2001|1987|2003-08-03 07:26:32|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: cutting glass|In a message dated 8/2/03 11:48:04 PM !!!First Boot!!!, mynode@... writes: > Subj:[origamiboats] Re: cutting glass > Date:8/2/03 11:48:04 PM !!!First Boot!!! > From:mynode@... > Reply-to:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To:origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, johnkupris@a... wrote: > Are you planning to cut it yourself? > > Laminated glass can be cut by conventionl methods, but it is a bit > trickier than cutting regular plate or sheet glass and mistakes are a > lot more expensive. The edges tend to be fragile because each layer > of glass is thin so it's very easy to chip a run in it when you are > working with it. > > Another option might be wire glass (plate glass with wire mesh > embedded in it). It's not that common anymore because it is no longer > approved for use in doors or tub/shower enclosures (around here > anyway). It is easier to cut than laminated glass and much less > expensive, but like laminated glass it stays together when broken. > Given the small sizes you are looking for, you might find some > salvaged wire glass at a glass shop for cheap. > > - Mark > > > thanks for the reply: is laminated safety glass cutable? John > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Hi Mark, how would I cut up large flat truck windshields that are laminated safety glass? Could I use the diamond abrasive concrete saw and dribble water for a lubricant? Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2002|1987|2003-08-05 04:48:07|mynode|Re: cutting glass|Hi John, You could try a diamond saw, but I'm not optomistic. If you do, use a lot of water to keep the glass cool. Glassworkers (I used to be one) rarely use saws because they're slow and much less reliable than a glass cutter. On the other hand, it takes practice to develop enough skill with a glass cutter to get consistent results, especially with laminated glass. Laminated glass has to be scored and snapped on both sides then gently flexed until a razor blade can be worked in to cut the plastic sheet. This means that a curved cut must be made as a series of short straight cuts. Alcohol will help soften the plastic. Once cut you can gently round the edges off with a wet sander. If you want to try a glass cutter email me and I can give you some more tips. Good Luck! - Mark mynode@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, johnkupris@a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/2/03 11:48:04 PM !!!First Boot!!!, mynode@y... > writes: > Hi Mark, how would I cut up large flat truck windshields that are laminated > safety glass? Could I use the diamond abrasive concrete saw and dribble water > for a > lubricant? Thanks, John |
2003|1987|2003-08-05 08:05:39|sae140|Re: cutting glass|For portlights, would ordinary thick glass (as used in shop windows etc) be out of the question ? I've no idea what thickness it is - hopefully 10mm plus. I have been considering the idea of using rear side windows from an estate car (or similar) for the wheelhouse, with removable storm- shutters. Don't know how sensible this is. Still thinking about it. Colin|
2004|1960|2003-08-06 12:46:18|joe_klir|Re: Bullshit|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: Hi,thank you very much,just completed drawings for the conversion,new marine diesel costs here inUK about £6,000,we got ex Peugeot 205 for £250,recon rebuild will cost about £500,so the economic looks good Regards Joe > Curious about the cooling tower--how does it work? rt > > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Gord Schnell > wrote: > > Don't bother to marinize it. Use the skeg or keel as your > > raditator, run an antifreeze coolant mix and dump the > > exhaust into a vertical saltwater cooling tower and out the > > transom. > > Gord > > > > joe klir wrote: > > > > > > HI,We are planning to marinise peugeot diesel engines from > > > 205 and > > > 405 cars for ur own projects and offer feww units to > > > interested parties > > > at very reasonable costs > > > JK > > > > > > richytill wrote: > > > Joe, I have just tested a VW rabbit engine that I hooked > > > up to a Borg > > > Warner Velvet drive in a 36'. It took a bit of time and > > > there are a > > > few adjustments to make. I have limmited time but less > > > money so a > > > new engine was out of the question--as usual I cant resist > > > > > > experimenting. So, what specifically are you planning for > > > the Peugot? > > > rt > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "joe_klir" > > > wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Myself and my associates have been monitoring this group > > > for couple > > > > of weeks.Thhere is very usefull stuff > > > here,however,lately the > > > > discussion is moving towards unproductive academic > > > bullshit.We > > > > should be concetrating on improving our knowledge of > > > steel boat > > > > construction,cost engineering to bring the cost > > > down,improving > > > safety > > > > and creating real value for serious cruising community. > > > > We are at present conducting a study of bringing to the > > > market > > > > very cost effective boats based on Brents ideas and > > > design.We are > > > > planning to offer boats at verious stages of completion > > > and interior > > > > fitting out. > > > > Comments are invited on the following subjects > > > > (1)Introduction of water-tight bulkheads > > > > (2)multi-fuel heating > > > > (3)marinizing peugeot engines(our little Project) > > > > (4)Affordable generators-marinising general use > > > generators > > > > (5)Alternative source of energy-solar and > > > wind,floating wave > > > > generators > > > > (6)Simplification of interior fitting-out > > > > Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated > > > > Joe > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > > of Service. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > > Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > > of Service. |
2006|2006|2003-08-08 00:27:53|Brian|Deck Beam Production|What would be easier to produce 19 deck beams of 5/16"X5"with heat and bending or plasma cut from plate ? Brian inland BC for now|
2007|2006|2003-08-08 06:18:36|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Deck Beam Production|Have you considered beams produced by a cold-rolled-on-edge process? This method is quite effective and the result is superior to most processes with the bonus of some cold-working of the steel. The machine is called a "section rolls" in Australia, however, the best machines appear to be Swedish in origin (Roundo). Larger metalworking (boilermaking/fabricating) shops will usually have either the horizontal or vertical rolls machines and a 'phone call will get you some action. Rolling bar or hollow sections (FMS or RHS) needs the builder to specify the rise over the span, or to draw a pattern radius on the floor. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: Brian [mailto:bri-mac@...] Sent: Friday, 8 August 2003 13:58 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Deck Beam Production What would be easier to produce 19 deck beams of 5/16"X5"with heat and bending or plasma cut from plate ? Brian inland BC for now To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/|
2008|2006|2003-08-08 09:59:16|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Deck Beam Production|Brian, For the slight curve needed for deck beams you could do this with a hammer and an anvil. You simply hammer on side along one edge and that edge will become the top of your deck beam. The metal expands slightly with each hammer blow and the metal starts to curve. I recommended this to someone else here building an aluminum boat and he reported that it took somewhat longer than I predicted but that it wasn't nearly the job he expected. Set up a couple of supports for the strip on either side of the anvil. If you have someone to feed the strip along as you hammer it is much easier to do. Wear ear protection! Gary H. Lucas Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian" To: Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 12:27 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Deck Beam Production > What would be easier to produce 19 deck beams of 5/16"X5"with heat > and bending or plasma cut from plate ? > Brian inland BC for now > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2009|2006|2003-08-08 13:27:22|Stephen Wandling|Re: Deck Beam Production|I have watched both Brent and Evan Shaler bend deck beams and their method is very simple and quick. Even I can do it, though not as quickly as they do. You need something with two horizontal edges that are about 8 to 10 inches apart. I used a piece of 10" wide "I" beam laid flat. You place the flat bar, on edge, spanning between your two edges, and smack it with a sledge hammer in mid span. Slide it over until the 'smacked' point is over one of the support edges and smack it in the middle again. Repeat. After doing a few, you will probably be able to do one in a couple of minutes. Once you get one that fits fairly well you can use it for a pattern. As I'm sure the plans show, you actually overbend the beams just slightly, as they are installed after the cabin top is plated. You tack one end and push them up and keep tacking as you move to the other end. Just to be clear, this method is different than the one mentioned below, where you are making the upper edge of each beam thinner by hammering on it and expanding the metal. "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Brian, > For the slight curve needed for deck beams you could do this with a > hammer > and an anvil. You simply hammer on side along one edge and that edge > will > become the top of your deck beam. The metal expands slightly with > each > hammer blow and the metal starts to curve. |
2010|2006|2003-08-08 15:39:44|edward_stoneuk|Re: Deck Beam Production|Brian, 5/16" x 5" are rather deep for deck beams. They will reduce headroom somewhat. What type of boat are you building? Regards, Ted|
2011|2011|2003-08-08 16:31:50|John Jones|Grade of Steele for the Hull |I really hate it when I go to make a purchase for something as straight forward as steel and someone throws in a couple of curves. I told them that "mild steel" would do but was told that mild steel may not bend as desired when needed and a grade "44W" would be better. Should I be concerned or am I just looking too hard? JOHN|
2012|2006|2003-08-09 06:26:20|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Deck Beam Production|Brian, As Ted says, the beam depth is significant --- a large-ish vessel. On the assumption that your design calls for 5" on the centreline, I would think the "hammer and tap" method is an unlikely candidate, which is why I suggested the section rolls. On the other hand, if only part of the apparent cross-section of the beams is 5", there could be options to fabricate the beams from more easily handled flat bar sizes. In this latter case, I was thinking about the knee sections at the ends. Regards, Terry -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Saturday, 9 August 2003 5:10 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Deck Beam Production Brian, 5/16" x 5" are rather deep for deck beams. They will reduce headroom somewhat. What type of boat are you building? Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/|
2013|2013|2003-08-09 12:53:53|info@easysoftwareinc.com|pictures|Construction of the Genoa 55 is underway. The first side has been folded and tacked. Here are some recent pictures. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_construction.htm Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 www.easysoftwareinc.com greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2014|2013|2003-08-09 13:55:09|Claude Poitras|Re: pictures|How thick is the aluminium Hull plates? -----Original Message----- From: info@... [mailto:info@...] Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 10:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] pictures Construction of the Genoa 55 is underway. The first side has been folded and tacked. Here are some recent pictures. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_const ruction.htm Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 www.easysoftwareinc.com greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2015|2006|2003-08-09 14:35:57|Brian|Re: Deck Beam Production|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Brian, > > 5/16" x 5" are rather deep for deck beams. They will reduce headroom > somewhat. What type of boat are you building? > > Regards, > Ted I'm building a 55 foot flush deck buehler designed Diesel Swan.Its a full dislpacement power boat that although not origimi is simple in design. Brian|
2016|2016|2003-08-09 18:17:07|John Jones|Gewrew Brent|Okay so I e-mailed Brent direct and "Yahoo" said he no longer has an e-mail address.... Help!!! John|
2017|2016|2003-08-09 18:21:33|Stephen Wandling|Re: Gewrew Brent|Brent's current address is brentswain38@... John Jones wrote: > Okay so I e-mailed Brent direct and "Yahoo" said he no longer > has an e-mail address.... Help!!! John > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "The failure to strive for completeness is probably the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen|
2018|2016|2003-08-09 20:07:41|The Christies|Re: Gewrew Brent|Brent's Yahoo address ends with "yahoo.ca" (brentswain38@...)-- I don't know if you used "yahoo.com" ending, but this might make a difference, possibly not. He got his Yahoo address more recently because it offers more storage (6 mb vs 2mb for Hotmail), so it should (theoretically) be working. Try again with the ".ca" ending and see if it goes through. Failing that, his brentswain38@... works too. Alex|
2019|2013|2003-08-10 15:42:06|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: pictures|The hull plate is 3/8" - alloy 5086 H116 ----- Original Message ----- From: Claude Poitras To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] pictures How thick is the aluminium Hull plates? -----Original Message----- From: info@... [mailto:info@...] Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 10:55 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] pictures Construction of the Genoa 55 is underway. The first side has been folded and tacked. Here are some recent pictures. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_const ruction.htm Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 www.easysoftwareinc.com greg@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2020|732|2003-08-10 21:09:12|jonhackett44|Lead|Hey Gang, Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting method. I have salvaged wheel weights. Any thoughts? 36' Bilge keeler Jon|
2021|732|2003-08-10 22:34:22|Stephen Wandling|Re: Lead|What do you think of the method that Brent shows in his book? I intend to use this method. I'm pretty freaked about lead vapour and the potential poisoning so I am not keen on hauling a container of molten lead into the boat. Stephen jonhackett44 wrote: > Hey Gang, > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting method. I > have salvaged wheel weights. > Any thoughts? > 36' Bilge keeler > Jon |
2022|732|2003-08-10 23:26:15|Gord Schnell|Re: Lead|Jon I have a lead pot I used to melt and pour 50 lb. billets. Works great with "tiger torch or Briquettes and an air blower. It is SS, has a 2" gate valve for dumping the molten lead and is mounted on a stand. Let me know if your interested. Gord jonhackett44 wrote: > > Hey Gang, > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting > method. I > have salvaged wheel weights. > Any thoughts? > 36' Bilge keeler > Jon > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
2023|732|2003-08-10 23:37:16|Stephen Wandling|Re: Lead|Gord, I assume this pot would be adaptable to feeding right into the keel, ala Brent's drawing? If so, I would be interested. Stephen Gord Schnell wrote: > Jon > I have a lead pot I used to melt and pour 50 lb. billets. > Works great with "tiger torch or Briquettes and an air > blower. > It is SS, has a 2" gate valve for dumping the molten lead > and is mounted on a stand. > Let me know if your interested. > Gord > > > jonhackett44 wrote: > > > > Hey Gang, > > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting > > method. I > > have salvaged wheel weights. > > Any thoughts? > > 36' Bilge keeler > > Jon > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > [click here] > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of Service. > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "The failure to strive for completeness is probably the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen|
2024|2006|2003-08-11 04:56:22|edward_stoneuk|Re: Deck Beam Production|Brian, I agree with Terry, first choice would be flat bar rolled to the required radius at a contract section bender. Problems might be: 1. There is no flat bar available in that dimension. 2. There is no section bender available who can roll that dimension flat bar on edge. 3. If there is all of the above you may find that the flat bar when rolled on edge has, because of its deep 5" section a slight conical twist to it. This should not occur though as the rolled radius is very large. Ask the section bender about this. 4. Occasionally because of the slightly different springiness of the flat bars running through the same roll setting the rolled radius varies. This is usually very small and can be rectified as Gary has said by hitting the bar over an anvil on the face close to the edge so that the edge lengthens. Regards, Ted|
2025|2025|2003-08-11 09:05:07|Don Taylor|Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Does anyone have any tips on tools (cheap) or techniques for cutting fishmouth ends on ss pipe for use as a handrail? Thanks in advance, Don.|
2026|2025|2003-08-11 09:39:12|edward_stoneuk|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Don, Using a jig and a hole saw more or less the same size as the pipe that the fishmouthed pipe is to be welded too I drilled through 1" Schd 40 316 pipe cutting it in half making two fishmouths to fit over the 1¼" bulwark cap. Use the correct slow cutting speed and plenty of cutting oil or the holesaw will overheat and blunt. Regards, Ted|
2027|2025|2003-08-11 09:44:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Don, Piece of cake if you have a drill press available. All you need is a good support for the tube and hole saw. It helps to have good drill press with a very slow speed setting. If you are doing stanchions cut the tubing double the length, then cut them in half with the hole saw. The hole saw works best when cutting a completely round slug. Get a hole saw with an integral welded on arbor if you have to do open ends. Or drill two pieces end to end at one time. To hold the pipe take a block of wood and drill a hole the size of the pie though it. Then split it so you can slip the pipe in and clamp it together tight. Drill a second through the middle of the block intersecting the first hole. You could even tilt the block to do 45s if you needed them. I used to produce parts for steel frames this way, a couple of hundred at a time. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Taylor" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe > Does anyone have any tips on tools (cheap) or techniques for cutting > fishmouth ends on ss pipe for use as a handrail? > > Thanks in advance, > > > Don. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2028|2025|2003-08-11 09:50:07|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Ted, I saw your post when I finished writing mine. Slow spindle speed is important. A fairly heavy feed rate is important though. Don't go too slow on stainless. It work hardens and then you are done cutting it. On another group we were talking about drilling stainless. I had to make 12 backing plates with 4 -9/32" holes in each plate. I used a drill press running at 500 rpm, 400 would have been better. I used 1 squirt of cutting oil and really leaned on the handle. 48 holes through 1/8" in under five minutes with one cheap drill bit. Not cobalt, no special grind. Could have done another 48 without resharpening too. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe Don, Using a jig and a hole saw more or less the same size as the pipe that the fishmouthed pipe is to be welded too I drilled through 1" Schd 40 316 pipe cutting it in half making two fishmouths to fit over the 1¼" bulwark cap. Use the correct slow cutting speed and plenty of cutting oil or the holesaw will overheat and blunt. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
2029|2025|2003-08-11 10:12:51|edward_stoneuk|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Gary, Yes, I agree about the feed rate. I was using an electric hand drill with a speed controller in a hobby type drill stand. A heavy feed rate slowed the drill down as it is not that powerfull so fortunately the two worked together with a bit of guess work. I would have preferred a proper drill press though. Regards, Ted|
2030|2030|2003-08-11 10:15:03|edward_stoneuk|Mufflers and silencers|Does it matter which way the exhaust goes through a silencer/muffler? I have bought a second-hand ss Ford muffler. The inlet and outlet are offset and looking through one opening the pipe carries on to a chamber at the other end. Looking into this other end the chamber wall is about 3" away. Does any one know which end the inlet is, into the chamber or into the straight pipe or doesn't it matter? Regards, Ted|
2031|732|2003-08-11 10:29:13|Gord Schnell|Re: Lead|I placed it outside the keel with an L-iron tray to carry the lead into the keel. I had difficulties keeping the tray hot enough to prevent "freezing" Ultimately, I placed it to straddle the keel and dumped it in directly. Worked well. Gord Stephen Wandling wrote: > > Gord, > > I assume this pot would be adaptable to feeding right into the keel, ala > Brent's drawing? If so, I would be interested. > Stephen > > Gord Schnell wrote: > > > Jon > > I have a lead pot I used to melt and pour 50 lb. billets. > > Works great with "tiger torch or Briquettes and an air > > blower. > > It is SS, has a 2" gate valve for dumping the molten lead > > and is mounted on a stand. > > Let me know if your interested. > > Gord > > > > > > jonhackett44 wrote: > > > > > > Hey Gang, > > > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting > > > method. I > > > have salvaged wheel weights. > > > Any thoughts? > > > 36' Bilge keeler > > > Jon > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > [click here] > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > > of Service. > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > -- > Regards, > > Stephen Wandling > Project Manager > > Swiftsure Consulting > P: (604) 649-1418 > F: (604) 648-8945 > stephen@... > > "The failure to strive for completeness is probably > the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. > We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically > that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |
2032|2025|2003-08-11 10:33:55|Don Taylor|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Ted and Gary: Thanks for these tips. I especially like the notion of cutting a double length stanchion in the middle, obvious once you say it, but... I had thought that a hole saw might do the job but wondered if it might get 'exciting'. I have a small drill press with a minimum speed (the only one that I have ever used) of 620 rpm. I will ask around the yard to see if anyone has a slower speed drill press. Don.|
2033|2030|2003-08-11 10:39:25|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Mufflers and silencers|Generally the inlet end of a muffler will be larger to slip over the exhaust pipe, and the other end will fit into the swaged end of the next piece, for smoother flow and less leakage. It can make a difference too if the muffler is tuned to cancel resonances, and not just damp them. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Mufflers and silencers > Does it matter which way the exhaust goes through a > silencer/muffler? I have bought a second-hand ss Ford muffler. The > inlet and outlet are offset and looking through one opening the pipe > carries on to a chamber at the other end. Looking into this other > end the chamber wall is about 3" away. Does any one know which end > the inlet is, into the chamber or into the straight pipe or doesn't > it matter? > Regards, > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2034|2025|2003-08-11 10:45:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Don 620 is VERY fast for a 1" round hole saw. That would be a circumference speed of about 150 feet per minute. For stainless you'd want about 40 to 50 fpm. On the other hand the hole saws are fairly cheap and you probably don't need hundreds of cuts. Drill carefully until the pilot drip pops through, you don't want to break a tooth on the way in. Then as soon as the teeth start cutting, begin pushing to ensure you get a healthy chip all the time. Don't ease up at any time unless you just pull it out of the cut quickly. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Taylor" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 10:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe > Ted and Gary: > > Thanks for these tips. I especially like the notion of cutting a > double length stanchion in the middle, obvious once you say it, but... > > I had thought that a hole saw might do the job but wondered if it > might get 'exciting'. > > I have a small drill press with a minimum speed (the only one that I > have ever used) of 620 rpm. I will ask around the yard to see if > anyone has a slower speed drill press. > > Don. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2035|2035|2003-08-11 18:19:53|Stephen Wandling|Main hatch lock|No matter how long I stare at it I can't figure out how to make the main hatch lock as shown in Brent's book, on page 48. I understand it is a 'dog' type latch, so it is probably in the shape of one half of a swastika? ------- | -------- In the crude drawing above, the vertical line passes through the door. What provisions are made for it to turn easily and to not leak where it passes through the door? I am sure there is something I could buy, but I am curious to see how I can make this item. Any help will be appreciated. Stephen|
2036|732|2003-08-11 19:11:28|johan_de_bruin1|Re: Lead|I'm no expert, but I was told by my buddy that's big time into guns & stuff + hunting that he has asked around about making his own lead bullets... He was told in no uncertain terms it is illegal (in Alberta), and that anybody, even as a hobbyist, needs a smelting license. I haven't tried to confirm this with any authority yet... > to use this method. I'm pretty freaked about lead vapour and the > potential poisoning so I am not keen on hauling a container of |
2037|732|2003-08-11 20:56:13|Phillip Allen|Re: Lead|I don't know from Canada, but the way you describe it, anyone who solders a piece of pipe is "smelting" and therefore--guilty--of smelting... As for me, smelting would be the recovery of any metal from its natural state, as in, ore. Gotta watch those politicians, not one of them wants to share power with the people (my ex-wife's one) (the US of A ain't no different...just a matter of relative advancement to date) BTW anyone who uses muzzle loading rifles is likely to be "smelting his own bullets"...go figure...........must be dangerous people! BTW(2) One is more likely to burn himself than to vapor himself...careful with those eyes, remember that stuff is HEAVY so adding scrap to your melting device is an opportunity to overload your "smelter's" support and dump a lotta very hot stuff in your lap. Use common sense, have someone stand by on your first attempt. Wash your hands (use gloves that are easy to jerk off quick...leather work gloves) Phillip johan_de_bruin1 wrote: I'm no expert, but I was told by my buddy that's big time into guns & stuff + hunting that he has asked around about making his own lead bullets... He was told in no uncertain terms it is illegal (in Alberta), and that anybody, even as a hobbyist, needs a smelting license. I haven't tried to confirm this with any authority yet... > to use this method. I'm pretty freaked about lead vapour and the > potential poisoning so I am not keen on hauling a container of Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2038|2025|2003-08-11 21:04:07|keith green|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|To take the guesswork out of the speeds a little, you can use a cutting speed formula us machinists use from time to time. 4 x cutting speed / dia. of drill = rpm Cutting stainlesses varies a bit, but you'd be pretty safe between 20 and 30 surface feet per minute to start. Surface feet per minute = the amount of cutter surface (linear) passing by any given point on the job in a minute. the number 4 is an approximation of pi with a safety factor built in. A 1" hole-saw would run best at around 100 rpm (25 sfpm). Some cutting oil will make all the difference in the world. keith ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Taylor To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:33 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe Ted and Gary: Thanks for these tips. I especially like the notion of cutting a double length stanchion in the middle, obvious once you say it, but... I had thought that a hole saw might do the job but wondered if it might get 'exciting'. I have a small drill press with a minimum speed (the only one that I have ever used) of 620 rpm. I will ask around the yard to see if anyone has a slower speed drill press. Don. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2039|2025|2003-08-11 21:42:56|Stephen Wandling|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|I am waiting for Brent to respond to this long thread but probably he won't . One thing I have learned, to a very small degree, from Brent is what's important when building a steel boat. Cutting a birds mouth on 1" pipe is not on the list. You could use a Zip disk to rough it out and then the grinder to finish it up. You're only looking for a fit that can be properly welded. We're not building pianos are we? keith green wrote: > To take the guesswork out of the speeds a little, you can use a > cutting speed formula us machinists use from time to time. > > 4 x cutting speed / dia. of drill = rpm > > Cutting stainlesses varies a bit, but you'd be pretty safe between 20 > and 30 surface feet per minute to start. Surface feet per minute = the > amount of cutter surface (linear) passing by any given point on the > job in a minute. the number 4 is an approximation of pi with a safety > factor built in. > > A 1" hole-saw would run best at around 100 rpm (25 sfpm). Some cutting > oil will make all the difference in the world. > > ! ; keith > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Taylor > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:33 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel > pipe > > > Ted and Gary: > > Thanks for these tips. I especially like the notion of cutting a > double length stanchion in the middle, obvious once you say it, but... > > I had thought that a hole saw might do the job but wondered if it > might get 'exciting'. > > I have a small drill press with a minimum speed (the only one that I > have ever used) of 620 rpm. I will ask around the yard to see if > anyone has a slower speed drill press. > > Don. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 stephen@... "The failure to strive for completeness is probably the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen|
2040|2025|2003-08-12 00:54:09|mynode|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|I knew someone who fabricated space frame type motorcycle chassis of tubular steel. He fishmouthed the tubing for the complicated joints on a bench grinder with a wheel radiused to the tubing size. He could get a good fit for tig welding much faster than with a hole saw and a commercial fishmouthing jig. - Mark|
2041|2025|2003-08-12 09:54:02|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|Mark, For the odd angles you see in motorcycles you are right. It would take several cuts just to get the angle right. Also, your friend was working with carbon steel, not stainless. Stainless is much tougher to grind that way. It leaves a huge burr you have to keep knocking off. It doesn't file real easy either. And it takes skill, developed over years of doing that kind of work. If you've got the time go for it. How's your welding skills? Can you fill a hole on thin wall tubing, without making it bigger, or a big ugly mess that will never even grind out properly? If you'd rather just go sailing the hole saw is a better bet. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "mynode" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe > I knew someone who fabricated space frame type motorcycle chassis of > tubular steel. He fishmouthed the tubing for the complicated joints > on a bench grinder with a wheel radiused to the tubing size. He could > get a good fit for tig welding much faster than with a hole saw and a > commercial fishmouthing jig. > > - Mark > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2042|2025|2003-08-12 10:00:31|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|So let's save lots of time. Get a 40' shipping container, add bow and a keel, go sailing. Brent's book and plans aren't an all inclusive how-to manual on building a boat. It is more of a minimum acceptable standard. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" To: Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe > I am waiting for Brent to respond to this long thread but probably he > won't . One thing I have learned, to a very small degree, from Brent is > what's important when building a steel boat. Cutting a birds mouth on 1" > pipe is not on the list. You could use a Zip disk to rough it out and > then the grinder to finish it up. You're only looking for a fit that can > be properly welded. We're not building pianos are we? > > keith green wrote: > > > To take the guesswork out of the speeds a little, you can use a > > cutting speed formula us machinists use from time to time. > > > > 4 x cutting speed / dia. of drill = rpm > > > > Cutting stainlesses varies a bit, but you'd be pretty safe between 20 > > and 30 surface feet per minute to start. Surface feet per minute = the > > amount of cutter surface (linear) passing by any given point on the > > job in a minute. the number 4 is an approximation of pi with a safety > > factor built in. > > > > A 1" hole-saw would run best at around 100 rpm (25 sfpm). Some cutting > > oil will make all the difference in the world. > > > > ! ; keith > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Don Taylor > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:33 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel > > pipe > > > > > > Ted and Gary: > > > > Thanks for these tips. I especially like the notion of cutting a > > double length stanchion in the middle, obvious once you say it, but... > > > > I had thought that a hole saw might do the job but wondered if it > > might get 'exciting'. > > > > I have a small drill press with a minimum speed (the only one that I > > have ever used) of 620 rpm. I will ask around the yard to see if > > anyone has a slower speed drill press. > > > > Don. > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > > -- > Regards, > > Stephen Wandling > Project Manager > > Swiftsure Consulting > P: (604) 649-1418 > F: (604) 648-8945 > stephen@... > > "The failure to strive for completeness is probably > the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. > We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically > that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2043|2025|2003-08-12 12:05:03|Gord Schnell|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|My two cents worth. I radiused a course grinding wheel and "fish mouthed" all my stanchions. Furthermore, I welded them with an AC arc. They look fine and the railing system was up in under a day. Gord "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > > Mark, > For the odd angles you see in motorcycles you are right. > It would take > several cuts just to get the angle right. Also, your > friend was working > with carbon steel, not stainless. Stainless is much > tougher to grind that > way. It leaves a huge burr you have to keep knocking off. > It doesn't file > real easy either. And it takes skill, developed over > years of doing that > kind of work. If you've got the time go for it. How's > your welding skills? > Can you fill a hole on thin wall tubing, without making it > bigger, or a big > ugly mess that will never even grind out properly? If > you'd rather just go > sailing the hole saw is a better bet. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "mynode" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 12:54 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss > sch. 40 steel pipe > > > I knew someone who fabricated space frame type > motorcycle chassis of > > tubular steel. He fishmouthed the tubing for the > complicated joints > > on a bench grinder with a wheel radiused to the tubing > size. He could > > get a good fit for tig welding much faster than with a > hole saw and a > > commercial fishmouthing jig. > > > > - Mark > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
2044|2025|2003-08-12 14:45:19|nelstomlinson|Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel pipe|I've seen folks just squish the tops of the pipes flat (heat the ends a bit, then squish in a big bench vise) then clamp and weld. Looks ugly, seems to work just fine. If you start going for pretty, there's just no end to it, in my experience. When I was building my house, an old carpenter friend said ``Go for the rustic look. You want a place to stay warm, not a work of art.'' I guess that the marine equivalent would be ``Go for the workboat look. You want to go places, not a work of art.''. Of course, if you DO want a work of art, that's a different story! Nels --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Wandling wrote: > I am waiting for Brent to respond to this long thread but probably he > won't . One thing I have learned, to a very small degree, from Brent is > what's important when building a steel boat. Cutting a birds mouth on 1" > pipe is not on the list. You could use a Zip disk to rough it out and > then the grinder to finish it up. You're only looking for a fit that can > be properly welded. We're not building pianos are we? > > keith green wrote: > > > To take the guesswork out of the speeds a little, you can use a > > cutting speed formula us machinists use from time to time. > > > > 4 x cutting speed / dia. of drill = rpm > > > > Cutting stainlesses varies a bit, but you'd be pretty safe between 20 > > and 30 surface feet per minute to start. Surface feet per minute = the > > amount of cutter surface (linear) passing by any given point on the > > job in a minute. the number 4 is an approximation of pi with a safety > > factor built in. > > > > A 1" hole-saw would run best at around 100 rpm (25 sfpm). Some cutting > > oil will make all the difference in the world. > > > > ! ; keith > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Don Taylor > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 7:33 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cutting fishmouth ends on ss sch. 40 steel > > pipe > > > > > > Ted and Gary: > > > > Thanks for these tips. I especially like the notion of cutting a > > double length stanchion in the middle, obvious once you say it, but... > > > > I had thought that a hole saw might do the job but wondered if it > > might get 'exciting'. > > > > I have a small drill press with a minimum speed (the only one that I > > have ever used) of 620 rpm. I will ask around the yard to see if > > anyone has a slower speed drill press. > > > > Don. > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > > -- > Regards, > > Stephen Wandling > Project Manager > > Swiftsure Consulting > P: (604) 649-1418 > F: (604) 648-8945 > stephen@S... > > "The failure to strive for completeness is probably > the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. > We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically > that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen |
2045|2011|2003-08-12 23:06:21|brentswain38|Re: Grade of Steele for the Hull|I've used nothing but common mild steel and have had no reason to change. Someone is using scare tactics to get you to spend more money, a common tactic in the boating world. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > I really hate it when I go to make a purchase for something as > straight forward as steel and someone throws in a couple of > curves. > I told them that "mild steel" would do but was told that mild steel > may not bend as desired when needed and a grade "44W" > would be better. Should I be concerned or am I just looking too > hard? JOHN |
2046|2016|2003-08-12 23:08:33|brentswain38|Re: Gewrew Brent|I got your e-mail Brent Swain brentswain38@... --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Okay so I e-mailed Brent direct and "Yahoo" said he no longer > has an e-mail address.... Help!!! John |
2047|732|2003-08-12 23:11:12|brentswain38|Re: Lead|The easiest method is with the caukldron outside the boat as is shown in my book. The weight of wheel weights are 20% clips, so allow for that . They float to the top when the lead melts and can be skimmed off. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" wrote: > Hey Gang, > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting method. I > have salvaged wheel weights. > Any thoughts? > 36' Bilge keeler > Jon |
2048|2048|2003-08-14 20:50:37|berzerker76|Aft mast rigs|I was debating with myself the other day the various rigs and how easily each one could be single handed. Deciding that I needed more knowledge on the subject I went online for some research and came across this interesting site. Tis a tad off from the common sloop but Origami boats are off from normal steel boatbuilding so I was wondering how y'all think it would work. The link is http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/ Gimme some ideas you might have on it. To my amateur eye it would save a lot of work and might increase performance some but like I said I am an amateur. Russyl Neumann|
2049|2048|2003-08-14 23:54:07|Michael Casling|Re: Aft mast rigs|I liked the info on the twin keels but find the rig a bit strange. I think a mast standing straight makes good sense from a structural point of view. There are some misconceptions about twin keels and this info helps. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: berzerker76 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 5:50 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Aft mast rigs I was debating with myself the other day the various rigs and how easily each one could be single handed. Deciding that I needed more knowledge on the subject I went online for some research and came across this interesting site. Tis a tad off from the common sloop but Origami boats are off from normal steel boatbuilding so I was wondering how y'all think it would work. The link is http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/ Gimme some ideas you might have on it. To my amateur eye it would save a lot of work and might increase performance some but like I said I am an amateur. Russyl Neumann Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2050|2048|2003-08-15 03:52:02|Ted Stone|Re: Aft mast rigs|Russyl, This might be a better address for the aft mast info. http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail I would like to sail with one before passing comment. In a cruising rig ease of reefing is what I am looking for and that is why I like the junk rig. I joined the Junk Rig Association and have sailed on many of the other members boats learning the pros and cons of the various different set ups. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2051|2048|2003-08-15 03:57:44|mynode|Re: Aft mast rigs|The aftmost sail looks like an updated version of the back staysail. Back in the 20s and 30s there was a yawl rig called the Foster rig that used a back staysail. As I understand it, this sail was popular for a time, but proved to be fragile given the rigging technology of the time and over time most Foster rigged boats were converted to conventional yawls with the addition of a mizzen. The design in the diagram might be made to work with modern rigging, but you give up a lot of sail area especially since the roach shown in the diagram will not stand without battens which would not be compatible with the roller furling he suggests. - Mark --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "berzerker76" wrote: > The link is http://www.runningtideyachts.com/monohull/ > > Gimme some ideas you might have on it. To my amateur eye it would > save a lot of work and might increase performance some but like I > said I am an amateur. > > Russyl Neumann |
2052|2052|2003-08-16 02:16:00|info@easysoftwareinc.com|G55 updated pictures|This week's pictures added. Port side folded, beginning stbd side. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_construction.htm Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 www.easysoftwareinc.com info@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2053|732|2003-08-16 02:46:39|mark_schlichting11|Re: Lead|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" wrote: > Hey Gang, > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting method. I > have salvaged wheel weights. > Any thoughts? > 36' Bilge keeler > Jon Brent's method of a cauldron outside of the boat worked great. If you are concerned about vapours (and you should be), wear a North mask with appropriate cartridges - ask the retailer which ones you need for the job. A day with enough breeze to blow the fumes away but not too much to rob the heat of the tiger touches/cauldron is an added bonus. My only regret is not wearing long sleeves and pants (despite the heat) to keep the smoke etc off my skin because the lead can probably be absorbed that way too. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC|
2054|2054|2003-08-16 18:58:23|info@easysoftwareinc.com|offshore rigs|For offshore cruising, my preferred rig is a keel stepped, double spreader, cutter rigged masthead sloop. Loss of the mast offshore can be a life threatening event. Thus, the rigging should be such that no single point of failure can bring down the mast. Some people prefer a split rig to deal with this problem. However, it has been my experience that this is often an illusion, as the rigs are usually tied together in a way that ensures that if the main mast goes, the mizzen will as well. Usually the mizzen is rarely if ever used offshore and thus an unnecessary expense. I would not recommend fractional rigs for offshore cruising. Either diamond stays must be used aloft, or the masthead can be subject to whipping motion and shock loads from the topping lift and/or backstays. I have had similar problems with unstayed rigs. The problem can be minimized with a gallows to support the weight of the boom, but it is hard to eliminate. However, unstayed rigs are beyond the scope of this discussion. This discussion is specific to stayed rigs. Keel stepped is preferred to deck stepped, as it significantly increases the column strength of the bottom of the mast, where the loads are greatest. There are a number of harbors that cannot be entered without a tabernacle mast, so there can be reasons why a deck stepped mast is unavoidable. Make sure the foot of the mast is adequately pinned. One well known steel factory boat we sailed with had a deck stepped mast. The mast foot jumped right off the deck and over the side when a shroud failed. The release of tension was so great that the mast acted like a giant spring when the shroud let go. Fortunately this was within sight of land (Tonga). Double spreaders are preferred to single spreaders, as the loss of a shroud on a single spreader rig will usually bring down the mast. The lowers should be conventionally rigged fore and aft, with a combined breaking strength at least equal to the displacement of the boat. I do not feel that the practice of single lowers, supported by aft swept spreaders is suitable for offshore cruising. The intermediates and uppers should be independently rigged. The practice of rigging the uppers and intermediates from the lower spreaders should not be employed as a failure of this single point can bring down the rig. To me there no good reason to use heavier wire on the uppers than on the lowers or intermediates. Even running under spinnaker alone, the loads on the mast increase towards the step, not the head. Thus, heavier wire is wasted on the uppers and is an unnecessary expense and weight aloft. Double backstays should be used. The practice of using a single backstay on a "Y" should be avoided, as a failure of the backstay can bring down the rig. I find double headstays convenient for downwind work. Either they can be permanent, or a jackstay can be run using the spinnaker halyard. I do not like using a spinnaker offshore. I find flying sails dangerous at the best of times, and doubly so when cruising short handed. Spinnakers have a nasty habit of wrapping themselves around the headstay when the boat rolls, and often can only be removed with a knife. As an alternative, two genoas can be rigged on twin headstays, with a spinnaker pole used to hold one genoa to windward. The heavier genoa material does not weld itself to the headstay the way spinnaker material does and having the sails on stays makes them easy to control. On a broad reach, the two genoas will function as a single huge sail, with the wind flowing in the reverse direction over the windward genoa, and you will be surprised at your increase in speed. We used twin genoas for thousands of miles of 10 knot winds in Indonesia with great results. Should you need to turn upwind for any reason, the pole is released, and the two genoas set on the same side of the boat. We used this technique to avoid a problem in Indonesia. We were running under twin genoas, miles from anywhere, when a fishboat downwind of us changed course to intercept. We changed course repeatedly, and they changed course to match. This was a worry, because the area we were in had a problem with fishermen operating as part-time pirates, and the distance was closing rapidly. We turned upwind, bringing the windward genoa alongside the other genoa, and took off. The fishboat was not able to match our speed upwind in the seas, and we eventually left them behind, our motor and sails drawing to their maximum. We find that small fishboats can easily outrun us downwind, but upwind into a sea they have a much tougher time. In this case they chased us for quite awhile before giving up, leaving us to believe they were more than simply curious. Under spinnaker we might have continued along, unwilling to make a sail change, trusting to luck. With the one set of sails that work well both upwind and downwind, we were able to change course early with a minimum of effort, and thus avoided a potentially serious problem. Twin headsails offer the advantage of being able to rapidly increase sail area downwind, when the apparent wind is much less, yet reduce sail immediately for upwind work, when the apparent wind is so much greater. You can leave both sails in place upwind and downwind, and drop one inside the other when convenient. If you can afford it, dual roller reefing headsails offer the prospect of being able to tack the boat without having to pull the headsail across the boat. As you are tacking, furl the leeward headsail, and unfurl the other headsail as you tack through the wind. In this configuration you could get by with a single genoa sheets for each headsail. A staysail can be very handy, especially to windward in heavy weather, or downwind as a steadying or steering sail. In spite of the extra work required to walk the headsail around the staysail, I would recommend the babystay be left permanently rigged for offshore. One production boat we know, with a very strong double spreader rig, had the mast fall down pounding to weather in Hawaii after installing a lever on the babystay. The problem with levers on the standing rigging is that it is no longer standing rigging. If you forget to attach the levers, you become the single point of failure that can bring down the rig. For offshore work, I prefer permanent intermediate back stays in place of running backs. To me, running backs represent an unnecessary risk, especially when sailing short-handed. Using a rule of 1" of drift for every 1' of loft, permanently attach the running backs to turnbuckles immediately aft of the lower shroud chainplates and they can adequately support storm loads on the staysail. These intermediate backstays not only support the staysail. They hold the main out of the spreaders downwind, which can be a real benefit when trying to reef while running. However, they will restrict the boom from being fully extended, which should be protected with a preventer. For offshore work this is not a problem because it is rare that conditions are calm enough to allow the boom to be fully extended without inducing too much roll. Offshore in seas, we more often have a reefed main amidships to prevent the roll, and use the headsail(s) to drive the boat. The ability to reef the sails downwind is a crucial safety factor for offshore sailors. Before you invests in a fully battened main sail, make sure you have a way to reef this downwind. If you need to turn the boat into the wind to reef the main, you have a potentially very dangerous situation on your hands. In storm conditions and breaking seas, the last thing you want is a boat that must be brought into the wind to make a sail change. Typically, I make all our sail changes off the wind. Changing a headsail upwind can be a serious challenge offshore. It is much simpler to turn the boat downwind and change a headsail that is blanketed by the main. Unless you are racing, a loss of 5 or 10 minutes to windward is not significant, compared to the increased safety. Reefing the main downwind can be a challenge, because the battens and sail will try and foul themselves in the rigging. I avoid this problem by keeping pressure on the aft reefing lines while reefing the main. This pressure holds the main out of the rigging. This means having the aft reefing lines permanently installed, with lots of cleats to hold the lines as you adjust the reefs. Shorthanded this is can be challenge, as you often need to bring in the reefing lines at the exact same time you let out the main halyard. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones www.easysoftwareinc.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2055|2054|2003-08-18 20:14:33|brentswain38|Re: offshore rigs|Roller furlers are cheaper than new hanks, about $100 worth of materials for the one in my book. When running downwind with the jib poled out and the main vanged out , you can gain considerable speed by setting another jib between the forestay and the main to catch the wind which goes between the main and poled out jib. Double spreader rigs are stronger sthwartships but need intermediat or running backs to get adequate strength fore and aft. They are mainly for narrow boats with a narrow shroud base and are unneccesary on wider boats. I've sailed several times home from the South Pacific with a runner set up and untouched from 18 degrees south to 33 degrees north. I havent found them to be any incovenience and prefer them as they give a better angle than permanent ones could.Using a preventer on the main at all times when running eliminates any risk associated with runninng backstays Deck stepped masts are oK as long as they are strong enough. They leave one less potential leak. I've seen many keel stepped masts crack where they go through the deck. There is a tremendous point load on them there.Deck stepped masts are a lot easier to step and unstep. With adequate sized galvanized rigging and turbuckles,all well painted, rigging failure is extremely unlikely. Failure is far more common with stainless rigging.I don't see justification for the hassels of a keel stepped mast, or a double spreader rig. Double lowers should be used aon all offshore boats to stp the pumping of a mast in a head sea; it pumps both ways. I asked a client at Fanning island what he thought of his new fully battened mainsail. He said " Battens suck". When he got back to BC from New Zealand I asked him again. he said" Battens still suck"Other cruisers have said the same thing. I've always cut the roach off a mainsail and run a foot wide panel of sailcloth the full length of the leech, the last time using the piece I cut off ,with the seams staggered.This eliminates the need for battens and triples the life of the mainsail.A cover on the roller furling headsail does the same re-inforcing job. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > For offshore cruising, my preferred rig is a keel stepped, double spreader, cutter rigged masthead sloop. > > Loss of the mast offshore can be a life threatening event. Thus, the rigging should be such that no single point of failure can bring down the mast. Some people prefer a split rig to deal with this problem. However, it has been my experience that this is often an illusion, as the rigs are usually tied together in a way that ensures that if the main mast goes, the mizzen will as well. Usually the mizzen is rarely if ever used offshore and thus an unnecessary expense. > > I would not recommend fractional rigs for offshore cruising. Either diamond stays must be used aloft, or the masthead can be subject to whipping motion and shock loads from the topping lift and/or backstays. I have had similar problems with unstayed rigs. The problem can be minimized with a gallows to support the weight of the boom, but it is hard to eliminate. However, unstayed rigs are beyond the scope of this discussion. This discussion is specific to stayed rigs. > > Keel stepped is preferred to deck stepped, as it significantly increases the column strength of the bottom of the mast, where the loads are greatest. There are a number of harbors that cannot be entered without a tabernacle mast, so there can be reasons why a deck stepped mast is unavoidable. Make sure the foot of the mast is adequately pinned. One well known steel factory boat we sailed with had a deck stepped mast. The mast foot jumped right off the deck and over the side when a shroud failed. The release of tension was so great that the mast acted like a giant spring when the shroud let go. Fortunately this was within sight of land (Tonga). > > Double spreaders are preferred to single spreaders, as the loss of a shroud on a single spreader rig will usually bring down the mast. The lowers should be conventionally rigged fore and aft, with a combined breaking strength at least equal to the displacement of the boat. I do not feel that the practice of single lowers, supported by aft swept spreaders is suitable for offshore cruising. > > The intermediates and uppers should be independently rigged. The practice of rigging the uppers and intermediates from the lower spreaders should not be employed as a failure of this single point can bring down the rig. To me there no good reason to use heavier wire on the uppers than on the lowers or intermediates. Even running under spinnaker alone, the loads on the mast increase towards the step, not the head. Thus, heavier wire is wasted on the uppers and is an unnecessary expense and weight aloft. > > Double backstays should be used. The practice of using a single backstay on a "Y" should be avoided, as a failure of the backstay can bring down the rig. > > I find double headstays convenient for downwind work. Either they can be permanent, or a jackstay can be run using the spinnaker halyard. I do not like using a spinnaker offshore. I find flying sails dangerous at the best of times, and doubly so when cruising short handed. Spinnakers have a nasty habit of wrapping themselves around the headstay when the boat rolls, and often can only be removed with a knife. > > As an alternative, two genoas can be rigged on twin headstays, with a spinnaker pole used to hold one genoa to windward. The heavier genoa material does not weld itself to the headstay the way spinnaker material does and having the sails on stays makes them easy to control. On a broad reach, the two genoas will function as a single huge sail, with the wind flowing in the reverse direction over the windward genoa, and you will be surprised at your increase in speed. > > We used twin genoas for thousands of miles of 10 knot winds in Indonesia with great results. Should you need to turn upwind for any reason, the pole is released, and the two genoas set on the same side of the boat. We used this technique to avoid a problem in Indonesia. We were running under twin genoas, miles from anywhere, when a fishboat downwind of us changed course to intercept. We changed course repeatedly, and they changed course to match. This was a worry, because the area we were in had a problem with fishermen operating as part-time pirates, and the distance was closing rapidly. We turned upwind, bringing the windward genoa alongside the other genoa, and took off. > > The fishboat was not able to match our speed upwind in the seas, and we eventually left them behind, our motor and sails drawing to their maximum. We find that small fishboats can easily outrun us downwind, but upwind into a sea they have a much tougher time. In this case they chased us for quite awhile before giving up, leaving us to believe they were more than simply curious. Under spinnaker we might have continued along, unwilling to make a sail change, trusting to luck. With the one set of sails that work well both upwind and downwind, we were able to change course early with a minimum of effort, and thus avoided a potentially serious problem. > > Twin headsails offer the advantage of being able to rapidly increase sail area downwind, when the apparent wind is much less, yet reduce sail immediately for upwind work, when the apparent wind is so much greater. You can leave both sails in place upwind and downwind, and drop one inside the other when convenient. If you can afford it, dual roller reefing headsails offer the prospect of being able to tack the boat without having to pull the headsail across the boat. As you are tacking, furl the leeward headsail, and unfurl the other headsail as you tack through the wind. In this configuration you could get by with a single genoa sheets for each headsail. > > A staysail can be very handy, especially to windward in heavy weather, or downwind as a steadying or steering sail. In spite of the extra work required to walk the headsail around the staysail, I would recommend the babystay be left permanently rigged for offshore. One production boat we know, with a very strong double spreader rig, had the mast fall down pounding to weather in Hawaii after installing a lever on the babystay. The problem with levers on the standing rigging is that it is no longer standing rigging. If you forget to attach the levers, you become the single point of failure that can bring down the rig. > > For offshore work, I prefer permanent intermediate back stays in place of running backs. To me, running backs represent an unnecessary risk, especially when sailing short-handed. Using a rule of 1" of drift for every 1' of loft, permanently attach the running backs to turnbuckles immediately aft of the lower shroud chainplates and they can adequately support storm loads on the staysail. > > These intermediate backstays not only support the staysail. They hold the main out of the spreaders downwind, which can be a real benefit when trying to reef while running. However, they will restrict the boom from being fully extended, which should be protected with a preventer. For offshore work this is not a problem because it is rare that conditions are calm enough to allow the boom to be fully extended without inducing too much roll. Offshore in seas, we more often have a reefed main amidships to prevent the roll, and use the headsail(s) to drive the boat. > > The ability to reef the sails downwind is a crucial safety factor for offshore sailors. Before you invests in a fully battened main sail, make sure you have a way to reef this downwind. If you need to turn the boat into the wind to reef the main, you have a potentially very dangerous situation on your hands. In storm conditions and breaking seas, the last thing you want is a boat that must be brought into the wind to make a sail change. > > Typically, I make all our sail changes off the wind. Changing a headsail upwind can be a serious challenge offshore. It is much simpler to turn the boat downwind and change a headsail that is blanketed by the main. Unless you are racing, a loss of 5 or 10 minutes to windward is not significant, compared to the increased safety. > > Reefing the main downwind can be a challenge, because the battens and sail will try and foul themselves in the rigging. I avoid this problem by keeping pressure on the aft reefing lines while reefing the main. This pressure holds the main out of the rigging. This means having the aft reefing lines permanently installed, with lots of cleats to hold the lines as you adjust the reefs. Shorthanded this is can be challenge, as you often need to bring in the reefing lines at the exact same time you let out the main halyard. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > www.easysoftwareinc.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2056|732|2003-08-18 20:19:12|brentswain38|Re: Lead|I hooked up a face mask( a surplus gas mask will do) to 24 feet of plastic sump drain hose from the hardware store, price $7. Breathing air from 24 feet away is as safe as you can get ,especially upwind with a breeze blowing.It's easier to suck air through 24 feet of 1 1`/4 inch plastic hose than through a filtre. The check valves in the mask make sure it goes in thre right direction. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark_schlichting11" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jonhackett44" > wrote: > > Hey Gang, > > Udecided on the quickest, easiest lead pouring/melting method. I > > have salvaged wheel weights. > > Any thoughts? > > 36' Bilge keeler > > Jon > > Brent's method of a cauldron outside of the boat worked great. If > you are concerned about vapours (and you should be), wear a North > mask with appropriate cartridges - ask the retailer which ones you > need for the job. A day with enough breeze to blow the fumes away > but not too much to rob the heat of the tiger touches/cauldron is an > added bonus. My only regret is not wearing long sleeves and pants > (despite the heat) to keep the smoke etc off my skin because the > lead can probably be absorbed that way too. > > Mark S. > Costa Vida > Shearwater, BC |
2057|2057|2003-08-19 05:01:09|sae140|Junk Rig ?|Hi Brent In view of your comments regarding fully battened mainsails, I wonder if you'd be willing to express an opinion regarding the suitability of junk sails for your designs ? Although still a rare sight, this rig is beginning to gain popularity, and I'd have thought would fit in well with your DIY- build approach ... ? Also, as you spend your cruising time away from electrically 'hot' marinas, I'd be interested to learn of your experiences with sacrificial zincs, and what your recommendations are. Regards Colin|
2058|2057|2003-08-19 14:49:18|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rig ?|Having made two trips home from Tonga in the last three years , if I'd had a junk rig, I'd still be out there. A couple of years ago we had a race with a couple of junk rigged 40 and 44 footers against my sloop rigged 31 footer and 36 footer . The sloops were pointing 30 degrees higher and going faster to windward.The junks were much faster downwind.Coming home from Tonga is windward work for 4,000 miles. The last time , was unable to make enough easting to reach Kauai and had to pass west of it. With a junk rig I would have lost so much easting I would have almost had to come home via Japan. One of the junk rig owners we raced against likes to tell people that he beat us to windward while showing them the video of us clearly sailing circles around him. This type of self delusion is not uncommon with junk rig enthusiasts. Some boats have brass plaques saying something like " Powered by Ford " or "Powered by Caterpillar" It's been suggested that there should be one for Junk riggers saying "Powered by Bullshit" You can't get much efficiency out of an airfoil with a log on one side of it, no matter what else you do to it.Take the claims of junk rig owners with a heavy grain of salt and skepticism. Believe they outpoint marconi riggs only when you see it with your own eyes.I once left Mexico in my 31 footer at the same time as a 40 foot junk rigged schooner. We sailed more or less the same course. I took 38 days to get back to BC he took 57 days.Till the day he died he claimed his boat could outsail any marconi rig to windward, anytime. Some claim a junk rig is simple and cheap. The 44 footer has 300 feet of line in it's rinning rigging. That , and the maze of battens , parrels, hayards, etc ,is far more complex and expensive that the simple standing rigging of a sloop.As for cheaper, I can walk into a used boater's equipment store , buy a sail for a sloop rig for a fraction the cost of materials and have it up and sailing in half an hour .With a junk rig you have to build everything yourself or have it custom built. If you build it yourself out of the cheapest materials, what do you value your time at, time you could spend cruising, which is what it's supposed to be all about. A friend who has been cruising with a junk rig for many years and probably knows more about them tan anyone around here told me that when people tell him they plan to use a junk rig , the first thing he tries to do is talk them out of it. If that proves impossible, he'll tell them how to do it. The only reason he hasn't changed his rig is because he can't afford it. With roller furling and slab reefing, I can tie a reef in a mainsail in under a minute and furl a bit of jib in less time. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Hi Brent > > In view of your comments regarding fully battened mainsails, I wonder > if you'd be willing to express an opinion regarding the suitability > of junk sails for your designs ? > Although still a rare sight, this rig is beginning to gain > popularity, and I'd have thought would fit in well with your DIY- > build approach ... ? > > Also, as you spend your cruising time away from electrically 'hot' > marinas, I'd be interested to learn of your experiences with > sacrificial zincs, and what your recommendations are. > > Regards > > Colin |
2059|2057|2003-08-19 16:27:44|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Junk Rig ?|The junk rig has been getting a lot of press lately, and I think has always found favour with people working to a budget, and people looking for an easy-to-handle rig. Brent's rig as designed for his boats is pretty simple, though. There are so many variations on the junk rig (for instance, the difference between Vietnamese, Chinese, Riverine, Coastal and Ocean-going rigs and so on) that I would hesitate to make a general statement about it, but I do have some first hand experience and observations to put in the stew pot here. The performance of any rig should be looked at subjectively, and in context of the hull it is attempting to drive, plus the person handling it. Phil Bolger, has explored more different rigs than anyone, and still can't find himself wholly liking the junk, despite repeated pleas to him to design for it. Instead, his instincts and experience have led him to a type of hybrid, the "Chinese Gaff" rig, which is basically a very heavily battened gaff rig. It has the advantage of still breaking the pressures on a sail up into smaller pieces, and has the same aerodynamics on either tack. It is a quiet rig, and reputedly easy to handle. With all of it's sail area aft of the mast, however, it doesn't have the junk's balanced wing, nor can it be moved fore and aft like a junk (though how often people adjust a junk in this fashion once they have it tweaked to their liking is open to conjecture). It may or may not be a reflection on the rig as a whole, but I do have some recent direct observations of a local 44 foot junk schooner 's performance to windward which gave me pause for thought. I hope my critique of her performance doesn't ruffle the feathers of any members of the group who favour junk rig, but these are simply my subjective observations. She was tacking south down Baynes Sound a few days ago, and I had the opportunity to see right off my bedroom balcony how she worked on one tack vs the other. The wind was out against them, coming out of the south at about 10-14 knots. Here is what I saw: on her eastward tack, coming towards me, with the battens on the leeward side of the mast and held away by the wind pressure, she charged along quite smartly, making the 2.5 kilometre crossing from one side of the sound to the other in good time. The sails had a distinctly air-foiled shape as they bulged out away from the mast. Just below my house she came about in the relaxed manner that junks are known for. But once pointed on her new tack, she just stalled out, not making any headway, with even a little drift downwind. Now the battens were pressed heavily against the mast (both fore and aft sails were on the same side, by the way), such that there was a distinct "bump" where the sail material contacted the mast, and if there were a smoke stream going over the sail I'm sure I would have seen the confused vortexes of wind generated by the "log" in the way of the airflow on the windward side of the sails -- no doubt robbing a lot of the thrust one would need to get the boat moving. The skipper bore away from the wind to try a broad reach and she still didn't appear to move much, even starting to crab sideways downwind. If she had been on a lee shore that would have been the end of her, is all I could think. Eventually she began to get a little way on, but very reluctantly so, and not nearly as close to the wind as her previous tack. She seemed to struggle her way across the sound very reluctantly on a broad reach. Any more, and he'd have been sailing downwind. The boat made it's way in this ponderous way across the sound to the other side where it could finally turn around and make a more successful run. What happened? A friend said that the function of the junk rig, like any rig, is also a function of the person handling that rig but I know the owner of this boat is a seasoned sailor. Tom Colvin told him that non-asians never seem to sail them right (excluding himself, of course!), but I don't know how much to make of that. What I saw happening is unfortunately the same thing that used to happen to me in my junk-rigged Grand Pelican (18 footer): When on the tack which favoured the fullest shape of sail (battens held away from the mast) without the vortice-inducing bump caused by the mast pressing against the cloth, the boat would move along happily. Then, on the opposite tack, the boat would not make to windward, meaning that one tack would be wasted on a broad reach until the opposite tack could be taken and the rig allowed to work on the favourable side of the mast. I found this quite irritating, and it more often than not resulted in me firing up the outboard to get to windward. If I had removed all the battens and used the rig as a dipping lug-sail, I could have dipped the yard and put it on the other side to get some nice sail shape happening, but this obviates the intention of the junk rig to be easy and relaxing to use. Some junk schooners hang the fore sail on one side of the mast, and the aft sail on the other (see the cover of Annie Hill's book) thereby having at least one sail on the good side on any given tack, but the other day the observed 44 foot junk had both sails on the same side. On the surface, the junk seems like a "people's rig", and they are beautiful to watch (though beauty is not very relevant when you are trying to claw off a lee shore and save your boat and the life of your crew). I like how quiet they are, and how sedately they come about without undue anxiety, though it disturbed me to watch that junk the other day just sit there after coming about. Some rigs on some peoples' boats have worked great, while other rigs spend a lot of time wrapped up while the boat motors everywhere even though the wind is up. Obviously there is something worth exploring there, and I continue to watch with interest the ongoing research into the rig, despite my misgivings. I have also seen boats like Allen Farrell's China Cloud, where the rig worked wonderfully (and it should be noted that he designed the hull and rig to work together, whereas Brent never intended his boats to be junk-rigged.). The fully battened aspect really tames the tendency of a sail to flog, and as long as there is not rigging to get it hooked up on you've also got an easy-reefing sail. Junk rig proponents point out that the aerodynamics of the junk are in a different realm than marconi, operating on different principals, and that vortex-induction may even play a role in generating lift on the junk sail. That said, it may be a mistake to attempt to make the junk try to act like an airplane wing, if it should be working with a different aerodynamic principal altogether. If that is the case, then I'd make sure my junk rig is not simply cobbled together without thought to the best way the technology should be used. If cost were not a factor, it would be amusing to rig the same hull with a proper junk rig, then try it again with marconi, and see which one a person prefers. But even if I had the extra money to expend on such a fancy, I think I'd rather throw it at my cruising fund and go sailing! Alex|
2060|2057|2003-08-19 16:48:31|Stephen Wandling|Re: Junk Rig ?|Alex, Thanks for the great story. You should be able to use your great writing skills to keep your cruising fund topped up! Two things: Because of your mention of the bulge at the mast when on the tack to the West, I imagine the battens are too "soft" in the effort to create the type of aerodynamics that western minds insist on imposing on this 2000 year old design. Secondly, Blondie Hasler has done more to make the junk rig currently popular than probably any other person around. He has also done his share in giving it a bad name. He wanted a rig for the Atlantic Singlehanded race that he could run from inside Jester and he succeeded at that task with his version of the junk rig. Others have built to his specs and then complained that it doesn't sail to windward. Since sailing well to windward was never a criteria for Blondie it's no wonder. My point: Stick to the classic asian design, paying attention to all of the details. You may well end up with a rig that holds it's own with western rigs. They are out there. Maybe it won't point quite as high, but it may well get to the finish line at the same time! I will junk rig my engineless steel boat. I'll give you a shout before I come through Baynes Sound. Stephen Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > The junk rig has been getting a lot of press lately, and I think has > always > found favour with people working to a budget, and people looking for an > easy-to-handle rig. Brent's rig as designed for his boats is pretty > simple, > though. > > There are so many variations on the junk rig (for instance, the difference > between Vietnamese, Chinese, Riverine, Coastal and Ocean-going rigs and so > on) that I would hesitate to make a general statement about it, but I do > have some first hand experience and observations to put in the stew pot > here. > > The performance of any rig should be looked at subjectively, and in > context > of the hull it is attempting to drive, plus the person handling it. Phil > Bolger, has explored more different rigs than anyone, and still can't find > himself wholly liking the junk, despite repeated pleas to him to > design for > it. Instead, his instincts and experience have led him to a type of > hybrid, > the "Chinese Gaff" rig, which is basically a very heavily battened > gaff rig. > It has the advantage of still breaking the pressures on a sail up into > smaller pieces, and has the same aerodynamics on either tack. It is a > quiet > rig, and reputedly easy to handle. With all of it's sail area aft of the > mast, however, it doesn't have the junk's balanced wing, nor can it be > moved > fore and aft like a junk (though how often people adjust a junk in this > fashion once they have it tweaked to their liking is open to conjecture). > > It may or may not be a reflection on the rig as a whole, but I do have > some > recent direct > observations of a local 44 foot junk schooner 's performance to windward > which > gave me pause for thought. I hope my critique of her performance doesn't > ruffle the feathers of any members of the group who favour junk rig, but > these are simply my subjective observations. She was tacking south down > Baynes Sound a > few days ago, and I had the opportunity to see right off my bedroom > balcony > how she worked on one tack vs the other. The wind was out against them, > coming out of the south at about > 10-14 knots. Here is what I saw: on her eastward tack, coming towards me, > with the battens on the leeward side of the mast and held away by the wind > pressure, she charged along quite smartly, making the 2.5 kilometre > crossing > from one side of the > sound to the other in good time. The sails had a distinctly air-foiled > shape > as they bulged out away from the mast. Just below my house she came about > in the > relaxed manner that junks are known for. But once pointed on her new tack, > she just stalled > out, not making any headway, with even a little drift downwind. Now the > battens were pressed heavily against the mast (both fore and aft sails > were > on the same side, by the way), such that there was a distinct "bump" where > the sail material contacted the mast, and if there were a smoke stream > going > over the sail I'm sure I would have seen the confused vortexes of wind > generated by the "log" in the way of the airflow on the windward side > of the > sails -- no doubt robbing a lot of the thrust one would need to get the > boat moving. The > skipper bore away from the wind to try a broad reach and she still > didn't appear to move much, even starting to crab sideways downwind. > If she > had been on a lee shore that would have been the end of her, is all I > could > think. Eventually she began to get a little way on, but very reluctantly > so, > and not nearly as close to the wind as her previous tack. She seemed to > struggle her way across the sound very reluctantly on a broad reach. Any > more, and he'd have been sailing downwind. The boat made it's way in this > ponderous way across the sound to the other side where it could > finally turn > around and make a more successful run. > > What happened? A friend said that the function of the junk rig, like any > rig, is also a function of the person handling that rig but I know the > owner > of this boat > is a seasoned sailor. Tom Colvin told him that non-asians never seem to > sail them right (excluding himself, of course!), but I don't know how much > to make of that. > > What I saw happening is unfortunately the same thing that used to > happen to > me in my junk-rigged Grand Pelican (18 footer): When on the tack which > favoured the fullest shape of sail (battens held away from the mast) > without > the vortice-inducing bump caused by the mast pressing against the > cloth, the > boat would move along happily. Then, on the opposite tack, the boat would > not make to windward, meaning that one tack would be wasted on a broad > reach > until the opposite tack could be taken and the rig allowed to work on the > favourable side of the mast. I found this quite irritating, and it more > often than not > resulted in me firing up the outboard to get to windward. If I had removed > all the battens and used the rig as a dipping lug-sail, I could have > dipped > the yard and put it on the other side to get some nice sail shape > happening, > but this obviates the intention of the junk rig to be easy and relaxing to > use. > > Some junk schooners hang the fore sail on one side of the mast, and the > aft sail on the other (see the cover of Annie Hill's book) thereby > having at > least one sail on the good side on any given tack, but the other day the > observed 44 foot junk had both sails on the same side. > > On the surface, the junk seems like a "people's rig", and they are > beautiful > to watch (though beauty is not very relevant when you are trying to > claw off > a lee shore and save your boat and the life of your crew). I like how > quiet > they are, and how sedately they come about without undue anxiety, > though it > disturbed me to watch that junk the other day just sit there after coming > about. Some rigs on some peoples' boats have worked great, while other > rigs > spend a lot of time wrapped up while the boat motors everywhere even > though > the wind is up. Obviously there is something worth exploring there, and I > continue to watch with interest the ongoing research into the rig, despite > my misgivings. I have also seen boats like Allen Farrell's China Cloud, > where the rig worked wonderfully (and it should be noted that he designed > the hull and rig to work together, whereas Brent never intended his > boats to > be junk-rigged.). The fully battened aspect really tames the tendency of a > sail to flog, and as long as there is not rigging to get it hooked up on > you've also got an easy-reefing sail. Junk rig proponents point out that > the aerodynamics of the junk are in a different realm than marconi, > operating on different principals, and that vortex-induction may even > play a > role in generating lift on the junk sail. That said, it may be a > mistake to > attempt to make the junk try to act like an airplane wing, if it should be > working with a different aerodynamic principal altogether. If that is the > case, then I'd make sure my junk rig is not simply cobbled together > without > thought to the best way the technology should be used. > > If cost were not a factor, it would be amusing to rig the same hull with a > proper junk rig, then try it again with marconi, and see which one a > person > prefers. But even if I had the extra money to expend on such a fancy, I > think I'd rather throw it at my cruising fund and go sailing! > > Alex > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . -- Regards, Stephen Wandling Project Manager Swiftsure Consulting P: (604) 649-1418 F: (604) 648-8945 "The failure to strive for completeness is probably the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen|
2061|2057|2003-08-19 19:20:13|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Junk Rig ?|I've read this thread with great interest. I'll bet I know why the Junk rig was developed in the first place. Sails have tremendous loads placed on them by the wind. A Marconi rig has enormous loads at the corners. Imagine what those loads did to the fabrics 2000 years ago, 200 years ago, 20 year ago, and today. The junk rig provided more support for the fabric than any other rig out there. If your sails rip and you don't have a motor, you don't have much going for you. So you build a rig that breaks the sail up in smaller panels, and take most of the loads on sturdy wooden battens. Then if a panel blows out you have only a small reduction in your ability to sail, and you may get a chance to relate how wonderful your new rig is. Aerodynamics is like any other area of physics. There is a lot we don't know about in every area, but there aren't any BIG mysteries about how things in the physical world work. The 'big breakthrough's are all relatively small and incremental in every field of physics. That junk rigs use some other basic theory of physics to explain how they work is just wishful thinking. It's a lot like the truck drivers back in the seventies during the first fuel crunch claiming that their rigs were 'designed' and 'geared' for 70 mph, and running at 55 was actually using more fuel. Guess what, trucks have the equivalent of 'hull speed' aerodynamically. Above a certain speed the drag goes WAY up and the fuel economy goes way down. Anybody want to buy a car that runs on water? Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Wandling" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Junk Rig ? > Alex, > > Thanks for the great story. You should be able to use your great writing > skills to keep your cruising fund topped up! > > Two things: > > Because of your mention of the bulge at the mast when on the tack to the > West, I imagine the battens are too "soft" in the effort to create the > type of aerodynamics that western minds insist on imposing on this 2000 > year old design. > > Secondly, Blondie Hasler has done more to make the junk rig currently > popular than probably any other person around. He has also done his > share in giving it a bad name. He wanted a rig for the Atlantic > Singlehanded race that he could run from inside Jester and he succeeded > at that task with his version of the junk rig. Others have built to his > specs and then complained that it doesn't sail to windward. Since > sailing well to windward was never a criteria for Blondie it's no wonder. > > My point: Stick to the classic asian design, paying attention to all of > the details. You may well end up with a rig that holds it's own with > western rigs. They are out there. Maybe it won't point quite as high, > but it may well get to the finish line at the same time! > > I will junk rig my engineless steel boat. I'll give you a shout before I > come through Baynes Sound. > > Stephen > > Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > > > The junk rig has been getting a lot of press lately, and I think has > > always > > found favour with people working to a budget, and people looking for an > > easy-to-handle rig. Brent's rig as designed for his boats is pretty > > simple, > > though. > > > > There are so many variations on the junk rig (for instance, the difference > > between Vietnamese, Chinese, Riverine, Coastal and Ocean-going rigs and so > > on) that I would hesitate to make a general statement about it, but I do > > have some first hand experience and observations to put in the stew pot > > here. > > > > The performance of any rig should be looked at subjectively, and in > > context > > of the hull it is attempting to drive, plus the person handling it. Phil > > Bolger, has explored more different rigs than anyone, and still can't find > > himself wholly liking the junk, despite repeated pleas to him to > > design for > > it. Instead, his instincts and experience have led him to a type of > > hybrid, > > the "Chinese Gaff" rig, which is basically a very heavily battened > > gaff rig. > > It has the advantage of still breaking the pressures on a sail up into > > smaller pieces, and has the same aerodynamics on either tack. It is a > > quiet > > rig, and reputedly easy to handle. With all of it's sail area aft of the > > mast, however, it doesn't have the junk's balanced wing, nor can it be > > moved > > fore and aft like a junk (though how often people adjust a junk in this > > fashion once they have it tweaked to their liking is open to conjecture). > > > > It may or may not be a reflection on the rig as a whole, but I do have > > some > > recent direct > > observations of a local 44 foot junk schooner 's performance to windward > > which > > gave me pause for thought. I hope my critique of her performance doesn't > > ruffle the feathers of any members of the group who favour junk rig, but > > these are simply my subjective observations. She was tacking south down > > Baynes Sound a > > few days ago, and I had the opportunity to see right off my bedroom > > balcony > > how she worked on one tack vs the other. The wind was out against them, > > coming out of the south at about > > 10-14 knots. Here is what I saw: on her eastward tack, coming towards me, > > with the battens on the leeward side of the mast and held away by the wind > > pressure, she charged along quite smartly, making the 2.5 kilometre > > crossing > > from one side of the > > sound to the other in good time. The sails had a distinctly air-foiled > > shape > > as they bulged out away from the mast. Just below my house she came about > > in the > > relaxed manner that junks are known for. But once pointed on her new tack, > > she just stalled > > out, not making any headway, with even a little drift downwind. Now the > > battens were pressed heavily against the mast (both fore and aft sails > > were > > on the same side, by the way), such that there was a distinct "bump" where > > the sail material contacted the mast, and if there were a smoke stream > > going > > over the sail I'm sure I would have seen the confused vortexes of wind > > generated by the "log" in the way of the airflow on the windward side > > of the > > sails -- no doubt robbing a lot of the thrust one would need to get the > > boat moving. The > > skipper bore away from the wind to try a broad reach and she still > > didn't appear to move much, even starting to crab sideways downwind. > > If she > > had been on a lee shore that would have been the end of her, is all I > > could > > think. Eventually she began to get a little way on, but very reluctantly > > so, > > and not nearly as close to the wind as her previous tack. She seemed to > > struggle her way across the sound very reluctantly on a broad reach. Any > > more, and he'd have been sailing downwind. The boat made it's way in this > > ponderous way across the sound to the other side where it could > > finally turn > > around and make a more successful run. > > > > What happened? A friend said that the function of the junk rig, like any > > rig, is also a function of the person handling that rig but I know the > > owner > > of this boat > > is a seasoned sailor. Tom Colvin told him that non-asians never seem to > > sail them right (excluding himself, of course!), but I don't know how much > > to make of that. > > > > What I saw happening is unfortunately the same thing that used to > > happen to > > me in my junk-rigged Grand Pelican (18 footer): When on the tack which > > favoured the fullest shape of sail (battens held away from the mast) > > without > > the vortice-inducing bump caused by the mast pressing against the > > cloth, the > > boat would move along happily. Then, on the opposite tack, the boat would > > not make to windward, meaning that one tack would be wasted on a broad > > reach > > until the opposite tack could be taken and the rig allowed to work on the > > favourable side of the mast. I found this quite irritating, and it more > > often than not > > resulted in me firing up the outboard to get to windward. If I had removed > > all the battens and used the rig as a dipping lug-sail, I could have > > dipped > > the yard and put it on the other side to get some nice sail shape > > happening, > > but this obviates the intention of the junk rig to be easy and relaxing to > > use. > > > > Some junk schooners hang the fore sail on one side of the mast, and the > > aft sail on the other (see the cover of Annie Hill's book) thereby > > having at > > least one sail on the good side on any given tack, but the other day the > > observed 44 foot junk had both sails on the same side. > > > > On the surface, the junk seems like a "people's rig", and they are > > beautiful > > to watch (though beauty is not very relevant when you are trying to > > claw off > > a lee shore and save your boat and the life of your crew). I like how > > quiet > > they are, and how sedately they come about without undue anxiety, > > though it > > disturbed me to watch that junk the other day just sit there after coming > > about. Some rigs on some peoples' boats have worked great, while other > > rigs > > spend a lot of time wrapped up while the boat motors everywhere even > > though > > the wind is up. Obviously there is something worth exploring there, and I > > continue to watch with interest the ongoing research into the rig, despite > > my misgivings. I have also seen boats like Allen Farrell's China Cloud, > > where the rig worked wonderfully (and it should be noted that he designed > > the hull and rig to work together, whereas Brent never intended his > > boats to > > be junk-rigged.). The fully battened aspect really tames the tendency of a > > sail to flog, and as long as there is not rigging to get it hooked up on > > you've also got an easy-reefing sail. Junk rig proponents point out that > > the aerodynamics of the junk are in a different realm than marconi, > > operating on different principals, and that vortex-induction may even > > play a > > role in generating lift on the junk sail. That said, it may be a > > mistake to > > attempt to make the junk try to act like an airplane wing, if it should be > > working with a different aerodynamic principal altogether. If that is the > > case, then I'd make sure my junk rig is not simply cobbled together > > without > > thought to the best way the technology should be used. > > > > If cost were not a factor, it would be amusing to rig the same hull with a > > proper junk rig, then try it again with marconi, and see which one a > > person > > prefers. But even if I had the extra money to expend on such a fancy, I > > think I'd rather throw it at my cruising fund and go sailing! > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > . > > > -- > Regards, > > Stephen Wandling > Project Manager > Swiftsure Consulting > > P: (604) 649-1418 > F: (604) 648-8945 > > "The failure to strive for completeness is probably > the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. > We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically > that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > |
2062|2062|2003-08-20 01:53:23|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Junk Rig hull types|There is a popular Yahoo group all about junk rig, for anyone wanting further information about it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig . Quite a few metal boatbuilders on that site, and it was started by an origami boatbuilder from my area. I think the type of hull may have quite a bit to do with the function of the rig. Allen Farrell's China Cloud was designed to "skim" across the water. He didn't mean that it could plane, of course, but he did keep the displacement light with a cedar hull of shallow draft. The three-masted China Cloud had ghosting abilities that baffled fellow boaters in expensive yachts, and Allen could handle his 42 footer solo, keeping his engineless vessel moving and in control in the tight quarters of a crowded anchorage. He was a master boatbuilder and experienced sailor who, by building a boat and rig to his own specifications, wedded his sailing skills to his craft perfectly. No wonder he could practically perform ballet in his boat. A buddy mentioned that the junk schooner I saw the other day was said to be very under-canvassed, which made me realize that there is more to a rig's performance than simply what type it is. Size does count, especially on a 44 foot steel boat! There is definitely something to learn from every type of rig, be it aft rig (Bolger has also done some exploration of that one), staysail schooner (interesting way of using two roller-furlers to create a rig that can be furled without going on deck), junk rig, gaff or marconi. It is sometimes very difficult to compare rigs based only on a few examples, and I'm afraid I have ventured into an arena of discussion with my example that has answers beyond my scope. I think every rig has examples that are highly successful, and examples that are not (such as the rig on my Pelican). Stephen made a good point about sticking to the Asian design of the junk rig. It makes sense to first start with the rig as it is meant to be then if we must, make our modifications from there. Again, the junkrig group has reams of postings that go over this, so well worth checking out what they have to say if you have further interest. Alex|
2063|2057|2003-08-20 07:06:32|sae140|Re: Junk Rig ?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Wandling wrote: > Since sailing well to windward was never a criteria for Blondie > it's no wonder. I don't understand this, as the race was across the North Atlantic, where windward sailing is common. To catch the more southerly trades would mean an extra 1000 miles. See: http://www.open50.com/background/bgRaceCourse.html BTW, for a really *ace* world-wide weather site, see: http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/sail.htm (you can check-out the Atlantic weather from sailing/ europe/ atlantic-route - it's a difficult site to navigate through at first) Gives: wave heights, satellite images, barometric pressure, forecasts etc. Best I've come across so far. C|
2064|2064|2003-08-20 07:41:37|Ronald|Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for designs|hiya our Mr Designer of origami boats wrote in his message "we raced aginst" Oh ...cruising is the word what I like to do if you like racing buy a French plastic bathtube like they have it for the Figaro race or the outher french monster races 80 h no sleep and with a medical guru on one boat deep sleep for 10 minutes all 4 hours the french way and that is racing !! in Practical Boatowner october 2000 I found an article " Rigged for safersailing" ok lot's of lines but no fancy winches no bayby stay 2nd genoa and furling system a lot of lines but only sails as masts. lines and offset of China Cloud a bit fancy are in "Sailig back in Time" amazon has it in stock seagoing classic Junk's like SAO MAI build 1996 in Vietnam all wood but dead traditional heavy displacement 17 meters and 30 tons (European) 2 masted had huge very heavy sails 450 Kg the mainsail and a huge diameter mast losely stayed aginst wipping a la colvin or as Colvin does it now Ok with modern canvas and aluminum hinged battens you gain a lot but acrylic canvas is cheap, easy to repair UV resistent, and glasfiber battens cheap. China cloud was a bilge keel design if you like to do a hull a bit like but origami building look at http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/aisha_large.gif she is an origami design and a two masted junk not so beautifull as China cloud not a modell for painting or even coins all that is out with China Cloud something other http://www.mandragore2.net/ a french page but no problem go on PLANS there you have lines, offset interior s ailplan etc they build it in wooud but looks much origami to me Farell gave his lines allways for free as time goes by ronald \\|// (o o) --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------------- "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity." - Charles Mingus -----------------------------------------------|
2065|2065|2003-08-20 08:58:39|russingram|patterns|Hi, Does anyone know of a source of paper patterns similar to the one in the "Files" that a newbie could experiment with? Thanks, Russ|
2066|2054|2003-08-20 12:00:26|info@easysoftwareinc.com|offshore rigs|First, let me put my preferences in perspective. The intended service for my boat is offshore cruising, with my wife and children. For this use I require a greater level of safety than I would for sailing single handed or with an all male crew. Perfection does not exist in human endeavors. Even the best rigging in the world will fail on occasion. Double spreader rigs provide a level of redundancy not found in single spreader rigs, in that double spreader rigs can survive a rigging failure that will typically bring down a single spreader rig. This is reflected in the boats seen offshore cruising, where double spreaders are common in sloops and single spreaders are common in ketches. The reason being that ketches can (hopefully) rely on the mizzen if the main fails, while sloops must take care to ensure the main never fails. From Euler we know that a column with a fixed end is twice as strong as a column with a pinned end. What does this tell us about deck stepped and keel stepped rigs? If you are going to deck step a mast, it must be twice as strong in section as a keel stepped mast. Usually it is cheaper to buy a longer mast than one that is twice as strong, which is the economic reason to keel step a mast. Also, a stronger mast is usually less efficient for sailing, which is the performance reason for a keel stepped mast. note: I have seen some builders place a pin in a keel stepped mast right at the deck level, to use the mast to support the deck. Do not do this as it can lead to stess cracks in the mast at the deck. Support the deck with a bulkhead or column. Euler also tells us that the strength of a mast varies inversely with the square of its unsupported length. How does this affect the choice of rigging? Consider a 36 foot boat. 10 ton displacement. 10 foot beat. 42 feet from deck to masthead. With a single spreader, the column length will be 42/2 = 21 feet. 21 squared = 441. With double spreaders, the column length will be 42/3 = 14 feet. 14 squared = 196 Thus, double spreaders will yield a column strength advantage of 441/196 = 2.25. With single spreaders, the mast will need to be 2.25 times stronger than it would need to be with double spreaders. Thus, a deck stepped single spreader rig will need to be 2.25 * 2 = 4.5 times stronger than if it was keel stepped, with double spreaders. note: The ratio of 2.25 for single spreader versus double spreaders is not specific to this example. It can be calculated using the inverse square as follows (1/2 * 1/2)/(1/3 * 1/3) = (1/4)/(1/9) = 9/4 = 2.25 However, we are not finished. The wires in a single spreader rig are at a steeper angle than the wires in a double spreader rig of the same beam. This means that more of the rigging force is applied downward as compression on the mast in a single spreader rig as compare to a double spreader rig. In our example, we will use 4 feet as the base of our rigging triangle. Consider that our worst case load is equal to the displacement of the boat. single spreader - force triangle = 21 x 4 x 21.38 = 10/21.38 * 21 = 9.8 tons compression double spreader - force triangle = 14 x 4 x 14.56 = 10/14.56 * 14 = 9.6 tons compression Thus, single spreaders, the mast will have to be 2.25 / 9.6 * 9.8 = 2.3 times stonger in section as compared to double spreaders, and 4.6 times stonger in section if deck stepped with single spreaders as compared to keel stepped to double spreaders. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2067|2064|2003-08-20 15:51:27|brentswain38|Re: Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for designs|I've sailed on China Cloud. It pointed very high in the calm waters of Nanaimo Harbour, but Allen Farrel , her designer , builder and skipper said in rough water she could barely sail better than 90 degrees to the wind. He once tried to get from Scotty Bay to Jedediah Island against a 15 knot southeaster for a picknic there, a distance of roughly ten miles. He beat for an entire day, then gave up at sundown. He tried all the next day and again gave up for good. He had nothing good to say about junk rigs at that time, sayng his previous , conventionally rigged boat would have made it in two easy tacks. Good semanship means giving seaworthiness priority over decorative priorities, altho the two can be compatible. You can buy a used sail in excellent condition for a fraction the price of acrylic material or most other materials for that matter, never mind the work of making a sail out of it. Excuse me, I meant" we cruised to windward against" The sails on a junk rig with all it's battens are extremely heavy, limiting the sail area you can carry. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald" wrote: > hiya > our Mr Designer of origami boats wrote > in his message > "we raced aginst" > Oh ...cruising is the word what I like to do > > if you like racing buy > a French plastic bathtube > like they have it for the Figaro race > or the outher french monster races > > 80 h no sleep and with a medical guru > on one boat deep sleep for 10 minutes all 4 hours > the french way and that is racing !! > > in Practical Boatowner october 2000 > I found an article " Rigged for safersailing" > ok lot's of lines but > no fancy winches > no bayby stay > 2nd genoa > and furling system > > a lot of lines > but only sails as masts. > > lines and offset of China Cloud a bit fancy > are in "Sailig back in Time" amazon has it in stock > > seagoing classic Junk's like SAO MAI > build 1996 in Vietnam all wood > but dead traditional > heavy displacement 17 meters and 30 tons (European) > 2 masted had huge very heavy sails 450 Kg the mainsail > and a huge diameter mast > losely stayed aginst wipping > a la colvin or as Colvin > does it now > > Ok with modern canvas and aluminum hinged battens > you gain a lot > > but acrylic canvas is cheap, easy to repair > UV resistent, and glasfiber battens cheap. > > China cloud was a bilge keel design > if you like to do a hull a bit like > but origami building > > look at > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/aisha_large.gif > she is an origami design > and a two masted junk > > not so beautifull as China cloud > not a modell for painting or even coins > all that is out with China Cloud > > something other > http://www.mandragore2.net/ > a french page but no problem > go on PLANS > there you have lines, > offset > interior s > ailplan etc > they build it in wooud > but looks much origami to me > > Farell gave his lines allways for free > as time goes by > > ronald > \\|// > (o o) > --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------------- > "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; > making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, > that's creativity." - Charles Mingus > ----------------------------------------------- |
2068|2057|2003-08-20 15:54:21|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rig ?|Go sailing on a junk rig amid other boats with marconi rigs and you'll understand well Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Wandling > wrote: > > > Since sailing well to windward was never a criteria for Blondie > > it's no wonder. > > I don't understand this, as the race was across the North Atlantic, > where windward sailing is common. To catch the more southerly trades > would mean an extra 1000 miles. > See: http://www.open50.com/background/bgRaceCourse.html > > BTW, for a really *ace* world-wide weather site, see: > http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/sail.htm > (you can check-out the Atlantic weather from sailing/ europe/ > atlantic-route - it's a difficult site to navigate through at first) > Gives: wave heights, satellite images, barometric pressure, forecasts > etc. Best I've come across so far. > > C |
2069|2057|2003-08-20 15:59:13|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rig ?|Bernard Moitessier once told me how , when he had his junk in Asia , he used to go to the market place after they had closed and pick up all the straw mats they used to put their wares on. They'd start sewing them together , and in a couple of days they would have a set of junk sails that would last several weeks. When they were trashed they would go back to the market place and begin the proccess all over again. Such was life back then. Brent swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > I've read this thread with great interest. I'll bet I know why the Junk rig > was developed in the first place. Sails have tremendous loads placed on > them by the wind. A Marconi rig has enormous loads at the corners. Imagine > what those loads did to the fabrics 2000 years ago, 200 years ago, 20 year > ago, and today. The junk rig provided more support for the fabric than any > other rig out there. If your sails rip and you don't have a motor, you > don't have much going for you. So you build a rig that breaks the sail up > in smaller panels, and take most of the loads on sturdy wooden battens. Then > if a panel blows out you have only a small reduction in your ability to > sail, and you may get a chance to relate how wonderful your new rig is. > > Aerodynamics is like any other area of physics. There is a lot we don't > know about in every area, but there aren't any BIG mysteries about how > things in the physical world work. The 'big breakthrough's are all > relatively small and incremental in every field of physics. That junk rigs > use some other basic theory of physics to explain how they work is just > wishful thinking. It's a lot like the truck drivers back in the seventies > during the first fuel crunch claiming that their rigs were 'designed' and > 'geared' for 70 mph, and running at 55 was actually using more fuel. Guess > what, trucks have the equivalent of 'hull speed' aerodynamically. Above a > certain speed the drag goes WAY up and the fuel economy goes way down. > > Anybody want to buy a car that runs on water? > > Gary H. Lucas > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen Wandling" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 4:48 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Junk Rig ? > > > > Alex, > > > > Thanks for the great story. You should be able to use your great writing > > skills to keep your cruising fund topped up! > > > > Two things: > > > > Because of your mention of the bulge at the mast when on the tack to the > > West, I imagine the battens are too "soft" in the effort to create the > > type of aerodynamics that western minds insist on imposing on this 2000 > > year old design. > > > > Secondly, Blondie Hasler has done more to make the junk rig currently > > popular than probably any other person around. He has also done his > > share in giving it a bad name. He wanted a rig for the Atlantic > > Singlehanded race that he could run from inside Jester and he succeeded > > at that task with his version of the junk rig. Others have built to his > > specs and then complained that it doesn't sail to windward. Since > > sailing well to windward was never a criteria for Blondie it's no wonder. > > > > My point: Stick to the classic asian design, paying attention to all of > > the details. You may well end up with a rig that holds it's own with > > western rigs. They are out there. Maybe it won't point quite as high, > > but it may well get to the finish line at the same time! > > > > I will junk rig my engineless steel boat. I'll give you a shout before I > > come through Baynes Sound. > > > > Stephen > > > > Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > > > > > The junk rig has been getting a lot of press lately, and I think has > > > always > > > found favour with people working to a budget, and people looking for an > > > easy-to-handle rig. Brent's rig as designed for his boats is pretty > > > simple, > > > though. > > > > > > There are so many variations on the junk rig (for instance, the > difference > > > between Vietnamese, Chinese, Riverine, Coastal and Ocean-going rigs and > so > > > on) that I would hesitate to make a general statement about it, but I do > > > have some first hand experience and observations to put in the stew pot > > > here. > > > > > > The performance of any rig should be looked at subjectively, and in > > > context > > > of the hull it is attempting to drive, plus the person handling it. Phil > > > Bolger, has explored more different rigs than anyone, and still can't > find > > > himself wholly liking the junk, despite repeated pleas to him to > > > design for > > > it. Instead, his instincts and experience have led him to a type of > > > hybrid, > > > the "Chinese Gaff" rig, which is basically a very heavily battened > > > gaff rig. > > > It has the advantage of still breaking the pressures on a sail up into > > > smaller pieces, and has the same aerodynamics on either tack. It is a > > > quiet > > > rig, and reputedly easy to handle. With all of it's sail area aft of the > > > mast, however, it doesn't have the junk's balanced wing, nor can it be > > > moved > > > fore and aft like a junk (though how often people adjust a junk in this > > > fashion once they have it tweaked to their liking is open to > conjecture). > > > > > > It may or may not be a reflection on the rig as a whole, but I do have > > > some > > > recent direct > > > observations of a local 44 foot junk schooner 's performance to windward > > > which > > > gave me pause for thought. I hope my critique of her performance doesn't > > > ruffle the feathers of any members of the group who favour junk rig, but > > > these are simply my subjective observations. She was tacking south down > > > Baynes Sound a > > > few days ago, and I had the opportunity to see right off my bedroom > > > balcony > > > how she worked on one tack vs the other. The wind was out against them, > > > coming out of the south at about > > > 10-14 knots. Here is what I saw: on her eastward tack, coming towards > me, > > > with the battens on the leeward side of the mast and held away by the > wind > > > pressure, she charged along quite smartly, making the 2.5 kilometre > > > crossing > > > from one side of the > > > sound to the other in good time. The sails had a distinctly air- foiled > > > shape > > > as they bulged out away from the mast. Just below my house she came > about > > > in the > > > relaxed manner that junks are known for. But once pointed on her new > tack, > > > she just stalled > > > out, not making any headway, with even a little drift downwind. Now the > > > battens were pressed heavily against the mast (both fore and aft sails > > > were > > > on the same side, by the way), such that there was a distinct "bump" > where > > > the sail material contacted the mast, and if there were a smoke stream > > > going > > > over the sail I'm sure I would have seen the confused vortexes of wind > > > generated by the "log" in the way of the airflow on the windward side > > > of the > > > sails -- no doubt robbing a lot of the thrust one would need to get the > > > boat moving. The > > > skipper bore away from the wind to try a broad reach and she still > > > didn't appear to move much, even starting to crab sideways downwind. > > > If she > > > had been on a lee shore that would have been the end of her, is all I > > > could > > > think. Eventually she began to get a little way on, but very reluctantly > > > so, > > > and not nearly as close to the wind as her previous tack. She seemed to > > > struggle her way across the sound very reluctantly on a broad reach. Any > > > more, and he'd have been sailing downwind. The boat made it's way in > this > > > ponderous way across the sound to the other side where it could > > > finally turn > > > around and make a more successful run. > > > > > > What happened? A friend said that the function of the junk rig, like any > > > rig, is also a function of the person handling that rig but I know the > > > owner > > > of this boat > > > is a seasoned sailor. Tom Colvin told him that non-asians never seem to > > > sail them right (excluding himself, of course!), but I don't know how > much > > > to make of that. > > > > > > What I saw happening is unfortunately the same thing that used to > > > happen to > > > me in my junk-rigged Grand Pelican (18 footer): When on the tack which > > > favoured the fullest shape of sail (battens held away from the mast) > > > without > > > the vortice-inducing bump caused by the mast pressing against the > > > cloth, the > > > boat would move along happily. Then, on the opposite tack, the boat > would > > > not make to windward, meaning that one tack would be wasted on a broad > > > reach > > > until the opposite tack could be taken and the rig allowed to work on > the > > > favourable side of the mast. I found this quite irritating, and it more > > > often than not > > > resulted in me firing up the outboard to get to windward. If I had > removed > > > all the battens and used the rig as a dipping lug-sail, I could have > > > dipped > > > the yard and put it on the other side to get some nice sail shape > > > happening, > > > but this obviates the intention of the junk rig to be easy and relaxing > to > > > use. > > > > > > Some junk schooners hang the fore sail on one side of the mast, and the > > > aft sail on the other (see the cover of Annie Hill's book) thereby > > > having at > > > least one sail on the good side on any given tack, but the other day the > > > observed 44 foot junk had both sails on the same side. > > > > > > On the surface, the junk seems like a "people's rig", and they are > > > beautiful > > > to watch (though beauty is not very relevant when you are trying to > > > claw off > > > a lee shore and save your boat and the life of your crew). I like how > > > quiet > > > they are, and how sedately they come about without undue anxiety, > > > though it > > > disturbed me to watch that junk the other day just sit there after > coming > > > about. Some rigs on some peoples' boats have worked great, while other > > > rigs > > > spend a lot of time wrapped up while the boat motors everywhere even > > > though > > > the wind is up. Obviously there is something worth exploring there, and > I > > > continue to watch with interest the ongoing research into the rig, > despite > > > my misgivings. I have also seen boats like Allen Farrell's China Cloud, > > > where the rig worked wonderfully (and it should be noted that he > designed > > > the hull and rig to work together, whereas Brent never intended his > > > boats to > > > be junk-rigged.). The fully battened aspect really tames the tendency of > a > > > sail to flog, and as long as there is not rigging to get it hooked up on > > > you've also got an easy-reefing sail. Junk rig proponents point out that > > > the aerodynamics of the junk are in a different realm than marconi, > > > operating on different principals, and that vortex-induction may even > > > play a > > > role in generating lift on the junk sail. That said, it may be a > > > mistake to > > > attempt to make the junk try to act like an airplane wing, if it should > be > > > working with a different aerodynamic principal altogether. If that is > the > > > case, then I'd make sure my junk rig is not simply cobbled together > > > without > > > thought to the best way the technology should be used. > > > > > > If cost were not a factor, it would be amusing to rig the same hull with > a > > > proper junk rig, then try it again with marconi, and see which one a > > > person > > > prefers. But even if I had the extra money to expend on such a fancy, I > > > think I'd rather throw it at my cruising fund and go sailing! > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > 72:HM/A=1595054/R=0/SIG=124ukap9t/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryutaitaken attogy > o?YH=3707890&yhad=1595054> > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > > > . > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Stephen Wandling > > Project Manager > > Swiftsure Consulting > > > > P: (604) 649-1418 > > F: (604) 648-8945 > > > > "The failure to strive for completeness is probably > > the most common failing in the thinking of all individuals. > > We focus our eyes on one small truth so hypnotically > > that we neglect all other truths." –Sam Keen > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > |
2070|2064|2003-08-20 16:10:51|Michael Casling|Re: Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for designs|Brent, we may be on different sides of the fence about hull materials but I am with you on the sails and rig. The system that has been developed with a single mast, wyre and spreaders to hold it up works well, is dependable and allows the boat to sail in all directions except straight upwind. As with diesel engines it is an area that I would not try and reinvent as it all works so well. If the rig on your boat happens to match that of another popular boat then used sails become available. I got our main new and cheap as the Bayfield 29 owner changed his mind. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for designs I've sailed on China Cloud. It pointed very high in the calm waters of Nanaimo Harbour, but Allen Farrel , her designer , builder and skipper said in rough water she could barely sail better than 90 degrees to the wind. He once tried to get from Scotty Bay to Jedediah Island against a 15 knot southeaster for a picknic there, a distance of roughly ten miles. He beat for an entire day, then gave up at sundown. He tried all the next day and again gave up for good. He had nothing good to say about junk rigs at that time, sayng his previous , conventionally rigged boat would have made it in two easy tacks. Good semanship means giving seaworthiness priority over decorative priorities, altho the two can be compatible. You can buy a used sail in excellent condition for a fraction the price of acrylic material or most other materials for that matter, never mind the work of making a sail out of it. Excuse me, I meant" we cruised to windward against" The sails on a junk rig with all it's battens are extremely heavy, limiting the sail area you can carry. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ronald" wrote: > hiya > our Mr Designer of origami boats wrote > in his message > "we raced aginst" > Oh ...cruising is the word what I like to do > > if you like racing buy > a French plastic bathtube > like they have it for the Figaro race > or the outher french monster races > > 80 h no sleep and with a medical guru > on one boat deep sleep for 10 minutes all 4 hours > the french way and that is racing !! > > in Practical Boatowner october 2000 > I found an article " Rigged for safersailing" > ok lot's of lines but > no fancy winches > no bayby stay > 2nd genoa > and furling system > > a lot of lines > but only sails as masts. > > lines and offset of China Cloud a bit fancy > are in "Sailig back in Time" amazon has it in stock > > seagoing classic Junk's like SAO MAI > build 1996 in Vietnam all wood > but dead traditional > heavy displacement 17 meters and 30 tons (European) > 2 masted had huge very heavy sails 450 Kg the mainsail > and a huge diameter mast > losely stayed aginst wipping > a la colvin or as Colvin > does it now > > Ok with modern canvas and aluminum hinged battens > you gain a lot > > but acrylic canvas is cheap, easy to repair > UV resistent, and glasfiber battens cheap. > > China cloud was a bilge keel design > if you like to do a hull a bit like > but origami building > > look at > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/ > http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/aisha_large.gif > she is an origami design > and a two masted junk > > not so beautifull as China cloud > not a modell for painting or even coins > all that is out with China Cloud > > something other > http://www.mandragore2.net/ > a french page but no problem > go on PLANS > there you have lines, > offset > interior s > ailplan etc > they build it in wooud > but looks much origami to me > > Farell gave his lines allways for free > as time goes by > > ronald > \\|// > (o o) > --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------------- > "Making the simple complicated is commonplace; > making the complicated simple, awesomely simple, > that's creativity." - Charles Mingus > ----------------------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2071|2057|2003-08-20 17:37:57|edward_stoneuk|Re: Junk Rig ?|Although my wife and I haven't been sailing long we have sailed on about 10 different junk rigged boats, 6 different Marconi or Bermudan rigs and too many motorboats to mention. The best to windward were definitely the motor rigs although the ride can get very bumpy. My understanding is that for the best windward performance in a sailing boat then a sail with a long luff is best, which is what you get with a high aspect Bermudan (Marconi) rig. Off the wind then a quadrilateral or polygonal sail such as a gaff rig, square rigger, or junk performs best, which is what Brent says. Junk rigs I have seen in photos, drawings and in real life vary widely especially the Asian ones with the sail battens varying from almost horizontal to sails with the lower battens almost horizontal but progressively cocking up until the top batten or yard is at about 70°. The latter sail has better windward performance as the upper panels, having a batten at their luff much like a gunter rig form a better aerofoil shape. The junk rigs with horizontal battens, would, I should think, have been used where the prevailing wind was always on the beam, much the same as with a commercial western schooner, which are best on a beam reach, would have been used. Blondie Hasler's Jester, which as I understand was not noted for its windward ability but has crossed the Atlantic thirteen times, had battens that were more horizontal than many would use today on a Western junk rig. Thoughts vary in the junk world as to how to improve windward performance. These range from switching on the iron topsail, to hinged battens, to cutting the sail to give each panel an aerofoil section much like stunt parachutes, to different batten angles. When ailing to windward in light winds with a Bermudan rig the sheets are slackened to let the sails make an aerofoil shape. As the wind increases the sheets are tightened to make the sail flatter. Junk rigged boats with flat sails are at a big disadvantage in light winds sailing to windward compared to a Bermudan rig, however as the wind freshens the disadvantage lessens especially if the Bermudan rig has a furling fore sail where the roll of sail upsets the airflow. I have been in a junk rig sailing to windward that has overtaken a Bermudan rig and I have been in a junk rig that has been left standing by a Bermudan rig sailing to windward. People race boats of the same design. They don't all win. To me the windward performance of the junk rig is OK but it is not the main issue. I like the fact that the junk sail is quiet, the sheets can be let go to slow the vessel without the sails flogging, it gybes without the boom trying to kill a crew member, it can be reefed so easily without me, who is not getting any younger having the distress of watching my wife struggling to tie up a flogging sail while the boom tries to throw her off the cabin roof. Off the wind it is easier than a Bermudan rig. My wife prefers a junk rig for our boat. Regards, Ted|
2072|2057|2003-08-20 19:44:24|Ted Stone|Re: Junk Rig ?|Regarding trying a boat with a marconi rig and a junk rig: A month ago we sailed on a junk rigged Etap 26. When the owner took early retirement some 20 years ago he had bought the unsinkable boat with a marconi (Bermudan) rig and sailed away in it every summer. After several years one of the chain plates pulled out. Etap boats are twin skinned with foam between to give them their unsinkability so the repair would have been difficult. So he did away with standing rigging and fitted a junk sail with an unstayed mast which he has sailed every summer since, travelling from France to the UK, Holland, Germany and the Baltic. I did not ask if he preferred the junk to the Bermudan rig. He seemed happy with it. He was one of the most skilled yachtsman I have sailed with. Before retiring he had been master of a cross channel car ferry. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2073|2057|2003-08-21 10:37:52|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Junk Rig ?|I have seen few junk rigged crusing boats offshore. Over the years maybe 5 come to mind. I suspect that they would be more common if they were a good, cost effective cruising solution. One problem common to unstayed rigs is that they often need to have a mast relatively far forward to balance the boat. One junk rigged boat we cruised with had a mast leaning forward over the bow to balance the boat. Having a mast near the bow can result in the need for bluff bows to support the weight and loads of the mast, which can make the boat harder to drive to windward in a seaway. This as much as the sail plan might be behind some of the performance questions concerning junk rigs to windward. Ron tells me the Lazy Bones was inspired by a junk rig. He had built a bluff, junk rigged design by a well known designer and it was his frustration trying to sail that boat to windward that inspired him to design and build the Lazy Bones. Greg Elliott Yacht lazy Bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2074|2057|2003-08-21 13:43:13|brentswain38|Re: Junk Rig ?|Don't underestimate the loads an unstayed mast puts on the deck in a rough sea. A friend had his deckplate buckling in his junk while motoring into a rough headsea. A 1/4 inch doubler for about two feet from the mast around the mast pipe is a good idea. Again, having a log tied to one side of an airfoil seems to reduce the efficiency upwind in a junk and I don't see any simple way around that.Strong winds in smooth water would no doubt help a junk to windward, but a rough sea tends to stop them. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I have seen few junk rigged crusing boats offshore. Over the years maybe 5 come to mind. I suspect that they would be more common if they were a good, cost effective cruising solution. > > One problem common to unstayed rigs is that they often need to have a mast relatively far forward to balance the boat. One junk rigged boat we cruised with had a mast leaning forward over the bow to balance the boat. Having a mast near the bow can result in the need for bluff bows to support the weight and loads of the mast, which can make the boat harder to drive to windward in a seaway. This as much as the sail plan might be behind some of the performance questions concerning junk rigs to windward. > > Ron tells me the Lazy Bones was inspired by a junk rig. He had built a bluff, junk rigged design by a well known designer and it was his frustration trying to sail that boat to windward that inspired him to design and build the Lazy Bones. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht lazy Bones > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2075|2057|2003-08-21 14:02:39|fmichael graham|Re: Junk Rig ?|I guess I may as well throw in my "two bits" worth. I had the great fortune to observe, close-hand, one of the junk-rigged sailboats that were built and sailed by Allen Farrell, on the B.C. coast. While I could appreciate the simplicity of the rig (say goodbye to most of the rigging), and it is a very sweet looking design when seen against the horizon, I think it would be a mistake to substitute such a rig for the Marconi -Bermudian rig if one wished to sail about the planet. I understand that Allen Farrell chose the junk rig so as not to have to spend money - which he did not have in abundance - on wire & metal. What first attracted me to Brent's method of boat building was that, in the spirit of people like the Farrells, He designs & builds a boat that is simple, inexpensive and pleasing to the eye. A junk rig would, in fact, be more expensive to build and maintain - I understand that there is major sail chafe when the sail is backing to the mast - and would detract from the performance of the boat. I have noticed that many of the postings submitted in the past six months have been on issues which complicate the building of a sailboat and, while its nice to philosophise about alternatives, I think that the purity of what Brent, with Alex's assistance, has offered us is best appreciated when following the credo of "KISS" (keep it simple stupid). I hope I haven't stepped on any toes, that is not my intention. So, when is Brent going to schedule a workshop? Brent?? Mike info@... wrote: I have seen few junk rigged crusing boats offshore. Over the years maybe 5 come to mind. I suspect that they would be more common if they were a good, cost effective cruising solution. One problem common to unstayed rigs is that they often need to have a mast relatively far forward to balance the boat. One junk rigged boat we cruised with had a mast leaning forward over the bow to balance the boat. Having a mast near the bow can result in the need for bluff bows to support the weight and loads of the mast, which can make the boat harder to drive to windward in a seaway. This as much as the sail plan might be behind some of the performance questions concerning junk rigs to windward. Ron tells me the Lazy Bones was inspired by a junk rig. He had built a bluff, junk rigged design by a well known designer and it was his frustration trying to sail that boat to windward that inspired him to design and build the Lazy Bones. Greg Elliott Yacht lazy Bones [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2076|2057|2003-08-21 15:07:45|Ted Stone|Re: Junk Rig ?|Junk rigs with most of their sail area behind the mast do mean that the mast has to be further forward to balance the centre of effort and resistance than on a rig with a jib. This is a concern and is no doubt why that some have asked if a certain hull is suitable for a junk rig. There are those in the UK, with considerable experience in designing and building junk rigs for production boats, who say that it has not been a problem provided it is designed properly. I have sailed junk rigs on a wide variety of production boats such as a Freedom 36, a Macgregor 26 an Etap and a Newbridge Navigator and their owners seemed happy enough. On many traditional western boats bowsprits were/are used to balance their low aspect rigs. A bowsprit could be thought of as a mast leaning so far forward that it is horizontal. Tom Colvin had a bowsprit and jib on his otherwise junk rigged "Gazelle" although in later junk designs he did not use one. He used standing rigging on "Gazelle" although the Bisquine, the traditional sailing fishing boat of the Mont-Saint-Michel area of France, which is a two or three masted lugger had a bowsprit with mostly unstayed masts, which seems brave. Their masts lean all over the place. They have a deep forefoot. Google bisquine to see some photos of these spectacular looking boats. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2077|2057|2003-08-21 17:10:49|vinnie_barberino2000|Re: Junk Rig ?|I have no advice to offer on junk rigs just an observation from a Kiwi who has never seen a junk rigged yacht down here.They are not very popular on our waters , I dont know if it has to do with our racing backgrounds or our need for a rig that has good allround ability,especially when trying to scratch yourself off our islands in the gulf or to avoid others.I hav'nt thought too much about them but alternative rigs are not that popular ,in saying that I dont know why. Maybe the need to sail well on all points of wind is more important than the romantic aspect of alternative rigs. Regards Steve --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Stone" wrote: > Junk rigs with most of their sail area behind the mast do mean that the mast has to be further forward to balance the centre of effort and resistance than on a rig with a jib. This is a concern and is no doubt why that some have asked if a certain hull is suitable for a junk rig. > > > > There are those in the UK, with considerable experience in designing and building junk rigs for production boats, who say that it has not been a problem provided it is designed properly. I have sailed junk rigs on a wide variety of production boats such as a Freedom 36, a Macgregor 26 an Etap and a Newbridge Navigator and their owners seemed happy enough. > > > > On many traditional western boats bowsprits were/are used to balance their low aspect rigs. A bowsprit could be thought of as a mast leaning so far forward that it is horizontal. Tom Colvin had a bowsprit and jib on his otherwise junk rigged "Gazelle" although in later junk designs he did not use one. He used standing rigging on "Gazelle" although the Bisquine, the traditional sailing fishing boat of the Mont-Saint-Michel area of France, which is a two or three masted lugger had a bowsprit with mostly unstayed masts, which seems brave. Their masts lean all over the place. They have a deep forefoot. Google bisquine to see some photos of these spectacular looking boats. > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2078|2057|2003-08-21 18:53:55|Alex Christie|Re: Junk Rig|The exploration of the junk rig issue here is really interesting, in that the original reason many are attracted to it is for reasons of simplicity and safety. So, in many ways, their quest is aligned with much of the philosophy of Brent's approach (the do-it-yourself attitude). It is just a different approach, and many who take it are well aware of the pros and cons. It may be interesting to note that Allen Farrell made it clear to would-be China Cloud builders that his junk was designed for coastal work, and never for offshore use. Farrell was quite a sane sailor, and over his long boatbuilding career he designed/built each boat to perform in the environment in which he intended to venture. His words were worth heeding, and Brent's recollection of Farrell's comments about China Cloud's performance stand out strongly in my mind. Even though I'll likely rig my future boat as a marconi, I am attracted to the spirit of the junk rig people; They are seeking the same kind of simplicity that Brent's boatbuilding philosophy promotes, just in a different way. The evolution of the offshore sailing rig is ongoing, and it is fascinating to contemplate the possibilities, if not tempting to experiment myself. I must admit that I have been following with interest Phil Bolger's "Chinese Gaff" rig as a possible meeting ground between the extremes, though the chafe of the batten pockets against the shrouds remains a stumbling block. Brent's comments about the problems of chafe in fully battened marconi mainsails are a case in point. Alex|
2079|2057|2003-08-22 02:35:54|sae140|Re: Junk Rig ?|> > > Since sailing well to windward was never a criteria for Blondie > > > it's no wonder. > > I don't understand this, as the race was across the North > > Atlantic, where windward sailing is common. > Go sailing on a junk rig amid other boats with marconi rigs and > you'll understand well Brent Swain You misunderstand me. What I don't understand is why someone with Halser's lifetime of experience would take a rig supposedly incapable of any windward performance whatsoever (which is what many would have us believe about Jester's rig) onto the more northerly route of the North Atlantic crossing - on a race - where some windward work might reasonably be expected. To be sure, he was no mug, and tried to predict favourable easterlies for his crossing - but this was at a time long before the computerised weather prediction systems we have today were developed. Guys in those days (and still !) had to contend with whatever weather was dealt them - and that would almost certainly have included a dose of adverse winds. The racer simply doesn't have the cruiser's luxury of waiting around patiently for favourable winds to materialise. The original Jester crossed the Atlantic over a dozen times plus countless shorter passages during it's 27 year life, before being sunk during a botched rescue - racing for much of this time. Are we really to believe that this boat never encountered nor successfully contended with adverse winds during this period ? Personally, I have found junk rig to be a most willing performer around these coasts, in anything but the lightest winds. The rigs sailed were classic flat-cut Halser-McLeod, although later designs are reported to be even better. The rig seemingly *wants* to drive - indeed, hoving-to isn't at all easy with this rig - a slow drift is the best I've ever achieved. However, I *do* have misgivings about it's offshore suitability, and hence my initial enquiry. I'm not sure why China Cloud is being commented on in terms of offshore sailing, as it was never built for this purpose. It's amazing light wind capability probably has as much to do with it's underwater profile as it's rig, and having so little hull in the water would probably make it a very dangerous (or at least uncomfortable) boat in high seas. But - what really motivated my initial enquiry was an awareness that *everything* (discounting gps & charts etc) on a Swain-designed boat can be built or obtained from non-marine sources (even the engine, g/box and prop if you're a DIY fanatic) - everything - except for sails, mast ... and sacrificial zincs. If just seems one helluva pity that the design can't be made from 100% non-marine sources, that's all - on a point of principle - call it a kind of 'design objective' if you like - and I was kinda hoping that junk rig might have found a warmer reception. It would also be useful to know whether there is any way around the zinc issue (without starting a flame war) for similar reasons. I find it interesting to compare the Wylo II with the Swain 31 and 36. Almost identical hullforms (as far as I can tell from modelling the multi-chine Wylo into Origami) and based on a broadly similar 'DIY, Low-Cost philosophy', but whereas the Wylo comes with a choice of many rigs, the keel choice is rather limited - whereas with the Swain design, the reverse is true. No complaint - no big political point scoring - just an observation. I'd like to think that these two designs are sufficiently similar that some mix-and-match of rigs and keels between them might be possible ? With due caution of course. Colin|
2080|2080|2003-08-22 02:38:54|sae140|The case for DIY ?|One reason to build your own gear is that manufacturers of yacht fittings appear to be more concerned with issues of appearance and fashion, and simply do not build their products strongly enough to take the hardships of a marine environment. Another reason to build your own gear is that although some items of second-hand equipment (such as masts and sails) would be more cost- effective to buy rather than make yourself, these items are simply not readily available. Although I live near the coast, this sea-area of England is a commercial crab and shell-fishing region, and leisure sailing is an almost non-existent minority activity. Ergo - there are virtually zero supplies of yachting equipment to be had, either new or second- hand. Visiting a yachting area in the search for s/h sails or propellors or w.h.y involves a full day's driving - and then without any guarantee of success. There'll undoubtedly be folk building boats well inland, in the outback or in desert areas perhaps, in a much worse situation than myself. So - before anyone writes saying that a second-hand sail/ mast/ engine/ prop etc is the simplest and the most straightforward and cost-effective solution to a problem .. please bear in mind that not all of us have equal access to such resources. Colin|
2081|2057|2003-08-22 04:50:41|Stephen Wandling|Re: Junk Rig ?|I suspect that most modern cruisers sail with what comes on their production boat. Modern cruisers look at me with glazed over eyes when I explain the boat I am building and then they change the subject. I get a similar reaction when I suggest to them that they could make their own self furling gear or anchor or anchor winch. Only a small portion of the population are innovators. (BTW, I love the cutter rig and would have that if I weren't so keen on trying the junk rig.) Junk rigs don't NEED their mast forward or leaning forward, it's that they CAN do so. It spreads the rig. info@... wrote: > I have seen few junk rigged crusing boats offshore. Over the years > maybe 5 come to mind. I suspect that they would be more common if > they were a good, cost effective cruising solution. > > One problem common to unstayed rigs is that they often need to have a > mast relatively far forward to balance the boat. One junk rigged boat > we cruised with had a mast leaning forward over the bow to balance the > boat. |
2082|2080|2003-08-22 05:17:02|Phillip Allen|Re: The case for DIY ?|The build it yourself person (imo) represents a "mind set", that is, one automaticly thinks "I wonder if I could build that?" As a twelve year old, I became very interested in firearms...guess what, Mom says I can't buy one--even if I somehow got the money myself. So...I built one myself...then another...and so on. No gun powder?...I made it myself. As an aside...I think now that one dosen't just grow-up and leave his childhood, he "survives" his childhood...maybe. :) The point is that I agree with the DYI attitude and learned very early that even if others seek to limit me (Mom in the above example), not to limit myself. Phillip Allen (Arkansas) sae140 wrote: One reason to build your own gear is that manufacturers of yacht fittings appear to be more concerned with issues of appearance and fashion, and simply do not build their products strongly enough to take the hardships of a marine environment. Another reason to build your own gear is that although some items of second-hand equipment (such as masts and sails) would be more cost- effective to buy rather than make yourself, these items are simply not readily available. Although I live near the coast, this sea-area of England is a commercial crab and shell-fishing region, and leisure sailing is an almost non-existent minority activity. Ergo - there are virtually zero supplies of yachting equipment to be had, either new or second- hand. Visiting a yachting area in the search for s/h sails or propellors or w.h.y involves a full day's driving - and then without any guarantee of success. There'll undoubtedly be folk building boats well inland, in the outback or in desert areas perhaps, in a much worse situation than myself. So - before anyone writes saying that a second-hand sail/ mast/ engine/ prop etc is the simplest and the most straightforward and cost-effective solution to a problem .. please bear in mind that not all of us have equal access to such resources. Colin Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2083|2064|2003-08-22 08:31:35|Don Taylor|Re: Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for designs|My own experiences of sailing our junk-rigged Colvin Gazelle are the opposite to what Brent describes for Allen Farrel and China Cloud. Once the wind pipes up then a Gazelle will sail very well to windward as long as you keep up lots of sail area - which is not intimidating to do because she is easy to reef. On the other hand, light air performance to windward is poor. In one instance, we short-tacked for about 10 miles against F5-6 winds and the flood tide up the St. Johns river to Jacksonville, Florida. Our engine had died so I was forced to sail when I would normally have turned on the iron topsail. I was amazed at how well Pilger made progress. It was a bit of an "aha" experience for me. Another data point, FWIW, is that our jib (Gazelles are junk schooners with a western jib) will start luffing when going to windward before the foresail stops drawing. I usually have to fall off because the only western sail on our Gazelle objects, not because the junk sails stop drawing. From photographs that I have seen, China Cloud looks quite light and I suspect that she has little, if any, lateral plane. If so, then this would explain both her light and heavy air performance. I think that both the rig and the hull have to be considered when discussing performance characteristics. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I've sailed on China Cloud. It pointed very high in the calm waters > of Nanaimo Harbour, but Allen Farrel , her designer , builder and > skipper said in rough water she could barely sail better than 90 > degrees to the wind. He once tried to get from Scotty Bay to Jedediah > Island against a 15 knot southeaster for a picknic there, a distance > of roughly ten miles. He beat for an entire day, then gave up at > sundown. He tried all the next day and again gave up for good. He had > nothing good to say about junk rigs at that time, sayng his > previous , conventionally rigged boat would have made it in two easy > tacks. |
2084|2084|2003-08-22 12:18:22|robertgm36|36 Twin Keel For Sale|There is a photo album plus a file for this boat. Robert|
2085|2085|2003-08-22 12:25:14|Alex and Kim Christie|China Cloud - a unique case, and other considerations |Don Taylor is completely right about China Cloud: she has minimal lateral plane generated by the shallow keel and very small bilge keels -- not giving much "bite" on the water for windward work. It was a compromise that Allen knowingly made in order to enjoy thin-water, the peace of tranquil coves normally unexplored by boats of that size. And, as I mentioned before, China Cloud was never intended for offshore work. That said, while the boat is an interesting study in the use of junk rig, her peformance characteristics cannot be compared to an offshore boat with the same junk rig but more lateral plane. The steel junk schooner I saw was working in quite light air, I realize, and a more in-depth analysis of her performance should be undertaken in a variety of conditions. I imagine there'd be quite a difference in stronger wind, and the junk rig may really come into its own on long offshore passages. Here's an interesting opportunity: I am actually going to have a friend's unfinished 36 foot Swain moved to and completed on my property over the next year, and it will be rigged as a junk. When this craft is launched, it is going to provide an excellent opportunity to see how the rig works on a 36. I haven't sailed on a junk rig of that size, so I am definitely looking forward to it. There'll be a full account of my experiences on this site, no doubt, and maybe we can get some real performance data that we can work with. Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Taylor To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:30 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for designs > My own experiences of sailing our junk-rigged Colvin Gazelle are > the opposite to what Brent describes for Allen Farrel and China > Cloud. > > Once the wind pipes up then a Gazelle will sail very well to windward > as long as you keep up lots of sail area - which is not intimidating > to do because she is easy to reef. On the other hand, light air > performance to windward is poor. > > In one instance, we short-tacked for about 10 miles against F5-6 > winds and the flood tide up the St. Johns river to Jacksonville, > Florida. Our engine had died so I was forced to sail when I would > normally have turned on the iron topsail. I was amazed at how well > Pilger made progress. It was a bit of an "aha" experience for me. > > Another data point, FWIW, is that our jib (Gazelles are junk > schooners with a western jib) will start luffing when going to > windward before the foresail stops drawing. I usually have to fall > off because the only western sail on our Gazelle objects, not because > the junk sails stop drawing. > > From photographs that I have seen, China Cloud looks quite light and > I suspect that she has little, if any, lateral plane. If so, then > this would explain both her light and heavy air performance. > > I think that both the rig and the hull have to be considered when > discussing performance characteristics. > > Don. |
2086|2086|2003-08-22 14:11:19|edward_stoneuk|Waterline|What is the best way to mark off the waterline on a 36' of Brent's design? Regards, Ted|
2087|2085|2003-08-22 14:38:18|Don Taylor|Re: China Cloud - a unique case, and other considerations|I don't want to turn this into a discussion on junk rig performance, I moderate the junk rig egroup and I would rather folks joined my group for that discussion. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/ However, I will say that light air performance is a constant source of discussion and experimentation. The notion is that in light airs you need some camber in the sail, but not in heavy airs. The techniques being tested include flexible battens, battens with knuckles, sewing rounds into the sail panels (baggy panels), and "Gurney" flaps on the leech. Finally, it has been suggested that we Westerners did not copy the Chinese design very faithfully and that we should re-examine how they did things. Regards, Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > The steel junk schooner I saw was working in quite light air, I realize,|
2088|2086|2003-08-22 14:39:11|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Waterline|I don't know of a specific technique for Brent's boats, but I just read about a relatively cheap method on the Bolger Chebacco website (www.chebacco.com), where you use a cheap laser level mounted on a tripod, and simply shoot the hull. If your boat is level, you swing the laser (making sure the laser itself is level in all directions) in an arc, making marks on the boat at regular intervals. The rest is a matter of taping off and painting your waterline. Hopefully it is as simple as it sounds! (And when is that ever the case :-) Some lasers are gimballed to allow self-levelling (maybe rent this type?). As long as your boat is level, this would make marking off the waterline a cinch. I have a listing for a laser level in our local building supply catalogue at a cost of $49.99 Canadian. Looks just like a house builders' level, but has batteries and shoots laser light out one end. It has a convenient hole in the centre for attaching to a tripod, and you'd use the bubble vial on the level itself set the equipment level in all directions. A self-levelling laser can be had for around $100 and up. The same catalogue features a kit which includes level, goggles, batteries, tripod with 3 leveling wheels, carrying case and two lenses for $89.99. Since you'd be walking back and forth sometimes right through the laser beam, make sure you wear eye protection to avoid zapping your eyes. Some lasers come with the glasses, some don't. Alex > What is the best way to mark off the waterline on a 36' of Brent's > design? > > Regards, > Ted > > |
2089|2085|2003-08-22 14:40:04|Leif Thomsen|Re: China Cloud - a unique case, and other considerations|Alex, Very interesting about the junk rigged 36. One or two masts? Sailarea? Type of junk sails? /Leif T ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex and Kim Christie" To: Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 6:26 PM Subject: [origamiboats] China Cloud - a unique case, and other considerations > Don Taylor is completely right about China Cloud: she has minimal lateral > plane generated by the shallow keel and very small bilge keels -- not > giving much "bite" on the water for windward work. It was a compromise that > Allen knowingly made in order to enjoy thin-water, the peace of tranquil > coves normally unexplored by boats of that size. And, as I mentioned > before, China Cloud was never intended for offshore work. That said, while > the boat is an interesting study in the use of junk rig, her peformance > characteristics cannot be compared to an offshore boat with the same junk > rig but more lateral plane. > > The steel junk schooner I saw was working in quite light air, I realize, and > a more in-depth analysis of her performance should be undertaken in a > variety of conditions. I imagine there'd be quite a difference in stronger > wind, and the junk rig may really come into its own on long offshore > passages. > > Here's an interesting opportunity: I am actually going to have a friend's > unfinished 36 foot Swain moved to and completed on my property over the next > year, and it will be rigged as a junk. When this craft is launched, it is > going to provide an excellent opportunity to see how the rig works on a 36. > I haven't sailed on a junk rig of that size, so I am definitely looking > forward to it. There'll be a full account of my experiences on this site, no > doubt, and maybe we can get some real performance data that we can work > with. > > Alex > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Don Taylor > To: > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 5:30 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Re junk rig my five cent ......some links for > designs > > > > My own experiences of sailing our junk-rigged Colvin Gazelle are > > the opposite to what Brent describes for Allen Farrel and China > > Cloud. > > > > Once the wind pipes up then a Gazelle will sail very well to windward > > as long as you keep up lots of sail area - which is not intimidating > > to do because she is easy to reef. On the other hand, light air > > performance to windward is poor. > > > > In one instance, we short-tacked for about 10 miles against F5-6 > > winds and the flood tide up the St. Johns river to Jacksonville, > > Florida. Our engine had died so I was forced to sail when I would > > normally have turned on the iron topsail. I was amazed at how well > > Pilger made progress. It was a bit of an "aha" experience for me. > > > > Another data point, FWIW, is that our jib (Gazelles are junk > > schooners with a western jib) will start luffing when going to > > windward before the foresail stops drawing. I usually have to fall > > off because the only western sail on our Gazelle objects, not because > > the junk sails stop drawing. > > > > From photographs that I have seen, China Cloud looks quite light and > > I suspect that she has little, if any, lateral plane. If so, then > > this would explain both her light and heavy air performance. > > > > I think that both the rig and the hull have to be considered when > > discussing performance characteristics. > > > > Don. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > |
2090|2057|2003-08-22 15:26:37|Stephen Wandling|Re: Junk Rig ?|In stating my understanding of Blondie's criteria for Jester's junk rig, I may have downplayed any consideration he might have had for windward performance. That was not my intention, and I apologize. Jester did of course sail to windward. I don't know of *anyone* who says differently. One question is, how well did it sail to windward. IMHO, the more important question is: Is Jester's sail a reasonable application of the classic junk rig sail as found on traditional coastal cruisers? Don Taylor is right. We should take this discussion to the junkrig group. Right now, origamiboats has more junk rig posts than the junkrig site! sae140 wrote: > You misunderstand me. What I don't understand is why someone with > Halser's lifetime of experience would take a rig supposedly incapable > of any windward performance whatsoever (which is what many would have > us believe about Jester's rig) onto the more northerly route of the > North Atlantic crossing - on a race - where some windward work might > reasonably be expected. |
2091|2086|2003-08-22 15:30:34|Ted Stone|Re: Waterline|Thanks Alex, what I really meant though is were is it? There is a waterline marked on the plans but no dimension that I can see. I read of one chap who sailed his boat until the weed started to grow and used that line as the water line for his antifouling. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2092|2086|2003-08-22 15:36:00|Stephen Wandling|Re: Waterline|Renting a laser level is a method of determining the location of the waterline, as is using a water level. My question regards "fixing" the line onto the hull. On a wooden hull and some FG hulls I have seen a groove at the waterline that allows you to maintain the waterline after sandblasting, sanding, etc. Does anyone know an analog for steel boats? Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > I don't know of a specific technique for Brent's boats, but I just > read about a relatively cheap method on the Bolger Chebacco website > (www.chebacco.com), where you use a cheap laser level mounted on a > tripod,and simply shoot the hull. If your boat is level, you swing the > laser(making sure the laser itself is level in all directions) in an > arc, makingmarks on the boat at regular intervals. |
2093|2085|2003-08-22 15:39:56|Ted Stone|Re: China Cloud - a unique case, and other considerations|Your junk rigged 36' Swain project is interesting Alex. When do you think it will be finished? The reason I ask is because, as you probably know, I am building one and if you finish before me then I can learn from your project and vice versa. At the moment I am about 9 months behind schedule in what was originally a 3 year project having started 14 months ago. Mine will have two masts. Originally I was going to have only one mast with a 640 sq ft sail but was advised that it would be difficult to handle Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2094|2094|2003-08-22 15:48:05|edward_stoneuk|Fabricating Anchors|The all weather lifeboats of the RNLI in the UK are equipped with two anchors that are fixed to chocks on the foredeck. One is a traditional fisherman type and the other is a plough. The rode passes through a bullring on the stem. I am thinking of making my own anchors of these types and am wondering what is the best source of suitable second-hand steel. Many years ago on the farm we welded pieces of old truck leaf springs to worn digger bucket teeth and cultivator tines to provide new cutting edges. The leaf springs were heated to remove the spring temper and provided this was done they were very tough. Does anyone have experience of using quality scrap to fabricate anchors? Regards, Ted|
2095|2095|2003-08-22 17:56:11|...|Re waterlines|Hi Alex, If you paint the waterline to your laser your marks it will be a horizontal strait line,which will look very odd when the boat is in the water. It has the visual effect of making the hull look like the bow and stern are drooping,what you need to do is adjust the line gradually running upwards more at the bow and less at the stern. I corrected the waterline on my cousin's 39 ft yacht that my he had painted to a horizontal line. I am not sure if there are any rules as to how much to adjust the line,I will have to look if there is anything in my books. Ted are you at the painting stage? I hope you are able to understand what I have described as it is getting late hear. Geoff Cheshire England|
2096|2095|2003-08-22 19:32:25|Ted Stone|Re: Re waterlines|Geoff, No I am nowhere near the final painting stage. I like to think about things in advance. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2097|2086|2003-08-22 23:50:07|Gord Schnell|Re: Waterline|I borrowed a survey laser level as used in the house building industry. I leveled the boat to its anticipated waterline, set the laser up inside and marked out all the floor plate attachments points, tanks top levels etc. I bought a cheap laser level from Costco for $29 and use it for everything. The only way to go. Gord Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > > I don't know of a specific technique for Brent's boats, > but I just read > about a relatively cheap method on the Bolger Chebacco > website > (www.chebacco.com), where you use a cheap laser level > mounted on a tripod, > and simply shoot the hull. If your boat is level, you > swing the laser > (making sure the laser itself is level in all directions) > in an arc, making > marks on the boat at regular intervals. The rest is a > matter of taping off > and painting your waterline. Hopefully it is as simple as > it sounds! (And > when is that ever the case :-) > > Some lasers are gimballed to allow self-levelling (maybe > rent this type?). > As long as your boat is level, this would make marking off > the waterline a > cinch. > > I have a listing for a laser level in our local building > supply catalogue at > a cost of $49.99 Canadian. Looks just like a house > builders' level, but has > batteries and shoots laser light out one end. It has a > convenient hole in > the centre for attaching to a tripod, and you'd use the > bubble vial on the > level itself set the equipment level in all directions. A > self-levelling > laser can be had for around $100 and up. The same > catalogue features a kit > which includes level, goggles, batteries, tripod with 3 > leveling wheels, > carrying case and two lenses for $89.99. > > Since you'd be walking back and forth sometimes right > through the laser > beam, make sure you wear eye protection to avoid zapping > your eyes. Some > lasers come with the glasses, some don't. > > Alex > > > What is the best way to mark off the waterline on a 36' > of Brent's > > design? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [click here] > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. |
2098|2086|2003-08-23 15:23:59|richytill|Re: Waterline|Waterline people, being on a tight budget, I used an old clear-ish garden hose (any fat clear hose would do), a piece of string, a roll of (on sale) masking tape to mark the waterline as follows: 1. as soon as the boat is painted and dry tie string to stern-rail and bow pullpit 2. fill hose with water (to simulate the sea) and purge bubbles 3. tie hose to string at stern and bow 4. set water level to the intersect of top aft point of skeg and and base of the transom 5. apply masking tape all around hull at water-level with a second person sighting the water level at the skeg intersect as you go 6. fill hose 2" -- 3" more elevation depending on how wide you want the boot-stripe 7 lay out with masking tape as before. You now have 2 horizontal, parallel lines ready to paint. When complete, it should look wider at the bow and stern as you look up from below but parallel from the side. Obviously the method assumes the boat to be perfectly level for this to work. By putting on several layers of paint on the boot-top, there is now a permanent contour mark for future re-painting. The paint was off tint red polyurethane that came free from a wharehouse clean-up. The boat is now floating and everything looks true and as it should. Cost: time and the tape. I am sure there are better ways, but this was all I could think of at the time. Have fun, rt adjust wat --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Wandling wrote: > Renting a laser level is a method of determining the location of the > waterline, as is using a water level. My question regards "fixing" the > line onto the hull. > > On a wooden hull and some FG hulls I have seen a groove at the waterline > that allows you to maintain the waterline after sandblasting, sanding, > etc. Does anyone know an analog for steel boats? > > Alex and Kim Christie wrote: > > > I don't know of a specific technique for Brent's boats, but I just > > read about a relatively cheap method on the Bolger Chebacco website > > (www.chebacco.com), where you use a cheap laser level mounted on a > > tripod,and simply shoot the hull. If your boat is level, you swing the > > laser(making sure the laser itself is level in all directions) in an > > arc, makingmarks on the boat at regular intervals. |
2099|2054|2003-08-23 15:41:38|richytill|Re: offshore rigs/spreader width|Greg, thanks for the comments on Euler. I was going to weld up a steel mast but found a tapered 51' aluminum pole abandond in a nearby garden. Investigation and audit trail showed it to be drawn from marine grade aluminum. The price was right so I bought it. It tapers from 10" at the base to 5" at the 47' elv. Being deck stepped I consulted Skene (who quotes Euler) and decided it better to go double spreader. What no book seems to supply is the length (thwart- ship dimension) of the uppers in relation to the lowers. Looking at rigs in the harbour indicates narrower at the top. If anyone has any insights into the function and geometry here, I would be greatful to hear about it. Thanks, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > First, let me put my preferences in perspective. The intended service for my boat is offshore cruising, with my wife and children. For this use I require a greater level of safety than I would for sailing single handed or with an all male crew. > > Perfection does not exist in human endeavors. Even the best rigging in the world will fail on occasion. Double spreader rigs provide a level of redundancy not found in single spreader rigs, in that double spreader rigs can survive a rigging failure that will typically bring down a single spreader rig. This is reflected in the boats seen offshore cruising, where double spreaders are common in sloops and single spreaders are common in ketches. The reason being that ketches can (hopefully) rely on the mizzen if the main fails, while sloops must take care to ensure the main never fails. > > From Euler we know that a column with a fixed end is twice as strong as a column with a pinned end. What does this tell us about deck stepped and keel stepped rigs? If you are going to deck step a mast, it must be twice as strong in section as a keel stepped mast. Usually it is cheaper to buy a longer mast than one that is twice as strong, which is the economic reason to keel step a mast. Also, a stronger mast is usually less efficient for sailing, which is the performance reason for a keel stepped mast. > > note: I have seen some builders place a pin in a keel stepped mast right at the deck level, to use the mast to support the deck. Do not do this as it can lead to stess cracks in the mast at the deck. Support the deck with a bulkhead or column. > > Euler also tells us that the strength of a mast varies inversely with the square of its unsupported length. How does this affect the choice of rigging? > > Consider a 36 foot boat. 10 ton displacement. 10 foot beat. 42 feet from deck to masthead. > > With a single spreader, the column length will be 42/2 = 21 feet. 21 squared = 441. > With double spreaders, the column length will be 42/3 = 14 feet. 14 squared = 196 > > Thus, double spreaders will yield a column strength advantage of 441/196 = 2.25. With single spreaders, the mast will need to be 2.25 times stronger than it would need to be with double spreaders. Thus, a deck stepped single spreader rig will need to be 2.25 * 2 = 4.5 times stronger than if it was keel stepped, with double spreaders. > > note: The ratio of 2.25 for single spreader versus double spreaders is not specific to this example. It can be calculated using the inverse square as follows (1/2 * 1/2)/(1/3 * 1/3) = (1/4)/ (1/9) = 9/4 = 2.25 > > However, we are not finished. The wires in a single spreader rig are at a steeper angle than the wires in a double spreader rig of the same beam. This means that more of the rigging force is applied downward as compression on the mast in a single spreader rig as compare to a double spreader rig. > > In our example, we will use 4 feet as the base of our rigging triangle. Consider that our worst case load is equal to the displacement of the boat. > > single spreader - force triangle = 21 x 4 x 21.38 = 10/21.38 * 21 = 9.8 tons compression > double spreader - force triangle = 14 x 4 x 14.56 = 10/14.56 * 14 = 9.6 tons compression > > Thus, single spreaders, the mast will have to be 2.25 / 9.6 * 9.8 = 2.3 times stonger in section as compared to double spreaders, and 4.6 times stonger in section if deck stepped with single spreaders as compared to keel stepped to double spreaders. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2100|2100|2003-08-26 03:24:59|John Olson|Re: Digest Number 567|Ted On Eclectus, we used a 35 lb CQR as the main anchor, but also carried a 45 lb Belfast pattern fisherman's anchor on the bow. I built the Belfast to a drawing from one of Ian Nicholson's books. I used mild steel offcuts and it worked just fine. Its no more like to bend or break than any other anchor. There was also a 120 lb Belfast (in 5 pieces) in the bilge. I only used it once, but was glad to have it when I did. Brent was building a plow anchor from mild steel, with good success as I recall. Cheers John origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:47:15 -0000 > From: "edward_stoneuk" > Subject: Fabricating Anchors > > The all weather lifeboats of the RNLI in the UK are equipped with two > anchors that are fixed to chocks on the foredeck. One is a > traditional fisherman type and the other is a plough. The rode > passes through a bullring on the stem. I am thinking of making my > own anchors of these types and am wondering what is the best source > of suitable second-hand steel. Many years ago on the farm we welded > pieces of old truck leaf springs to worn digger bucket teeth and > cultivator tines to provide new cutting edges. The leaf springs were > heated to remove the spring temper and provided this was done they > were very tough. Does anyone have experience of using quality scrap > to fabricate anchors? > Regards, > Ted --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 14/08/03|
2101|2086|2003-08-26 15:03:23|brentswain38|Re: Waterline|For the 36 footer measure down from the bottom of the bulwark pipe at the bow 4ft 6 inches to where it crosses the stem . That is the waterline at the bow. At the stern it's the bottom of the transom. As most people overload the boat and weed will grow up to 4 inches above where boats float , it's a good idea to take your antifouling six inches above that line. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Stone" wrote: > Thanks Alex, what I really meant though is were is it? There is a waterline marked on the plans but no dimension that I can see. I read of one chap who sailed his boat until the weed started to grow and used that line as the water line for his antifouling. > Regards, > Ted > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2102|2100|2003-08-26 15:12:56|brentswain38|Re: Digest Number 567|There is less work in building an entire delta anchor than in just building the hinge in a plow or danforth and it's a much better anchor. High tensile steel for the shank ( T1, AR or QT100) isn't hard to find.It would have to be welded with low hydrogen rod.The delta wouldn't be hard to make collapsible with a removable shank. The spade anchor looks even simpler and looks like an even better anchor. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Olson" wrote: > Ted > > On Eclectus, we used a 35 lb CQR as the main anchor, but also carried a 45 > lb Belfast pattern fisherman's anchor on the bow. I built the Belfast to a > drawing from one of Ian Nicholson's books. I used mild steel offcuts and it > worked just fine. Its no more like to bend or break than any other anchor. > > There was also a 120 lb Belfast (in 5 pieces) in the bilge. I only used it > once, but was glad to have it when I did. > > Brent was building a plow anchor from mild steel, with good success as I > recall. > > Cheers > > John > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > Message: 12 > > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:47:15 -0000 > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > Subject: Fabricating Anchors > > > > The all weather lifeboats of the RNLI in the UK are equipped with two > > anchors that are fixed to chocks on the foredeck. One is a > > traditional fisherman type and the other is a plough. The rode > > passes through a bullring on the stem. I am thinking of making my > > own anchors of these types and am wondering what is the best source > > of suitable second-hand steel. Many years ago on the farm we welded > > pieces of old truck leaf springs to worn digger bucket teeth and > > cultivator tines to provide new cutting edges. The leaf springs were > > heated to remove the spring temper and provided this was done they > > were very tough. Does anyone have experience of using quality scrap > > to fabricate anchors? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 14/08/03 |
2103|2100|2003-08-26 16:09:01|Stephen Wandling|Re: Digest Number 567|This site has all of the dimensions for various sizes of spade anchors, and even has downloadable templates that you have to print on A4 paper to make patterns: http://www.spade-anchor.co.uk/dimensions.htm brentswain38 wrote: > The spade anchor looks even simpler and looks like an even better > anchor. > |
2104|2100|2003-08-26 17:22:49|Ted Stone|Re: Digest Number 567|Thanks for the info on anchors. When I said plough I think I probably meant delta. It hasn't got a hinge anyway. With regard to high tensile steel for the shank ( T1, AR or QT100). What are those grades usually used for? How would one recognise it in a junkyard or do you usually buy it new? I agree about the Spade anchor, it looks good. Alain d'Hylas the inventor has been a live aboard for eleven years now and has, I believe, a patent on it. Regards, Ted [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2105|2054|2003-08-27 10:38:37|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: offshore rigs/spreader width|Sounds like you might have a (Sylvania?) lamp pole. I believe they make good masts. With the taper there is less benefit to keel step the stick, as the butt is already the strongest point. You sometimes want to move the lower spreaders upwards to increase headroom for walking by the lowers, and depending on the sailplan you might want to shorten the uppers spreaders to minimize chafe when sheeting a large genoa in tight. For appearance, you might adjust the spreader height/length so that each section is slightly shorter than the one below it, and the wires running to the mast are at approximately the same angle. I'd probably take a picture of a rig I liked the look of and measure it with a ruler, and use those relative dimensions as a starting point in Skeenes, scaled to the length of my mast. If the results from Skeenes gave an acceptable safety factor for my mast, I'd think that would be sufficient. Otherwise I'd adjust the spreader heights and lengths to ensure each section of the mast had sufficient support. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones ----- Original Message ----- From: richytill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: offshore rigs/spreader width Greg, thanks for the comments on Euler. I was going to weld up a steel mast but found a tapered 51' aluminum pole abandond in a nearby garden. Investigation and audit trail showed it to be drawn from marine grade aluminum. The price was right so I bought it. It tapers from 10" at the base to 5" at the 47' elv. Being deck stepped I consulted Skene (who quotes Euler) and decided it better to go double spreader. What no book seems to supply is the length (thwart- ship dimension) of the uppers in relation to the lowers. Looking at rigs in the harbour indicates narrower at the top. If anyone has any insights into the function and geometry here, I would be greatful to hear about it. Thanks, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > First, let me put my preferences in perspective. The intended service for my boat is offshore cruising, with my wife and children. For this use I require a greater level of safety than I would for sailing single handed or with an all male crew. > > Perfection does not exist in human endeavors. Even the best rigging in the world will fail on occasion. Double spreader rigs provide a level of redundancy not found in single spreader rigs, in that double spreader rigs can survive a rigging failure that will typically bring down a single spreader rig. This is reflected in the boats seen offshore cruising, where double spreaders are common in sloops and single spreaders are common in ketches. The reason being that ketches can (hopefully) rely on the mizzen if the main fails, while sloops must take care to ensure the main never fails. > > From Euler we know that a column with a fixed end is twice as strong as a column with a pinned end. What does this tell us about deck stepped and keel stepped rigs? If you are going to deck step a mast, it must be twice as strong in section as a keel stepped mast. Usually it is cheaper to buy a longer mast than one that is twice as strong, which is the economic reason to keel step a mast. Also, a stronger mast is usually less efficient for sailing, which is the performance reason for a keel stepped mast. > > note: I have seen some builders place a pin in a keel stepped mast right at the deck level, to use the mast to support the deck. Do not do this as it can lead to stess cracks in the mast at the deck. Support the deck with a bulkhead or column. > > Euler also tells us that the strength of a mast varies inversely with the square of its unsupported length. How does this affect the choice of rigging? > > Consider a 36 foot boat. 10 ton displacement. 10 foot beat. 42 feet from deck to masthead. > > With a single spreader, the column length will be 42/2 = 21 feet. 21 squared = 441. > With double spreaders, the column length will be 42/3 = 14 feet. 14 squared = 196 > > Thus, double spreaders will yield a column strength advantage of 441/196 = 2.25. With single spreaders, the mast will need to be 2.25 times stronger than it would need to be with double spreaders. Thus, a deck stepped single spreader rig will need to be 2.25 * 2 = 4.5 times stronger than if it was keel stepped, with double spreaders. > > note: The ratio of 2.25 for single spreader versus double spreaders is not specific to this example. It can be calculated using the inverse square as follows (1/2 * 1/2)/(1/3 * 1/3) = (1/4)/ (1/9) = 9/4 = 2.25 > > However, we are not finished. The wires in a single spreader rig are at a steeper angle than the wires in a double spreader rig of the same beam. This means that more of the rigging force is applied downward as compression on the mast in a single spreader rig as compare to a double spreader rig. > > In our example, we will use 4 feet as the base of our rigging triangle. Consider that our worst case load is equal to the displacement of the boat. > > single spreader - force triangle = 21 x 4 x 21.38 = 10/21.38 * 21 = 9.8 tons compression > double spreader - force triangle = 14 x 4 x 14.56 = 10/14.56 * 14 = 9.6 tons compression > > Thus, single spreaders, the mast will have to be 2.25 / 9.6 * 9.8 = 2.3 times stonger in section as compared to double spreaders, and 4.6 times stonger in section if deck stepped with single spreaders as compared to keel stepped to double spreaders. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2106|2106|2003-08-27 12:05:24|sae140|wheel weights|I've just been doing some 'market research' on wheel weights in the UK. Of the 6 tyre and exhaust places I checked, 2 didn't even know what happened to their used weights - they just get 'swept-up' - so probably end up in the waste bin(?). One gave them away 'for free' to the guy who collects the scrap exhausts. The rest sold them annually to scrap metal dealers - one for a kid's charity, the other two used the money for the tea fund. All of these guys commented that they get virtually nothing for wheel weights, as the lead is considered 'dirty' (containing both steel and antimony). When I offered to supply bins and offered to pay £200/ton equivalent - *all* of them showed great enthusiasm, much to my surprise. So - given that I'll end up with a pile of these weights eventually - what happens then ? Can they be installed 'as is', with (say) liquid cement poured in afterwards to fill the voids, or must they be melted- down ? I'm talking Swain 31ft (bilge keels). Colin|
2107|2106|2003-08-27 17:59:58|Phillip Allen|Re: wheel weights|I have melted a lot of wheel weights and find it fairly easy to do so...use propane or other outdoor gas of the deep fryer cookers kind. You�ll want to flux the metal but borax like that purchased at grocers for laundry works well enough. Safety concerns for the obvious...really BAD burns if you tip the mass over...it will be surprisingly heavy...have some sort of pig/ingot mould ready (actually a series of them)...I use the gauntleted leather work gloves/safety glasses...a stainless bowl like you'd use to mix bread dough in (about three gallon capacity)...pliers (two pair) to pick up the edge of bowl or ingot mould...the wheel weights will smell badly so think of your neighbors...a big spoon to skim off the dross and clips...BTW do not store the un-melted wheel weights where water may intrude...steam explosions are violent! All the foregoing is meant to be a sort of overview only, if you want to try this, ask again/with questions and I�ll try to help. Phillip Allen (in Arkansas) sae140 wrote: I've just been doing some 'market research' on wheel weights in the UK. Of the 6 tyre and exhaust places I checked, 2 didn't even know what happened to their used weights - they just get 'swept-up' - so probably end up in the waste bin(?). One gave them away 'for free' to the guy who collects the scrap exhausts. The rest sold them annually to scrap metal dealers - one for a kid's charity, the other two used the money for the tea fund. All of these guys commented that they get virtually nothing for wheel weights, as the lead is considered 'dirty' (containing both steel and antimony). When I offered to supply bins and offered to pay �200/ton equivalent - *all* of them showed great enthusiasm, much to my surprise. So - given that I'll end up with a pile of these weights eventually - what happens then ? Can they be installed 'as is', with (say) liquid cement poured in afterwards to fill the voids, or must they be melted- down ? I'm talking Swain 31ft (bilge keels). Colin Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2108|2106|2003-08-27 19:31:33|Don Taylor|Re: wheel weights|Colin: By wheel weights, do you mean those little weights that are attached to an automobile wheel rim to balance the wheel after installing a new tyre? Don. > sae140 wrote: > I've just been doing some 'market research' on wheel weights in the |
2109|2054|2003-08-27 19:54:30|richytill|Re: offshore rigs/spreader width|Greg, thanks for the feed-back. This mast will be mounted in a tabernacle on deck. I've found a formula from David Gerr that gives a way to mark of the vertical position by percent for the uppers and lowers. The same article corelates rigging loads for each position. Your equal angle for shrouds idea makes sense--will try to scale it out on paper and see what it looks like. There is ample headroom and then some for the lowers. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Sounds like you might have a (Sylvania?) lamp pole. I believe they make good masts. With the taper there is less benefit to keel step the stick, as the butt is already the strongest point. > > You sometimes want to move the lower spreaders upwards to increase headroom for walking by the lowers, and depending on the sailplan you might want to shorten the uppers spreaders to minimize chafe when sheeting a large genoa in tight. For appearance, you might adjust the spreader height/length so that each section is slightly shorter than the one below it, and the wires running to the mast are at approximately the same angle. > > I'd probably take a picture of a rig I liked the look of and measure it with a ruler, and use those relative dimensions as a starting point in Skeenes, scaled to the length of my mast. If the results from Skeenes gave an acceptable safety factor for my mast, I'd think that would be sufficient. Otherwise I'd adjust the spreader heights and lengths to ensure each section of the mast had sufficient support. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: richytill > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:41 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: offshore rigs/spreader width > > > Greg, thanks for the comments on Euler. I was going to weld up a > steel mast but found a tapered 51' aluminum pole abandond in a nearby > garden. Investigation and audit trail showed it to be drawn from > marine grade aluminum. The price was right so I bought it. It > tapers from 10" at the base to 5" at the 47' elv. Being deck stepped > I consulted Skene (who quotes Euler) and decided it better to go > double spreader. What no book seems to supply is the length (thwart- > ship dimension) of the uppers in relation to the lowers. Looking at > rigs in the harbour indicates narrower at the top. If anyone has any > insights into the function and geometry here, I would be greatful to > hear about it. Thanks, rt > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > First, let me put my preferences in perspective. The intended > service for my boat is offshore cruising, with my wife and children. > For this use I require a greater level of safety than I would for > sailing single handed or with an all male crew. > > > > Perfection does not exist in human endeavors. Even the best > rigging in the world will fail on occasion. Double spreader rigs > provide a level of redundancy not found in single spreader rigs, in > that double spreader rigs can survive a rigging failure that will > typically bring down a single spreader rig. This is reflected in the > boats seen offshore cruising, where double spreaders are common in > sloops and single spreaders are common in ketches. The reason being > that ketches can (hopefully) rely on the mizzen if the main fails, > while sloops must take care to ensure the main never fails. > > > > From Euler we know that a column with a fixed end is twice as > strong as a column with a pinned end. What does this tell us about > deck stepped and keel stepped rigs? If you are going to deck step a > mast, it must be twice as strong in section as a keel stepped mast. > Usually it is cheaper to buy a longer mast than one that is twice as > strong, which is the economic reason to keel step a mast. Also, a > stronger mast is usually less efficient for sailing, which is the > performance reason for a keel stepped mast. > > > > note: I have seen some builders place a pin in a keel stepped mast > right at the deck level, to use the mast to support the deck. Do not > do this as it can lead to stess cracks in the mast at the deck. > Support the deck with a bulkhead or column. > > > > Euler also tells us that the strength of a mast varies inversely > with the square of its unsupported length. How does this affect the > choice of rigging? > > > > Consider a 36 foot boat. 10 ton displacement. 10 foot beat. 42 > feet from deck to masthead. > > > > With a single spreader, the column length will be 42/2 = 21 feet. > 21 squared = 441. > > With double spreaders, the column length will be 42/3 = 14 feet. > 14 squared = 196 > > > > Thus, double spreaders will yield a column strength advantage of > 441/196 = 2.25. With single spreaders, the mast will need to be 2.25 > times stronger than it would need to be with double spreaders. Thus, > a deck stepped single spreader rig will need to be 2.25 * 2 = 4.5 > times stronger than if it was keel stepped, with double spreaders. > > > > note: The ratio of 2.25 for single spreader versus double > spreaders is not specific to this example. It can be calculated > using the inverse square as follows (1/2 * 1/2)/(1/3 * 1/3) = (1/4)/ > (1/9) = 9/4 = 2.25 > > > > However, we are not finished. The wires in a single spreader rig > are at a steeper angle than the wires in a double spreader rig of the > same beam. This means that more of the rigging force is applied > downward as compression on the mast in a single spreader rig as > compare to a double spreader rig. > > > > In our example, we will use 4 feet as the base of our rigging > triangle. Consider that our worst case load is equal to the > displacement of the boat. > > > > single spreader - force triangle = 21 x 4 x 21.38 = 10/21.38 * 21 > = 9.8 tons compression > > double spreader - force triangle = 14 x 4 x 14.56 = 10/14.56 * 14 > = 9.6 tons compression > > > > Thus, single spreaders, the mast will have to be 2.25 / 9.6 * 9.8 = > 2.3 times stonger in section as compared to double spreaders, and 4.6 > times stonger in section if deck stepped with single spreaders as > compared to keel stepped to double spreaders. > > > > Greg Elliott > > Yacht Lazy Bones > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2110|2106|2003-08-28 02:34:32|sae140|Re: wheel weights|Colin: By wheel weights, do you mean those little weights that are attached to an automobile wheel rim to balance the wheel after installing a new tyre? Don. Yes - them's the ones. I'd assumed that these were recycled by the wheel-weight manufacturers - but apparently not. Phillip - very much appreciate your comments. I've melted down quite a lot of lead water pipe in my teens and 20's (to make diving weights) - indoors, and without ventilation(!) - which probably accounts for my poor navigation skills these days .... I totally agree about the water/steam issue, but the weights I'm looking at are covered in road grime and soil, so really need to be hosed down first. A couple of weeks in a polytunnel would soon dry 'em off though. I can't quite see the point of using flux in this application - the lead melts, the dross floats and can be skimmed off. Pour the lead. What does the flux do ? (except make a stink) 'Course, if I was soldering or leadworking, then a decent flux would certainly be at the top of my list. However - the question I'd really appreciate some feedback on, is whether these weights can be installed 'as is' (well, after a good wash) ? Their sizes range from a few at (say) 3" long, but most are around 1", and they seem to bed down pretty-well. I guess the only way to know for sure what the typical 'percentage void' is, would be to melt down a sample and compare against an equivalent weight sample of unmelted. If we were looking at (say) 10-15% void space - which would be filled with cement anyway - I'd much prefer to chuck 'em in 'as is' and save the hassle of melting. I'm also conscious that the smaller the individual wheel-weights, the higher becomes the proportion of steel to lead .... I guess what I'm really asking, is whether there is sufficient capacity in the twin keels of the 31 footer to adopt a no-melt install of lead wheel-weights? Regards Colin|
2111|2106|2003-08-28 11:57:30|Don Taylor|Re: wheel weights|Colin: As they are such small chunks of lead, couldn't you just pound them into lead pigs? If you pounded a layer at a time into a mold then maybe you can get a solid, almost voidless lead pig. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > However - the question I'd really appreciate some feedback on, is > whether these weights can be installed 'as is' (well, after a good > wash) ? Their sizes range from a few at (say) 3" long, but most are > around 1", and they seem to bed down pretty-well. |
2112|2106|2003-08-28 14:02:07|sae140|Re: wheel weights|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Taylor" wrote: > Colin: > As they are such small chunks of lead, couldn't you just pound them > into lead pigs? Don. Don: good idea - but have tried this without success. These are much harder than pure lead, due to the antimony. (In cast form, this stuff would make a very good traditional exposed lead keel for a wooden boat !) I think it's either 'as is' or a melt job. Colin|
2113|2113|2003-08-28 16:33:49|kingsknight4life|life jackets|Hi. I'm considering buying a Mustang, floater coat. Does anyone out there have any experience with these or own one? They're expensive around $350 CDN so before I buy them I'd like someone with more real world experience to let me kknow what they think. Would I be better off buying an inflatable vest type PFD? Thanks Rowland|
2114|2113|2003-08-28 18:36:45|Alan Smith|Re: life jackets|I've had a Mustang floater coat for years and I really like it. As a matter of fact, their factory is only about a mile from where I live here in Richmond BC. Even though the initial cost is high, they last a long time. I find though that I can only wear it in the winter because it's so warm. In the spring-summer-fall you can get by with one of their vest type PFD's which are not so expensive. Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com|
2115|2113|2003-08-28 18:56:05|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: life jackets|The new coats are quite expensive, but I found an interesting alternative: a few years ago I bought a Canadian military-issue Mustang floater coat at a shop in downtown Victoria, BC, and I paid around $20 for it. It was identical to the civilian Mustang, except that it was black with reflective tapes, and perhaps more heavy-duty (it is quite heavy). It had a neoprene "diaper" that was tucked up the inside on the back part that could be unbuttoned, yanked down, and brought forward through the crotch and affixed by clips (that popped out of the front pockets) to keep hypthermia at bay during immersion situations. The lack of visibility of the black coat is an issue, though the hood that comes out of a zipped pocket around the collar is a bright orange, waterproof rubberized material. If that surplus store still exists I don't know if they sell those jackets, but other stores specializing in Canadian military (navy) surplus may have them, as they are very common on all our navy ships. I think I got quite a good deal, but I'm sure these surplus coats won't be as much as a new Mustang Floater. A quick search with Google yielded this link to Andersen Andersen Military Surplus http://www.stores.ebay.ca/andersonandersonsurplus , and their E-Bay store: The 22nd or so item down yields an orange Canadian military Mustang floater coat for US $35.00 for CDN $49. I guess you can get them in orange after all. E-mail the owner at mark@... , (found on their website at http://www.aasurplus.ca/ ) and he may be able to find you what you want without using their E-Bay portal. Alex From: kingsknight4life To: Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: [origamiboats] life jackets > Hi. I'm considering buying a Mustang, floater coat. Does anyone out > there have any experience with these or own one? They're expensive > around $350 CDN so before I buy them I'd like someone with more real > world experience to let me kknow what they think. Would I be better > off buying an inflatable vest type PFD? > > Thanks Rowland > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
2116|2116|2003-08-31 00:58:31|info@easysoftwareinc.com|G55 - updated pictures|Updated construction pictures, showing married hull and transom installation. http://www.easysoftwareinc.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_construction.htm Greg Elliott Easy Software Inc 1990 Casano Dr. N. Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1-604-987-0050 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2117|2117|2003-08-31 02:41:21|jim_both|converting sloop to cutter|I was wondering if the position of the mast in relation to the leading edge of the keel was sacrosanct, or indeed if there was any significant reason at all to establish this relation. I am planning to move the mast aft from station 4 to station 5 (approximate), but keep the CE of the sail plan where it is by altering the sail plan to a cutter rig. The leading edge of the keel is fixed around station 4. Of course I will have a qualifed person design my new cutter rig, but I was wondering in theory if this is a practical objective. Thank you, jim_both|
2118|2118|2003-08-31 21:24:45|info@easysoftwareinc.com|new web site - Origami Magic|www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2119|2117|2003-09-02 18:51:11|brentswain38|Re: converting sloop to cutter|This would be a big mistake. The stay sail doesn't alter the balance any . With the staysail up , or without it the balance feels the same. The only person I know who moved the mast aft to allow for the area of the staysail ended up with such a vicious weather helm that he couldn't get her to self steer downwind with the mainsail up and took 75 days to sail from Port Renfrew to Christmas Island, normally a 35 day or less trip.Leave the mast where it is on a sloop. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > I was wondering if the position of the mast in relation to the > leading edge of the keel was sacrosanct, or indeed if there was any > significant reason at all to establish this relation. > > I am planning to move the mast aft from station 4 to station 5 > (approximate), but keep the CE of the sail plan where it is by > altering the sail plan to a cutter rig. The leading edge of the keel > is fixed around station 4. > > Of course I will have a qualifed person design my new cutter rig, but > I was wondering in theory if this is a practical objective. > > Thank you, > > jim_both |
2120|2113|2003-09-02 18:56:48|brentswain38|Re: life jackets|I used to use floater coats years ago. After a while they get stiff and start to feel like wearing cardboard. The foam breaks away from the nylon and sags inside the coat. You sweat like a pig in them as they don't breath at all.It's been suggested that they are named floaters after their namesake , the man made logs that float away from boats which use a bucket for a head.After wearing one for a while ,you begin to understand the comparison.I wouldn't buy another one , unless I were a heavy drinker who lived on a boat. The ones with the crotch flaps were developed by U Vic for the coast guard ,when they found that the standard ones slip up in the water and do little to preserve body heat. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > The new coats are quite expensive, but I found an interesting alternative: a > few years ago I bought a Canadian military-issue Mustang floater coat at a > shop in downtown Victoria, BC, and I paid around $20 for it. It was > identical to the civilian Mustang, except that it was black with reflective > tapes, and perhaps more heavy-duty (it is quite heavy). It had a neoprene > "diaper" that was tucked up the inside on the back part that could be > unbuttoned, yanked down, and brought forward through the crotch and affixed > by clips (that popped out of the front pockets) to keep hypthermia at bay > during immersion situations. The lack of visibility of the black coat is an > issue, though the hood that comes out of a zipped pocket around the collar > is a bright orange, waterproof rubberized material. > > If that surplus store still exists I don't know if they sell those jackets, > but other stores specializing in Canadian military (navy) surplus may have > them, as they are very common on all our navy ships. I think I got quite a > good deal, but I'm sure these surplus coats won't be as much as a new > Mustang Floater. > > A quick search with Google yielded this link to Andersen Andersen Military > Surplus http://www.stores.ebay.ca/andersonandersonsurplus , and their E-Bay > store: The 22nd or so item down yields an orange Canadian military Mustang > floater coat for US $35.00 for CDN $49. I guess you can get them in orange > after all. > > E-mail the owner at mark@a... , (found on their website at > http://www.aasurplus.ca/ ) and he may be able to find you what you want > without using their E-Bay portal. > > Alex > > > From: kingsknight4life > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 1:32 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] life jackets > > > > Hi. I'm considering buying a Mustang, floater coat. Does anyone out > > there have any experience with these or own one? They're expensive > > around $350 CDN so before I buy them I'd like someone with more real > > world experience to let me kknow what they think. Would I be better > > off buying an inflatable vest type PFD? > > > > Thanks Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > |
2121|2121|2003-09-02 19:42:30|jim_both|Converting sloop to cutter|Thanks Brent I thought that weather helm was largely dependent on the relation between the CE of the sail plan and the CLR of the below-waterline hull shape (disregarding hull balance and angle of heel for the moment as outlined in your book). If I move the mast aft I can still maintain this relation by reducing the length of the boom and the area of the mainsail, and increasing the area of the staysail. I have not considered what happens when balancing-up under staysail alone, which I see as one of the advantages of a cutter rig. Thanks, jim_both|
2122|2122|2003-09-03 10:32:25|kwing175|Some Encouragement|As summer fades and fall begins a little encouragement. "I had no idea the final stages of building would be such a bottomless Grand Canyon of work, work, work. When I got discouraged, I reminded myself how lucky a man is to have a boat to work on." Author, Elliot Merrick, in "Cruising at Last"|
2123|2123|2003-09-03 20:48:12|Alex and Kim Christie|Swain 36 for sale|Hey group, Just spotted this new Swain 36 for sale the Buy and Sell, located on Vancouver Island. Looks like not a bad deal if it is fitted out for the price ($49,000 Cdn). http://www.buysell.com/showad.asp?id=24084629 Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2124|2124|2003-09-08 17:50:28|klroverland|Flush Deck 36 "My Island" Love It|Hi, I have been reading with great interest the happenings of the board and finally have a question. What all is involved in the manipulation of plans for the 36' with a flush deck? Are the topsides just raisecd to the height of the normal coach house height? How does Brent feel about this from a design not asthetic point of view? It would also appear that the cockpit has been made shorter, has it? If the owner of "My Island" checks in on this board,I would love to bounce a few questions off him--- Any info anyone has on "My Island" I would be interested in hearing Cheers and Beers Scott|
2125|2121|2003-09-09 20:32:18|brentswain38|Re: Converting sloop to cutter|Any moving of the mast aft would be a mistake. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Thanks Brent > > I thought that weather helm was largely dependent on the relation > between the CE of the sail plan and the CLR of the below-waterline > hull shape (disregarding hull balance and angle of heel for the > moment as outlined in your book). > > If I move the mast aft I can still maintain this relation by reducing > the length of the boom and the area of the mainsail, and increasing > the area of the staysail. I have not considered what happens when > balancing-up under staysail alone, which I see as one of the > advantages of a cutter rig. > > Thanks, jim_both |
2126|2123|2003-09-09 20:39:50|brentswain38|Re: Swain 36 for sale|Marcel just bought that boat and will soon be trailering it back to his home in Quebec. Those of you along the trans Canada Highway can keep an eye out for a well built, very shiny , bright red 36 footer. eastbound. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Hey group, > > Just spotted this new Swain 36 for sale the Buy and Sell, located on Vancouver Island. Looks like not a bad deal if it is fitted out for the price ($49,000 Cdn). > > http://www.buysell.com/showad.asp?id=24084629 > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2127|2123|2003-09-09 20:44:56|Joe Earsley|Re: Swain 36 for sale|Much to my dismay! I was very excited about that boat. I could not believe the care and finish of the hull. Kurt did some great work. I can only dream of that quality. Congratulations to Marcel on his new acquisition. What will her name be? -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 4:39 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Swain 36 for sale Marcel just bought that boat and will soon be trailering it back to his home in Quebec. Those of you along the trans Canada Highway can keep an eye out for a well built, very shiny , bright red 36 footer. eastbound. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Hey group, > > Just spotted this new Swain 36 for sale the Buy and Sell, located on Vancouver Island. Looks like not a bad deal if it is fitted out for the price ($49,000 Cdn). > > http://www.buysell.com/showad.asp?id=24084629 > > Alex > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Click Here! To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2128|2124|2003-09-09 20:56:12|brentswain38|Re: Flush Deck 36 "My Island" Love It|Raising the topsides to make a flush deck would raise the centre of gravity and make the boat quite tender. The reason people like flush decks is because most boats have sidedecks which are far too narrow, and their only experience is sailing on boats with very narrow sidedecks. With 2 ft wide sidedecks, the craving for flush decks diminishes considerably. Flush decks can be dangerous as there is nothing to get your feet against when the boat is well heeled, just a huge open space between you and the ocean. It feels a bit like trying to stay on the back of a whale, when well heeled in a rough sea.Any gain in interior space is visual only and quite useless otherwise. You can gain more visual space by putting mirrors on bulkheads and elsewhere. Flush deckers are more difficult to build as the pieces you have to handle are huge and it is far more difficult to control distortion on such huge expanses with less camber.Cabinsides act as longitudinal stringers and the space between such support is much smaller that between supports on a flush decker. The ultimate stability of a flush decker is far less than that of a boat with a trunk cabin as ,in the inverted position, the deck has far more resemblance to a raft that a boat with a trunk cabin has.If a flush decker capsizes , it would tend to stay capsized much longer than a boat with a trunk cabin would . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "klroverland" wrote: > Hi, I have been reading with great interest the happenings of the > board and finally have a question. What all is involved in the > manipulation of plans for the 36' with a flush deck? Are the > topsides just raisecd to the height of the normal coach house > height? How does Brent feel about this from a design not asthetic > point of view? It would also appear that the cockpit has been made > shorter, has it? If the owner of "My Island" checks in on this > board,I would love to bounce a few questions off him--- > Any info anyone has on "My Island" I would be interested in hearing > > Cheers and Beers > Scott |
2129|2123|2003-09-10 20:42:38|gschnell@shaw.ca|Re: Swain 36 for sale|Someone got a very nice boat. I have visited it on three ocassions during construction. Attention to detail was commendable. Nice job! It has set the bar much higher for my own boat. Gord [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2130|2124|2003-09-11 11:03:31|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Flush Deck 36 "My Island" Love It|I'd like to echo Brent's caution regarding flush decks. Many people ask for flush decks for reasons of space on deck. However, from a design point of view flush decks introduce problems and should not be installed without careful review and approval of the designer. I once thought I wanted flush decks on a boat. No longer. I have on more than one occasion found myself flat on my belly, in the lee of the cabin sides, as a green water swept over the decks. (In heavy weather, I normally go forward on the lee side of the cabin). That 1 foot of cabin side has on those occasions been my best friend, keeping me aboard, where otherwise the water would have swept me from the decks. Seriously, when 5 or six feet of breaking wave gets cut off by the hull and lands on the foredeck, there is no way you can stand up to that much force on an open deck. A cabin, with a good strong handrails on top, is in my mind very welcome. For passage making, we secure the dinghy upside down on the cabin top, firmly lashed in place to the handrails. If possible, pick a dinghy that fits on the cabin top, inside the handrails, and it will stay secure in the worst of conditions. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 5:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Flush Deck 36 "My Island" Love It Raising the topsides to make a flush deck would raise the centre of gravity and make the boat quite tender. The reason people like flush decks is because most boats have sidedecks which are far too narrow, and their only experience is sailing on boats with very narrow sidedecks. With 2 ft wide sidedecks, the craving for flush decks diminishes considerably. Flush decks can be dangerous as there is nothing to get your feet against when the boat is well heeled, just a huge open space between you and the ocean. It feels a bit like trying to stay on the back of a whale, when well heeled in a rough sea.Any gain in interior space is visual only and quite useless otherwise. You can gain more visual space by putting mirrors on bulkheads and elsewhere. Flush deckers are more difficult to build as the pieces you have to handle are huge and it is far more difficult to control distortion on such huge expanses with less camber.Cabinsides act as longitudinal stringers and the space between such support is much smaller that between supports on a flush decker. The ultimate stability of a flush decker is far less than that of a boat with a trunk cabin as ,in the inverted position, the deck has far more resemblance to a raft that a boat with a trunk cabin has.If a flush decker capsizes , it would tend to stay capsized much longer than a boat with a trunk cabin would . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "klroverland" wrote: > Hi, I have been reading with great interest the happenings of the > board and finally have a question. What all is involved in the > manipulation of plans for the 36' with a flush deck? Are the > topsides just raisecd to the height of the normal coach house > height? How does Brent feel about this from a design not asthetic > point of view? It would also appear that the cockpit has been made > shorter, has it? If the owner of "My Island" checks in on this > board,I would love to bounce a few questions off him--- > Any info anyone has on "My Island" I would be interested in hearing > > Cheers and Beers > Scott Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2131|2131|2003-09-11 11:15:10|info@easysoftwareinc.com|alloy construction|All boats are a compromise, as are the materials they are built in. Anyone considering building a steel sailboat might also consider aluminum construction. While labor costs have risen rapidly over the years, the cost of alloy has not. As a result, alloy construction is more economical than it once was. We believe that the life cycle cost of alloy construction may now be less than the cost of steel construction. The higher initial cost of alloy discourages many builders. However, this cost is in many cases an illusion. As we will see, the advantages of alloy offset the higher initial cost, so that the overall cost of construction in alloy may well be less than in steel. Alloy welding does intimidate some builders. However, in many respects alloy welding is not more difficult, it is just different. Experienced steel welders can have problems switching to alloy, because they do not make allowance for these differences. In some respects it may be easier for a novice to learn alloy welding, as compared to an experienced steel welder. One of the major advantages of origami style construction is that it can produce fair, round appearing hulls, without filler or painting. An alloy hull allows you to take full advantage of the origami technique, by leaving the hull unpainted. There is a significant cost saving in not having to paint a hull. Regular sandblasting and painting of a steel hull can be a significant cost over the life of the boat, and can eventually exceed the price of the steel. Alloy can be cut and worked with normal wood working tools. This is significant time saver when working with alloy, and can significantly reduce the labor cost of alloy construction. Even if you do the work yourself, there is a always an opportunity cost. You could be sailing rather than building. The weight saving of alloy is a major reason to consider it for sailboat construction. Alloy is approximately 1/2 the weight of steel for the same strength. Every time you move a piece of steel it is twice as much work as compared to alloy. This adds up when building a boat, allowing you to build a larger boat in alloy than steel for about the same amount of work. Labor aside, to see how the weight of alloy affects the overall costs of construction, consider our JM 50. The JM 50 has a displacement of approximately 30,000 lbs. In alloy, the bare hull (unballasted) weighs approximately 10,000 lbs. Approximately 10,000 lbs is ballast, giving a ballast displacement ration of 1/3. This leaves approximately 10,000 lbs for everything else (engine, rigging, interiors, fuel, water, stores, etc). In steel, the bare hull would weigh approximately 20,000 lbs. Allowing the same 10,000 lbs for everything else except the ballast, the boat would weigh 30,000 unballasted. Thus, the boat cannot be built as designed in steel, because there is insufficient buoyancy to take the ballast. In general, a boat designed for steel can be built in alloy, but a boat designed for alloy cannot be built in steel. In this case, to achieve a ballast displacement ration of 1/3, we would need to change the lines of the boat to raise the displacement to 45,000 lbs and change the ballast to 15,000 lbs to suit. However, this is not the full story. To handle the increased displacement in steel, we also would need to increase the size of the engine, fuel tanks, mast, rigging, sails, winches, blocks, anchors, chain, lines, etc., to handle the larger displacement. This means that the 10,000 lbs we have allocated to handle the weight of this equipment will not be adequate. We need to increase this from 10,000 lbs to say 15,000 lbs, for a total displacement of approximately 50,000 lbs. So, our two 50 foot boats, one in alloy at 30,000 lbs and one in steel at 50,000 lbs will have approximately the same effective capacity for cruising, but the steel boat will have a significantly greater displacement. How does this increased displacement affect costs? Outfitting a boat is a significant portion of the cost of building. The cost of engines, rigging, sails, anchors, winches, etc varies approximately as the weight of the boat. Thus, it will cost significantly more to outfit a 50,000 lb boat as compared to a 30,000 lb boat. While steel might appear initially cheaper, it can be more expensive to outfit because of the increased weight. For example, consider the JM 50. The alloy for this boat is approximately $45,000, and lead approximately $5000 for a hull cost of $50,000. In steel the hull would cost approximately $15,000 and the lead $7500 and blasting and painting $7500 for a total cost of $30,000. Outfitting a 30,000 lb boat might easily cost $30,000. At that rate, outfitting a 50,000 lb boat would cost $50,000. Thus the total cost of materials in alloy would be (50+30) = $80,000 and the total cost of materials in steel would be (30+50) = $80,000. Thus, after outfitting, there is no significant material costs between alloy or steel. The alloy boat would likely be quicker to construct - leading to a lower labor cost. The alloy hull would likely have a better resale value, and would not require the ongoing maintenance of steel. Both boats would have approximately the same effective capacity. But, for cruising, a 30,000 lb boat is easier to handle than a 50,000 lb boat. Every time you need to raise/lower/adjust the sails you will be aware of the difference. Also, a 30,000 lb boat is likely cheaper to maintain than a 50,000 lb boat, because the gear is that much smaller and less expensive to repair when something breaks. As can be seen from this example, initial costs should not be the sole reason you decide to build in steel over alloy - because there may be no cost advantage. We believe on balance that over the last 20 years alloy has reached the point where it can be more economical to build in alloy than it is in steel. Note: The figures presented here are approximations, meant only as an example. You are encouraged to repeat the exercise for your own situation. The benefits of alloy over steel are not as great if you simply build a boat designed for steel in alloy. We would expect a boat designed for steel, but built in alloy, would cost more than the same boat built in steel. To take advantage of alloy you should investigate designs specific for alloy, where the weight saving is incorporated into the design from the beginning, resulting in smaller, lower cost equipment throughout. Where the initial higher cost of the alloy has been offset by the weight savings as part of the design. Greg Elliott www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2132|2131|2003-09-12 23:00:10|brentswain38|Re: alloy construction|Steel for a 36 footer , wheelabraded and primed, thus needing no sandblasting,is around the $6,000 to $7,000 range. A friend who built a 36 in alloy spend $20,000 on metal alone. Unpainted aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to fry eggs on. I had to paint the inside of my aluminium dinghy white last winter in Tonga so I wouldn't burn my feet in it . The only guaranteed way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it according a friend who has built aluminium boats for a living for most of his life. Aluminium welding equipment and gas is very expensive and you can only do your welding inside, or , outside under very calm or dry conditions which can seriously slow progress ,or make it far more expensive. I've built a lot of steel boats outside in the winter using very low cost materials and equipment ,under conditions which would make aluminium work impossible. When you can tack a complete shell together in less than 100 hours, labour isn't a big expense anyway. My current boat is 19 years old and still has the original paint on it, in excellent condition. I spend a couple of hours a year , and less than $20 a year maintaining it. It's never been sandblasted and as long as I look after the paint job it won't need to be in my lifetime. Having done the trip from BC to Ensenada in 14 days, south of Frisco in 6 days,best 24 hour run of 175 miles ,and two trips from Hawaii to BC in 23 days doesn't make it a slow boat. The most you would probably shave off those times in a lighter boat of the same size is 2 or 3 days.The ride in a lighter boat would be consideraably less comfortable. If you hate being at sea that much, take the plane. Aluminium can be a wonderful boatbuilding material as long as your so rich , that the cost of the boat won't cost you any freedom time ( which is what pleasure boats are supposed to be for.) Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > All boats are a compromise, as are the materials they are built in. Anyone considering building a steel sailboat might also consider aluminum construction. While labor costs have risen rapidly over the years, the cost of alloy has not. As a result, alloy construction is more economical than it once was. We believe that the life cycle cost of alloy construction may now be less than the cost of steel construction. > > The higher initial cost of alloy discourages many builders. However, this cost is in many cases an illusion. As we will see, the advantages of alloy offset the higher initial cost, so that the overall cost of construction in alloy may well be less than in steel. > > Alloy welding does intimidate some builders. However, in many respects alloy welding is not more difficult, it is just different. Experienced steel welders can have problems switching to alloy, because they do not make allowance for these differences. In some respects it may be easier for a novice to learn alloy welding, as compared to an experienced steel welder. > > One of the major advantages of origami style construction is that it can produce fair, round appearing hulls, without filler or painting. An alloy hull allows you to take full advantage of the origami technique, by leaving the hull unpainted. There is a significant cost saving in not having to paint a hull. Regular sandblasting and painting of a steel hull can be a significant cost over the life of the boat, and can eventually exceed the price of the steel. > > Alloy can be cut and worked with normal wood working tools. This is significant time saver when working with alloy, and can significantly reduce the labor cost of alloy construction. Even if you do the work yourself, there is a always an opportunity cost. You could be sailing rather than building. > > The weight saving of alloy is a major reason to consider it for sailboat construction. Alloy is approximately 1/2 the weight of steel for the same strength. Every time you move a piece of steel it is twice as much work as compared to alloy. This adds up when building a boat, allowing you to build a larger boat in alloy than steel for about the same amount of work. > > Labor aside, to see how the weight of alloy affects the overall costs of construction, consider our JM 50. The JM 50 has a displacement of approximately 30,000 lbs. In alloy, the bare hull (unballasted) weighs approximately 10,000 lbs. Approximately 10,000 lbs is ballast, giving a ballast displacement ration of 1/3. This leaves approximately 10,000 lbs for everything else (engine, rigging, interiors, fuel, water, stores, etc). > > In steel, the bare hull would weigh approximately 20,000 lbs. Allowing the same 10,000 lbs for everything else except the ballast, the boat would weigh 30,000 unballasted. Thus, the boat cannot be built as designed in steel, because there is insufficient buoyancy to take the ballast. In general, a boat designed for steel can be built in alloy, but a boat designed for alloy cannot be built in steel. > > In this case, to achieve a ballast displacement ration of 1/3, we would need to change the lines of the boat to raise the displacement to 45,000 lbs and change the ballast to 15,000 lbs to suit. > > However, this is not the full story. To handle the increased displacement in steel, we also would need to increase the size of the engine, fuel tanks, mast, rigging, sails, winches, blocks, anchors, chain, lines, etc., to handle the larger displacement. This means that the 10,000 lbs we have allocated to handle the weight of this equipment will not be adequate. We need to increase this from 10,000 lbs to say 15,000 lbs, for a total displacement of approximately 50,000 lbs. > > So, our two 50 foot boats, one in alloy at 30,000 lbs and one in steel at 50,000 lbs will have approximately the same effective capacity for cruising, but the steel boat will have a significantly greater displacement. How does this increased displacement affect costs? > > Outfitting a boat is a significant portion of the cost of building. The cost of engines, rigging, sails, anchors, winches, etc varies approximately as the weight of the boat. Thus, it will cost significantly more to outfit a 50,000 lb boat as compared to a 30,000 lb boat. While steel might appear initially cheaper, it can be more expensive to outfit because of the increased weight. > > For example, consider the JM 50. The alloy for this boat is approximately $45,000, and lead approximately $5000 for a hull cost of $50,000. In steel the hull would cost approximately $15,000 and the lead $7500 and blasting and painting $7500 for a total cost of $30,000. > > Outfitting a 30,000 lb boat might easily cost $30,000. At that rate, outfitting a 50,000 lb boat would cost $50,000. Thus the total cost of materials in alloy would be (50+30) = $80,000 and the total cost of materials in steel would be (30+50) = $80,000. Thus, after outfitting, there is no significant material costs between alloy or steel. > > The alloy boat would likely be quicker to construct - leading to a lower labor cost. The alloy hull would likely have a better resale value, and would not require the ongoing maintenance of steel. Both boats would have approximately the same effective capacity. But, for cruising, a 30,000 lb boat is easier to handle than a 50,000 lb boat. Every time you need to raise/lower/adjust the sails you will be aware of the difference. Also, a 30,000 lb boat is likely cheaper to maintain than a 50,000 lb boat, because the gear is that much smaller and less expensive to repair when something breaks. > > As can be seen from this example, initial costs should not be the sole reason you decide to build in steel over alloy - because there may be no cost advantage. We believe on balance that over the last 20 years alloy has reached the point where it can be more economical to build in alloy than it is in steel. > > Note: The figures presented here are approximations, meant only as an example. You are encouraged to repeat the exercise for your own situation. The benefits of alloy over steel are not as great if you simply build a boat designed for steel in alloy. We would expect a boat designed for steel, but built in alloy, would cost more than the same boat built in steel. > > To take advantage of alloy you should investigate designs specific for alloy, where the weight saving is incorporated into the design from the beginning, resulting in smaller, lower cost equipment throughout. Where the initial higher cost of the alloy has been offset by the weight savings as part of the design. > > Greg Elliott > www.origamimagic.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2133|2131|2003-09-14 12:36:55|brentswain38|Re: alloy construction|Another problem with alloy construction is the difficulty with finding an effective antifouling .I saw a good example of this when I left Tonga in April bound for Vancouver Island ,at the same time as a Perry designed sloop rigged aluminium fin keeler with approximatly the same waterline as me. I took 57 days, he took 99 days . When we arrived in Ucluelet, he rafted up to me and we dried out on the beach. I had a dozen or so goose necked barnacles , he had a solid three inch layer over most of his hull underwater.I have tried the aluminium compatible antifouling in the past and found them abysmally ineffective. They are also very difficult to find. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Steel for a 36 footer , wheelabraded and primed, thus needing no > sandblasting,is around the $6,000 to $7,000 range. A friend who > built a 36 in alloy spend $20,000 on metal alone. > Unpainted aluminium in the tropics gets hot enough to fry eggs > on. I had to paint the inside of my aluminium dinghy white last > winter in Tonga so I wouldn't burn my feet in it . The only > guaranteed way to get paint to stick to aluminium is to sandblast it > according a friend who has built aluminium boats for a living for > most of his life. > Aluminium welding equipment and gas is very expensive and you can > only do your welding inside, or , outside under very calm or dry > conditions which can seriously slow progress ,or make it far more > expensive. I've built a lot of steel boats outside in the winter > using very low cost materials and equipment ,under conditions which > would make aluminium work impossible. > When you can tack a complete shell together in less than 100 > hours, labour isn't a big expense anyway. > My current boat is 19 years old and still has the original paint > on it, in excellent condition. I spend a couple of hours a year , > and less than $20 a year maintaining it. It's never been sandblasted > and as long as I look after the paint job it won't need to be in my > lifetime. > Having done the trip from BC to Ensenada in 14 days, south of > Frisco in 6 days,best 24 hour run of 175 miles ,and two trips from > Hawaii to BC in 23 days doesn't make it a slow boat. The most you > would probably shave off those times in a lighter boat of the same > size is 2 or 3 days.The ride in a lighter boat would be > consideraably less comfortable. If you hate being at sea that much, > take the plane. > Aluminium can be a wonderful boatbuilding material as long as > your so rich , that the cost of the boat won't cost you any freedom > time ( which is what pleasure boats are supposed to be for.) > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > All boats are a compromise, as are the materials they are built > in. Anyone considering building a steel sailboat might also > consider aluminum construction. While labor costs have risen > rapidly over the years, the cost of alloy has not. As a result, > alloy construction is more economical than it once was. We believe > that the life cycle cost of alloy construction may now be less than > the cost of steel construction. > > > > The higher initial cost of alloy discourages many builders. > However, this cost is in many cases an illusion. As we will see, > the advantages of alloy offset the higher initial cost, so that the > overall cost of construction in alloy may well be less than in > steel. > > > > Alloy welding does intimidate some builders. However, in many > respects alloy welding is not more difficult, it is just different. > Experienced steel welders can have problems switching to alloy, > because they do not make allowance for these differences. In some > respects it may be easier for a novice to learn alloy welding, as > compared to an experienced steel welder. > > > > One of the major advantages of origami style construction is that > it can produce fair, round appearing hulls, without filler or > painting. An alloy hull allows you to take full advantage of the > origami technique, by leaving the hull unpainted. There is a > significant cost saving in not having to paint a hull. Regular > sandblasting and painting of a steel hull can be a significant cost > over the life of the boat, and can eventually exceed the price of > the steel. > > > > Alloy can be cut and worked with normal wood working tools. This > is significant time saver when working with alloy, and can > significantly reduce the labor cost of alloy construction. Even if > you do the work yourself, there is a always an opportunity cost. > You could be sailing rather than building. > > > > The weight saving of alloy is a major reason to consider it for > sailboat construction. Alloy is approximately 1/2 the weight of > steel for the same strength. Every time you move a piece of steel > it is twice as much work as compared to alloy. This adds up when > building a boat, allowing you to build a larger boat in alloy than > steel for about the same amount of work. > > > > Labor aside, to see how the weight of alloy affects the overall > costs of construction, consider our JM 50. The JM 50 has a > displacement of approximately 30,000 lbs. In alloy, the bare hull > (unballasted) weighs approximately 10,000 lbs. Approximately 10,000 > lbs is ballast, giving a ballast displacement ration of 1/3. This > leaves approximately 10,000 lbs for everything else (engine, > rigging, interiors, fuel, water, stores, etc). > > > > In steel, the bare hull would weigh approximately 20,000 lbs. > Allowing the same 10,000 lbs for everything else except the ballast, > the boat would weigh 30,000 unballasted. Thus, the boat cannot be > built as designed in steel, because there is insufficient buoyancy > to take the ballast. In general, a boat designed for steel can be > built in alloy, but a boat designed for alloy cannot be built in > steel. > > > > In this case, to achieve a ballast displacement ration of 1/3, we > would need to change the lines of the boat to raise the displacement > to 45,000 lbs and change the ballast to 15,000 lbs to suit. > > > > However, this is not the full story. To handle the increased > displacement in steel, we also would need to increase the size of > the engine, fuel tanks, mast, rigging, sails, winches, blocks, > anchors, chain, lines, etc., to handle the larger displacement. > This means that the 10,000 lbs we have allocated to handle the > weight of this equipment will not be adequate. We need to increase > this from 10,000 lbs to say 15,000 lbs, for a total displacement of > approximately 50,000 lbs. > > > > So, our two 50 foot boats, one in alloy at 30,000 lbs and one in > steel at 50,000 lbs will have approximately the same effective > capacity for cruising, but the steel boat will have a significantly > greater displacement. How does this increased displacement affect > costs? > > > > Outfitting a boat is a significant portion of the cost of > building. The cost of engines, rigging, sails, anchors, winches, > etc varies approximately as the weight of the boat. Thus, it will > cost significantly more to outfit a 50,000 lb boat as compared to a > 30,000 lb boat. While steel might appear initially cheaper, it can > be more expensive to outfit because of the increased weight. > > > > For example, consider the JM 50. The alloy for this boat is > approximately $45,000, and lead approximately $5000 for a hull cost > of $50,000. In steel the hull would cost approximately $15,000 and > the lead $7500 and blasting and painting $7500 for a total cost of > $30,000. > > > > Outfitting a 30,000 lb boat might easily cost $30,000. At that > rate, outfitting a 50,000 lb boat would cost $50,000. Thus the > total cost of materials in alloy would be (50+30) = $80,000 and the > total cost of materials in steel would be (30+50) = $80,000. Thus, > after outfitting, there is no significant material costs between > alloy or steel. > > > > The alloy boat would likely be quicker to construct - leading to a > lower labor cost. The alloy hull would likely have a better resale > value, and would not require the ongoing maintenance of steel. Both > boats would have approximately the same effective capacity. But, > for cruising, a 30,000 lb boat is easier to handle than a 50,000 lb > boat. Every time you need to raise/lower/adjust the sails you will > be aware of the difference. Also, a 30,000 lb boat is likely > cheaper to maintain than a 50,000 lb boat, because the gear is that > much smaller and less expensive to repair when something breaks. > > > > As can be seen from this example, initial costs should not be the > sole reason you decide to build in steel over alloy - because there > may be no cost advantage. We believe on balance that over the last > 20 years alloy has reached the point where it can be more economical > to build in alloy than it is in steel. > > > > Note: The figures presented here are approximations, meant only > as an example. You are encouraged to repeat the exercise for your > own situation. The benefits of alloy over steel are not as great if > you simply build a boat designed for steel in alloy. We would > expect a boat designed for steel, but built in alloy, would cost > more than the same boat built in steel. > > > > To take advantage of alloy you should investigate designs specific > for alloy, where the weight saving is incorporated into the design > from the beginning, resulting in smaller, lower cost equipment > throughout. Where the initial higher cost of the alloy has been > offset by the weight savings as part of the design. > > > > Greg Elliott > > www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2134|2124|2003-09-15 20:10:54|richytill|Re: Flush Deck 36 "My Island" Love It|Scott, sorry not to reply yet--been away guiding in the mountains. Brent has experience in offshore design, testing and practice--heed the cautions as noted in the responses given. In point of fact, the flush deck on My Island was very easy to make and required no heavy lifting. I simply laid out the whole deck on the ground, cut it out in one session and slid each panel up on deck after welding the deck beams in place in the flat position. I used old bits of pipe as a ramp to slide the panels up and pulled/steered with 2 come-alongs. It was fun, slick and quick. But, (and take this seriously)unless you are well versed in welding light plate the whole thing can buckle up into a real mess. The good news is that there are only 2 butt welds accross the whole deck--still the welding sequence is critical. All that said, the flat (curved) deck is not the design and for many, many other reasons it is best to stay with the plan. I have spent most of my life exploring, experimenting and investigating- -that's just my way. In summary, better to listen to the experts than the experimenters, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "klroverland" wrote: > Hi, I have been reading with great interest the happenings of the > board and finally have a question. What all is involved in the > manipulation of plans for the 36' with a flush deck? Are the > topsides just raisecd to the height of the normal coach house > height? How does Brent feel about this from a design not asthetic > point of view? It would also appear that the cockpit has been made > shorter, has it? If the owner of "My Island" checks in on this > board,I would love to bounce a few questions off him--- > Any info anyone has on "My Island" I would be interested in hearing > > Cheers and Beers > Scott |
2135|2135|2003-09-16 06:29:03|sae140|welding info|for those who have the need, http://www.tpub.com/steelworker1/ reveals everything you ever wanted to know about welding, including the overhead stuff. http://www.millerwelds.com/education/tech_articles is also a mine of welding info. I'm sure there are many other equally good sites - I just happen to have found these this morning. http://www.tpub.com also offer info in other areas, mostly military- related. Colin|
2136|2131|2003-09-16 07:56:32|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: alloy construction|Alloy weighs only 1/2 as much as steel. Thus to achieve the same performance as steel, an alloy hull can use less lead, smaller sails, smaller mast, lighter rigging, smaller engine, smaller anchors, and generally smaller and less expensive equipment throughout. This cost saving, when incorporated into the design from the beginning, can result in a similar overall cost for a finished boat, regardless of whether it is built in alloy or steel. A local builder of Swain boats list these prices for a 36' hull on their web site: steel $ 39,000 alloy $ 46,000 From Brent's figures there is a $13,000-14,000 difference in the price of alloy and steel for a 36 footer. From these builders, there is only a $7,000 difference in the price of a hull. This suggests that these builders were able to save 6,000-$7,000 in labor and overhead by building in alloy, which is in line with our experiences. However, these are not the only savings. The hull is only part of the cost of a finished yacht. Many reference texts place the cost of a hull at only 1/4 to 1/3 the total cost of the finished yacht. By these accounts, it can be the outfitting, not the hull that is the major cost of a finished yacht. Simply put, by reducing weight, alloy construction allows you to reduce the cost of outfitting. As the cost of the outfitting can exceed the cost of the hull, alloy construction can allow you to build a boat for similar or perhaps even less overall cost than in steel. Steel and alloy are both fine building materials. We are not suggesting that anyone should build exclusively in alloy or in steel. Rather, that when you look at the overall cost of a boat, you may find that there is little difference between the total cost of alloy or steel. Coupled with the typically higher resale value for alloy as compared to steel, you may find that alloy provides better long term value for the time and $$ invested in building a boat. Here are some articles that might be informative: http://persweb.direct.ca/tbolt/aluminum.htm http://www.kastenmarine.com/alumVSsteel.htm greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2137|2137|2003-09-16 12:57:45|lingarnanaimo|Righting Moment for Brent Swain 36|I am currently looking at purchasing a new aluminum mast and boom for our 36 foot Brent Swain currently under construction in Nanaimo, BC. The spar manufacturers would like to know the righting moment for the boat at 30 degrees of heel. I can not find this information on the plans or in Brents book. Has anyone gone through this process and could you forward your information. One manufacturer is recommending a mast section based on 26,000 foot-pounds of righting moment at 30 degrees of heel. Is this a safe limit for an oofshore boat? Thanks, Gary|
2138|2138|2003-09-16 17:51:36|Mike|"Material choices for idiots" - the K.I.S.S. approach|So, ya wanna build your own boat, do ya? But what metal should ya use? I would suggest that if you are following designs that are specifically for aluminum and you are going to build this boat in your fabrication shop that is tooled for alum. fab. and you don't have a concern over how much that boat will cost to build, then... your still better off to build in steel. Why? Glad you asked... 1) a welded joint in steel construction has a strength equal to the base metal, whereas, in alum. const. the strength of the joint isn't even close. 2) the skill required to competently weld aluminum - to x-ray quality - is high and, even among experienced alum. welders, hot cracking, porosity, undercutting and hard spots are not uncommon phenomena. 3) The difference in costs for weld equipment, filler metal, shielding gases(alum.fab.) are great - steel fabrication being the cheaper. 4) Aluminum does not react well with other metals and will corrode & deteriorate where in contact with dissimiliar metals.(stanchions, mast base, shroud/stay bases, etc. - take a look at any sailboat at your local marina and count the number of places where dissimiliar metals would come in to contact with an aluminum hull. 5) If you discover a poorly welded joint during construction, it is, by far, easier to repair the steel-constructed hull or deck joint. 6) steel is easier to paint and repair - very important when your laid up in "Nowheresville, South Pacific", or even at "Some Small Island, British Columbia". 7) The belief that you can use a smaller rigging, mast, etc. on an aluminum boat than with a comparably-sized(waterline length) steel one is erroneous. you use the maximum allowable rigging, mast, winches/winch bases, stanchions, pushpits/pulpits, etc. for reasons of safety concerns in adverse wind/sea-state conditions, regardless of your hull material - ergo, the maximum that the boat in question can adequately handle. 8) Another consideration - believe it, or not - is fire. During the Falkland Islands War, the British Navy discovered that there was a major flaw in their new aluminum-hulled warships; aluminum can burn and, when it does, it does so at an alarming rate and is not easily extinguished.(Don't take my word for it, look it up!) So, there we are. an aluminum boat of equal waterline length and design will be a bit faster and - except where the aluminum meets dissimiliar metals - more resistant to corrosion than the steel- hulled version. Yet, I have always viewed this group as a place for discussing the commonsense approach to building a quality sailboat on a budget. In keeping with this philosophy, if you want to build the best boat on a limited budget, the OBVIOUS choice is steel - the cost savings will be substantial - if greater corrosion resistance is desired, use an alloyed steel. That's my opinion - I look forward to hearing dissenting views. Mike|
2139|2138|2003-09-17 01:54:49|mynode|Re: "Material choices for idiots" - the K.I.S.S. approach|Mike wrote: > 1) a welded joint in steel construction has a strength equal to the > base metal, whereas, in alum. const. the strength of the joint isn't > even close. Here is a good page on relative strength: http://www.kastenmarine.com/alumVSsteel.htm > 2) the skill required to competently weld aluminum - to x-ray > quality - is high and, even among experienced alum. welders, hot > cracking, porosity, undercutting and hard spots are not uncommon > phenomena. I think this is an overstatement. I doubt you'd find much x-ray quality welding on an amateur built boat anyway and probably not much on professionaly built boats either. Welding aluminum is different, but not that much more difficult. It is a little more sensitive to prep, but once you get your joint and rig set up right, it welds beautifully. IMHO, this should not be a factor in ones choice of material. > 3) The difference in costs for weld equipment, filler metal, > shielding gases(alum.fab.) are great - steel fabrication being the > cheaper. I would suggest that given the amount and type of welding needed on a metal boat you could save *A LOT* of time and get better quality by using a wire feed rig anyway. Buy one, build your boat and then sell it. This way, it's a few hundred dollars over the cost a stick rig at most. But then for aluminum I'd probably want a plasma cutter as well. Off the top of my head, I can't comment on the cost difference between wire/gas and sticks, but you would need more filler for the thicker aluminum sections. If you are using a gas shield you will need a sheltered work area and argon for aluminum is more expensive than C02 mixes. While I have no experinece with them (and am a little leery of them), I do know that aluminum flux core wire and even sticks exist. Anybody ever use them? > 5) If you discover a poorly welded joint during construction, it is, > by far, easier to repair the steel-constructed hull or deck joint. Aluminum grinds easier. :-) Do you have a solution other than grinding the offending material out and rewelding it? > 7) The belief that you can use a smaller rigging, mast, etc. on an > aluminum boat than with a comparably-sized(waterline length) steel > one is erroneous. you use the maximum allowable rigging, mast, > winches/winch bases, stanchions, pushpits/pulpits, etc. for reasons > of safety concerns in adverse wind/sea-state conditions, regardless > of your hull material - ergo, the maximum that the boat in question > can adequately handle. Greg Elliott's points about rig/engines etc. seemed valid to me. Given a particular performance specification, the heavier boat would need larger sails and engine. Larger sails = higher loads = stronger rigging all of which would increase cost. Larger engine = higher cost and more fuel = more weight and volume etc. - Mark|
2140|2138|2003-09-17 10:57:09|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: "Material choices for idiots" - the K.I.S.S. approach|Let's consider a theoretical 36 footer, an approximation of the 36 footer built locally based on Brent's designs. From the local builder: steel - $39,000 alloy - $46,000 difference - $7,000 I don't have the weights for Brent's boat. The following are my approximations for the purposes of demonstration only. In steel: steel - 10,000 lbs lead - 5,000 lbs rig, engine, tanks, interior, stores, etc, - 5,000 lbs total - 20,000 lbs ballast displacement ratio, 25%. In alloy (option 1): alloy - 5,000 lbs lead - 5,000 lbs rig, engine, tanks, interior, stores, etc, - 5,000 lbs total - 15,000 lbs ballast displacement ratio, 33%. Option 1, build the boat in alloy, without changing anything else. The boat will be stiffer, probably better capsize resistance, and likely faster under sail and power. The boat will be able to carry an additional 5,000 lbs of cargo than the steel version that can be used to generate an income, to pay the extra $7,000 to purchase the alloy hull, or to carry an additional 500 US gallons of water and 150 gallons of fuel to extend the cruising range. Option 1 costs $7000 more than steel, because it has better performance and capacity than the steel version. However, there is another option. Most people don't need the extra 5,000 lbs of capacity in a 36' boat. Consider what happens if you adjust the design of the alloy boat so that it performs similar to the steel version. In alloy (option 2): alloy - 5,000 lbs lead - 4,000 lbs rig, engine, tanks, interior, stores, etc, - 5,000 total - 14,000 lbs ballast displacement ratio, 29%. Option 2 has the same capacity to carry fuel, water and stores as the steel version. However, the boat is only .7 the weight of the steel version. You can cut 1000 lbs of ballast. This is going to mean a saving in the amount of lead that must be bought. You could even cut the lead more to 3333 lbs, for a ballast displacement ration of 25 as in the steel version, but as you decrease the displacement it helps to increased the ballast displacement ration to maintain stability. You can reduce the mast and rigging to about .7 the size of the steel version and still get similar performance to the steel version. This is a large enough difference that you can likely go down a wire size and to a smaller and shorter mast section, which can add up to a huge saving. Buying winches .7 the size can make another huge difference in price. You can reduce the engine to about .7 the size of the steel version and still get similar performance. There can be quite a difference in price between a 15HP and a 20HP engine. These savings in lead, rig size and engine size can then be used to pay for the $7,000 price difference between the steel and alloy hulls. You can also apply similar reductions (with care) to other gear on the boat for further savings. The smaller rig and sails will be easier to handle for cruising. Offsetting this, lower displacement in option 2 will have a quicker motion in a seaway. The smaller engine in option 2 will likely get better fuel economy than the bigger engine in the steel version, thus the alloy boat will likely have a greater range under power for the same size tanks. The lighter hull will likely be move responsive to the rudder under sail and power, likely making it better handling under sail and easier to maneuver around the docks. As a bonus, the additional weight savings in the rig and engine in option 2 allow you to carry extra fuel, water and stores than the steel version. It may only be a few hundred pounds, but that is still an extra 4-5 jerry cans. My purpose in this demonstration is simply to show that it can be a mistake to assume that it is cheaper to build a boat in steel than alloy. The cost of the material to build the hull is only part of the total cost, and building in a heavier material adds costs elsewhere to the boat. There is no free lunch. Alloy boats that perform better than steel cost more than steel. Alloy boats that perform like steel cost about the same as steel. By attention to design, building in steel and alloy can deliver comparable boats at a comparable price. When most people compare alloy to steel, they are comparing apples to oranges - a high performance alloy boat to a low performance steel boat. Of course there is a difference in price. However, if you use alloy to build a boat that is similar in performance to steel, your should find that your total cost is comparable to steel. I hope that the above example will prove instructive to some that are considering building a boat. Research the topic for yourself and see what other builders and designers are saying. You might find that the best material for your next boat will be alloy. In either case, steel and alloy are both fine boat building materials. I own a steel boat, mostly because I was able to buy the boat used for a low price. Steel boats do not always have a great resale value, which is why they are a great boat to buy used. I sold a 26' FG boat, bought my 39' steel boat, and put money in my pocket to go cruising. However, if I was going to build a new boat, I would go with alloy. If for no other reason than if my plans changed, and I wanted to sell the boat, the alloy boat would likely have a better resale value. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones www.origamimagic.com ps: Alloy welds are not as strong comparatively as steel welds. This is because the heat of welding alloy removes some of the temper, reducing the strength of the weld to the strength of aluminum. Something similar happens in steel, where the heat of welding reduces the strength of the surrounding steel, but the effect is not as great. However, it is a mistake to say that because the welds are not 100% strength, this makes alloy weak. The strength of alloy welds is accounted for in the design of an alloy boat. Stiffening members and backing bars are used on the inside to bring the effective weld strength of alloy up to 100% strength. For example: a doubler on the inside of a butt weld brings the weld to 120% strength. Alloy boats are as strong as steel by design, but much lighter. Pound for pound, alloy is twice as strong as steel. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2141|2106|2003-09-17 11:09:08|metak20032000|wheel weights|In response to Phillip Allen's post: Do you use an aluminum mixing bowl to melt the lead weights in? Also is there any advantage to using epoxy to fill the voids with?|
2142|2142|2003-09-17 20:51:04|Phil S.|Material Choice|Hey Guys: I thought I might chime in on the materials debate. First off any of us that are/have/ will build our own boat will do a heck of allot of research before we pick up a tool. So I believe that the choice will be a personal one. Misinformation may be out there, so "Builder beware" as it were. My personal choice of materials is steel. I have many ready sources of scrap or "2nd use" steel. Much of the steel is in pristine condition, unused and uncut. It is returned to the local steel distributor as "Purchasing Over Run Returns" I am sure there are many places in the country with such a Distributor/Scrap Dealer. Very rarely do they have aluminum in the grade required to build a boat. I also have a large pool of experienced ASME Code certified welders where I work. Not to mention a ready supply of scrap steel, cutting tools... Will, when I am done with my dream boat, take off for the South Pacific? Not likely. I have to many family obligations. I will probably be thrilled to just take off with my kids and grand kids and explore the great lakes, finger lakes, Erie Canal and the Thousand Island. I have been on this board for almost a year I believe. I have Brent's book just about memorized and I truly believe his over laying philosophy of "Keep It Simple Stupid". To build most of the boat yourself, follow this religiously. I have tackled several large projects, using outside labor gets extremely expensive something like 70% of almost any construction project, materials 30%. My recommendation, build in steel, build it yourself, relax and enjoy the process. Just my opinion. Phil Sacchitella PS. Keep in mind, Michael Kasten may make some really cool aluminum designs, but how many have been built by amateurs in their back yard? Not many I'll bet.|
2143|2138|2003-09-17 23:03:41|brentswain38|Re: "Material choices for idiots" - the K.I.S.S. approach|It costs a lot more to build inside than outside. Performance is not directly porportional to the weight of the material.One of my 36 footers beat a C&C35 to windward in 12 knots of wind, another repeatedly left a 35 ft Beneteau far behind while heavily loaded cruising Mexico. The example of an aluminium boat taking 99 days to get home from Tonga compared to my 57 days is another example. One 36 footer sailed 2200 miles across the atlantic in 14 days, and another covered 1006 miles beating to windward in 6 days.You wouldn't make much better time that those in any loaded cruising boat , not enough to compensate for the extra expense.A boat which is half the weight doesn't sail twice as fast, only marginally faster at best. Lighter boats have more trouble punching through a head sea.I can reef the main in under a minute and roller furling makes headsail handling a non issue. The saying that the hull is a small part of the expense assumes you buy all your gear new. For a good scrounger it's a major part of the total. My steel cost $3500 and I was sailing for $6,000, the steel representing more than half the cost of the boat. Add several thousand to the price of the metal and you have a huge difference. The reason is because a much larger part of the total cost of a metal boat is metal. The leftovers from your hull make anchors, woodstove, fittinmgs,etc.In a fibreglass boat these are bought in the marine store along with fasteners, bedding , etc, usually at great expense. With the weight of stores and equipment needed on an offshore cruising boat it's a bit naive to believe it can be kept as light as a full time marina resident which isn't lived aboard . The 36 floats on it's lines empty at under 18,000 lbs. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Let's consider a theoretical 36 footer, an approximation of the 36 footer built locally based on Brent's designs. > > From the local builder: > > steel - $39,000 > alloy - $46,000 > > difference - $7,000 > > I don't have the weights for Brent's boat. The following are my approximations for the purposes of demonstration only. > > In steel: > > steel - 10,000 lbs > lead - 5,000 lbs > rig, engine, tanks, interior, stores, etc, - 5,000 lbs > total - 20,000 lbs > ballast displacement ratio, 25%. > > In alloy (option 1): > > alloy - 5,000 lbs > lead - 5,000 lbs > rig, engine, tanks, interior, stores, etc, - 5,000 lbs > total - 15,000 lbs > ballast displacement ratio, 33%. > > Option 1, build the boat in alloy, without changing anything else. The boat will be stiffer, probably better capsize resistance, and likely faster under sail and power. The boat will be able to carry an additional 5,000 lbs of cargo than the steel version that can be used to generate an income, to pay the extra $7,000 to purchase the alloy hull, or to carry an additional 500 US gallons of water and 150 gallons of fuel to extend the cruising range. > > Option 1 costs $7000 more than steel, because it has better performance and capacity than the steel version. > > However, there is another option. Most people don't need the extra 5,000 lbs of capacity in a 36' boat. Consider what happens if you adjust the design of the alloy boat so that it performs similar to the steel version. > > In alloy (option 2): > > alloy - 5,000 lbs > lead - 4,000 lbs > rig, engine, tanks, interior, stores, etc, - 5,000 > total - 14,000 lbs > ballast displacement ratio, 29%. > > Option 2 has the same capacity to carry fuel, water and stores as the steel version. However, the boat is only .7 the weight of the steel version. > > You can cut 1000 lbs of ballast. This is going to mean a saving in the amount of lead that must be bought. You could even cut the lead more to 3333 lbs, for a ballast displacement ration of 25 as in the steel version, but as you decrease the displacement it helps to increased the ballast displacement ration to maintain stability. > > You can reduce the mast and rigging to about .7 the size of the steel version and still get similar performance to the steel version. This is a large enough difference that you can likely go down a wire size and to a smaller and shorter mast section, which can add up to a huge saving. Buying winches .7 the size can make another huge difference in price. > > You can reduce the engine to about .7 the size of the steel version and still get similar performance. There can be quite a difference in price between a 15HP and a 20HP engine. > > These savings in lead, rig size and engine size can then be used to pay for the $7,000 price difference between the steel and alloy hulls. You can also apply similar reductions (with care) to other gear on the boat for further savings. > > The smaller rig and sails will be easier to handle for cruising. Offsetting this, lower displacement in option 2 will have a quicker motion in a seaway. The smaller engine in option 2 will likely get better fuel economy than the bigger engine in the steel version, thus the alloy boat will likely have a greater range under power for the same size tanks. The lighter hull will likely be move responsive to the rudder under sail and power, likely making it better handling under sail and easier to maneuver around the docks. > > As a bonus, the additional weight savings in the rig and engine in option 2 allow you to carry extra fuel, water and stores than the steel version. It may only be a few hundred pounds, but that is still an extra 4-5 jerry cans. > > My purpose in this demonstration is simply to show that it can be a mistake to assume that it is cheaper to build a boat in steel than alloy. The cost of the material to build the hull is only part of the total cost, and building in a heavier material adds costs elsewhere to the boat. > > There is no free lunch. Alloy boats that perform better than steel cost more than steel. Alloy boats that perform like steel cost about the same as steel. By attention to design, building in steel and alloy can deliver comparable boats at a comparable price. > > When most people compare alloy to steel, they are comparing apples to oranges - a high performance alloy boat to a low performance steel boat. Of course there is a difference in price. However, if you use alloy to build a boat that is similar in performance to steel, your should find that your total cost is comparable to steel. > > I hope that the above example will prove instructive to some that are considering building a boat. Research the topic for yourself and see what other builders and designers are saying. You might find that the best material for your next boat will be alloy. > > In either case, steel and alloy are both fine boat building materials. I own a steel boat, mostly because I was able to buy the boat used for a low price. Steel boats do not always have a great resale value, which is why they are a great boat to buy used. I sold a 26' FG boat, bought my 39' steel boat, and put money in my pocket to go cruising. > > However, if I was going to build a new boat, I would go with alloy. If for no other reason than if my plans changed, and I wanted to sell the boat, the alloy boat would likely have a better resale value. > > > greg elliott > yacht Lazy Bones > www.origamimagic.com > > ps: Alloy welds are not as strong comparatively as steel welds. This is because the heat of welding alloy removes some of the temper, reducing the strength of the weld to the strength of aluminum. Something similar happens in steel, where the heat of welding reduces the strength of the surrounding steel, but the effect is not as great. > > However, it is a mistake to say that because the welds are not 100% strength, this makes alloy weak. The strength of alloy welds is accounted for in the design of an alloy boat. Stiffening members and backing bars are used on the inside to bring the effective weld strength of alloy up to 100% strength. For example: a doubler on the inside of a butt weld brings the weld to 120% strength. Alloy boats are as strong as steel by design, but much lighter. Pound for pound, alloy is twice as strong as steel. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2144|2106|2003-09-17 23:18:32|brentswain38|Re: wheel weights|Those reject propane cylindres you see in scrapyards make a great cauldron for melting lead in . An aluminium container might melt itself. Epoxy filling the voids is no real advantage , just weld a piece of plate over the lead to seal out any air. Where there is no oxygen there is no oxidation. It takes very little corrosion to use up the oxygen in voids .If you weld the cap on airtight while the lead is still hot, there won't be any moisture either. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "metak20032000" wrote: > In response to Phillip Allen's post: Do you use an aluminum mixing > bowl to melt the > lead weights in? Also is there any advantage to using epoxy to fill > the voids with? |
2145|2106|2003-09-18 03:56:32|sae140|Re: wheel weights|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Those reject propane cylindres you see in scrapyards make a great > cauldron for melting lead in. What a great pity wheel weights can't be used 'as is', without melting 'em down .... I've got a couple of giant (6ft tall) unwanted propane cylinders I keep looking at and wondering whether they'd make keel torpedo bulbs - plausible, or crazy ? CP|
2146|2106|2003-09-18 04:43:49|Phillip Allen|Re: wheel weights|I used one of those propane cookers sold at Sam's Club as a deep-fat-fryer. The Mixing bowl is one of those Wal-Mart sells for such things as bread making...they are thin stainless steel. Remember when choosing the vessel you will melt the lead in that it will be heavy when full and choose size accordingly. Mine held about sixty pounds at the level I allowed it to reach. I do heavy work for a living and have a good idea how much weight I can control...this is important! Use lighter weights than your maximum to account for fatigue (a sack of portland cement weighs 94 pounds). I even did a practice carry and pour to see any dangerous flaws in my technique. I live by myself and there's no one to pull my chips outa the fire if I make a mistake in judgment. I don't know if pouring several thousand pounds makes a great difference in approach. I wanted clean melt because I was adding to the alloy in order to make bullet metal (for my hobby) and wanted a fairly large supply for consistency�s sake...a couple hundred pounds and now I won't have to repeat the process for years...unless I actually build that boat! As to filling voids...I don't know. I read Brent's comment and it makes a lotta sense to me. The only thing I wonder about is removable ballast...but I'll burn that bridge when I get to it. Phillip Allen --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2147|2106|2003-09-18 22:45:06|brentswain38|Re: wheel weights|Propane tanks are too thin for keels Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Those reject propane cylindres you see in scrapyards make a great > > cauldron for melting lead in. > > What a great pity wheel weights can't be used 'as is', without > melting 'em down .... > > I've got a couple of giant (6ft tall) unwanted propane cylinders I > keep looking at and wondering whether they'd make keel torpedo bulbs - > plausible, or crazy ? CP |
2148|2106|2003-09-18 22:48:13|brentswain38|Re: wheel weights|The french Joshua type yacts used removable ballast and the keels rusted out from the insides quite quickly. You have to seal out any oxygen to prevent corrosion. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Phillip Allen wrote: > > > > I used one of those propane cookers sold at Sam's Club as a deep- fat-fryer. The Mixing bowl is one of those Wal-Mart sells for such things as bread making...they are thin stainless steel. Remember when choosing the vessel you will melt the lead in that it will be heavy when full and choose size accordingly. Mine held about sixty pounds at the level I allowed it to reach. I do heavy work for a living and have a good idea how much weight I can control...this is important! Use lighter weights than your maximum to account for fatigue (a sack of portland cement weighs 94 pounds). I even did a practice carry and pour to see any dangerous flaws in my technique. I live by myself and there's no one to pull my chips outa the fire if I make a mistake in judgment. I don't know if pouring several thousand pounds makes a great difference in approach. I wanted clean melt because I was adding to the alloy in order to make bullet metal (for my hobby) and wanted a fairly large supply for consistency's > sake...a couple hundred pounds and now I won't have to repeat the process for years...unless I actually build that boat! As to filling voids...I don't know. I read Brent's comment and it makes a lotta sense to me. The only thing I wonder about is removable ballast...but I'll burn that bridge when I get to it. > > Phillip Allen > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2149|2149|2003-09-19 00:11:35|berzerker76|removable ballast|Would you not be able to paint the inside of the keel and seal the steel in such a way that it will not sweat? It is not like you will be removing the ballast daily so I think scratching a nice thick paint job would not be much of an issue especially with lead pigs. Of course I might be totally off base here and talking out my ass but hey, never know till ya try. Russyl Neumann|
2150|2149|2003-09-19 15:07:48|richytill|Re: removable ballast|When I think about removable ballast I think about water in the water tanks above the ballast tanks. The lead can stay sealed tight and secure below where it belongs. rt (My Island) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "berzerker76" wrote: > Would you not be able to paint the inside of the keel and seal the > steel in such a way that it will not sweat? It is not like you will > be removing the ballast daily so I think scratching a nice thick > paint job would not be much of an issue especially with lead pigs. > > Of course I might be totally off base here and talking out my ass but > hey, never know till ya try. > > Russyl Neumann |
2151|2151|2003-09-19 15:56:15|Gary H. Lucas|Has this group died?|Haven't seen any discusion here for a while. Gary H. Lucas|
2152|2152|2003-09-20 13:19:48|Aaron Edelman|Propane bottles|Hi, In reference to using propane bottles as melting pots. Questions: How do you cut them open, without blowing yourself up. How do you empty the propane 100 %? What do you use to cut? Torch or angle grinder with cutting blade? Can you cut off the "bottom", invert the bottle, and use the valve assembly as a spigot, (will it still turn on and off, when the lead is heated to melting temp); and then let it pour into a trough, (similar to the chute at the tail end of a Cement truck), to direct the molten lead to the keel-form. Thank you, Aaron _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus|
2153|2153|2003-09-20 13:26:21|Aaron Edelman|How to test welds|HI All, Can you tell me how to test the weld seams on a homebuilt steel boat, to assure integrity of the weld, and of course for "water tightness". 1.) How to test it during construction? 2.) How to test and older steel boat, primed and painted? Thanks Aaron _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus|
2154|2154|2003-09-20 13:45:20|John Jones|Re: Digest Number 586|No, It's not dead...... just tired of the same questions and comments aired months or years ago; if only they would look back through the previous posts thier questions would likely be answered. I look in daily, I just sometimes find it hard to find my password to satisfy those "yahoo's" to get in. John ---------- >From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Digest Number 586 >Date: Sat, Sep 20, 2003, 9:38 > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > There are 2 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: removable ballast > From: "richytill" > 2. Has this group died? > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 19:07:42 -0000 > From: "richytill" > Subject: Re: removable ballast > > When I think about removable ballast I think about water in the water > tanks above the ballast tanks. The lead can stay sealed tight and > secure below where it belongs. rt (My Island) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "berzerker76" > wrote: >> Would you not be able to paint the inside of the keel and seal the >> steel in such a way that it will not sweat? It is not like you will >> be removing the ballast daily so I think scratching a nice thick >> paint job would not be much of an issue especially with lead pigs. >> >> Of course I might be totally off base here and talking out my ass > but >> hey, never know till ya try. >> >> Russyl Neumann > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:55:57 -0400 > From: "Gary H. Lucas" > Subject: Has this group died? > > Haven't seen any discusion here for a while. > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > |
2155|2152|2003-09-20 18:18:44|jim dorey|Re: Propane bottles|i'd think unscrewing the spigot and turning it upside down would do the job, since it's heavier than air. Aaron Edelman wrote: > Hi, > > In reference to using propane bottles as melting pots. > > Questions: > > How do you cut them open, without blowing yourself up. How do you > empty the > propane 100 %? > > What do you use to cut? Torch or angle grinder with cutting blade? > > Can you cut off the "bottom", invert the bottle, and use the valve > assembly > as a spigot, (will it still turn on and off, when the lead is heated to > melting temp); and then let it pour into a trough, (similar to the > chute at > the tail end of a Cement truck), to direct the molten lead to the > keel-form. > > Thank you, > > Aaron -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2156|2153|2003-09-20 18:19:44|jim dorey|Re: How to test welds|hit the welds with a hammer, the good ones should ring differently, or thud differently. Aaron Edelman wrote: > HI All, > > Can you tell me how to test the weld seams on a homebuilt steel boat, to > assure integrity of the weld, and of course for "water tightness". > > 1.) How to test it during construction? > > 2.) How to test and older steel boat, primed and painted? > > Thanks > > Aaron -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2157|2152|2003-09-20 21:44:19|Jack Gardiner|Re: Propane bottles|fill it with water and dump it out Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: jim dorey To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane bottles i'd think unscrewing the spigot and turning it upside down would do the job, since it's heavier than air. Aaron Edelman wrote: > Hi, > > In reference to using propane bottles as melting pots. > > Questions: > > How do you cut them open, without blowing yourself up. How do you > empty the > propane 100 %? > > What do you use to cut? Torch or angle grinder with cutting blade? > > Can you cut off the "bottom", invert the bottle, and use the valve > assembly > as a spigot, (will it still turn on and off, when the lead is heated to > melting temp); and then let it pour into a trough, (similar to the > chute at > the tail end of a Cement truck), to direct the molten lead to the > keel-form. > > Thank you, > > Aaron -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2158|2158|2003-09-20 21:54:25|gjm123smau|gas bottles|The propane bottles be careful.......remove the tap and fill with water to purge all the gas out ........|
2159|2158|2003-09-20 22:15:55|brentswain38|Re: gas bottles|You'd want at least 1 1/2 inch opening all the way to the keel. Weld 1 1/2 inch elbows and pipe all the way to the keel and put a 1 1/2 inch gate valve in the pipe to control the lead. When the lead is all melted, you have to heat the pipe and gate valve to the melting point of lead before opening the gate valve with a wet rag, or the lead will freeze solid when it hits the cold pipe. The original propane valve will be far too small an opening to let enough lead through. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gjm123smau" wrote: > The propane bottles be careful.......remove the tap and fill with > water to purge all the gas out ........ |
2160|2152|2003-09-21 00:43:45|keith green|Re: Propane bottles|Fill the thing with water and leave the valve open while you cut it with a zip-disk. Drill a vent hole if you're cutting the bottom off. If you have a recipro-saw, that should work as well, though getting the cut started will be harder. The gas will be purged if you dump the water out, though the stink will remain. God help you if you get that stuff on your clothes and in the house. The wife ragged on me for weeks after that one. Worse than a skunk I'd say. Lasts longer. keith. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Edelman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Propane bottles Hi, In reference to using propane bottles as melting pots. Questions: How do you cut them open, without blowing yourself up. How do you empty the propane 100 %? What do you use to cut? Torch or angle grinder with cutting blade? Can you cut off the "bottom", invert the bottle, and use the valve assembly as a spigot, (will it still turn on and off, when the lead is heated to melting temp); and then let it pour into a trough, (similar to the chute at the tail end of a Cement truck), to direct the molten lead to the keel-form. Thank you, Aaron _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2161|2153|2003-09-21 12:07:16|lon wells|Re: How to test welds|Weld testing depends on what the test budget is and how critical the weld. X-ray the US Navy will x-ray critical welds on ships. Many bridge welds are x-rayed. Nuclear welds are x-rayed. Ultra sonic testing another excellent testing method is Ultra sonic testing the cost is less than x-ray. Magnetic particle testing is common for testing weld cracks and plate cracks. But for all practical purposes visual testing will work on a steel pleasure craft and work boats. Look the weld over closely. Generally a good looking weld is a good weld Check for undercut this will appear along the edge of the weld. Boats are subject to vibrations and the undercut weld has a greater chance of cracking. If you can catch you finger nail on the weld edge there is under cut. Weld porosity is where there are many small holes in the weld. This is generally from shielding gas problems or surface contamination of the weld joint. The weld surface should be smooth and full showing good fusion of the joint. Welds having roll over and fall backs are a indication of operator error with heat range and travel speed. There are many good sources for visual testing of welds. Search around the net and you will find some, Good Luck Lon --- Aaron Edelman wrote: > HI All, > > Can you tell me how to test the weld seams on a > homebuilt steel boat, to > assure integrity of the weld, and of course for > "water tightness". > > 1.) How to test it during construction? > > 2.) How to test and older steel boat, primed and > painted? > > Thanks > > Aaron > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com|
2162|2152|2003-09-21 20:14:20|Jack Gardiner|Re: Propane bottles|I would be VERY carefull with power tools where water exits. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: keith green To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Propane bottles Fill the thing with water and leave the valve open while you cut it with a zip-disk. Drill a vent hole if you're cutting the bottom off. If you have a recipro-saw, that should work as well, though getting the cut started will be harder. The gas will be purged if you dump the water out, though the stink will remain. God help you if you get that stuff on your clothes and in the house. The wife ragged on me for weeks after that one. Worse than a skunk I'd say. Lasts longer. keith. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Edelman To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Propane bottles Hi, In reference to using propane bottles as melting pots. Questions: How do you cut them open, without blowing yourself up. How do you empty the propane 100 %? What do you use to cut? Torch or angle grinder with cutting blade? Can you cut off the "bottom", invert the bottle, and use the valve assembly as a spigot, (will it still turn on and off, when the lead is heated to melting temp); and then let it pour into a trough, (similar to the chute at the tail end of a Cement truck), to direct the molten lead to the keel-form. Thank you, Aaron _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2164|2151|2003-09-22 08:32:46|sae140|Re: Has this group died?|Well - I've sent a comlaint off to Yahoo about the spammer - if others do the same maybe we could rid Yahoo of these irritants .... Discussion: well, although I don't ever intend to build a plywood boat again, I've been wondering whether the Origami method could be used to build plywood boats successfully (and quickly) - any thoughts ? Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Haven't seen any discusion here for a while. > > Gary H. Lucas |
2165|2165|2003-09-22 09:52:10|Bert|testing welds...|Lon Wells wrote: Look the weld over closely. Generally a good looking weld is a good weld Check for undercut this will appear along the edge of the weld. Boats are subject to vibrations and the undercut weld has a greater chance of cracking. If you can catch you finger nail on the weld edge there is under cut. I'm sometimes guilty of undercutting when I stick weld... What causes this? Solution? Bert Eggers....Saginaw, Mi|
2166|2151|2003-09-22 13:23:23|brentswain38|Re: Has this group died?|Origami methods can be used for any sheet material, although the ends of a chine may put quite a stress on plywood, It would be wise to saturate the area with epoxies after pulling it together and laminating several layers of veneer over the area . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > Well - I've sent a comlaint off to Yahoo about the spammer - if > others do the same maybe we could rid Yahoo of these irritants .... > > Discussion: > well, although I don't ever intend to build a plywood boat again, > I've been wondering whether the Origami method could be used to build > plywood boats successfully (and quickly) - any thoughts ? > > Colin > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" > wrote: > > Haven't seen any discusion here for a while. > > > > Gary H. Lucas |
2167|2151|2003-09-22 16:54:21|jim dorey|Re: Has this group died?|if you soak it in lots of hot water you might get it to bend right, but it's likely that laminations would be best, but likely it'll break easily, so bend slow and keep it saturated. sae140 wrote: > > Well - I've sent a comlaint off to Yahoo about the spammer - if > others do the same maybe we could rid Yahoo of these irritants .... > > Discussion: > well, although I don't ever intend to build a plywood boat again, > I've been wondering whether the Origami method could be used to build > plywood boats successfully (and quickly) - any thoughts ? > > Colin -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2168|2151|2003-09-22 19:03:26|mynode|Alternate materials|I've been thinking about the practicality of building a small origami boat out of some sort of plastic sheet material like the polyethylene they make truck bedliners out of. In spite of the elasticity of the material, with a stout sheer clamp and perhaps a few stringers and buikheads, it might work well in a small size. It would certainly be one tough boat. The joints could be joined using the plastic welding technique and the sheet could be heated to make it easier to form. Just a thought. - Mark|
2169|2169|2003-09-23 00:08:29|crzylarry|Isabel Photo Gallery|Here are some photos of my first hurricane. http://hurricaneisabel.tk|
2170|2165|2003-09-23 02:47:47|sae140|Re: testing welds...|> I'm sometimes guilty of undercutting when I stick weld... What causes this? > Solution? Too much current, so turn the wick down a little. If for some reason you can't reduce the current, try weaving the electrode. Colin|
2171|2153|2003-09-23 05:05:26|edward_stoneuk|Re: How to test welds|Aaron My welding supplies dealer sells dye penetrant for testing welds. The red dye penetrant is sprayed on one side and a white spray used on the other. If there are any cracks the red dye shows against the white. This shows cracks that are invisible to normal eye inspection. In an older boat any cracks would, I think show as rust bleeds. Regards, Ted|
2172|2153|2003-09-23 06:22:24|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: How to test welds|Ted & Aaron, There is a basic treatment of the dye-penetrant process on the MBS site --- access via the search function. This process can detect and make evident things which are linked to the weld surface, not anything which is sealed by metal or very tight slag. In effect, the cleaned area of interest is sprayed with a kerosene based dye (usually red), time passes, excess dye is wiped off, and then a developer (a chalk-type spray) is applied to the same area. The chalk coat leaches out any red dye material from whence it was able to penetrate (ie. cracks or porosity pores). The result is evident as a reddish fine line (cracks) or red dots (porosity) in the generally white background. The MBS site also has some posts relevant to the visual inspection of welds. Terry -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Tuesday, 23 September 2003 18:35 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: How to test welds Aaron My welding supplies dealer sells dye penetrant for testing welds. The red dye penetrant is sprayed on one side and a white spray used on the other. If there are any cracks the red dye shows against the white. This shows cracks that are invisible to normal eye inspection. In an older boat any cracks would, I think show as rust bleeds. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/|
2174|2106|2003-09-23 13:36:06|nadim|Re: wheel weights|On Thursday 18 September 2003 09:56, sae140 wrote: > I've got a couple of giant (6ft tall) unwanted propane cylinders I > keep looking at and wondering whether they'd make keel torpedo bulbs - > plausible, or crazy ? CP Not crazy, might be a bit long though. The exit part of the bulbe should not be flat! look at any U-boat for shape idea. Another important point is to be sure your bulb head will NOT grab any line floatting around. N. PS. Great links in your previous mail Collins.|
2175|2165|2003-09-23 17:54:44|fmichael graham|Re: testing welds...|Re: Undercutting. Generally, the only harm from undercutting is poor appearance. However (there's that ominous word again!), undercutting may also impair weld strength, particularly when the weld is loaded in tension or subjected to fatigue. To minimize undercut: 1) reduce current, travel speed, or electrode size until the weld puddle is manageable. 2) Change electrode angle so the arc force holds the metal in the corners. use a uniform travel speed and avoid excessive weaving. When welding process used is SMAW("stick"), travel speed and electrode angle are usually the culprits. With GMAW("wire feed"), wire speed and shielding gas pressure should be given special attention. "Practise makes perfect". Mike Bert wrote: Lon Wells wrote: Look the weld over closely. Generally a good looking weld is a good weld Check for undercut this will appear along the edge of the weld. Boats are subject to vibrations and the undercut weld has a greater chance of cracking. If you can catch you finger nail on the weld edge there is under cut. I'm sometimes guilty of undercutting when I stick weld... What causes this? Solution? Bert Eggers....Saginaw, Mi To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2176|2151|2003-09-23 17:55:30|jim dorey|Re: Alternate materials|if you made an origami boat mould and formed the plastic it might be better, no joints at all. practical size may be anything up to 40 feet depending on how thick and well braced it is. with a mould you could pop a boat a week out. mynode wrote: > I've been thinking about the practicality of building a small origami > boat out of some sort of plastic sheet material like the polyethylene > they make truck bedliners out of. In spite of the elasticity of the > material, with a stout sheer clamp and perhaps a few stringers and > buikheads, it might work well in a small size. It would certainly be > one tough boat. The joints could be joined using the plastic welding > technique and the sheet could be heated to make it easier to form. > > Just a thought. > > - Mark -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2177|2151|2003-09-23 21:58:37|brentswain38|Re: Alternate materials|Despite the claims of kevlar , carbon fibre and other high tech materials, a guy who has canoed all the arctic rivers running out of Canada told me that the toughest canoe he ever used was a moulded polypropylene one made by Coleman which sells for around $100 CDN It was also the lightest. I've been experimenting with moulding and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a dinghy or kayak yet. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > if you made an origami boat mould and formed the plastic it might be > better, no joints at all. practical size may be anything up to 40 feet > depending on how thick and well braced it is. with a mould you could > pop a boat a week out. > > mynode wrote: > > > I've been thinking about the practicality of building a small origami > > boat out of some sort of plastic sheet material like the polyethylene > > they make truck bedliners out of. In spite of the elasticity of the > > material, with a stout sheer clamp and perhaps a few stringers and > > buikheads, it might work well in a small size. It would certainly be > > one tough boat. The joints could be joined using the plastic welding > > technique and the sheet could be heated to make it easier to form. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > - Mark > > > -- > http://www.skaar.101main.net > http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ > http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? > moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com > DOM and proud!!! |
2178|2151|2003-09-23 22:32:06|keith green|Re: Alternate materials|You weld it with one of those heat guns? How's the elasticity after you do that? I've often wanted to try it. Making a little kayak for the kids might be worthwhile. Would the origami design programs work for plastic as well? keith Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 6:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate materials Despite the claims of kevlar , carbon fibre and other high tech materials, a guy who has canoed all the arctic rivers running out of Canada told me that the toughest canoe he ever used was a moulded polypropylene one made by Coleman which sells for around $100 CDN It was also the lightest. I've been experimenting with moulding and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a dinghy or kayak yet. Brent Swain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2179|2151|2003-09-24 00:29:03|jim dorey|Re: Alternate materials|i think maybe a welding type glue would be better, chemically bond the edges. keith green wrote: > You weld it with one of those heat guns? How's the elasticity > after you do that? I've often wanted to try it. Making a little kayak > for the kids might be worthwhile. Would the origami design programs > work for plastic as well? > > > keith > > Vancouver -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2180|2151|2003-09-24 12:51:54|Don Taylor|Re: Alternate materials|Is there a way to get paint to stick to this stuff? Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: I've been experimenting with moulding > and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on > beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective > and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a > dinghy or kayak yet. |
2181|2181|2003-09-24 13:36:26|sae140|car tyres|I reckon there's a Nobel Prize waiting for the person who can find a use for used car tyres - mountains of which are developing in all countries. As vulcanised rubber is virtually indestructible in the marine environment, it seems to me it would be an ideal material for the outer skin of a hull - suitably supported of course. But - how to make it into sheets, and how to join the stuff ? - sounds like a Ph.D. project for somebody ....|
2182|2181|2003-09-24 13:38:23|Joseph Smith|Re: car tyres|Have a friend who knows how to build a house with them...|
2183|2181|2003-09-24 13:49:25|Michael Casling|Re: car tyres|They make ramps out of them. You use them to drive your car up to get more clearance underneath, or you drive one wheel of your tandem axel trailer up to change the other wheel. It is shreaded and mixed with bark to make footings for arenas and race tracks for horses. They make mats for your horse stalls and stock trailer. The metal has to be removed and that has posed problems. They have used them in the US as retaining walls for roads and the metal has caught on fire and has smoldered for years in one place. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: sae140 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] car tyres I reckon there's a Nobel Prize waiting for the person who can find a use for used car tyres - mountains of which are developing in all countries. As vulcanised rubber is virtually indestructible in the marine environment, it seems to me it would be an ideal material for the outer skin of a hull - suitably supported of course. But - how to make it into sheets, and how to join the stuff ? - sounds like a Ph.D. project for somebody .... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2184|2151|2003-09-24 15:26:22|Phil S.|Re: Alternate materials|I think Brent should be on that Junk yard show that is on cable. He think he could figure out a way to make anything from a pile of junk. Phil|
2185|2181|2003-09-24 20:09:48|...|Re: car tyres|Joseph Smith wrote Have a friend who knows how to build a house with them... What happens when he gets a puncture? or do you call it a flat tyre? The house must smell of rubber. Geoff|
2186|2151|2003-09-24 21:54:35|brentswain38|Re: Alternate materials|Nothing sticks to poly. Just choose a colour of material you can live with Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Taylor" wrote: > Is there a way to get paint to stick to this stuff? > > Don. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > I've been experimenting with moulding > > and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on > > beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective > > and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a > > dinghy or kayak yet. |
2187|2151|2003-09-24 21:58:34|brentswain38|Re: Alternate materials|There is no glue which would work on poly. Welding it with a heat gun or torch is the only way.You have to have both surfaces in the molten state , then press them together and hold them together while the plastic cools. Then they make an extremely strong bond. It would work well doing a kayak using the origami method. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "keith green" wrote: > You weld it with one of those heat guns? How's the elasticity after you do that? I've often wanted to try it. Making a little kayak for the kids might be worthwhile. Would the origami design programs work for plastic as well? > > keith > Vancouver > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 6:58 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate materials > > > Despite the claims of kevlar , carbon fibre and other high tech > materials, a guy who has canoed all the arctic rivers running out of > Canada told me that the toughest canoe he ever used was a moulded > polypropylene one made by Coleman which sells for around $100 CDN > It was also the lightest. I've been experimenting with moulding > and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on > beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective > and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a > dinghy or kayak yet. > Brent Swain > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2188|2151|2003-09-25 03:45:12|mynode|Re: Alternate materials|These tough plastics are often bolted or rivited through large washers. Similar methods might be applicable to boat construction as well. Left and right half hulls might be sealed with a sealant and then clamped between a metal keel and keelson which would then be rivited or bolted through. - Mark K --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > There is no glue which would work on poly. Welding it with a heat > gun or torch is the only way.You have to have both surfaces in the > molten state , then press them together and hold them together while > the plastic cools. Then they make an extremely strong bond. It would > work well doing a kayak using the origami method. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "keith green" wrote: > > You weld it with one of those heat guns? How's the > elasticity after you do that? I've often wanted to try it. Making a > little kayak for the kids might be worthwhile. Would the origami > design programs work for plastic as well? > > > > > > keith > > > > Vancouver > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 6:58 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate materials > > > > > > Despite the claims of kevlar , carbon fibre and other high tech > > materials, a guy who has canoed all the arctic rivers running > out of > > Canada told me that the toughest canoe he ever used was a > moulded > > polypropylene one made by Coleman which sells for around $100 > CDN > > It was also the lightest. I've been experimenting with > moulding > > and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up > on > > beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very > effective > > and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried > a > > dinghy or kayak yet. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2189|2181|2003-09-25 08:02:27|Joseph Smith|Re: car tyres|The house is lined with regular building material both inside and out. The tires make up the inner walls and offer superior insulation both to the elements and noise. It is an alternative building method taught by some folks in Maine. I do not know the particulars of the construction but if you are serioulsy interested in what one can do with old tires I would be glad to find out the name of the people who teach this method.|
2190|2190|2003-09-25 08:21:21|RICHARD KOKEMOOR|Re: alternate materials|Sheet plastic molded around a minimal framework of aluminum is used by Coleman for canoes. The limitation is that wherever the surface is nearly flar, i.e. the bottom of the canoe, the material bows up between supports. Smaller kayaks with more curvature and only small openings make good use of molded plastic. I doubt it would work on larger craft. Rich origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are 6 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: Re: wheel weights From: nadim 2. Re: testing welds... From: fmichael graham 3. Re: Alternate materials From: jim dorey 4. Re: Alternate materials From: "brentswain38" 5. Re: Re: Alternate materials From: "keith green" 6. Re: Re: Alternate materials From: jim dorey ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:41:01 +0200 From: nadim Subject: Re: Re: wheel weights On Thursday 18 September 2003 09:56, sae140 wrote: > I've got a couple of giant (6ft tall) unwanted propane cylinders I > keep looking at and wondering whether they'd make keel torpedo bulbs - > plausible, or crazy ? CP Not crazy, might be a bit long though. The exit part of the bulbe should not be flat! look at any U-boat for shape idea. Another important point is to be sure your bulb head will NOT grab any line floatting around. N. PS. Great links in your previous mail Collins. ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT) From: fmichael graham Subject: Re: testing welds... Re: Undercutting. Generally, the only harm from undercutting is poor appearance. However (there's that ominous word again!), undercutting may also impair weld strength, particularly when the weld is loaded in tension or subjected to fatigue. To minimize undercut: 1) reduce current, travel speed, or electrode size until the weld puddle is manageable. 2) Change electrode angle so the arc force holds the metal in the corners. use a uniform travel speed and avoid excessive weaving. When welding process used is SMAW("stick"), travel speed and electrode angle are usually the culprits. With GMAW("wire feed"), wire speed and shielding gas pressure should be given special attention. "Practise makes perfect". Mike Bert wrote: Lon Wells wrote: Look the weld over closely. Generally a good looking weld is a good weld Check for undercut this will appear along the edge of the weld. Boats are subject to vibrations and the undercut weld has a greater chance of cracking. If you can catch you finger nail on the weld edge there is under cut. I'm sometimes guilty of undercutting when I stick weld... What causes this? Solution? Bert Eggers....Saginaw, Mi To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:55:28 -0300 From: jim dorey Subject: Re: Alternate materials if you made an origami boat mould and formed the plastic it might be better, no joints at all. practical size may be anything up to 40 feet depending on how thick and well braced it is. with a mould you could pop a boat a week out. mynode wrote: > I've been thinking about the practicality of building a small origami > boat out of some sort of plastic sheet material like the polyethylene > they make truck bedliners out of. In spite of the elasticity of the > material, with a stout sheer clamp and perhaps a few stringers and > buikheads, it might work well in a small size. It would certainly be > one tough boat. The joints could be joined using the plastic welding > technique and the sheet could be heated to make it easier to form. > > Just a thought. > > - Mark -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:58:35 -0000 From: "brentswain38" Subject: Re: Alternate materials Despite the claims of kevlar , carbon fibre and other high tech materials, a guy who has canoed all the arctic rivers running out of Canada told me that the toughest canoe he ever used was a moulded polypropylene one made by Coleman which sells for around $100 CDN It was also the lightest. I've been experimenting with moulding and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a dinghy or kayak yet. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > if you made an origami boat mould and formed the plastic it might be > better, no joints at all. practical size may be anything up to 40 feet > depending on how thick and well braced it is. with a mould you could > pop a boat a week out. > > mynode wrote: > > > I've been thinking about the practicality of building a small origami > > boat out of some sort of plastic sheet material like the polyethylene > > they make truck bedliners out of. In spite of the elasticity of the > > material, with a stout sheer clamp and perhaps a few stringers and > > buikheads, it might work well in a small size. It would certainly be > > one tough boat. The joints could be joined using the plastic welding > > technique and the sheet could be heated to make it easier to form. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > - Mark > > > -- > http://www.skaar.101main.net > http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ > http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? > moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com > DOM and proud!!! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:31:51 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Re: Alternate materials You weld it with one of those heat guns? How's the elasticity after you do that? I've often wanted to try it. Making a little kayak for the kids might be worthwhile. Would the origami design programs work for plastic as well? keith Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 6:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate materials Despite the claims of kevlar , carbon fibre and other high tech materials, a guy who has canoed all the arctic rivers running out of Canada told me that the toughest canoe he ever used was a moulded polypropylene one made by Coleman which sells for around $100 CDN It was also the lightest. I've been experimenting with moulding and welding things out of 45 gallon plastic drums which float up on beaches everywhere. So far I've only made swimfins ( Very effective and easy to make ) and other sportiong goods, but haven't tried a dinghy or kayak yet. Brent Swain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:29:01 -0300 From: jim dorey Subject: Re: Re: Alternate materials i think maybe a welding type glue would be better, chemically bond the edges. keith green wrote: > You weld it with one of those heat guns? How's the elasticity > after you do that? I've often wanted to try it. Making a little kayak > for the kids might be worthwhile. Would the origami design programs > work for plastic as well? > > > keith > > Vancouver -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!! ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2191|2151|2003-09-25 12:11:37|edward_stoneuk|Re: Alternate materials|These people make folding boats out of polypropylene sheet: www.porta-bote.com. Polypropylene and polyethylene can be welded with a special hot air gun with a small nozzle. Welding rods of the appropriate plastic are fed through a tube into the hot area. I have seen Leister heat guns used but there must be other makes. Tanks for water etc. can be made this way. Regards, Ted|
2192|2192|2003-09-25 16:37:12|De Clarke|welding poly|Fascinating, Brent -- cutting and welding up useful stuff out of plastic drums -- do tell more! Could you share some details on the welding technique, as in what heat source you use, how hot to get the plastic, do you use a jig of some kind to clamp the molten edges together, how fast do you have to work, is there any curing process etc? I've seen "poly welding kits" for repairing ATV fenders and the like but they looked pretty hokey to me. I have a rotomolded PE hull that I've regarded as "unhackable" except by drilling holes and attaching (poorly anchored in the soft plastic) screws. if I could weld on reinforcing plates, I could do far more creative things w/the hull. have been told by local plastic workers that "you can't do that," so I am really interested in how/what you're doing. de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:|
2193|2181|2003-09-25 17:24:48|jim dorey|Re: car tyres|it's parged on the inside, no stink. ... wrote: > > Joseph Smith wrote > > Have a friend who knows how to build a house with them... > > What happens when he gets a puncture? or do you call it a flat tyre? > The house must smell of rubber. > Geoff -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2194|2181|2003-09-25 17:28:33|jim dorey|Re: car tyres|earthship.com Joseph Smith wrote: > The house is lined with regular building material both inside and > out. The tires make up the inner walls and offer superior insulation > both to the elements and noise. It is an alternative building method > taught by some folks in Maine. I do not know the particulars of the > construction but if you are serioulsy interested in what one can do > with old tires I would be glad to find out the name of the people who > teach this method. -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2195|2151|2003-09-25 18:16:54|keith green|Re: Alternate materials|Steinel is the make of hot-air gun I'm most accustomed to seeing around here. Cool tool to have (though I don't) as there are lot's of attachments for paint stripping, plastic welding, soldering, etc. keith green Vancouver, BC ----- Original Message ----- From: edward_stoneuk To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 9:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate materials These people make folding boats out of polypropylene sheet: www.porta-bote.com. Polypropylene and polyethylene can be welded with a special hot air gun with a small nozzle. Welding rods of the appropriate plastic are fed through a tube into the hot area. I have seen Leister heat guns used but there must be other makes. Tanks for water etc. can be made this way. Regards, Ted Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2196|2151|2003-09-25 21:47:56|brentswain38|Re: Alternate materials|I've been heating an inch of or so of the edges of the plastic until the surface liquifies , then clamping the two liquified surfaces together and keeping them clamped until it cools. I've been using a propane torch but the air gun would be more controlable. The fold boat could easily be made out of this material. Friends who have them as dinghies swear by them. The plastic also makes good blades for dinghy oars and kayak paddles, almost indestructable. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "keith green" wrote: > Steinel is the make of hot-air gun I'm most accustomed to seeing around here. Cool tool to have (though I don't) as there are lot's of attachments for paint stripping, plastic welding, soldering, etc. > > keith green > Vancouver, BC > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: edward_stoneuk > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 9:09 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Alternate materials > > > These people make folding boats out of polypropylene sheet: > www.porta-bote.com. > > Polypropylene and polyethylene can be welded with a special hot air > gun with a small nozzle. Welding rods of the appropriate plastic are > fed through a tube into the hot area. I have seen Leister heat guns > used but there must be other makes. Tanks for water etc. can be made > this way. > > Regards, > Ted > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2197|2197|2003-09-26 07:52:45|...|welding pol|The plastic drums are blow moulded from High density polyelene,as Brent has discovered you can weld this material. The best way to weld HDPE it is to use what is known the hot plate/ hot knife technique,this involves heating a metal plate and placing it between the faces of the plastic parts to be joined,when you see the edges of the plastic melting you withdraw the metal plate and push the two surfaces together and hold them until the material has cooled ,which will take some time as the plastic is a poor conductor of heat. There is no curing process,and the temperature will have to be determined experimentally for the grade of plastic material that the drums are made from. Some drums might be made from cross link material which will not remit. The drum material and similar materials of LDPE/HDPE can be painted, but the surface has to be treated first,one way is to oxidize the surface by using a gas torch with a soft flame. Work the flame over the surfaces to be painted,you will need to see a change in the surface as the flame just melts the surface,allow to cool and apply paint. I have painted the drums brown to use for collecting rain water as I did not wish to have blue drums which do not look right in the garden. The flaming technique is used to prepare the surface for printing on plastic containers which are used for all types of product from oil containers to washing up liquid. The drum material is very high spec material as they have to withstand drop tests when filled, going from memory I think the test is dropping them when full from 8 FT. The problem of making a boat hull from drums is that you would have to join a number together, and the sheets cut from drums will all have a preset radius,and the thickness varies depending on where the material is cut from the drum. The material can be worked with woodworking tools,and can be turned with very sharp tools. Any ideal application would be blades for oars or wearing pads for the underside of Dinghies. If anyone requires more information email me. De, you have do very well to mould a PE boat hull do you have a moulding company? or did you do it at home? What is the size of the hull? I have been designing products using rotomoulding for many years, you have to change the way things are fixed to the mouldings. Geoff Cheshire England De wrote Fascinating, Brent -- cutting and welding up useful stuff out of plastic drums -- do tell more! Could you share some details on the welding technique, as in what heat source you use, how hot to get the plastic, do you use a jig of some kind to clamp the molten edges together, how fast do you have to work, is there any curing process etc? I've seen "poly welding kits" for repairing ATV fenders and the like but they looked pretty hokey to me. I have a rotomolded PE hull that I've regarded as "unhackable" except by drilling holes and attaching (poorly anchored in the soft plastic) screws. if I could weld on reinforcing plates, I could do far more creative things w/the hull. have been told by local plastic workers that "you can't do that," so I am really interested in how/what you're doing. de|
2198|2192|2003-09-26 09:55:27|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: welding poly|I have had a patch stick to the top of one of those red gas tanks, the ones that are really tough and slippery. I used a piece of a thick liquid soap bottle for the patch, and after cleaning everything well and roughing the surfaces up, I used one of those cheap electric glue guns, like the ones used for wood working, and it has stayed stuck for about 3 years. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2200|2200|2003-09-27 16:59:42|...|welding Poly|I hope my post re welding Poly has not sent you all to sleep, it has gone very quiet since then. Are you all busy welding Ploy drums together? I don't want to be responsible for stopping all discussions, maybe we will see the results of lots of poly drum boat building. Geoff Cheshire England|
2201|2151|2003-09-27 18:10:59|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Has this group died?|Origami Magic is committed to the growth of the origami concept. To this end we continue to innovate with new designs, new patterns, new techniques and new materials. We have made fantastic advances over the years in 3-D computer modeling of origami hulls, to the point where we can take just about any sailboat design and reliably create a very accurate origami pattern for that boat. There are lots of great boat designs in the world from which to create an origami pattern, to suit the different requirements of different owners. We have added structural support for twin keels directly into the skin of the hull by introducing a strengthening chine at the keel attachment. We have removed the chine-end knuckle from origami construction. Our patterns simply do not have the knuckle at the chine ends. We have produced new patterns for both alloy and steel, and have shown how the advantages of alloy can be used to offset the higher material costs. To us the advantages of origami construction are not that it produces the cheapest boat. Rather that it can allow a small builder to produce the most economical boat. Different owners have different needs, and over the life-cycle of a boat cheapest does not mean most economical. When you buy a product, do you always buy the cheapest? Or, do you buy the one likely to give the best value? You could go to an auto wrecker, and with time and skill assemble a car from salvaged parts for less than the cost of buying a car. Yet, for most of us this is not an economical way to get a practical, safe, reliable vehicle that we would trust to carry our families and loved ones. Why think differently for a boat? In my own personal case, I bought a $2000 computer and wrote a program that I sold, and ended up with a sailboat and money in the bank to go cruising. A 39' foot sailboat and a cruising kitty for $2000 is a whole lot cheaper than a 32' sailboat for $6000. Keep that in mind when someone tells you their way is the "best" way. By that logic, you should be buying a computer if you want to own a boat, because it certainly worked for me. We can provide single, double, and triple chine origami patterns, in steel or alloy, single or twin keels to suit each individual owner's requirements. Let us know what you would like to see in a boat. greg elliott www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2202|2151|2003-09-27 20:52:31|brentswain38|Re: Has this group died?|With so much good ,little used sailing gear around for a fraction of the new price , only a fool would buy it new, without shopping around a bit. I recently worked with a graduate student who took computers. When he started working in the field it paid $100 per hour. Now the same job pays $10 per hour and he's still $15,000 in debt and thinking of getting a welding ticket. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Origami Magic is committed to the growth of the origami concept. To this end we continue to innovate with new designs, new patterns, new techniques and new materials. > > We have made fantastic advances over the years in 3-D computer modeling of origami hulls, to the point where we can take just about any sailboat design and reliably create a very accurate origami pattern for that boat. There are lots of great boat designs in the world from which to create an origami pattern, to suit the different requirements of different owners. > > We have added structural support for twin keels directly into the skin of the hull by introducing a strengthening chine at the keel attachment. We have removed the chine-end knuckle from origami construction. Our patterns simply do not have the knuckle at the chine ends. We have produced new patterns for both alloy and steel, and have shown how the advantages of alloy can be used to offset the higher material costs. > > To us the advantages of origami construction are not that it produces the cheapest boat. Rather that it can allow a small builder to produce the most economical boat. Different owners have different needs, and over the life-cycle of a boat cheapest does not mean most economical. When you buy a product, do you always buy the cheapest? Or, do you buy the one likely to give the best value? > > You could go to an auto wrecker, and with time and skill assemble a car from salvaged parts for less than the cost of buying a car. Yet, for most of us this is not an economical way to get a practical, safe, reliable vehicle that we would trust to carry our families and loved ones. Why think differently for a boat? > > In my own personal case, I bought a $2000 computer and wrote a program that I sold, and ended up with a sailboat and money in the bank to go cruising. A 39' foot sailboat and a cruising kitty for $2000 is a whole lot cheaper than a 32' sailboat for $6000. Keep that in mind when someone tells you their way is the "best" way. By that logic, you should be buying a computer if you want to own a boat, because it certainly worked for me. > > We can provide single, double, and triple chine origami patterns, in steel or alloy, single or twin keels to suit each individual owner's requirements. Let us know what you would like to see in a boat. > > greg elliott > www.origamimagic.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2203|2200|2003-09-28 05:56:17|mynode|Re: welding Poly|Quite the contrary Geoff, I was hoping to find someone with some experience working with these plastics. I'm having difficulty imagining how one would manage a long butt weld by the process you described. Say you had a butt seam 3 meters long in 4mm thick material. What would be the best method of welding this? Would it be better to add a backing strip and weld both sides to that? I've also heard about methods that involve filler material. Perhaps a v groove weld with filler would be more managable. - Mark K --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "..." wrote: > I hope my post re welding Poly has not sent you all to sleep, it has gone > very quiet since then. > Geoff > Cheshire England |
2204|2204|2003-09-28 09:39:18|Phil S.|Christmas Islands|Hey Brent I just read your letter in Latts And Atts about getting kicked out of the Christmas Islands. Sorry to hear about it. Maybe you should carry a grade school globe with you for the stupid people on the planet that don't know that Canada is a Different country than the USA. Glad your back though. About the Computer Comment. I agree I know of several guys that made big bucks during the millenium bug lie, now most are having trouble making more than $18 or $20 and Hour. I am also getting a little tired of all the advertising and spam on the group. If you have a cool idea, great share it with the group, otherwise quit advertising what you do. I am just about ready done with my origami tug hull plans. After I build the paper models I will post my idea and design. Any Ideas for a good format to do that in? Jpeg and GIF work ok for the web but an eps or dwg file would allow for resizing without the pixilization. Thanks Phil|
2205|2204|2003-09-28 10:35:51|Olav Lindkjoelen|Re: Christmas Islands|Phil, Publish them in DWG format, and point people to the free Autodesk Express Viewer that will allow them to view and print the DWG files you create. They can download it here: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=2787358&siteID=12311 Olav! -- ============================================ Olav Lindkjoelen -------------------------------------------- Email: olav@... Phone: +47 62812530, 3am est-6pm est Yahoo IM: lindkjoelen AOL IM: olav63 MSN IM: olav@... -------------------------------------------- Retire Quickly Independent Representative #91328. http://www.retirequickly.com/91328 Free Quick Retirement seminar: http://www.quickretirementseminar.com/91328 ============================================ On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:39:15 -0000, Phil S. wrote: > Hey Brent I just read your letter in Latts And Atts about getting kicked > out of the Christmas Islands. Sorry to hear about it. Maybe you should > carry a grade school globe with you for the stupid people on the planet > that don't know that Canada is a Different country than the USA. > > Glad your back though. > > About the Computer Comment. I agree I know of several guys that made big > bucks during the millenium bug lie, now most are having trouble making > more than $18 or $20 and Hour. > > I am also getting a little tired of all the advertising and spam on the > group. If you have a cool idea, great share it with the group, otherwise > quit advertising what you do. > > I am just about ready done with my origami tug hull plans. After I build > the paper models I will post my idea and design. Any Ideas for a good > format to do that in? Jpeg and GIF work ok for the web but an eps or dwg > file would allow for resizing without the pixilization. > Thanks > Phil > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2206|2200|2003-09-28 11:25:33|keith green|Re: welding Poly|Here on the West coast of Canada, fish are transported in insulated totes made of this material. Sometimes they get damaged and require repair.. The material is at least 6mm thick on these. Usually they end up with a jagged crack or the corner of a foot broken off. I believe they were repair via the hot-air gun method. The gun has a special tip with a small cone-shaped orifice for the air and, on top of that, a smaller tube formed in to preheat and guide the filler material. As I stated before, the stuff I see available to the average guy here seems to top out at the Steinel level of equipment. Here's a link to an international supplier of professional plastic welding equipment; http://www.wegenerwelding.com/ . There's lot's more if you do a google search for plastic welding or thermoplastic welding. keith green Vancouver, BC ----- Original Message ----- From: mynode To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 2:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: welding Poly Quite the contrary Geoff, I was hoping to find someone with some experience working with these plastics. I'm having difficulty imagining how one would manage a long butt weld by the process you described. Say you had a butt seam 3 meters long in 4mm thick material. What would be the best method of welding this? Would it be better to add a backing strip and weld both sides to that? I've also heard about methods that involve filler material. Perhaps a v groove weld with filler would be more managable. - Mark K --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "..." wrote: > I hope my post re welding Poly has not sent you all to sleep, it has gone > very quiet since then. > Geoff > Cheshire England Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2208|2151|2003-09-28 13:57:13|brentswain38|Re: Has this group died?|What's a pleasure boat for anyway?I've managed to get my cost of living and cruising so low that since 1976 I've been able to work for about a month a year and cruise and play the rest of the time, including three trips to the South Pacific and back, one to Mexico and back and 8 trips to the Charlottes and back as well as cruising Canada's Pacific Southwest eleven months a year.Is someone suggesting thatI'm doing it all wrong? As I mention in my book, you can judge the value of advice by looking critically at what it's done for the person offering it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Origami Magic is committed to the growth of the origami concept. To this end we continue to innovate with new designs, new patterns, new techniques and new materials. > > We have made fantastic advances over the years in 3-D computer modeling of origami hulls, to the point where we can take just about any sailboat design and reliably create a very accurate origami pattern for that boat. There are lots of great boat designs in the world from which to create an origami pattern, to suit the different requirements of different owners. > > We have added structural support for twin keels directly into the skin of the hull by introducing a strengthening chine at the keel attachment. We have removed the chine-end knuckle from origami construction. Our patterns simply do not have the knuckle at the chine ends. We have produced new patterns for both alloy and steel, and have shown how the advantages of alloy can be used to offset the higher material costs. > > To us the advantages of origami construction are not that it produces the cheapest boat. Rather that it can allow a small builder to produce the most economical boat. Different owners have different needs, and over the life-cycle of a boat cheapest does not mean most economical. When you buy a product, do you always buy the cheapest? Or, do you buy the one likely to give the best value? > > You could go to an auto wrecker, and with time and skill assemble a car from salvaged parts for less than the cost of buying a car. Yet, for most of us this is not an economical way to get a practical, safe, reliable vehicle that we would trust to carry our families and loved ones. Why think differently for a boat? > > In my own personal case, I bought a $2000 computer and wrote a program that I sold, and ended up with a sailboat and money in the bank to go cruising. A 39' foot sailboat and a cruising kitty for $2000 is a whole lot cheaper than a 32' sailboat for $6000. Keep that in mind when someone tells you their way is the "best" way. By that logic, you should be buying a computer if you want to own a boat, because it certainly worked for me. > > We can provide single, double, and triple chine origami patterns, in steel or alloy, single or twin keels to suit each individual owner's requirements. Let us know what you would like to see in a boat. > > greg elliott > www.origamimagic.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2209|2151|2003-09-28 18:21:17|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Has this group died?|Since 1984 I've spent most of my time cruising with an all girl crew. Canada, USA, Mexico, Hawaii, Palmyra, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, New Caledonia, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah. Raised 2 children aboard along the way. I am not retired, yet I have a income 12 months a year, even when I don't work. I started out with nothing, working for peanuts in an office programming computers. Looking out the window one day I realized I could be doing the same job sitting on a boat in a tropical paradise, which is how I got started cruising. Personally I don't want to be a single-hander with little or no money in my pocket. Most people I know are the same. They want the resources to raise a family, own property, provide for their old age, or simply open up other options in their lives. Most people think you can only have one or the other. You can either go cruising with little or no money, or stay ashore and work and have a family and money. To those people I say you have it all wrong. If you stay ashore and work, you will likely spend most of your life in debt. Taxes and the cost of living almost make that a certainty. In the previous generation, one working parent was sufficient to support a family. Now for most families both parents must work just to make ends meet. This situation will only get worse as global competition increases. I you plan to go cruising after you retire, you are unlikely to every go. Most people do not have the strength, reflexes, or health to start a cruising lifestyle at age 65. By that age people are tied to medication and doctors, and cannot travel for extended periods to remote third world locations. Most people we meet cruising are in their 30's, 40's and 50's. If you go cruising without a plan to make money, then you will not have money, and your options will be limited. Increasingly it costs money to visit foreign countries via yacht. Without money you can get kicked out of places like Christmas Island because you cannot pay the harbor, customs, and immigration fees. The trick to cruising is to get a first world income while you are cruising in the third world. That is all there is to it. The gap between the first world and the third is so great, that even a small first world income is sufficient to keep you going, and any surplus can be invested to generate an increasingly greater income back home. How to get that income is up to you. Examine your talents, and see what you can do. If you are an english speaking caucasian with a first world education, then you have a tremendous advantage. In many developing countries such people are in short supply and high demand. You are needed to help the first world and the third world do business, and the pay can be very good indeed. When I first went cruising I was $110,000 in debt - the bank owned the boat, not me. After cruising for 20 years I have no debts, own a house, a boat, and have money in the bank. I spent much of that time playing with my children on the beach in remote tropical locations. Consider the options: 1. Spend your life working to get out of debt. 2. Spend you life single-handed cruising with little or no money. 3. Spend your life cruising with your family with money in your pocket and increasing wealth ashore. By all means judge advice by what it has done for the person offering it. I am the proof that option 3 works. So, who has the better advice for you? It all depends, which option would you prefer. 1, 2, or 3? greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2210|2151|2003-09-28 20:02:33|Alan Smith|Re: Has this group died?|You forgot about Option 4: Go cruising now with useful skills that allow you to make just enough to live adequately. Actually, I think most people are on Option 1 trying to get on Option 3. Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com|
2211|2151|2003-09-29 03:52:01|Olav Lindkjoelen|Re: Has this group died?|Hi Greg, I am a computer programmer too. I have had these very same thoughts. Please tell me more about your lifestyle. What kind of a boat do you have? How do you do things with school and education for your children? What do you do for a living (in specific) to generate a full time income while cruising? Olav! On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:22:04 -0700, wrote: > Since 1984 I've spent most of my time cruising with an all girl crew. > Canada, USA, Mexico, Hawaii, Palmyra, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, New Caledonia, > Australia, Papua New Guinea, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, > Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah. Raised 2 children aboard along the way. I am not > retired, yet I have a income 12 months a year, even when I don't work. > > I started out with nothing, working for peanuts in an office programming > computers. Looking out the window one day I realized I could be doing the > same job sitting on a boat in a tropical paradise, which is how I got > started cruising. > > Personally I don't want to be a single-hander with little or no money in > my pocket. Most people I know are the same. They want the resources to > raise a family, own property, provide for their old age, or simply open > up other options in their lives. > > Most people think you can only have one or the other. You can either go > cruising with little or no money, or stay ashore and work and have a > family and money. To those people I say you have it all wrong. > > If you stay ashore and work, you will likely spend most of your life in > debt. Taxes and the cost of living almost make that a certainty. In the > previous generation, one working parent was sufficient to support a > family. Now for most families both parents must work just to make ends > meet. This situation will only get worse as global competition increases. > > I you plan to go cruising after you retire, you are unlikely to every go. > Most people do not have the strength, reflexes, or health to start a > cruising lifestyle at age 65. By that age people are tied to medication > and doctors, and cannot travel for extended periods to remote third world > locations. Most people we meet cruising are in their 30's, 40's and 50's. > > If you go cruising without a plan to make money, then you will not have > money, and your options will be limited. Increasingly it costs money to > visit foreign countries via yacht. Without money you can get kicked out > of places like Christmas Island because you cannot pay the harbor, > customs, and immigration fees. > > The trick to cruising is to get a first world income while you are > cruising in the third world. That is all there is to it. The gap between > the first world and the third is so great, that even a small first world > income is sufficient to keep you going, and any surplus can be invested > to generate an increasingly greater income back home. > > How to get that income is up to you. Examine your talents, and see what > you can do. If you are an english speaking caucasian with a first world > education, then you have a tremendous advantage. In many developing > countries such people are in short supply and high demand. You are needed > to help the first world and the third world do business, and the pay can > be very good indeed. > > When I first went cruising I was $110,000 in debt - the bank owned the > boat, not me. After cruising for 20 years I have no debts, own a house, a > boat, and have money in the bank. I spent much of that time playing with > my children on the beach in remote tropical locations. > > Consider the options: > > 1. Spend your life working to get out of debt. > 2. Spend you life single-handed cruising with little or no money. > 3. Spend your life cruising with your family with money in your pocket > and increasing wealth ashore. > > By all means judge advice by what it has done for the person offering it. > I am the proof that option 3 works. > > So, who has the better advice for you? It all depends, which option would > you prefer. 1, 2, or 3? > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2212|2212|2003-09-29 05:02:37|bahadiregi|Ron Pearson contact address|Does any one know what is contact address of origami boat designer Ron Pearson.I have seen picture of his design Mungo-2 40 feet origami steel boat on the files of this group.Hard chine line over sea hided with striking bars and hull looks like radius chine and stylish. Regards, Bahadir Eði|
2213|2151|2003-09-29 05:32:06|Len den Besten|Re: Has this group died?|Hi, Could you elaborate on the possibillties you mention for educated cruisers in the third world. Let's take a 49 year old finance / ict-oriented guy. How would you go about it to get employed in what developing country. Regards, Len. > On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:22:04 -0700, > wrote: > How to get that income is up to you. Examine your > talents, and see what > you can do. If you are an english speaking > caucasian with a first world > education, then you have a tremendous advantage. > In many developing > countries such people are in short supply and high > demand. You are needed > to help the first world and the third world do > business, and the pay can > be very good indeed. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com|
2214|2214|2003-09-29 09:30:10|jim dorey|Re: Meet glamorous tall guys!|how bout' poop? ain't an easy way to stop spammers from having a computer automatically sign up for a webmail account then spam every group they can find. i get from your message that you feel a regular in this group is responsible, it wounds us deeply, we offer condolences, where do we send the fish sticks(more crap)? Henri and Cathy Naths wrote: > dont' send me crap.!!!! -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2215|2151|2003-09-29 09:52:20|Phil S.|Lifestyle Choices|Greg: Many of us that are interested in building and origami boat, have no interest in cruising full time. I have seen most of Asia (Korea, Japan, Thailand, HK and the Philippines) and frankly have no interest in returning there unarmed. I am more interested in a cruising Europe the Med and especially the high latitude countries. I love to be on the water, but I also have many other interests. Raising my 5 kids, training and working with draft horses (would be difficult on a boat) and building my house are a few. I am not willing to sacrifice all of my other interests just to cruise. Also picking up and moving 5 teenagers (Currently 18, 17, 16, 15 and 14) just to satisfy MY desire to go play on the water, would be the height of irresponsibility, I won't do it. My plan right now is to build a decent small boat (28 ft Tug) that I can weekend cruise on the Lakes, Canals and rivers of the Northeast United States. I may someday, build an origami Troller yacht, and do some long range cruising. I won't do it if it means sacrificing my responsibilities to family (Children and Grandchildren). With my family, I can justify the expense of a well made, built from scrounged materials, paid for as I go, steel boat. Another point, if you are happy with what you are doing and enjoying the lifestyle you are living. Who is anyone else to criticize? In the fine tradition of Anne Hill, live simply, the way that fits you best. > 1. Spend your life working to get out of debt. > 2. Spend you life single-handed cruising with little or no money. > 3. Spend your life cruising with your family with money in your pocket and increasing wealth ashore. > > By all means judge advice by what it has done for the person offering it. I am the proof that option 3 works. I say you missed a few Greg, 4. Enjoying the life you have already chosen, and enjoying the challenges in each new day. 5. Skip out on your family and responsibilities, and become a boat bum. 6. Sail/Cruise with your family when you can and enjoy the time that you get to do it. "To much chocolate cake is bad for the soul" I am thrilled that Brent has shared his boat building ideas and philosophy with us. Few of us, Greg, would be lucky enough to hit a windfall money making software idea like you did, or do it early enough in life where we don't have to many other responsibilities. Just my Opinion Phil Sacchitella Http://www.newbarndesign.com|
2216|2212|2003-09-29 10:54:41|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Ron Pearson contact address|Ron Pearson is a partner in Origami Magic. http://www.origamimagic.com/ My boat, the Lazy Bones was built by Ron, and I have sailed her for 15 years in the tropics with great success. Pictures of the boat can be seen at our web site. I've passed your email along to Ron. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones ----- Original Message ----- From: bahadiregi To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 2:02 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Ron Pearson contact address Does any one know what is contact address of origami boat designer Ron Pearson.I have seen picture of his design Mungo-2 40 feet origami steel boat on the files of this group.Hard chine line over sea hided with striking bars and hull looks like radius chine and stylish. Regards, Bahadir Eði Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2217|2151|2003-09-29 12:30:24|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Has this group died?|Hi Len, Much of what I did was before the Internet. It was a struggle, as we had to do a lot of work via fax and word of mouth. Sort of like the advent of GPS, the Internet has opened up cruising for the average person. I did many different things to make money along the way. I wrote computer software while sailing, and had some success selling this via a publisher back home. I helped out people on their boats at every chance, and made money that way. I bought a house before I left and rented it out to pay the mortgage. Eventually the rent paid off the mortgage, and I now have a steady income. I did some chartering, but you must be cautious about doing this. I left a small business operating in my home country, because it is often easier for a foreign company to pay an invoice to your company back home than it is to pay you personally. Also, if the boat is owned by a company, rather than by you personally, it is harder for the officials to shake you down. You don't own the boat, so they can't threaten you nearly so easily. We flew back home when finances permitted to visit family. I used those opportunities to keep in contact with everyone I could think of, and later picked up short term computer contract work flying into different countries. Also, I worked in foreign countries along the way, which is what you have asked about. Many other yachts have done this, so what I am going to relate is a mixture of my experience, and what other yachts have told me over sundowners. In almost every developing country we have traveled to there are Internet cafes. Get yourself a web accessible email address on hotmail or some similar service, and keep that address. Get an email version of your resume ready. Have many different versions of your resume, that emphasize different skills, because you never really know what people are looking for. Create a list of countries that you would like to visit, and would be practical to cruise to from your location. Generally, the more unsettled a country, the more desperate they are for expats - no one else wants to go. Of course the higher the risk to you and your family, so you must use some common sense. In any case, in any foreign country you travel to, you must be careful because of the different laws, local customs, driving habits, etc, etc. Search on the Internet for jobs and job placement agencies, with opportunities in the countries you want to visit. Send out your resumes, and follow up religiously with anyone that answers you back, even if they just say no. If they can't use you, they may have a contact that can. Make the point with the people that might hire you that you will pay your moving costs. Most companies have to pay big $$ to move foreign workers, and it is a risk, because they might not work out. So they tend to be cautious. If you are paying your own way, then you can point out that there is less risk to them. Once you get your first job, you are on your way. Leave yourself lots of time. Don't risk your lives or break the boat making an impossible schedule. Take time getting to your job, because now you are cruising. On the job in your new location, join the local yacht club and keep your boat there. Live aboard, and put the housing allowance your new employer gives you directly into your pocket. Go out racing and cruising with the other sailors every chance you get, and improve your skills. Other yachts are a gold mine of information - many other yachties are also working as they cruise, which means they know what works locally and what doesn't, and where the best opportunities are to be found at the current time. Foreign companies usually offer annual leave back to your home country with paid air fare. This is a good way to visit friends and family back home if you stay on the job at least one year. You are not cruising while you are working, but you should be able to do a lot of cruising on the weekends, and racing during the week, all in a tropical location. With your salary and housing benefits and a low cost of living, you should end up at least as well off as you were back home. Do not stop this process once you have a job. Start looking for your next job, and when you find one that you like better than what you are doing, it is time to move on. In any case, cruising is a nomadic lifestyle, and the longer you stay in any one place the harder it is to leave. Onboard a yacht you move with the weather, so plan accordingly. Leave a large window before starting the new job and you have your next cruising opportunity. Hope this helps, regards, Greg http://www.origamimagic.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Len den Besten To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Has this group died? Hi, Could you elaborate on the possibillties you mention for educated cruisers in the third world. Let's take a 49 year old finance / ict-oriented guy. How would you go about it to get employed in what developing country. Regards, Len. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2218|2151|2003-09-29 12:46:03|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Has this group died?|HI Olav, I've included much of your request in my reply to Len. We home schooled the children on the boat, and also took time out to put them in formal school those times we were working ashore. The Lazy Bones is a 39' steel triple chine design custom built by Ron Pearson. regards, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Olav Lindkjoelen To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:51 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Has this group died? Hi Greg, I am a computer programmer too. I have had these very same thoughts. Please tell me more about your lifestyle. What kind of a boat do you have? How do you do things with school and education for your children? What do you do for a living (in specific) to generate a full time income while cruising? Olav! On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:22:04 -0700, wrote: > Since 1984 I've spent most of my time cruising with an all girl crew. > Canada, USA, Mexico, Hawaii, Palmyra, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, New Caledonia, > Australia, Papua New Guinea, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, > Brunei, Sarawak, Sabah. Raised 2 children aboard along the way. I am not > retired, yet I have a income 12 months a year, even when I don't work. > > I started out with nothing, working for peanuts in an office programming > computers. Looking out the window one day I realized I could be doing the > same job sitting on a boat in a tropical paradise, which is how I got > started cruising. > > Personally I don't want to be a single-hander with little or no money in > my pocket. Most people I know are the same. They want the resources to > raise a family, own property, provide for their old age, or simply open > up other options in their lives. > > Most people think you can only have one or the other. You can either go > cruising with little or no money, or stay ashore and work and have a > family and money. To those people I say you have it all wrong. > > If you stay ashore and work, you will likely spend most of your life in > debt. Taxes and the cost of living almost make that a certainty. In the > previous generation, one working parent was sufficient to support a > family. Now for most families both parents must work just to make ends > meet. This situation will only get worse as global competition increases. > > I you plan to go cruising after you retire, you are unlikely to every go. > Most people do not have the strength, reflexes, or health to start a > cruising lifestyle at age 65. By that age people are tied to medication > and doctors, and cannot travel for extended periods to remote third world > locations. Most people we meet cruising are in their 30's, 40's and 50's. > > If you go cruising without a plan to make money, then you will not have > money, and your options will be limited. Increasingly it costs money to > visit foreign countries via yacht. Without money you can get kicked out > of places like Christmas Island because you cannot pay the harbor, > customs, and immigration fees. > > The trick to cruising is to get a first world income while you are > cruising in the third world. That is all there is to it. The gap between > the first world and the third is so great, that even a small first world > income is sufficient to keep you going, and any surplus can be invested > to generate an increasingly greater income back home. > > How to get that income is up to you. Examine your talents, and see what > you can do. If you are an english speaking caucasian with a first world > education, then you have a tremendous advantage. In many developing > countries such people are in short supply and high demand. You are needed > to help the first world and the third world do business, and the pay can > be very good indeed. > > When I first went cruising I was $110,000 in debt - the bank owned the > boat, not me. After cruising for 20 years I have no debts, own a house, a > boat, and have money in the bank. I spent much of that time playing with > my children on the beach in remote tropical locations. > > Consider the options: > > 1. Spend your life working to get out of debt. > 2. Spend you life single-handed cruising with little or no money. > 3. Spend your life cruising with your family with money in your pocket > and increasing wealth ashore. > > By all means judge advice by what it has done for the person offering it. > I am the proof that option 3 works. > > So, who has the better advice for you? It all depends, which option would > you prefer. 1, 2, or 3? > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2219|2151|2003-09-29 17:41:23|fmichael graham|Re: Has this group died?|Len: There are two excellent books written by Susan Griffiths that detail working abroad. One is, in fact, called "Working Abroad", I am not sure of the name of the other book. If you wish to travel in Asia or South/Central America/Mexico, you will easily find work teaching english as a second language. Depending on the country, you will make either a lot of money or enough to pay the bills. I did this in the early '90's (Asia). My only regret was that I didn't have a sailboat to "kick around on". I did, however, build an eighty-foot fishing boat in the Philippines. I understand that my boat is still plying the waters for the muslim gang that took it from me. Oh well, that's a story to tell my grandchildren. You can also make money by carrying cargo for trade, assisting others in their boat repairs, or by having skills in sail making/repair, diesel engine repair, etc. I could go on, but suffice to say that I have rarely seen a seafarer "stuck" and there are enough opportunities to pay your way as long as your not afraid to roll up your sleeves. Think about this; if you can teach a group of locals how to build a boat by bending a couple of pieces of metal together, you have something to offer in most developing countries (of course, you'll probably have to plan on staying in one place for awhile!). Good luck! Don't let the "what if's" stop you from really living! Mike Len den Besten wrote: Hi, Could you elaborate on the possibillties you mention for educated cruisers in the third world. Let's take a 49 year old finance / ict-oriented guy. How would you go about it to get employed in what developing country. Regards, Len. > On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:22:04 -0700, > wrote: > How to get that income is up to you. Examine your > talents, and see what > you can do. If you are an english speaking > caucasian with a first world > education, then you have a tremendous advantage. > In many developing > countries such people are in short supply and high > demand. You are needed > to help the first world and the third world do > business, and the pay can > be very good indeed. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2220|2220|2003-09-30 01:11:22|info@easysoftwareinc.com|G55 construction details|Our latest innovation at Origami Magic has been in the design and construction of the bow of the G55. Modern yacht designs have adopted the "U" shaped bow section for performance reasons. The challenge was to reproduce this in an origami pattern, which standardly have a "V" shaped bow section. Through extensive use of our 3-D origami computer modeling we were able to create a new method of developing the origami bows, resulting in the "U" shaped bow section in the G55. This bow maintains both the centerline rocker and deadrise to avoid pounding. This innovation is an important step forward as it allows us to reproduce both traditional and modern hull forms in our origami patterns. Previously we added an origami sugar-scoop to our designs. With an aging population, not all sailors have the ability to board comfortably from a ladder. The sugar-scoop allows for the ladder to be replaced by permanent stairs, and provides a convenient platform for water sports. If you have ever felt origami boats were limited in shape or design, have another look. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_construction.htm We can provide single, double, and triple chine origami patterns, in steel or alloy, single or twin keels, "V" or "U" bow sections, sugar scoop or traditional transom, to suit each individual owner's requirements. Let us know what you would like to see in a boat. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2221|2151|2003-09-30 12:42:51|Michael Casling|Re: Lifestyle Choices|There are no correct answers or incorrect answers, nor an option list about how we plan and live our lives and how it relates to cruising. What we need to ensure is that we maintain the right to chose what we want to do. Living in a rural area with the kids and the animals is a wonderful way to go, taking the kids and cruising is a wonderful way to go. Earning a pile of money, or not is fine with me. In my day job I work with people and their money, or lack of. I can admire the efforts of others knowing that I would not chose that path. If I could modify Greg's option one: To spend your live attaining the goals you want to reach with yourself and family ( which would include getting out of debt ) and stay healthy enough to enjoy your self as you age. Cruising after 60 with money to live on is quite possible and realistic. Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:52 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Lifestyle Choices Greg: Many of us that are interested in building and origami boat, have no interest in cruising full time. I have seen most of Asia (Korea, Japan, Thailand, HK and the Philippines) and frankly have no interest in returning there unarmed. I am more interested in a cruising Europe the Med and especially the high latitude countries. I love to be on the water, but I also have many other interests. Raising my 5 kids, training and working with draft horses (would be difficult on a boat) and building my house are a few. I am not willing to sacrifice all of my other interests just to cruise. Also picking up and moving 5 teenagers (Currently 18, 17, 16, 15 and 14) just to satisfy MY desire to go play on the water, would be the height of irresponsibility, I won't do it. My plan right now is to build a decent small boat (28 ft Tug) that I can weekend cruise on the Lakes, Canals and rivers of the Northeast United States. I may someday, build an origami Troller yacht, and do some long range cruising. I won't do it if it means sacrificing my responsibilities to family (Children and Grandchildren). With my family, I can justify the expense of a well made, built from scrounged materials, paid for as I go, steel boat. Another point, if you are happy with what you are doing and enjoying the lifestyle you are living. Who is anyone else to criticize? In the fine tradition of Anne Hill, live simply, the way that fits you best. > 1. Spend your life working to get out of debt. > 2. Spend you life single-handed cruising with little or no money. > 3. Spend your life cruising with your family with money in your pocket and increasing wealth ashore. > > By all means judge advice by what it has done for the person offering it. I am the proof that option 3 works. I say you missed a few Greg, 4. Enjoying the life you have already chosen, and enjoying the challenges in each new day. 5. Skip out on your family and responsibilities, and become a boat bum. 6. Sail/Cruise with your family when you can and enjoy the time that you get to do it. "To much chocolate cake is bad for the soul" I am thrilled that Brent has shared his boat building ideas and philosophy with us. Few of us, Greg, would be lucky enough to hit a windfall money making software idea like you did, or do it early enough in life where we don't have to many other responsibilities. Just my Opinion Phil Sacchitella Http://www.newbarndesign.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2222|2200|2003-09-30 14:22:33|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding Poly|A couple of companies that I work with weld polypropylene (PP) and polyethylene (PE). One firm welds PE pipe for landfill gas collectionsystems. These pipes, which can be up to more than 12" diameter are butt welded by clamping in a purpose built automatic machine. From memory the mating faces are machined true then the faces bought together with a hot plate between them. At the required time and temperature the faces are moved back the hot plate removed and the faces bought back together under pressure. The machine logs the times and temperature of the operation for quality assurance purposes. The other company makes tanks and extraction ducts for metal cleaning and plating plant. Many of the tanks and ducts are fabricated from 4 to 6mm (5/32" to 1/4")PP sheet. These are machined using mostly woodworking routers and other woodworking tools. Any oxidation is scraped clear before welding with a fine nozzle hot air gun and the appropriate filler/welding rod as has been described in previous posts. To make a right angle, for instance, a router with a vee bit was used to cut along the fold line leaving about 1mm (3/64")uncut. The sides were folded into a right angle, the sides of the vee coming together, and a fillet welded along the inside of the fold. To make the sheet into tubes it was heated slowly using a large nozzle hot air gun, like a paint stripper DIY gun and the sheet put through a set of simple rolls. Heat travels slowly through plastic and when heating it to make shapes it is easy to burn it before the other side is hot enough to be moulded. The PP used in making tanks was a beige colour and not particularly resistant to UV. Black PP is more resistant because the carbon black in it stops the UV rays penetrating far. Where the fume extraction ducts passed out through the roof after the extraction fans and scrubbers a special PP was used with a scrim on the outer face. After fabrication the duct was coated with fibre glass, which adhered to the scrim and could be finished with any colour gel coat to make it weather resistant. I think they used backing strip when making butt welds but cannot be sure. I can ask if required. The welds were tested by putting metallic strip on one side of the weld and seeing if they could get an electric discharge through the weld. I am a bit hazy on details but can ask if necesary. I understand that by using a router with vee or U bit fold marks can be made in a sheet which can then be used as a hinge with many thousands of movements before failure. This would be usefull in a folding boat or even marine hinges. I have heated PVC tube in the middle and the pulled each end to reduce the diameter in the middle to a smaller size. One can make reducers, elbows, fishtails etc this way. Regards, Ted|
2223|2151|2003-09-30 16:29:36|Len den Besten|Re: Has this group died?|Hi Mike, Thank you for your thoughtful reply. My wife and I really are thinking about quitting our present jobs and go en get "out there". Two kids are on their own and self-sustained. We've sold our house, live on a SY. We're 49 now so this is the time to make a decision. I sure will search for those books. It is a big decision so when I can reduce any risks or incertanties I think it's only sensible to do all I can. Thanks again. Regards, Len. --- fmichael graham wrote: > Len: > There are two excellent books written by Susan > Griffiths that detail working abroad. One is, in > fact, called "Working Abroad", I am not sure of the > name of the other book. > If you wish to travel in Asia or South/Central > America/Mexico, you will easily find work teaching > english as a second language. Depending on the > country, you will make either a lot of money or > enough to pay the bills. I did this in the early > '90's (Asia). My only regret was that I didn't have > a sailboat to "kick around on". I did, however, > build an eighty-foot fishing boat in the > Philippines. I understand that my boat is still > plying the waters for the muslim gang that took it > from me. Oh well, that's a story to tell my > grandchildren. You can also make money by carrying > cargo for trade, assisting others in their boat > repairs, or by having skills in sail making/repair, > diesel engine repair, etc. > I could go on, but suffice to say that I have rarely > seen a seafarer "stuck" and there are enough > opportunities to pay your way as long as your not > afraid to roll up your sleeves. Think about this; if > you can teach a group of locals how to build a boat > by bending a couple of pieces of metal together, you > have something to offer in most developing countries > (of course, you'll probably have to plan on staying > in one place for awhile!). > Good luck! Don't let the "what if's" stop you from > really living! > > Mike > > > Len den Besten wrote: > Hi, > > Could you elaborate on the possibillties you mention > for educated cruisers in the third world. Let's take > a > 49 year old finance / ict-oriented guy. How would > you > go about it to get employed in what developing > country. > > Regards, Len. > > > > On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:22:04 -0700, > > wrote: > > > > > How to get that income is up to you. Examine your > > talents, and see what > > you can do. If you are an english speaking > > caucasian with a first world > > education, then you have a tremendous advantage. > > In many developing > > countries such people are in short supply and high > > demand. You are needed > > to help the first world and the third world do > > business, and the pay can > > be very good indeed. > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product > search > http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com|
2224|2220|2003-09-30 19:27:20|brentswain38|Re: G55 construction details|The amount of V or U shape in the bow of an origami boat is determined by the amount of curve or straightness of the stem. My current boat has considerably more U shape to the bow than my last two and it goes through a head sea much more easily. Previous boats would stick their bows into a sea and not get any reserve buoyancy until they were well buried, then it would build up suddenly at deck level ,and stop the boat. With a U shape it builds up buoyancy evenly and gradually.Clipper bows on a small boat tend to stop the boat suddenly when they hit a head sea, almost like hitting a rock. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Our latest innovation at Origami Magic has been in the design and construction of the bow of the G55. > > Modern yacht designs have adopted the "U" shaped bow section for performance reasons. The challenge was to reproduce this in an origami pattern, which standardly have a "V" shaped bow section. > > Through extensive use of our 3-D origami computer modeling we were able to create a new method of developing the origami bows, resulting in the "U" shaped bow section in the G55. This bow maintains both the centerline rocker and deadrise to avoid pounding. This innovation is an important step forward as it allows us to reproduce both traditional and modern hull forms in our origami patterns. > > Previously we added an origami sugar-scoop to our designs. With an aging population, not all sailors have the ability to board comfortably from a ladder. The sugar-scoop allows for the ladder to be replaced by permanent stairs, and provides a convenient platform for water sports. > > If you have ever felt origami boats were limited in shape or design, have another look. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_constr uction.htm > > We can provide single, double, and triple chine origami patterns, in steel or alloy, single or twin keels, "V" or "U" bow sections, sugar scoop or traditional transom, to suit each individual owner's requirements. Let us know what you would like to see in a boat. > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com/ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2225|2204|2003-10-01 00:28:53|tronfxr0|Re: Christmas Islands|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > I am just about ready done with my origami tug hull plans. After I build the paper > models I will post my idea and design. Any Ideas for a good format to do that in? > Jpeg and GIF work ok for the web but an eps or dwg file would allow for resizing > without the pixilization. > Thanks > Phil jpeg is great to get the idea across (small too) and dwg is perfect for pc users only (AutoCAD). dxf was cross platform compatable (and the most dwg like with a few problems) but pdf seems to have the corner in that market (cross platform). Most plans I download on my humble little iBook are pdf. and, of course in this efile world, size DOES matter- depending on your connection! Mike Keck Observatory Atop Mauna Kea Big Island of Hawaii|
2226|2226|2003-10-01 13:43:21|Bert|cruising life style|Michael wrote: Cruising after 60 with money to live on is quite possible and realistic. Michael Casling I've a friend who at 75 singlehanded to Europe and had a great time of it (from Florida), so there's even hope for us old timers ;o)... Follow your dreams as long as they're worth following! Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Mi|
2227|2227|2003-10-01 13:53:29|Bert|Michael's 28 foot tug design?|Michael Casling wrote: My plan right now is to build a decent small boat (28 ft Tug) that I can weekend cruise on the Lakes, Canals and rivers of the Northeast United States. Hey Michael, have you found any plans that excite you yet? Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Mi|
2228|2228|2003-10-01 13:59:22|Bert|Brent, clarification...the U's and V's...|Hi Brent, You wrote: "The amount of V or U shape in the bow of an origami boat is determined by the amount of curve or straightness of the stem. My current boat has considerably more U shape to the bow than my last two." Is it safe to assume that all your present plans include the U type hull, with lots of buoyancy in the bows? Thanks, Bert|
2229|2226|2003-10-01 17:59:32|Michael Casling|Re: cruising life style|Is he the fellow who has the Columbia 8.7? Michael Casling ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 10:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] cruising life style Michael wrote: Cruising after 60 with money to live on is quite possible and realistic. Michael Casling I've a friend who at 75 singlehanded to Europe and had a great time of it (from Florida), so there's even hope for us old timers ;o)... Follow your dreams as long as they're worth following! Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Mi Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2230|2227|2003-10-01 18:06:38|Michael Casling|Re: Michael's 28 foot tug design?|Bert, I am not the one that wants to build the tug. It is the fellow whose post I was replying to, and I have deleted that post from my sent box. He has four teenages and works with heavy horses. On the horse subject we donated our large black horse to the RCMP last year and she is now standing on guard for thee in the Ottawa area. We have a Tanzer 8.5 sailboat. It is a solid fiberglass construction, bought new in 1979. It is small enough to take to the ocean and big enough to go anywhere. I agree with Brent when he said to use the smallest boat that will suit your needs, not the largest. I would also like to see plans for a 28 foot tug. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Michael's 28 foot tug design? Michael Casling wrote: My plan right now is to build a decent small boat (28 ft Tug) that I can weekend cruise on the Lakes, Canals and rivers of the Northeast United States. Hey Michael, have you found any plans that excite you yet? Bert Eggers...Saginaw, Mi Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2231|2231|2003-10-02 09:53:07|Phil S.|Orgami Tug|Hey gang: I am working on the plans when I can. I based them on Al Sorensons(sp) "Fred Murphy" design. I am just eliminating the framing. Right now I am doing the calculations to see how thick a hull material I can use, with going way over on displacement. I am also deepening the hull just a little to allow for steel topsides instead of the dead vegetable material. I love working with wood but I don't want it on my boat. Because the weather sucks like 80% of the time here I want a tough, safe, seaworthy craft. If the weather (like it is on most weekends here) is bad I will still want to go play. Also with all of the rocks in the Thousand Islands I want as thick a hull as possible. Instead of a completely open deck, I am planning on having a sturdy awning frame. I will still have tug like bits and other hardware. I have the 3d Model just about done. I will try to complete it this weekend. IF I get to use MY computer. Thanks Phil|
2232|2220|2003-10-02 10:34:01|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: G55 construction details|In conventional origami construction, the conic sections in the bow have their apexes near the forward end of the chines. As a result, the conics flatten towards the bow, allowing only modest curvature in the bow sections, much of this above the waterline. This was not what we wanted for the G55. Modern bows combine straight stems and increasing curvature in section towards the bow. This curvature is concentrated below the waterline. By adding multiple chines to an origami hull, we were able to change the standard origami conic bow development so that it allowed for a new way of developing the origami bows. The basic idea is that we have been able to reverse the direction of one of the cones in the bow, so that its apex is ahead of the bow and below the waterline. Because a cone is most curved towards the apex, by moving an apex ahead of the bow and below the waterline we have been able to increase the curvature of the sections towards the bow and below the waterline, whereas in conventional origami boats these sections flatten towards the bows. The net effect is that by moving the point of maximum curvature in section forward and below the waterline, reserve buoyancy is concentrated in the point at which it will do the most good. In this way the G55 duplicates closely the design of modern bows. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ps: For the technically inclined, here is a more complete explanation: Think of one side of a single chine origami hull. There is a single cone radiating forward from the chine end to form the bow. In a 2 chine boat there are two cones radiating forward from each of the chine ends. Between these two cones is a cone radiating aft, with its apex near the point where the two cones from the chine ends intersect at the bow. By controlling the location of the chines, and shape of the bows, the location of this apex can be controlled, allowing us to determine the point of maximum curvature in section in the bows. The minimum number of chines required to accomplish this is two. It is physically impossible in a single chine boat. We use three chines in the G55, because this allows us to move the point of maximum curvature further below the waterline. In a 2 chine hull the point of maximum curvature is higher, because the two chines are higher than the bottom two chines on a 3 chine hull. Multi-chine construction requires only a very small percentage increase in the total effort to build a boat. The only real complication is in the design, which is why we use computers. One of the advantage of multi-chine development is that it allows a flexibility in creating hull shapes that are simply not possible in single chine construction. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2233|274|2003-10-02 15:38:53|richytill|Re: spray foam fires?|I just had ANTA from Vancouver BC (www.sprayedinsulatin.com or (604) 328-9337) do my foaming: they claim that the foam they use will not burn (self extinguishing)and is very water-proof. They used the 2.2 lbs foam as opposed to the 1.7 lb product. At 30 lbs psi a 3" deck beam 10' long has about 1000 lbs adhesion to the hull. You can shoulder check the bulkheads to realise how solid the bond to the hull is. Hard to believe how strong this foam is. Warm and quiet here, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Barnard" wrote: > > National Fisherman did an article about a year ago relating to the fire > > dangers of spray- in foam. Most of this is polyurethane and once > > it catches > > on fire it is nearly impossible to put out. It is still being > > used but the > > Coast Guard is looking seriously at not allowing it on inspected vessels. > > It may be worth looking at more fire resistant alternatives. Fire is still > > one of the leading causes of death among the Alaskan fishing fleet. > > Thanks for the tip! An excellent cite- do you happen to know the issue date? > I'd like to pick up a back copy and spread the word around. > > In a brief search, I found that the Flexible Products Co. (makers of "Great > Stuff" canned spray foam, available in hardware stores) makes a product > called "Froth-Pak" that is fire retardant. A quote from the web page: > > "Question: Is the Froth-Pak fire-retardant? > > Answer: The 25FS version of the Froth-Pak (available in the 180 and larger > kits) is considered to be fire retardant. It will burn if exposed to open > flame, but it is self-extinguishing when the source is removed." > > I guess that wood or fabric could fall into that category, as well. I can > see that loose wiring could rub and short itself, and when in direct contact > with the foam, start a fire that way. I was planning on running standard > plastic conduit, and foaming that into place. > > ___________________________ > Doug Barnard > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > "Fiesta Bimbo" > trawler-crawler wannabe |
2234|274|2003-10-02 16:15:28|jumpaltair|Re: spray foam fires?|Rich, I'm just trying to get a hold on some pricing, would you give me an idea as to what the approx pricing of this quality foaming costs...and for what size boat. Peter Vancouver, BC --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > I just had ANTA from Vancouver BC (www.sprayedinsulatin.com or (604) > 328-9337) do my foaming: they claim that the foam they use will not > burn (self extinguishing)and is very water-proof. They used the 2.2 > lbs foam as opposed to the 1.7 lb product. At 30 lbs psi a 3" deck > beam 10' long has about 1000 lbs adhesion to the hull. You can > shoulder check the bulkheads to realise how solid the bond to the > hull is. Hard to believe how strong this foam is. Warm and quiet > here, rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Barnard" > wrote: > > > National Fisherman did an article about a year ago relating to > the fire > > > dangers of spray- in foam. Most of this is polyurethane and once > > > it catches > > > on fire it is nearly impossible to put out. It is still being > > > used but the > > > Coast Guard is looking seriously at not allowing it on inspected > vessels. > > > It may be worth looking at more fire resistant alternatives. Fire > is still > > > one of the leading causes of death among the Alaskan fishing > fleet. > > > > Thanks for the tip! An excellent cite- do you happen to know the > issue date? > > I'd like to pick up a back copy and spread the word around. > > > > In a brief search, I found that the Flexible Products Co. (makers > of "Great > > Stuff" canned spray foam, available in hardware stores) makes a > product > > called "Froth-Pak" that is fire retardant. A quote from the web > page: > > > > "Question: Is the Froth-Pak fire-retardant? > > > > Answer: The 25FS version of the Froth-Pak (available in the 180 and > larger > > kits) is considered to be fire retardant. It will burn if exposed > to open > > flame, but it is self-extinguishing when the source is removed." > > > > I guess that wood or fabric could fall into that category, as well. > I can > > see that loose wiring could rub and short itself, and when in > direct contact > > with the foam, start a fire that way. I was planning on running > standard > > plastic conduit, and foaming that into place. > > > > ___________________________ > > Doug Barnard > > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > > "Fiesta Bimbo" > > trawler-crawler wannabe |
2235|2220|2003-10-02 17:03:27|brentswain38|Re: G55 construction details|If you want the maximum transverse curve to be below the waterline, you put the maximum curve of the stem below the waterline, regardless of the number of chines. The straight stemmed shapes that modern ocean racers have tend to bury their bows in a head sea and thus tend to be very wet foreward, and take a lot of green water over the foredeck, as they have little reserve buoyancy above the waterline. This is not an important issue with racing boats, but is with cruisers. Having built several multichine hulls, I can say from experience that they have a lot more pitfalls for the first time builder and are more work.They are much easier to screw up. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > In conventional origami construction, the conic sections in the bow have their apexes near the forward end of the chines. As a result, the conics flatten towards the bow, allowing only modest curvature in the bow sections, much of this above the waterline. > > This was not what we wanted for the G55. Modern bows combine straight stems and increasing curvature in section towards the bow. This curvature is concentrated below the waterline. > > By adding multiple chines to an origami hull, we were able to change the standard origami conic bow development so that it allowed for a new way of developing the origami bows. > > The basic idea is that we have been able to reverse the direction of one of the cones in the bow, so that its apex is ahead of the bow and below the waterline. Because a cone is most curved towards the apex, by moving an apex ahead of the bow and below the waterline we have been able to increase the curvature of the sections towards the bow and below the waterline, whereas in conventional origami boats these sections flatten towards the bows. > > The net effect is that by moving the point of maximum curvature in section forward and below the waterline, reserve buoyancy is concentrated in the point at which it will do the most good. In this way the G55 duplicates closely the design of modern bows. > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ps: For the technically inclined, here is a more complete explanation: > > Think of one side of a single chine origami hull. There is a single cone radiating forward from the chine end to form the bow. In a 2 chine boat there are two cones radiating forward from each of the chine ends. Between these two cones is a cone radiating aft, with its apex near the point where the two cones from the chine ends intersect at the bow. By controlling the location of the chines, and shape of the bows, the location of this apex can be controlled, allowing us to determine the point of maximum curvature in section in the bows. The minimum number of chines required to accomplish this is two. It is physically impossible in a single chine boat. We use three chines in the G55, because this allows us to move the point of maximum curvature further below the waterline. In a 2 chine hull the point of maximum curvature is higher, because the two chines are higher than the bottom two chines on a 3 chine hull. > > Multi-chine construction requires only a very small percentage increase in the total effort to build a boat. The only real complication is in the design, which is why we use computers. One of the advantage of multi-chine development is that it allows a flexibility in creating hull shapes that are simply not possible in single chine construction. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2236|274|2003-10-02 17:08:42|brentswain38|Re: spray foam fires?|A friend had a foam fire aboard his boat which gutted it aft. foreward where it was painted with cheap latex paint, it refused to burn despite intense heat. There are also intumescent paints available which foam up and prevent heat from reaching the sprayfoam. They are not expensive. When you take the flame away, the foam goes out. This isn't always the case and many people have gained a false sense of security from such experiments, only to have a big surprise fire later. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > I just had ANTA from Vancouver BC (www.sprayedinsulatin.com or (604) > 328-9337) do my foaming: they claim that the foam they use will not > burn (self extinguishing)and is very water-proof. They used the 2.2 > lbs foam as opposed to the 1.7 lb product. At 30 lbs psi a 3" deck > beam 10' long has about 1000 lbs adhesion to the hull. You can > shoulder check the bulkheads to realise how solid the bond to the > hull is. Hard to believe how strong this foam is. Warm and quiet > here, rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Barnard" > wrote: > > > National Fisherman did an article about a year ago relating to > the fire > > > dangers of spray- in foam. Most of this is polyurethane and once > > > it catches > > > on fire it is nearly impossible to put out. It is still being > > > used but the > > > Coast Guard is looking seriously at not allowing it on inspected > vessels. > > > It may be worth looking at more fire resistant alternatives. Fire > is still > > > one of the leading causes of death among the Alaskan fishing > fleet. > > > > Thanks for the tip! An excellent cite- do you happen to know the > issue date? > > I'd like to pick up a back copy and spread the word around. > > > > In a brief search, I found that the Flexible Products Co. (makers > of "Great > > Stuff" canned spray foam, available in hardware stores) makes a > product > > called "Froth-Pak" that is fire retardant. A quote from the web > page: > > > > "Question: Is the Froth-Pak fire-retardant? > > > > Answer: The 25FS version of the Froth-Pak (available in the 180 and > larger > > kits) is considered to be fire retardant. It will burn if exposed > to open > > flame, but it is self-extinguishing when the source is removed." > > > > I guess that wood or fabric could fall into that category, as well. > I can > > see that loose wiring could rub and short itself, and when in > direct contact > > with the foam, start a fire that way. I was planning on running > standard > > plastic conduit, and foaming that into place. > > > > ___________________________ > > Doug Barnard > > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > > "Fiesta Bimbo" > > trawler-crawler wannabe |
2237|2220|2003-10-02 17:49:56|Phillip Allen|Book|Brentswain...I would like to order your book (considering building 36-40 footer as liveaboard). I've never built a boat before but believe a lifetime of general construction qualifies me to follow instructions/plans. I understand the book would be the obvious place to start for me. Money order or check? address? Thanks, Phillip Allen in NW Arkansas --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2238|2220|2003-10-02 18:20:57|Mark K|Re: G55 construction details|I must say I find the discussions between Brent and Greg facinating and very informative. I understand just enough about boat design to be able to follow them. Their approaches to boat design and the application of the origami paradigm are different enough to expose many of the whys and hows behind what would otherwise be some curves on a plan or a nice looking boat in the water. - Mark K|
2239|2239|2003-10-02 19:07:31|Mark K|A bit of heresy|How about mating a plywood deck and cabin to a steel hull? I realise that this in not commonly done as most boats are either one thing or the other, but I would think that you could get some of the best of both materials this way. I recognize that one would be giving up the monolithic quality of a welded all metal hull, but with a carefully designed hull to deck joint how much would one be giving up? I have to confess since I haven't built a boat this is all speculation on my part. Using a stitch and glue construction technique constructing simple panel shapes in plywood is not difficult. The plywood structure might be lighter than steel. I don't know the scantlings for either material but I think that .1" of steel weighs about the same as 1.25" of plywood. With the stiffness of plywood the deck would require less supporting structure simplifying construction and reducing weight. Plywood is a better insulator than steel. Plywood might be quieter than steel. Fitting out the interior could be easier with plywood. With all the plywood above the waterline, issues of rot, leakage and impact damage would be minimized. Opinions? Mark K|
2240|274|2003-10-02 19:34:07|richytill|Re: spray foam fires?|Despite the claims of the foamers, I went ahead and coated all the foam with latex soon after they left. Liquidation World has a good selection of light colours at very reasonable prices. One other thing Brent, your suggestion of welding corners with stainless has paid off. I went over all outside corners and welded on 309 ss. Three times now, metal edges on carelessly moored dingies have bashed off the paint around the outside corners of the transom, no rust. Gives some lead time to do touch-up. Thanx for the tip, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A friend had a foam fire aboard his boat which gutted it aft. > foreward where it was painted with cheap latex paint, it refused to > burn despite intense heat. There are also intumescent paints > available which foam up and prevent heat from reaching the sprayfoam. > They are not expensive. > When you take the flame away, the foam goes out. This isn't always > the case and many people have gained a false sense of security from > such experiments, only to have a big surprise fire later. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > > I just had ANTA from Vancouver BC (www.sprayedinsulatin.com or > (604) > > 328-9337) do my foaming: they claim that the foam they use will not > > burn (self extinguishing)and is very water-proof. They used the > 2.2 > > lbs foam as opposed to the 1.7 lb product. At 30 lbs psi a 3" deck > > beam 10' long has about 1000 lbs adhesion to the hull. You can > > shoulder check the bulkheads to realise how solid the bond to the > > hull is. Hard to believe how strong this foam is. Warm and quiet > > here, rt > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Barnard" > > > wrote: > > > > National Fisherman did an article about a year ago relating to > > the fire > > > > dangers of spray- in foam. Most of this is polyurethane and once > > > > it catches > > > > on fire it is nearly impossible to put out. It is still being > > > > used but the > > > > Coast Guard is looking seriously at not allowing it on > inspected > > vessels. > > > > It may be worth looking at more fire resistant alternatives. > Fire > > is still > > > > one of the leading causes of death among the Alaskan fishing > > fleet. > > > > > > Thanks for the tip! An excellent cite- do you happen to know the > > issue date? > > > I'd like to pick up a back copy and spread the word around. > > > > > > In a brief search, I found that the Flexible Products Co. (makers > > of "Great > > > Stuff" canned spray foam, available in hardware stores) makes a > > product > > > called "Froth-Pak" that is fire retardant. A quote from the web > > page: > > > > > > "Question: Is the Froth-Pak fire-retardant? > > > > > > Answer: The 25FS version of the Froth-Pak (available in the 180 > and > > larger > > > kits) is considered to be fire retardant. It will burn if exposed > > to open > > > flame, but it is self-extinguishing when the source is removed." > > > > > > I guess that wood or fabric could fall into that category, as > well. > > I can > > > see that loose wiring could rub and short itself, and when in > > direct contact > > > with the foam, start a fire that way. I was planning on running > > standard > > > plastic conduit, and foaming that into place. > > > > > > ___________________________ > > > Doug Barnard > > > rebuilding a 20' Skipjack > > > "Fiesta Bimbo" > > > trawler-crawler wannabe |
2241|2239|2003-10-02 21:41:13|Don Taylor|Re: A bit of heresy|Plywood decks on a steel boat? Don't do it. We own a Colvin Gazelle with a plywood cabin top - which is a lot simpler structure to attach to a steel hull than a plywood deck. The plywood cabin top to steel cabin side joint has been a major problem. Right now, the forward cabin roof is detached and jacked up while I weld in patches for the rusted-out steel that was attached to the plywood. It has not been a happy experience. Wood, steel and salt-water are not good companions. I think that I can come up with a better joint than currently exists, but I wish that I could afford the additional weight of a steel roof. I cannot, so I will reinstall the existing roof - if it still fits... Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > How about mating a plywood deck and cabin to a steel hull? I realise > that this in not commonly done as most boats are either one thing or > the other, but I would think that you could get some of the best of > both materials this way. I recognize that one would be giving up the > monolithic quality of a welded all metal hull, but with a carefully > designed hull to deck joint how much would one be giving up? I have > to confess since I haven't built a boat this is all speculation on my > part. > > Using a stitch and glue construction technique constructing simple > panel shapes in plywood is not difficult. > The plywood structure might be lighter than steel. I don't know the > scantlings for either material but I think that .1" of steel weighs > about the same as 1.25" of plywood. > With the stiffness of plywood the deck would require less supporting > structure simplifying construction and reducing weight. > Plywood is a better insulator than steel. > Plywood might be quieter than steel. > Fitting out the interior could be easier with plywood. > With all the plywood above the waterline, issues of rot, leakage and > impact damage would be minimized. > > Opinions? > > Mark K |
2242|2242|2003-10-03 06:06:11|bahadiregi|aplication details for plywood deck on steel boat|On my 36 feet steel boat project, I am planning to decrease deck weight using plywood sheets screwed from under side of " L " type steel deck beams .Most important point is not to allow contact between bare wood and steel.I am planning to cover with epoxy top of the steel deck beams and plywood.Along the sheer line of boat where plywood deck touches I will weld a steel bar (5mm x 100mm) horizontally .First 6mm plywood will touch only side wall(butt joint) of the steel bar,second 6mm plywood will cover this buttjoint up to hull. The left 1mm space between steel bar and second plywood will be filled automative type slicon sealant(it is used to fix glasses on cars)so this sealing joint will have enough flexibility against twisting loads on the sheer line and acts as a corosion preventive seal.Second plywood can be screwed under of first one,between plywood sheets epoxy has been used.After covering second plywood ,surface can be covered with fiberglass,the corner where fiberglass cloth touches to steel hull can be filled using some epoxy putty so fiberglass cloth can continue up to welded steel pipe (toe rail)so waterproof deck and corosion free deck joint can be achieved.If you use 400gr/m2 rowing for fiberglass cloth also you can provide antiskid deck surface (because epoxxy can not fill all the grids of the cloth). Ofcourse building steel deck is more easy,cheap and faster but with plywood deck we can save at least half weight of steel deck(more than 350 kg on 36 feet boat) Regards,|
2243|2243|2003-10-03 06:14:19|Alex and Kim Christie|Hull for sale|I am forwarding information about a hull for sale from Richard Wilford: ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Wilford To: Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 1:36 PM Subject: Hull for sale The following Swain hull is for sale due to various life changes. 36 foot raised pilot house fin keel.P/H is slightly higher than the norm giving a very nice look to the design. With the exception of some minor welding of a couple of pilot house beams all hull welding is done. The hull has been professionally constructed. The rudder is complete except for the bottom plate. Included with the hull are the following: Marinised 44hp. mercedes diesel. (See From a bare hull by Ferenc Mate') with Borg Warner 2:1 transmission. 40 feet of schedule 40 aluminum pipe for mast. An excellent diy series of articles from Pacific Yachting on all aspects of homemade mast construction is available from them for a small fee. I have some of the articles. Baby blake toilet, (a classic!), with service manual and parts list. 700lbs lead ingots. Cutting torch, hoses and gauges. approx 250 lbs welding rod miscellaneous stainless steel items, including mast box/step, and shaft log tube. The hull is located near Parksville on Vancouver Island. I'll be able to show interested parties during the latter part of October as I'm away 'til then. Asking price for the lot is C$16,000.00. Miscellaneous items will not be sold seperately. Please address serious queries only to Swain4sale@.... |
2244|2239|2003-10-03 06:14:19|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: A bit of heresy|Regarding the use of plywood for decks and cabin tops: Topper Hermanson Boatbuilding has an article on their excellent website regarding shedding weight on steel boats, and details how they mate a cold molded coachroof to a steel hull: http://www.thboats.com/pages/shedwate.html ). Note -- they custom cold-molded their top, instead of using a single piece of plywood. This makes sense, for all plywood these days has to be looked at very carefully for quality. The layers of epoxy essentially plasticizes the wood. Brent doesn't recommend the mixing of metal and wood, nor do his designs need it if built to his plans, and the strength benefits of keeping the boat monolithic are obvious. But if you had to do it, follow the advice of people like Topper Hermanson to the letter, as they have a lot of experience. The biggest mistakes people make with plywood on boats are the improper coating of the overall surface, scanty edge-sealing, and poor bedding of attachements (grab-rails, sheet traveller, cleats, etc). Unlike a steel boat, where grab-rails and cleats can be welded down to the roof-top, the same items bolted to a wooden top may eventually loosen under load. Even on wooden boats where a cleat has been properly bedded, I have seen tell-tale signs of weepage around the bolt heads inside the cabin (if the cleat is never used, then such occurrence is more rare, but if you aren't using the cleat, then maybe it was never needed to begin with). It is a normal course of maintenance on all wooden boats to re-bed such fittings as needed, but most boat owners ignore this and are plagued by weepy fittings. Woe-betide such a boat-owner who hides the inside bolt-heads behind a panel where they cannot be monitored! To have plywood on the horizontal surface of the deck, where water swills around alot, seems to be inviting problems, especially where the ply edge meets the raised steel bulwark, with different rates of expansion of these dissimilar materials. Even though potentially mediated by a flexible adhesive, such movement may eventually allow water to find its way inside the layers of the plywood and cause rot in even the most expensive of plywoods. Alex|
2245|2245|2003-10-03 09:35:23|Don Taylor|Plywood cabin tops on a steel boat|I thought that I should post some more details about my cabin top to cabin wall joint failure. Maybe somebody will have a brilliant idea that I can steal. First of all a picture that I took before I started patching: http://tinyurl.com/pkie or http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sFZ9P- y2CDVPxisULviYWfEXBcFH5jCfj6Go1p53dET5-4FtB78UR1EtmPo- LerDy9pilyljWRWNvdYUUzGOcyh6pd2cWhI6aqeQag/SchoonerPilger/RustOnCabinJ oint.jpg This sort of damage was all the way around the cabin wall tops. In many cases it was worse than this. It has been a pretty tedious job to fix, but the worst aspect of it is that I had to destroy the interior of the boat to get at the steel. This is how the original roof was constructed: http://tinyurl.com/pkl9 or http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wGR9P6ksGwjUeEo6woMgcL- 8B9ErbwmlUMtcG4XxLxIb2Cm-wbPh99d8C4Fi3vK21CPJDC2CNc8u5UpDvE_3zw0gzA- xO- qFa3s57w/SchoonerPilger/SketchOfCabinTopConstructionAndFastening.jpg The problems that I have observed include: 1) There is no channel or drip edge to stop water running down the cabin roof, under the roof-edge and settling into the joint. This was called for in the original design. 2) The luting material (maybe black polysulphide) was very thin and had been squeezed out before it set up. 3) The original fastenings were on 12" centres and obviously the roof leaked from day one. The DPO (damn previous owner) and builder then drilled through the roof and the steel boundary bar to through bolt additional screws at 4" intervals. 4) The washers and nuts on the underside of the boundary bar cracked the paint and destroyed the coating just where water could seep in. The wooden cabin top is in very good condition except for some damage where I removed the screws (which was not an easy job). Right now I am patching in new sections of steel. I have not yet made my final decision on how to re-roof, but this is what I have in mind: http://tinyurl.com/pkpr or http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wGR9P0FLIX3UeEo63RB3ylP64kWasc9wvFERXXSIy SBp3vxtK4P4k4F_xrJiryXrhW- uQKEez4VPk0RwQbyAwodW8Qh3mVxI1p9F8g/SchoonerPilger/SketchOfNewFastenin gRegime.jpg The features that I like about this technique: 1) The bolts are welded up through the boundary bar and are captive. I can paint over the bolts and the boundary bar. 2) The aluminium (or s/s) flatbar on top of the roof clamps the roof to the cabin. This idea came from a discussion with Richard from S/V Orbit - he felt that his counter-sunk machine screws may have simply pulled through the plywood when the cabin top flexed under the weight of water from the rogue wave. It also to serves to spread the compression from the bolts and hopefully give a better seal. 3) I am not relying simply on luting to seal the joint - I will use a solid neoprene gasket that is bedded in luting. The roof is heavy and difficult to control when lowering it - I would squeeze out too much luting if that was all there was between the wood and the steel. 4) There is a rain channel. 5) It is removable without destroying the interior of the boat. Removing the rain channel exposes all of the nuts holding the roof down. 6) It allows me to re-use my existing roof. The features I don't like: 1) It is still wood and steel together. 2) It is complicated and laborious - but not as laborious as making a new roof. 3) I am not 100% sure about the gasket. I have a 1/4" thick UV resistant solid neoprene gasket, and the gasket itself will not be exposed to light except at one edge which I might cover in luting that can be be replaced. Exposure tests so far have been good. I welcome any comments, suggestions, ideas. Don. PS. Many of you will say: just put a steel roof on 'er. My rough calculations[*] yield a weight gain of about 700 lbs if I do that, and this weight gain would be up high. [*] Based on these numbers: 1 cu. ft. weight: plywood 38.4lbs, steel 495 lbs. A steel roof will weigh in at about an additional 2lbs/ sq. ft. I have about 350sq. ft of cabin top.|
2246|2245|2003-10-03 09:40:03|Don Taylor|Re: Plywood cabin tops on a steel boat|Aargh! My TinyURL links to the photo and sketches seem to have been foxed. Sorry about that, you can find them in the Files section under the folder "SchoonerPilger". Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Taylor" wrote: > I thought that I should post some more details about my cabin top to > cabin wall joint failure. Maybe somebody will have a brilliant idea > that I can steal. > > First of all a picture that I took before I started patching: |
2247|2239|2003-10-03 15:11:40|brentswain38|Re: A bit of heresy|Attaching wood anywhere on the outside of a steel boat where it is exposd to the elements is a big mistake.It destroys the monolithic integrity and watertightness of a boat, which is why we go for a steel boat in the first place. All wood decks and cabitops leak eventually regardles of how they are done.Regardles of the weather , with an all steel boat you know your bunk will be dry at the end of the day, which is not the case if you rely on dead vegitation to keep the water out. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Regarding the use of plywood for decks and cabin tops: > > Topper Hermanson Boatbuilding has an article on their excellent website > regarding shedding weight on steel boats, and details how they mate a cold > molded coachroof to a steel hull: > http://www.thboats.com/pages/shedwate.html ). Note -- they custom > cold-molded their top, instead of using a single piece of plywood. This > makes sense, for all plywood these days has to be looked at very carefully > for quality. The layers of epoxy essentially plasticizes the wood. Brent > doesn't recommend the mixing of metal and wood, nor do his designs need it > if built to his plans, and the strength benefits of keeping the boat > monolithic are obvious. But if you had to do it, follow the advice of people > like Topper Hermanson to the letter, as they have a lot of experience. The > biggest mistakes people make with plywood on boats are the improper coating > of the overall surface, scanty edge-sealing, and poor bedding of > attachements (grab-rails, sheet traveller, cleats, etc). Unlike a steel > boat, where grab-rails and cleats can be welded down to the roof- top, the > same items bolted to a wooden top may eventually loosen under load. Even on > wooden boats where a cleat has been properly bedded, I have seen tell-tale > signs of weepage around the bolt heads inside the cabin (if the cleat is > never used, then such occurrence is more rare, but if you aren't using the > cleat, then maybe it was never needed to begin with). It is a normal course > of maintenance on all wooden boats to re-bed such fittings as needed, but > most boat owners ignore this and are plagued by weepy fittings. Woe-betide > such a boat-owner who hides the inside bolt-heads behind a panel where they > cannot be monitored! > > To have plywood on the horizontal surface of the deck, where water swills > around alot, seems to be inviting problems, especially where the ply edge > meets the raised steel bulwark, with different rates of expansion of these > dissimilar materials. Even though potentially mediated by a flexible > adhesive, such movement may eventually allow water to find its way inside > the layers of the plywood and cause rot in even the most expensive of > plywoods. > > Alex |
2248|2239|2003-10-03 17:16:43|richytill|Re: A bit of heresy|This is not a suggestion--it is a point of discussion. A few years ago we were asked to lighten the above deck portion of a certain type of naval vessels. We prefabed the deck-house etc. and then welded it onto a transition bar that was welded to the hull. The bar has aluminium on the topside, steel beneath. The two components are pre made by rolling the steel and aluminum into each other. This is waterproof all-welded construction with complete structural integrity. No problems. I would not do this--it costs too much. On the other hand it suits working vessels where the aluminum deck etc. can be abused without risk of corrosion and all the fittings can be welded on. The increase in stability may be worth the effort on some boats. You still have the problem of expensive welding equipment and building a shelter. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Attaching wood anywhere on the outside of a steel boat where it is > exposd to the elements is a big mistake.It destroys the monolithic > integrity and watertightness of a boat, which is why we go for a > steel boat in the first place. All wood decks and cabitops leak > eventually regardles of how they are done.Regardles of the weather , > with an all steel boat you know your bunk will be dry at the end of > the day, which is not the case if you rely on dead vegitation to keep > the water out. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" > wrote: > > Regarding the use of plywood for decks and cabin tops: > > > > Topper Hermanson Boatbuilding has an article on their excellent > website > > regarding shedding weight on steel boats, and details how they mate > a cold > > molded coachroof to a steel hull: > > http://www.thboats.com/pages/shedwate.html ). Note -- they > custom > > cold-molded their top, instead of using a single piece of plywood. > This > > makes sense, for all plywood these days has to be looked at very > carefully > > for quality. The layers of epoxy essentially plasticizes the > wood. Brent > > doesn't recommend the mixing of metal and wood, nor do his designs > need it > > if built to his plans, and the strength benefits of keeping the boat > > monolithic are obvious. But if you had to do it, follow the advice > of people > > like Topper Hermanson to the letter, as they have a lot of > experience. The > > biggest mistakes people make with plywood on boats are the improper > coating > > of the overall surface, scanty edge-sealing, and poor bedding of > > attachements (grab-rails, sheet traveller, cleats, etc). Unlike a > steel > > boat, where grab-rails and cleats can be welded down to the roof- > top, the > > same items bolted to a wooden top may eventually loosen under > load. Even on > > wooden boats where a cleat has been properly bedded, I have seen > tell-tale > > signs of weepage around the bolt heads inside the cabin (if the > cleat is > > never used, then such occurrence is more rare, but if you aren't > using the > > cleat, then maybe it was never needed to begin with). It is a > normal course > > of maintenance on all wooden boats to re-bed such fittings as > needed, but > > most boat owners ignore this and are plagued by weepy fittings. > Woe-betide > > such a boat-owner who hides the inside bolt-heads behind a panel > where they > > cannot be monitored! > > > > To have plywood on the horizontal surface of the deck, where water > swills > > around alot, seems to be inviting problems, especially where the > ply edge > > meets the raised steel bulwark, with different rates of expansion > of these > > dissimilar materials. Even though potentially mediated by a > flexible > > adhesive, such movement may eventually allow water to find its way > inside > > the layers of the plywood and cause rot in even the most expensive > of > > plywoods. > > > > Alex |
2249|2220|2003-10-03 18:17:25|info@easysoftwareinc.com|G55 construction details|Here is a simple demonstration: take a piece of 8.5 x 11" 20 lb printer or photocopier paper. something with a bit of body to it. hold it in with the long axis vertical. make a horizontal cut in the right side, half way across the paper, so you have something that looks like this: ----------------------------------------- | | | | | | | | | | | -----------------------| | | | | | | | | ----------------------------------------- overlap the cut edges of the slit in a triangle, about 2" on the end, to form a cone. tape in place. notice the curve on the left side of the paper. you will have limited ability to modify this curve by pulling on the paper, without causing buckles or bulges elsewhere in the paper. this is a single chine bow. Now take a second piece of. again hold it in long axis vertical, but this time make two horizontal cuts in the right side, space evenly 1/3 and 2/3 down the paper, half way across the paper, so you have something that looks like a fat "E". like this: ----------------------------------------- | | | | | | | -----------------------| | | | | | | | -----------------------| | | | | | | ----------------------------------------- overlap the ends of the top and button slits about 1" to form two cones. tape in place. this is a two chine bow. notice there is a spot of higher curvature on the left side of the paper between the curves formed by the two cones. gently rock the two cones relative to each. You can move this point of maximum curvature up and down the left edge of the paper. this simple device shows how multi-chine construction allows us to control the point of maximum curvature in the bow, independent of stem or centerline shape. this allows the G55 to re-create the high performance bows of modern designs, without having to compromise stem shape, centerline rocker, or deadrise. With an accurate pattern it is no more difficult to add a second chine than the first. It adds a very small fraction to the total time and cost required to complete a boat. When someone says that they had problems with multi-chine construction, they are actually saying the multi-chine pattern they used caused them problems. It is quite possible they simply used a poor pattern. To us, the solution is to build better patterns. If you are going to spend the time, effort, and money to build a boat, often thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars by the time the boat is fully completed, start with a pattern that delivers a great looking hull shape. Because no matter how good a job you do, the boat can look no better than the pattern. If the pattern is rough, it will be reflected in the boat. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2250|2245|2003-10-03 20:23:44|Mark K|Re: Plywood cabin tops on a steel boat|I think the problem may be that the hull flexes slightly under load and the bolts holding the cabin top allow it to float, the result being a small but constant rubbing between the two parts. This would eventually rub through any coating that could be applied to either part. This may be why such joints are so difficult to make work. I think you need either a thick gasket that is resiliant enough to accomodate the relative motion or perhaps a stainless rub strip welded to the flange to take the abrasion. - Markk|
2251|2245|2003-10-04 05:05:59|edward_stoneuk|Re: Plywood cabin tops on a steel boat|Don, Tom Colvin in his book, Steel Boatbuilding Volume 2 page 44, discusses plywood cabin tops. The salient ppoints are drill the holes in the steel boundary bar before sandblasting and painting with primer and barrier coats. Make sure you don't break the barrier coat when fitting the cabin top. Use carriage bolts not countersunk screws. Tighten and using a maul and bronze doller hammer the heads below the surface of the plywood. Cover the heads with epoxy paste, sand smooth, cover the cabin top with epoxy resin and then with fibreglass cloth in epoxy resin. He uses a polysulphide for luting. Wooden window ledges for houses usually have a groove underneath to stop water running back under and into the house. Maybe that would help. Regards, Ted|
2252|2245|2003-10-04 11:53:58|Don Taylor|Re: Plywood cabin tops on a steel boat|Ted: I have Tom's book and have studied this section. I don't think that I can use his techniques to replace an existing roof - his fastening and luting scheme are based on new construction where you are manipulating 1/4" plywood one sheet at a time. Even so, I think that it has some weaknesses. I don't think that carriage bolts have enough bearing surface to prevent the head being torn through a piece of plywood that flexes under big wave impact. This is why I am going to clamp the roof on using continuous flat bar. If you have not read about Orbit's last voyage, then it is well worth visiting: http://www.issumacorp.com/rhudson/orbitlog/OrbitsLastVoyage.htm In particular, the phrase "Part of the cabintop on the forward cabin had separated from the cabin sides" really got me thinking. Even if you sand-blast and coat the boundary bar before bolting on the roof, then the washers and nuts on the through-bolts crack the coating as you tighten them up to seal the roof. I plan to weld the bolts up through the boundary bar before sandblasting and coating. The roof is then tightened down onto the boundary bar. It is pretty hard to avoid squeezing out the luting before it sets, and this leads to a leaking joint. I am going to put a 1/4" thick gasket bedded in luting between the roof and the boundary bar. I plan to make a combination rain catchment, grab-rail and clamping bar cover along the lines of the design in fig. 20 of Volume II of Tom's book. I don't think that I need a drip edge as well because the rain will have been guttered away before it gets to the edge. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Don, > Tom Colvin in his book, Steel Boatbuilding Volume 2 page 44, > discusses plywood cabin tops. The salient ppoints are drill the > holes in the steel boundary bar before sandblasting and painting with > primer and barrier coats. Make sure you don't break the barrier coat > when fitting the cabin top. Use carriage bolts not countersunk > screws. Tighten and using a maul and bronze doller hammer the heads > below the surface of the plywood. Cover the heads with epoxy paste, > sand smooth, cover the cabin top with epoxy resin and then with > fibreglass cloth in epoxy resin. He uses a polysulphide for luting. > > Wooden window ledges for houses usually have a groove underneath to > stop water running back under and into the house. Maybe that would > help. > > Regards, > Ted |
2253|2253|2003-10-04 14:58:59|Alex and Kim Christie|Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat|Has anyone costed out pieces of "DetaCouple" , that explosively-bonded aluminum/steel strip in order to facilitate welding down an aluminum roof? Using such a strip would allow one to build an aluminum roof in one go with no goops and screws. Possibly even come out to weighing not much more, if not the same, as a very thick ply roof (if you want to build it to specs that can take a beating from a roll or rogue wave). Doing aluminum would certainly return the boat to as near a monolithic state as one could ever get without going to steel. I know you aren't considering steel, but if you chose to go with it (just bear with me on this for a moment!), then could you not make up for the increase in tophamper by revising the rig to remove weight aloft? Being on the end of a long lever, you would not need to remove the equivalent amount of weight up high, just enough to return your roll moment back to what it was with the wooden roof. Anyone out there with more naval architecture under their belts than I who could comment on this? Just a thought, as long as the rig weight reduction didn't open up a whole new technological can of worms (ie exotic materials), in which case I'd spring for the strips of DetaCouple and wang down an aluminum roof. Alex|
2254|2253|2003-10-04 19:40:59|Joseph Smith|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat|Topper Hermanson did the exact same thing on the boat he built for himself for a recent trip around Cape Horn. http://www.thboats.com/index.html|
2255|2245|2003-10-04 20:10:53|edward_stoneuk|Re: Plywood cabin tops on a steel boat|Don, Now I reread your previous posts I can see you already knew what I wrote. Sorry about that. In the Gougeons Brothers book on boatbuilding using wood and epoxy they suggest on page 267 that steel can be stuck to wood using the following method. 1 Solvent clean the steel. 2 Coarse sand the steel 3 Apply a thin coat of epoxy and while still wet sand again. 4 Bond with steel or let dry, then lightly abrade, then apply more epoxy and stick on the steel. That said given the size of your cabin top I think I would like to test epoxy bonding of wood to steel on something smaller and less important first. I think I would do the same as you. Regards, Ted|
2256|2253|2003-10-04 21:15:48|Don Taylor|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal?|Alex: Thanks. I have considered DeltaCouple, but whenever I asked about the price the answer has been "you don't really want to know". Well, maybe I do, so perhaps I should find out. Anyway, how can this really work? It is still aluminium bonded to steel so surely the al. will just go poof! in the night and corrode away. I don't really understand how the method of bonding would make a difference - surely you still get a galvanic couple between the two metals? As far as going with a steel roof and then compensating by reducing weight aloft. Hmmm... sounds like carbon fibre to me. Another alternative that I have seen used on a Colvin Gazelle with a steel roof was to lower the ballast (and presumably reduce it's weight) by welding a length of railroad track onto the bottom of the keel. I sailed on this boat, she was not tender and floated to her lines. She did seem to be slow, but managed a solo circum- navigation. (For anyone in BC, this was the "Broomielaw" built and owned by Ron Dick). I have not really thought about this alternative seriously before, but perhaps I could build a box section onto the bottom of the existing keel and pour lead into it as Brett does with his keels. This way I would minimize the additional draft from extending the keel. Right now Pilger floats about 6" below her DWL so this approach could actually reduce her wetted surface. Hmmm... I am not sure that I am ready for such a radical change and I would certainly want advice from a NA first. I don't have the nerve to ask Tom Colvin about this idea as he would probably have a conniption. I dunno, is this a good idea, or a brain f**t? Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Has anyone costed out pieces of "DetaCouple" , that explosively- bonded > aluminum/steel strip in order to facilitate welding down an aluminum roof? > Using such a strip would allow one to build an aluminum roof in one go with > no goops and screws. Possibly even come out to weighing not much more, if > not the same, as a very thick ply roof (if you want to build it to specs > that can take a beating from a roll or rogue wave). Doing aluminum would > certainly return the boat to as near a monolithic state as one could ever > get without going to steel. > > I know you aren't considering steel, but if you chose to go with it (just > bear with me on this for a moment!), then could you not make up for the > increase in tophamper by revising the rig to remove weight aloft? Being on > the end of a long lever, you would not need to remove the equivalent amount > of weight up high, just enough to return your roll moment back to what it > was with the wooden roof. Anyone out there with more naval architecture > under their belts than I who could comment on this? Just a thought, as long > as the rig weight reduction didn't open up a whole new technological can of > worms (ie exotic materials), in which case I'd spring for the strips of > DetaCouple and wang down an aluminum roof. > > Alex |
2257|2253|2003-10-05 02:48:09|lon wells|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat explosion bonded|When I was building the US Navy Frigates which had a steel hull and aluminum house they did use the explosion bonded bi-metallic strip. It is a interesting process worth looking at. http://www.highenergymetals.com/ The earlier Destroyer escorts had a Huck bolt where there was a flange with a rubber strip in between the Aluminum and steel that had mixed results. Sometimes we would replace the Huck bolts and corroded areas with the bi-metallic strip. Lon Don Taylor wrote: Alex: Thanks. I have considered DeltaCouple, but whenever I asked about the price the answer has been "you don't really want to know". Well, maybe I do, so perhaps I should find out. Anyway, how can this really work? It is still aluminium bonded to steel so surely the al. will just go poof! in the night and corrode away. I don't really understand how the method of bonding would make a difference - surely you still get a galvanic couple between the two metals? As far as going with a steel roof and then compensating by reducing weight aloft. Hmmm... sounds like carbon fibre to me. Another alternative that I have seen used on a Colvin Gazelle with a steel roof was to lower the ballast (and presumably reduce it's weight) by welding a length of railroad track onto the bottom of the keel. I sailed on this boat, she was not tender and floated to her lines. She did seem to be slow, but managed a solo circum- navigation. (For anyone in BC, this was the "Broomielaw" built and owned by Ron Dick). I have not really thought about this alternative seriously before, but perhaps I could build a box section onto the bottom of the existing keel and pour lead into it as Brett does with his keels. This way I would minimize the additional draft from extending the keel. Right now Pilger floats about 6" below her DWL so this approach could actually reduce her wetted surface. Hmmm... I am not sure that I am ready for such a radical change and I would certainly want advice from a NA first. I don't have the nerve to ask Tom Colvin about this idea as he would probably have a conniption. I dunno, is this a good idea, or a brain f**t? Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Has anyone costed out pieces of "DetaCouple" , that explosively- bonded > aluminum/steel strip in order to facilitate welding down an aluminum roof? > Using such a strip would allow one to build an aluminum roof in one go with > no goops and screws. Possibly even come out to weighing not much more, if > not the same, as a very thick ply roof (if you want to build it to specs > that can take a beating from a roll or rogue wave). Doing aluminum would > certainly return the boat to as near a monolithic state as one could ever > get without going to steel. > > I know you aren't considering steel, but if you chose to go with it (just > bear with me on this for a moment!), then could you not make up for the > increase in tophamper by revising the rig to remove weight aloft? Being on > the end of a long lever, you would not need to remove the equivalent amount > of weight up high, just enough to return your roll moment back to what it > was with the wooden roof. Anyone out there with more naval architecture > under their belts than I who could comment on this? Just a thought, as long > as the rig weight reduction didn't open up a whole new technological can of > worms (ie exotic materials), in which case I'd spring for the strips of > DetaCouple and wang down an aluminum roof. > > Alex Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2258|2253|2003-10-05 18:06:39|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal?|This pdf file from "Triclad", which makes the explosively bonded alu-metal strips, explains a lot, including specifics on welding to the strip. http://www.triclad.com/pictures/triclad.pdf Their answer to the question of whether the aluminum would corrode away is valid, but their research shows that there is a small amount of aluminum corrosion which builds up a protective layer at the alu-metal interface, which effectively seals out further corrosion. The reason there is no corrosion inside the interface is because no electrolyte can enter that space (having been explosively bonded together, there are no voids). This message from a forum has links for the companies who make the product: http://www.sname.org/forums/feedback/messages/1536.html I still can't dig up a price for this stuff anywhere! Anyone? Alex|
2259|2253|2003-10-05 23:13:50|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal?|Hi ALex, the .pdf file you referred to had this intresting quote: Both the US Navy, and the UK Royal Navy have carried out exhaustive testing of aluminium-steel transition joints in the laboratory, during fabrication, and analysed in service performance. Either are happy that the majority of problems arise from failure to adhere to the simple guidelines given above. Indeed, following the losses of Royal Navy ships in the South Atlantic during the early 1980's, analysis of the damage to ships with aluminium superstructures showed that there were no failures of the transition joints used on these vessels. The myth that aluminium burned was dispelled. In particular, the one ship which was originally cited as an example of the risks of using aluminium in warships, HMS Sheffield, was an all steel ship. Interesting, the alloy didn't burn. We've rearranged our web site somewhat to speed things up for dial-up users, with the addition of some picture viewers. Visitors may have to refresh to see the changes. I'd be interested to hear people's comments. http://www.origamimagic.com Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex and Kim Christie To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal? This pdf file from "Triclad", which makes the explosively bonded alu-metal strips, explains a lot, including specifics on welding to the strip. http://www.triclad.com/pictures/triclad.pdf Their answer to the question of whether the aluminum would corrode away is valid, but their research shows that there is a small amount of aluminum corrosion which builds up a protective layer at the alu-metal interface, which effectively seals out further corrosion. The reason there is no corrosion inside the interface is because no electrolyte can enter that space (having been explosively bonded together, there are no voids). This message from a forum has links for the companies who make the product: http://www.sname.org/forums/feedback/messages/1536.html I still can't dig up a price for this stuff anywhere! Anyone? Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2260|2253|2003-10-05 23:49:05|lon wells|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal?|I don't know about now, but in the early 80's it was a dollar a inch for the 1-1/2" square bars when bought in large quantities. We also bought plates that were bonded they were used for columns. We only had these bars fail when it was a poor fit and the weld contraction would pull the explosion bonding apart. The stuff looks OK for a ship of War or work boat but it would be hard to dress it up for a sailing yacht. Another thought might be flange the cabin foot and bolt the cabin to the hull. Sandblast and epoxy coat the aluminum and steel, place a rubber gasket between and caulk the edge this would allow for cabin removal if the engine ever need to be replaced and it would be alot cheaper and better looking. Lon --- info@... wrote: > Hi ALex, the .pdf file you referred to had this > intresting quote: > > Both the US Navy, and the UK Royal Navy have > carried out exhaustive testing of aluminium-steel > transition joints in the laboratory, during > fabrication, and analysed in service performance. > Either are happy that the majority of problems arise > from failure to adhere to the simple guidelines > given above. Indeed, following the losses of Royal > Navy ships in the South Atlantic during the early > 1980's, analysis of the damage to ships with > aluminium superstructures showed that there were > no failures of the transition joints used on these > vessels. The myth that aluminium burned was > dispelled. In particular, the one ship which was > originally cited as an example of the risks of using > aluminium in warships, HMS Sheffield, was an all > steel ship. > > Interesting, the alloy didn't burn. > > We've rearranged our web site somewhat to speed > things up for dial-up users, with the addition of > some picture viewers. Visitors may have to refresh > to see the changes. I'd be interested to hear > people's comments. > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex and Kim Christie > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum cabin > tops on a steel boat - radical proposal? > > > This pdf file from "Triclad", which makes the > explosively bonded alu-metal > strips, explains a lot, including specifics on > welding to the strip. > http://www.triclad.com/pictures/triclad.pdf > > Their answer to the question of whether the > aluminum would corrode away is > valid, but their research shows that there is a > small amount of aluminum > corrosion which builds up a protective layer at > the alu-metal interface, > which effectively seals out further corrosion. > The reason there is no > corrosion inside the interface is because no > electrolyte can enter that > space (having been explosively bonded together, > there are no voids). > > This message from a forum has links for the > companies who make the product: > > http://www.sname.org/forums/feedback/messages/1536.html > > I still can't dig up a price for this stuff > anywhere! Anyone? > > Alex > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com|
2261|2253|2003-10-06 20:58:18|richytill|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal?|The type of transition bar we used on naval vessels looked like interlocking saw blades rolled together. The seams are void free and give no problems. There is a system of forcing a longditudinally slotted aluminium pipe over a steel round bar but it forms a crevice that begs capillary action and looks like trouble. One can only guess that the stronger and user friendly (easy anti-fouling, stability down low, lower metal prices) steel hull would be complemented by the light wheight, paint free deck surface of aluminum on top. On a yacht, why can't the transition bar be used as a bulwark cap where it remains unseen and protected from corrosion, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, lon wells wrote: > I don't know about now, but in the early 80's it was a > dollar a inch for the 1-1/2" square bars when bought > in large quantities. We also bought plates that were > bonded they were used for columns. We only had these > bars fail when it was a poor fit and the weld > contraction would pull the explosion bonding apart. > > The stuff looks OK for a ship of War or work boat but > it would be hard to dress it up for a sailing yacht. > > Another thought might be flange the cabin foot and > bolt the cabin to the hull. Sandblast and epoxy coat > the aluminum and steel, place a rubber gasket between > and caulk the edge this would allow for cabin removal > if the engine ever need to be replaced and it would be > alot cheaper and better looking. > Lon > > > --- info@e... wrote: > > Hi ALex, the .pdf file you referred to had this > > intresting quote: > > > > Both the US Navy, and the UK Royal Navy have > > carried out exhaustive testing of aluminium-steel > > transition joints in the laboratory, during > > fabrication, and analysed in service performance. > > Either are happy that the majority of problems arise > > from failure to adhere to the simple guidelines > > given above. Indeed, following the losses of Royal > > Navy ships in the South Atlantic during the early > > 1980's, analysis of the damage to ships with > > aluminium superstructures showed that there were > > no failures of the transition joints used on these > > vessels. The myth that aluminium burned was > > dispelled. In particular, the one ship which was > > originally cited as an example of the risks of using > > aluminium in warships, HMS Sheffield, was an all > > steel ship. > > > > Interesting, the alloy didn't burn. > > > > We've rearranged our web site somewhat to speed > > things up for dial-up users, with the addition of > > some picture viewers. Visitors may have to refresh > > to see the changes. I'd be interested to hear > > people's comments. > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Greg Elliott > > Yacht Lazy Bones > > www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Alex and Kim Christie > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 3:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum cabin > > tops on a steel boat - radical proposal? > > > > > > This pdf file from "Triclad", which makes the > > explosively bonded alu-metal > > strips, explains a lot, including specifics on > > welding to the strip. > > http://www.triclad.com/pictures/triclad.pdf > > > > Their answer to the question of whether the > > aluminum would corrode away is > > valid, but their research shows that there is a > > small amount of aluminum > > corrosion which builds up a protective layer at > > the alu-metal interface, > > which effectively seals out further corrosion. > > The reason there is no > > corrosion inside the interface is because no > > electrolyte can enter that > > space (having been explosively bonded together, > > there are no voids). > > > > This message from a forum has links for the > > companies who make the product: > > > > > http://www.sname.org/forums/feedback/messages/1536.html > > > > I still can't dig up a price for this stuff > > anywhere! Anyone? > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search > http://shopping.yahoo.com |
2262|2262|2003-10-07 03:52:37|info@easysoftwareinc.com|displacement power boat hulls|I'm curious about the reasons people would want to build a new tug or trawler hull for a displacement power boat. Both these hulls are optimized for use as work boasts, and when used as pleasure craft they are not optimized. They are optimized for cargo work. Compare the almost wave free wake from a sailboat under power with the sizeable wake thrown by most power boats. This represents wasted energy. Replacing the keel weight with diesel, the Lazy Bones would have a minimum range of about 8000 miles. 16,000 miles at low RPM's. How many 40 foot power boats have a range even a fraction of this amount? Alternatively, this weight could be replaced with fresh water, or more spacious accommodations. Sailboat hulls cannot be converted directly to powerboats, because the center of gravity must be adjusted to minimize roll when the mast is removed. However, once this is done, it seems likely that an easily driven sailboat hull would be a much better choice for a displacement power boat than either a tug or a trawler hull. For an aging population, permanent stairs in a sugar scoop are much easier to board from a dinghy than a ladder alongside. It is a simple fact of biology that many ladies (and men) lack sufficient upper body strength to board via a ladder as they age. Anyone that has ever had to boost people aboard from the dinghy will know what I am talking about. I can see how tugs and trawlers, once they retire from working, might end up as pleasure boats. Sailboats would not, because the ballast is wrong. However, it a sailboat hull was used to create a power boat, with the ballast replaced with fuel and water, and the center of gravity adjusted to allow for the mast to be removed, it would seem that a more easily driven and fuel efficient boat would result. Not only would this be important because of the high price of fuel, it can also significantly increase the range and/or fresh water capacity of the boat. Thus, it you are building a new displacement power boat, wouldn't a sailboat hull be a better starting point than either a tug or trawler hull? Greg Elliott yacht Lazy Bones|
2263|2263|2003-10-07 05:30:32|bahadiregi|home made cam cleats or clutches|Hi everyone, Does any one know how to build home made cam cleats or clutches ?They are too expensive.I have seen some cleats made from PVC pipes but they are not suitable for heavy steel boat. Regards, Bahadýr|
2264|2263|2003-10-07 06:03:59|Phillip Allen|Re: home made cam cleats or clutches|The world is full of answers to these and other questions/needs...just a matter of open thinking. Cam cleats...think old fashioned (rope) fence stretchers. Where would someone have needed to take a strain on rope and hold it while doing something else? I think I'd look at antique store/junk store, not for the actual item but ideas on how to create what I needed. Maybe it doesn't need to be self-actuating but just able to operate easily with the same hand holding the rope (palm/fist pressure). How about the spline on an old transmission, cut into "cookies" then drilled off center to create a cam? Stainless would be better but maybe galvanized? Phillip (stream of consciousness) bahadiregi wrote: Hi everyone, Does any one know how to build home made cam cleats or clutches ?They are too expensive.I have seen some cleats made from PVC pipes but they are not suitable for heavy steel boat. Regards, Bahad�r Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2265|2262|2003-10-07 14:21:38|w2gl|Re: displacement power boat hulls|Greg wrote: > I'm curious about the reasons people would want to build a new tug or trawler hull for a displacement power boat. > > Both these hulls are optimized for use as work boasts, and when used as pleasure craft they are not optimized. They are optimized > for cargo work. > > Compare the almost wave free wake from a sailboat under power with the sizeable wake thrown by most power boats. This represents > wasted energy. > > Replacing the keel weight with diesel, the Lazy Bones would have a minimum range of about 8000 miles. 16,000 miles at low RPM's. > How many 40 foot power boats have a range even a fraction of this amount? Alternatively, this weight could be replaced with fresh > water, or more spacious accommodations. > > Thus, it you are building a new displacement power boat, wouldn't a sailboat hull be a better starting point than either a tug or > trawler hull? I've always liked the looks of a tug, but wouldn't want to own one. The freeboard is a little low, and those beautiful rounded sheer lines are optimized for pushing and ability to steer away from flat surfaces like piers, barges and ship sides. The power on a real tug is way too much without a load to push, pull or tow. A true working trawler is also a work boat, and profit is measured by the catch load carried. I doubt very much that you could make a good fishing boat by converting a pleasure trawler, and vice-versa. The similarity is in the name, not the hull. Sometimes it's better not to reinvent the wheel, or boat type. As you point out, the Trawler is not that efficient, but the subject has been explored. The two best books are Robert Beebe's "Voyaging Under Power" and George Buehler's "The Troller Yacht" or "A Powerboater's Guide To Crossing Oceans Without Getting Wet Or Going Broke". Both stress heavy displacement, low power single screw boats. Buehler makes a case for less beam, and simpler construction. Comparing the wake of an auxiliary to a higher powered motor yacht isn't valid unless you put it into terms of the Froude number or speed length ratio. A sailboat propelled at a speed /length ratio of 1.35 tows about the same wake as a heavy displacement powerboat of the same length. I think wake observations are usually of a sailboat at 1.0 to a powerboat going at 1.3, a huge difference. It is far better to design a power boat from scratch than to convert a sailboat to a power boat. A sailboat usually has a prismatic coefficient selected for least drag in light to moderate air, where a powerboat can be designed to operate at a specific speed. The higher prismatic coefficient makes for more room aboard too! I hope you or someone else designs an Origami Power Yacht, it would fill a need and be very popular. Larry|
2266|2253|2003-10-07 17:32:38|jim_both|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat |A link to google sci.engr.joining.welding thread on explosive welding of bimetal strips, aluminium vrs steel (big boats), and other sundry topics. http://groups.google.com.au/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF- 8&threadm=5401db42.0304081322.160bf1d2% 40posting.google.com&rnum=4&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF- 8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26q%3Dexplosive%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch%26meta% 3Dgroup%253Dsci.engr.joining.welding|
2267|2228|2003-10-07 18:22:15|edward_stoneuk|Re: Brent, clarification...the U's and V's...|Brent, My 36' plans, which I bought at the beginning of 2002 are dated October 29 1988. Is this the same plan that your current boat, with the improved buoyancy, was built to? Would you recommend splitting the stem, which is still only tacked and then welding in a widening piece to give more buoyancy? Regards, Ted|
2268|2268|2003-10-08 11:22:42|Bert|Re: Digest Number 602|Greg Elliot wrote: " However, it a sailboat hull was used to create a power boat, with the ballast replaced with fuel and water, and the center of gravity adjusted to allow for the mast to be removed, it would seem that a more easily driven and fuel efficient boat would result." Greg, help us out here, I have motored with a mastless sail boat and noticed a much quicker motion....is that what you mean by saying the sailboat would be undesireable as it is? And what do you mean by "adjusting" the center of gravity? INteresting comments from you, Bert Eggers...Saginaw|
2269|2269|2003-10-08 12:00:35|prairiemaidca|port size(size does matter)|Hi All; I've been following the discussion on combo material building and for myself I'll stick with the steel through out. What I'm interested in is there any data out there on how big a piece of lexan,plexi,etc etc. can be (1/2inch thick) before it becomes a liablility offshore. Some of the newer production boats are installing every size of port,some that are starting to look like the picture windows in ones home. My pilot house is a little taller and I'm about to cut the holes for the ports. If anyone is interested the reason for a slightly bigger pilot house, it was one thing that a lot of the owners that we have talked to all seemed to think would be an improvement without compromising the design. My first question to anyone who has built anything that I'm cosidering doing is would you do it again, if you could go back, and what would you change? Martin and Betty (Prairi Maid)...|
2270|2270|2003-10-08 15:39:47|John Foster|Aluminum hull rotted by scraps of copper|I sure would like some of the long time aluminum boat builders and aluminum boat users to share with the list some of the housekeeping steps they take to prevent the sort of major damage reported in this article. Palawan VI the Refit Saga Annual Special Issue of Ocean Navigator Issue Number 133 American Yacht Review 2003-2004 Pages 4 thru 12 by Steve C. D'Antonio Boatyard Manager, Zimmerman Marine http://www.zimmermanmarine.com/ Quoting briefly from page 8: .... each time a hatch was removed a microscopic brass-dust snowstorm fell into the bilges. Where aluminum and copper alloys are concerned, a single brass screw falling into an aluminum bilge is analogous to a hot BB being dropped into a stick of butter.......copper alloy gremlins conspired to attack the aluminum hull and tanks.....the source of the rotted tank tops was traced to water leaking from copper plumbing tubing..... Have a nice day John|
2271|2253|2003-10-08 20:47:17|jim_both|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat|Sorry for the dead link in the last post; yahoo doesn't seem to like long hyperlinks. To find this information, go to google groups sci.engr.joining.welding and search for 'Joining steel to aluminum'. Some good posts are there.|
2272|2192|2003-10-09 03:19:28|De Clarke|welding poly|> The best way to weld HDPE it is to use what is known the hot plate/ hot > knife technique,this involves heating a metal plate and placing it between > the faces of the plastic parts to be joined,when you see the edges of the hmmm so you move along the seam doing this? could you use a sailmaker's butane powered hot-knife I wonder? or do you need more BTU than that? > Work the flame over the surfaces to be painted,you will need to see a change > in the surface as the flame just melts the surface,allow to cool and apply > paint. interesting. with UHMW if you play a flame over the surface you get, allegedly, a mirror finish. but with HDPE it roughens it enough to take paint? good to know, maybe I could paint the reg number on my toy boat. > De, you have do very well to mould a PE boat hull do you have a moulding > company? or did you do it at home? no, sorry to disillusion you, this is a prefab (commercial) PE hull. I bought it because it was indestructible and had a basic unstayed catboat rig which seemed good for playing with -- wanted a hull on which I could try out a rig design. never having designed a whole rig before I found it took a very long time and far more materials and design decisions than I had at first imagined... many moments of "what have I got myself into here?" but after several months it is finally coming together and I hope to hoist the new rig and try to sail on it, RSN. > What is the size of the hull? it's a 13 ft sailing dink -- made by Escape (oddly enough I think it's a Hoyt design) -- a screaming yellow bath-tub toy. swing-up daggerboard, swing-up rudder ensures you can ground it w/o much damage. it's unsinkable and hard to capsize. as you might expect from that spec, it's also a dog :-) but the idea is to have fun, not to compete with Lasers. I bought it knowing it was a "learning experience" and it has certainly been that! > I have been designing products using rotomoulding for many years, you have > to change the way things are fixed to the mouldings. yes I understand (vaguely) that the rotomolded form is sort of a monococque, gaining stiffness from the shape of "bubble" chambers molded into it, so you don't want to weaken any of the chamber walls that serve as "beams" inside. my main concern has been attaching hardware on the outside :-) the plastic is so soft that there are almost no strong points, and to attach anything useful like oar locks or a decent transom that accepts standard motor clamps and so forth, you have to do a lot of head scratching. if I could plastic-weld reinforcing plates on here and there, I could have much better attachment points. the weirdest newbie experience I had with this boat was attaching some pad eyes on a warm day. I drilled the first hole and was alarmed when air started whistling out of it! in my experience of normal hulls, when air comes spouting out of one place it means water is coming in someplace else -- so I was alarmed :-) but it turned out it was just the air inside the sealed rotomolded hull, warmed by the sun, escaping when I punched a hole in the outer skin. from then on I tried to do my drilling in cold conditions and sealed every hole with adhesive on the screws thanks to all for the info on how to weld plastic, I will get some samples and try it on the workbench before attacking the hull. de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:|
2273|2268|2003-10-09 09:08:56|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Digest Number 602|Hi Bert, A sailboat without a mast reminds me of piano lessons as a child. The device the instructor placed on the piano with the sliding weight that kept time. The metronome. As the weight was moved down the steel rod, the device sped up. As you have noticed, the same thing happens in a sailboat. Remove the rig and the roll motion of a sailboat can become uncomfortably fast. However, as you remove ballast from the keel, or move weight from the keel towards the deck, this motion will slow. As you move weight higher in the boat (from the keel towards the deck), at some point it will roll very slowly, making it very comfortable. However the trade off is that the boat at this point is unstable, because it is now very slow to roll back upright if tipped to one side by wind or waves - a second wave may result in a capsize. As you continue to move weight even higher the boat will become stable again - upside down. Thus, it is not a good idea to stand up in a small dinghy, especially if it is narrow as in a canoe. This effect can be predicted by an analysis of the distribution of weight in the boat and the buoyancy of the hull form, and will be explained in detail in books on yacht design. In stories of sailing ships in the past, they will make reference to loading of the cargo high or low, to change the roll period of the boat depending on the expected winds on the voyage. Upwind they would load the cargo low to increase their stability under sail. Downwind they would load the cargo high to slow the roll on the boat. regards, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Bert To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Digest Number 602 Greg Elliot wrote: " However, it a sailboat hull was used to create a power boat, with the ballast replaced with fuel and water, and the center of gravity adjusted to allow for the mast to be removed, it would seem that a more easily driven and fuel efficient boat would result." Greg, help us out here, I have motored with a mastless sail boat and noticed a much quicker motion....is that what you mean by saying the sailboat would be undesireable as it is? And what do you mean by "adjusting" the center of gravity? INteresting comments from you, Bert Eggers...Saginaw Yahoo! Groups Sponsor To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2274|2253|2003-10-09 09:08:57|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum cabin tops on a steel boat - radical proposal?|An NZ builder we cruised noted that the "Delta Couple" was too expensive to be used in NZ. He passed along a technique that is also found in "Boat Strengths". Alloy and SS are typically well behaved together. On a steel hull and deck, you can weld a SS flat bar vertically and bolt on an alloy cabin or pilot house with SS bolts and bedding compound. You do not need an insolating gasket or isolation washers. The vertical SS flatbar would tend to minimize leaks. A variation on this technique would be to weld an SS flat bar to the inside of the hull, and bolt on an alloy deck similar to the maner in which FG yachts are constructed. Leaks would be more problematic, as they are on FG yachts at the hull deck joint. However, with countersunk bolts in an alloy extrusion over the deck edge, this could give an attractive finish. A similar strategy could be used to mount ply decks/cabins to steel. Personally I would not recommend ply in a wet climate or the tropics. It is prone to rot even covered with epoxy and FG. The problem is fresh water entering the ply through any bolt or screw hole. I would not recommend using epoxy and FG to waterproof a joint between steel and ply. It would likely delaminate from the motion of the boat. Similarly, I would not recommend using silicone to seal a joint in a boat. Mildew or similar organisms in the tropics eat silicone. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2275|2270|2003-10-09 09:08:59|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Aluminum hull rotted by scraps of copper|On the Lazy Bone (steel) we had a bronze strainer fall into the sump unnoticed, which ate a 3" hole thru the steel. Luckily the area under was part of the keel. Repair required the removal of the engine, and welding of a new plate over the bottom of the sump. Dissimilar metals are a problem on metal boats, and cannot be ignored regardless of hull material. Steel will not show the damage as quickly as alloy, but it is still occurring. The steel will lose strength before it shows much physical damage, which can lead to a false sense of security. Paint, spray foam provide some protection from metal dropped into the bilge. Alloy hulls can be left unpainted inside, which can make them more vulnerable to metal dropped into the bilge. I would recommend spray foaming inside a metal hull. The sump cannot be foamed. On the Bones when I made the repair I welded a 10 lb zinc to the sump on the inside of the hull, which has all but eliminated corrosion in this area. The zinc sits in the low point of the sump, in the salt water that enters through the packing gland. I would recommend this strategy to any metal boat owner. Put a zinc on the inside of the hull in the sump. A zinc in the sump can be a big help if you have an electric bilge pump. The float switch on a popular brand of bilge pump we had developed an electrical leak from fatigue, and luckily we had a zinc in place in the sump which was promptly eaten by electrolysis from the bilge pump. Better the zinc than the steel - or alloy. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com|
2276|274|2003-10-09 09:49:36|Don Taylor|Re: spray foam fires? - Latex paint?|By cheap latex paint, do you mean ordinary household paint as sold in Home Depo and the like? Or, anybody got any brand names for flame proof paint for coating foam. Thanks, Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > A friend had a foam fire aboard his boat which gutted it aft. > foreward where it was painted with cheap latex paint, it refused to |
2277|2277|2003-10-09 12:24:25|Richard Hudson|Re: Digest Number 604 - port size|> I'm interested in is there any data out there on how big a piece of > lexan,plexi,etc etc. can be (1/2inch thick) before it becomes a > liablility offshore. For sizing ports/windows on an offshore vessel, I strongly suggest you consider how big a hole(s) in the boat you could deal with if the windows/ports break. You could go find out the tensile strength of polycarbonate (lexan), and then figure out the force it might have to withstand (the only believeable figure of maximum forces at sea that I've ever heard of is 100 tons per square metre), but after you do that you'll probably decide 1/2" is way too thin :-). On my last boat, I replaced a hatch with a small doghouse, so that the person on watch could sit on the ladder and see outside. The sides of the doghouse were about 20" long and 14" high. They were supported by three pieces of Honduras mahogany laminated together (2.25" total thickness). At the aft (opening) end, 1" stainless steel channel supported the wood and acted as a dropboard channel. 1/2" lexan (polycarbonate) was thru-bolted onto the outside of the wood. The unsupported area of the lexan was about 14" long and 10" high. After the boat rolled over in a storm, the only pieces of the doghouse remaining were the 1" SS channels, which were welded to the steel cabin sides, and badly bent. Also, I saw half of one side piece of the doghouse floating in the water, split roughly diagonally, still securely thru-bolted to the broken wood pieces backing it. Two 7" round opening ports were also broken (among other damage). Due to their small size, they were less of a problem to deal with. The only hatch that did survive the roll was a production (cast?) aluminum hatch with probably 1/4" thick (acrylic or polycarbonate) smoked top, supported by two (or four, i don't remember) aluminum bars. This hatch was about 20"x20", the aluminum frame was very heavy, and the unsupported area under the top was probably about 6" x 18" (or 6" x 9"). This surviving hatch covered the forepeak, which was lower than the cabintop and the bulwarks and probably did not get hit by any spars. I think Don mentioned earlier my story of Orbit's Last Voyage (http://www.issumacorp.com/rhudson/orbitlog/OrbitsLastVoyage.htm), and the technical notes that follow it (http://www.issumacorp.com/rhudson/orbitlog/rolltech.htm). Someday I'm going to get around to putting some drawings up on that site that explain things better. >My first question to > anyone who has built anything that I'm cosidering doing is would > you do it again, if you could go back, and what would you change? To specifically answer your question, no I wouldn't replace a hatch with a doghouse again. A much better way to achieve a dry place for watchkeeping is a sacrificial doghouse (or deckhouse), that permitted entrance to the interior only thru a low-profile, strong, metal hatch or door that only opened in one plane (and a welded cabintop). I see a lot of boats with big windows (I'm currently looking for a boat, or a design), and I immediately think about what happens when the windows are stove in. I am well aware that a great many boats do sail far offshore with big windows/ports, but I don't want to do it, and wouldn't recommend the idea to anyone. Richard > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:00:30 -0000 > From: "prairiemaidca" > Subject: port size(size does matter) > > Hi All; I've been following the discussion on combo material > building and for myself I'll stick with the steel through out. What > I'm interested in is there any data out there on how big a piece of > lexan,plexi,etc etc. can be (1/2inch thick) before it becomes a > liablility offshore. Some of the newer production boats are > installing every size of port,some that are starting to look like the > picture windows in ones home. My pilot house is a little taller and > I'm about to cut the holes for the ports. If anyone is interested the reason for a slightly bigger pilot house, it was one thing that > a > lot of the owners that we have talked to all seemed to think would be > an improvement without compromising the design. My first question to > anyone who has built anything that I'm cosidering doing is would you > do it again, if you could go back, and what would you change? > > Martin and Betty (Prairi Maid)... |
2278|2278|2003-10-09 15:08:38|Alex and Kim Christie|bimetallic alu/cs revisited|Hi all, I've been doing a little research on pricing for "Detacouple" (also confirmed there is no "L" in Detacouple) from Dynamic Metals Corporation, Boulder, CO. For two different thicknesses I've got prices of $24.48 USD and $26.88 USD per linear foot. Read on for details. I didn't know the linear length around the tops of the cabin sides on Don Taylor's Pilger, but I just made a wild guess of 40 linear feet so that Jose Olivas, the rep, could have a number to work with (although I think I over-estimated). This should allow for 20 feet on either side of the cabin and 20 feet extra for all bits in between, with tons left over. The resulting price quote seemed to be not too bad considering this is a permanent (hopefully!) fix and returns the hull to monolithic form: __________________________________________________________________ Thickness Width Unit price USD/ft Total price USD 40 linear feet 1.375" 0.75" $26.88/ft $1,075.20 0.75" 0.75" $24.48/ft $979.20 __________________________________________________________________ If Don only needs, say, 30 feet of the 0.75" thick stuff, then total cost is $734.40. It comes in lengths of 10 to 12 feet, btw. Certainly joining an entire deck to hull with this stuff would be more prohibitive cost-wise but for this specific situation where one is simply joining a new "lid" to the top of the cabin, it sure would make a nice solid fix without any concern for leaking through-bolts several years on. One interesting thing to note is that this material is now made up of three layers, not two, the base layer being carbon steel, the intermediate layer (called the "interlayer") made of aluminum 1100, and the top layer of your choice of 5446 or 5985 alu according to customer preference. Since the bonded metals have different rates of expansion, you should only cut it mechanically (no plasma or gas cutting), and follow exact procedures for welding. Doing a proper job with it doesn't appear to be beyond anyone who can weld carefully, though real proof of this should really come from someone who has actually used it like Topper Hermanson. Alex|
2279|2278|2003-10-09 15:30:19|Joseph Smith|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|I have researched this stuff pretty throughly but I have not found any info explaining specifically how the process of bonding is accomplished. They mention an explosive connection, along with the words detonation. I don't get the impression this stuff is laid down and then welded in a conventional manner. Any thoughts on this?|
2280|2278|2003-10-09 16:01:07|Mark K|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|Did you see this site? http://www.highenergymetals.com/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Smith wrote: > I have researched this stuff pretty throughly but I have not found any info explaining specifically how the process of bonding is accomplished. They mention an explosive connection, along with the words detonation. I don't get the impression this stuff is laid down and then welded in a conventional manner. Any thoughts on this? |
2281|2278|2003-10-09 16:13:53|Joseph Smith|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|I saw it but was not able to play the video. It mentions 600,000 psi. I'm still not sure how you ignite the stuff. Don't think I want to be fooling around with it. Sounds a lot like dynamite caps! I live close enough to T. Hermanson I might be able to arrange to witness a Blow if I really needed to. Think I'll attach my stainless samson post to the aluminum deck the old fashioned way, unless anybody has any new ideas. Appreciate the info though...|
2282|2278|2003-10-09 16:48:58|Alex and Kim Christie|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|Joseph, Here's a very interesting full explanation from Triclad how it is done (pdf file, may take a minute or more to download): http://www.triclad.com/pictures/triclad.pdf A full technical description of the process if found on page 6 of that file, but I offer a basic synopsis of the process: Both metal and aluminum sheets are prepared so as to be completely clean and free of contaminants. The thinner piece is suspended above the thicker, which is resting on a sand base, and a special explosive charge is detonated above that, blowing the two pieces together. How do they stick? They state: "The extremely high pressure generated at the point where the metals initially meet vaporises the surface contaminants (oxides) which are ejected, thus producing the molecular bond between the two virgin surfaces. The outer layer of metal is only microns thick. Some very localised work hardening occurs, but in general the properties of the two metals remain unchanged [there is no alloying between the two metals -alex]. The metal temperature after cladding is such that you can place your hand on the surface. " They do not preheat the metal, it is done cold. A diagram of the explosion taking place shows a wave induced into the interface between the materials as the pressure jet escapes from between the two layers. This results in an uneven surface inside the material, but the outside remains flat. They also mention that they use an inner layer of pure aluminum between the steel and the alu alloy (hence the name "triclad"), to improve the bond . (the stuff I got the quote on is the same three-layer as this). I was partially wrong about plasma cutting, in part, since they can cut it with submerged plasma cutting (to create a heat sink with the water, I guess), not open air plasma. They use waterjet cutting normally, for any complex shape you'd like, or it can be cut mechanically. In the narrow strips for Pilger's case, this would be pretty easily accomplished with a metal cutting wheel on a grinder or metal saw. Lastly, the technical file mentioned above explains everything about the corrosion resistance of the bonded strip. Suffice it to say, after a small amount of penetration of corrosion at the alusteel boundary the material protects itself with a layer of very hard and inert aluminum oxide hydrate, which acts as a seal and prevents any further penetration of corrosion. If you scratch that spot, there is only a pinpoint of further corrosion at that spot, then it reseals itself again. If appears that there is simply no chance for an electrolyte to get into any spaces where it could create an active environment, and as the oxide plugs the hole and renders the environment passive again. They have these main points to remember when welding the tri-clad strip: Never weld across the interface, otherwise disbonding will occur Never make a sharp bend in the joint Never pre-heat joint prior to welding or bending Never allow the interface to exceed 300 C Never gas cut the joint strip Alex ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Smith To: Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] bimetallic alu/cs revisited > I have researched this stuff pretty throughly but I have not found any info explaining specifically how the process of bonding is accomplished. They mention an explosive connection, along with the words detonation. I don't get the impression this stuff is laid down and then welded in a conventional manner. Any thoughts on this? |
2283|2283|2003-10-09 16:53:15|Alex and Kim Christie|stainless samson post to alu deck|Just to note, Triclad also sells a stainless steel/aluminum strip that would work for your deck. T. Hermanson would not be the one bonding the sheets together -- this is done in a remote location under controlled conditions. I imagine it is a mighty bang! Alex Ps, I don't work for Triclad, though I would like it if they paid me for extolling the virtues of their product...might help fund my boat project.|
2284|2278|2003-10-09 17:37:03|Dale J. Robertson|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|Joseph, to be more clear: the explosive process is used only in the manufacture of the material itself. To use the material you just weld your alloy to the alloy side of the material and weld your steel to the steel side. No blow is required! Dale Robertson Joseph Smith wrote: > I saw it but was not able to play the video. It mentions 600,000 psi. > I'm still not sure how you ignite the stuff. Don't think I want to be > fooling around with it. Sounds a lot like dynamite caps! I live close > enough to T. Hermanson I might be able to arrange to witness a Blow if I > really needed to. Think I'll attach my stainless samson post to the > aluminum deck the old fashioned way, unless anybody has any new ideas. > Appreciate the info though... > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service > . |
2285|2278|2003-10-09 18:04:46|Mark K|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|I'm wondering about thermal expansion issues with the completed structure. The thermal coeff. of steel is about 0.000012/degC and aluminum is about 0.000023/degC. Over a temprature range of 50degC and a joint of 20 feet you could have as much as 1/8" difference in the expansion from one extreme to the other. If I've got my numbers right, it seems like you could build up a lot of stress. I wonder what the practical joint length limit is for applications like ours. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been doing a little research on pricing for "Detacouple" (also > confirmed there is no "L" in Detacouple) from Dynamic Metals Corporation, > Boulder, CO. For two different thicknesses I've got prices of $24.48 USD > and $26.88 USD per linear foot. Read on for details. > > I didn't know the linear length around the tops of the cabin sides on Don > Taylor's Pilger, but I just made a wild guess of 40 linear feet so that Jose > Olivas, the rep, could have a number to work with (although I think I > over-estimated). This should allow for 20 feet on either side of the cabin > and 20 feet extra for all bits in between, with tons left over. > > The resulting price quote seemed to be not too bad considering this is a > permanent (hopefully!) fix and returns the hull to monolithic form: > __________________________________________________________________ > Thickness Width Unit price USD/ft Total price USD 40 > linear feet > > 1.375" 0.75" $26.88/ft $1,075.20 > > 0.75" 0.75" $24.48/ft $979.20 > __________________________________________________________________ > > If Don only needs, say, 30 feet of the 0.75" thick stuff, then total cost is > $734.40. > > It comes in lengths of 10 to 12 feet, btw. > > Certainly joining an entire deck to hull with this stuff would be more > prohibitive cost-wise but for this specific situation where one is simply > joining a new "lid" to the top of the cabin, it sure would make a nice solid > fix without any concern for leaking through-bolts several years on. > > One interesting thing to note is that this material is now made up of three > layers, not two, the base layer being carbon steel, the intermediate layer > (called the "interlayer") made of aluminum 1100, and the top layer of your > choice of 5446 or 5985 alu according to customer preference. > > Since the bonded metals have different rates of expansion, you should only > cut it mechanically (no plasma or gas cutting), and follow exact procedures > for welding. Doing a proper job with it doesn't appear to be beyond anyone > who can weld carefully, though real proof of this should really come from > someone who has actually used it like Topper Hermanson. > > Alex |
2286|2278|2003-10-09 19:16:53|Joseph Smith|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|Great! The fog is beginning to clear. Somehow I was under the impression that the strip had to be bonded to the surface by some sort of detonation. Now I see, the strip is ready to go as is, you simply weld metals to metals. This opens up a whole new world, I have been agonizing over bolt up's for a while. Am looking at a whole new method of propulsion incorporating a Fischer Panda diesel electric system that might well require a steel or stainless skeg. Man, this stuff is the way to go! No doubt about it. Thanks very much...|
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2288|2288|2003-10-09 21:33:51|Alex and Kim Christie|expansion coefficients|Triclad recommended welding the bimetal strip to the aluminum first, then welding the steel to that, allowing the larger structure act as a heat sink. They also recommended very short runs of weldment (I can't remember how much but it was indicated in the pdf file), probably shorter than the shortest runs when welding alu if you really wanted to be careful. I expect you have to adhere to their instructions religiously in order to avoid problems. If they recommend something, it is likely for a good reason! Alex > I'm wondering about thermal expansion issues with the completed > structure. The thermal coeff. of steel is about 0.000012/degC and > aluminum is about 0.000023/degC. Over a temprature range of 50degC > and a joint of 20 feet you could have as much as 1/8" difference in > the expansion from one extreme to the other. If I've got my numbers > right, it seems like you could build up a lot of stress. I wonder > what the practical joint length limit is for applications like ours. > |
2289|2288|2003-10-09 22:51:52|richytill|Re: expansion coefficients|When we welded the aluminum/steel transition on the naval vessels I mentioned earlier--we relied on the mass of the hull as a heat sink. It worked well and the structures are still in service. rt (My Island) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Triclad recommended welding the bimetal strip to the aluminum first, then > welding the steel to that, allowing the larger structure act as a heat sink. > They also recommended very short runs of weldment (I can't remember how much > but it was indicated in the pdf file), probably shorter than the shortest > runs when welding alu if you really wanted to be careful. I expect you have > to adhere to their instructions religiously in order to avoid problems. If > they recommend something, it is likely for a good reason! > > Alex > > > > I'm wondering about thermal expansion issues with the completed > > structure. The thermal coeff. of steel is about 0.000012/degC and > > aluminum is about 0.000023/degC. Over a temprature range of 50degC > > and a joint of 20 feet you could have as much as 1/8" difference in > > the expansion from one extreme to the other. If I've got my numbers > > right, it seems like you could build up a lot of stress. I wonder > > what the practical joint length limit is for applications like ours. > > |
2290|2220|2003-10-11 07:19:01|sae140|Re: G55 construction details|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > I must say I find the discussions between Brent and Greg facinating > and very informative. Informative regarding design issues - perhaps. But not informative at all regarding design success nor prices for plans/ design work. Brent's designs have been built in substantial numbers, and he is very open about his modest prices. Colin|
2291|2291|2003-10-11 07:30:57|sae140|Aluminium cabin |Some time ago I researched the Tri-clad explosive strip system of joining steel to aluminium, and came to the conclusion that it was far too expensive for my budget. It occured to me that 2-3" s/s strips could be welded to the deck inside edges, as a form of 'upstand', then the aluminium cabin sides could be bolted onto the outside of that. I was thinking of a gasket strip being used between the materials, with the aluminium overlapping this strip by a few millimetres below to act as a drip edge, with the whole caboodle being through-bolted using s/s roundheaded coach-bolts. But - is the weight saved worth all this effort ? I'm not convinced. My 2p Colin|
2292|2292|2003-10-11 08:07:03|sae140|avoiding an ugly boat|There is one aspect of building which doesn't seem to get much air- time - that of appearance. I'd very much like to build using traditionally shaped round portlights (like the Wylo), but with a pilot house as well. How can these two aspects be married together without creating a dog's dinner in the process ? Has it already been done successfully ? Brent briefly covers this aspect of boat-building in his book, but uses rectangular lights to create a modern(ish) design. I'd like to retain a more traditional appearance if possible. Any thoughts/ suggestions ? Colin|
2293|2292|2003-10-11 10:10:07|mark_schlichting11|Re: avoiding an ugly boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > I'd very much like to build using traditionally shaped round > portlights (like the Wylo), but with a pilot house as well. How can > these two aspects be married together without creating a dog's dinner > in the process ? Has it already been done successfully ? I don't know if it was unusual, but my old boat had exactly what you describe - round portlights in the main cabin and pilothouse (with rectangular ports) and it looked just fine. It was a Colin "Saugeen Witch" and I'm almost positive the pilothouse was a common design modification for that model. If you are interested, I may be able to scan an old photo when I get home in a couple of weeks. Mark S. "Costa Vida" Shearwater, BC|
2294|2292|2003-10-11 11:02:07|jim dorey|Re: avoiding an ugly boat|up here on glass fishing boats, the pilot houses have square windows, but with rounded edges, maybe that will work. of course you could hide the windows under a lintel, make it look like you don't have windows at all. tilt them out at the top so the sun doesn't reveal your treachery. rugged sailor is he, can take waves in the face and still see clearly. sae140 wrote: > I'd very much like to build using traditionally shaped round > portlights (like the Wylo), but with a pilot house as well. How can > these two aspects be married together without creating a dog's dinner > in the process ? Has it already been done successfully ? > > Brent briefly covers this aspect of boat-building in his book, but > uses rectangular lights to create a modern(ish) design. I'd like to > retain a more traditional appearance if possible. > > Any thoughts/ suggestions ? > > Colin -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2295|2295|2003-10-11 11:10:55|jim dorey|Re: Aluminium cabin|you're using square tubing to hold the cabin together? weld some steel square tube to the deck, maybe 12", seal the ends, slide the cabin framing on, bolt through, put gasket under the plates, weld up the thing. you'll save maybe 500lb? gain 100 in steel? save 400 total? i'm sure you can figure the numbers out, after all, you have the plans. sae140 wrote: > But - is the weight saved worth all this effort ? I'm not convinced. > > My 2p > > Colin -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2296|2292|2003-10-11 18:16:18|brentswain38|Re: avoiding an ugly boat|The best looking ports are those with rounded ends with a good length to height ratio.You could also go for eliptical ports using the method for drawing the elipse given in the section on sheerlines, but those don't look as good as ones with straight top and bottom and rounded ends. Eliptical ones look a bit too cartoonie. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, jim dorey wrote: > up here on glass fishing boats, the pilot houses have square windows, > but with rounded edges, maybe that will work. of course you could hide > the windows under a lintel, make it look like you don't have windows at > all. tilt them out at the top so the sun doesn't reveal your treachery. > rugged sailor is he, can take waves in the face and still see clearly. > > sae140 wrote: > > > I'd very much like to build using traditionally shaped round > > portlights (like the Wylo), but with a pilot house as well. How can > > these two aspects be married together without creating a dog's dinner > > in the process ? Has it already been done successfully ? > > > > Brent briefly covers this aspect of boat-building in his book, but > > uses rectangular lights to create a modern(ish) design. I'd like to > > retain a more traditional appearance if possible. > > > > Any thoughts/ suggestions ? > > > > Colin > > > -- > http://www.skaar.101main.net > http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ > http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? > moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com > DOM and proud!!! |
2297|2220|2003-10-11 20:49:22|Mark K|Re: G55 construction details|I was simply expressing appreciation for their participation. I find it reassuring that a professional is willing to come to a public fourm like this and discuss the finer points of their designs. Nowhere it seems are opinions on design features argued more strenously than in ocean cruising boats, and yet it is among these that we find the greatest diversity in boats intended for the same service. There are those who contend that only a fool would go to sea in anything other than a heavy displacement full-keeler while others argue that advances in design and materials have made these older boats obsolete. It's nice to have people who's job it is to know these thing come here and discuss them with us. It means a lot more coming from them than from someone who begins their proof with "I heard about a guy who...". To be fair, if you wanted to know the prices for Greg's services, I'm sure he would be happy to provide them, though I don't know whether he sells stock plans like Brent does. I believe the two of them are targeting slightly different but overlapping markets. - Mark K --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > > I must say I find the discussions between Brent and Greg facinating > > and very informative. > > Informative regarding design issues - perhaps. But not informative > at all regarding design success nor prices for plans/ design work. > > Brent's designs have been built in substantial numbers, and he is > very open about his modest prices. > > > Colin |
2298|2292|2003-10-11 21:03:18|Don Taylor|Re: avoiding an ugly boat|Mark: Yes, please post some photos. I am pondering some sort of inside steering position for our Colvin Gazelle. Since I already own a set round bronze portlights I would be very interested in seeing what other Colvin boats look like with a small wheel-house and round portlights. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark_schlichting11" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > describe - round portlights in the main cabin and pilothouse (with > rectangular ports) and it looked just fine. It was a Colin "Saugeen > Witch" and I'm almost positive the pilothouse was a common design > modification for that model. > > If you are interested, I may be able to scan an old photo when I get > home in a couple of weeks. |
2299|2278|2003-10-11 21:21:52|Don Taylor|Re: bimetallic alu/cs revisited|Alex: Thank you for doing the research for me. I think that I would need about 70-80 linear feet Detacouple for the two cabins on our Gazelle (the forward cabin is about 16' long and the aft cabin about 5' long; both cabins are about 8' wide). So this would be about US$2,000 for the new boundary bar. This is already a bit rich for me, but added to that is that I am not set up to do Al. welding, and that I have very little experience in welding Al. The only time I welded Al. was during a course when I seemed to blow holes more often than weld metal. Given the cost of the Detacouple and my inability to weld to the spec.s required then I would have to hire the job out which would add to the cost. Especially, if I had to take the boat down to Topper's yard. I don't think that I can go this route. Of course, I may regret this decision later. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex and Kim Christie" wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been doing a little research on pricing for "Detacouple" (also > confirmed there is no "L" in Detacouple) from Dynamic Metals Corporation, > Boulder, CO. For two different thicknesses I've got prices of $24.48 USD > and $26.88 USD per linear foot. Read on for details. > > I didn't know the linear length around the tops of the cabin sides on Don > Taylor's Pilger, but I just made a wild guess of 40 linear feet so that Jose > Olivas, the rep, could have a number to work with (although I think I > over-estimated). This should allow for 20 feet on either side of the cabin > and 20 feet extra for all bits in between, with tons left over. > > The resulting price quote seemed to be not too bad considering this is a > permanent (hopefully!) fix and returns the hull to monolithic form: > __________________________________________________________________ > Thickness Width Unit price USD/ft Total price USD 40 > linear feet > > 1.375" 0.75" $26.88/ft $1,075.20 > > 0.75" 0.75" $24.48/ft $979.20 > __________________________________________________________________ > > If Don only needs, say, 30 feet of the 0.75" thick stuff, then total cost is > $734.40. > > It comes in lengths of 10 to 12 feet, btw. > > Certainly joining an entire deck to hull with this stuff would be more > prohibitive cost-wise but for this specific situation where one is simply > joining a new "lid" to the top of the cabin, it sure would make a nice solid > fix without any concern for leaking through-bolts several years on. > > One interesting thing to note is that this material is now made up of three > layers, not two, the base layer being carbon steel, the intermediate layer > (called the "interlayer") made of aluminum 1100, and the top layer of your > choice of 5446 or 5985 alu according to customer preference. > > Since the bonded metals have different rates of expansion, you should only > cut it mechanically (no plasma or gas cutting), and follow exact procedures > for welding. Doing a proper job with it doesn't appear to be beyond anyone > who can weld carefully, though real proof of this should really come from > someone who has actually used it like Topper Hermanson. > > Alex |
2300|1998|2003-10-12 15:31:38|robertgm36|36 twin keel for sale|The 36 twin keel featured on the home page has been sold . Robert|
2301|2220|2003-10-12 17:33:54|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: G55 construction details|To date our work has been custom designs, 39-60 feet, steel and alloy. The boats may be viewed at our web-site http://www.origamimagic.com Should we receive sufficient interest for a particular custom design, we would be more than happy to create a standard design to match. We are happy to provide quotes on request. Designers and builders have a general policy of a fixed price for standard designs, and time and materials for custom designs. We have the same policy, and can assist owners to minimize design costs if we also do the building. Confusion results when comparing apples to oranges. Custom designs from most designers typically run about 5% of the finished cost of a boat. A standard design that costs $6000 to build, with plans for $300, still represents a fee of 5%. Our fees to date have been less. In comparison, a broker will charge you 10% just to sell a boat. We do have people contacting us, hoping we will provide free advice. We do not provide this service, rather we will consult with you for a modest fee ($25/hr) and will do our level best to ensure that every $ you spend with us saves you many more down the road. Occasionally we do not accept business. We have considerable experience, and we will not design cruising boats that we ourselves would not be happy to take to sea with our families aboard. I put my wife and children aboard one of our designs and sailed them across the Pacific. What greater proof can anyone offer of a design? Anyone with children will understand what I am saying. Ron and I are long time steel boat enthusiasts, and have been sailing, building and designing boats for quite awhile. We have probably 75 years combined boating experience. Safety and value for money is our primary concern in designing and building a boat. You cannot build a silk purse from a sow's ear, and when other people's lives are at stake it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise. In general we do not design steel boats below 40 feet, because the weight of steel tends to compromise the stability, performance, and/or corrosion resistance of the vessel. Even at 40 feet a good design in steel is a challenge. We believe metal construction under 40 feet is in general better suited to alloy, especially for decks and houses. Readers interested in this question are encouraged to consult authoritative works on metal boat design. The Elements of Boat Strength by Dave Gerr has been mentioned in this forum. As I recall, this work recommends 50 feet as the smallest size for all steel construction. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark K To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: G55 construction details I was simply expressing appreciation for their participation. I find it reassuring that a professional is willing to come to a public fourm like this and discuss the finer points of their designs. Nowhere it seems are opinions on design features argued more strenously than in ocean cruising boats, and yet it is among these that we find the greatest diversity in boats intended for the same service. There are those who contend that only a fool would go to sea in anything other than a heavy displacement full-keeler while others argue that advances in design and materials have made these older boats obsolete. It's nice to have people who's job it is to know these thing come here and discuss them with us. It means a lot more coming from them than from someone who begins their proof with "I heard about a guy who...". To be fair, if you wanted to know the prices for Greg's services, I'm sure he would be happy to provide them, though I don't know whether he sells stock plans like Brent does. I believe the two of them are targeting slightly different but overlapping markets. - Mark K --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > > I must say I find the discussions between Brent and Greg facinating > > and very informative. > > Informative regarding design issues - perhaps. But not informative > at all regarding design success nor prices for plans/ design work. > > Brent's designs have been built in substantial numbers, and he is > very open about his modest prices. > > > Colin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2302|2220|2003-10-13 09:34:54|sae140|Re: G55 construction details|Hi Mark > I was simply expressing appreciation for their participation. Sure - I understand that. I simply wanted to extend the thread to include wider issues of information: pricing and design success. Perhaps I should have started a separate thread ? Those whom you describe as 'professionals' may or may not be qualified in naval architecture, so I'm not sure professional is entirely the right word to be using, except in the ordinary sense of someone who gets paid for doing a job of work. In this sense, even the guy who sweeps the street is 'a professional'. Having said this, I don't give a tinker's cuss for qualifications, but there *are* those who do. Personally, I am far more concerned with whether a boat design 'works' or not - that is, whether it is safe, comfortable, well thought out, economical to build, and so on .... One barometer which can quickly and easily be used in this context is design success: i.e. how many boats have been built, and what feedback has been received from their owners/ users. A design which has been proven over a decade or more of blue-water voyaging is clearly a design which works. As I mentioned, Brent's designs have been built in substantial numbers, and afaik the feedback has been positive. I have no information regarding the number of boats built to Greg Elliott's designs, so cannot comment further. As I also mentioned, Brent's prices are well-known and have been mentioned several times on this forum. To the best of my knowledge Greg Elliott's prices have never been discussed here, and it may be of interest that some months ago I was quoted $Cdn 1500 for a set of plans for an unproven, untested Wylo-style origami hull. This is several hundred percent more than both the original Wylo plans and Brent's equivalent plans (the underwater lines are practically identical), both of which are well-proven designs, with dozens of boats already in the water. The fact that this price is not for a stock plan is of no concern to me whatsoever. If a designer does not have stock plans in his portfolio, that's a deficiency he needs to remedy, and is not my concern. I wouldn't dream of promoting myself as a designer of anything without a basic portfolio to demonstrate my work. As a customer, all I am interested in is the bottom line: i.e. how much the plans will cost me, and how good the design is. And by 'good', I mean how appropriate the design is for my particular needs. It's worth bearing in mind that custom-made boats are unknown entities, and as such should be cheaper, *not* more expensive. Why should I pay extra to be a guinea-pig for someone else's learning exercise, and to develop their design portfolios ? > I believe the two of them are targeting slightly different but overlapping markets. This is not how I see it. Only one is involved in 'targeting' by making persistent and rather irritating sales pitches (of a hull size which falls outside of this group's description) towards a perceived market, which may or may not exist. The other is not 'targeting a market' at all, but relying upon a reputation based on proven demonstration, a modest pricing approach, helpful advice freely given, and a large dose of goodwill which has developed over many years. Recent acrimonious exchanges should tell you that an underlying conflict exists, which is not just about two individual designers nor their designs, but is about fundamental differences in lifestyle approach: one consumerist, the other not. Respectfully, Colin|
2303|2303|2003-10-14 12:43:39|prairiemaidca|port failure|Hi All: Richard it sounds like you had a major problem on your hands when those ports failed. What conclusion did you come up with as to why the failure. Was it due to a weakness in design (too big an area of unsuported plexi) Or was the forces of nature just to much for any reasonalbly constructed port? In your case did the plexi itself break or did the surrounding area of the boat let go first? Mayby an object from the boat hit the port or was it strictly a major dose of sea water. Does anyone else have any stories and ideas on homemade ports and their failures at sea and why it happened?? Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid)|
2304|2304|2003-10-15 12:13:08|info@easysoftwareinc.com|promoting origami|The email below provides history behind the estimate provided for Wylo. You will note Colin's reference that developing an origami pattern was "very laborious and time-consuming". Creating high-quality origami patterns takes time. We are not charging hundreds of dollars for making copies of a pattern we have sold over and over again. We charge for the time, years of experience and training, and thousands of dollars of computer equipment we use to make a new pattern. Our understanding is that this site is to promote all origami designs, not just those of a single designer. Unless new designs are created, and the origami process refined and improved, it can never hope to gain widespread acceptance as a boat building technique. I recently attended a meeting of the metal boat society and had the opportunity to meet and talk with people about origami boats. A great many people I met rolled their eyes up when I mentioned origami. They were not interested in the process, seeing it solely as a means of producing cheap, rough looking boats. We see a much different potential for origami. My purpose at that meeting was to educate people that origami boats can be spectacular, original, and beautiful. That the only limits to origami are the imagination to explore new ideas. greg elliott yacht lazy bones http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Powell" To: Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 1:28 AM > Hi Greg > > an off-forum post (hope that's ok), firstly to thank you for bringing not > only your knowledge and experience to the OrigamiBoats site, but also for > restoring some sanity ! > > (section about paint removed) > > Ok - your Genoa 55 site. Interesting - very interesting. > > Not having any CAD skills of note, I've been adopting a low-tech approach to > Origami design: making a model from plywood sections, using plaster infill, > then applying a sellotape 'orange-peel' skin to the half-hull and developing > a cardboard model from that. Works well, but very laborious and > time-consuming. I'd spotted that 2 darts would improve the midships > sections considerably, but hadn't thought of going for three. A trade-off I > guess. > > The hull I've been working on is Nick Skeates multi-chine "Wylo II", and the > resulting origami hull appears very similar indeed to the Brent Swain hull > form. For that reason I've temporarily suspended development of an Origami > Wylo, and am teetering on the brink of starting a Swain 31 build, as Swain > offers more headroom than the Wylo, together with a bilge keel option. > OK - so what ? > > Well, both the Wylo and Swain designs are second-best (in my eyes) - they > are good solid reliable designs, but I don't have any 'passion' for them (if > you understand that one) - I'd be building such a boat quite simply because > I can't build what I really want ... which is more-or-less a copy of Allan > Farrell's China Cloud, which I believe is the stuff of legend in your parts. > > Evan Shaler has built a quasi-replica in steel - there are photos of this > boat on the Origami site. I've asked Evan to sell me plans, and have even > invited him to come over to the UK and build me one here, if pulling > together such a hull is difficult. Evan is discouraging me from attempting > a 'Shaler Junk' as my first Origami build, for he has much experience of > this technique, and I believe he found this one particularly tricky. > > But if I'm truly honest, then I'm a bit of a fraud, for although I love the > sweeping lines of China Cloud, I'd be happier to know that these visually > attractive topsides were married to a more modern sea-kindly underwater > profile. > I've considered marrying these two aspects together, but generating such an > exaggerated sheer would place a lot of metal above the CG, and I'm mindful > of your cautionary tale about London's Snark ...... > > > Seeing as you live in the BC area, I'm hoping you will be familiar with both > China Cloud and Evan Shaler's junk, and would appreciate any thoughts you > might have about creating a pastiche of a classic 3-stick sea-going junk > (albeit with a narrower hull), very much along the lines of China Cloud . > And - from the reading of past OrigamiBoats posts, it appears I'm not the > only one to have an interest in producing a boat of this type. > > With very best regards from 'the other side of the pond' > > Colin Powell > > > > > > > |
2305|2305|2003-10-16 00:20:51|cain2abell|How do I get the book?|I sent a check to the address that was given in one of the earliest posts and I had it returned to me. Is there a new address? Did I screw something up here? Any help would be greatly appreciated Abell|
2306|2305|2003-10-16 00:58:13|Paul J. Thompson|Re: How do I get the book?|Abell, Here is Brent's address. I bought his book from him about a month ago, from this address. For a copy of my book, please send $20 CDN plus $10 CDN for airmail postage ,to 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 Thanks Brent Swain Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- From: cain2abell [mailto:cain2abell@...] Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2003 5:21 p.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] How do I get the book? I sent a check to the address that was given in one of the earliest posts and I had it returned to me. Is there a new address? Did I screw something up here? Any help would be greatly appreciated Abell To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 9/10/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 9/10/2003|
2307|2220|2003-10-16 03:03:14|fmichael graham|Re: G55 construction details|Great! Once again Mr.Elliott shamelessly uses this board as a venue to plug his company. I think once is enough. It was my impression that this group was set up for the purpose of meaningful discussion, NOT for free advertising. Mike Graham info@... wrote: To date our work has been custom designs, 39-60 feet, steel and alloy. The boats may be viewed at our web-site http://www.origamimagic.com Should we receive sufficient interest for a particular custom design, we would be more than happy to create a standard design to match. We are happy to provide quotes on request. Designers and builders have a general policy of a fixed price for standard designs, and time and materials for custom designs. We have the same policy, and can assist owners to minimize design costs if we also do the building. Confusion results when comparing apples to oranges. Custom designs from most designers typically run about 5% of the finished cost of a boat. A standard design that costs $6000 to build, with plans for $300, still represents a fee of 5%. Our fees to date have been less. In comparison, a broker will charge you 10% just to sell a boat. We do have people contacting us, hoping we will provide free advice. We do not provide this service, rather we will consult with you for a modest fee ($25/hr) and will do our level best to ensure that every $ you spend with us saves you many more down the road. Occasionally we do not accept business. We have considerable experience, and we will not design cruising boats that we ourselves would not be happy to take to sea with our families aboard. I put my wife and children aboard one of our designs and sailed them across the Pacific. What greater proof can anyone offer of a design? Anyone with children will understand what I am saying. Ron and I are long time steel boat enthusiasts, and have been sailing, building and designing boats for quite awhile. We have probably 75 years combined boating experience. Safety and value for money is our primary concern in designing and building a boat. You cannot build a silk purse from a sow's ear, and when other people's lives are at stake it is irresponsible to suggest otherwise. In general we do not design steel boats below 40 feet, because the weight of steel tends to compromise the stability, performance, and/or corrosion resistance of the vessel. Even at 40 feet a good design in steel is a challenge. We believe metal construction under 40 feet is in general better suited to alloy, especially for decks and houses. Readers interested in this question are encouraged to consult authoritative works on metal boat design. The Elements of Boat Strength by Dave Gerr has been mentioned in this forum. As I recall, this work recommends 50 feet as the smallest size for all steel construction. greg elliott yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark K To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2003 5:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: G55 construction details I was simply expressing appreciation for their participation. I find it reassuring that a professional is willing to come to a public fourm like this and discuss the finer points of their designs. Nowhere it seems are opinions on design features argued more strenously than in ocean cruising boats, and yet it is among these that we find the greatest diversity in boats intended for the same service. There are those who contend that only a fool would go to sea in anything other than a heavy displacement full-keeler while others argue that advances in design and materials have made these older boats obsolete. It's nice to have people who's job it is to know these thing come here and discuss them with us. It means a lot more coming from them than from someone who begins their proof with "I heard about a guy who...". To be fair, if you wanted to know the prices for Greg's services, I'm sure he would be happy to provide them, though I don't know whether he sells stock plans like Brent does. I believe the two of them are targeting slightly different but overlapping markets. - Mark K --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > > I must say I find the discussions between Brent and Greg facinating > > and very informative. > > Informative regarding design issues - perhaps. But not informative > at all regarding design success nor prices for plans/ design work. > > Brent's designs have been built in substantial numbers, and he is > very open about his modest prices. > > > Colin Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2308|2308|2003-10-16 07:09:07|Mark K|origami cabin|I've noticed that the cabins on many modern boats look a lot like inverted boat hulls so naturally it occurred to me that it might be possible to construct a metal cabin top using origami techniques. Hide the chine with a grab rail or with some stylishly shaped windows and everyone would swear that it had to be a glass boat. It could reduce the amount of metal fabrication required, but it could make finishing the interior a bit more challenging depending on how you did it. just thinking out loud, - Mark K|
2309|2220|2003-10-16 07:32:56|sae140|Re: G55 construction details|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Great! Once again Mr.Elliott shamelessly uses this board as a venue to plug his company. I think once is enough. It was my impression that this group was set up for the purpose of meaningful discussion, NOT for free advertising. > Mike Graham > Couldn't agree with you more Mike. I've been skipping over Greg's posts for some time now to avoid being exposed to irritating advertising, but I kinda object to having to filter posts like this, and I still get a dose of it anyway when I read someone's post whose opinion I value replying to it. But, in trying to stay positive about this issue - wouldn't one easy solution be to set up a second origami group to discuss hulls in excess of 40ft, where folk with lots of money could discuss their giant-sized issues, and Greg could make as many sales pitches as he wants there without invoking adverse criticism. I'll set up the group if no-one else wants to, but I certainly wouldn't want to run it. Those of us with smaller wallets, more modest aspirations, a less consumerist approach, and those who object to a group being abused in this manner, could simply stay here. Feedback ? Colin|
2311|2304|2003-10-16 08:59:58|sae140|promoting origami|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The email below provides history behind the estimate provided for Wylo. You will note Colin's reference that developing an origami > pattern was "very laborious and time-consuming". Greg I have just read your post, following advice from a group member that you have reproduced my private email to you in a public forum. This demonstrates very poor form and shows lack of personal integrity. It has always been my understanding that a document should only ever be reproduced publicly with the consent of it's author. Your post is also dishonest, as the email you have published was by way of an early introduction, and was *primarily* a discussion about paint issues - which I note you have edited out. This mail does not relate *in any way* to the request I made to you 8 days later for a quotation - which followed after numerous exchanges between us on the subjects of paint and electrolysis. The request I sent you reads: Greg I'd be interested in learning how much you would charge for the conversion of an existing set of offsets to origami. The boat I have in mind is the 32/35ft Wylo II - I've attached a couple of graphics to give you some idea of the shape. I'd prefer twin keels and a skeg, as per Brent Swain's designs, and a wheelhouse if this could be incorporated without knackering the lines. Regards Colin This is somewhat different from the image you have sought to portray in your post. There is no *history* here - it's a stand-alone request for a price for a conversion of a proven design. Why on earth can't you be honest about these things ? I'd also like to clarify that taking the lines from a half-model by means of an 'orange-peel' is indeed time consuming and laborious, but it's also an enjoyable process and one which is virtually *free*. And the results are plenty good enough to build a boat from. As I'm sure you must realise by now, I didn't want you to actually do the job - I only sought to know how much you charged. I already had an acceptable orange-peel to work from. I would encourage anyone who is strapped for cash, or who wishes to 'origami' a design of conventional construction, to consider using this method - which I describe in posts 1468, 1477 & 1484 earlier this year, having copied the idea from Brent Swain. Colin|
2312|2304|2003-10-16 10:16:45|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: promoting origami|Colin, we are happy to have the full record made public. We look forward to your success in building an origami Wylo II. Are pictures available? regards, greg greg elliott yacht lazy bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2313|2220|2003-10-16 12:26:39|...|Re: G55 construction details|This group would be the poorer if Greg left and set up his own group, he has made a valuable contribution to the development of origami hull construction. Surely we are all able to learn something from his experience building larger hulls, and apply it to our own ideal yacht, whatever the design or size. How many commercial designers or builders would take time to contribute to a group like this, not many, then the cry would be they don't want to bother with use and don't reply to our emails. Most groups welcome people with knowledge and expertise they would be of little interest or value without them. I cannot recall you having made any contribution, perhaps you would like to tell the group what you are project coordinator of and what you are building. Geoff I agree- but why not let people who are trying for free advertising know that we want them to do it elsewhere, or fill their mailboxes with all the crap you can. Andre' Venter Project Co ordinator Cape Town Youth Projects 217 Lower Klipfontein Rd. Athlone Cape Town 7764 South Africa Tel +27 (0)84 509 8765 Fax +27 (0)21 699 0499|
2314|2220|2003-10-16 14:45:08|Paul J. Thompson|Re: G55 construction details|I am in full agreement with this. Paul Thompson -----Original Message----- From: ... [mailto:gwpdesign@...] Sent: Friday, 17 October 2003 5:33 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: G55 construction details This group would be the poorer if Greg left and set up his own group, he has made a valuable contribution to the development of origami hull construction. Surely we are all able to learn something from his experience building larger hulls, and apply it to our own ideal yacht, whatever the design or size. How many commercial designers or builders would take time to contribute to a group like this, not many, then the cry would be they don't want to bother with use and don't reply to our emails. Most groups welcome people with knowledge and expertise they would be of little interest or value without them. I cannot recall you having made any contribution, perhaps you would like to tell the group what you are project coordinator of and what you are building. Geoff I agree- but why not let people who are trying for free advertising know that we want them to do it elsewhere, or fill their mailboxes with all the crap you can. Andre' Venter Project Co ordinator Cape Town Youth Projects 217 Lower Klipfontein Rd. Athlone Cape Town 7764 South Africa Tel +27 (0)84 509 8765 Fax +27 (0)21 699 0499 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 9/10/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.525 / Virus Database: 322 - Release Date: 9/10/2003|
2315|2315|2003-10-16 15:36:51|alex_christie|spreading the origami word|As moderator, I feel a need to step in and state that as long as whatever is being promoted has something to do with origami boatbuilding there is no problem with it. The whole field of origami boatbuilding and design is very narrow currently (2 designers in N.A., as far as I know), and needs all the promotion it can get, even including self-promotion of a given designer's work. The eye-rolling response that Greg has had from Metal Boat Society members upon mention of origami boatbuilding is the very same eye-rolling response that Brent has encountered over the years in the same milieu, making Brent and Greg kindred spirits in many ways, even if they are from different ends of the origami spectrum. We need diversity in order to expand this field and promote the building technique, and I would welcome anyone else out there who is exprimenting with origami to come forward and promote what they have to the group. They should be able to do so without fear of being run out of town:-) I don't believe Greg is dabbling in origami boat design out of charity for our interest alone -- he is investing his time and money to make a legitimate attempt to forge a living out of something he likes, rather than spending his days in suit and tie stuck in an office only dreaming about designing, building and sailing boats. It's free enterprise in the full tradition of most of the cultures represented on this board, and as such I don't see much harm in it. And, just as in any free market economy, if you don't like the price, don't buy the product. Brent's pricing is a bargain compared to what is out there, and if Greg's pricing is more on par with the usual offerings out there I don't know what the issue is. Greg's ability to take any design and make it origami should be a boon for anyone out there wants a particular type of boat but would like to "origamify" it. As we make our way through the advertising that Yahoo now makes us wade through on our way to messages (which keeps this service free) let's keep in mind that at least Greg's advertising is directly related to our subject of interest, compared to the spam that plagues all e-mail users the world over. If it is not to your liking, then simply toggle your mail settings for the group to "web only" and skip the messages you wish to avoid by reading them online. We need to keep the tone of the board friendly, open to new ideas, and encouraging of designers nurturing a career in the field in order to allow word of the building technique to flourish, so let's cut some slack for this one of only two designers active in the field, ok? Yours, Alex|
2316|2316|2003-10-16 16:57:53|Phil S.|Subtlety|I agree that Greg has made some interesting contributions to this forum. I have had a few private e-mails with him as well. Maybe you need to tone it down a bit Greg. If someone wants your information they will ask for it. Then you can carry out deals off board. On a side note I am still working on the Tug plans, I have been side tracked again with a more impotant project. Thanks Phil|
2317|2316|2003-10-16 18:06:16|fmichael graham|Re: Subtlety|Yes! That's all I am saying. Constructive contributions are valued by all and if a member requests info. on designers, fabricators, suppliers, etc. then 1)the previous posts, 2)those members "in the know", 3)links, and, perhaps, 4)the moderator exist to assist that individual(no need to bombard the membership with advertising). An example to clarify; I noticed a post by Alex(moderator) - in the not too distant past - informing us that there was a 36' hull for sale. we would not have needed subsequent posts, selling us on the beauty of the lines, the fine construction, the "steal of a deal" price. I have not, nor would I, suggest that any member leave the group. I did not mean to paint a target on Greg. Having said this, I think that If the "spirit" of this group is amicable to the sale of products and services - as suggested by the moderator - then I should re-evaluate how I utilize my membership within this group (perhaps, selling my own services). shall we move on? Mike Graham "Phil S." wrote: I agree that Greg has made some interesting contributions to this forum. I have had a few private e-mails with him as well. Maybe you need to tone it down a bit Greg. If someone wants your information they will ask for it. Then you can carry out deals off board. On a side note I am still working on the Tug plans, I have been side tracked again with a more impotant project. Thanks Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2318|2315|2003-10-16 18:23:43|richytill|Re: spreading the origami word|Thanks Alex, I am greatful to Brent for his pioneering of the basic folded metal technique here because it allows a working man to achieve a dream: brilliant. At the same time if someone wants to design and build a multi million $ origami, multi chine, super-yacht out of monel or whatever--it's a free(ish) world and we can usually learn from a new venture: admire another pioneer--or disagree respectfully. In building My Island, I did some experimenting and will report on modifications to the VW engine, underwater exhaust, flush deck etc. in due course. I expect some people to disagree--I am glad they have the freedom of expression and forum to do so. People visiting the wharf here consistently are wowed that this is a metal boat, they expect metal to be crude and ugly--I tell them it's folded origami etc. Virtually everyone walks away convinced that welded, folded, metal is an attrative, practical, alternative. For the most part, it speaks for itself. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alex_christie" wrote: > As moderator, I feel a need to step in and state that as long as > whatever is being promoted has something to do with origami > boatbuilding there is no problem with it. The whole field of origami > boatbuilding and design is very narrow currently (2 designers in > N.A., as far as I know), and needs all the promotion it can get, even > including self-promotion of a given designer's work. The eye- rolling > response that Greg has had from Metal Boat Society members upon > mention of origami boatbuilding is the very same eye-rolling response > that Brent has encountered over the years in the same milieu, making > Brent and Greg kindred spirits in many ways, even if they are from > different ends of the origami spectrum. > > We need diversity in order to expand this field and promote the > building technique, and I would welcome anyone else out there who is > exprimenting with origami to come forward and promote what they have > to the group. They should be able to do so without fear of being run > out of town:-) > > I don't believe Greg is dabbling in origami boat design out of > charity for our interest alone -- he is investing his time and money > to make a legitimate attempt to forge a living out of something he > likes, rather than spending his days in suit and tie stuck in an > office only dreaming about designing, building and sailing boats. > It's free enterprise in the full tradition of most of the cultures > represented on this board, and as such I don't see much harm in it. > And, just as in any free market economy, if you don't like the price, > don't buy the product. Brent's pricing is a bargain compared to what > is out there, and if Greg's pricing is more on par with the usual > offerings out there I don't know what the issue is. Greg's ability > to take any design and make it origami should be a boon for anyone > out there wants a particular type of boat but would like > to "origamify" it. > > As we make our way through the advertising that Yahoo now makes us > wade through on our way to messages (which keeps this service free) > let's keep in mind that at least Greg's advertising is directly > related to our subject of interest, compared to the spam that plagues > all e-mail users the world over. If it is not to your liking, then > simply toggle your mail settings for the group to "web only" and skip > the messages you wish to avoid by reading them online. > > We need to keep the tone of the board friendly, open to new ideas, > and encouraging of designers nurturing a career in the field in order > to allow word of the building technique to flourish, so let's cut > some slack for this one of only two designers active in the field, ok? > > Yours, > > Alex |
2319|2315|2003-10-16 18:55:36|Jim Phillips|Re: spreading the origami word|Very well put, Alex. Carry on, Greg. And Brent. Take it easy, mates, Jim. --- alex_christie wrote: > As moderator, I feel a need to step in and state > that as long as > whatever is being promoted has something to do with > origami > boatbuilding there is no problem with it. The whole > field of origami > boatbuilding and design is very narrow currently (2 > designers in > N.A., as far as I know), and needs all the promotion > it can get, even > including self-promotion of a given designer's work. > The eye-rolling > response that Greg has had from Metal Boat Society > members upon > mention of origami boatbuilding is the very same > eye-rolling response > that Brent has encountered over the years in the > same milieu, making > Brent and Greg kindred spirits in many ways, even if > they are from > different ends of the origami spectrum. > > > We need to keep the tone of the board friendly, open > to new ideas, > and encouraging of designers nurturing a career in > the field in order > to allow word of the building technique to flourish, > so let's cut > some slack for this one of only two designers active > in the field, ok? > > Yours, > > Alex > > http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.|
2320|2316|2003-10-17 04:04:09|jim dorey|Re: Subtlety|when advertising enlightens a group to a new product it's good, when it's the same damn thing everybody else has then hunt them down with your honey and fire ants. maybe this is an instance when advertising is necessary, far as i know, origami boats are still niche things. fmichael graham wrote: > Yes! That's all I am saying. Constructive contributions are valued by > all and if a member requests info. on designers, fabricators, > suppliers, etc. then 1)the previous posts, 2)those members "in the > know", 3)links, and, perhaps, 4)the moderator exist to assist that > individual(no need to bombard the membership with advertising). An > example to clarify; I noticed a post by Alex(moderator) - in the not > too distant past - informing us that there was a 36' hull for sale. we > would not have needed subsequent posts, selling us on the beauty of > the lines, the fine construction, the "steal of a deal" price. I have > not, nor would I, suggest that any member leave the group. I did not > mean to paint a target on Greg. Having said this, I think that If the > "spirit" of this group is amicable to the sale of products and > services - as suggested by the moderator - then I should re-evaluate > how I utilize my membership within this group > (perhaps, selling my own services). > shall we move on? > Mike Graham -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2321|2304|2003-10-17 05:35:05|sae140|Re: promoting origami|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Colin, we are happy to have the full record made public. We look forward to your success in building an origami Wylo II. Are pictures available? > > regards, greg > > greg elliott > yacht lazy bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > I'm not sure who is meant by 'we' (?), but photographs will be made available in due course. In the meanwhile, perhaps you would care to publish a photograph or two of a hull which has been built to your origami design ? Colin|
2322|2322|2003-10-17 06:27:29|Mark K|You've got a hull, now what?|I think I have a fair grasp of what it takes to get something boat shaped floating in the water, but I'm curious about the rest of the boat building process, in particular the finishing of the interior. Can anyone recommend some good books that cover this area of boatbuilding? Better yet, anyone want to tell us what you did, are doing or plan to do to fill your empty hull? Perhaps someone has some good ideas for simplifying the interior the way the origami process simplifies the hull. For myself, I'm not big on woodworking and find fiddly wood trim work tedious so I would be looking for solutions that yielded a reasonably finished look without so much woodwork. Perhaps a simpler look like of some of the recent production boats rather than a traditional wood finished interior. - Mark K.|
2323|2304|2003-10-17 06:28:28|Jim Phillips|Re: promoting origami|Colin, If you want to see some of Greg's photos, you should probably just go to his website, like many of us have already done. Maybe you need to go cruising real soon in order to relax a bit, mate. As a supplier, it always irks me to have to supply quotes to people who have absolutely no intention of using my products. If they were actually getting quotes to buy a product - fair enough - that's free trade, good competition and I'm all for it! However, when it is just using my time and resources in order to screw someone else or to obtain free info, it's abuse. But I shrug my shoulders and treat it as one of life's little annoyances (sort of like advertising sometimes, hey? or a contrary wind). The important thing is to not let it get to me. Go for a sail and relax. And I am sure you can, Colin. Take it easy, Jim. http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.|
2324|2322|2003-10-17 08:09:55|Joseph Smith|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|Sort of feel the same way you do! My plans are to make below decks suit my needs. I am not interested in the number of people the boat will sleep, I am interested in comfort, convience, and functionality (heavy on the comfort!). I want a couch that makes in to a bed rather than a 'setee' on the Port side. The unit I have in my 5th wheel travel trailer is located on the slide-out (Port side) and is 3" from the wall, 6' 6" long and when extended makes a 3' 3" wide very comfortable bed with plenty of storage underneath. It is secured to the floor and has been pulled over 200,000 miles with no problems. There MAY be some weight considerations, but I am sure that could be dealt with easily enough. Directly accross from that on the Starboard side, I would like to have a recliner, much like the one in my R.V. Lazy Boy makes a model for small apartments that, like the couch, can be activated almost flush with the bulkhead. Re-upholster it in a marine-durable material, secure it to the floor, tie it down while underway and I don't see any problems. This set up would probably need at least 34' overall to work, w/ a 10' beam minimum. I am only using 10' out of the 12' I currently have available. I have never cared for the 'traditional' layout below decks. Wasted space for my needs. V-births? Maybe one starboard side, the rest of the area storage and work bench w/a vise. Put in a good Head...and it's rock and roll!|
2325|2304|2003-10-17 08:44:27|Mike|Re: promoting origami|So, if I understand you correctly, Jim, this is not a venue to ask questions but, rather, one in which to promote products and services. I guess Colin, et al, should simply hang up the stinger and pull out the wallet. Yeah, right. Do you then advise that we skip this group and go to a boat broker or fab. shop, instead? I think that maybe you should go sailing & give your head a shake. I joined the group when I decided that I'd build a steel-hulled boat utilizing the origami method and thought that those whom had gone before might have valuable suggestions as to avoiding pitfalls, sourcing material/parts, etc.. Have I missed something here? If you and Greg only wish to part with your opinion for a price then I suppose we won't be hearing much more from you then. Nevermind, Colin, there are enough of us here whom are willing and able to share our opinions and abilities for free. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > Colin, > > If you want to see some of Greg's photos, you should > probably just go to his website, like many of us have > already done. > > Maybe you need to go cruising real soon in order to > relax a bit, mate. > > As a supplier, it always irks me to have to supply > quotes to people who have absolutely no intention of > using my products. If they were actually getting > quotes to buy a product - fair enough - that's free > trade, good competition and I'm all for it! However, > when it is just using my time and resources in order > to screw someone else or to obtain free info, it's > abuse. But I shrug my shoulders and treat it as one > of life's little annoyances (sort of like advertising > sometimes, hey? or a contrary wind). The important > thing is to not let it get to me. > > Go for a sail and relax. > And I am sure you can, Colin. > > Take it easy, > Jim. > > > > http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals > New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time. |
2326|2322|2003-10-17 10:08:34|Mike|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|In revamping an old "plastic" boat for off-shore sailing, I copied the Bayfield 29' settee which has a single berth that slides out to become a double - when in port, it made for a very roomy bed. I turned the v-berth area into a sail/equipment locker as a forward berth is quite useless at sea. I have found that comfort is on par with safety considerations and makes a long passage that much more bareable. I made best use of two books by Ferenc Mate: "From a Bare Hull", and "The Finely Fitted Yacht". These books have a lot of knick- knacks that can be built to add a lot to your lifestyle without sacrificing too much space(stores take up most of your interior, it seems). I often used systems/parts from my RV, as it was easier than building from scratch. The biggest problems I encountered when I did this were sharp edges and a lack of corrosion resistance in some areas. Mike - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Smith wrote: > Sort of feel the same way you do! My plans are to make below decks suit my needs. I am not interested in the number of people the boat will sleep, I am interested in comfort, convience, and functionality (heavy on the comfort!). I want a couch that makes in to a bed rather than a 'setee' on the Port side. The unit I have in my 5th wheel travel trailer is located on the slide-out (Port side) and is 3" from the wall, 6' 6" long and when extended makes a 3' 3" wide very comfortable bed with plenty of storage underneath. It is secured to the floor and has been pulled over 200,000 miles with no problems. There MAY be some weight considerations, but I am sure that could be dealt with easily enough. Directly accross from that on the Starboard side, I would like to have a recliner, much like the one in my R.V. Lazy Boy makes a model for small apartments that, like the couch, can be activated almost flush with the bulkhead. Re- upholster it in a marine-durable material, secure it to the floor, tie it down while underway and I don't see any problems. This set up would probably need at least 34' overall to work, w/ a 10' beam minimum. I am only using 10' out of the 12' I currently have available. I have never cared for the 'traditional' layout below decks. Wasted space for my needs. V-births? Maybe one starboard side, the rest of the area storage and work bench w/a vise. Put in a good Head...and it's rock and roll!|
2327|2322|2003-10-17 12:07:38|mark_schlichting11|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|-When my wife and I were considering building a boat, we felt confident we could build an Origami hull with Brent's help, but my wife asked "What about an interior"? I said "We'll put in something quick and easy". Brent said he could help us throw one in in a few days! We knew that wasn't likely but we also laughed at those who told us the hull is only 10% of building a boat and that we shouldn't launch until "the last screw has been turned". It just goes to show how everyone's expectations and experiences differ. With 8 weeks of Brent's help and very little of anyone else's, we had the boat in the water within 13.5 months (including 3 months away working and a 2 week vacation). The hull was complete, painted in & out, engine/shaft/prop in and almost functional, hull interior foam insulated and plywood skinned, ports and hatches in, mast built and stepped, and 2 setee bases built. One great thing about building your own boat is that you can put in whatever kind of interior is right for you - a crude or as refined as you like. We opted for a traditional interior for the same reasons Joseph opted not to have one - comfort, convience and functionality. How else can you fit everything for 2 into 36'? Things like a good functional shower, a nice galley with stove and oven, a wood stove, a comfortable saloon, plenty of tankage for water and fuel, lots of room to store food, clothing and equipment - everything to live aboard in comfort and to go sailing/cruising at the drop of a hat. We probably spent more time on it than the average Brent Boat builder because we planned on living aboard full time for the foreseeable future, but I think most people underestimate the time and money that go into an interior. It took us another year to build in the basics to move aboard, and then a third year to "finish" the boat - when are boats ever finished anyhow? Of course it would have taken less time if I had some woodworking skills before we started (I had never even owed a powersaw). Then again I had never done any metalworking before beginning the hull either. Fortunately Jean (my wife) had lots of finishing and painting experience. I always joke that we could build the next one in half the time. Jean says "There isn't going to be a "next" one!" We have lived aboard for over 3 years now and are very happy with the boat in all respects. She is warm, dry, & comfortable despite the cold and wet climate we live in, performs very well under power and sail, takes very little maintenance, and looks great. No regrets here! Mark & Jean "Costa Vida" Shearwater, BC|
2329|2329|2003-10-17 15:07:43|sae140|Stainless trim|It occurs to me that it would be a nifty idea to protect the transom edges from chipping with a s/s trim. I was thinking in terms of using 6-8mm s/s rod. Is this the best way to go ? The problem as I see it is how to incorporate the rod at build-time: at present the transom is cut to size and the hull-sides pulled onto it, with the excess being cut-away after welding. How then to incorporate the rod at the edge ? Maybe it's obvious, but I can't see it. Colin|
2330|2322|2003-10-17 15:41:48|edward_stoneuk|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|Mark K "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified" is available from McGraw- Hill of Blacklick OH Tel:1-800-262-4729. It has some very good ideas including jigs and tools to make. I am not at the interior stage yet but was advised by a boat surveyor recently to only use removable interior cladding and that only between the furniture and not behind it. Of course in more robust times anything more than two hooks for a hammock and a bucket for ablutions would have been considered the height of decadence. Regards, Ted|
2331|2322|2003-10-17 17:09:36|Don Taylor|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|I like this book too, BTW. it is by Fred P. Bingham who is Bruce Bingham's dad. Another (part of a) book worth reading is the chapter on "Chips and Shavings" in "This Old Boat" by Don Casey. Casey's approach assumes that you know absolutely nothing about joinery, and have no money for fancy tools. Worth at least borrowing from a public library. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Mark K > > "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified" is available from McGraw- > Hill of Blacklick OH Tel:1-800-262-4729. It has some very good ideas > including jigs and tools to make. |
2332|2322|2003-10-17 17:31:53|brentswain38|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|You'll save a lot of unneccessary work if you build your interior first, then cover only the foam insulation that is showing. For the last 20 years I've had nothing but foam in my lockers and under my bunks and despite piling stuff on the the foam for decades, it's still in good shape . There is no need to cover foam inside lockers.Just paint it with cheap latex paint. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Mark K > > "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified" is available from McGraw- > Hill of Blacklick OH Tel:1-800-262-4729. It has some very good ideas > including jigs and tools to make. I am not at the interior stage yet > but was advised by a boat surveyor recently to only use removable > interior cladding and that only between the furniture and not behind > it. Of course in more robust times anything more than two hooks for > a hammock and a bucket for ablutions would have been considered the > height of decadence. > > Regards, > Ted |
2333|2329|2003-10-17 17:37:17|brentswain38|Re: Stainless trim|It is a good idea to protect the corners of the transom with stainless. Rod works but it does stick out a bit . A friend was able to find stainless cope iron half round in a scrapyard and weld that on the transom projecting 1/8th inch beyond the hull. Another option here and elsewhere is to make several passes of stainless welding rod around the corner , then grind it smooth , but being careful not to grind enough to take all the stainless off. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > It occurs to me that it would be a nifty idea to protect the transom > edges from chipping with a s/s trim. I was thinking in terms of > using 6-8mm s/s rod. Is this the best way to go ? > > The problem as I see it is how to incorporate the rod at build- time: > at present the transom is cut to size and the hull-sides pulled onto > it, with the excess being cut-away after welding. > How then to incorporate the rod at the edge ? Maybe it's obvious, > but I can't see it. > > Colin |
2334|2322|2003-10-17 17:57:44|brentswain38|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|It only took me a couple of days to rough the interior in my 31 footer ( and I mean rough , just all the big stuff, unpainted and unsanded) The fine finishing was for doing in quiet ,pleasant anchorages with no deadlines,and only when I felt like it . In the meantime the boat was usable ,liveable and cruisable, and finishing things under those conditions was more like an enjoyable, part time hobby than like things that absolutely had to be done. To get the interior livable cost less that $50. Several years ago I met a guy who had bought a wet kit from Waterline Yachts; painted hull and deck with foam insulation and engine. He said that while people tell him that everything must be finished to the last bolt,before launching , he noticed that people who went cruising in unfinished boats took about the same amount of time as those who finished their boat on land, but they had a lot more fun in the meantime and were far less likly to want to change everything after a few years of cruising. I believe that the notion that you had to do all your hard work before having any fun is a left over from the masochistic puritan era, puritanism being accurately defined as "the terrible , nagging fear that someone , somewhere, just might be having a good time." Some say that if you launch early, you'll never get it done. I would say that what never gets done , doesn't really matter all that much, or you'd be motivated to do it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark_schlichting11" wrote: > -When my wife and I were considering building a boat, we felt > confident we could build an Origami hull with Brent's help, but my > wife asked "What about an interior"? I said "We'll put in something > quick and easy". Brent said he could help us throw one in in a few > days! We knew that wasn't likely but we also laughed at those who > told us the hull is only 10% of building a boat and that we shouldn't > launch until "the last screw has been turned". > > It just goes to show how everyone's expectations and experiences > differ. With 8 weeks of Brent's help and very little of anyone > else's, we had the boat in the water within 13.5 months (including 3 > months away working and a 2 week vacation). The hull was complete, > painted in & out, engine/shaft/prop in and almost functional, hull > interior foam insulated and plywood skinned, ports and hatches in, > mast built and stepped, and 2 setee bases built. > > One great thing about building your own boat is that you can put in > whatever kind of interior is right for you - a crude or as refined as > you like. We opted for a traditional interior for the same reasons > Joseph opted not to have one - comfort, convience and functionality. > How else can you fit everything for 2 into 36'? Things like a good > functional shower, a nice galley with stove and oven, a wood stove, a > comfortable saloon, plenty of tankage for water and fuel, lots of > room to store food, clothing and equipment - everything to live > aboard in comfort and to go sailing/cruising at the drop of a hat. > > We probably spent more time on it than the average Brent Boat builder > because we planned on living aboard full time for the foreseeable > future, but I think most people underestimate the time and money that > go into an interior. It took us another year to build in the basics > to move aboard, and then a third year to "finish" the boat - when are > boats ever finished anyhow? Of course it would have taken less time > if I had some woodworking skills before we started (I had never even > owed a powersaw). Then again I had never done any metalworking > before beginning the hull either. Fortunately Jean (my wife) had > lots of finishing and painting experience. I always joke that we > could build the next one in half the time. Jean says "There isn't > going to be a "next" one!" > > We have lived aboard for over 3 years now and are very happy with the > boat in all respects. She is warm, dry, & comfortable despite the > cold and wet climate we live in, performs very well under power and > sail, takes very little maintenance, and looks great. No regrets > here! > > Mark & Jean > "Costa Vida" > Shearwater, BC |
2335|2315|2003-10-17 18:17:02|brentswain38|Re: spreading the origami word|I'm grateful to Greg for dealing with the people who want to have built a large boat and don't want to get their hands dirty building it.I don't want to deal with them , and I'm glad someone is. I have never had any interest in that market and I am thus in no way in competition with Greg. I prefer to work for the proletariat, who want to build their own boat and may need a hand in the early stages , and who don't have a lot of money.My kinda people. The wider the spectrum of origami boats available the better it is for all of us and the sooner it will be when origami is accepted as the proper way to build a metal boat .Some members of the metal boatsociety are still bogged down in the " be reasonable and do it the hard way " school of thought . They continue building and setting up frames while the enlightened are cruising interesting places. Some have gotten the message tho.Go origami and leave the framing to the legal industry. Carry on Greg ; pardner. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "alex_christie" wrote: > As moderator, I feel a need to step in and state that as long as > whatever is being promoted has something to do with origami > boatbuilding there is no problem with it. The whole field of origami > boatbuilding and design is very narrow currently (2 designers in > N.A., as far as I know), and needs all the promotion it can get, even > including self-promotion of a given designer's work. The eye- rolling > response that Greg has had from Metal Boat Society members upon > mention of origami boatbuilding is the very same eye-rolling response > that Brent has encountered over the years in the same milieu, making > Brent and Greg kindred spirits in many ways, even if they are from > different ends of the origami spectrum. > > We need diversity in order to expand this field and promote the > building technique, and I would welcome anyone else out there who is > exprimenting with origami to come forward and promote what they have > to the group. They should be able to do so without fear of being run > out of town:-) > > I don't believe Greg is dabbling in origami boat design out of > charity for our interest alone -- he is investing his time and money > to make a legitimate attempt to forge a living out of something he > likes, rather than spending his days in suit and tie stuck in an > office only dreaming about designing, building and sailing boats. > It's free enterprise in the full tradition of most of the cultures > represented on this board, and as such I don't see much harm in it. > And, just as in any free market economy, if you don't like the price, > don't buy the product. Brent's pricing is a bargain compared to what > is out there, and if Greg's pricing is more on par with the usual > offerings out there I don't know what the issue is. Greg's ability > to take any design and make it origami should be a boon for anyone > out there wants a particular type of boat but would like > to "origamify" it. > > As we make our way through the advertising that Yahoo now makes us > wade through on our way to messages (which keeps this service free) > let's keep in mind that at least Greg's advertising is directly > related to our subject of interest, compared to the spam that plagues > all e-mail users the world over. If it is not to your liking, then > simply toggle your mail settings for the group to "web only" and skip > the messages you wish to avoid by reading them online. > > We need to keep the tone of the board friendly, open to new ideas, > and encouraging of designers nurturing a career in the field in order > to allow word of the building technique to flourish, so let's cut > some slack for this one of only two designers active in the field, ok? > > Yours, > > Alex |
2336|2308|2003-10-17 18:21:17|brentswain38|Re: origami cabin|All my cabins are built using the same origami techniques as the hull, just different shapes. Handrails should always be used wherever possible to protect corners from chipping . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > I've noticed that the cabins on many modern boats look a lot like > inverted boat hulls so naturally it occurred to me that it might be > possible to construct a metal cabin top using origami techniques. > Hide the chine with a grab rail or with some stylishly shaped windows > and everyone would swear that it had to be a glass boat. > > It could reduce the amount of metal fabrication required, but it could > make finishing the interior a bit more challenging depending on how > you did it. > > just thinking out loud, > > - Mark K |
2337|2304|2003-10-18 02:12:57|jim dorey|Re: promoting origami|Mike wrote: > So, if I understand you correctly, Jim, this is not a venue to ask > questions but, rather, one in which to promote products and services. sure, if you want, though i was thinking more along the lines of advertising being as good a way to assist us all in learning what's available. > I guess Colin, et al, should simply hang up the stinger and pull out > the wallet. Yeah, right. Do you then advise that we skip this group > and go to a boat broker or fab. shop, instead? i think we should all have a fab shop, so yeah, pull out the wallet. > I think that maybe you > should go sailing & give your head a shake. I joined the group when I > decided that I'd build a steel-hulled boat utilizing the origami > method and thought that those whom had gone before might have > valuable suggestions as to avoiding pitfalls, sourcing > material/parts, etc.. Have I missed something here? those advertising have gone through this stuff before, and if they are willing to share their expertise then they should be welcomed. very much like open source software, the difference between getting the design free or making it up yourself is that the experts can do a better job at providing a more standard product, as well as offering support to the owner. > If you and Greg > only wish to part with your opinion for a price then I suppose we > won't be hearing much more from you then. i'm sure they know that free advice won't make any difference, somebody wants to build a boat they'll find a way, they'll only have a bit harder time, and if someone who wants an origami boat sees that they don't have to put their brain in a blender to figure out how to get a nice boat thy've made a sale. someone who want's to build a boat will build a boat, even if a commersial product exists. > Nevermind, Colin, there are > enough of us here whom are willing and able to share our opinions and > abilities for free. -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2338|2315|2003-10-18 04:24:47|sae140|Re: spreading the origami word|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I'm grateful to Greg for dealing with the people who want to have > built a large boat and don't want to get their hands dirty building > it. If that was the full extent of the situation, then I wouldn't be making waves. But it isn't. I feel it's important to specify the context with which I'm concerned here, being that of ocean-going small craft built by amateur construction. Thus far, I've only criticised the value-for-money aspect of Greg's origami conversion plans, and I do accept that - once the information is known (which it wasn't previously) - then caveat emptor quite properly applies. But there is another, far more serious matter to be considered. What is supplied is (and I quote), "A set of plans that would allow you to fold up all the major components, including keels, rudders, deck, cabin, and wheelhouse is ... (followed by price)" Unless I am mistaken, what you get is the computerised Origami sheet folding information only. There is no mention of key information such as mast positioning, rig details, ballast and so forth, which are essential and provided as a matter of course with proven stock plans. More importantly, there is no mention of any construction details - not only deck fittings (the integrity of which can determine the survival or otherwise of a boat) but vitally important information such as the method of skeg attachment: concern for the failures of which - resulting in loss of the vessel - have been expressed elsewhere. The plans being offered might be adequate perhaps for the experienced metal boatbuilder or professional yard, but surely not for the amateur constructor who may be building for the very first time. My concern isn't about legal indemnity or anything like that, but a concern for those of my fellow human beings who will be taking their home-constructed boats offshore. In my opinion an attitude of caveat emptor is no longer acceptable here, especially in those countries where boat-building remains (thankfully) unregulated, and where the integrity of a designer's work becomes central to a safe and seaworthy build. Plans for safe amateur construction need to be both comprehensively detailed and of proven design, and between Brent's own book, stock plans, evidence afloat and positive feedback, he appears to have this well covered. I would respectfully suggest that anyone wishing to address the amateur self-build market by offering origami conversion plans could do a lot worse than follow his example. If they were to restrict their activities solely to the production of expensive turn-key boats of course, the owners of which are no doubt well-placed to sue if things go wrong, or recommend the design onwards according to their experiences, then my cautionary comments no longer apply. At this point I'll now bow out from this subject (unless specifically requested to clarify anything), for it certainly isn't my chosen role in life to act as an internet policman or critic. So - break over - and back to the welder .... With very best wishes (and safe sailing) to all, Colin [100% chilled-out and unstressed]|
2339|2339|2003-10-18 09:10:34|...|Re spreading the word|Brent has done an excellent job pioneering Origami construction, anyone who has designed and built boats will appreciate how much time he must have spent working on the patterns for the developed shape of the plates and the final design of the hull. His designs have proven to be good safe deep keeled cruising yachts as he has demonstrated by his very extensive deep sea voyages in the pacific. As some people are limited to where they can sail, the depth of water and the shortage of moorings for deep keel yachts they require a different hull design. Until recently no alternative origami designs have been available, a number the group have been working on ways to develop the plate shapes for the design of hull they require, but it is not that easy. Greg has developed methods using software for modelling the hull and develop the patterns of the plate shape and can then model the hull from the data to check that it is fair, that is the information some builders require. His series of photos of the construction of the 55 hull in aluminium are very interesting as they show all the stages of construction, these are of considerable value to any prospective builder, what ever the material they choose to use. If all they see is a large hull constructed from aluminium which is not the material they wish to use, which might be for someone who is unable to construct the hull themselves and is prepared to pay the price, then they should consider if they are able to take on they building of a steel yacht. Most commercial builders would not publish these photos as they would consider that all the development work to get to the stage of construction had cost them a considerable amount of money, and would not be prepared to put it into the public domain. This comes under the heading of intellectual property, which Brent's also has in his designs. I have visited a company where they were building aluminium yachts, they would only allow a very few people into the building area as they did not wish to disclose the construction methods. This protection of production techniques and processes is the rule in most industries. If a builder requires every small detail to be specified down to where a deck fitting is postioned,then he should go for one of Brent's designs but even then the design will not ensure a safe yacht, if the armature builder has not got reasonable welding and construction skills, he might still produce a yacht that was unsafe to go to sea in. Designers cannot be responsible for the finished yacht if the builder has not got the skills to construct all the part that go into a finished yacht. It is not my impression that Greg is aiming for the inexperienced first time builder, but for others who have more knowledge and experience, who know what they require and what Greg will provide them with i.e. all the data required to build the hull they require. Geoff|
2340|2340|2003-10-18 14:43:59|prairiemaidca|Books on interiors..|Hi All: I'm wondering if I'm part of an online soap opera??/ Anyway I have some of the previously mentioned books and would like to recomend another that was given to me by a fellow sailor who built his own coast 34 out here on the prairie's and just passed away. This book is quite old and probably only to be found in used book stores but I find the info on building interiors to be very informative. Building your dream boat by Charles E. Wood.. Martin and Betty Forster (Prairie Maid)|
2341|2339|2003-10-18 15:09:07|fmichael graham|Re: Re spreading the word|It seems that there is a great deal of speculation as to what detail Greg goes into when supplying patterns, etc.. I would suggest that only Greg can tell us exactly what is and is not included. Then again, perhaps, this is better dealt with by any interested parties contacting Greg directly, rather than expending so much time by posting to this group. On the topic of the purchase of plans, patterns, etc., however, I do think that one must be cautious in how they spend their hard earned dollars & with whom. I have been fabricating steel structures from blueprints for more than 20 years and know that it can be as frustrating to the experienced fabricator to have insufficient plans as to the amateur builder. If one wishes to purchase plans, patterns, or even complete kits, it would be wise to ascertain exactly what is/is not included and, if unsure, ask "the local fab. shop" if these components constitute a complete set. Those who buy incomplete sets allow ignorance/ego to interfere in the process and will find - in most cases - that a designer willingly ensures that the builder has all that he/she requires to succeed on the project. Remember, designers want to build a reputation as "the best", not as "the missing link". Even those whom seem less concerned with "fame & fortune" - can I throw you in here, Brent? - have pride in their workmanship and name(I understand that if you build a boat to Mr. Swain's. plans, he comes and lives with you until the project is finished - maybe that's why his boats are built so quickly). Mike Graham "..." wrote: Brent has done an excellent job pioneering Origami construction, anyone who has designed and built boats will appreciate how much time he must have spent working on the patterns for the developed shape of the plates and the final design of the hull. His designs have proven to be good safe deep keeled cruising yachts as he has demonstrated by his very extensive deep sea voyages in the pacific. As some people are limited to where they can sail, the depth of water and the shortage of moorings for deep keel yachts they require a different hull design. Until recently no alternative origami designs have been available, a number the group have been working on ways to develop the plate shapes for the design of hull they require, but it is not that easy. Greg has developed methods using software for modelling the hull and develop the patterns of the plate shape and can then model the hull from the data to check that it is fair, that is the information some builders require. His series of photos of the construction of the 55 hull in aluminium are very interesting as they show all the stages of construction, these are of considerable value to any prospective builder, what ever the material they choose to use. If all they see is a large hull constructed from aluminium which is not the material they wish to use, which might be for someone who is unable to construct the hull themselves and is prepared to pay the price, then they should consider if they are able to take on they building of a steel yacht. Most commercial builders would not publish these photos as they would consider that all the development work to get to the stage of construction had cost them a considerable amount of money, and would not be prepared to put it into the public domain. This comes under the heading of intellectual property, which Brent's also has in his designs. I have visited a company where they were building aluminium yachts, they would only allow a very few people into the building area as they did not wish to disclose the construction methods. This protection of production techniques and processes is the rule in most industries. If a builder requires every small detail to be specified down to where a deck fitting is postioned,then he should go for one of Brent's designs but even then the design will not ensure a safe yacht, if the armature builder has not got reasonable welding and construction skills, he might still produce a yacht that was unsafe to go to sea in. Designers cannot be responsible for the finished yacht if the builder has not got the skills to construct all the part that go into a finished yacht. It is not my impression that Greg is aiming for the inexperienced first time builder, but for others who have more knowledge and experience, who know what they require and what Greg will provide them with i.e. all the data required to build the hull they require. Geoff To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2342|2342|2003-10-18 17:17:35|info@easysoftwareinc.com|many thanks|I'd like to thank the members of this group for the many public and private messages of support. We will continue to promote origami construction to the best of our abilities. No one designing for origami is ever going to get rich in this business. We do this out of a love of boating. I read a quote in the Financial Post yesterday that I think is appropriate: "Science progresses by searching for the best possible answers to the questions facing us. It does not stop at one answer, however convenient, and then stifle all further debate - else it ceases to be science and becomes a pseudo-religion" As has been noted in this group, there is very little overlap between what Brent is doing and what we are doing. Brent is developing designs optimized for the lowest cost construction. We are developing designs to meet the needs of people that want or need something different. Think of it this way. Brent's boats are like the Chevy Cavalier, they are a lowest cost option. However, not everyone wants a Cavalier. We are designing for people that want/need something like an Accord, SUV, or a 4x4. I don't see it as any part of a class struggle. With 100 million people killed over various "ism's" in the past century, we don't need to debate this issue. People buy different cars because they have different needs. It is the same with boats. What we call "value for money" means simply this: If spending an extra $1 in building a boat returns more than $1 in added value, then it makes sense to spend an extra $1. Our patterns return value for money, because they add more value to the final boat than they cost. Anyone that has designed for origami and taken the time to do the performance analysis knows how difficult it is to achieve a good design without a great deal of trial and error. Brent built multiple boats to arrive at the current design. How many builders could afford to take this risk using their own patterns? We do the trial and error on our computers, not during the building. This flexibility allows us to achieve some pretty interesting shapes, as can be seen on our website. Our patterns return a predictable, fair hull shape when scaled to full size. We do the necessary calculations to ensure that performance and strength of the final boat matches its intended service. Our patterns are not a substitute for boat building knowledge. Rather, they are an aid to the builder to achieve a great hull shape. We don't recommend our patterns to someone without boat building experience. If you are a first time builder, then you should have us, or another builder help you. As people on this site are aware, we provide plenty of free advice. However, this is not a substitute for professional help. We would like to offer a standard pattern for amateur builders. Probably a 40 foot, center cockpit, pilot-house design similar in appearance to the G55, that can be rigged for either sail or power. To make this happen we probably need 5-10 people to come forward. This would allow us to develop the plans, along with a set of building instructions, and spread the costs so that the prices would be comparable with a standard design. Anyone out there that is contemplating a boat in the 40 foot range, power or sail, that likes the look of the G55 might wish to contact us and see if there is sufficient interest for us to develop a standard 40 foot design. We would likely offer the boat in alloy - with a steel hull and alloy house an option. I personally feel this would be a great boat for a cruising couple, or a small family. Big enough to go anywhere in safety and comfort, yet not so big as to overpower the crew. We would structure the construction options in such a way that it would be suitable for a wide range of budgets, however we would likely design something more like a Honda Civic than a Chevy Cavalier. Rather than lowest cost, we would be aiming more for the best possible value for the $$ spent. Some will say that the Cavalier gives better value for the money, others will say the Civic. We could debate this forever, but why bother? Lets get on with building some boats! Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2344|2342|2003-10-18 20:20:32|fmichael graham|Re: many thanks|Greg: I wish you the best of luck on your future endeavours with "origami" design and fabrication. Though I am not willing to finance your plan development, I will check your website prior to making the final decision on which designer's plans I will purchase and - who knows - maybe you will have a set of plans for a 40' steel-hull sailboat by then. When I joined this group, I had already considered design plans by; Roberts, Ganley, Bolt, Kasling, etc.. The most impressive steel-hulled sailboat that I had viewed, however, was a 30 footer, built by Brent Swain, according to it's owner. As one with practical experience in the steel industry and a long time mariner - both amateur & professional - I at once appreciated the vessel's quality construction. Upon joining this group, I discovered another impressive feature of Brent's boats, namely, the low cost of construction. To you this may be the Chevy Cavalier of boats. Then again, there are probably more Cavaliers on the road today - of any given vintage - than Cadillacs of the corresponding year. I think that, as Cavaliers and Caddys are sold from the same lots, there is enough room in this group for the discussion of more than one "brand" of boat design. I just hope that you are willing to "scale down the hard sell" in your messages so that it doesn't feel as if I just stepped onto the dealership's lot. I also hope that you understand that my support for steel over aluminum was not meant as a critique of your product. I suppose that the atmosphere in this group has changed, from one of building a high quality boat for the lowest price, to considering all options in the "origami" method. So be it. By the way, I assume that you are CWB certified and, therefore, a buyer will be assured of sufficient NDT on all weldments? The reason I ask is that I was shown a weld failure recently with a 3/16" diameter pocket(porosity) in 1/4" aluminum. The structure escaped testing in construction-phase and is now about $80,000 worth of scrap. Good luck, Mike Graham info@... wrote: I'd like to thank the members of this group for the many public and private messages of support. We will continue to promote origami construction to the best of our abilities. No one designing for origami is ever going to get rich in this business. We do this out of a love of boating. I read a quote in the Financial Post yesterday that I think is appropriate: "Science progresses by searching for the best possible answers to the questions facing us. It does not stop at one answer, however convenient, and then stifle all further debate - else it ceases to be science and becomes a pseudo-religion" As has been noted in this group, there is very little overlap between what Brent is doing and what we are doing. Brent is developing designs optimized for the lowest cost construction. We are developing designs to meet the needs of people that want or need something different. Think of it this way. Brent's boats are like the Chevy Cavalier, they are a lowest cost option. However, not everyone wants a Cavalier. We are designing for people that want/need something like an Accord, SUV, or a 4x4. I don't see it as any part of a class struggle. With 100 million people killed over various "ism's" in the past century, we don't need to debate this issue. People buy different cars because they have different needs. It is the same with boats. What we call "value for money" means simply this: If spending an extra $1 in building a boat returns more than $1 in added value, then it makes sense to spend an extra $1. Our patterns return value for money, because they add more value to the final boat than they cost. Anyone that has designed for origami and taken the time to do the performance analysis knows how difficult it is to achieve a good design without a great deal of trial and error. Brent built multiple boats to arrive at the current design. How many builders could afford to take this risk using their own patterns? We do the trial and error on our computers, not during the building. This flexibility allows us to achieve some pretty interesting shapes, as can be seen on our website. Our patterns return a predictable, fair hull shape when scaled to full size. We do the necessary calculations to ensure that performance and strength of the final boat matches its intended service. Our patterns are not a substitute for boat building knowledge. Rather, they are an aid to the builder to achieve a great hull shape. We don't recommend our patterns to someone without boat building experience. If you are a first time builder, then you should have us, or another builder help you. As people on this site are aware, we provide plenty of free advice. However, this is not a substitute for professional help. We would like to offer a standard pattern for amateur builders. Probably a 40 foot, center cockpit, pilot-house design similar in appearance to the G55, that can be rigged for either sail or power. To make this happen we probably need 5-10 people to come forward. This would allow us to develop the plans, along with a set of building instructions, and spread the costs so that the prices would be comparable with a standard design. Anyone out there that is contemplating a boat in the 40 foot range, power or sail, that likes the look of the G55 might wish to contact us and see if there is sufficient interest for us to develop a standard 40 foot design. We would likely offer the boat in alloy - with a steel hull and alloy house an option. I personally feel this would be a great boat for a cruising couple, or a small family. Big enough to go anywhere in safety and comfort, yet not so big as to overpower the crew. We would structure the construction options in such a way that it would be suitable for a wide range of budgets, however we would likely design something more like a Honda Civic than a Chevy Cavalier. Rather than lowest cost, we would be aiming more for the best possible value for the $$ spent. Some will say that the Cavalier gives better value for the money, others will say the Civic. We could debate this forever, but why bother? Lets get on with building some boats! Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2345|2342|2003-10-19 02:24:48|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: many thanks|Stephen, I certainly meant no offence. My understanding is that Brent is designing for lowest cost, which is a design criteria for the Cavalier, which has made it one of the most popular vehicles on the market. The Cavalier is a great car - an engineering success beyond anything most boat builders can ever hope to achieve. Our boats have all been built with owner participation - they got their hands dirty. My purpose in the analogy was simply to explain how our markets differ. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2346|2346|2003-10-19 13:06:30|edward_stoneuk|Bulwark Caps|While pulling the boat together, I have bent the bulwark cap pipes where the come-alongs were attached. What is the best way to put this right? For others, who may be pulling their boat together in the future, what is the best way to avoid it? Regards, Ted|
2347|2347|2003-10-19 13:07:44|Mark K|Thoughts on interiors|I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on quick and simple interiors, in the hope that we might generate some novel solutions. Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to offer. The obvious approach to covering the interior of the hull and coachroof is to use some kind of panel materal. The thing I don't like about this approach is that it always requires lots of little moldings and trim pieces at panel joints and corners etc. Unless this is carefully thought out and executed with skill and care it winds up looking really cobby. I was thinking that one possible way to cover large areas like the coachroof is with fabric, in the manner of a headliner in a car. Fabric comes in large sizes, a wide variety of colors and textures and is relativly inexpensive. Fabric requires little supporting structure and can be readily formed around single curvatures. It can be tucked into corners and behind cabinets and shelves. It can be attached with adhesives and for concave areas like the coachroof, it might be held in place with a few hardwood battens screwed or clipped to the roof structure. Fabric used this way has the drawback that it doesn't provide a solid surface so it wouldn't be appropriate where people might be touching it or leaning on it. I was also thinking that if sheet foam insulation was used inside the coachroof rather than spray foam, it could provide a smooth surface over which fabric could be laid with adhesive. It would probably be best to use a smooth fabric or one with a random pattern for ease of installation. A fabric with a little stretch to it might help as well. It should also be easy to clean and resistent to staining, perhaps a waterproof fabric, or even something like naugahyde. In an emergency, for instance a hole in the hull, fabric can be cut away quickly to access the hull. Comments? - Markk|
2348|2342|2003-10-19 13:10:31|...|many thanks|Hi Greg, I hope I might have made some people see that what you are doing they can learn from, but I think it is sour grapes. (do you use that saying over there) >I'd like to thank the members of this group for the many public and private messages of support. We will continue to promote origami construction to the best of our abilities. No one designing for origami is ever going to get rich in this business. We do this out of a love of boating. I think some people think you are making lots of money, but I know only too well how long it takes to get to this stage. >I read a quote in the Financial Post yesterday that I think is appropriate: "Science progresses by searching for the best possible answers to the questions facing us. It does not stop at one answer, however convenient, and then stifle all further debate - else it ceases to be science and becomes a pseudo-religion" Some have a very blinkered view, they don't see they can learn and benefit from your experience >I don't see it as any part of a class struggle. Some do, they see a big yacht and think that is for someone with money, they don't realize that the person buying the big yacht is actually subsidising the development program > Brent built multiple boats to arrive at the current design. I thought he must have done, being so far away it is not possible to find out about his mistakes or the hull which is not fair. >We do the trial and error on our computers, not during the building. This flexibility allows us to achieve some pretty interesting shapes, as can be seen on our website. Our patterns return a predictable, fair hull shape when scaled to full size. I fear that the hulls built from some peoples orange peel will be disasters. >Our patterns are not a substitute for boat building knowledge. Rather, they are an aid to the builder to achieve a great hull shape. We don't recommend our patterns to someone without boat building experience. This is the point I was trying to get across to the people, not sure if I did! > We could debate this forever, but why bother? Lets get on with building some boats! It appears that Colin is going to build a Wylow from his orange peel pattern or has someone converted to origami it for him? Has he got permission from the designer of the Wylow to use his design or is it in the public domain. I look forward to seeing more photos as you progress, I have learnt a lot from studying them. The hull design I am interested in would be a scaled down version of your 55 with a shallow draft and a lifting keel or centreboard, this would enable the yacht to sit in a mud berth. The place where I can keep my yacht has only 760mm 30" of water at high water. Keep up the good work, It might be an idea to start you own group so that the more enlightened can discuses developments, design and software which appears to be like a red rag to a bull to some people. Where are you building? if I visit my sister who lives in Vancouver I would like to visit you. Best wishes Geoff Cheshire England|
2349|2347|2003-10-19 16:32:08|Joseph Smith|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Sounds like a good idea to me, been kicking it around myself for a while. You can get vinyl headliner material on sale now at www.sailrite.com, also a lot of other material available,|
2350|2347|2003-10-19 16:33:00|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|I have seen white PVC panels used with good results. Sometimes sold as door skins. Easy to shape and keep clean. Formica panels give a good result, but are harder to work with. A thin wooden molding strip between the panels makes a nice accent, and hides the seams. Fabric might be hard to keep clean. In general I have had good results with PVC. I use PVC pipe to protect the paint on steel pipes from anchors, chain, etc. Cheap and easy to work with. It gets brittle over time in the sun, but even in the tropics it lasts many years. We built a permanent sun shade over the back of the Lazy Bones using thick walled PVC pipe, fittings, and glue, lashed to the stanchions. Covered it with shade cloth. It has now been in service 10 years without incident, at a fraction of the cost and weight of doing it in stainless. The shade cloth keeps out the sun, but allows wind and rain to pass through, and has allowed the awning to remain in place through hurricane force winds. You can see a picture of the awning here: http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Cruising/LB_Yard.htm Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark K To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 3:18 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Thoughts on interiors I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on quick and simple interiors, in the hope that we might generate some novel solutions. Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to offer. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2351|2347|2003-10-19 21:01:00|Jim Phillips|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Mark, For the interior lining we roughly cut and installed plywood and then covered it with a thick cream-coloured carpet. This was mainly for the ceiling and the upper part of the interior walls. We used an industrial stapler to hold the carpet to the plywood while the glue dried. The overall method was cheap, quick and looked fabulous. (Often got jokes from other yachties about walking on a carpeted ceiling during a capsize.) Months later, while out cruising, we took out the staples with needle nosed pliers. Jim. --- Mark K wrote: > I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on > quick and simple > interiors, in the hope that we might generate some > novel solutions. > Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to > offer. http://personals.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Personals New people, new possibilities. FREE for a limited time.|
2352|2352|2003-10-19 21:30:30|alex_christie|Letter from Genoa 55 owner|Dear group, The following is an interesting letter sent to me by Greg Janes, the owner of the new Genoa 55 being built in Cowichan Lake at the Origamimagic boatyard there. It turns out I met Greg Janes about 8 years ago when he was onboard his 48 foot wooden Herreshoff ketch CANDLEWIN in Comox -- it's a small world! The successful marriage of beauty and strength in that classic boat most certainly counted among the influences which would later sway my decision to become a shipwright at the turn of this century. His letter here offers for us a different perspective on Greg Elliot's boat design: "Hello folks! My first response on this forum, although I have been following the banter found here for some time and have enjoyed the exchanges amongst the various members. To introduce myself, it would suffice to say that I am the owner of the new vessel under construction at the Origamimagic yard in Lake Cowichan, the G55 or Genoa 55 in honor of my good lady of the same name. I had no intention of joining into the fray as it were between the Swainers and Mr.Elliot but I feel that Greg has been much misrepresented in his role as designer of heaven forbid, an actual alternative to what is available on the market for low cost boat builders/owners. I have been working with Greg Elliot and Ron Pearson for several weeks now on the construction of my new vessel, a 55 foot Bermuda class high performance cutter. I would like to point out that I came to this project with my eyes wide open. I have thousands of sea miles (over 50,000) on my present boat, a 48 foot Herreshoff ketch which I have owned for 27 yearsand which I constructed with George Brugom in the Comox Valley. I have hundreds of thousands of miles on commercial freighters, most in the capacity as master. I have worked on wood, steel and alloy vessels of all types. Big deal, I say as well. Just wanted to clarify that I am not a complete neophyte, trusting in the smooth talk of just another salesman. For several years I have been planning to change my cruising platform and after our last blast to Easter Is. and back via Ecuador and French Polynesia in 2000 to 2002. I approached Ron and Greg about moving on with my plans. I brought along the ideas and concepts for the kind of boat I wanted. I won't get into the pro's and con's of one design over another at this point but will say that I had already seen some of their work and was impressed. The plans I brought were quite a departure from the usual origami style and I was curious to see what they could do with them. At this point I was prepared to abandon the origami process and go "conventional" if need be. I feel that it is here that the two of them really shone. Within a very few short days a prototype model was made. With further consultation, this was refined (all on computer) and a few more models were made, a final one at 1/12 scale being made of alloy to give a fairer representation and to confirm the accuracy of the plan (more for my sake than Greg and Ron's I suspect). Over the next few weeks (seven) I was actively involved in the building process so had a chance to work closely with Greg and Ron and continue "to get my hands dirty" everyday. I can not state strongly enough the commitment that these two have given to the project. The level of expertise and dedication to researching the best techniques and materials and constant refinement of the process has never failed to impress me. My gal and I now have a beautifully faired, exceptionally strong hull exactly what we originally wanted. It is triple chine with no knuckles at the ends of the chines. It has a very impressive U-shaped bow and the big fat ass stern with sugar scoop that I asked for. I won't get into justifying that one here though. I also have complete stability information for the vessel as well as rig design, interior and the deck plan. Would anyone start a boat project without knowing exactly the boats angle of vanishing stability?! This is the difference in service. Greg and Ron offer the ability to take virtually any design concept and create an origami pattern for it. It is too bad that some take this as an afront to the concept of origami or even Brent Swains creations. They are indeed apples and oranges. I have helped construct a Brent boat with my brother-in-law and I have always been impressed with the simplicity and strength of the design. He has helped put alot of people out on the water that maybe wouldn't be able to otherwise. Everyone is right here, it shouldn't be seen as a contest, just an alternative and we are all learning. What ever it takes to get out on the water, that is a good thing. As someone once said, anyboat is a good boat! Our vessel is not for everyone, but the alternatives are out there. We would welcome any one from this forum for a tour of the shop if they care to contact us. Cheers, Greg Janes candlewin@...|
2353|2347|2003-10-19 22:22:28|darryl_marlene|Re: Thoughts on interiors|--- I used a fabric over plywood in my Brent Swain 36 ,the fabric is called boat liner and is used in glass boats alot. you just glue it on and add trim where needed..It stands up great in the marine enviroment and is washable. I will have the boat in Nanaimo Dec & Jan if anybody wants to see it. Darryl S.V. Ikale Savary Island B.C. In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on quick and simple > interiors, in the hope that we might generate some novel solutions. > Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to offer. > > The obvious approach to covering the interior of the hull and > coachroof is to use some kind of panel materal. The thing I don't > like about this approach is that it always requires lots of little > moldings and trim pieces at panel joints and corners etc. Unless this > is carefully thought out and executed with skill and care it winds up > looking really cobby. > > I was thinking that one possible way to cover large areas like the > coachroof is with fabric, in the manner of a headliner in a car. > Fabric comes in large sizes, a wide variety of colors and textures and > is relativly inexpensive. > > Fabric requires little supporting structure and can be readily formed > around single curvatures. It can be tucked into corners and behind > cabinets and shelves. It can be attached with adhesives and for > concave areas like the coachroof, it might be held in place with a few > hardwood battens screwed or clipped to the roof structure. > > Fabric used this way has the drawback that it doesn't provide a solid > surface so it wouldn't be appropriate where people might be touching > it or leaning on it. > > I was also thinking that if sheet foam insulation was used inside the > coachroof rather than spray foam, it could provide a smooth surface > over which fabric could be laid with adhesive. > > It would probably be best to use a smooth fabric or one with a random > pattern for ease of installation. A fabric with a little stretch to > it might help as well. It should also be easy to clean and resistent > to staining, perhaps a waterproof fabric, or even something like > naugahyde. > > In an emergency, for instance a hole in the hull, fabric can be cut > away quickly to access the hull. > > Comments? > > - Markk |
2354|2322|2003-10-20 00:05:27|Mark K|Re: You've got a hull, now what?|Thanks for the tips on the books, everyone. The local library had "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified", as well as Ferenc Mate's "From a Bare Hull" and "Finely Fitted Yacht", the latter two for reference only, but they looked interesting enough that I might buy them. Markk|
2355|2346|2003-10-20 02:14:07|jim dorey|Re: Bulwark Caps|loadbinder straps around the whole boat. edward_stoneuk wrote: > While pulling the boat together, I have bent the bulwark cap pipes > where the come-alongs were attached. What is the best way to put > this right? For others, who may be pulling their boat together in > the future, what is the best way to avoid it? > > Regards, > Ted -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2356|2347|2003-10-20 03:52:08|fmichael graham|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Mark: I've read your post and the replies - so far - with great interest. I went through the hassle of insulating and panelling my "plastic" boat and hope that my contribution may be of some value. I should apologize in advance, as most of what I am about to write may be of the "obvious" nature and you may have considered all of this. 1) Prior to tearing my boat interior out, there was no insulation and only a bit of "boat liner", about the rear quarter-berth hullside. My first attempt was to use foam panelling under plywood. I thought I was the "genius" of boat interiors because it no longer "rained" inside my boat - for about a year. Oh, sure, the plywood showed some dampness - after the mahogany veneer began to fall off - but there were no significant raindrops falling on me as I slept(except where there were screws-no countersinking/dowel plugs). When I removed a panel, in the following year, to begin re-panelling with 1"x3" mahogany strips, I discovered that the foam panels had disintegrated and moisture had collected between the panels & hull/deckside. And so started renovation #2! 2) With any boat - especially metal-hulled/decked - "sweating" is an expected pain. I would caution against using any material-covering that does not breathe well. With metals, this is most important, as air circulation will help to dry the moisture on inner metal surfaces, reducing opportunities for the rust to set in(of course, the inner hull is painted, but moving air makes a big difference). Also, breathable fabric will allow warm, dry air to enter. With a wood interior, you will have to put in a lot of vents which - if you buy them instead of fabricate them - cost a bundle, even used. I would also caution against using the stuff that they use for motorhomes as they eventually rot and, with a boat, your dealing with salt water. Brent's suggestion to not cover the insulation where it isn't seen, sounds good, I was going to try that but I figured that the cupboard contents would beat the heck out of the insulation. I guess not. I hope there's something useful in all of this. I will build my first steel boat with a wood interior because it is warm and fairly dry, and I have masochistic tendencies. Good luck Mike Graham Mark K wrote: I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on quick and 2simple interiors, in the hope that we might generate some novel solutions. Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to offer. The obvious approach to covering the interior of the hull and coachroof is to use some kind of panel materal. The thing I don't like about this approach is that it always requires lots of little moldings and trim pieces at panel joints and corners etc. Unless this is carefully thought out and executed with skill and care it winds up looking really cobby. I was thinking that one possible way to cover large areas like the coachroof is with fabric, in the manner of a headliner in a car. Fabric comes in large sizes, a wide variety of colors and textures and is relativly inexpensive. Fabric requires little supporting structure and can be readily formed around single curvatures. It can be tucked into corners and behind cabinets and shelves. It can be attached with adhesives and for concave areas like the coachroof, it might be held in place with a few hardwood battens screwed or clipped to the roof structure. Fabric used this way has the drawback that it doesn't provide a solid surface so it wouldn't be appropriate where people might be touching it or leaning on it. I was also thinking that if sheet foam insulation was used inside the coachroof rather than spray foam, it could provide a smooth surface over which fabric could be laid with adhesive. It would probably be best to use a smooth fabric or one with a random pattern for ease of installation. A fabric with a little stretch to it might help as well. It should also be easy to clean and resistent to staining, perhaps a waterproof fabric, or even something like naugahyde. In an emergency, for instance a hole in the hull, fabric can be cut away quickly to access the hull. Comments? - Markk To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2357|2347|2003-10-20 10:14:02|edward_stoneuk|Re: Thoughts on interiors|www.fairlierestorations.com has some photos of the interiors of the classic fife yachts that they restore. Some (See Sirius)are lined with wooden laths probably about 1¾" wide by ½" deep at ½" spacing. Behind them the hull interior is painted white. It gives a light and airy feel to the inside. I thought about doing something similar over painted blown insulation. Regards, Ted|
2358|2347|2003-10-20 19:36:19|richytill|Re: interiors/fitting out at the wharf|Ted, I am working on the interior. Good spray foam is surprisingly tough--as in 30 psi multiplied by contact surface area. This works out to litterally tons of adhesion. As Brent's book points out, once the foam is in, the bulkheads and firing strips stiffen up to the point you can hang further joinery with complete confidence. Once the latex paint (I sprayed a 5 gallon bucket of exterior on for next to nothing)is on you can walk around on it just like any floor. If I had to do it again I would put even more conduit in the foam to route wires and pipes. I plan to have fun doing the joinery. A pile of flawless douglas fir, yellow cedar and then some teak arrived here at the right moment. It came from various abandoned projects. When you fit out at the wharf people show up to chat--it consumes time but I find I learn a lot from the real old timers who built fish boats from what they had. One old timer who crewed whalers in the arctic has provided some rare insights into life aboard small craft in the high lattitudes. Some have stashes of material they are willing or anxious to sell. The stack of 1" X 4" fir was 32' long and had been sitting in a shed for 18 years to build a boat that never happened. Some people just give away wood to get rid of it. Fitting out in the water also gives the opportunity to watch the trim and the waterline. One other thing--it reminds you that boats move quite violently at times and should be fitted out accordingly. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > www.fairlierestorations.com has some photos of the interiors of the > classic fife yachts that they restore. Some (See Sirius)are lined > with wooden laths probably about 1¾" wide by ½" deep at ½" spacing. > Behind them the hull interior is painted white. It gives a light and > airy feel to the inside. I thought about doing something similar > over painted blown insulation. > > Regards, > Ted |
2359|2346|2003-10-20 19:40:50|richytill|Re: Bulwark Caps|Ted, have you welded the deck on yet--this reflects on your options for straightening the pipe? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > While pulling the boat together, I have bent the bulwark cap pipes > where the come-alongs were attached. What is the best way to put > this right? For others, who may be pulling their boat together in > the future, what is the best way to avoid it? > > Regards, > Ted |
2360|2360|2003-10-20 23:06:11|info@easysoftwareinc.com|origami power cat|One of the stumbling points in building a boat can be the time required to build the interiors. There is no origami equivalent, and while the hull can go together very quickly, it can take quite a bit longer to achieve a "finished" interior. The basic problem is that the insides of a boat are "round". There are few square "walls" to fit to, thus traditional "square" construction as used in houses doesn't work. You can just go down to the local furniture store and buy a set of cupboards, a table or a bed and install them in a yacht. However, there is a possible solution for power boat enthusiasts. Mobile-home and trailers provide a pre-fabricated living space. Many of these are relatively light weight, and have furniture bolted down, being designed to be moved on wheels. Set on top of two origami hulls ("amahs"), the possibility exists to rapidly create a very comfortable, low cost power cat. While not intended for offshore, with proper attention to the size of the amahs, such a design could give very good performance in inshore waters. Power cats have a large share of the power boat market in OZ, where they are used extensively behind the Great Barrier Reef. When we were in Oz, we were asked to design origami hulls for power cats, but we didn't have the technology at the time. We now have the technology to design the hulls. We have a very similar conditions here in the Straights of Georgia, as well as in our many lakes and rivers. Perhaps it is time to consider origami power cats. Used mobile-homes and trailers can often be purchased very inexpensively. The layout is such that they are perfectly acceptable for cruising on a stable base such as a catamaran in relatively protected waters. Thick undercoating can be applied to the mobile-home prior to attaching to the hulls to prevent corrosion, with provision to repaint as required. Wives and significant others love the built in washer, dryer, stove, micro-wave, fridge, freezer, bath and full sized accommodations - it is just like living ashore. A huge improvement over the cramped quarters in many yachts. The amahs are long, narrow, semi-wave piercing, with room for thousands of gallons of water, fuel, and waste. The large capacity tanks are intended to allow extended cruising for weeks or months without re-supply. There is no living space intended in the hulls. The mobile home rides high above the waves, with access via stairs at the stern. The roof has a flying bridge or pilot house, sun deck and awning. The narrow cat hulls provide excellent fuel economy, and can be easily driven past 1.5 DWL, even when operating in displacement mode. They are not prone to rolling, which makes them a favorite will those prone to motion sickness. Amahs can be steel or alloy at the owners preference. Dual propellers ensure maneuverability. Engines can be in the hulls, or for low cost construction a diesel engine can salvaged from a front wheel drive vehicle and placed in a utility room at the rear of the mobile-home. One axle might drive the 120V genset. The other axle a hydraulic motor to power the propellers, dual anchors, and hydraulic davits. An alternative drive would be a long-tail, with a swivel for maneuverability. Full width davits at the stern can lift a good sized FG run-about with outboard. When not in use, the run-about is tied at the stern, between the hulls, alongside the stairs. In an emergency, the run-about will push the power cat from its stern tie-up position. Anyone interested in a power boat for inshore cruising might consider such a design. It is a bit "out there" but it is something we have talked about for many years. If we can get some interested parties we will do the designs and help as required to build them. With a bit of care the resulting boat would be very acceptable to the eye. Because the interiors are already done, such a boat could probably be completed by an amateur builder in a fraction of the time required to complete a mono-hull, likely provide much more living space for the $$ spent, and provide many years of comfortable cruising. It isn't for offshore, but for 95% of the people interested in a comfortable live-aboard and/or cruising power boat it would certainly fit the bill. greg elliott yacht lazy bones http://www.origamimagic.com|
2361|733|2003-10-21 05:11:37|Phillip Allen|Brent's book|do I still use the Laurel Dr. address? Two checks...$20Cd plus $10Cd...what is US amount for check? I think I remember something about Alex taking book orders for Brent's book??? Phillip in Arkansas|
2362|2362|2003-10-21 05:14:42|Phillip Allen|Disregard book question|within 30 seconds of posting my question I found information...oh well :)|
2363|2346|2003-10-21 05:15:40|edward_stoneuk|Re: Bulwark Caps and timber|Richard, I haven't welded the deck yet but have the fore deck in position and intend welding it this week. I have built a pipe bending frame about 3' wide to use with my hydraulic jack. This bends the bulwark pipe OK but it is very heavy to lift on and off and it tends to kink the pipe, put a smaller bend in it than the original one. I was wondering if other builders had a similar problem and found that when they welded the decks on it pulled the unwanted bends out of the pipe and trued it up ok. I have found sometimes that when I try to put distortion problems right that if I had left it subsequent operations would have corrected the problem anyway. I don't envy others but if I did I would envy you your sources of timber and chats with the old timers. We have just been given some old pallets, large ones 16' long that were used to transport plastic sheet. The wood mostly splits for a pastime and some of the serrated nails are impossible to extract so we have disassembled them using a 3" wide sharpened brick chisel which lessens the split wood and shears the nails quite easily. We have used the timber to make a set of stairs to access the deck as we are building it and will make staging so that we can store and work on things at deck height, a bit like a dry land wharf. Regards, Ted|
2364|2347|2003-10-21 19:20:23|Mark K|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Mike, I wasn't sure how extensive the condensation problem would be in an insulated boat. I thought that a lot of fiberglass production cruisers use the inside surface of the coachroof's cored laminate as the interior surface with a simple texturing applied. Perhaps what I was seeing was some sort of liner, though it felt really solid, or perhaps these boats are generally wetter inside than I thought. I'm speaking here of boats like the Catalina 350 which I recently had the opportunity to inspect. In any event your post underscores the need to avoid pockets between the foam and the hull where condensation could build up, as well as the need to provide air circulation behind the covering and to channel condensation down to the bilge while minimizing contact with wood and other vunerable materials in the interior. I think a waterproof fabric might help here given that it would have few seams and fasteners to leak. It seems that there are multitudes of things to consider when building a boat, but doing so beforehand will hopefully save time and effort in the end. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Mark: > I've read your post and the replies - so far - with great interest. I went through the hassle of insulating and panelling my "plastic" boat and hope that my contribution may be of some value. I should apologize in advance, as most of what I am about to write may be of the "obvious" nature and you may have considered all of this. > > 1) Prior to tearing my boat interior out, there was no insulation and only a bit of "boat liner", about the rear quarter-berth hullside. My first attempt was to use foam panelling under plywood. I thought I was the "genius" of boat interiors because it no longer "rained" inside my boat - for about a year. Oh, sure, the plywood showed some dampness - after the mahogany veneer began to fall off - but there were no significant raindrops falling on me as I slept(except where there were screws-no countersinking/dowel plugs). When I removed a panel, in the following year, to begin re-panelling with 1"x3" mahogany strips, I discovered that the foam panels had disintegrated and moisture had collected between the panels & hull/deckside. And so started renovation #2! > > 2) With any boat - especially metal-hulled/decked - "sweating" is an expected pain. I would caution against using any material-covering that does not breathe well. With metals, this is most important, as air circulation will help to dry the moisture on inner metal surfaces, reducing opportunities for the rust to set in(of course, the inner hull is painted, but > moving air makes a big difference). Also, breathable fabric will allow warm, dry air to enter. With a wood interior, you will have to put in a lot of vents which - if you buy them instead of fabricate them - cost a bundle, even used. I would also caution against using the stuff that they use for motorhomes as they eventually rot and, with a boat, your dealing with salt water. > > Brent's suggestion to not cover the insulation where it isn't seen, sounds good, I was going to try that but I figured that the cupboard contents would beat the heck out of the insulation. I guess not. > > I hope there's something useful in all of this. I will build my first steel boat with a wood interior because it is warm and fairly dry, and I have masochistic tendencies. > Good luck > Mike Graham |
2365|2346|2003-10-21 20:27:47|richytill|Re: Bulwark Caps and timber|Ted, your frame and jack should work OK. The trick with pipe is to make a shoe to fit on the jack ram to prevent kinks. I use a longditudinal, half (180 deg.) slice of pipe one size over to make the shoe. It should be possible to fair the bulwark cap to very fine tolerances with the hydraulic jack. We do this on railings and it works a treat. As for the wheight . . . sounds like you need some kind of a boom to hang a come-along on??? rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Richard, > > I haven't welded the deck yet but have the fore deck in position and > intend welding it this week. I have built a pipe bending frame about > 3' wide to use with my hydraulic jack. This bends the bulwark pipe > OK but it is very heavy to lift on and off and it tends to kink the > pipe, put a smaller bend in it than the original one. I was > wondering if other builders had a similar problem and found that when > they welded the decks on it pulled the unwanted bends out of the pipe > and trued it up ok. I have found sometimes that when I try to put > distortion problems right that if I had left it subsequent operations > would have corrected the problem anyway. > I don't envy others but if I did I would envy you your sources of > timber and chats with the old timers. We have just been given some > old pallets, large ones 16' long that were used to transport plastic > sheet. The wood mostly splits for a pastime and some of the serrated > nails are impossible to extract so we have disassembled them using a > 3" wide sharpened brick chisel which lessens the split wood and > shears the nails quite easily. We have used the timber to make a set > of stairs to access the deck as we are building it and will make > staging so that we can store and work on things at deck height, a bit > like a dry land wharf. > Regards, > Ted |
2366|2346|2003-10-21 20:53:22|richytill|Re: welding fore-deck next week|Ted: further thought. Typically, we would not weld any seam of a deck until the whole hull was fitted together and tacked evenly. There are some exceptions--welds that need to be done prior to bending, or, the sole plate of the keel for example. The vessel would then be welded all over in sequence so as to pull together evenly and avoid distortion, uneven stresses etc.. Perhaps you have a strategic reason for welding the fore-deck at this phase but generally it is best to leave every weld you can until all is tacked. Stitch welding deck beams etc. in the flat position would not be a concern here--big seams and fillets that pull are the issue. Many of us have learned from bitter experience the cost of welding too soon. Often, it is simply a case of being able to go back and adjust, correct or modify without having to cut the whole thing apart with the inevitable mess that follows; usually it is about the control of distortion. All the best with the deck. Have fun, rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "richytill" wrote: > Ted, your frame and jack should work OK. The trick with pipe is to > make a shoe to fit on the jack ram to prevent kinks. I use a > longditudinal, half (180 deg.) slice of pipe one size over to make > the shoe. It should be possible to fair the bulwark cap to very fine > tolerances with the hydraulic jack. We do this on railings and it > works a treat. As for the wheight . . . sounds like you need some > kind of a boom to hang a come-along on??? rt > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Richard, > > > > I haven't welded the deck yet but have the fore deck in position > and > > intend welding it this week. I have built a pipe bending frame > about > > 3' wide to use with my hydraulic jack. This bends the bulwark pipe > > OK but it is very heavy to lift on and off and it tends to kink the > > pipe, put a smaller bend in it than the original one. I was > > wondering if other builders had a similar problem and found that > when > > they welded the decks on it pulled the unwanted bends out of the > pipe > > and trued it up ok. I have found sometimes that when I try to put > > distortion problems right that if I had left it subsequent > operations > > would have corrected the problem anyway. > > I don't envy others but if I did I would envy you your sources of > > timber and chats with the old timers. We have just been given some > > old pallets, large ones 16' long that were used to transport > plastic > > sheet. The wood mostly splits for a pastime and some of the > serrated > > nails are impossible to extract so we have disassembled them using > a > > 3" wide sharpened brick chisel which lessens the split wood and > > shears the nails quite easily. We have used the timber to make a > set > > of stairs to access the deck as we are building it and will make > > staging so that we can store and work on things at deck height, a > bit > > like a dry land wharf. > > Regards, > > Ted |
2369|2347|2003-10-21 23:55:20|paull01|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Here's a link to a 31 Swain for sale in S.F. with a nice looking interior. It looks like tongue and groove pine. http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/index.html.en Type in Brent Swain for the builder. Paul --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on quick and simple > interiors, in the hope that we might generate some novel solutions. > Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to offer. > |
2370|2347|2003-10-22 02:01:32|Mark K|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Fabric or carpet over plywood or some other panel material could be a good way to go. The panels would support the fabric and the fabric would cover the joints in the panels. Have you ever had problems with dampness from sweating? Is your hull foamed? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > > Mark, > > For the interior lining we roughly cut and installed > plywood and then covered it with a thick > cream-coloured carpet. This was mainly for the > ceiling and the upper part of the interior walls. We > used an industrial stapler to hold the carpet to the > plywood while the glue dried. The overall method was > cheap, quick and looked fabulous. (Often got jokes > from other yachties about walking on a carpeted > ceiling during a capsize.) > > Months later, while out cruising, we took out the > staples with needle nosed pliers. > > Jim. |
2371|2347|2003-10-22 05:12:47|fmichael graham|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Mark: I haven't seen the newer Catalina350, so I don't know whether or not it is insulated. Most production boats are not insulated, however, and - as you say - are sandwich construction for deck material. condensation is common and not a big deal if you only day-sail or go for short trips(weekenders). With metal, I would suggest that you would want maximum exposure to circulating air. Your insulation should absorb & distribute moisture to the "outer" surface(the boat's interior) as long as the insulation is not completely impregnable. From this "outer" surface, venting in your covering material aids in the evaporation of the moisture. You will always have a modicum of moisture. I think that this is where it would be valuable to have input from those in the group who do/did liveaboard - regardless of type of boat - as those of us whom have done so - such as myself - have all experienced the joy of waking up "on lake michigan", "in a rain forest". If Brent reads this post, perhaps he could share his experiences/opinion with us - as he has, apparently, spent much time living onboard his creations. You will find, Mark, that the most popular interior cushions of a boat are made of breathable material. This is not because they do not absorb moisture, but because they dry faster. Hey! how about material with a lot of those small diameter vents that they use in cockpit cushions? Still, any kind of wood is going to be the warmest. Of course, this is from the perspective of one whom lives on the west coast of Canada. Regards, Mike Graham Mark K wrote: Mike, I wasn't sure how extensive the condensation problem would be in an insulated boat. I thought that a lot of fiberglass production cruisers use the inside surface of the coachroof's cored laminate as the interior surface with a simple texturing applied. Perhaps what I was seeing was some sort of liner, though it felt really solid, or perhaps these boats are generally wetter inside than I thought. I'm speaking here of boats like the Catalina 350 which I recently had the opportunity to inspect. In any event your post underscores the need to avoid pockets between the foam and the hull where condensation could build up, as well as the need to provide air circulation behind the covering and to channel condensation down to the bilge while minimizing contact with wood and other vunerable materials in the interior. I think a waterproof fabric might help here given that it would have few seams and fasteners to leak. It seems that there are multitudes of things to consider when building a boat, but doing so beforehand will hopefully save time and effort in the end. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Mark: > I've read your post and the replies - so far - with great interest. I went through the hassle of insulating and panelling my "plastic" boat and hope that my contribution may be of some value. I should apologize in advance, as most of what I am about to write may be of the "obvious" nature and you may have considered all of this. > > 1) Prior to tearing my boat interior out, there was no insulation and only a bit of "boat liner", about the rear quarter-berth hullside. My first attempt was to use foam panelling under plywood. I thought I was the "genius" of boat interiors because it no longer "rained" inside my boat - for about a year. Oh, sure, the plywood showed some dampness - after the mahogany veneer began to fall off - but there were no significant raindrops falling on me as I slept(except where there were screws-no countersinking/dowel plugs). When I removed a panel, in the following year, to begin re-panelling with 1"x3" mahogany strips, I discovered that the foam panels had disintegrated and moisture had collected between the panels & hull/deckside. And so started renovation #2! > > 2) With any boat - especially metal-hulled/decked - "sweating" is an expected pain. I would caution against using any material-covering that does not breathe well. With metals, this is most important, as air circulation will help to dry the moisture on inner metal surfaces, reducing opportunities for the rust to set in(of course, the inner hull is painted, but > moving air makes a big difference). Also, breathable fabric will allow warm, dry air to enter. With a wood interior, you will have to put in a lot of vents which - if you buy them instead of fabricate them - cost a bundle, even used. I would also caution against using the stuff that they use for motorhomes as they eventually rot and, with a boat, your dealing with salt water. > > Brent's suggestion to not cover the insulation where it isn't seen, sounds good, I was going to try that but I figured that the cupboard contents would beat the heck out of the insulation. I guess not. > > I hope there's something useful in all of this. I will build my first steel boat with a wood interior because it is warm and fairly dry, and I have masochistic tendencies. > Good luck > Mike Graham To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2372|2347|2003-10-22 05:23:25|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Fabric and carpet surface in general in the tropics can be a problem, as they can quickly develop mildew and similar problems in the hot, humid conditions. In general, surfaces that can be easily washed with soap/bleach are preferred. Wood or plastic. All fabric cushion covers and matresses should close with zippers or velcro, so that the fabric can be removed and laundered. If you use a kero stove, you should have a washable interior - the soot can build up slowly. Carpets on the cabin sole are not recommended for the tropics. They collect sand and moisture, and often develop a funky smell. Wood cabin sole, with a grate and sump at the bottom of the stairs to collect sand and water from people coming down the companionway would be my preferrence. Need not be fancy - just a watertight tray under a grate is sufficient. Wood or plastic for the walls and ceiling. Foam inside lockers can be just painted, unless the locker are for heavy/sharp equipment. greg elliott yacht Lazxy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2373|2347|2003-10-22 05:26:16|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|The Lazy Bones is T&G yellow cedar throughout. Nice to look at. Run longitudinally, the seams give the illusion of space. It must be varnished regularly, and it weights quite a bit. Every pound of interior is a pound that cannot be loaded as cruising stores. Also, when used for a ceiling, the weight of wood can affect performance. T&G can be hard to repair, unless you cut the tongues. A couple of times I've taken out 10 boards to get at one. I'm never tried the following. It is just an idea that might be worth an experiment. As an alternative, I've always wondered if you couldn't follow behind as the foam was being sprayed on, and lay veneer or plastic pre-cut panels on top of the still curing foam, pressing so that the panels are well stuck. Place the panels edge to edge and you will have finished all the interior surfaces. Once the foam cures, glue your furnishings to these panels. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > I'm going to be posting a few of my thoughts on quick and simple > interiors, in the hope that we might generate some novel solutions. > Perhaps some of you have opinions or experiences to offer. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2374|2347|2003-10-22 11:40:52|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|More on fabric and carpets. In the tropics, salt underlies the problem with fabric and carpets. People perspire when it is hot and humid and leave salt everywhere. Also, salt is carried on the breeze by wind and wave action, and finds its way below because cabins are left open for ventilation. Over time this salt builds up in fabric and carpets, where it attracts moisture. In the humid tropical climate this leaves fabrics and carpets feeling damp all the time, unless regularly laundered in fresh water, and can lead to mildew and similar problems, which will eat the fabric. In general, minimizing fabric and carpet surfaces minimizes this problem - wood and plastic surfaces can be quickly wiped clean of salt, and treated with bleach or similar as required. Fabric surfaces are required in the tropics for cushions and mattresses, to wick the sweat away from people for comfort and should be easily removable for regular laundering. Otherwise, their use should be minimized. Any exposed (painted) steel inside the cabin is also a problem in the tropics. Condensation on the steel can lead rapidly to the growth of mildew and similar. It doesn't harm the metal, but it can be unsightly, and a possible health risk. Spray foam as much as is practically possible, then finish with wood, plastic, or paint over. Others may have different experience. We spent many years living and cruising in the tropics and this reflects our experience and the experience passed to us by others. greg elliott yacht Lazxy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: info@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 2:21 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Thoughts on interiors Fabric and carpet surface in general in the tropics can be a problem, as they can quickly develop mildew and similar problems in the hot, humid conditions. In general, surfaces that can be easily washed with soap/bleach are preferred. Wood or plastic. All fabric cushion covers and matresses should close with zippers or velcro, so that the fabric can be removed and laundered. If you use a kero stove, you should have a washable interior - the soot can build up slowly. Carpets on the cabin sole are not recommended for the tropics. They collect sand and moisture, and often develop a funky smell. Wood cabin sole, with a grate and sump at the bottom of the stairs to collect sand and water from people coming down the companionway would be my preferrence. Need not be fancy - just a watertight tray under a grate is sufficient. Wood or plastic for the walls and ceiling. Foam inside lockers can be just painted, unless the locker are for heavy/sharp equipment. greg elliott yacht Lazxy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2375|2347|2003-10-22 13:02:14|jim dorey|Re: Thoughts on interiors|kitty litter box. info@... wrote: > Need not be fancy - just a watertight tray under a grate is sufficient. -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!|
2376|2346|2003-10-22 14:52:29|edward_stoneuk|Re: welding fore-deck next week|Richard, Thanks for your replies. When I said weld the fore deck I meant tack it. I have the bitter experience of my work distorting when welded. I could not get long sheets for the hull and had to weld two sheets together for each side. I went on a course and consulted welders and then welded them together and made a pig's ear of it. The second side side is better then the first so I am making progress. In order to hammer out some of the distortion I made a lead maul out of a 2" sched 80 pipe belled out at the business end with a ¾" Sched 10 pipe handle. It is held over a used tuna can, belled end down and filled with lead. It works well as it does not stretch the steel as an ordinary sledge hammer would. It lasts some time before the lead needs remelting into a new tuna can. I use it with a lead filled dolly on the other side. Regards, Ted|
2377|2347|2003-10-22 23:18:34|mark_schlichting11|Re: Thoughts on interiors|As a liveaboard, I agree with Greg that carpet wouldn't be my recommendation for interior finish, especially overhead where soot and cooking odors are bound to get imbedded. Nagahide (a vinyl like material) over 1/4 ply is popular, but we used 2.25" wide, 1/4" thick red cedar, ship lapped to look like t&g, running fore & aft. It is a bit darker than white nagahide but looks nice and is easy to wash down. Being out of the sunlight and with no wear, the varnish holds up well too. As for hull insulation, as long as there is 1.5" spray foam insulation there is absolutely no condensation in our climate. Be sure not to leave any metal tabs or anything else welded to the hull uninsulated because the cold will transmit through the steel and the moisture from warm air inside will condensate on it. One area prone to condensation is the ports, especially when the fire dies out and boat cools down overnight. Be sure to create a sill which won't absorb water or delaminate. A grab rail/drip catcher works well to prevent water from draining off the sills and dripping onto your head while sitting on the settees. We skinned the whole interior with 1/4" ply because when the boat is empty it is quite easy to cover large areas with almost full sized sheets and then you have full flexibility to attach your furniture anywhere you want on the plywood. For me, cutting small pieces of ply to fit between the furniture sounded more time consuming than just doing it all. Using the spray foam to attach the wood will not work because it dries hard enough to stand on in seconds - amazing stuff! Mark S. "Costa Vida" Shearwater, BC|
2378|2360|2003-10-23 01:49:11|Mark K|Re: origami power cat|How about a scow schooner instead? http://www.nps.gov/safr/local/alma.html These craft used to be the cargo workhorses around here (San Francisco) hauling all manner of things around the bay and up the Sacramento river. They must have been reasonably sea-worthy as the winds and currents in the Bay can get pretty exciting at times. I'm not sure whether the scow hullform really lends itself origami construction, but it's simple nontheless. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > One of the stumbling points in building a boat can be the time required to build the interiors. There is no origami equivalent, and > while the hull can go together very quickly, it can take quite a bit longer to achieve a "finished" interior. The basic problem is > that the insides of a boat are "round". There are few square "walls" to fit to, thus traditional "square" construction as used in > houses doesn't work. You can just go down to the local furniture store and buy a set of cupboards, a table or a bed and install > them in a yacht. > > However, there is a possible solution for power boat enthusiasts. Mobile-home and trailers provide a pre-fabricated living space. > Many of these are relatively light weight, and have furniture bolted down, being designed to be moved on wheels. Set on top of two > origami hulls ("amahs"), the possibility exists to rapidly create a very comfortable, low cost power cat. While not intended for > offshore, with proper attention to the size of the amahs, such a design could give very good performance in inshore waters. > > Power cats have a large share of the power boat market in OZ, where they are used extensively behind the Great Barrier Reef. When > we were in Oz, we were asked to design origami hulls for power cats, but we didn't have the technology at the time. We now have the > technology to design the hulls. We have a very similar conditions here in the Straights of Georgia, as well as in our many lakes > and rivers. Perhaps it is time to consider origami power cats. > > Used mobile-homes and trailers can often be purchased very inexpensively. The layout is such that they are perfectly acceptable for > cruising on a stable base such as a catamaran in relatively protected waters. Thick undercoating can be applied to the mobile- home > prior to attaching to the hulls to prevent corrosion, with provision to repaint as required. Wives and significant others love the > built in washer, dryer, stove, micro-wave, fridge, freezer, bath and full sized accommodations - it is just like living ashore. A > huge improvement over the cramped quarters in many yachts. > > The amahs are long, narrow, semi-wave piercing, with room for thousands of gallons of water, fuel, and waste. The large capacity > tanks are intended to allow extended cruising for weeks or months without re-supply. There is no living space intended in the > hulls. The mobile home rides high above the waves, with access via stairs at the stern. The roof has a flying bridge or pilot > house, sun deck and awning. > > The narrow cat hulls provide excellent fuel economy, and can be easily driven past 1.5 DWL, even when operating in displacement > mode. They are not prone to rolling, which makes them a favorite will those prone to motion sickness. Amahs can be steel or alloy > at the owners preference. > > Dual propellers ensure maneuverability. Engines can be in the hulls, or for low cost construction a diesel engine can salvaged from > a front wheel drive vehicle and placed in a utility room at the rear of the mobile-home. One axle might drive the 120V genset. The > other axle a hydraulic motor to power the propellers, dual anchors, and hydraulic davits. An alternative drive would be a > long-tail, with a swivel for maneuverability. > > Full width davits at the stern can lift a good sized FG run-about with outboard. When not in use, the run-about is tied at the > stern, between the hulls, alongside the stairs. In an emergency, the run-about will push the power cat from its stern tie-up > position. > > Anyone interested in a power boat for inshore cruising might consider such a design. It is a bit "out there" but it is something we > have talked about for many years. If we can get some interested parties we will do the designs and help as required to build them. > With a bit of care the resulting boat would be very acceptable to the eye. Because the interiors are already done, such a boat > could probably be completed by an amateur builder in a fraction of the time required to complete a mono-hull, likely provide much > more living space for the $$ spent, and provide many years of comfortable cruising. It isn't for offshore, but for 95% of the > people interested in a comfortable live-aboard and/or cruising power boat it would certainly fit the bill. > > greg elliott > yacht lazy bones > http://www.origamimagic.com |
2379|2347|2003-10-23 03:15:02|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Marine parts generally mean expensive. We use automotive and RV parts as much as possible to cut costs. The Lazy Bones had an RV stove for 10 years, with a home made gimbal. Worked fine with a heavy steel plate bolted to the bottom, for a small fraction of the cost of a marine stove. 10 years is a good lifetime for a marine part. We continue to use a 3-way RV freezer with great success. No moving parts. We get 2 months refrigeration from a 20lb propane tank, and the waste heat from the freezer heats our hot water. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2380|2347|2003-10-23 04:05:28|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Origami allows rapid construction of hulls, but there is no equivalent process for the interiors. RV's provide ready made, light weight interiors. Is there a way that an RV can be used to make a boat interior? RV's share many parts in common with boats, and used RV's can be quite inexpensive, especially as you do not need one that is road worthy. One option is to convert an RV to an origami power boat, as per my article "origami power cats". However, many people want sail. For those contemplating building a larger sailboat - say greater than 8 foot beam, install round tracks inside the hull athwartwhips - angle iron is fine. Now install an 8 foot wide travel trailer inside the hull with small nylon wheels athwartships to fit on the tracks - dolley wheels are fine. Instant interiors, and they are gimballed to boot! No matter how much the boat heels, everyone inside rides level. Whatever the angle of heel, the trailer will roll level. You wife and/or partner will love it. No matter how rocky the anchorage, everyone will get a good night's sleep. You can survive a knock down or roll over and not even spil your drinks. Install a round door in the companionway to permit access to the interior as it swings. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2381|2381|2003-10-23 04:57:32|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Poor man's blue poly crusier|Many people have asked how to build a boat from the blue ploy drums. This article describes such a process. First you need parts. Buy a used camper van or RV. Find one with worn out tires, brakes and suspension so that it is cheap. It doesn't need to be road worthy, as long as the engine runs ok. Get a rear wheel drive vehicle. Cruise control would be great but not necessary. Check the vehicle registration for the Gross Vehicle Weight (lbs). Divide this by 250, and buy this number of blue poly (55 gallon) drums. Get an even number of drums. For a 5000 lb van, you would buy 20 drums. If you can't find blue poly, steel drums are fine. Divide the drums into two groups. Heat weld the drums together, end to end, into two "hulls". Make sure everything is watertight. Place these two 'hulls side by side, approximately 10 feet apart. Lash steel pipes or strong timbers athwartships, across the top of the drums, to make a raft. Drive the van onto the raft, so that it faces the same direction as the hulls, and sits between the hulls. Lash the vehicle to the raft. Remove the tires from the vehicle, but leave the rims. Tie a rope to each tire - these are your fenders to use while docking. In a storm you can drag them behind to slow you down. Simpler than anchoring. On the front rims, weld two 1/4" steel plates, approximately 1x4 feet, facing fore and aft. Weld the 1 foot side to the rim, and let the other end fall into the water under its own weight. These are your rudders, and they will kick up if you hit a log or other obstacle, or if you need to beach the boat. On the rear rims, weld steel blades across the rims, of sufficient size that they reach the water, but do not hit the wheel wells. You may need to adjust the height of the rear axle for this to work properly. These are your paddle wheels. Take the time to make sure they are reasonably balanced. If you are mechanically inclined, skip the paddles and drop the rear end - weld a propeller directly to the end of the drive shaft to make a longtail. You are just about ready. Get some lifejackets, paddles, bucket, and a cell phone wouldn't be out of order. Fuel up the van, beer and bait, some tunes in the 8-track and you are ready for a day's fishing on the lake. Led Zeppelin comes to mind. If you didn't get cruise control, you also need a brick for the gas pedal. Offshore passages not recommended. greg elliott http://ww.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2382|2347|2003-10-23 07:14:42|...|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Greg wrote For those contemplating building a larger sailboat - say greater than 8 foot beam, install round tracks inside the hull athwartwhips - angle iron is fine. Now install an 8 foot wide travel trailer inside the hull with small nylon wheels athwartships to fit on the tracks - dolley wheels are fine. Instant interiors, and they are gimballed to boot! No matter how much the boat heels, everyone inside rides level. Whatever the angle of heel, the trailer will roll level. You wife and/or partner will love it. No matter how rocky the anchorage, everyone will get a good night's sleep. You can survive a knock down or roll over and not even spil your drinks. Install a round door in the companionway to permit access to the interior as it swings. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greg, Will you be offering a roll compensating salon in your 55? An interesting idea, but like many attempts to reduce the motion of ships it has been tried in an early steam ship, they tended to roll badly and make the passengers sick. But the motion of salon which was built into the ship in this way was worse than motion of the ship, making the passengers sick sooner, it was reported that nobody was able to stay in the salon for long, what was probably required was some form of damping but at that time it was not possible to build stabilizing systems, in the end the salon was fixed solid to the ship. Geoff|
2383|2383|2003-10-23 10:07:37|greenguy2ca|Interior|In Voyaging on a Small Income, Annie Hill used melamite for interior coverings. Would appreciate any comments about this material. Thanks.. Gary|
2384|2384|2003-10-23 11:27:10|hjythgds|www.ibuyart.biz|Check this out !!! I've found a cool site. Best on art sales. I bought myself a few things mostly blown art and I am verry satisfied with them. Thake a look you don't have what to lose. www.ibuyart.biz|
2385|2381|2003-10-23 11:47:37|lon wells|Re: Poor man's blue poly crusier it works!!!|http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,208282-1-9,00.html --- info@... wrote: > Many people have asked how to build a boat from the > blue ploy drums. This article describes such a > process. > > First you need parts. Buy a used camper van or RV. > Find one with worn out tires, brakes and suspension > so that it is cheap. It doesn't need to be road > worthy, as long as the engine runs ok. Get a rear > wheel drive vehicle. Cruise control would be great > but not necessary. Check the vehicle registration > for the Gross Vehicle Weight (lbs). Divide this by > 250, and buy this number of blue poly (55 gallon) > drums. Get an even number of drums. For a 5000 lb > van, you would buy 20 drums. If you can't find blue > poly, steel drums are fine. > > Divide the drums into two groups. Heat weld the > drums together, end to end, into two "hulls". Make > sure everything is watertight. Place these two > 'hulls side by side, approximately 10 feet apart. > Lash steel pipes or strong timbers athwartships, > across the top of the drums, to make a raft. Drive > the van onto the raft, so that it faces the same > direction as the hulls, and sits between the hulls. > Lash the vehicle to the raft. Remove the tires from > the vehicle, but leave the rims. Tie a rope to each > tire - these are your fenders to use while docking. > In a storm you can drag them behind to slow you > down. Simpler than anchoring. > > On the front rims, weld two 1/4" steel plates, > approximately 1x4 feet, facing fore and aft. Weld > the 1 foot side to the rim, and let the other end > fall into the water under its own weight. These are > your rudders, and they will kick up if you hit a log > or other obstacle, or if you need to beach the boat. > > > On the rear rims, weld steel blades across the rims, > of sufficient size that they reach the water, but do > not hit the wheel wells. You may need to adjust the > height of the rear axle for this to work properly. > These are your paddle wheels. Take the time to make > sure they are reasonably balanced. If you are > mechanically inclined, skip the paddles and drop the > rear end - weld a propeller directly to the end of > the drive shaft to make a longtail. > > You are just about ready. Get some lifejackets, > paddles, bucket, and a cell phone wouldn't be out of > order. Fuel up the van, beer and bait, some tunes > in the 8-track and you are ready for a day's fishing > on the lake. Led Zeppelin comes to mind. If you > didn't get cruise control, you also need a brick for > the gas pedal. Offshore passages not recommended. > > greg elliott > http://ww.origamimagic.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com|
2386|2347|2003-10-23 13:48:50|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Thoughts on interiors|I can confirm that the G55 owner has recently bought a trailer, though I can't confirm that it will be used in the G55 interior. Here on the coast both the Haida Monarch and the Haida Brave have gimballed interiors. My inspiration came from reading Chitchester's account of his gimballed chair and table. Electric motors attached to the dolley wheels can be used to generate power as the boat rolls, and can be used to dampen any undue motion, similar to damping a wind generator. :) greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Greg, Will you be offering a roll compensating salon in your 55? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2387|2381|2003-10-23 13:55:44|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Poor man's blue poly crusier it works!!!|The design is now proven for offshore! ----- Original Message ----- From: lon wells To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 8:46 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Poor man's blue poly crusier it works!!! http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,208282-1-9,00.html --- info@... wrote: > Many people have asked how to build a boat from the > blue ploy drums. This article describes such a > process. > > First you need parts. Buy a used camper van or RV. > Find one with worn out tires, brakes and suspension > so that it is cheap. It doesn't need to be road > worthy, as long as the engine runs ok. Get a rear > wheel drive vehicle. Cruise control would be great > but not necessary. Check the vehicle registration > for the Gross Vehicle Weight (lbs). Divide this by > 250, and buy this number of blue poly (55 gallon) > drums. Get an even number of drums. For a 5000 lb > van, you would buy 20 drums. If you can't find blue > poly, steel drums are fine. > > Divide the drums into two groups. Heat weld the > drums together, end to end, into two "hulls". Make > sure everything is watertight. Place these two > 'hulls side by side, approximately 10 feet apart. > Lash steel pipes or strong timbers athwartships, > across the top of the drums, to make a raft. Drive > the van onto the raft, so that it faces the same > direction as the hulls, and sits between the hulls. > Lash the vehicle to the raft. Remove the tires from > the vehicle, but leave the rims. Tie a rope to each > tire - these are your fenders to use while docking. > In a storm you can drag them behind to slow you > down. Simpler than anchoring. > > On the front rims, weld two 1/4" steel plates, > approximately 1x4 feet, facing fore and aft. Weld > the 1 foot side to the rim, and let the other end > fall into the water under its own weight. These are > your rudders, and they will kick up if you hit a log > or other obstacle, or if you need to beach the boat. > > > On the rear rims, weld steel blades across the rims, > of sufficient size that they reach the water, but do > not hit the wheel wells. You may need to adjust the > height of the rear axle for this to work properly. > These are your paddle wheels. Take the time to make > sure they are reasonably balanced. If you are > mechanically inclined, skip the paddles and drop the > rear end - weld a propeller directly to the end of > the drive shaft to make a longtail. > > You are just about ready. Get some lifejackets, > paddles, bucket, and a cell phone wouldn't be out of > order. Fuel up the van, beer and bait, some tunes > in the 8-track and you are ready for a day's fishing > on the lake. Led Zeppelin comes to mind. If you > didn't get cruise control, you also need a brick for > the gas pedal. Offshore passages not recommended. > > greg elliott > http://ww.origamimagic.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2388|2347|2003-10-23 17:16:05|Don Taylor|Re: Thoughts on interiors|I was thinking of buying T&G hardwood flooring (which can be had for not a bad price for some very nice wood) and using a thickness planer to remove the bottom 1/3 of the wood so that you are left with a ship lap joint instead of a T&G. Ship lap boards can be removed without cutting tongues or removing multiple boards. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The Lazy Bones is T&G yellow cedar throughout. Nice to look at. Run longitudinally, the seams give the illusion of space. It must be varnished regularly, and it weights quite a bit. Every pound of interior is a pound that cannot be loaded as cruising stores. Also, when used for a ceiling, the weight of wood can affect performance. T&G can be hard to repair, unless you cut the tongues. A couple of times I've taken out 10 boards to get at one. |
2390|2390|2003-10-25 22:26:11|Mark K|Interior wood|Now that we've established the potential dampness of the interior of a boat, I'm wondering how well can I expect wood to hold up inside the boat? Should I limit myself to particular types of wood? Where I would use plywood, should I be using marine plywood, or would less expensive grades be sufficient? Would I need to fill and seal the edges? What about glues, nails, screws and finishes? What about long term care and maintence? Sorry for all the questions, but as I've said I really not a wood kind of guy. My woodworking experience is limited to trimming out a house I remodeled some years ago. - Markk|
2391|22|2003-10-26 04:42:34|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Click here for a great dating service Uploaded by : niveloduta4406 Description : Browse through singles You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Click%20here%20for%20a%20great%20dating%20service To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, niveloduta4406 |
2392|2390|2003-10-26 12:03:23|brentswain38|Re: Interior wood|I never worried about any special treatment of wood inside a seel boat and have had little trouble in twenty years in my present boat. With a steel boat well insulated things stay pretty dry, much dryer that boats made of other materials.I have had a bit of delamination of cheap pannelling where water drips on the back of pannelling near the chimney and where wiring goes thru the deck , and my plywoood floor has rotted in one spot from bilge dampness. Any new flooring I'll epoxy tar on the underside, and I'll epoxy tar on the backside of any plywood panelling I put in in future. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mark K" wrote: > Now that we've established the potential dampness of the interior of a > boat, I'm wondering how well can I expect wood to hold up inside the > boat? Should I limit myself to particular types of wood? Where I > would use plywood, should I be using marine plywood, or would less > expensive grades be sufficient? Would I need to fill and seal the > edges? What about glues, nails, screws and finishes? What about long > term care and maintence? > > Sorry for all the questions, but as I've said I really not a wood kind > of guy. My woodworking experience is limited to trimming out a house > I remodeled some years ago. > > - Markk |
2393|2347|2003-10-26 12:05:49|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Avoid oak flooring as it turns black in a few years and the black penetrates right through it, impossible to remove. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Taylor" wrote: > I was thinking of buying T&G hardwood flooring (which can be had for > not a bad price for some very nice wood) and using a thickness planer > to remove the bottom 1/3 of the wood so that you are left with a ship > lap joint instead of a T&G. Ship lap boards can be removed without > cutting tongues or removing multiple boards. > > Don. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The Lazy Bones is T&G yellow cedar throughout. Nice to look at. > Run longitudinally, the seams give the illusion of space. It must be > varnished regularly, and it weights quite a bit. Every pound of > interior is a pound that cannot be loaded as cruising stores. Also, > when used for a ceiling, the weight of wood can affect performance. > T&G can be hard to repair, unless you cut the tongues. A couple of > times I've taken out 10 boards to get at one. |
2394|2347|2003-10-26 12:11:49|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Many years ago I read about an engineer who was singlehanding across the Atlantic. He made up a copy of a self winding watch system using a pendulum hooked up to a generator . He ended up with so much power that he had to keep the pendulum tied off most of the time to avoid overcharging his batteries.This idea warants further research as it may well turn out to be an excellent source of power at sea. The surplus centre in Lincoln Nebraska has permanent magnet motors which make good generators for this and wind generator use. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I can confirm that the G55 owner has recently bought a trailer, though I can't confirm that it will be used in the G55 interior. Here on the coast both the Haida Monarch and the Haida Brave have gimballed interiors. My inspiration came from reading Chitchester's account of his gimballed chair and table. Electric motors attached to the dolley wheels can be used to generate power as the boat rolls, and can be used to dampen any undue motion, similar to damping a wind generator. :) > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Greg, > Will you be offering a roll compensating salon in your 55? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2395|2347|2003-10-26 12:16:46|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on interiors|My current RV stove, the cheapest available Magic Chef is still going strong after 20 years,and several Pacific crossings, no problems.The top rusted out so I made a new top out of stainless, but the rest is OK.There is no way I could justify spending ten times as much on an expensive "Marine" stove costing ten times as much. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Marine parts generally mean expensive. We use automotive and RV parts as much as possible to cut costs. The Lazy Bones had an RV stove for 10 years, with a home made gimbal. Worked fine with a heavy steel plate bolted to the bottom, for a small fraction of the cost of a marine stove. 10 years is a good lifetime for a marine part. We continue to use a 3-way RV freezer with great success. No moving parts. We get 2 months refrigeration from a 20lb propane tank, and the waste heat from the freezer heats our hot water. > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2396|2346|2003-10-26 12:27:43|brentswain38|Re: welding fore-deck next week|If I blew it on the midships seam, I'd be inclined to cut it and do it again, with lots of plate on edge tacked across the seam every 4 inches or so to stop it from ridging. The welds would have to be small uphand welds with 1/8th inch 6011, welding 2 inches at a time and letting it cool before welding next to it, doing a couple of 2 inch welds outside, then a couple inside , back and forth until it was done. With short plates I put a good bevel on the inside and do the inside weld with the plate flat on the ground, with lots of plate on edge tacked across the seam to keep it flat. When the hull is up, I grind to the inside weld from the outside with a 1/8th inch cutting wheel , then do small 2 inch uphand 6011 welds , a little at a time.Keep these welds tiny. I've had no problem with distortion this way. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Richard, > Thanks for your replies. When I said weld the fore deck I meant tack > it. I have the bitter experience of my work distorting when welded. > I could not get long sheets for the hull and had to weld two sheets > together for each side. I went on a course and consulted welders and > then welded them together and made a pig's ear of it. The second > side side is better then the first so I am making progress. In order > to hammer out some of the distortion I made a lead maul out of a 2" > sched 80 pipe belled out at the business end with a ¾" Sched 10 pipe > handle. It is held over a used tuna can, belled end down and filled > with lead. It works well as it does not stretch the steel as an > ordinary sledge hammer would. It lasts some time before the lead > needs remelting into a new tuna can. I use it with a lead filled > dolly on the other side. > Regards, > Ted |
2397|2390|2003-10-26 12:34:19|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Interior wood|Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and accent pieces. SS and hot dipped galvanized can be used as fasteners, backed by waterproof glue. SS is preferred in bilge or inaccessible areas. Galv should be protected with paint or wooden plugs. Nickel or zinc plated steel fasteners should be avoided if possible, because they can corrode much faster than hot dipped. Be cautious of bronze and brass because of galvanic reactions with steel. On the Bones the interior was roughed out in ply and doug fir, and then covered with redwood and/or white paint, with yellow cedar ceilings, and mahogany trim. SS fasteners were used to install the floors and fairing strips, with galv and glue used to join the woodwork. The fasteners were recessed and covered with wooden plugs where visible. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2398|2390|2003-10-26 14:12:19|fmichael graham|Re: Interior wood|Mark: Two thoughts; use marine grade plywood and paint/seal both sides; always use screws - not nails. I would recommend stainless screws with "Robertson" (square) heads. Mike Mark K wrote: Now that we've established the potential dampness of the interior of a boat, I'm wondering how well can I expect wood to hold up inside the boat? Should I limit myself to particular types of wood? Where I would use plywood, should I be using marine plywood, or would less expensive grades be sufficient? Would I need to fill and seal the edges? What about glues, nails, screws and finishes? What about long term care and maintence? Sorry for all the questions, but as I've said I really not a wood kind of guy. My woodworking experience is limited to trimming out a house I remodeled some years ago. - Markk To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2399|2390|2003-10-26 17:09:14|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Interior wood|More. It is a good idea to paint wood before installation, especially on the hidden side, except where you need to leave a spot exposed to apply glue. For most applications, a good exterior grade one part household enamel (oil based) should be sufficient. Thin the first coat heavily to aid in penetration, then add a second coat to finish. For the most part I prefer to use one part, oil based paints on wood. They are simple, cheap, and do a good job of keeping out water. Fresh water is in some ways more dangerous inside a boat than salt water, as it promotes rot and in the tropics it can lead rapidly to termites. Any place that fresh water (rain) can enter should be sealed or controlled, and steps taken to prevent fresh water from contacting the wood. I typically seal wood that is regularly exposed to water with a layer of epoxy resin and matt on the wet side. On the Bones I replaced a couple of the metal hatches with wooden hatches as a safety precaution. I didn't want any fingers cut off by metal hatch covers. I covered the wood hatches with epoxy resin and FG matt, and painted over with epoxy paint. They continue to perform without any problem. The first set of wooden hatches I made I simply covered with epoxy paint, but the paint developed minute cracks, and they eventually rotted due to rain. The battery boxes on the Bones were originally plywood inside a metal frame, covered with epoxy paint on the inside. These suffered a similar fate. The epoxy paint developed cracks, and overflow acid from heavy charging eventually ate out the battery boxes, and didn't do the bilges any good either. These I rebuilt with resin and FG matt over ply, with epoxy paint over, and they continue to work well, even though many times being exposed to acid. Baking soda can be poured inside the battery box to help neutralize any acid that might spill. Make sure your batteries are tied down. In a pinch, epoxy resin and FG matt can also be used to repair steel. Grind down to good metal, paint on the epoxy resin, lay on the matt, and then smooth and work out the air bubbles with more resin. Epoxy paint over to finish. I did some of the heavy wear points around the anchor in this fashion 6 years ago - areas that I normally had to touch up every year - and they have not needed repainting since. I also removed and repaired a porthole that had badly rusted, and covered the entire area with epoxy and matt on both sides of the steel. The repair shows no further signs of rusting after 6 years. The advantage of epoxy is that it sticks chemically and lasts for years in the can. Polyester is cheaper, but it only sticks mechanically, and soon kicks off on its own in the tropics. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: info@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior wood Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and accent pieces. SS and hot dipped galvanized can be used as fasteners, backed by waterproof glue. SS is preferred in bilge or inaccessible areas. Galv should be protected with paint or wooden plugs. Nickel or zinc plated steel fasteners should be avoided if possible, because they can corrode much faster than hot dipped. Be cautious of bronze and brass because of galvanic reactions with steel. On the Bones the interior was roughed out in ply and doug fir, and then covered with redwood and/or white paint, with yellow cedar ceilings, and mahogany trim. SS fasteners were used to install the floors and fairing strips, with galv and glue used to join the woodwork. The fasteners were recessed and covered with wooden plugs where visible. Greg Elliott Yacht Lazy Bones http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2400|2400|2003-10-26 18:32:19|prairiemaidca|interiors|Hi All: Has anyone ever seen any of the laminate flooring products used in a boat. We have a pergo laminate in our house and I used a large lag bolt on a piece of scrap just to see how scratch resistant it really was. It took a great deal of effort to produce any mark on it! I was wondering if a cabin sole of laminate glued down to a marine grade plywood would create a nice looking sole without the work and cost of say the traditonal teak and holly. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid)|
2401|2347|2003-10-26 19:09:54|Don Taylor|Re: Thoughts on interiors|I have seen this on red oak, but what about white oak which has traditionally been used in wooden boat construction? Around here it is also cheaper than red oak. DOn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Avoid oak flooring as it turns black in a few years and the black > penetrates right through it, impossible to remove. > Brent Swain |
2402|2390|2003-10-26 19:18:40|Don Taylor|Re: Interior wood - hold off for a while on the plywood?|I was visiting the local building centre to buy some plywood for the house. I wanted 5/8" but was told they did not have any and furthermore they were not going to buy any until the price came down again. He would have to charge me over cdn$80 per sheet to cover his costs. Why is the price of plywood skyrocketing? The US Army has ordered almost every sheet available in North America for shipping to Iraq. I did not believe this at first, but I got the same story from the local wood mill. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. |
2403|2347|2003-10-26 19:20:52|Phillip Allen|Re: Thoughts on interiors|There are two basic types of oak; red and white. One requires two years for its acorns to mature and the other requires one. Red oak is poor construction for exterior anything and white oak may be used for fence posts which last for years. I plan on using white oak for construction if I manage to get that far. I will assume the attitude that anything on a baoat IS exterior. Phillip Allen Don Taylor wrote: I have seen this on red oak, but what about white oak which has traditionally been used in wooden boat construction? Around here it is also cheaper than red oak. DOn --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Avoid oak flooring as it turns black in a few years and the black > penetrates right through it, impossible to remove. > Brent Swain Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2404|2390|2003-10-27 00:54:30|smitty97006|Re: Interior wood|Hello Greg, I am particularly interested in your experience with covering steel with epoxy and mat. Do you think this might have application in new boat construction wherein the steel would be covered in this manner, both inside and out as a long term prevention to rust and electrolisis etc. Thank you for your thoughts, Gene Smith --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > More. It is a good idea to paint wood before installation, especially on the hidden side, except where you need to leave a spot exposed to apply glue. For most applications, a good exterior grade one part household enamel (oil based) should be sufficient. Thin the first coat heavily to aid in penetration, then add a second coat to finish. > > For the most part I prefer to use one part, oil based paints on wood. They are simple, cheap, and do a good job of keeping out water. Fresh water is in some ways more dangerous inside a boat than salt water, as it promotes rot and in the tropics it can lead rapidly to termites. Any place that fresh water (rain) can enter should be sealed or controlled, and steps taken to prevent fresh water from contacting the wood. > > I typically seal wood that is regularly exposed to water with a layer of epoxy resin and matt on the wet side. On the Bones I replaced a couple of the metal hatches with wooden hatches as a safety precaution. I didn't want any fingers cut off by metal hatch covers. I covered the wood hatches with epoxy resin and FG matt, and painted over with epoxy paint. They continue to perform without any problem. The first set of wooden hatches I made I simply covered with epoxy paint, but the paint developed minute cracks, and they eventually rotted due to rain. > > The battery boxes on the Bones were originally plywood inside a metal frame, covered with epoxy paint on the inside. These suffered a similar fate. The epoxy paint developed cracks, and overflow acid from heavy charging eventually ate out the battery boxes, and didn't do the bilges any good either. These I rebuilt with resin and FG matt over ply, with epoxy paint over, and they continue to work well, even though many times being exposed to acid. Baking soda can be poured inside the battery box to help neutralize any acid that might spill. Make sure your batteries are tied down. > > In a pinch, epoxy resin and FG matt can also be used to repair steel. Grind down to good metal, paint on the epoxy resin, lay on the matt, and then smooth and work out the air bubbles with more resin. Epoxy paint over to finish. I did some of the heavy wear points around the anchor in this fashion 6 years ago - areas that I normally had to touch up every year - and they have not needed repainting since. I also removed and repaired a porthole that had badly rusted, and covered the entire area with epoxy and matt on both sides of the steel. The repair shows no further signs of rusting after 6 years. The advantage of epoxy is that it sticks chemically and lasts for years in the can. Polyester is cheaper, but it only sticks mechanically, and soon kicks off on its own in the tropics. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: info@e... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior wood > > > Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. > > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. > > Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and accent pieces. > > SS and hot dipped galvanized can be used as fasteners, backed by waterproof glue. SS is preferred in bilge or inaccessible areas. Galv should be protected with paint or wooden plugs. Nickel or zinc plated steel fasteners should be avoided if possible, because they can corrode much faster than hot dipped. Be cautious of bronze and brass because of galvanic reactions with steel. > > On the Bones the interior was roughed out in ply and doug fir, and then covered with redwood and/or white paint, with yellow cedar ceilings, and mahogany trim. SS fasteners were used to install the floors and fairing strips, with galv and glue used to join the woodwork. The fasteners were recessed and covered with wooden plugs where visible. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2405|2390|2003-10-27 03:00:46|fmichael graham|Re: Interior wood - hold off for a while on the plywood?|Don: I hear you! I bought some property in the Prince George area during the summer and went up there to build a small cabin. In one month the price of 3/8" plywood went up $10 ! So I stopped! guess I showed them, eh? I was told a multitude of tales, including; "It's because of the forest fires", "It is because of the local mill shut-downs, we ship the raw logs to the U.S. and we'll be buying most of our plywood from down south, now" (I'm not touching that one!), and; " construction is booming!". I guess I'll have to use fencing panels! Mike Don Taylor wrote: I was visiting the local building centre to buy some plywood for the house. I wanted 5/8" but was told they did not have any and furthermore they were not going to buy any until the price came down again. He would have to charge me over cdn$80 per sheet to cover his costs. Why is the price of plywood skyrocketing? The US Army has ordered almost every sheet available in North America for shipping to Iraq. I did not believe this at first, but I got the same story from the local wood mill. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2406|2390|2003-10-27 08:40:23|Don Taylor|Re: Interior wood|This technique was tried back in the '60s and '70s. There is an example rusting away in the back of our yard. The glass and epoxy (maybe polyester?) has separated from the steel allowing water to get in and be trapped. Expanding rust pushes the coating off even further allowing more water in. She looks very sad. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "smitty97006" wrote: > > Hello Greg, > > I am particularly interested in your experience with covering steel > with epoxy and mat. Do you think this might have application in new > boat construction wherein the steel would be covered in this manner, > both inside and out as a long term prevention to rust and > electrolisis etc. > > Thank you for your thoughts, > Gene Smith |
2407|2390|2003-10-27 08:48:22|Don Taylor|Re: Interior wood - hold off for a while on the plywood?|I did a bit more research on this topic and it seems that plywood prices are quite seasonal. I plan to try again in Jan-Feb when house building activity slows down. It turns out that the US Army did buy quite lot of plywood for constructing barracks in IRAQ, but the total amounted to 3 hours of NA plywood production. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > > > Don: > > I hear you! I bought some property in the Prince George area during the summer and went up there to build a small cabin. In one month the price of 3/8" plywood went up $10 ! So I stopped! guess I showed them, eh? > > I was told a multitude of tales, including; "It's because of the forest fires", "It is because of the local mill shut-downs, we ship the raw logs to the U.S. and we'll be buying most of our plywood from down south, now" (I'm not touching that one!), and; " construction is booming!". > > I guess I'll have to use fencing panels! > > Mike |
2408|2400|2003-10-27 09:23:37|Don Taylor|Re: interiors - use of laminate flooring|I have considered this stuff too. I have laid a laminate floor in a house and really like it. There are a couple of potential problems with using it in a boat: 1) It is supposed to be floating on an underlay because it expands and contracts with heat and needs to move. Maybe if it cannot move then it will crack - it does not look as if it would be compressible like wood. However, the biggest area on a boat is quite small compared to a house floor so the expansion would be relatively small. 2) It is not supposed to be used in continuously wet areas. Most laminates are not recommended for bathrooms. However, I dumped some samples (cheap IKEA flooring) in a bucket of water for a week and they seemed OK afterwards. I suspect that if you sealed the outer edges after installation and filled any joint gaps with wax then you would be ok. Alternatively, the only parts that would allow water in is the edges of the planks, maybe they could be sealed with thinned down epoxy or deck sealer (Thompson's?) before installation. The T&G version of the stuff probably would not fit together after this treatment, but I think that the snap together version would still work. A friend's boat has a counter top made from cheap laminate flooring and it has stood up well over time - and she is a serious cook. They plan to do their cabin sole in the stuff. Don. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All: Has anyone ever seen any of the laminate flooring products > used in a boat. We have a pergo laminate in our house and I used a > large lag bolt on a piece of scrap just to see how scratch resistant > it really was. It took a great deal of effort to produce any mark on > it! I was wondering if a cabin sole of laminate glued down to a > marine grade plywood would create a nice looking sole without the > work and cost of say the traditonal teak and holly. > > Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid) |
2409|2400|2003-10-27 19:15:42|Mark K|Re: interiors - use of laminate flooring|I've used pergo in a house as well. The idea behind this type of flooring is that once glued up it forms a monolithic floor covering that is impervious to water from the top. Once the floor is laid you seal the edge to the wall or cabinets with silicone. It's a great idea for houses where the water is likely to come from above, but the edges and bottom are not waterproof. If the bottom and edges could be sealed, it might be useable, but I think it's advantages in a home environment would be wasted in a boat. I'm also a little concerned about how slick it can be. It is quite smooth and unless you are wearing appropriate shoes, it can be slippery, though this could be said about other wood floors depending on how they are finished. Does anyone have any ideas or comments on materials and finishes for cabin soles? A traditional wood plank sole looks nice, but looks like it could be complicated and expensive. I saw an interesting idea once in a fiberglass head where they bonded thin strips of teak to the fiberglass like planks with the fiberglass showing between them like a seam. I thought it looked pretty good and could be relatively easy to implement on a plywood sole in a metal boat. - Markk|
2410|2410|2003-10-27 21:37:59|brian vezina|Perkins engine for sale|I have a 50HP Perkins 4.108 diesel engine for sale. It is still in my 36' Brent boat and can be seen in operation. It has about 500 hours on it since it was rebuilt. A steal at $2100. Located in North Vancouver, Mosquito creek marina. E-mail Brian at brian.waterman@... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/|
2411|2411|2003-10-27 22:20:37|candle032000|flooring|Thirty years ago I laid the floors on my old wet-bilged wooden ketch using run of the mill plywood(half inch) with an overlay of 9/16th teak and maple. The maple strips stand proud of the teak by about a quarter of an inch to give excellent grip in wet heavy sailing conditions. Since the cheap maple takes the major wear, one could use fir or red cedar just as easily in place of the teak. Gives a very shippy and functional surface that has lasted almost three decades. I have never had a problem with any interior ply, just keep it dry. Incidently, I laid the cabin sole down in roofing tar then fastened it down with nails and plugged the countersunk holes. I would use screws next time and maybe a cheap mono-caulk from the local builders in lieu of the roofing tar. Cheers Greg Janes|
2412|2390|2003-10-27 22:26:40|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Interior wood|Hi Gene, The maximum area I have covered at one time is about 2 sq foot, using epoxy, with matt over - and this is the exception. I would be very reluctant to try this on a full scale boat without a lot of testing. I would think that polyester has no hope of working in this application, and that epoxy only works if the steel has been roughed up to provide a "tooth", similar to blasting. I typically use 16 grit flexible disks to prep steel for paint/epoxy repairs, which are usually the coarsest I can find. I see the epoxy matt technique more of a repair for damaged steel, in problem areas where repeated grinding and painting has not yielded a satisfactory result, or corrosion has perforated the steel, and where blasting/fabrication is not available/practical. I have only used this technique on the decks, cabin and rails, and I would not trust it underwater. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: smitty97006 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interior wood Hello Greg, I am particularly interested in your experience with covering steel with epoxy and mat. Do you think this might have application in new boat construction wherein the steel would be covered in this manner, both inside and out as a long term prevention to rust and electrolisis etc. Thank you for your thoughts, Gene Smith --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > More. It is a good idea to paint wood before installation, especially on the hidden side, except where you need to leave a spot exposed to apply glue. For most applications, a good exterior grade one part household enamel (oil based) should be sufficient. Thin the first coat heavily to aid in penetration, then add a second coat to finish. > > For the most part I prefer to use one part, oil based paints on wood. They are simple, cheap, and do a good job of keeping out water. Fresh water is in some ways more dangerous inside a boat than salt water, as it promotes rot and in the tropics it can lead rapidly to termites. Any place that fresh water (rain) can enter should be sealed or controlled, and steps taken to prevent fresh water from contacting the wood. > > I typically seal wood that is regularly exposed to water with a layer of epoxy resin and matt on the wet side. On the Bones I replaced a couple of the metal hatches with wooden hatches as a safety precaution. I didn't want any fingers cut off by metal hatch covers. I covered the wood hatches with epoxy resin and FG matt, and painted over with epoxy paint. They continue to perform without any problem. The first set of wooden hatches I made I simply covered with epoxy paint, but the paint developed minute cracks, and they eventually rotted due to rain. > > The battery boxes on the Bones were originally plywood inside a metal frame, covered with epoxy paint on the inside. These suffered a similar fate. The epoxy paint developed cracks, and overflow acid from heavy charging eventually ate out the battery boxes, and didn't do the bilges any good either. These I rebuilt with resin and FG matt over ply, with epoxy paint over, and they continue to work well, even though many times being exposed to acid. Baking soda can be poured inside the battery box to help neutralize any acid that might spill. Make sure your batteries are tied down. > > In a pinch, epoxy resin and FG matt can also be used to repair steel. Grind down to good metal, paint on the epoxy resin, lay on the matt, and then smooth and work out the air bubbles with more resin. Epoxy paint over to finish. I did some of the heavy wear points around the anchor in this fashion 6 years ago - areas that I normally had to touch up every year - and they have not needed repainting since. I also removed and repaired a porthole that had badly rusted, and covered the entire area with epoxy and matt on both sides of the steel. The repair shows no further signs of rusting after 6 years. The advantage of epoxy is that it sticks chemically and lasts for years in the can. Polyester is cheaper, but it only sticks mechanically, and soon kicks off on its own in the tropics. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: info@e... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior wood > > > Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. > > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. > > Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and accent pieces. > > SS and hot dipped galvanized can be used as fasteners, backed by waterproof glue. SS is preferred in bilge or inaccessible areas. Galv should be protected with paint or wooden plugs. Nickel or zinc plated steel fasteners should be avoided if possible, because they can corrode much faster than hot dipped. Be cautious of bronze and brass because of galvanic reactions with steel. > > On the Bones the interior was roughed out in ply and doug fir, and then covered with redwood and/or white paint, with yellow cedar ceilings, and mahogany trim. SS fasteners were used to install the floors and fairing strips, with galv and glue used to join the woodwork. The fasteners were recessed and covered with wooden plugs where visible. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2413|2411|2003-10-27 23:54:45|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: flooring|Hi Greg The floor of the Lazy Bones is almost identical to what you describe, except Ron used doug fir instead of teak, screwed and glued with epoxy. Looks great, low cost and has stood 20+ years of service, almost exclusively in the tropics. As you note, a traditional floor does not have to use expensive wood. Just alternate hard and soft woods, so that the harder wood stands proud. Our previous factory boat had "teak and holly" ply, which is really just a plywood veneer colored to look traditional. Totally useless. Any time the boat was heeled and someone came below wet, it was like trying to walk uphill on an ice rink. It was plain dangerous, and required a coat of varnish and sand to correct. We did have one piece of ply delaminate over a period of years in the tropics, even though it was kept dry. It was the only piece of ply on board with white glue. All the other pieces had black glue, and were not a problem. I don't know if this problem was specific to the glue, plywood, or years spent in hot, humid weather, or it is simply a problem with plywood in Asia. Since then I have always bought ply with black glue, and have not had any further problems. One boat we cruised with bought some ply in Asia, and after they got it installed as a new berth, rain leaked in a hatch, and the new ply sprouted orange colored fungi over large areas, so maybe it was just the local product. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: candle032000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 7:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] flooring Thirty years ago I laid the floors on my old wet-bilged wooden ketch using run of the mill plywood(half inch) with an overlay of 9/16th teak and maple. The maple strips stand proud of the teak by about a quarter of an inch to give excellent grip in wet heavy sailing conditions. Since the cheap maple takes the major wear, one could use fir or red cedar just as easily in place of the teak. Gives a very shippy and functional surface that has lasted almost three decades. I have never had a problem with any interior ply, just keep it dry. Incidently, I laid the cabin sole down in roofing tar then fastened it down with nails and plugged the countersunk holes. I would use screws next time and maybe a cheap mono-caulk from the local builders in lieu of the roofing tar. Cheers Greg Janes Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2414|2390|2003-10-28 01:05:10|brentswain38|Re: Interior wood|Aluminium hatches weigh far less than wooden hatches ( as long as you don't do what one client did and bolt enough decorative gumwoood to them to make them as heavy as steel) and are far less likely to dammage fingers. The are also light years better than wood hatches and usually cheaper. They are far less maintenance.Wood is probably the worst material you could use for hatches, for reasons mentioned in my book. Some people have been covering the area from the anchor winch to the bow roller with fully welded 1/8th inch stainless plate during the building stage with good results.Others lay down rubber conveyor belting there with a hole cut out for the mooring bit with good results. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > More. It is a good idea to paint wood before installation, especially on the hidden side, except where you need to leave a spot exposed to apply glue. For most applications, a good exterior grade one part household enamel (oil based) should be sufficient. Thin the first coat heavily to aid in penetration, then add a second coat to finish. > > For the most part I prefer to use one part, oil based paints on wood. They are simple, cheap, and do a good job of keeping out water. Fresh water is in some ways more dangerous inside a boat than salt water, as it promotes rot and in the tropics it can lead rapidly to termites. Any place that fresh water (rain) can enter should be sealed or controlled, and steps taken to prevent fresh water from contacting the wood. > > I typically seal wood that is regularly exposed to water with a layer of epoxy resin and matt on the wet side. On the Bones I replaced a couple of the metal hatches with wooden hatches as a safety precaution. I didn't want any fingers cut off by metal hatch covers. I covered the wood hatches with epoxy resin and FG matt, and painted over with epoxy paint. They continue to perform without any problem. The first set of wooden hatches I made I simply covered with epoxy paint, but the paint developed minute cracks, and they eventually rotted due to rain. > > The battery boxes on the Bones were originally plywood inside a metal frame, covered with epoxy paint on the inside. These suffered a similar fate. The epoxy paint developed cracks, and overflow acid from heavy charging eventually ate out the battery boxes, and didn't do the bilges any good either. These I rebuilt with resin and FG matt over ply, with epoxy paint over, and they continue to work well, even though many times being exposed to acid. Baking soda can be poured inside the battery box to help neutralize any acid that might spill. Make sure your batteries are tied down. > > In a pinch, epoxy resin and FG matt can also be used to repair steel. Grind down to good metal, paint on the epoxy resin, lay on the matt, and then smooth and work out the air bubbles with more resin. Epoxy paint over to finish. I did some of the heavy wear points around the anchor in this fashion 6 years ago - areas that I normally had to touch up every year - and they have not needed repainting since. I also removed and repaired a porthole that had badly rusted, and covered the entire area with epoxy and matt on both sides of the steel. The repair shows no further signs of rusting after 6 years. The advantage of epoxy is that it sticks chemically and lasts for years in the can. Polyester is cheaper, but it only sticks mechanically, and soon kicks off on its own in the tropics. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: info@e... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior wood > > > Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. > > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. > > Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and accent pieces. > > SS and hot dipped galvanized can be used as fasteners, backed by waterproof glue. SS is preferred in bilge or inaccessible areas. Galv should be protected with paint or wooden plugs. Nickel or zinc plated steel fasteners should be avoided if possible, because they can corrode much faster than hot dipped. Be cautious of bronze and brass because of galvanic reactions with steel. > > On the Bones the interior was roughed out in ply and doug fir, and then covered with redwood and/or white paint, with yellow cedar ceilings, and mahogany trim. SS fasteners were used to install the floors and fairing strips, with galv and glue used to join the woodwork. The fasteners were recessed and covered with wooden plugs where visible. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2415|2390|2003-10-28 01:10:34|brentswain38|Re: Interior wood|All plywood made in BC uses the same glue whether marine grade or not.This is not the case in the US where they consider the high quality of Canadian plywood to be an unfair trade practise, and want us to lower our standards to their virtual non-standards.The horrendous price of marine grade plywood makes it's use throughout a boat rather foolish, and unjustfiable in Canada. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > > > Mark: > > Two thoughts; use marine grade plywood and paint/seal both sides; always use screws - not nails. I would recommend stainless screws with "Robertson" (square) heads. > > Mike > > > > > > Mark K wrote: Now that we've established the potential dampness of the interior of a > boat, I'm wondering how well can I expect wood to hold up inside the > boat? Should I limit myself to particular types of wood? Where I > would use plywood, should I be using marine plywood, or would less > expensive grades be sufficient? Would I need to fill and seal the > edges? What about glues, nails, screws and finishes? What about long > term care and maintence? > > Sorry for all the questions, but as I've said I really not a wood kind > of guy. My woodworking experience is limited to trimming out a house > I remodeled some years ago. > > - Markk > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2416|2347|2003-10-28 01:13:25|brentswain38|Re: Thoughts on interiors|Both red oak and white oak turn black all the way through once the water hits it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Don Taylor" wrote: > I have seen this on red oak, but what about white oak which has > traditionally been used in wooden boat construction? Around here it > is also cheaper than red oak. > > > DOn > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Avoid oak flooring as it turns black in a few years and the black > > penetrates right through it, impossible to remove. > > Brent Swain |
2417|2417|2003-10-28 11:42:54|info@easysoftwareinc.com|hatches|Does anyone have some good metal hatch designs, simple to build, with lips that can't cut, that also seal well, while maintaining a low profile on deck? Aside from weight, it is the edges in metal hatches that create such a hazard to fingers. It just takes one child (or adult) to accidentally drop a metal hatch on their hand to create a disaster. Posting some good design to this site could save someone from grief down the road. I've seen many different ideas over the years, but never one that seemed to solve all the problems. thanks, greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2418|2417|2003-10-28 13:24:53|brentswain38|Re: hatches|I've been using the hatches described in my book for the last 27 years and have no complaints whatever. They are light, as watertight as the lid on a pressure cooker and totally mainteneance free.They make it far easier to get safely in and out of the boat in a hurry than the grossly outdated traditional arrangement, and are far more watertight. The aluminium forehatch feels almost as light as a piece of cardboard,far too light to cause any serious bodily injury. For the mainhatch the latch stops it from slamming totally shut without an extra ,deliberate effort to lift the latch to close it. On the hinge side I put a grabrail just inside to eliminate the temptation to gram the hatch frame.The aluminium main hatch is also far lighter than any of the alternatives. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Does anyone have some good metal hatch designs, simple to build, with lips that can't cut, that also seal well, while maintaining a low profile on deck? > > Aside from weight, it is the edges in metal hatches that create such a hazard to fingers. It just takes one child (or adult) to accidentally drop a metal hatch on their hand to create a disaster. Posting some good design to this site could save someone from grief down the road. I've seen many different ideas over the years, but never one that seemed to solve all the problems. > > thanks, > > greg elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2419|2347|2003-10-28 13:32:24|put_to_sea|Pendulum electrical generation |I found this post to be thought provoking. Brent, can you give us any leads on where you might have read this. In my opinion, if this worked it would sure beat most of the alternative electrical generation systems. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I also posted some questions on this subject in the electric boats list. Amos --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Many years ago I read about an engineer who was singlehanding across > the Atlantic. He made up a copy of a self winding watch system using > a pendulum hooked up to a generator . He ended up with so much power > that he had to keep the pendulum tied off most of the time to avoid > overcharging his batteries.This idea warants further research as it > may well turn out to be an excellent source of power at sea. > The surplus centre in Lincoln Nebraska has permanent magnet motors > which make good generators for this and wind generator use. > Brent Swain |
2420|2420|2003-10-28 14:07:42|Thomas Martin|Re: Digest Number 622|Is it possible to get stainless steel gas piston supports, similar to automobile hatch back supports, that could be used as hatch supports that would close slowly. They could also hold the hatch in the full open position, as well as preventing possible injury. Tom Martin origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are 9 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Re: interiors - use of laminate flooring From: "Mark K" 2. Perkins engine for sale From: brian vezina 3. flooring From: "candle032000" 4. Re: Re: Interior wood From: 5. Re: flooring From: 6. Re: Interior wood From: "brentswain38" 7. Re: Interior wood From: "brentswain38" 8. Re: Thoughts on interiors From: "brentswain38" 9. hatches From: ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:15:39 -0000 From: "Mark K" Subject: Re: interiors - use of laminate flooring I've used pergo in a house as well. The idea behind this type of flooring is that once glued up it forms a monolithic floor covering that is impervious to water from the top. Once the floor is laid you seal the edge to the wall or cabinets with silicone. It's a great idea for houses where the water is likely to come from above, but the edges and bottom are not waterproof. If the bottom and edges could be sealed, it might be useable, but I think it's advantages in a home environment would be wasted in a boat. I'm also a little concerned about how slick it can be. It is quite smooth and unless you are wearing appropriate shoes, it can be slippery, though this could be said about other wood floors depending on how they are finished. Does anyone have any ideas or comments on materials and finishes for cabin soles? A traditional wood plank sole looks nice, but looks like it could be complicated and expensive. I saw an interesting idea once in a fiberglass head where they bonded thin strips of teak to the fiberglass like planks with the fiberglass showing between them like a seam. I thought it looked pretty good and could be relatively easy to implement on a plywood sole in a metal boat. - Markk ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:37:58 -0800 (PST) From: brian vezina Subject: Perkins engine for sale I have a 50HP Perkins 4.108 diesel engine for sale. It is still in my 36' Brent boat and can be seen in operation. It has about 500 hours on it since it was rebuilt. A steal at $2100. Located in North Vancouver, Mosquito creek marina. E-mail Brian at brian.waterman@... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:20:37 -0000 From: "candle032000" Subject: flooring Thirty years ago I laid the floors on my old wet-bilged wooden ketch using run of the mill plywood(half inch) with an overlay of 9/16th teak and maple. The maple strips stand proud of the teak by about a quarter of an inch to give excellent grip in wet heavy sailing conditions. Since the cheap maple takes the major wear, one could use fir or red cedar just as easily in place of the teak. Gives a very shippy and functional surface that has lasted almost three decades. I have never had a problem with any interior ply, just keep it dry. Incidently, I laid the cabin sole down in roofing tar then fastened it down with nails and plugged the countersunk holes. I would use screws next time and maybe a cheap mono-caulk from the local builders in lieu of the roofing tar. Cheers Greg Janes ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:23:51 -0800 From: Subject: Re: Re: Interior wood Hi Gene, The maximum area I have covered at one time is about 2 sq foot, using epoxy, with matt over - and this is the exception. I would be very reluctant to try this on a full scale boat without a lot of testing. I would think that polyester has no hope of working in this application, and that epoxy only works if the steel has been roughed up to provide a "tooth", similar to blasting. I typically use 16 grit flexible disks to prep steel for paint/epoxy repairs, which are usually the coarsest I can find. I see the epoxy matt technique more of a repair for damaged steel, in problem areas where repeated grinding and painting has not yielded a satisfactory result, or corrosion has perforated the steel, and where blasting/fabrication is not available/practical. I have only used this technique on the decks, cabin and rails, and I would not trust it underwater. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: smitty97006 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:54 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Interior wood Hello Greg, I am particularly interested in your experience with covering steel with epoxy and mat. Do you think this might have application in new boat construction wherein the steel would be covered in this manner, both inside and out as a long term prevention to rust and electrolisis etc. Thank you for your thoughts, Gene Smith --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > More. It is a good idea to paint wood before installation, especially on the hidden side, except where you need to leave a spot exposed to apply glue. For most applications, a good exterior grade one part household enamel (oil based) should be sufficient. Thin the first coat heavily to aid in penetration, then add a second coat to finish. > > For the most part I prefer to use one part, oil based paints on wood. They are simple, cheap, and do a good job of keeping out water. Fresh water is in some ways more dangerous inside a boat than salt water, as it promotes rot and in the tropics it can lead rapidly to termites. Any place that fresh water (rain) can enter should be sealed or controlled, and steps taken to prevent fresh water from contacting the wood. > > I typically seal wood that is regularly exposed to water with a layer of epoxy resin and matt on the wet side. On the Bones I replaced a couple of the metal hatches with wooden hatches as a safety precaution. I didn't want any fingers cut off by metal hatch covers. I covered the wood hatches with epoxy resin and FG matt, and painted over with epoxy paint. They continue to perform without any problem. The first set of wooden hatches I made I simply covered with epoxy paint, but the paint developed minute cracks, and they eventually rotted due to rain. > > The battery boxes on the Bones were originally plywood inside a metal frame, covered with epoxy paint on the inside. These suffered a similar fate. The epoxy paint developed cracks, and overflow acid from heavy charging eventually ate out the battery boxes, and didn't do the bilges any good either. These I rebuilt with resin and FG matt over ply, with epoxy paint over, and they continue to work well, even though many times being exposed to acid. Baking soda can be poured inside the battery box to help neutralize any acid that might spill. Make sure your batteries are tied down. > > In a pinch, epoxy resin and FG matt can also be used to repair steel. Grind down to good metal, paint on the epoxy resin, lay on the matt, and then smooth and work out the air bubbles with more resin. Epoxy paint over to finish. I did some of the heavy wear points around the anchor in this fashion 6 years ago - areas that I normally had to touch up every year - and they have not needed repainting since. I also removed and repaired a porthole that had badly rusted, and covered the entire area with epoxy and matt on both sides of the steel. The repair shows no further signs of rusting after 6 years. The advantage of epoxy is that it sticks chemically and lasts for years in the can. Polyester is cheaper, but it only sticks mechanically, and soon kicks off on its own in the tropics. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: info@e... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior wood > > > Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. > > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. > > Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and accent pieces. > > SS and hot dipped galvanized can be used as fasteners, backed by waterproof glue. SS is preferred in bilge or inaccessible areas. Galv should be protected with paint or wooden plugs. Nickel or zinc plated steel fasteners should be avoided if possible, because they can corrode much faster than hot dipped. Be cautious of bronze and brass because of galvanic reactions with steel. > > On the Bones the interior was roughed out in ply and doug fir, and then covered with redwood and/or white paint, with yellow cedar ceilings, and mahogany trim. SS fasteners were used to install the floors and fairing strips, with galv and glue used to join the woodwork. The fasteners were recessed and covered with wooden plugs where visible. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:00 -0800 From: Subject: Re: flooring Hi Greg The floor of the Lazy Bones is almost identical to what you describe, except Ron used doug fir instead of teak, screwed and glued with epoxy. Looks great, low cost and has stood 20+ years of service, almost exclusively in the tropics. As you note, a traditional floor does not have to use expensive wood. Just alternate hard and soft woods, so that the harder wood stands proud. Our previous factory boat had "teak and holly" ply, which is really just a plywood veneer colored to look traditional. Totally useless. Any time the boat was heeled and someone came below wet, it was like trying to walk uphill on an ice rink. It was plain dangerous, and required a coat of varnish and sand to correct. We did have one piece of ply delaminate over a period of years in the tropics, even though it was kept dry. It was the only piece of ply on board with white glue. All the other pieces had black glue, and were not a problem. I don't know if this problem was specific to the glue, plywood, or years spent in hot, humid weather, or it is simply a problem with plywood in Asia. Since then I have always bought ply with black glue, and have not had any further problems. One boat we cruised with bought some ply in Asia, and after they got it installed as a new berth, rain leaked in a hatch, and the new ply sprouted orange colored fungi over large areas, so maybe it was just the local product. greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: candle032000 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 7:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] flooring Thirty years ago I laid the floors on my old wet-bilged wooden ketch using run of the mill plywood(half inch) with an overlay of 9/16th teak and maple. The maple strips stand proud of the teak by about a quarter of an inch to give excellent grip in wet heavy sailing conditions. Since the cheap maple takes the major wear, one could use fir or red cedar just as easily in place of the teak. Gives a very shippy and functional surface that has lasted almost three decades. I have never had a problem with any interior ply, just keep it dry. Incidently, I laid the cabin sole down in roofing tar then fastened it down with nails and plugged the countersunk holes. I would use screws next time and maybe a cheap mono-caulk from the local builders in lieu of the roofing tar. Cheers Greg Janes Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:05:06 -0000 From: "brentswain38" Subject: Re: Interior wood Aluminium hatches weigh far less than wooden hatches ( as long as you don't do what one client did and bolt enough decorative gumwoood to them to make them as heavy as steel) and are far less likely to dammage fingers. The are also light years better than wood hatches and usually cheaper. They are far less maintenance.Wood is probably the worst material you could use for hatches, for reasons mentioned in my book. Some people have been covering the area from the anchor winch to the bow roller with fully welded 1/8th inch stainless plate during the building stage with good results.Others lay down rubber conveyor belting there with a hole cut out for the mooring bit with good results. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > More. It is a good idea to paint wood before installation, especially on the hidden side, except where you need to leave a spot exposed to apply glue. For most applications, a good exterior grade one part household enamel (oil based) should be sufficient. Thin the first coat heavily to aid in penetration, then add a second coat to finish. > > For the most part I prefer to use one part, oil based paints on wood. They are simple, cheap, and do a good job of keeping out water. Fresh water is in some ways more dangerous inside a boat than salt water, as it promotes rot and in the tropics it can lead rapidly to termites. Any place that fresh water (rain) can enter should be sealed or controlled, and steps taken to prevent fresh water from contacting the wood. > > I typically seal wood that is regularly exposed to water with a layer of epoxy resin and matt on the wet side. On the Bones I replaced a couple of the metal hatches with wooden hatches as a safety precaution. I didn't want any fingers cut off by metal hatch covers. I covered the wood hatches with epoxy resin and FG matt, and painted over with epoxy paint. They continue to perform without any problem. The first set of wooden hatches I made I simply covered with epoxy paint, but the paint developed minute cracks, and they eventually rotted due to rain. > > The battery boxes on the Bones were originally plywood inside a metal frame, covered with epoxy paint on the inside. These suffered a similar fate. The epoxy paint developed cracks, and overflow acid from heavy charging eventually ate out the battery boxes, and didn't do the bilges any good either. These I rebuilt with resin and FG matt over ply, with epoxy paint over, and they continue to work well, even though many times being exposed to acid. Baking soda can be poured inside the battery box to help neutralize any acid that might spill. Make sure your batteries are tied down. > > In a pinch, epoxy resin and FG matt can also be used to repair steel. Grind down to good metal, paint on the epoxy resin, lay on the matt, and then smooth and work out the air bubbles with more resin. Epoxy paint over to finish. I did some of the heavy wear points around the anchor in this fashion 6 years ago - areas that I normally had to touch up every year - and they have not needed repainting since. I also removed and repaired a porthole that had badly rusted, and covered the entire area with epoxy and matt on both sides of the steel. The repair shows no further signs of rusting after 6 years. The advantage of epoxy is that it sticks chemically and lasts for years in the can. Polyester is cheaper, but it only sticks mechanically, and soon kicks off on its own in the tropics. > > Greg Elliott > Yacht Lazy Bones > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: info@e... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:33 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Interior wood > > > Exterior grade wood as used in houses can be acceptable for the interior of a boat, at a fraction of the cost of tropical hardwoods. In general use wood species that are rot resistant, light weight and strong enough for the job they doing. Locally, cedar or redwood over Doug fir might be a good choice for the interior. > > Exterior grade plywood is usually acceptable for the interiors. Do not use interior grade ply because the glue may not be waterproof. Usually if the glue is a light color, it is not waterproof. You only need to pay for a finished side if it will show. > > Use exterior grade paint and/or varnish to keep out moisture and minimize checking. End grain especially should be treated. You can apply a stain before varnishing, to simulate the look of tropical hardwoods. True tropical hardwood can be reserved for the trim and === message truncated === --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2421|2420|2003-10-28 14:52:30|put_to_sea|Re: Digest Number 622|I was thinking about possibly using a spring on the hinges just to keep the hatch from slamming down with full force. - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Martin wrote: > Is it possible to get stainless steel gas piston supports, similar to automobile hatch back supports, that could be used as hatch supports that would close slowly. They could also hold the hatch in the full open position, as well as preventing possible injury. > Tom Martin |
2422|2420|2003-10-28 15:05:50|Mark K|Re: Digest Number 622|Counterweighting the hatch would be a good solution if it could be accomplished without the weight protruding into the cabin when the hatch was open. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "put_to_sea" wrote: > I was thinking about possibly using a spring on the hinges just to > keep the hatch from slamming down with full force. > > > - In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Martin > wrote: > > Is it possible to get stainless steel gas piston supports, similar > to automobile hatch back supports, that could be used as hatch > supports that would close slowly. They could also hold the hatch in > the full open position, as well as preventing possible injury. > > Tom Martin |
2423|2420|2003-10-28 15:06:21|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Digest Number 622|Pistons, springs, and similar forms of counter-balancing are used on many commercial hatches, and are a good solution, except that they are an added cost/complication. I'm hoping that someone along the way has seen a really brilliant, simple alternative. My concern is that even on a super light alloy foredeck hatch, if it falls, a 1/8 " metal edge at speed can/will cut off a child's fingers. I have seen some designs that widen and round the edges, so that it will crush rather than cut, which is an improvement, but still I'm hoping someone has an alternative. Children are a challenge while cruising. If there is a way for them to cut off fingers with a hatch, they will find it. Maybe not their own fingers, but their friends and siblings for sure. thanks, greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Martin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Digest Number 622 Is it possible to get stainless steel gas piston supports, similar to automobile hatch back supports, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2424|2417|2003-10-28 15:40:59|fmichael graham|Re: hatches|Could not one use automotive door trim around the hatch edge? This, combined with the light weight of aluminum, might be one solution. Mike Graham info@... wrote: Does anyone have some good metal hatch designs, simple to build, with lips that can't cut, that also seal well, while maintaining a low profile on deck? Aside from weight, it is the edges in metal hatches that create such a hazard to fingers. It just takes one child (or adult) to accidentally drop a metal hatch on their hand to create a disaster. Posting some good design to this site could save someone from grief down the road. I've seen many different ideas over the years, but never one that seemed to solve all the problems. thanks, greg elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]|
2425|2417|2003-10-28 19:16:27|edward_stoneuk|Re: hatches|We use EPDM or nitrile edging strip on the doors of acoustic housings. There are many different sorts; the one we use has a 'U' that is a push fit over the edge of the 2mm steel door and has a hollow tube with ears that compresses as the door is closed. We buy this by the metre from a company that sells hinges and door catches etc for use in industrial enclosures. We also use a push fit nylon 'U' edging strip around the edge of the steel shelter roof over outdoor control enclosures to save tall folks splitting their heads open. Any of these should provide some protection for little fingers. It would be useful to have a spring or rubber stopper that the hatch hit just before it closed thus holding it open unless the catches were locked closed. This would stop the hatch lid trapping fingers and also allow one to see at a glance that a hatch was not secured to go to sea. Regards, Ted|
2426|2426|2003-10-28 19:21:32|edward_stoneuk|Cockpit lockers|Many sail boats of my aquaintance have one or more seats in the cockpit that open up to reveal a locker for storing fenders, mooring ropes, buckets etc. What are the views on building these very useful lockers in origami boats? Regards, Ted|
2427|2420|2003-10-29 01:40:45|Mark K|Re: hatches|How about a torsion spring like one might find supporting the lid on a pickup truck tool box? Those springs are nothing more than a bent steel rod. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Pistons, springs, and similar forms of counter-balancing are used on many commercial hatches, and are a good solution, except that they are an added cost/complication. I'm hoping that someone along the way has seen a really brilliant, simple alternative. > > My concern is that even on a super light alloy foredeck hatch, if it falls, a 1/8 " metal edge at speed can/will cut off a child's fingers. I have seen some designs that widen and round the edges, so that it will crush rather than cut, which is an improvement, but still I'm hoping someone has an alternative. Children are a challenge while cruising. If there is a way for them to cut off fingers with a hatch, they will find it. Maybe not their own fingers, but their friends and siblings for sure. > > thanks, greg > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Thomas Martin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:07 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Digest Number 622 > > > Is it possible to get stainless steel gas piston supports, similar to automobile hatch back supports, > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2428|2417|2003-10-29 03:19:23|info@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: hatches|what do they look like - can they be adapted? thanks, g ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark K To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 10:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hatches How about a torsion spring like one might find supporting the lid on a pickup truck tool box? Those springs are nothing more than a bent steel rod. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2429|2417|2003-10-29 05:18:03|Mark K|Re: hatches|Hmmm... It's actually a little tricky to describe even though it's very simple. It's actually quite clever in its simplicity. Basically the spring itself is like a sway bar on a car except that the ends aren't both bent in the same direction. There are a lot of different ways to do this, here's one: Take a steel rod that is a a bit longer than your hatch is wide. Open the hatch all the way and lay the rod along the hinge side inside the hatch. Bend one end of the rod 90deg, place it so the bent end lies along the hatch carling and attach the bent end to the carling with something like a hinge strap (the bar needs to twist slightly in it's mount). Bend the other end 90deg so it lies parallel to the open hatch and attach it to the hatch with a similar strap. Now try close the hatch. It should spring back and pop you in the jaw. Depending on how far your hatch opens, you may need to loop the torsion bar back and attach both ends on the same side rather than on the opposite sides to increse the bar's effective length and lower its spring rate. I hope my description makes sense. - Markk --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > what do they look like - can they be adapted? thanks, g > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark K > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 10:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: hatches > > > How about a torsion spring like one might find supporting the lid on a > pickup truck tool box? Those springs are nothing more than a bent > steel rod. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
2430|2430|2003-10-29 10:43:01|sabbdiesel|2JHR sabb diesel 30hp|Hello I have a 2JHR sabb diesel. Anyone with info on this engine or any thought,s whatever please feel free email me. Al Jackson|
2431|2347|2003-10-29 14:49:16|Len den Besten|Re: Pendulum electrical generation|It sure is promising, patented by seiko as a kinetic generator perhaps ? I expect the energy-consumption of a crystal/lcd-watch can be dealt with but say a constant 4-6 Ah this would take a few "horses".... In Holland we would post messages like this around the first of april. Just my 2 cts worth... Len. --- put_to_sea wrote: > I found this post to be thought provoking. Brent, > can you give us > any leads on where you might have read this. In my > opinion, if this > worked it would sure beat most of the alternative > electrical > generation systems. Does anyone have any thoughts > on this? I also > posted some questions on this subject in the > electric boats list. > > Amos > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Many years ago I read about an engineer who was > singlehanding > across > > the Atlantic. He made up a copy of a self winding > watch system > using > > a pendulum hooked up to a generator . He ended up > with so much > power > > that he had to keep the pendulum tied off most of > the time to > avoid > > overcharging his batteries.This idea warants > further research as > it > > may well turn out to be an excellent source of > power at sea. > > The surplus centre in Lincoln Nebraska has > permanent magnet > motors > > which make good generators for this and wind > generator use. > > Brent Swain > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/|
2432|2347|2003-10-29 14:54:44|Len den Besten|Re: Pendulum electrical generation|It sure sounds promising, patented by seiko as a kinetic generator perhaps ? I expect the energy-consumption of a crystal/lcd-watch can be dealt with but say a constant 4 Ah this would take a few "horses".... In Holland we post messages like this around the first of april. Kind regards, Len. --- put_to_sea wrote: > I found this post to be thought provoking. Brent, > can you give us > any leads on where you might have read this. In my > opinion, if this > worked it would sure beat most of the alternative > electrical > generation systems. Does anyone have any thoughts > on this? I also > posted some questions on this subject in the > electric boats list. > > Amos > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Many years ago I read about an engineer who was > singlehanding > across > > the Atlantic. He made up a copy of a self winding > watch system > using > > a pendulum hooked up to a generator . He ended up > with so much > power > > that he had to keep the pendulum tied off most of > the time to > avoid > > overcharging his batteries.This idea warants > further research as > it > > may well turn out to be an excellent source of > power at sea. > > The surplus centre in Lincoln Nebraska has > permanent magnet > motors > > which make good generators for this and wind > generator use. > > Brent Swain > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/|
2433|2347|2003-10-29 14:55:34|Len den Besten|Re: Pendulum electrical generation|It sure sounds promising, patented by seiko as a kinetic generator perhaps ? I expect the energy-consumption of a crystal/lcd-watch can be dealt with but say a constant 4 Ah this would take a few "horses".... In Holland we post messages like this around the first of april. Kind regards, Len. --- put_to_sea wrote: > I found this post to be thought provoking. Brent, > can you give us > any leads on where you might have read this. In my > opinion, if this > worked it would sure beat most of the alternative > electrical > generation systems. Does anyone have any thoughts > on this? I also > posted some questions on this subject in the > electric boats list. > > Amos > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Many years ago I read about an engineer who was > singlehanding > across > > the Atlantic. He made up a copy of a self winding > watch system > using > > a pendulum hooked up to a generator . He ended up > with so much > power > > that he had to keep the pendulum tied off most of > the time to > avoid > > overcharging his batteries.This idea warants > further research as > it > > may well turn out to be an excellent source of > power at sea. > > The surplus centre in Lincoln Nebraska has > permanent magnet > motors > > which make good generators for this and wind > generator use. > > Brent Swain > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/|
2434|2347|2003-10-29 15:23:28|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Pendulum electrical generation|4A @ 13.8V = 55W a little more than 1/14th HP at 746 watts per HP. Dale R. Len den Besten wrote: > It sure sounds promising, patented by seiko as a > kinetic generator perhaps ? I expect the > energy-consumption of a crystal/lcd-watch can be dealt > with but say a constant 4 Ah this would take a few > "horses".... > In Holland we post messages like this around the first > of april. > > Kind regards, Len. > > > --- put_to_sea wrote: > > I found this post to be thought provoking. Brent, > > can you give us > > any leads on where you might have read this. In my > > opinion, if this > > worked it would sure beat most of the alternative > > electrical > > generation systems. Does anyone have any thoughts > > on this? I also > > posted some questions on this subject in the > > electric boats list. > > > > Amos > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Many years ago I read about an engineer who was > > singlehanding > > across > > > the Atlantic. He made up a copy of a self winding > > watch system > > using > > > a pendulum hooked up to a generator . He ended up > > with so much > > power > > > that he had to keep the pendulum tied off most of > > the time to > > avoid > > > overcharging his batteries.This idea warants > > further research as > > it > > > may well turn out to be an excellent source of > > power at sea. > > > The surplus centre in Lincoln Nebraska has > > permanent magnet > > motors > > > which make good generators for this and wind > > generator use. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears > http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >