumastic family? info@... wrote: > http://www.paintideas.com/glossary.asp?wordid=249 > > Bitumastic > > A protective coating made primarily for waterproofing. A coal tar or > asphalt based coating material usually used in thick films. > > g > ----- Original Message ----- > From: prairiemaidca > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 2:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Paint > > > Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would > seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions > about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the > bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some > suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? > Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -- Sophocles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1784|1784|2003-06-09 00:58:18|jonhackett44|Stern tube material|Hey gang, Getting ready to install a diesel. Is there a preferred stern tube material? I'm leaning toward two inch, schedule 80 pipe, milled to accept a standard two inch cutlass bearing. Any thoughts? Also, I noticed in the "plans" for my 36 footer, a half inch by two inch "breastbone" extending from the bottom of the anchor well, along the centerline, to an unknown point. Does anyone know how far aft this extends on a twin keeler? Thanks Jon| 1785|104|2003-06-09 04:24:41|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Paint|The single pack bitumastic material appears in Oz as underbody coating for vehicles, sometimes called sound deadening paint, sometimes called Duraseal. This material is a challenge to apply in an even film, nearly impossible to control the thickness as it is sort-of stringy and likes to be warmed before application. For its intended uses, this feature is not an issue. This material will shrink over a very long period as the volatiles and plasticisers permeate out of the dried coating. No idea how this feature behaves in wet environments. Some car and truck dealers will arrange this coating on a new vehicle at extra cost. To put it on older units requires a major cleaning preparation, but not abrasive blasting of course. Re my previous comments on the life of epoxies: The data sheet for the resins not in the paint mix says:- Shelf Life: UNLIMITED. (source --- Estikos epoxy systems manual) A paint chemist is really the person to comment on the time before expiry questions. The variables between the mixes and types of amine, amine-adduct, polyamide, etc. and the pigmentation or thickeners used is likely to be well beyond us users without that knowledge. Terry -----Original Message----- From: prairiemaidca [mailto:bforster@...] Sent: Sunday, 8 June 2003 6:52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Paint Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/| 1786|104|2003-06-09 11:41:24|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Thanks Tony, There was an Oz registered vessel, Chimbu that sat for many years for sale after the owner died. It was painted inside with a black lumpy paint that sounds very much like what you are describing. I inspected the boat a few years back and the bilges were in better shape than the exterior paint. The problem for me has always been what to paint over less than perfect steel. It is often said that steel boats rust from the inside out. For me the reason is that it is impractical to blast inside a finished boat, thus it is impossible to get the steel clean enough to use on of the high tech and high priced epoxies with any degree of success. I can be a real heart breaker to spend a week lying in the bilges in 30+ temperatures, chipping and scraping, then spend a good bit of the cruising kitty on paint, only to see it start to fail in short order. My "solution" was to use low tech, cheap bitumastic. Something that is not sold as a "marine" paint, rather as a paint used to protect something else like sewer pipes, oil rigs, automobiles, etc. Yacht = $$, so if you can find a paint sold to another industry you might just get a break on price. It is ugly looking stuff, but down in the bilges that is not a drama. Ugly as it might be, it looks a whole lot better than rust. If someone else has a "solution" the problem of yachts rusting from the inside out I suspect everyone would like to hear. I know I would certainly appreciate any advice that might be out there. Even the very best epoxy applied to blasted steel eventually can/will fail, and I find the bilges the hardest place to repair. greg ps: I have received email suggesting that "bitumastic" is often not "bitumastic". True bitumastic has been banned in many application because it is toxic. As a result, many companies have come out with non-toxic formulas, but still use the name "bitumastic" because the old formulas worked so well. This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a yard manager in San Diego. He told me they didn't start seeing pox on FG yachts until the EPA in the US mandated they change the formula to reduce toxicity. I wonder if this isn't a problem with modern paints. Many of the older, toxic formulas worked quite well and are certainly cheap when you can find them. Red Lead for example. The newer formulas many not be toxic, but they aren't cheap. In general I have found that the higher tech the paint, the cleaner you need to get the steel before painting, and the more care required during painting. I'm waiting for the paint can that says: Steel must be rusty, dirty and oily before application. After all, if the steel looked good, why would I be painting it? ----- Original Message ----- From: T.H. & V.D. Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 1:24 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Paint The single pack bitumastic material appears in Oz as underbody coating for vehicles, sometimes called sound deadening paint, sometimes called Duraseal. This material is a challenge to apply in an even film, nearly impossible to control the thickness as it is sort-of stringy and likes to be warmed before application. For its intended uses, this feature is not an issue. This material will shrink over a very long period as the volatiles and plasticisers permeate out of the dried coating. No idea how this feature behaves in wet environments. Some car and truck dealers will arrange this coating on a new vehicle at extra cost. To put it on older units requires a major cleaning preparation, but not abrasive blasting of course. Re my previous comments on the life of epoxies: The data sheet for the resins not in the paint mix says:- Shelf Life: UNLIMITED. (source --- Estikos epoxy systems manual) A paint chemist is really the person to comment on the time before expiry questions. The variables between the mixes and types of amine, amine-adduct, polyamide, etc. and the pigmentation or thickeners used is likely to be well beyond us users without that knowledge. Terry -----Original Message----- From: prairiemaidca [mailto:bforster@...] Sent: Sunday, 8 June 2003 6:52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Paint Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1787|104|2003-06-09 14:42:23|edward_stoneuk|Re: Paint|When I was a lad on the farm we used bituminous paint on machinery, steel gates, inside rusting galvanised water tanks and on corrugatd iron roofs. It sticks to and seals almost anything. To repair rusted corrugated iron roofs we used hessian over the holes painting before and after with the bituminous paint to seal it. We used a small long handled broom to paint roofs with, softening the hard paint with diesel or paraffin before using it again. Small rust holes in water tanks were sealed with a pointed stick hammered in the holes from inside and then painted with the bitumen. I have an old tin of CRODA HYDROCARBONS bituminous paint in my shed now, we use it for the garden gate and nail heads in wooden fences. It is classed as safe for potable water. Regards, Ted| 1788|1761|2003-06-09 15:09:05|edward_stoneuk|Re: Electrolysis|Greg, The popular book on marine electrical systems you referred to might be "Boat owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder ISBN 0-7136-4291-2. It is an excellent book. Regards, Ted| 1789|1784|2003-06-09 15:26:35|edward_stoneuk|Re: Stern tube material|Jon, Some people think 2" Schedule 80 is fine some think it should be a heavier machine tube. I have bought Sched 80 for mine. Brent in his book says that the tube will go oval when it is welded and to sand the cutlass bearing to fit. I wrote to Brent last year about the stem bar. Here is my mail and his reply: "Brent, Some of the drawings show a 2" x ½" stem bar. Some don't. Do you recommend a stem bar and an internal vertical central keel bar on the bilge keel version. Regards, Ted Ted I reccommend a 2X1/2 inch stem bar on all my boats from the bottom of the anchor well to about a foot below the waterline, the impact zone if you hit a dock too hard .There is no need to,and no advatage to taking it further down. Brent Swain" Hope this is of use to you Jon. Regards, Ted| 1790|1761|2003-06-09 16:51:52|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Electrolysis|That's the one, thanks Ted! I recommend owners and builder read the book. Electrolysis is not difficult to prevent, and extremely expensive if you don't. Greg ps: To me, author's that promote metal boats without anodes are similar to author's that promote boats without engines. If you are skillful, have the right boat, and keep it in the right location, with some luck you might be able to succeed. However, for the average owner, anodes and engines are important safety devices. Controversy generates publicity, which sells books. These authors have a conflict of interests in promoting extreme positions. The problem is that as they gain popularity their readers can be led into danger. I recall a few years back we met an inexperienced couple with two small children, in a small boat, about to set out from Asia across the mid Pacific. They were planning to go right through the middle of Cyclone Alley, at a very bad time of year, and wait for wind, just because a pair of popular authors had done it that way. This was an extremely hazardous plan for these people, but they did not have the experience to recognize the risks. They did not have anything close to the skill level of the authors, and had a very high chance of meeting with mishap if they followed this course of action. They were actually very surprised to hear how dangerous their proposed passage was. What the authors had not explained was that because they did not have an engine or radar, they could not take the safer northern route, because this was through an area of calms and fog. Rather they had presented their route as the being best way to go, minimizing the risks. We knew some experienced sailors that were planning to make the same passage, but by the safer route, and were able to connect them up. Both these boats had motors, and at least one had radar, and they had a successful, and importantly, uneventful passage from Asia to North America. Keep in mind when reading personal stories from popular boating authors about their way being the right way or the only way. Many of these authors are exceptional, they sell books as a result, and what works for them doesn't always work for everyone. I see that the City of San Diego is placing anodes on their water system. And have a specification for bitumastic. http://www.sannet.gov/mwwd/general/cwpspecs/pdf/15025.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 12:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis Greg, The popular book on marine electrical systems you referred to might be "Boat owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder ISBN 0-7136-4291-2. It is an excellent book. Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1791|1791|2003-06-09 17:07:54|aklove2u|Paint |Just to add to the already long list of paint and what paints to use. For the below mentioned reasons I'm choosing to go with Wasser paint out of Kent, WA. 1. They are a single component moisture cure urethane. no need to worry about ratios and pot life. 2. They can be applied to a moist substrate, which I have tested and found to be true. 3. They can be applied at temperatures below freezing as long as the paint is 5 degrees warmer that the dew point. Which is easy to figure just build a simple hydrometer. 4. There is no outer recoat timeframe 5. The are as tenacious as can be. As tests I've applied it to loose rust, slag, loose dirt on plate, smoke residue from welding and various other things incl. my self and the garden hose. besides the paint on myself I've not been able to get any of the other test patches to come off after over 1 year. 6. They are reasonable priced with 1 gal. zinc primer being about 55 U.S. dollars. And most of the high build and topside paint running about 50-70 U.S. dollars a gallon. 7. They have been used to paint alaskan ferrys and the golden gate bridge. Both of which live in extreme environs and are under heavy use daily. I believe there web address is wasser.com or wasserindustries.com Greg| 1792|1761|2003-06-09 19:19:38|johm gorham|Re: Electrolysis|edward_stoneuk wrote:Greg, The popular book on marine electrical systems you referred to might be "Boat owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder ISBN 0-7136-4291-2. It is an excellent book. Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Hello,Iam sitting inLa paz.Paying mucho bucks to erace this spam.Please take me off your list...jon --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1793|1784|2003-06-10 02:02:54|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube material|Did Brent recommend the 2"x1/2" stem bar if the bow already had an internal 1/4" doubler plate? What is an internal vertical central keel bar? Gord edward_stoneuk wrote: > > Jon, > > Some people think 2" Schedule 80 is fine some think it > should be a > heavier machine tube. I have bought Sched 80 for mine. > Brent in his > book says that the tube will go oval when it is welded and > to sand > the cutlass bearing to fit. > > I wrote to Brent last year about the stem bar. Here is my > mail and > his reply: > > "Brent, > > Some of the drawings show a 2" x ½" stem bar. Some > don't. Do you > recommend a stem bar and an internal vertical central keel > bar on the > bilge > keel version. > > Regards, > > Ted > > Ted > I reccommend a 2X1/2 inch stem bar on all my boats from > the bottom > of the > anchor well to about a foot below the waterline, the > impact zone if > you hit > a dock too hard .There is no need to,and no advatage to > taking it > further > down. > Brent Swain" > > Hope this is of use to you Jon. > > Regards, > > Ted > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [Click Here!] > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1794|1784|2003-06-10 02:06:06|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube material|I'm just at this point now...installing a stern tube. Am I correct in assuming that the 2"x sched.80 stern tube pipe is Stainless Steel? This could be hard to find at the local scrap dealer. Gord jonhackett44 wrote: > > Hey gang, > Getting ready to install a diesel. Is there a preferred > stern tube > material? I'm leaning toward two inch, schedule 80 pipe, > milled to > accept a standard two inch cutlass bearing. > Any thoughts? > Also, I noticed in the "plans" for my 36 footer, a half > inch by two > inch "breastbone" extending from the bottom of the anchor > well, > along the centerline, to an unknown point. Does anyone > know how far > aft this extends on a twin keeler? > > Thanks > Jon > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1795|1791|2003-06-10 16:34:00|sae140|Re: Paint|In the context of the ongoing discussion regarding bitumastic paint, I'd add that 'bitumastic' paint appears to be a wide generic term and many grades of paint are sold under this name. Shortly after the war (in the 50's) this was one of the few paints readily available for the painting of exterior domestic metal work such as guttering, downpipes and gates. From memory, some grades of this paint suffered from alligator cracking if applied too thickly, and without allowing the extended drying time which is required between coats. Some bleeding of tar was also common in the summer when thick paint became exposed to direct sunlight. It was messy stuff to apply, would knacker your brushes, and was a bitch if you got some in your hair. But it protected steel well - even when applied to a dirty surface. Would thin with almost any distillate - white spirit, turps, paraffin, diesel, petrol etc. In the UK, there's a range of products sold under the "Aquaseal" brand name, mostly designed for water-proofing of roofing, creating damp-proof membranes, and similar applications. I have found this stuff useful for protecting steel, but it's not in the same league as bitumastic products. The one advantage over bitumastic is that Aquaseal is an emulsion, and as such can be applied directly to wet surfaces - indeed it can be thinned with water. When dry however, it becomes impervious to water, and can only be removed with white spirit or similar solvent. This too, is a bitch if it gets into your hair - so wear a hat if applying any of these products. If it should get into your hair - then cut the stuff out. **Never** be tempted to use petro-chem solvents around your face - I did once (when young and cavalier), and got a splash in my eyes. Blind for 24 hrs. 'nuff said. In his book "Steel Boatbuilding" (Vol 2, p.120/1), Tom Colvin makes reference to cement washes and the use of bitumastic cement in the treatment of bilge areas. A couple of years back I asked him about this 'bitumastic cement', only to find that he now uses latex cement instead - so I still don't know exactly what this 'bitumastic cement' stuff is ..... The following is Tom's reply, which I attach here as it may be useful to others: The bitumous compound that we used to use was put on at about 170° F and today would probably cause the safety board to require all kinds of precautions. Instead I use the cement, but rather than mix with water use liquid latex in lieu of water. This is the same type of latex that is used to mix up the grout used in swimming pool deck tiles. The first coat is brushable and about the consistency as thick cream. The next coating(s) are trowelled on and sand is mixed with the latex and cement. The reason for the latex is that it has better adhesion and will not shrink during the cure. On new steel, just cement and water will work but any shock loads are apt to fracture the feather edges and allow water to seep under. On pitted surfaces I do clean by wire brush, cold chisels, etc to remove all loose rust and scale. I then coat with a preparation such as OSPHO that converts rust into iron. Then the cement as above. I recently surveyed a vessel I built in the early 1960's and she has had a hard life not only in the Arctic but she also spent over 10 years in the tropics before completing her circumnavigation. All areas that were cemented in were still sound and only one frame bay below the shower showed any corrosion at the join of the cement and steel. Her cement mix was with water. I started using latex about 14 years ago as my whole house has a tile floor and happened to observe an unwashed bucket after several months exposed to the elements and full of water. NO separation and No creep. I do not believe in sand blasting the interiors of vessels because of health hazards and the mess it makes. I am aware of all the equipment available to offset the former but as a small builder cannot afford the purchase. As to the latter, there is no cure. A wheel barrow is a good example of how cement will adhere as well as preserve the metal. Most of mine have rusted from the outside in. Inasmuch as I believe in the "lifts and belt theory" I do the best as I can in preparing the metal and in doing so have no worry that my pants will fall down but still recognize that the zipper might fail and I will be referred to as an exhibitionist. With kindest regards, Tom Colvin Hope this is of interest to the debate, Colin| 1796|1761|2003-06-10 18:03:00|sae140|Re: Electrolysis|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > To me, author's that promote metal boats without anodes are similar to author's that promote boats without engines. If you are skillful, have the right boat, and keep it in the right location, with some luck you might be able to succeed. > > However, for the average owner, anodes and engines are important safety devices. > > Controversy generates publicity, which sells books. These authors have a conflict of interests in promoting extreme positions. The problem is that as they gain popularity their readers can be led into danger. What an extraordinary departure from truth ! Neither of the people I mentioned in a recent post 'promote' an anode-free philosophy. One - Nick Skeates - doesn't even write books (!) The other - Tom Colvin - simply mentions his own anode-free approach in passing - one single line of text within 450 pages - which hardly represents a promotion of an extreme position in order to sell a book, as you claim. Colin.| 1797|1232|2003-06-10 18:23:04|brentswain38|Re: Brent's Location?|I just arrived back on the west coast of Vancouver island from Tonga .I once tried to write cruising stories , but they all came out technical , so I wrote a technical book to get a place tom put all that stuff . What did I learn on this trip? The bigger the furling drum, the easier it is to furl a jib in strong winds . The reason that Lavac tells you to put the head pump above the bottom of the bowl is that if the diaphragm rots out , air leaks into the head instead of water leaking out. An acrylic sail cover on a furling jib makes it a lot tougher jib .Stay away from Kiribati. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S. " wrote: > Hey has anyone heard from Brent lately? I wish he would write a > book about his sailing adventures, I would love to hear about > where he has been and what he has learned. > Phil | 1798|1386|2003-06-10 18:43:58|brentswain38|Re: bow roller (book vs. Plans)|I started out with 6 inch wide bow rollers, but couldn't stow a couple of 55 lb delta anchors side by side on it. I changed my bow roller for an 8 inch wide one, a job that took less than an hour once the roller was made. I can now stow two 55 lb deltas side by side on the wider bow roller. Go for the wider one with an 8 by 8 inch base. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi all: It's minus 40c on the prairie and not much fun to be out > working with cold steel. I'm hoping to use a friends machine shop > and plasma for a mass stainless cutting spree, bow roller, mooring > bits etc.... In the book the bow roller picture shows it as being > 6.5in. wide and in the plans it is 8in. wide and a different height. > I'm looking at going with the 8in. in the plans... Opinions > please... Martin (prairie maid).... | 1799|1761|2003-06-10 21:44:32|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Electrolysis|Hey Colin! The email you quoted was written in reply to Ted in reference to Nigel Calder's excellent book. My point was simple. Rely more on authoritative works like Calder's and similar to make decisions. Author's that write popular sailing books are not always the best source of information and they should not be regarded as gospel. Not every day my writing gets called extraordinary! regards, Greg ps: I don't think I referenced anything you have written. I don't recall mentioning Nick Skeates or Tom Colvin. I wouldn't claim authors were promoting extreme positions to sell books. Rather, that they have a conflict of interests in doing so. Like newspapers, we hear a certain type of story not so much because the writers promote it, but because we buy it. ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > To me, author's that promote metal boats without anodes are similar to author's that promote boats without engines. If you are skillful, have the right boat, and keep it in the right location, with some luck you might be able to succeed. > > However, for the average owner, anodes and engines are important safety devices. > > Controversy generates publicity, which sells books. These authors have a conflict of interests in promoting extreme positions. The problem is that as they gain popularity their readers can be led into danger. What an extraordinary departure from truth ! Neither of the people I mentioned in a recent post 'promote' an anode-free philosophy. One - Nick Skeates - doesn't even write books (!) The other - Tom Colvin - simply mentions his own anode-free approach in passing - one single line of text within 450 pages - which hardly represents a promotion of an extreme position in order to sell a book, as you claim. Colin. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1800|1800|2003-06-11 02:26:09|Goodnatured|Origami Approach for Semi-Displacement Hulls|Much of the discussion here has been related to the origami design and construction of long distant, displacement, steel hulls. I am interested in Pacific-Northwest coastal cruising (maybe with a winter in the Baja thrown in!) on a semi-displacement type hull so that somewhat higher speeds are available to cover the large distances involved. I'd like to start a thread to solicit input from the members of this list about the suitability of using origami design and construction techniques for such a vessel. To provide a starting point I will describe "my ideal semi-displacement coastal cruiser" although clearly there are other types/looks of boat that would be classed as semi-displacement. Purpose: Spring, summer and fall cruising from Puget Sound to southern Alaska for a couple. Typically 3-6 weeks at a time. Can reprovision, take on water and fuel at least every two weeks and more often when underway north/south. 300Nm min range. Occasionally 4 people for a week at a time. Usage: At anchor every night. Occasionally ten hour days at cruising speeds of 10-11 knots but mostly 4-6 hours per day at ten knots. While underway is fun, we most enjoy the anchorages and exploring by dinghy ... so we want to make our way faster than displacement hull speeds would allow. Size: Displacement of 12,000 - 16,000 lbs (fully loaded including crew) would hopefully allow us to carry enough provisions, fuel and water to meet the stated purpose. Also, money is not unlimited so the lighter the better. Waterline line length of 32-36 feet (which implies cruising at speed-length ratios of 1.8 to 1.9) and beam of 10.5 to 12 ft. A proper design would have to determine the exact numbers but let's start the discussion here. Shape My preferred look is reminiscent of west coast workboats. Plumb bow and fine entry will maximize waterline length and reduce pounding when heading into a seaway. Wider and flatter stern than a displacement hull, with transom slightly underwater - an underwater body appropriate to operating at these higher speed-length ratios. Pilot house, flush decks forward (to maximize interior space), walkout to swim platform on stern. Material Unfortunately I think that steel would be too heavy so I assume that aluminum is the material to be used. Engine Single diesel engine that can provide power needed to cruise at elevated speed-length ratios but also can be throttled back to long distance hull speed operation without problems. Keel Protection for the prop and rudder would come from a central keel. I also really like the idea of twin keels in addition to the central keel. This would allow the vessel to be beached for cleaning and frequent underbody checks. I would also expect them to provide additional passive roll dampening at cruising speed and especially at anchor (where we spend more time than underway!). So ... the initial questions are: 1. Is the origami design and construction approach appropriate for such a vessel? 2. Would there be much cost saving (to build hull, deck and superstructure ie. the aluminum intensive construction part) with an origami approach? 3. These days conventional aluminum developed plate on frame welded construction can take advantage of CNC cutting to reduce costs - does this significantly reduce the cost differential between the two approaches and am I likely to find a builder who would pass on the cost savings to me? 4. Are twin keels appropriate for semi-displacement boats? 5. Pat Bray suggests that twin keels reduce the wave making resistance by partially canceling the stern wave and giving a flatter wake (http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/twinkeels.html). Is this also true at speed-length ratios approaching 2.0? 5. Are there any designers who are applying origami techniques to semi-displacement hulls or would I be breaking new ground? I'm sure there will be more questions as the discussion unfolds. Doug Chapman Saltspring Island, BC Canada ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 1801|1761|2003-06-11 04:45:53|sae140|Re: Electrolysis|Greg. Re: The email I quoted. As you well know, you are of course correct regarding the thread itself. However - please show me any reference within the thread you quote to an author promoting the idea of metal boats without anodes. This is very clearly a back-reference to an earlier post I made regarding 2 individuals who have successfully lived without anodes for decades. Unlike yourself, I am neither promoting nor rubbishing this idea. Greg, yet again (1,2) you are twisting facts in order to "make points" or win the ensuing arguments which in turn arise only because of your initial dogmatic approach. Which is a pity, for you're clearly a person with much first-hand experience which I believe is of interest to many. Incidently, when I wrote "extraordinary departure from truth" I was trying to politely point out that by twisting facts, yet another of your posts lacks integrity. And I say "politely", for I have no wish to start a flame war ... It is not so much the points you make (content), so much as the way you make them (process), which I am criticising. Regards Colin (1) > From the GVRD: The average person in the Greater Vancouver Regional District uses approximately 340 liters of water per day around the home." > This would be 44,000 lbs of water for a couple on a trip from Vancouver to Hawaii, with very little reserve. C'mon Greg ... this is a blatantly dishonest use of statistics, and using such figures doesn't add *anything* to your argument, for "... around the home" means just that: flush toilets, baths, washing machines, hosepipes, lawn-sprinklers, washing the car etc. - none of which exist on the sort of boats you're describing. (2) " To anyone considering doing their own designs in with paper and scissors, my advice is simply this. Don't use the results to build a boat. We built thousands of paper models before we computerized and they all had the same problem. A boat that folds fair in paper at 1/24 can look terrible full sized in metal." But you're selecting a size which suits your argument, which is in turn based largely on the size used ..... Circularity. A common but discredited rhetorical device. Build your model at 1/12 instead, enlarge any doubtful areas using a photocopier in order to take measurements, and it's a different story. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hey Colin! > > The email you quoted was written in reply to Ted in reference to Nigel Calder's excellent book. > > My point was simple. Rely more on authoritative works like Calder's and similar to make decisions. Author's that write popular sailing books are not always the best source of information and they should not be regarded as gospel. > > Not every day my writing gets called extraordinary! > > regards, Greg > > ps: > > I don't think I referenced anything you have written. I don't recall mentioning Nick Skeates or Tom Colvin. I wouldn't claim authors were promoting extreme positions to sell books. Rather, that they have a conflict of interests in doing so. Like newspapers, we hear a certain type of story not so much because the writers promote it, but because we buy it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > To me, author's that promote metal boats without anodes are similar > to author's that promote boats without engines. If you are skillful, > have the right boat, and keep it in the right location, with some > luck you might be able to succeed. > > > > However, for the average owner, anodes and engines are important > safety devices. > > > > Controversy generates publicity, which sells books. These authors > have a conflict of interests in promoting extreme positions. The > problem is that as they gain popularity their readers can be led into > danger. > > > What an extraordinary departure from truth ! Neither of the people I > mentioned in a recent post 'promote' an anode-free philosophy. One - > Nick Skeates - doesn't even write books (!) The other - Tom Colvin - > simply mentions his own anode-free approach in passing - one single > line of text within 450 pages - which hardly represents a promotion > of an extreme position in order to sell a book, as you claim. > > > Colin. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1802|104|2003-06-11 05:28:55|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Paint|Greg., I just had to respond to this one, especially the last line !!! What a good line ! Perhaps you should register that theme before some hi-tech outfit uses it to sell something. I also had a conversation in similar vein with a paint rep. who was looking at our Adams 40 when it was in the early stages of adding to the basic black hull. We had put on a holding primer (no abrasive blasting at that stage) of Zinc Chromate - Yellow, and it was intact and doing the job nicely. He looked at the hull and remarked "That's off the market now --- too toxic for general use" . I said " But it works doesn't it?" "Many things that work and last are no longer available" was his reply. Now we all? realise that as knowledge of consequential effects increases, we have to cease using some products in the interest of preservation of the species and its environment. What I would like is someone to reassure me that this was in fact the real issue, and not a drive to increase consumption of a recent product. If the real issue was the debris and its distribution or persistence in the environment when we blasted the hull to that lovely marcasite finish before zinc priming, then we could take the necessary steps to control that process. Instead, what happens is that the material is banned in the interest of the greater good. I guess that that is the safest way. Terry -----Original Message----- From: info@... [mailto:info@...] Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2003 1:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint Thanks Terry, There was an Oz registered vessel, Chimbu that sat for many years for sale after the owner died. It was painted inside with a black lumpy paint that sounds very much like what you are describing. I inspected the boat a few years back and the bilges were in better shape than the exterior paint. The problem for me has always been what to paint over less than perfect steel. It is often said that steel boats rust from the inside out. For me the reason is that it is impractical to blast inside a finished boat, thus it is impossible to get the steel clean enough to use on of the high tech and high priced epoxies with any degree of success. I can be a real heart breaker to spend a week lying in the bilges in 30+ temperatures, chipping and scraping, then spend a good bit of the cruising kitty on paint, only to see it start to fail in short order. My "solution" was to use low tech, cheap bitumastic. Something that is not sold as a "marine" paint, rather as a paint used to protect something else like sewer pipes, oil rigs, automobiles, etc. Yacht = $$, so if you can find a paint sold to another industry you might just get a break on price. It is ugly looking stuff, but down in the bilges that is not a drama. Ugly as it might be, it looks a whole lot better than rust. If someone else has a "solution" the problem of yachts rusting from the inside out I suspect everyone would like to hear. I know I would certainly appreciate any advice that might be out there. Even the very best epoxy applied to blasted steel eventually can/will fail, and I find the bilges the hardest place to repair. greg ps: I have received email suggesting that "bitumastic" is often not "bitumastic". True bitumastic has been banned in many application because it is toxic. As a result, many companies have come out with non-toxic formulas, but still use the name "bitumastic" because the old formulas worked so well. This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a yard manager in San Diego. He told me they didn't start seeing pox on FG yachts until the EPA in the US mandated they change the formula to reduce toxicity. I wonder if this isn't a problem with modern paints. Many of the older, toxic formulas worked quite well and are certainly cheap when you can find them. Red Lead for example. The newer formulas many not be toxic, but they aren't cheap. In general I have found that the higher tech the paint, the cleaner you need to get the steel before painting, and the more care required during painting. I'm waiting for the paint can that says: Steel must be rusty, dirty and oily before application. After all, if the steel looked good, why would I be painting it? ----- Original Message ----- From: T.H. & V.D. Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 1:24 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Paint The single pack bitumastic material appears in Oz as underbody coating for vehicles, sometimes called sound deadening paint, sometimes called Duraseal. This material is a challenge to apply in an even film, nearly impossible to control the thickness as it is sort-of stringy and likes to be warmed before application. For its intended uses, this feature is not an issue. This material will shrink over a very long period as the volatiles and plasticisers permeate out of the dried coating. No idea how this feature behaves in wet environments. Some car and truck dealers will arrange this coating on a new vehicle at extra cost. To put it on older units requires a major cleaning preparation, but not abrasive blasting of course. Re my previous comments on the life of epoxies: The data sheet for the resins not in the paint mix says:- Shelf Life: UNLIMITED. (source --- Estikos epoxy systems manual) A paint chemist is really the person to comment on the time before expiry questions. The variables between the mixes and types of amine, amine-adduct, polyamide, etc. and the pigmentation or thickeners used is likely to be well beyond us users without that knowledge. Terry -----Original Message----- From: prairiemaidca [mailto:bforster@...] Sent: Sunday, 8 June 2003 6:52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Paint Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | 1803|1232|2003-06-11 10:29:37|Red Green|Re: Brent's Location?|Welcome back Brent. Sounds like the trip was very informative for you. Good to be home for a bit though, Eh? Look forward to hearing more from you at origamiboats disscussion central. Regards, Danny O' >From: "brentswain38" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Brent's Location? >Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:23:00 -0000 > > I just arrived back on the west coast of Vancouver island from >Tonga .I once tried to write cruising stories , but they all came out >technical , so I wrote a technical book to get a place tom put all >that stuff . > What did I learn on this trip? The bigger the furling drum, the >easier it is to furl a jib in strong winds . The reason that Lavac >tells you to put the head pump above the bottom of the bowl is that >if the diaphragm rots out , air leaks into the head instead of water >leaking out. An acrylic sail cover on a furling jib makes it a lot >tougher jib .Stay away from Kiribati. > Brent Swain > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S. " > wrote: > > Hey has anyone heard from Brent lately? I wish he would write a > > book about his sailing adventures, I would love to hear about > > where he has been and what he has learned. > > Phil > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus| 1804|1765|2003-06-11 11:14:57|Michael Casling|Re: C-Flex|Greg wrote: ( my message follows a long way down ) Some people confuse weight with displacement. You will recall I wrote: >> I find that a better measurement when choosing a boat is displacement - which can be seen as the ability to carry weight (people, gear, food, water, fuel, spares, etc). << Weight in a ballasted yacht is never to be wished for, except as ballast. Heavier is definitely not better. The ability to take on weight in the form of fresh water, fuel, people, gear, stores and spares without compromising the handling and safety of the boat is what I am talking about. Many of the pioneers in modern offshore cruising were exceptional people. You will recall I wrote: >> When we first started 39 feet was one of the biggest boats in the fleet - now we are one of the smallest. It could well be that over the next few years 8 tons per person will be considered small. << People that live in houses take for granted many of the simple pleasures. The simple pleasures that disappear when you go cruising aboard a yacht. These are the big ones: 1. fresh water. 2. refrigeration/freezer. 3. electricity. Go to the tropics and tell your next ex-wife that for the next year the only shower she is going to get will be in salt water, or standing outside when it rains. No cold drinks, no ice, and no fans at night when it is hot and she can't sleep. No fresh food, no frozen food. Every meal out of a can unless you catch some fish and she doesn't get seasick from the smell. Now tell her that she can have the comforts of home because you have a boat that can carry the weight. Who is going to go cruising and who is going to stay home? You will recall I wrote: >> The choice of crew will affect these numbers. A hardened male crew can survive on a yacht that will result in instant divorce for a married couple. << There are people that can sail under conditions that will demoralize and break most of us over time. These people are exceptional and the Hiscocks are certainly among them. They are the people we read about because they are the exceptions. Stories about average people don't sell very well. As you recall I wrote: >> There are no wrong answers on this topic. << Please you not cut up my email and include it as part of your own. It is confusing and misleading the way your email is written. A reader could easily be misled to think I wrote statements that were in fact written by yourself. Why not write something that can stand on its own? Why piggy-back on my work? Tell us what you consider to be the correct size of yacht for yourself and why. Then, calculate the answer using the number of people, duration of trip, and the gear you want to take. Calculate the supplies and spare, and allow sufficient reserve. Then calculate the weight and come up with the minimum displacement of yacht likely to be able to carry this load safely. I think you will find the results an eye opener. I've done some of the work for you in the PS. If you get stuck I'm here to help out. regards greg ps: >From the GVRD: The average person in the Greater Vancouver Regional District uses approximately 340 liters of water per day around the home." This would be 44,000 lbs of water for a couple on a trip from Vancouver to Hawaii, with very little reserve. You cannot fit 44,000 lbs of fresh water safely in the typical 8,000 lb yacht. Thus, you need to ration. Lubbers can find water rationing a BIG shock when they move aboard. The amount of water they use ashore compared to the amount available afloat. In the tropics the minimum requirement is 4 liters per person per day for drinking alone. Cooking and washing say another 4 liters per day per person. Most people will need practice to maintain these numbers if they use fresh water for anything other than drinking. A 1 month passage for 2 people, with 50% reserve is 1600 lbs of water. Adding 1600 lbs of water to an 8000 lb boat will be close to the limit for the boat, with no reserve capacity to carry people, gear, stores, or spares. So, we cannot allow bathing or washing in fresh. Use the juice from your canned food to do the cooking. Select the correct canned food to match any dry foods being eaten. To take that boat from Vancouver to Hawaii you cannot use fresh water except for drinking. Cut back to 800 lbs of water (80 gallons) which is probably close to the size of FW tanks anyway. Pray for rain and make sure you have a good rain catcher. The list goes on and on of things you would like to have, but can only have if your boat can carry the weight. Refrigerator, freezer, generator, tv, video player, tools, spares, more tools, more spares, paint, glue, clothing, medicine. Towels. You can never have too many towels aboard a boat. Food. radios, binoculars, GPS, charts, computer and electronic charts, knotlog, sounder, compass and spare. Spare GPS or sextant for those of us that learned to use one and still have the tables and almanac. Extra house battery. solar panels. fenders, lifejackets, flares, horn. Floodlight, ladder, pole. books, books, and more books. Rope, chain, anchors, line, sails, sails and more sails. Sewing machine. liferaft. more spares. How about a spare outboard engine and spare dinghy. You've just spent all this time getting out to the islands, and your dinghy is lost. How are you going to get to shore. Your dinghy engine quits and all you have is an inflatable. You can't row these against the wind or tide, what are you going to do? Go to the store? You can' t because the nearest store is 3 months round trip. Your trip to the South Pacific that you have spend planning all these years is ruined. How about a SCUBA compressor, tanks and other diving gear for 2 people. You came all this way out to the islands and want to go diving, but can't fill your tanks without a compressor. Your anchor fouls at 90 feet. How are you going to get it without SCUBA gear. Are you going to break off your $1000 anchor and chain and leave it behind? Do you have enough spares anchors to do this? I picked up a really nice 40 lb Bruce and 500 feet of 3/8 chain one night in the Great Barrier Reef. We were anchored for the night, a squall came in and popped our anchor. I had a heck of a time getting the anchor up as we drifted merrily through the coral in the pitch blackness. When it came aboard there was a complete anchor and chain wrapped around my anchor. It had fouled us when I set the anchor, as a result we broke free during the squall. Getting back to the anchorage in the dark, thru the coral is another story. One of my sailing buddies has a great story about spare anchors. He was on a Moorings Charter in the Caribbean, and every morning they call in on the radio to see if anyone needs anything. On the third morning one of the boats called in to say they needed some more of "those anchor things". They had been anchoring faithfully every night just like they were instructed, and in the morning letting go the bitter end and sailing away. When they got the instructions on how to anchor, no one told them to bring the anchor up afterwards. I am assured this is a true story. I just can't see how the anchor got from the Caribbean to Oz. A Cyclone is on the way. Do you have sufficient spare anchors, chain and warps to hold the boat, or will it be lost? Do you have sufficient fuel to motor 500-1000 miles? Fuel saved us from a cyclone that claimed 2 other yachts between New Caledonia and Australia. We were becalmed as the cyclone was forming up. There was no weather warning. We motored out from under it, just because the ocean didn't feel right to me. I can't describe it except to say that when I looked out on the ocean after the wind died the hair stood up on the back of my neck. I had a real strong feeling we were in deep KimChee. I didn't turn the engine off for 5 days, arriving with 5 liters of fuel to spare, shaken but not stirred. We were so lucky on that one. Only having 5 liters of fuel reserve served as a warning. While in Oz I added another 150 liters of fuel tanks and another 200 liters of water tanks. END OF GREG MESSAGE ABOVE Greg, I guess I touched a hot button with my reference to aluminum in trucks and your choice of building material, and I do not question you for defending your postition. You have experience and knowledge which are nice assetts. What would help is if you could present that with out trying to make the listener appear to be a moron. Also you raise so many points in one message that you appear to want to bury the reader with info and ideas. I can not and will not address all the issues you have raised in one e-mail. But to hilight a couple of the points you raised. ( Confusing weight with displacement ). Tough accusation against someone who has quite a few years of boating. I will stick with David Gerr's book on the subject and my own knowledge and be comfortable with that. ( Piggy back on your designs ) Furthest thing from my mind. ( Draw my own boat ) Did that 21 years ago it is 36 feet LOA 30 feet LWL 11 feet beam, 11000 pound displacement, 5' 9 " draft 4000 pound ballast, 50 foot mast keel stepped 14 foot boom. ( Water, 44000 pounds of water required from Vancouver to Hawaii. You wrote it ) Maybe a statement to the effect. " Have you given consideration to the amount of water required ? " Now isn't that a bit more user friendly? Would you like to know the amount of water we use in South East Kelowna where 96 percent of it goes on the ground? ( Cut up e-mail ) I aggree that a dividing line would have helped. ( Your next ex wife ) What an unfortunate choice of words. Sounds personel doesn't it? Almost implies that I already have one or more ex wives already, and if I do not follow your advice I will have another ex wife. Again, you wrote it. It all started with a question on C flex that Jeff answered in a fine manner. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1805|1805|2003-06-11 12:02:06|kwing175|Design Comparisons|Group, This link, http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html, provides comparison of several design ratios between approx. 1,100 sailboats. If someone supplies the required data for the Brent Swain designs comparisons to similar vessels could be made. The data required is LOA,LWL,Beam,Dsiplacement and Sail area. Regards, Keith| 1806|1784|2003-06-11 16:25:20|Edward Stone|Re: Stern tube material|Gord, I don't know about the ¼" doubler plate. Brent is back now and may be able to help when he has got this far in the messages. An internal vertical central keel bar is like a stem bar but is along the inside of the bottom of the boat. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1807|1232|2003-06-11 16:33:10|Edward Stone|Re: Brent's Location?|Welcome back Brent. What was wrong at Kiribati? Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1808|1784|2003-06-12 00:19:41|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube material|OK Ted. Purpose of the central keel bar is? Gord Edward Stone wrote: > > Gord, > I don't know about the ¼" doubler plate. Brent is back > now and may be able to help when he has got this far in > the messages. An internal vertical central keel bar is > like a stem bar but is along the inside of the bottom of > the boat. > Regards, > Ted > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1809|1784|2003-06-12 04:15:44|Edward Stone|Re: Stern tube material|Gord, The vertical central keel bar is part of the frame on framed boats the same as longitudinal stringers and chine bars. Some boats have them and some don't. I think I got the name from " Elements of Boat Strength" by Dave Gerr ISBN 0-7136-5287-X Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1810|1784|2003-06-12 19:42:54|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube material|Thanks Ted. I'll research that. To the best of my knowledge, origami boats don't employ them. Gord Edward Stone wrote: > > Gord, > > The vertical central keel bar is part of the frame on > framed boats the same as longitudinal stringers and chine > bars. Some boats have them and some don't. I think I got > the name from " Elements of Boat Strength" by Dave Gerr > ISBN 0-7136-5287-X > > Regards, > > Ted > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1811|104|2003-06-12 19:43:11|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Paint|Hi Terry I've told that joke so many times over the years that the wife and kids have threatened to do me bodily harm if they ever hear it again. Luckily I have a new group of victims. I can't remember where I stole it from. A stand-up comedy routine years ago I think. Sounds like your paint rep confirms the problem. Unfortunately "health issues" are a tempting way to get rid of the competition, without necessarily being any better or safer. Margarine killed butter, and now butter is better. Until the next ad campaign. I have heard, but not confirmed, that all toxic bottom paint is to be banned by 2010 by international treaty. Followed to conclusion the only thing you will be allowed to paint on steel will be water. But it will be distilled for purity, irradiated for safety, and lemon fresh. Guaranteed more effective than plain water alone. greg ----- Original Message ----- From: T.H. & V.D. Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 2:28 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Paint Greg., I just had to respond to this one, especially the last line !!! What a good line ! Perhaps you should register that theme before some hi-tech outfit uses it to sell something. I also had a conversation in similar vein with a paint rep. who was looking at our Adams 40 when it was in the early stages of adding to the basic black hull. We had put on a holding primer (no abrasive blasting at that stage) of Zinc Chromate - Yellow, and it was intact and doing the job nicely. He looked at the hull and remarked "That's off the market now --- too toxic for general use" . I said " But it works doesn't it?" "Many things that work and last are no longer available" was his reply. Now we all? realise that as knowledge of consequential effects increases, we have to cease using some products in the interest of preservation of the species and its environment. What I would like is someone to reassure me that this was in fact the real issue, and not a drive to increase consumption of a recent product. If the real issue was the debris and its distribution or persistence in the environment when we blasted the hull to that lovely marcasite finish before zinc priming, then we could take the necessary steps to control that process. Instead, what happens is that the material is banned in the interest of the greater good. I guess that that is the safest way. Terry -----Original Message----- From: info@... [mailto:info@...] Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2003 1:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Paint Thanks Terry, There was an Oz registered vessel, Chimbu that sat for many years for sale after the owner died. It was painted inside with a black lumpy paint that sounds very much like what you are describing. I inspected the boat a few years back and the bilges were in better shape than the exterior paint. The problem for me has always been what to paint over less than perfect steel. It is often said that steel boats rust from the inside out. For me the reason is that it is impractical to blast inside a finished boat, thus it is impossible to get the steel clean enough to use on of the high tech and high priced epoxies with any degree of success. I can be a real heart breaker to spend a week lying in the bilges in 30+ temperatures, chipping and scraping, then spend a good bit of the cruising kitty on paint, only to see it start to fail in short order. My "solution" was to use low tech, cheap bitumastic. Something that is not sold as a "marine" paint, rather as a paint used to protect something else like sewer pipes, oil rigs, automobiles, etc. Yacht = $$, so if you can find a paint sold to another industry you might just get a break on price. It is ugly looking stuff, but down in the bilges that is not a drama. Ugly as it might be, it looks a whole lot better than rust. If someone else has a "solution" the problem of yachts rusting from the inside out I suspect everyone would like to hear. I know I would certainly appreciate any advice that might be out there. Even the very best epoxy applied to blasted steel eventually can/will fail, and I find the bilges the hardest place to repair. greg ps: I have received email suggesting that "bitumastic" is often not "bitumastic". True bitumastic has been banned in many application because it is toxic. As a result, many companies have come out with non-toxic formulas, but still use the name "bitumastic" because the old formulas worked so well. This reminds me of a conversation I once had with a yard manager in San Diego. He told me they didn't start seeing pox on FG yachts until the EPA in the US mandated they change the formula to reduce toxicity. I wonder if this isn't a problem with modern paints. Many of the older, toxic formulas worked quite well and are certainly cheap when you can find them. Red Lead for example. The newer formulas many not be toxic, but they aren't cheap. In general I have found that the higher tech the paint, the cleaner you need to get the steel before painting, and the more care required during painting. I'm waiting for the paint can that says: Steel must be rusty, dirty and oily before application. After all, if the steel looked good, why would I be painting it? ----- Original Message ----- From: T.H. & V.D. Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 1:24 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Paint The single pack bitumastic material appears in Oz as underbody coating for vehicles, sometimes called sound deadening paint, sometimes called Duraseal. This material is a challenge to apply in an even film, nearly impossible to control the thickness as it is sort-of stringy and likes to be warmed before application. For its intended uses, this feature is not an issue. This material will shrink over a very long period as the volatiles and plasticisers permeate out of the dried coating. No idea how this feature behaves in wet environments. Some car and truck dealers will arrange this coating on a new vehicle at extra cost. To put it on older units requires a major cleaning preparation, but not abrasive blasting of course. Re my previous comments on the life of epoxies: The data sheet for the resins not in the paint mix says:- Shelf Life: UNLIMITED. (source --- Estikos epoxy systems manual) A paint chemist is really the person to comment on the time before expiry questions. The variables between the mixes and types of amine, amine-adduct, polyamide, etc. and the pigmentation or thickeners used is likely to be well beyond us users without that knowledge. Terry -----Original Message----- From: prairiemaidca [mailto:bforster@...] Sent: Sunday, 8 June 2003 6:52 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Paint Hi All: I'm following the paint talk with much intrest. It would seem that metal boats and paint will always bring up many opinions about what and what not to use. I'm very curious about the bitumastic type of paint. Can someone give me the names of some suppliers and is bitumastic a brand name or is it a type of paint? Thanks Martin (Prairie Maid) To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1812|1761|2003-06-12 21:03:33|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Electrolysis|Hi Colin, The motion of a metal boat thru the water, or tidal currents moving past a metal boat at a mooring will induce electricity in the hull. Without protection, this will lead to electrolysis, with the damage most pronounced at the ends. The rudder, being close to one end on most boats is very susceptible to this damage, and is at risk to fail catastrophically on an unprotected metal boat that sails long enough. This failure is more likely to occur when the boat is offshore in high seas or storm conditions. The loss of steering at this time may lead to motion in the yacht beyond its stability limits and result in the yacht being overwhelmed. If the yacht survives, the crew has the uncertain prospect of rigging a temporary rudder, or being rescued and scuttling the abandoned yacht to remove a hazard to navigation. The pragmatic sailor realizes that anodes provide a lost cost, simple and effective solution to protect against electrolysis. Any metal yacht that has been left unprotected must be viewed with the utmost suspicion for offshore use. There are many causes of electrolysis and aspects to protection beyond anodes, and I urge anyone building, owning, buying or sailing a metal boat to consult an authoritative reference for better information. Do not take my word on this subject. The question of whether metal yachts need to be protected is not an issue that I will debate. To me there is no question on this issue -- to promote unprotected metal yachts is at best uninformed, at worst a menace to public safety. I believe this group would be better served by discussing the causes of electrolysis and how to protect against them. regards, greg. ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 1:45 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis Greg. Re: The email I quoted. As you well know, you are of course correct regarding the thread itself. However - please show me any reference within the thread you quote to an author promoting the idea of metal boats without anodes. This is very clearly a back-reference to an earlier post I made regarding 2 individuals who have successfully lived without anodes for decades. Unlike yourself, I am neither promoting nor rubbishing this idea. Greg, yet again (1,2) you are twisting facts in order to "make points" or win the ensuing arguments which in turn arise only because of your initial dogmatic approach. Which is a pity, for you're clearly a person with much first-hand experience which I believe is of interest to many. Incidently, when I wrote "extraordinary departure from truth" I was trying to politely point out that by twisting facts, yet another of your posts lacks integrity. And I say "politely", for I have no wish to start a flame war ... It is not so much the points you make (content), so much as the way you make them (process), which I am criticising. Regards Colin (1) > From the GVRD: The average person in the Greater Vancouver Regional District uses approximately 340 liters of water per day around the home." > This would be 44,000 lbs of water for a couple on a trip from Vancouver to Hawaii, with very little reserve. C'mon Greg ... this is a blatantly dishonest use of statistics, and using such figures doesn't add *anything* to your argument, for "... around the home" means just that: flush toilets, baths, washing machines, hosepipes, lawn-sprinklers, washing the car etc. - none of which exist on the sort of boats you're describing. (2) " To anyone considering doing their own designs in with paper and scissors, my advice is simply this. Don't use the results to build a boat. We built thousands of paper models before we computerized and they all had the same problem. A boat that folds fair in paper at 1/24 can look terrible full sized in metal." But you're selecting a size which suits your argument, which is in turn based largely on the size used ..... Circularity. A common but discredited rhetorical device. Build your model at 1/12 instead, enlarge any doubtful areas using a photocopier in order to take measurements, and it's a different story. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hey Colin! > > The email you quoted was written in reply to Ted in reference to Nigel Calder's excellent book. > > My point was simple. Rely more on authoritative works like Calder's and similar to make decisions. Author's that write popular sailing books are not always the best source of information and they should not be regarded as gospel. > > Not every day my writing gets called extraordinary! > > regards, Greg > > ps: > > I don't think I referenced anything you have written. I don't recall mentioning Nick Skeates or Tom Colvin. I wouldn't claim authors were promoting extreme positions to sell books. Rather, that they have a conflict of interests in doing so. Like newspapers, we hear a certain type of story not so much because the writers promote it, but because we buy it. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:02 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > To me, author's that promote metal boats without anodes are similar > to author's that promote boats without engines. If you are skillful, > have the right boat, and keep it in the right location, with some > luck you might be able to succeed. > > > > However, for the average owner, anodes and engines are important > safety devices. > > > > Controversy generates publicity, which sells books. These authors > have a conflict of interests in promoting extreme positions. The > problem is that as they gain popularity their readers can be led into > danger. > > > What an extraordinary departure from truth ! Neither of the people I > mentioned in a recent post 'promote' an anode-free philosophy. One - > Nick Skeates - doesn't even write books (!) The other - Tom Colvin - > simply mentions his own anode-free approach in passing - one single > line of text within 450 pages - which hardly represents a promotion > of an extreme position in order to sell a book, as you claim. > > > Colin. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1813|1765|2003-06-12 21:14:40|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: C-Flex|Hi Mike, I've got no axe to grind with you. If you throw stones why complain if a few bounce back? Lets put that behind us and talk about your design. I am interested in your boat. From your writing it sounds like you have drawn it up and not yet built it. Maybe if we talk about it a bit and review what you have done it will spark an interest in building? Yes? regards, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: C-Flex Greg wrote: ( my message follows a long way down ) Some people confuse weight with displacement. You will recall I wrote: >> I find that a better measurement when choosing a boat is displacement - which can be seen as the ability to carry weight (people, gear, food, water, fuel, spares, etc). << Weight in a ballasted yacht is never to be wished for, except as ballast. Heavier is definitely not better. The ability to take on weight in the form of fresh water, fuel, people, gear, stores and spares without compromising the handling and safety of the boat is what I am talking about. Many of the pioneers in modern offshore cruising were exceptional people. You will recall I wrote: >> When we first started 39 feet was one of the biggest boats in the fleet - now we are one of the smallest. It could well be that over the next few years 8 tons per person will be considered small. << People that live in houses take for granted many of the simple pleasures. The simple pleasures that disappear when you go cruising aboard a yacht. These are the big ones: 1. fresh water. 2. refrigeration/freezer. 3. electricity. Go to the tropics and tell your next ex-wife that for the next year the only shower she is going to get will be in salt water, or standing outside when it rains. No cold drinks, no ice, and no fans at night when it is hot and she can't sleep. No fresh food, no frozen food. Every meal out of a can unless you catch some fish and she doesn't get seasick from the smell. Now tell her that she can have the comforts of home because you have a boat that can carry the weight. Who is going to go cruising and who is going to stay home? You will recall I wrote: >> The choice of crew will affect these numbers. A hardened male crew can survive on a yacht that will result in instant divorce for a married couple. << There are people that can sail under conditions that will demoralize and break most of us over time. These people are exceptional and the Hiscocks are certainly among them. They are the people we read about because they are the exceptions. Stories about average people don't sell very well. As you recall I wrote: >> There are no wrong answers on this topic. << Please you not cut up my email and include it as part of your own. It is confusing and misleading the way your email is written. A reader could easily be misled to think I wrote statements that were in fact written by yourself. Why not write something that can stand on its own? Why piggy-back on my work? Tell us what you consider to be the correct size of yacht for yourself and why. Then, calculate the answer using the number of people, duration of trip, and the gear you want to take. Calculate the supplies and spare, and allow sufficient reserve. Then calculate the weight and come up with the minimum displacement of yacht likely to be able to carry this load safely. I think you will find the results an eye opener. I've done some of the work for you in the PS. If you get stuck I'm here to help out. regards greg ps: >From the GVRD: The average person in the Greater Vancouver Regional District uses approximately 340 liters of water per day around the home." This would be 44,000 lbs of water for a couple on a trip from Vancouver to Hawaii, with very little reserve. You cannot fit 44,000 lbs of fresh water safely in the typical 8,000 lb yacht. Thus, you need to ration. Lubbers can find water rationing a BIG shock when they move aboard. The amount of water they use ashore compared to the amount available afloat. In the tropics the minimum requirement is 4 liters per person per day for drinking alone. Cooking and washing say another 4 liters per day per person. Most people will need practice to maintain these numbers if they use fresh water for anything other than drinking. A 1 month passage for 2 people, with 50% reserve is 1600 lbs of water. Adding 1600 lbs of water to an 8000 lb boat will be close to the limit for the boat, with no reserve capacity to carry people, gear, stores, or spares. So, we cannot allow bathing or washing in fresh. Use the juice from your canned food to do the cooking. Select the correct canned food to match any dry foods being eaten. To take that boat from Vancouver to Hawaii you cannot use fresh water except for drinking. Cut back to 800 lbs of water (80 gallons) which is probably close to the size of FW tanks anyway. Pray for rain and make sure you have a good rain catcher. The list goes on and on of things you would like to have, but can only have if your boat can carry the weight. Refrigerator, freezer, generator, tv, video player, tools, spares, more tools, more spares, paint, glue, clothing, medicine. Towels. You can never have too many towels aboard a boat. Food. radios, binoculars, GPS, charts, computer and electronic charts, knotlog, sounder, compass and spare. Spare GPS or sextant for those of us that learned to use one and still have the tables and almanac. Extra house battery. solar panels. fenders, lifejackets, flares, horn. Floodlight, ladder, pole. books, books, and more books. Rope, chain, anchors, line, sails, sails and more sails. Sewing machine. liferaft. more spares. How about a spare outboard engine and spare dinghy. You've just spent all this time getting out to the islands, and your dinghy is lost. How are you going to get to shore. Your dinghy engine quits and all you have is an inflatable. You can't row these against the wind or tide, what are you going to do? Go to the store? You can' t because the nearest store is 3 months round trip. Your trip to the South Pacific that you have spend planning all these years is ruined. How about a SCUBA compressor, tanks and other diving gear for 2 people. You came all this way out to the islands and want to go diving, but can't fill your tanks without a compressor. Your anchor fouls at 90 feet. How are you going to get it without SCUBA gear. Are you going to break off your $1000 anchor and chain and leave it behind? Do you have enough spares anchors to do this? I picked up a really nice 40 lb Bruce and 500 feet of 3/8 chain one night in the Great Barrier Reef. We were anchored for the night, a squall came in and popped our anchor. I had a heck of a time getting the anchor up as we drifted merrily through the coral in the pitch blackness. When it came aboard there was a complete anchor and chain wrapped around my anchor. It had fouled us when I set the anchor, as a result we broke free during the squall. Getting back to the anchorage in the dark, thru the coral is another story. One of my sailing buddies has a great story about spare anchors. He was on a Moorings Charter in the Caribbean, and every morning they call in on the radio to see if anyone needs anything. On the third morning one of the boats called in to say they needed some more of "those anchor things". They had been anchoring faithfully every night just like they were instructed, and in the morning letting go the bitter end and sailing away. When they got the instructions on how to anchor, no one told them to bring the anchor up afterwards. I am assured this is a true story. I just can't see how the anchor got from the Caribbean to Oz. A Cyclone is on the way. Do you have sufficient spare anchors, chain and warps to hold the boat, or will it be lost? Do you have sufficient fuel to motor 500-1000 miles? Fuel saved us from a cyclone that claimed 2 other yachts between New Caledonia and Australia. We were becalmed as the cyclone was forming up. There was no weather warning. We motored out from under it, just because the ocean didn't feel right to me. I can't describe it except to say that when I looked out on the ocean after the wind died the hair stood up on the back of my neck. I had a real strong feeling we were in deep KimChee. I didn't turn the engine off for 5 days, arriving with 5 liters of fuel to spare, shaken but not stirred. We were so lucky on that one. Only having 5 liters of fuel reserve served as a warning. While in Oz I added another 150 liters of fuel tanks and another 200 liters of water tanks. END OF GREG MESSAGE ABOVE Greg, I guess I touched a hot button with my reference to aluminum in trucks and your choice of building material, and I do not question you for defending your postition. You have experience and knowledge which are nice assetts. What would help is if you could present that with out trying to make the listener appear to be a moron. Also you raise so many points in one message that you appear to want to bury the reader with info and ideas. I can not and will not address all the issues you have raised in one e-mail. But to hilight a couple of the points you raised. ( Confusing weight with displacement ). Tough accusation against someone who has quite a few years of boating. I will stick with David Gerr's book on the subject and my own knowledge and be comfortable with that. ( Piggy back on your designs ) Furthest thing from my mind. ( Draw my own boat ) Did that 21 years ago it is 36 feet LOA 30 feet LWL 11 feet beam, 11000 pound displacement, 5' 9 " draft 4000 pound ballast, 50 foot mast keel stepped 14 foot boom. ( Water, 44000 pounds of water required from Vancouver to Hawaii. You wrote it ) Maybe a statement to the effect. " Have you given consideration to the amount of water required ? " Now isn't that a bit more user friendly? Would you like to know the amount of water we use in South East Kelowna where 96 percent of it goes on the ground? ( Cut up e-mail ) I aggree that a dividing line would have helped. ( Your next ex wife ) What an unfortunate choice of words. Sounds personel doesn't it? Almost implies that I already have one or more ex wives already, and if I do not follow your advice I will have another ex wife. Again, you wrote it. It all started with a question on C flex that Jeff answered in a fine manner. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1814|1814|2003-06-13 12:43:59|info@easysoftwareinc.com|New 50 foot design|We are looking for people interested in building/owning a new 50 foot design. The boat will be center cockpit, twin keel, shoal draft, skeg rudder, 3-dart origami suitable for construction in alloy or steel. The boat is planned to be a scaled version of the Darwin 60, with a modern rig and house. We have not finalized the boat and will work with builders/owners to suit. Our target price is $750 for the plans and license, which includes patterns for all the major components - hull, keels, rudder, deck and house. For further information please contact: Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: X50@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1815|1814|2003-06-13 12:48:56|info@easysoftwareinc.com|New 50 foot design|see attached some 2-dart 50's http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/JM50/JM50.htm http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Harvey50/Harvey50.htm Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: X50@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1816|1816|2003-06-13 14:33:57|info@easysoftwareinc.com|tips and tricks|One idea I find useful when attaching hoses and there is not enough room to put on two hose clamps: Normally, you should put two hose clamps on any plumbing fittings. I have never seen a stainless hose clamp that didn't fail eventually, except when stored in the parts bin. Also, how may times have you bought a "stainless" hose clamp only to find out the screw wasn't stainless? It isn't enough that it says stainless, now it must say "all stainless". A small pencil magnet carried at all times is a must for a yacht builder/owner when shopping. When there is not enough room on the barb for two hose clamps the solution I have used is very heavy fishing line. Lash this first around the hose, using a stick to keep the tension without cutting your hands, and every few wraps tuck the line under itself to lock the lashing. Place the hose clamp over to protect the lashing. Depending on the weight of fishing line, and the tension you apply, the fishing line will hold the hose better than the hose clamp. The hose clamp is more to protect the line from abrasion, and as a backup. Don't tighten the fishing line to the point where it cuts through the rubber hose! In a pinch at sea and your spares run out, the fishing line alone will do the job and keep you from sinking. I first used this trick for just that reason. I had lots of hose clamps, but none left the right size, and lots of water to deal with. Be ready to improvise while cruising, because it can be difficult to find "store bought" parts. Don't assume you can't fix something just because you don't have the parts. With time, patience and persistence you can do the impossible. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1817|1816|2003-06-13 14:59:20|info@easysoftwareinc.com|tips and tricks|Cleaning the anchor chain: Ok, this has absolutely nothing to do with origami boats, which is why I'm writing it. In SE Asia we get a grey/blue sticky gooey clay, due to the silt brought down the rivers in the rainy season. I've seen people spend the better part of the morning trying to wash it off the chain - myself included. One yacht lashed two mops together, bristle to bristle to scrub the chain in the water. Looked good, but lots of work, and didn't clean inside the links very well. One trick passed along to me works quite well and is very simple. Have a heavy wooden club on deck. A broken oar works well. Bash the chain ahead of the rollers while it is under tension. Most of the mud will fall off with the first blow. It isn't perfect, but it is quick. I am advised by the developer of this technique it was a result of his frustration with the mud, and in a fit of anger he discovered the solution. If it would only work on the outboard. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1818|1816|2003-06-13 17:52:40|nadim|Re: tips and tricks|On Friday 13 June 2003 20:37, info@... wrote: > One idea I find useful when attaching hoses and there is not enough room > to put on two hose clamps: > > Normally, you should put two hose clamps on any plumbing fittings. I > have never seen a stainless hose clamp that didn't fail eventually http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/article.html?&A=1596 http://plastics.newageindustries.com/oetiker.asp http://plastics.newageindustries.com/kwikclmp.asp http://www.iboats.com/products/7/2951_seachoice_plastic_hose_clamps.html >... I have used is very heavy fishing line. Lash this first around > the hose, using a stick to keep the tension without cutting your hands, > and every few wraps tuck the line under itself to lock the lashing. Any other _dangerous_ way to knot 'heavy fishing line' in your repertory? Good you have a clamp over it. Check Hasley book of knots #364. Cheers, Nadim.| 1819|1765|2003-06-13 19:23:07|Michael Casling|Re: C-Flex|Greg wrote: Hi Mike, I've got no axe to grind with you. If you throw stones why complain if a few bounce back? Lets put that behind us and talk about your design. I am interested in your boat. From your writing it sounds like you have drawn it up and not yet built it. Maybe if we talk about it a bit and review what you have done it will spark an interest in building? Yes? regards, Greg Sounds reasonable. I have not chosen this site to discuss my design ideas because my ideas are some what at odds with the groups basic tenet. I participate with the group because we share an enthusiasm for boating and there are a lot of good ideas here. If there is interest I do not mind sharing my thoughts but I will tell you up front that my ideas are for a lighter displacement boat not built of aluminum or steel. The boat from my design ideas was built about 21 years ago and I assume still sailing in Auckland NZ. Regards BC Mike C Michael Casling [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1820|1765|2003-06-13 19:44:27|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: C-Flex|Hi Mike What was the boat built in? 5 tons 36 feet sounds like racing. Might be possible in an alloy origami - just a guess at this point. Might be interesting to the group to see if it can be done. You could end up expanding the appeal of the process. Any reason the boat wouldn't work in alloy? g. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: C-Flex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1821|1816|2003-06-13 19:57:52|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: tips and tricks|Hi Nadim, You lock the lashing as you go to keep it in tension. In close quarters it is hard to keep 360 degree tension on the lashing. You finish the lashing conventionally. I have never seen any of the parts you have listed in any third world port. It is hard enough to get SS clamps while out cruising. Most of them are plated steel, when you can find them. The old style looped wire with a nut and bolt is still a common hose clamp in many places. The only product you list that I have seen outside of mass production applications is the quik clamp or seachoice clamp. I couldn't see trusting the boat to one of those. Here is what the web site you provided has to say: This product has been discontinued. It is no longer available for purchase. http://www.iboats.com/mall/index.cgi?prod_id=2951 regards Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: nadim To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] tips and tricks On Friday 13 June 2003 20:37, info@... wrote: > One idea I find useful when attaching hoses and there is not enough room > to put on two hose clamps: > > Normally, you should put two hose clamps on any plumbing fittings. I > have never seen a stainless hose clamp that didn't fail eventually http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/article.html?&A=1596 http://plastics.newageindustries.com/oetiker.asp http://plastics.newageindustries.com/kwikclmp.asp http://www.iboats.com/products/7/2951_seachoice_plastic_hose_clamps.html >... I have used is very heavy fishing line. Lash this first around > the hose, using a stick to keep the tension without cutting your hands, > and every few wraps tuck the line under itself to lock the lashing. Any other _dangerous_ way to knot 'heavy fishing line' in your repertory? Good you have a clamp over it. Check Hasley book of knots #364. Cheers, Nadim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1823|1816|2003-06-14 04:30:50|nadim|Re: tips and tricks|Hi Greg, On Saturday 14 June 2003 02:01, info@... wrote: > You lock the lashing as you go to keep it in tension. In close quarters > it is hard to keep 360 degree tension on the lashing. You finish the > lashing conventionally. > Don't even bother to talk yourself out of this. The solution you propose is ridiculous, you backup a lashing with a clamp that you doomed youself to fail sometime. Your locking system is dangerous right through. Lashing a hose is possible and it can be as good as a clamp but the way you do it is wrong. You find it strange to have a non SS screw on clamps without understanding why it is so and then instead of proposing to protect it from corrosion, with grease or silicon or pain or even the wifes nail polish, you just discard them. Your sentence above is non sense: 1/ What in the name of god is is "360° tension"? Can you do 180° tension and miss the other 180°? 2/Knots are 100% right or 200% wrong! If they are done in close quarter where you can't be sure they will have the right tension then don't do it. I'd also recommend to see that no connection neeeds to be done in close quarter, that should be done by design. 3/ "finish the lashing conventionally". Heavy gauge monofilment nylon fishing line is nothing conventional. > I have never seen any of the parts you have listed in any third world > port. It is hard enough to get SS clamps while out cruising. Most of > them are plated steel, when you can find them. The old style looped > wire with a nut and bolt is still a common hose clamp in many places. Lots of bull! I lived several years in south east asia and traveled there extensively (I also own a boat there). You find most things you want inclusive 100% SS clamps and plastic clamps. Any chinese hardware shop will fix it for you, for a price and if you wait till they get it for you. In any case one can build a SS clamp (nothing is impossible you said) or learn to make knots. If one opts for platic clamps, they cost much less than SS clamps, weight almost nothing and can be stored forever, list all your fittings and buy 4 or 5 clamps for each and then an emergency kit with mixed sizes, then go sailing 50 years. An since we are in the tip and tricks section, if possible attach the clamps (those you have for reparation) close to where you will use them instead for having them the tool box. > Here is what the web site you provided has to say: > This product has been discontinued. It is no longer available for > purchase. http://www.iboats.com/mall/index.cgi?prod_id=2951 The web site_S_ I listed where to give example about other clamps that you didn't even bother to discuss as they didn't fit your story. I listed 4 sited, I can list another 20 that would carry the same type clamps. Again your are twisting the conversation to make it look as if your system is right an other don't even exist. Do you want to bet Greg? Send me a piece of hose lashed in the way you described, once I've opened it, I'll send it back to you lashed properly with the right kind of twine and locking and you undo it. Do you want another system that is simpler an more fail proof? - carry a half rigid SS wire - when you need to clamp something, take a piece of it, middle it - put it on the part you want to clamp - twist once - coild each end on its own side - be carefull to coil in oposit direction - take both ends in a plier and twist 4 or 5 times - bend the twisted end on itself to avoid injuring your fingers on it (tape it if necessary) - if you feel the ends are to far from each other, coild them back (doubling the coil) toward the middle. No SS wire available where you are? Galvanized wire will do or even steel wire, be sure to protect them (the galved one too) properly from corrosion and it will hold very long. Cheers, Nadim. | 1824|1761|2003-06-14 07:53:15|sae140|Re: Electrolysis|So Greg - more bluff and bluster. You have ignored my last post completely, merely using it as a platform from which to deliver yet another long-winded lecture to the group. > The question of whether metal yachts need to be protected is not an issue that I will debate. To me there is no question on this issue -- to promote unprotected metal yachts is at best uninformed, at worst a menace to public safety. But who is debating ? And who is promoting ? No-one that I'm aware of. This tirade is of your own making. I have been waiting for you to bring the classic safety issue into your discourse. This is a technique well-favoured by politicians when introducing repressive legislation, as any other viewpoints or opinions then become automatically polarised into the 'unsafe' (= 'irresponsible') camp. > I believe this group would be better served by discussing the causes of electrolysis and how to protect against them. But are you sure you know what is generally meant by "discussing" Greg ? You appear to have adopted the role of group 'expert', whose knowledge and opinions are far superior to those of anyone else. You have both a hectoring style of communication [for those who do not have English as a mother-tongue, Hector (sometimes spelt with a 'k') was a Trojan hero from Greek mythology who was an annoying bully and blusterer], and appear to feel the need to dominate almost *every* post, as if this were your own personal website. This is not my interpretation of what is generally meant by group "discussion". These comments are not intended as a form of personal unpleasantness, but rather as a caution that your domineering style of communication may well be inhibiting others from posting onto this site. As you are fairly new to this group, there may be something that you haven't fully appreciated yet. Although this group's focus is primarily on the origami technique of building boat hulls, for many members I believe there is a deeper philosophy involved. Again, I shall make this distinction in terms of 'content' and 'process'. The 'content' here being one of a faster method for the construction of a boat hull. The 'process' however, being one of challenging perceived wisdom and conventional practice, and retaining a healthy scepticism of so-called authoratitive sources such as those to which you refer. Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding lies. My apologises to anyone who has become bored rigid by this exchange, to whom I promise that this will be my last post on this particular thread. Regards Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Colin, > > The motion of a metal boat thru the water, or tidal currents moving past a metal boat at a mooring will induce electricity in the hull. Without protection, this will lead to electrolysis, with the damage most pronounced at the ends. The rudder, being close to one end on most boats is very susceptible to this damage, and is at risk to fail catastrophically on an unprotected metal boat that sails long enough. This failure is more likely to occur when the boat is offshore in high seas or storm conditions. The loss of steering at this time may lead to motion in the yacht beyond its stability limits and result in the yacht being overwhelmed. If the yacht survives, the crew has the uncertain prospect of rigging a temporary rudder, or being rescued and scuttling the abandoned yacht to remove a hazard to navigation. > > The pragmatic sailor realizes that anodes provide a lost cost, simple and effective solution to protect against electrolysis. Any metal yacht that has been left unprotected must be viewed with the utmost suspicion for offshore use. There are many causes of electrolysis and aspects to protection beyond anodes, and I urge anyone building, owning, buying or sailing a metal boat to consult an authoritative reference for better information. Do not take my word on this subject. > > The question of whether metal yachts need to be protected is not an issue that I will debate. To me there is no question on this issue -- to promote unprotected metal yachts is at best uninformed, at worst a menace to public safety. I believe this group would be better served by discussing the causes of electrolysis and how to protect against them. > > regards, greg. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sae140 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 1:45 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis > > > > Greg. > > Re: The email I quoted. > As you well know, you are of course correct regarding the thread > itself. However - please show me any reference within the thread you > quote to an author promoting the idea of metal boats without anodes. > > This is very clearly a back-reference to an earlier post I made > regarding 2 individuals who have successfully lived without anodes > for decades. Unlike yourself, I am neither promoting nor rubbishing > this idea. > > Greg, yet again (1,2) you are twisting facts in order to "make > points" or win the ensuing arguments which in turn arise only because > of your initial dogmatic approach. Which is a pity, for you're > clearly a person with much first-hand experience which I believe is > of interest to many. > > Incidently, when I wrote "extraordinary departure from truth" I was > trying to politely point out that by twisting facts, yet another of > your posts lacks integrity. And I say "politely", for I have no wish > to start a flame war ... > > It is not so much the points you make (content), so much as the way > you make them (process), which I am criticising. > > Regards > > Colin > > > > (1) > From the GVRD: The average person in the Greater Vancouver > Regional District uses approximately 340 liters of water per day > around the home." > > This would be 44,000 lbs of water for a couple on a trip from > Vancouver to Hawaii, with very little reserve. > > C'mon Greg ... this is a blatantly dishonest use of statistics, and > using such figures doesn't add *anything* to your argument, for "... > around the home" means just that: flush toilets, baths, washing > machines, hosepipes, lawn-sprinklers, washing the car etc. - none of > which exist on the sort of boats you're describing. > > > (2) " To anyone considering doing their own designs in with paper and > scissors, my advice is simply this. Don't use the results to build a > boat. We built thousands of paper models before we computerized and > they all had the same problem. A boat that folds fair in paper at > 1/24 can look terrible full sized in metal." > > But you're selecting a size which suits your argument, which is in > turn based largely on the size used ..... Circularity. A common but > discredited rhetorical device. > Build your model at 1/12 instead, enlarge any doubtful areas using a > photocopier in order to take measurements, and it's a different story. > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hey Colin! > > > > The email you quoted was written in reply to Ted in reference to > Nigel Calder's excellent book. > > > > My point was simple. Rely more on authoritative works like > Calder's and similar to make decisions. Author's that write popular > sailing books are not always the best source of information and they > should not be regarded as gospel. > > > > Not every day my writing gets called extraordinary! > > > > regards, Greg > > > > ps: > > > > I don't think I referenced anything you have written. I don't > recall mentioning Nick Skeates or Tom Colvin. I wouldn't claim > authors were promoting extreme positions to sell books. Rather, that > they have a conflict of interests in doing so. Like newspapers, we > hear a certain type of story not so much because the writers promote > it, but because we buy it. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: sae140 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:02 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Electrolysis > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > To me, author's that promote metal boats without anodes are > similar > > to author's that promote boats without engines. If you are > skillful, > > have the right boat, and keep it in the right location, with some > > luck you might be able to succeed. > > > > > > However, for the average owner, anodes and engines are > important > > safety devices. > > > > > > Controversy generates publicity, which sells books. These > authors > > have a conflict of interests in promoting extreme positions. The > > problem is that as they gain popularity their readers can be led > into > > danger. > > > > > > What an extraordinary departure from truth ! Neither of the > people I > > mentioned in a recent post 'promote' an anode-free philosophy. > One - > > Nick Skeates - doesn't even write books (!) The other - Tom > Colvin - > > simply mentions his own anode-free approach in passing - one > single > > line of text within 450 pages - which hardly represents a > promotion > > of an extreme position in order to sell a book, as you claim. > > > > > > Colin. > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1825|1825|2003-06-14 19:27:45|Alex Christie|moderation time again...|Hey folks, As moderator, I think it might be a good idea to lay out a few ground rules here in order to keep the peace. As this is a shared space, please address your posts to the group, because each message goes to all of us. Pointed remarks to a single person mean very little to group as a whole, and only start flame wars. If you want to address someone specifically about something, e- mail them off-list where it won't clog up our inbox. Remember that this forum is about the boats, not a gladiator's arena! On a board like this finger-pointing and shredding of other's opinions is verboten/interdit/forbidden, for obvious reasons. Line-by-line analysis and picking apart of what someone has said in their previous post is also not very effective. The cut and pasted pieces of text are no longer in context of their original message, so it makes little or no sense. It also tends to make the person doing this like a harsh school teacher with the red pen correcting a student's work, then showing it to the class. This does not promote group peace. Sometimes only the author themselves can decode who said what, and in one post someone mistook what a person was saying because they had a shred of someone else's post at the bottom of their e-mail! I personally don't read snipped, clipped and pasted messages; they make my head hurt! Lastly, please refrain from cussing (swearing), as well as even mildly "hot" or inflamatory remarks. It does no good and departs from the friendly spirit of sharing of different ideas that this group is known for. I have not had to put anyone's postings on the pending/approval system, but I will do so for anyone who appears to ignore my plea for calm and gentlemanly discourse...got it? Peace be upon you, Alex Christie (moderator)| 1826|1826|2003-06-15 04:18:50|Glen|Silence ?|And now silence falls on the oragami web site. I believe that everyone who joined this site did so because they had ideas they wanted to share or find out more information about the ones they didn't. I enjoy all the posts and topics, discussion is good. Whether it be right or wrong for you is up to you to decide! Keeping in mind that there are many ways to get from point A - B. One idea that works for me you may not like and think that it is the dumbest idea you ever heard of....if we all thought alike what a boring world this would be!!! I think that attacking of ideas is not healthy to the web site nor to the person who posts the idea. Think of how you would feel being new to the site and reading some of the recent posts....would you want to ask your question if you were unsure ?! I have always understood and felt that the boating community always was a little closer than any other group of people, always willing to help a fellow boater in need...somehow that feeling is lost when logging on to the site. I agree with Alex that our posts need to be straight forward and to the point in simple english! Everyone of us in this group are at different levels of experience in regards to building a boat right down to time on the water. We should be sharing ideas and helping one another. My two cents worth! Glen| 1827|1827|2003-06-15 04:55:45|jim_both|Mast-aft Sail rig|I found a website the describes a sailing rig for monohull(twin- keeler?): http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/ This is a very different rig and I was wondering anybody had any thought about this, have these ideas been discredited or verified? Also, a website that describes what look like Origami boatbuilding in Aluminium: http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm| 1828|1825|2003-06-15 12:45:25|Gord Schnell|Re: moderation time again...|Thank you, Alex. It is getting very tiresome. Gord Alex Christie wrote: > > Hey folks, > > As moderator, I think it might be a good idea to lay out a > few ground > rules here in order to keep the peace. > > As this is a shared space, please address your posts to > the group, > because each message goes to all of us. Pointed remarks to > a single > person mean very little to group as a whole, and only > start flame > wars. If you want to address someone specifically about > something, e- > mail them off-list where it won't clog up our inbox. > Remember that > this forum is about the boats, not a gladiator's arena! On > a board > like this finger-pointing and shredding of other's > opinions is > verboten/interdit/forbidden, for obvious reasons. > > Line-by-line analysis and picking apart of what someone > has said in > their previous post is also not very effective. The cut > and pasted > pieces of text are no longer in context of their original > message, so > it makes little or no sense. It also tends to make the > person doing > this like a harsh school teacher with the red pen > correcting a > student's work, then showing it to the class. This does > not promote > group peace. Sometimes only the author themselves can > decode who > said what, and in one post someone mistook what a person > was saying > because they had a shred of someone else's post at the > bottom of > their e-mail! I personally don't read snipped, clipped > and pasted > messages; they make my head hurt! > > Lastly, please refrain from cussing (swearing), as well as > even > mildly "hot" or inflamatory remarks. It does no good and > departs > from the friendly spirit of sharing of different ideas > that this > group is known for. > > I have not had to put anyone's postings on the > pending/approval > system, but I will do so for anyone who appears to ignore > my plea for > calm and gentlemanly discourse...got it? > > Peace be upon you, > > Alex Christie > > (moderator) > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1829|1827|2003-06-15 13:58:40|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Mast-aft Sail rig|The mast aft, raked forward configuration can make it easier to tack the headsails, allow for larger headsails, and allow for a smaller or no main to be carried. However, having the mast raked forward tensions the backstays while slacking the headstay. Due to the increased mechanical advantage, the closer the mast is placed to one end of the boat, the tighter the stays on that end, the slacker the stays on the other end. You can demonstrate this effect with the washtub bass musical instrument. The closer the stick is placed to the string, the less force you need to apply to the head of the stick to reach the high notes. It is generally thought that tightening the headstays improves windward performance. As a result, raking the mast aft has been more popular. On older wooden designs this was often quite pronounced. As modern gear has made tightening the stays simpler, and hull strength has increased to take the loads, masts have tended to be more vertical. I don't have a reference in front of me. As I recall 3-5 degrees aft rake is now typical, more for appearance than anything. My personal opinion is this: Inshore day-sailing on a reach and a good breeze, we often skip the main, which I believe the mast aft configuration recognizes. For offshore work I find a mainsail and boom is very necessary. Lots of times we use the main, sheeted tight, reefed flat to control the roll on the vessel, while the headsail drives us downwind. Generally for offshore, to control the motion of the boat, the main is first sail I put up, and the last sail I take down. Upwind, the main has two important functions over and above the obvious sail area. It increased the drive of the boat by trimming the headsail(s), and can significantly reduce the drag of the mast. A bare pole is not an efficient foil, and adds more drag than a pole with main. Thus, motoring upwind with the main up can significantly increase your speed, even though the main is amidships and provides little or no drive. I would expect the rig in question to be good for shorthanded work, and would be suitable for coastal cruising. There could be some loss of performance upwind. While cruising we always try to sail off the wind. However, the wind somehow always knows this and regularly changes to thwart our plans. As a result, even cruising boats should try to make sure they have good upwind performance. There would - perhaps - be less options available to control the motion of the vessel in question if conditions got severe. This last point would depend on the sail inventory and the crew. Controlling the motion of a vessel offshore is one of the most important factors in keeping yourself out of trouble. Every vessel has a limit beyond which you will find yourself with serious problems. As conditions worsen, it becomes increasingly difficult to keep the vessel within this range of motion. There are lots of different ways to accomplish this, and everyone has a favorite that works for them. For me, in extreme conditions, a sail on a stay can start vibrating to the point where I have been concerned for the rig. I find that a reefed main does not do this. I always leave a small reefed main up, even hove to, and as conditions worsen the vessel heels, exposing the hull to the breaking seas rather than the cabin. Obviously if the sail threatens the rig you have to act, but otherwise I would leave a small sail up at all times. Unless there was a threat to the vessel, I would leave the reefed main to shred before I would risk working on the deck to take it down. We were in radio contact with a vessel that passed through a hurricane off Mexico, and they were debating taking down the reefed main. The fear in their voices was plainly evident, and they were panicking, thinking they needed to do something. The vessel was riding as well as could be expected under the conditions, hove to, and they were dry inside. Uncomfortable and in fear for their lives to be sure, on their first trip offshore. Our recommendation (solicited) was to make no changes so long as the vessel was not in danger. Why risk going on deck and being injured or swept away because of worry about the sail. Also, dropping the sail might have changed the motion of the boat to the point where they were at risk. Sometimes the only thing left to do is pack the quarter berth with pillows and get some sleep. We heard later the vessel survived and had even made the papers. The previous was not meant to be used as anything more than a guide. You need to test your vessel and yourself in increasingly more difficult conditions, learn what works best for you, and apply this experience when sailing offshore. Get out in a winter storm and practice, practice, practice in the relative safely of your local waters before you go offshore. Heave to, try a drogue, rig warps. Sail with only a headsail, sail with only a main. Race your boat, no matter how slow. On handicap you may do very well, and you will learn a lot about your boat and your skills thru competition. Find out what works for you. For offshore my preference would be a cutter rig with both headsails on furlers. In areas of extreme weather I might go with hanked sails rather than furlers. The main in lazy jacks and reefing lines led aft can help eliminate deck work in heavy weather. I have seen a number boats that incorporate the main sail bag in the lazy jacks which appears to work quite well. The lazy jacks keep the bag in place when sailing. Drop the main, the lazy jacks gather the sail, close the bag, and you are done. Extreme rigs and extreme designs I would leave for coastal work, simply because they have not been sufficiently proven. Traveling with a wife and family I am not willing to take the same risks as I would on my own. However, every new design needs a champion. Progress cannot be made without risk, and yachting by nature is a calculated risk. If a rig interests you, it is worthy of examination. As always, this is a personal preference. There are lots of different rigs, and they all have advantages and disadvantages. If it was otherwise, we would all be sailing the same boat. Except for fundamental safety issues there are a wide range of choices available to yacht designers and builders, allowing the yacht to be personalized to suit the owner. Hope this helps, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: jim_both To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 1:55 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Mast-aft Sail rig I found a website the describes a sailing rig for monohull(twin- keeler?): http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/ This is a very different rig and I was wondering anybody had any thought about this, have these ideas been discredited or verified? Also, a website that describes what look like Origami boatbuilding in Aluminium: http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1830|1830|2003-06-15 16:46:26|info@easysoftwareinc.com|metal boats and HF radio|A great advantage of a metal hulled boat is the ease with which one can rig and install a very effective HF radio. I would be happy to discuss the details with anyone interested in installing HF capability on their boat. Note: the next section contains information that may not comply with your local laws and regulations. It is your responsibility to check with your local authorities before operating a radio. I DO NOT condone illegal radio operation. HF radios are not expensive. HAM radio's can be converted to all-band HF for offshore work, with just a few minutes work. Many radio suppliers will do it for free if the radio is for an offshore yacht. This can be a very practical alternative to an expensive (and often very limited) marine SSB. Most of the cursing boats we know have converted HAM radios in place of marine SSB. What about a license? In an emergency it is perfectly legal to operate without a license. The marine radio license (VHF/SSB ) you can get for a small fee from the government and is probably a good idea because some countries have taken to prosecuting sailors when they return home for operating outside the country without one. $25,000+ so be forewarned. It is sometimes the cruiser that you got into an argument with that turns you in. For most offshore cruising yachts, the amateur license (HAM) is the one you should have. The amateur bands are widely used by cruising sailors, to keep in daily contact with fellow cruisers and to receive weather, health, and safety traffic. You can make telephone calls of a non-commercial nature with the cooperation of a shore amateur and a phone patch. However, it is hard to arrange, and distortion makes it hard for non-radio people to understand you.. The big step up these days for yachts is email. With the installation of a computer and modem, email is available worldwide to the cruising sailor via Pactor. We use email onboard the boat now almost exclusively to keep in contact with folks back home. Non-commercial traffic is free via Winlink and business traffic can be passed for a small fee via Sailmail and similar services. For those people without email, you can fax them via the Internet using email from the boat. Also, with the recent changes to the US regulations, a US license is open to anyone, and is not at all difficult to pass. For those not willing to go that far, there are countries in the world that do not report licenses, so call signs like HP___ are common pirate calls. Everyone knows the story that you got your license going through the Panama Canal is false, but cannot be checked. I recommend you take the test before going cruising. The old regulations were extremely difficult. One of the best known radio networks in SE Asia was run for years on a pirate license. Every year the pirate operator held a US license exam school at his house, and many of us got our licenses there, and every year he failed. It wasn't like he wasn't trying - and it did make for a great party. However, with the new regulations, we were all very pleased to hear that an era has come to an end. He has his license and the net has became legal. If he can did it, so can you. I consider the HF radio a "must have" safety device for offshore yachts. Two boats we sailed with were lost without a word, and remain a mystery to this day. They did not have HF radios, and at least for the peace of mind of loved ones ashore it would be a comfort to have some idea what happened to them. It was months before anyone realized they were missing. Normally we have a daily radio sched at sea, so people know very quickly if something is wrong and help might be required. Yachts have been saved, crews rescued, and even a murder/piracy solved as a result of HAM radio. HF radio is not expensive or complicated and the license is now easy to obtain. You can easily rig a very effective radio in a metal boat, and you will have a very important safety device and a great way to keep in contact with friends and family. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1831|1831|2003-06-15 18:14:20|Stephen Wandling|Generators & Welders|I am getting my stalled steel boat project back in motion, but have hit a bump. My current site, where I have my boat in a shed, had a yard welder in a nearby shed as part of my rental. I have just been informed that due to conflicts between the businesses there, there is now no power to the welder and it looks like none can be arranged. I have a steel boat builder coming to work on the boat at the end of June. I also own an AC buzzbox, and was wondering if anyone had any advice about the size of generator that is recommended to run this welder. I generally understand that you need a source of 220 V. and 50 Amps. I guess another option might be to rent an engine driven welder. Has anyone had experience with one of these in the Vancouver Lower Mainland? My boat is in Richmond right now. So, if any of you have any advice or maybe even have a welder or generator that I could rent, I would be eager to hear about it. I estimate that the welding could be completed in 2 to 3 weeks. Stephen| 1832|1832|2003-06-15 18:22:58|Glen|HF Radios|I am guessing that by HF you mean High Frequency ( may be I missed that part ) could the HF and SSB talk to each other or are they too far apart? What is the most common out there? I know most people have a CB radio set to cannel 16 and a VHF. So would we talking about now having three radios....CB, VHF, and SSB or HF? HHHHmmmmmm which to choose from.....HELP! O.K. I'm interested how does one make a HAM radio an HF radio....and take it slow it's fathers day and I'm trying not to think to much! Happy Fathers Day to all the fathers Glen| 1833|1833|2003-06-15 18:23:55|islands502000|checking in|It has been a while since I have posted a line of thought. As I have been reading, I felt it time to jump back in. We are all boat lovers, and builders, some in the process, some not, but the point is we are shareing Ideas. As a former Steel boat owner, of much larger dimetions then any proposed on this site. I can tell you maintance is the key to longivity, along with good building pratices. No vessel can stand the test of time and ocean, without a good design.I belive that Bret has a good design theroy, simple to build. And if fitted out to suit you personal needs will last a long time. And anyone considering a steel, or alloy hull should do their homework, and understand the strenths, weaknes, of the material of choise. Along whith these thought I shall shut my mouth, sit back and read. Good boating to all Islands " I think too much"| 1834|1831|2003-06-15 18:32:25|islands502000|Re: Generators & Welders|Steven, You might consider a engine driven welder/ geneator combo, your BuzzBox would require at least a 10kw gen set, the coast of a used one is almost the cost of renting, or at least here in my area of the sothern left coast. I do see very offten ad's for older Lincon 250 amp welders for less then $1,000, with leads and attecments, and some of the newer units also, either are good machines, that can do ac/dc welding, + or - in either mood, you professinal welder can best advise you on what he likes to use, personaly I like a DC - machine. also knowen as reversed polarity. Islands " I think too much " -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Wandling wrote: > I am getting my stalled steel boat project back in motion, but have hit > a bump. My current site, where I have my boat in a shed, had a yard > welder in a nearby shed as part of my rental. I have just been informed > that due to conflicts between the businesses there, there is now no > power to the welder and it looks like none can be arranged. > > I have a steel boat builder coming to work on the boat at the end of > June. I also own an AC buzzbox, and was wondering if anyone had any > advice about the size of generator that is recommended to run this > welder. I generally understand that you need a source of 220 V. and 50 > Amps. > > I guess another option might be to rent an engine driven welder. Has > anyone had experience with one of these in the Vancouver Lower > Mainland? My boat is in Richmond right now. > > So, if any of you have any advice or maybe even have a welder or > generator that I could rent, I would be eager to hear about it. I > estimate that the welding could be completed in 2 to 3 weeks. > > Stephen | 1835|1830|2003-06-15 18:58:07|edmdgd|Re: metal boats and HF radio|Greg, Thanks for your recent discussion on the suitability of HF radio for offshore communications. I am contemplating the purchase of a steel sail boat. My previous experiences have all been fiberglass boats and all had HF radio aboard. The installations of the radios were all accomplished by myself. Installation of the ground plain was made with copper foil tape run on the centerline from bow to stern and then to the antenna tuner. The foil tape was fiberglassed over. This system worked fine for my fiberglass vessels, my question is regarding an effective ground plain for a steel boat. What is the best way to accomplish this. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A great advantage of a metal hulled boat is the ease with which one can rig and install a very effective HF radio. I would be happy to discuss the details with anyone interested in installing HF capability on their boat. > > Note: the next section contains information that may not comply with your local laws and regulations. It is your responsibility to check with your local authorities before operating a radio. I DO NOT condone illegal radio operation. > > HF radios are not expensive. HAM radio's can be converted to all- band HF for offshore work, with just a few minutes work. Many radio suppliers will do it for free if the radio is for an offshore yacht. This can be a very practical alternative to an expensive (and often very limited) marine SSB. Most of the cursing boats we know have converted HAM radios in place of marine SSB. > > What about a license? In an emergency it is perfectly legal to operate without a license. > > The marine radio license (VHF/SSB ) you can get for a small fee from the government and is probably a good idea because some countries have taken to prosecuting sailors when they return home for operating outside the country without one. $25,000+ so be forewarned. It is sometimes the cruiser that you got into an argument with that turns you in. > > For most offshore cruising yachts, the amateur license (HAM) is the one you should have. The amateur bands are widely used by cruising sailors, to keep in daily contact with fellow cruisers and to receive weather, health, and safety traffic. You can make telephone calls of a non-commercial nature with the cooperation of a shore amateur and a phone patch. However, it is hard to arrange, and distortion makes it hard for non-radio people to understand you.. > > The big step up these days for yachts is email. With the installation of a computer and modem, email is available worldwide to the cruising sailor via Pactor. We use email onboard the boat now almost exclusively to keep in contact with folks back home. Non- commercial traffic is free via Winlink and business traffic can be passed for a small fee via Sailmail and similar services. For those people without email, you can fax them via the Internet using email from the boat. > > Also, with the recent changes to the US regulations, a US license is open to anyone, and is not at all difficult to pass. For those not willing to go that far, there are countries in the world that do not report licenses, so call signs like HP___ are common pirate calls. Everyone knows the story that you got your license going through the Panama Canal is false, but cannot be checked. > > I recommend you take the test before going cruising. The old regulations were extremely difficult. One of the best known radio networks in SE Asia was run for years on a pirate license. Every year the pirate operator held a US license exam school at his house, and many of us got our licenses there, and every year he failed. It wasn't like he wasn't trying - and it did make for a great party. However, with the new regulations, we were all very pleased to hear that an era has come to an end. He has his license and the net has became legal. If he can did it, so can you. > > I consider the HF radio a "must have" safety device for offshore yachts. Two boats we sailed with were lost without a word, and remain a mystery to this day. They did not have HF radios, and at least for the peace of mind of loved ones ashore it would be a comfort to have some idea what happened to them. It was months before anyone realized they were missing. Normally we have a daily radio sched at sea, so people know very quickly if something is wrong and help might be required. Yachts have been saved, crews rescued, and even a murder/piracy solved as a result of HAM radio. > > HF radio is not expensive or complicated and the license is now easy to obtain. You can easily rig a very effective radio in a metal boat, and you will have a very important safety device and a great way to keep in contact with friends and family. > > Greg Elliott > Easy Software Inc. > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: (604) 987-0050 > fax:(253) 550-6928 > email: greg@e... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1837|1832|2003-06-15 20:02:49|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: HF Radios|Hi Glen, My apologies for the jargon. I am going to simplify the information I provide here - so please realize this is not gospel. radio frequency (MHz) .5 - 1.5 AM broadcast radio 1.5 - 25 HAM, marine SSB, shortwave - (HF) 25 - 50 HAM, CB 50 - 80 TV 80 - 110 FM broadcast radio 110+ marine FM (VHF) UHF TV Think of your AM radio. 1000 on the AM dial is around the middle of the dial. That is 1.0 on the above scale. Think of your FM radio. 100 on the FM dial is around the middle of the dial. That is 100 on the above scale. In general, the higher the frequency, the better sound you can get, but the shorter distance the signal will travel. So, an FM broadcast radio has better sound than the AM radio, but at night you might hear WXYZ Texas on the AM radio, but you will never hear texas on the FM radio. VHF is what most people call a marine FM radio, because it operates in the Very High Frequency range. The basic operation is similar to your FM broadcast radio, except the frequency is slightly higher. VHF marine radios are line of sight - you can only talk if the antenna on your radio can physically see the antenna on the radio you are talking to. Because of the curvature of the earth, this limits VHF marine communications to less than 30 miles under normal conditions (placing shore stations on mountains increases the range), and for practical purposes 10 miles is more typical. HF is short for High Frequency, and it includes HAM, marine SSB, and Shortwave. The amazing thing about HF radio is that is not line of sight. The earths atmosphere, combined with the effects of the sun, reflects HF radio waves back to the earth, like a fantastically large mirror. As a result, a very low powered HF radio transmission can travel around the world depending on the frequency, time of day, and solar activity. For yachts this is wonderful news, because it means you can install a low power radio on your boat, and by selecting the correct frequency for the time of day you can contact just about any place on earth. It isn't quite as easy or as wonderful as I have just said, but that is the theory, and many times it will work. For practical purposes, a cruising yacht will have a 100 watt HAM - 20 amps. With this radio in the morning you can probably talk reliably to all the boats within 500 miles. With this radio in the afternoon you can no longer hear the boats within 500 miles, but you will be able to talk to HAM operators as far away as 5000 miles. In the evening you will hear both the boats within 500 miles, and as far away as 5000 miles. You will often be able talk to HAM operators as far as 10,000 miles away. These are generalizations, so please you hammies out there don't jump on me, just post the corrections. Also, there are gaps in the distances, at different times of day, so that is why HAM form networks. You might be able to hear A, but not B. B can hear A, but not you. So traffic is passed by relaying messages across the net to fill in the gaps. With a dozen people on the net you can quite quickly fill in an area as big as 1/8-1/4 the globe. So you can see the benefits of networks, which is why they are popular with HAMs. The problem with CB is that it is at the top of the effective HF range. Sometimes it can go a long ways, but not reliably. The problem with AM broadcast is that it is at the bottom of the range. Sometimes it can go a long ways, but not reliably. The best frequencies for long distance communication are in the range of 6-20Mhz (millions of cycles per second). The beauty of a HAM radio, is that because the HAM bands overlap shortwave, marine SSB, and CB, your HAM radio with a slight change will work as a shortwave radio, a marine SSB, and a very high powered CB radio. One radio replaces 3 radios. Your Marine VHF radio is the exception. This radio is in a different frequency range than HF, and channel 16 is the standard "guard" or listening channel for offshore. If a freighter is on your course, call him on channel 16 on the VHF. Also, your hand held ship-shore radio is the same VHF radio. They are handy for the crew ashore, to call in if they are late, or to get a ride out in the dinghy. The hand-helds are usually good for about 3-5 miles. There are guard and emergency channels on HF as well. These are disaster reporting type channels - MAYDAY channels and for obvious reasons you should learn these channels and the procedures. They are intended to call for help over a much wider area than your VHF radio. If you call MAYDAY on your VHF radio, the best you can hope for is to reach someone within 30 miles. If you call MAYDAY on your CB radio the best you can hope for is to reach someone within 100 miles, but usually a lot less. If you call MAYDAY on your HF radio, you may be hear around the world. Typically the range will be closer to 1000-5000 miles, but still a big improvement. What is SSB? Single Side Band. SSB is a modified form of AM, that boosts the power of the transmission by increasing the "information" part of the signal, while reducing the "carrier" part of the signal. If you have every heard a radio where everyone sounds like Donald Duck, you have heard SSB. It takes a few minutes for your ears to adjust, but afterwards everyone sounds normal. Are HAM radios SSB? Most types of radio transmission were first invented by amateur operators (HAMs). They were later adapted to commercial use. HAM radios can act like most other radios because the HAMs did it first. SSB is available on HAM radios as both USB and LSB, while commercial SSB radios typically only provide USB. (Upper Side Band, Lower Side band). You can hear and talk to any SSB radio on a HAM rig. They can only hear and talk to you if you choose. In the preceding I am talking about a HAM rig that has been modified for offshore use. A standard HAM rig is by regulation crippled so that it will only broadcast in the amateur bands. This is simply a regulation. It is not a limitation of the radio itself. Hope this helps. Think seriously about becoming a HAM radio operator if you are going offshore. It will be one of the best investments you can make. You will get to know tons of other yachts long before you ever meet them. Most people have no idea of what a HAM radio can do, except HAMs were normally the guy with glasses at the end of the street, and every time he turned the rig on the TV went wild. Regards, Greg From: Glen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] HF Radios I am guessing that by HF you mean High Frequency ( may be I missed that part ) could the HF and SSB talk to each other or are they too far apart? What is the most common out there? I know most people have a CB radio set to cannel 16 and a VHF. So would we talking about now having three radios....CB, VHF, and SSB or HF? HHHHmmmmmm which to choose from.....HELP! O.K. I'm interested how does one make a HAM radio an HF radio....and take it slow it's fathers day and I'm trying not to think to much! Happy Fathers Day to all the fathers Glen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1838|1830|2003-06-15 20:26:27|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: metal boats and HF radio|The beauty of a steel vessel is that the boat itself is the ground. Repeat exactly what you did with the FG yacht, but run the ground for the tuner to the closest reliable grounding point on the hull. The shorter the better. There is no need to run copper in the hull. A wide ground strip is better than a wire at HF frequencies, but I've seen wire used if it is short enough, You can use any reasonable conductor if copper makes you nervous. There is nothing magic about copper, except it is a good conductor, and resists corrosion. I do recommend antenna switches to disconnect the rig in a storm. Also, check your rig before installation for continuity between the power ground and the antenna ground. Most VHF radios do not have continuity, but many HAM rigs do. I have not checked marine SSB's. The reason I mention this is because if there is continuity, then your power ground is connected to the hull via the antenna ground, and you have a possible path for electrolysis. If you can find a HF rig that does not have this problem, or can be modified, it would be my recommended choice. Heavy, short power leads to the radio and you should be right. regards, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: edmdgd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: metal boats and HF radio Greg, Thanks for your recent discussion on the suitability of HF radio for offshore communications. I am contemplating the purchase of a steel sail boat. My previous experiences have all been fiberglass boats and all had HF radio aboard. The installations of the radios were all accomplished by myself. Installation of the ground plain was made with copper foil tape run on the centerline from bow to stern and then to the antenna tuner. The foil tape was fiberglassed over. This system worked fine for my fiberglass vessels, my question is regarding an effective ground plain for a steel boat. What is the best way to accomplish this. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A great advantage of a metal hulled boat is the ease with which one can rig and install a very effective HF radio. I would be happy to discuss the details with anyone interested in installing HF capability on their boat. > > Note: the next section contains information that may not comply with your local laws and regulations. It is your responsibility to check with your local authorities before operating a radio. I DO NOT condone illegal radio operation. > > HF radios are not expensive. HAM radio's can be converted to all- band HF for offshore work, with just a few minutes work. Many radio suppliers will do it for free if the radio is for an offshore yacht. This can be a very practical alternative to an expensive (and often very limited) marine SSB. Most of the cursing boats we know have converted HAM radios in place of marine SSB. > > What about a license? In an emergency it is perfectly legal to operate without a license. > > The marine radio license (VHF/SSB ) you can get for a small fee from the government and is probably a good idea because some countries have taken to prosecuting sailors when they return home for operating outside the country without one. $25,000+ so be forewarned. It is sometimes the cruiser that you got into an argument with that turns you in. > > For most offshore cruising yachts, the amateur license (HAM) is the one you should have. The amateur bands are widely used by cruising sailors, to keep in daily contact with fellow cruisers and to receive weather, health, and safety traffic. You can make telephone calls of a non-commercial nature with the cooperation of a shore amateur and a phone patch. However, it is hard to arrange, and distortion makes it hard for non-radio people to understand you.. > > The big step up these days for yachts is email. With the installation of a computer and modem, email is available worldwide to the cruising sailor via Pactor. We use email onboard the boat now almost exclusively to keep in contact with folks back home. Non- commercial traffic is free via Winlink and business traffic can be passed for a small fee via Sailmail and similar services. For those people without email, you can fax them via the Internet using email from the boat. > > Also, with the recent changes to the US regulations, a US license is open to anyone, and is not at all difficult to pass. For those not willing to go that far, there are countries in the world that do not report licenses, so call signs like HP___ are common pirate calls. Everyone knows the story that you got your license going through the Panama Canal is false, but cannot be checked. > > I recommend you take the test before going cruising. The old regulations were extremely difficult. One of the best known radio networks in SE Asia was run for years on a pirate license. Every year the pirate operator held a US license exam school at his house, and many of us got our licenses there, and every year he failed. It wasn't like he wasn't trying - and it did make for a great party. However, with the new regulations, we were all very pleased to hear that an era has come to an end. He has his license and the net has became legal. If he can did it, so can you. > > I consider the HF radio a "must have" safety device for offshore yachts. Two boats we sailed with were lost without a word, and remain a mystery to this day. They did not have HF radios, and at least for the peace of mind of loved ones ashore it would be a comfort to have some idea what happened to them. It was months before anyone realized they were missing. Normally we have a daily radio sched at sea, so people know very quickly if something is wrong and help might be required. Yachts have been saved, crews rescued, and even a murder/piracy solved as a result of HAM radio. > > HF radio is not expensive or complicated and the license is now easy to obtain. You can easily rig a very effective radio in a metal boat, and you will have a very important safety device and a great way to keep in contact with friends and family. > > Greg Elliott > Easy Software Inc. > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: (604) 987-0050 > fax:(253) 550-6928 > email: greg@e... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1839|1831|2003-06-16 09:50:16|Keith Green|Re: Generators & Welders|I live in Surrey. I don't think that welder will be much good to your boatbuilder. Those little buzz boxes are really only good for small stuff. There are only a few rods on the market which work on an AC-only machine, as well. The larger gen-set type welders you can rent (come on their own trailer) are really good. I used one a few years back for a coule of days. Really smooth arc and easy to use. Lots of rental places around so I would check out some prices over the phone before getting one. Most welding rods are designed for use with DC power only. keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Wandling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:14 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Generators & Welders I am getting my stalled steel boat project back in motion, but have hit a bump. My current site, where I have my boat in a shed, had a yard welder in a nearby shed as part of my rental. I have just been informed that due to conflicts between the businesses there, there is now no power to the welder and it looks like none can be arranged. I have a steel boat builder coming to work on the boat at the end of June. I also own an AC buzzbox, and was wondering if anyone had any advice about the size of generator that is recommended to run this welder. I generally understand that you need a source of 220 V. and 50 Amps. I guess another option might be to rent an engine driven welder. Has anyone had experience with one of these in the Vancouver Lower Mainland? My boat is in Richmond right now. So, if any of you have any advice or maybe even have a welder or generator that I could rent, I would be eager to hear about it. I estimate that the welding could be completed in 2 to 3 weeks. Stephen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1840|1826|2003-06-16 15:36:02|nadim|Re: Silence ?|Hi Glen and other, Silence? Please no. Sure there have been disagreement on the list lately, I do make waves sometimes, Greg has been doind waves (not bad for a new comer), all the active members will eventualy do it. I find it very healthy to not hide behind some pseudo civilized political correctness. I find it normal to attack ideas, try to prove them wrong, not as a sport but when something feels wrong I can't keep silent. When I propose an idea, I don't want sympathy only. I expect some fellow members to twist it, bend it, break it. If it breaks, it was bad and I am more greatfull for someone proving me wrong (that might save my life some day) then someone supporting me. This list has a certain dynamic, cool sometimes, stormy at other, it's like being out at sea. We impersonate the ideas we propose so we have to accept some challenge. Now , I 'd rather have quiet discussions but silencing a discussion never makes it quiet, it only upsets and hides the situation. With all the desagrement I have had with other members of this list, There is still not a single one I dislike or I wouldn't help if I could. my 2 cents. Nadim.| 1841|1827|2003-06-16 15:37:34|nadim|Re: Mast-aft Sail rig|On Sunday 15 June 2003 10:55, jim_both wrote: > I found a website the describes a sailing rig for monohull(twin- > keeler?): > http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/ > > This is a very different rig and I was wondering anybody had any > thought about this, have these ideas been discredited or verified? The designer has been chasing that idea for a few years now. there was an article on boat design.net called "Revisiting tha mast aft ...' the drawingg were for a cat then. I don't have any link but I have the document (readable in IE only) and I'll send it to any one intressted. I haven't seen any boat build with that system but I am very curious about the results. I like the idea to be able to roll the main sail. and it is much cheaper (and simple) than a boom or mast furler and possible to build oneself.. > Also, a website that describes what look like Origami boatbuilding in > Aluminium: > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm It a frameless (real frame less if you don't count the bulkheads and furniture) design. They build in masive aluminium. It's apity there web site doesn show more of the boats. For the little storry, look at what they call a family sail boat (sainte-marie). The boat looks sleek but the inmarsat B 1.2 meters cupola looks, well, ridiculous. (and its more expensive than one of brents boat!) Cheers, Nadim.| 1842|1830|2003-06-16 20:19:16|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: metal boats and HF radio|There is no better ground plane than a steel boat. Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1843|1826|2003-06-16 23:54:31|Michael Casling|Re: Silence ?|Nadim wrote: Hi Glen and other, Silence? Please no. Now , I 'd rather have quiet discussions but silencing a discussion never makes it quiet, it only upsets and hides the situation. With all the desagrement I have had with other members of this list, There is still not a single one I dislike or I wouldn't help if I could. my 2 cents. Nadim. I aggree with Nadim. I felt there was too much silence when there should have been input. I needed to respond to Greg and I do not regret doing so. We are still talking and probably will continue to do so. I waited five days before responding so that my response would be more calmed and reasoned. I think Colin heavy oil felt the same way. However, as I have said before this is a site for origami boats of steel and aluminum, and I will respect that and the views of the moderator and fellow boaters. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1844|1844|2003-06-17 00:05:09|Stephen Wandling|Silence is your choice|There is absolutely nothing that the moderator Alex has said that imposes silence. He simply restated the standard ground rules that most of the members here support. If members follow those guidelines, then they can have whatever discussions they want. Can we please move away from the politics and resume discussions?| 1845|1844|2003-06-17 03:51:33|Graeme Mitchell|Re: Silence is your choice|Well lets keep it positive not negative I have a saying >>>>>>>"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even if they are wrong " AND YOUR WRONG" JUST >>>>>>>>>>>>> KIDDING GUYS Regards Graeme -------Original Message------- From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:05:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Silence is your choice There is absolutely nothing that the moderator Alex has said that imposes silence. He simply restated the standard ground rules that most of the members here support. If members follow those guidelines, then they can have whatever discussions they want. Can we please move away from the politics and resume discussions? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1846|1784|2003-06-17 14:53:27|evanmoonjunk|Re: Stern tube material|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" wrote: > Hey gang, > Getting ready to install a diesel. Is there a preferred stern tube > material? I'm leaning toward two inch, schedule 80 pipe, milled to > accept a standard two inch cutlass bearing. > Any thoughts? > Also, I noticed in the "plans" for my 36 footer, a half inch by two > inch "breastbone" extending from the bottom of the anchor well, > along the centerline, to an unknown point. Does anyone know how far > aft this extends on a twin keeler? > > Thanks > Jon Hi Jon, here is a little more info from my experience. Quite a few people have used sch.40 stainless as that is the most common size in the scrap yards. Disadvantage is that it distorts easier when welding and is also harder to match cutlass bearings and stuffing boxes. Sch 80 is better, less distortion and you can get both ends machined to fit. Sch 80 stainless is much harder to find in scrap yards but is possible. I built a 36' a number of years ago for a fellow that used to run a small floating dry dock in Nanaimo and did a lot of repair work on fish boats. He said that all the steel comercial boats used sch 80 mild steel for the stern tube and never had a problem. There is a fellow here in Nanaimo that is currently building another design steel boat and installed a mild steel stern tube I think it was sch80 or more. It was a special type but I don't recall what at the moment. This guy has built previous steel boats and is knowledgable. This might be a bit late for you but might help others. All for now...Evan| 1847|1831|2003-06-17 21:00:31|brentswain38|Re: Generators & Welders|I've used almost exclusively AC buzzboxes and have never felt the need for anything else. The engine driven ones are extremely expensive to run and offer no real advantages. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Keith Green wrote: > I live in Surrey. I don't think that welder will be much good to your boatbuilder. Those little buzz boxes are really only good for small stuff. There are only a few rods on the market which work on an AC-only machine, as well. > The larger gen-set type welders you can rent (come on their own trailer) are really good. I used one a few years back for a coule of days. Really smooth arc and easy to use. Lots of rental places around so I would check out some prices over the phone before getting one. > Most welding rods are designed for use with DC power only. > > keith > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Wandling > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:14 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Generators & Welders > > > I am getting my stalled steel boat project back in motion, but have hit > a bump. My current site, where I have my boat in a shed, had a yard > welder in a nearby shed as part of my rental. I have just been informed > that due to conflicts between the businesses there, there is now no > power to the welder and it looks like none can be arranged. > > I have a steel boat builder coming to work on the boat at the end of > June. I also own an AC buzzbox, and was wondering if anyone had any > advice about the size of generator that is recommended to run this > welder. I generally understand that you need a source of 220 V. and 50 > Amps. > > I guess another option might be to rent an engine driven welder. Has > anyone had experience with one of these in the Vancouver Lower > Mainland? My boat is in Richmond right now. > > So, if any of you have any advice or maybe even have a welder or > generator that I could rent, I would be eager to hear about it. I > estimate that the welding could be completed in 2 to 3 weeks. > > Stephen > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1848|1831|2003-06-17 23:48:21|Gord Schnell|Re: Generators & Welders|All the welding (including SS) was done on my 40' with a "buzz-box". Gord brentswain38 wrote: > > I've used almost exclusively AC buzzboxes and have never > felt the > need for anything else. The engine driven ones are > extremely > expensive to run and offer no real advantages. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Keith Green > wrote: > > I live in Surrey. I don't think that welder will be > much good > to your boatbuilder. Those little buzz boxes are really > only good for > small stuff. There are only a few rods on the market which > work on an > AC-only machine, as well. > > The larger gen-set type welders you can rent (come > on their own > trailer) are really good. I used one a few years back for > a coule of > days. Really smooth arc and easy to use. Lots of rental > places around > so I would check out some prices over the phone before > getting one. > > Most welding rods are designed for use with DC power > only. > > > > > > keith > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Stephen Wandling > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:14 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Generators & Welders > > > > > > I am getting my stalled steel boat project back in > motion, but > have hit > > a bump. My current site, where I have my boat in a > shed, had a > yard > > welder in a nearby shed as part of my rental. I have > just been > informed > > that due to conflicts between the businesses there, > there is now > no > > power to the welder and it looks like none can be > arranged. > > > > I have a steel boat builder coming to work on the boat > at the end > of > > June. I also own an AC buzzbox, and was wondering if > anyone had > any > > advice about the size of generator that is recommended > to run this > > welder. I generally understand that you need a source > of 220 V. > and 50 > > Amps. > > > > I guess another option might be to rent an engine > driven welder. > Has > > anyone had experience with one of these in the > Vancouver Lower > > Mainland? My boat is in Richmond right now. > > > > So, if any of you have any advice or maybe even have a > welder or > > generator that I could rent, I would be eager to hear > about it. I > > estimate that the welding could be completed in 2 to 3 > weeks. > > > > Stephen > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1849|1784|2003-06-17 23:49:14|Gord Schnell|Re: Stern tube material|That special tubing was probably Shelby Tubing. It is seamless extruded and annealed. Gord evanmoonjunk wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" > > wrote: > > Hey gang, > > Getting ready to install a diesel. Is there a preferred > stern tube > > material? I'm leaning toward two inch, schedule 80 pipe, > milled to > > accept a standard two inch cutlass bearing. > > Any thoughts? > > Also, I noticed in the "plans" for my 36 footer, a half > inch by two > > inch "breastbone" extending from the bottom of the > anchor well, > > along the centerline, to an unknown point. Does anyone > know how far > > aft this extends on a twin keeler? > > > > Thanks > > Jon > Hi Jon, here is a little more info from my experience. > Quite a few > people have used sch.40 stainless as that is the most > common size in > the scrap yards. Disadvantage is that it distorts easier > when welding > and is also harder to match cutlass bearings and stuffing > boxes. Sch > 80 is better, less distortion and you can get both ends > machined to > fit. Sch 80 stainless is much harder to find in scrap > yards but is > possible. I built a 36' a number of years ago for a fellow > that used > to run a small floating dry dock in Nanaimo and did a lot > of repair > work on fish boats. He said that all the steel comercial > boats used > sch 80 mild steel for the stern tube and never had a > problem. > There is a fellow here in Nanaimo that is currently > building another > design steel boat and installed a mild steel stern tube I > think it > was sch80 or more. It was a special type but I don't > recall what at > the moment. This guy has built previous steel boats and is > > knowledgable. > This might be a bit late for you but might help others. > All for > now...Evan > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1850|1830|2003-06-18 23:09:16|Alan Smith|Re: metal boats and HF radio|Actually, a metal boat of the size we are takling about is too small to be a good radio ground at HF frequencies. The idea is to electronically couple your signal out to the surrounding sea water. Only then do you have a good size ground plane. A metal just hull makes this much easier to do. There should be no trouble keeping the DC power ground separate from the radio ground. The radio system should incorporate a "DC block" using capacitors to isolate any DC from the hull. If you remember your basic electronics, a capacitor will act as an open circuit to DC current while allowing AC signals, which includes radio frequencies, to pass. Also, it's just as easy to install an HF radio on a fiberglass boat. Simply use an antenna that does not require a ground. See my article in the upcoming issue of Ocean Navigator to find out how. Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com| 1851|1830|2003-06-19 03:55:17|info@easysoftwareinc.com|metal boats and HF radio|An article that deals with many aspects of grounding and electrolysis, and provides a design for a DC block as might be required to isolate your power ground from your radio antenna ground. http://www.sailmail.com/grounds.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1852|1852|2003-06-19 14:08:05|info@easysoftwareinc.com|galvanized or stainless|Most production boats employ quite a bit of stainless steel (SS), and people have come to see this as being "nautical". I would recommend that cruising yachts approach SS with caution. The problem with SS is that it is apt to fail without warning. SS is great for wear points. Thus, places that are apt to be damaged by anchors, lines, blocks, fittings, etc are well served by the installation of SS wear points. However, SS is subject to work hardening and various forms of corrosion. The nature of SS can make it difficult to spot these problem until the part fails catastrophically. SS is only really stainless in the presence of air (oxygen). Thus, underwater you are likely to get better service from materials such as monel. Bearings and seals can cause pitting in SS shafts, leading to failures in salt water pumps, prop shafts, and rudder shafts. One problem we have found almost universal is with the salt water pump on the engine. Eventually the pump starts leaking a few drops of water every time it stops or starts, and damages engine mounts, engine beds, or other gear. Frequent and ineffective rebuilding often results. A solution we have found is to solder/braze a brass pipe nipple to the bottom drain hole in the pump the next time you rebuild it. Attach a clear plastic hose to the pipe nipple after the pump is installed, and lead the hose to the salt water sump. This will avoid costly damage to the engine or surrounding area. The clear plastic hose allows you to sight a failed seal. You do still need to check the pump regularly for major leaks, lest the absence of water damage causes you to sink the boat. Above water, be careful to watch for any "unfair loads" placed on SS parts (or any parts for that manner). Rigging and turnbuckles for example must be protected with universal type joints at all connections, to prevent side loads from causing failures. We sailed with a boat that came over one day to ask why their headstay might be getting lose. We were all pretty green and made all the wrong guesses. The next day their headstay parted, and except for the wire luff in the headsail the rig would have come down. The top end fitting on their headstay had been installed without a universal. It could rotate fore and aft, but not athwart-ships. The side loads on the stay eventually caused it to fail. They had gone up the rig to inspect the wire, and everything looked fine. What had happened was that the inner lay of the 1/19 wire had parted first, and was hidden by the outer lay. The wire was slowly twisting and lengthening. Any time two pieces of SS come together there is the potential for crevice corrosion, as oxygen is restricted from the joint. Swaged fitting are particularly prone to failure in the tropics, but there are many other potential problems. Study the causes of crevice corrosion, because it can be a killer. In the tropics many boats find Norseman or Staylock style fittings more reliable than swaged fittings. These are typically assembled with marine sealant on the inside to prevent the entry of brine into the fitting. There is some evidence that the accumulation of brine in swaged fittings is a source of failure in the bottom end fittings. These trap salt water while sailing, and as the water evaporates, the brine concentrates until it reaches a point at which it reacts corrosively with the SS, leading rapidly to failure. In the tropics and semi-tropical regions, there are often long periods of dry weather for the brine to concentrate through evaporation. There are various grades of SS, and manufacturing techniques that can reduce crevice corrosion. Paint and other protective coatings is not really a solution to SS. Coatings effectively shut of the oxygen, effectively turning the SS into steel. The protection you receive is then no better than the coating applied. Many people do employ SS with great success. However, there are also many failures. Any time you see SS wire with a broken strand, or any weeping areas on SS, this should serve as a red flag. However, many boats also report failures without any warning at all. SS failures on lifelines can lead to loss of life, and are a good reason to consider solid rails. Offshore we have an unbreakable rule. No one goes up the companionway without a harness clipped to the boat. We tells guest to regard the ocean as molten lava. Falling into the ocean from a boat under sail you have about the same chance of survival. Except for the headstays our rigging is galvanized. We oil the wire annually with boiled linseed oil. Other people report success with lanolin, though I was less satisfied. Our wire has lasted 20 years, though I am planning to replace the wire next season. The quality of wire and the quality of maintenance can affect this greatly. Before you select galvanized rigging, check that you have the right wire for the job. Galvanized rigging is rougher than SS rigging, so it can be hard on sails. The threads especially. We use soft 1/2" black, drip irrigation tubing, slit vertically, over the shrouds to prevent chafe. On the headstays we use SS rigging, to minimize chafe, and because we have hanked sails. Bronze hanks make quick work of galvanizing. We have had 2 SS turnbuckles explode from crevice corrosion. The corrosion had started inside the barrel, along the threads, and resulted in a hairline fault in the turnbuckles that was all but invisible to the naked eye. Dye penetrant might have spotted the problem, but I didn't. At the time I still thought SS meant indestructible. Our turnbuckles are now all galvanized, even on the SS headstays. I have never had cause to worry about them. I also use linseed oil on them. Over time they eventually can become rusty, especially where they are apt to immersion while sailing. Occasionally the rust advances to the point where a turnbuckle can only be removed with a hacksaw. Invariably the rust has not penetrated the turnbuckle the way crevice corrosion can, and the steel inside is still perfect. This is not a recommendation to leave rusty parts in use, rather to point out that rust and crevice corrosion can act differently. A few taps on a rusty galvanized turnbuckle with a chipping hammer can quickly reveal how far the rust has traveled. This approach does not work on SS. Many cruising boats are reporting that for insurance purposes they are now required to re-rig every 7-8 years. In SS this can be an expensive proposition. There can be significant savings for a cruising boat to rig in galvanized. Our original 500 foot spool of galvanized wire was $75. In SS the spool of wire was over $1000, without considering the cost of end fittings. I would expect a good grade of galvanized wire and turnbuckles to last 10 years with annual maintenance, and in many cases longer. The advantage of galvanized besides cost, is that it rarely fails without warning. You will see rust on the wire or fittings, and streaks on the deck or hull, long before the part fails. If you ignore these warning, and continue to use the part, whose fault is it if it fails. The galvanized part told you it was time to replace it. Unfortunately, SS parts do not always supply that warning. One idea cruising boats might consider, is to do the original outfitting in galvanized. After you return from offshore, replace your now old galvanized rigging with SS. For local cruising SS is perfectly adequate for most people, especially if the rig is kept clean with fresh water or rain, and will in many cases increase the resale value. However, while cruising I think there is a peace of mind to be gained from galvanized. It isn't for everyone, but it should at least be considered. It isn't often on a boat that you get a chance to save money and increase safety at the same time. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1853|1852|2003-06-20 02:48:50|Alex Christie|Re: galvanized or stainless|I've owned a few fiberglass boats from the 1970's and I've always noticed that the stainless fittings "looked good", but were very weak. The implications of having weak fittings while sailing near- shore are bad enough, but I shudder to think what would happen offshore with the same weak rig! I think manufacturers also paid very little attention to side-loading of their fittings --- they just wanted to get that boat off the showroom floor and into the hapless new owner's hands as fast as possible. Brent advocates using galvanized rigging on his boats, and the price difference between that and SS is really huge. I have seen one boat using SS wire on selected parts of their rigging, then going galvanized for most other parts which aren't subject to chafe from sails. In this way, they could keep a very sharp eye out on the one ss bit, and replace as needed. Is there anyone who has done this who would like to comment on this? Which part of the rig did you employ stainless, and which galvanized? Alex| 1854|1852|2003-06-20 11:24:14|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: galvanized or stainless|I have received email from a couple of people regarding the rigging on the 50 foot alloys boats we designed. In some of the pictures you will notice these boats are rigged with galvanized. The galvanized and unpainted alloy look very similar, not out of place at all. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/JM50/JM50.htm http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Harvey50/Harvey50.htm I would also be interested to hear from other people and their experiences with SS and/or galvanized. The subject of galvanized and SS usually generates quite a bit of discussion among cruising sailors at sunset at the anchorages, and I am always keen to learn more. One of the SS turnbuckles that failed on our boat was at the forward end of the lifeline while I was making a sail change on the foredeck, leaning back against the lifeline, which has given me an appreciation of the dangers. I had no idea at the time that SS was prone to those kind of failures, and it could quite easily have proven to be my last lesson. There isn't any sailor out there that knows so much about cruising and sailing that he or she cannot learn more from the experiences of others. That is certainly true for me. Information in books seems to only take you so far, and is quite often contradictory. A lot of the time I don't know what to believe when I read something, every expert saying something different. Most sailors realize after awhile that the subject is so large that no one is an expert, only specialists and technicians. Most of the people we have met cruising were just like us. Spent their lives in debt wondering what it was all about, and were lucky enough and determined enough to get to go sailing. There are very few millionaire cruisers. Their boats are there, crews at the ready. The owners fly in for a couple of weeks a year, but they are hardly cruising. We may think the way to go cruising is to make a lot of money, but it seems like the people that go down that road are rarely willing to leave the money behind once they have it. Most of us have a good idea of what works for us, simply because that is what we know. At sundown in the anchorages we usually gather for refreshments after a hard day of book reading and routine maintenance, to swap lies about our sailing prowess, the huge volume of fish that we catch, and how irresistible we are to the opposite sex. True legends in our own minds. Eventually the conversations turns to what works for others, because for a cruising sailor that knowledge can make the difference between success and failure. There is no lack of opinion in these discussions and in the end we all learn a great deal. thanks Alex for your continued great work! ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: galvanized or stainless I've owned a few fiberglass boats from the 1970's and I've always noticed that the stainless fittings "looked good", but were very weak. The implications of having weak fittings while sailing near- shore are bad enough, but I shudder to think what would happen offshore with the same weak rig! I think manufacturers also paid very little attention to side-loading of their fittings --- they just wanted to get that boat off the showroom floor and into the hapless new owner's hands as fast as possible. Brent advocates using galvanized rigging on his boats, and the price difference between that and SS is really huge. I have seen one boat using SS wire on selected parts of their rigging, then going galvanized for most other parts which aren't subject to chafe from sails. In this way, they could keep a very sharp eye out on the one ss bit, and replace as needed. Is there anyone who has done this who would like to comment on this? Which part of the rig did you employ stainless, and which galvanized? Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1855|1852|2003-06-20 13:43:33|Richard Till|Re: galvanized or stainless|Alex, 316 ss is about 15% weaker than 302/304 ss. People are always surprised when ss bolts shear off so easily--it's simple: they are weaker. rt >From: "Alex Christie" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: galvanized or stainless >Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 06:48:49 -0000 > >I've owned a few fiberglass boats from the 1970's and I've always >noticed that the stainless fittings "looked good", but were very >weak. The implications of having weak fittings while sailing near- >shore are bad enough, but I shudder to think what would happen >offshore with the same weak rig! I think manufacturers also paid >very little attention to side-loading of their fittings --- they just >wanted to get that boat off the showroom floor and into the hapless >new owner's hands as fast as possible. > >Brent advocates using galvanized rigging on his boats, and the price >difference between that and SS is really huge. I have seen one boat >using SS wire on selected parts of their rigging, then going >galvanized for most other parts which aren't subject to chafe from >sails. In this way, they could keep a very sharp eye out on the one >ss bit, and replace as needed. Is there anyone who has done this who >would like to comment on this? Which part of the rig did you employ >stainless, and which galvanized? > >Alex > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1856|1856|2003-06-21 13:57:26|mistamarbles|swain bareboat charter|Hi, I'm interested in the Brent Swain designs, and am looking to try one out the end of this august for 7-10 days. Ideally bound for desolation sound. But Vancouver east coast vancouver Island ok too. Thanks Peter| 1857|1852|2003-06-21 15:26:56|brentswain38|Re: galvanized or stainless|A friend bought enogh galvanized high tensile 1x7 wire at a scrapyard to rig a 36 footer for $25CDN. For less money I'd rather have a 2 year old galvanized rig than a 20 year old stainless rig. For galvanized wire, the bigger the strands the greater resistance to corrosion, which makes 1x7 high tensile the best. Coastal cruising , galvanized rigging will last a lifetime. Offshore it will rust eventually if not painted. The last rig I put on my boat, I painted with epoxy tar, wrapped it with hockey tape , then painted it with another coat or two of epoxy tar, and put black split plastic pipe over it. I feel it's good for a lifetime. Having worked on brake press for many years I had plenty of opportunity to compare stainless with other steels . Structurally stainless is extremely prone to metal fatigue and too unreliable for rigging the offshore cruiser.It's main attraction is it's decorative value , a priority one can't afford to indulge in when rigging a yacht for offshore work. If a stainless rig has to be replaced every few years because of the risk of metal fatigue, something most good surveyors recomend on offshore boats, then the corrosion resistance becones a moot point.A galvanized rig will outlast it in terms of reliable ,useful life. Stories of healthy looking stainless failing without warning are very common amoung off shore cruisers. One client, with a lot of offshore experience and lots of money ,told me he was going for galvanized rigging because he wanted to be able to simply look at the rig and see what shape it was in, something you can do with galvanized rigging, but not with stainless. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I have received email from a couple of people regarding the rigging on the 50 foot alloys boats we designed. In some of the pictures you will notice these boats are rigged with galvanized. The galvanized and unpainted alloy look very similar, not out of place at all. > > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/JM50/JM50.htm > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Harvey50/Harvey50.htm > > I would also be interested to hear from other people and their experiences with SS and/or galvanized. > > The subject of galvanized and SS usually generates quite a bit of discussion among cruising sailors at sunset at the anchorages, and I am always keen to learn more. One of the SS turnbuckles that failed on our boat was at the forward end of the lifeline while I was making a sail change on the foredeck, leaning back against the lifeline, which has given me an appreciation of the dangers. I had no idea at the time that SS was prone to those kind of failures, and it could quite easily have proven to be my last lesson. > > There isn't any sailor out there that knows so much about cruising and sailing that he or she cannot learn more from the experiences of others. That is certainly true for me. Information in books seems to only take you so far, and is quite often contradictory. A lot of the time I don't know what to believe when I read something, every expert saying something different. Most sailors realize after awhile that the subject is so large that no one is an expert, only specialists and technicians. > > Most of the people we have met cruising were just like us. Spent their lives in debt wondering what it was all about, and were lucky enough and determined enough to get to go sailing. There are very few millionaire cruisers. Their boats are there, crews at the ready. The owners fly in for a couple of weeks a year, but they are hardly cruising. We may think the way to go cruising is to make a lot of money, but it seems like the people that go down that road are rarely willing to leave the money behind once they have it. > > Most of us have a good idea of what works for us, simply because that is what we know. At sundown in the anchorages we usually gather for refreshments after a hard day of book reading and routine maintenance, to swap lies about our sailing prowess, the huge volume of fish that we catch, and how irresistible we are to the opposite sex. True legends in our own minds. Eventually the conversations turns to what works for others, because for a cruising sailor that knowledge can make the difference between success and failure. There is no lack of opinion in these discussions and in the end we all learn a great deal. > > thanks Alex for your continued great work! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex Christie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:48 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: galvanized or stainless > > > I've owned a few fiberglass boats from the 1970's and I've always > noticed that the stainless fittings "looked good", but were very > weak. The implications of having weak fittings while sailing near- > shore are bad enough, but I shudder to think what would happen > offshore with the same weak rig! I think manufacturers also paid > very little attention to side-loading of their fittings --- they just > wanted to get that boat off the showroom floor and into the hapless > new owner's hands as fast as possible. > > Brent advocates using galvanized rigging on his boats, and the price > difference between that and SS is really huge. I have seen one boat > using SS wire on selected parts of their rigging, then going > galvanized for most other parts which aren't subject to chafe from > sails. In this way, they could keep a very sharp eye out on the one > ss bit, and replace as needed. Is there anyone who has done this who > would like to comment on this? Which part of the rig did you employ > stainless, and which galvanized? > > Alex > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1858|1858|2003-06-22 11:58:25|freebc7|Junk rigs|Does anyone have information on junk rigs used on Swain boats? Is it true that a jug rig is easier for a solo sailer to handle? Thanks, Pam| 1859|1858|2003-06-22 14:46:07|M. Fletcher|Re: Junk rigs|Here's the link to the junk rig group. Lots on experience and info there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/ Mary > Does anyone have information on junk rigs used on Swain > boats? Is it true that a jug rig is easier for a solo sailer to > handle? > > Thanks, > Pam > | 1860|1860|2003-06-24 23:40:32|crzylarry|New Member|Greetings every1. Im not new to boating but Aits been a really long time away from the water. Im getting back into the hobbie and enjoy this site. All of this boat building is crazy. You guys/gals impress me too much to put into words. Thanks for the 3-D renderings. They are really nice. If anyone is in Eastern Coastal North Carolina hit me up. Im going back to go boating the second week of July from Los Angeles. Enjoy the w| 1861|1861|2003-06-25 10:46:53|Glen|The "BUG"|O.K. I now know that I am very ill and need many days at sea to cure my ills. We went ( the whole family ) went sailing with friends of ours on Monday. The weather was fantastic, the winds were good and company out of this world. The whole family is now hooked on sailing just as bad as I am!! So much so that the wife has told me to post a message that while we are building our dream that we need to have something a little smaller to go out and play with. So if anyone on or close to Vancouver Island hears or knows of a good deal on a small boat somewhere in the 27ft range, sailboat that is!! Cheap is good free is better!!!!!!!! I am not against having to work on her if the deal is good! Please e-mail and let me know! Thank to all Glen| 1862|1862|2003-06-25 23:25:59|kingsknight4life|Railings?|Hi, everyone. I finally decided to do something about my sailing "itch" and bought a boat. I wrestled with the idea of building a Swain boat for a yr. but come to realize that right now it isn't feasible for me and they command to high a price for me to buy a used one. anyway, I like the solid railings on his boat. the wire ones seemd flimsy to me. Can i put steel life lines/railings on a fibreglass boat? thanks Rowland| 1863|1862|2003-06-26 08:50:14|pvanderwaart|Re: Railings?|> Can i put steel life lines/railings on a fibreglass > boat? A gentleman in my club replaced the usual wire lifelines on his Tartan 34 with SS tubing. The motivation was some incapacity on the part of his wife, I believe. It looked pretty good, but I don't have any details of how it was done. Basically, it was like having the bow pulpit extended to the stern pulpit. Ask around your local marine tradesmen (riggers, etc) for who makes custom pulpits in your area. Peter| 1865|1865|2003-06-29 04:00:53|Alex Christie|origami yachts get good use|Well, I've had a revelation: I saw something today at down at the local Comox government wharf that brought a smile to my face. As I wandered the docks checking on the origami fleet in the bright sunshine of an almost tropical day, I found that of nearly ALL the boats tied up at the Comox wharf, only three sailboats were actually attended by their owners. And these three boats were of origami construction. Odd coincedence? The folks on MOONRAVEN, a 36 foot Swain-design, had her on the grid, waiting for a rising tide to float her off, probably after painting the bottom. Someone else was aboard the 50 foot aluminum PANGEA (Greg's design), and despite my attempts at not appearing to look through their portlights as I walked by (a dockside courtesy I learned from my days living aboard) , the fellow in the cabin seemed to happily acknowledge my prescence with a nod and a smile. On the 36 foot Swain aft-cabin version SILAS CROSBY, the owners were enjoying a sizzling barbecue on the aft rail. Everyone looked happy and content to be on their respective origami boats. My impression was that all other boats at the dock, power and sail, were empty, devoid of life. I don't think it is solely the fact that these boats were constructed using the origami technique which makes them get used, but it does seem that the common thread among these three very different yachts is that they have been built to conform exactly to the owners' individual tastes and dreams. These boats are true servants to their owners, not the other way around. The owners in no way have to fit themselves into someone else's vision of what a proper boat should be, and their boats fit their needs with little compromise to contend with beyond the fact that any boat needs maintenance and attention. Customization seems to me the key to getting the boat you want, keeping it, and enjoying it. This possibly answers the question that always comes to mind when I see acres of sailboats unused and afloat at marinas everywhere. Just like clothing, you tend to wear the ones that fit, and the rest stay on their hangers. Alex| 1866|1866|2003-06-29 16:42:32|edmdgd|Steel Boat Purchase|Hello to the Group, I have always in the past owned Fiberglass boats. I am contemplating a long term cruise with a new vessel preferably of steel (new to me that is). As some of the boats that I am looking at are out of the country I am a little wary of the process. May I ask your opinions on what to look for. Is sounding necessary?. What does sounding cost?. Is repair on an Origami (frameless) as easy to repair in out of the way places as the framed boat design. How is metal condition under sprayed foam evaluated?. Am I correct in assuming that the compass in my binoculars will no longer act appropiately?. Hand bearing compass same problem?. I am sure I have many more areas of concern but maybe your answers will cover them. Thank You Gerad| 1867|1867|2003-07-01 09:44:35|info@easysoftwareinc.com|new 50 foot design status|The following post is a follow-up to those people interested in our new 50 foot design. I am also emailing interested parties directly. If you did not receive a copy of this email directly, and would like to be included on our mailing list, please let me know at x50@.... Hi to all, My apologies for not getting back to everyone sooner. We've been busy getting the site ready to start the Genoa 55, and I only got back into town this weekend. In between building forms, shoveling dirt and welding rebar, Ron and I have had been discussing the shape the new boat will take. As you might imagine everyone has slightly different requirements, and we want to try and match as many different people as possible. We've been experimenting with a couple of new software ideas to let us create origami hulls. We plan to capture aspects of both the Darwin and the Genoa into a new designs. Once we see that this will work to our satisfaction, we will bring forward the new design for your review. We have received quite a few letters about the new 50 foot design, as well as the 55 and 60 foot designs, so it looks like there is a lot of interest out there in larger origami style boats. If I missed replying to anyone over the last few weeks as I've been moving back and forth please let me know. With the volume of spam I get daily sometimes mail gets deleted by mistake. We have reports that the Darwin is going to be featured in an upcoming magazine. Once this is confirmed I will provide further details. We are still awaiting surveys from some people. If you would like a say in the new design please drop me a line. All information will be kept confidential. Each new design we create has taught us quite a bit about the origami process, how to optimize the patterns, and create new shapes. We want to continue this in the x50, which is why your input is important to us. regards Greg Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1868|1862|2003-07-02 03:29:45|emearg88|Re: Railings?|Hi Rowland I had galvanised metal railings on a previous boat. They were top and intermediate rails of about 3/4 inch galvanised steel welded to stanchions, pullpit and pushpit. They certainly gave you a feeling of security, but at the cost of weight and appearance - they were very visible. I never really liked them, but my wife loved them. Similarly yachtie friends hated them and 'lubbers loved them. Wire lifelines are much stronger than they look, but some are concerned that if one fell really heavily they could act like a cheese-cutter. Hence some offshore boats have replaced wire lifelines with 1/2 inch vectran or spectra cored braid. (The exotic core is needed to minimise stretch). Another approach by a local powerboat was to laminate the top rail from 1/8 inch timber. Looks a million dollars. Fair winds Graeme| 1869|1816|2003-07-02 03:40:26|emearg88|Re: tips and tricks|I can confirm that Gregs chain bashing technique works quite well although it is essential that the chain be under at least moderate tension. An improvement on the technique, provided you are not in a rush, not off a lee shore, and can take your time is as follows. 1. Bash the chain then wait five minutes, 2. Haul in ten feet of chain then stop hauling, 3. Bash the chain and wait another five minutes, 4. Repeat process untill all chain is aboard. Bashing gets rid of big globs of mud and the waiting allows a lot of the loose slime to wash off. Bashing works for a maximum of about ten feet of chain so it must be repeated. Fair winds Graeme| 1870|1816|2003-07-02 09:20:08|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: tips and tricks|Thanks Graeme. Chain bashing was invented by Preston Moore aboard Monella, and now Gitana II. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: emearg88 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 12:40 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: tips and tricks I can confirm that Gregs chain bashing technique works quite well although it is essential that the chain be under at least moderate tension. An improvement on the technique, provided you are not in a rush, not off a lee shore, and can take your time is as follows. 1. Bash the chain then wait five minutes, 2. Haul in ten feet of chain then stop hauling, 3. Bash the chain and wait another five minutes, 4. Repeat process untill all chain is aboard. Bashing gets rid of big globs of mud and the waiting allows a lot of the loose slime to wash off. Bashing works for a maximum of about ten feet of chain so it must be repeated. Fair winds Graeme Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1872|1816|2003-07-03 02:20:17|John Jones|Re: tips and tricks|A phire hose powered by the main engine werks okay too. ---------- >From: "emearg88" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: tips and tricks >Date: Wed, Jul 2, 2003, 3:40 > > I can confirm that Gregs chain bashing technique works quite well > although it is essential that the chain be under at least moderate > tension. > > An improvement on the technique, provided you are not in a rush, > not off a lee shore, and can take your time is as follows. > > 1. Bash the chain then wait five minutes, > 2. Haul in ten feet of chain then stop hauling, > 3. Bash the chain and wait another five minutes, > 4. Repeat process untill all chain is aboard. > > Bashing gets rid of big globs of mud and the waiting allows a lot of > the loose slime to wash off. Bashing works for a maximum of about ten > feet of chain so it must be repeated. > > Fair winds > > Graeme > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1873|1873|2003-07-04 12:20:34|info@easysoftwareinc.com|computer designed origami|Earlier I wrote an article that mentioned the limitations of designing origami yachts in paper. This article expands on this discussion. Over the years we have created hundreds if not thousands of origami boats in paper. Early on we realized that paper model were not a reliable way to built full sized boats. When designing a boat, you want to be able to control aspects of the design such as length, beam, waterline, displacement, sheer and overall shape. The lines of the boat. These all work together to create a suitable hull. If you take a piece of paper, and cut darts into it, this will fold up into a shape that with some practice will resemble a boat. However, you will have little control over the dimensions of the boat you have created. Unless you solve the geometry behind the process, you will have to measure the results, and adjust the paper repeatedly to try and get close to your intended design. It is simple to measure the piece of paper, but the problem is that the piece of paper when folded is not the boat you originally drew. If you are like us you will find that adding a small amount to increased the depth of the hull will also change the beam, so then you must move the chine, which changes the sheer, and then after it is all done, you end up with a knuckle at the chine end points. So you change the dart to remove the knuckle, which changes the beam and the sheer and the depth of the hull, and you are back where you started. As you increase the number of darts to make the hull rounder amidships, the problem become increasingly more complicated. Our process is different. We take the line drawings, use the computer to lay in the darts fair to the hull (hard to do by eye), and then calculate the patterns to solve this shape. We work from the hull outwards to predict the pattern. Working with paper you are forced to do a great deal of trial and error, working inwards from the paper to try and guess the hull. Computer designed origami is a great advancement in the process of designing origami boats, as it allows for a high degree of precision and predictability in the final shape. It has allowed us a great deal of freedom to experiment, and every new design we have done has incorporated new features that we never dreamed of in paper. Computer designed origami is simply a continuation of the design process for all yachts. At one time yachts were designed first by building models, and then construction the lines. The limitations of this method eventually led to this process being reversed, and the lines being drawn first. Computers were then introduced to aid in drawing the lines. We have simply adapted this process to origami. The origami process itself has a great future for amateur and professional construction. For the amateur it allows construction of fair and smooth hulls without the high degree of skill required for traditional metal boat construction. For the professional builder it allows for one-off custom construction at a price competitive with mass production yachts. The origami shape itself is a great boat shape. The tortured bows and sterns provide strength and rigidly that you cannot achieve in traditional metal boat construction without significant framing. The chined midsection provides roll damping, tracking and strengthening of the structure, without the appearance of chines. Multi-chined origami allows you to create a metal boat without the "slab sided" appearance common in metal boat construction, and provides strengthening points to attach rub rails and twin keels. There is considerable room for improvement and advancement of the origami process through the introduction of computers. I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a budding young designer that will eventually make our designs look crude by comparison. It is only to be expected, because we have only scratched the surface of what is possible. I expect there will come a time when the majority of custom metal boats will be constructed using the origami process, and builders will wonder in amazement why it was ever done any other way. Is there still room for paper designs? You bet. I would not be doing origami boats today except for the magic moment that occurred when I folded up my first paper model and realized the potential of the process. If you have never folded up a model, do one before the end of this day because this is the first step. Every boat begins when you stop thinking about building, and start building. Building a paper model is the first origami boat you will build. It will not be the last. Once you have taken paper models as far as you can go, and want to see how this compares with computer assisted designs, please let us know and we will be happy to discuss this further. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 web: www.easysoftwareinc.com email: greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1874|1873|2003-07-04 20:20:23|brentswain38|Re: computer designed origami|I've always began the design for origami boats by designing a hard chine hull on paper in the traditional way with the chines running the full length of the hull, then building a model . This lets me do all the calculations in the traditional way. I then take the patterns off the model, cut the bottom pattern in half, and attach the bow and stern to eliminate the chines there . This doesn't change the area of the sections below the waterline in any significant way.Computers make this job a lot easier, but computers can't match the experiences of hundreds of boats built to a given design and their evolution.Eventually there will be computer designed boats oput there with the same track record behind them , but evolution of the design will depend on their designer's open mindedness in improving them. If you look at a round bilge fibreglass boat you'll see that amidships there is very little flare or curve between the sheerline and the waterline amidships . On multichine hulls there is almost aleays a chine out of the water there.Thus multichine origami boats are usually far less asthetically pleasing than a single chine hull as on a single chine hull the chines are entirely below the waterline. Even with origami techniques, a multichine hull is a lot more work than a single chine hull and the pitfalls are greater.Having built several multichine hulls I see no real advantage to them, certainly not enough to justify the extra hassle . Rub strakes are OK on an aluminium boat, but on a steel boat they are a maintenance headache. Unless they are stainless( Much easdier to do with plasma cutters, ) or flame sprayed. It's impossible to keep paint from chipping off them.Friends with rubstrakes say there is more work trying to keep paint on them than the rest of the hull put together.Flat surfaces are much easier to maintain. The same maintenance problem would happen with chines above the waterline without the rubstrakes. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Earlier I wrote an article that mentioned the limitations of designing origami yachts in paper. This article expands on this discussion. > > Over the years we have created hundreds if not thousands of origami boats in paper. Early on we realized that paper model were not a reliable way to built full sized boats. > > When designing a boat, you want to be able to control aspects of the design such as length, beam, waterline, displacement, sheer and overall shape. The lines of the boat. These all work together to create a suitable hull. > > If you take a piece of paper, and cut darts into it, this will fold up into a shape that with some practice will resemble a boat. > > However, you will have little control over the dimensions of the boat you have created. Unless you solve the geometry behind the process, you will have to measure the results, and adjust the paper repeatedly to try and get close to your intended design. It is simple to measure the piece of paper, but the problem is that the piece of paper when folded is not the boat you originally drew. > > If you are like us you will find that adding a small amount to increased the depth of the hull will also change the beam, so then you must move the chine, which changes the sheer, and then after it is all done, you end up with a knuckle at the chine end points. So you change the dart to remove the knuckle, which changes the beam and the sheer and the depth of the hull, and you are back where you started. As you increase the number of darts to make the hull rounder amidships, the problem become increasingly more complicated. > > Our process is different. We take the line drawings, use the computer to lay in the darts fair to the hull (hard to do by eye), and then calculate the patterns to solve this shape. We work from the hull outwards to predict the pattern. Working with paper you are forced to do a great deal of trial and error, working inwards from the paper to try and guess the hull. > > Computer designed origami is a great advancement in the process of designing origami boats, as it allows for a high degree of precision and predictability in the final shape. It has allowed us a great deal of freedom to experiment, and every new design we have done has incorporated new features that we never dreamed of in paper. > > Computer designed origami is simply a continuation of the design process for all yachts. At one time yachts were designed first by building models, and then construction the lines. The limitations of this method eventually led to this process being reversed, and the lines being drawn first. Computers were then introduced to aid in drawing the lines. We have simply adapted this process to origami. > > The origami process itself has a great future for amateur and professional construction. For the amateur it allows construction of fair and smooth hulls without the high degree of skill required for traditional metal boat construction. For the professional builder it allows for one-off custom construction at a price competitive with mass production yachts. > > The origami shape itself is a great boat shape. The tortured bows and sterns provide strength and rigidly that you cannot achieve in traditional metal boat construction without significant framing. The chined midsection provides roll damping, tracking and strengthening of the structure, without the appearance of chines. Multi-chined origami allows you to create a metal boat without the "slab sided" appearance common in metal boat construction, and provides strengthening points to attach rub rails and twin keels. > > There is considerable room for improvement and advancement of the origami process through the introduction of computers. I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a budding young designer that will eventually make our designs look crude by comparison. It is only to be expected, because we have only scratched the surface of what is possible. I expect there will come a time when the majority of custom metal boats will be constructed using the origami process, and builders will wonder in amazement why it was ever done any other way. > > Is there still room for paper designs? You bet. I would not be doing origami boats today except for the magic moment that occurred when I folded up my first paper model and realized the potential of the process. If you have never folded up a model, do one before the end of this day because this is the first step. Every boat begins when you stop thinking about building, and start building. Building a paper model is the first origami boat you will build. It will not be the last. > > Once you have taken paper models as far as you can go, and want to see how this compares with computer assisted designs, please let us know and we will be happy to discuss this further. > > Greg Elliott > Easy Software Inc. > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: (604) 987-0050 > fax:(253) 550-6928 > web: www.easysoftwareinc.com > email: greg@e... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1875|1866|2003-07-04 20:29:37|brentswain38|Re: Steel Boat Purchase|You can determine the condition of steel under spray foam by dragging your fingernails over the foam . Where it has separated, it will sound hollow. That is where you should look for corrosion. If the hull has been thoroughly painted before foaming, there should be no problem . Avoid any hull which has been foamed over bare steel or primer. Ultrasound equipment can tell you the thickness of a hull from the outside. Repairing origami boats is no harder than any other type of metal boat, altho the liklihood of the being dammaged enough to need repair is extremely remote. Yor compass in your binoculars or handbearing compass will be useless . A steering compass can be adequately adjusted. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edmdgd" wrote: > Hello to the Group, > > I have always in the past owned Fiberglass boats. I am contemplating > a long term cruise with a new vessel preferably of steel (new to me > that is). As some of the boats that I am looking at are out of the > country I am a little wary of the process. May I ask your opinions on > what to look for. Is sounding necessary?. What does sounding cost?. > Is repair on an Origami (frameless) as easy to repair in out of the > way places as the framed boat design. How is metal condition under > sprayed foam evaluated?. Am I correct in assuming that the compass in > my binoculars will no longer act appropiately?. Hand bearing compass > same problem?. I am sure I have many more areas of concern but maybe > your answers will cover them. > > Thank You > Gerad | 1876|1873|2003-07-05 18:54:06|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: computer designed origami|Brent's technique is very similar to what we do, except that we build the 3-D model on the computer while he builds a 3-D physical model. This appears to confirm that Brent discovered, as did we, that working with paper patterns is not a reliable way to build an origami boat. Rather, you need a 3-D model of the boat first, from which to produce the patterns. To us the beauty of computer models is that they can be readily changed to experiment with different ideas. Everyone seems to want a different boat, and the computer let us make changes to the model rapidly in real-time working with the customer. We can build a 1/2 dozen different models, trying new ideas, until everyone is happy with the result. As a bonus, once the model is produced, all measurements are available directly from the computer to a high degree of precision and reliability. I'll try and outline some of the design issues we faced for those that might be interested in designing their own origami boats. Brent is addressing a different segment of the origami market than we are, and there is little if any overlap in our designs. Yet we have only explored a small fraction of the possibilities open to origami, and new designs will certainly expand the appeal of the process. Imagine if you will a traditional single chine boat with the chine running fair from bow to stern. Replace the bow and stern with an origami section, but leave the middle section of the boat unchanged. Now run a batten flush along the bow and sterns through the chine endpoints in the middle section. You will find that the chine in the middle section is no longer fair to the bow and stern. Typically the chine will be inboard of the batten, and the hull will have the appearance of "knuckles" at the chine endpoints. The reason for this is that the origami bows and sterns take a different line than traditional chine bows and sterns. While this is normally hidden underwater, when the boat is heeled, or on the hard, the eye sees this as less than appealing. If the eye can see it, so can the water. We redraw the chine so that it fair with the origami bows and sterns. We use the computer to lay a batten flush along the bows and stern of the origami hull, then redraw the chine amidships so that it is now fair. The difference may be only a matter of inches, but the eye is remarkably sensitive to anything not fair and it doesn't take much turbulence to affect performance. We use the computer to 3-D model the origami boat as it will appear when finished. The chine endpoints are selected to deliver the shape we want for the intended service of the boat, based on other successful designs of the past. The 3-chine design allows us to closely model both chine and round bilge boats, opening up a wide range of successful designs from which we can choose. Our designs are typically in the 40-60 foot range, and a single chine boat in that size has large panels between the chines. Multi-chines provide additional strengthening for larger boats, reduce the size of the flat spans and reduce the appearance of flat topsides. In smaller boat sizes there is less benefit with multi-chine construction because the panels are that much smaller. Once the chine endpoints are chosen, the computer draws the origami bows and sterns, and then fairs the chines amidships to match the ends. The computer sections the resulting hull, and the traditional calculations are performed to confirm that the resulting hull matches the customer's requirements. During this process keels, rudder, decks and cabins are also added to suit. At that point the metal work is ready to be patterned. The computer equivalent of a piece of paper is laid over all the surfaces - hulls, keels, rudders, decks, cabins, etc. and unfolded into flat patterns. The computer ensures all measurements are accurate and offsets are produced to transfer the patterns to physical sheets of metal. NC cutting could be used at this point, except for inaccuracies that might result from joining smaller sheets into larger sheets. We can also produce full sized patterns as required. Every design is unique and to us there is no "best" answer. Fiberglass production boats are often shaped the way they are as a result of difficulties in removing more complex shapes from the mold. Tumblehome was common in the past, and remains in wooden and metal designs, but has all but disappeared from fiberglass construction because of the cost and complexity of split molds. I have sailed with and without a rub strake, and for cruising my personal preference is for a strong rub strake extending out beyond the rest of the hull. Having been slammed against concrete docks by wind and waves and seen the damage that results from 3rd world boats dragging down your hull with bolts and nails protruding from their gunwales, I consider this only prudent. Other people have had other experiences, and will have different answers to these problems. Yacht clubs are few and far between while cruising. Officials love to make you come alongside concrete ship's docks rather than risk getting wet in your dinghy and local fishermen routinely come alongside without bumpers to sell you fish or bum cigarettes. You can't be on deck 24 hrs a day and eventually damage will result. The rub strake serves to localize damage to an area designed to take the punishment and simplify maintenance. On smaller boats a rub rail at the sheer can suffice, but on larger boats it is not adequate. The rail is too high up to protect the topsides from the most common causes of damage. Our goal is to prevent and limit the damage rather than have to repair it. We find on a triple chine design it is straight forward to place all chines below the waterline, except the upper chine which is hidden behind the rub strake. The upper chine serves to strengthen larger boats and together with the rub strake it serves to produce the illusion of a round hull. The middle chine on our designs is in a similar position to the chine on a single chine origami boat and serves the same purpose. The lower chine provides additional hull shape and stiffening to take twin keels. Again, this was done to allow larger boats to be developed in origami. This can be seen in more detail by looking at the Darwin 60. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Darwin60/Darwin60.htm Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 www.easysoftwareinc.com greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 5:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: computer designed origami I've always began the design for origami boats by designing a hard chine hull on paper in the traditional way with the chines running the full length of the hull, then building a model . This lets me do all the calculations in the traditional way. I then take the patterns off the model, cut the bottom pattern in half, and attach the bow and stern to eliminate the chines there . This doesn't change the area of the sections below the waterline in any significant way.Computers make this job a lot easier, but computers can't match the experiences of hundreds of boats built to a given design and their evolution.Eventually there will be computer designed boats oput there with the same track record behind them , but evolution of the design will depend on their designer's open mindedness in improving them. If you look at a round bilge fibreglass boat you'll see that amidships there is very little flare or curve between the sheerline and the waterline amidships . On multichine hulls there is almost aleays a chine out of the water there.Thus multichine origami boats are usually far less asthetically pleasing than a single chine hull as on a single chine hull the chines are entirely below the waterline. Even with origami techniques, a multichine hull is a lot more work than a single chine hull and the pitfalls are greater.Having built several multichine hulls I see no real advantage to them, certainly not enough to justify the extra hassle . Rub strakes are OK on an aluminium boat, but on a steel boat they are a maintenance headache. Unless they are stainless( Much easdier to do with plasma cutters, ) or flame sprayed. It's impossible to keep paint from chipping off them.Friends with rubstrakes say there is more work trying to keep paint on them than the rest of the hull put together.Flat surfaces are much easier to maintain. The same maintenance problem would happen with chines above the waterline without the rubstrakes. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Earlier I wrote an article that mentioned the limitations of designing origami yachts in paper. This article expands on this discussion. > > Over the years we have created hundreds if not thousands of origami boats in paper. Early on we realized that paper model were not a reliable way to built full sized boats. > > When designing a boat, you want to be able to control aspects of the design such as length, beam, waterline, displacement, sheer and overall shape. The lines of the boat. These all work together to create a suitable hull. > > If you take a piece of paper, and cut darts into it, this will fold up into a shape that with some practice will resemble a boat. > > However, you will have little control over the dimensions of the boat you have created. Unless you solve the geometry behind the process, you will have to measure the results, and adjust the paper repeatedly to try and get close to your intended design. It is simple to measure the piece of paper, but the problem is that the piece of paper when folded is not the boat you originally drew. > > If you are like us you will find that adding a small amount to increased the depth of the hull will also change the beam, so then you must move the chine, which changes the sheer, and then after it is all done, you end up with a knuckle at the chine end points. So you change the dart to remove the knuckle, which changes the beam and the sheer and the depth of the hull, and you are back where you started. As you increase the number of darts to make the hull rounder amidships, the problem become increasingly more complicated. > > Our process is different. We take the line drawings, use the computer to lay in the darts fair to the hull (hard to do by eye), and then calculate the patterns to solve this shape. We work from the hull outwards to predict the pattern. Working with paper you are forced to do a great deal of trial and error, working inwards from the paper to try and guess the hull. > > Computer designed origami is a great advancement in the process of designing origami boats, as it allows for a high degree of precision and predictability in the final shape. It has allowed us a great deal of freedom to experiment, and every new design we have done has incorporated new features that we never dreamed of in paper. > > Computer designed origami is simply a continuation of the design process for all yachts. At one time yachts were designed first by building models, and then construction the lines. The limitations of this method eventually led to this process being reversed, and the lines being drawn first. Computers were then introduced to aid in drawing the lines. We have simply adapted this process to origami. > > The origami process itself has a great future for amateur and professional construction. For the amateur it allows construction of fair and smooth hulls without the high degree of skill required for traditional metal boat construction. For the professional builder it allows for one-off custom construction at a price competitive with mass production yachts. > > The origami shape itself is a great boat shape. The tortured bows and sterns provide strength and rigidly that you cannot achieve in traditional metal boat construction without significant framing. The chined midsection provides roll damping, tracking and strengthening of the structure, without the appearance of chines. Multi-chined origami allows you to create a metal boat without the "slab sided" appearance common in metal boat construction, and provides strengthening points to attach rub rails and twin keels. > > There is considerable room for improvement and advancement of the origami process through the introduction of computers. I have no doubt that somewhere out there is a budding young designer that will eventually make our designs look crude by comparison. It is only to be expected, because we have only scratched the surface of what is possible. I expect there will come a time when the majority of custom metal boats will be constructed using the origami process, and builders will wonder in amazement why it was ever done any other way. > > Is there still room for paper designs? You bet. I would not be doing origami boats today except for the magic moment that occurred when I folded up my first paper model and realized the potential of the process. If you have never folded up a model, do one before the end of this day because this is the first step. Every boat begins when you stop thinking about building, and start building. Building a paper model is the first origami boat you will build. It will not be the last. > > Once you have taken paper models as far as you can go, and want to see how this compares with computer assisted designs, please let us know and we will be happy to discuss this further. > > Greg Elliott > Easy Software Inc. > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: (604) 987-0050 > fax:(253) 550-6928 > web: www.easysoftwareinc.com > email: greg@e... > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1877|1877|2003-07-06 12:35:23|prairiemaidca|Pilot house roof|Hi All; It's a cool wet day out here on the prairie so before I head out to the boat shed I thought I'd post a Question. I've got the cabin roof on and now I'm starting the front window panels and roof of the pilot house. With the main sheeting system being attached to the pilot house roof, is it necessary to reinforce the roof to accomodate the loads from the main??? Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid)| 1878|1878|2003-07-07 22:04:04|berzerker76|Steel types for origami boats|Hi there. I am new to this group and the building style interests me greatly. I was perusing the needed components for the swain 36 and I noticed that the type of steel was not designated. Is it your average 1010? 1018? Just something I was wondering about so I could start to work up a price list for what I will need. I am referring to the outer hull skin if I did not make that clear. Thank you in advance for any advice you have on the subject Russyl Neumann| 1880|1880|2003-07-09 01:46:23|robertgm36|(no subject)|| 1881|1878|2003-07-09 15:14:47|jalborey|Re: Steel types for origami boats|Hi, Russyl Depending where are you located, steel grades receive different denominations. As far as I know, in Canada and USA the steel mostly used is normal construction grade, aka A-36. Here in Europa steel grades are known under completly different names, and at least in Spain, boating authorities require the use of one of several standarized low carbon naval steel grades. Regards, Jesús --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "berzerker76" wrote: > Hi there. I am new to this group and the building style interests me > greatly. I was perusing the needed components for the swain 36 and I > noticed that the type of steel was not designated. Is it your average > 1010? 1018? Just something I was wondering about so I could start to > work up a price list for what I will need. > > I am referring to the outer hull skin if I did not make that clear. > > Thank you in advance for any advice you have on the subject > > Russyl Neumann | 1882|1873|2003-07-09 17:30:25|brentswain38|Re: computer designed origami|People who build interiors in stock fibreglass boats tell me that there is aften a difference of three inches frome one side of the hull to the other. And they say they worry about the symetry of origami boats . The finer the cut on the ends of the chine on an origami hull is the less the hump will be. Another trick is to score halfway throug the plate in a line 6 inches or so ahead of the end of the chine before pulling the hull together to let the hull plate give a little bit there. Some hump is unavoidable. The computer doesn't take into acount the stiffness of the plate ahead of the chine, so what the computer says will be fair and what the reality of working with stiff plate will create can be quite different.The computer assumes zero resistance from the plate ahead of the chine. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Brent's technique is very similar to what we do, except that we build the 3-D model on the computer while he builds a 3-D physical model. This appears to confirm that Brent discovered, as did we, that working with paper patterns is not a reliable way to build an origami boat. Rather, you need a 3-D model of the boat first, from which to produce the patterns. > > To us the beauty of computer models is that they can be readily changed to experiment with different ideas. Everyone seems to want a different boat, and the computer let us make changes to the model rapidly in real-time working with the customer. We can build a 1/2 dozen different models, trying new ideas, until everyone is happy with the result. As a bonus, once the model is produced, all measurements are available directly from the computer to a high degree of precision and reliability. > > I'll try and outline some of the design issues we faced for those that might be interested in designing their own origami boats. Brent is addressing a different segment of the origami market than we are, and there is little if any overlap in our designs. Yet we have only explored a small fraction of the possibilities open to origami, and new designs will certainly expand the appeal of the process. > > Imagine if you will a traditional single chine boat with the chine running fair from bow to stern. Replace the bow and stern with an origami section, but leave the middle section of the boat unchanged. Now run a batten flush along the bow and sterns through the chine endpoints in the middle section. You will find that the chine in the middle section is no longer fair to the bow and stern. > > Typically the chine will be inboard of the batten, and the hull will have the appearance of "knuckles" at the chine endpoints. The reason for this is that the origami bows and sterns take a different line than traditional chine bows and sterns. While this is normally hidden underwater, when the boat is heeled, or on the hard, the eye sees this as less than appealing. If the eye can see it, so can the water. > > We redraw the chine so that it fair with the origami bows and sterns. We use the computer to lay a batten flush along the bows and stern of the origami hull, then redraw the chine amidships so that it is now fair. The difference may be only a matter of inches, but the eye is remarkably sensitive to anything not fair and it doesn't take much turbulence to affect performance. > > We use the computer to 3-D model the origami boat as it will appear when finished. The chine endpoints are selected to deliver the shape we want for the intended service of the boat, based on other successful designs of the past. The 3-chine design allows us to closely model both chine and round bilge boats, opening up a wide range of successful designs from which we can choose. > > Our designs are typically in the 40-60 foot range, and a single chine boat in that size has large panels between the chines. Multi- chines provide additional strengthening for larger boats, reduce the size of the flat spans and reduce the appearance of flat topsides. In smaller boat sizes there is less benefit with multi-chine construction because the panels are that much smaller. > > Once the chine endpoints are chosen, the computer draws the origami bows and sterns, and then fairs the chines amidships to match the ends. The computer sections the resulting hull, and the traditional calculations are performed to confirm that the resulting hull matches the customer's requirements. During this process keels, rudder, decks and cabins are also added to suit. > > At that point the metal work is ready to be patterned. The computer equivalent of a piece of paper is laid over all the surfaces - hulls, keels, rudders, decks, cabins, etc. and unfolded into flat patterns. The computer ensures all measurements are accurate and offsets are produced to transfer the patterns to physical sheets of metal. NC cutting could be used at this point, except for inaccuracies that might result from joining smaller sheets into larger sheets. We can also produce full sized patterns as required. > > Every design is unique and to us there is no "best" answer. Fiberglass production boats are often shaped the way they are as a result of difficulties in removing more complex shapes from the mold. Tumblehome was common in the past, and remains in wooden and metal designs, but has all but disappeared from fiberglass construction because of the cost and complexity of split molds. > > I have sailed with and without a rub strake, and for cruising my personal preference is for a strong rub strake extending out beyond the rest of the hull. Having been slammed against concrete docks by wind and waves and seen the damage that results from 3rd world boats dragging down your hull with bolts and nails protruding from their gunwales, I consider this only prudent. > > Other people have had other experiences, and will have different answers to these problems. Yacht clubs are few and far between while cruising. Officials love to make you come alongside concrete ship's docks rather than risk getting wet in your dinghy and local fishermen routinely come alongside without bumpers to sell you fish or bum cigarettes. > > You can't be on deck 24 hrs a day and eventually damage will result. The rub strake serves to localize damage to an area designed to take the punishment and simplify maintenance. On smaller boats a rub rail at the sheer can suffice, but on larger boats it is not adequate. The rail is too high up to protect the topsides from the most common causes of damage. Our goal is to prevent and limit the damage rather than have to repair it. > > We find on a triple chine design it is straight forward to place all chines below the waterline, except the upper chine which is hidden behind the rub strake. The upper chine serves to strengthen larger boats and together with the rub strake it serves to produce the illusion of a round hull. The middle chine on our designs is in a similar position to the chine on a single chine origami boat and serves the same purpose. The lower chine provides additional hull shape and stiffening to take twin keels. Again, this was done to allow larger boats to be developed in origami. > > This can be seen in more detail by looking at the Darwin 60. > > http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Darwin60/Darwin60.htm > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > Easy Software Inc > 1990 Casano Dr. > N. Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: +1-604-987-0050 > www.easysoftwareinc.com > greg@e... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 5:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: computer designed origami > > > I've always began the design for origami boats by designing a hard > chine hull on paper in the traditional way with the chines running > the full length of the hull, then building a model . This lets me do > all the calculations in the traditional way. I then take the patterns > off the model, cut the bottom pattern in half, and attach the bow and > stern to eliminate the chines there . This doesn't change the area of > the sections below the waterline in any significant way.Computers > make this job a lot easier, but computers can't match the experiences > of hundreds of boats built to a given design and their > evolution.Eventually there will be computer designed boats oput there > with the same track record behind them , but evolution of the design > will depend on their designer's open mindedness in improving them. > If you look at a round bilge fibreglass boat you'll see that > amidships there is very little flare or curve between the sheerline > and the waterline amidships . On multichine hulls there is almost > aleays a chine out of the water there.Thus multichine origami boats > are usually far less asthetically pleasing than a single chine hull > as on a single chine hull the chines are entirely below the waterline. > Even with origami techniques, a multichine hull is a lot more work > than a single chine hull and the pitfalls are greater.Having built > several multichine hulls I see no real advantage to them, certainly > not enough to justify the extra hassle . > Rub strakes are OK on an aluminium boat, but on a steel boat they > are a maintenance headache. Unless they are stainless( Much easdier > to do with plasma cutters, ) or flame sprayed. It's impossible to > keep paint from chipping off them.Friends with rubstrakes say there > is more work trying to keep paint on them than the rest of the hull > put together.Flat surfaces are much easier to maintain. The same > maintenance problem would happen with chines above the waterline > without the rubstrakes. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Earlier I wrote an article that mentioned the limitations of > designing origami yachts in paper. This article expands on this > discussion. > > > > Over the years we have created hundreds if not thousands of origami > boats in paper. Early on we realized that paper model were not a > reliable way to built full sized boats. > > > > When designing a boat, you want to be able to control aspects of > the design such as length, beam, waterline, displacement, sheer and > overall shape. The lines of the boat. These all work together to > create a suitable hull. > > > > If you take a piece of paper, and cut darts into it, this will fold > up into a shape that with some practice will resemble a boat. > > > > However, you will have little control over the dimensions of the > boat you have created. Unless you solve the geometry behind the > process, you will have to measure the results, and adjust the paper > repeatedly to try and get close to your intended design. It is > simple to measure the piece of paper, but the problem is that the > piece of paper when folded is not the boat you originally drew. > > > > If you are like us you will find that adding a small amount to > increased the depth of the hull will also change the beam, so then > you must move the chine, which changes the sheer, and then after it > is all done, you end up with a knuckle at the chine end points. So > you change the dart to remove the knuckle, which changes the beam and > the sheer and the depth of the hull, and you are back where you > started. As you increase the number of darts to make the hull > rounder amidships, the problem become increasingly more complicated. > > > > Our process is different. We take the line drawings, use the > computer to lay in the darts fair to the hull (hard to do by eye), > and then calculate the patterns to solve this shape. We work from > the hull outwards to predict the pattern. Working with paper you are > forced to do a great deal of trial and error, working inwards from > the paper to try and guess the hull. > > > > Computer designed origami is a great advancement in the process of > designing origami boats, as it allows for a high degree of precision > and predictability in the final shape. It has allowed us a great > deal of freedom to experiment, and every new design we have done has > incorporated new features that we never dreamed of in paper. > > > > Computer designed origami is simply a continuation of the design > process for all yachts. At one time yachts were designed first by > building models, and then construction the lines. The limitations of > this method eventually led to this process being reversed, and the > lines being drawn first. Computers were then introduced to aid in > drawing the lines. We have simply adapted this process to origami. > > > > The origami process itself has a great future for amateur and > professional construction. For the amateur it allows construction of > fair and smooth hulls without the high degree of skill required for > traditional metal boat construction. For the professional builder it > allows for one-off custom construction at a price competitive with > mass production yachts. > > > > The origami shape itself is a great boat shape. The tortured bows > and sterns provide strength and rigidly that you cannot achieve in > traditional metal boat construction without significant framing. The > chined midsection provides roll damping, tracking and strengthening > of the structure, without the appearance of chines. Multi-chined > origami allows you to create a metal boat without the "slab sided" > appearance common in metal boat construction, and provides > strengthening points to attach rub rails and twin keels. > > > > There is considerable room for improvement and advancement of the > origami process through the introduction of computers. I have no > doubt that somewhere out there is a budding young designer that will > eventually make our designs look crude by comparison. It is only to > be expected, because we have only scratched the surface of what is > possible. I expect there will come a time when the majority of > custom metal boats will be constructed using the origami process, and > builders will wonder in amazement why it was ever done any other way. > > > > Is there still room for paper designs? You bet. I would not be > doing origami boats today except for the magic moment that occurred > when I folded up my first paper model and realized the potential of > the process. If you have never folded up a model, do one before the > end of this day because this is the first step. Every boat begins > when you stop thinking about building, and start building. Building > a paper model is the first origami boat you will build. It will not > be the last. > > > > Once you have taken paper models as far as you can go, and want to > see how this compares with computer assisted designs, please let us > know and we will be happy to discuss this further. > > > > Greg Elliott > > Easy Software Inc. > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: (604) 987-0050 > > fax:(253) 550-6928 > > web: www.easysoftwareinc.com > > email: greg@e... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1883|1877|2003-07-09 18:07:46|brentswain38|Re: Pilot house roof|No reinforcing of the roof is neccessary. You'd break your sheets long before you reached a fraction the strength of the roof . Stainless plates under the padeyes will reduce maintenance, especially if they are large enough to protect the area where the blocks might chip paint off. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All; It's a cool wet day out here on the prairie so before I head > out to the boat shed I thought I'd post a Question. I've got the > cabin roof on and now I'm starting the front window panels and roof > of the pilot house. With the main sheeting system being attached to > the pilot house roof, is it necessary to reinforce the roof to > accomodate the loads from the main??? Martin and Betty (Prairie > Maid) | 1884|1878|2003-07-09 18:10:56|brentswain38|Re: Steel types for origami boats|Standard A36 mild steel is all you need. I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland where the foreman said all their attempts at specially steels were a waste of time and had no real advantage over mild steel. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "berzerker76" wrote: > Hi there. I am new to this group and the building style interests me > greatly. I was perusing the needed components for the swain 36 and I > noticed that the type of steel was not designated. Is it your average > 1010? 1018? Just something I was wondering about so I could start to > work up a price list for what I will need. > > I am referring to the outer hull skin if I did not make that clear. > > Thank you in advance for any advice you have on the subject > > Russyl Neumann | 1885|1878|2003-07-09 18:40:29|Michael Casling|Re: Steel types for origami boats|Brent wrote: Standard A36 mild steel is all you need. I was once moored off a shipyard in Auckland where the foreman said all their attempts at specially steels were a waste of time and had no real advantage over mild steel. Brent Swain Did you park next to Steel Yachts on the Tamaki River? The owner who died about two years ago had a really nice dark green 36 foot steel sailboat. BC Mike C [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1886|1886|2003-07-09 23:10:59|robertgm36|Metal Boat Gathering - Aug 9/10|A few steel boat owners , myself included , are having an informal gathering,happening,make it what you want social event Aug 9/10 in Bellingham Wash. This will take place in Fairhaven at or near Iota Metalworks . Two steel boats are under construction near here. So far three steel boats are confirmed to sail in and my 36 ft Swain will be there . One of the boats coming is Junk rigged and ready to depart for the Panama and Europe.Would be great to have some more origami boats present.There is free anchorage in this area of Bellingham Bay and free tie-up for six or so boats if you do some rafting . There is a suitable beach here for twin keelers . I may park mine there for the weekend .This is a chance to see boats being built , see boats that are built , take photos ,ask questions , share experiences generally have a good time.If you are a boat junky like me I never get tired of looking at and talking about boats . Bring your partner, kids , friends ,most of all bring your boat for everyone to look at. It is free and a potluck barbecue is planned Sat night.If you want more info ie. directions please email me direct- robertgm77@...| 1887|1887|2003-07-11 01:00:56|farmulation|too much email|Alex I edited my meb'ship on the homepage to the "don't send me any more email" mode and nothing has changed. I'm not getting to the mail, it's taking up my time just managing it and I want that time for other things. If making this change in my meb'ship status is not in your bailiwick, please suggest to whom I can appeal John McWilliams| 1888|1888|2003-07-11 07:42:07|joe_klir|Just Joined|Hi, Last two days I have spend reading all messages and looking at all posted photos.Fascinating stuff-congratulations.All this fits with my plans for my early retirement.With couple of friends we will build steel boats for serious blu water cruising,none of the gin- palace nonsence.This will be semi-commercial project,for each member we will build two boats,one we will keep the secon sell in the required stage of construction and fitting out.We are located in UK, but will be bulding hulls and interior in the Czech republic,as labour costs are lower and our associates need the work.The boats will be put into water either in france or Uk. We would gratly appreciate any input and comments and woud like hear from anybody building boat in UK or Europe Best Regards Joe| 1889|1888|2003-07-11 11:35:34|rafaccad|Re: Just Joined|I joined the group about two months ago, but this is my first post. What is the difference in displecement, both steel and aluminum, for the 40 foot Swain design? I also want to know how much tankage is possible in the bilge keel design? Regards. Rafael. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" wrote: > Hi, > Last two days I have spend reading all messages and looking at all > posted photos.Fascinating stuff-congratulations.All this fits with > my plans for my early retirement.With couple of friends we will > build steel boats for serious blu water cruising,none of the gin- > palace nonsence.This will be semi-commercial project,for each member > we will build two boats,one we will keep the secon sell in the > required stage of construction and fitting out.We are located in UK, > but will be bulding hulls and interior in the Czech republic,as > labour costs are lower and our associates need the work.The boats > will be put into water either in france or Uk. > We would gratly appreciate any input and comments and woud like > hear from anybody building boat in UK or Europe > Best Regards > Joe | 1890|1890|2003-07-13 22:42:25|Gerad Duffin|Welding course for Steel boat Fabrication|A question for the group please In order to repair and fabricate additions and to able to accomplish this by one's self it will be necessary to be proficient at welding. Our local technical school is offering the following courses. Which course would be most applicable. 1 GMAW Gas Tungsten Arc Welding 2 Gas Metal Arc Welding 3 Metal Arc, Oxy & Flux Core 4 Shielded Metal Arc & Pipe Thanks for all your help Gerad _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1891|1890|2003-07-15 16:23:40|brentswain38|Re: Welding course for Steel boat Fabrication|Number three looks like the most relevant. Tell the instructor you want to learn stick welding to build a boat. Much of your couse will involve long hours of burning rod, so you might just as well be building something useful with the time such as anchors, anchorwinch, cleats handrails , hatches , etc. Maybe tou could involve other students in your projects. Brent swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerad Duffin" wrote: > A question for the group please > > In order to repair and fabricate additions and to able to accomplish this by > one's self it will be necessary to be proficient at welding. Our local > technical school is offering the following courses. Which course would be > most applicable. > > 1 GMAW Gas Tungsten Arc Welding > 2 Gas Metal Arc Welding > 3 Metal Arc, Oxy & Flux Core > 4 Shielded Metal Arc & Pipe > > Thanks for all your help > Gerad > > _________________________________________________________________ > The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail | 1892|1892|2003-07-17 11:50:03|Joe Earsley|silas crosby plan|Hi Alex, Is there any way to get the owners of the Silas Crosby to post a sketch of their floor plan? I am curious about engine placement, engine access, engine removal, cockpit drains, aft cabin access etc. I plan on purchasing plans for the 40 foot from Brent this fall and purchasing metal in the spring. Thanks! Joe Earsley Anchorage, Alaska| 1893|1893|2003-07-18 07:34:03|sae140|Invite|If you're interested in coastal cruising/ long distance voyaging on a minimum-expenditure basis (regardless of the make or type of boat or rig), then you're cordially invited to join a new group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LowCostVoyaging Regards Colin| 1894|1873|2003-07-18 10:43:54|info@easysoftwareinc.com|computer designed origami|We have been modeling origami hulls on computers since the mid 1980's and use the latest 3-D computer design tools. I have been working with computers for 30+ years, with a degree in mathematics and computer science. Previous to my years cruising I was the senior designer on two of the largest computer networks in BC, and while sailing I wrote a number of commercial computer packages, many of which are actively sold today. Our computer models are accurate, as confirmed by the boats built to the patterns. Probably the single most challenging problem we have worked on was to fair the chine ends into the hull. To us, a hump at the chine ends detracts from the beauty and performance of the boat, which is why we have devoted so much time to getting rid of it. Increasing the number of chines in an origami hull has simplified fairing the chine ends. In section, every origami hull is round in the ends and flat amidships. This transition, from round to flat and back to round, is a challenge to keep fair. As the number of chines is increased, the closer the shape of the amidships section can come to the shape of the round ends, making it simpler to fair the chine ends. For an idea of how we have been able to control the shape of the chines: http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Pictur5.jpg Multi-chines can also expand the interior volume for the boat. The most efficient use of material for the maximum interior volume is a circle. The more chines you add, the closer the hull can come to a circle in section, affording the most interior volume for the least material. For us, the increase in useable space pays for the increased cost of multi-chine construction. This last point should not be overlooked. Multi-chine construction is not just about appearance and strengthening larger boats. Space is at a premium inside a boat, and multi-chine construction allows you to maximize this space for the minimum amount of material. For a reasonably small increase in time and welding up front, you gain space that remains with you for the life of the boat. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 www.easysoftwareinc.com greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1895|1895|2003-07-18 14:10:08|Gary|Painting|After a hull is sandblasted owners on Van Isle have been using a zinc primer before the tar goes on. A question has been raised as to whether this would create electrolysis in combination with sea water and affecting the hull. The supplier informed me this would only happen with an aluminum hull. Any added info would be appreciated. Thanks| 1896|1895|2003-07-20 13:53:56|philippe peltier|CAD/CAM ?|I was wondering which CAD/CAM tool was able to develop an origami hull ? I heard about touchcad, but are tehte other tools ? -- Phil. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 7/14/2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1897|1897|2003-07-21 18:05:52|vinnie_barberino2000|New to group|Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some time now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to see the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on wednesday nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning here.I've looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long enough here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest sheet is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. Vinnie Auckland| 1898|1898|2003-07-21 22:12:59|johan_de_bruin1|Cruising Costs|An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? (I'm not talking about managing your finances) I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? Thanks Johan| 1899|1897|2003-07-22 11:07:52|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: New to group|Plates can be butt welded to create larger sheets. Coil steel might be available, which can be cut to any length, and might be more economical. As the coil is unwound the metal can retain a "side", so flip the metal for opposite sides of the boat. Otherwise you might get a "hungry dog" effect on one side of the boat. Our larger patterns are all butt welded. Alloy normally comes in 8x20 sheets and must be butt welded to create a larger sheet. Even our 40 foot pattern in steel requires butt welding. Two large corners are cut off the 8x40 sheets and butt welded near the center to provide more beam than is possible from two 8 foot sheets. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: vinnie_barberino2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] New to group Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some time now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to see the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on wednesday nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning here.I've looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long enough here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest sheet is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. Vinnie Auckland Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1900|1898|2003-07-22 11:26:41|Joe Earsley|Re: Cruising Costs|Check out a recent article on cruising costs that was in Cruising World. Maybe 2 or 3 months back.... -----Original Message----- From: johan_de_bruin1 [mailto:johan@...] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:13 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? (I'm not talking about managing your finances) I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? Thanks Johan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1901|1901|2003-07-22 13:11:15|put_to_sea|Loops in anchor cable|Brent's book discusses the advantages of using galvanised wire rope instead of an all chain anchor rode. This makes a lot of sense to me but how do you attach a snubber to the wire rope. If I remember correctly, Brent says to put a loop in the wire. I am having a hard time picturing how this is done without weakening the wire. Anyone have any suggestions? Brent, are you out there? Best regards, Amos| 1902|1902|2003-07-22 13:12:32|Gary|Aluminum Mast|Hello: I have found a 47' aluminum mast on an old derelect sail boat that looks stucturally ok and I will replace all rigging. Question is how to restore the surface of the mast as the paint is off and pealing the length of the mast. Have thought of pressure wash, light sandblast or stainless disk. After the paint should the mast be left bare or painted and/or somehow treated. Thanks for any help... Gary| 1903|1897|2003-07-22 16:46:27|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: New to group|Greg thanks for the reply , my steel supplier came back to me yesterday arvo and told me the largest sheet we can use is 27ft so not too bad . Damn now im wondering about the 36 ft ,,,, -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Plates can be butt welded to create larger sheets. > > Coil steel might be available, which can be cut to any length, and might be more economical. As the coil is unwound the metal can retain a "side", so flip the metal for opposite sides of the boat. Otherwise you might get a "hungry dog" effect on one side of the boat. > > Our larger patterns are all butt welded. Alloy normally comes in 8x20 sheets and must be butt welded to create a larger sheet. Even our 40 foot pattern in steel requires butt welding. Two large corners are cut off the 8x40 sheets and butt welded near the center to provide more beam than is possible from two 8 foot sheets. > > Greg Elliott > Easy Software Inc. > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: (604) 987-0050 > fax:(253) 550-6928 > email: greg@e... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: vinnie_barberino2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] New to group > > > Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some time > now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , > having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to see > the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on wednesday > nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in > regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning here.I've > looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long enough > here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest sheet > is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. > Vinnie > Auckland > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1904|1898|2003-07-22 17:21:16|brentswain38|Re: Cruising Costs|The easiest way to deal with money is to learn how to get along without it.I have no car to support, no wives or ex's,no children ( that I'm aware of) I don't drink( Unless it's homemade on rare occasions) , don't smoke, no longer chase women and they don't chase me . As I'm extremely allergic to cigarette smoke, the restaurants and bars of southern lattitudes make themselves off limits to me. Friends who live the land life ask me how I'm able to go cruising. If you take the money they spend on a car, moorage( in 19 years I've never paid to tie to a dock)apartment rent, shop rent, booze, cigarettes, etc, you have a lot of money. When my niece (who had traveled through Europe and loved it ) turned 16 she was thinking about buying a car . I told her that the average cost of a car in BC was the cost of a return ticcket to Baja and $300 dollars spending money every month she said "I never thought of it that way". Few peole ever do. With the only expenses I have while cruising being food , diesel and a bit of paint , I spend less money cruising the South Pacific than I do staying home.Can some game , buy a couple of bags of brown rice ($25 for 50 lbs, )and dried bean soup mix , Dry some blackberry and salmonberry leaves for tea,blackberries, catch a few fish, and use your diesel only when absolutly neccessary, and cruising is real cheap.I just bought a gallon of oil based paint for my decks in a secondhand place for $3.Books and plans cover my expenses well ,low as they are. Allen and Sharrie Farell on the China Cloud were collecting old age pension only. They said people living ashore were practically starving on that much money ,while they were putting money in the bank. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > Check out a recent article on cruising costs that was in Cruising World. > Maybe 2 or 3 months back.... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: johan_de_bruin1 [mailto:johan@j...] > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:13 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs > > > > An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per > month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? > (I'm not talking about managing your finances) > > I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a > different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. > > So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this > technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when > you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? > > Thanks > Johan > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > click here > 150872:HM/A=1663535/R=0/SIG=11ps6rfef/*http:/www.ediets.com/start.cfm? co > de=30504&media=atkins> > > > pmail/S=:HM/A=1663535/rand=410130868> > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1906|1897|2003-07-22 23:31:53|John Jones|Re: New to group|Keep look'n around ... I did, and I found a supplier that would supply 40' and 50' lengths, 8' & 10' wide... they'll even cut it to a specified shape. "Is there a RUSSEL METALS in New Zealand?" John ---------- >From: "vinnie_barberino2000" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New to group >Date: Tue, Jul 22, 2003, 16:46 > > Greg thanks for the reply , my steel supplier came back to me > yesterday arvo and told me the largest sheet we can use is 27ft so > not too bad . Damn now im wondering about the 36 ft ,,,, > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> Plates can be butt welded to create larger sheets. >> >> Coil steel might be available, which can be cut to any length, and > might be more economical. As the coil is unwound the metal can > retain a "side", so flip the metal for opposite sides of the boat. > Otherwise you might get a "hungry dog" effect on one side of the boat. >> >> Our larger patterns are all butt welded. Alloy normally comes in > 8x20 sheets and must be butt welded to create a larger sheet. Even > our 40 foot pattern in steel requires butt welding. Two large > corners are cut off the 8x40 sheets and butt welded near the center > to provide more beam than is possible from two 8 foot sheets. >> >> Greg Elliott >> Easy Software Inc. >> 1990 Casano Drive >> North Vancouver, BC >> Canada V7J 2R2 >> tel: (604) 987-0050 >> fax:(253) 550-6928 >> email: greg@e... >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: vinnie_barberino2000 >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM >> Subject: [origamiboats] New to group >> >> >> Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some > time >> now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , >> having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to > see >> the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on > wednesday >> nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in >> regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning > here.I've >> looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long > enough >> here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest > sheet >> is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. >> Vinnie >> Auckland >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> ADVERTISEMENT >> >> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1907|1898|2003-07-22 23:42:19|John Jones|Re: Cruising Costs|Hey Brent If you wanna make yer own "BOOZE" I can send you a few recipes.... John ---------- >From: "brentswain38" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cruising Costs >Date: Tue, Jul 22, 2003, 17:21 > > The easiest way to deal with money is to learn how to get along > without it.I have no car to support, no wives or ex's,no children > ( that I'm aware of) I don't drink( Unless it's homemade on rare > occasions) , don't smoke, no longer chase women and they don't > chase me . As I'm extremely allergic to cigarette smoke, the > restaurants and bars of southern lattitudes make themselves off > limits to me. > Friends who live the land life ask me how I'm able to go cruising. > If you take the money they spend on a car, moorage( in 19 years I've > never paid to tie to a dock)apartment rent, shop rent, booze, > cigarettes, etc, you have a lot of money. > When my niece (who had traveled through Europe and loved it ) > turned 16 she was thinking about buying a car . I told her that the > average cost of a car in BC was the cost of a return ticcket to Baja > and $300 dollars spending money every month she said "I never thought > of it that way". Few peole ever do. > With the only expenses I have while cruising being food , diesel > and a bit of paint , I spend less money cruising the South Pacific > than I do staying home.Can some game , buy a couple of bags of > brown rice ($25 for 50 lbs, )and dried bean soup mix , Dry some > blackberry and salmonberry leaves for tea,blackberries, catch a few > fish, and use your diesel only when absolutly neccessary, and > cruising is real cheap.I just bought a gallon of oil based paint for > my decks in a secondhand place for $3.Books and plans cover my > expenses well ,low as they are. > Allen and Sharrie Farell on the China Cloud were collecting old age > pension only. They said people living ashore were practically > starving on that much money ,while they were putting money in the > bank. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" > wrote: >> Check out a recent article on cruising costs that was in Cruising > World. >> Maybe 2 or 3 months back.... >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: johan_de_bruin1 [mailto:johan@j...] >> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:13 PM >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs >> >> >> >> An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per >> month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? >> (I'm not talking about managing your finances) >> >> I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a >> different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. >> >> So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this >> technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when >> you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? >> >> Thanks >> Johan >> >> >> >> >> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> >> ADVERTISEMENT >> click here >> > 05 >> > 150872:HM/A=1663535/R=0/SIG=11ps6rfef/*http:/www.ediets.com/start.cfm? > co >> de=30504&media=atkins> >> >> >> M=194081.3551198.4824677.1261774/D=egrou >> pmail/S=:HM/A=1663535/rand=410130868> >> >> >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >> . >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1908|1908|2003-07-23 00:13:49|John Jones|Twin bildge keels|sssooooooo???? Do we put lead ballast in the bildge keels or leave 'em M T ? Also The plans call for "3-5X8 sheets of 3/16" for the transom.... why??| 1909|1897|2003-07-23 00:45:57|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: New to group|No Russell metals down here unfortunatly, however I have put out a few emails to suppliers down here so we see what happens, keep you posted. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Keep look'n around ... I did, and I found a supplier that would supply 40' > and 50' lengths, 8' & 10' wide... they'll even cut it to a specified shape. > "Is there a RUSSEL METALS in New Zealand?" > John > > ---------- > >From: "vinnie_barberino2000" > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New to group > >Date: Tue, Jul 22, 2003, 16:46 > > > > > Greg thanks for the reply , my steel supplier came back to me > > yesterday arvo and told me the largest sheet we can use is 27ft so > > not too bad . Damn now im wondering about the 36 ft ,,,, > > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> Plates can be butt welded to create larger sheets. > >> > >> Coil steel might be available, which can be cut to any length, and > > might be more economical. As the coil is unwound the metal can > > retain a "side", so flip the metal for opposite sides of the boat. > > Otherwise you might get a "hungry dog" effect on one side of the boat. > >> > >> Our larger patterns are all butt welded. Alloy normally comes in > > 8x20 sheets and must be butt welded to create a larger sheet. Even > > our 40 foot pattern in steel requires butt welding. Two large > > corners are cut off the 8x40 sheets and butt welded near the center > > to provide more beam than is possible from two 8 foot sheets. > >> > >> Greg Elliott > >> Easy Software Inc. > >> 1990 Casano Drive > >> North Vancouver, BC > >> Canada V7J 2R2 > >> tel: (604) 987-0050 > >> fax:(253) 550-6928 > >> email: greg@e... > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: vinnie_barberino2000 > >> To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM > >> Subject: [origamiboats] New to group > >> > >> > >> Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some > > time > >> now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , > >> having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to > > see > >> the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on > > wednesday > >> nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in > >> regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning > > here.I've > >> looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long > > enough > >> here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest > > sheet > >> is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. > >> Vinnie > >> Auckland > >> > >> > >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > >> ADVERTISEMENT > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > | 1910|1902|2003-07-23 04:29:06|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum Mast|The standard preparation for an alloy mast is usually to blast with plastic beads and then paint with LP, but it can be big $$. I would not use any abrasive/blasting/grinding to clean the mast. Alloy is too soft for that sort of treatment. I was able to lift the peeling paint on my mast with a stainless scraper and some patience. An electric "hair dryer" style heater might help soften the paint, but may prove useless because alloy conducts heat so efficiently. Care should be used not to apply too much heat. I would not use a propane torch or similar to soften paint on any alloy mast. Pure aluminum is soft, so alloy is tempered during manufacturing, which more than doubles the strength of the material. Heating the alloy above about 400F can remove this temper, and with it more than 1/2 the strength of the mast. For this reason care must be taken when welding fittings on an alloy mast. A chemical paint stripper might work, or it might mark the alloy, so test a small area first. I haven't tried this, because my mast was still in place, but it might be a low cost alternative if the mast is out of the boat. I have found that paint removers can dissolve even thick high build epoxy, so I was reluctant to use them aloft, where they might drip on the deck. It has been my experience that above water, alloy only corrodes when it is painted, or in contact with another metal. Left unpainted the mast will turn a dull gray but no further maintenance should be required. Painting is more for appearance on alloy than for protection. A mast can be anodized to keep it looking bright as an alternative to paint, but again this might be big $$. Before stepping the mast, roll a piece of flexible, high strength foam into a tube, and slide it up inside the mast. This will deaden the noise of the wires and halyards inside the mast when you roll at an anchorage. If you don't do this, the noise of wires and halyards slapping inside an alloy mast can make sleep almost impossible. Alloy is a great material for masts because it is extremely light weight for its strength. This is important for a cruising boat, as weight aloft is not to be desired in a sailboat. As a rule of thumb, every extra pound aloft must be balanced by an extra 10 pounds of ballast in the keel. For a cruising boat this means that saving just 50 pounds in weight in a mast can allow a reduction of 500 pounds in the amount of ballast required. This 550 total pounds can be replaced with stores or gear, without increasing the displacement of the boat. For example: When building your boat, if you know you are installing an alloy stick, then calculate the weight saving as compared to the original design. You may be able to safely leave 10 times this weight out of the ballast. Instead, install a water tank in the bilge to hold the same total weight of water. In our example, saving 50 pounds aloft could allow you to add enough drinking water for 2 people for an extra month (550 pounds = 250 liters @ 4 liters/day per person = 31 days for 2 people). This additional month of fresh water may make remote destinations available that might otherwise be beyond your reach, which may justify the extra cost of an alloy stick. note: The preceding was an example of what is possible. Always check with your designer before modifying the ballast in a yacht, as proper ballasting is critical to the safety of a yacht. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:12 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum Mast Hello: I have found a 47' aluminum mast on an old derelect sail boat that looks stucturally ok and I will replace all rigging. Question is how to restore the surface of the mast as the paint is off and pealing the length of the mast. Have thought of pressure wash, light sandblast or stainless disk. After the paint should the mast be left bare or painted and/or somehow treated. Thanks for any help... Gary [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1911|1898|2003-07-23 11:52:35|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Cruising Costs|The cost of cruising depends a lot on where you are cruising, your boat, your ability to maintain the boat, and of course your lifestyle. Budget 10-20% of the value of your boat annually for maintenance and depreciation. You might not spend that much each year, but if you cruise long enough, you will have to start replacing gear such as sails and engines. Breakdowns do occur and it helps a lot if you have money set aside to deal with the unexpected. Your ability to maintain the boat yourself can greatly influence these numbers. Lots of areas of the world require that you pay for moorage. If you spend your time in harbor, this can really add up. Also, when you are in harbor, you have lots of opportunity to shop and eat in restaurants. Passage making is harder on the boat than sitting at anchor. Breakdowns and wear and tear can be expensive to repair if you need to start flying in parts. One of the sure ways to break a boat is to try and make a passage to a schedule. Take your time, and move with the weather. In the tropics the "seasons" change every 6 months, so that is usually when you make passages. If you rush, or move before the weather, it almost always takes longer and costs a lot more. By far the least expensive alternative while cruising is to anchor out in some uninhabited islands, and forage for your food as much as possible. It is an interesting experience and challenge for most people, used to catching their food at the supermarket with small bits of plastic as bait. One suggestion I would make is to make a small rental property and property manager part of your cruising plans. We did this and the tenants paid off the property the first 10 years we were sailing, and from then on it has provided us an income. Even a modest income goes a long ways when you are anchored out at the islands, as the longer you stay, the more money you have in the cruising kitty when you return to harbor. If you need a new sail, you can easily calculate how many months to stay out at the islands before you will have enough money. In SE Asia for a family of 4 we budget about $1500 per month for the boat and living expenses and live quite well. This is only a small fraction of what it costs us to live in a house in Canada. I find living in "civilization" much like being on a treadmill, where you need to keep running just to stay in one place. Cruising gives you an opportunity to break this cycle. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: johan_de_bruin1 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? (I'm not talking about managing your finances) I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? Thanks Johan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1912|1898|2003-07-23 12:20:18|Michael Casling|Re: Cruising Costs|Two good answers sofar from Brent and Jeff. Exact dollar amounts are hard to come by but one American said it cost him $2000- month which is probably a reasonable number, far less than the affluent and a bit more than the thrifty. $300,000- at 8% $400,000- at 6% or $500,000- at 5% or some means of providing an income while you are sailing. Rental, royalties, writing assignments, rich inlaws etc. The classic paradox is having the $$$ but not the time, or having the time but not the $$$. I think any thrifty minded sailor has got to know how to fix a lot of stuff. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: johan_de_bruin1 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? (I'm not talking about managing your finances) I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? Thanks Johan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1913|1897|2003-07-23 12:35:01|Michael Casling|Re: New to group|Is Steel Yachts still there on the Tamaki River? You would think they would know what steel is available. If you get a bigger boat you can have more crew to yell at and a bigger bar tab. There are lots of old Farr and Birdsell 35 footers at reasonable prices. The old owner of Steel Yachts had a really nice dark green steel boat around 36 feet. It is called Marimba 2. He died a couple of years ago. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: vinnie_barberino2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM Subject: [origamiboats] New to group Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some time now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to see the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on wednesday nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning here.I've looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long enough here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest sheet is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. Vinnie Auckland Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1914|1898|2003-07-23 14:11:16|Olav Lindkjoelen|Re: Cruising Costs|Hi, I want to go cruising whenever I like to too. I do have a plan for the income part, and also partly for the boating stuff. It will not happen for a few years yet though, but I will get there. I guess you can call me ambitious, but I plan on doing it through Network Marketing. I am in a Network Marketing business that teach people to get out of debt, start their own home business and grow a residual business income. I know this sounds like the usual marketing blah blah some of you have probably heard before though, but I talk to people like you and me on our team every week who are there allready, who have been in this business for 1-2 years. They are debt free, have a full time residual income coming in every month, their income is going up even if they would choose to take a 3 month or half a year vacation. And the best thing about it is that you can do business from anywhere in the world, and probably even write off some of you cruicing expences on your taxes because you can do occational business with people as you go aswell as contact other people around the world that are on your team or elsewhere in the business. I WANT to do it, and I WILL do it within the next few years. I just refuse to give up on my dream, and I KNOW that I can make it. I have even started studying boat plans, and what is required to build a boat that can take 2 adults and 4 children cruising for a length of time. I have looked at Bruce Roberts website, and also some others. I have looked at the pictures on this groupsite, and must admit that it looks quite simple putting together a boat using the origami technique. Has any motoryachts been put together using this technique? Olav! On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 09:20:13 -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > Two good answers sofar from Brent and Jeff. Exact dollar amounts are hard > to come by but one American said it cost him $2000-month which is > probably a reasonable number, far less than the affluent and a bit more > than the thrifty. $300,000-at 8% $400,000-at 6% or $500,000-at 5% or some > means of providing an income while you are sailing. Rental, royalties, > writing assignments, rich inlaws etc. The classic paradox is having the > $$$ but not the time, or having the time but not the $$$. I think any > thrifty minded sailor has got to know how to fix a lot of stuff. Michael > Casling > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: johan_de_bruin1 To: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs > > > An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per month? > More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? (I'm not > talking about managing your finances) > > I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a different > 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. > > So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this > technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when you're > obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? > > Thanks > Johan > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1915|1897|2003-07-23 16:58:07|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: New to group|McMullen and Wing are there now I think ,I grew up beside that river just up by the older of the two bridges on the Pakuranga side.You have a good point Michael regarding good cheap boats but I want to build to my requirements.I want to change the subject here now , we have a very weak dollar so the bigger flasher overseas yachts get refits done here between November till around March .The stuff that gets thrown away makes me cry , however all to my benefit.So there is another reason why I want to build , my garage is splitting !!. I have everything from near new sails ,anchors , fittings,ropes,etc I cant believe what they throw out. Cheers Vinnie In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Is Steel Yachts still there on the Tamaki River? You would think they would know what steel is available. If you get a bigger boat you can have more crew to yell at and a bigger bar tab. There are lots of old Farr and Birdsell 35 footers at reasonable prices. The old owner of Steel Yachts had a really nice dark green steel boat around 36 feet. It is called Marimba 2. He died a couple of years ago. Michael Casling > ----- Original Message ----- > From: vinnie_barberino2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] New to group > > > Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some time > now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , > having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to see > the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on wednesday > nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in > regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning here.I've > looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long enough > here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest sheet > is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. > Vinnie > Auckland > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1916|1901|2003-07-23 17:08:21|brentswain38|Re: Loops in anchor cable|I put an eye splice every 50 feet , then shackle the 50 ft lengths together . I use stainless wire with copper nicopress sleeves , as 7X19 stainless wire is quite cheap in used boaters equipment stores . This lets me attach a rope snubber wherever there is an eye .A large float also acts as a snubber as does a litre of lead cast in an empty paint can with a 3/8th inch stainless rod loop cast in the top. 1 litre=30 lbs of lead. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > Brent's book discusses the advantages of using galvanised wire rope > instead of an all chain anchor rode. This makes a lot of sense to > me but how do you attach a snubber to the wire rope. If I remember > correctly, Brent says to put a loop in the wire. I am having a hard > time picturing how this is done without weakening the wire. Anyone > have any suggestions? Brent, are you out there? > > Best regards, > Amos | 1917|1898|2003-07-23 17:11:46|brentswain38|Re: Cruising Costs|Cruising World costs seem to be based on the assumption one is a well programmed urban consumer zombie. One needs only to read the marine catalogues they read to see where their money goes. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Earsley" wrote: > Check out a recent article on cruising costs that was in Cruising World. > Maybe 2 or 3 months back.... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: johan_de_bruin1 [mailto:johan@j...] > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 6:13 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs > > > > An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per > month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? > (I'm not talking about managing your finances) > > I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a > different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. > > So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this > technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when > you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? > > Thanks > Johan > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > click here > 150872:HM/A=1663535/R=0/SIG=11ps6rfef/*http:/www.ediets.com/start.cfm? co > de=30504&media=atkins> > > > pmail/S=:HM/A=1663535/rand=410130868> > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1918|1897|2003-07-23 17:13:25|Michael Casling|Re: New to group|Yere that's the name of the place. My brother used to have his boat parked there, used to get a lot of sludge growth on the bottom. I am from Blockhouse Bay, played for Suburbs, went to school with Dave Giddens the sailmaker. Bo Birdsell did a design for me back in 82, the boat is called Tarara. That would be rich yankees that have the excess pieces. Meanwhile up here in BC Canada there are lots of people that know about welding and steel boats. Brent has lots of ideas for doing it yourself if steel is your choice and a lot of his ideas could be applied to glass or wood boats too. I still prefer some of the glass on wood boats but the steel has a lot going for it if you have the skills for welding. Good luck, Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: vinnie_barberino2000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 1:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New to group McMullen and Wing are there now I think ,I grew up beside that river just up by the older of the two bridges on the Pakuranga side.You have a good point Michael regarding good cheap boats but I want to build to my requirements.I want to change the subject here now , we have a very weak dollar so the bigger flasher overseas yachts get refits done here between November till around March .The stuff that gets thrown away makes me cry , however all to my benefit.So there is another reason why I want to build , my garage is splitting !!. I have everything from near new sails ,anchors , fittings,ropes,etc I cant believe what they throw out. Cheers Vinnie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1919|1897|2003-07-23 17:16:23|brentswain38|Re: New to group|I have had 40 ft sheets of steel in a single length.I've never had to flip a plate and never had a hungry dog effect in the 32 steel hulls I've put together. The conic ends of an origami boat make that almost impossible there . I'm glad someone else is handling the much bigger boats in aluminium.I've no interest in doing them Brent swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Plates can be butt welded to create larger sheets. > > Coil steel might be available, which can be cut to any length, and might be more economical. As the coil is unwound the metal can retain a "side", so flip the metal for opposite sides of the boat. Otherwise you might get a "hungry dog" effect on one side of the boat. > > Our larger patterns are all butt welded. Alloy normally comes in 8x20 sheets and must be butt welded to create a larger sheet. Even our 40 foot pattern in steel requires butt welding. Two large corners are cut off the 8x40 sheets and butt welded near the center to provide more beam than is possible from two 8 foot sheets. > > Greg Elliott > Easy Software Inc. > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: (604) 987-0050 > fax:(253) 550-6928 > email: greg@e... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: vinnie_barberino2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] New to group > > > Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some time > now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , > having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to see > the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on wednesday > nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in > regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning here.I've > looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long enough > here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest sheet > is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. > Vinnie > Auckland > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1920|1895|2003-07-23 17:23:24|brentswain38|Re: Painting|I had zinc primer on my entire hull before I epoxy tarred her, and have had no serious problem in 19 years altho I've had some tiny blisters below the waterline .I don't know if thats because of the zinc or from thinner entrapment. While I wouldn't make any effort to remove the zinc, if I had a freshly sandblasted hull. I probably wouldn't use zinc below the waterline.I'd definitley use it above the waterline. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > After a hull is sandblasted owners on Van Isle have been using a zinc > primer before the tar goes on. A question has been raised as to > whether this would create electrolysis in combination with sea water > and affecting the hull. The supplier informed me this would only > happen with an aluminum hull. Any added info would be appreciated. > > Thanks | 1921|1897|2003-07-23 18:16:17|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: New to group|Yes sludge a major problem ! Twin keels makes it easy , no booking for the ramp I can beach her and scrub her bum when I want. I will keep my eye out for TARARA.I have looked at a few H28's but very slow and GRP not for me up in the islands too much coral! But they are a beautiful boat and plenty have been offshore. Cheers --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Yere that's the name of the place. My brother used to have his boat parked there, used to get a lot of sludge growth on the bottom. I am from Blockhouse Bay, played for Suburbs, went to school with Dave Giddens the sailmaker. Bo Birdsell did a design for me back in 82, the boat is called Tarara. That would be rich yankees that have the excess pieces. Meanwhile up here in BC Canada there are lots of people that know about welding and steel boats. Brent has lots of ideas for doing it yourself if steel is your choice and a lot of his ideas could be applied to glass or wood boats too. I still prefer some of the glass on wood boats but the steel has a lot going for it if you have the skills for welding. Good luck, Michael Casling > ----- Original Message ----- > From: vinnie_barberino2000 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 1:57 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: New to group > > > McMullen and Wing are there now I think ,I grew up beside that river > just up by the older of the two bridges on the Pakuranga side.You > have a good point Michael regarding good cheap boats but I want to > build to my requirements.I want to change the subject here now , we > have a very weak dollar so the bigger flasher overseas yachts get > refits done here between November till around March .The stuff that > gets thrown away makes me cry , however all to my benefit.So there is > another reason why I want to build , my garage is splitting !!. I > have everything from near new sails ,anchors , fittings,ropes,etc I > cant believe what they throw out. > Cheers Vinnie > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1922|1895|2003-07-23 18:30:38|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: Painting|I have used in the past an etching primer called PA10 on bare metal it is a vinyl based product i think , then an aluminum base high build anti corrosive primer (below the water line only).These were ofor my steel keel,on my plywood hull yacht, and it was a product from epiglass.It seems fine , bit expensive thou. Vinnie Auckland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I had zinc primer on my entire hull before I epoxy tarred her, and > have had no serious problem in 19 years altho I've had some tiny > blisters below the waterline .I don't know if thats because of the > zinc or from thinner entrapment. While I wouldn't make any effort to > remove the zinc, if I had a freshly sandblasted hull. I probably > wouldn't use zinc below the waterline.I'd definitley use it above the > waterline. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > > After a hull is sandblasted owners on Van Isle have been using a > zinc > > primer before the tar goes on. A question has been raised as to > > whether this would create electrolysis in combination with sea > water > > and affecting the hull. The supplier informed me this would only > > happen with an aluminum hull. Any added info would be appreciated. > > > > Thanks | 1923|1897|2003-07-23 19:16:02|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: New to group|Brent I will wait till I get your book then i will make a decision on size of vessel, I get concerned cause I am tall,I can get 4mm in decent sizes.I am sick of fiberglass and I hate fairing hulls and aluminum is for dingys. Vinnie Auckland --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I have had 40 ft sheets of steel in a single length.I've never had to > flip a plate and never had a hungry dog effect in the 32 steel hulls > I've put together. The conic ends of an origami boat make that almost > impossible there . > I'm glad someone else is handling the much bigger boats in > aluminium.I've no interest in doing them > Brent swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Plates can be butt welded to create larger sheets. > > > > Coil steel might be available, which can be cut to any length, and > might be more economical. As the coil is unwound the metal can > retain a "side", so flip the metal for opposite sides of the boat. > Otherwise you might get a "hungry dog" effect on one side of the boat. > > > > Our larger patterns are all butt welded. Alloy normally comes in > 8x20 sheets and must be butt welded to create a larger sheet. Even > our 40 foot pattern in steel requires butt welding. Two large > corners are cut off the 8x40 sheets and butt welded near the center > to provide more beam than is possible from two 8 foot sheets. > > > > Greg Elliott > > Easy Software Inc. > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: (604) 987-0050 > > fax:(253) 550-6928 > > email: greg@e... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: vinnie_barberino2000 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 3:05 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] New to group > > > > > > Hello all!I have been looking at building a steel boat for some > time > > now. I have a plywood 1/4 tonner which is past its use by date , > > having been thrashed around the buoys for to long and my need to > see > > the world has overpowered my desire to scream at crew on > wednesday > > nights.I think I have looked at nearly every site i can find in > > regards to a design most suitable for us and keep returning > here.I've > > looked at steel for the 31 footer , I cannot get a sheet long > enough > > here in New Zealand ,question is can I join two ? The longest > sheet > > is 20ft x 8ft (bugger).Cheers. > > Vinnie > > Auckland > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1924|1901|2003-07-24 07:22:00|Jim Phillips|Brent's book|Brent, Enough!!! There's been so many interesting ideas coming from you lately that I need to read your book. How do I go about buying it from Australia? Keep those ideas coming! Jim. http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals - New people, new possibilities! Try Yahoo! Personals, FREE for a limited period!| 1925|1898|2003-07-24 11:15:15|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Cruising Costs|The $1500 we budget monthly is CDN. $1000 USD. We generally watch the $$ (who doesn't), but we could spend a lot less in a pinch. Keep in mind that SE Asia where we cruise is quite economical. I recall reading once that the cost of beer is a good indicator of the general living costs in an area, and I have found it mostly reliable. Duty free Langkawi, where we normally re-supply, beer is about $.50 US in the local restaurants. Dinner for a family of 4, about $5-10 US in a local restaurant. However, this can quickly go up if you eat in spots that cater to tourists. Tourist Phuket, about 130 miles away by boat, is roughly double the price of Langkawi. We normally eat out a lot in SE Asia as the food prices in the local restaurants are little different than the cost of buying the food at the market. If you pick a spot that has lots of local people, it is a good bet the food will be good, and you won't get sick. SE Asia has little hawkers stalls in the streets everywhere, where a meal will cost about $.50 US per person. Everyone eats there. The only time I have really gotten sick was eating in a fancy restaurant that catered to tourists. If there are no local people eating in the restaurant, ask yourself why not. It doesn't matter to a tourist restaurant if you get sick, as there are new tourists every day. A restaurant that caters to local people will quickly go out of business if the local people start getting sick, so they are generally much safer places in which to eat. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: info@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs The cost of cruising depends a lot on where you are cruising, your boat, your ability to maintain the boat, and of course your lifestyle. Budget 10-20% of the value of your boat annually for maintenance and depreciation. You might not spend that much each year, but if you cruise long enough, you will have to start replacing gear such as sails and engines. Breakdowns do occur and it helps a lot if you have money set aside to deal with the unexpected. Your ability to maintain the boat yourself can greatly influence these numbers. Lots of areas of the world require that you pay for moorage. If you spend your time in harbor, this can really add up. Also, when you are in harbor, you have lots of opportunity to shop and eat in restaurants. Passage making is harder on the boat than sitting at anchor. Breakdowns and wear and tear can be expensive to repair if you need to start flying in parts. One of the sure ways to break a boat is to try and make a passage to a schedule. Take your time, and move with the weather. In the tropics the "seasons" change every 6 months, so that is usually when you make passages. If you rush, or move before the weather, it almost always takes longer and costs a lot more. By far the least expensive alternative while cruising is to anchor out in some uninhabited islands, and forage for your food as much as possible. It is an interesting experience and challenge for most people, used to catching their food at the supermarket with small bits of plastic as bait. One suggestion I would make is to make a small rental property and property manager part of your cruising plans. We did this and the tenants paid off the property the first 10 years we were sailing, and from then on it has provided us an income. Even a modest income goes a long ways when you are anchored out at the islands, as the longer you stay, the more money you have in the cruising kitty when you return to harbor. If you need a new sail, you can easily calculate how many months to stay out at the islands before you will have enough money. In SE Asia for a family of 4 we budget about $1500 per month for the boat and living expenses and live quite well. This is only a small fraction of what it costs us to live in a house in Canada. I find living in "civilization" much like being on a treadmill, where you need to keep running just to stay in one place. Cruising gives you an opportunity to break this cycle. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: johan_de_bruin1 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 7:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Cruising Costs An open question to anybody: How much does it take to cruise per month? More importantly, where do some folks get their money from? (I'm not talking about managing your finances) I know the questions are very wide, and every boat has a different 'agenda', and likewise do their owners, lifestyle et al. So, if I may direct a question at Brent, as the "father" of this technique we all seem to endorse: How do you fund yourself when you're obviously sailing for 6 months at a time? Thanks Johan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1926|1926|2003-07-24 12:20:54|prairiemaidca|Weight??|Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid)| 1927|1926|2003-07-24 13:01:41|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Weight??|Funny thing about that. A boat displaces an amount of water that weighs exactly the same as the boat. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "prairiemaidca" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Weight?? > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > Betty (Prairie Maid) > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1928|1926|2003-07-24 13:56:47|put_to_sea|Re: Weight??|Maybe the weight Martin and Betty are wondering about is something I was also thinking about. The weight I was interested in was the hull weight with no interior, water, fuel, or other stores. This is just so I have a rough idea how much stuff I can load in without the boat turning into a real slug. Along those same lines, what would be the maximimum loaded displacement (weight) one should shoot for? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Funny thing about that. A boat displaces an amount of water that weighs > exactly the same as the boat. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "prairiemaidca" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Weight?? > > > > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > > Betty (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > | 1929|1926|2003-07-24 15:46:35|nelstomlinson|antisieze|When assembling engines, usw, we usually use antisieze to make sure that things will come apart. A quick google shows: http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol1000 Food grade, specifically mentions stainless steel. http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2000 A ``Premium copper-graphite'' blend. That sounds scary, when you think about electrolysis. http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2600 This one has nickel and graphite. Might be better for stainless in salt water than the copper-graphite? Then there's http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2500 which is metal free. The problem with any of these is that if they get washed out by salt water, you're right back where you started, modulo any electrolysis they might have caused. You should be able to find several varieties of antisieze at any auto parts store. I would think that something like brick grease (or anhydrous lanolin?) with lots of zinc powder stirred in, would be pretty good. Even if (or maybe when) the grease gets washed away, the zinc might help. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > Betty (Prairie Maid) | 1930|1926|2003-07-24 16:31:29|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: antisieze|I have seen a chromium based product before in a car parts store here . I figure stainless is a high chromium metal so no allergic reaction should form.It was definetly an antisieze type product.Apart from that I didnt research it. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nelstomlinson" wrote: > When assembling engines, usw, we usually use antisieze to make sure > that things will come apart. A quick google shows: > > http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol1000 Food grade, > specifically mentions stainless steel. > > http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2000 A ``Premium > copper-graphite'' blend. That sounds scary, when you think about > electrolysis. > > http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2600 This one has nickel > and graphite. Might be better for stainless in salt water than the > copper-graphite? > > Then there's http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2500 which is > metal free. > > The problem with any of these is that if they get washed out by salt > water, you're right back where you started, modulo any electrolysis > they might have caused. > > You should be able to find several varieties of antisieze at any auto > parts store. > > I would think that something like brick grease (or anhydrous lanolin?) > with lots of zinc powder stirred in, would be pretty good. Even if > (or maybe when) the grease gets washed away, the zinc might help. > > Nels > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > wrote: > > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > > Betty (Prairie Maid) | 1931|1926|2003-07-24 18:56:42|edward_stoneuk|Re: antisieze|If the ss threads are pipe threads then PTFE pipe thread tape should do the trick. Might do the trick with other threads as well. You could google for a technical reply from one of the anti-seize paste people such as Loctite and ask for the best product for your application. The other point is that a tub of the stuff might last you several lifetimes so a free sample or asking at the maintenance department at a nearby food factory, abbatoir or similar might be needed. Regards, Ted| 1932|1926|2003-07-24 19:30:37|Richard Till|Re: antisieze|What about Tefgel, rt >From: "nelstomlinson" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] antisieze >Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:46:34 -0000 > >When assembling engines, usw, we usually use antisieze to make sure >that things will come apart. A quick google shows: > >http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol1000 Food grade, >specifically mentions stainless steel. > >http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2000 A ``Premium >copper-graphite'' blend. That sounds scary, when you think about >electrolysis. > >http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2600 This one has nickel >and graphite. Might be better for stainless in salt water than the >copper-graphite? > >Then there's http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2500 which is >metal free. > >The problem with any of these is that if they get washed out by salt >water, you're right back where you started, modulo any electrolysis >they might have caused. > >You should be able to find several varieties of antisieze at any auto >parts store. > >I would think that something like brick grease (or anhydrous lanolin?) > with lots of zinc powder stirred in, would be pretty good. Even if >(or maybe when) the grease gets washed away, the zinc might help. > >Nels > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" >wrote: > > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > > Betty (Prairie Maid) > _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail| 1933|1926|2003-07-24 21:18:33|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Weight??|Stainless steel fasteners are a real problem because of galling. The metal welds to itself so easily it is unbelievable. I build machinery for the greenhouse using aluminum and stainless fasteners. The rule is NEVER put stainless together without a lubricant, not even finger tight. I can't tell you how many times we've cut finger tight bolts off that seized. That said, my preferred lubricant is blue Locktite thread locker. I have never had a seized thread with Loctite, and they don't vibrate loose either. In the presence of moisture Loctite seals the threads and keeps the water out . No crevice corrosion and much reduced electrolysis in aluminum. We have had real problems with stainless pipe threads weeping a drip every few minutes using all kinds of Teflon tape and pipe dope. Even had a seized 2" pipe thread put on hand tight dry. The threads were all buggered when we go it apart, and the device with the threads cost $400. Blue Loctite sealed the damaged threads with no leaks, and we could still take it apart. Note that Red Loctite requires 400 degrees F to break it loose. Also don't use Loctite on plastic threads. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "prairiemaidca" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Weight?? > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > Betty (Prairie Maid) > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1934|1926|2003-07-24 23:19:08|keith green|Re: antisieze|The J.Walther Co. sells some stuff they call "Rock and Roll". It's an anti-seize high-temp compund that is ceramic-based. I use it when shrinking together gear-reducer components and for threads that require anti-seize. It is not water-soluble. keith ----- Original Message ----- From: nelstomlinson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] antisieze When assembling engines, usw, we usually use antisieze to make sure that things will come apart. A quick google shows: http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol1000 Food grade, specifically mentions stainless steel. http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2000 A ``Premium copper-graphite'' blend. That sounds scary, when you think about electrolysis. http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2600 This one has nickel and graphite. Might be better for stainless in salt water than the copper-graphite? Then there's http://www.mrosolutions.com/piantsz.htm#sol2500 which is metal free. The problem with any of these is that if they get washed out by salt water, you're right back where you started, modulo any electrolysis they might have caused. You should be able to find several varieties of antisieze at any auto parts store. I would think that something like brick grease (or anhydrous lanolin?) with lots of zinc powder stirred in, would be pretty good. Even if (or maybe when) the grease gets washed away, the zinc might help. Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > Betty (Prairie Maid) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1935|1926|2003-07-25 05:45:38|Phillip Allen|Re: Weight??|scanned your post in a hurry...stainless "bearing" surfaces must be of dissimilar stainless not to gall, which brings up the possibility of galvanic corrosion...any more thoughts? "Gary H. Lucas" wrote:Stainless steel fasteners are a real problem because of galling. The metal welds to itself so easily it is unbelievable. I build machinery for the greenhouse using aluminum and stainless fasteners. The rule is NEVER put stainless together without a lubricant, not even finger tight. I can't tell you how many times we've cut finger tight bolts off that seized. That said, my preferred lubricant is blue Locktite thread locker. I have never had a seized thread with Loctite, and they don't vibrate loose either. In the presence of moisture Loctite seals the threads and keeps the water out . No crevice corrosion and much reduced electrolysis in aluminum. We have had real problems with stainless pipe threads weeping a drip every few minutes using all kinds of Teflon tape and pipe dope. Even had a seized 2" pipe thread put on hand tight dry. The threads were all buggered when we go it apart, and the device with the threads cost $400. Blue Loctite sealed the damaged threads with no leaks, and we could still take it apart. Note that Red Loctite requires 400 degrees F to break it loose. Also don't use Loctite on plastic threads. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "prairiemaidca" To: Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Weight?? > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > Betty (Prairie Maid) > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1936|1926|2003-07-25 08:12:10|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Weight??|Bearing surfaces of any material need to be dissimilar to work well. Years ago I worked at a company that used gear pumps to pump molten polystyrene. The bearings were lubed by the polystyrene. The shafts were common shafting grade steel, and the bearings were outer races from roller bearings, very hard. The worked great as long as the weep holes were putting out a nice white strand of polystyrene. When the strand started turning dark you knew you had contamination in the bearing. When it turned black they usually seized a couple of hours later. I think if you want stainless on stainless bushings you'd want say a 316 SS shaft and 440 SS (hard) bushing. I don't think that the two grades are far apart enough on the galvanic scale to really be a big problem that way, especially if kept reasonably well lubed. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phillip Allen" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 5:45 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Weight?? > scanned your post in a hurry...stainless "bearing" surfaces must be of dissimilar stainless not to gall, which brings up the possibility of galvanic corrosion...any more thoughts? > > "Gary H. Lucas" wrote:Stainless steel fasteners are a real problem because of galling. The metal > welds to itself so easily it is unbelievable. I build machinery for the > greenhouse using aluminum and stainless fasteners. The rule is NEVER put > stainless together without a lubricant, not even finger tight. I can't tell > you how many times we've cut finger tight bolts off that seized. That said, > my preferred lubricant is blue Locktite thread locker. I have never had a > seized thread with Loctite, and they don't vibrate loose either. In the > presence of moisture Loctite seals the threads and keeps the water out . No > crevice corrosion and much reduced electrolysis in aluminum. We have had > real problems with stainless pipe threads weeping a drip every few minutes > using all kinds of Teflon tape and pipe dope. Even had a seized 2" pipe > thread put on hand tight dry. The threads were all buggered when we go it > apart, and the device with the threads cost $400. Blue Loctite sealed the > damaged threads with no leaks, and we could still take it apart. Note that > Red Loctite requires 400 degrees F to break it loose. Also don't use > Loctite on plastic threads. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "prairiemaidca" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Weight?? > > > > Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often > > by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here > > on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. > > weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the > > displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the > > amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has > > actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the > > water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to > > contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they > > sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel > > visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our > > place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint > > plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. > > Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two > > pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use > > to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and > > Betty (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1937|1926|2003-07-25 11:18:33|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Weight??|When floating on its waterline, the weight of a boat will (approximately) equal its designed displacement. The displacement for a yacht is calculated from the shape of the hull, not by actually weighing the boat. The designer adds up all the weights of the materials to build the boat, plus supplies and stores for the boat's intended service, and adjust the shape of the hull so that the displacement and weights are equal. Normally, a boat would be designed to float above its waterlines when empty (weigh less than its designed displacement) and be on its lines when built as designed and loaded for its intended service. A 36 foot cruising yacht in steel might average around 10 tons (22400 lbs loaded), but this can vary widely. The boat should weigh less than this when empty, to allow for supplies and stores. Building a boat stronger (heavier) than it is designed with the idea that this will make it safer can reduce the amount of stores and supplies the boat can carry and lead to overloading, reducing the overall safety of the boat. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... ----- Original Message ----- From: prairiemaidca To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Weight?? Hi All: This question is probably not one that is asked very often by those lucky enough to be building close to the salt but out here on the prairie's It's something of intrest to me. What is the aprox. weight of the average 36ft pilot house, fin keel. Not the displacement. I can go back and start calculating based on the amount of steel that I've used etc. but I was wondering if anyone has actually weighed one while it was empty any waiting to go to the water. On another note when the big paint debate was on I decided to contact the Wasser co. and get their lit. on the products that they sell. Well not only did I recieve all the info. but I had a personel visit from the Van. based Salesman(an avid boater) out here to our place to see the boat project and give his (Co.) ideas for a paint plan. All this at my invitaion and with no pressure to buy anything. Very interesting products. One other question. When joining two pieces of threaded SS steel together what is the best product to use to stop the threads from becoming permenantly joined? Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1938|1938|2003-07-25 11:59:27|prairiemaidca|Weight|Hi All: I guess I stated the weight thing wrong. What we would like to have an Idea of is the weight of the empty boat, no fuel,water,supplies, anchor,spare paint etc.. We will need to have a rough weight for when it is trailered to the sea.. As a trucker it's what we refer to as the weight of the rig verses the Gross weight. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid)..| 1939|1939|2003-07-25 12:30:49|Glen|looking for a book|Does anyone have a copy of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING by ALARD COLE??? Looking to purchase one but I can't seem to find one anywhere.| 1940|1938|2003-07-25 13:39:52|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Weight|If you use the design displacement you can't go wrong. That would be the maximum weight, loaded that the boat was designed for. The carrying capacity will never be a huge percentage of the displacement, so the actual weight won't be a lot less. If the truck can carry the design displacement you are good to go. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "prairiemaidca" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Weight > Hi All: I guess I stated the weight thing wrong. What we would like > to have an Idea of is the weight of the empty boat, no > fuel,water,supplies, anchor,spare paint etc.. We will need to have a > rough weight for when it is trailered to the sea.. As a trucker it's > what we refer to as the weight of the rig verses the Gross weight. > Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid).. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1941|1939|2003-07-25 13:41:33|Ted Stone|Re: looking for a book|Glen, You can get Heavy Weather Sailing ~Peter Bruce, Adlard Coles Adlard Coles Nautical at Amazon Books Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1942|1938|2003-07-25 17:18:02|Michael Casling|Re: Weight|Your request for the weight of the boat made perfect sense to me. You want to know how much it will way so you can arrange for transportation because you are inland and the name ( Prairie Maid ) provides a solid clue. It does sound as if you are going to have to calculate all the materials to date or actually weigh it at the weigh scale. To save someone reminding me I realise that the weight of the trailer and tow vehicle should be known in advance. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: prairiemaidca To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 8:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Weight Hi All: I guess I stated the weight thing wrong. What we would like to have an Idea of is the weight of the empty boat, no fuel,water,supplies, anchor,spare paint etc.. We will need to have a rough weight for when it is trailered to the sea.. As a trucker it's what we refer to as the weight of the rig verses the Gross weight. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid).. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1943|1943|2003-07-25 17:53:34|vinnie_barberino2000|26 footer|Hello all, Can anyone tell me a little bit about the 26ft'r , abilitys,disabilitys,,material list, Headroom? Much appreiciated if you can. Vinnie Auckland| 1944|1944|2003-07-25 20:57:59|vinnie_barberino2000|Anchor light|http://h28.org.nz/Technical/Anchor_light.htm Also some other good ideas on the site.| 1945|1945|2003-07-26 00:00:29|vinnie_barberino2000|Antisieze |http://www.users.bigpond.com/jim.chambers/Tef_gel.htm Just what the doctor ordered.| 1946|1898|2003-07-26 11:16:56|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Cruising Costs|Earlier I mentioned foraging as a means of reducing cruising costs. I'd like to expand on that topic. Crusing yachts do not have a great reputation in some areas. Cruisers are usually not permitted to work in foreign countries, or if they do work, it is illegal. As a result, cruising yachts can run short of cash, and foraging becomes a necessity. Very few areas of the world are truly unihabited. As a result, foraging on land can quickly become theft. Many of the stories of theft from yachts we have heard over the years stem not from local people, but from yachtsmen stealing from other yacths. Most tropical regions are heavily covered in jungles, and very little of what we would recognize as food grows readily near the floor of the jungle. Fruit trees and root crops, when you find them, are as often as not in clearings that have been cleared and planted by subsistence farmers. When you take fruit from trees on an "unihabited" island you may well be stealing food some some of the poorest people on earth. Even palm trees, in many areas were planted as plantations at one time, and are still "harvested" from time to time by the local people. More than a few cruisers, running short of supplies, have cut down palm trees to harvest the "heat of palm", killing the tree that has taken years to grow in the process. If you are planning to cruise to a tropical islands and "live off the land" you should reconsider. Fishing around the islands can be often be very productive, but can require fuel. Coconuts are relatively common, and eaten with fish can provide a balanced diet, but they do require quite a bit of work to harvest and after a few months of fish and coconuts you may find meals less than interesting. Gardening in the tropics is usually not productive for a cruiser because of the lead time, and predation by insects. Don't get me wrong - people do garden with success, just that they are also very dedicated. A mix of staples such as 100 lbs of rice, 100 lbs of flour, 100 lbs of sugar and 100 lbs of beans would take you months and months of hard work to grow in a tropical garden, yet can be purchased for very few dollars in most stores worldwide, and can form the backbone of your cruising diet. Supplemented with fishing, coconuts, and a supply of canned food, with greens readily available by sprouting the beans, cooking on a BBQ with driftwood gathered from the beach, you can live very inexpensively in the islands. Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc. 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: (604) 987-0050 fax:(253) 550-6928 email: greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1947|1947|2003-07-26 12:41:19|rhko|Re: Digest Number 541, looking for a book|Go to http://www.addall.com/ and search for your book by title or author. Wide availability and low prices, often lower than same books on ebay. Works for me. > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:30:46 -0000 > From: "Glen" > Subject: looking for a book > > Does anyone have a copy of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING by ALARD COLE??? > Looking to purchase one but I can't seem to find one anywhere. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ | 1948|1948|2003-07-27 17:41:33|dylanwinter2001|UK builders|I have just completed a stitch and glue 18 footer not want to build something steel, small and capable of crossing atlantic say spray 22/27 -- tom thumb 22 or 24 traying to track down a UK home builder who can tell me why I should think carefully before starting out on this particular path dylan winter www.dylanwinter.co.uk| 1949|1948|2003-07-28 12:58:09|pvanderwaart|Re: UK builders|> Now want to build something steel, small and capable of crossing > atlantic See the Spark 24 at www.tantonyachts.com. (Look in catalog and drawings.) Not an origami design, but one of the most likely-looking small steel yachts. Tanton would be happy to advise about seaworthiness for a transatlatic passage. Peter| 1950|1948|2003-07-28 13:09:13|John Jones|Re: UK builders|TWIN KEELS!!!! Do they deserve added ballast or not? If so how much lead do I need?, If not may they be fuel tanks? Anyone? John ---------- >From: "pvanderwaart" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: UK builders >Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2003, 12:58 > >> Now want to build something steel, small and capable of crossing >> atlantic > > See the Spark 24 at www.tantonyachts.com. (Look in catalog and > drawings.) Not an origami design, but one of the most likely-looking > small steel yachts. Tanton would be happy to advise about > seaworthiness for a transatlatic passage. > > Peter > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1951|1908|2003-07-28 13:37:24|edward_stoneuk|Re: Twin bildge keels|John, Brent, in his message No 1018 Aug 29 2002, said that you put the same amount of lead ballast in a bilge keeler as in a single keeler. In the 36' that is 4500# total or 2250# in each keel. I don't know about the transom. In my 36' plans it is cut from the main hull sheets. If you type 'bilge keels' in the search window at the top of this page there is quite a lot there. Regards, Ted| 1952|1948|2003-07-28 14:23:42|edward_stoneuk|Re: UK builders|Dylan, There are several issues: 1 Some regard steel boats of that size as being too small to be satisfactory in that the weight of the hull material is heavy in relation to the cruising displacement leaving less for the crew and their requirements, which of course would be quite a lot in an Atlantic crossing. 2 I recently asked a friend, who had returned last year from a solo Atlantic round trip in a 26' glass fibre boat if he would change anything. "Get a bigger boat" he said. It was not so much carrying capacity but that short sailing boats go slower and at times, bobbing up and down on the briny, he wanted a faster boat. 3 Bruce Roberts boats, like the ones you mentioned, are not origami boats as such and so you might get more views about them on the Metal Boat Society's Forum. www.metalboatsociety.com Several members are building or have built his boats and have expressed views on them there. I am building a 36' Brent Swain design in the UK. Regards, Ted| 1953|1948|2003-07-28 15:46:00|dylan winter 07712 186 250|Re: UK builders|Ted, where are you I am near Oxford dylan -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: 28 July 2003 19:23 Subject: [origamiboats] Re: UK builders Dylan, There are several issues: 1 Some regard steel boats of that size as being too small to be satisfactory in that the weight of the hull material is heavy in relation to the cruising displacement leaving less for the crew and their requirements, which of course would be quite a lot in an Atlantic crossing. 2 I recently asked a friend, who had returned last year from a solo Atlantic round trip in a 26' glass fibre boat if he would change anything. "Get a bigger boat" he said. It was not so much carrying capacity but that short sailing boats go slower and at times, bobbing up and down on the briny, he wanted a faster boat. 3 Bruce Roberts boats, like the ones you mentioned, are not origami boats as such and so you might get more views about them on the Metal Boat Society's Forum. www.metalboatsociety.com Several members are building or have built his boats and have expressed views on them there. I am building a 36' Brent Swain design in the UK. Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1954|1954|2003-07-28 22:10:14|Don Taylor|Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality|Inspired by a comment by Brent that he could buy scrap stainless for $1.50 (US or Cdn?) per pound I visited our local scrap yard and was offered stainless for Cdn$2.00 per pound. Close enough. But, how to tell if this ss is worth having? A piece of pipe was marked as 304L, so I bought that. The rest was anonymous. Is there any way to judge what it is? Should I care for deck detailing? Thanks, Don.| 1955|1908|2003-07-28 23:47:07|John Jones|Re: Twin bildge keels|Thank's kindly John ---------- >From: "edward_stoneuk" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Twin bildge keels >Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2003, 13:37 > > John, > > Brent, in his message No 1018 Aug 29 2002, said that you put the same > amount of lead ballast in a bilge keeler as in a single keeler. In > the 36' that is 4500# total or 2250# in each keel. > > I don't know about the transom. In my 36' plans it is cut from the > main hull sheets. > > If you type 'bilge keels' in the search window at the top of this > page there is quite a lot there. > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1956|1954|2003-07-29 00:00:14|John Jones|Re: Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality|Are you "Nelvana" Don Taylor?, from west Toronto?????? ---------- >From: "Don Taylor" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality >Date: Mon, Jul 28, 2003, 22:10 > > Inspired by a comment by Brent that he could buy scrap stainless for > $1.50 (US or Cdn?) per pound I visited our local scrap yard and was > offered stainless for Cdn$2.00 per pound. Close enough. > > But, how to tell if this ss is worth having? A piece of pipe was > marked as 304L, so I bought that. The rest was anonymous. > > Is there any way to judge what it is? Should I care for deck > detailing? > > > Thanks, > > Don. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1957|1954|2003-07-29 10:25:07|Gord Schnell|Re: Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality|I have been buying SS from J.G. Enterprises in Delta (Vancouver) for $1 a pound. 316 is much preferred over 304 for its anti-rusting characteristics. 304 can rust badly in some saltwater conditions. Gord Don Taylor wrote: > > Inspired by a comment by Brent that he could buy scrap > stainless for > $1.50 (US or Cdn?) per pound I visited our local scrap > yard and was > offered stainless for Cdn$2.00 per pound. Close enough. > > But, how to tell if this ss is worth having? A piece of > pipe was > marked as 304L, so I bought that. The rest was anonymous. > > Is there any way to judge what it is? Should I care for > deck > detailing? > > Thanks, > > Don. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1958|1958|2003-07-29 11:24:41|...|[origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge qu|Don, when you buy SS take a magnet with you,with this you can sort out the semi stainless which is magnetic and it will rust,this might be ok for some internal fittings engine parts etc. The best SS is the non magnetic material higher nickel content, if there are no markings on it use the magnet. That what I do, funny thing scrap yards seem much the same all over the world. Geoff Cheshire England But, how to tell if this ss is worth having? A piece of pipe was marked as 304L, so I bought that. The rest was anonymous. Is there any way to judge what it is? Should I care for deck detailing? Thanks, Don. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/| 1959|1958|2003-07-29 15:08:03|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: [origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judg|A small pencil magnet that you can carry at all times in your pocket or on your key ring is a handy tool when boat building or cruising. At the scrap yard, chandlery, or the hardware store it provides a quick check of "stainless" parts. 300 series SS is not magnetic, and is what you are looking for. The food industry uses 400 series (magnetic) SS quite commonly, so it is possible/likely that some of the SS you find in a scrap yard may not be suitable for marine use. In a pinch I once used some 400 series 6 mm SS bolts to fasten a part inside, under the companionway. The heads fell off within a few years, the bolts having corroded through out of sight within the wooden bulkhead. I suspect salt water occasionally leaking down the companionway was the culprit. Outwardly the bolts showed no corrosion until the day they failed. I have a diving knife made from 400 stainless. It takes a very good edge, but must be washed in fresh after every dive, or it corrodes badly. The same with SS cutlery. To save water we wash in salt whenever possible. SS knives corrode quickly on the sharpened edge when washed in salt water, and I have had SS knives break apart under the wooden handle over time when repeatedly washed in salt. For an explanation of 304L, and other grades of SS, you might visit this site: http://www.spiusa.com/Ref001/austenitic.html g ----- Original Message ----- From: ... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] [origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality Don, when you buy SS take a magnet with you,with this you can sort out the semi stainless which is magnetic and it will rust,this might be ok for some internal fittings engine parts etc. The best SS is the non magnetic material higher nickel content, if there are no markings on it use the magnet. That what I do, funny thing scrap yards seem much the same all over the world. Geoff Cheshire England But, how to tell if this ss is worth having? A piece of pipe was marked as 304L, so I bought that. The rest was anonymous. Is there any way to judge what it is? Should I care for deck detailing? Thanks, Don. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1960|1960|2003-07-29 15:44:49|joe_klir|Bullshit|Hi All, Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group for couple of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff here,however,lately the discussion is moving towards unproductive academic bullshit.We should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of steel boat construction,cost engineering to bring the cost down,improving safety and creating real value for serious cruising community. We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the market very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and design.We are planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion and interior fitting out. Comments are invited on the following subjects (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads (2)multi-fuel heating (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use generators (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and wind,floating wave generators (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated Joe| 1961|1958|2003-07-29 15:48:04|richytill|Re: [origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judg|It might be worth noting that in the 300 series ss, 304 is around 15% stronger than 316. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A small pencil magnet that you can carry at all times in your pocket or on your key ring is a handy tool when boat building or cruising. At the scrap yard, chandlery, or the hardware store it provides a quick check of "stainless" parts. > > 300 series SS is not magnetic, and is what you are looking for. The food industry uses 400 series (magnetic) SS quite commonly, so it is possible/likely that some of the SS you find in a scrap yard may not be suitable for marine use. > > In a pinch I once used some 400 series 6 mm SS bolts to fasten a part inside, under the companionway. The heads fell off within a few years, the bolts having corroded through out of sight within the wooden bulkhead. I suspect salt water occasionally leaking down the companionway was the culprit. Outwardly the bolts showed no corrosion until the day they failed. > > I have a diving knife made from 400 stainless. It takes a very good edge, but must be washed in fresh after every dive, or it corrodes badly. The same with SS cutlery. To save water we wash in salt whenever possible. SS knives corrode quickly on the sharpened edge when washed in salt water, and I have had SS knives break apart under the wooden handle over time when repeatedly washed in salt. > > For an explanation of 304L, and other grades of SS, you might visit this site: > > http://www.spiusa.com/Ref001/austenitic.html > > g > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:30 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] [origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality > > > Don, > when you buy SS take a magnet with you,with this you can sort out the semi > stainless which is magnetic and it will rust,this might be ok for some > internal fittings engine parts etc. > The best SS is the non magnetic material higher nickel content, if there are > no markings on it use the magnet. > That what I do, funny thing scrap yards seem much the same all over the > world. > Geoff > Cheshire England > > > But, how to tell if this ss is worth having? A piece of pipe was > marked as 304L, so I bought that. The rest was anonymous. > > Is there any way to judge what it is? Should I care for deck > detailing? > > > Thanks, > > Don. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1962|1960|2003-07-29 15:55:36|richytill|Re: Bullshit|Joe, I have just tested a VW rabbit engine that I hooked up to a Borg Warner Velvet drive in a 36'. It took a bit of time and there are a few adjustments to make. I have limmited time but less money so a new engine was out of the question--as usual I cant resist experimenting. So, what specifically are you planning for the Peugot? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" wrote: > Hi All, > Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group for couple > of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff here,however,lately the > discussion is moving towards unproductive academic bullshit.We > should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of steel boat > construction,cost engineering to bring the cost down,improving safety > and creating real value for serious cruising community. > We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the market > very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and design.We are > planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion and interior > fitting out. > Comments are invited on the following subjects > (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads > (2)multi-fuel heating > (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) > (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use generators > (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and wind,floating wave > generators > (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out > Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated > Joe | 1963|1960|2003-07-29 16:13:58|joe klir|Re: Bullshit|HI,We are planning to marinise peugeot diesel engines from 205 and 405 cars for ur own projects and offer feww units to interested parties at very reasonable costs JK richytill wrote: Joe, I have just tested a VW rabbit engine that I hooked up to a Borg Warner Velvet drive in a 36'. It took a bit of time and there are a few adjustments to make. I have limmited time but less money so a new engine was out of the question--as usual I cant resist experimenting. So, what specifically are you planning for the Peugot? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" wrote: > Hi All, > Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group for couple > of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff here,however,lately the > discussion is moving towards unproductive academic bullshit.We > should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of steel boat > construction,cost engineering to bring the cost down,improving safety > and creating real value for serious cruising community. > We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the market > very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and design.We are > planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion and interior > fitting out. > Comments are invited on the following subjects > (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads > (2)multi-fuel heating > (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) > (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use generators > (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and wind,floating wave > generators > (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out > Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated > Joe Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1964|1958|2003-07-29 21:55:47|keith green|Re: [origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judg|I've had to machine some of this stuff. There are at least 4 grades of 304. The common ones you find in the scrapyards and such are the plain 304 and 304L. The 'L' means "low carbon". The plain 304 is harder, stronger and work-hardens more readily and to a higher degree than the 304L. I would say the 304L is what you should use for fittings. Bolts and such are commonly 316 I think. 316 also comes in an "L" designation. In my Machinery's Handbook there is data on the comonest of stainless's (40 or 50 of them). I see none designated for anything like deck fittings. Closest I see there is 301. It has high strength and ductility, work-hardens. Used on railroad cars, trailer bodies, aircraft structurals, fasteners, automobile wheelcovers and trim, pole hardware. The book says the "L" is an extra-low carbon modification of the 304 especially suitable for welding. Seems the welding causes carbon to precipitate from the alloy when welded. The 300 series ss's are termed 'austenitic'. Some of the 400's are 'ferritic' and some are 'martensitic'. These are metallurgical terms referring mostly to the crystal structure of the cooled metal. Austenitic ss's are the ones that don't generally corrode too easily. Ferritic ones, as the name suggests would have a higher percentage of iron and will rust. Matensitic ones, I suspect, are the harder and more heat-resistant grades. There are specific heat-resistant grades in the 500 series as well, but those are pretty speciallized. Be aware, too, that stainless steels can still corrode, though they don't always rust. Hope this helps some. keith ----- Original Message ----- From: richytill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: [origami boats] Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality It might be worth noting that in the 300 series ss, 304 is around 15% stronger than 316. rt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1965|1943|2003-07-30 12:08:39|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: 26 footer|Can anyone help here?? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vinnie_barberino2000" wrote: > Hello all, > Can anyone tell me a little bit about the 26ft'r , > abilitys,disabilitys,,material list, Headroom? > Much appreiciated if you can. > Vinnie > Auckland | 1966|1960|2003-07-30 12:08:51|Gord Schnell|Re: Bullshit|I have chosen a 1.6L VW turbo diesel and married it to a 2.91:1 Borg Warner Velvet Drive. Had to custom the bellhousing. Runs nice and rated at 68 HP Gord richytill wrote: > > Joe, I have just tested a VW rabbit engine that I hooked > up to a Borg > Warner Velvet drive in a 36'. It took a bit of time and > there are a > few adjustments to make. I have limmited time but less > money so a > new engine was out of the question--as usual I cant resist > > experimenting. So, what specifically are you planning for > the Peugot? > rt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group > for couple > > of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff > here,however,lately the > > discussion is moving towards unproductive academic > bullshit.We > > should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of > steel boat > > construction,cost engineering to bring the cost > down,improving > safety > > and creating real value for serious cruising community. > > We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the > market > > very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and > design.We are > > planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion > and interior > > fitting out. > > Comments are invited on the following subjects > > (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads > > (2)multi-fuel heating > > (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) > > (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use > generators > > (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and > wind,floating wave > > generators > > (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out > > Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated > > Joe > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1967|1960|2003-07-30 12:09:05|Gord Schnell|Re: Bullshit|Don't bother to marinize it. Use the skeg or keel as your raditator, run an antifreeze coolant mix and dump the exhaust into a vertical saltwater cooling tower and out the transom. Gord joe klir wrote: > > HI,We are planning to marinise peugeot diesel engines from > 205 and > 405 cars for ur own projects and offer feww units to > interested parties > at very reasonable costs > JK > > richytill wrote: > Joe, I have just tested a VW rabbit engine that I hooked > up to a Borg > Warner Velvet drive in a 36'. It took a bit of time and > there are a > few adjustments to make. I have limmited time but less > money so a > new engine was out of the question--as usual I cant resist > > experimenting. So, what specifically are you planning for > the Peugot? > rt > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group > for couple > > of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff > here,however,lately the > > discussion is moving towards unproductive academic > bullshit.We > > should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of > steel boat > > construction,cost engineering to bring the cost > down,improving > safety > > and creating real value for serious cruising community. > > We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the > market > > very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and > design.We are > > planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion > and interior > > fitting out. > > Comments are invited on the following subjects > > (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads > > (2)multi-fuel heating > > (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) > > (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use > generators > > (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and > wind,floating wave > > generators > > (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out > > Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated > > Joe > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1968|1943|2003-07-30 12:10:19|mynode|26 footer|I'm looking for info on the 26 footer. Specs, some drawings or pictures perhaps. Anyone built one? -Mark| 1969|1969|2003-07-30 12:10:27|vinnie_barberino2000|26vs31|I would still like anyone with a 26 to give me a brief rundown on it, I am weighing that and the 31 up against each other.It would be nice to go down to the marina and view the differences but unfortunatly I am on the other side of the world.Any help will be much appreciated. Regards Steve| 1970|1943|2003-07-30 15:30:39|put_to_sea|Re: 26 footer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mynode" wrote: > I'm looking for info on the 26 footer. Specs, some drawings or > pictures perhaps. Anyone built one? > > -Mark You probably already saw it, but there is one in the photos section in the "Black Hull" folder. Amos| 1971|1971|2003-07-30 15:30:54|put_to_sea|vertical saltwater cooling tower |>>Don't bother to marinize it. Use the skeg or keel as your raditator, run an antifreeze coolant mix and dump the exhaust into a vertical saltwater cooling tower and out the transom. Gord<< Gord, would you care to elaborate a bit on the "vertical saltwater cooling tower"? Amos| 1972|1943|2003-07-30 15:41:31|John Jones|Re: 26 footer|Look on the Origamiboats web site under "files or photos" and read the book to get the big picture.... it's easy ---------- >From: "put_to_sea" >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: 26 footer >Date: Wed, Jul 30, 2003, 13:16 > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mynode" wrote: >> I'm looking for info on the 26 footer. Specs, some drawings or >> pictures perhaps. Anyone built one? >> >> -Mark > > You probably already saw it, but there is one in the photos section > in the "Black Hull" folder. > Amos > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1973|1943|2003-07-30 15:52:33|Alex Christie|Re: 26 footer|The photo album "Dove 3" has photos of the steel 26 footer that Winston Bushnell took through the NW Passage through above the arctic circle. It is a centreboard version, and evidently performed quite well. There were three crew on that voyage, and the trip was done in two seasons, I think. I think the smaller size, coupled with the centreboard option made it very easy to slip the vessel over very shallow bars, underwater ice ledges, and any kind of thin water, plus they were able to skid the boat out of the water at season's end, if I recall correctly. The main difference between the sizes doesn't appear to be a question of seaworthiness, but rather one of carrying capacity (fuel, water, food), and determining how much you personally need (though there are basic amounts required, some do with less). Watermakers could make up for reduced water tankage, however, and some people do more motoring than others, depending on how you cope with long calm periods. Brent's own boat is a 31, and quite sufficient for him, and certainly people have undertaken long distance voyages in much smaller vessels. Be that as it may, the 36 footer appears to be the most popular size built, I think because it is simultaneously small enough to be easily built and handled, yet large enough to really tank up with food, water and fuel for long offshore passages. For coastal sailing, the 26 footer would be ideal, but it doesn't mean it can't go offshore or Trans-Atlantic. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mynode" wrote: > I'm looking for info on the 26 footer. Specs, some drawings or > pictures perhaps. Anyone built one? > > -Mark | 1974|1960|2003-07-30 15:54:43|richytill|Re: Bullshit|Curious about the cooling tower--how does it work? rt -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell wrote: > Don't bother to marinize it. Use the skeg or keel as your > raditator, run an antifreeze coolant mix and dump the > exhaust into a vertical saltwater cooling tower and out the > transom. > Gord > > joe klir wrote: > > > > HI,We are planning to marinise peugeot diesel engines from > > 205 and > > 405 cars for ur own projects and offer feww units to > > interested parties > > at very reasonable costs > > JK > > > > richytill wrote: > > Joe, I have just tested a VW rabbit engine that I hooked > > up to a Borg > > Warner Velvet drive in a 36'. It took a bit of time and > > there are a > > few adjustments to make. I have limmited time but less > > money so a > > new engine was out of the question--as usual I cant resist > > > > experimenting. So, what specifically are you planning for > > the Peugot? > > rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" > > wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group > > for couple > > > of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff > > here,however,lately the > > > discussion is moving towards unproductive academic > > bullshit.We > > > should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of > > steel boat > > > construction,cost engineering to bring the cost > > down,improving > > safety > > > and creating real value for serious cruising community. > > > We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the > > market > > > very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and > > design.We are > > > planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion > > and interior > > > fitting out. > > > Comments are invited on the following subjects > > > (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads > > > (2)multi-fuel heating > > > (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) > > > (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use > > generators > > > (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and > > wind,floating wave > > > generators > > > (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out > > > Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated > > > Joe > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > > Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. | 1975|1943|2003-07-30 16:37:38|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: 26 footer|Cheers Guys, I am waiting for "The Origami Bible" to arrive on my doorstep,then I will be on a similar wavelength after reading it. Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie" wrote: > The photo album "Dove 3" has photos of the steel 26 footer that > Winston Bushnell took through the NW Passage through above the arctic > circle. It is a centreboard version, and evidently performed quite > well. There were three crew on that voyage, and the trip was done in > two seasons, I think. I think the smaller size, coupled with the > centreboard option made it very easy to slip the vessel over very > shallow bars, underwater ice ledges, and any kind of thin water, plus > they were able to skid the boat out of the water at season's end, if > I recall correctly. > > The main difference between the sizes doesn't appear to be a question > of seaworthiness, but rather one of carrying capacity (fuel, water, > food), and determining how much you personally need (though there are > basic amounts required, some do with less). Watermakers could make > up for reduced water tankage, however, and some people do more > motoring than others, depending on how you cope with long calm > periods. Brent's own boat is a 31, and quite sufficient for him, and > certainly people have undertaken long distance voyages in much > smaller vessels. Be that as it may, the 36 footer appears to be the > most popular size built, I think because it is simultaneously small > enough to be easily built and handled, yet large enough to really > tank up with food, water and fuel for long offshore passages. For > coastal sailing, the 26 footer would be ideal, but it doesn't mean it > can't go offshore or Trans-Atlantic. > > Alex > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mynode" wrote: > > I'm looking for info on the 26 footer. Specs, some drawings or > > pictures perhaps. Anyone built one? > > > > -Mark | 1976|1939|2003-07-31 02:30:55|mark_schlichting11|Re: looking for a book|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Glen" wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING by ALARD COLE??? > Looking to purchase one but I can't seem to find one anywhere. I've got a copy of Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles, published by John de Graff, but sorry, you can't have it. We found it in a used book store - two of the best ones to check regularly for marine books are Gallowglass Books in Duncan (gallow@...), and Compass Rose in Sidney, BC. Mark S. Costa Vida, Shearwater BC| 1977|1938|2003-07-31 02:50:07|mark_schlichting11|Re: Weight|Hello Martin and Betty, Another suggestion is to call the guy who launched our boat and at least a few other(likely many other) Brent Swain 36'ers. His name is Bill at All-Tow on the Island at 250-758-7511. He probably won't mind giving you some advice on the subject because A. he is a good guy, and B. because he probably won't have the time or the interest in coming to pick you up himself. Anyhow, if he can't remember what hauling a BS 36 specifically, he can probably refer to his log book for July 31, 1999 because that's when he launched us in Cowichan Bay. Two weeks prior to that he handled another 36' named Kobella for Ron Orser. Glad to hear you have progressed to the stage that you are thinking about the migration to the sea. Good Luck! Mark S Costa Vida Shearwater, BC| 1978|1954|2003-07-31 07:08:58|edward_stoneuk|Re: Scrounging for stainless detailing- how to judge quality|Don, As several have advised stainless steel is classified as either austenitic, ferritic or martensitic. The one we are mostly interested in is austenitic 300 series. Usually preferred and readily available is either the low carbon 304L or 316L. The tensile strength according to my pipe and tube brochure is 70,000 psi for both of them. The difference is that the 316L has a higher nickel content and includes some molybdenum. It tends to be used where the finish is important. I cannot tell the difference in a scrap piece. In a scrap yard if the stainless is part of a welded structure then it is probably one of the 300 series. That said it could be one of those suitable for high temp duty such as 321 or 310 or even one of the Inconel 600 series although this might be easy to ascertain by the heat discolouration. I wouldn't use one of the high temp types for deck fittings. One needs a low carbon steel to avoid cracking. Some auto exhaust parts are made from ferritic stainless which is difficult to weld. So the probably the only way of telling the stainless type in a scrap yard is by finding out about its previous life. One then comes to welding it. My 309 rods, which I use with a DC welder, allow me to weld 304L to 316L to mild steel. The next thing is post-welding treatment. Stainless steel gets its no-rust properties from the chrome oxide that forms on its surface. If that is not present then it is in a reactive state and may corrode. Cutting, grinding and welding, destroys the chrome oxide surface. The stainless needs to be passivated after these operations to bring it back to its non-reactive state. Examples of this not being done are, all too often stainless steel water tanks where the welding has burned the chrome out leaving a chrome-depleted surface. Sometimes this is made worse by the use of anti-spatter oil, which increases the carbon content of the heat affected zone. A chrome oxide surface does not form; the tank is put into service; no air can get to the welded area to enable the chrome oxide to form and it eventually corrodes through. In industry the welded area is usually pickled and passivated using acid emersion tanks and sprays to assist the forming of the chrome oxide. I have bought some pickling paste to put on the heat-affected area around my stainless welds. That and polishing after and leaving in the dry for a while seems to work. I wouldn't make a stainless tank because I do not have the facilities to passivate it. A2 fasteners are 304 A4 fasteners are 316 Regards, Ted| 1979|1939|2003-07-31 08:00:14|PHULME@BIGPOND.COM|Re: looking for a book|suggest that you try www.abebooks.com would appear that there are quite a few available your end of the world, also check spelling of author alard / adlard? regards Peter Hulme Perth Western Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: mark_schlichting11 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: looking for a book --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Glen" wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING by ALARD COLE??? > Looking to purchase one but I can't seem to find one anywhere. I've got a copy of Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles, published by John de Graff, but sorry, you can't have it. We found it in a used book store - two of the best ones to check regularly for marine books are Gallowglass Books in Duncan (gallow@...), and Compass Rose in Sidney, BC. Mark S. Costa Vida, Shearwater BC Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1980|1954|2003-07-31 08:18:51|Don Taylor|Re: Scrounging for stainless detailing- passivating|Ted, and others, Many thanks for the good advice. Your paragraph on post-welding brings up an issue with some welding that I had done professionally a few years ago. I wanted two hawse holes for the anchor chains. I had two rings of solid ss (they said it was 304, but maybe it was 304L) fabricated at a machine shop and arranged for a local welder to weld them into place. The result was an ugly, massively over-welded mess on my bows. I later learnt that the welder was a structural welder who had never welded ss before. He boasted about how many rods he had used and how it would never come apart. I then compounded his mess by aggressively grinding the welds to try to make them look acceptable. It took days and several disks. The ss weldment seemed to be made of diamond grit! I did not realise that there are ss only disks, and then I used a common steel wire brush in the grinder to try to polish the stainless steel. A week later the hawse holes were covered in rust bloom- I am in Ontario, Canada, so this was just from the rain. I wirebrushed again, a week later the same result result. For some reason I decided to switch to using those grit impregnated nylon disks made by 3M for use in the auto body refinishing, and I used some phosphoric acid wash on the ss. A week later, it was still rusty, but it was not so bad. I repeated this for 3-4 more week-ends until the rust bloom stopped appearing. It is now 5 years, the boat has been in warm salt water for two of those years, and the hawse rings are still clean. I have not touched them in that time. Sorry for the long story, my question is: Did I inadvertantlly manage to passivate the ss? If so, then it really is not that difficult, and the 3M disks gave a nice brushed-steel finish. If I had not managed to wirebrush so much common steel into the surface of the stainless then it would have been a real quick job. Thanks, Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > The next thing is post-welding treatment. Stainless steel gets its > no-rust properties from the chrome oxide that forms on its surface. > ... | 1981|1954|2003-07-31 08:51:53|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Scrounging for stainless detailing- passivating|Don, I don't believe you managed to embed any mild steel by brushing. What really happened is the welder used a LOT of heat on your parts. The surface material was changed by the heat to a greater depth than would normally occur. You eventually ground through it to the material below. I welded up some bow rails for my boat once using nice tiny tig welds on polished 316 stainless. The area rusted about a 1/2" out on either side of every weld. I had just polished off the blue color from the heat. I wound up actually using an abrasive wheel, then a finer abrasive, then polishing, and it didn't rust again. I understand that you can get the same results without all the grinding by passivating with an acid, but I've never seen anyone actually do it. Most small boat hardware is electro-polished. It's like electroplating in reverse, a little material gets removed. Sharp edges and bumps lose more material so the surface finish improves. I am familiar with this because I built a setup for a lab customer to do this. They were making parts for high purity crystal growing. It still requires acid passivating though to keep it from rusting. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Taylor" To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Scrounging for stainless detailing- passivating > Ted, and others, > > Many thanks for the good advice. > > Your paragraph on post-welding brings up an issue with some welding > that I had done professionally a few years ago. > > I wanted two hawse holes for the anchor chains. I had two rings of > solid ss (they said it was 304, but maybe it was 304L) fabricated at > a machine shop and arranged for a local welder to weld them into > place. The result was an ugly, massively over-welded mess on my > bows. I later learnt that the welder was a structural welder who had > never welded ss before. He boasted about how many rods he had used > and how it would never come apart. > > I then compounded his mess by aggressively grinding the welds to try > to make them look acceptable. It took days and several disks. The > ss weldment seemed to be made of diamond grit! I did not realise > that there are ss only disks, and then I used a common steel wire > brush in the grinder to try to polish the stainless steel. > > A week later the hawse holes were covered in rust bloom- I am in > Ontario, Canada, so this was just from the rain. I wirebrushed > again, a week later the same result result. > > For some reason I decided to switch to using those grit impregnated > nylon disks made by 3M for use in the auto body refinishing, and I > used some phosphoric acid wash on the ss. A week later, it was still > rusty, but it was not so bad. I repeated this for 3-4 more week-ends > until the rust bloom stopped appearing. > > It is now 5 years, the boat has been in warm salt water for two of > those years, and the hawse rings are still clean. I have not touched > them in that time. > > Sorry for the long story, my question is: > > Did I inadvertantlly manage to passivate the ss? > > If so, then it really is not that difficult, and the 3M disks gave a > nice brushed-steel finish. If I had not managed to wirebrush so much > common steel into the surface of the stainless then it would have > been a real quick job. > > Thanks, > > Don. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > The next thing is post-welding treatment. Stainless steel gets its > > no-rust properties from the chrome oxide that forms on its > surface. > > ... > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1982|1982|2003-07-31 10:04:17|Gord Schnell|Re: vertical saltwater cooling tower|The tower is really just a water muffler that is mounted partially below the waterline or filled by pump. Exhaust from the engine manifold is piped up above the waterline (with a siphon-break) and inserted midway up the tower - below the water level. The tower outlet is near the top and piped out the transom (or wherever). The exhaust is cooled by the saltwater and both are carried out of the tower to sea, Gord put_to_sea wrote: > > >>Don't bother to marinize it. Use the skeg or keel as > your > raditator, run an antifreeze coolant mix and dump the > exhaust into a vertical saltwater cooling tower and out > the > transom. > Gord<< > > Gord, would you care to elaborate a bit on the "vertical > saltwater > cooling tower"? > Amos > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. | 1983|1939|2003-07-31 13:52:01|Stephen Wandling|Re: looking for a book|You can get Heavy Weather Sailing for US$5 and up at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-1737079-3923810 This information was posted earlier| 1984|1984|2003-07-31 18:32:22|mynode|Stiffness, shape, and scalability|My experments with little bits of paper and cardboard and have fostered a few questions about material stiffness, added stiffeners and scalability. It seems to me that differences in stiffness could change the distribution of the folding stress throughout the hull. This would in turn effect the strain distribution and therefore the final shape. How accurately does the cardboard model reflect the final dimentions of the completed hull? Does material stiffness effect the final shape? Does an aluminum boat wind up with different final dimentions than a steel one built to the same template? How about the effect of added stiffeners? Is it possible to vary the shape with stringers? If so, how might these effects be accounted for in a scale model? Thanks, - Mark| 1985|1984|2003-07-31 18:52:35|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stiffness, shape, and scalability|Mark, I bought a set of Brent's plans for the 31'. I then tried to model it in Rhino3D. It looked as if it was all conical sections. That did not prove to be true. There is some compound curve forced into the bow and stern when the boat is pulled together. This means your cardboard model will not accurately reflect a steel boat, and an aluminum one is likely to be different as well. I tried to adjust the shapes to get true conical surfaces, but so far I have not managed it without some kinks. That doesn't mean it can't be done, it may be more a measure of my modeling skills, I don't do surfaces much. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mynode" To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stiffness, shape, and scalability > My experments with little bits of paper and cardboard and have > fostered a few questions about material stiffness, added stiffeners > and scalability. It seems to me that differences in stiffness could > change the distribution of the folding stress throughout the hull. > This would in turn effect the strain distribution and therefore the > final shape. > > How accurately does the cardboard model reflect the final dimentions > of the completed hull? Does material stiffness effect the final > shape? Does an aluminum boat wind up with different final dimentions > than a steel one built to the same template? How about the effect of > added stiffeners? Is it possible to vary the shape with stringers? > If so, how might these effects be accounted for in a scale model? > > Thanks, > - Mark > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1986|1986|2003-07-31 23:19:14|John Foster|abebooks.com for finding new and used books|> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 06:30:54 -0000 > From: "mark_schlichting11" >Subject: Re: looking for a book > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Glen" wrote: >> Does anyone have a copy of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING by ALARD >COLE??? >> Looking to purchase one but I can't seem to find one anywhere. > >I've got a copy of Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles, >published by John de Graff, but sorry, you can't have it. We found >it in a used book store - two of the best ones to check regularly >for marine books are Gallowglass Books in Duncan >(gallow@...), and Compass Rose in Sidney, BC. > >Mark S. >Costa Vida, >Shearwater BC >________________________________________________________________________ >________________________________________________________________________ > >Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 19:50:27 +0800 > From: PHULME@... >Subject: Re: Re: looking for a book > >suggest that you try www.abebooks.com would appear that there are >quite a few available your end of the world, also check spelling of >author alard / adlard? >regards >Peter Hulme Perth Western Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mark_schlichting11 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 2:30 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: looking for a book > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Glen" wrote: > > Does anyone have a copy of HEAVY WEATHER SAILING by ALARD > COLE??? > > Looking to purchase one but I can't seem to find one anywhere. > > I've got a copy of Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles, > published by John de Graff, but sorry, you can't have it. We found > it in a used book store - two of the best ones to check regularly > for marine books are Gallowglass Books in Duncan > (gallow@...), and Compass Rose in Sidney, BC. > > Mark S. > Costa Vida, > Shearwater BC > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > Looking at http://www.abebooks.com/ and entering the search I found 222 different copies available from book sellers all over the world. You just can't beat the search capabilities of http://www.abebooks.com/ for rare, hard to find, out of print books, both nw and used. Have a nice day John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1987|1987|2003-07-31 23:28:38|johnkupris@aol.com|cutting glass|I have patio doors that say that they've been hardened. A search of the web did not produce much although I found one place that said hardened glass cannot be cut. I'm thinking that a diamond concrete blade will cut it with alot of water. Has anybody done this, I need the glass for portholes. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1988|1987|2003-08-01 00:56:56|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: cutting glass|Mate that is what I call dedication, cutting up the patio doors !! Whats the Mrs gonna say? She hasnt just recently said to you like mine has "its that &%$#EN boat or ME!"? Good on you Mate. Steve. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, johnkupris@a... wrote: > I have patio doors that say that they've been hardened. A search of the web > did not produce much although I found one place that said hardened glass cannot > be cut. I'm thinking that a diamond concrete blade will cut it with alot of > water. Has anybody done this, I need the glass for portholes. John > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 1989|1987|2003-08-01 01:52:39|The Christies|Re: cutting glass|If you try to cut tempered glass, it will shatter into tiny pieces the moment that blade touches the edge. I have just installed the glass recycled from used patio doors in my new deck railing system, and was told by the glass shop here in BC that indeed you cannot cut the tempered (hardened) glass that these doors are made of. For most of the deck railings I was able to use standard patio glass sizes, but for the one smaller piece I needed the glass company cut the glass to the required size, then sent it out to be tempered ($51 for a 44" wide by 34" high piece). For your port-holes you will need to have your glass cut to shape, then sent out for tempering. You may want to check to see if you can get it done in safety glass, which is a lamination of two pieces of glass with plastic in between. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] cutting glass > I have patio doors that say that they've been hardened. A search of the web > did not produce much although I found one place that said hardened glass cannot > be cut. I'm thinking that a diamond concrete blade will cut it with alot of > water. Has anybody done this, I need the glass for portholes. John > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > | 1990|1984|2003-08-01 04:38:25|mynode|Re: Stiffness, shape, and scalability|Gary, After thinking about this for a while I believe I've figured out what's going on. Your Rhino model would work if you rolled the bends in the plate before you welded it up. Doing so would eliminate the residual stresses imposed by the folding process. Brent's templates compensate for the strains caused by the residual stresses throughout the plate. In fact, I bet one could get a slightly different template shape just by changing location of the come-along attachment points. I wonder how much nipping and tucking Brent had to do to arrive at his final templates? How great were the differences between your models and the templates? To develop a perfect template on a computer would require a rather sophisticated cad program capable of performing stress/strain analysis. I'm hoping to figure our a way to accurately model a hull in a smaller (and cheaper) scale as the shape I have in mind would be rather sensitive to the stiffness of the material and additions like sheer clamps and stringers. I'm considering a hull about the size and shape as that of a Transat 650 boat. - Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Mark, > I bought a set of Brent's plans for the 31'. I then tried to model it in > Rhino3D. It looked as if it was all conical sections. That did not prove > to be true. There is some compound curve forced into the bow and stern when > the boat is pulled together. This means your cardboard model will not > accurately reflect a steel boat, and an aluminum one is likely to be > different as well. I tried to adjust the shapes to get true conical > surfaces, but so far I have not managed it without some kinks. That doesn't > mean it can't be done, it may be more a measure of my modeling skills, I > don't do surfaces much. > > Gary H. Lucas | 1991|1987|2003-08-01 06:42:13|burr.halpern@annapolis.net|Re: cutting glass|Actually, tempered glass is not suitable for portlights. As noted when scratched tempered glass turns to little pieces. For portlights you are looking for Lexan or for laminated safety glass which is what is used in car windshields but not in car side windows. Jeff The Christies wrote: > If you try to cut tempered glass, it will shatter into tiny pieces the > moment that blade touches the edge. I have just installed the glass > recycled from used patio doors in my new deck railing system, and was told > by the glass shop here in BC that indeed you cannot cut the tempered > (hardened) glass that these doors are made of. For most of the deck > railings I was able to use standard patio glass sizes, but for the one > smaller piece I needed the glass company cut the glass to the required size, > then sent it out to be tempered ($51 for a 44" wide by 34" high piece). For > your port-holes you will need to have your glass cut to shape, then sent out > for tempering. You may want to check to see if you can get it done in > safety glass, which is a lamination of two pieces of glass with plastic in > between. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:28 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] cutting glass > > > I have patio doors that say that they've been hardened. A search of the > web > > did not produce much although I found one place that said hardened glass > cannot > > be cut. I'm thinking that a diamond concrete blade will cut it with alot > of > > water. Has anybody done this, I need the glass for portholes. John > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | 1992|1888|2003-08-01 07:18:59|edward_stoneuk|Re: Just Joined|Joe, If you are going to sell a new boat in the European Union you should be aware of this legislation before you go further: Council Directive 94/25/EC on the approximation of laws, regulations and administrative provisions relating to Recreational Craft The Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/EC is a directive based on the new and global approach, and sets essential requirements for the design and construction of recreational craft. Recreational craft are defined as "any craft intended for sport or leisure purposes, regardless of the type or the means of propulsion, with a hull length of 2.5 to 24 meters, measured according to the appropriate harmonized standards'. The Directive applies to pleasure craft, partially completed boats and loose and assembled components. The Directive entered into application as from 16 June 1996 and became fully applicable as from 16 June 1998. Manufacturers and importers may no longer place pleasure craft and components on the market which do not comply with the essential reauirements of the directive. In addition to the technical requirements recreational craft have to comply with, the Directive imposes the manufacturer to keep a technical file of all relevant data, to officially state the conformity of his product in a Declaration of Conformity, to affix the CE Marking on it and to inform the users about safe use/maintenance through a builder's plate and an owner's manual. Regards, Ted| 1993|1993|2003-08-01 12:06:38|...|Re Joined the group two weeks ago|Hi Joe, As you intend to build Brent's designs commercially for sale,I hope you have asked and got an agreement with Brent allowing you to do this,otherwise you will be infringing his copyright. When a designer sells plans he usually gives permission to build one boat from the plans, if an additional boat is built he has the right to ask for a payment for each boat built,this would cover a group of friends building boats for there own use. If his designs are being built commercially it is necessary to have an agreement with the designer covering the use of his name and agreeing payments for all boats built. I do not know what Brent would wish to do but I would think that as he has very little income he might wish to have some return for all his efforts, as after his ocean cruising he will be needing to replace some of the gear on his yacht. Whilst this is a group who share ideas and designs of there boats and equipment for other members use it dose not give anyone the right to produce them commercially. After joining the group two weeks ago you appear to be an expert on this type of construction and have decide what should be discussed and what you consider to be bullshit,I thought that Alex who very rarely intervenes was the moderator of the group,I hope that one of the older members of the group will correct me if I have misunderstood the objectives, I thought that anyone could put forward ideas for discussion even if they might be considered by some as unproductive academic bullshit. Sometimes from what you call bullshit something dose emerge or make use think about an issue that might have been overlooked it would be interesting if you might tell use what you consider comes under that heading. It would appear that you wish the group to only discuss the things that are of interest to you and relevant to your commercial enterprise,ie, the 6 items you have outlined, which appears like a brief you might give to a designer you were commissioning to design and develop the improvements you wish to incorporate into the products that you intend building for sale. If you wish the group to help it might have been more tactful to ask if they might help rather than to refer to discussions as bullshit, I was not aware that you had yet made any contribution to the group apart from criticize. Having been in the group for some time I have found all the knowledge and experience of the people who are building or already have built a yacht very interesting and invaluable I lean something new every week. Perhaps you might like to tell the group of your knowledge and experience designing and building steel boat hulls,yachts,ships and converting vehicle engines for marine and other uses. Do you have a ship yard or an engineering company with the design facilities to design the hulls and the developed shape of the plates, which will also construct the yachts, what are you building at present. Geoff Cheshire England| 1994|1993|2003-08-01 12:58:37|joe klir|Re: Re Joined the group two weeks ago|Hi Geoff, First of all I would like to apologise for being misunderstood or sounding arogant.Our project,involving origami boatbuilding approach is in the planning stage and,if we go ahead we will definitely pay Brett his fees for each boat we build. We have noted the various issues being discussed,especially the high cost of engines and generators,and we will share our experience in this area with the group.We are working on marinising the Peugeot engines and generators and the cost models look very atractive. Soonest we have tested both products,we will post all details . We are not a pure commercial enterprise,but we thought that some members of this group could benefit from our efforts,especially if the do not have the facilities or expertise to do so. We have build two boats,using the frameless approach for multichine hull and one round chine in aluminium. Our comment"Bullshit",maybe not wery politically correct,was not directed towards the general discussion,but directed to the unpoductive arguments about steel hulls and the term was introduced by Brett himself.. Best Regards Joe "..." wrote: Hi Joe, As you intend to build Brent's designs commercially for sale,I hope you have asked and got an agreement with Brent allowing you to do this,otherwise you will be infringing his copyright. When a designer sells plans he usually gives permission to build one boat from the plans, if an additional boat is built he has the right to ask for a payment for each boat built,this would cover a group of friends building boats for there own use. If his designs are being built commercially it is necessary to have an agreement with the designer covering the use of his name and agreeing payments for all boats built. I do not know what Brent would wish to do but I would think that as he has very little income he might wish to have some return for all his efforts, as after his ocean cruising he will be needing to replace some of the gear on his yacht. Whilst this is a group who share ideas and designs of there boats and equipment for other members use it dose not give anyone the right to produce them commercially. After joining the group two weeks ago you appear to be an expert on this type of construction and have decide what should be discussed and what you consider to be bullshit,I thought that Alex who very rarely intervenes was the moderator of the group,I hope that one of the older members of the group will correct me if I have misunderstood the objectives, I thought that anyone could put forward ideas for discussion even if they might be considered by some as unproductive academic bullshit. Sometimes from what you call bullshit something dose emerge or make use think about an issue that might have been overlooked it would be interesting if you might tell use what you consider comes under that heading. It would appear that you wish the group to only discuss the things that are of interest to you and relevant to your commercial enterprise,ie, the 6 items you have outlined, which appears like a brief you might give to a designer you were commissioning to design and develop the improvements you wish to incorporate into the products that you intend building for sale. If you wish the group to help it might have been more tactful to ask if they might help rather than to refer to discussions as bullshit, I was not aware that you had yet made any contribution to the group apart from criticize. Having been in the group for some time I have found all the knowledge and experience of the people who are building or already have built a yacht very interesting and invaluable I lean something new every week. Perhaps you might like to tell the group of your knowledge and experience designing and building steel boat hulls,yachts,ships and converting vehicle engines for marine and other uses. Do you have a ship yard or an engineering company with the design facilities to design the hulls and the developed shape of the plates, which will also construct the yachts, what are you building at present. Geoff Cheshire England Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 1995|1993|2003-08-01 13:42:16|Alex Christie|language issues...|Hi all, Just a gentle reminder that while this forum respects all opinions, I do cringe whenever someone uses what most would consider strong or "pointed" language; the internet communication medium seems to magnify it beyond its original intent. Probably alot to do with the fact that these conversations are between people who have never met, and so have no idea of the character of the person writing to put their message into a personal, subjective context. So, while some of the language is similar to what I also use around the house (especially when discussing yet another silly move by our local, regional or provincial government), it is risky to use here. Call me paranoid, but for the sake of the good health and longevity of the group, please imagine that you are addressing something like the UN Council when you post, and adjust your language appropriately. I don't mean that you need to be stiff and formal -- just edit the swearwords out of your posts! Yer friendly moderator, Alex| 1996|1996|2003-08-01 14:15:59|...|Joe's project|Hi Joe, There was some discussion on the use of vehicle diesel engines I cannot see that there is any reason not to use them,why did you decide to use the Peugeot engines?. The round chine hull you built in aluminium was that built by the origami method? What design did you use and what length was it, was it one of Brent's? Did you have any problems welding the aluminium? Where are you building in the UK. Best wishes Geoff Cheshire| 1997|1984|2003-08-01 18:51:21|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Stiffness, shape, and scalability|Mark, My model didn't have any stress or strain to worry about. A shape derived from pure conic or cylindrical sections does not distort the material if it is relatively thin compared to its size. Unroll a ventilation square to round transition, or any other sheetmetal construction. The pieces will lie perfectly flat again because no compound curvature was introduced anywhere. Brent's boats actually have compound curvature forced into them by the come-alongs once the edges are restrained. If you were to unfold a Brent boat the sheet would no longer lie flat, it would be permanently cup shaped. Anyone with a Brent boat can verify this. If the boat were a true conical shape you could lay a straight on the bow area with one end at the end of the chine. Sweeping the other end along the rail and down the bow towards the keel the straight edge would lie on the hull the whole time. That is not the case, there is a couple of inches of curvature there. This makes it very hard to reverse engineer with a computer. I am sure Brent did some trimming on the first boats to get the shape as pleasing as it is. I sailed on one of his 36' and sitting there at the dock the hull is so smooth you'd swear it was fiberglass out of a mold. The boats that Don from info@... builds do not require distortion of the metal either. So the actual boat if accurately cut out will be extremely close to the original computer model. Close enough that all interior details could be designed and built, and would fit with minimal trim work. That in fact was my original goal. I think the interior of home built boats are mostly poorly done. After crawling through dozens of boats at a recent show I've concluded that most commercial boat interiors are poorly done as well. Some highly respected names like Island Packet had some real whopper goofs in their interiors. I attribute this to 2D paper design, where it is extremely difficult to visualize WHERE the hull really is in relation to your interior. The home builder get this huge empty, odd-shaped cavern to fill with bunks, cabinets, heads etc. He starts building at one end, and when he gets to the other end, whoops, a two inch difference at the other end would have made this fit! Too late, we'll have to live with it. With Rhino 3d I get to look at it from every angle, even ones impossible on a real boat. I can put in an appropriately scaled figure, and be sure I will actually fit in that space without my head cocked over to avoid hitting the overhead. My feet will have room. With the boat heeled at 30 degrees that handhold overhead will still be reachable as I stand on the floor. And last but not least. I could build all the interior components, well before starting the hull. This way I wouldn't have a huge hulk sitting around waiting and rusting for the detail work to get done. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mynode" To: Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 4:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Stiffness, shape, and scalability > Gary, > > After thinking about this for a while I believe I've figured out > what's going on. Your Rhino model would work if you rolled the bends > in the plate before you welded it up. Doing so would eliminate the > residual stresses imposed by the folding process. Brent's templates > compensate for the strains caused by the residual stresses throughout > the plate. In fact, I bet one could get a slightly different template > shape just by changing location of the come-along attachment points. > I wonder how much nipping and tucking Brent had to do to arrive at his > final templates? How great were the differences between your models > and the templates? > > To develop a perfect template on a computer would require a rather > sophisticated cad program capable of performing stress/strain analysis. > > I'm hoping to figure our a way to accurately model a hull in a smaller > (and cheaper) scale as the shape I have in mind would be rather > sensitive to the stiffness of the material and additions like sheer > clamps and stringers. I'm considering a hull about the size and shape > as that of a Transat 650 boat. > > - Mark > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > Mark, > > I bought a set of Brent's plans for the 31'. I then tried to model > it in > > Rhino3D. It looked as if it was all conical sections. That did not > prove > > to be true. There is some compound curve forced into the bow and > stern when > > the boat is pulled together. This means your cardboard model will not > > accurately reflect a steel boat, and an aluminum one is likely to be > > different as well. I tried to adjust the shapes to get true conical > > surfaces, but so far I have not managed it without some kinks. That > doesn't > > mean it can't be done, it may be more a measure of my modeling skills, I > > don't do surfaces much. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > | 1998|1998|2003-08-01 21:55:10|robertgm36|36 twin keel for sale|36 ft Swain pilothouse , aft cabin ,v-berth plus can sleep three more. Head,holding tank up forward ,diesel heater,two burner propane stove with oven,big ice box and plenty of storage throughout. 50 HP Isuzu , borg-warner trans , cutter rigged ,new mainsail ,various other sails,extra motor with top end redone same model as in boat. New steel mast with fittings welded on . The boat is currently rigged with a mast and galvanized wire and can be used just fine as is. I was on the road to improving everything and a family situation forces this sale . She was just hauled and has a fresh coat of epoxy on the bottom and topsides plus four coats of bottom paint. This boat will be at the metal boat gathering in Bellingham Aug 9/10. Asking $ 38,000.00 US obo ,all serious offers considered. Email me direct for more details. Robert| 1999|1987|2003-08-02 12:39:31|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: cutting glass|thanks for the reply: is laminated safety glass cutable? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 2000|1987|2003-08-02 19:47:05|mynode|Re: cutting glass|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, johnkupris@a... wrote: Are you planning to cut it yourself? Laminated glass can be cut by conventionl methods, but it is a bit trickier than cutting regular plate or sheet glass and mistakes are a lot more expensive. The edges tend to be fragile because each layer of glass is thin so it's very easy to chip a run in it when you are working with it. Another option might be wire glass (plate glass with wire mesh embedded in it). It's not that common anymore because it is no longer approved for use in doors or tub/shower enclosures (around here anyway). It is easier to cut than laminated glass and much less expensive, but like laminated glass it stays together when broken. Given the small sizes you are looking for, you might find some salvaged wire glass at a glass shop for cheap. - Mark > thanks for the reply: is laminated safety glass cutable? John > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |