4001|3996|2004-06-04 03:30:16|Gerd|Re: Bare hull shell complete!|Looks GREAT!!! Can you send sme Brent over here to Hungary for the weekend? ;-) Gerd| 4002|3901|2004-06-04 04:35:39|garry crothers|Re: Mig vs Stick welding = Saving Time!|Has anybody any experience of the Readyweld guns mentioned here www.readwelder.com. I was thinking about getting one for use on the boat? garry| 4003|3996|2004-06-04 05:55:43|dreemer1962|Re: Bare hull shell complete!|She looks real good, congratulations Brent and Alex! Milan --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > I've now got a hull shell, as you can see from the new group cover > photo, on the 7th day of work. Total time spent: 30 hours. I knew it > could be done, I just didn't believe it until it happened right > before me! > > Much of the work was done by Brent in sweltering heat while I fiddled > around with video equipment, stopping every now and then to pass him > more rods, a tool, the cutting torch, or to block up the hull as it > developed more rocker. It was incredible how it really turned from a > two dimensional piece of plate into a nice full, 3-D hull with a what > seemed like very few cranks of the handle on the chain come- along. > > It has been an interesting time attempting to be both film-maker and > boatbuilder, but I think we have some excellent footage that provides > technical tricks that only an experienced boatbuilder like Brent > would know (this is about his 33rd boat). Sometimes he worked so fast > that I missed subtle things, but many of the things I missed are > covered Brent's book meaning that the film and the book should work > well together. When another hull starts (Brent may be available for > a September start if someone is interested) I'll film that too and > fill in the gaps. > > Tomorrow we'll be pre-fabricating the decks, and should get them into > place as well. Not much time to get over to the internet cafe to > upload photos, but I will update the cover photo when we have the > decks on completely. > > Alex | 4004|4004|2004-06-04 08:37:25|Phil S.|Hull Progress|Alex and Brent; Wow!!! I can't wait to show these pictures to my wife, she has been sceptical about this project. I keep telling her that compared to building the house the boat will be a snap. Alex how far are you from Vancouver? Phil| 4005|4005|2004-06-04 09:44:06|Phil S.|Non Turbo VW Engine|The Item Code is 2480708141 as of right now it is bid at about $80. I am not ready to buy this yet but thought I would pass it along. Phil| 4006|3977|2004-06-04 10:20:45|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|Personally I think it is just mental enertia at work. People like things and are comfortable with things that are familiar and resist change in general. I have run into it all my life as I tend to in some ways think outside the box. In others I probably have my own enertia going on. :) I just try to be aware of it when it happens. I bet the firts person to build a metal boat got laughed out of the bar :) lol i mean everyone knows that metal is heavier than water :) It wont float. scott audeojude --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Sounds like a reasonable idea . It looks like you've done your > homework. Could it be possible that the cynics are selling real > estate, or trying to justify their own real estate debts? > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > wrote: > > I have thought about a steel catamaran concept before but it needs > to > > be big to get over the weight penalty. > > > > :) > > > > I came up with a rough design using 30,000 gallon tanks of the kind > > they store propane and natural gas in. I will copy some of the > ideas I > > have emailed others about for this here and see what you think. :) > > > > This will be alittle disjointed as I'm copying portions of emails > that > > I have previously explored the concept in. I have uploaded the > images > > i created for the design to a new folder in the files section called > > steel catamaran > > > > > > Here is the begining of the idea > > > > My goal with my design isn't for a boat to sail on a > > regular basis but a home to move. with living space > > and work shop space. Industrial quality finish as > > opposed to yacht finih. As Indistructable as I can > > build it. It would have full size power plants and > > large capacity fuel tanks. You could jack it up out of > > the water (as much as 10 feet out of the water > > if needed) for extended periods of time and live that > > way and use it as a base station to explore an area in > > with a smaller say 20 foot aux boat. Any of the 4 to 6 > > steel legs (spuds) in the up position could be used as masts > > for large junk rig sails. I would expect that it would > > be slow. In the 5 to 7 knot range > > > > The steel catamaran barge concept is just that a concept. I'm not > > trying to prove it can't be done :) lots of people > > have said that already. But I haven't seen any > > referances to people doing it and failing either. Or > > doing it and it being unusable. I'm trying to be > > innovative and prove that it can be done. The exercise > > in and of itself is worth the time and effort. :) If > > no one tilted at windmills where would the world be? > > I'm trying to find a way to make it work. I'm not > > going to spend money on it unless on paper I can make > > it work both technically and cost wise. > > > > What I don't understand is why it is automatically > > assumed that it is nuts to do? We build very heavy and > > slow monos all the time. Multihulls are light and fast > > and give more space. But what if you built heavy > > multihull. You lose speed. Ok, so what! If you can > > build a heavy multi hull in significantly less time > > and for less cost and you trade that for speed is that > > an ok trade? Multihull people then say "but it can > > sink since it isnt foam and glass". Well mono's sink > > all the time. Big multi with each hull broke up into > > at least 4 compartments that can be entirely sealed > > with dogging doors both entry and going from > > compartment to compartment would be hell to sink > > compared to most monos. > > > > I looked up those propane tanks. a 30,000 gallon tank > > is 9.5 ft in diameter, 64 ft long. used I have seen > > price ranges from 3,000 to 15,000 dollars. I don't > > have weight on it yet. They probably are excedingly > > heavy since they are specked to safely contain 250lbs > > per square inch of pressure. > > > > what if it could be done? how about three of those 64 > > foot tanks tied together. Forget about building a > > bridge deck all together. Just those three tanks > > contains approx 960 sqft of floor space assuming that > > you build a interior deck where you have 5 ft of width > > between the outer walls of the tank. A lot of your > > mecanicals and tanks will fit under that with big > > access hatches to give easy access. Then build three > > or four 5 ft wide cat walks along the top of the beams > > connecting the three hulls and put in lots of webbing > > between those. you've got a huge flat very low windage > > area now. Mabye build one small pilot cabin on the > > center hull 2/3 of the way to the front to pilot from. > > > > I think for my application that steel would be the > > best material. I wouldnt be running from bad weather. > > but rather just act as raft if caught. 64 x 30 is hard > > to tip. probably have several dagger boards for keel > > and just pull them up and just have u-shaped or half > > round hulls in water. should act as very stable raft. > > Just design it so that there are many sealed > > compartments and all designed to survive large waves > > breaking over it for worst case. should have > > relatively shallow draft. Under 4 ft. near land run it > > into shallow water, river, marsh or other sheltered > > place and lift hull out of water so that it acts like > > a very tough house on pilings. water goes under it. > > > > > > ok next email expands on details a bit more as we worked on idea > > > > being able to lift the boat up out of the water on a > > seriously stable leg system has several advantages. > > 1. forget dry dock costs. You can go somewhere with > > even a mild tidal range and get her totally out of the > > water and easily accessable to 100% of the hull for > > maintenance. even if no tidal range you could lift her > > out of the water enough to get a dinghy under her and > > do maintenance. > > 2. if you lift her out of the water for large portions > > of the year as you are based somewhere and operate out > > of your smaller tender then your periods between > > repainting the hull will be greatly extended. > > 3. storms will be less of a threat when not at sea as > > you can lift her above the storm surge. she will big > > and heavy enough to be stable on the legs at this size > > also in bad winds. (this part needs some numbers run > > but I think it is a reasonable assumption up front) > > > > > > thats it exactly a sail assited motorraft or a motor > > assited sailing raft :) lol but yes that is the idea. > > Its a home that moves on the water. > > > > lets figure here. (im going back to imperial units for > > a bit) our volume is approx 21,737 cubic ft for one of > > the hulls at 64 ft long and 9.5 ft in diameter with > > hemispherical ends. multiply that by 64.1 lbs per > > cubic ft(weight of sea water) gives 1,393,341.7 lbs > > total displacement for one hull totally submerged. > > THis would be the 4.75 ft draft displacement figure > > for both hulls together or 696 tons displacement (ok > > im weirded out here. could you check these figures for > > me because this doesn't sound right. this thing is > > going to float like an empty eggshell.) > > > > ok at two feet of draft one cylinder has 47,837 lbs of > > displacement. both hulls would displace 95,675.66 lbs > > or 47 tons > > > > at one ft draft it would displace 34,357.6 lbs for > > both hulls. or about 17 tons. > > > > 3 ft of draft gives us 85560.68 lbs per hull or > > 171121.36 lbs displacement for both hulls or 85 tons > > (i figured tons by dividing lbs displacement by 2000.) > > > > so say totally build and loaded to the gills maybe 50 > > or 60 tons should give us a draft of around 2.5 feet > > or 3/4 of a meter. > > > > i used volume calculater at the following webpage. > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/partoutcyl.html > > for partial volumes > > and > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/outcylinder.html > > for volume of total cylinder. > > > > I have to get dry weight of these tanks. or at least > > metal thickness so i can calculate weight. > > hmm 5 mm steel plate 29.83 ft circumferance and 64 ft > > long weighs 6961 kilograms > > > > 3/16 inch plate would be 6630 kilograms > > > > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > url=/info/carbon/convert/metalcalculator/metalcalculator_kg.htm > > I used this calculator to figure this > > > > so converting to lbs the heavier of them for 5mm sheet > > steel would give us 15346.38 lbs for one hull sheet > > that size 30692.76 lbs for both hulls add in middle > > pod using all the steel in one tank and you get 46038 > > lbs or about 23 tons lets just double that and call it > > the finished vessal. ( i know this is rough but this > > is just a for instance) so we are weighing in at 46 > > tons. Using the partial volume of a cylinder > > calculater from earlier to figure draft gives about a > > 1.5 ft draft for each hull carrying half that tonnage. > > > > just looking at the calculator as I added draft it > > looks as if for roughly every additional inch of draft > > you get roughly another 2.5 tons of displacement per > > hull or thereabouts. ok my mind is bent. I'm going to > > take a break on this today. I have to do all this > > again on paper rather than free handing it here. It > > seems like it should not be that light. i mean we are > > talking a draft of only 1.5 feet (18 inches) 48 cm or > > half a mmeter? thats insane. I must have made an error > > in my figures. If this is true then your wetted > > surface is going to be very minimal and your length to > > width at the water line is going to be about 16 to 1. > > I hate to say this but if you put a shaped bow on this > > thing it should be fairly easy to push. with a small > > long fin keel or some dagger boards for directional > > stability you really could sail it. > > > > at 50 tons with 2 hp per ton displacement two auto > > diesels should push her really well. you would have > > about 4 hp per ton actually if you used a couple small > > volkswagon diesels. > > HULL SPEED = 1.34*lwl^.5 i know this is for mono's so > > it is not going to be very accurate for a cat > > configuration with a 16/1 waterline ratio but it would > > give a hull speed of 10.72 knots with 2 to 3 hp per > > ton displacement. i pulled that formula from this page > > http://hometown.aol.com/bristolyht/screen.html > > > > > > another email here > > > > in your description of concept one did you mean to > > take and create one ovoid section out of two pieces of > > tank or to put two ovoid sections of tank one on top > > of the other between the hulls? > > > > > > I think that concept two would be easier to build with > > 3 or four sections of tank turned 90 degrees to the > > hull and cut on the contour of the hull. and attached > > so that they would be a little over a meter from the > > waterline of the hull. which would extend them about a > > meter and a half to two meters above the top of the > > hull decks. You could then even tie these togeter > > longitudinally with further sections between them > > going for and aft. All those curves being welded > > together would most likey give increadable strength. > > > > just use a plasma cutter to cut them apart and a crane > > to lift into position and tack together. If you had it > > all layed out and cut beforehand a crane for one or > > two days at most would get all the major hull pieces > > tacked together and ready for full welds at your > > convience. > > > > > > if my calculations from earlier were correct you top > > height above water would be about approx 12ft or just > > less than 4 meters tall, 18 meters long? and about 9 > > meters wide > > > > so we have three tanks giving us a 18 by 9 by 4 meter > > structure drawing about a 1/2 meter to 3/4 meters of > > water. ( im just thinking that a little wider would be > > more stable though) say about 12 meters wide. > > > > > > 64 / 3 = about 21 ft per section with 4.5 ft overlap > > at both ends so 21-(4.5+4.5) = 12 ft between hulls so > > 9.5+9.5+12= 31 ft wide > > > > just some more musings :) > > > > > > more musings on spud/mast system > > > > basically the masts would penitrate a welded in well > > all the way thru the hull and be tied into a > > reinforced bulk head. You would not dismount them. > > They would simply be winched straight up and down. say > > 50 ft round or squared steel tube. This gives you > > about a 10 foot bury thru the hull.steel cable > > attached at the top and bottom of mast to pull it up > > or down. Probably on the same winch. while one spools > > out the other spools in. (spool with seperator in > > middle. You would have a heavy raised lip say 6 to 12 > > inches high where the mast comes thru the > > partners/hull/deck level that you can put 1 inch or > > better steel pins thru the mast to hold it in place > > vertically up or down once it is in place. (could be > > some other method but something that will hold mast > > that is not the winch after it is where you want it. > > Maybe even a friction fitting. your hand winches would > > be capable of doing the job. No one winch would have > > to support the whole weight of the vessal. if you had > > 6 poles you could divide the weight of the vessal by 6 > > and then add a bit back for a safety margin. one of > > the barge winches was rated to 90 tons... this would > > be overkill. Acually just take and put a small > > electric auxillary motor on that for normal usage and > > use it manually if there is no power for some reason. > > In the mast position you would have 40 ft unstayed > > masts. if you used junk rig on it you wouldnt even > > have to dismount the sails when going to leg down > > mode. because of the design the boom and full battens > > would just rest in a fore and aft brackets above the > > deck and be lashed down. None of the rig on a junk rig > > is attached anywhere to the mast except the head and > > then on the deck. It just has some ropes at each > > batten that circle the mast and slide up and down > > freely. One person can handle multiple junk rigs with > > ease from the cockpit. That is one of the major > > selling points. A small woman can handle a two masted > > 35 footer by herself on watch in bad weather if it is > > properly set up. Because you only have 40 ft masts you > > are going to lose some of the wind higher up but you > > will make up with that in that junk rigs tend to carry > > about 20% more totall sail area safely than a > > comparable bermudan rig. I'm thinking the legs of mast > > will be on the order of 12 inches in diameter heavy > > steel or 12 inches square. That heavy weight aloft is > > why I was thinking wider is better. Raft stability > > concept. Not sure but your probably looking at about > > 1500 lbs per mast. because of leg mode they would be > > heavier than normal steel masts. | 4007|3977|2004-06-04 10:24:53|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|at about 2.5 ft draft i think the waterline had a 16 to 1 ratio or there abouts.. it would be heavy but would slide thru the water with the greatest of ease :) lol. slow to start and stop but probably pretty easy to keep going. scott ps. put a couple mid sized auto diesels on in each hull and probalby do ok. -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Lots of great ideas, but one thing is sure: you would have a > fantastic Cp ;-) > Gerd | 4008|3977|2004-06-04 10:40:02|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|damn!!! ok lets work with it.... :) back to my trusty calculator for weight and displacement. ok each tank would weigh just a bit more than 74489.02 lbs or arround 37 tons. so my three tank design call it about 110 tons.. big big boy.... ok this is rough but a 4 ft draft would give about 120 tons of displacement. So you could do it. Wether you should is another thing altogether. Actually if you could get the tools and the manpower to build out of one of these it would be increadably strong. almost 1 inch thick steel hulls. . But we are into much heavier tools and welders and equipment to move this stuff around than with a more normal thickness of steel. But it would make a hell of a house :) lol and if that dock got in your way... well it used to be a nice dock :) oh yeah and it really sucked that I scratched my paint on the hull.. lol scott -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > I got curious and looked on-line. A 30,000 gallon tank has a 15/16" > wall thickness. > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." > wrote: > > Actually I think your idea is really cool, I saw a guy in Alaska > take one of the burned out > > tugs from Yutana Tug and Barge. Looks like it was a cool house, but > I think it was just a > > "Liv-a-barge". I had thought about finding an old deck barge to > put a house on and push > > it around with a small tug. After looking at a bunch of junk > barges I decided against it, I > > was worried about my small children (At the time) falling off too. > > > > I think your propane tanks would be really heavy, not to mention > the problem of residual > > chemicals. I could do a quick check and see how thick a 60" 250psi > tank would have to > > be. Off the top of my head between 5/8" and 3/4", I just did up a > drawing for a 36" tank at > > 175 psi and wall thickness was 1/2". > > > > Phil | 4009|3977|2004-06-04 10:53:19|Robert Gainer|Re: Steel Catamaran|All good ideas start out with this reaction from people. First you hear that�s a �stupid idea�, then they say �it can�t be done�, after that you get �no one will buy it� and to top it off, everyone says it was obvious to them after the fact. Bob >From: "audeojude" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran >Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:20:22 -0000 > >Personally I think it is just mental enertia at work. People like >things and are comfortable with things that are familiar and resist >change in general. I have run into it all my life as I tend to in some >ways think outside the box. In others I probably have my own enertia >going on. :) I just try to be aware of it when it happens. I bet the >firts person to build a metal boat got laughed out of the bar :) lol > >i mean everyone knows that metal is heavier than water :) It wont float. > >scott > >audeojude > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Sounds like a reasonable idea . It looks like you've done your > > homework. Could it be possible that the cynics are selling real > > estate, or trying to justify their own real estate debts? > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > > wrote: > > > I have thought about a steel catamaran concept before but it needs > > to > > > be big to get over the weight penalty. > > > > > > :) > > > > > > I came up with a rough design using 30,000 gallon tanks of the kind > > > they store propane and natural gas in. I will copy some of the > > ideas I > > > have emailed others about for this here and see what you think. :) > > > > > > This will be alittle disjointed as I'm copying portions of emails > > that > > > I have previously explored the concept in. I have uploaded the > > images > > > i created for the design to a new folder in the files section called > > > steel catamaran > > > > > > > > > Here is the begining of the idea > > > > > > My goal with my design isn't for a boat to sail on a > > > regular basis but a home to move. with living space > > > and work shop space. Industrial quality finish as > > > opposed to yacht finih. As Indistructable as I can > > > build it. It would have full size power plants and > > > large capacity fuel tanks. You could jack it up out of > > > the water (as much as 10 feet out of the water > > > if needed) for extended periods of time and live that > > > way and use it as a base station to explore an area in > > > with a smaller say 20 foot aux boat. Any of the 4 to 6 > > > steel legs (spuds) in the up position could be used as masts > > > for large junk rig sails. I would expect that it would > > > be slow. In the 5 to 7 knot range > > > > > > The steel catamaran barge concept is just that a concept. I'm not > > > trying to prove it can't be done :) lots of people > > > have said that already. But I haven't seen any > > > referances to people doing it and failing either. Or > > > doing it and it being unusable. I'm trying to be > > > innovative and prove that it can be done. The exercise > > > in and of itself is worth the time and effort. :) If > > > no one tilted at windmills where would the world be? > > > I'm trying to find a way to make it work. I'm not > > > going to spend money on it unless on paper I can make > > > it work both technically and cost wise. > > > > > > What I don't understand is why it is automatically > > > assumed that it is nuts to do? We build very heavy and > > > slow monos all the time. Multihulls are light and fast > > > and give more space. But what if you built heavy > > > multihull. You lose speed. Ok, so what! If you can > > > build a heavy multi hull in significantly less time > > > and for less cost and you trade that for speed is that > > > an ok trade? Multihull people then say "but it can > > > sink since it isnt foam and glass". Well mono's sink > > > all the time. Big multi with each hull broke up into > > > at least 4 compartments that can be entirely sealed > > > with dogging doors both entry and going from > > > compartment to compartment would be hell to sink > > > compared to most monos. > > > > > > I looked up those propane tanks. a 30,000 gallon tank > > > is 9.5 ft in diameter, 64 ft long. used I have seen > > > price ranges from 3,000 to 15,000 dollars. I don't > > > have weight on it yet. They probably are excedingly > > > heavy since they are specked to safely contain 250lbs > > > per square inch of pressure. > > > > > > what if it could be done? how about three of those 64 > > > foot tanks tied together. Forget about building a > > > bridge deck all together. Just those three tanks > > > contains approx 960 sqft of floor space assuming that > > > you build a interior deck where you have 5 ft of width > > > between the outer walls of the tank. A lot of your > > > mecanicals and tanks will fit under that with big > > > access hatches to give easy access. Then build three > > > or four 5 ft wide cat walks along the top of the beams > > > connecting the three hulls and put in lots of webbing > > > between those. you've got a huge flat very low windage > > > area now. Mabye build one small pilot cabin on the > > > center hull 2/3 of the way to the front to pilot from. > > > > > > I think for my application that steel would be the > > > best material. I wouldnt be running from bad weather. > > > but rather just act as raft if caught. 64 x 30 is hard > > > to tip. probably have several dagger boards for keel > > > and just pull them up and just have u-shaped or half > > > round hulls in water. should act as very stable raft. > > > Just design it so that there are many sealed > > > compartments and all designed to survive large waves > > > breaking over it for worst case. should have > > > relatively shallow draft. Under 4 ft. near land run it > > > into shallow water, river, marsh or other sheltered > > > place and lift hull out of water so that it acts like > > > a very tough house on pilings. water goes under it. > > > > > > > > > ok next email expands on details a bit more as we worked on idea > > > > > > being able to lift the boat up out of the water on a > > > seriously stable leg system has several advantages. > > > 1. forget dry dock costs. You can go somewhere with > > > even a mild tidal range and get her totally out of the > > > water and easily accessable to 100% of the hull for > > > maintenance. even if no tidal range you could lift her > > > out of the water enough to get a dinghy under her and > > > do maintenance. > > > 2. if you lift her out of the water for large portions > > > of the year as you are based somewhere and operate out > > > of your smaller tender then your periods between > > > repainting the hull will be greatly extended. > > > 3. storms will be less of a threat when not at sea as > > > you can lift her above the storm surge. she will big > > > and heavy enough to be stable on the legs at this size > > > also in bad winds. (this part needs some numbers run > > > but I think it is a reasonable assumption up front) > > > > > > > > > thats it exactly a sail assited motorraft or a motor > > > assited sailing raft :) lol but yes that is the idea. > > > Its a home that moves on the water. > > > > > > lets figure here. (im going back to imperial units for > > > a bit) our volume is approx 21,737 cubic ft for one of > > > the hulls at 64 ft long and 9.5 ft in diameter with > > > hemispherical ends. multiply that by 64.1 lbs per > > > cubic ft(weight of sea water) gives 1,393,341.7 lbs > > > total displacement for one hull totally submerged. > > > THis would be the 4.75 ft draft displacement figure > > > for both hulls together or 696 tons displacement (ok > > > im weirded out here. could you check these figures for > > > me because this doesn't sound right. this thing is > > > going to float like an empty eggshell.) > > > > > > ok at two feet of draft one cylinder has 47,837 lbs of > > > displacement. both hulls would displace 95,675.66 lbs > > > or 47 tons > > > > > > at one ft draft it would displace 34,357.6 lbs for > > > both hulls. or about 17 tons. > > > > > > 3 ft of draft gives us 85560.68 lbs per hull or > > > 171121.36 lbs displacement for both hulls or 85 tons > > > (i figured tons by dividing lbs displacement by 2000.) > > > > > > so say totally build and loaded to the gills maybe 50 > > > or 60 tons should give us a draft of around 2.5 feet > > > or 3/4 of a meter. > > > > > > i used volume calculater at the following webpage. > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/partoutcyl.html > > > for partial volumes > > > and > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/outcylinder.html > > > for volume of total cylinder. > > > > > > I have to get dry weight of these tanks. or at least > > > metal thickness so i can calculate weight. > > > hmm 5 mm steel plate 29.83 ft circumferance and 64 ft > > > long weighs 6961 kilograms > > > > > > 3/16 inch plate would be 6630 kilograms > > > > > > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > > url=/info/carbon/convert/metalcalculator/metalcalculator_kg.htm > > > I used this calculator to figure this > > > > > > so converting to lbs the heavier of them for 5mm sheet > > > steel would give us 15346.38 lbs for one hull sheet > > > that size 30692.76 lbs for both hulls add in middle > > > pod using all the steel in one tank and you get 46038 > > > lbs or about 23 tons lets just double that and call it > > > the finished vessal. ( i know this is rough but this > > > is just a for instance) so we are weighing in at 46 > > > tons. Using the partial volume of a cylinder > > > calculater from earlier to figure draft gives about a > > > 1.5 ft draft for each hull carrying half that tonnage. > > > > > > just looking at the calculator as I added draft it > > > looks as if for roughly every additional inch of draft > > > you get roughly another 2.5 tons of displacement per > > > hull or thereabouts. ok my mind is bent. I'm going to > > > take a break on this today. I have to do all this > > > again on paper rather than free handing it here. It > > > seems like it should not be that light. i mean we are > > > talking a draft of only 1.5 feet (18 inches) 48 cm or > > > half a mmeter? thats insane. I must have made an error > > > in my figures. If this is true then your wetted > > > surface is going to be very minimal and your length to > > > width at the water line is going to be about 16 to 1. > > > I hate to say this but if you put a shaped bow on this > > > thing it should be fairly easy to push. with a small > > > long fin keel or some dagger boards for directional > > > stability you really could sail it. > > > > > > at 50 tons with 2 hp per ton displacement two auto > > > diesels should push her really well. you would have > > > about 4 hp per ton actually if you used a couple small > > > volkswagon diesels. > > > HULL SPEED = 1.34*lwl^.5 i know this is for mono's so > > > it is not going to be very accurate for a cat > > > configuration with a 16/1 waterline ratio but it would > > > give a hull speed of 10.72 knots with 2 to 3 hp per > > > ton displacement. i pulled that formula from this page > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bristolyht/screen.html > > > > > > > > > another email here > > > > > > in your description of concept one did you mean to > > > take and create one ovoid section out of two pieces of > > > tank or to put two ovoid sections of tank one on top > > > of the other between the hulls? > > > > > > > > > I think that concept two would be easier to build with > > > 3 or four sections of tank turned 90 degrees to the > > > hull and cut on the contour of the hull. and attached > > > so that they would be a little over a meter from the > > > waterline of the hull. which would extend them about a > > > meter and a half to two meters above the top of the > > > hull decks. You could then even tie these togeter > > > longitudinally with further sections between them > > > going for and aft. All those curves being welded > > > together would most likey give increadable strength. > > > > > > just use a plasma cutter to cut them apart and a crane > > > to lift into position and tack together. If you had it > > > all layed out and cut beforehand a crane for one or > > > two days at most would get all the major hull pieces > > > tacked together and ready for full welds at your > > > convience. > > > > > > > > > if my calculations from earlier were correct you top > > > height above water would be about approx 12ft or just > > > less than 4 meters tall, 18 meters long? and about 9 > > > meters wide > > > > > > so we have three tanks giving us a 18 by 9 by 4 meter > > > structure drawing about a 1/2 meter to 3/4 meters of > > > water. ( im just thinking that a little wider would be > > > more stable though) say about 12 meters wide. > > > > > > > > > 64 / 3 = about 21 ft per section with 4.5 ft overlap > > > at both ends so 21-(4.5+4.5) = 12 ft between hulls so > > > 9.5+9.5+12= 31 ft wide > > > > > > just some more musings :) > > > > > > > > > more musings on spud/mast system > > > > > > basically the masts would penitrate a welded in well > > > all the way thru the hull and be tied into a > > > reinforced bulk head. You would not dismount them. > > > They would simply be winched straight up and down. say > > > 50 ft round or squared steel tube. This gives you > > > about a 10 foot bury thru the hull.steel cable > > > attached at the top and bottom of mast to pull it up > > > or down. Probably on the same winch. while one spools > > > out the other spools in. (spool with seperator in > > > middle. You would have a heavy raised lip say 6 to 12 > > > inches high where the mast comes thru the > > > partners/hull/deck level that you can put 1 inch or > > > better steel pins thru the mast to hold it in place > > > vertically up or down once it is in place. (could be > > > some other method but something that will hold mast > > > that is not the winch after it is where you want it. > > > Maybe even a friction fitting. your hand winches would > > > be capable of doing the job. No one winch would have > > > to support the whole weight of the vessal. if you had > > > 6 poles you could divide the weight of the vessal by 6 > > > and then add a bit back for a safety margin. one of > > > the barge winches was rated to 90 tons... this would > > > be overkill. Acually just take and put a small > > > electric auxillary motor on that for normal usage and > > > use it manually if there is no power for some reason. > > > In the mast position you would have 40 ft unstayed > > > masts. if you used junk rig on it you wouldnt even > > > have to dismount the sails when going to leg down > > > mode. because of the design the boom and full battens > > > would just rest in a fore and aft brackets above the > > > deck and be lashed down. None of the rig on a junk rig > > > is attached anywhere to the mast except the head and > > > then on the deck. It just has some ropes at each > > > batten that circle the mast and slide up and down > > > freely. One person can handle multiple junk rigs with > > > ease from the cockpit. That is one of the major > > > selling points. A small woman can handle a two masted > > > 35 footer by herself on watch in bad weather if it is > > > properly set up. Because you only have 40 ft masts you > > > are going to lose some of the wind higher up but you > > > will make up with that in that junk rigs tend to carry > > > about 20% more totall sail area safely than a > > > comparable bermudan rig. I'm thinking the legs of mast > > > will be on the order of 12 inches in diameter heavy > > > steel or 12 inches square. That heavy weight aloft is > > > why I was thinking wider is better. Raft stability > > > concept. Not sure but your probably looking at about > > > 1500 lbs per mast. because of leg mode they would be > > > heavier than normal steel masts. > _________________________________________________________________ Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/| 4010|3977|2004-06-04 10:56:03|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|:) this is my pie in the sky dream of the life i would really like to live. :) most likely I will end up buying a small used sail boat or building one of brents boats to go cruising on for a few years. However I love dreams just for the dreaming even if practically it would take more resources than I have or believe I am likely to get my hands on to do the whole nine yards. But I still love to dream :) There is deep part of me that leans torward a self sufficient life ( and one with as few offical ties to our growing buerocracy) that I can move anywhere I want to go. anyway I could ramble on over a multitude of subjects that all tie into the desire and the possible implimentations of such a dream. I won't subject you to that. I will just leave it at Dreams are what make life worth living. Scott ps . lol now if you can make your dream come true... that is excellence!!!! -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > DEAR AUDEOJUDE excellent contribution to the dreams of many , you have stated the thoughts of what I now know through the trade press and web to be a large shift in the vision of what a human being hopes to achieve by going to sea in a boat with his / her family and making the unselfish compromises which allow a family to have a safe and comfortable holiday and a second home which can be also used by the extended family , friends , business promotion get to know you (while fishing for the take home monster fish look what daddy caught ) and merely mooring in a beautiful place sheltered for the night while the barbecue does its work and the various toys surf boards bikes and showers and twin heads allow a pleasant mellow feeling that things are right in the world at that moment > while the family go about their thing in a truly privileged environment , > it seems unnatural to those who wish to extract a extra solitary knot or two of speed from a cramped and lonely boat that there is another view which thankfully holds no prejudice against them or any other type of boat . > you may wish to study a good site which reflects much of your ideas > try john shuttleworth yacht designs and in particular his aerorig sails cat and you will also see a stress analysis of the spaceframe used to keep the show together . frameless orgami take note fresh air will not do to hold a multi hull together . thanks for the courageously expressed dream many have shared your road quietly . regards denis| 4011|3977|2004-06-04 11:02:06|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|Yep I already posted a message with the weigh of the tanks with the 15/16 inch thick walls for those tanks. Very heavy. Though put three of them side by side and use them as basements and build a house on op and it would certainly be strong. almost 1 inch thick steel would make me comfortable to live on :) residual chemicals would be a large problem and is something I have not researched well. I do know that you have to flush and clean the tanks really really well if you don't want to leave a crater in the ground when you start welding them. Also the chemical in propane that they add to make it stink is really really stinky :) how to neutralize it would be a issue. Scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Actually I think your idea is really cool, I saw a guy in Alaska take one of the burned out > tugs from Yutana Tug and Barge. Looks like it was a cool house, but I think it was just a > "Liv-a-barge". I had thought about finding an old deck barge to put a house on and push > it around with a small tug. After looking at a bunch of junk barges I decided against it, I > was worried about my small children (At the time) falling off too. > > I think your propane tanks would be really heavy, not to mention the problem of residual > chemicals. I could do a quick check and see how thick a 60" 250psi tank would have to > be. Off the top of my head between 5/8" and 3/4", I just did up a drawing for a 36" tank at > 175 psi and wall thickness was 1/2". > > Phil | 4012|3977|2004-06-04 11:03:11|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|lol but to get to that point you have to have a dreamer :) then you have to have a plan :) then you have to have resources to implement the plan. Then you have to implement it. Then you have to use it to prove that your not crazy.. then you get to rub everyones face in it :))) doesn't it suck that most dreamers don't have the resources :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > All good ideas start out with this reaction from people. First you hear > that's a "stupid idea", then they say "it can't be done", after that you get > "no one will buy it" and to top it off, everyone says it was obvious to them > after the fact. > Bob > > > > > >From: "audeojude" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran > >Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:20:22 -0000 > > > >Personally I think it is just mental enertia at work. People like > >things and are comfortable with things that are familiar and resist > >change in general. I have run into it all my life as I tend to in some > >ways think outside the box. In others I probably have my own enertia > >going on. :) I just try to be aware of it when it happens. I bet the > >firts person to build a metal boat got laughed out of the bar :) lol > > > >i mean everyone knows that metal is heavier than water :) It wont float. > > > >scott > > > >audeojude > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Sounds like a reasonable idea . It looks like you've done your > > > homework. Could it be possible that the cynics are selling real > > > estate, or trying to justify their own real estate debts? > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > > > wrote: > > > > I have thought about a steel catamaran concept before but it needs > > > to > > > > be big to get over the weight penalty. > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > I came up with a rough design using 30,000 gallon tanks of the kind > > > > they store propane and natural gas in. I will copy some of the > > > ideas I > > > > have emailed others about for this here and see what you think. :) > > > > > > > > This will be alittle disjointed as I'm copying portions of emails > > > that > > > > I have previously explored the concept in. I have uploaded the > > > images > > > > i created for the design to a new folder in the files section called > > > > steel catamaran > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the begining of the idea > > > > > > > > My goal with my design isn't for a boat to sail on a > > > > regular basis but a home to move. with living space > > > > and work shop space. Industrial quality finish as > > > > opposed to yacht finih. As Indistructable as I can > > > > build it. It would have full size power plants and > > > > large capacity fuel tanks. You could jack it up out of > > > > the water (as much as 10 feet out of the water > > > > if needed) for extended periods of time and live that > > > > way and use it as a base station to explore an area in > > > > with a smaller say 20 foot aux boat. Any of the 4 to 6 > > > > steel legs (spuds) in the up position could be used as masts > > > > for large junk rig sails. I would expect that it would > > > > be slow. In the 5 to 7 knot range > > > > > > > > The steel catamaran barge concept is just that a concept. I'm not > > > > trying to prove it can't be done :) lots of people > > > > have said that already. But I haven't seen any > > > > referances to people doing it and failing either. Or > > > > doing it and it being unusable. I'm trying to be > > > > innovative and prove that it can be done. The exercise > > > > in and of itself is worth the time and effort. :) If > > > > no one tilted at windmills where would the world be? > > > > I'm trying to find a way to make it work. I'm not > > > > going to spend money on it unless on paper I can make > > > > it work both technically and cost wise. > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why it is automatically > > > > assumed that it is nuts to do? We build very heavy and > > > > slow monos all the time. Multihulls are light and fast > > > > and give more space. But what if you built heavy > > > > multihull. You lose speed. Ok, so what! If you can > > > > build a heavy multi hull in significantly less time > > > > and for less cost and you trade that for speed is that > > > > an ok trade? Multihull people then say "but it can > > > > sink since it isnt foam and glass". Well mono's sink > > > > all the time. Big multi with each hull broke up into > > > > at least 4 compartments that can be entirely sealed > > > > with dogging doors both entry and going from > > > > compartment to compartment would be hell to sink > > > > compared to most monos. > > > > > > > > I looked up those propane tanks. a 30,000 gallon tank > > > > is 9.5 ft in diameter, 64 ft long. used I have seen > > > > price ranges from 3,000 to 15,000 dollars. I don't > > > > have weight on it yet. They probably are excedingly > > > > heavy since they are specked to safely contain 250lbs > > > > per square inch of pressure. > > > > > > > > what if it could be done? how about three of those 64 > > > > foot tanks tied together. Forget about building a > > > > bridge deck all together. Just those three tanks > > > > contains approx 960 sqft of floor space assuming that > > > > you build a interior deck where you have 5 ft of width > > > > between the outer walls of the tank. A lot of your > > > > mecanicals and tanks will fit under that with big > > > > access hatches to give easy access. Then build three > > > > or four 5 ft wide cat walks along the top of the beams > > > > connecting the three hulls and put in lots of webbing > > > > between those. you've got a huge flat very low windage > > > > area now. Mabye build one small pilot cabin on the > > > > center hull 2/3 of the way to the front to pilot from. > > > > > > > > I think for my application that steel would be the > > > > best material. I wouldnt be running from bad weather. > > > > but rather just act as raft if caught. 64 x 30 is hard > > > > to tip. probably have several dagger boards for keel > > > > and just pull them up and just have u-shaped or half > > > > round hulls in water. should act as very stable raft. > > > > Just design it so that there are many sealed > > > > compartments and all designed to survive large waves > > > > breaking over it for worst case. should have > > > > relatively shallow draft. Under 4 ft. near land run it > > > > into shallow water, river, marsh or other sheltered > > > > place and lift hull out of water so that it acts like > > > > a very tough house on pilings. water goes under it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok next email expands on details a bit more as we worked on idea > > > > > > > > being able to lift the boat up out of the water on a > > > > seriously stable leg system has several advantages. > > > > 1. forget dry dock costs. You can go somewhere with > > > > even a mild tidal range and get her totally out of the > > > > water and easily accessable to 100% of the hull for > > > > maintenance. even if no tidal range you could lift her > > > > out of the water enough to get a dinghy under her and > > > > do maintenance. > > > > 2. if you lift her out of the water for large portions > > > > of the year as you are based somewhere and operate out > > > > of your smaller tender then your periods between > > > > repainting the hull will be greatly extended. > > > > 3. storms will be less of a threat when not at sea as > > > > you can lift her above the storm surge. she will big > > > > and heavy enough to be stable on the legs at this size > > > > also in bad winds. (this part needs some numbers run > > > > but I think it is a reasonable assumption up front) > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it exactly a sail assited motorraft or a motor > > > > assited sailing raft :) lol but yes that is the idea. > > > > Its a home that moves on the water. > > > > > > > > lets figure here. (im going back to imperial units for > > > > a bit) our volume is approx 21,737 cubic ft for one of > > > > the hulls at 64 ft long and 9.5 ft in diameter with > > > > hemispherical ends. multiply that by 64.1 lbs per > > > > cubic ft(weight of sea water) gives 1,393,341.7 lbs > > > > total displacement for one hull totally submerged. > > > > THis would be the 4.75 ft draft displacement figure > > > > for both hulls together or 696 tons displacement (ok > > > > im weirded out here. could you check these figures for > > > > me because this doesn't sound right. this thing is > > > > going to float like an empty eggshell.) > > > > > > > > ok at two feet of draft one cylinder has 47,837 lbs of > > > > displacement. both hulls would displace 95,675.66 lbs > > > > or 47 tons > > > > > > > > at one ft draft it would displace 34,357.6 lbs for > > > > both hulls. or about 17 tons. > > > > > > > > 3 ft of draft gives us 85560.68 lbs per hull or > > > > 171121.36 lbs displacement for both hulls or 85 tons > > > > (i figured tons by dividing lbs displacement by 2000.) > > > > > > > > so say totally build and loaded to the gills maybe 50 > > > > or 60 tons should give us a draft of around 2.5 feet > > > > or 3/4 of a meter. > > > > > > > > i used volume calculater at the following webpage. > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/partoutcyl.html > > > > for partial volumes > > > > and > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/outcylinder.html > > > > for volume of total cylinder. > > > > > > > > I have to get dry weight of these tanks. or at least > > > > metal thickness so i can calculate weight. > > > > hmm 5 mm steel plate 29.83 ft circumferance and 64 ft > > > > long weighs 6961 kilograms > > > > > > > > 3/16 inch plate would be 6630 kilograms > > > > > > > > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > > > url=/info/carbon/convert/metalcalculator/metalcalculator_kg.htm > > > > I used this calculator to figure this > > > > > > > > so converting to lbs the heavier of them for 5mm sheet > > > > steel would give us 15346.38 lbs for one hull sheet > > > > that size 30692.76 lbs for both hulls add in middle > > > > pod using all the steel in one tank and you get 46038 > > > > lbs or about 23 tons lets just double that and call it > > > > the finished vessal. ( i know this is rough but this > > > > is just a for instance) so we are weighing in at 46 > > > > tons. Using the partial volume of a cylinder > > > > calculater from earlier to figure draft gives about a > > > > 1.5 ft draft for each hull carrying half that tonnage. > > > > > > > > just looking at the calculator as I added draft it > > > > looks as if for roughly every additional inch of draft > > > > you get roughly another 2.5 tons of displacement per > > > > hull or thereabouts. ok my mind is bent. I'm going to > > > > take a break on this today. I have to do all this > > > > again on paper rather than free handing it here. It > > > > seems like it should not be that light. i mean we are > > > > talking a draft of only 1.5 feet (18 inches) 48 cm or > > > > half a mmeter? thats insane. I must have made an error > > > > in my figures. If this is true then your wetted > > > > surface is going to be very minimal and your length to > > > > width at the water line is going to be about 16 to 1. > > > > I hate to say this but if you put a shaped bow on this > > > > thing it should be fairly easy to push. with a small > > > > long fin keel or some dagger boards for directional > > > > stability you really could sail it. > > > > > > > > at 50 tons with 2 hp per ton displacement two auto > > > > diesels should push her really well. you would have > > > > about 4 hp per ton actually if you used a couple small > > > > volkswagon diesels. > > > > HULL SPEED = 1.34*lwl^.5 i know this is for mono's so > > > > it is not going to be very accurate for a cat > > > > configuration with a 16/1 waterline ratio but it would > > > > give a hull speed of 10.72 knots with 2 to 3 hp per > > > > ton displacement. i pulled that formula from this page > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bristolyht/screen.html > > > > > > > > > > > > another email here > > > > > > > > in your description of concept one did you mean to > > > > take and create one ovoid section out of two pieces of > > > > tank or to put two ovoid sections of tank one on top > > > > of the other between the hulls? > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that concept two would be easier to build with > > > > 3 or four sections of tank turned 90 degrees to the > > > > hull and cut on the contour of the hull. and attached > > > > so that they would be a little over a meter from the > > > > waterline of the hull. which would extend them about a > > > > meter and a half to two meters above the top of the > > > > hull decks. You could then even tie these togeter > > > > longitudinally with further sections between them > > > > going for and aft. All those curves being welded > > > > together would most likey give increadable strength. > > > > > > > > just use a plasma cutter to cut them apart and a crane > > > > to lift into position and tack together. If you had it > > > > all layed out and cut beforehand a crane for one or > > > > two days at most would get all the major hull pieces > > > > tacked together and ready for full welds at your > > > > convience. > > > > > > > > > > > > if my calculations from earlier were correct you top > > > > height above water would be about approx 12ft or just > > > > less than 4 meters tall, 18 meters long? and about 9 > > > > meters wide > > > > > > > > so we have three tanks giving us a 18 by 9 by 4 meter > > > > structure drawing about a 1/2 meter to 3/4 meters of > > > > water. ( im just thinking that a little wider would be > > > > more stable though) say about 12 meters wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > 64 / 3 = about 21 ft per section with 4.5 ft overlap > > > > at both ends so 21-(4.5+4.5) = 12 ft between hulls so > > > > 9.5+9.5+12= 31 ft wide > > > > > > > > just some more musings :) > > > > > > > > > > > > more musings on spud/mast system > > > > > > > > basically the masts would penitrate a welded in well > > > > all the way thru the hull and be tied into a > > > > reinforced bulk head. You would not dismount them. > > > > They would simply be winched straight up and down. say > > > > 50 ft round or squared steel tube. This gives you > > > > about a 10 foot bury thru the hull.steel cable > > > > attached at the top and bottom of mast to pull it up > > > > or down. Probably on the same winch. while one spools > > > > out the other spools in. (spool with seperator in > > > > middle. You would have a heavy raised lip say 6 to 12 > > > > inches high where the mast comes thru the > > > > partners/hull/deck level that you can put 1 inch or > > > > better steel pins thru the mast to hold it in place > > > > vertically up or down once it is in place. (could be > > > > some other method but something that will hold mast > > > > that is not the winch after it is where you want it. > > > > Maybe even a friction fitting. your hand winches would > > > > be capable of doing the job. No one winch would have > > > > to support the whole weight of the vessal. if you had > > > > 6 poles you could divide the weight of the vessal by 6 > > > > and then add a bit back for a safety margin. one of > > > > the barge winches was rated to 90 tons... this would > > > > be overkill. Acually just take and put a small > > > > electric auxillary motor on that for normal usage and > > > > use it manually if there is no power for some reason. > > > > In the mast position you would have 40 ft unstayed > > > > masts. if you used junk rig on it you wouldnt even > > > > have to dismount the sails when going to leg down > > > > mode. because of the design the boom and full battens > > > > would just rest in a fore and aft brackets above the > > > > deck and be lashed down. None of the rig on a junk rig > > > > is attached anywhere to the mast except the head and > > > > then on the deck. It just has some ropes at each > > > > batten that circle the mast and slide up and down > > > > freely. One person can handle multiple junk rigs with > > > > ease from the cockpit. That is one of the major > > > > selling points. A small woman can handle a two masted > > > > 35 footer by herself on watch in bad weather if it is > > > > properly set up. Because you only have 40 ft masts you > > > > are going to lose some of the wind higher up but you > > > > will make up with that in that junk rigs tend to carry > > > > about 20% more totall sail area safely than a > > > > comparable bermudan rig. I'm thinking the legs of mast > > > > will be on the order of 12 inches in diameter heavy > > > > steel or 12 inches square. That heavy weight aloft is > > > > why I was thinking wider is better. Raft stability > > > > concept. Not sure but your probably looking at about > > > > 1500 lbs per mast. because of leg mode they would be > > > > heavier than normal steel masts. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN > House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ | 4013|4013|2004-06-04 12:44:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|resources|I'm not advocating borrowed money. It can be a road to poverty for many. It can also be a road to opportunity for those who lack resources. It got me started cruising, when others were telling me that I needed to sit tied to a desk for another 30 years. The difference between today and tomorrow is opportunity. Today you have the opportunity to do something. Tomorrow, the opportunity you have today is gone. Opportunity is worth something, and once lost, it can never be recaptured. If the value of the opportunity today is worth more than the cost of acting today, you should take advantage of opportunity. Dreams for the most part are opportunity unrealized - opportunity seen but not acted on. Keep in mind. Borrowed money is in today's dollars, while you pay back in tomorrow's dollars. Tomorrow's dollars are usually worth less than today's dollars. The difference between the rate of inflation and your interest rate is the "real" cost of borrowing. Don't simply just "borrow". Look to see if you can get a loan with a very low "real" interest rate. When inflation is increasing, you may even find a loan with a negative "real" interest rate, as would be the case if you had borrowed to buy steel and plywood before the recent price increases. Again, I'm not saying to go borrow money. Rather, that with information, you can tell when it is in your best interest to borrow, or when it is in the bank's best interest. Only borrow when it is in your best interest. This is one way to take advantage of opportunity, to act on dreams to turn them into reality. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com doesn't it suck that most dreamers don't have the resources :)| 4014|3977|2004-06-04 12:55:29|Phil S.|Re: Steel Catamaran|Hi Scott; Here is a different idea. Split the tanks in half, you don't need all of that thickness above the water line, It would greatly reduce the dead weight displacement. Weld a deck to the top of them and some sort of structure on top of that. You could use a couple of High aspect I beams to keep it all level. Phil| 4015|4013|2004-06-04 13:03:42|Phil S.|Re: resources|Greg: I disagree, IMHO. Don't borrow money, ever! I got a house loan to build my house with, it was the biggest mistake of my life. If I had just paid for the materials as I went, it would have only taken me maybe another year to move in and I wouldn't have had to pay for lawyers, appraisers, and the other associated vultures taking money for very little effort. As it was the house cost me an additional $24,000 just in bank fees and interest, not mention the stress of having them inspecting my every move. You are much farther ahead and with less stress if you don't owe money. What you do have is yours. Phil| 4016|4013|2004-06-04 13:15:04|Michael Casling|Re: resources|Nothing wrong with that approach either Phil. The banks are a pain, fortunately we had an alternative with a trust company and avoided the inspections and crap. We built just as the prices for wood were going up, by borrowing we saved a large amount. We also purchased the property at the bottom of the market. There are a lot of variables with this so we each need to assess the situation as you have done. For many the pay as you go is the answer. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: resources Greg: I disagree, IMHO. Don't borrow money, ever! I got a house loan to build my house with, it was the biggest mistake of my life. If I had just paid for the materials as I went, it would have only taken me maybe another year to move in and I wouldn't have had to pay for lawyers, appraisers, and the other associated vultures taking money for very little effort. As it was the house cost me an additional $24,000 just in bank fees and interest, not mention the stress of having them inspecting my every move. You are much farther ahead and with less stress if you don't owe money. What you do have is yours. Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4017|4013|2004-06-04 13:17:11|Michael Casling|Re: resources|It is okay to borrow for something that goes up in value or if the interest is replacing rent. It is okay if you can exspense the interest, it is okay if you have the cash flow to pay off the note in a short time, okay if you borrow less than 50% of the value. What gets folks in to trouble is borrowing to by a Camaro that depreciates, and pay high rates for a long time, and a sail boat that is too big, too exspensive, when the wants exceed the needs. Strikes me that most of the members on this board are thrifty which is a good place to start. We borrowed a small amount to buy the farm and again to build a new house. Last year the property went up in value by an amount greater than the purchase price. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 9:38 AM Subject: [origamiboats] resources I'm not advocating borrowed money. It can be a road to poverty for many. It can also be a road to opportunity for those who lack resources. It got me started cruising, when others were telling me that I needed to sit tied to a desk for another 30 years. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4018|3995|2004-06-04 13:52:22|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Mig Welding|Hi Sean, You mentioned that you were in Vancouver. I'm in North Van. You building a Brentboat? Mind if I come & hava a look? My Phone #'s are 604-988-8398, cell 604-219-8818 What kind of mig do you have? Thanks also for confirming that it should be easier than I expected as, although you don't get quite the penetration with gas compared to fluxcored, it's a helluva lot easer to produce a very sexy weld (if welds can be sexy...) with no cleanup. Also, as exerything is welded from both sides, the penetration issue is a moot point Cheers, Shane --- Sean Flynn wrote: --------------------------------- > that is why for exterior work you use flux cored wire > which is exactly the same as stick welding exept it's > a LOT easier to produce a good quality weld than stick > welding (which is closer to an art form) As Shane has said, flux cored wire is what you should be using while MIG welding outside. It will become impractical in the same wind conditions that a stick welder will be as both flux cored Mig (FCAW) and Stick (SMAW) are both using the gas created by the flux to shield the weld. I've heard the argument that you can't MIG weld with gas (GMAW) outside repeatedly but it is a rule that can be broken - if you are careful and are aware of the limitations. I've done several large projects outside in my car port (roof and two walls created by the presence of the house) without much troubles from the wind. It is more rare but if the weather is right, I can work in the driveway also. If there is alot of wind, I have to put the gas away and go to flux-core or tackle a different aspect of the project (cutting, shaping, grinding, painting, etc) but most conditions I can get by with minimal shelter. Maybe I have great luck with the weather or maybe my yard is well protected. Thinking recently, over the past 2 months in Vancouver, I have been working outside every weekend on a few different projects, MIG welding with gas and welding from sun-up to sun-down on Saturday and Sunday. In that time I think I have had to grind out maybe 5 or 6 welds that were porous. You can usually feel the gust of wind hit you and hear the bubbles come to the surface in the weld and see them out of the corner of your eye so you can stop welding right away to fix your problem before you drag the gas bubbles along with your weld. A minute or two with the grinder and the bead is gone and I pick up where I left off. I think that the time I saved by using MIG over stick allowed me to fix those welds at a very leisurely rate while enjoying a beer and still be ahead of the game. Of course, if I had just gone to the store and gotten come flux-core wire, I might have been even farther ahead of the game but I'm lazy and the store is a long ways away and I might have gotten stuck in traffic so who knows. :) That and I hate chipping slag - one of the main reasons that had me wanting to be able to weld some method other than stick. Sean To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4019|4013|2004-06-04 13:57:49|Gerd|Re: resources|Greg, the banks know all of that already, and better, and THEY make the cash on ME... ;-) Borrowing to realize a profit on a boat seems risky to say the least. Although: Some 20 years ago in france there was a tax exemption on ivestment into tourist industrie in the DOM TOM, the oversieas departments. At that time you could - create a company that leased a boat and transfer the boat as tourist equipment to say antigua - deduct the entire value once from your taxes (rate 50 % for the gib earners) - transfer the lease cost of the chartercompany back to the shareholding mother company and deduct the same amount there again as loss. That meant that, including a rough 10 % of the listprice for yearly maintenance and crew, and very little real charter so as not do damage the boat too much, you would have a boat free for sale, for literally NOTHING, all paid from your taxes. - if, that is, you had that much taxes to pay in the first place, would not work for guys like us... This is the reason why france suddenly started to build 60, 80. 120 footers like mudcakes. I was at that time with DYNAMIQUE (created by the young Jeanneau-kids), and we were selling 60 and 80 footers like crazy. I remember still the guys running literally from stand to stand on the Paris boatshow, waving their checkbook and asking what we still could deliver for a million us before the first of February (deadline for launching and declaring a fist fake export). I know of several big boats like that that the owner never even saw. The situation was so crazy that Dynamique actually built a 110', including whirlpool on deck, self financed and on stock witout order, counting on somebody to come up with the cash when it would be ready. That one then brocke their neck though... Gerd , the YAGO PROJECT at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I'm not advocating borrowed money. It can be a road to poverty for many. It can also be a road to opportunity for those who lack > resources. It got me started cruising, when others were telling me that I needed to sit tied to a desk for another 30 years. > > The difference between today and tomorrow is opportunity. Today you have the opportunity to do something. Tomorrow, the > opportunity you have today is gone. Opportunity is worth something, and once lost, it can never be recaptured. If the value of the > opportunity today is worth more than the cost of acting today, you should take advantage of opportunity. Dreams for the most part > are opportunity unrealized - opportunity seen but not acted on. > > Keep in mind. Borrowed money is in today's dollars, while you pay back in tomorrow's dollars. Tomorrow's dollars are usually worth > less than today's dollars. The difference between the rate of inflation and your interest rate is the "real" cost of borrowing. > Don't simply just "borrow". Look to see if you can get a loan with a very low "real" interest rate. When inflation is increasing, > you may even find a loan with a negative "real" interest rate, as would be the case if you had borrowed to buy steel and plywood > before the recent price increases. > > Again, I'm not saying to go borrow money. Rather, that with information, you can tell when it is in your best interest to borrow, > or when it is in the bank's best interest. Only borrow when it is in your best interest. This is one way to take advantage of > opportunity, to act on dreams to turn them into reality. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > doesn't it suck that most dreamers don't have the resources :) | 4020|4013|2004-06-04 17:28:31|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: resources|A bank is a tool, just like a hammer. Learn how it works, and you can do things in a hurry. Try and use it without knowing what you are doing, and it will hurt you. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com| 4021|4004|2004-06-04 17:47:29|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Hull Progress|Phil, Remember one thing, building a boat is JUST like building a house. Either one is a watertight box in a matter of days. It is all the little details you add AFTER it is a watertight box that takes all the time! Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil S." To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 8:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hull Progress > Alex and Brent; > Wow!!! I can't wait to show these pictures to my wife, she has been sceptical about this > project. I keep telling her that compared to building the house the boat will be a snap. > Alex how far are you from Vancouver? > Phil > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4022|3977|2004-06-04 17:52:35|Jim Phillips|Re: Steel Catamaran|"Happy are those who dream their Dreams, but truly happy are those who are prepared to pay the price to make them come true." C'mon Scott. Go for it, mate. How about an initial rough costing? Jim. Brisbane, Australia. audeojude wrote: lol but to get to that point you have to have a dreamer :) then you have to have a plan :) then you have to have resources to implement the plan. Then you have to implement it. Then you have to use it to prove that your not crazy.. then you get to rub everyones face in it :))) doesn't it suck that most dreamers don't have the resources :) scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > All good ideas start out with this reaction from people. First you hear > that's a "stupid idea", then they say "it can't be done", after that you get > "no one will buy it" and to top it off, everyone says it was obvious to them > after the fact. > Bob > > > > > >From: "audeojude" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran > >Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:20:22 -0000 > > > >Personally I think it is just mental enertia at work. People like > >things and are comfortable with things that are familiar and resist > >change in general. I have run into it all my life as I tend to in some > >ways think outside the box. In others I probably have my own enertia > >going on. :) I just try to be aware of it when it happens. I bet the > >firts person to build a metal boat got laughed out of the bar :) lol > > > >i mean everyone knows that metal is heavier than water :) It wont float. > > > >scott > > > >audeojude > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Sounds like a reasonable idea . It looks like you've done your > > > homework. Could it be possible that the cynics are selling real > > > estate, or trying to justify their own real estate debts? > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > > > wrote: > > > > I have thought about a steel catamaran concept before but it needs > > > to > > > > be big to get over the weight penalty. > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > I came up with a rough design using 30,000 gallon tanks of the kind > > > > they store propane and natural gas in. I will copy some of the > > > ideas I > > > > have emailed others about for this here and see what you think. :) > > > > > > > > This will be alittle disjointed as I'm copying portions of emails > > > that > > > > I have previously explored the concept in. I have uploaded the > > > images > > > > i created for the design to a new folder in the files section called > > > > steel catamaran > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the begining of the idea > > > > > > > > My goal with my design isn't for a boat to sail on a > > > > regular basis but a home to move. with living space > > > > and work shop space. Industrial quality finish as > > > > opposed to yacht finih. As Indistructable as I can > > > > build it. It would have full size power plants and > > > > large capacity fuel tanks. You could jack it up out of > > > > the water (as much as 10 feet out of the water > > > > if needed) for extended periods of time and live that > > > > way and use it as a base station to explore an area in > > > > with a smaller say 20 foot aux boat. Any of the 4 to 6 > > > > steel legs (spuds) in the up position could be used as masts > > > > for large junk rig sails. I would expect that it would > > > > be slow. In the 5 to 7 knot range > > > > > > > > The steel catamaran barge concept is just that a concept. I'm not > > > > trying to prove it can't be done :) lots of people > > > > have said that already. But I haven't seen any > > > > referances to people doing it and failing either. Or > > > > doing it and it being unusable. I'm trying to be > > > > innovative and prove that it can be done. The exercise > > > > in and of itself is worth the time and effort. :) If > > > > no one tilted at windmills where would the world be? > > > > I'm trying to find a way to make it work. I'm not > > > > going to spend money on it unless on paper I can make > > > > it work both technically and cost wise. > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why it is automatically > > > > assumed that it is nuts to do? We build very heavy and > > > > slow monos all the time. Multihulls are light and fast > > > > and give more space. But what if you built heavy > > > > multihull. You lose speed. Ok, so what! If you can > > > > build a heavy multi hull in significantly less time > > > > and for less cost and you trade that for speed is that > > > > an ok trade? Multihull people then say "but it can > > > > sink since it isnt foam and glass". Well mono's sink > > > > all the time. Big multi with each hull broke up into > > > > at least 4 compartments that can be entirely sealed > > > > with dogging doors both entry and going from > > > > compartment to compartment would be hell to sink > > > > compared to most monos. > > > > > > > > I looked up those propane tanks. a 30,000 gallon tank > > > > is 9.5 ft in diameter, 64 ft long. used I have seen > > > > price ranges from 3,000 to 15,000 dollars. I don't > > > > have weight on it yet. They probably are excedingly > > > > heavy since they are specked to safely contain 250lbs > > > > per square inch of pressure. > > > > > > > > what if it could be done? how about three of those 64 > > > > foot tanks tied together. Forget about building a > > > > bridge deck all together. Just those three tanks > > > > contains approx 960 sqft of floor space assuming that > > > > you build a interior deck where you have 5 ft of width > > > > between the outer walls of the tank. A lot of your > > > > mecanicals and tanks will fit under that with big > > > > access hatches to give easy access. Then build three > > > > or four 5 ft wide cat walks along the top of the beams > > > > connecting the three hulls and put in lots of webbing > > > > between those. you've got a huge flat very low windage > > > > area now. Mabye build one small pilot cabin on the > > > > center hull 2/3 of the way to the front to pilot from. > > > > > > > > I think for my application that steel would be the > > > > best material. I wouldnt be running from bad weather. > > > > but rather just act as raft if caught. 64 x 30 is hard > > > > to tip. probably have several dagger boards for keel > > > > and just pull them up and just have u-shaped or half > > > > round hulls in water. should act as very stable raft. > > > > Just design it so that there are many sealed > > > > compartments and all designed to survive large waves > > > > breaking over it for worst case. should have > > > > relatively shallow draft. Under 4 ft. near land run it > > > > into shallow water, river, marsh or other sheltered > > > > place and lift hull out of water so that it acts like > > > > a very tough house on pilings. water goes under it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok next email expands on details a bit more as we worked on idea > > > > > > > > being able to lift the boat up out of the water on a > > > > seriously stable leg system has several advantages. > > > > 1. forget dry dock costs. You can go somewhere with > > > > even a mild tidal range and get her totally out of the > > > > water and easily accessable to 100% of the hull for > > > > maintenance. even if no tidal range you could lift her > > > > out of the water enough to get a dinghy under her and > > > > do maintenance. > > > > 2. if you lift her out of the water for large portions > > > > of the year as you are based somewhere and operate out > > > > of your smaller tender then your periods between > > > > repainting the hull will be greatly extended. > > > > 3. storms will be less of a threat when not at sea as > > > > you can lift her above the storm surge. she will big > > > > and heavy enough to be stable on the legs at this size > > > > also in bad winds. (this part needs some numbers run > > > > but I think it is a reasonable assumption up front) > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it exactly a sail assited motorraft or a motor > > > > assited sailing raft :) lol but yes that is the idea. > > > > Its a home that moves on the water. > > > > > > > > lets figure here. (im going back to imperial units for > > > > a bit) our volume is approx 21,737 cubic ft for one of > > > > the hulls at 64 ft long and 9.5 ft in diameter with > > > > hemispherical ends. multiply that by 64.1 lbs per > > > > cubic ft(weight of sea water) gives 1,393,341.7 lbs > > > > total displacement for one hull totally submerged. > > > > THis would be the 4.75 ft draft displacement figure > > > > for both hulls together or 696 tons displacement (ok > > > > im weirded out here. could you check these figures for > > > > me because this doesn't sound right. this thing is > > > > going to float like an empty eggshell.) > > > > > > > > ok at two feet of draft one cylinder has 47,837 lbs of > > > > displacement. both hulls would displace 95,675.66 lbs > > > > or 47 tons > > > > > > > > at one ft draft it would displace 34,357.6 lbs for > > > > both hulls. or about 17 tons. > > > > > > > > 3 ft of draft gives us 85560.68 lbs per hull or > > > > 171121.36 lbs displacement for both hulls or 85 tons > > > > (i figured tons by dividing lbs displacement by 2000.) > > > > > > > > so say totally build and loaded to the gills maybe 50 > > > > or 60 tons should give us a draft of around 2.5 feet > > > > or 3/4 of a meter. > > > > > > > > i used volume calculater at the following webpage. > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/partoutcyl.html > > > > for partial volumes > > > > and > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/outcylinder.html > > > > for volume of total cylinder. > > > > > > > > I have to get dry weight of these tanks. or at least > > > > metal thickness so i can calculate weight. > > > > hmm 5 mm steel plate 29.83 ft circumferance and 64 ft > > > > long weighs 6961 kilograms > > > > > > > > 3/16 inch plate would be 6630 kilograms > > > > > > > > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > > > url=/info/carbon/convert/metalcalculator/metalcalculator_kg.htm > > > > I used this calculator to figure this > > > > > > > > so converting to lbs the heavier of them for 5mm sheet > > > > steel would give us 15346.38 lbs for one hull sheet > > > > that size 30692.76 lbs for both hulls add in middle > > > > pod using all the steel in one tank and you get 46038 > > > > lbs or about 23 tons lets just double that and call it > > > > the finished vessal. ( i know this is rough but this > > > > is just a for instance) so we are weighing in at 46 > > > > tons. Using the partial volume of a cylinder > > > > calculater from earlier to figure draft gives about a > > > > 1.5 ft draft for each hull carrying half that tonnage. > > > > > > > > just looking at the calculator as I added draft it > > > > looks as if for roughly every additional inch of draft > > > > you get roughly another 2.5 tons of displacement per > > > > hull or thereabouts. ok my mind is bent. I'm going to > > > > take a break on this today. I have to do all this > > > > again on paper rather than free handing it here. It > > > > seems like it should not be that light. i mean we are > > > > talking a draft of only 1.5 feet (18 inches) 48 cm or > > > > half a mmeter? thats insane. I must have made an error > > > > in my figures. If this is true then your wetted > > > > surface is going to be very minimal and your length to > > > > width at the water line is going to be about 16 to 1. > > > > I hate to say this but if you put a shaped bow on this > > > > thing it should be fairly easy to push. with a small > > > > long fin keel or some dagger boards for directional > > > > stability you really could sail it. > > > > > > > > at 50 tons with 2 hp per ton displacement two auto > > > > diesels should push her really well. you would have > > > > about 4 hp per ton actually if you used a couple small > > > > volkswagon diesels. > > > > HULL SPEED = 1.34*lwl^.5 i know this is for mono's so > > > > it is not going to be very accurate for a cat > > > > configuration with a 16/1 waterline ratio but it would > > > > give a hull speed of 10.72 knots with 2 to 3 hp per > > > > ton displacement. i pulled that formula from this page > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bristolyht/screen.html > > > > > > > > > > > > another email here > > > > > > > > in your description of concept one did you mean to > > > > take and create one ovoid section out of two pieces of > > > > tank or to put two ovoid sections of tank one on top > > > > of the other between the hulls? > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that concept two would be easier to build with > > > > 3 or four sections of tank turned 90 degrees to the > > > > hull and cut on the contour of the hull. and attached > > > > so that they would be a little over a meter from the > > > > waterline of the hull. which would extend them about a > > > > meter and a half to two meters above the top of the > > > > hull decks. You could then even tie these togeter > > > > longitudinally with further sections between them > > > > going for and aft. All those curves being welded > > > > together would most likey give increadable strength. > > > > > > > > just use a plasma cutter to cut them apart and a crane > > > > to lift into position and tack together. If you had it > > > > all layed out and cut beforehand a crane for one or > > > > two days at most would get all the major hull pieces > > > > tacked together and ready for full welds at your > > > > convience. > > > > > > > > > > > > if my calculations from earlier were correct you top > > > > height above water would be about approx 12ft or just > > > > less than 4 meters tall, 18 meters long? and about 9 > > > > meters wide > > > > > > > > so we have three tanks giving us a 18 by 9 by 4 meter > > > > structure drawing about a 1/2 meter to 3/4 meters of > > > > water. ( im just thinking that a little wider would be > > > > more stable though) say about 12 meters wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > 64 / 3 = about 21 ft per section with 4.5 ft overlap > > > > at both ends so 21-(4.5+4.5) = 12 ft between hulls so > > > > 9.5+9.5+12= 31 ft wide > > > > > > > > just some more musings :) > > > > > > > > > > > > more musings on spud/mast system > > > > > > > > basically the masts would penitrate a welded in well > > > > all the way thru the hull and be tied into a > > > > reinforced bulk head. You would not dismount them. > > > > They would simply be winched straight up and down. say > > > > 50 ft round or squared steel tube. This gives you > > > > about a 10 foot bury thru the hull.steel cable > > > > attached at the top and bottom of mast to pull it up > > > > or down. Probably on the same winch. while one spools > > > > out the other spools in. (spool with seperator in > > > > middle. You would have a heavy raised lip say 6 to 12 > > > > inches high where the mast comes thru the > > > > partners/hull/deck level that you can put 1 inch or > > > > better steel pins thru the mast to hold it in place > > > > vertically up or down once it is in place. (could be > > > > some other method but something that will hold mast > > > > that is not the winch after it is where you want it. > > > > Maybe even a friction fitting. your hand winches would > > > > be capable of doing the job. No one winch would have > > > > to support the whole weight of the vessal. if you had > > > > 6 poles you could divide the weight of the vessal by 6 > > > > and then add a bit back for a safety margin. one of > > > > the barge winches was rated to 90 tons... this would > > > > be overkill. Acually just take and put a small > > > > electric auxillary motor on that for normal usage and > > > > use it manually if there is no power for some reason. > > > > In the mast position you would have 40 ft unstayed > > > > masts. if you used junk rig on it you wouldnt even > > > > have to dismount the sails when going to leg down > > > > mode. because of the design the boom and full battens > > > > would just rest in a fore and aft brackets above the > > > > deck and be lashed down. None of the rig on a junk rig > > > > is attached anywhere to the mast except the head and > > > > then on the deck. It just has some ropes at each > > > > batten that circle the mast and slide up and down > > > > freely. One person can handle multiple junk rigs with > > > > ease from the cockpit. That is one of the major > > > > selling points. A small woman can handle a two masted > > > > 35 footer by herself on watch in bad weather if it is > > > > properly set up. Because you only have 40 ft masts you > > > > are going to lose some of the wind higher up but you > > > > will make up with that in that junk rigs tend to carry > > > > about 20% more totall sail area safely than a > > > > comparable bermudan rig. I'm thinking the legs of mast > > > > will be on the order of 12 inches in diameter heavy > > > > steel or 12 inches square. That heavy weight aloft is > > > > why I was thinking wider is better. Raft stability > > > > concept. Not sure but your probably looking at about > > > > 1500 lbs per mast. because of leg mode they would be > > > > heavier than normal steel masts. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN > House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4023|3890|2004-06-04 17:57:11|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Flame Spray|Greg, Your post sounds very good to me. If you tack on my previous post about what to look for while welding, no ball on the end of the wire, little smoke, no sparks, and a spraying sound, you've got almost everything you need to know to make sound welds, except the practice! One other little tidbit. Using the right filler wire is EXTREMELY important. Years ago someone asked me to weld a Volkswagen engine block, the generator mount was broken completely off. I welded it up and it looked beautiful. We were standing there waiting for it to cool completely when we heard a tiny 'pop' sound. The entire weld fell cleanly out of my carefully V grooved joint! He got me a piece from another broken engine block. I sliced it into filler rods on the vertical bandsaw. I then welded it again and we had no problems. I've done this several time since. Aluminum filler wires though are usually not the same alloy as the base metal. When you weld you are creating a new alloy at the interface between the parent metal and the weld bead. The filler wire is designed to create a strong new alloy with constituents from both the filler wire and the base metal. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > Hi Courtney, > > I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos from the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > for help learning. I found the following: > > The most common welding problems are caused by: > > 1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. > 2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete penetration.. > > Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it contradictory. Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, as the > material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen were done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > certification other that what they learned from other welders and from trial and error. > > The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, practice. The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, cut 6" of welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see when they break, one in one direction, the other in the other > direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 samples, cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend away from the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > incomplete penetration. > > Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the weld area immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other than alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle to weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > > The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire speed guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If the edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably doing a cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, you probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), but this can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice piece to the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to starting any new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > weld reliably. > > However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the voltage and wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire speed while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can produce even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first learning don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then move on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > you have lots of practice. > > If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for welding alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more with regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The faster you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a part along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > turn down the heat. > > For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get a cold weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, without cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > welding using he milling blade. > > I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are soldering, the melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what you see in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into this "puddle". As the puddle fills to the brim of the parent material, you > move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side of the wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers that it has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. > > Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in the end you need to find what works for you. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > . > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > Greg, > > > > Thank you for sharing your experience. > > > > Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL welding" ? > > > > What are the barriers for amateurs ? > > > > I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able to do this. > > > > Appreciatively, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > > ge@... wrote: > > > > > We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what is possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > construction > > > in steel are well understood and documented. What has been lacking in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > use > > > this method to build alloy boats. > > > > > > So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques and made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > construction. > > > > > > Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > as > > > steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather than their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > alloy. > > > > > > For steel welders the significant difference are: > > > > > > 1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be joined must be clean. > > > 2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding steel. > > > 3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a great steel weld. > > > > > > We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood than they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > find > > > that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in steel. > > > > > > We found: > > > > > > 1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > shelter, > > > and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > > > > 2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day (usually a few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > takes > > > practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > > > > > > 3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are much the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > more > > > during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred to a few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > small > > > "button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > hull/deck > > > to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest results. Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting in strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > correct > > > for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > > > > > > 4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work alloy. Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the alloy ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > 100 > > > feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. Allowing the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > Plasma > > > cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > > > > > > 5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > These > > > cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced 2-3 times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > milling > > > blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding disk. Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > > > > History shows that the difference between impossible and possible is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > with > > > sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running in a remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material that they choose. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > s/v Mutiny > > Rhodes Bounty II > > lying Oriental, NC > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4024|3890|2004-06-04 18:30:26|richytill|Re: Flame Spray|Greg, good overview on aluminium welding. And yes, alloy boats are good boats--really good boats. As a welding instructor, I find that about 2-3 people in 18 can learn to weld without difficulty and 1 will often excel, 1-4 out of 18 will never quite get it and the rest can get by. I would never buy an aluminum boat welded by a first time amateur welder. I would want to know that the person was a fully competent aluminum welder for all the reasons you have outlined. The concept of tacking up the hull and hiring a good aluminum welder makes sense. This also helps realise the advantage of the increased weld speed in reduced labour cost. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Courtney, > > I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos from the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > for help learning. I found the following: > > The most common welding problems are caused by: > > 1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. > 2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete penetration.. > > Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it contradictory. Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, as the > material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen were done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > certification other that what they learned from other welders and from trial and error. > > The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, practice. The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, cut 6" of welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see when they break, one in one direction, the other in the other > direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 samples, cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend away from the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > incomplete penetration. > > Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the weld area immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other than alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle to weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > > The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire speed guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If the edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably doing a cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, you probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), but this can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice piece to the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to starting any new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > weld reliably. > > However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the voltage and wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire speed while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can produce even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first learning don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then move on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > you have lots of practice. > > If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for welding alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more with regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The faster you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a part along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > turn down the heat. > > For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get a cold weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, without cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > welding using he milling blade. > > I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are soldering, the melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what you see in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into this "puddle". As the puddle fills to the brim of the parent material, you > move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side of the wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers that it has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. > > Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in the end you need to find what works for you. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > . > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > Greg, > > > > Thank you for sharing your experience. > > > > Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL welding" ? > > > > What are the barriers for amateurs ? > > > > I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able to do this. > > > > Appreciatively, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what is possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > construction > > > in steel are well understood and documented. What has been lacking in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > use > > > this method to build alloy boats. > > > > > > So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques and made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > construction. > > > > > > Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > as > > > steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather than their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > alloy. > > > > > > For steel welders the significant difference are: > > > > > > 1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be joined must be clean. > > > 2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding steel. > > > 3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a great steel weld. > > > > > > We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood than they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > find > > > that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in steel. > > > > > > We found: > > > > > > 1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > shelter, > > > and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > > > > 2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day (usually a few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > takes > > > practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > > > > > > 3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are much the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > more > > > during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred to a few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > small > > > "button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > hull/deck > > > to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest results. Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting in strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > correct > > > for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > > > > > > 4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work alloy. Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the alloy ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > 100 > > > feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. Allowing the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > Plasma > > > cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > > > > > > 5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > These > > > cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced 2-3 times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > milling > > > blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding disk. Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > > > > History shows that the difference between impossible and possible is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > with > > > sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running in a remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material that they choose. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > s/v Mutiny > > Rhodes Bounty II > > lying Oriental, NC > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4025|3996|2004-06-04 18:39:57|richytill|Re: Bare hull shell complete!|Alex/Brent, looking good, quick too. rt -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > I've now got a hull shell, as you can see from the new group cover > photo, on the 7th day of work. Total time spent: 30 hours. I knew it > could be done, I just didn't believe it until it happened right > before me! > > Much of the work was done by Brent in sweltering heat while I fiddled > around with video equipment, stopping every now and then to pass him > more rods, a tool, the cutting torch, or to block up the hull as it > developed more rocker. It was incredible how it really turned from a > two dimensional piece of plate into a nice full, 3-D hull with a what > seemed like very few cranks of the handle on the chain come- along. > > It has been an interesting time attempting to be both film-maker and > boatbuilder, but I think we have some excellent footage that provides > technical tricks that only an experienced boatbuilder like Brent > would know (this is about his 33rd boat). Sometimes he worked so fast > that I missed subtle things, but many of the things I missed are > covered Brent's book meaning that the film and the book should work > well together. When another hull starts (Brent may be available for > a September start if someone is interested) I'll film that too and > fill in the gaps. > > Tomorrow we'll be pre-fabricating the decks, and should get them into > place as well. Not much time to get over to the internet cafe to > upload photos, but I will update the cover photo when we have the > decks on completely. > > Alex | 4026|3995|2004-06-04 18:40:12|richytill|Re: Mig Welding|Flux-core can be good outdoors if you have the right equipment. rt --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Sean Flynn wrote: > > that is why for exterior work you use flux cored wire > > which is exactly the same as stick welding exept it's > > a LOT easier to produce a good quality weld than stick > > welding (which is closer to an art form) > > As Shane has said, flux cored wire is what you should be using while MIG > welding outside. It will become impractical in the same wind conditions > that a stick welder will be as both flux cored Mig (FCAW) and Stick (SMAW) > are both using the gas created by the flux to shield the weld. > I've heard the argument that you can't MIG weld with gas (GMAW) outside > repeatedly but it is a rule that can be broken - if you are careful and > are aware of the limitations. I've done several large projects outside in > my car port (roof and two walls created by the presence of the house) > without much troubles from the wind. It is more rare but if the weather is > right, I can work in the driveway also. > If there is alot of wind, I have to put the gas away and go to flux-core > or tackle a different aspect of the project (cutting, shaping, grinding, > painting, etc) but most conditions I can get by with minimal shelter. > Maybe I have great luck with the weather or maybe my yard is well > protected. Thinking recently, over the past 2 months in Vancouver, I have > been working outside every weekend on a few different projects, MIG > welding with gas and welding from sun-up to sun-down on Saturday and > Sunday. In that time I think I have had to grind out maybe 5 or 6 welds > that were porous. You can usually feel the gust of wind hit you and hear > the bubbles come to the surface in the weld and see them out of the corner > of your eye so you can stop welding right away to fix your problem before > you drag the gas bubbles along with your weld. A minute or two with the > grinder and the bead is gone and I pick up where I left off. > I think that the time I saved by using MIG over stick allowed me to fix > those welds at a very leisurely rate while enjoying a beer and still be > ahead of the game. Of course, if I had just gone to the store and gotten > come flux-core wire, I might have been even farther ahead of the game but > I'm lazy and the store is a long ways away and I might have gotten stuck > in traffic so who knows. :) That and I hate chipping slag - one of the > main reasons that had me wanting to be able to weld some method other > than stick. > > Sean | 4027|4013|2004-06-04 19:24:00|Robert Gainer|Re: resources|If you finance a boat and as I have live on board you find its much cheaper then paying rent trying to save to buy and then never getting the boat. The total cost is higher but in the end you have the boat and she is yours. All the best; Bob >From: "Phil S." >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: resources >Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:03:07 -0000 > >Greg: >I disagree, IMHO. > >Don't borrow money, ever! > >I got a house loan to build my house with, it was the biggest mistake of my >life. If I had >just paid for the materials as I went, it would have only taken me maybe >another year to >move in and I wouldn't have had to pay for lawyers, appraisers, and the >other associated >vultures taking money for very little effort. As it was the house cost me >an additional >$24,000 just in bank fees and interest, not mention the stress of having >them inspecting >my every move. > >You are much farther ahead and with less stress if you don't owe money. >What you do >have is yours. >Phil > _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/| 4028|3890|2004-06-04 20:15:21|Courtney Thomas|Re: Flame Spray|Gary, Can I then assume that it's axiomatic that you should always attempt to "match" the base with filler as closely as possible, nay, use the same metal when possible, e.g. the engine block "slices", for optimal welds regardless..... ferrous, aluminum, etc.... ? Appreciatively, Courtney Gary H. Lucas wrote: > Greg, > Your post sounds very good to me. If you tack on my previous post about > what to look for while welding, no ball on the end of the wire, little > smoke, no sparks, and a spraying sound, you've got almost everything you > need to know to make sound welds, except the practice! > > One other little tidbit. Using the right filler wire is EXTREMELY > important. Years ago someone asked me to weld a Volkswagen engine block, > the generator mount was broken completely off. I welded it up and it looked > beautiful. We were standing there waiting for it to cool completely when we > heard a tiny 'pop' sound. The entire weld fell cleanly out of my carefully > V grooved joint! He got me a piece from another broken engine block. I > sliced it into filler rods on the vertical bandsaw. I then welded it again > and we had no problems. I've done this several time since. > > Aluminum filler wires though are usually not the same alloy as the base > metal. When you weld you are creating a new alloy at the interface between > the parent metal and the weld bead. The filler wire is designed to create a > strong new alloy with constituents from both the filler wire and the base > metal. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:22 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > >>Hi Courtney, >> >>I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos from >> > the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > >>for help learning. I found the following: >> >>The most common welding problems are caused by: >> >>1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. >>2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete >> > penetration.. > >>Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it contradictory. >> > Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, as the > >>material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen were >> > done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > >>certification other that what they learned from other welders and from >> > trial and error. > >>The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, practice. >> > The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > >>to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, cut 6" of >> > welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > >>weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see when they >> > break, one in one direction, the other in the other > >>direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 samples, >> > cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > >>side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend away from >> > the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > >>incomplete penetration. >> >>Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the weld area >> > immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > >>acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other than >> > alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > >>to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle to >> > weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > >>The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire speed >> > guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > >>minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If the >> > edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > >>bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably doing a >> > cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > >>where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, you >> > probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > >>even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), but this >> > can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > >>final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by >> > contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > >>water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice piece to >> > the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > >>machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to starting any >> > new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > >>weld reliably. >> >>However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the voltage and >> > wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > >>is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire speed >> > while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > >>high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can produce >> > even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > >>pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first learning >> > don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > >>an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then move >> > on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > >>you have lots of practice. >> >>If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for welding >> > alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > >>thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more with >> > regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > >>impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The faster >> > you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > >>You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a part >> > along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > >>turn down the heat. >> >>For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get a cold >> > weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > >>your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, without >> > cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > >>welding using he milling blade. >> >>I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are soldering, the >> > melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > >>wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what you see >> > in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > >>flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into this "puddle". As >> > the puddle fills to the brim of the parent material, you > >>move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side of the >> > wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > >>backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers that it >> > has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > >>you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. >> >>Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in the end >> > you need to find what works for you. > >>Greg Elliott >>http://www.origamimagic.com >>. >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Courtney Thomas" >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM >>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray >> >> >> >>>Greg, >>> >>>Thank you for sharing your experience. >>> >>>Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL welding" ? >>> >>>What are the barriers for amateurs ? >>> >>>I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able to do >>> > this. > >>>Appreciatively, >>> >>>Courtney >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>ge@... wrote: >>> >>> >>>>We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what is >>>> > possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > >>construction >> >>>>in steel are well understood and documented. What has been lacking in >>>> > origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > >>use >> >>>>this method to build alloy boats. >>>> >>>>So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different >>>> > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > >>>>boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques and made >>>> > them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > >>>>origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those people >>>> > that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > >>>>construction. >>>> >>>>Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not >>>> > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > >>as >> >>>>steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather than >>>> > their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > >>>>alloy. >>>> >>>>For steel welders the significant difference are: >>>> >>>>1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be joined must >>>> > be clean. > >>>>2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding steel. >>>>3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a great >>>> > steel weld. > >>>>We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood than >>>> > they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > >>find >> >>>>that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in steel. >>>> >>>>We found: >>>> >>>>1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, even >>>> > in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > >>shelter, >> >>>>and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic tarps >>>> > can be used to build low cost shelters. > >>>>2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day (usually a few >>>> > minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > >>takes >> >>>>practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. >>>> >>>>3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are much >>>> > the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > >>more >> >>>>during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred to a >>>> > few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > >>small >> >>>>"button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. >>>> > Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > >>hull/deck >> >>>>to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest results. >>>> > Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > >>>>correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting in >>>> > strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > >>correct >> >>>>for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. >>>> >>>>4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work alloy. >>>> > Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > >>>>blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the alloy >>>> > ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > >>100 >> >>>>feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. Allowing the >>>> > blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > >>Plasma >> >>>>cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. >>>> >>>>5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the fastest >>>> > way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > >>These >> >>>>cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced 2-3 >>>> > times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > >>milling >> >>>>blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding disk. >>>> > Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > >>>>History shows that the difference between impossible and possible is >>>> > knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > >>with >> >>>>sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running in a >>>> > remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > >>>>ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material that >>>> > they choose. > >>>>Greg Elliott >>>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>s/v Mutiny >>>Rhodes Bounty II >>>lying Oriental, NC >>>WDB5619 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4029|3890|2004-06-04 20:21:36|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Flame Spray|No, Use the filler recommended by the wire manufacturer for the alloy to be welded. For instance when welding 6061 the correct wire is 4043. Some alloys, in particular some in the 5000 series do in fact use the same alloy wire as the base metal. You can't just make a generalization though. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > Gary, > > Can I then assume that it's axiomatic that you should always attempt to > "match" the base with filler as closely as possible, nay, use the same > metal when possible, e.g. the engine block "slices", for optimal welds > regardless..... ferrous, aluminum, etc.... ? > > Appreciatively, > Courtney > > > > Gary H. Lucas wrote: > > > Greg, > > Your post sounds very good to me. If you tack on my previous post about > > what to look for while welding, no ball on the end of the wire, little > > smoke, no sparks, and a spraying sound, you've got almost everything you > > need to know to make sound welds, except the practice! > > > > One other little tidbit. Using the right filler wire is EXTREMELY > > important. Years ago someone asked me to weld a Volkswagen engine block, > > the generator mount was broken completely off. I welded it up and it looked > > beautiful. We were standing there waiting for it to cool completely when we > > heard a tiny 'pop' sound. The entire weld fell cleanly out of my carefully > > V grooved joint! He got me a piece from another broken engine block. I > > sliced it into filler rods on the vertical bandsaw. I then welded it again > > and we had no problems. I've done this several time since. > > > > Aluminum filler wires though are usually not the same alloy as the base > > metal. When you weld you are creating a new alloy at the interface between > > the parent metal and the weld bead. The filler wire is designed to create a > > strong new alloy with constituents from both the filler wire and the base > > metal. > > > > Gary H. Lucas > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:22 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > > > > >>Hi Courtney, > >> > >>I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos from > >> > > the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > > > >>for help learning. I found the following: > >> > >>The most common welding problems are caused by: > >> > >>1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. > >>2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete > >> > > penetration.. > > > >>Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it contradictory. > >> > > Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, as the > > > >>material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen were > >> > > done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > > > >>certification other that what they learned from other welders and from > >> > > trial and error. > > > >>The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, practice. > >> > > The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > > > >>to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, cut 6" of > >> > > welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > > > >>weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see when they > >> > > break, one in one direction, the other in the other > > > >>direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 samples, > >> > > cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > > > >>side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend away from > >> > > the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > > > >>incomplete penetration. > >> > >>Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the weld area > >> > > immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > > > >>acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other than > >> > > alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > > > >>to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle to > >> > > weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > > > >>The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire speed > >> > > guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > > > >>minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If the > >> > > edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > > > >>bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably doing a > >> > > cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > > > >>where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, you > >> > > probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > > > >>even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), but this > >> > > can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > > > >>final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by > >> > > contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > > > >>water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice piece to > >> > > the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > > > >>machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to starting any > >> > > new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > > > >>weld reliably. > >> > >>However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the voltage and > >> > > wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > > > >>is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire speed > >> > > while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > > > >>high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can produce > >> > > even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > > > >>pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first learning > >> > > don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > > > >>an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then move > >> > > on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > > > >>you have lots of practice. > >> > >>If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for welding > >> > > alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > > > >>thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more with > >> > > regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > > > >>impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The faster > >> > > you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > > > >>You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a part > >> > > along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > > > >>turn down the heat. > >> > >>For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get a cold > >> > > weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > > > >>your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, without > >> > > cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > > > >>welding using he milling blade. > >> > >>I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are soldering, the > >> > > melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > > > >>wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what you see > >> > > in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > > > >>flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into this "puddle". As > >> > > the puddle fills to the brim of the parent material, you > > > >>move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side of the > >> > > wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > > > >>backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers that it > >> > > has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > > > >>you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. > >> > >>Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in the end > >> > > you need to find what works for you. > > > >>Greg Elliott > >>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>. > >> > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Courtney Thomas" > >>To: > >>Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM > >>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > >> > >> > >> > >>>Greg, > >>> > >>>Thank you for sharing your experience. > >>> > >>>Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL welding" ? > >>> > >>>What are the barriers for amateurs ? > >>> > >>>I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able to do > >>> > > this. > > > >>>Appreciatively, > >>> > >>>Courtney > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>ge@... wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what is > >>>> > > possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > > > >>construction > >> > >>>>in steel are well understood and documented. What has been lacking in > >>>> > > origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > > > >>use > >> > >>>>this method to build alloy boats. > >>>> > >>>>So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different > >>>> > > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > >>>>boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques and made > >>>> > > them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > >>>>origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those people > >>>> > > that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > >>>>construction. > >>>> > >>>>Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not > >>>> > > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > > > >>as > >> > >>>>steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather than > >>>> > > their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > >>>>alloy. > >>>> > >>>>For steel welders the significant difference are: > >>>> > >>>>1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be joined must > >>>> > > be clean. > > > >>>>2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding steel. > >>>>3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a great > >>>> > > steel weld. > > > >>>>We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood than > >>>> > > they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > > > >>find > >> > >>>>that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in steel. > >>>> > >>>>We found: > >>>> > >>>>1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, even > >>>> > > in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > > > >>shelter, > >> > >>>>and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic tarps > >>>> > > can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > >>>>2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day (usually a few > >>>> > > minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > > > >>takes > >> > >>>>practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > >>>> > >>>>3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are much > >>>> > > the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > > > >>more > >> > >>>>during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred to a > >>>> > > few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > > > >>small > >> > >>>>"button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. > >>>> > > Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > > > >>hull/deck > >> > >>>>to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest results. > >>>> > > Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > >>>>correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting in > >>>> > > strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > > > >>correct > >> > >>>>for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > >>>> > >>>>4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work alloy. > >>>> > > Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > >>>>blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the alloy > >>>> > > ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > > > >>100 > >> > >>>>feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. Allowing the > >>>> > > blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > > > >>Plasma > >> > >>>>cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > >>>> > >>>>5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the fastest > >>>> > > way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > > > >>These > >> > >>>>cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced 2-3 > >>>> > > times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > > > >>milling > >> > >>>>blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding disk. > >>>> > > Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > >>>>History shows that the difference between impossible and possible is > >>>> > > knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > > > >>with > >> > >>>>sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running in a > >>>> > > remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > >>>>ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material that > >>>> > > they choose. > > > >>>>Greg Elliott > >>>>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>-- > >>>s/v Mutiny > >>>Rhodes Bounty II > >>>lying Oriental, NC > >>>WDB5619 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4030|3890|2004-06-04 20:29:41|Courtney Thomas|Re: Flame Spray|Richy, Sounds good, but how can the new owner to be, independently determine that a needed hire is a "good aluminum welder", for sure; since I'm hearing so much about said welds looking good but not in fact being so ? In fact, it would seem critical that this be determinate at any/all stages of the weld process, rather than at project completion. And further, if this is independently verifiable by the owner to be, then it would seem that he can simply monitor his own work and dispense with a presumptive "good aluminum welder", though suffering some efficiency, possibly; else, the risk is borne that the builder is paying for "professional" welding but may not be receiving it. I hope I'm not appearing argumentative here, for my motive is to conceptually assemble all the motives and criteria to unambiguously succeed in such an undertaking, with minimal cost, time, and energy while at the same time, meeting aforementioned criteria, one of the most important of which is sound welds. Gratefully, Courtney richytill wrote: > Greg, good overview on aluminium welding. And yes, alloy boats are > good boats--really good boats. As a welding instructor, I find that > about 2-3 people in 18 can learn to weld without difficulty and 1 > will often excel, 1-4 out of 18 will never quite get it and the rest > can get by. I would never buy an aluminum boat welded by a first > time amateur welder. I would want to know that the person was a > fully competent aluminum welder for all the reasons you have > outlined. The concept of tacking up the hull and hiring a good > aluminum welder makes sense. This also helps realise the advantage > of the increased weld speed in reduced labour cost. rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >>Hi Courtney, >> >>I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos >> > from the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > >>for help learning. I found the following: >> >>The most common welding problems are caused by: >> >>1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. >>2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete >> > penetration.. > >>Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it >> > contradictory. Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, > as the > >>material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen >> > were done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > >>certification other that what they learned from other welders and >> > from trial and error. > >>The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, >> > practice. The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > >>to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, >> > cut 6" of welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > >>weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see >> > when they break, one in one direction, the other in the other > >>direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 >> > samples, cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > >>side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend >> > away from the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > >>incomplete penetration. >> >>Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the >> > weld area immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > >>acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other >> > than alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > >>to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle >> > to weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > >>The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire >> > speed guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > >>minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If >> > the edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > >>bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably >> > doing a cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > >>where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, >> > you probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > >>even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), >> > but this can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > >>final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by >> > contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > >>water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice >> > piece to the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > >>machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to >> > starting any new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > >>weld reliably. >> >>However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the >> > voltage and wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > >>is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire >> > speed while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > >>high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can >> > produce even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > >>pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first >> > learning don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > >>an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then >> > move on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > >>you have lots of practice. >> >>If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for >> > welding alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > >>thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more >> > with regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > >>impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The >> > faster you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > >>You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a >> > part along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > >>turn down the heat. >> >>For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get >> > a cold weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > >>your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, >> > without cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > >>welding using he milling blade. >> >>I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are >> > soldering, the melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > >>wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what >> > you see in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > >>flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into >> > this "puddle". As the puddle fills to the brim of the parent > material, you > >>move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side >> > of the wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > >>backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers >> > that it has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > >>you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. >> >>Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in >> > the end you need to find what works for you. > >>Greg Elliott >>http://www.origamimagic.com >>. >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Courtney Thomas" >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM >>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray >> >> >> >>>Greg, >>> >>>Thank you for sharing your experience. >>> >>>Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL >>> > welding" ? > >>>What are the barriers for amateurs ? >>> >>>I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able >>> > to do this. > >>>Appreciatively, >>> >>>Courtney >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>ge@e... wrote: >>> >>> >>>>We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what >>>> > is possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > >>construction >> >>>>in steel are well understood and documented. What has been >>>> > lacking in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > >>use >> >>>>this method to build alloy boats. >>>> >>>>So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different >>>> > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > >>>>boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques >>>> > and made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > >>>>origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those >>>> > people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > >>>>construction. >>>> >>>>Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not >>>> > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > >>as >> >>>>steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather >>>> > than their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > >>>>alloy. >>>> >>>>For steel welders the significant difference are: >>>> >>>>1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be >>>> > joined must be clean. > >>>>2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding >>>> > steel. > >>>>3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a >>>> > great steel weld. > >>>>We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood >>>> > than they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > >>find >> >>>>that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in >>>> > steel. > >>>>We found: >>>> >>>>1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without >>>> > shelter, even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > >>shelter, >> >>>>and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic >>>> > tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > >>>>2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day >>>> > (usually a few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > >>takes >> >>>>practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. >>>> >>>>3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are >>>> > much the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > >>more >> >>>>during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred >>>> > to a few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > >>small >> >>>>"button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger >>>> > tacks. Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > >>hull/deck >> >>>>to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest >>>> > results. Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > >>>>correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting >>>> > in strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > >>correct >> >>>>for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. >>>> >>>>4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work >>>> > alloy. Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > >>>>blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the >>>> > alloy ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > >>100 >> >>>>feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. >>>> > Allowing the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > >>Plasma >> >>>>cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. >>>> >>>>5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the >>>> > fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > >>These >> >>>>cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced >>>> > 2-3 times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > >>milling >> >>>>blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding >>>> > disk. Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > >>>>History shows that the difference between impossible and >>>> > possible is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > >>with >> >>>>sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running >>>> > in a remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > >>>>ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material >>>> > that they choose. > >>>>Greg Elliott >>>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-- >>>s/v Mutiny >>>Rhodes Bounty II >>>lying Oriental, NC >>>WDB5619 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4031|3890|2004-06-04 20:32:42|Michael Casling|Re: Flame Spray|When they got to a critical part of the welding job on the Revelstoke Dam they tested about 2000 welders and picked about 12 and they paid the 12 very well. They had an inspector check all the welds. Is was for critical bits for the turbine I believe. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: richytill To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 3:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray Greg, good overview on aluminium welding. And yes, alloy boats are good boats--really good boats. As a welding instructor, I find that about 2-3 people in 18 can learn to weld without difficulty and 1 will often excel, 1-4 out of 18 will never quite get it and the rest can get by. I would never buy an aluminum boat welded by a first time amateur welder. I would want to know that the person was a fully competent aluminum welder for all the reasons you have outlined. The concept of tacking up the hull and hiring a good aluminum welder makes sense. This also helps realise the advantage of the increased weld speed in reduced labour cost. rt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4032|3890|2004-06-04 20:40:44|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Flame Spray|Test him. Have him make some test welds, slice them up and bend them. Fortunately this is very easy to do with aluminum. The skillsaw will do the job just fine. Just remember you are also testing the filler metal/base metal combo too, a very good idea. Some years ago they had to modify the specifications for welder proficiency testing on steel when they discovered that the choice of rod and base metal made a bigger difference than the skill of the welder. If your prospective welder throws a hissy fit over testing, throw him out. A REALLY good welder will be proud to show you what he is capable of. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > Richy, > > Sounds good, but how can the new owner to be, independently determine > that a needed hire is a "good aluminum welder", for sure; since I'm > hearing so much about said welds looking good but not in fact being so ? > > In fact, it would seem critical that this be determinate at any/all > stages of the weld process, rather than at project completion. > > And further, if this is independently verifiable by the owner to be, > then it would seem that he can simply monitor his own work and dispense > with a presumptive "good aluminum welder", though suffering some > efficiency, possibly; else, the risk is borne that the builder is paying > for "professional" welding but may not be receiving it. > > I hope I'm not appearing argumentative here, for my motive is to > conceptually assemble all the motives and criteria to unambiguously > succeed in such an undertaking, with minimal cost, time, and energy > while at the same time, meeting aforementioned criteria, one of the most > important of which is sound welds. > > Gratefully, > Courtney > > > > richytill wrote: > > > Greg, good overview on aluminium welding. And yes, alloy boats are > > good boats--really good boats. As a welding instructor, I find that > > about 2-3 people in 18 can learn to weld without difficulty and 1 > > will often excel, 1-4 out of 18 will never quite get it and the rest > > can get by. I would never buy an aluminum boat welded by a first > > time amateur welder. I would want to know that the person was a > > fully competent aluminum welder for all the reasons you have > > outlined. The concept of tacking up the hull and hiring a good > > aluminum welder makes sense. This also helps realise the advantage > > of the increased weld speed in reduced labour cost. rt > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >>Hi Courtney, > >> > >>I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos > >> > > from the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > > > >>for help learning. I found the following: > >> > >>The most common welding problems are caused by: > >> > >>1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. > >>2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete > >> > > penetration.. > > > >>Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it > >> > > contradictory. Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, > > as the > > > >>material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen > >> > > were done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > > > >>certification other that what they learned from other welders and > >> > > from trial and error. > > > >>The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, > >> > > practice. The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > > > >>to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, > >> > > cut 6" of welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > > > >>weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see > >> > > when they break, one in one direction, the other in the other > > > >>direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 > >> > > samples, cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > > > >>side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend > >> > > away from the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > > > >>incomplete penetration. > >> > >>Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the > >> > > weld area immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > > > >>acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other > >> > > than alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > > > >>to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle > >> > > to weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > > > >>The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire > >> > > speed guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > > > >>minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If > >> > > the edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > > > >>bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably > >> > > doing a cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > > > >>where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, > >> > > you probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > > > >>even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), > >> > > but this can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > > > >>final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by > >> > > contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > > > >>water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice > >> > > piece to the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > > > >>machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to > >> > > starting any new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > > > >>weld reliably. > >> > >>However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the > >> > > voltage and wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > > > >>is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire > >> > > speed while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > > > >>high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can > >> > > produce even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > > > >>pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first > >> > > learning don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > > > >>an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then > >> > > move on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > > > >>you have lots of practice. > >> > >>If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for > >> > > welding alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > > > >>thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more > >> > > with regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > > > >>impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The > >> > > faster you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > > > >>You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a > >> > > part along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > > > >>turn down the heat. > >> > >>For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get > >> > > a cold weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > > > >>your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, > >> > > without cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > > > >>welding using he milling blade. > >> > >>I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are > >> > > soldering, the melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > > > >>wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what > >> > > you see in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > > > >>flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into > >> > > this "puddle". As the puddle fills to the brim of the parent > > material, you > > > >>move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side > >> > > of the wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > > > >>backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers > >> > > that it has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > > > >>you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. > >> > >>Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in > >> > > the end you need to find what works for you. > > > >>Greg Elliott > >>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>. > >> > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Courtney Thomas" > >>To: > >>Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM > >>Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > >> > >> > >> > >>>Greg, > >>> > >>>Thank you for sharing your experience. > >>> > >>>Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL > >>> > > welding" ? > > > >>>What are the barriers for amateurs ? > >>> > >>>I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able > >>> > > to do this. > > > >>>Appreciatively, > >>> > >>>Courtney > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>ge@e... wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what > >>>> > > is possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > > > >>construction > >> > >>>>in steel are well understood and documented. What has been > >>>> > > lacking in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > > > >>use > >> > >>>>this method to build alloy boats. > >>>> > >>>>So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different > >>>> > > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > >>>>boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques > >>>> > > and made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > >>>>origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those > >>>> > > people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > >>>>construction. > >>>> > >>>>Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not > >>>> > > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > > > >>as > >> > >>>>steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather > >>>> > > than their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > >>>>alloy. > >>>> > >>>>For steel welders the significant difference are: > >>>> > >>>>1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be > >>>> > > joined must be clean. > > > >>>>2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding > >>>> > > steel. > > > >>>>3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a > >>>> > > great steel weld. > > > >>>>We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood > >>>> > > than they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > > > >>find > >> > >>>>that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in > >>>> > > steel. > > > >>>>We found: > >>>> > >>>>1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without > >>>> > > shelter, even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > > > >>shelter, > >> > >>>>and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic > >>>> > > tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > >>>>2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day > >>>> > > (usually a few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > > > >>takes > >> > >>>>practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > >>>> > >>>>3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are > >>>> > > much the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > > > >>more > >> > >>>>during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred > >>>> > > to a few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > > > >>small > >> > >>>>"button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger > >>>> > > tacks. Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > > > >>hull/deck > >> > >>>>to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest > >>>> > > results. Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > >>>>correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting > >>>> > > in strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > > > >>correct > >> > >>>>for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > >>>> > >>>>4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work > >>>> > > alloy. Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > >>>>blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the > >>>> > > alloy ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > > > >>100 > >> > >>>>feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. > >>>> > > Allowing the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > > > >>Plasma > >> > >>>>cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > >>>> > >>>>5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the > >>>> > > fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > > > >>These > >> > >>>>cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced > >>>> > > 2-3 times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > > > >>milling > >> > >>>>blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding > >>>> > > disk. Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > >>>>History shows that the difference between impossible and > >>>> > > possible is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > > > >>with > >> > >>>>sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running > >>>> > > in a remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > >>>>ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material > >>>> > > that they choose. > > > >>>>Greg Elliott > >>>>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >>>> > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>-- > >>>s/v Mutiny > >>>Rhodes Bounty II > >>>lying Oriental, NC > >>>WDB5619 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >>> > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4033|3996|2004-06-05 00:16:29|silascrosby|Re: Bare hull shell complete!|Alex, Excellent. Very fair. 30 hrs including not only the film work but also dealing with 'experts' dropping by to contribute their wisdom. It was good sailing out in the strait today. Steve.| 4034|3977|2004-06-05 08:15:14|woodcraftssuch|Re: Steel Catamaran|I like Phil's idea of splitting the tanks thereby getting 1 boat out of 1 tank.With steel prices being high maybe the cost of the tank (free?)would offset the possible problems.Speaking of which,after putting in my $.02 worth in the shantyboat site I looked around and found this about welding propane tanks.The directions are sort of involved but it's worth it....Go to Google.Above the search bar hit "Groups".Enter "welding" and then search.Under "related groups" click"sci.engr.joining.welding".Click on "search only in sci.engr.etc.",enter "propane tanks" and then search.The best advice I found there on the safest way to cut open or weld a propane tank was to let your brother-in-law do it.| 4035|4004|2004-06-05 08:21:22|Phil S.|Re: Hull Progress|Hi Gary; I realize that, after watching MV Diesel Duck's progress, nearly 4 years to complete the interior and mechanicals. They started from a prebuilt hull. Which is why I am planning once the shop is up and finished to start building the "Small stuff" then when much of it is ready I will get going on the hull. But in keeping with the Bebe tradition I will be building a simple boat without a ton of prone to break systems. Phil -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Phil, > Remember one thing, building a boat is JUST like building a house. Either > one is a watertight box in a matter of days. It is all the little details > you add AFTER it is a watertight box that takes all the time! > | 4036|4013|2004-06-05 08:27:20|Phil S.|Re: resources|I agree Bob, which is why I often kick myself for not buying a boat to live on instead of buying a farm. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > If you finance a boat and as I have live on board you find its much cheaper > then paying rent trying to save to buy and then never getting the boat. The > total cost is higher but in the end you have the boat and she is yours. > All the best; > Bob > | 4037|4013|2004-06-05 09:06:06|Phil S.|Re: resources|Maybe in another time, I watched as a friend had his house built, the contractor wanted a draw but wasn't completed with the agreed work. My friend refused to sign until the work was completed. The contractor went to the bank (Canandaigua National), my friend told the bank the work wasn't done and not to advance the money, the bank gave the contractor the money anyway. The contractor took the money, walked off the job and declared bankruptcy never paying any of the suppliers or subcontractors. The bank then sued my friend for the money that they had given the contractor (Against his will), after 6 years of legal battles a judge awarded the bank the money plus legal fees and interest(at nearly twice the rate of the loan) , costing my friend over $300,000. There by losing the home he completed with his own money paying as he went. This same friend owns a company, his accountant was stealing money. His accountant's mother was president of the branch the company did business at (M&T). The bank charged him $80k in fees and other associated costs to investigate what was the banks problem, accepting obviously forged checks. He has often said his money would have been safer dumped on the front lawn. When I was young I bought a car with a loan, shortly there after I was sent to Korea for 2 years, I filled out a slip at the payclerk to have my car payment sent to the Rochester branch of Marine Midland Bank. Someone at the main Army pay office changed the address to the Buffalo main branch, As requested by the bank. Sending my payments there. 7 months later I get a call (In Korea!!) from my father saying the car was repossessed. I couldn't come home to solve said problem and Marine Midland sold my car at auction for much less than owed. What happened to the money the Army was sending to the wrong branch? Instead of finding out where the money was supposed to be going the bank opened a savings account for me, and of course didn't find that money until after the car was sold, which was not enough to cover the difference in what I still owed them. So at 20 years old my credit was ruined because of one of these lovely tools. Banks are run by crooks people who can and will screw you at any point in time. Problem with doing things in a hurry if something goes wrong your screwed. The bank won't care if you fell off a ladder and can't work for 6 months. They will happily foreclose and ruin everything you have built. I will pay as I go, and when all is said and done, I will sell my house I built, Pay off the loan, invest the balance in insured funds, and enjoy the cruising lifestyle. Regards Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A bank is a tool, just like a hammer. Learn how it works, and you can do things in a hurry. Try and use it without knowing what > you are doing, and it will hurt you. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com | 4038|4013|2004-06-05 13:13:14|fmichael graham|Re: resources|Phil: Yes, but think about all of that land that you have free use of for any project your heart desires. I bought land last year and, though it is 800 km from the ocean (a small distance for Canadians), I can set up a shop and fabricate "until the cows come home". At this point, I only pay $ 91(CanD) for taxes and will not have to live in a "work-in-progress" situation. Having, previously, lived aboard a 30' "plastic" for 3 years, while re-designing the interior for off-shore suitability, I wouldn't want to repeat the process. My wife, still, refers to that time in our marriage as "the dark years". Yet, if I were younger and single, I'd do it. Mike "Phil S." wrote: I agree Bob, which is why I often kick myself for not buying a boat to live on instead of buying a farm. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > If you finance a boat and as I have live on board you find its much cheaper > then paying rent trying to save to buy and then never getting the boat. The > total cost is higher but in the end you have the boat and she is yours. > All the best; > Bob > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4039|4013|2004-06-05 13:29:48|Robert Gainer|Re: resources|Mike; Don�t you have a mortgage, if not that says to me that you had the resources to buy the farm. If you have the means to buy the farm and build the boat at the same time you have more wherewithal then most of the people that I know. Most can only do one or the other. Those with a mortgage cannot say that the land is free. All the best; Bob >From: fmichael graham >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: resources >Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:13:10 -0400 (EDT) > >Phil: >Yes, but think about all of that land that you have free use of for any >project your heart desires. I bought land last year and, though it is 800 >km from the ocean (a small distance for Canadians), I can set up a shop >and fabricate "until the cows come home". At this point, I only pay $ >91(CanD) for taxes and will not have to live in a "work-in-progress" >situation. Having, previously, lived aboard a 30' "plastic" for 3 years, >while re-designing the interior for off-shore suitability, I wouldn't want >to repeat the process. My wife, still, refers to that time in our marriage >as "the dark years". Yet, if I were younger and single, I'd do it. >Mike > > >"Phil S." wrote: >I agree Bob, which is why I often kick myself for not buying a boat to live >on instead of >buying a farm. >Phil > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > > If you finance a boat and as I have live on board you find its much >cheaper > > then paying rent trying to save to buy and then never getting the boat. >The > > total cost is higher but in the end you have the boat and she is yours. > > All the best; > > Bob > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963| 4040|4013|2004-06-05 13:30:55|fmichael graham|Re: resources|Phil: When I bought my property last year, I was blessed with the "neighbour above all neighbours". This guy is a master carpenter with excellent knowledge of what the district requirements are for property development, where to get the best local price on materials & equipment, and, above all, is a very nice & helpful person, as are his wife & kids. Sadly, he took out a mortgage to complete the building of his house and has had to sell the house and land to pay the debt off, as work in that area was lacking. I have learned that not owing anybody anything is the best way to go. It can take longer to get what you want but you pay out less in the long run and no one can take it from you or tell you what to do with it. Ah, peace of mind! Mike "Phil S." wrote: Maybe in another time, I watched as a friend had his house built, the contractor wanted a draw but wasn't completed with the agreed work. My friend refused to sign until the work was completed. The contractor went to the bank (Canandaigua National), my friend told the bank the work wasn't done and not to advance the money, the bank gave the contractor the money anyway. The contractor took the money, walked off the job and declared bankruptcy never paying any of the suppliers or subcontractors. The bank then sued my friend for the money that they had given the contractor (Against his will), after 6 years of legal battles a judge awarded the bank the money plus legal fees and interest(at nearly twice the rate of the loan) , costing my friend over $300,000. There by losing the home he completed with his own money paying as he went. This same friend owns a company, his accountant was stealing money. His accountant's mother was president of the branch the company did business at (M&T). The bank charged him $80k in fees and other associated costs to investigate what was the banks problem, accepting obviously forged checks. He has often said his money would have been safer dumped on the front lawn. When I was young I bought a car with a loan, shortly there after I was sent to Korea for 2 years, I filled out a slip at the payclerk to have my car payment sent to the Rochester branch of Marine Midland Bank. Someone at the main Army pay office changed the address to the Buffalo main branch, As requested by the bank. Sending my payments there. 7 months later I get a call (In Korea!!) from my father saying the car was repossessed. I couldn't come home to solve said problem and Marine Midland sold my car at auction for much less than owed. What happened to the money the Army was sending to the wrong branch? Instead of finding out where the money was supposed to be going the bank opened a savings account for me, and of course didn't find that money until after the car was sold, which was not enough to cover the difference in what I still owed them. So at 20 years old my credit was ruined because of one of these lovely tools. Banks are run by crooks people who can and will screw you at any point in time. Problem with doing things in a hurry if something goes wrong your screwed. The bank won't care if you fell off a ladder and can't work for 6 months. They will happily foreclose and ruin everything you have built. I will pay as I go, and when all is said and done, I will sell my house I built, Pay off the loan, invest the balance in insured funds, and enjoy the cruising lifestyle. Regards Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A bank is a tool, just like a hammer. Learn how it works, and you can do things in a hurry. Try and use it without knowing what > you are doing, and it will hurt you. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4041|4013|2004-06-05 13:38:51|kendall|Re: resources|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Greg: > I disagree, IMHO. > > Don't borrow money, ever! > > I got a house loan to build my house with, it was the biggest mistake of my life. If I had > just paid for the materials as I went, it would have only taken me maybe another year to > move in and I wouldn't have had to pay for lawyers, appraisers, and the other associated > vultures taking money for very little effort. As it was the house cost me an additional > $24,000 just in bank fees and interest, not mention the stress of having them inspecting > my every move. > > You are much farther ahead and with less stress if you don't owe money. What you do > have is yours. > Phil My thoughts exactly, if I pay as I go, it may take a bit longer, but I can build what I want the way I want it to be built, if I want to set up an alternative untill I can get the right item, I don't want a bank telling me no, if I want to use it while finishing the interior, I can, often with banks, you can't splash the boat, move into the house, or park your car in the garage untill it matches the print. I don't like loans, or credit cards, primarily because of the interest, but also because banks feel it entitles them to become a part of the decision making process. Last loan I worked on was for a double wide, and the bank decided that where I wanted the house didn't have enough 'curb' appeal, and would look better, and have a higher resale value if it were relocated, the location they wanted would have given me a nice view of the neighbors, and required removing roughly 50 trees, where I wanted it, it needed maybe 12 trees removed, and gave me a nice view of the pond and the woods behind it, I flat out told them I don't sit in my neighbors house,so don't realy care what they look at, and I wanted to look at what I wanted to look at when I was sitting in the living room or on the porch, not pay more to give my neighbor a better view, went instead with a repo, and did all the set up myself with the help of some friends and I was much happier with it, not to mention it was at least $20k cheaper all around not including the interest and charges the loan had. ken| 4042|4042|2004-06-05 13:46:26|Sigge Johansson|Remove me...|...from the mail list, pls. Will be out on the blue for a while. Regards Sigge Johansson| 4043|4013|2004-06-05 13:47:22|fmichael graham|Re: resources|Bob: Actually, I bought the property - 22 acres - for $19,000(Can) + tax, & paid cash for it. If building a boat was my only objective in life, then I guess that there would be little value in the land. But, my great-grandfather used to say that real estate is the best investment because they're not building more land. Still, if someone is so driven by the desire to be out on the water that they wish to concentrate solely on building their boat, I say more power to them, live aboard, and, if one such character lives in the Vancouver area, I'm willing to come down with a case of beer, lend a free hand, and live the dream vicariously, until I am "ready to roll" myself. Take the example of Alex; after he and his family have finished kicking around this great blue marble, they can come home & build a place on land that is worth more with each passing day. Mike Robert Gainer wrote: Mike; Don�t you have a mortgage, if not that says to me that you had the resources to buy the farm. If you have the means to buy the farm and build the boat at the same time you have more wherewithal then most of the people that I know. Most can only do one or the other. Those with a mortgage cannot say that the land is free. All the best; Bob >From: fmichael graham >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: resources >Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:13:10 -0400 (EDT) > >Phil: >Yes, but think about all of that land that you have free use of for any >project your heart desires. I bought land last year and, though it is 800 >km from the ocean (a small distance for Canadians), I can set up a shop >and fabricate "until the cows come home". At this point, I only pay $ >91(CanD) for taxes and will not have to live in a "work-in-progress" >situation. Having, previously, lived aboard a 30' "plastic" for 3 years, >while re-designing the interior for off-shore suitability, I wouldn't want >to repeat the process. My wife, still, refers to that time in our marriage >as "the dark years". Yet, if I were younger and single, I'd do it. >Mike > > >"Phil S." wrote: >I agree Bob, which is why I often kick myself for not buying a boat to live >on instead of >buying a farm. >Phil > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > > If you finance a boat and as I have live on board you find its much >cheaper > > then paying rent trying to save to buy and then never getting the boat. >The > > total cost is higher but in the end you have the boat and she is yours. > > All the best; > > Bob > > > > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- >Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4044|4044|2004-06-05 14:13:35|intiaboats|Go, Alex, Go!|Alex: I couldn't be more pleased - or envious - about your present set of circumstances. I am looking forward to the video and hope that you and Brent can come to a mutually satisfactory agreement on supplying a copy of the video when plans are ordered. If it would not be too much trouble, perhaps, you would allow a "looky-lou" or two on the work-site. If this is acceptable to you, please publish directions to the site. I would love to skip over to the island on a weekend & have a look, up close. Hell, I could even bring my welding gear with me... Regards, Mike| 4045|3948|2004-06-05 14:23:44|brentswain38|Re: Stress Concentration|Gerd Start from the ends of the chines and work toward the centre and the transverse welds. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Thanks for the tip, Brent ;-) what I am wondering right now is > should I first try to join the darts, and then the vertical cut, or > try to bring the verticals together as far as possible and then > adjust the darts? Any difference due to the fact that there are 2 > darts on my design? > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Gerd > > Scoreing the plate halfway thru 15 cm or so beyond the end of > the > > cut with a grinder and tapping this area with the hammer, being > > careful not to leave hammer marks there ,will make the transition > > from chine to round more gradual. This can be done after the seam > is > > pulled together , or any time before painting. I've never had any > > problems there as the intact metal ahead of the seam is 100% > strength. > > Brent > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > Spencer, I have not yet pulled the hull together for good, but > have > > > tried tentatively to make the edges join on the first half-hull > > that > > > I have cut out. There seems to be no notable stress at the dart- > > end. > > > Some resistance yes, but I expect that to be dstributed over the > > > entire panel and all along the weld. I think that in corners > where > > > several welds meet, even if the plate is otherwise flat, you > would > > > have a lot more stress due to the welding itself than to the > fact > > > that you "force" the sheet some. Every steelboat is full of such > > > places, for example around the bow, the transom-deck-hull corner > > aft > > > etc. and I have not heard of any problems with that. > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > the YAGO PROJECT at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > > wrote: > > > > I have never built an origami boat (have built a 20' alloy > center- > > > > console), but I am interested in doing so. It seems to me > that > > > the > > > > end of the hard chine (and end of the weld) is the very > > definition > > > of > > > > a stress concentration. Has anyone experienced cracking in > this > > > > area, or have any advice with regards to stress relief, or am > I > > > > concerned for nothing? > > > > > > > > This is the best group for metal boat building, oragami or not. > > > > > > > > Thanks for any advice. > > > > > > > > - Spencer | 4046|3915|2004-06-05 14:25:44|brentswain38|Re: frames|Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, after the shell is complete. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your > bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - > but maybe softer - to frames? > Gerd > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and > > collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, thus > > increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than > > longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end > for > > denting to occur. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > wrote: > > > Gerd, > > > > > > Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually > refer > > to > > > as free-form construction methods. > > > > > > I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have > > > adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced > > > stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with small > > > panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, etc, > > but > > > there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat > to > > > flex. > > > > > > How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs off > of > > > stringers? > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless origami > up > > > > for some time ;-) > > > > > > > > > What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group > is > > > the > > > > > notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To > me > > > this > > > > is ludicrious. > > > > > > > > Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and is > > > > really a bit misleading if always mentioned together > > as "frameless > > > > origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely > > different > > > > things here: > > > > 1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does > not > > > > require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor > even > > > > ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. > > > > 2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or > > stringers > > > > or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and > > > > longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats > without > > > > any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, > > there > > > > are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or > to > > > > both... If any of these boats would be build using the > origami > > > > method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ > the > > > > hull is build _without_ frames. > > > > > > > > Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces > > > frames > > > > for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn > > > simply > > > > leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you would > > > place > > > > them only where needed. > > > > > > > > I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded > only > > > to > > > > stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating follow > a > > > > natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch the > > > > stringers, not the skin. > > > > > > > > In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs > welded > > > > onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. On > my > > > > boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior > > > > arrangements so I will add some strategical structural frames - > > > > > AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of > the > > > > same thing really. > > > > > > > > There is another discussion as to the utility of creating hard > > > > points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design > > that > > > > favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to all > > > metal- > > > > boats and is not specific to "origami". > > > > > > > > Gerd | 4047|3997|2004-06-05 14:33:47|brentswain38|Re: nesting dory|14 guage will be heavy enough, they build aluminium runabouts out of 16 guage aluminium. Giving all surfaces a bit of curve in one direction or another will add a lot of surface stiffness. Experimenting with cardboard models will give you the shape you want, then expand it to full size. Steel will still be a bit heavy for a boat that size, but it will be a good first project. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jhwaalkes" wrote: > I have been lurking after finding this site, bought Brents book. Lots > of very good information. I had inquired of Brent regarding one of > his 31' boats that was for sale on e-bay, after looking at the > concept I decided a larger one would suit my desires better as I > currently own a 31' made of dead vegitation. Now my question, Brent > mentioned a nesting design. My local heating ventilating supplier > stocks galv metal sheets in 14 ga 4'X 8' and sometimes or can get 5'X > 10' sheets. I would like to start with the smaller dory and a > nesting one sounds like just the project. I own a selection of older > welding rigs from a AC buzz box, & a wire feed 110V made in UK to a > old 200amp gas fired that still runs fine. Not being a welder I just > patch things together. The gas welder was supposed to make me some $ > in the winter thawing pipes. But as the weather rarely gets that > cold even here in Anchorage, Ak.. used it to build a couple of tlrs. > Any ideas or Brent will the 14ga be heavy enough? if you have this > design I would like to buy it. Thanks in advance. John | 4048|3890|2004-06-05 14:34:39|brentswain38|Re: Flame Spray|Greg If you lay out all your pieces on a flat surface, you can check the symetry of the result, then install them with confidence that the end product will be symetrical. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Brent. I agree. Once the decks is on, if it is true, and the hull is true, everything will be true. > > The problem for us was to ensure that everything stayed symmetrical as the deck was installed in 6 pieces. Our concern was that > small alignment errors, coupled with the elasticity of the material, could cumulatively add up so that the two side were not > symmetrical. My inspiration for using string was John Hutton. I'd always admired the lines of his boats, and the curves he > achieved using a couple of pieces of string to keep things lined up. Part of my work was to see if we couldn't expand on these > ideas to minimize the amount of measuring, using visual aids and the mark one eye ball in place of a tape measure. > > regards, > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 12:55 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > Greg > > You'll find that putting a symetrical, pre cut deck on a well built, > > symetrical hull will make symetry a forgone conclusion, no string > > neccessary, and twist will be geometrically impossible. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what is > > possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur construction > > > in steel are well understood and documented. What has been lacking > > in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to use > > > this method to build alloy boats. > > > > > > So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different > > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques and > > made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those > > people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > construction. > > > > > > Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not > > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy as > > > steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather than > > their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > alloy. > > > > > > For steel welders the significant difference are: > > > > > > 1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be joined > > must be clean. > > > 2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding > > steel. > > > 3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a great > > steel weld. > > > > > > We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood than > > they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well find > > > that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in > > steel. > > > > > > We found: > > > > > > 1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, > > even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under shelter, > > > and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic > > tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > > > > 2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day (usually a > > few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding takes > > > practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > > > > > > 3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are much > > the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves more > > > during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred to a > > few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with small > > > "button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. > > Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the hull/deck > > > to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest results. > > Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting in > > strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to correct > > > for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > > > > > > 4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work alloy. > > Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the alloy > > ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about 100 > > > feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. Allowing > > the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. Plasma > > > cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > > > > > > 5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the > > fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. These > > > cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced 2-3 > > times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a milling > > > blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding disk. > > Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > > > > History shows that the difference between impossible and possible > > is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur with > > > sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running in a > > remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material that > > they choose. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4049|3977|2004-06-05 14:44:50|brentswain38|Re: Steel Catamaran|Ongolo said it well when he said that all new ideas go thru threee stages. First , it's ridiculed. Second , it's violently opposed. Third, it's self evident.I've always been surprised that old tanks aren't used more often in the way you describe. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > All good ideas start out with this reaction from people. First you hear > that's a "stupid idea", then they say "it can't be done", after that you get > "no one will buy it" and to top it off, everyone says it was obvious to them > after the fact. > Bob > > > > > >From: "audeojude" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran > >Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:20:22 -0000 > > > >Personally I think it is just mental enertia at work. People like > >things and are comfortable with things that are familiar and resist > >change in general. I have run into it all my life as I tend to in some > >ways think outside the box. In others I probably have my own enertia > >going on. :) I just try to be aware of it when it happens. I bet the > >firts person to build a metal boat got laughed out of the bar :) lol > > > >i mean everyone knows that metal is heavier than water :) It wont float. > > > >scott > > > >audeojude > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Sounds like a reasonable idea . It looks like you've done your > > > homework. Could it be possible that the cynics are selling real > > > estate, or trying to justify their own real estate debts? > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > > > wrote: > > > > I have thought about a steel catamaran concept before but it needs > > > to > > > > be big to get over the weight penalty. > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > I came up with a rough design using 30,000 gallon tanks of the kind > > > > they store propane and natural gas in. I will copy some of the > > > ideas I > > > > have emailed others about for this here and see what you think. :) > > > > > > > > This will be alittle disjointed as I'm copying portions of emails > > > that > > > > I have previously explored the concept in. I have uploaded the > > > images > > > > i created for the design to a new folder in the files section called > > > > steel catamaran > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the begining of the idea > > > > > > > > My goal with my design isn't for a boat to sail on a > > > > regular basis but a home to move. with living space > > > > and work shop space. Industrial quality finish as > > > > opposed to yacht finih. As Indistructable as I can > > > > build it. It would have full size power plants and > > > > large capacity fuel tanks. You could jack it up out of > > > > the water (as much as 10 feet out of the water > > > > if needed) for extended periods of time and live that > > > > way and use it as a base station to explore an area in > > > > with a smaller say 20 foot aux boat. Any of the 4 to 6 > > > > steel legs (spuds) in the up position could be used as masts > > > > for large junk rig sails. I would expect that it would > > > > be slow. In the 5 to 7 knot range > > > > > > > > The steel catamaran barge concept is just that a concept. I'm not > > > > trying to prove it can't be done :) lots of people > > > > have said that already. But I haven't seen any > > > > referances to people doing it and failing either. Or > > > > doing it and it being unusable. I'm trying to be > > > > innovative and prove that it can be done. The exercise > > > > in and of itself is worth the time and effort. :) If > > > > no one tilted at windmills where would the world be? > > > > I'm trying to find a way to make it work. I'm not > > > > going to spend money on it unless on paper I can make > > > > it work both technically and cost wise. > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why it is automatically > > > > assumed that it is nuts to do? We build very heavy and > > > > slow monos all the time. Multihulls are light and fast > > > > and give more space. But what if you built heavy > > > > multihull. You lose speed. Ok, so what! If you can > > > > build a heavy multi hull in significantly less time > > > > and for less cost and you trade that for speed is that > > > > an ok trade? Multihull people then say "but it can > > > > sink since it isnt foam and glass". Well mono's sink > > > > all the time. Big multi with each hull broke up into > > > > at least 4 compartments that can be entirely sealed > > > > with dogging doors both entry and going from > > > > compartment to compartment would be hell to sink > > > > compared to most monos. > > > > > > > > I looked up those propane tanks. a 30,000 gallon tank > > > > is 9.5 ft in diameter, 64 ft long. used I have seen > > > > price ranges from 3,000 to 15,000 dollars. I don't > > > > have weight on it yet. They probably are excedingly > > > > heavy since they are specked to safely contain 250lbs > > > > per square inch of pressure. > > > > > > > > what if it could be done? how about three of those 64 > > > > foot tanks tied together. Forget about building a > > > > bridge deck all together. Just those three tanks > > > > contains approx 960 sqft of floor space assuming that > > > > you build a interior deck where you have 5 ft of width > > > > between the outer walls of the tank. A lot of your > > > > mecanicals and tanks will fit under that with big > > > > access hatches to give easy access. Then build three > > > > or four 5 ft wide cat walks along the top of the beams > > > > connecting the three hulls and put in lots of webbing > > > > between those. you've got a huge flat very low windage > > > > area now. Mabye build one small pilot cabin on the > > > > center hull 2/3 of the way to the front to pilot from. > > > > > > > > I think for my application that steel would be the > > > > best material. I wouldnt be running from bad weather. > > > > but rather just act as raft if caught. 64 x 30 is hard > > > > to tip. probably have several dagger boards for keel > > > > and just pull them up and just have u-shaped or half > > > > round hulls in water. should act as very stable raft. > > > > Just design it so that there are many sealed > > > > compartments and all designed to survive large waves > > > > breaking over it for worst case. should have > > > > relatively shallow draft. Under 4 ft. near land run it > > > > into shallow water, river, marsh or other sheltered > > > > place and lift hull out of water so that it acts like > > > > a very tough house on pilings. water goes under it. > > > > > > > > > > > > ok next email expands on details a bit more as we worked on idea > > > > > > > > being able to lift the boat up out of the water on a > > > > seriously stable leg system has several advantages. > > > > 1. forget dry dock costs. You can go somewhere with > > > > even a mild tidal range and get her totally out of the > > > > water and easily accessable to 100% of the hull for > > > > maintenance. even if no tidal range you could lift her > > > > out of the water enough to get a dinghy under her and > > > > do maintenance. > > > > 2. if you lift her out of the water for large portions > > > > of the year as you are based somewhere and operate out > > > > of your smaller tender then your periods between > > > > repainting the hull will be greatly extended. > > > > 3. storms will be less of a threat when not at sea as > > > > you can lift her above the storm surge. she will big > > > > and heavy enough to be stable on the legs at this size > > > > also in bad winds. (this part needs some numbers run > > > > but I think it is a reasonable assumption up front) > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it exactly a sail assited motorraft or a motor > > > > assited sailing raft :) lol but yes that is the idea. > > > > Its a home that moves on the water. > > > > > > > > lets figure here. (im going back to imperial units for > > > > a bit) our volume is approx 21,737 cubic ft for one of > > > > the hulls at 64 ft long and 9.5 ft in diameter with > > > > hemispherical ends. multiply that by 64.1 lbs per > > > > cubic ft(weight of sea water) gives 1,393,341.7 lbs > > > > total displacement for one hull totally submerged. > > > > THis would be the 4.75 ft draft displacement figure > > > > for both hulls together or 696 tons displacement (ok > > > > im weirded out here. could you check these figures for > > > > me because this doesn't sound right. this thing is > > > > going to float like an empty eggshell.) > > > > > > > > ok at two feet of draft one cylinder has 47,837 lbs of > > > > displacement. both hulls would displace 95,675.66 lbs > > > > or 47 tons > > > > > > > > at one ft draft it would displace 34,357.6 lbs for > > > > both hulls. or about 17 tons. > > > > > > > > 3 ft of draft gives us 85560.68 lbs per hull or > > > > 171121.36 lbs displacement for both hulls or 85 tons > > > > (i figured tons by dividing lbs displacement by 2000.) > > > > > > > > so say totally build and loaded to the gills maybe 50 > > > > or 60 tons should give us a draft of around 2.5 feet > > > > or 3/4 of a meter. > > > > > > > > i used volume calculater at the following webpage. > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/partoutcyl.html > > > > for partial volumes > > > > and > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/outcylinder.html > > > > for volume of total cylinder. > > > > > > > > I have to get dry weight of these tanks. or at least > > > > metal thickness so i can calculate weight. > > > > hmm 5 mm steel plate 29.83 ft circumferance and 64 ft > > > > long weighs 6961 kilograms > > > > > > > > 3/16 inch plate would be 6630 kilograms > > > > > > > > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > > > url=/info/carbon/convert/metalcalculator/metalcalculator_kg.htm > > > > I used this calculator to figure this > > > > > > > > so converting to lbs the heavier of them for 5mm sheet > > > > steel would give us 15346.38 lbs for one hull sheet > > > > that size 30692.76 lbs for both hulls add in middle > > > > pod using all the steel in one tank and you get 46038 > > > > lbs or about 23 tons lets just double that and call it > > > > the finished vessal. ( i know this is rough but this > > > > is just a for instance) so we are weighing in at 46 > > > > tons. Using the partial volume of a cylinder > > > > calculater from earlier to figure draft gives about a > > > > 1.5 ft draft for each hull carrying half that tonnage. > > > > > > > > just looking at the calculator as I added draft it > > > > looks as if for roughly every additional inch of draft > > > > you get roughly another 2.5 tons of displacement per > > > > hull or thereabouts. ok my mind is bent. I'm going to > > > > take a break on this today. I have to do all this > > > > again on paper rather than free handing it here. It > > > > seems like it should not be that light. i mean we are > > > > talking a draft of only 1.5 feet (18 inches) 48 cm or > > > > half a mmeter? thats insane. I must have made an error > > > > in my figures. If this is true then your wetted > > > > surface is going to be very minimal and your length to > > > > width at the water line is going to be about 16 to 1. > > > > I hate to say this but if you put a shaped bow on this > > > > thing it should be fairly easy to push. with a small > > > > long fin keel or some dagger boards for directional > > > > stability you really could sail it. > > > > > > > > at 50 tons with 2 hp per ton displacement two auto > > > > diesels should push her really well. you would have > > > > about 4 hp per ton actually if you used a couple small > > > > volkswagon diesels. > > > > HULL SPEED = 1.34*lwl^.5 i know this is for mono's so > > > > it is not going to be very accurate for a cat > > > > configuration with a 16/1 waterline ratio but it would > > > > give a hull speed of 10.72 knots with 2 to 3 hp per > > > > ton displacement. i pulled that formula from this page > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bristolyht/screen.html > > > > > > > > > > > > another email here > > > > > > > > in your description of concept one did you mean to > > > > take and create one ovoid section out of two pieces of > > > > tank or to put two ovoid sections of tank one on top > > > > of the other between the hulls? > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that concept two would be easier to build with > > > > 3 or four sections of tank turned 90 degrees to the > > > > hull and cut on the contour of the hull. and attached > > > > so that they would be a little over a meter from the > > > > waterline of the hull. which would extend them about a > > > > meter and a half to two meters above the top of the > > > > hull decks. You could then even tie these togeter > > > > longitudinally with further sections between them > > > > going for and aft. All those curves being welded > > > > together would most likey give increadable strength. > > > > > > > > just use a plasma cutter to cut them apart and a crane > > > > to lift into position and tack together. If you had it > > > > all layed out and cut beforehand a crane for one or > > > > two days at most would get all the major hull pieces > > > > tacked together and ready for full welds at your > > > > convience. > > > > > > > > > > > > if my calculations from earlier were correct you top > > > > height above water would be about approx 12ft or just > > > > less than 4 meters tall, 18 meters long? and about 9 > > > > meters wide > > > > > > > > so we have three tanks giving us a 18 by 9 by 4 meter > > > > structure drawing about a 1/2 meter to 3/4 meters of > > > > water. ( im just thinking that a little wider would be > > > > more stable though) say about 12 meters wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > 64 / 3 = about 21 ft per section with 4.5 ft overlap > > > > at both ends so 21-(4.5+4.5) = 12 ft between hulls so > > > > 9.5+9.5+12= 31 ft wide > > > > > > > > just some more musings :) > > > > > > > > > > > > more musings on spud/mast system > > > > > > > > basically the masts would penitrate a welded in well > > > > all the way thru the hull and be tied into a > > > > reinforced bulk head. You would not dismount them. > > > > They would simply be winched straight up and down. say > > > > 50 ft round or squared steel tube. This gives you > > > > about a 10 foot bury thru the hull.steel cable > > > > attached at the top and bottom of mast to pull it up > > > > or down. Probably on the same winch. while one spools > > > > out the other spools in. (spool with seperator in > > > > middle. You would have a heavy raised lip say 6 to 12 > > > > inches high where the mast comes thru the > > > > partners/hull/deck level that you can put 1 inch or > > > > better steel pins thru the mast to hold it in place > > > > vertically up or down once it is in place. (could be > > > > some other method but something that will hold mast > > > > that is not the winch after it is where you want it. > > > > Maybe even a friction fitting. your hand winches would > > > > be capable of doing the job. No one winch would have > > > > to support the whole weight of the vessal. if you had > > > > 6 poles you could divide the weight of the vessal by 6 > > > > and then add a bit back for a safety margin. one of > > > > the barge winches was rated to 90 tons... this would > > > > be overkill. Acually just take and put a small > > > > electric auxillary motor on that for normal usage and > > > > use it manually if there is no power for some reason. > > > > In the mast position you would have 40 ft unstayed > > > > masts. if you used junk rig on it you wouldnt even > > > > have to dismount the sails when going to leg down > > > > mode. because of the design the boom and full battens > > > > would just rest in a fore and aft brackets above the > > > > deck and be lashed down. None of the rig on a junk rig > > > > is attached anywhere to the mast except the head and > > > > then on the deck. It just has some ropes at each > > > > batten that circle the mast and slide up and down > > > > freely. One person can handle multiple junk rigs with > > > > ease from the cockpit. That is one of the major > > > > selling points. A small woman can handle a two masted > > > > 35 footer by herself on watch in bad weather if it is > > > > properly set up. Because you only have 40 ft masts you > > > > are going to lose some of the wind higher up but you > > > > will make up with that in that junk rigs tend to carry > > > > about 20% more totall sail area safely than a > > > > comparable bermudan rig. I'm thinking the legs of mast > > > > will be on the order of 12 inches in diameter heavy > > > > steel or 12 inches square. That heavy weight aloft is > > > > why I was thinking wider is better. Raft stability > > > > concept. Not sure but your probably looking at about > > > > 1500 lbs per mast. because of leg mode they would be > > > > heavier than normal steel masts. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN > House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ | 4050|4013|2004-06-05 14:56:36|brentswain38|Re: resources|The beauty of backyard boats is you build as you can afford, and find inexpensive things to do or go scrounging when money gets short.With interest rates , you can double the price on anything bought on credit. Banks don't operate at a loss. With the availability of scrap steel and the number of things you can do with your scrap, there is a lot you can keep making progress on when the money gets short.You could even build and sell anchors, etc to refill the cookie jar. Despite having never had a bank loan in my life, by living cheaply and working at laborer's jobs ,I first set sail for New Zealand in my first boat at the ripe old age of 23 . If money is short, build a shell with a rig and bare plywood minimum neccesities inside .Foam can be covered later, altho I know several couples who sailed around the world without covering it.. Put plastic conduit in and do electrics later.Use kerosene lamps to begin with, and a bucket for a head.I did that and was sailing my current 31 footer for CDN$6,000. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I'm not advocating borrowed money. It can be a road to poverty for many. It can also be a road to opportunity for those who lack > resources. It got me started cruising, when others were telling me that I needed to sit tied to a desk for another 30 years. > > The difference between today and tomorrow is opportunity. Today you have the opportunity to do something. Tomorrow, the > opportunity you have today is gone. Opportunity is worth something, and once lost, it can never be recaptured. If the value of the > opportunity today is worth more than the cost of acting today, you should take advantage of opportunity. Dreams for the most part > are opportunity unrealized - opportunity seen but not acted on. > > Keep in mind. Borrowed money is in today's dollars, while you pay back in tomorrow's dollars. Tomorrow's dollars are usually worth > less than today's dollars. The difference between the rate of inflation and your interest rate is the "real" cost of borrowing. > Don't simply just "borrow". Look to see if you can get a loan with a very low "real" interest rate. When inflation is increasing, > you may even find a loan with a negative "real" interest rate, as would be the case if you had borrowed to buy steel and plywood > before the recent price increases. > > Again, I'm not saying to go borrow money. Rather, that with information, you can tell when it is in your best interest to borrow, > or when it is in the bank's best interest. Only borrow when it is in your best interest. This is one way to take advantage of > opportunity, to act on dreams to turn them into reality. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > doesn't it suck that most dreamers don't have the resources :) | 4051|3890|2004-06-05 15:02:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Flame Spray|Thanks Rich, even in steel it can makes sense to have a professional welder do the final welding. Most of us are not very good at anything the first time we try it, and usually we get to be good boat builders by the time we finish our first boat, when really we needed to be good builders when we started our first boat. Thus, it can make sense to help build a boat the first time, before you build one on your own. It the end, professional help in the right places will increase the quality, with only a small increase in total cost by the time the boat is completely finished. I think we tend to over estimate the cost of professional help, while minimizing the value. I do a lot of things on my own - preparation and cleanup especially. The things that take more time than skill, and then call in professionals for the few critical steps that are key to sucess. Learning to weld alloy reminded me of learning Morse Code for my amateur license. Some people can never do it. I had problems, because my mind kept getting in the way. I wanted to think about what I was doing, rather than just letting it happen. Then, I met an instructor that had me practice Morse at 30 WPM - more than 2 times the speed needed to pass the test. It is so fast at that speed, that there is no way I could do it, except by reflex. As I took my mind out of the loop, I started doing Morse. When we slowed down to 13 WPM for the test, it seemed so slow that I passed without difficulty. I was trying to learn to weld alloy by starting slow and speeding up, and then we had a welder on site that stopped me, and had me turn the machine way up, and weld so fast there was no way I could think about it. I practiced and practiced, and now when I turn the machine back a bit, it seems relatively slow and easy (it is still plenty fast). The first time my hand looped back on its own, to pick up a void, because my eye saw it, but I hadn't yet had the time to think about it, truly surprised me. It felt like I was watching someone else weld. The trick is getting to the point where you trust your reflexes to just do it. If anyone has doubts that they too can learn to weld by reflex, here is an example of what people can do. I used to work in a data processing center, in which we had data entry operators, that all typed upwards of 30,000 characters per hour, for 8 hours a day, of meaningless random numbers and letters, all the while talking to their neighbors about what they did the night before, and what they planned to do that night, only occasionally looking at the page they were reading from. If you asked them what they were typing they had no idea. They all said that when they were typing, they never consciously read what it was. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "richytill" To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 3:30 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > Greg, good overview on aluminium welding. And yes, alloy boats are > good boats--really good boats. As a welding instructor, I find that > about 2-3 people in 18 can learn to weld without difficulty and 1 > will often excel, 1-4 out of 18 will never quite get it and the rest > can get by. I would never buy an aluminum boat welded by a first > time amateur welder. I would want to know that the person was a > fully competent aluminum welder for all the reasons you have > outlined. The concept of tacking up the hull and hiring a good > aluminum welder makes sense. This also helps realise the advantage > of the increased weld speed in reduced labour cost. rt > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Hi Courtney, > > > > I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos > from the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > > for help learning. I found the following: > > > > The most common welding problems are caused by: > > > > 1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. > > 2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete > penetration.. > > > > Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it > contradictory. Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, > as the > > material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen > were done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > > certification other that what they learned from other welders and > from trial and error. > > > > The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, > practice. The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > > to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, > cut 6" of welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > > weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see > when they break, one in one direction, the other in the other > > direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 > samples, cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > > side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend > away from the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > > incomplete penetration. > > > > Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the > weld area immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > > acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other > than alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > > to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle > to weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > > > > The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire > speed guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > > minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If > the edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > > bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably > doing a cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > > where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, > you probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > > even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), > but this can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > > final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by > contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > > water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice > piece to the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > > machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to > starting any new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > > weld reliably. > > > > However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the > voltage and wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > > is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire > speed while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > > high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can > produce even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > > pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first > learning don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > > an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then > move on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > > you have lots of practice. > > > > If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for > welding alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > > thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more > with regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > > impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The > faster you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > > You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a > part along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > > turn down the heat. > > > > For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get > a cold weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > > your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, > without cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > > welding using he milling blade. > > > > I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are > soldering, the melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > > wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what > you see in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > > flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into > this "puddle". As the puddle fills to the brim of the parent > material, you > > move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side > of the wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > > backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers > that it has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > > you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. > > > > Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in > the end you need to find what works for you. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > . > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Courtney Thomas" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > Thank you for sharing your experience. > > > > > > Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL > welding" ? > > > > > > What are the barriers for amateurs ? > > > > > > I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able > to do this. > > > > > > Appreciatively, > > > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > > We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what > is possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > > construction > > > > in steel are well understood and documented. What has been > lacking in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > > use > > > > this method to build alloy boats. > > > > > > > > So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > > boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques > and made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > > origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those > people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > > construction. > > > > > > > > Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > > as > > > > steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather > than their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > > alloy. > > > > > > > > For steel welders the significant difference are: > > > > > > > > 1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be > joined must be clean. > > > > 2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding > steel. > > > > 3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a > great steel weld. > > > > > > > > We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood > than they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > > find > > > > that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in > steel. > > > > > > > > We found: > > > > > > > > 1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without > shelter, even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > > shelter, > > > > and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic > tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > > > > > > 2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day > (usually a few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > > takes > > > > practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > > > > > > > > 3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are > much the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > > more > > > > during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred > to a few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > > small > > > > "button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger > tacks. Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > > hull/deck > > > > to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest > results. Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > > correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting > in strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > > correct > > > > for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > > > > > > > > 4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work > alloy. Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > > blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the > alloy ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > > 100 > > > > feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. > Allowing the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > > Plasma > > > > cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > > > > > > > > 5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the > fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > > These > > > > cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced > 2-3 times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > > milling > > > > blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding > disk. Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > > > > > > History shows that the difference between impossible and > possible is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > > with > > > > sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running > in a remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > > ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material > that they choose. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > s/v Mutiny > > > Rhodes Bounty II > > > lying Oriental, NC > > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4052|4013|2004-06-05 15:02:33|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: resources|Hi Phil, One problem with e-mail is that it takes what would be normal spoken conversation and makes innocent comments sound more important and confrontational than the writer intended. Thus, if I was speaking to someone and said offhand, for example "don't get me wrong" it would mean I want to explain more, but in e-mail it sounds more like a criticism of the reader. If anything I write sounds that way, it isn't intended. What you have written, to me, speaks volumes about the legal system, which I do feel is very unfair, being weighted much to the advantage of the person with the most money. Thus, if someone steals your money, and you try and take them to court through civil action, you have no money with which to fight the case, and they have your money with which to defend. Crooks know this. If they can steal enough, they are pretty much home free if you try and take them to court. If there is any advice I can offer it is to always put things in writing, even if it is just a follow-up letter, and keep a copy. Always get a receipt for everything you pay for. If you enter the legal system with your case in writing, the only thing to prove is how much you are owed. If you enter the legal system with only your word, you have to prove your word is perfect, which is pretty well impossible. If a bank disregards your verbal instructions, you are going to have a hard time in court, and will probably lose. If a bank disregards your written instructions, they may still try and bluff you, but their lawyers will advise them to settle if you don't back down. Your 24,000+ - I wouldn't beat myself up in the least over the past. I think if you really look at where you are in your life, you did pretty well. You moved your life ahead 1 year, so that you could have a home, and the opportunity to do something you love one year earlier. None of us are growing any younger. We are all condemned men (women), and no amount of money can bring back your youth, or your health for that matter. Many problems could have come up in the extra year, that might in the end have prevented you from getting your own house. Opportunity not taken is often opportunity lost. Yes, inspectors are a pain, except if your house burns down, and the insurance company refuses to pay because you were not inspected. Bank loans are not for everyone. However, the bad experiences of some do not mean everyone will have bad experiences. Most of us know someone that has been killed in a car, yet we continue to drive. For my part, I borrowed the money to buy a house, moved aboard the boat and hired a reliable property manager to rent the house. The rent paid off the mortgage, and the value of the house grew in 25 years from less that 100,000 to close to 600,000. So, while we were cruising, we saved the equivalent of 500,000 (after taxes) without working. Most working people have trouble doing this. Correctly done, you can use a bank to your advantage as a means to make your cruising a reality. When I talk about borrowing, I'm really talking about thinking outside the box a bit when you borrow money. Borrow to do something that has a good chance of enhancing your life, beyond what you could hope to achieve by other means. If I had simply kept working and saving, until I could afford to buy the house and boat outright, it would likely never have happened, and I would never have gone cruising. Prices have gone up over the years much faster than wages, which can be plainly seen by the number of households in which both parents must work just to make ends meet. When I was growing up, it was rare for both parents to need to work. If I had thought conventionally, I would still be working in an office, 25 years later, never having lived my dreams. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil S." To: Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: resources > Maybe in another time, I watched as a friend had his house built, the contractor wanted a > draw but wasn't completed with the agreed work. My friend refused to sign until the work > was completed. The contractor went to the bank (Canandaigua National), my friend told > the bank the work wasn't done and not to advance the money, the bank gave the > contractor the money anyway. The contractor took the money, walked off the job and > declared bankruptcy never paying any of the suppliers or subcontractors. The bank then > sued my friend for the money that they had given the contractor (Against his will), after 6 > years of legal battles a judge awarded the bank the money plus legal fees and interest(at > nearly twice the rate of the loan) , costing my friend over $300,000. There by losing the > home he completed with his own money paying as he went. > > This same friend owns a company, his accountant was stealing money. His accountant's > mother was president of the branch the company did business at (M&T). The bank > charged him $80k in fees and other associated costs to investigate what was the banks > problem, accepting obviously forged checks. He has often said his money would have > been safer dumped on the front lawn. > > When I was young I bought a car with a loan, shortly there after I was sent to Korea for 2 > years, I filled out a slip at the payclerk to have my car payment sent to the Rochester > branch of Marine Midland Bank. Someone at the main Army pay office changed the address > to the Buffalo main branch, As requested by the bank. Sending my payments there. 7 > months later I get a call (In Korea!!) from my father saying the car was repossessed. I > couldn't come home to solve said problem and Marine Midland sold my car at auction for > much less than owed. What happened to the money the Army was sending to the wrong > branch? Instead of finding out where the money was supposed to be going the bank > opened a savings account for me, and of course didn't find that money until after the car > was sold, which was not enough to cover the difference in what I still owed them. So at 20 > years old my credit was ruined because of one of these lovely tools. Banks are run by > crooks people who can and will screw you at any point in time. > > Problem with doing things in a hurry if something goes wrong your screwed. The bank > won't care if you fell off a ladder and can't work for 6 months. They will happily foreclose > and ruin everything you have built. > > I will pay as I go, and when all is said and done, I will sell my house I built, Pay off the > loan, invest the balance in insured funds, and enjoy the cruising lifestyle. > Regards > Phil > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A bank is a tool, just like a hammer. Learn how it works, and you can do things in a > hurry. Try and use it without knowing what > > you are doing, and it will hurt you. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4053|3890|2004-06-05 15:05:37|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Flame Spray|Thanks Gary. I think the information provided by this group is great. Gary's earlier post on alloy hit the nail on the head for me, and explained a lot that I had seen, but not been able to find explanation. The problem with learning from good welders is that they are a lot like good athletes. A lot of what they do is instinctive. They know when something is right or wrong, but not why. Cruising is a mind set. If your filler rod isn't working, then do what Gary did - find something else that does work. When you are at sea, and something breaks, you can't sit around blaming the problem on defective parts, materials, and people - that is the stuff of politicians and the like. The CAN'T DO people. To go cruising , you need to be CAN DO. Figure out how to make something work, rather than why it won't. To me, origami metal boats are great. The shapes are limited by imagination only. Some people like steel, others like alloy. That is the way it should be. Some people like brunettes, others like red-heads. We are much further ahead when we discuss how to meet more brunettes and red-heads, rather than worrying if brunettes are better than red-heads. Me, I'm partial to red-heads, but that never made me dislike brunettes. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary H. Lucas" To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > Greg, > Your post sounds very good to me. If you tack on my previous post about > what to look for while welding, no ball on the end of the wire, little > smoke, no sparks, and a spraying sound, you've got almost everything you > need to know to make sound welds, except the practice! > > One other little tidbit. Using the right filler wire is EXTREMELY > important. Years ago someone asked me to weld a Volkswagen engine block, > the generator mount was broken completely off. I welded it up and it looked > beautiful. We were standing there waiting for it to cool completely when we > heard a tiny 'pop' sound. The entire weld fell cleanly out of my carefully > V grooved joint! He got me a piece from another broken engine block. I > sliced it into filler rods on the vertical bandsaw. I then welded it again > and we had no problems. I've done this several time since. > > Aluminum filler wires though are usually not the same alloy as the base > metal. When you weld you are creating a new alloy at the interface between > the parent metal and the weld bead. The filler wire is designed to create a > strong new alloy with constituents from both the filler wire and the base > metal. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:22 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > > > Hi Courtney, > > > > I am no expert. I looked for info on the Internet, took out videos from > the library, and pestered every alloy welder I could find > > for help learning. I found the following: > > > > The most common welding problems are caused by: > > > > 1. Dirty, contaminated weld zone - porosity. > > 2. Too little heat, too slow wire speed - cold welds, incomplete > penetration.. > > > > Every alloy welder has different information, lots of it contradictory. > Automotive and aircraft welding can be misleading, as the > > material may be thinner. Some of the strongest welds I have seen were > done by welders that were self taught, with no training or > > certification other that what they learned from other welders and from > trial and error. > > > > The only way to learn to weld alloy is to practice, practice, practice. > The only way to really judge if you are doing good welds is > > to coupon test your work. For those not familiar with a coupon, cut 6" of > welded material into 1" strips at right angles to the > > weld. Throw away the pieces on the end. Bend 2 samples to see when they > break, one in one direction, the other in the other > > direction. I'm not happy until I see 180 degrees. The other 2 samples, > cut a shallow notch along the surface of the weld on one > > side on one piece, and the other side on the other piece. Bend away from > the notch until it breaks. Look for porosity or > > incomplete penetration. > > > > Don't use cutting wax anywhere in your shop. SS wire brush the weld area > immediately prior to welding. Keep the brushes clean with > > acetone/zylene. Don't use your blades, brushes on anything other than > alloy. Use a skill saw or milling blade to gouge the welds > > to get the correct geometry. In general you want a 90 degree angle to > weld into, similar to a fillet weld. > > > > The major problem we saw is that in general the voltage and wire speed > guides on the miller welder and elsewhere are at best > > minimums, and typically result in cold welds with no strength. If the > edges of the weld are not flush with the material, with a > > bright, shiny 1/8" margin feathered on the edges, you are probably doing a > cold weld. If you see a ridge at the edge of the welds > > where it meets the parent material, or their is no bright margin, you > probably have a cold weld with no strength. You want a nice, > > even margin on both sides. Some people pre-heat (warm, not hot), but this > can introduce new problems, as moisture is a no-no when > > final welding, as it produces porosity. (porosity is caused by > contamination of the weld by anything containing hydrogen - like > > water, oil, grease, wax, solvents). I sometimes clamp a practice piece to > the job to be welded, to preheat while setting up the > > machine. You should practice to set up the machine prior to starting any > new weld/position, and coupon test until you can do the > > weld reliably. > > > > However, when you are learning to weld, when you turn up the voltage and > wire speed, the welds are so fast that you cannot see what > > is happening. The temptation is to turn down the voltage and wire speed > while learning. DON'T DO THIS. Practice with thick wire, > > high voltage and high wire speed, and CONCENTRATE, until you can produce > even, flat welds flowed in smoothly at the margins, that > > pass a bend and nick test, with no porosity. When you are first learning > don't even try and weld a joint. Spend time just running > > an even bead, with proper margins, until it is second nature. Then move > on to fillet welds. Leave butt welds to the experts, until > > you have lots of practice. > > > > If you do this, at high speed, you will develop a reflex for welding > alloy, where your hand and eye will weld without your brain > > thinking about it. It will probably take a couple of weeks or more with > regular practice, but once you have it, what seemed > > impossible when you first started will be almost automatic. The faster > you practice, the easier it gets at slightly slower speeds. > > You control distortion in alloy by using small tacks to secure a part > along its length, prior to using heavier tacks. You do not > > turn down the heat. > > > > For really short welds, use even more heat, to ensure you don't get a cold > weld. Use short tacks to locate the stop and starts for > > your welds. Gouge out suspect tacks (the cold ones made outside, without > cleaning, while it was raining, etc.) as you are final > > welding using he milling blade. > > > > I think of welding alloy more like soldering. When you are soldering, the > melted solder will flow outward, ahead of the solder > > wire, when the heat is right and the material clean. This is what you see > in alloy welding. When it is right, the melted alloy > > flows out ahead of the wire, and you move the wire into this "puddle". As > the puddle fills to the brim of the parent material, you > > move ahead. You get voids when the puddle slides around one side of the > wire as you are moving, and with practice your hand > > backtracks to pick up the puddle before your brain even registers that it > has happened. If the alloy globs ahead of the wire when > > you are welding, you are probably welding too cold. > > > > Hope this helps. Other people will have other information, and in the end > you need to find what works for you. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > . > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Courtney Thomas" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > Thank you for sharing your experience. > > > > > > Any sources for HOWTO do "high strength/quality alloy FINAL welding" ? > > > > > > What are the barriers for amateurs ? > > > > > > I have a MIG/TIG/stick Miller welder and am motivated to be able to do > this. > > > > > > Appreciatively, > > > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@... wrote: > > > > > > > We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what is > possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur > > construction > > > > in steel are well understood and documented. What has been lacking in > origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to > > use > > > > this method to build alloy boats. > > > > > > > > So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > > boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques and made > them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > > origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those people > that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > > construction. > > > > > > > > Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of alloy > > as > > > > steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather than > their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > > alloy. > > > > > > > > For steel welders the significant difference are: > > > > > > > > 1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be joined must > be clean. > > > > 2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding steel. > > > > 3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a great > steel weld. > > > > > > > > We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood than > they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well > > find > > > > that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in steel. > > > > > > > > We found: > > > > > > > > 1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, even > in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > > shelter, > > > > and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic tarps > can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > > > > > > 2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day (usually a few > minutes). High quality, high strength final welding > > takes > > > > practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > > > > > > > > 3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are much > the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves > > more > > > > during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred to a > few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with > > small > > > > "button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. > Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the > > hull/deck > > > > to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest results. > Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > > correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting in > strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to > > correct > > > > for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > > > > > > > > 4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work alloy. > Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > > blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the alloy > ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about > > 100 > > > > feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. Allowing the > blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. > > Plasma > > > > cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > > > > > > > > 5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the fastest > way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > > These > > > > cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced 2-3 > times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a > > milling > > > > blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding disk. > Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > > > > > > History shows that the difference between impossible and possible is > knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur > > with > > > > sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running in a > remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > > ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material that > they choose. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > s/v Mutiny > > > Rhodes Bounty II > > > lying Oriental, NC > > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4054|3901|2004-06-05 15:57:55|sae140|Re: Mig vs Stick welding = Saving Time!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, garry crothers wrote: > Has anybody any experience of the Readyweld guns mentioned here > www.readwelder.com. > I was thinking about getting one for use on the boat? > > garry For another welder suitable to take along on a boat, take a look at: http://www.off-road.com/chevy/gowelder/goweld.html They call it a MIG welder, although strictly speaking it isn't. Colin| 4055|4013|2004-06-05 16:09:29|Phil S.|Re: resources|Hi Greg; We have been chatting long enough to understand what the other means. My point about the $24k wan't clear, it actually set me back 5 years. I also ended up doing things with the house that I am now going back and doing the way I originally wanted them done. I love doing sh%t twice. I agree about contracts, but I have seen the contract my friend had with the bank. It clearly stated that no monies were to be extended without expressed written permission. Did the judge care? nope. I have been learning from a long series of expensive lessons, never trust a lawyer (The lawyer I hired to do my divorce two years ago is currently in jail) even if you have some in plain language they will twist it to mean what they need it too. Contracts are unnecessary between honest peopel other than to state what each ones responibilities are, a dishonest person will screw you dispite what the contracts say. I am lucky in several ways, I was able to keep the farm in the divorce. I have five beautiful and healthy children and a loving partner. Although the land I own being heavy clay is unsuitable for subdivision and building. I am going alter that by hauling in loads of sand with a dump trailer and my small truck, It will take a while but eventualy it will be done. Instead of making a small profit from selling building lots, after paying the taxes and interst on the loan I think I am losing money. I am going to build some houses and sell them off that way, I can throw a stick built house together in a few months, timber frames take me a little longer. I have a friend who was a multi billionaire, he told me once he never made a dime on land, he made more money selling worms than he did with real estate. I should have listened. Regards Phil| 4056|3890|2004-06-05 16:16:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Flame Spray|We were experimenting with alternatives to assembling and lifting the 55' x 16' deck in one piece. We found that the hull would rack about an inch, for each 1/16th inch misalignment in the seams on the side decks. 1/16 is less than the accuracy of our layout and saw cuts. The side decks on the G55 are approximately 3', the deck 55'. For an error of 1/16", the hull would rack about 55/3 * 1/16 = 1.1 inches. With more typical layout and cutting accurate to 1/8", and 2 seams per side, we could have seen maybe 55/3 * 2 * 1/8 = 4.6 inches of rack. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ---- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:34 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > Greg > If you lay out all your pieces on a flat surface, you can check the > symetry of the result, then install them with confidence that the end > product will be symetrical. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Brent. I agree. Once the decks is on, if it is true, and the > hull is true, everything will be true. > > > > The problem for us was to ensure that everything stayed symmetrical > as the deck was installed in 6 pieces. Our concern was that > > small alignment errors, coupled with the elasticity of the > material, could cumulatively add up so that the two side were not > > symmetrical. My inspiration for using string was John Hutton. I'd > always admired the lines of his boats, and the curves he > > achieved using a couple of pieces of string to keep things lined > up. Part of my work was to see if we couldn't expand on these > > ideas to minimize the amount of measuring, using visual aids and > the mark one eye ball in place of a tape measure. > > > > regards, > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 12:55 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: re:Flame Spray > > > > > > > Greg > > > You'll find that putting a symetrical, pre cut deck on a well > built, > > > symetrical hull will make symetry a forgone conclusion, no string > > > neccessary, and twist will be geometrically impossible. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > We joined this site to expand the body of knowledge about what > is > > > possible in origami. Origami techniques for amateur construction > > > > in steel are well understood and documented. What has been > lacking > > > in origami is techniques that will allow amateur builders to use > > > > this method to build alloy boats. > > > > > > > > So, for the past year we have been experimenting with different > > > building techniques to allow amateur builders to reliably build > > > > boats in alloy. We freely publish our results and techniques > and > > > made them public domain. For those people that prefer steel, > > > > origami is a good solution for amateur construction. For those > > > people that prefer alloy, origami is a good solution for amateur > > > > construction. > > > > > > > > Our findings confirm that experienced steel workers are not > > > automatically great alloy workers. They continue to think of > alloy as > > > > steel, and make mistakes that they blame on the alloy, rather > than > > > their lack of experience. This leads to false notions about > > > > alloy. > > > > > > > > For steel welders the significant difference are: > > > > > > > > 1. Preparation - unlike stick welding, the material to be > joined > > > must be clean. > > > > 2. Reflexes - welding alloy is a different motion than welding > > > steel. > > > > 3. Evaluation - a bad alloy weld superficially looks like a > great > > > steel weld. > > > > > > > > We found that alloy techniques and methods are more like wood > than > > > they are like steel. Experienced wood workers could well find > > > > that origami building in alloy is more natural than building in > > > steel. > > > > > > > > We found: > > > > > > > > 1. Alloy boats can be reliably tacked outside, without shelter, > > > even in the rain. Work will progress faster if done under > shelter, > > > > and final welding must be sheltered from the weather. Plastic > > > tarps can be used to build low cost shelters. > > > > > > > > 2. Amateurs can learn to tack alloy in less than a day > (usually a > > > few minutes). High quality, high strength final welding takes > > > > practice, and is best done by hiring a professional welder. > > > > > > > > 3. The methods for producing fair origami shapes in alloy are > much > > > the same as in steel. Alloy is easier to form, but moves more > > > > during welding. To allow for this, many small tacks preferred > to a > > > few large tacks. Parts should be tacked full length with small > > > > "button" tacks, prior to strengthening joints with larger tacks. > > > Welding longitudinals on the flat, prior to pulling the hull/deck > > > > to shape is the fastest method, and produces the fairest > results. > > > Longitudinals placed close to edges help create fair seams, > > > > correcting for small cutting errors String, used for sighting > in > > > strategic locations provides a quick reference point, to correct > > > > for level, angles, symmetry and twist, with minimal measuring. > > > > > > > > 4. Woodworking tools are much the same tools used to work > alloy. > > > Alloy is best cut with low cost, carbide tipped, wood cutting > > > > blades. It is fast, no grinding is required, and leaves the > alloy > > > ready for welding. A $5, 7x24 carbide blade will cut about 100 > > > > feet of 3/8" alloy before it needs sharpening/replacing. > Allowing > > > the blade to chatter while cutting will dull it quickly. Plasma > > > > cutting leaves an edge that must be removed prior to welding. > > > > > > > > 5. A carbide tipped milling blade on an angle grinder is the > > > fastest way to shape and fit alloy, and prepare it for welding. > These > > > > cost about $70, and will probably need to be sharpened/replaced > 2-3 > > > times when building a boat. You can fit alloy with a milling > > > > blade perhaps 100 times faster than with a grinding/sanding > disk. > > > Grinding/sanding disks are only required for final finishing. > > > > > > > > History shows that the difference between impossible and > possible > > > is knowledge. Armed with sufficient information, any amateur with > > > > sufficient skills to take a boat offshore,and keep it running > in a > > > remote location, will be more than capable of building a boat > > > > ashore, with the resources that are available, in any material > that > > > they choose. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4057|4013|2004-06-05 16:17:43|denis buggy|Re: resources|dear mike if you go ahead there are a few helpful steps along the way , if your workshop is used for trade as well as your project your tools and equipment and repairs to your garage est. are tax deductible , a little forward planning can help , if you have a local technical school or company you could do a deal to share the use of the boat for a serious share of the expense and a serious share of the project from design to welding .interesting projects are very rare and very welcome if presented properly the romantic imagery of a boat project usually interests . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: fmichael graham To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: resources Phil: When I bought my property last year, I was blessed with the "neighbour above all neighbours". This guy is a master carpenter with excellent knowledge of what the district requirements are for property development, where to get the best local price on materials & equipment, and, above all, is a very nice & helpful person, as are his wife & kids. Sadly, he took out a mortgage to complete the building of his house and has had to sell the house and land to pay the debt off, as work in that area was lacking. I have learned that not owing anybody anything is the best way to go. It can take longer to get what you want but you pay out less in the long run and no one can take it from you or tell you what to do with it. Ah, peace of mind! Mike "Phil S." wrote: Maybe in another time, I watched as a friend had his house built, the contractor wanted a draw but wasn't completed with the agreed work. My friend refused to sign until the work was completed. The contractor went to the bank (Canandaigua National), my friend told the bank the work wasn't done and not to advance the money, the bank gave the contractor the money anyway. The contractor took the money, walked off the job and declared bankruptcy never paying any of the suppliers or subcontractors. The bank then sued my friend for the money that they had given the contractor (Against his will), after 6 years of legal battles a judge awarded the bank the money plus legal fees and interest(at nearly twice the rate of the loan) , costing my friend over $300,000. There by losing the home he completed with his own money paying as he went. This same friend owns a company, his accountant was stealing money. His accountant's mother was president of the branch the company did business at (M&T). The bank charged him $80k in fees and other associated costs to investigate what was the banks problem, accepting obviously forged checks. He has often said his money would have been safer dumped on the front lawn. When I was young I bought a car with a loan, shortly there after I was sent to Korea for 2 years, I filled out a slip at the payclerk to have my car payment sent to the Rochester branch of Marine Midland Bank. Someone at the main Army pay office changed the address to the Buffalo main branch, As requested by the bank. Sending my payments there. 7 months later I get a call (In Korea!!) from my father saying the car was repossessed. I couldn't come home to solve said problem and Marine Midland sold my car at auction for much less than owed. What happened to the money the Army was sending to the wrong branch? Instead of finding out where the money was supposed to be going the bank opened a savings account for me, and of course didn't find that money until after the car was sold, which was not enough to cover the difference in what I still owed them. So at 20 years old my credit was ruined because of one of these lovely tools. Banks are run by crooks people who can and will screw you at any point in time. Problem with doing things in a hurry if something goes wrong your screwed. The bank won't care if you fell off a ladder and can't work for 6 months. They will happily foreclose and ruin everything you have built. I will pay as I go, and when all is said and done, I will sell my house I built, Pay off the loan, invest the balance in insured funds, and enjoy the cruising lifestyle. Regards Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A bank is a tool, just like a hammer. Learn how it works, and you can do things in a hurry. Try and use it without knowing what > you are doing, and it will hurt you. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4058|4013|2004-06-05 16:39:59|intiaboats|Re: resources|Denis: Thanks for the advice. My present challenge is to find sustaining employment in the area of my property (Prince George, B.C.). Presently, I reside 980km away, in Vancouver, B.C., so, commuting is out of the question. I've decided to return to my previous career, as a welder , and hope to find employment in the vicinity of my land. In 6 to 10 years, I hope to return to the Philippines & build steel-hulled boats for our beach resort(in development), fishing business(in operation) and, perhaps, one or two for selling. I like the Denis Ganley designs but appreciate the ease & speed of the origami method of fabrication with the "draw" of being able to do it, literally, anywhere. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear mike if you go ahead there are a few helpful steps along the way , if your workshop is used for trade as well as your project your tools and equipment and repairs to your garage est. are tax deductible , a little forward planning can help , if you have a local technical school or company you could do a deal to share the use of the boat for a serious share of the expense and a serious share of the project from design to welding .interesting projects are very rare and very welcome if presented properly the romantic imagery of a boat project usually interests . denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: fmichael graham > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: resources > > > Phil: > When I bought my property last year, I was blessed with the "neighbour > above all neighbours". This guy is a master carpenter with excellent knowledge of what the district requirements are for property development, where to get the best local price on materials & equipment, and, above all, is a very nice & helpful person, as are his wife & kids. Sadly, he took out a mortgage to complete the building of his house and has had to sell the house and land to pay the debt off, as work in that area was lacking. I have learned that not owing anybody anything is the best way to go. It can take longer to get what you want but you pay out less in the long run and no one can take it from you or tell you what to do with it. Ah, peace of mind! > Mike > > "Phil S." wrote: > Maybe in another time, I watched as a friend had his house built, the contractor wanted a > draw but wasn't completed with the agreed work. My friend refused to sign until the work > was completed. The contractor went to the bank (Canandaigua National), my friend told > the bank the work wasn't done and not to advance the money, the bank gave the > contractor the money anyway. The contractor took the money, walked off the job and > declared bankruptcy never paying any of the suppliers or subcontractors. The bank then > sued my friend for the money that they had given the contractor (Against his will), after 6 > years of legal battles a judge awarded the bank the money plus legal fees and interest(at > nearly twice the rate of the loan) , costing my friend over $300,000. There by losing the > home he completed with his own money paying as he went. > > This same friend owns a company, his accountant was stealing money. His accountant's > mother was president of the branch the company did business at (M&T). The bank > charged him $80k in fees and other associated costs to investigate what was the banks > problem, accepting obviously forged checks. He has often said his money would have > been safer dumped on the front lawn. > > When I was young I bought a car with a loan, shortly there after I was sent to Korea for 2 > years, I filled out a slip at the payclerk to have my car payment sent to the Rochester > branch of Marine Midland Bank. Someone at the main Army pay office changed the address > to the Buffalo main branch, As requested by the bank. Sending my payments there. 7 > months later I get a call (In Korea!!) from my father saying the car was repossessed. I > couldn't come home to solve said problem and Marine Midland sold my car at auction for > much less than owed. What happened to the money the Army was sending to the wrong > branch? Instead of finding out where the money was supposed to be going the bank > opened a savings account for me, and of course didn't find that money until after the car > was sold, which was not enough to cover the difference in what I still owed them. So at 20 > years old my credit was ruined because of one of these lovely tools. Banks are run by > crooks people who can and will screw you at any point in time. > > Problem with doing things in a hurry if something goes wrong your screwed. The bank > won't care if you fell off a ladder and can't work for 6 months. They will happily foreclose > and ruin everything you have built. > > I will pay as I go, and when all is said and done, I will sell my house I built, Pay off the > loan, invest the balance in insured funds, and enjoy the cruising lifestyle. > Regards > Phil > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > A bank is a tool, just like a hammer. Learn how it works, and you can do things in a > hurry. Try and use it without knowing what > > you are doing, and it will hurt you. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4059|4042|2004-06-05 22:58:53|Graeme|Re: Remove me...|SIGGE You have to do that your self in buy sending a email to the this address. Or you can turn your emails off from your profile ...from the mail list, pls. Will be out on the blue for a while. Regards Sigge Johansson To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4060|3977|2004-06-06 02:59:00|denis buggy|Re: Steel Catamaran|dear Scott I have visited a elderly man who cannot be stopped from dreaming and doing . he commenced last year his "barge project " and it is taking shape I may send a photo soon . it has a h pillar for a keel, a box welded inside the h for cooling his marine lister and the hull surprise surprise is a ex petrol tanker all 4 mill thick beautifully rolled and the seams seem to be swaged and welded for a good leak free joint . there is hope yet. denis ----- Original Message ----- From: audeojude To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 3:53 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran :) this is my pie in the sky dream of the life i would really like to live. :) most likely I will end up buying a small used sail boat or building one of brents boats to go cruising on for a few years. However I love dreams just for the dreaming even if practically it would take more resources than I have or believe I am likely to get my hands on to do the whole nine yards. But I still love to dream :) There is deep part of me that leans torward a self sufficient life ( and one with as few offical ties to our growing buerocracy) that I can move anywhere I want to go. anyway I could ramble on over a multitude of subjects that all tie into the desire and the possible implimentations of such a dream. I won't subject you to that. I will just leave it at Dreams are what make life worth living. Scott ps . lol now if you can make your dream come true... that is excellence!!!! -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > DEAR AUDEOJUDE excellent contribution to the dreams of many , you have stated the thoughts of what I now know through the trade press and web to be a large shift in the vision of what a human being hopes to achieve by going to sea in a boat with his / her family and making the unselfish compromises which allow a family to have a safe and comfortable holiday and a second home which can be also used by the extended family , friends , business promotion get to know you (while fishing for the take home monster fish look what daddy caught ) and merely mooring in a beautiful place sheltered for the night while the barbecue does its work and the various toys surf boards bikes and showers and twin heads allow a pleasant mellow feeling that things are right in the world at that moment > while the family go about their thing in a truly privileged environment , > it seems unnatural to those who wish to extract a extra solitary knot or two of speed from a cramped and lonely boat that there is another view which thankfully holds no prejudice against them or any other type of boat . > you may wish to study a good site which reflects much of your ideas > try john shuttleworth yacht designs and in particular his aerorig sails cat and you will also see a stress analysis of the spaceframe used to keep the show together . frameless orgami take note fresh air will not do to hold a multi hull together . thanks for the courageously expressed dream many have shared your road quietly . regards denis To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4061|3915|2004-06-06 10:50:20|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: frames|Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time in any structure subject to loads. ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the stringers). Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames > Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the > hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see > this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the > hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, > after the shell is complete. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your > > bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - > > but maybe softer - to frames? > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and > > > collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, > thus > > > increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than > > > longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end > > for > > > denting to occur. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > > > wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > > > > > Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually > > refer > > > to > > > > as free-form construction methods. > > > > > > > > I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have > > > > adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced > > > > stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with > small > > > > panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, > etc, > > > but > > > > there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat > > to > > > > flex. > > > > > > > > How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs > off > > of > > > > stringers? > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless > origami > > up > > > > > for some time ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group > > is > > > > the > > > > > > notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To > > me > > > > this > > > > > is ludicrious. > > > > > > > > > > Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and > is > > > > > really a bit misleading if always mentioned together > > > as "frameless > > > > > origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely > > > different > > > > > things here: > > > > > 1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does > > not > > > > > require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor > > even > > > > > ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. > > > > > 2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or > > > stringers > > > > > or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and > > > > > longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats > > without > > > > > any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, > > > there > > > > > are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or > > to > > > > > both... If any of these boats would be build using the > > origami > > > > > method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ > > the > > > > > hull is build _without_ frames. > > > > > > > > > > Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces > > > > frames > > > > > for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn > > > > simply > > > > > leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you > would > > > > place > > > > > them only where needed. > > > > > > > > > > I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded > > only > > > > to > > > > > stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating > follow > > a > > > > > natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch > the > > > > > stringers, not the skin. > > > > > > > > > > In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs > > welded > > > > > onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. > On > > my > > > > > boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior > > > > > arrangements so I will add some strategical structural > frames - > > > > > > > AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of > > the > > > > > same thing really. > > > > > > > > > > There is another discussion as to the utility of creating > hard > > > > > points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design > > > that > > > > > favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to > all > > > > metal- > > > > > boats and is not specific to "origami". > > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4062|4013|2004-06-06 11:21:41|willmarsh3|Re: resources|After reading this thread I feel I should put in my $.02 worth. 1. Don't buy a larger house than you need. Many people get in trouble or hurt trying to pay too big a mortgage and don't want to admit it. Be mindful of how the culture of consumerism affects your choice of house or car. 2. Examine bank statements each month and check to make sure the bank is doing what you asked it to. If not, immediately call to fix the problem. Never assume the bank understood your instructions the first time. 3. Spend below your budget and keep savings. You'll be much less vulnerable to economic downturns, layoffs, etc. than those who don't. By living by these simple and obvious sounding rules I can spend much more time boat building and sailing than I would otherwise. Will --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Phil, > > One problem with e-mail is that it takes what would be normal spoken conversation and makes innocent comments sound more important > and confrontational than the writer intended. Thus, if I was | 4063|3915|2004-06-06 11:43:22|Courtney Thomas|Re: frames|Intriguing ! Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal origami to replace it. Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. Cordially, Courtney ge@... wrote: > Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time > in any structure subject to loads. > > ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the > section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows > framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the > stringers). > > Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with > lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can > likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames > > > >>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the >>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see >>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the >>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, >>after the shell is complete. >> Brent Swain >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >> >>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your >>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - >>>but maybe softer - to frames? >>>Gerd >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and >>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, >>>> >>thus >> >>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than >>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end >>>> >>>for >>> >>>>denting to occur. >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" >>>> >>> >>> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Gerd, >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually >>>>> >>>refer >>> >>>>to >>>> >>>>>as free-form construction methods. >>>>> >>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have >>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced >>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with >>>>> >>small >> >>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, >>>>> >>etc, >> >>>>but >>>> >>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat >>>>> >>>to >>> >>>>>flex. >>>>> >>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs >>>>> >>off >> >>>of >>> >>>>>stringers? >>>>> >>>>>- Spencer >>>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless >>>>>> >>origami >> >>>up >>> >>>>>>for some time ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group >>>>>>> >>>is >>> >>>>>the >>>>> >>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To >>>>>>> >>>me >>> >>>>>this >>>>> >>>>>>is ludicrious. >>>>>> >>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and >>>>>> >>is >> >>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together >>>>>> >>>>as "frameless >>>> >>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely >>>>>> >>>>different >>>> >>>>>>things here: >>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does >>>>>> >>>not >>> >>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor >>>>>> >>>even >>> >>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. >>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or >>>>>> >>>>stringers >>>> >>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and >>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats >>>>>> >>>without >>> >>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, >>>>>> >>>>there >>>> >>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or >>>>>> >>>to >>> >>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the >>>>>> >>>origami >>> >>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ >>>>>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. >>>>>> >>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces >>>>>> >>>>>frames >>>>> >>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn >>>>>> >>>>>simply >>>>> >>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you >>>>>> >>would >> >>>>>place >>>>> >>>>>>them only where needed. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded >>>>>> >>>only >>> >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating >>>>>> >>follow >> >>>a >>> >>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch >>>>>> >>the >> >>>>>>stringers, not the skin. >>>>>> >>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs >>>>>> >>>welded >>> >>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. >>>>>> >>On >> >>>my >>> >>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior >>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural >>>>>> >>frames - >> >>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of >>>>>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>same thing really. >>>>>> >>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating >>>>>> >>hard >> >>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design >>>>>> >>>>that >>>> >>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to >>>>>> >>all >> >>>>>metal- >>>>> >>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". >>>>>> >>>>>>Gerd >>>>>> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4064|3915|2004-06-06 14:50:20|fmichael graham|Re: frames|Courtney: Several years ago(1995), I bought a 1976 Cal 3-30. I was concerned about the years of stress that this boat had been subjected to as it had been extensively sailed/raced off of the west coast of North America, predominantly in the San Fransisco-Ensenada area, for the previous 17 to 18 years. It was explained to me by someone at Fraser Yacht Services that the only real concern would be if the hull (solid & thick) had been compromised by a grounding, collision, etc., and was "cracked through" in several closely related areas, or if the 'glass was seriously blistered. I was also told that these things could all be repaired "easily" (read:$$$$$). I was fortunate in that my hull was sound and thicker than the average 30' production boat. Still, there was the option of protecting the hull for another 30 years or more by having dynel sheathing applied. The cost of maintaining "plastic" seems, to me, to be higher than even the wood boat(less repairs but more $ per repair). That is why I find the prospect of a steel boat so attractive. Less maintenance than wood and less expensive/more easily managed repairs than 'glass. I hope I haven't tripped off the old "steel vs. aluminum" discussions, again, by omitting the alloy from my comments. Regards, Mike Courtney Thomas wrote: Intriguing ! Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal origami to replace it. Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. Cordially, Courtney ge@... wrote: > Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time > in any structure subject to loads. > > ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the > section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows > framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the > stringers). > > Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with > lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can > likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames > > > >>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the >>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see >>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the >>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, >>after the shell is complete. >> Brent Swain >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >> >>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your >>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - >>>but maybe softer - to frames? >>>Gerd >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and >>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, >>>> >>thus >> >>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than >>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end >>>> >>>for >>> >>>>denting to occur. >>>> Brent >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" >>>> >>> >>> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Gerd, >>>>> >>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually >>>>> >>>refer >>> >>>>to >>>> >>>>>as free-form construction methods. >>>>> >>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have >>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced >>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with >>>>> >>small >> >>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, >>>>> >>etc, >> >>>>but >>>> >>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat >>>>> >>>to >>> >>>>>flex. >>>>> >>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs >>>>> >>off >> >>>of >>> >>>>>stringers? >>>>> >>>>>- Spencer >>>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless >>>>>> >>origami >> >>>up >>> >>>>>>for some time ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group >>>>>>> >>>is >>> >>>>>the >>>>> >>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To >>>>>>> >>>me >>> >>>>>this >>>>> >>>>>>is ludicrious. >>>>>> >>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and >>>>>> >>is >> >>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together >>>>>> >>>>as "frameless >>>> >>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely >>>>>> >>>>different >>>> >>>>>>things here: >>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does >>>>>> >>>not >>> >>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor >>>>>> >>>even >>> >>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. >>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or >>>>>> >>>>stringers >>>> >>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and >>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats >>>>>> >>>without >>> >>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, >>>>>> >>>>there >>>> >>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or >>>>>> >>>to >>> >>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the >>>>>> >>>origami >>> >>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ >>>>>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. >>>>>> >>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces >>>>>> >>>>>frames >>>>> >>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn >>>>>> >>>>>simply >>>>> >>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you >>>>>> >>would >> >>>>>place >>>>> >>>>>>them only where needed. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded >>>>>> >>>only >>> >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating >>>>>> >>follow >> >>>a >>> >>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch >>>>>> >>the >> >>>>>>stringers, not the skin. >>>>>> >>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs >>>>>> >>>welded >>> >>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. >>>>>> >>On >> >>>my >>> >>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior >>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural >>>>>> >>frames - >> >>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of >>>>>> >>>the >>> >>>>>>same thing really. >>>>>> >>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating >>>>>> >>hard >> >>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design >>>>>> >>>>that >>>> >>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to >>>>>> >>all >> >>>>>metal- >>>>> >>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". >>>>>> >>>>>>Gerd >>>>>> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4065|3915|2004-06-06 16:34:04|Courtney Thomas|Re: frames|Thanks Michael, Enduring my sailing delay with impatience and only recently hearing of origamiboats, I bought, some years back, what to my eyes is a nautical eyeful, that permits sailing now, but hope in time to build a metal boat. I'm pleased to hear that even a poorly built/maintained plastic boat can be resuscitated. I'm not familiar with the dynel application. Any further pointers in that regard ? Cordially, Courtney fmichael graham wrote: > Courtney: > Several years ago(1995), I bought a 1976 Cal 3-30. I was concerned about the years of stress that this boat had been subjected to as it had been extensively sailed/raced off of the west coast of North America, predominantly in the San Fransisco-Ensenada area, for the previous 17 to 18 years. It was explained to me by someone at Fraser Yacht Services that the only real concern would be if the hull (solid & thick) had been compromised by a grounding, collision, etc., and was "cracked through" in several closely related areas, or if the 'glass was seriously blistered. I was also told that these things could all be repaired "easily" (read:$$$$$). I was fortunate in that my hull was sound and thicker than the average 30' production boat. Still, there was the option of protecting the hull for another 30 years or more by having dynel sheathing applied. The cost of maintaining "plastic" seems, to me, to be higher than even the wood boat(less repairs but more $ per repair). That is why I find > the prospect of a steel boat so attractive. Less maintenance than wood and less expensive/more easily managed repairs than 'glass. I hope I haven't tripped off the old "steel vs. aluminum" discussions, again, by omitting the alloy from my comments. > Regards, > Mike > > > Courtney Thomas wrote: > Intriguing ! > > Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. > > I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of > non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass > boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal > origami to replace it. > > Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability > and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. > > Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > > > ge@... wrote: > > >>Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time >>in any structure subject to loads. >> >>ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the >>section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows >>framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the >>stringers). >> >>Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with >>lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can >>likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. >> >>Greg Elliott >>http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "brentswain38" >> > >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames >> >> >> >> >>>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the >>>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see >>>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the >>>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, >>>after the shell is complete. >>>Brent Swain >>> >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your >>>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - >>>>but maybe softer - to frames? >>>>Gerd >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >>>> >>>> > wrote: > >>>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and >>>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, >>>>> >>>>> >>>thus >>> >>> >>>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than >>>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end >>>>> >>>>> >>>>for >>>> >>>> >>>>>denting to occur. >>>>>Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Gerd, >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>refer >>>> >>>> >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>as free-form construction methods. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have >>>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced >>>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>small >>> >>> >>>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>etc, >>> >>> >>>>>but >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>to >>>> >>>> >>>>>>flex. >>>>>> >>>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>off >>> >>> >>>>of >>>> >>>> >>>>>>stringers? >>>>>> >>>>>>- Spencer >>>>>> >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>origami >>> >>> >>>>up >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>for some time ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>is >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>me >>>> >>>> >>>>>>this >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>is ludicrious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>is >>> >>> >>>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>as "frameless >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>different >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>things here: >>>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>not >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>even >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. >>>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>stringers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and >>>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>without >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>there >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>to >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>origami >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>frames >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>simply >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>would >>> >>> >>>>>>place >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>them only where needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>only >>>> >>>> >>>>>>to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>follow >>> >>> >>>>a >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>>>>>>stringers, not the skin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>welded >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>On >>> >>> >>>>my >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior >>>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>frames - >>> >>> >>>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>same thing really. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>hard >>> >>> >>>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>all >>> >>> >>>>>>metal- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Gerd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4066|3915|2004-06-06 16:44:01|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: frames|An older, heavy FG hull is usually a great cruising hull. FG does age, but when FG was first introduced it was not well understood, and the scantlings for wood were used, which provides a very large safety factor in older FG yachts. Unless she has been badly abused she will give you many years of reliable service, and probably outlive many of the newer boats. If the rest of the boat is reasonably sound I'd outfit that boat and go without hesitation. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: frames > Intriguing ! > > Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. > > I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of > non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass > boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal > origami to replace it. > > Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability > and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. > > Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > > > ge@... wrote: > > > Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time > > in any structure subject to loads. > > > > ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the > > section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows > > framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the > > stringers). > > > > Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with > > lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can > > likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames > > > > > > > >>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the > >>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see > >>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the > >>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, > >>after the shell is complete. > >> Brent Swain > >> > >> > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > >> > >>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your > >>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - > >>>but maybe softer - to frames? > >>>Gerd > >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and > >>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, > >>>> > >>thus > >> > >>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than > >>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end > >>>> > >>>for > >>> > >>>>denting to occur. > >>>> Brent > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Gerd, > >>>>> > >>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually > >>>>> > >>>refer > >>> > >>>>to > >>>> > >>>>>as free-form construction methods. > >>>>> > >>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have > >>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced > >>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with > >>>>> > >>small > >> > >>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, > >>>>> > >>etc, > >> > >>>>but > >>>> > >>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat > >>>>> > >>>to > >>> > >>>>>flex. > >>>>> > >>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs > >>>>> > >>off > >> > >>>of > >>> > >>>>>stringers? > >>>>> > >>>>>- Spencer > >>>>> > >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless > >>>>>> > >>origami > >> > >>>up > >>> > >>>>>>for some time ;-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group > >>>>>>> > >>>is > >>> > >>>>>the > >>>>> > >>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To > >>>>>>> > >>>me > >>> > >>>>>this > >>>>> > >>>>>>is ludicrious. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and > >>>>>> > >>is > >> > >>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together > >>>>>> > >>>>as "frameless > >>>> > >>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely > >>>>>> > >>>>different > >>>> > >>>>>>things here: > >>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does > >>>>>> > >>>not > >>> > >>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor > >>>>>> > >>>even > >>> > >>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. > >>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or > >>>>>> > >>>>stringers > >>>> > >>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and > >>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats > >>>>>> > >>>without > >>> > >>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, > >>>>>> > >>>>there > >>>> > >>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or > >>>>>> > >>>to > >>> > >>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the > >>>>>> > >>>origami > >>> > >>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ > >>>>>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces > >>>>>> > >>>>>frames > >>>>> > >>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn > >>>>>> > >>>>>simply > >>>>> > >>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you > >>>>>> > >>would > >> > >>>>>place > >>>>> > >>>>>>them only where needed. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded > >>>>>> > >>>only > >>> > >>>>>to > >>>>> > >>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating > >>>>>> > >>follow > >> > >>>a > >>> > >>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch > >>>>>> > >>the > >> > >>>>>>stringers, not the skin. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs > >>>>>> > >>>welded > >>> > >>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. > >>>>>> > >>On > >> > >>>my > >>> > >>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior > >>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural > >>>>>> > >>frames - > >> > >>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of > >>>>>> > >>>the > >>> > >>>>>>same thing really. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating > >>>>>> > >>hard > >> > >>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design > >>>>>> > >>>>that > >>>> > >>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to > >>>>>> > >>all > >> > >>>>>metal- > >>>>> > >>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Gerd > >>>>>> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4067|3915|2004-06-06 17:50:16|fmichael graham|Re: frames|Courtney: I would recommend you talk to those in the fibreglass/boat repair trade about dynel. I do not have intimate knowledge of it's application. I know that it has been used on fibreglass & wood boats and is supposed to be very long-lasting, impervious to moisture, & quite expensive. Who knows, the sale of your Rhodes may pay for your materials to build your "steel dream". I would suggest checking out your local marinas & talking to the people whom are re-fitting their FRP boat in the works yard. Mike Courtney Thomas wrote: Thanks Michael, Enduring my sailing delay with impatience and only recently hearing of origamiboats, I bought, some years back, what to my eyes is a nautical eyeful, that permits sailing now, but hope in time to build a metal boat. I'm pleased to hear that even a poorly built/maintained plastic boat can be resuscitated. I'm not familiar with the dynel application. Any further pointers in that regard ? Cordially, Courtney fmichael graham wrote: > Courtney: > Several years ago(1995), I bought a 1976 Cal 3-30. I was concerned about the years of stress that this boat had been subjected to as it had been extensively sailed/raced off of the west coast of North America, predominantly in the San Fransisco-Ensenada area, for the previous 17 to 18 years. It was explained to me by someone at Fraser Yacht Services that the only real concern would be if the hull (solid & thick) had been compromised by a grounding, collision, etc., and was "cracked through" in several closely related areas, or if the 'glass was seriously blistered. I was also told that these things could all be repaired "easily" (read:$$$$$). I was fortunate in that my hull was sound and thicker than the average 30' production boat. Still, there was the option of protecting the hull for another 30 years or more by having dynel sheathing applied. The cost of maintaining "plastic" seems, to me, to be higher than even the wood boat(less repairs but more $ per repair). That is why I find > the prospect of a steel boat so attractive. Less maintenance than wood and less expensive/more easily managed repairs than 'glass. I hope I haven't tripped off the old "steel vs. aluminum" discussions, again, by omitting the alloy from my comments. > Regards, > Mike > > > Courtney Thomas wrote: > Intriguing ! > > Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. > > I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of > non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass > boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal > origami to replace it. > > Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability > and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. > > Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > > > ge@... wrote: > > >>Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time >>in any structure subject to loads. >> >>ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the >>section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows >>framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the >>stringers). >> >>Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with >>lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can >>likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. >> >>Greg Elliott >>http://www.origamimagic.com >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "brentswain38" >> > >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames >> >> >> >> >>>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the >>>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see >>>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the >>>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, >>>after the shell is complete. >>>Brent Swain >>> >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your >>>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - >>>>but maybe softer - to frames? >>>>Gerd >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >>>> >>>> > wrote: > >>>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and >>>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, >>>>> >>>>> >>>thus >>> >>> >>>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than >>>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end >>>>> >>>>> >>>>for >>>> >>>> >>>>>denting to occur. >>>>>Brent >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Gerd, >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>refer >>>> >>>> >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>as free-form construction methods. >>>>>> >>>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have >>>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced >>>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>small >>> >>> >>>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>etc, >>> >>> >>>>>but >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>to >>>> >>>> >>>>>>flex. >>>>>> >>>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>off >>> >>> >>>>of >>>> >>>> >>>>>>stringers? >>>>>> >>>>>>- Spencer >>>>>> >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>origami >>> >>> >>>>up >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>for some time ;-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>is >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>me >>>> >>>> >>>>>>this >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>is ludicrious. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>is >>> >>> >>>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>as "frameless >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>different >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>things here: >>>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>not >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>even >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. >>>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>stringers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and >>>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>without >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>there >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>to >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>origami >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>frames >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>simply >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>would >>> >>> >>>>>>place >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>them only where needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>only >>>> >>>> >>>>>>to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>follow >>> >>> >>>>a >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>>>>>>stringers, not the skin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>welded >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>On >>> >>> >>>>my >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior >>>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>frames - >>> >>> >>>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>same thing really. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>hard >>> >>> >>>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>all >>> >>> >>>>>>metal- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Gerd >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4068|3915|2004-06-06 21:00:57|RON COOK|Re: frames|Hi Courtney, I'm fairly new to the group. I design and build fiberglass and composite boats and parts. Age alone even counting a vigorous sailing life should not have worn out your boat. The early fiberglass boats where so over built by today's standards that fatigue really would not play into it. Plus the resins used then where much better than the production resins used today (because of environmental reasons). If you do repairs to your boat do not use dynel. Dynel's elastic qualities are not compatible with polyester resins. The resin would fail before the dynel stretched enough to start to carry the load. If you do make repairs to your boat fined someone in your area legitimately qualified to guide you in the choice of materials and their application. Your boat probably will out last all of us! By all means build an origami boat, building stuff is rewarding and great fun. My next boat will not be fiberglass composite (frozen snot) but will be metal. For me my choice is aluminum. I am currently without a sail boat so I am envious of you frozen snot and all. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: frames > Thanks Michael, > > Enduring my sailing delay with impatience and only recently hearing of > origamiboats, I bought, some years back, what to my eyes is a nautical > eyeful, that permits sailing now, but hope in time to build a metal boat. > > I'm pleased to hear that even a poorly built/maintained plastic boat can > be resuscitated. I'm not familiar with the dynel application. > > Any further pointers in that regard ? > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > > > fmichael graham wrote: > > > Courtney: > > Several years ago(1995), I bought a 1976 Cal 3-30. I was concerned about the years of stress that this boat had been subjected to as it had been extensively sailed/raced off of the west coast of North America, predominantly in the San Fransisco-Ensenada area, for the previous 17 to 18 years. It was explained to me by someone at Fraser Yacht Services that the only real concern would be if the hull (solid & thick) had been compromised by a grounding, collision, etc., and was "cracked through" in several closely related areas, or if the 'glass was seriously blistered. I was also told that these things could all be repaired "easily" (read:$$$$$). I was fortunate in that my hull was sound and thicker than the average 30' production boat. Still, there was the option of protecting the hull for another 30 years or more by having dynel sheathing applied. The cost of maintaining "plastic" seems, to me, to be higher than even the wood boat(less repairs but more $ per repair). That is > why I find > > the prospect of a steel boat so attractive. Less maintenance than wood and less expensive/more easily managed repairs than 'glass. I hope I haven't tripped off the old "steel vs. aluminum" discussions, again, by omitting the alloy from my comments. > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > Courtney Thomas wrote: > > Intriguing ! > > > > Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. > > > > I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of > > non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass > > boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal > > origami to replace it. > > > > Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability > > and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. > > > > Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. > > > > Cordially, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > ge@... wrote: > > > > > >>Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time > >>in any structure subject to loads. > >> > >>ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the > >>section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows > >>framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the > >>stringers). > >> > >>Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with > >>lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths has a calculation for transverse only framing that can > >>likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. > >> > >>Greg Elliott > >>http://www.origamimagic.com > >> > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "brentswain38" > >> > > > >>To: > >>Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM > >>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the > >>>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see > >>>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the > >>>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, > >>>after the shell is complete. > >>>Brent Swain > >>> > >>> > >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your > >>>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - > >>>>but maybe softer - to frames? > >>>>Gerd > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > >>>> > >>>> > > wrote: > > > >>>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and > >>>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>thus > >>> > >>> > >>>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than > >>>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>for > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>denting to occur. > >>>>>Brent > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>>>wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Gerd, > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>refer > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>as free-form construction methods. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have > >>>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced > >>>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>small > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>etc, > >>> > >>> > >>>>>but > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>to > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>flex. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>off > >>> > >>> > >>>>of > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>stringers? > >>>>>> > >>>>>>- Spencer > >>>>>> > >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>origami > >>> > >>> > >>>>up > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>for some time ;-) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>is > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>me > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>this > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>is ludicrious. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>is > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>as "frameless > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>different > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>things here: > >>>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>not > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>even > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. > >>>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>stringers > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and > >>>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>without > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>there > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>to > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>origami > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>frames > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>simply > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>would > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>place > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>them only where needed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>only > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>to > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>follow > >>> > >>> > >>>>a > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>the > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>stringers, not the skin. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>welded > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>On > >>> > >>> > >>>>my > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior > >>>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>frames - > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>the > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>>same thing really. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>hard > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>that > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>all > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>metal- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Gerd > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4069|3915|2004-06-06 21:10:41|Ben Tucker|Re: frames, and alloy/steel|Hello Courtney, A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck in straight away. An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' leaving only comercial yards at high expense. Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the parent metal as filler rod. cheers Ben http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm| 4070|3915|2004-06-06 23:34:55|Courtney Thomas|Re: frames|Ron, Thanks for joining in.... I don't at all regard my boat as worn out but rather have been unable to locate, if it exists, information regarding fiberglass durability and consequently was hopeful that someone in the group might be aware of new information in that regard. I have thought awhile about the merits of various boat building materials and think I'm unbiased, though clearly for some uses certain materials seem to be more appropriate, e.g. metal in polar regions. If I had unlimited money I think I'd go with a triaxial S-glass boat with epoxy resin, as I read that it's stronger and lighter than steel plus no rust; and, there are also other objections to steel but then no material is without it's problems of course. I too in my circumstances would probably opt for aluminum if I had to build a boat now, but have only recently acquired a welder capable of the job, am not TIG proficient, and am presently consumed with modifying a tractor-trailer rig for hauling and winter storage for my present boat. So.....I'm grateful that I'm able to sail now while mulling over preservation of what I've got, as well as enjoying considering other possible future choices. I'd enjoy hearing your plans and thoughts in these regards, Keep in touch, Courtney RON COOK wrote: > Hi Courtney, > > I'm fairly new to the group. I design and build fiberglass and composite > boats and parts. Age alone even counting a vigorous sailing life should not > have worn out your boat. The early fiberglass boats where so over built by > today's standards that fatigue really would not play into it. Plus the > resins used then where much better than the production resins used today > (because of environmental reasons). > > If you do repairs to your boat do not use dynel. Dynel's elastic qualities > are not compatible with polyester resins. The resin would fail before the > dynel stretched enough to start to carry the load. If you do make repairs to > your boat fined someone in your area legitimately qualified to guide you in > the choice of materials and their application. > > Your boat probably will out last all of us! > > By all means build an origami boat, building stuff is rewarding and great > fun. My next boat will not be fiberglass composite (frozen snot) but will be > metal. For me my choice is aluminum. > > I am currently without a sail boat so I am envious of you frozen snot and > all. > > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: frames > > > >>Thanks Michael, >> >>Enduring my sailing delay with impatience and only recently hearing of >>origamiboats, I bought, some years back, what to my eyes is a nautical >>eyeful, that permits sailing now, but hope in time to build a metal boat. >> >>I'm pleased to hear that even a poorly built/maintained plastic boat can >>be resuscitated. I'm not familiar with the dynel application. >> >>Any further pointers in that regard ? >> >>Cordially, >> >>Courtney >> >> >> >>fmichael graham wrote: >> >> >>>Courtney: >>>Several years ago(1995), I bought a 1976 Cal 3-30. I was concerned about >>> > the years of stress that this boat had been subjected to as it had been > extensively sailed/raced off of the west coast of North America, > predominantly in the San Fransisco-Ensenada area, for the previous 17 to 18 > years. It was explained to me by someone at Fraser Yacht Services that the > only real concern would be if the hull (solid & thick) had been compromised > by a grounding, collision, etc., and was "cracked through" in several > closely related areas, or if the 'glass was seriously blistered. I was also > told that these things could all be repaired "easily" (read:$$$$$). I was > fortunate in that my hull was sound and thicker than the average 30' > production boat. Still, there was the option of protecting the hull for > another 30 years or more by having dynel sheathing applied. The cost of > maintaining "plastic" seems, to me, to be higher than even the wood > boat(less repairs but more $ per repair). That is > >>why I find >> >>> the prospect of a steel boat so attractive. Less maintenance than wood >>> > and less expensive/more easily managed repairs than 'glass. I hope I haven't > tripped off the old "steel vs. aluminum" discussions, again, by omitting the > alloy from my comments. > >>>Regards, >>>Mike >>> >>> >>>Courtney Thomas wrote: >>>Intriguing ! >>> >>>Greg, is there any information yet on age-related fatigue of fiberglass. >>> >>>I have an older Rhodes design that reputedly has over an inch of >>>non-cored fiberglass in the hull [one of the first production fiberglass >>>boats, i.e. built in the Fifties], though hope in time to build a metal >>>origami to replace it. >>> >>>Obviously with any boat this age I'd be concerned about it's durability >>>and would be much happier knowing "where I am" in this regard. >>> >>>Anyway....thanks for all your input in this, as well as other, matters. >>> >>>Cordially, >>> >>>Courtney >>> >>> >>> >>>ge@... wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Historical evidence for the hulls in both alloy and steel shows the >>>> > hulls are extremely strong. However, fatigue occurs over time > >>>>in any structure subject to loads. >>>> >>>>ABS and similar organizations publish standards for small craft which >>>> > can be adapted to origami. Normally these are based on the > >>>>section modulus (SM) - which is a calculation of the ability of a >>>> > structure to resists deformation based on its shape. ABS allows > >>>>framing to be either transverse or longitudinal. In an origami hull, >>>> > without transverse framing, the framing is longitudinal (the > >>>>stringers). >>>> >>>>Another way to look at the problem is simply to think of an origami hull >>>> > as a very short (10 feet), very beamy boat (30 feet), with > >>>>lots of transverse framing, turned sideways. D. Gerr in Boat Strengths >>>> > has a calculation for transverse only framing that can > >>>>likely be readily adapted to origami using this approach, to arrive at a >>>> > skin thickness and stringer schedule to match. > >>>>Greg Elliott >>>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>> >>>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: "brentswain38" >>>> >>>> >>>>To: >>>>Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 11:25 AM >>>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Bulkheads on tabs are structurallly rather insignificant, as the >>>>>hull is phenomenally strong in transverse directions. You can see >>>>>this if you try to crank up a jack on the end of a post inside the >>>>>hull in a diagonal direction ,ie. from chine to hull deck joint, >>>>>after the shell is complete. >>>>>Brent Swain >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I understand your point, I was just wondering if you consider your >>>>>>bulkheads on tabs to stringers as structural transverses, similar - >>>>>>but maybe softer - to frames? >>>>>>Gerd >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>>>Transverse framiing increases the dammage from rocks, docks and >>>>>>>collisions by giving plating a hard point to stretch against, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>thus >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>increasing the likelihood of holing.Plating adds far less than >>>>>>>longitudinals which are arcs ,which have to be compressed on end >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>for >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>denting to occur. >>>>>>>Brent >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Gerd, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Thanks for clearing that up for me. That is what I usually >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>refer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>as free-form construction methods. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think that only welding to the stringers works when you have >>>>>>>>adaquate plate thickness to take local loads, or closely spaced >>>>>>>>stringers. As I mentioned before, I think that boats with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>small >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>panels take less damage from groundings, docks, collisions, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>etc, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>but >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>there is definitely something to be said for allowing the boat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>flex. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>How are the bulkheads made watertight if only welded to tabs >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>off >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>of >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>stringers? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>- Spencer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Ha! I was wating to bring the subject of the frameless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>origami >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>up >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>for some time ;-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>What concerns me with some of the discussions in this group >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>notion that origami boats don't need internal framing. To >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>me >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>this >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>is ludicrious. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Actually this is a misconception in many minds I think, and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>really a bit misleading if always mentioned together >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>as "frameless >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>origami" hull, as we are really talking about 2 entirely >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>different >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>things here: >>>>>>>>>1) Origami is a frameless _assembly_ method in that it does >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>not >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>require frames to set up the hull, nor jig nor supports nor >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>even >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>ground etc... thus reducing cost and labour significantly. >>>>>>>>>2) Metal boats may be designed with or without frames or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>stringers >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>or whatever, this is just a design choice for transverse and >>>>>>>>>longitudinal support & structuring. There are metal boats >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>without >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>any apparent structure, there are boats with just stringers, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>there >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>are boats with skins welded to only frames, only stringers or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>both... If any of these boats would be build using the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>origami >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>method, then the structure as designed would be added _after_ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>hull is build _without_ frames. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Finally, in some assembly methods you _need_ regularly spaces >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>frames >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>for construction if you want to produce a fair hull, and tehn >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>simply >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>leave them in - in origami frames my be less because you >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>would >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>place >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>them only where needed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think we all agree by now that hull-skins should be welded >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>only >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>stringers, not to frames, because that lets the plating >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>follow >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>natural curve - if there are frames, these will only touch >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>stringers, not the skin. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>In the BS designs for example, bulkheads are fixed to tabs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>welded >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>onto stringers and - I do believe - play a structural role. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>On >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>my >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>boat I have a thinner skin (3mm) and very light interior >>>>>>>>>arrangements so I will add some strategical structural >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>frames - >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>AFTER the hull is build. These are just different options of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>same thing really. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>There is another discussion as to the utility of creating >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>hard >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>points in form of frames as opposed to a more flexible design >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>favors longitudinal structure - but that really applies to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>all >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>metal- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>boats and is not specific to "origami". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Gerd >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >>-- >>s/v Mutiny >>Rhodes Bounty II >>lying Oriental, NC >>WDB5619 >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4071|3915|2004-06-06 23:56:29|Courtney Thomas|Re: frames, and alloy/steel|Ben, Good to hear from you ! I have the Du Plessis book but do appreciate the reference. I'd appreciate a little elaboration regarding your caveat of "watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads". This boat has not been barrier-coated but I'm considering it. It has spent most of it's life in New England and hauled about half the year which I assume is a positive vis-a-vis melting in some South Florida marina. I find that I have so much to do overall that allowing it to sit a few months after hauling, before working on the hull..... is no problem. Fortunately I have enough space that I don't have to fool with boat yards but agree with you that I'd prefer an alloy boat if I had to build a boat today. Are you in NZ ? I've just discovered Kauri boats and could have happily abandoned considering alloy or fiberglass,... if I'd gotten a shot at one of those. Fascinating boats. I've also recently heard of the technique of using the base metal's strips as filler rod in building alloy boats and would really appreciate any further information on this technique. I've only recently gotten TIG capability, not proficiency though :-) and want to learn all about this. Cordially, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis > sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a > big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch > any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, > more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by > even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as > osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff > only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. > > The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul > out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before > tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck > in straight away. > > An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina > friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words > grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' > leaving only comercial yards at high expense. > > Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the > scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very > thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot > workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are > swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the > french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the > parent metal as filler rod. > > cheers > > Ben > > > http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp > http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm > http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4072|4013|2004-06-07 09:35:01|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: resources|This lawyer talk reminds me of question that I have had for a long time. Can a lawyer tell who has assets and who does not, very easily? What is the source of this information? Does it come from lawyers? sort of like a an enemy spy in the camp? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4073|3915|2004-06-07 13:10:13|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Please Stick to the point|I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane --- Courtney Thomas wrote: --------------------------------- Ben, Good to hear from you ! I have the Du Plessis book but do appreciate the reference. I'd appreciate a little elaboration regarding your caveat of "watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads". This boat has not been barrier-coated but I'm considering it. It has spent most of it's life in New England and hauled about half the year which I assume is a positive vis-a-vis melting in some South Florida marina. I find that I have so much to do overall that allowing it to sit a few months after hauling, before working on the hull..... is no problem. Fortunately I have enough space that I don't have to fool with boat yards but agree with you that I'd prefer an alloy boat if I had to build a boat today. Are you in NZ ? I've just discovered Kauri boats and could have happily abandoned considering alloy or fiberglass,... if I'd gotten a shot at one of those. Fascinating boats. I've also recently heard of the technique of using the base metal's strips as filler rod in building alloy boats and would really appreciate any further information on this technique. I've only recently gotten TIG capability, not proficiency though :-) and want to learn all about this. Cordially, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis > sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a > big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch > any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, > more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by > even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as > osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff > only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. > > The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul > out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before > tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck > in straight away. > > An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina > friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words > grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' > leaving only comercial yards at high expense. > > Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the > scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very > thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot > workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are > swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the > french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the > parent metal as filler rod. > > cheers > > Ben > > > http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp > http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm > http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4074|4074|2004-06-07 13:41:07|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|building a "U" shaped bow|Our boats have different bow sections than is traditional in origami. How is it done? Take a piece of regular A4 or 8.5x11 paper and hold it, long axis vertical. Draw a point at the center. Now, draw a "Y" on the page, from the top corners, diagonal to the center, and from the center vertically down to the bottom of the page in the middle. sort of like this. -------- |\ /| | \ / | | \ / | | | | | | | -------- Cut along the two diagonals to the center, to remove the "V." at the top of the page. Throw the small "V." shaped piece away. Bring the remaining two sides of the "Y" together, and tape them so that you have a cone. The two side of the "Y" are the bow, and the line drawn down the center of the page - the tail of the "Y" - is the centerline between the two halves of your origami boat. Look at this bow in section and you will see that it is "U" shaped, with the tightest radius at the base of the bow, radiating aft. How do you achieve this "U" when building a boat? Take two sheets of metal and lay them side by side, as though they were the halves of the hull. Tack lightly down the centerline, and pull the two halves up and together from the outside edges. You will get a "V". Now, lay the two sheets flat again, and weld the centerline 100%. Again pull the two sides up and together. You will get a "U. We use a variation of this technique to form the distinctive sections in our boats. We treat the bow and stern of the boat as though they were extra chines. We prevent the centerline from simply folding into a "V", and adjust the patterns to take advantage of this. When building a "U" shaped bow section, the bow itself is simply another dart to be pulled together. The forefoot of the hull is the cone that radiates outwards from the chine end. However, it radiates inwards, rather than outwards, allowing a dramatic improvement in the ability to control the shape of an origami hull. By controlling the centerline while pulling the hull together, we move the point of maximum curvature in the hull away from the chine ends, downwards toward the centerline, and outwards to the ends of the boat. This increases the living space inside the boats, eliminates knuckles, and moves the buoyancy away from the center of the boat, towards the ends where it will do the most good. It gives the boat a more rounded appearance, improving the overall fairness of the hull, and corrects for the loss of prismatic coefficient that result from origami construction. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com| 4075|4013|2004-06-07 13:43:12|brentswain38|Re: resources|When people ask me to sign contracts I tell them that if they don't trust me , they should hire someone else for the job. I only work with the owner so they can see what's being done , and by the hour so they have an incentive to keep it simple. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Hi Greg; > We have been chatting long enough to understand what the other means. My point about > the $24k wan't clear, it actually set me back 5 years. I also ended up doing things with the > house that I am now going back and doing the way I originally wanted them done. I love > doing sh%t twice. > > I agree about contracts, but I have seen the contract my friend had with the bank. It clearly > stated that no monies were to be extended without expressed written permission. Did the > judge care? nope. I have been learning from a long series of expensive lessons, never > trust a lawyer (The lawyer I hired to do my divorce two years ago is currently in jail) even if > you have some in plain language they will twist it to mean what they need it too. > Contracts are unnecessary between honest peopel other than to state what each ones > responibilities are, a dishonest person will screw you dispite what the contracts say. > > I am lucky in several ways, I was able to keep the farm in the divorce. I have five > beautiful and healthy children and a loving partner. Although the land I own being heavy > clay is unsuitable for subdivision and building. I am going alter that by hauling in loads of > sand with a dump trailer and my small truck, It will take a while but eventualy it will be > done. Instead of making a small profit from selling building lots, after paying the taxes > and interst on the loan I think I am losing money. I am going to build some houses and > sell them off that way, I can throw a stick built house together in a few months, timber > frames take me a little longer. > > I have a friend who was a multi billionaire, he told me once he never made a dime on land, > he made more money selling worms than he did with real estate. I should have listened. > Regards > Phil | 4076|4074|2004-06-07 13:56:44|brentswain38|Re: building a "U" shaped bow|Greg Using the same trick aft gives you a wine glass transom, something that was once considered extremely difficult in metal. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Our boats have different bow sections than is traditional in origami. How is it done? > > Take a piece of regular A4 or 8.5x11 paper and hold it, long axis vertical. Draw a point at the center. Now, draw a "Y" on the > page, from the top corners, diagonal to the center, and from the center vertically down to the bottom of the page in the middle. > > sort of like this. > > -------- > |\ /| > | \ / | > | \ / | > | | | > | | | > -------- > > Cut along the two diagonals to the center, to remove the "V." at the top of the page. Throw the small "V." shaped piece away. > > Bring the remaining two sides of the "Y" together, and tape them so that you have a cone. The two side of the "Y" are the bow, and > the line drawn down the center of the page - the tail of the "Y" - is the centerline between the two halves of your origami boat. > Look at this bow in section and you will see that it is "U" shaped, with the tightest radius at the base of the bow, radiating aft. > > How do you achieve this "U" when building a boat? Take two sheets of metal and lay them side by side, as though they were the > halves of the hull. Tack lightly down the centerline, and pull the two halves up and together from the outside edges. You will get > a "V". Now, lay the two sheets flat again, and weld the centerline 100%. Again pull the two sides up and together. You will get a > "U. > > We use a variation of this technique to form the distinctive sections in our boats. We treat the bow and stern of the boat as > though they were extra chines. We prevent the centerline from simply folding into a "V", and adjust the patterns to take advantage > of this. > > When building a "U" shaped bow section, the bow itself is simply another dart to be pulled together. The forefoot of the hull is > the cone that radiates outwards from the chine end. However, it radiates inwards, rather than outwards, allowing a dramatic > improvement in the ability to control the shape of an origami hull. > > By controlling the centerline while pulling the hull together, we move the point of maximum curvature in the hull away from the > chine ends, downwards toward the centerline, and outwards to the ends of the boat. This increases the living space inside the > boats, eliminates knuckles, and moves the buoyancy away from the center of the boat, towards the ends where it will do the most > good. > > It gives the boat a more rounded appearance, improving the overall fairness of the hull, and corrects for the loss of prismatic > coefficient that result from origami construction. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com | 4077|3977|2004-06-07 13:59:54|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|Anyone have any recomendations on where to find used tanks that we can check on prices for ones that might be suitable to adapt to a hull? Scott I agree brent, I'm not sure why it hasn't been done much before. You would think that a tank designed to withstand it's own weight and the weight of its contents would but more than strong enough to support its mostly empty weight floating in the water. :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Ongolo said it well when he said that all new ideas go thru threee > stages. First , it's ridiculed. Second , it's violently opposed. > Third, it's self evident.I've always been surprised that old tanks > aren't used more often in the way you describe. > Brent > | 4078|3977|2004-06-07 14:04:05|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|I would love to see this.. When yo say H pillar what do you mean. I'm not familar with that. (is it just a h section I beam?) I have thought about the tanks that are used to transport liquids from gas to milk on the highways. Some of them are fair sized. Not sure what the diameter of them is. Maybe also tanks designed as tanker cars on railroads. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Scott I have visited a elderly man who cannot be stopped from dreaming and doing . > he commenced last year his "barge project " and it is taking shape I may send a photo soon . > it has a h pillar for a keel, a box welded inside the h for cooling his marine lister and the hull surprise surprise is a ex petrol tanker all 4 mill thick beautifully rolled and the seams seem to be swaged and welded for a good leak free joint . there is hope yet. denis | 4079|3977|2004-06-07 14:15:39|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|I think that this would be hard to cost unless you did it from scratch with new metal. The tanks would be a substantial part of it and you might pick them up used surplus or ex military surpluss really cheap or have to buy them used on the market for a premium. Then there is the cost of transportation to your location. Also a not inconsiderable cost might be treating the tanks or cleaning them depending on what the contents had been. There are a lot of variables that I have no clue as to what even the price range would be. I think that this would be one of those killer projects if all the moons lined up in the right order at the right time for you. You just need to be in the right place at the right time for the tanks and for having a place you could put it together near the water. This would not be a project you could move overland once it was built. It would need to just be slid into the water. Maybe you could do each hull independently and truck them to the water or near it to put the bridgedeck on it. however all that said i think that if everything smiled at you maybe you could get the bare hulls and bridgedeck welded together and in the water for around 20,000 k US.... Maybe..... I know that for every thing i have considered I have missed two other things that will need to be done that I havent considered. scott -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Phillips wrote: > "Happy are those who dream their Dreams, but truly happy are those who are prepared to pay the price to make them come true." > > C'mon Scott. Go for it, mate. How about an initial rough costing? > > Jim. > Brisbane, Australia. > > > audeojude wrote: > lol but to get to that point you have to have a dreamer :) then you > have to have a plan :) then you have to have resources to implement > the plan. Then you have to implement it. Then you have to use it to > prove that your not crazy.. then you get to rub everyones face in it :))) > > doesn't it suck that most dreamers don't have the resources :) > scott > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" > wrote: > > All good ideas start out with this reaction from people. First you hear > > that's a "stupid idea", then they say "it can't be done", after that > you get > > "no one will buy it" and to top it off, everyone says it was obvious > to them > > after the fact. > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > >From: "audeojude" > > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran > > >Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:20:22 -0000 > > > > > >Personally I think it is just mental enertia at work. People like > > >things and are comfortable with things that are familiar and resist > > >change in general. I have run into it all my life as I tend to in some > > >ways think outside the box. In others I probably have my own enertia > > >going on. :) I just try to be aware of it when it happens. I bet the > > >firts person to build a metal boat got laughed out of the bar :) lol > > > > > >i mean everyone knows that metal is heavier than water :) It wont > float. > > > > > >scott > > > > > >audeojude > > > > > > > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > Sounds like a reasonable idea . It looks like you've done your > > > > homework. Could it be possible that the cynics are selling real > > > > estate, or trying to justify their own real estate debts? > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > > > > wrote: > > > > > I have thought about a steel catamaran concept before but it needs > > > > to > > > > > be big to get over the weight penalty. > > > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > > > I came up with a rough design using 30,000 gallon tanks of the > kind > > > > > they store propane and natural gas in. I will copy some of the > > > > ideas I > > > > > have emailed others about for this here and see what you think. :) > > > > > > > > > > This will be alittle disjointed as I'm copying portions of emails > > > > that > > > > > I have previously explored the concept in. I have uploaded the > > > > images > > > > > i created for the design to a new folder in the files section > called > > > > > steel catamaran > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is the begining of the idea > > > > > > > > > > My goal with my design isn't for a boat to sail on a > > > > > regular basis but a home to move. with living space > > > > > and work shop space. Industrial quality finish as > > > > > opposed to yacht finih. As Indistructable as I can > > > > > build it. It would have full size power plants and > > > > > large capacity fuel tanks. You could jack it up out of > > > > > the water (as much as 10 feet out of the water > > > > > if needed) for extended periods of time and live that > > > > > way and use it as a base station to explore an area in > > > > > with a smaller say 20 foot aux boat. Any of the 4 to 6 > > > > > steel legs (spuds) in the up position could be used as masts > > > > > for large junk rig sails. I would expect that it would > > > > > be slow. In the 5 to 7 knot range > > > > > > > > > > The steel catamaran barge concept is just that a concept. I'm not > > > > > trying to prove it can't be done :) lots of people > > > > > have said that already. But I haven't seen any > > > > > referances to people doing it and failing either. Or > > > > > doing it and it being unusable. I'm trying to be > > > > > innovative and prove that it can be done. The exercise > > > > > in and of itself is worth the time and effort. :) If > > > > > no one tilted at windmills where would the world be? > > > > > I'm trying to find a way to make it work. I'm not > > > > > going to spend money on it unless on paper I can make > > > > > it work both technically and cost wise. > > > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why it is automatically > > > > > assumed that it is nuts to do? We build very heavy and > > > > > slow monos all the time. Multihulls are light and fast > > > > > and give more space. But what if you built heavy > > > > > multihull. You lose speed. Ok, so what! If you can > > > > > build a heavy multi hull in significantly less time > > > > > and for less cost and you trade that for speed is that > > > > > an ok trade? Multihull people then say "but it can > > > > > sink since it isnt foam and glass". Well mono's sink > > > > > all the time. Big multi with each hull broke up into > > > > > at least 4 compartments that can be entirely sealed > > > > > with dogging doors both entry and going from > > > > > compartment to compartment would be hell to sink > > > > > compared to most monos. > > > > > > > > > > I looked up those propane tanks. a 30,000 gallon tank > > > > > is 9.5 ft in diameter, 64 ft long. used I have seen > > > > > price ranges from 3,000 to 15,000 dollars. I don't > > > > > have weight on it yet. They probably are excedingly > > > > > heavy since they are specked to safely contain 250lbs > > > > > per square inch of pressure. > > > > > > > > > > what if it could be done? how about three of those 64 > > > > > foot tanks tied together. Forget about building a > > > > > bridge deck all together. Just those three tanks > > > > > contains approx 960 sqft of floor space assuming that > > > > > you build a interior deck where you have 5 ft of width > > > > > between the outer walls of the tank. A lot of your > > > > > mecanicals and tanks will fit under that with big > > > > > access hatches to give easy access. Then build three > > > > > or four 5 ft wide cat walks along the top of the beams > > > > > connecting the three hulls and put in lots of webbing > > > > > between those. you've got a huge flat very low windage > > > > > area now. Mabye build one small pilot cabin on the > > > > > center hull 2/3 of the way to the front to pilot from. > > > > > > > > > > I think for my application that steel would be the > > > > > best material. I wouldnt be running from bad weather. > > > > > but rather just act as raft if caught. 64 x 30 is hard > > > > > to tip. probably have several dagger boards for keel > > > > > and just pull them up and just have u-shaped or half > > > > > round hulls in water. should act as very stable raft. > > > > > Just design it so that there are many sealed > > > > > compartments and all designed to survive large waves > > > > > breaking over it for worst case. should have > > > > > relatively shallow draft. Under 4 ft. near land run it > > > > > into shallow water, river, marsh or other sheltered > > > > > place and lift hull out of water so that it acts like > > > > > a very tough house on pilings. water goes under it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ok next email expands on details a bit more as we worked on idea > > > > > > > > > > being able to lift the boat up out of the water on a > > > > > seriously stable leg system has several advantages. > > > > > 1. forget dry dock costs. You can go somewhere with > > > > > even a mild tidal range and get her totally out of the > > > > > water and easily accessable to 100% of the hull for > > > > > maintenance. even if no tidal range you could lift her > > > > > out of the water enough to get a dinghy under her and > > > > > do maintenance. > > > > > 2. if you lift her out of the water for large portions > > > > > of the year as you are based somewhere and operate out > > > > > of your smaller tender then your periods between > > > > > repainting the hull will be greatly extended. > > > > > 3. storms will be less of a threat when not at sea as > > > > > you can lift her above the storm surge. she will big > > > > > and heavy enough to be stable on the legs at this size > > > > > also in bad winds. (this part needs some numbers run > > > > > but I think it is a reasonable assumption up front) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thats it exactly a sail assited motorraft or a motor > > > > > assited sailing raft :) lol but yes that is the idea. > > > > > Its a home that moves on the water. > > > > > > > > > > lets figure here. (im going back to imperial units for > > > > > a bit) our volume is approx 21,737 cubic ft for one of > > > > > the hulls at 64 ft long and 9.5 ft in diameter with > > > > > hemispherical ends. multiply that by 64.1 lbs per > > > > > cubic ft(weight of sea water) gives 1,393,341.7 lbs > > > > > total displacement for one hull totally submerged. > > > > > THis would be the 4.75 ft draft displacement figure > > > > > for both hulls together or 696 tons displacement (ok > > > > > im weirded out here. could you check these figures for > > > > > me because this doesn't sound right. this thing is > > > > > going to float like an empty eggshell.) > > > > > > > > > > ok at two feet of draft one cylinder has 47,837 lbs of > > > > > displacement. both hulls would displace 95,675.66 lbs > > > > > or 47 tons > > > > > > > > > > at one ft draft it would displace 34,357.6 lbs for > > > > > both hulls. or about 17 tons. > > > > > > > > > > 3 ft of draft gives us 85560.68 lbs per hull or > > > > > 171121.36 lbs displacement for both hulls or 85 tons > > > > > (i figured tons by dividing lbs displacement by 2000.) > > > > > > > > > > so say totally build and loaded to the gills maybe 50 > > > > > or 60 tons should give us a draft of around 2.5 feet > > > > > or 3/4 of a meter. > > > > > > > > > > i used volume calculater at the following webpage. > > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/partoutcyl.html > > > > > for partial volumes > > > > > and > > > > > http://grapevine.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/outcylinder.html > > > > > for volume of total cylinder. > > > > > > > > > > I have to get dry weight of these tanks. or at least > > > > > metal thickness so i can calculate weight. > > > > > hmm 5 mm steel plate 29.83 ft circumferance and 64 ft > > > > > long weighs 6961 kilograms > > > > > > > > > > 3/16 inch plate would be 6630 kilograms > > > > > > > > > > http://www.mesteel.com/cgi-bin/w3-msql/goto.htm? > > > > url=/info/carbon/convert/metalcalculator/metalcalculator_kg.htm > > > > > I used this calculator to figure this > > > > > > > > > > so converting to lbs the heavier of them for 5mm sheet > > > > > steel would give us 15346.38 lbs for one hull sheet > > > > > that size 30692.76 lbs for both hulls add in middle > > > > > pod using all the steel in one tank and you get 46038 > > > > > lbs or about 23 tons lets just double that and call it > > > > > the finished vessal. ( i know this is rough but this > > > > > is just a for instance) so we are weighing in at 46 > > > > > tons. Using the partial volume of a cylinder > > > > > calculater from earlier to figure draft gives about a > > > > > 1.5 ft draft for each hull carrying half that tonnage. > > > > > > > > > > just looking at the calculator as I added draft it > > > > > looks as if for roughly every additional inch of draft > > > > > you get roughly another 2.5 tons of displacement per > > > > > hull or thereabouts. ok my mind is bent. I'm going to > > > > > take a break on this today. I have to do all this > > > > > again on paper rather than free handing it here. It > > > > > seems like it should not be that light. i mean we are > > > > > talking a draft of only 1.5 feet (18 inches) 48 cm or > > > > > half a mmeter? thats insane. I must have made an error > > > > > in my figures. If this is true then your wetted > > > > > surface is going to be very minimal and your length to > > > > > width at the water line is going to be about 16 to 1. > > > > > I hate to say this but if you put a shaped bow on this > > > > > thing it should be fairly easy to push. with a small > > > > > long fin keel or some dagger boards for directional > > > > > stability you really could sail it. > > > > > > > > > > at 50 tons with 2 hp per ton displacement two auto > > > > > diesels should push her really well. you would have > > > > > about 4 hp per ton actually if you used a couple small > > > > > volkswagon diesels. > > > > > HULL SPEED = 1.34*lwl^.5 i know this is for mono's so > > > > > it is not going to be very accurate for a cat > > > > > configuration with a 16/1 waterline ratio but it would > > > > > give a hull speed of 10.72 knots with 2 to 3 hp per > > > > > ton displacement. i pulled that formula from this page > > > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bristolyht/screen.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another email here > > > > > > > > > > in your description of concept one did you mean to > > > > > take and create one ovoid section out of two pieces of > > > > > tank or to put two ovoid sections of tank one on top > > > > > of the other between the hulls? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think that concept two would be easier to build with > > > > > 3 or four sections of tank turned 90 degrees to the > > > > > hull and cut on the contour of the hull. and attached > > > > > so that they would be a little over a meter from the > > > > > waterline of the hull. which would extend them about a > > > > > meter and a half to two meters above the top of the > > > > > hull decks. You could then even tie these togeter > > > > > longitudinally with further sections between them > > > > > going for and aft. All those curves being welded > > > > > together would most likey give increadable strength. > > > > > > > > > > just use a plasma cutter to cut them apart and a crane > > > > > to lift into position and tack together. If you had it > > > > > all layed out and cut beforehand a crane for one or > > > > > two days at most would get all the major hull pieces > > > > > tacked together and ready for full welds at your > > > > > convience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if my calculations from earlier were correct you top > > > > > height above water would be about approx 12ft or just > > > > > less than 4 meters tall, 18 meters long? and about 9 > > > > > meters wide > > > > > > > > > > so we have three tanks giving us a 18 by 9 by 4 meter > > > > > structure drawing about a 1/2 meter to 3/4 meters of > > > > > water. ( im just thinking that a little wider would be > > > > > more stable though) say about 12 meters wide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 64 / 3 = about 21 ft per section with 4.5 ft overlap > > > > > at both ends so 21-(4.5+4.5) = 12 ft between hulls so > > > > > 9.5+9.5+12= 31 ft wide > > > > > > > > > > just some more musings :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more musings on spud/mast system > > > > > > > > > > basically the masts would penitrate a welded in well > > > > > all the way thru the hull and be tied into a > > > > > reinforced bulk head. You would not dismount them. > > > > > They would simply be winched straight up and down. say > > > > > 50 ft round or squared steel tube. This gives you > > > > > about a 10 foot bury thru the hull.steel cable > > > > > attached at the top and bottom of mast to pull it up > > > > > or down. Probably on the same winch. while one spools > > > > > out the other spools in. (spool with seperator in > > > > > middle. You would have a heavy raised lip say 6 to 12 > > > > > inches high where the mast comes thru the > > > > > partners/hull/deck level that you can put 1 inch or > > > > > better steel pins thru the mast to hold it in place > > > > > vertically up or down once it is in place. (could be > > > > > some other method but something that will hold mast > > > > > that is not the winch after it is where you want it. > > > > > Maybe even a friction fitting. your hand winches would > > > > > be capable of doing the job. No one winch would have > > > > > to support the whole weight of the vessal. if you had > > > > > 6 poles you could divide the weight of the vessal by 6 > > > > > and then add a bit back for a safety margin. one of > > > > > the barge winches was rated to 90 tons... this would > > > > > be overkill. Acually just take and put a small > > > > > electric auxillary motor on that for normal usage and > > > > > use it manually if there is no power for some reason. > > > > > In the mast position you would have 40 ft unstayed > > > > > masts. if you used junk rig on it you wouldnt even > > > > > have to dismount the sails when going to leg down > > > > > mode. because of the design the boom and full battens > > > > > would just rest in a fore and aft brackets above the > > > > > deck and be lashed down. None of the rig on a junk rig > > > > > is attached anywhere to the mast except the head and > > > > > then on the deck. It just has some ropes at each > > > > > batten that circle the mast and slide up and down > > > > > freely. One person can handle multiple junk rigs with > > > > > ease from the cockpit. That is one of the major > > > > > selling points. A small woman can handle a two masted > > > > > 35 footer by herself on watch in bad weather if it is > > > > > properly set up. Because you only have 40 ft masts you > > > > > are going to lose some of the wind higher up but you > > > > > will make up with that in that junk rigs tend to carry > > > > > about 20% more totall sail area safely than a > > > > > comparable bermudan rig. I'm thinking the legs of mast > > > > > will be on the order of 12 inches in diameter heavy > > > > > steel or 12 inches square. That heavy weight aloft is > > > > > why I was thinking wider is better. Raft stability > > > > > concept. Not sure but your probably looking at about > > > > > 1500 lbs per mast. because of leg mode they would be > > > > > heavier than normal steel masts. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from > MSN > > House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4080|3977|2004-06-07 14:20:59|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|:) damn.... no brother in law here..... so much for that idea :) I don't think splitting the tanks would be that good of an idea. It kind of 1) kills the savings in time of using a already existing structure. 2) weakens the basic shape to where you would have to build an entire support framework inside the hull. 3) you would have to find tanks about 15 ft in diameter if you wanted to have usable standing headroom inside. just my opinion though scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > I like Phil's idea of splitting the tanks thereby getting 1 boat > out of 1 tank.With steel prices being high maybe the cost of the tank > (free?)would offset the possible problems.Speaking of which,after > putting in my $.02 worth in the shantyboat site I looked around and > found this about welding propane tanks.The directions are sort of > involved but it's worth it....Go to Google.Above the search bar > hit "Groups".Enter "welding" and then search.Under "related groups" > click"sci.engr.joining.welding".Click on "search only in > sci.engr.etc.",enter "propane tanks" and then search.The best advice > I found there on the safest way to cut open or weld a propane tank > was to let your brother-in-law do it. | 4081|3915|2004-06-07 15:08:17|denis buggy|Re: Please Stick to the point|dear Shane please elaborate on your "almost as bad as multihulls irresponsible and dangerous " I would like to know what this view is based on . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane --- Courtney Thomas wrote: --------------------------------- Ben, Good to hear from you ! I have the Du Plessis book but do appreciate the reference. I'd appreciate a little elaboration regarding your caveat of "watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads". This boat has not been barrier-coated but I'm considering it. It has spent most of it's life in New England and hauled about half the year which I assume is a positive vis-a-vis melting in some South Florida marina. I find that I have so much to do overall that allowing it to sit a few months after hauling, before working on the hull..... is no problem. Fortunately I have enough space that I don't have to fool with boat yards but agree with you that I'd prefer an alloy boat if I had to build a boat today. Are you in NZ ? I've just discovered Kauri boats and could have happily abandoned considering alloy or fiberglass,... if I'd gotten a shot at one of those. Fascinating boats. I've also recently heard of the technique of using the base metal's strips as filler rod in building alloy boats and would really appreciate any further information on this technique. I've only recently gotten TIG capability, not proficiency though :-) and want to learn all about this. Cordially, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis > sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a > big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch > any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, > more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by > even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as > osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff > only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. > > The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul > out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before > tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck > in straight away. > > An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina > friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words > grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' > leaving only comercial yards at high expense. > > Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the > scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very > thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot > workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are > swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the > french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the > parent metal as filler rod. > > cheers > > Ben > > > http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp > http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm > http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4082|3977|2004-06-07 15:13:37|denis buggy|Re: Steel Catamaran|Scott yes h section I beam approx 8 inch across regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: audeojude To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 7:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel Catamaran I would love to see this.. When yo say H pillar what do you mean. I'm not familar with that. (is it just a h section I beam?) I have thought about the tanks that are used to transport liquids from gas to milk on the highways. Some of them are fair sized. Not sure what the diameter of them is. Maybe also tanks designed as tanker cars on railroads. scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Scott I have visited a elderly man who cannot be stopped from dreaming and doing . > he commenced last year his "barge project " and it is taking shape I may send a photo soon . > it has a h pillar for a keel, a box welded inside the h for cooling his marine lister and the hull surprise surprise is a ex petrol tanker all 4 mill thick beautifully rolled and the seams seem to be swaged and welded for a good leak free joint . there is hope yet. denis To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4083|4074|2004-06-07 15:16:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: building a "U" shaped bow|Hi Brent, Here's an example showing the effects in both the bow and stern. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_Full_Model.htm http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_U_Bow_Internal.htm Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: building a "U" shaped bow > Greg > Using the same trick aft gives you a wine glass transom, something > that was once considered extremely difficult in metal. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Our boats have different bow sections than is traditional in > origami. How is it done? > > > > Take a piece of regular A4 or 8.5x11 paper and hold it, long axis > vertical. Draw a point at the center. Now, draw a "Y" on the > > page, from the top corners, diagonal to the center, and from the > center vertically down to the bottom of the page in the middle. > > > > sort of like this. > > > > -------- > > |\ /| > > | \ / | > > | \ / | > > | | | > > | | | > > -------- > > > > Cut along the two diagonals to the center, to remove the "V." at > the top of the page. Throw the small "V." shaped piece away. > > > > Bring the remaining two sides of the "Y" together, and tape them so > that you have a cone. The two side of the "Y" are the bow, and > > the line drawn down the center of the page - the tail of the "Y" - > is the centerline between the two halves of your origami boat. > > Look at this bow in section and you will see that it is "U" shaped, > with the tightest radius at the base of the bow, radiating aft. > > > > How do you achieve this "U" when building a boat? Take two sheets > of metal and lay them side by side, as though they were the > > halves of the hull. Tack lightly down the centerline, and pull the > two halves up and together from the outside edges. You will get > > a "V". Now, lay the two sheets flat again, and weld the centerline > 100%. Again pull the two sides up and together. You will get a > > "U. > > > > We use a variation of this technique to form the distinctive > sections in our boats. We treat the bow and stern of the boat as > > though they were extra chines. We prevent the centerline from > simply folding into a "V", and adjust the patterns to take advantage > > of this. > > > > When building a "U" shaped bow section, the bow itself is simply > another dart to be pulled together. The forefoot of the hull is > > the cone that radiates outwards from the chine end. However, it > radiates inwards, rather than outwards, allowing a dramatic > > improvement in the ability to control the shape of an origami hull. > > > > By controlling the centerline while pulling the hull together, we > move the point of maximum curvature in the hull away from the > > chine ends, downwards toward the centerline, and outwards to the > ends of the boat. This increases the living space inside the > > boats, eliminates knuckles, and moves the buoyancy away from the > center of the boat, towards the ends where it will do the most > > good. > > > > It gives the boat a more rounded appearance, improving the overall > fairness of the hull, and corrects for the loss of prismatic > > coefficient that result from origami construction. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4084|3915|2004-06-07 17:09:52|Glen|Re: Please Stick to the point|Shane I would think that beeing the new guy to the site you might want to proceed a little slower. Most people on this site ignore the posts they do not care about and reply to the ones they want. To ask everone to curb their posts to only related topics would be killing ideas that could be something relavent later one. Maybe you need to follow the moderators lead and turn off the automatic forward feature to your e-mail. My two cents worth !! Glen| 4085|3915|2004-06-07 17:53:26|fmichael graham|Re: Please Stick to the point|Shane: Relax, man. A few months ago, someone else questioned whether topics seemingly unrelated to "origami boat building" were acceptable, or not. So, I opened a group where people with this same interest could go to discuss non-related topics. Guess what? 15 people joined and for 4 months nobody had a thing to say! Meanwhile, people continued to talk about seemingly non-related things at this group. Therefore, I shut down the other group and, now, tune in to the topics that interest me & pass over the rest.LOL Regards, Mike SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane --- Courtney Thomas wrote: --------------------------------- Ben, Good to hear from you ! I have the Du Plessis book but do appreciate the reference. I'd appreciate a little elaboration regarding your caveat of "watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads". This boat has not been barrier-coated but I'm considering it. It has spent most of it's life in New England and hauled about half the year which I assume is a positive vis-a-vis melting in some South Florida marina. I find that I have so much to do overall that allowing it to sit a few months after hauling, before working on the hull..... is no problem. Fortunately I have enough space that I don't have to fool with boat yards but agree with you that I'd prefer an alloy boat if I had to build a boat today. Are you in NZ ? I've just discovered Kauri boats and could have happily abandoned considering alloy or fiberglass,... if I'd gotten a shot at one of those. Fascinating boats. I've also recently heard of the technique of using the base metal's strips as filler rod in building alloy boats and would really appreciate any further information on this technique. I've only recently gotten TIG capability, not proficiency though :-) and want to learn all about this. Cordially, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis > sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a > big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch > any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, > more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by > even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as > osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff > only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. > > The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul > out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before > tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck > in straight away. > > An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina > friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words > grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' > leaving only comercial yards at high expense. > > Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the > scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very > thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot > workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are > swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the > french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the > parent metal as filler rod. > > cheers > > Ben > > > http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp > http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm > http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4086|4074|2004-06-07 18:47:48|brentswain38|Re: building a "U" shaped bow|Looks good. Is that Greg's boat. That gives you a good U shape below the waterline. We avoid having a straight V shape above the waterline by putting an outside curve in the stem. I didn't see any stringers . We've found that putting longitudianls on while the plate is flat on the ground is much easier and keeps the hull fair. Welding stringers in the conic ends after the hull is pulled up tends to aneal the plate at the welds and it can give a bit, creating a multi chine effect wherever there is a stringer.If you weld the stringers in after the hull is up, beware of too much heat on these welds. I tried 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 angles on steel for a 40 footer and it was a bit too stiff, but saw a Graeme Shannon origami design built in aluminium with 1 1/2 X1/4 angle stringers with no problems. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Here's an example showing the effects in both the bow and stern. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_Full_M odel.htm > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_U_Bow_ Internal.htm > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:56 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: building a "U" shaped bow > > > > Greg > > Using the same trick aft gives you a wine glass transom, something > > that was once considered extremely difficult in metal. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Our boats have different bow sections than is traditional in > > origami. How is it done? > > > > > > Take a piece of regular A4 or 8.5x11 paper and hold it, long axis > > vertical. Draw a point at the center. Now, draw a "Y" on the > > > page, from the top corners, diagonal to the center, and from the > > center vertically down to the bottom of the page in the middle. > > > > > > sort of like this. > > > > > > -------- > > > |\ /| > > > | \ / | > > > | \ / | > > > | | | > > > | | | > > > -------- > > > > > > Cut along the two diagonals to the center, to remove the "V." at > > the top of the page. Throw the small "V." shaped piece away. > > > > > > Bring the remaining two sides of the "Y" together, and tape them so > > that you have a cone. The two side of the "Y" are the bow, and > > > the line drawn down the center of the page - the tail of the "Y" - > > is the centerline between the two halves of your origami boat. > > > Look at this bow in section and you will see that it is "U" shaped, > > with the tightest radius at the base of the bow, radiating aft. > > > > > > How do you achieve this "U" when building a boat? Take two sheets > > of metal and lay them side by side, as though they were the > > > halves of the hull. Tack lightly down the centerline, and pull the > > two halves up and together from the outside edges. You will get > > > a "V". Now, lay the two sheets flat again, and weld the centerline > > 100%. Again pull the two sides up and together. You will get a > > > "U. > > > > > > We use a variation of this technique to form the distinctive > > sections in our boats. We treat the bow and stern of the boat as > > > though they were extra chines. We prevent the centerline from > > simply folding into a "V", and adjust the patterns to take advantage > > > of this. > > > > > > When building a "U" shaped bow section, the bow itself is simply > > another dart to be pulled together. The forefoot of the hull is > > > the cone that radiates outwards from the chine end. However, it > > radiates inwards, rather than outwards, allowing a dramatic > > > improvement in the ability to control the shape of an origami hull. > > > > > > By controlling the centerline while pulling the hull together, we > > move the point of maximum curvature in the hull away from the > > > chine ends, downwards toward the centerline, and outwards to the > > ends of the boat. This increases the living space inside the > > > boats, eliminates knuckles, and moves the buoyancy away from the > > center of the boat, towards the ends where it will do the most > > > good. > > > > > > It gives the boat a more rounded appearance, improving the overall > > fairness of the hull, and corrects for the loss of prismatic > > > coefficient that result from origami construction. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4087|4087|2004-06-07 20:46:06|hauraki_blue|Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs (loaded). Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) Must be a decnt performer to windward. Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an argument about heavy-weather tactics. Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like this? Any ideas greeted with thanks.| 4088|4087|2004-06-07 21:05:20|hauraki_blue|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|What about the 31 footer I see in the PHOTOS file? It has twin keels but could it be done with a full keel or semi-full keel? What does that boat displace? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs (loaded). > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > this? > Any ideas greeted with thanks. | 4089|4087|2004-06-07 23:20:04|jumpaltair|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|I'm sure Brent's 31 design would be available in a fin keel, but I'll let him answer. If I recall correctly the 31 displaces about 12,000lbs. Peter -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > What about the 31 footer I see in the PHOTOS file? It has twin keels > but could it be done with a full keel or semi-full keel? What does > that boat displace? > | 4090|3915|2004-06-07 23:21:14|Michael Casling|Re: frames|As with all materials it is the quality of the build that will determine the longivity. All the materials will fail if constantly flexed, some sooner than others. If the glass boat is fairly stiff and not prone to flexing too much it should last a long time, we do not know how long because they have only been built since the fifties. The cure time can determine how brittle they might become. I think most of the well built ones should last 100 years, ask the question again in another 50 years. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Courtney Thomas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: frames Ron, Thanks for joining in.... I don't at all regard my boat as worn out but rather have been unable to locate, if it exists, information regarding fiberglass durability and consequently was hopeful that someone in the group might be aware of new information in that regard. I have thought awhile about the merits of various boat building materials and think I'm unbiased, though clearly for some uses certain materials seem to be more appropriate, e.g. metal in polar regions. If I had unlimited money I think I'd go with a triaxial S-glass boat with epoxy resin, as I read that it's stronger and lighter than steel plus no rust; and, there are also other objections to steel but then no material is without it's problems of course. I too in my circumstances would probably opt for aluminum if I had to build a boat now, but have only recently acquired a welder capable of the job, am not TIG proficient, and am presently consumed with modifying a tractor-trailer rig for hauling and winter storage for my present boat. So.....I'm grateful that I'm able to sail now while mulling over preservation of what I've got, as well as enjoying considering other possible future choices. I'd enjoy hearing your plans and thoughts in these regards, Keep in touch, Courtney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4091|4087|2004-06-07 23:30:21|hauraki_blue|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|12000 lbs would be a good size. But there are different concepts of what constistutes a fin-keel and the ability to heave to. I prefer a fuller keel. Yes, Brent will have to answer this. Thanks for your reply. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jumpaltair" wrote: > I'm sure Brent's 31 design would be available in a fin keel, but I'll > let him answer. If I recall correctly the 31 displaces about > 12,000lbs. > > Peter > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > wrote: > > What about the 31 footer I see in the PHOTOS file? It has twin > keels > > but could it be done with a full keel or semi-full keel? What does > > that boat displace? > > | 4092|3915|2004-06-07 23:34:56|Michael Casling|Re: Please Stick to the point|I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses usually purchase what they want and it does not always make sense, it is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice about all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a good approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a dry bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, have owned them since new and would not part with them. Fibreglass boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, it may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I am sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of the building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood has rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, a rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters into the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience with a fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4093|3915|2004-06-07 23:56:27|Michael Casling|Re: frames, and alloy/steel|Ben, what about Steel Boats in Auckland, there used to be plenty of facilities for getting steel or alloy boats repaired. I have photos of one of the around the world boats being repaired by volunteers over the Christmas holidays. It was an alloy boat. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Tucker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 6:10 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: frames, and alloy/steel Hello Courtney, A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck in straight away. An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' leaving only comercial yards at high expense. Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the parent metal as filler rod. cheers Ben http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4094|4013|2004-06-07 23:56:51|Michael Casling|Re: resources|My day job is in the financial business and after many years I have a fairly good idea if a person has any money, but only after I have had the opportunity to talk with them. Otherwise I do not have a clue. A lawyer may have access to property titles but that is about all, otherwise they would have to play private detective. With some folks it can be a bit obvious but you will never know unless the person is prepared to fully disclose all their holdings. Money is second only to sex as the most difficult discussion, don't know where religion and boats are. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: johnkupris@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 6:34 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: resources This lawyer talk reminds me of question that I have had for a long time. Can a lawyer tell who has assets and who does not, very easily? What is the source of this information? Does it come from lawyers? sort of like a an enemy spy in the camp? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4095|4074|2004-06-08 02:00:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: building a "U" shaped bow|Hi Brent, Thanks, yes it is Greg's boat. It was built to a specific shape, and came out on the numbers, so we are pretty happy with the result. Roger the caution about the stringers. We had some misinformation about what they found building the the alloy 50's, otherwise we'd have put them on first. Is this the same Grahame Shannon from Vancouver that created the Autoship software? I put our LB39 computer model on his computers about 16 years ago to run some performance numbers. As I recall he was not a fan of origami when I talked to him at the time. Maybe our model changed his mind. Any thoughts on when the hull was built? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: building a "U" shaped bow > Looks good. Is that Greg's boat. That gives you a good U shape below > the waterline. We avoid having a straight V shape above the waterline > by putting an outside curve in the stem. > I didn't see any stringers . We've found that putting longitudianls > on while the plate is flat on the ground is much easier and keeps the > hull fair. Welding stringers in the conic ends after the hull is > pulled up tends to aneal the plate at the welds and it can give a > bit, creating a multi chine effect wherever there is a stringer.If > you weld the stringers in after the hull is up, beware of too much > heat on these welds. > I tried 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 angles on steel for a 40 footer and it > was a bit too stiff, but saw a Graeme Shannon origami design built in > aluminium with 1 1/2 X1/4 angle stringers with no problems. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > > > Here's an example showing the effects in both the bow and stern. > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_Full_M > odel.htm > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_U_Bow_ > Internal.htm > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:56 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: building a "U" shaped bow > > > > > > > Greg > > > Using the same trick aft gives you a wine glass transom, > something > > > that was once considered extremely difficult in metal. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Our boats have different bow sections than is traditional in > > > origami. How is it done? > > > > > > > > Take a piece of regular A4 or 8.5x11 paper and hold it, long > axis > > > vertical. Draw a point at the center. Now, draw a "Y" on the > > > > page, from the top corners, diagonal to the center, and from > the > > > center vertically down to the bottom of the page in the middle. > > > > > > > > sort of like this. > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > |\ /| > > > > | \ / | > > > > | \ / | > > > > | | | > > > > | | | > > > > -------- > > > > > > > > Cut along the two diagonals to the center, to remove the "V." > at > > > the top of the page. Throw the small "V." shaped piece away. > > > > > > > > Bring the remaining two sides of the "Y" together, and tape > them so > > > that you have a cone. The two side of the "Y" are the bow, and > > > > the line drawn down the center of the page - the tail of > the "Y" - > > > is the centerline between the two halves of your origami boat. > > > > Look at this bow in section and you will see that it is "U" > shaped, > > > with the tightest radius at the base of the bow, radiating aft. > > > > > > > > How do you achieve this "U" when building a boat? Take two > sheets > > > of metal and lay them side by side, as though they were the > > > > halves of the hull. Tack lightly down the centerline, and pull > the > > > two halves up and together from the outside edges. You will get > > > > a "V". Now, lay the two sheets flat again, and weld the > centerline > > > 100%. Again pull the two sides up and together. You will get a > > > > "U. > > > > > > > > We use a variation of this technique to form the distinctive > > > sections in our boats. We treat the bow and stern of the boat as > > > > though they were extra chines. We prevent the centerline from > > > simply folding into a "V", and adjust the patterns to take > advantage > > > > of this. > > > > > > > > When building a "U" shaped bow section, the bow itself is > simply > > > another dart to be pulled together. The forefoot of the hull is > > > > the cone that radiates outwards from the chine end. However, > it > > > radiates inwards, rather than outwards, allowing a dramatic > > > > improvement in the ability to control the shape of an origami > hull. > > > > > > > > By controlling the centerline while pulling the hull together, > we > > > move the point of maximum curvature in the hull away from the > > > > chine ends, downwards toward the centerline, and outwards to > the > > > ends of the boat. This increases the living space inside the > > > > boats, eliminates knuckles, and moves the buoyancy away from > the > > > center of the boat, towards the ends where it will do the most > > > > good. > > > > > > > > It gives the boat a more rounded appearance, improving the > overall > > > fairness of the hull, and corrects for the loss of prismatic > > > > coefficient that result from origami construction. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4096|3915|2004-06-08 13:19:27|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Please Stick to the point|Michael, You make a number of good points and David Gerr is obviously much more the diplomat than I. However, 1. as fibreglass will conform to virtually any shape, how is origami applicable 2. sure glass has it's applications but I wonder how the people who love their plastic boats would think if they had had to put them to the test as Brent mentioned recently in rammings, collisions, bouncing off reefs etc? 3. I'm delighted to hear you have a dry bilge etc. there has to be at least one Your suggestion of using the delete button is a good one. Please accept my appologies if I have offended in any way. that was not the intent. I suppose it's me bringing in personal stuff but if I knew then what I know now I would never have delt with glass or gone offshore in a multi and learning what works is the whole point of the forum isn't it... Shane --- Michael Casling wrote: --------------------------------- I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses usually purchase what they want and it does not always make sense, it is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice about all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a good approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a dry bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, have owned them since new and would not part with them. Fibreglass boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, it may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I am sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of the building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood has rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, a rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters into the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience with a fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 4097|4074|2004-06-08 14:15:37|brentswain38|Re: building a "U" shaped bow|Greg This is the Grahame Shannon from Vancouver. He designed a 44 footer for Sleazy Gunter of Fastwater Marine. Gunter Richtler warped the hell out of her, both during the building proccess and by pouring hot lead into her aluminium keels, which turned Shannon off origami for a while, but I heard he is back designing for them . The hull was built at Shelter Island Marina in the late 90's . Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Thanks, yes it is Greg's boat. It was built to a specific shape, and came out on the numbers, so we are pretty happy with the > result. Roger the caution about the stringers. We had some misinformation about what they found building the the alloy 50's, > otherwise we'd have put them on first. > > Is this the same Grahame Shannon from Vancouver that created the Autoship software? I put our LB39 computer model on his computers > about 16 years ago to run some performance numbers. As I recall he was not a fan of origami when I talked to him at the time. > Maybe our model changed his mind. Any thoughts on when the hull was built? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:47 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: building a "U" shaped bow > > > > Looks good. Is that Greg's boat. That gives you a good U shape below > > the waterline. We avoid having a straight V shape above the waterline > > by putting an outside curve in the stem. > > I didn't see any stringers . We've found that putting longitudianls > > on while the plate is flat on the ground is much easier and keeps the > > hull fair. Welding stringers in the conic ends after the hull is > > pulled up tends to aneal the plate at the welds and it can give a > > bit, creating a multi chine effect wherever there is a stringer.If > > you weld the stringers in after the hull is up, beware of too much > > heat on these welds. > > I tried 1 1/2 inch by 1/4 angles on steel for a 40 footer and it > > was a bit too stiff, but saw a Graeme Shannon origami design built in > > aluminium with 1 1/2 X1/4 angle stringers with no problems. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Hi Brent, > > > > > > Here's an example showing the effects in both the bow and stern. > > > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_Full_M > > odel.htm > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Genoa55/G55_Construction/G55_U_Bow_ > > Internal.htm > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:56 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: building a "U" shaped bow > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > Using the same trick aft gives you a wine glass transom, > > something > > > > that was once considered extremely difficult in metal. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > Our boats have different bow sections than is traditional in > > > > origami. How is it done? > > > > > > > > > > Take a piece of regular A4 or 8.5x11 paper and hold it, long > > axis > > > > vertical. Draw a point at the center. Now, draw a "Y" on the > > > > > page, from the top corners, diagonal to the center, and from > > the > > > > center vertically down to the bottom of the page in the middle. > > > > > > > > > > sort of like this. > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > > > > |\ /| > > > > > | \ / | > > > > > | \ / | > > > > > | | | > > > > > | | | > > > > > -------- > > > > > > > > > > Cut along the two diagonals to the center, to remove the "V." > > at > > > > the top of the page. Throw the small "V." shaped piece away. > > > > > > > > > > Bring the remaining two sides of the "Y" together, and tape > > them so > > > > that you have a cone. The two side of the "Y" are the bow, and > > > > > the line drawn down the center of the page - the tail of > > the "Y" - > > > > is the centerline between the two halves of your origami boat. > > > > > Look at this bow in section and you will see that it is "U" > > shaped, > > > > with the tightest radius at the base of the bow, radiating aft. > > > > > > > > > > How do you achieve this "U" when building a boat? Take two > > sheets > > > > of metal and lay them side by side, as though they were the > > > > > halves of the hull. Tack lightly down the centerline, and pull > > the > > > > two halves up and together from the outside edges. You will get > > > > > a "V". Now, lay the two sheets flat again, and weld the > > centerline > > > > 100%. Again pull the two sides up and together. You will get a > > > > > "U. > > > > > > > > > > We use a variation of this technique to form the distinctive > > > > sections in our boats. We treat the bow and stern of the boat as > > > > > though they were extra chines. We prevent the centerline from > > > > simply folding into a "V", and adjust the patterns to take > > advantage > > > > > of this. > > > > > > > > > > When building a "U" shaped bow section, the bow itself is > > simply > > > > another dart to be pulled together. The forefoot of the hull is > > > > > the cone that radiates outwards from the chine end. However, > > it > > > > radiates inwards, rather than outwards, allowing a dramatic > > > > > improvement in the ability to control the shape of an origami > > hull. > > > > > > > > > > By controlling the centerline while pulling the hull together, > > we > > > > move the point of maximum curvature in the hull away from the > > > > > chine ends, downwards toward the centerline, and outwards to > > the > > > > ends of the boat. This increases the living space inside the > > > > > boats, eliminates knuckles, and moves the buoyancy away from > > the > > > > center of the boat, towards the ends where it will do the most > > > > > good. > > > > > > > > > > It gives the boat a more rounded appearance, improving the > > overall > > > > fairness of the hull, and corrects for the loss of prismatic > > > > > coefficient that result from origami construction. > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4098|3915|2004-06-08 14:21:24|brentswain38|Re: Please Stick to the point|Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail Magazine gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all steel boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether well painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel boats in perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. So much for Gerr. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses usually purchase what they want and it does not always make sense, it is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice about all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a good approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a dry bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, have owned them since new and would not part with them. Fibreglass boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, it may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I am sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of the building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood has rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, a rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters into the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience with a fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > but certianly not for building a hull. > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > material other than metal for a boat? > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > other material with the possible exeption of other > metals > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > can be used for towing in anything other than the > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > born every minute) > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > simply.....dangerous. > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > together my next boat > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > different systems & the sharing of information with > other members?? > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > with some people going on about > - fibreglass > - financing > - real estate > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > actually) > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > that > > Thanks > Shane > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4099|4087|2004-06-08 14:22:34|brentswain38|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|The 31 is available in a long fin keel. I built one that way in the early 90's . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jumpaltair" wrote: > I'm sure Brent's 31 design would be available in a fin keel, but I'll > let him answer. If I recall correctly the 31 displaces about > 12,000lbs. > > Peter > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > wrote: > > What about the 31 footer I see in the PHOTOS file? It has twin > keels > > but could it be done with a full keel or semi-full keel? What does > > that boat displace? > > | 4100|3915|2004-06-08 14:23:44|Michael Casling|Re: Please Stick to the point|Shane, well said, fact is I do not like multi hulls for off shore use either. 1 Fiberglass is not applicable to origami, but there are a lot of folks that have glass boats that are thinking about steel or alloy. 2 Most boat shoppers do not ask the appropriate questions, generally because they do not know what to ask. A production glass boat seems to be a good place to start for most, if they stick with boating they will learn more. When I bought my boat in 1979 I was a dealer for the same brand so I had ample opportunity to ask questions about layup procedures. A boat like mine was washed and bounced inshore a couple of miles during a huricane in the Gulf of Mexico, it was taken back to the puddle where it floated, others were smashed. 3 It does not rain where I keep my boat but if it does it is still dry. Plenty of vents pretty much stops the condensation, but I would have to add more if the boat was at the Left Coast. I had problems with the balsa core in a glass boat I owned , and hull blisters have caused enough grief for many. All the materials have good and bad points to deal with, we need to do the best we can with what we have. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point Michael, You make a number of good points and David Gerr is obviously much more the diplomat than I. However, 1. as fibreglass will conform to virtually any shape, how is origami applicable 2. sure glass has it's applications but I wonder how the people who love their plastic boats would think if they had had to put them to the test as Brent mentioned recently in rammings, collisions, bouncing off reefs etc? 3. I'm delighted to hear you have a dry bilge etc. there has to be at least one Your suggestion of using the delete button is a good one. Please accept my appologies if I have offended in any way. that was not the intent. I suppose it's me bringing in personal stuff but if I knew then what I know now I would never have delt with glass or gone offshore in a multi and learning what works is the whole point of the forum isn't it... Shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4101|4087|2004-06-08 14:28:57|brentswain38|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I wouildn't reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder and fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol channel cutters are known for. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs (loaded). > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > this? > Any ideas greeted with thanks. | 4102|3915|2004-06-08 15:21:14|Michael Casling|Re: Please Stick to the point|I have not read the article so I can not comment. He is of course addressing a broard audience and is this day and age if you do not disclose the negative facts about anything you can get in trouble. According to things you have said many old wooden boats in perfect condition today would not be affloat. Does this give you a credibility problem ?? I do not think so in either case, Gerr is trying to be forthright and you are enthusiastic about steel. I think your beef about the pipedream was more justified. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:20 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail Magazine gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all steel boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether well painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel boats in perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. So much for Gerr. Brent Swain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4103|4087|2004-06-08 16:31:14|hauraki_blue|Vicious weather helm?!|As far as weight aft, I sail without an engine. If you have the skills to sail without engine assistance - then you will not beleive how much better your boat will sail without that weight aft, and that prop dragging. Gives you more stowage space as well. Of course an Engines provide a way for the idiot "Cruising World" retiree type motor-sailing the world on their "wondrous fifty footer" to start sailing and learn all the bad habits associated with someone who learns to motor-sail rather than sail. BCC has a vicious weather helm? Not something I would assoicate with Lyle Hess designs - but hey, if you have sailed on a few BCC's, or know of people that have sailed on a few BCC's that have vicious weather helm - then I am not gonna argue. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I wouildn't > reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder and > fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you > least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the > engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even > more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra > work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of > lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage > of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a > boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol > channel cutters are known for. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > wrote: > > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs > (loaded). > > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running > > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > > this? > > Any ideas greeted with thanks. | 4104|4104|2004-06-08 17:43:02|denis buggy|Re: Gerr|DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while quite" young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by flexing over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail Magazine gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all steel boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether well painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel boats in perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. So much for Gerr. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses usually purchase what they want and it does not always make sense, it is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice about all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a good approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a dry bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, have owned them since new and would not part with them. Fibreglass boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, it may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I am sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of the building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood has rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, a rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters into the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience with a fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > but certianly not for building a hull. > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > material other than metal for a boat? > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > other material with the possible exeption of other > metals > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > can be used for towing in anything other than the > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > born every minute) > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > simply.....dangerous. > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > together my next boat > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > different systems & the sharing of information with > other members?? > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > with some people going on about > - fibreglass > - financing > - real estate > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > actually) > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > that > > Thanks > Shane > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4105|4104|2004-06-08 18:12:09|hauraki_blue|Gerr|I think Moitessiers "Joshua" is on show in a museum in France. "Joshua" is approaching 40 years of age, including pounding on the beach of Cabao San Lucas. What would Gerr have to say about that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while quite" young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by flexing over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail Magazine > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all steel > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether well > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel boats in > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > So much for Gerr. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make sense, it > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice about > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a good > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a dry > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, > have owned them since new and would not part with them. Fibreglass > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, it > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I am > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of the > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood has > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, a > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters into > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience with a > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > metals > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > born every minute) > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > together my next boat > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > other members?? > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > with some people going on about > > - fibreglass > > - financing > > - real estate > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > actually) > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > that > > > > Thanks > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4106|4087|2004-06-08 18:13:06|Joe Casey|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|Hi Brent, Speaking of engine weight as regards the 31 with bilge keels, what in your opinion is the right diesel engine size for that boat? Do you know of a marine transmission that saves weight while still giving long, durable, and reliable service? Best, Joe -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:29 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing? One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I wouildn't reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder and fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol channel cutters are known for. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs (loaded). > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > this? > Any ideas greeted with thanks. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4107|4107|2004-06-08 18:15:00|Courtney Thomas|has anyone built an origami with rounded bilges, i.e. no chines, an|Who, what size and are there plans available and from whom ? Appreciatively, Courtney Thomas -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4108|4104|2004-06-08 19:20:59|Michael Casling|Re: Gerr|Page 319 The Nature of Boats by Dave Gerr / Steel second paragraph. " Nevertheless steel has some tremendous advantages. One is its almost unbelievable strength and resistance to abrasion and impact. A small boat built of steel is as close to truly indestructible as it's possible to get. Steel vessels have pounded for hours on the rocks in heavy seas and sailed away later under their own steam. In fact for a hard-pushed workboat or a vessel expected to take really punishing conditions off soundings, I would recommend steel for reasons of strength alone." I would not be in too big a rush to dump on his views if I were a steel fan. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: hauraki_blue To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 3:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr I think Moitessiers "Joshua" is on show in a museum in France. "Joshua" is approaching 40 years of age, including pounding on the beach of Cabao San Lucas. What would Gerr have to say about that? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while quite" young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by flexing over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards denis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4109|4109|2004-06-08 20:28:14|Gerald Niffenegger|Compressor size?|I am in the process of buying a compressor to sand blast my hull. I am looking at a Wayne/Dresser unit with two five cylinder compressors. The two running together put out 255 cubic feet per minute. Would running one of the compressors be enough? What size nozzle and hose should I buy? I plan on using a 55 gallon propane tank as the sand container. Is that large enough or will I be filling it more than blasting? Gerald| 4110|3915|2004-06-08 21:15:04|Ben Tucker|Re: frames, and alloy/steel|Hello Michael Yes Steel can be repaired anywhere, except near other Yachts. Most marinas and Slipways down here now have a blanket ban on Grinding Steel and Sandblasting. And Fair enough Because I wouldn't wont someone grinding next to my boat if it was all painted up nice (right now they could do what they like!). Have those of you that have had Steel yachts for a while had any Problems getting work like sandblasting and stuff done? I have been Politely refused at two slipways because I Told them I needed to weld (and therefore Grind). Should have kept my mouth shut, but It's kind of hard to hide the sound of a grinder, and then Id only make it harder for the next Guy. They are all happy to let you do regular stuff like paint and sand. The Cheap Yachty places (AUD$3-14 per day) down here that will allow sandblasting Ashore are few and far between and diminishing daily. Places That you can do major work on a steel boat can be found,with a bit of sluthing around but they can be awkward or out of the way, or expensive. Mostly not good for living Aboard. Fishing boat places are seem the best bet (around $50 per day). Im lucky here that I can use the Maritime college wharf in the weekends to do alot of the Grinding and welding on deck, and then return to the Marina during the week. Even Being carefull i've gotten some grinding dust on my friends Yacht moored 20 feet away. If I didn't have this berth I'd have to buy a petrol genset and work of a mooring. All this really is a very minor factor on a well built steel boat and it only really affects us stupid enough to liveaboard and do major rebuilds while working at the same time. I Plan to Build the next boat out of Steel, But I will make sure the Deck Plan is Spot on and plenty of Stainless is used Before I Launch, Or that I have a conveinent work berth. Of course if your sensible and pay a yard to do the work it becomes easy anywhere! Cheers Ben > Ben, what about Steel Boats in Auckland, there used to be plenty of facilities for getting steel or alloy boats repaired. I have photos of one of the around the world boats being repaired by volunteers over the Christmas holidays. It was an alloy boat. Michael > | 4111|3915|2004-06-08 23:06:30|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Please Stick to the point|Michael, Yes, I was one of those who didn't know the right questions to ask & got into a major rebuild with a Norfolk 43...Glass is exellent for bathtubs, radar domes & the like but not for anything larger than an rowboat. like me, before my 'ordeal' ignorance of other quality materials is the reason I figure most people buy glass boats. The glass boat well ashore in the typhoon is what, one in 5 milion? Ventilation is key in any boat (a mates steelie had 500 ventilation holes down below & was the cleanest boat i've ever seen, french built). ventilation helps with glass as well, but the basic material is the problem as ANY compromise of the gell coat will get h2o at the glass rovings which wick water (read delamiantion & the pox=blisters). Polyester resin sucks water & holds it. also, to the great shame of the vast majority of glass production 'builders', many are not coated in any way whatsoever down below where it can't be seen. in the tropics down below on many boats it's like a rainforest. Sad. In conclusion, I couldn't agree with you more re your comment of doing the best you can with what you have. Here here! Cheers, Shane --- Michael Casling wrote: --------------------------------- Shane, well said, fact is I do not like multi hulls for off shore use either. 1 Fiberglass is not applicable to origami, but there are a lot of folks that have glass boats that are thinking about steel or alloy. 2 Most boat shoppers do not ask the appropriate questions, generally because they do not know what to ask. A production glass boat seems to be a good place to start for most, if they stick with boating they will learn more. When I bought my boat in 1979 I was a dealer for the same brand so I had ample opportunity to ask questions about layup procedures. A boat like mine was washed and bounced inshore a couple of miles during a huricane in the Gulf of Mexico, it was taken back to the puddle where it floated, others were smashed. 3 It does not rain where I keep my boat but if it does it is still dry. Plenty of vents pretty much stops the condensation, but I would have to add more if the boat was at the Left Coast. I had problems with the balsa core in a glass boat I owned , and hull blisters have caused enough grief for many. All the materials have good and bad points to deal with, we need to do the best we can with what we have. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point Michael, You make a number of good points and David Gerr is obviously much more the diplomat than I. However, 1. as fibreglass will conform to virtually any shape, how is origami applicable 2. sure glass has it's applications but I wonder how the people who love their plastic boats would think if they had had to put them to the test as Brent mentioned recently in rammings, collisions, bouncing off reefs etc? 3. I'm delighted to hear you have a dry bilge etc. there has to be at least one Your suggestion of using the delete button is a good one. Please accept my appologies if I have offended in any way. that was not the intent. I suppose it's me bringing in personal stuff but if I knew then what I know now I would never have delt with glass or gone offshore in a multi and learning what works is the whole point of the forum isn't it... Shane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 4112|3915|2004-06-09 00:20:16|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Please Stick to the point|Mike, Fair enuf, shall focus on the chill & delete sooner. My problem is i go 82 emails & try to gleam as much as possible from the forum. Cheers, Shane --- fmichael graham wrote: --------------------------------- Shane: Relax, man. A few months ago, someone else questioned whether topics seemingly unrelated to "origami boat building" were acceptable, or not. So, I opened a group where people with this same interest could go to discuss non-related topics. Guess what? 15 people joined and for 4 months nobody had a thing to say! Meanwhile, people continued to talk about seemingly non-related things at this group. Therefore, I shut down the other group and, now, tune in to the topics that interest me & pass over the rest.LOL Regards, Mike SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane --- Courtney Thomas wrote: --------------------------------- Ben, Good to hear from you ! I have the Du Plessis book but do appreciate the reference. I'd appreciate a little elaboration regarding your caveat of "watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads". This boat has not been barrier-coated but I'm considering it. It has spent most of it's life in New England and hauled about half the year which I assume is a positive vis-a-vis melting in some South Florida marina. I find that I have so much to do overall that allowing it to sit a few months after hauling, before working on the hull..... is no problem. Fortunately I have enough space that I don't have to fool with boat yards but agree with you that I'd prefer an alloy boat if I had to build a boat today. Are you in NZ ? I've just discovered Kauri boats and could have happily abandoned considering alloy or fiberglass,... if I'd gotten a shot at one of those. Fascinating boats. I've also recently heard of the technique of using the base metal's strips as filler rod in building alloy boats and would really appreciate any further information on this technique. I've only recently gotten TIG capability, not proficiency though :-) and want to learn all about this. Cordially, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis > sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a > big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch > any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, > more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by > even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as > osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff > only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. > > The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul > out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before > tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck > in straight away. > > An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina > friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words > grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' > leaving only comercial yards at high expense. > > Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the > scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very > thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot > workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are > swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the > french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the > parent metal as filler rod. > > cheers > > Ben > > > http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp > http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm > http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4113|3915|2004-06-09 00:24:40|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Please Stick to the point|Glen, Your comments worth more than 2 cents. My appologies, both to you and any others who I might have offended. I'm learning..... Shane --- Glen wrote: --------------------------------- Shane I would think that beeing the new guy to the site you might want to proceed a little slower. Most people on this site ignore the posts they do not care about and reply to the ones they want. To ask everone to curb their posts to only related topics would be killing ideas that could be something relavent later one. Maybe you need to follow the moderators lead and turn off the automatic forward feature to your e-mail. My two cents worth !! Glen To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4114|4109|2004-06-09 00:30:41|Michael Casling|Re: Compressor size?|Gerald I do not know the answer to your question but it reminds me of a compressor I met many years ago. The highways department foreman in Victoria BC who lived in Sooke to the North East needed a large compressor. He got a six cylinder car engine from a Hupmobile I think and rearranged it so that three cylinders ran the motor and three cylinders compressed the air. The air was stoored in a stainless steel milk / cream container. A flat board hanging behind the fan and operating a vacuum wiper motor worked as the governor. It was a sight to see and behold when it was running. It pumped out about as much air as those diesel powered units the the highways department has. This was the same guy who put a turbine in a snow plow for the Rogers Pass. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Compressor size? I am in the process of buying a compressor to sand blast my hull. I am looking at a Wayne/Dresser unit with two five cylinder compressors. The two running together put out 255 cubic feet per minute. Would running one of the compressors be enough? What size nozzle and hose should I buy? I plan on using a 55 gallon propane tank as the sand container. Is that large enough or will I be filling it more than blasting? Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4115|3915|2004-06-09 00:52:04|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Please Stick to the point|Dennis, It was in refrence to glass construction for offshore boats and it's based on experience. my intent was to hopefully save others the problems I have had in working on glass & seeing the results to glass of anything more strenious than a hard look. One passage Honolulu - Long Beach on a 37' tri. Damned near tripped over our own bows in 20 knotts of wind on a very broad reach with big rollers from behind. However, my intent was not to offend, which it seems I have done. Please accept my appologies Shane --- denis buggy wrote: --------------------------------- dear Shane please elaborate on your "almost as bad as multihulls irresponsible and dangerous " I would like to know what this view is based on . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: SHANE ROTHWELL To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a wonderful product, which for some applications it is, but certianly not for building a hull. Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that glass is quite simply a suckers bet. When you consider that the strength of steel compared to any other material (with the possible exeption of alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any material other than metal for a boat? Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any other material with the possible exeption of other metals Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that can be used for towing in anything other than the lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute) It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what they do in a blow, scary as hell! It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very simply.....dangerous. I am a new member to this forum but have been around boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put together my next boat Is this forum not for learning more about what works, different systems & the sharing of information with other members?? It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails with some people going on about - fibreglass - financing - real estate - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool actually) Keeping others updated as to a build, related equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... all good, but where does it get any of us reading through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like that Thanks Shane --- Courtney Thomas wrote: --------------------------------- Ben, Good to hear from you ! I have the Du Plessis book but do appreciate the reference. I'd appreciate a little elaboration regarding your caveat of "watch any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads". This boat has not been barrier-coated but I'm considering it. It has spent most of it's life in New England and hauled about half the year which I assume is a positive vis-a-vis melting in some South Florida marina. I find that I have so much to do overall that allowing it to sit a few months after hauling, before working on the hull..... is no problem. Fortunately I have enough space that I don't have to fool with boat yards but agree with you that I'd prefer an alloy boat if I had to build a boat today. Are you in NZ ? I've just discovered Kauri boats and could have happily abandoned considering alloy or fiberglass,... if I'd gotten a shot at one of those. Fascinating boats. I've also recently heard of the technique of using the base metal's strips as filler rod in building alloy boats and would really appreciate any further information on this technique. I've only recently gotten TIG capability, not proficiency though :-) and want to learn all about this. Cordially, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > A good book on the subject is FIBREGLASS BOATS by Hugo Du Plessis > sounds like FG can fatigue quickly if its not strongly built (not a > big problem in most older cruising boats (pre oil crisis), but watch > any hard spots ie garboards around the sole and around bulkheads, > more worrying is hydrolysis of the resin which seems to be caused by > even cured resin slowly disoving in the water and may not show up as > osmosis blisters until the dammage has been done. Epoxys and stuff > only slows water absorbsion but does not stop it. > > The problem I found with my FG boat was the drying time, after haul > out you felt that you should leave the boat to dry out before > tackling any repairs, at least with steel or alloy you can get stuck > in straight away. > > An unmentioned advantage to alloy is that it is boatyard and marina > friendly, down in Aus and NZ seems that the mention of the words > grinder or welding steel gets a big 'sorry you can't do that here' > leaving only comercial yards at high expense. > > Many small alloy runabouts are being built down here but the > scuttlebut is that the only way to go are 'Plate boats' with very > thick skins ie 4mm for a 16 foot runabout and 10mm for a 30 foot > workboat (meta worked this out years ago!) Many comercial guys are > swiching back to steel for their displacement workboats. Some of the > french boats seem to be built using TIG with strips cut from the > parent metal as filler rod. > > cheers > > Ben > > > http://www.hotvac.com/what/default.asp > http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/books/fb.htm > http://www.barcrusher.com.au/homemain.htm > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca | 4116|3977|2004-06-09 01:23:54|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Steel Catamaran|Brothers in Law and welding propane tanks..... funny this should come up. My brother in law, Grant Adlington, owns the Pacific Coaster now in Mill Bay on the island. its 260 (ish) tons over 89'. He bought it from the insurance comapany after it went down off Gabriola Island about 6 years ago & completely rebuilt her. anyway, he build about 120' of really scookum docks from propane tanks with 12" tubes holding them together. Propane being heavier than air, all you would have to do is open up the inspection plate & roll them so the opening is down & let it run out. Might be an idea not to smoke in the area for a while. your nose is very sensative to the rotten egg smell in propane so no smell & welding is safe though a breeze thru the tank wouldn't hurt then again, maybe someone elses brother in law... SR -- audeojude wrote: --------------------------------- :) damn.... no brother in law here..... so much for that idea :) I don't think splitting the tanks would be that good of an idea. It kind of 1) kills the savings in time of using a already existing structure. 2) weakens the basic shape to where you would have to build an entire support framework inside the hull. 3) you would have to find tanks about 15 ft in diameter if you wanted to have usable standing headroom inside. just my opinion though scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > I like Phil's idea of splitting the tanks thereby getting 1 boat > out of 1 tank.With steel prices being high maybe the cost of the tank > (free?)would offset the possible problems.Speaking of which,after > putting in my $.02 worth in the shantyboat site I looked around and > found this about welding propane tanks.The directions are sort of > involved but it's worth it....Go to Google.Above the search bar > hit "Groups".Enter "welding" and then search.Under "related groups" > click"sci.engr.joining.welding".Click on "search only in > sci.engr.etc.",enter "propane tanks" and then search.The best advice > I found there on the safest way to cut open or weld a propane tank > was to let your brother-in-law do it. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4117|3977|2004-06-09 01:37:17|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Steel Catamaran|If you go to the Lynwood marina in North Van & then past there, right under the 2nd narrows bridge (in Vancouver) you will find on the dock just to the east of the bridge a small (40'?) barge/boat built out of used propane tanks. he moored there last year. its a working boat If you go to Cherry Point marina in Cowichan Bay, last november or december they bought 2 x 60' long propane tanks they use for breakwaters. Aparently there were more tanks available. the owner of the marina who lives on site would know who to contact. seem to remember a price of $15k/pr but they should be worth $2k each. Try the brokers Good Luck Shane --- audeojude wrote: --------------------------------- Anyone have any recomendations on where to find used tanks that we can check on prices for ones that might be suitable to adapt to a hull? Scott I agree brent, I'm not sure why it hasn't been done much before. You would think that a tank designed to withstand it's own weight and the weight of its contents would but more than strong enough to support its mostly empty weight floating in the water. :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Ongolo said it well when he said that all new ideas go thru threee > stages. First , it's ridiculed. Second , it's violently opposed. > Third, it's self evident.I've always been surprised that old tanks > aren't used more often in the way you describe. > Brent > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4118|4118|2004-06-09 08:39:37|sharadsharma@setarnet.aw|Re: Digest Number 833|Hello Shane, Do what i did go to the origimai group and change ur settings to one consolidated mail per day what u will get is only one mail so u do not have to go through 80 only one mail. regards Sharad| 4119|3977|2004-06-09 09:17:19|audeojude|Re: Steel Catamaran|Yep, I had this talk over on the houseboatbuilding or shantyboat group a while back about working on propane tanks. Draining out bottom was first recommendation and then washing out interiour with high pressure water. Also to keep the tank continously ventilated while working on it. I have wondered if one of the organic cleansers that are used to get out the scent of where pets have peed would take out scent of propane. There is a guy on the houseboatbuilding or shantyboat groups that posted pictures of a houseboat he built using propane tanks as the floats. He did a real nice job. here is links to posts he described it in. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/houseboatbuilding/message/997 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/houseboatbuilding/message/1009 here is link to photos of it. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/houseboatbuilding/lst?.dir=/The+Log+Cabin+Houseboat+-+%27Water+Logged%27&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/ scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Brothers in Law and welding propane tanks..... funny > this should come up. My brother in law, Grant > Adlington, owns the Pacific Coaster now in Mill Bay on > the island. its 260 (ish) tons over 89'. He bought it > from the insurance comapany after it went down off > Gabriola Island about 6 years ago & completely rebuilt > her. > > anyway, he build about 120' of really scookum docks > from propane tanks with 12" tubes holding them > together. > > Propane being heavier than air, all you would have to > do is open up the inspection plate & roll them so the > opening is down & let it run out. > > Might be an idea not to smoke in the area for a while. > > your nose is very sensative to the rotten egg smell in > propane so no smell & welding is safe though a breeze > thru the tank wouldn't hurt > > then again, maybe someone elses brother in law... > > SR > | 4120|4109|2004-06-09 10:28:49|woodcraftssuch|Re: Compressor size?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > I am in the process of buying a compressor to sand blast my hull. I am > looking at a Wayne/Dresser unit with two five cylinder compressors. > The two running together put out 255 cubic feet per minute. Would > running one of the compressors be enough? What size nozzle and hose > should I buy? I plan on using a 55 gallon propane tank as the sand > container. Is that large enough or will I be filling it more than > blasting? > Gerald In the 70's I had a job with a sandblaster where we blasted fuel storage tanks at 'tank farms'like Standard Oil etc.Ingersoll-Rand compressors,1 was 60 c.f.m. and used for spray painting, the other was a 600 c.f.m. with a 1" nozzle and used for blasting.When I left I bought the smaller comp. and went into sandblasting for myself, doing smaller tanks,cars,and a lot of houseboats.You have to size the nozzle so you can keep 90-100 psi pressure at the nozzle and the pressure at the nozzle has to stay constant,not fluctuating as the compressor kicks in and out.I seem to remember a 1/4" nozzle kept the 60 cfm. comp. running just right, where it didn't kick in and out but rarely,if at all. A place like Ingersoll-Rand can tell you what size nozzle and hose you will need for the cfm. you have available and will sell you the equipment for a serious amount of money.In my own case that was not a concern as I had no money and so made all the equipment myself.For the sand tank I used a 100# propane tank,one of those upright ones about 1' in dia. and 4' tall.I put a post in here last week under 'steel catamaran' pertaining to cutting and welding propane tanks,read that first before fartin' around with one.The short story of my experience making my sand tank is, first there was a wooomph! followed by a blue afterburner like flame accompanied by a horrendous shreiking noise which brought the neighbors out, and I lived way out in the country. It made a fine sand tank tho and held about 250# of sand,which was plenty to shoot between breaks.The 1"i.d. rubber hose I got from a farm supply place,I don't believe it was anything special,rubber/cloth/rubber layup rated for a couple hundred # pressure,it might have been sprayer hose.The nozzle was a 10" length of iron pipe slipped inside the rubber hose,clamped,then reduced to a 1/4" i.d. pipe.You have to look at a "real" sandblast tank carefully before you can make one as the whole operation is a combination of pressure/suction/gravity which took me a lot of diddly time to get right.If you don't have much use for the system, you would be much better off renting the whole thing, compressor and all.Don't forget the air-supplied hood for yourself, powdered bottom paint is nasty to inhale.I could generally blast a med. sized (12x45) houseboat in 1 day to bare metal, which had to be immediately painted or rust would start overnight.You didn't say what your hull was made of.The rate that different paints could be removed was highly variable and there was no easy way to tell besides just doing it.| 4121|4087|2004-06-09 15:08:32|brentswain38|Re: Vicious weather helm?!|I cruised my last boat without an engine for three years including a trip to Tahiti and back. Learned a lot I'd never have learned otherwise, but for the windless BC coast, I'm glad to have a diesel. When I left a couple of 20 litre fuel jugs in the back of my cockpit empty my speed under power increased by half a knot. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > As far as weight aft, I sail without an engine. If you have the > skills to sail without engine assistance - then you will not beleive > how much better your boat will sail without that weight aft, and that > prop dragging. Gives you more stowage space as well. Of course an > Engines provide a way for the idiot "Cruising World" retiree type > motor-sailing the world on their "wondrous fifty footer" to start > sailing and learn all the bad habits associated with someone who > learns to motor-sail rather than sail. > BCC has a vicious weather helm? Not something I would assoicate with > Lyle Hess designs - but hey, if you have sailed on a few BCC's, or > know of people that have sailed on a few BCC's that have vicious > weather helm - then I am not gonna argue. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I > wouildn't > > reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder > and > > fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you > > least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the > > engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even > > more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra > > work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of > > lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage > > of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a > > boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol > > channel cutters are known for. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > > wrote: > > > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs > > (loaded). > > > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > > > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > > > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > > > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that > running > > > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > > > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > > > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > > > this? > > > Any ideas greeted with thanks. | 4122|4104|2004-06-09 15:13:18|brentswain38|Gerr|There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads on boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over a short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a steel hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many decades, and are still in use. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while quite" young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by flexing over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brentswain38 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail Magazine > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all steel > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether well > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel boats in > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > So much for Gerr. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make sense, it > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice about > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a good > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a dry > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, > have owned them since new and would not part with them. Fibreglass > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, it > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I am > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of the > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood has > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, a > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters into > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience with a > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > metals > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > born every minute) > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > together my next boat > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > other members?? > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > with some people going on about > > - fibreglass > > - financing > > - real estate > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > actually) > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > that > > > > Thanks > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4123|4087|2004-06-09 15:18:00|brentswain38|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|I use an Isuzu which is rated at 22 HP continuous. It replaced a 10 HP and the difference was not all that great. I used the ten horse for 12 years and I could have lived with the ten HP if it weren't such a noisy air cooled shaker. I've heard a lot of complaints about Hurth trannies and good news about Twin Disc trannies, which are the same dimensions, cheaper and much better built. the Twin Disc 360 is supposedly a good tranny. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Speaking of engine weight as regards the 31 with bilge keels, what in your > opinion is the right diesel engine size for that boat? Do you know of a > marine transmission that saves weight while still giving long, durable, and > reliable service? > > Best, > Joe > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:29 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high > lattitude sailing? > > One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I wouildn't > reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder and > fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you > least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the > engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even > more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra > work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of > lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage > of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a > boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol > channel cutters are known for. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > wrote: > > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs > (loaded). > > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running > > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > > this? > > Any ideas greeted with thanks. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 4124|4109|2004-06-09 15:34:40|brentswain38|Re: Compressor size?|Gerald Sounds like a good combination. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > I am in the process of buying a compressor to sand blast my hull. I am > looking at a Wayne/Dresser unit with two five cylinder compressors. > The two running together put out 255 cubic feet per minute. Would > running one of the compressors be enough? What size nozzle and hose > should I buy? I plan on using a 55 gallon propane tank as the sand > container. Is that large enough or will I be filling it more than > blasting? > Gerald | 4125|3915|2004-06-09 15:38:10|brentswain38|Re: frames, and alloy/steel|I do all my work on the beach at remote anchorages. The rules and regulations are one of the reasons I've never paid to tie up in a marina in the last 20 years. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hello Michael > > Yes Steel can be repaired anywhere, except near other Yachts. Most > marinas and Slipways down here now have a blanket ban on Grinding > Steel and Sandblasting. And Fair enough Because I wouldn't wont > someone grinding next to my boat if it was all painted up nice (right > now they could do what they like!). > > Have those of you that have had Steel yachts for a while had any > Problems getting work like sandblasting and stuff done? I have been > Politely refused at two slipways because I Told them I needed to weld > (and therefore Grind). Should have kept my mouth shut, but It's kind > of hard to hide the sound of a grinder, and then Id only make it > harder for the next Guy. They are all happy to let you do regular > stuff like paint and sand. > > The Cheap Yachty places (AUD$3-14 per day) down here that will allow > sandblasting Ashore are few and far between and diminishing daily. > > Places That you can do major work on a steel boat can be found,with a > bit of sluthing around but they can be awkward or out of the way, or > expensive. Mostly not good for living Aboard. Fishing boat places are > seem the best bet (around $50 per day). > > Im lucky here that I can use the Maritime college wharf in the > weekends to do alot of the Grinding and welding on deck, and then > return to the Marina during the week. Even Being carefull i've gotten > some grinding dust on my friends Yacht moored 20 feet away. If I > didn't have this berth I'd have to buy a petrol genset and work of a > mooring. > > All this really is a very minor factor on a well built steel boat and > it only really affects us stupid enough to liveaboard and do major > rebuilds while working at the same time. I Plan to Build the next > boat out of Steel, But I will make sure the Deck Plan is Spot on and > plenty of Stainless is used Before I Launch, Or that I have a > conveinent work berth. > > Of course if your sensible and pay a yard to do the work it becomes > easy anywhere! > > Cheers > > Ben > > > Ben, what about Steel Boats in Auckland, there used to be plenty of > facilities for getting steel or alloy boats repaired. I have photos > of one of the around the world boats being repaired by volunteers > over the Christmas holidays. It was an alloy boat. Michael > > | 4126|4087|2004-06-09 15:53:05|Joe Casey|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|Hi Brent, Thanks for that useful information. Which transmission reduction ratio works best with your engine size and which shaft diameter is optimum? Also, what prop diameter and pitch have you found works best with 22 HP? Regards, Joe -----Original Message----- From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@...] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:18 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing? I use an Isuzu which is rated at 22 HP continuous. It replaced a 10 HP and the difference was not all that great. I used the ten horse for 12 years and I could have lived with the ten HP if it weren't such a noisy air cooled shaker. I've heard a lot of complaints about Hurth trannies and good news about Twin Disc trannies, which are the same dimensions, cheaper and much better built. the Twin Disc 360 is supposedly a good tranny. Brent -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Speaking of engine weight as regards the 31 with bilge keels, what in your > opinion is the right diesel engine size for that boat? Do you know of a > marine transmission that saves weight while still giving long, durable, and > reliable service? > > Best, > Joe > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:29 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high > lattitude sailing? > > One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I wouildn't > reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder and > fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you > least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the > engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even > more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra > work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of > lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage > of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a > boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol > channel cutters are known for. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > wrote: > > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs > (loaded). > > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that running > > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > > this? > > Any ideas greeted with thanks. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4127|4127|2004-06-09 16:13:17|De Clarke|twin bilge keel stability/handling|just curious -- those who have built twin bilge keel origami boats in the 7-10 ton range, what kind of ballast did you use, and what was your approx ballast to total displacement ratio? how does the twin keel boat with shallow draft compare to a conventional deep V or wineglass form for stability, pointing, footing? I sorta know the score in a gut way for conventional and modern cutaway hulls but not for a design as "different" as t-b-k hulls. those who have actually built and sailed them, can you enlighten the novice? are these boats stiff or tender? how much ballast does it take to make them stiff? how much leeway do they make? are they easy or difficult to keep head to wind? any tips on best sail trim, etc? de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 4128|4109|2004-06-09 16:17:50|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Compressor size?|>>>>>>"I could generally blast a med. sized (12x45) houseboat in 1 day to bare metal, which had to be immediately painted or rust would start overnight.You didn't say what your hull was made of.The rate that different paints could be removed was highly variable and there was no easy way to tell besides just doing it."<<<<<< Thanks for the comments. You have given be some renewed faith in what I believed but was talked out of. A friend that blasted a 36' steel boat blasted away for 20 days. That just didn't register with me that it would take me that kind of time to blast my brand new 36' steel hull. I believe he was using a wimp compressor and removing epoxy. He also bought 10 cubic meters or about 350 cubic feet of sand. I am also dealing on a flame spray outfit and plan to blast an area and flame spray that area the same day. It will take as long as it takes. I will also need to take into account the learning curve for Tito, my hire man. His normal routine is feeding chickens, goats, and cutting the grass. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > > > I am in the process of buying a compressor to sand blast my hull. I > am > > looking at a Wayne/Dresser unit with two five cylinder compressors. > > The two running together put out 255 cubic feet per minute. Would > > running one of the compressors be enough? What size nozzle and hose > > should I buy? I plan on using a 55 gallon propane tank as the sand > > container. Is that large enough or will I be filling it more than > > blasting? > > Gerald > > In the 70's I had a job with a sandblaster where we blasted fuel > storage tanks at 'tank farms'like Standard Oil etc.Ingersoll-Rand > compressors,1 was 60 c.f.m. and used for spray painting, the other > was a 600 c.f.m. with a 1" nozzle and used for blasting.When I left I > bought the smaller comp. and went into sandblasting for myself, doing > smaller tanks,cars,and a lot of houseboats.You have to size the > nozzle so you can keep 90-100 psi pressure at the nozzle and the > pressure at the nozzle has to stay constant,not fluctuating as the > compressor kicks in and out.I seem to remember a 1/4" nozzle kept the > 60 cfm. comp. running just right, where it didn't kick in and out but > rarely,if at all. A place like Ingersoll-Rand can tell you what size > nozzle and hose you will need for the cfm. you have available and > will sell you the equipment for a serious amount of money.In my own > case that was not a concern as I had no money and so made all the > equipment myself.For the sand tank I used a 100# propane tank,one of > those upright ones about 1' in dia. and 4' tall.I put a post in here > last week under 'steel catamaran' pertaining to cutting and welding > propane tanks,read that first before fartin' around with one.The > short story of my experience making my sand tank is, first there was > a wooomph! followed by a blue afterburner like flame accompanied by a > horrendous shreiking noise which brought the neighbors out, and I > lived way out in the country. It made a fine sand tank tho and held > about 250# of sand,which was plenty to shoot between breaks.The > 1"i.d. rubber hose I got from a farm supply place,I don't believe it > was anything special,rubber/cloth/rubber layup rated for a couple > hundred # pressure,it might have been sprayer hose.The nozzle was a > 10" length of iron pipe slipped inside the rubber hose,clamped,then > reduced to a 1/4" i.d. pipe.You have to look at a "real" sandblast > tank carefully before you can make one as the whole operation is a > combination of pressure/suction/gravity which took me a lot of diddly > time to get right.If you don't have much use for the system, you > would be much better off renting the whole thing, compressor and > all.Don't forget the air-supplied hood for yourself, powdered bottom > paint is nasty to inhale.I could generally blast a med. sized (12x45) > houseboat in 1 day to bare metal, which had to be immediately painted > or rust would start overnight.You didn't say what your hull was made > of.The rate that different paints could be removed was highly > variable and there was no easy way to tell besides just doing it. | 4129|4104|2004-06-09 18:12:12|spencerj71|Gerr|Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness over time. I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the water, it eventually ceases to exist. I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the original pieces. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads on > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over a > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a steel > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many decades, > and are still in use. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while quite" > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by flexing > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: brentswain38 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail Magazine > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > steel > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether well > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel boats > in > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > So much for Gerr. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > wrote: > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > sense, it > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > about > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > good > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with a > dry > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on the > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C 30 > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about them, > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > Fibreglass > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples hearts, > it > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. I > am > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any of > the > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > has > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an aluminum, > a > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > into > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed two > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > with a > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > metals > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > born every minute) > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > together my next boat > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > other members?? > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > with some people going on about > > > - fibreglass > > > - financing > > > - real estate > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > actually) > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > that > > > > > > Thanks > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > ---------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4130|4104|2004-06-09 20:05:02|kendall|Gerr|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > over time. > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > original pieces. > > > - Spencer I had an air compressor like that once, moter blew, changed it, compressor went out, changed it, then decided to go with a bigger tank, never could make up my mind whether it could rightfully be called the same compressor! on the corrosion issue, I never did agree with the 'X' percent issue, if rust penetrates 1/16", it's 50% with 1/8inch steel, but nowhere near 50% with 1/2 inch, so figureing x percent, is going to leave a lot of people walking up to empty docks. merc.| 4131|4131|2004-06-09 21:27:52|Mike|bc_welders group|I have formed the bc_welders group and welcome interested local members of origamiboats to join. The home page is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bc_welders The group is located in the directory, under "British Columbia". The group e-mail is: bc_welders@yahoogroups.com| 4132|4104|2004-06-09 23:17:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Gerr|A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "spencerj71" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > over time. > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > original pieces. > > > - Spencer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads > on > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over > a > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a > steel > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > decades, > > and are still in use. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > quite" > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > flexing > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > > denis > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: brentswain38 > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > Magazine > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > > steel > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether > well > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel > boats > > in > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > So much for Gerr. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > wrote: > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > > sense, it > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > > about > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > > good > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with > a > > dry > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on > the > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C > 30 > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about > them, > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > Fibreglass > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > hearts, > > it > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. > I > > am > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any > of > > the > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > > has > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > aluminum, > > a > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > > into > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed > two > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > > with a > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > metals > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > with some people going on about > > > > - fibreglass > > > > - financing > > > > - real estate > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > that > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > > ---------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4133|4104|2004-06-10 03:35:05|Gerd|Gerr|So my steel might just simply disappear overnight - reassuring. More interestingly: if the universe expands, does that mean that our boats are getting bigger all the time?????? ;-) Gerd The YAGO PROJECT at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "spencerj71" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > > over time. > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > > original pieces. > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads > > on > > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over > > a > > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a > > steel > > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > > decades, > > > and are still in use. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > > quite" > > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > > flexing > > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > > > denis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > > Magazine > > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > > > steel > > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether > > well > > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel > > boats > > > in > > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > > So much for Gerr. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > > > sense, it > > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > > > about > > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > > > good > > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with > > a > > > dry > > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on > > the > > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C > > 30 > > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about > > them, > > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > > Fibreglass > > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > > hearts, > > > it > > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. > > I > > > am > > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any > > of > > > the > > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > > > has > > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > > aluminum, > > > a > > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > > > into > > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed > > two > > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > > > with a > > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > > metals > > > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > > with some people going on about > > > > > - fibreglass > > > > > - financing > > > > > - real estate > > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > -- > > > ---------- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4134|3915|2004-06-10 10:16:16|willmarsh3|Re: frames, and alloy/steel|I have a steel boat on the East coast. When I was on the Chesapeake they allowed metal grinding in the boat yard but not sandblasting. One place I know of that did sandblasting and that was Ospreys, Inc at Herrington Harbor North in Deale, MD. Now I have the boat in north Alabama on the Tennessee river and many of the marinas/boatyards don't allow owners to do any DIY work on their boat when it is hauled out. Only a few marinas have travelifts big enough to haul my boat out, too. The marinas claim "we don't allow DIY due to insurance regulations". As there are a lot of towboats on the Tennessee I figure there are a few places for hauling out/repairing towboats but I havn't found one yet. What I'm thinking of doing is getting a portable gas powered waterblast (power wash) with sand pickup to do my blasting and taking the boat out on the water (to do deck repairs). I was wondering what psi the power washer needs to be to remove rust and clean the metal this way and what sort of antirust to put in the water. I'd rather it be something safe for the environment. Also any special things I need to know about power washer blasting? There were posts a while back about powerwashers but no mention of PSI requirements. Thanks, Will. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I do all my work on the beach at remote anchorages. The rules and > regulations are one of the reasons I've never paid to tie up in a > marina in the last 20 years. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > Hello Michael > > > > Yes Steel can be repaired anywhere, except near other Yachts. Most > > marinas and Slipways down here now have a blanket ban on Grinding > > Steel and Sandblasting. And Fair enough Because I wouldn't wont > > someone grinding next to my boat if it was all painted up nice > (right > > now they could do what they like!). > > > > Have those of you that have had Steel yachts for a while had any > > Problems getting work like sandblasting and stuff done? I have been > > Politely refused at two slipways because I Told them I needed to > weld > > (and therefore Grind). Should have kept my mouth shut, but It's > kind > > of hard to hide the sound of a grinder, and then Id only make it > > harder for the next Guy. They are all happy to let you do regular > > stuff like paint and sand. > > > > The Cheap Yachty places (AUD$3-14 per day) down here that will > allow > > sandblasting Ashore are few and far between and diminishing daily. > > > > Places That you can do major work on a steel boat can be found,with > a > > bit of sluthing around but they can be awkward or out of the way, > or > > expensive. Mostly not good for living Aboard. Fishing boat places > are > > seem the best bet (around $50 per day). > > > > Im lucky here that I can use the Maritime college wharf in the > > weekends to do alot of the Grinding and welding on deck, and then > > return to the Marina during the week. Even Being carefull i've > gotten > > some grinding dust on my friends Yacht moored 20 feet away. If I > > didn't have this berth I'd have to buy a petrol genset and work of > a > > mooring. > > > > All this really is a very minor factor on a well built steel boat > and > > it only really affects us stupid enough to liveaboard and do major > > rebuilds while working at the same time. I Plan to Build the next > > boat out of Steel, But I will make sure the Deck Plan is Spot on > and > > plenty of Stainless is used Before I Launch, Or that I have a > > conveinent work berth. > > > > Of course if your sensible and pay a yard to do the work it becomes > > easy anywhere! > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > > > Ben, what about Steel Boats in Auckland, there used to be plenty > of > > facilities for getting steel or alloy boats repaired. I have photos > > of one of the around the world boats being repaired by volunteers > > over the Christmas holidays. It was an alloy boat. Michael > > > | 4135|4118|2004-06-10 12:13:59|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Digest Number 833|Hi Sharad, Good idea, will do & much appreciated! Cheers, Rock --- sharadsharma@... wrote: --------------------------------- Hello Shane, Do what i did go to the origimai group and change ur settings to one consolidated mail per day what u will get is only one mail so u do not have to go through 80 only one mail. regards Sharad To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4136|4104|2004-06-10 12:58:17|Michael Casling|Re: Gerr|It would seem a good barrier coat as required by some fiberglass boats would be a good idea. But I am sure that is what most folks are doing. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4137|4104|2004-06-10 13:24:13|Michael Casling|Re: Gerr|I think your interpretation of Dave Gerr is reasonable. I like the way he presents a balanced approach to all the materials. He has more than enough positive things to say about steel. If he did not mention the negatives he would probably be liable. Since your post we have had two other members ( from the US South and NZ ) talking about repairs and rust. To blindly ignore the obvious escapes me. May I say it again all materials have there negative side including steel. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: spencerj71 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness over time. I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the water, it eventually ceases to exist. I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the original pieces. - Spencer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4138|4104|2004-06-10 13:40:38|brentswain38|Gerr|All I've read by Gerr is the article in Sail Magazine which had some really nutty comments on steel. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > I think your interpretation of Dave Gerr is reasonable. I like the way he presents a balanced approach to all the materials. He has more than enough positive things to say about steel. If he did not mention the negatives he would probably be liable. Since your post we have had two other members ( from the US South and NZ ) talking about repairs and rust. To blindly ignore the obvious escapes me. May I say it again all materials have there negative side including steel. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: spencerj71 > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > over time. > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > original pieces. > > > - Spencer > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4139|4104|2004-06-10 13:41:35|brentswain38|Gerr|How does the steel get thinner without the paint falling off? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "spencerj71" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > > over time. > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > > original pieces. > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads > > on > > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over > > a > > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a > > steel > > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > > decades, > > > and are still in use. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > > quite" > > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > > flexing > > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > > > denis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > > Magazine > > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > > > steel > > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether > > well > > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel > > boats > > > in > > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > > So much for Gerr. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > > > sense, it > > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > > > about > > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > > > good > > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with > > a > > > dry > > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on > > the > > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C > > 30 > > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about > > them, > > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > > Fibreglass > > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > > hearts, > > > it > > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. > > I > > > am > > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any > > of > > > the > > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > > > has > > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > > aluminum, > > > a > > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > > > into > > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed > > two > > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > > > with a > > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > > metals > > > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > > with some people going on about > > > > > - fibreglass > > > > > - financing > > > > > - real estate > > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > -- > > > ---------- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4140|4104|2004-06-10 13:43:49|spencerj71|Gerr|I'll track down a copy. Maybe he's losing it. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > All I've read by Gerr is the article in Sail Magazine which had some > really nutty comments on steel. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > I think your interpretation of Dave Gerr is reasonable. I like the > way he presents a balanced approach to all the materials. He has more > than enough positive things to say about steel. If he did not mention > the negatives he would probably be liable. Since your post we have > had two other members ( from the US South and NZ ) talking about > repairs and rust. To blindly ignore the obvious escapes me. May I say > it again all materials have there negative side including steel. > Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: spencerj71 > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If > I > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes > negative. > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The > Elements > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. > I > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, > just > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult > to > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose > thickness > > over time. > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so > they > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; > 3) > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into > the > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had > certain > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. > Any > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will > last > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > > original pieces. > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4141|4109|2004-06-10 13:45:50|brentswain38|Re: Compressor size?|The bigger the compressor the better. If you hire a sandblaster ask him about the size of his compressor. People who have a 600 cfm compressor charge the same hourly rate as those who have a 200 cfm compresssor, but get the job done a lot faster. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > >>>>>>"I could generally blast a med. sized (12x45) > houseboat in 1 day to bare metal, which had to be immediately painted > or rust would start overnight.You didn't say what your hull was made > of.The rate that different paints could be removed was highly > variable and there was no easy way to tell besides just doing it."<<<<<< > > Thanks for the comments. You have given be some renewed faith in what > I believed but was talked out of. A friend that blasted a 36' steel > boat blasted away for 20 days. That just didn't register with me that > it would take me that kind of time to blast my brand new 36' steel > hull. I believe he was using a wimp compressor and removing epoxy. He > also bought 10 cubic meters or about 350 cubic feet of sand. > I am also dealing on a flame spray outfit and plan to blast an area > and flame spray that area the same day. It will take as long as it > takes. I will also need to take into account the learning curve for > Tito, my hire man. His normal routine is feeding chickens, goats, and > cutting the grass. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" > wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > > wrote: > > > > > > I am in the process of buying a compressor to sand blast my hull. I > > am > > > looking at a Wayne/Dresser unit with two five cylinder compressors. > > > The two running together put out 255 cubic feet per minute. Would > > > running one of the compressors be enough? What size nozzle and hose > > > should I buy? I plan on using a 55 gallon propane tank as the sand > > > container. Is that large enough or will I be filling it more than > > > blasting? > > > Gerald > > > > In the 70's I had a job with a sandblaster where we blasted fuel > > storage tanks at 'tank farms'like Standard Oil etc.Ingersoll-Rand > > compressors,1 was 60 c.f.m. and used for spray painting, the other > > was a 600 c.f.m. with a 1" nozzle and used for blasting.When I left I > > bought the smaller comp. and went into sandblasting for myself, doing > > smaller tanks,cars,and a lot of houseboats.You have to size the > > nozzle so you can keep 90-100 psi pressure at the nozzle and the > > pressure at the nozzle has to stay constant,not fluctuating as the > > compressor kicks in and out.I seem to remember a 1/4" nozzle kept the > > 60 cfm. comp. running just right, where it didn't kick in and out but > > rarely,if at all. A place like Ingersoll-Rand can tell you what size > > nozzle and hose you will need for the cfm. you have available and > > will sell you the equipment for a serious amount of money.In my own > > case that was not a concern as I had no money and so made all the > > equipment myself.For the sand tank I used a 100# propane tank,one of > > those upright ones about 1' in dia. and 4' tall.I put a post in here > > last week under 'steel catamaran' pertaining to cutting and welding > > propane tanks,read that first before fartin' around with one.The > > short story of my experience making my sand tank is, first there was > > a wooomph! followed by a blue afterburner like flame accompanied by a > > horrendous shreiking noise which brought the neighbors out, and I > > lived way out in the country. It made a fine sand tank tho and held > > about 250# of sand,which was plenty to shoot between breaks.The > > 1"i.d. rubber hose I got from a farm supply place,I don't believe it > > was anything special,rubber/cloth/rubber layup rated for a couple > > hundred # pressure,it might have been sprayer hose.The nozzle was a > > 10" length of iron pipe slipped inside the rubber hose,clamped,then > > reduced to a 1/4" i.d. pipe.You have to look at a "real" sandblast > > tank carefully before you can make one as the whole operation is a > > combination of pressure/suction/gravity which took me a lot of diddly > > time to get right.If you don't have much use for the system, you > > would be much better off renting the whole thing, compressor and > > all.Don't forget the air-supplied hood for yourself, powdered bottom > > paint is nasty to inhale.I could generally blast a med. sized (12x45) > > houseboat in 1 day to bare metal, which had to be immediately painted > > or rust would start overnight.You didn't say what your hull was made > > of.The rate that different paints could be removed was highly > > variable and there was no easy way to tell besides just doing it. | 4142|4127|2004-06-10 13:54:55|brentswain38|Re: twin bilge keel stability/handling|I've been sailing a 31 ft twin keeler for the last 20 years and several Pacific crossings.With the single keeler people have been able to pour lead around heavy chunks of steel, but the twin keelers don't have enough room in them for that.They make no more leeway than a single keeler as long as the keels are angled out 25 degrees from the vertical , making each one 100% more efficient in preventing leeway when the boat is heeled 25 degrees. They have the same stability as a single keeler of the same draft.In moderate winds they appear to have the same angle of heel as a single keeler. They sail almost as well to windward , losing at most 5% and have no trouble heeping their head up . I did two return trips fron Tonga in the last 5 years making it from Hawaii to BC in 23 days the first 1,00 miles to windward in 25 knot trade winds and most of the 5,000 miles from Tonga being to windward.They prefer not to be pinched too close to the wind ,and easing off a few degrees gives a huge increase in speed. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > just curious -- those who have built twin bilge keel origami > boats in the 7-10 ton range, what kind of ballast did you > use, and what was your approx ballast to total displacement > ratio? > > how does the twin keel boat with shallow draft compare to > a conventional deep V or wineglass form for stability, > pointing, footing? I sorta know the score in a gut > way for conventional and modern cutaway hulls but not for > a design as "different" as t-b-k hulls. > > those who have actually built and sailed them, can you > enlighten the novice? are these boats stiff or tender? > how much ballast does it take to make them stiff? how > much leeway do they make? are they easy or difficult to > keep head to wind? any tips on best sail trim, etc? > > de > > > .................................................................... ......... > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: | 4143|4087|2004-06-10 14:01:57|brentswain38|Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high lattitude sailing?|A 2 to 1 ratio works well with a 14 inch diameter prop witha 17 inch pitch. I use a 1 inch ( 25mm) shaft.I could use a 15 inch prop but don't have a big enough aperture. At any rate the slightly smaller prop means I can't over load the engine bucking a headsea. With a small engine in a heavy hull ,and slightly undersized prop , use a 55% slippage ratio. For a light hull with a lot of power and a larger prop, use a 45% slippage ratio in your calculations. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > Hi Brent, > > Thanks for that useful information. Which transmission reduction ratio works > best with your engine size and which shaft diameter is optimum? Also, what > prop diameter and pitch have you found works best with 22 HP? > > Regards, > Joe > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:18 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high > lattitude sailing? > > I use an Isuzu which is rated at 22 HP continuous. It replaced a 10 > HP and the difference was not all that great. I used the ten horse > for 12 years and I could have lived with the ten HP if it weren't > such a noisy air cooled shaker. > I've heard a lot of complaints about Hurth trannies and good news > about Twin Disc trannies, which are the same dimensions, cheaper and > much better built. the Twin Disc 360 is supposedly a good tranny. > Brent > > -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > > Hi Brent, > > > > Speaking of engine weight as regards the 31 with bilge keels, what > in your > > opinion is the right diesel engine size for that boat? Do you know > of a > > marine transmission that saves weight while still giving long, > durable, and > > reliable service? > > > > Best, > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: brentswain38 [mailto:brentswain38@h...] > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:29 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel yacht design- 28-30 foot for high > > lattitude sailing? > > > > One of my 31 footer's was built with a full length keel .I > wouildn't > > reccommend it as the weight of that extra plate btween thr rudder > and > > fin keel is around 300 lbs of extra weight in the stern ,where you > > least need it. The void it creates is totaly inaccesiblre under the > > engine and to far aft to be used for tankage, as it would be even > > more extra weight in the stern. It's a horrendous amount of extra > > work matching a full length keel to the hull. As the centre of > > lateral resistance moves foreward ,accordimg to speed, a percentage > > of the length of the keel, making a boat heave to well results in a > > boat with a vicious weather helm when sailing , something Bristol > > channel cutters are known for. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" > > wrote: > > > For a single-hander.About 11,000 lbs disp (light) 12,500 lbs > > (loaded). > > > Full Keel (with a cutaway forefoot?) > > > Must be a decnt performer to windward. > > > Must be able to heave to under tri-sail and/or parachute (as per > > > Pardey heavy weather method. I'm with the Pardey logic that > running > > > is more dangerous in the long run - but don't want to get into an > > > argument about heavy-weather tactics. > > > Brent Swain - if your out there - could you design something like > > > this? > > > Any ideas greeted with thanks. > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 4144|4104|2004-06-10 18:12:37|Larry Doyle|Re: Gerr|If water is made up of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, how could a molecule of water be smaller than a molecule of oxygen? Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "spencerj71" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > > over time. > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > > original pieces. > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads > > on > > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over > > a > > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a > > steel > > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > > decades, > > > and are still in use. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > > quite" > > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > > flexing > > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > > > denis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > > Magazine > > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > > > steel > > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether > > well > > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel > > boats > > > in > > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > > So much for Gerr. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > > > sense, it > > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > > > about > > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > > > good > > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with > > a > > > dry > > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on > > the > > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C > > 30 > > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about > > them, > > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > > Fibreglass > > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > > hearts, > > > it > > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. > > I > > > am > > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any > > of > > > the > > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > > > has > > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > > aluminum, > > > a > > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > > > into > > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed > > two > > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > > > with a > > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > > metals > > > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > > with some people going on about > > > > > - fibreglass > > > > > - financing > > > > > - real estate > > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > -- > > > ---------- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4145|4104|2004-06-10 18:45:12|spencerj71|Gerr|Oxygen as a gas is composed of 2 oxygen molecules. The oxygen molecule is made up of 8 protons, 8 neutrons and 8 electrons. The hydrogen molecule has only 1 of each. That means oxygen gas has a total of 16 protons, neutrons and electrons, while water only has 9. I think that its also important to note that O2 in the air doesn't cause corrosion. Its water vapor that does it. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Doyle" wrote: > If water is made up of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, how could a > molecule of water be smaller than a molecule of oxygen? > > Larry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers > years ago: > > > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from > reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, > passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. > It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is > reported to have said - maybe??? > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "spencerj71" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > > > over time. > > > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > > > original pieces. > > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > wrote: > > > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads > > > on > > > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > > > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > > > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over > > > a > > > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a > > > steel > > > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > > > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > > > decades, > > > > and are still in use. > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > > wrote: > > > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > > > quite" > > > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > > > flexing > > > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > > > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > > > > denis > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > > > Magazine > > > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > > > > steel > > > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether > > > well > > > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel > > > boats > > > > in > > > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > > > So much for Gerr. > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > > > > sense, it > > > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > > > > about > > > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > > > > good > > > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with > > > a > > > > dry > > > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on > > > the > > > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C > > > 30 > > > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about > > > them, > > > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > > > Fibreglass > > > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > > > hearts, > > > > it > > > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. > > > I > > > > am > > > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any > > > of > > > > the > > > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > > > > has > > > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > > > aluminum, > > > > a > > > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > > > > into > > > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed > > > two > > > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > > > > with a > > > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > > > metals > > > > > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > > > with some people going on about > > > > > > - fibreglass > > > > > > - financing > > > > > > - real estate > > > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > > -- > > > > ---------- > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > > of > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > | 4146|4104|2004-06-10 20:55:47|spencerj71|Gerr|Oops. I mean oxygen gas molecule is composed of 2 oxygen ATOMS. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Oxygen as a gas is composed of 2 oxygen molecules. The oxygen > molecule is made up of 8 protons, 8 neutrons and 8 electrons. The > hydrogen molecule has only 1 of each. That means oxygen gas has a > total of 16 protons, neutrons and electrons, while water only has 9. > > I think that its also important to note that O2 in the air doesn't > cause corrosion. Its water vapor that does it. > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Doyle" > wrote: > > If water is made up of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, how > could a > > molecule of water be smaller than a molecule of oxygen? > > > > Larry > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > > > > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few > beers > > years ago: > > > > > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule > from > > reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > > > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being > smaller, > > passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > > > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of > years. > > It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > > > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing > what Gerr is > > reported to have said - maybe??? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "spencerj71" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > > > > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. > If I > > > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes > negative. > > > > > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to > due > > > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The > Elements > > > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel > corrosion. I > > > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses > thickness, just > > > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are > difficult to > > > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such > that > > > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose > thickness > > > > over time. > > > > > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, > so they > > > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material > and; 3) > > > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel > into the > > > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had > certain > > > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to > corrosion. Any > > > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will > last > > > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of > the > > > > original pieces. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > > > wrote: > > > > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the > loads > > > > on > > > > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a > steel > > > > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, > which is > > > > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength > over > > > > a > > > > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of > a > > > > steel > > > > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > > > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete > bullshit , > > > > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > > > > decades, > > > > > and are still in use. > > > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > > > > quite" > > > > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > > > > flexing > > > > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal > losing a > > > > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . > regards > > > > > denis > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > > > > Magazine > > > > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that > all > > > > > steel > > > > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year > whether > > > > well > > > > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older > steel > > > > boats > > > > > in > > > > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > > > > So much for Gerr. > > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The > masses > > > > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always > make > > > > > sense, it > > > > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes > to the > > > > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something > nice > > > > > about > > > > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that > as a > > > > > good > > > > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass > boat with > > > > a > > > > > dry > > > > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass > on > > > > the > > > > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 > and C&C > > > > 30 > > > > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a > few > > > > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave > about > > > > them, > > > > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > > > > Fibreglass > > > > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > > > > hearts, > > > > > it > > > > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience > with one. > > > > I > > > > > am > > > > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with > any > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, > wood > > > > > has > > > > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > > > > aluminum, > > > > > a > > > > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff > enters > > > > > into > > > > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You > disclosed > > > > two > > > > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad > experience > > > > > with a > > > > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the > point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > > > > metals > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > > > > with some people going on about > > > > > > > - fibreglass > > > > > > > - financing > > > > > > > - real estate > > > > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- -- > ------ > > > > -- > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > > > of > > > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4147|4104|2004-06-10 21:18:14|audeojude|Gerr|Gerr seemed to take a fair and impartial stance in his book when I read it if I remember right. I haven't read the article in question though. Did Gerr write it or was it someone quoting him? I have found an appalling level of innacuracies in articles by press and magazines that quote people, both out of ignorance and agenda. I've also seen articles changed (edited) by the editors of publications in which they shorten it or lengthen the article to fit the layout in ways that modify the meaning or they can actually edit it to clean it up and make it more reflect their understanding of the subject all without the permission of the actuall author. The first thing the author knows about it is when they read it after it is published. Based on what I read in his book and brents description of the article maybe this could be an explination. lol or maybe Gerr just had a massive brain fart and didn't proof his article the one last time he needed to. I know there is many a time that only after I sent the final version off and then went back and read what I had written for the 5th time that I then caught a really stupid phrase or error after it was to late. Scott| 4148|4104|2004-06-11 02:49:33|sae140|Gerr|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com As someone has recently pointed out, gaseous oxygen (O2) will not cause rusting. Steel exposed to pure dionized oxygen (i.e. with zero humidity) will not rust. Rusting is an electro-chemical reaction which requires oxygen to be in the form of negative ions which proceed to react with iron's positive ions to form one of the iron oxides (there are a number of variants). The problem arises when iron oxide (rust) is formed, as the rust molecule is physically larger than that of the iron it replaces - so the rusted surface begins to expand, breaking the covering of paint or existing surface rust, and allowing even more rusting to occur underneath. This is precisely the rationale underpinning the blasting of steel - to remove every last trace of rust before applying a protective surface covering. Once rusting begins in an area, it will continue relentlessly, providing that moisture is available. In this process, water is best viewed as being H+ OH- and not the more usual H2O. Pure water is barely ionic, but will readily dissociate into it's ions when any kind of salts are added to it. Hence salt water is a far more corrosive medium than fresh water. In contast, aluminium oxide does not have the same expansion characteristic as iron oxide, and actually forms a protective covering, thus preventing further oxidation (at least in theory). My guess re: Gerr's statement about steel always losing a percentage of it's thickness: This idea probably has it's roots in the early days of iron ship construction, when extra thick iron or steel were indeed specified for precisely this reason - but these were the days of linseed-oil/ lead-based paints, when adhesion and surface porosity were facts of life that you simply lived with, and when chipping away rust was almost a daily task for the crews. But in these days of modern surface coverings, sweeping generalisations like this do no-one any favours and only serve to maintain out-dated prejudices. Colin| 4149|4104|2004-06-11 04:03:53|sae140|Gerr|Ah - just thought - if you want further proof that gaseous oxygen does not causing rusting ... just consider that gaseous oxygen is actually stored for extended periods in steel cylinders, and under significant pressure too (pressure accelerating chemical reactions !), but is so moisture-free that nebulisers (humidifiers) have to be employed when this stored gas is being used for medical purposes. Colin| 4150|4104|2004-06-11 04:05:02|denis buggy|Re: Gerr|dear brent it does not get thinner it gets fat it is called the rust diet . denis ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:41 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr How does the steel get thinner without the paint falling off? Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > A navy contractor in Honolulu explained it this way - over a few beers years ago: > > Paint prevents steel from rusting by blocking the oxygen molecule from reaching the steel. However, the oxygen molecule is a gas, > and larger than the water molecule. The water molecule, being smaller, passes thru the paint to reach the steel. Steel, being > slightly soluble in sea water, slowly dissolves over a period of years. It sounded so fantastic that I didn't think much of it at > the time - just another sailor wrecked by a bar - but hearing what Gerr is reported to have said - maybe??? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "spencerj71" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > Who's right and whose wrong aside, how can decreasing a number > > (strength) by 60% ever result in a negative number. Let's say a > > boat, ship, truck, whatever has a load carrying capacity of 100 > > tons. If I decrease 100 tons by 60%, I'm left with 40 tons. If I > > decrease the 40 tons by 60%, I have 16 tons left. If I again > > decrease by 60%, I'm left with 6.4 tons. This never becomes negative. > > > > I've never heard this 60% argument before. Does this have to due > > with fatigue strength? Last I knew, steel was the better than > > aluminum or plastic with regards to fatigue. > > > > I haven't seen the Sail Magazine, but I do have Gerr's "The Elements > > of Boat Strength", where he breifly touches on steel corrosion. I > > don't think he means to say that the whole hull loses thickness, just > > areas where corrosion occurs. He cites areas that are difficult to > > maintain, such as in the bilges at the base of bulkheads and > > longitudinals. Obviously if your vessel is constructed such that > > these areas can be easily painted, your less likely to lose thickness > > over time. > > > > I doubt that Mr. Gerr intended his corrosion rule of thumb to be > > interpereted into the negative range. It is a rule to give the > > builder or owner an idea of the level of corrosion over time, so they > > will be able to 1) have an adaquate hull thickness to allow for > > corrosion; 2) be aware of the need to maintain the material and; 3) > > be aware of when they may need to begin replacing badly corroded > > areas. I'm sure that Mr. Gerr is aware that you can't have a > > negative thickness. If we throw a piece of unpainted steel into the > > water, it eventually ceases to exist. > > > > I expect the older steel hulls of which you speak have had certain > > portions of their structure replaced over time due to corrosion. Any > > old boat will have had something replaced, rotted wood, pitted > > aluminum, corroded steel, cracked fiberglass, etc. A boat will last > > forever if we want it too, but we may not be left with any of the > > original pieces. > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > There is a huge difference btween the loads on ships and the loads > > on > > > boats under 40 ft. Gerr was claiming that the thickness of a steel > > > hull declines by several thou per year regardles of paint, which is > > > clearly absolute bullshit.If a ship loses 60% of her strength over > > a > > > short time, then over a relatively short time the strength of a > > steel > > > hull will become a negative number ,in which case they would > > > disintegrate on the spot, which is also clearly complete bullshit , > > > given the number of steel hulls which have ben used for many > > decades, > > > and are still in use. > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > > > > DEAR BRENT as you probably know many ships break up while > > quite" > > > young " some lose 60% of their structural strength merely by > > flexing > > > over a relatively short time . mr Gerr claim of metal losing a > > > skin per year is born out in other books on steel boats . regards > > > denis > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: brentswain38 > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:20 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > Gerr's dumping on steel boats in a recent issue of Sail > > Magazine > > > > gives him a serious credibility problem. He claimed that all > > > steel > > > > boats lose a certain amount of thickness every year whether > > well > > > > painted or not. According to his figures , many older steel > > boats > > > in > > > > perfect condition today would have a minus hull thickness. > > > > So much for Gerr. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > I find the delete button works well and is easier. The masses > > > > usually purchase what they want and it does not always make > > > sense, it > > > > is not supposed to. I defer to David Gerr when it comes to the > > > > strength of materials, he has a way of saying something nice > > > about > > > > all materials without unduly dumping on any. I view that as a > > > good > > > > approach. I would be pleased to show you a fibreglass boat with > > a > > > dry > > > > bilge and cleats strong enough to tow a boat. I will pass on > > the > > > > multi hull comments. There are more than enough C&C 27 and C&C > > 30 > > > > boats providing good service to their owners, there are a few > > > > thousand Tanzer 22's with owners that love them, rave about > > them, > > > > have owned them since new and would not part with them. > > > Fibreglass > > > > boats do have a place in the market place and in peoples > > hearts, > > > it > > > > may be unfortunate that you have had a bad experience with one. > > I > > > am > > > > sure that some other folks have had a bad experience with any > > of > > > the > > > > building materials. Aluminum has split, steel has rusted, wood > > > has > > > > rotted, glass has blistered. I have a cedar strip, an > > aluminum, > > > a > > > > rubber ducky and a fiberglass boat. The personal stuff enters > > > into > > > > the discussions because that is the way we are. You disclosed > > two > > > > things about yourself with your post, you had a bad experience > > > with a > > > > fiberglass boat, and a multihull. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: SHANE ROTHWELL > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:10 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Please Stick to the point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find it most disconcerting that some people seem to > > > > > have some kind of love afair with fibreglass. > > > > > > > > > > True, it is what has been pushed on the masses as a > > > > > wonderful product, which for some applications it is, > > > > > but certianly not for building a hull. > > > > > > > > > > Having had and completely rebuilt a Roberts designed > > > > > Norfolk 43', putting literally one tonne of glass in > > > > > her, I can tell you from hard earned experience that > > > > > glass is quite simply a suckers bet. > > > > > > > > > > When you consider that the strength of steel compared > > > > > to any other material (with the possible exeption of > > > > > alloy?) is 17:1, what informed man would consider any > > > > > material other than metal for a boat? > > > > > > > > > > Steel is cheaper, easier to work with, less > > > > > maintainance, faster to build (thanks to people like > > > > > Brent Swain) and much much stronger (17:1) than any > > > > > other material with the possible exeption of other > > > > > metals > > > > > > > > > > Glass espcially is a nightmare. show me a glass boat > > > > > that doesent have a wet bilge and leaks from every > > > > > deck fitting - or one with a single cleat aboard that > > > > > can be used for towing in anything other than the > > > > > lightest of conditins.....Oh but it looks so > > > > > pretty....(Jack Barnum was right, there is a sucker > > > > > born every minute) > > > > > > > > > > It's almost as bad as multihulls, fine for playing > > > > > around inshore and lots of fun, but for offshore just > > > > > irresponsible & dangerous. I've done it & seen what > > > > > they do in a blow, scary as hell! > > > > > > > > > > It's like having a gas engine in a glass boat. Very > > > > > simply.....dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > I am a new member to this forum but have been around > > > > > boats for 'a while'..... Now getting ready to put > > > > > together my next boat > > > > > > > > > > Is this forum not for learning more about what works, > > > > > different systems & the sharing of information with > > > > > other members?? > > > > > > > > > > It is an EXELLENT forum, but yesterday I had 82 emails > > > > > with some people going on about > > > > > - fibreglass > > > > > - financing > > > > > - real estate > > > > > - multihulls (one like a sailing barge & cool > > > > > actually) > > > > > > > > > > Keeping others updated as to a build, related > > > > > equipment, sources, tech info, bits for sale & even a > > > > > brief G'day mate here's my direct email address & lets > > > > > switch to a private chanel for the personal stuff... > > > > > all good, but where does it get any of us reading > > > > > through reams and reams of personal & unrelated stuff? > > > > > > > > > > Notice the way Brent communicates? informed and to the > > > > > point. doesent waver off of the subject. got to like > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > -- > > > ---------- > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4151|4151|2004-06-11 10:52:56|Phil S.|Auto Pilot|So far the planing for my Troller Origami (Origami Troller?) is looking into a cable rudder system, with a trim tab. Could I use the same type of self stearing vane that the sail boats use? Or do I need to go back and plan on some kind of Hydraulic system so I can use an off the shelf Auto Pilot? Phil| 4152|4104|2004-06-11 12:30:50|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Gerr|Sounds like the jury is still out - with corrosion still referred to as a theory. http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Principles/Theory.htm As noted, it could all be eye wash. However, I've seen enough good work from Gerr that I'd want to know more, rather than dismiss his comments out of hand. He is not a big fan of steel. http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4108 In SE Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia) sand blasting is not available/permitted except in a few specialized shipyards, which charge big $$ accordingly. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com| 4153|4104|2004-06-11 12:54:48|Michael Casling|Re: Gerr|The article in Ocean Navigator is likely similar to the article Brent is quoting. He is talking about a reduction of thickness over time but does point out that some boats will perform better if built and treated carefully, and the problem occurs in hidden places. I read the article in the magazine and concluded that I would prefer aluminum, but it is the weight that motivates me the most. Just a note back to barrier coats for plastic boats and their effectiveness. There are a variety of products that will stop the water getting to the hull. I have POR15 on my fiberglass hull and it works well. It drys very smooth. Ocean Navigator has a two part article on hull blisters in the last two issues that talks a lot about different resins. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr Sounds like the jury is still out - with corrosion still referred to as a theory. http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Principles/Theory.htm As noted, it could all be eye wash. However, I've seen enough good work from Gerr that I'd want to know more, rather than dismiss his comments out of hand. He is not a big fan of steel. http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4108 In SE Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia) sand blasting is not available/permitted except in a few specialized shipyards, which charge big $$ accordingly. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4154|3612|2004-06-11 13:43:18|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Steel versus alloy, file upload|Why an alloy mast makes a boat "tender" might be explained by this article, under Roll Period: http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/design.htm ROLL PERIOD ... The general rule of thumb is that boats with periods less than 4 seconds are stiff and periods greater than 8 seconds are tender. Assuming the alloy mast was lighter than steel, adding the longer alloy mast increased the roll period by moving the mass further from CB, increasing the inertia, which slowed the roll period. This would appear to make the boat more tender, but it would be more resistant to capsize (and more comfortable). This is possible, because inertia varies as the square of the distance. Thus, holding a 4 lb object 1 foot away has the same inertia as a 1 lb object, held 2 feet away. In fact, you can add a longer, lighter mast, and improve both dynamic and static stability at the same time. 300 lb x 47 foot steel mast - static = -14100, dynamic = 220900 250 lb x 53 foot alloy mast - static = -13250, dynamic = 234083 (static is negative because the mast is working against the keel, to capsize the boat, so a smaller negative number is better) In this case, a 260 lb, 53 foot alloy mast would have better static and dynamic stability than a 47 foot, 300 lb steel mast. The boat would roll slower, likely be more comfortable, more resistant to capsize, and be able to carry more sail. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:35 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Steel versus alloy, file upload A friend who put a 52 ft aluminium mast on a 36 footer complained that the boat was a bit tender. Others who used a 46 ft steel mast in the same design had no such complaints. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Moment of inertia is given by I = MR^2. > > For a 36 foot steel boat, you have about 5 tons of steel in the hull and deck, 2.25 tons of lead and steel in the keel, and .25 tons in the rig. R for the rig averages about 25, for the keel about 5, and for the hull about 4. > > The following are some quick approximations. > > I for the rig is approx .25*(25*25) = 160 foot foot tons. > > I for keel is approx 2.25*(5*5) = 55 foot foot tons. > > I for the hull is approx 5*(4*4) = 80 foot foot tons. > > The inertia in the hull is significant. > > Because dynamic stability varies as the square, while static stability is linear, you get a much greater increase in dynamic stability for a given static stability, by installing a longer mast in place of a heavier mast. > > For example. Take 2 masts. One 50 feet long in steel weighing 300 lbs, and one 60 feet long in alloy weighing 250 lbs. > > static stability steel = 50*300 = 15000 ft lbs > static stability alloy = 60*250 = 15000 ft lbs. > > Both these mast have the same static stability. > > I steel = 1/3 ML^2 = 1/3*300*50*50 = 250000 = 125 foot foot tons > I alloy = 1/3 ML^2 = 1/3*250*60*60 = 300000 = 150 foot foot tons. > > (for a uniform rod rotating around one end, I = 1/3ML^2 is more exact than I = MR^2) > > Thus for a given static stability, you get better dynamic stability, and thus resistance to capsize, by installing a longer alloy mast in place of a steel mast. > > We can design steel masts for our boats. Alloy masts simply give better performance, and better resistance to capsize, when properly engineered. From our calculations in previous e-mails, the benefits outweigh the costs. Thus, alloy masts are wide-spread on yachts. However, if someone wants steel, we can certainly accommodate. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Also, I'd like to reinforce (mainly for the bystanders) that I was > talking about _roll_ moment of inertia: the moment of inertia _around_ > the fore-and-aft axis through the center of gravity. Deep keels with > a big lump of lead at the bottom, or tall steel masts will both > increase that. Putting a lot of weight close to that fore-and-aft > axis (e.g., a steel hull) won't increase that much. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4155|4151|2004-06-11 15:24:05|brentswain38|Re: Auto Pilot|You can use a tiny autopilot powering the trimtab on an outboard rudder the same as a sailboat, for the most reliable and least loaded system possible. You can use the same trimtab steering for inside steering as I show in my book.It just means you may sometimes have to go outside and grab the tiller for docking, but not always. Cable steering is the least reliable and the most problem prone system available.Hydraulics are available used and are extremely reliable, but a self steering system which runs on Hydralics is very expensive and complex, and uses a lot of power.. Brent Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > So far the planing for my Troller Origami (Origami Troller?) is looking into a cable rudder > system, with a trim tab. Could I use the same type of self stearing vane that the sail boats > use? Or do I need to go back and plan on some kind of Hydraulic system so I can use an > off the shelf Auto Pilot? > Phil | 4156|4104|2004-06-11 15:25:48|brentswain38|Gerr|A friend put international 2000E , developed as a barrier coat for fibreglass hulls ,on his steel hull in les sthan ideal conditions. It is still in perfect condition years later with no maintenance. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > The article in Ocean Navigator is likely similar to the article Brent is quoting. He is talking about a reduction of thickness over time but does point out that some boats will perform better if built and treated carefully, and the problem occurs in hidden places. I read the article in the magazine and concluded that I would prefer aluminum, but it is the weight that motivates me the most. Just a note back to barrier coats for plastic boats and their effectiveness. There are a variety of products that will stop the water getting to the hull. I have POR15 on my fiberglass hull and it works well. It drys very smooth. Ocean Navigator has a two part article on hull blisters in the last two issues that talks a lot about different resins. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@e... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > Sounds like the jury is still out - with corrosion still referred to as a theory. > > http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Principles/Theory.htm > > As noted, it could all be eye wash. However, I've seen enough good work from Gerr that I'd want to know more, rather than dismiss > his comments out of hand. He is not a big fan of steel. > > http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4108 > > In SE Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia) sand blasting is not available/permitted except in a few specialized shipyards, which > charge big $$ accordingly. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4157|4151|2004-06-11 17:07:39|Phil S.|Re: Auto Pilot|That sounds Like a great idea. I will read that part of the book more closely, and incorporate it into what I think I am going to be doing. Regards Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > You can use a tiny autopilot powering the trimtab on an outboard > rudder the same as a sailboat, for the most reliable and least loaded > system possible. You can use the same trimtab steering for inside > steering as I show in my book.It just means you may sometimes have to > go outside and grab the tiller for docking, but not always. Cable > steering is the least reliable and the most problem prone system > available.Hydraulics are available used and are extremely reliable, > but a self steering system which runs on Hydralics is very expensive > and complex, and uses a lot of power.. > Brent > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." > wrote: > > So far the planing for my Troller Origami (Origami Troller?) is > looking into a cable rudder > > system, with a trim tab. Could I use the same type of self stearing > vane that the sail boats > > use? Or do I need to go back and plan on some kind of Hydraulic > system so I can use an > > off the shelf Auto Pilot? > > Phil | 4158|4104|2004-06-11 18:24:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Gerr|This suggests that Gerr may have been quoted correctly, that steel can lose thickness even if painted. The contractor in Hawaii may have been describing what he saw, but had the science wrong (or I muddled it up over 17 years). From previous it has been noted that it is hydrogen ions that dissolve (corrode) steel, and salt water is full of them. Rusting is a separate reaction, that takes place after the steel has corroded, when Fe ions combine with oxygen. We know from FG experience that it is difficult to devise a paint that blocks the osmotic pressure of sea water. Thus, while paint can protect steel out of the water, it may not be able to under water. Osmotic pressure will force water through the paint into contact with the steel, and with it H+ which can corrode the steel. This suggests that paints that provide the best protection for FG from osmosis could provide the best protection for steel underwater. This might also explain in part why paint fails faster underwater if the steel does not have a good tooth. H+ slowly removes the material the paint is attached to, and the tooth keeps more material in contact with the paint, longer. By slowing the progress of water, the 2000E is slowing the corrosion that would normally cause the paint to fail. Osmosis in steel boats. Arrgh. Just a guess. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:25 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > A friend put international 2000E , developed as a barrier coat for > fibreglass hulls ,on his steel hull in les sthan ideal conditions. It > is still in perfect condition years later with no maintenance. > Brent > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > The article in Ocean Navigator is likely similar to the article > Brent is quoting. He is talking about a reduction of thickness over > time but does point out that some boats will perform better if built > and treated carefully, and the problem occurs in hidden places. I > read the article in the magazine and concluded that I would prefer > aluminum, but it is the weight that motivates me the most. Just a > note back to barrier coats for plastic boats and their effectiveness. > There are a variety of products that will stop the water getting to > the hull. I have POR15 on my fiberglass hull and it works well. It > drys very smooth. Ocean Navigator has a two part article on hull > blisters in the last two issues that talks a lot about different > resins. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@e... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > > > Sounds like the jury is still out - with corrosion still referred > to as a theory. > > > > http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Principles/Theory.htm > > > > As noted, it could all be eye wash. However, I've seen enough > good work from Gerr that I'd want to know more, rather than dismiss > > his comments out of hand. He is not a big fan of steel. > > > > http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4108 > > > > In SE Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia) sand blasting is not > available/permitted except in a few specialized shipyards, which > > charge big $$ accordingly. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4159|4159|2004-06-12 03:10:03|Dick Pilz|Steel Corrosion|Iron will not rust in pure water, but steel will. The same thing happens in pure oxygen. The reason is rust formation is catalyzed by the presence of carbon dioxide (cee oh two). Steel, by definition, must contain carbon, and thus carries the ingredients of its eventual doom. The carbon oxidizes and catalyzes even under rust, as long as a source of oxygen is available from water or air. The rust actually increases the local concentration of carbon dioxide. Add the fact that oxidized iron molecules are larger than pure iron molecules, and the rust can start prying the paint away. The catalyzing effect of carbon dioxide is one of the major reasons steel exhaust systems corrode from the inside out. Barrier coatings (paint) can retard this corrosion for decades by denying access to the metal. This is why pinholes and paint holidays need to be avoided. (Gerr in some of his writings says metal loss at these pinholes is where the major thinning occurs.) No single coat paint job is perfect, so multiple coats are good insurance. Metallized coatings, such as plating, flame spraying, galvanizing or zinc-rich primers help prevent electrolysis, even if there are gaps in the coverage, since these coatings are really maintaining a beneficial ion field. Rust will occur at the gaps, though. With care, steel can last at least decades. I figure two centuries is good enough for my personal use.| 4160|4159|2004-06-12 05:33:14|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: Steel Corrosion|I always like it when a post sorts the wheat from the chaff. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Dick Pilz [mailto:dickpilz@...] Sent: Saturday, 12 June 2004 16:40 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Corrosion Iron will not rust in pure water, but steel will. The same thing happens in pure oxygen. The reason is rust formation is catalyzed by the presence of carbon dioxide (cee oh two). Steel, by definition, must contain carbon, and thus carries the ingredients of its eventual doom. The carbon oxidizes and catalyzes even under rust, as long as a source of oxygen is available from water or air. The rust actually increases the local concentration of carbon dioxide. Add the fact that oxidized iron molecules are larger than pure iron molecules, and the rust can start prying the paint away. The catalyzing effect of carbon dioxide is one of the major reasons steel exhaust systems corrode from the inside out. Barrier coatings (paint) can retard this corrosion for decades by denying access to the metal. This is why pinholes and paint holidays need to be avoided. (Gerr in some of his writings says metal loss at these pinholes is where the major thinning occurs.) No single coat paint job is perfect, so multiple coats are good insurance. Metallized coatings, such as plating, flame spraying, galvanizing or zinc-rich primers help prevent electrolysis, even if there are gaps in the coverage, since these coatings are really maintaining a beneficial ion field. Rust will occur at the gaps, though. With care, steel can last at least decades. I figure two centuries is good enough for my personal use. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4161|4161|2004-06-12 09:31:22|Gary|Lightning|Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go what would be the best protection set up. Regards... Gary| 4162|4161|2004-06-12 09:35:32|fmichael graham|Re: Lightning|Cover yourself in rubber. Like the Michelin Man. Gary wrote:Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go what would be the best protection set up. Regards... Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4163|4161|2004-06-12 10:05:43|fmichael graham|Re: Lightning|Gary: Michael Kasten wrote an article on this topic. Go to: http://www.kastenmarine.com/Lightning.htm Mike Gary wrote: Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go what would be the best protection set up. Regards... Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4164|4161|2004-06-12 10:14:33|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Re: Lightning|When I lived in south Florida, I saw a steel power cruiser that had been struck by lightning and sunk. The bottom plating looked like it had been attacked by worms with a series of very small holes. The fairly new zinc rich epoxy coating in the bilge was absolutely fried off of the steel in large areas. On the other hand I have heard of steel boats being struck with no visible damage. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary" To: Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Lightning > Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being > struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go > what would be the best protection set up. > > Regards... Gary > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4165|4161|2004-06-12 10:45:44|Michael Casling|Re: Lightning|Planes usually survive quite well but a recent strike took a bunch of the tail off of a BC medical services plane with a friend of ours on board. The closest we got with our boat was about 1/4 mile to a big hit. Inside the boat a humming noise got quite loud before dying off. We have the mast grounded to the keel. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lightning When I lived in south Florida, I saw a steel power cruiser that had been struck by lightning and sunk. The bottom plating looked like it had been attacked by worms with a series of very small holes. The fairly new zinc rich epoxy coating in the bilge was absolutely fried off of the steel in large areas. On the other hand I have heard of steel boats being struck with no visible damage. Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4166|4159|2004-06-12 10:52:07|Michael Casling|Re: Steel Corrosion|I purchased a book called Metal Corrosion in Boats from another member. I reccomend it. He talks about the effect of different types of water. There is a table of corrosion of bare metal in quiet water shown as so many mils per year. I have not read the section on painting and other protection yet, but I do have a cast iron keel on my boat and it is covered with POR15 and then antifouling. There are enough steel boats in salt water BC and other areas to be able to determine what works. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: T.H. & V.D. Cain To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 2:33 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Steel Corrosion I always like it when a post sorts the wheat from the chaff. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Dick Pilz [mailto:dickpilz@...] Sent: Saturday, 12 June 2004 16:40 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Corrosion Iron will not rust in pure water, but steel will. The same thing happens in pure oxygen. The reason is rust formation is catalyzed by the presence of carbon dioxide (cee oh two). Steel, by definition, must contain carbon, and thus carries the ingredients of its eventual doom. The carbon oxidizes and catalyzes even under rust, as long as a source of oxygen is available from water or air. The rust actually increases the local concentration of carbon dioxide. Add the fact that oxidized iron molecules are larger than pure iron molecules, and the rust can start prying the paint away. The catalyzing effect of carbon dioxide is one of the major reasons steel exhaust systems corrode from the inside out. Barrier coatings (paint) can retard this corrosion for decades by denying access to the metal. This is why pinholes and paint holidays need to be avoided. (Gerr in some of his writings says metal loss at these pinholes is where the major thinning occurs.) No single coat paint job is perfect, so multiple coats are good insurance. Metallized coatings, such as plating, flame spraying, galvanizing or zinc-rich primers help prevent electrolysis, even if there are gaps in the coverage, since these coatings are really maintaining a beneficial ion field. Rust will occur at the gaps, though. With care, steel can last at least decades. I figure two centuries is good enough for my personal use. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4167|4159|2004-06-12 12:00:56|woodcraftssuch|Re: Steel Corrosion|> Metallized coatings, such as plating, flame spraying, galvanizing or > zinc-rich primers help prevent electrolysis, What is flame spraying? Is it something that can be done by anyone or does it take a lot of special equipment etc.?| 4168|4159|2004-06-12 13:48:15|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Steel Corrosion|We have definitely seen increased corrosion over the years as the area of rural Malaysia in which the Bones is moored has rapidly industrialized. Previously, rust scale would not advance. Now it bleeds continuously. I find it a problem to leave the boat for extended periods of time, as any faults in the paint result in significant damage to the steel. When we return to the boat, we end up spending our time fixing the paint, rather than going sailing. When SE Asia had the huge smog problems from the land clearing fires in Indonesia, we returned to the boat to discover that major portions of our steel rails had corroded through - all on the underside. The corrosion in one year was many times more than I had seen in the 10 previous combined. 1", schedule 80 pipe, in sections up to 6" long, all turned to dust with the application of the chipping hammer. It could well be that the CO2 in the smog, and the moisture in the sea air that condenses on the hull each night, collected and concentrated on the underside of the rails, and combined to eat through the steel anywhere the paint was suspect. We have heard other accounts of steel boats having problems with accelerated corrosion when moored near cities, but I was shocked at how fast the rails corroded. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Pilz" To: Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 12:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Steel Corrosion > Iron will not rust in pure water, but steel will. The same thing > happens in pure oxygen. The reason is rust formation is catalyzed by > the presence of carbon dioxide (cee oh two). Steel, by definition, > must contain carbon, and thus carries the ingredients of its eventual > doom. > > The carbon oxidizes and catalyzes even under rust, as long as a source > of oxygen is available from water or air. The rust actually increases > the local concentration of carbon dioxide. Add the fact that oxidized > iron molecules are larger than pure iron molecules, and the rust can > start prying the paint away. > > The catalyzing effect of carbon dioxide is one of the major reasons > steel exhaust systems corrode from the inside out. > > Barrier coatings (paint) can retard this corrosion for decades by > denying access to the metal. This is why pinholes and paint holidays > need to be avoided. (Gerr in some of his writings says metal loss at > these pinholes is where the major thinning occurs.) No single coat > paint job is perfect, so multiple coats are good insurance. > > Metallized coatings, such as plating, flame spraying, galvanizing or > zinc-rich primers help prevent electrolysis, even if there are gaps in > the coverage, since these coatings are really maintaining a beneficial > ion field. Rust will occur at the gaps, though. > > With care, steel can last at least decades. I figure two centuries is > good enough for my personal use. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4169|4161|2004-06-12 13:48:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Lightning|We have been in some unbelievable lightning storms over the years in the tropics. Truly frightening. Touch wood we have never had any damage, but have had lightning fry the electronics in the boats anchored around us. We have had people come over to the boat, saying they saw lightning either hit us, or hit within a few feet of us. Many of the boats we know have had their cruising plans set back years by lightning, with many thousands of dollars damage. The problem for most boats is: 1. The mast and rigging is not well grounded to the water, allowing lightning to "see" you. 2. Negative grounds in electrical system connected to the hull grounding system, giving lightning a route to fry equipment. Because electrical equipment is routinely grounded through the negative terminal, with no means to disconnect, when boats take a hit the charge flows along the grounds to the batteries, and them out to the electrical equipment, where it fries everything in its path. Batteries and electronics. Lots of people disconnect the positive side of the equipment in storms, but have no provision to disconnect the negative side. Our solution: 1. The mast and rig are grounded to the hull. The keel shoe is left unpainted. 2. The electrical system is completely isolated from the hull. There are switches on all the antennas to disconnect them in storms - including antenna grounds! - from the electrical system. We routinely check to make sure there is no continuity between the ships batteries and the hull. This is important not only for lightning, but to protect from electrolysis. 3. There is a master switch on both our positive and negative cables from the batteries to the fuse panels, allowing us to disconnect everything in storms. Another master switch disconnects the ground cable from the batteries to the engine. 4. In really bad storms we sit inside. The mast provides a "cone of protection" but I really don't want to test it. Usually lightning is accompanies by rain, and sitting outside in an electrical storm, on a metal deck, soaking wet is doesn't fill me with confidence. We talked with one FG boat that took a direct hit with crew on deck. They reported no injuries, just a mild shock for the person holding the metal wheel steering the boat. However, I've also seen the pictures of the soccer game where lightning hit the field. 5. "Lightning protectors" at the mast head work - the ones that look like Fuller brushes? We know of two boats that installed them. Both were hit within the first month, one twice. So, I figure they are protecting me when I anchor next to them. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary" To: Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 6:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Lightning > Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being > struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go > what would be the best protection set up. > > Regards... Gary > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4170|4159|2004-06-12 16:46:49|Dick Pilz|Re: Steel Corrosion|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "woodcraftssuch" wrote: > > > Metallized coatings, such as plating, flame spraying, galvanizing or > > zinc-rich primers help prevent electrolysis, > > What is flame spraying? Is it something that can be done by anyone or > does it take a lot of special equipment etc.? Try entering "flame spraying" in Google OR http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22flame+spraying%22&btnG=Google+Search (That is one continuous link above, so remove line breaks.) It is a way of blasting molten metal onto other metal. Steel is commonly coated with aluminum or zinc. The equipment uses a combination of heat source (torch or plasma arc), metal supply (wire or powder) and propellant (compressed inert gas or air). This coating is put on bare metal, preferably with considerable tooth to the surface, since the bond is primarily mechanical. Sand blasting should be merely hours old. Then the surface is primed and painted. After digesting the info from the URLs, you can decide whether it is within your trainable skill set with rented equipment or something you wish to subcontract. And you can also decide whether you want to opt for zinc-rich primer instead. Your mileage may vary.| 4171|4161|2004-06-12 19:14:51|Graeme|Re: Lightning|Hi all there was a article in "The marine Maintenance magazine " 1n 2002 #1 this there web site addy http://www.diy-boat.com/ looks like it is available in US CAN . Email them they may have some old issues still Graeme Gary: Michael Kasten wrote an article on this topic. Go to: http://www.kastenmarine.com/Lightning.htm Mike Gary wrote: Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go what would be the best protection set up. Regards... Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4172|4161|2004-06-12 23:37:56|Graeme|Re: Lightning|That issue 2002 #1 is out of print but you can buy from 1995 to 2003 on cd for $195.00 Ouch. Here are some other sites http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000001-d000100/d000007/d000007.html http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=barron00 4 http://www.thomson.ece.ufl.edu/lightning/title.html http://scuba-doc.com/lightdive.htm It is a important issue Hi all there was a article in "The marine Maintenance magazine " 1n 2002 #1 this there web site addy http://www.diy-boat.com/ looks like it is available in US CAN . Email them they may have some old issues still Graeme Gary: Michael Kasten wrote an article on this topic. Go to: http://www.kastenmarine.com/Lightning.htm Mike Gary wrote: Just wondering if anyone has had the experience of their boat being struck by lightning and what happened. As far as steel boats go what would be the best protection set up. Regards... Gary To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4173|4173|2004-06-13 02:44:41|mark_schlichting11|Charts|Anybody got a set of charts for Mexico and/or the South Pacific at a reasonable price? We are heading out in the fall and are looking for both paper and electronic (Nobeltec compatible). We will be on Vancouver Island at the end of the month for a few days only, with 1 night in Vancouver (June 25th) if anyone has any to spare. Mark and Jean, Costa Vida, Shearwater, BC| 4174|3806|2004-06-14 03:29:30|sae140|Drive shaft with CV joints. was Re: Drip-free inner shaft seal.|>> Since the prop shaft is mounted solid the motor would need >> to be hard mounted and dead on. Or as you suggest, having a >> universal joint should allow you to soft mount the motor. I >> believe the universal would need to slide the same as on the car >> drive shaft of old. Gerald > For either the hard- or soft-mounted engine option, each rear drive- > shaft from a Ford Sierra (or similar vehicle with independent rear > suspension) will supply you with two sliding cv joints - at next to > zero cost. In my view, tedious and exacting engine alignment > really ought to be a thing of the past. > Needless to say, it's important to have a thrust-bearing > arrangement *outboard* of any cv joint in order to prevent > excessive fore-and-aft movement of the shaft. Further to these earlier posts, if you want to see a professional installation using these techniques, see: http://www.aquadrive.net/ad_features.html As already mentioned, for those on a restricted budget, an equivalent can easily be made from a Ford Sierra (or similar) rear drive shaft. For those not familar - this drive-shaft has 2 spring-loaded sliding CV joints, and has 2 back-to-back tapered roller bearings (ideal as a thrust bearing) mounted in a hub, which has a convenient flange for securing the hub to your hull. These drive-shafts are approx 30" long, but 6" or more of shaft can easily be removed between the CV joints if required. They can almost be used 'as is' - the only engineering required is the making-up of simple adapters for both ends. Colin| 4175|4175|2004-06-14 12:58:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|alloy cats in origami|We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of boats from 25-50 feet. We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the project. We will add a different cabin and deck for builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose solution for all applications, catamarans are well suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for free. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 email: ge@...| 4176|4173|2004-06-14 15:18:56|brentswain38|Re: Charts|Mark There are a couple of chartguides out , available at Compass Rose Books in Sidney. One covers only as far as Guatamala and the other goes right to Panama.You're welcome to copy my charts of the South Pacific if we meet. I'm in Comox, but hope to head for Nanaimo and points outh of there soon. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "mark_schlichting11" wrote: > Anybody got a set of charts for Mexico and/or the South Pacific at a > reasonable price? We are heading out in the fall and are looking > for both paper and electronic (Nobeltec compatible). We will be on > Vancouver Island at the end of the month for a few days only, with 1 > night in Vancouver (June 25th) if anyone has any to spare. > > Mark and Jean, > Costa Vida, > Shearwater, BC | 4177|4104|2004-06-14 15:23:02|brentswain38|Gerr|I've seen excellent paint jobs on steel boats last decades. So much for Gerr's theory. With good zincs on, I've had bare steel below the waterline still showing grinder marks after many years . So much for the theory of losing steel.It's sort of like warning people about aluminium eating clams. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > This suggests that Gerr may have been quoted correctly, that steel can lose thickness even if painted. The contractor in Hawaii may > have been describing what he saw, but had the science wrong (or I muddled it up over 17 years). > > From previous it has been noted that it is hydrogen ions that dissolve (corrode) steel, and salt water is full of them. Rusting is > a separate reaction, that takes place after the steel has corroded, when Fe ions combine with oxygen. > > We know from FG experience that it is difficult to devise a paint that blocks the osmotic pressure of sea water. Thus, while paint > can protect steel out of the water, it may not be able to under water. Osmotic pressure will force water through the paint into > contact with the steel, and with it H+ which can corrode the steel. > > This suggests that paints that provide the best protection for FG from osmosis could provide the best protection for steel > underwater. This might also explain in part why paint fails faster underwater if the steel does not have a good tooth. H+ slowly > removes the material the paint is attached to, and the tooth keeps more material in contact with the paint, longer. By slowing the > progress of water, the 2000E is slowing the corrosion that would normally cause the paint to fail. Osmosis in steel boats. Arrgh. > > Just a guess. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:25 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > A friend put international 2000E , developed as a barrier coat for > > fibreglass hulls ,on his steel hull in les sthan ideal conditions. It > > is still in perfect condition years later with no maintenance. > > Brent > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > > wrote: > > > The article in Ocean Navigator is likely similar to the article > > Brent is quoting. He is talking about a reduction of thickness over > > time but does point out that some boats will perform better if built > > and treated carefully, and the problem occurs in hidden places. I > > read the article in the magazine and concluded that I would prefer > > aluminum, but it is the weight that motivates me the most. Just a > > note back to barrier coats for plastic boats and their effectiveness. > > There are a variety of products that will stop the water getting to > > the hull. I have POR15 on my fiberglass hull and it works well. It > > drys very smooth. Ocean Navigator has a two part article on hull > > blisters in the last two issues that talks a lot about different > > resins. Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ge@e... > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 9:24 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:Gerr > > > > > > > > > Sounds like the jury is still out - with corrosion still referred > > to as a theory. > > > > > > http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Principles/Theory.htm > > > > > > As noted, it could all be eye wash. However, I've seen enough > > good work from Gerr that I'd want to know more, rather than dismiss > > > his comments out of hand. He is not a big fan of steel. > > > > > > http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=4108 > > > > > > In SE Asia (Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia) sand blasting is not > > available/permitted except in a few specialized shipyards, which > > > charge big $$ accordingly. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > ---------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4178|4161|2004-06-14 15:26:54|brentswain38|Re: Lightning|The key to lightning protection is good grounding. There is nothing better grounded than a steel boat in sea water.Lightning wouldn't harm you unles you were the shortest path to the ground, which is not likely when you are surrounded by metal. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Planes usually survive quite well but a recent strike took a bunch of the tail off of a BC medical services plane with a friend of ours on board. The closest we got with our boat was about 1/4 mile to a big hit. Inside the boat a humming noise got quite loud before dying off. We have the mast grounded to the keel. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 7:11 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lightning > > > When I lived in south Florida, I saw a steel power cruiser that had been > struck by lightning and sunk. The bottom plating looked like it had been > attacked by worms with a series of very small holes. The fairly new zinc > rich epoxy coating in the bilge was absolutely fried off of the steel in > large areas. On the other hand I have heard of steel boats being struck with > no visible damage. > > Jeff > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4179|3806|2004-06-14 16:06:54|David K McComber|Re: Drive shaft with CV joints. was Re: Drip-free inner shaft seal.|You might want to check out the shafts a PYI http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=python &action=main&sn=1 Same bearings at 2/3 the $. David McComber d.mccomber@... Further to these earlier posts, if you want to see a professional installation using these techniques, see: http://www.aquadrive.net/ad_features.html As already mentioned, for those on a restricted budget, an equivalent can easily be made from a Ford Sierra (or similar) rear drive shaft. For those not familar - this drive-shaft has 2 spring-loaded sliding CV joints, and has 2 back-to-back tapered roller bearings (ideal as a thrust bearing) mounted in a hub, which has a convenient flange for securing the hub to your hull. These drive-shafts are approx 30" long, but 6" or more of shaft can easily be removed between the CV joints if required. They can almost be used 'as is' - the only engineering required is the making-up of simple adapters for both ends. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4180|4175|2004-06-14 16:12:52|David K McComber|Re: alloy cats in origami|My interest is in power multihulls, so count me in. The problem is that I think there would be more welding in an Origami hull then a dory type hull. This would increase labor cost by about 1/3 I think. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:58 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of boats from 25-50 feet. We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the project. We will add a different cabin and deck for builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose solution for all applications, catamarans are well suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for free. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 email: ge@... To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4181|4175|2004-06-14 17:40:03|brentswain38|Re: alloy cats in origami|-There is far less welding in an origami hull than with any other method of metal boatbuilding if you use full sized plates. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > My interest is in power multihulls, so count me in. > > The problem is that I think there would be more welding in an Origami hull > then a dory type hull. This would increase labor cost by about 1/3 I think. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@e... [mailto:ge@e...] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:58 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an > alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design > and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, > and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. > The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of > boats from 25-50 feet. > > We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the > project. We will add a different cabin and deck for > builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose > solution for all applications, catamarans are well > suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a > great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising > on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the > weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. > > The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: > > 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design > 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats > > In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for > free. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 > email: ge@e... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1087318720/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=334906033> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4182|4104|2004-06-14 17:48:28|Dick Pilz|Gerr|Hi, Brent, With good zincs, the outside of the hull will survive quite nicely. It is the inside that too many people give improper corrosion protection to. As you have stated in your book, hulls corrode from the inside out. Traditional steel construction provides many pockets and opportunities for incompleted coating coverage. Origami is open enough to eliminate almost all pockets and crevices. If people paint nothing else, they should paint the inside of their hull. And then paint it again. I used to design compressed air brake tanks, over two million, for large semi trucks. It wasn't road salt spray that eventually killed them, it was internal condensation. We gave them a good prime and paint job on the interior, too, which was a neat trick through a half inch female coupling. They still died after about eight to ten years if the trucker didn't maintain his air dryer. Gerr has a "certificate" to lose if he doesn't overcaution people. So, he feels he has to be a nanny whenever he writes. I've practised mechanical engineering for over twenty five years. Maybe one of these days, I'll get a degree and a "certificate" too. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I've seen excellent paint jobs on steel boats last decades. So much > for Gerr's theory. With good zincs on, I've had bare steel below the > waterline still showing grinder marks after many years . So much for > the theory of losing steel.It's sort of like warning people about > aluminium eating clams. > Brent Swain | 4183|3806|2004-06-14 18:04:24|sae140|Drive shaft with CV joints. was Re: Drip-free inner shaft seal.|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > You might want to check out the shafts a PYI > http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=python > > &action=main&sn=1 > > Same bearings at 2/3 the $. > > David McComber I'm sure they're a good deal - but Python prices still start at well over $1000 - whereas a s/h Ford shaft may only set you $20 or so. I get mine for free. Not much of a contest. Colin| 4184|4175|2004-06-14 18:24:38|denis buggy|Re: alloy cats in origami|dear greg must your project be in alloy do you think it could be adapted for steel regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of boats from 25-50 feet. We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the project. We will add a different cabin and deck for builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose solution for all applications, catamarans are well suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for free. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 email: ge@... To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4185|4175|2004-06-14 19:03:22|David K McComber|Re: alloy cats in origami|* -There is far less welding in an origami hull than with any other method of metal boatbuilding if you use full sized plates. Brent Swain This is flat wrong! The flat bottom boat without a centerline seam has less welding then a boat that has a centerline seam plus two darts and there butt joint. A frameless boat does not need to be built origami, so framing is the same either way. Many multi chained boats are built as frameless as the origami designed boats are. The only advantage of origami is that they can be designed to look like they don't have chines above the waterline. David McComber d.mccomber@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4186|4175|2004-06-14 19:32:51|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: alloy cats in origami|Hi Denis, In general a steel catamarans should be possible as the size increases, and would likely involve less compromise in a power boat than sail. The patterns will fold in steel or alloy. Please send me a brief outline of the type of craft you are looking for to cat@..., thanks Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "denis buggy" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > dear greg must your project be in alloy do you think it could be adapted for steel regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:57 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design > and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. > The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of boats from 25-50 feet. > > We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the project. We will add a different cabin and deck for > builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose solution for all applications, catamarans are well > suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising > on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. > > The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: > > 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design > 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats > > In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for free. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 > email: ge@... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4187|4175|2004-06-14 19:32:51|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: alloy cats in origami|Hi Dave, As Brent has outlined, there should be significantly less welding in an origami hull. We plan to use controlled folding of the centerline in these hulls, to form round sections with minimal darts. Also, we would form elements of the wing deck and house using origami techniques, with the associated savings. Prior to going cruising I was heavy involved in multi-hulls, so I'm very much looking forward to seeing what might be possbile. Please send me a brief outline of the type of craft you are looking for to cat@..., thanks Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David K McComber" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > My interest is in power multihulls, so count me in. > > The problem is that I think there would be more welding in an Origami hull > then a dory type hull. This would increase labor cost by about 1/3 I think. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:58 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an > alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design > and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, > and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. > The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of > boats from 25-50 feet. > > We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the > project. We will add a different cabin and deck for > builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose > solution for all applications, catamarans are well > suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a > great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising > on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the > weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. > > The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: > > 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design > 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats > > In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for > free. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 > email: ge@... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1087318720/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=334906033> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4188|3806|2004-06-14 21:30:38|Dale J. Robertson|Re: Drive shaft with CV joints. was Re: Drip-free inner shaft seal.|I am assuming (yeah I know) that you are referring to english fords. There are not too many small cars made in the US in the last 20 years that employ rear-wheel drive. The big chevys and fords I am familiar with don't use any kind of thrust plate or bushing that I recall. Are there any made in or imported to the US cars that anyone knows use equivelent drive setups to the ford sierra mentioned? Dale sae140 wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > wrote: > > You might want to check out the shafts a PYI > > http://www.pyiinc.com/index.php?section=python > > > > > &action=main&sn=1 > > > > Same bearings at 2/3 the $. > > > > David McComber > > I'm sure they're a good deal - but Python prices still start at well > over $1000 - whereas a s/h Ford shaft may only set you $20 or so. I > get mine for free. Not much of a contest. > > Colin > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor* > ADVERTISEMENT > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Yahoo! Groups Links* > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4189|3806|2004-06-14 23:37:50|jim_both|Drive shaft with CV joints. was Re: Drip-free inner shaft seal.|I would think that another advantage with this type of linkage is to have greater freedom in the location of your engine. jim_both --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > >> Since the prop shaft is mounted solid the motor would need > >> to be hard mounted and dead on. Or as you suggest, having a > >> universal joint should allow you to soft mount the motor. I > >> believe the universal would need to slide the same as on the car > >> drive shaft of old. Gerald > > > For either the hard- or soft-mounted engine option, each rear drive- > > shaft from a Ford Sierra (or similar vehicle with independent rear > > suspension) will supply you with two sliding cv joints - at next to > > zero cost. In my view, tedious and exacting engine alignment > > really ought to be a thing of the past. > > Needless to say, it's important to have a thrust-bearing > > arrangement *outboard* of any cv joint in order to prevent > > excessive fore-and-aft movement of the shaft. > > Further to these earlier posts, if you want to see a professional > installation using these techniques, see: > http://www.aquadrive.net/ad_features.html > > As already mentioned, for those on a restricted budget, an equivalent > can easily be made from a Ford Sierra (or similar) rear drive shaft. > > For those not familar - this drive-shaft has 2 spring-loaded sliding > CV joints, and has 2 back-to-back tapered roller bearings (ideal as a > thrust bearing) mounted in a hub, which has a convenient flange for > securing the hub to your hull. These drive-shafts are approx 30" > long, but 6" or more of shaft can easily be removed between the CV > joints if required. They can almost be used 'as is' - the only > engineering required is the making-up of simple adapters for both > ends. > > Colin | 4190|4175|2004-06-15 02:09:15|David K McComber|Re: alloy cats in origami|My only interest right now would be for a hull similar to the outrigger floats of a trimaran. It needs a beam length ratio of at least 15 to 1 at the waterline. My main hull is a chinned version of the displacement cat hulls developed by Malcolm Tennant, and are used by many designers now. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami Hi Dave, As Brent has outlined, there should be significantly less welding in an origami hull. We plan to use controlled folding of the centerline in these hulls, to form round sections with minimal darts. Also, we would form elements of the wing deck and house using origami techniques, with the associated savings. Prior to going cruising I was heavy involved in multi-hulls, so I'm very much looking forward to seeing what might be possbile. Please send me a brief outline of the type of craft you are looking for to cat@..., thanks Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David K McComber" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > My interest is in power multihulls, so count me in. > > The problem is that I think there would be more welding in an Origami hull > then a dory type hull. This would increase labor cost by about 1/3 I think. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:58 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an > alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design > and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, > and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. > The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of > boats from 25-50 feet. > > We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the > project. We will add a different cabin and deck for > builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose > solution for all applications, catamarans are well > suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a > great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising > on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the > weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. > > The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: > > 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design > 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats > > In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for > free. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 > email: ge@... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1087318720/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=334906033> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4191|4175|2004-06-15 02:21:55|David K McComber|Re: alloy cats in origami|Whops should proof read better, Should have said Power Cat hulls. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: David K McComber [mailto:d.mccomber@...] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:09 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami My only interest right now would be for a hull similar to the outrigger floats of a trimaran. It needs a beam length ratio of at least 15 to 1 at the waterline. My main hull is a chinned version of the displacement Power cat hulls developed by Malcolm Tennant, and are used by many designers now. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami Hi Dave, As Brent has outlined, there should be significantly less welding in an origami hull. We plan to use controlled folding of the centerline in these hulls, to form round sections with minimal darts. Also, we would form elements of the wing deck and house using origami techniques, with the associated savings. Prior to going cruising I was heavy involved in multi-hulls, so I'm very much looking forward to seeing what might be possbile. Please send me a brief outline of the type of craft you are looking for to cat@..., thanks Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David K McComber" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > My interest is in power multihulls, so count me in. > > The problem is that I think there would be more welding in an Origami hull > then a dory type hull. This would increase labor cost by about 1/3 I think. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:58 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an > alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design > and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, > and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. > The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction of > boats from 25-50 feet. > > We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the > project. We will add a different cabin and deck for > builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general purpose > solution for all applications, catamarans are well > suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a > great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising > on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the > weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. > > The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: > > 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design > 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats > > In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for > free. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 > email: ge@... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1087318720/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=334906033> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4192|4175|2004-06-15 12:13:55|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: alloy cats in origami|We would normally start with a set of lines drawing, and see how close we can come in origami. At 15:1+ I'd almost be tempted to see if it wasn't possible to make the hull in alloy without chines. Control the centerline to add curvature in section, then torture the panels down their length to form the bows and stern. The idea is tempting, and might be worth some testing. Alloy will move and you should be able to get a better shape than can be done in ply. Do you have any lines drawings for the Tennant hull? I would be interested in seeing if we could do one of these in origami, as they are probably closer to what we would like to create for a cat. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "David K McComber" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > My only interest right now would be for a hull similar to the outrigger > floats of a trimaran. It needs a beam length ratio of at least 15 to 1 at > the waterline. > > My main hull is a chinned version of the displacement cat hulls developed by > Malcolm Tennant, and are used by many designers now. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > Hi Dave, > > As Brent has outlined, there should be significantly less welding in an > origami hull. We plan to use controlled folding of the > centerline in these hulls, to form round sections with minimal darts. Also, > we would form elements of the wing deck and house > using origami techniques, with the associated savings. Prior to going > cruising I was heavy involved in multi-hulls, so I'm very > much looking forward to seeing what might be possbile. > > Please send me a brief outline of the type of craft you are looking for to > cat@..., thanks > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@... > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David K McComber" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 1:12 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > My interest is in power multihulls, so count me in. > > > > The problem is that I think there would be more welding in an Origami hull > > then a dory type hull. This would increase labor cost by about 1/3 I > think. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:58 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] alloy cats in origami > > > > > > > > We have a couple of builders interested in an origami design to build an > > alloy catamaran. We will likely adopt the basic design > > and methods being used on the east coast of Australia with great success, > > and create a set of origami patterns to fold the boats. > > The idea is to come up with a scalable design, suitable for construction > of > > boats from 25-50 feet. > > > > We are looking for other builders that might be interested in joining the > > project. We will add a different cabin and deck for > > builders interested in power boat applications. While not a general > purpose > > solution for all applications, catamarans are well > > suited to high speed operation with good fuel economy, and can provide a > > great solution for boaters that do most of their cruising > > on the weekends and summer vacations. They allow you to spend the > > weekend/vacation at your destination, rather than in transit. > > > > The advantages of joining the project at this stage are: > > > > 1. We will incorporate your ideas into the design > > 2. You will receive a commission on subsequent boats > > > > In effect, if you help us design a popular boat, you get the design for > > free. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: +1 (604) 987-0050 > > email: ge@... > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1087318720/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304ck1na/ > > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > > > > > g> > > > > > > > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=334906033> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1087342372/A=2178650/R=0/SIG=14drisgb3/*http:/www.h > ouseholdfinance.com/ln/TrackingServlet?cmd_MediaCode=&fc=APS&mkt=000&mc=01PS > YAYA004001B220000U0300L0030000000000&dest=HOME_PAGE> click here > > > > :HM/A=2178650/rand=359565521> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4193|4193|2004-06-15 18:47:13|carlmbentley|skeg cooling|hello, am hoping to use skeg cooling. where do i need to place the pickup and return so as not to interfer with shaft later. along sides ? directly behind leading edge pipe ? what kind of pipe should i use for these ? can i add these later or do i need them in place before attaching skeg ? -carl this questions pertains to a 36swain| 4194|3806|2004-06-16 04:05:00|sae140|Drive shaft with CV joints. was Re: Drip-free inner shaft seal.|Had a couple of emails off-forum, politely pointing out that drive shafts don't have any means of taking thrust !! Mmmm - eventually I realised where the confusion's coming from - it's that language thing again .... Over here (UK), we used to have engines up front driving rigid axles at the rear. So we called the drive from the gearbox to rear axle the "propellor shaft" (bit like a boat's) or "prop shaft" for short, and we called the drive from the differential to the wheels, the two "half-shafts". When independent rear suspension came out, we retained the term "prop shaft", and re-named the former 'half shafts' as "drive-shafts". But - it seems that what we call "prop shafts" many people call "drive shafts", and what we call "drive-shafts" (the former half- shafts) others call "CV axles". Ok - so here we're talking drive-shafts(UK) or CV axles(US and maybe elsewhere), with 2 rubber-booted CV-joints and a hub on each shaft (or axle). I've put a couple of pictures in the photos section - in a folder named "Drive Shaft Stuff", showing the obvious advantage of using rear shafts (easier hub/ thrust bearing mounting), and some examples from other manufacturers. Apparently Mazda pick-ups have rear drive/ independent rear suspension - which is the kind of thing you're looking for. Might also be worth looking at Toyota, Mitsubishi, VW and rear-drive European Fords. All front wheel drive vehicles have CV jointed axles of course, but unlike the rear units these will need modifying in order to mount. If you can only source FWD CV-axles, then you could always use a separate thrust bearing in a pillow-block between the stuffing-box and the first CV joint. I've also included a graphic of the oil cavity drip-free stern-gland mentioned earlier, just in case anyone's interested, but as Brent pointed out some time back, more-or-less the same result would be achieved by fitting a grease nipple behind the stuffing box and filling the prop-shaft tube with grease. Simple, but effective. Colin| 4195|736|2004-06-16 10:22:43|Phil S.|Dove III Book|Having just finished reading the book about Dove III's voyage through the northwest passage I was kind of struck by a few of observations. They could have left the sails home for as often as they seem to use them. The wind rearly co-operated. It is one tough boat design and I have no qualms about building one of Brents designs. Totally cool. Phil| 4196|4196|2004-06-16 11:06:27|Phil S.|Cat With Tanks|I was thinking Instead of using old propane tanks and all of the associated risks with welding on them you could use ASME pipe. Phil| 4197|4197|2004-06-16 16:03:27|Joe Casey|Location of head in the 31|Hi Brent, Where, in your opinion, is the best location for the head and holding tank in a 31 used for long range cruising and living aboard? Regards, Joe [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4198|736|2004-06-16 16:44:12|Joe Casey|Re: Dove III Book|From the Canadian magazine articles I used to follow their trip I got the impression they sailed from about Prince Rupert and the Dixon entrance through the Aleutian Islands, Bering Sea, and Chukchi Sea to Barrow before doing much motoring. Does the book say otherwise? Joe -----Original Message----- From: Phil S. [mailto:newbarndesign@...] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:20 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Dove III Book Having just finished reading the book about Dove III's voyage through the northwest passage I was kind of struck by a few of observations. They could have left the sails home for as often as they seem to use them. The wind rearly co-operated. It is one tough boat design and I have no qualms about building one of Brents designs. Totally cool. Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4199|736|2004-06-16 17:07:49|Phil S.|Re: Dove III Book|Yeah my impression from Len's (the author) description is that they motored most of the time from Nianiamo(sp) till they crossed the golf of Alaska. Then it was almost all motoring from Dutch harbor on. Len's complaints about the engine noise were all through the book. Maybe I am miss reading things but once they past Pt Barrow there was little or no winds. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > From the Canadian magazine articles I used to follow their trip I got the > impression they sailed from about Prince Rupert and the Dixon entrance > through the Aleutian Islands, Bering Sea, and Chukchi Sea to Barrow before > doing much motoring. Does the book say otherwise? > > Joe > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil S. [mailto:newbarndesign@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:20 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Dove III Book > > Having just finished reading the book about Dove III's voyage through the > northwest > passage I was kind of struck by a few of observations. > They could have left the sails home for as often as they seem to use them. > The wind rearly co-operated. > It is one tough boat design and I have no qualms about building one of > Brents designs. > > > Totally cool. > Phil > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 4200|4200|2004-06-16 17:56:52|Bushra|Discover Islam :)|Please forgive us for any disturbance, but we have an important subject to address to you regarding FAITH, and we don't indend to overload your email with unnessary messages... Discover Islam Welcome to Exploring Islam Peace and Blessings of God be upon you! You are now standing at the Gateway of God's Greatest Gift to Man: Islam, which is the Complete Way of Life as taught to us by all the Prophets of God. We request you to enter this portal, with a free mind and a free heart, looking for God's Truth. Hopefully, this site will help you to get a true understanding of Islam, which is the Life of about a billion and half people inhabiting our planet. You get authentic information about Islam here, so that you have the chance of knowing what Islam really is. Please have the patience to carefully read the following pages and compare the information you get here with whatever you had thought about Islam previously. If required, you can supplement your knowledge with further reading of the Original Sources of Islam and other books by scholars who have studied Islam in depth and live in Islam. If you as an outsider, observe those people who call themselves Muslims, you may not see much of Islam in them; or their life may misrepresent Islam, as in the case of the followers of any religion, for that matter. If you want to study what Christianity is, you go to the great scholars of Christianity as well as to the Bible, the Holy Book of Christianity. So also in the case of Islam, where you need to get information about it from the most authentic sources. Then only can you judge Islam as well as Muslims as to how they really compare with the followers of other religions, or how they fare in their observance of this Great Religion. Introduction: Islam is the religion decreed for mankind by God*, Who revealed it to His prophets; and they in turn, taught it to the people around them. The word, Islam means 'Peace' and also 'Submission to the Will of God'. From the beginning of mankind on the face of the earth, revelations came to God's chosen prophets; and the first prophet was the first man, Adam and the last Prophet was Prophet Muhammad, (peace be upon him), through whom the Religion of God was perfected. And in between, thousands of prophets came to the peoples who inhabited different lands in different periods of history. The Holy Qur'an, the Scripture of Muslims, mentions by name only twenty five of these prophets, of whom the most important are Abraham (Ibraheem [pbuh]), Moses (Moosa [pbuh]), Noah (Nooh [pbuh]), Jesus (Eesa [pbuh]) and Muhammad [pbuh]. All these prophets of God taught basically the same message of Islam to their people. The word �Islam� today is mostly used to refer to the final form of the Religion of God taught by the last prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). It is often counted as the latest of the three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In this sense, Islam emerged in the Arabian peninsula, which we know today as Saudi Arabia, in 612 C.E. through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Judaism is believed to be based on the teachings and the laws of Prophet Moses, while Christianity is said to take its social and moral codes from the teachings of Prophet Jesus. All three religions are believed to have their roots in the teachings of the patriarch Abraham, who also was a great Prophet of God. The Holy Qur'an states in Chapter 2 (verses, 124-130), that God appointed Abraham an Imam or leader to the people. But when he prayed to God to bless his children too, God answered that He would bless only the good among them and not the evil doers. And God took a covenant from Abraham and his son Ishmael (Isma'eel [pbuh]) to sanctify the House of God (that is Ka'aba) at Makkah, for those who come to pray there and compass it around. And Abraham prayed again to make his children Muslims or people obedient to God; and also to send among them a Messenger who would rehearse God's signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom and purify them. In answer to this prayer of Abraham, God sent a Messenger to the Land of Ka'ba from among Abraham's own children, and he was the Last Prophet of God, Muhammad (Peace be on him). And it was through Muhammad (peace be upon him), that the Guidance of God for mankind was completed and perfected. Muhammad (peace be on him) taught the people, the Book of God called the Qur'an, and instructed them as to how they should lead a life in Submission to God. The details of the Guidance of God exemplified in the life of the Prophet, are called the Sunnah or the Example of the Prophet. The Qur'an and the Sunnah together form the foundation of Islam; and it is on this foundation that the Great House of Islam stands. For more information about Islam: http://www.geocities.com/aboossama1863/1.html Towards a better understanding of Islam ImanWay Formus is your Way....Join Now: http://www.en.imanway.com/index.php For more Information about Islam contact me at : imanway_qa@... To request your �Free� Copy of the Noble Quran and Books contact: imanway_ibaw@... | 4201|4200|2004-06-16 18:06:52|Phil S.|Re: Discover Islam :)|I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us all a favor and go meet allah personally. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bushra" wrote: > Please forgive us for any disturbance, but we have an important subject to address to you regarding FAITH, and we don't indend to overload your email with unnessary messages... > > Discover Islam > Welcome to Exploring Islam > > Peace and Blessings of God be upon you! You are now standing at the Gateway of God's Greatest Gift to Man: Islam, which is the Complete Way of Life as taught to us by all the Prophets of God. > > We request you to enter this portal, with a free mind and a free heart, looking for God's Truth. Hopefully, this site will help you to get a true understanding of Islam, which is the Life of about a billion and half people inhabiting our planet. > > You get authentic information about Islam here, so that you have the chance of knowing what Islam really is. Please have the patience to carefully read the following pages and compare the information you get here with whatever you had thought about Islam previously. If required, you can supplement your knowledge with further reading of the Original Sources of Islam and other books by scholars who have studied Islam in depth and live in Islam. If you as an outsider, observe those people who call themselves Muslims, you may not see much of Islam in them; or their life may misrepresent Islam, as in the case of the followers of any religion, for that matter. If you want to study what Christianity is, you go to the great scholars of Christianity as well as to the Bible, the Holy Book of Christianity. So also in the case of Islam, where you need to get information about it from the most authentic sources. Then only can you judge Islam as well as Muslims as to how they really compare with the followers of other religions, or how they fare in their observance of this Great Religion. > Introduction: > > Islam is the religion decreed for mankind by God*, Who revealed it to His prophets; and they in turn, taught it to the people around them. The word, Islam means 'Peace' and also 'Submission to the Will of God'. From the beginning of mankind on the face of the earth, revelations came to God's chosen prophets; and the first prophet was the first man, Adam and the last Prophet was Prophet Muhammad, (peace be upon him), through whom the Religion of God was perfected. And in between, thousands of prophets came to the peoples who inhabited different lands in different periods of history. The Holy Qur'an, the Scripture of Muslims, mentions by name only twenty five of these prophets, of whom the most important are Abraham (Ibraheem [pbuh]), Moses (Moosa [pbuh]), Noah (Nooh [pbuh]), Jesus (Eesa [pbuh]) and Muhammad [pbuh]. > > All these prophets of God taught basically the same message of Islam to their people. > > The word "Islam" today is mostly used to refer to the final form of the Religion of God taught by the last prophet, Muhammad (pbuh). It is often counted as the latest of the three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In this sense, Islam emerged in the Arabian peninsula, which we know today as Saudi Arabia, in 612 C.E. through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Judaism is believed to be based on the teachings and the laws of Prophet Moses, while Christianity is said to take its social and moral codes from the teachings of Prophet Jesus. All three religions are believed to have their roots in the teachings of the patriarch Abraham, who also was a great Prophet of God. > > The Holy Qur'an states in Chapter 2 (verses, 124-130), that God appointed Abraham an Imam or leader to the people. But when he prayed to God to bless his children too, God answered that He would bless only the good among them and not the evil doers. And God took a covenant from Abraham and his son Ishmael (Isma'eel [pbuh]) to sanctify the House of God (that is Ka'aba) at Makkah, for those who come to pray there and compass it around. And Abraham prayed again to make his children Muslims or people obedient to God; and also to send among them a Messenger who would rehearse God's signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom and purify them. > > In answer to this prayer of Abraham, God sent a Messenger to the Land of Ka'ba from among Abraham's own children, and he was the Last Prophet of God, Muhammad (Peace be on him). > > And it was through Muhammad (peace be upon him), that the Guidance of God for mankind was completed and perfected. Muhammad (peace be on him) taught the people, the Book of God called the Qur'an, and instructed them as to how they should lead a life in Submission to God. The details of the Guidance of God exemplified in the life of the Prophet, are called the Sunnah or the Example of the Prophet. The Qur'an and the Sunnah together form the foundation of Islam; and it is on this foundation that the Great House of Islam stands. > > For more information about Islam: > http://www.geocities.com/aboossama1863/1.html > Towards a better understanding of Islam > ImanWay Formus is your Way....Join Now: > > http://www.en.imanway.com/index.php > > For more Information about Islam contact me at : > imanway_qa@i... > > To request your "Free" Copy of the Noble Quran and Books contact: > imanway_ibaw@i... | 4202|4200|2004-06-16 18:24:06|fmichael graham|Re: Discover Islam :)|Hey Phil: I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out of the group posts. Mike "Phil S." wrote: I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us all a favor and go meet allah personally. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4203|4200|2004-06-16 21:05:52|Phil S.|Re: Discover Islam :)|Mike My apologies, I shouldn't have singled out any religion. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Hey Phil: > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out of the group posts. > Mike > > > "Phil S." wrote: > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us all > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4204|4197|2004-06-16 21:11:39|brentswain38|Re: Location of head in the 31|I put my head in the back corner of the whelehouse on the starboard side, just behind the steering seat. This puts it well above the waterline and high with a footrest. This enables be to raise myself while using the head and scan most of the horizon. It also lets me leave the rest of the boat wide open, unobstructed by bulkheads.It lets you throw wet stuff into it while coming below.I'd put it there again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > Hi Brent, > > > > Where, in your opinion, is the best location for the head and holding tank > in a 31 used for long range cruising and living aboard? > > > > Regards, > > Joe > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4205|4197|2004-06-16 21:12:48|brentswain38|Re: Location of head in the 31|I'd leave the holdingtank in the US where it belongs. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Casey" wrote: > Hi Brent, > > > > Where, in your opinion, is the best location for the head and holding tank > in a 31 used for long range cruising and living aboard? > > > > Regards, > > Joe > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4206|4193|2004-06-16 21:21:09|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|I put the skeg pickup pipe along one side of the stern tube to just a couple of inches off the bottom. I usually have to pound it in, after the stern tube is in. The leading edge pipe on the skeg should have a foot or more of 1 1/2 inch shaft dropped in on the twin keeler , up to the start of the 1/2 inch plate gusset ahead of the skeg, to take any impact of any rock which may pass between the keels. Do all this before putting the bottom on the skeg as that lets you tap the skeg and let all the slag from then building proccess fall out.On the single keeler you can use the leading edge pipe as the keel will prevent anything hitting the skeg. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" wrote: > hello, > am hoping to use skeg cooling. > where do i need to place the pickup and return so as not to interfer > with shaft later. along sides ? directly behind leading edge pipe ? > what kind of pipe should i use for these ? can i add these later or > do i need them in place before attaching skeg ? > > -carl > > this questions pertains to a 36swain | 4207|4193|2004-06-16 21:24:43|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|Use 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe.Put it in after the skeg is on the hull, after the stern tube is in.Put the return above the aperture at the back of the top of the skeg so it will have a circuitous route to the bottom. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" wrote: > hello, > am hoping to use skeg cooling. > where do i need to place the pickup and return so as not to interfer > with shaft later. along sides ? directly behind leading edge pipe ? > what kind of pipe should i use for these ? can i add these later or > do i need them in place before attaching skeg ? > > -carl > > this questions pertains to a 36swain | 4208|4200|2004-06-16 21:31:35|brentswain38|Re: Discover Islam :)|Given the misery religion has caused , I'm tempted to get a T shirt which says " Religion Is a Mental Illness." That would make for a lot of interesting debates. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Mike > My apologies, I shouldn't have singled out any religion. > Phil > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > Hey Phil: > > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd appreciate it if you kept your > offensive comments about Muslims out of the group posts. > > Mike > > > > > > "Phil S." wrote: > > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us > all > > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4209|4200|2004-06-16 22:06:35|Phil S.|Re: Discover Islam :)|Hi Brent; We would whole heartedly agree on that issue. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Given the misery religion has caused , I'm tempted to get a T shirt > which says " Religion Is a Mental Illness." That would make for a lot > of interesting debates. > Brent > | 4210|4210|2004-06-16 22:43:34|Sean Flynn|Driveshaft/Propshaft|From the sounds of it, you could look in most four wheel drive vehicles and get the axle shaft from the front axle of an IFS (independent front suspension) sprung vehicle would work. Most four wheel drive vehicles built in the 90s had these. The only exceptions that come to mind being the heavy duty Fords, Chevs, etc and Jeeps. > named "Drive Shaft Stuff", showing the obvious advantage of using > rear shafts (easier hub/ thrust bearing mounting), and some examples > from other manufacturers. Apparently Mazda pick-ups have rear drive/ > independent rear suspension - which is the kind of thing you're > looking for. Might also be worth looking at Toyota, Mitsubishi, VW > and rear-drive European Fords. > All front wheel drive vehicles have CV jointed axles of course, but > unlike the rear units these will need modifying in order to mount. > If you can only source FWD CV-axles, then you could always use a > separate thrust bearing in a pillow-block between the stuffing-box > and the first CV joint. | 4211|4200|2004-06-17 04:11:29|moby_duck_2004|Re: discover|Might not some Christians find the reference to their religion in the Koran as the worship of a 3 headed god offensive? Demonizing their belief in god, the father, son and holy ghost. All Muslim males are required to participate once in their life in holy war (Jihad). It is their duty to attack Christians, because Islam is duty, and Christianity is a threat to Islam, through its worship of a false god. To this end, the Muslim army 1000 years ago marched into Jerusalem and defiled the tomb of Jesus, setting Muslims and Christians on a path of conflict that continues to this day. There are plenty of reasons to take offence at religious postings on this site. Phil is not the problem. What is offensive is a religion that teaches intolerance as justification to kill. There are widespread practices in Muslim countries, such as FGM, that are not talked about. They are inevitable in a polygamous society, where males have limited access to females. People may be offended to hear about these practices, but it is a mistake to shoot the messenger. Otherwise, the promoters of Islam can post to this group with impunity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Hey Phil: > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out of the group posts. > Mike > > > "Phil S." wrote: > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us all > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4212|4196|2004-06-17 12:21:13|audeojude|Re: Cat With Tanks|what's asme pipe? scott --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > I was thinking Instead of using old propane tanks and all of the associated risks with > welding on them you could use ASME pipe. > Phil | 4213|4196|2004-06-17 14:31:29|Dick Pilz|Re: Cat With Tanks|ASME pipe (note the caps) is pipe constructed to American Society of Mechanical Engineers Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code. It is used for pipe that is larger than standard plumbing sizes. It comes in several grades and ratings, depending on pressure range, temperature range, chemical resistance, etc. Although it is easy to specify, it can be hard to locate and still harder to pay for. Good luck finding any that is inexpensive. The ASME B&PV Code is the kind of specification written to please insurance underwriters and lawyers. Anything involved with it requires many kinds of certifications, inspections, and documentation. It is not cheap. Lots of paperwork to pay for. If I was concerned about liability coverage for third partys, I would consider it. Otherwise, just use common sense with materials and methods. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > what's asme pipe? > scott > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > > I was thinking Instead of using old propane tanks and all of the > associated risks with > > welding on them you could use ASME pipe. > > Phil | 4214|4200|2004-06-17 16:28:18|Henri Naths|Re: discover|Well said. H.N. ps-- there is no greater threat to freedom than a good man do nothing. ----- Original Message ----- From: moby_duck_2004 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 17 June, 2004 2:11 AM Subject: [origamiboats] re: discover Might not some Christians find the reference to their religion in the Koran as the worship of a 3 headed god offensive? Demonizing their belief in god, the father, son and holy ghost. All Muslim males are required to participate once in their life in holy war (Jihad). It is their duty to attack Christians, because Islam is duty, and Christianity is a threat to Islam, through its worship of a false god. To this end, the Muslim army 1000 years ago marched into Jerusalem and defiled the tomb of Jesus, setting Muslims and Christians on a path of conflict that continues to this day. There are plenty of reasons to take offence at religious postings on this site. Phil is not the problem. What is offensive is a religion that teaches intolerance as justification to kill. There are widespread practices in Muslim countries, such as FGM, that are not talked about. They are inevitable in a polygamous society, where males have limited access to females. People may be offended to hear about these practices, but it is a mistake to shoot the messenger. Otherwise, the promoters of Islam can post to this group with impunity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Hey Phil: > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out of the group posts. > Mike > > > "Phil S." wrote: > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us all > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4215|4200|2004-06-17 17:31:05|fmichael graham|Re: discover|Well, I'm not going to use this group to debate whether, or not, you have been within a mile of the "Koran", other than to say that your "suggestions" have NO basis in fact. You're welcome to e-mail me to discuss further. The point was, & still is, that I found the comment offensive & unnecessary, whereas, I found your post to be, for the most part, incorrect. Mike moby_duck_2004 wrote: Might not some Christians find the reference to their religion in the Koran as the worship of a 3 headed god offensive? Demonizing their belief in god, the father, son and holy ghost. All Muslim males are required to participate once in their life in holy war (Jihad). It is their duty to attack Christians, because Islam is duty, and Christianity is a threat to Islam, through its worship of a false god. To this end, the Muslim army 1000 years ago marched into Jerusalem and defiled the tomb of Jesus, setting Muslims and Christians on a path of conflict that continues to this day. There are plenty of reasons to take offence at religious postings on this site. Phil is not the problem. What is offensive is a religion that teaches intolerance as justification to kill. There are widespread practices in Muslim countries, such as FGM, that are not talked about. They are inevitable in a polygamous society, where males have limited access to females. People may be offended to hear about these practices, but it is a mistake to shoot the messenger. Otherwise, the promoters of Islam can post to this group with impunity. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Hey Phil: > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out of the group posts. > Mike > > > "Phil S." wrote: > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up our planet. Do us all > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4216|4196|2004-06-17 19:34:27|jim dorey|Re: Cat With Tanks|i think it means it's been graded to meet a particular spec of american society of mechanical engineers, but that's just a guess. audeojude wrote: > what's asme pipe? > scott -- http://www.skaar.101main.net http://www.PetitionOnline.com/spcdvd/ http://www.petitiononline.com/impjapan/petition-sign.html? moderator of wildsteam@yahoogroups.com DOM and proud!!!| 4217|4217|2004-06-18 03:22:46|romaxcn_23|Freedom Yachts 31' 1984 for sale|Dear Sir, Direct from the owner we have for sale Freedom Yachts 31' 1984 The Freedom 32' is a modern cat rig. It is exemplary of the innovative designs by Garry Hoyt and the Tillotson Pearson design group. The Freedom 32 utilizes the Tillotson Pearson high technology carbon fiber spar engineering with its ability to carry a spinnaker from its unstayed rig-unsupported by shrouds or running backstays. A fin keel and spade rudder are standard features. The Freedom 32 has the biggest interior possible in a 32 footer with two seperate, private, double staterooms and a large circular dinette in the main salon. She also includes a large navigation station. Vessel in good condition. Photos available at http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/m/1709/0/ . Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. I wait for your reply. Best regard. Loran Raul Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 RO Tel : +040 722702393 email:romaxcn_23@y...| 4218|3775|2004-06-18 06:09:11|onpmfmdb234|Important News for origamiboats Members|I was really far into debt. Like Most I was in Financial dispair. I could not seem to get ahead no matter how hard I tried. Untill I found this place. http://paceyourself.4all.cc If you are in debt they can help you out. Check them out today I did. This email was sent because you joined our group. If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com| 4219|4196|2004-06-18 09:02:28|Phil S.|Re: Cat With Tanks|Yes ASME pipe has been inspected for consistency and material certification to the American Society of Mechanical Engineers standards. The cool part is often you can get non code pipe made to the same dimensions for less money. Again this is where being in a manufacturing area helps because the scrap dealers may have left overs from different projects. Phil| 4220|4193|2004-06-18 11:42:14|John|Re: skeg cooling|About skeg cooling, I have a question ... a few questions. To begin, it seems a great idea, avoiding bringing raw water aboard and a heat exchanger and so on. But doesn't that now mean that the exhaust is hot? If raw water is not being dumped into the exhaust stream, then the exhaust pipe must be lead out the top as in fishing boats, or out through the topsides. And without the cooling water, isn't it kind of noisy ... or a muffler is added? Second question, is the area through wich the heat is dissipated of any concern? Does a heat loss calc have to be done? Most skegs or keels have a lot of area, so it is probably not an issue, but the question has to be asked. And does this heat flow have any effect on the paint? Third, is the cooling water mixed with anti-freeze or some other additive to fight corrosion in the cooling water system? Thanks all for the great comments and discussion. John Hodkinson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Use 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe.Put it in after the skeg is on the > hull, after the stern tube is in.Put the return above the aperture at > the back of the top of the skeg so it will have a circuitous route to > the bottom. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" > wrote: > > hello, > > am hoping to use skeg cooling. > > where do i need to place the pickup and return so as not to > interfer > > with shaft later. along sides ? directly behind leading edge pipe ? > > what kind of pipe should i use for these ? can i add these later or > > do i need them in place before attaching skeg ? > > > > -carl > > > > this questions pertains to a 36swain | 4221|4200|2004-06-18 13:41:23|moby_duck_2004|Re: discover|The issue is not how you interpret the Koran, it is how others interpret it. Religious fanaticism is being used to implement political fascism in the Muslim world, using similar methods and techniques as were employed in the last century in Europe. Those nations that stand up are being attacked. Those that seek appeasement are being left for later. Religious propaganda, seeking to justify murder for political ends is not spam. We should not allow this group to be used to promote this purpose, by sitting meekly, or mislabeling it as advertising. Christians can take no comfort in being labeled "infidels" for believing Christ is the son of God, any more than the many Bahi that have been put to death for believing Mohammed was not the final prophet. Phil's comments are offensive only because the circumstances are offensive. They are no less true. There are norms of behavior in Muslim society that are illegal in other societies. Where do you draw the line at tolerance? When they come for your neighbor, or only after they come for you? Those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Islam was used by Mohammed and a few followers to wage war against unbelievers (infidels) and eventually subjugate large areas, using a combination of jihad and martyrdom, the promise of paradise, and polygamy as a solution to the resulting shortage of men. It is a religion optimized for war, and Phil is to be saluted for speaking up against this group being used to that end. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Well, I'm not going to use this group to debate whether, or not, you have been within a mile of the "Koran", other than to say that your "suggestions" have NO basis in fact. You're welcome to e-mail me to discuss further. The point was, & still is, that I found the comment offensive & unnecessary, whereas, I found your post to be, for the most part, incorrect. > Mike > > moby_duck_2004 wrote: > Might not some Christians find the reference to their religion in the > Koran as the worship of a 3 headed god offensive? Demonizing their > belief in god, the father, son and holy ghost. > > All Muslim males are required to participate once in their life in > holy war (Jihad). It is their duty to attack Christians, because > Islam is duty, and Christianity is a threat to Islam, through its > worship of a false god. > > To this end, the Muslim army 1000 years ago marched into Jerusalem > and defiled the tomb of Jesus, setting Muslims and Christians on a > path of conflict that continues to this day. > > There are plenty of reasons to take offence at religious postings on > this site. Phil is not the problem. What is offensive is a religion > that teaches intolerance as justification to kill. > > There are widespread practices in Muslim countries, such as FGM, that > are not talked about. They are inevitable in a polygamous society, > where males have limited access to females. People may be offended > to hear about these practices, but it is a mistake to shoot the > messenger. Otherwise, the promoters of Islam can post to this group > with impunity. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > wrote: > > Hey Phil: > > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd > appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out > of the group posts. > > Mike > > > > > > "Phil S." wrote: > > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up > our planet. Do us all > > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4222|4222|2004-06-18 15:35:22|Henri Naths|cat with tanks|Scott, I Love the dream. I would be tempted to modifiy the stern to accodate a sugarscoop transon. Build a mini deck and bulkhead +access door to the interior (wow fantastic), 15/16 th' steel though, have you seen fg pipe made with spun wooving? If you could get/ make it in 9ft dia dia would be another story. Maybe 1/4' steel/alloy shell with interior stringers and deck to stiffen it up. It would simple to roll the 1/4 ' steel/alloy to a perfect O.... Cost = 5X30 ft sheetsX24 . Origami a bow .I like it, I may have to change my mind, I'm in the process of getting 20- 45gallon drums to weld together and fiberglass to make a two pontoon / hull cat. One question to all the designers/ engineers out there. Has anybody studied laminar flow of origami hulls in tank test? And if so can anyone venture a guess if it is conducive to a O shaped hulls for perfect laminar flow? Thanks in advance for any advice.H ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 18 June, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Cat With Tanks Yes ASME pipe has been inspected for consistency and material certification to the American Society of Mechanical Engineers standards. The cool part is often you can get non code pipe made to the same dimensions for less money. Again this is where being in a manufacturing area helps because the scrap dealers may have left overs from different projects. Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4223|4200|2004-06-18 15:51:13|Henri Naths|Re: discover|Again I appreciate your comments. There are places in this world where christians are raped and murdered en mass in the name of islam on a dayly basis and the media choses not publish it because it is not politically correct. We in north america lead a very sheltered life and chose to believe a very idealistic senario, lallygaging in our euphoria of "all thing are right" H. (ps get me that dam soapbox). ----- Original Message ----- From: moby_duck_2004 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 18 June, 2004 11:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: discover The issue is not how you interpret the Koran, it is how others interpret it. Religious fanaticism is being used to implement political fascism in the Muslim world, using similar methods and techniques as were employed in the last century in Europe. Those nations that stand up are being attacked. Those that seek appeasement are being left for later. Religious propaganda, seeking to justify murder for political ends is not spam. We should not allow this group to be used to promote this purpose, by sitting meekly, or mislabeling it as advertising. Christians can take no comfort in being labeled "infidels" for believing Christ is the son of God, any more than the many Bahi that have been put to death for believing Mohammed was not the final prophet. Phil's comments are offensive only because the circumstances are offensive. They are no less true. There are norms of behavior in Muslim society that are illegal in other societies. Where do you draw the line at tolerance? When they come for your neighbor, or only after they come for you? Those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Islam was used by Mohammed and a few followers to wage war against unbelievers (infidels) and eventually subjugate large areas, using a combination of jihad and martyrdom, the promise of paradise, and polygamy as a solution to the resulting shortage of men. It is a religion optimized for war, and Phil is to be saluted for speaking up against this group being used to that end. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > Well, I'm not going to use this group to debate whether, or not, you have been within a mile of the "Koran", other than to say that your "suggestions" have NO basis in fact. You're welcome to e-mail me to discuss further. The point was, & still is, that I found the comment offensive & unnecessary, whereas, I found your post to be, for the most part, incorrect. > Mike > > moby_duck_2004 wrote: > Might not some Christians find the reference to their religion in the > Koran as the worship of a 3 headed god offensive? Demonizing their > belief in god, the father, son and holy ghost. > > All Muslim males are required to participate once in their life in > holy war (Jihad). It is their duty to attack Christians, because > Islam is duty, and Christianity is a threat to Islam, through its > worship of a false god. > > To this end, the Muslim army 1000 years ago marched into Jerusalem > and defiled the tomb of Jesus, setting Muslims and Christians on a > path of conflict that continues to this day. > > There are plenty of reasons to take offence at religious postings on > this site. Phil is not the problem. What is offensive is a religion > that teaches intolerance as justification to kill. > > There are widespread practices in Muslim countries, such as FGM, that > are not talked about. They are inevitable in a polygamous society, > where males have limited access to females. People may be offended > to hear about these practices, but it is a mistake to shoot the > messenger. Otherwise, the promoters of Islam can post to this group > with impunity. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham > wrote: > > Hey Phil: > > I understand if your frustrated with the spamming but I'd > appreciate it if you kept your offensive comments about Muslims out > of the group posts. > > Mike > > > > > > "Phil S." wrote: > > I am so sick of you Insane pedophile followers (Muslims) mucking up > our planet. Do us all > > a favor and go meet allah personally. > > > > > > --------------------------------- > > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4224|4193|2004-06-18 15:58:52|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|I just sailed home from Tonga with another boat which had corroded out two engines since 1996 with wet exhausts. Brian on Metalboatsociety.com said that a diesel mechanic told him that if everyone went for dry exhuasts and keel cooling the diesel repair people would all be out of work. Allen Farrell said he fought with wet exhuasts for years while people were telling him" You can't use a dry exhuast on a sailboat." He then ignored them, put in a dry exhuast and never touched it for 15 years.I think promoting wet exhuasts is a" make work project" for people in the diesel repair business. I run the dry exhuast thru the transom, putting a six inch by 1/8th inch stainless ring around it where it exits the transom, to separate the heat from the transom plate.From it's exit thru the transom. about 6 inches above the waterline, I turn it downward via an elbow, then again turn it aft six inches below the water with a urbber flap check valvbe to stop seas from surging in. I put a 1/4 inch antisiphon hole in the top elbow.By running it below the water, you eliminate the need for a muffler. All you hear is a gurgling sound. It takes roughly 1,5 sq ft of surface area for every ten HP of engine.The skeg on a 36 footer is probably enouigh surface area for a 150HP motor.It never gets noticably warm, and after motoring for days in the tropics, the return line is still cool to the touch. The thermostat controls the engine temperature enough. This subject is covered elsewhere on this site. Brent swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote: > About skeg cooling, I have a question ... a few questions. To begin, > it seems a great idea, avoiding bringing raw water aboard and a heat > exchanger and so on. But doesn't that now mean that the exhaust is > hot? If raw water is not being dumped into the exhaust stream, then > the exhaust pipe must be lead out the top as in fishing boats, or out > through the topsides. And without the cooling water, isn't it kind > of noisy ... or a muffler is added? > > Second question, is the area through wich the heat is dissipated of > any concern? Does a heat loss calc have to be done? Most skegs or > keels have a lot of area, so it is probably not an issue, but the > question has to be asked. And does this heat flow have any effect on > the paint? > > Third, is the cooling water mixed with anti-freeze or some other > additive to fight corrosion in the cooling water system? > > Thanks all for the great comments and discussion. > > John Hodkinson > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Use 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe.Put it in after the skeg is on > the > > hull, after the stern tube is in.Put the return above the aperture > at > > the back of the top of the skeg so it will have a circuitous route > to > > the bottom. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" > > wrote: > > > hello, > > > am hoping to use skeg cooling. > > > where do i need to place the pickup and return so as not to > > interfer > > > with shaft later. along sides ? directly behind leading edge > pipe ? > > > what kind of pipe should i use for these ? can i add these later > or > > > do i need them in place before attaching skeg ? > > > > > > -carl > > > > > > this questions pertains to a 36swain | 4225|3775|2004-06-18 16:04:20|brentswain38|Re: Important News for origamiboats Members|Build a boat in secret,move aboard, abandon the consumer society, cut your cost of living by 90%, and go cruising . I always thought "Court of Appeal" would be a good name for a boat.I've met a lot of people out cruising who did just that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "onpmfmdb234" wrote: > I was really far into debt. > Like Most I was in Financial dispair. > I could not seem to get ahead no matter how hard I tried. > Untill I found this place. > http://paceyourself.4all.cc > If you are in debt they can help you out. > Check them out today I did. > This email was sent because you joined our group. > If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. > by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com | 4226|4200|2004-06-18 16:18:20|sae140|Re: discover|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "moby_duck_2004" wrote: > Might not some Christians find the reference to their religion in the > Koran as the worship of a 3 headed god offensive? Demonizing their > belief in god, the father, son and holy ghost. > Might not some jews find the reference to their god in the new testament of the christian bible as being "a devil", "lustful", "a liar" and "a murderer from the beginning" (St. John 8:44) equally offensive ? I reckon all book-based monotheisms are as bad as one another. I say let's bring back the greek gods - worship whoever or whatever you fancy, and plenty of 'em to go around .... Colin| 4227|4227|2004-06-18 17:41:05|Michael Casling|Re: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News f|There was a boat sitting alongside highway 1 about 5 miles East of Chilliwack by that name. It was there in the early seventies until about 5 years ago. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News for origamiboats Members Build a boat in secret,move aboard, abandon the consumer society, cut your cost of living by 90%, and go cruising . I always thought "Court of Appeal" would be a good name for a boat.I've met a lot of people out cruising who did just that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "onpmfmdb234" wrote: > I was really far into debt. > Like Most I was in Financial dispair. > I could not seem to get ahead no matter how hard I tried. > Untill I found this place. > http://paceyourself.4all.cc > If you are in debt they can help you out. > Check them out today I did. > This email was sent because you joined our group. > If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. > by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4228|4222|2004-06-18 18:30:28|audeojude|Re: cat with tanks|Hey Phil, The dream is fun isn't it :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Scott, > I Love the dream. I would be tempted to modifiy the stern to accodate a sugarscoop transon. I had thought about this but instead of a sugar scoop how about a platform that is at deck level under way and lower down to the water when anchored or on the spuds that is to the rear of the vessel between the hulls. If you built it from scratch it wouldn't be to much extra work to build a sugar scoop.. still more work but maybe not excessive. However if your using a tank I would not cut the ends off the tank. Why cut up a perfectly welded and water tight hull. Just cut access hatches in the top where needed and maybe port holes and any thru hulls you need. But don't do anything to mess with the inherent structural integrety that someone else has already done the labor on. For your bow just weld on a 4 or 5 mill origami bow and put your anchor and chains etc up there. call it your crumple factor forward bumper :) can you imagine a front section as tough as most steel boats that is your designed give for impact. I'm not sure in the end that the 15/16th inch thick steel hull would be a good or bad thing. It would be like living in a armoured tank. big wave lands on you well so what if your under 30 ft of water for 30 seconds or so. just call it your submarine :) As long as you broke up each hull with 4 or 5 bulkheads with waterproof dogging doors in them you would be virtually unsinkable other than acts of man with artillary and 50 cal machine guns :) it would take big engines to move it and big sails.. I really do like the junk rig sails for this application. very easy to handle and you could put up about 3000 sq ft in 4 sails using tyvec or something simalar fairly cheaply. Your running rigging would hurt the pocket though. this thick would also be real heavy to jack out of water on your spuds i think.... but then again I think this has all been done before using barges as the base. I think the hardest parts would be the equipment to handle working 1 inch thick steel.. welders.. cranes .. cutting equipment etc.... however i will admit to ignorance on this aspect of it. light stuff like brents designs you don't need heavy duty equipment and i have some of it already sitting around. I'm just not sure what you would need for something this big and it's bound to be expensive. Also I doubt that you could handle working on something this size without a group of skilled people.. skilled at moving and dealing with multi-ton structures and parts. ok my brain is fried by the unknowns for the day. :) i will think about it more this weekend :) scott | 4229|4222|2004-06-18 20:24:06|Glen|Re: cat with tanks|Liking this thread very much so here maybe another idea ?! I drive truck for a living and was out today shaw a very large tank being moved. I asked and basically it was a storage tank for diesel. It measured 8 feet in diameter and a good 40 feet long. Other than having two big welded caps at each end and a few valves in the mid section it looked very good to me. I am not sure of the wall thickness as I had to leave however I'm thinking that due to the fact it was just a storage tank the thinkness should not have been 15/16 or am I out to lunch ? The tank would not have been under pressure as it was a gravity feed system. This I know for a fact due to where it came from. Anyone have any thoughts on this or would the wall fall under the ASME ?? Glen| 4230|4193|2004-06-19 03:47:25|edward_stoneuk|Re: skeg cooling|Brent, I didn't see any reference to reinforcing the leading edge pipe on the skeg of a bilge keeler in the drawings or book. Has there been a failure or damage to such a skeg? I have built mine now but would it be worthwhile to replace the pipe with a 2" round bar? Regards, Ted| 4231|4227|2004-06-19 09:46:53|Henri Naths|Re: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News f|I remember the "Court of Appeal" H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 18 June, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News for origamiboats Members There was a boat sitting alongside highway 1 about 5 miles East of Chilliwack by that name. It was there in the early seventies until about 5 years ago. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News for origamiboats Members Build a boat in secret,move aboard, abandon the consumer society, cut your cost of living by 90%, and go cruising . I always thought "Court of Appeal" would be a good name for a boat.I've met a lot of people out cruising who did just that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "onpmfmdb234" wrote: > I was really far into debt. > Like Most I was in Financial dispair. > I could not seem to get ahead no matter how hard I tried. > Untill I found this place. > http://paceyourself.4all.cc > If you are in debt they can help you out. > Check them out today I did. > This email was sent because you joined our group. > If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. > by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4232|4222|2004-06-19 10:42:56|Phil S.|Re: cat with tanks|My WAG (Wild Ass Guess) is that it wouldn't be a code tank as for the most part they cover either pressure or vacuum. It could be as thin as 1/4", as that would be plenty strong enough to hold the pressure of the weight of an 8' cylinder of diesel. Cool to dream about the possibilities. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Glen" wrote: > Liking this thread very much so here maybe another idea ?! > > I drive truck for a living and was out today shaw a very large tank > being moved. I asked and basically it was a storage tank for > diesel. It measured 8 feet in diameter and a good 40 feet long. > Other than having two big welded caps at each end and a few valves > in the mid section it looked very good to me. I am not sure of the > wall thickness as I had to leave however I'm thinking that due to > the fact it was just a storage tank the thinkness should not have > been 15/16 or am I out to lunch ? The tank would not have been > under pressure as it was a gravity feed system. This I know for a > fact due to where it came from. Anyone have any thoughts on this or > would the wall fall under the ASME ?? > > Glen | 4233|22|2004-06-19 21:14:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /OrigamiTrolleryacht/50ftr.jpg Uploaded by : Newbarndesign Description : Hull lines for 50ft Origami troller You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/OrigamiTrolleryacht/50ftr.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, Newbarndesign | 4234|4234|2004-06-20 15:15:33|Courtney Thomas|"exploding" winches !|I recently heard of some Barient winches allegedly exploding. Does anyone have any knowledge of such catastrophic failure occurring "particularly/especially" in Barient or any other type winch. I realize that any winch can be put under sufficient load so as to fail, but is there some known predisposition of Barient winches to inexplicably or unreasonably.....fail ? Appreciatively, Courtney Thomas -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4235|4234|2004-06-20 15:32:16|Robert Gainer|Re: "exploding" winches !|I was in the boat repair business for over 20 years and never heard of this. The only trouble that I have seen in Barient is when people don�t grease them and the mechanism jammed so the winch will jump back a notch. Even then I never saw one run backwards more then one click. I have seen some old Asian-built boats that had winches that were copies of old style American winches and they failed. Bob >From: Courtney Thomas >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] "exploding" winches ! >Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:26:45 -0500 > >I recently heard of some Barient winches allegedly exploding. > >Does anyone have any knowledge of such catastrophic failure occurring >"particularly/especially" in Barient or any other type winch. > >I realize that any winch can be put under sufficient load so as to fail, >but is there some known predisposition of Barient winches to >inexplicably or unreasonably.....fail ? > >Appreciatively, >Courtney Thomas >-- >s/v Mutiny >Rhodes Bounty II >lying Oriental, NC >WDB5619 > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups � now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/| 4236|4234|2004-06-20 15:42:15|Robert Gainer|Re: "exploding" winches !|Now that I think of it Merriman-Holbrook made some winches with a sintered bronze base and they would explode with parts shooting out all over the place. They stopped making them 30 years ago after a very short production run. I don�t think you can find any of them now, and they were for small boats only. Bob >From: "Robert Gainer" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [origamiboats] "exploding" winches ! >Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:32:16 +0000 > >I was in the boat repair business for over 20 years and never heard of >this. >The only trouble that I have seen in Barient is when people don�t grease >them and the mechanism jammed so the winch will jump back a notch. Even >then >I never saw one run backwards more then one click. I have seen some old >Asian-built boats that had winches that were copies of old style American >winches and they failed. >Bob > > > > >From: Courtney Thomas > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] "exploding" winches ! > >Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:26:45 -0500 > > > >I recently heard of some Barient winches allegedly exploding. > > > >Does anyone have any knowledge of such catastrophic failure occurring > >"particularly/especially" in Barient or any other type winch. > > > >I realize that any winch can be put under sufficient load so as to fail, > >but is there some known predisposition of Barient winches to > >inexplicably or unreasonably.....fail ? > > > >Appreciatively, > >Courtney Thomas > >-- > >s/v Mutiny > >Rhodes Bounty II > >lying Oriental, NC > >WDB5619 > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups � now 3 months FREE! >http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ > > > > >To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood! http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/| 4237|4227|2004-06-21 00:20:04|Michael Casling|Re: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News f|I used to wonder about the circumstances surrounding the boat, it was there forever and then one day it was gone. I think it was about 37 feet, heavy looking with a full keel and dark green. I do not think it was steel but I never stopped and had a close look. Maybe it went down the freeway and is now in the big puddle. Do I have the name correct or is my memory getting fuzzy. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News for origamiboats Members I remember the "Court of Appeal" H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 18 June, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News for origamiboats Members There was a boat sitting alongside highway 1 about 5 miles East of Chilliwack by that name. It was there in the early seventies until about 5 years ago. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: [Shaw Suspected Junk Email] [origamiboats] Re: Important News for origamiboats Members Build a boat in secret,move aboard, abandon the consumer society, cut your cost of living by 90%, and go cruising . I always thought "Court of Appeal" would be a good name for a boat.I've met a lot of people out cruising who did just that. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "onpmfmdb234" wrote: > I was really far into debt. > Like Most I was in Financial dispair. > I could not seem to get ahead no matter how hard I tried. > Untill I found this place. > http://paceyourself.4all.cc > If you are in debt they can help you out. > Check them out today I did. > This email was sent because you joined our group. > If you do not wish to recieve any emails, unsubscribe. > by sending a mail here origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4238|4193|2004-06-21 00:28:41|Michael Casling|Re: skeg cooling|I am going to use a dry exhaust and a muffler on my fishing boat and will put fans in as well. That's the way they used to do it as you say on the fishing boats. The pipe going up through the cabin makes a good heater if you live in England. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 8:41 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: skeg cooling About skeg cooling, I have a question ... a few questions. To begin, it seems a great idea, avoiding bringing raw water aboard and a heat exchanger and so on. But doesn't that now mean that the exhaust is hot? If raw water is not being dumped into the exhaust stream, then the exhaust pipe must be lead out the top as in fishing boats, or out through the topsides. And without the cooling water, isn't it kind of noisy ... or a muffler is added? Second question, is the area through wich the heat is dissipated of any concern? Does a heat loss calc have to be done? Most skegs or keels have a lot of area, so it is probably not an issue, but the question has to be asked. And does this heat flow have any effect on the paint? Third, is the cooling water mixed with anti-freeze or some other additive to fight corrosion in the cooling water system? Thanks all for the great comments and discussion. John Hodkinson --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Use 3/4 inch sch 40 stainless pipe.Put it in after the skeg is on the > hull, after the stern tube is in.Put the return above the aperture at > the back of the top of the skeg so it will have a circuitous route to > the bottom. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "carlmbentley" > wrote: > > hello, > > am hoping to use skeg cooling. > > where do i need to place the pickup and return so as not to > interfer > > with shaft later. along sides ? directly behind leading edge pipe ? > > what kind of pipe should i use for these ? can i add these later or > > do i need them in place before attaching skeg ? > > > > -carl > > > > this questions pertains to a 36swain To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4239|4234|2004-06-21 10:41:16|Glen|Re: "exploding" winches !|The only trouble I've ever heard of was from all winches and the problem was due to a constant strain on the wire rope or rope being wound too tight around the drum and then the drum failing or collapsing. This again is in extreme cases and as Robert I have not heard of anything recently. Glen| 4240|3890|2004-06-21 15:07:36|Gerald Niffenegger|Flame Spray|Forgot to tell you guys that there were a couple of wire flame spray guns for sale on ebay, so I went ahead and bought both. I was quoted 8,000 US$ for a new wire gun here in Brazil and 15,000US$ for complete set up with regulators and flow gauges etc. That was for a Metco 14E. I bought a 4E for 102US$. I talked to a guy here that has a 14E and had a 4E. He reported little difference between the operation of the two??? BTW, There are two wire gun for sale right now. Type Metco in the search feature. The one starting at $200 sure is a pretty thing! Gerald| 4241|4241|2004-06-23 12:05:42|withamazinggrace|Steel mast weight|Does anyone have the weight/foot of the steel tubing used for masts? Gord| 4242|4241|2004-06-23 14:37:21|Phil S.|Re: Steel mast weight|Look here they have a pretty good chart. http://www.rathmfg.com/b4.htm Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "withamazinggrace" wrote: > Does anyone have the weight/foot of the steel tubing used for masts? > Gord | 4243|4243|2004-06-23 14:38:12|Phil S.|dry exhuast|| 4244|4244|2004-06-23 14:44:41|Phil S.|Dry Exhaust|oops hit return to fast. Could you run the dry exhaust like brent does out the side of the boat? I want to have my cabin in the stern and am a little nervous about running the exhaust pipe under it then up and out. Phil| 4245|4241|2004-06-23 15:48:54|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Steel mast weight|Interesting what Dix has to say about steel mast weight. http://dixdesign.com/FAQsteel.htm Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "withamazinggrace" wrote: > Does anyone have the weight/foot of the steel tubing used for masts? > Gord | 4246|4244|2004-06-23 18:10:55|denis buggy|Re: Dry Exhaust|dear Phil if you carefully mount your dry exhaust in another pipe twice its size or bigger and leave it 2 inches short on the exhaust side , it will create a vacuum in your engine room and keep it fume free and lower the temp as long as you supply a vent at the other end of your engine room roof to enable air to flow . no fan required take a look at any medium sized trawler to see how it is done . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust oops hit return to fast. Could you run the dry exhaust like brent does out the side of the boat? I want to have my cabin in the stern and am a little nervous about running the exhaust pipe under it then up and out. Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4247|4244|2004-06-23 19:26:25|brentswain38|Re: Dry Exhaust|Running it out the side of the hull worked well on my last boat. I made the under water part so it would swing up if it hit anything.I could also swing it up manually in respose to loud stereos in an otherwise quiet anchorage . Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > oops hit return to fast. > > Could you run the dry exhaust like brent does out the side of the boat? I want to have my > cabin in the stern and am a little nervous about running the exhaust pipe under it then up > and out. > Phil | 4248|4193|2004-06-23 19:29:12|brentswain38|Re: skeg cooling|No one has suffered dammage that way, but putting the bar inside would be a precaution. You can slide it up in short chunks from the bottom if neccesary, after jacking the stern up a bit. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Brent, > > I didn't see any reference to reinforcing the leading edge pipe on > the skeg of a bilge keeler in the drawings or book. Has there been > a failure or damage to such a skeg? I have built mine now but would > it be worthwhile to replace the pipe with a 2" round bar? > > Regards, > Ted | 4249|4244|2004-06-24 08:40:19|Phil S.|Re: Dry Exhaust|Cool Idea, unfortunately there aren't many trawlers around Rochester NY. MAybe when I get to Vancouver in two weeks. phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Phil if you carefully mount your dry exhaust in another pipe twice its size or bigger and leave it 2 inches short on the exhaust side , it will create a vacuum in your engine room and keep it fume free and lower the temp as long as you supply a vent at the other end of your engine room roof to enable air to flow . no fan required take a look at any medium sized trawler to see how it is done . regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Phil S. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 7:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Dry Exhaust > > > oops hit return to fast. > > Could you run the dry exhaust like brent does out the side of the boat? I want to have my > cabin in the stern and am a little nervous about running the exhaust pipe under it then up > and out. > Phil > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4250|4244|2004-06-24 08:42:55|Phil S.|Re: Dry Exhaust|Outstanding Brent, I like the idea of being able to adjust the noise for the surrounding conditions. Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Running it out the side of the hull worked well on my last boat. I > made the under water part so it would swing up if it hit anything.I > could also swing it up manually in respose to loud stereos in an > otherwise quiet anchorage . > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." > wrote: > > oops hit return to fast. > > > > Could you run the dry exhaust like brent does out the side of the > boat? I want to have my > > cabin in the stern and am a little nervous about running the > exhaust pipe under it then up > > and out. > > Phil | 4251|4251|2004-06-24 12:24:20|romaxcn_23|Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht for sale|Dear Sir, Direct from the owner we have for sale Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht op-top with vinyl enclosures, swing keel, All Teak inside and out cleaned and refinished, New beautifully finished Laminated Ash and Mahogany tiller, bow rail, stern rail, lifelines, porta pottie, mast tabernacle, factory stern mount swim ladder, motor bracket, Sliding kitchenette, lines lead back to cockpit for single handed sailing, Navigation and cabin lights, Adjustable split backstay, 4:1 purchase Main sheet vang, 3:1 purchase boom vang, mast winch, Original Jib and main, Sleeps five, lots of storage with two lazerettes in the cockpit, Cockpit cushions Vessel in good condition. Photos available at http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/m/1746/0/ . Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. I wait for your reply. Best regard. Loran Raul Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 RO Tel : +040 722702393 email:romaxcn_23@y...| 4252|4251|2004-06-24 12:30:19|Gerd|Re: Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht for sale|Please... although i could understand commercial postings if this was to advertise a boat that somehow is of interest to this group, say a second hand BS for example, I do resent if this is now used to spam us with advertisements for 22' plastic boats, as then there is no limit and an open ivitation to have every broker on the planet hawk his stuff here. You have a very nice web site to present yourself - please remain there. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "romaxcn_23" wrote: > Dear Sir, > Direct from the owner we have for sale Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht > > op-top with vinyl enclosures, swing keel, All Teak inside and out > cleaned and refinished, New beautifully finished Laminated Ash and > Mahogany tiller, bow rail, stern rail, lifelines, porta pottie, mast > tabernacle, factory stern mount swim ladder, motor bracket, Sliding > kitchenette, lines lead back to cockpit for single handed sailing, > Navigation and cabin lights, Adjustable split backstay, 4:1 purchase > Main sheet vang, 3:1 purchase boom vang, mast winch, Original Jib and > main, Sleeps five, lots of storage with two lazerettes in the cockpit, > Cockpit cushions > > > > Vessel in good condition. > Photos available at > > > > http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/m/1746/0/ > . > Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. > I wait for your reply. > Best regard. > > Loran Raul > Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B > ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 > RO > Tel : +040 722702393 > email:romaxcn_23@y... | 4253|4241|2004-06-24 14:54:44|gschnell|Re: Steel mast weight|Thanks Phil. What diameter and schedule does Brent recommend? Gord "Phil S." wrote: > Look here they have a pretty good chart. > > http://www.rathmfg.com/b4.htm > Phil > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "withamazinggrace" > wrote: > > Does anyone have the weight/foot of the steel tubing used for masts? > > > Gord > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4254|4241|2004-06-24 15:12:07|jumpaltair|Re: Steel mast weight|I recall from an earlier post that Brent said 6" 11 gauge is what most people have used. Peter --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, gschnell wrote: > Thanks Phil. What diameter and schedule does Brent recommend? > Gord > > > "Phil S." wrote: > > > Look here they have a pretty good chart. > > > > http://www.rathmfg.com/b4.htm > > Phil > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "withamazinggrace" > > wrote: > > > Does anyone have the weight/foot of the steel tubing used for masts? > > > > > Gord > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [Image] > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > > Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4255|4251|2004-06-24 20:57:30|brentswain38|Re: Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht for sale|I wouldn't recommend a catalina to my worst enemy. They appear to be some of the flimsiest , most poorly balanced boats afloat. Most appear to need a major redesign of the grossly unbalanced rudder to be managable downwind in heavy seas.The hull shapes appear to be grossly unbalanced, having very little directional stability.The lifelines are grossly inadequate. All they are able to do is make sure that you hit the water head first instead of feet first when you fall overboard.Not much of a help. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "romaxcn_23" wrote: > Dear Sir, > Direct from the owner we have for sale Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht > > op-top with vinyl enclosures, swing keel, All Teak inside and out > cleaned and refinished, New beautifully finished Laminated Ash and > Mahogany tiller, bow rail, stern rail, lifelines, porta pottie, mast > tabernacle, factory stern mount swim ladder, motor bracket, Sliding > kitchenette, lines lead back to cockpit for single handed sailing, > Navigation and cabin lights, Adjustable split backstay, 4:1 purchase > Main sheet vang, 3:1 purchase boom vang, mast winch, Original Jib and > main, Sleeps five, lots of storage with two lazerettes in the cockpit, > Cockpit cushions > > > > Vessel in good condition. > Photos available at > > > > http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/m/1746/0/ > . > Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. > I wait for your reply. > Best regard. > > Loran Raul > Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B > ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 > RO > Tel : +040 722702393 > email:romaxcn_23@y... | 4256|4251|2004-06-24 21:05:31|Michael Casling|Re: Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht for sale|Brent your comments would be more suitable for a Catalina 27. There are many new rudder shapes that help, the hull is still too weak and the hatch is too big and the deck is too narrow and the hull flexes, and they sold lots of them, and one has even been all the way around. I do not like them yet in moderate conditions they sail okay and are as quick as most boats that size. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht for sale I wouldn't recommend a catalina to my worst enemy. They appear to be some of the flimsiest , most poorly balanced boats afloat. Most appear to need a major redesign of the grossly unbalanced rudder to be managable downwind in heavy seas.The hull shapes appear to be grossly unbalanced, having very little directional stability.The lifelines are grossly inadequate. All they are able to do is make sure that you hit the water head first instead of feet first when you fall overboard.Not much of a help. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "romaxcn_23" wrote: > Dear Sir, > Direct from the owner we have for sale Catalina 22 1985 sailboat yacht > > op-top with vinyl enclosures, swing keel, All Teak inside and out > cleaned and refinished, New beautifully finished Laminated Ash and > Mahogany tiller, bow rail, stern rail, lifelines, porta pottie, mast > tabernacle, factory stern mount swim ladder, motor bracket, Sliding > kitchenette, lines lead back to cockpit for single handed sailing, > Navigation and cabin lights, Adjustable split backstay, 4:1 purchase > Main sheet vang, 3:1 purchase boom vang, mast winch, Original Jib and > main, Sleeps five, lots of storage with two lazerettes in the cockpit, > Cockpit cushions > > > > Vessel in good condition. > Photos available at > > > > http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/m/1746/0/ > . > Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. > I wait for your reply. > Best regard. > > Loran Raul > Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B > ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 > RO > Tel : +040 722702393 > email:romaxcn_23@y... To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4257|4257|2004-06-25 04:24:39|Gerald Niffenegger|Fuel and Water tanks|I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to place the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel hull as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat the tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? Gerald| 4258|4257|2004-06-25 09:55:35|Gary|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|For my 36' bilge keeler, I am thinking of the pliable poly containers in the tops of the twin keels for watertanks. Have you thought of this option? Just wondering... Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to place > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel hull > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat the > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > Gerald | 4259|4257|2004-06-25 12:03:28|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|I had some collapsible tanks in another boat and I currently have a 25 gallon collapsible in my boat. The one in my current boat is inside a nylon bag and funcitons just fine. Like they say ...... ya get out of your water system just what you put into it. In my other boat I put in some bad water and the bags are a bear to clean. In the new boat I plan to have 500 litros of water and 200 fuel. The bags are kind of expensive and you still need to build a container or some kind to put them in. Just looking for other options. Of course stainless is another option but again, expensive! Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" wrote: > For my 36' bilge keeler, I am thinking of the pliable poly > containers in the tops of the twin keels for watertanks. Have you > thought of this option? Just wondering... > > Gary > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to > place > > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel > hull > > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat the > > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > > Gerald | 4260|4257|2004-06-25 12:42:10|gschnell|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|I built 7 integral tanks beneath the floor plates and used the hull/keel as the tank bottom. Tankage consists of two fuel tanks in the keel for a total volume of 170 gals., two water tanks either side of the keel for a total of 200 gals. and a waste tank forward of the keel for approx. 45 gals.. These tanks were sandblasted and the inside painted with a "Food Grade" epoxy from Hempel Paints.. Gord Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to place > > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel hull > > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat the > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4261|4257|2004-06-25 13:04:46|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|The Bones has drop-in 1/8" steel tanks, painted on the outside with coal tar, and on the inside with tank epoxy. Some epoxies (coal tar) may leach toxins into the drinking water. Look for one that is rated for potable water. The lid is secured with SS bolts, drilled through the flange, with the heads welded from the inside, prior to painting. The lid is bolted onto the flange with a neoprene gasket, with handles on top of the lids for removal. The filler, vent and drain pipes are welded to a small access plate, that is attached to the lid in a similar manner as the lid to the tank. This allows minor servicing of the tanks without removing the lid. The lids are bolt on rather than weld on to simplify blasting and painting, which can be next to impossible through an access port, especially with baffles in place. The tanks are drop-in for the same reason. The tanks all run longitudinally, with baffles, and minimal volume athwart-ships. Athwart-ships tanks should be divided, not simply baffled, to minimize fuel and water shifting to leeward. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Fuel and Water tanks > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to place > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel hull > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat the > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > Gerald > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4262|4257|2004-06-26 18:56:45|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|I usually put built in tanks between the twin keels or on the centreline above the ballast on a single keeler . These are watertanks. Where the edge of the tank top meets the hull is a strong point , at least as strong as the centreline. This lets you end the transverse stiffners over the twin keels there, with a fore and aft gusset along the tank seam to carry the weight on the end of the stiffener to the tank edge seam. I put a transverse baffle halfway along and a 1 ft by 2 ft inspection plate straddling this baffle. This lets you stick your head in either side of the baffle and see every sq inch of the inside of the tank, and lets you reach every sq inch within arms length. Without the structural strength of the built in tank ,the tranverse webs accross the twin keels would have to go all the way to the centreline, making it very hard to fit any other kind of tank in this area. This would force you to use other valuable storage areas for tanks. Putting a plexi window straddling the baffle lets you see the inside of the tank any time as well as the bottom of the tank which is the hull. Dropping pre built tanks into a hull makes the area between the tank and the hull often imposible to inspect without taking your interior apart. As this area is in the bilge, in the wettest and most corrosion prone part of the hull, drop in tanks can lead to unforseen problems between the hull and tank .Pre built removeable tanks are also much heavier and far more labour intensive. One client with a single keel 36 footer used stainles angle for the tank edge , and made the entire top out of removeable stainless plate . On the single keeler, the back of the keel behind the ballast makes a 70 gallon fuel tank, again with a large inspection plate and window . On the twin keler I build a fuel tank below the wheelhouse floor, with a gap between that and the watertank to act as a sump. It's up to the owner to decide how much of this space he wants to use for tankage and how much for easily accessible storage. He can weld the fore and aft plates in, then take a 5 gallon bucket and a hose and put as many gallons of water as he wants for fuel to determine where he wants to put the top, then blast a drain hole from the oputside with a hot 6011, drain the water out, fill the hole and put the top on. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The Bones has drop-in 1/8" steel tanks, painted on the outside with coal tar, and on the inside with tank epoxy. Some epoxies (coal > tar) may leach toxins into the drinking water. Look for one that is rated for potable water. The lid is secured with SS bolts, > drilled through the flange, with the heads welded from the inside, prior to painting. The lid is bolted onto the flange with a > neoprene gasket, with handles on top of the lids for removal. The filler, vent and drain pipes are welded to a small access plate, > that is attached to the lid in a similar manner as the lid to the tank. This allows minor servicing of the tanks without removing > the lid. The lids are bolt on rather than weld on to simplify blasting and painting, which can be next to impossible through an > access port, especially with baffles in place. The tanks are drop- in for the same reason. The tanks all run longitudinally, with > baffles, and minimal volume athwart-ships. Athwart-ships tanks should be divided, not simply baffled, to minimize fuel and water > shifting to leeward. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > To: > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:23 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to place > > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel hull > > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat the > > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4263|4257|2004-06-26 23:56:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Integral tanks are fine if you have a way to service them. I've seen plenty of Roberts with rusting frames and stringers inside their integral tanks, and no good way to service them. I blasted and painted one such tank, hanging upside down in the bilge through an access hole, and would never do it again. We had sulfite bacteria eat through the fuel tanks from contaminated fuel in Fiji, like they were cut with a torch. I was plenty happy they were drop in. We pulled them out with the boom, welded, blasted, and painted, while we continued to live aboard with a 6 month old child. The Bones has continuous access hatches down the center of the floors, with all wiring, piping, and tank tops exposed to simplify maintenance and repairs. Drop-in tanks are simplified in origami, because there is limited transverse framing to restrict tank sizes the way it does in transverse framed boats, and stress risers and puncture points can be avoided by eliminating transverse tank members welded directly to the hull. The CG of the tanks is below CB, so they are ballast. Seal the tanks to the hull with a couple of cans of spray foam, and paint over with something that stays a little flexible. If water does seep into the void, there is not enough air circulation to promote corrosion. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 3:56 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > I usually put built in tanks between the twin keels or on the > centreline above the ballast on a single keeler . These are > watertanks. Where the edge of the tank top meets the hull is a strong > point , at least as strong as the centreline. This lets you end the > transverse stiffners over the twin keels there, with a fore and aft > gusset along the tank seam to carry the weight on the end of the > stiffener to the tank edge seam. > I put a transverse baffle halfway along and a 1 ft by 2 ft > inspection plate straddling this baffle. This lets you stick your > head in either side of the baffle and see every sq inch of the inside > of the tank, and lets you reach every sq inch within arms length. > Without the structural strength of the built in tank ,the tranverse > webs accross the twin keels would have to go all the way to the > centreline, making it very hard to fit any other kind of tank in this > area. This would force you to use other valuable storage areas for > tanks. > Putting a plexi window straddling the baffle lets you see the > inside of the tank any time as well as the bottom of the tank which > is the hull. Dropping pre built tanks into a hull makes the area > between the tank and the hull often imposible to inspect without > taking your interior apart. As this area is in the bilge, in the > wettest and most corrosion prone part of the hull, drop in tanks can > lead to unforseen problems between the hull and tank .Pre built > removeable tanks are also much heavier and far more labour intensive. > One client with a single keel 36 footer used stainles angle for the > tank edge , and made the entire top out of removeable stainless > plate . > On the single keeler, the back of the keel behind the ballast makes > a 70 gallon fuel tank, again with a large inspection plate and > window . On the twin keler I build a fuel tank below the wheelhouse > floor, with a gap between that and the watertank to act as a sump. > It's up to the owner to decide how much of this space he wants to use > for tankage and how much for easily accessible storage. He can weld > the fore and aft plates in, then take a 5 gallon bucket and a hose > and put as many gallons of water as he wants for fuel to determine > where he wants to put the top, then blast a drain hole from the > oputside with a hot 6011, drain the water out, fill the hole and put > the top on. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The Bones has drop-in 1/8" steel tanks, painted on the outside with > coal tar, and on the inside with tank epoxy. Some epoxies (coal > > tar) may leach toxins into the drinking water. Look for one that > is rated for potable water. The lid is secured with SS bolts, > > drilled through the flange, with the heads welded from the inside, > prior to painting. The lid is bolted onto the flange with a > > neoprene gasket, with handles on top of the lids for removal. The > filler, vent and drain pipes are welded to a small access plate, > > that is attached to the lid in a similar manner as the lid to the > tank. This allows minor servicing of the tanks without removing > > the lid. The lids are bolt on rather than weld on to simplify > blasting and painting, which can be next to impossible through an > > access port, especially with baffles in place. The tanks are drop- > in for the same reason. The tanks all run longitudinally, with > > baffles, and minimal volume athwart-ships. Athwart-ships tanks > should be divided, not simply baffled, to minimize fuel and water > > shifting to leeward. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:23 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to > place > > > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel > hull > > > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat > the > > > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4264|4257|2004-06-28 14:07:45|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|There is still the cheap & low tech alternative of no tanks at all. on my last boat I had a collection of plastic jerrycans that I had picked up for free (drugstore supplies). one of them had a hole drilled in the cap for the tube going to the footpump and the galley sink, and when it was empty just hook up the next one. That worked fine, easy to fill, store where you want, move them around, if you get bad water it will not contaminate all your supply, throw away evey season instead of cleaning and good reminder to the crew to be careful with water. If you are ready to keep it simple, that is a valid solution. I have to say though that there was just the galley sink, no shower etc. and this time I guess I will get fixed tanks. Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4265|4257|2004-06-28 19:28:05|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Unpainted fuel tanks will corrode out. I've always given them many coats of epoxy tar and have had no corrosion problems. Were the tanks that you had rust out painted inside? With Kurt's removeanble top, built in tanks are probably easier to service than removeable tanks.It is far easier to inspect all metal surfaces by simply lifting the floorboards and looking directly at all bottom steel surfaces thru a window in the top of the tank. With origami construction there is no need for stringers and frames inside a tank, and they are best avoided there, as the tank top and baffles are much stronger than stringers and frames. Spray foam is not a seal , especially the canned stuff, and will soak up water and fuel like a sponge, and will cause your hull and tanks to corrode thru if any water gets in ,which it inevitably will o. It will also make your tank extremely difficult to remove, and will make the space between them extremely unlikely to be inspected until there is a serious problem. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Integral tanks are fine if you have a way to service them. I've seen plenty of Roberts with rusting frames and stringers inside > their integral tanks, and no good way to service them. I blasted and painted one such tank, hanging upside down in the bilge > through an access hole, and would never do it again. > > We had sulfite bacteria eat through the fuel tanks from contaminated fuel in Fiji, like they were cut with a torch. I was plenty > happy they were drop in. We pulled them out with the boom, welded, blasted, and painted, while we continued to live aboard with a 6 > month old child. > > The Bones has continuous access hatches down the center of the floors, with all wiring, piping, and tank tops exposed to simplify > maintenance and repairs. Drop-in tanks are simplified in origami, because there is limited transverse framing to restrict tank > sizes the way it does in transverse framed boats, and stress risers and puncture points can be avoided by eliminating transverse > tank members welded directly to the hull. > > The CG of the tanks is below CB, so they are ballast. Seal the tanks to the hull with a couple of cans of spray > foam, and paint over with something that stays a little flexible. If water does seep into the void, there is not enough air > circulation to promote corrosion. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 3:56 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > I usually put built in tanks between the twin keels or on the > > centreline above the ballast on a single keeler . These are > > watertanks. Where the edge of the tank top meets the hull is a strong > > point , at least as strong as the centreline. This lets you end the > > transverse stiffners over the twin keels there, with a fore and aft > > gusset along the tank seam to carry the weight on the end of the > > stiffener to the tank edge seam. > > I put a transverse baffle halfway along and a 1 ft by 2 ft > > inspection plate straddling this baffle. This lets you stick your > > head in either side of the baffle and see every sq inch of the inside > > of the tank, and lets you reach every sq inch within arms length. > > Without the structural strength of the built in tank ,the tranverse > > webs accross the twin keels would have to go all the way to the > > centreline, making it very hard to fit any other kind of tank in this > > area. This would force you to use other valuable storage areas for > > tanks. > > Putting a plexi window straddling the baffle lets you see the > > inside of the tank any time as well as the bottom of the tank which > > is the hull. Dropping pre built tanks into a hull makes the area > > between the tank and the hull often imposible to inspect without > > taking your interior apart. As this area is in the bilge, in the > > wettest and most corrosion prone part of the hull, drop in tanks can > > lead to unforseen problems between the hull and tank .Pre built > > removeable tanks are also much heavier and far more labour intensive. > > One client with a single keel 36 footer used stainles angle for the > > tank edge , and made the entire top out of removeable stainless > > plate . > > On the single keeler, the back of the keel behind the ballast makes > > a 70 gallon fuel tank, again with a large inspection plate and > > window . On the twin keler I build a fuel tank below the wheelhouse > > floor, with a gap between that and the watertank to act as a sump. > > It's up to the owner to decide how much of this space he wants to use > > for tankage and how much for easily accessible storage. He can weld > > the fore and aft plates in, then take a 5 gallon bucket and a hose > > and put as many gallons of water as he wants for fuel to determine > > where he wants to put the top, then blast a drain hole from the > > oputside with a hot 6011, drain the water out, fill the hole and put > > the top on. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > The Bones has drop-in 1/8" steel tanks, painted on the outside with > > coal tar, and on the inside with tank epoxy. Some epoxies (coal > > > tar) may leach toxins into the drinking water. Look for one that > > is rated for potable water. The lid is secured with SS bolts, > > > drilled through the flange, with the heads welded from the inside, > > prior to painting. The lid is bolted onto the flange with a > > > neoprene gasket, with handles on top of the lids for removal. The > > filler, vent and drain pipes are welded to a small access plate, > > > that is attached to the lid in a similar manner as the lid to the > > tank. This allows minor servicing of the tanks without removing > > > the lid. The lids are bolt on rather than weld on to simplify > > blasting and painting, which can be next to impossible through an > > > access port, especially with baffles in place. The tanks are drop- > > in for the same reason. The tanks all run longitudinally, with > > > baffles, and minimal volume athwart-ships. Athwart-ships tanks > > should be divided, not simply baffled, to minimize fuel and water > > > shifting to leeward. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:23 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like to > > place > > > > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the steel > > hull > > > > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to treat > > the > > > > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > > > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4266|4257|2004-06-28 19:30:22|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|I used gerry cans for a while on my last boat. It worked well, but takes up a lot more space than built in tanks on some boats. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > There is still the cheap & low tech alternative of no tanks at all. > on my last boat I had a collection of plastic jerrycans that I had > picked up for free (drugstore supplies). one of them had a hole > drilled in the cap for the tube going to the footpump and the galley > sink, and when it was empty just hook up the next one. > > That worked fine, easy to fill, store where you want, move them > around, if you get bad water it will not contaminate all your > supply, throw away evey season instead of cleaning and good reminder > to the crew to be careful with water. If you are ready to keep it > simple, that is a valid solution. > > I have to say though that there was just the galley sink, no shower > etc. and this time I guess I will get fixed tanks. > > Gerd > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 4267|4244|2004-06-28 23:26:44|silascrosby|Re: Dry Exhaust|--- On our 36' BS with aft cabin we ran the well insulated exhaust from the engine in a high loop behind the cockpit, then down to thecentre- line and aft under the aft-cabin double berth.It exits the hull at the waterline on the transom and then goes up to finish with a flap valve ~ 30 cms below the deck edge. A muffler is in line under the berth so it is quite quiet(inside and outsidethe boat). Heat is only a problem if we have been motoring until bedtime on a hot day in tropical waters. The well- made insulating blankets seem to be important. We launched 10 yrs. ago and have 3,000 hrs. on the 48 hp Isuzu. Also, we put in a ball valve to close off the system just inside the transom but we never close it. In significant following seas offshore I have slipped a ziplock bag over the exhaust end to keep sneaky mls of h2o out.No problem if it is forgotten.Also we have not had a problem with the paint at the hull penetration ;I presume because it is usually immersed. Steve| 4268|4268|2004-06-29 00:58:54|sae140|variable-pitch prop ?|Has anyone any views on variable-pitch propellors ? As I see it, it's a trade-off between additional complexity underwater (which admittably doesn't appeal) against not requiring a gearbox and clutch - but thinks ..... if a device could be made which would rotate the blades fully fore-and-aft, there would be minimal drag whilst under way .... Just a 4 a.m. thought. Going back to bed now. Colin| 4269|4268|2004-06-29 04:57:53|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: variable-pitch prop ?|There is no additional complexity underwater with an AutoProp (self pitching in both directions and minimal drag when stationary). This one fits a standard taper on a standard shaft driven by the normal reversing gear --- no pitch controls other than hydrodynamic pressure. There is a penalty in $ terms at time of purchase. There are some around here apparently, but no definitive words on performance. Terry -----Original Message----- From: sae140 [mailto:colinpowell@...] Sent: Tuesday, 29 June 2004 14:29 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] variable-pitch prop ? Has anyone any views on variable-pitch propellors ? As I see it, it's a trade-off between additional complexity underwater (which admittably doesn't appeal) against not requiring a gearbox and clutch - but thinks ..... if a device could be made which would rotate the blades fully fore-and-aft, there would be minimal drag whilst under way .... Just a 4 a.m. thought. Going back to bed now. Colin To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4271|4257|2004-06-29 14:01:50|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|All other issues aside, the reason to put in removable tanks is that you eliminate transverse welds below the waterline. How you proceed beyond that are matters of experience to minimize costs, time, and maintenance, for which each builder will have their own preference. Transverse members welded to the hull are not something to be desired. Not for frames, not for tanks. The problems with transverse welds are well established, and routinely put forward on this site as an advantage of origami. They cannot simply be ignored when installing tanks. With removable tanks, the transom is the only required transverse member, and this is by design above the waterline. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 4:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Unpainted fuel tanks will corrode out. I've always given them many > coats of epoxy tar and have had no corrosion problems. Were the tanks > that you had rust out painted inside? > With Kurt's removeanble top, built in tanks are probably easier to > service than removeable tanks.It is far easier to inspect all metal > surfaces by simply lifting the floorboards and looking directly at > all bottom steel surfaces thru a window in the top of the tank. > With origami construction there is no need for stringers and frames > inside a tank, and they are best avoided there, as the tank top and > baffles are much stronger than stringers and frames. > Spray foam is not a seal , especially the canned stuff, and will > soak up water and fuel like a sponge, and will cause your hull and > tanks to corrode thru if any water gets in ,which it inevitably will > o. It will also make your tank extremely difficult to remove, and > will make the space between them extremely unlikely to be inspected > until there is a serious problem. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Integral tanks are fine if you have a way to service them. I've > seen plenty of Roberts with rusting frames and stringers inside > > their integral tanks, and no good way to service them. I blasted > and painted one such tank, hanging upside down in the bilge > > through an access hole, and would never do it again. > > > > We had sulfite bacteria eat through the fuel tanks from > contaminated fuel in Fiji, like they were cut with a torch. I was > plenty > > happy they were drop in. We pulled them out with the boom, welded, > blasted, and painted, while we continued to live aboard with a 6 > > month old child. > > > > The Bones has continuous access hatches down the center of the > floors, with all wiring, piping, and tank tops exposed to simplify > > maintenance and repairs. Drop-in tanks are simplified in origami, > because there is limited transverse framing to restrict tank > > sizes the way it does in transverse framed boats, and stress risers > and puncture points can be avoided by eliminating transverse > > tank members welded directly to the hull. > > > > The CG of the tanks is below CB, so they are ballast. Seal the > tanks to the hull with a couple of cans of spray > > foam, and paint over with something that stays a little flexible. > If water does seep into the void, there is not enough air > > circulation to promote corrosion. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 3:56 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > I usually put built in tanks between the twin keels or on the > > > centreline above the ballast on a single keeler . These are > > > watertanks. Where the edge of the tank top meets the hull is a > strong > > > point , at least as strong as the centreline. This lets you end > the > > > transverse stiffners over the twin keels there, with a fore and > aft > > > gusset along the tank seam to carry the weight on the end of the > > > stiffener to the tank edge seam. > > > I put a transverse baffle halfway along and a 1 ft by 2 ft > > > inspection plate straddling this baffle. This lets you stick your > > > head in either side of the baffle and see every sq inch of the > inside > > > of the tank, and lets you reach every sq inch within arms length. > > > Without the structural strength of the built in tank ,the > tranverse > > > webs accross the twin keels would have to go all the way to the > > > centreline, making it very hard to fit any other kind of tank in > this > > > area. This would force you to use other valuable storage areas for > > > tanks. > > > Putting a plexi window straddling the baffle lets you see the > > > inside of the tank any time as well as the bottom of the tank > which > > > is the hull. Dropping pre built tanks into a hull makes the area > > > between the tank and the hull often imposible to inspect without > > > taking your interior apart. As this area is in the bilge, in the > > > wettest and most corrosion prone part of the hull, drop in tanks > can > > > lead to unforseen problems between the hull and tank .Pre built > > > removeable tanks are also much heavier and far more labour > intensive. > > > One client with a single keel 36 footer used stainles angle for > the > > > tank edge , and made the entire top out of removeable stainless > > > plate . > > > On the single keeler, the back of the keel behind the ballast > makes > > > a 70 gallon fuel tank, again with a large inspection plate and > > > window . On the twin keler I build a fuel tank below the > wheelhouse > > > floor, with a gap between that and the watertank to act as a sump. > > > It's up to the owner to decide how much of this space he wants to > use > > > for tankage and how much for easily accessible storage. He can > weld > > > the fore and aft plates in, then take a 5 gallon bucket and a hose > > > and put as many gallons of water as he wants for fuel to determine > > > where he wants to put the top, then blast a drain hole from the > > > oputside with a hot 6011, drain the water out, fill the hole and > put > > > the top on. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > The Bones has drop-in 1/8" steel tanks, painted on the outside > with > > > coal tar, and on the inside with tank epoxy. Some epoxies (coal > > > > tar) may leach toxins into the drinking water. Look for one > that > > > is rated for potable water. The lid is secured with SS bolts, > > > > drilled through the flange, with the heads welded from the > inside, > > > prior to painting. The lid is bolted onto the flange with a > > > > neoprene gasket, with handles on top of the lids for removal. > The > > > filler, vent and drain pipes are welded to a small access plate, > > > > that is attached to the lid in a similar manner as the lid to > the > > > tank. This allows minor servicing of the tanks without removing > > > > the lid. The lids are bolt on rather than weld on to simplify > > > blasting and painting, which can be next to impossible through an > > > > access port, especially with baffles in place. The tanks are > drop- > > > in for the same reason. The tanks all run longitudinally, with > > > > baffles, and minimal volume athwart-ships. Athwart-ships tanks > > > should be divided, not simply baffled, to minimize fuel and water > > > > shifting to leeward. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 1:23 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I did a search of the site and came up tankless. I would like > to > > > place > > > > > the water and fuel tanks under the floor boards and use the > steel > > > hull > > > > > as the bottom of the tanks. What would be the best way to > treat > > > the > > > > > tank interior, epoxy, flame spray or none of the above? > > > > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4272|4257|2004-06-29 16:43:03|edward_stoneuk|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Greg, If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop the keel wobbling? Regards, Ted| 4274|4257|2004-06-30 11:57:11|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|The transverse frames are welded to the longitudinals, not to the skin. Only the longitudinals are welded to the skin. The transverse members are offset from the hull between the longitudinals, so the hull can deflect between the longitudinals in a collision, and the object can pass down the hull without rupturing the skin. With a transverse member welded to the skin, the skin cannot deflect at that point, and the skin is likely to rupture. Especially tank ends, which are welded 100%. At least with frames tacked to the hull there is the possibility of breaking the tacks before the hull ruptures. This problem is well recognized and documented in metal boat construction, as are the solutions. Welding transverse members directly to the hull is a mistake. It is a mistake in conventional construction. It is a mistake in origami construction. It is quite simply poor metal boat construction, and it is not required. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Greg, > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > the keel wobbling? > Regards, > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4275|4275|2004-06-30 14:05:09|Bruce C. Dillahunty|Hull strength/thickness|OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the proper hull thickness to achieve the desired strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given hull was as strong as the original design. I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm not seeing it. Thanks for a pointer. Bruce| 4276|4257|2004-06-30 16:23:15|audeojude|Fuel and Water tanks|I think I can speak for a lot of us that follow this list that the subject of drop in or integral fuel tanks is of interest. From what has been said here it seems that either of these methods works well if the tanks are sealed properly inside and out. Integral seems to be more material and space efficient. However the subject of transverse framing welded to the hull causing hard points has touted a lot by both the builder's on the list. my question i guess is addressed at brent then since he is in favor of integral tanks.... Is there a reason that integral tanks are ok where transverse framing is not? is it a size thing? since the transverse welds would be fairly short for most tanks? you have been adamant against transverse framing on the list prior to this so I am curious. My question is not meant to be contintious, but I am very curious at the reasoning behind this. My personal preferance from a asthetic and material point of view would be for integral tanks. However I would put saftey first over those if there was reason to do so. scott carle ps.. one more why! in the list of lifes why's :)| 4279|4257|2004-06-30 20:42:37|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Greg You wrote: "The transverse members are offset from the hull between the longitudinals, so the hull can deflect between the longitudinals in a collision, and the object can pass down the hull without rupturing the skin." If the tank is welded in and functions properly there are two skins to rupture before water can enter into your boat. However, if the tanks are drop in there is one skin to rupture and if ruptured it is hidden under the drop in tank. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The transverse frames are welded to the longitudinals, not to the skin. Only the longitudinals are welded to the skin. The > transverse members are offset from the hull between the longitudinals, so the hull can deflect between the longitudinals in a > collision, and the object can pass down the hull without rupturing the skin. > > With a transverse member welded to the skin, the skin cannot deflect at that point, and the skin is likely to rupture. Especially > tank ends, which are welded 100%. At least with frames tacked to the hull there is the possibility of breaking the tacks before the > hull ruptures. > > This problem is well recognized and documented in metal boat construction, as are the solutions. Welding transverse members > directly to the hull is a mistake. It is a mistake in conventional construction. It is a mistake in origami construction. It is > quite simply poor metal boat construction, and it is not required. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > Greg, > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > > the keel wobbling? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4280|4257|2004-06-30 20:54:44|audeojude|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Actually unless you have tanks the entire length of the hull this wouldn't work like that. lets say there is a tank over the keels. the wall of the tank at the forward end where it is welded to the hull would create a hard point. If you were moving in a forward direction and hit something it would most likly puncture the hull just before and at that forward end of the tank. Up till the point at which the tank was built in the hull would slightly deflect or bend. At that transverse weld and tank wall would be very stiff and no longer deflect. Unless the tank was small enough in dimension that even with the tank there the hull deflected tank and all..... not sure that would work that way with the tank there as far as deflecting but its a thought. lol something to ignorantly debate about :) so lets get some empirical evidence :) we need volunteers with boats with integral tanks and someone with one with drop in tanks. :) now lets find a sharp underwater obstruction and h hit it a strong glancing blow running down the hull and see what happens with no transverse welds and tanks as opposed to one with :) two boats approxx same displacement and same hull thickness, moving the same speed :) any volunteers? Scott Carle ps. don't try this at home kids :) or is that don't try this with your home :) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > Greg > You wrote: > "The transverse members are offset from the hull between the > longitudinals, so the > hull can deflect between the longitudinals in a > collision, and the object can pass down the hull without rupturing the > skin." > > If the tank is welded in and functions properly there are two skins to > rupture before water can enter into your boat. However, if the tanks > are drop in there is one skin to rupture and if ruptured it is hidden > under the drop in tank. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The transverse frames are welded to the longitudinals, not to the > skin. Only the longitudinals are welded to the skin. The > > transverse members are offset from the hull between the > longitudinals, so the hull can deflect between the longitudinals in a > > collision, and the object can pass down the hull without rupturing > the skin. > > > > With a transverse member welded to the skin, the skin cannot deflect > at that point, and the skin is likely to rupture. Especially > > tank ends, which are welded 100%. At least with frames tacked to > the hull there is the possibility of breaking the tacks before the > > hull ruptures. > > > > This problem is well recognized and documented in metal boat > construction, as are the solutions. Welding transverse members > > directly to the hull is a mistake. It is a mistake in conventional > construction. It is a mistake in origami construction. It is > > quite simply poor metal boat construction, and it is not required. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:42 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > Greg, > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > > > the keel wobbling? > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4281|4281|2004-06-30 21:08:59|audeojude|Database of Origami Boats|I have been playing with the database feature on the yahoo groups forum and have created one to track Origami boats owned by members or if you know about a boat someone else has you can add it there also. It would allow us to have a consistent place to find boats to look at or contact their owners with questions etc.... Go look under database on the origamiboats forum. I have also added a contact database for people that would like to list their contact information for others to get hold of them. Scott Carle| 4282|4282|2004-06-30 21:27:59|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New poll for origamiboats |Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the origamiboats group: In your opinion which is better integral tanks or drop in tanks. If you think both are equal choices then chose both. o Integral Tanks o Drop In Tanks o No Tanks o Portable Water Containers o Tow behind water tanker :) To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/surveys?id=1290012 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks!| 4283|4257|2004-06-30 21:44:31|kendall|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > Actually unless you have tanks the entire length of the hull this > wouldn't work like that. lets say there is a tank over the keels. the > wall of the tank at the forward end where it is welded to the hull > would create a hard point. If you were moving in a forward direction > and hit something it would most likly puncture the hull just before > and at that forward end of the tank. Up till the point at which the > tank was built in the hull would slightly deflect or bend. At that > transverse weld and tank wall would be very stiff and no longer > deflect. Unless the tank was small enough in dimension that even with > the tank there the hull deflected tank and all..... not sure that > would work that way with the tank there as far as deflecting but its a > thought. > > lol something to ignorantly debate about :) so lets get some empirical > evidence :) we need volunteers with boats with integral tanks and > someone with one with drop in tanks. :) now lets find a sharp > underwater obstruction and h hit it a strong glancing blow running > down the hull and see what happens with no transverse welds and tanks > as opposed to one with :) two boats approxx same displacement and same > hull thickness, moving the same speed :) > > any volunteers? > > > Scott Carle > > > ps. don't try this at home kids :) or is that don't try this with your > home :) > been following this, and the closest anology I can come up with is like shooting a handkerchief with a 22, if the handkerchief is hung by the top corners, it will deflect, and you can't shoot a hole through it, tie the bottom corners too, and you'll get a hole every time, same works with arrows and hanky's, and punching paper bags, as long as the material is able to deflect it will, when you prevent deflection, it will rupture under the same forces. this would also extend to tanks >securly< mounted in close proximity to the hull. I have always thought that the optimum location for tanks was in the bilge area above the ballast, as generally it (the bilge area) is of heavier gauge material reducing the damage potential, and it is possible to isolate the bilge from the rest of the boat with a water tight sole, with plugable drains in case of damage, and the weight of the tanks will produce less effect on the boat's trim whether empty or full, I had one boat where the tanks were on opposite sides, (fuel aft stbd, water port front) and depending on whether they were full or empty, you ran with a list to the full one, or moved things around to make up for it. Ken.| 4284|22|2004-07-01 00:10:10|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /boattankintegral.bmp Uploaded by : skaar0 Description : just an idea You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/boattankintegral.bmp To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, skaar0 | 4285|4285|2004-07-01 01:13:18|rockrothwell|Hot Water Tanks with Zincs?|Hi All, Just scored a 6 gallon force 10 hot water tank through a friend awho got it at a scrap dealer. Exellent buy at $20. got a used tank with all the fittings, 1500w heating element, pressure release valve & thermostat/switching for 170 deg F. and a 2nd tank that is a virgin. maybe 20 minutes to assemble. the lovely thing about this hot water tank, aside from being new & cheap is that it has a separate heating coil so you can heat it off of a diesel space heater or from engine heat Anyway, they mounted brass fittings (gate valves, pressure relief valve) onto an aluminum tank. Duh! You would think that they would have figured this the most basic of equasions but aparently not! I always thought force 10 was a quality manufacturer. anyway, add H2O and you get major corrosion of the aluminum and that is exactly what happened right at the threaded pipe nipples of the tank. I have been thinking of at least physically separating the aluminum pipe nipples from the brass fittings by using pex (or whatever Bartle & Gibson (the local wholesale plumbing outfit) recommend for plastic fittings. this i figure will 'spread the load' of corrosion so the whole interior of the tank will corrode at the same rate as opposed to only the pipe nipples corroding heavily. comments please. Have also been thinking (but am really not sure) of putting a zinc in the system to hopefully eliminate corrosion. yes I know that for drinking water you definitely do NOT want to put a zinc anywere in the system as you dont want to injest zinc/lead. But is it dangerous to have a zinc in the hot water system and use it for washing dishes and showering?? can you absorb the zinc through the skin or your eyes or something like that? all comments much appreciated! Cheers, Shane| 4286|4286|2004-07-01 01:41:35|rockrothwell|Brent's bilge pumps|I've built one of Brent's bilge pumps out of SS and have just to do the final assembly. Very cool and strong as the provervial brick outhouse Pretty it is not but that's not the point. Sure, I can clean it up a bit on the outside & maybe polish it a bit but who cares what it looks like as long as it works when needed. What concerns me is the discoloration of the SS on the inside of the pump from the heat of the welding. will this not corrode when exposed to salt water/dung etc from the heads? there is no way to polish the inside of the 1.5" pipe used to make the unit and these 1.5" pipes are welded from the outside only so there is the equivalent of a small crevise all around the end of the pipe, at the plate, on the inside of the pump. Should I use the "pickling solution" I've heard of (aparently a very nasty highly carcinogenic chemical that 'pickles' the SS, espcially the welds) that is (aparently) used in the place of polishing? or is a zinc the annswer? Or both? All comments appreciated! Thanks, Shane| 4287|4286|2004-07-01 08:59:28|Phil S.|Re: Brent's bilge pumps|Don't worry about the discoloration, you didn't change the content of the metal, ie. it didn't suddenly become carbon steel. We weld up stainless tanks all the time and do not worry about the discoloration except as an esthetic issue. Regards Phil| 4288|4257|2004-07-01 11:03:18|audeojude|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Your right, actually after reflecting on this it hit me that there are already these hard spots in the hull even with origami. you would have a transverse on at the keels i think ( just guessing at this) and maybe at the rear skeg. Then you have a bunch of longitudnal ones. Every place you have a chine is one. within a few inches of it the steel is going to be very rigid. actually this is what makes origami work for boat building. Only the centers of the plates are going to have much give to them. So if you take advantage of the already existing hard points like this and integrate your tanks at these places. Over or between the keels, possibly in the keels a bit, along the center joint of the hull it probably wouldn't creat much more of a non deflecting place than was already there. If you kept the tanks longer and narrower most of your welds would be longitudenal in direction. scott carle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Actually unless you have tanks the entire length of the hull this > > wouldn't work like that. lets say there is a tank over the keels. the > > wall of the tank at the forward end where it is welded to the hull > > would create a hard point. If you were moving in a forward direction > > and hit something it would most likly puncture the hull just before > > and at that forward end of the tank. Up till the point at which the > > tank was built in the hull would slightly deflect or bend. At that > > transverse weld and tank wall would be very stiff and no longer > > deflect. Unless the tank was small enough in dimension that even with > > the tank there the hull deflected tank and all..... not sure that > > would work that way with the tank there as far as deflecting but its a > > thought. > > > > lol something to ignorantly debate about :) so lets get some empirical > > evidence :) we need volunteers with boats with integral tanks and > > someone with one with drop in tanks. :) now lets find a sharp > > underwater obstruction and h hit it a strong glancing blow running > > down the hull and see what happens with no transverse welds and tanks > > as opposed to one with :) two boats approxx same displacement and same > > hull thickness, moving the same speed :) > > > > any volunteers? > > > > > > Scott Carle > > > > > > ps. don't try this at home kids :) or is that don't try this with your > > home :) > > > been following this, and the closest anology I can come up with is > like shooting a handkerchief with a 22, if the handkerchief is hung by > the top corners, it will deflect, and you can't shoot a hole through > it, tie the bottom corners too, and you'll get a hole every time, > same works with arrows and hanky's, and punching paper bags, as long > as the material is able to deflect it will, when you prevent > deflection, it will rupture under the same forces. this would also > extend to tanks >securly< mounted in close proximity to the hull. > > I have always thought that the optimum location for tanks was in > the bilge area above the ballast, as generally it (the bilge area) is > of heavier gauge material reducing the damage potential, and it is > possible to isolate the bilge from the rest of the boat with a water > tight sole, with plugable drains in case of damage, and the weight of > the tanks will produce less effect on the boat's trim whether empty or > full, I had one boat where the tanks were on opposite sides, (fuel aft > stbd, water port front) and depending on whether they were full or > empty, you ran with a list to the full one, or moved things around to > make up for it. > > Ken. | 4289|4285|2004-07-01 11:09:17|audeojude|Re: Hot Water Tanks with Zincs?|You absolutely can absorb lead thru your skin. Don't use a zinc :) have you thought about just replacing all the fittings with ones that won't cause the corrosion or use teflon tape and isolate them from metal to metal contact. There are several ways to get around this type of corrosion or at least slow it down drastically. Next thing would to be not to use the tank especially if when installed it is going to be hard to get to for repairs. scott carle --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rockrothwell" wrote: > Hi All, > > Just scored a 6 gallon force 10 hot water tank through a friend awho > got it at a scrap dealer. Exellent buy at $20. got a used tank with > all the fittings, 1500w heating element, pressure release valve & > thermostat/switching for 170 deg F. and a 2nd tank that is a virgin. > maybe 20 minutes to assemble. the lovely thing about this hot water > tank, aside from being new & cheap is that it has a separate heating > coil so you can heat it off of a diesel space heater or from engine > heat > > Anyway, they mounted brass fittings (gate valves, pressure relief > valve) onto an aluminum tank. Duh! You would think that they would > have figured this the most basic of equasions but aparently not! I > always thought force 10 was a quality manufacturer. anyway, add H2O > and you get major corrosion of the aluminum and that is exactly what > happened right at the threaded pipe nipples of the tank. > > I have been thinking of at least physically separating the aluminum > pipe nipples from the brass fittings by using pex (or whatever Bartle > & Gibson (the local wholesale plumbing outfit) recommend for plastic > fittings. this i figure will 'spread the load' of corrosion so the > whole interior of the tank will corrode at the same rate as opposed > to only the pipe nipples corroding heavily. comments please. > > Have also been thinking (but am really not sure) of putting a zinc in > the system to hopefully eliminate corrosion. yes I know that for > drinking water you definitely do NOT want to put a zinc anywere in > the system as you dont want to injest zinc/lead. But is it dangerous > to have a zinc in the hot water system and use it for washing dishes > and showering?? can you absorb the zinc through the skin or your eyes > or something like that? > > all comments much appreciated! > > > Cheers, > Shane | 4290|4257|2004-07-01 17:12:19|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Another alternative may be food grade plastic tanks as found in RV's. As with steel tanks, they can be bolted to tabs on the frames and if the hull is already painted and foamed under, neither clearance or maintenance is not an issue. Empty they are nearly weightless, allowing quick removal/replacement should it be necessary to inspect under. I have one aboard that I found washed up on the beach in Mexico 20 years ago that has proven indestructible. Maybe more so than the craft it was installed in originally? I can't speak for the cost, but I understand they can be readily fabricated from flat plastic panels to any size with a saw and plastic welder/ industrial hot glue gun. I'm frankly surprised there would be any debate over this issue. The problem with transverse members welded to the hull is well established. We don't design them, we don't build them. To do otherwise makes a joke of origami. The pot calling the kettle black, rationalizing the merits of transverse members in origami, while poo-pooing them in conventional boats. If I was a conventional builder, considering the process, it would just have lost all credibility with me. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "kendall" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Actually unless you have tanks the entire length of the hull this > > wouldn't work like that. lets say there is a tank over the keels. the > > wall of the tank at the forward end where it is welded to the hull > > would create a hard point. If you were moving in a forward direction > > and hit something it would most likly puncture the hull just before > > and at that forward end of the tank. Up till the point at which the > > tank was built in the hull would slightly deflect or bend. At that > > transverse weld and tank wall would be very stiff and no longer > > deflect. Unless the tank was small enough in dimension that even with > > the tank there the hull deflected tank and all..... not sure that > > would work that way with the tank there as far as deflecting but its a > > thought. > > > > lol something to ignorantly debate about :) so lets get some empirical > > evidence :) we need volunteers with boats with integral tanks and > > someone with one with drop in tanks. :) now lets find a sharp > > underwater obstruction and h hit it a strong glancing blow running > > down the hull and see what happens with no transverse welds and tanks > > as opposed to one with :) two boats approxx same displacement and same > > hull thickness, moving the same speed :) > > > > any volunteers? > > > > > > Scott Carle > > > > > > ps. don't try this at home kids :) or is that don't try this with your > > home :) > > > been following this, and the closest anology I can come up with is > like shooting a handkerchief with a 22, if the handkerchief is hung by > the top corners, it will deflect, and you can't shoot a hole through > it, tie the bottom corners too, and you'll get a hole every time, > same works with arrows and hanky's, and punching paper bags, as long > as the material is able to deflect it will, when you prevent > deflection, it will rupture under the same forces. this would also > extend to tanks >securly< mounted in close proximity to the hull. > > I have always thought that the optimum location for tanks was in > the bilge area above the ballast, as generally it (the bilge area) is > of heavier gauge material reducing the damage potential, and it is > possible to isolate the bilge from the rest of the boat with a water > tight sole, with plugable drains in case of damage, and the weight of > the tanks will produce less effect on the boat's trim whether empty or > full, I had one boat where the tanks were on opposite sides, (fuel aft > stbd, water port front) and depending on whether they were full or > empty, you ran with a list to the full one, or moved things around to > make up for it. > > Ken. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4291|4257|2004-07-01 21:16:47|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Hi Greg, what does the color of the tanks mean if anything?. MBQ has an article about using food grade platic barrels. I would like to know if they can be used for black water tanks? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4292|4292|2004-07-02 00:11:19|SHANE ROTHWELL|Hot Water Tanks|Thank you for confirming NOT to use a zinc in the system! the installation had thread seal tape as well as a white goop (i think it was thread seal goop) and like i mentioned before, the threaded pipe nipples, aluminum same as the tank itself) were badly corroded but only inthe immediate area of the pipe nipple. the rest of the tank looks ok. thus i am thinking of physically spearating the brass from the alloy as much as possible, with pex i assume but have to go to the local plumbing wholesaler. thanks again for the word to the wise, we have more than enough contaminates, heavy metals & sources of filth (food addatives!) in our food, air, water etc to kill us without hastening the process by a dumb mistake Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4293|4257|2004-07-02 01:23:05|Ben Tucker|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Hi could some of the transverse bulkhead issues of integral tanks be reduced with a bit of engineering?, It seems the problem is the sudden transition from flexible plate to a hard welded frame. So how about putting a 3 or 4mm doubler plate under the frame extending about 3 or 4 inches forward of the frame and an inch or so aft of it?. The frame is welded to the doubler not the hull, and the doubler has a light continous fillet weld on both sides to make it water tight. a couple of short intermediate strigers with tapered ends also make the transition more gradual, and prevent local distortion when welding. All of this would only be needed on the front of the first transverse frame, but this would coincide nicely with the front of the keel and the mast so would give good reinforcing for this high load area The other trick would be to make the forward frame/floor out of plate much thinner than the hull (ie 3mm for a 5mm hull) so that it is more likely that the frame will buckle, rather than the hull rupture. also jerry cans are great!, I like to have about a good dingy load (100 litres or so) of portable containers around the 20 ltr mark, it means i can fill my tanks from any source, and I have a great backup supply. also 2x 20 litre diesel/petrol containers make a good backup and reserve, and are very usefull for filling up in out of the way places. jerry cans are also cheap, and maintenance free. Cheers Ben| 4294|4292|2004-07-02 04:45:04|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hot Water Tanks|Hot dipped galvanised pipe and tanks ie items that have been immersed in a bath of molten zinc, are often used in water supply systems. Zinc is very different from lead. I think one can get zinc tablets from health food shop, although I don't know why. You are right lead is poisonous although the Romans used it for their water pipes. The word plumber comes from the latin for lead; plumbum. There is high temperature plastic pipe made for domestic hot water and it would be worthwhile checking the plumbing supplies shops to see what is available and at what temperature and pressure it can operate. It would overcome the differential metal problem and you would avoid the doubt as to wether the pipe thread had cut through the tape or sealant being used to isolate the aluminum from the brass. As you say I don't know what the manufacturers were thinking of using brass on aluminum. Some people have stopped using aluminum saucepans because of the dangers of ingesting the metal, although I guess we are not talking about drinking the water from the hot water system. From memory, the scare about aluminium saucepans was that their use lead to Alzheimers although one wonders if that story was put about by stainless steel saucepan manufacturers. Regards, Ted| 4295|4292|2004-07-02 05:55:03|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Hot Water Tanks|After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering flame spraying my tongue. Check out this site: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.html#what However, be sure to read the warning about high intake! They report that a man ingesting 450 mg vomited within a half hour of ingesting. What kind of a dumb ass would eat that amount of zinc? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Hot dipped galvanised pipe and tanks ie items that have been > immersed in a bath of molten zinc, are often used in water supply > systems. Zinc is very different from lead. I think one can get zinc > tablets from health food shop, although I don't know why. You are > right lead is poisonous although the Romans used it for their water > pipes. The word plumber comes from the latin for lead; plumbum. > > There is high temperature plastic pipe made for domestic hot water > and it would be worthwhile checking the plumbing supplies shops to > see what is available and at what temperature and pressure it can > operate. It would overcome the differential metal problem and you > would avoid the doubt as to wether the pipe thread had cut through > the tape or sealant being used to isolate the aluminum from the > brass. As you say I don't know what the manufacturers were thinking > of using brass on aluminum. Some people have stopped using aluminum > saucepans because of the dangers of ingesting the metal, although I > guess we are not talking about drinking the water from the hot water > system. From memory, the scare about aluminium saucepans was that > their use lead to Alzheimers although one wonders if that story was > put about by stainless steel saucepan manufacturers. > > Regards, > Ted | 4296|4257|2004-07-02 16:14:12|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|I would advise researching this with suppliers. I generally regard translucent white containers as food grade, and everything else as suspect. I have seen the translucent white containers advertised for potable and gray water. There might be some issues with these containers with black water, that would be better served by using a non food grade plastic. It could be that for black water you might want a plastic designed to be resistant to odors. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Hi Greg, what does the color of the tanks mean if anything?. MBQ has an > article about using food grade platic barrels. I would like to know if they can be > used for black water tanks? John > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4297|4257|2004-07-02 17:10:25|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|I have a boat with a 20 gallon black plastic tank from a VW. The tank is about 1/4" thick and has a big screw on top. Want to clean your black water tank just un screw the lid. As for being odor proof .......... I can't smell any diesel fuel. The tanks are real cheap at the junk yard. Here trucks use plastic saddle tanks and some look to be in the 100 gallon range. They are rectangular and I have seen round ones but don't know if they have that handy lid on top? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > I would advise researching this with suppliers. I generally regard translucent white containers as food grade, and everything else > as suspect. I have seen the translucent white containers advertised for potable and gray water. There might be some issues with > these containers with black water, that would be better served by using a non food grade plastic. It could be that for black water > you might want a plastic designed to be resistant to odors. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > Hi Greg, what does the color of the tanks mean if anything?. MBQ has an > > article about using food grade platic barrels. I would like to know if they can be > > used for black water tanks? John > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4298|4257|2004-07-02 18:46:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Sounds like a good idea to me. We use a lot of plastic containers on the Bones, mostly scavenged. They are handy for storing just about everything, not just liquids, because they keep the water out just as well as in. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > I have a boat with a 20 gallon black plastic tank from a VW. The tank > is about 1/4" thick and has a big screw on top. Want to clean your > black water tank just un screw the lid. As for being odor proof > .......... I can't smell any diesel fuel. The tanks are real cheap at > the junk yard. Here trucks use plastic saddle tanks and some look to > be in the 100 gallon range. They are rectangular and I have seen round > ones but don't know if they have that handy lid on top? > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I would advise researching this with suppliers. I generally regard > translucent white containers as food grade, and everything else > > as suspect. I have seen the translucent white containers advertised > for potable and gray water. There might be some issues with > > these containers with black water, that would be better served by > using a non food grade plastic. It could be that for black water > > you might want a plastic designed to be resistant to odors. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > Hi Greg, what does the color of the tanks mean if anything?. MBQ > has an > > > article about using food grade platic barrels. I would like to > know if they can be > > > used for black water tanks? John > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4299|4292|2004-07-02 19:00:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hot Water Tanks|We met a really nice, round bilge, navy blue steel ketch off southern Mexico years ago. The captain was based in Costa Rica, and had the nickname "Dirk the Jerk". He was a full time loud mouth drunk, that went around telling everyone how he was making out big time running drugs from Columbia. What brings this to mind was his admonition that he was taking "Zinc for the Dink". I heard later the Columbians were looking for him, as he and the boat had disappeared with $100,000 of their money. I suspected the crew he had picked up on the way south from LA. Rob was his name as I recall. I was always curious to hear the end of this story. Does anyone know whatever happened to Dirk? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering > flame spraying my tongue. | 4300|4292|2004-07-02 19:58:29|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Hot Water Tanks|Winter time here so not much to do. Got down in the low 70's today. Haven't been without a T-shirt and jeans in a coons age. Maybe another month we will be back to shorts and sandals. Anyhow ....... I was thinking about hot water tanks -- water tanks -- engine cooling --- exhaust cooling and thought it might be good to combine all of them. I only have a 33 HP motor and was wondering how it would work to throw a radiator of sorts in the fresh water tank and also run the exhaust pipe thru the tank. If you are running low on water you could always turn on the transfer pump to save the fresh water and then flood the tank again with sea water. That would only be the emergency plan! I don't drink water from my tanks and normally use the water for showers and washing stuff. Sooo ...... what would be the down side? As for Dirk ....... haven't seen the lad on this side of South America. Will steer clear of all blue round bilge boats! Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > We met a really nice, round bilge, navy blue steel ketch off southern Mexico years ago. The captain was based in Costa Rica, and > had the nickname "Dirk the Jerk". He was a full time loud mouth drunk, that went around telling everyone how he was making out big > time running drugs from Columbia. What brings this to mind was his admonition that he was taking "Zinc for the Dink". I heard > later the Columbians were looking for him, as he and the boat had disappeared with $100,000 of their money. I suspected the crew he > had picked up on the way south from LA. Rob was his name as I recall. I was always curious to hear the end of this story. Does > anyone know whatever happened to Dirk? > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:54 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > > > > After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering > > flame spraying my tongue. | 4301|4257|2004-07-02 20:09:48|Graeme|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Hi all The white or clear containers do not like direct sun light the u.v gets them , the black chemical containers last well in direct sunlight. You have to be careful what they where used for (nasty chemicals) I have used the ones that bulk soap has been sold out of like dish washing liquid , as they wash out easy . Dry cleaners use a lot of just bulk soap as well as they are a good source of easy cleaned containers . LEAVE THE NASTY CHEMICAL ONES BEHIND. Graeme -----Original Message----- From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 4:14 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks I would advise researching this with suppliers. I generally regard translucent white containers as food grade, and everything else as suspect. I have seen the translucent white containers advertised for potable and gray water. There might be some issues with these containers with black water, that would be better served by using a non food grade plastic. It could be that for black water you might want a plastic designed to be resistant to odors. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Hi Greg, what does the color of the tanks mean if anything?. MBQ has an > article about using food grade platic barrels. I would like to know if they can be > used for black water tanks? John > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 4302|4292|2004-07-02 20:10:05|Joe Earsley|Re: Hot Water Tanks|Check this link... http://www.thespamletters.com/letter.php?spamID=160&sortBy=a&start=0 ________________________________ From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:59 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks We met a really nice, round bilge, navy blue steel ketch off southern Mexico years ago. The captain was based in Costa Rica, and had the nickname "Dirk the Jerk". He was a full time loud mouth drunk, that went around telling everyone how he was making out big time running drugs from Columbia. What brings this to mind was his admonition that he was taking "Zinc for the Dink". I heard later the Columbians were looking for him, as he and the boat had disappeared with $100,000 of their money. I suspected the crew he had picked up on the way south from LA. Rob was his name as I recall. I was always curious to hear the end of this story. Does anyone know whatever happened to Dirk? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:54 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering > flame spraying my tongue. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________________________________ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4303|4292|2004-07-03 01:37:46|SHANE ROTHWELL|Hot Water Tanks|Thanks for the feedback folks! Checked with Bartle & Gibson the local plumbing wholesaller who told me a> Pex is the right material to use for hi temp water. Ok for both drinking h2o, hi temp & pressure b> however, no threaded fittings so when going from "standard" 'national' thread fittings in either 1/2" or 5/8" they use a brass threaded fitting which can be connected to the pex tubing with either a comperssion fitting or the propriatary crimp fittings So i figure i'm stuffed re finding a plastic thread on fitting that will take the heat, pressure & temperature. However... there may be another way. One fellow mentioned that the threads probably cut through the teflon tape & after seeing several of these aluminum water heaters crap out in exactly the same way I figure he's right. So.... perhaps using heaps & heaps of teflon thread seal tape, way overdoing it to minimize the chance of cutting through it, then to be sure that you have not cut through the teflon tape, test it for continuity with an ohm/volt meter between the aluminim pipe nipple on the tank and the brass thread on fitting. if you have continuity, pull it apart & do it again with even more teflon tape. if no continuity you should be right & the corrosion will be spread evenly over the whole system. do this for all connections to the tank & provided there is no continuity between tank/pipenipples then it should (theoretically) work. Cheers, Rock ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4304|4304|2004-07-03 01:50:52|SHANE ROTHWELL|Who's building a Swain Now?|Who's building a Swain in greater Vancouver (or on the Island)? Me & my mig are getting bored & want to make some sparks fly.......... Cheers, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4305|4292|2004-07-03 04:34:11|edward_stoneuk|Re: Hot Water Tanks|Rock, Could you blank off the existing tank fittings and then weld on a smaller bore aluminum pipe that you can push the plastic pipe over and clip on? Regards, Ted| 4306|4292|2004-07-03 10:49:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hot Water Tanks|If you don't have success with plastic, I'd use a galvanized fitting. We use them pretty regularly on the Bones, as they are all you can get in many areas. Maybe there are leeching issues, but I can't see it being much of a problem for a few fittings. Galvanized pipe is used in lots of places to carry water, and on the absolute scale there is little difference between hot and cold water in the tropics. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 10:37 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Hot Water Tanks > Thanks for the feedback folks! > > Checked with Bartle & Gibson the local plumbing > wholesaller who told me > a> Pex is the right material to use for hi temp water. > Ok for both drinking h2o, hi temp & pressure > b> however, no threaded fittings so when going from > "standard" 'national' thread fittings in either 1/2" > or 5/8" they use a brass threaded fitting which can be > connected to the pex tubing with either a comperssion > fitting or the propriatary crimp fittings > > So i figure i'm stuffed re finding a plastic thread on > fitting that will take the heat, pressure & > temperature. > > However... there may be another way. One fellow > mentioned that the threads probably cut through the > teflon tape & after seeing several of these aluminum > water heaters crap out in exactly the same way I > figure he's right. So.... perhaps using heaps & heaps > of teflon thread seal tape, way overdoing it to > minimize the chance of cutting through it, then to be > sure that you have not cut through the teflon tape, > test it for continuity with an ohm/volt meter between > the aluminim pipe nipple on the tank and the brass > thread on fitting. if you have continuity, pull it > apart & do it again with even more teflon tape. if no > continuity you should be right & the corrosion will > be spread evenly over the whole system. do this for > all connections to the tank & provided there is no > continuity between tank/pipenipples then it should > (theoretically) work. > > Cheers, > Rock > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4307|4275|2004-07-03 10:49:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to provide adequate strength. The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht design references. Typically you take the vessel displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness and framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more framing required. The thicker the hull, the less framing. The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, and its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be false. An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness of the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was built over strong for a specific purpose. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > hull was as strong as the original design. > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > not seeing it. > > Thanks for a pointer. > > Bruce > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4308|4292|2004-07-03 10:50:39|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hot Water Tanks|We have seen lots of boats with hot water heaters run from the engine cooling. A hose runs from the engine to the hot water heater and back. I'm told there is a coil inside as a heat exchanger. They usually have a backup electric heater in the tank as well for use when on shore power. I have not seen them run the exhaust through the tank, as the cooling water appears adequate. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > Winter time here so not much to do. Got down in the low 70's today. > Haven't been without a T-shirt and jeans in a coons age. Maybe another > month we will be back to shorts and sandals. > Anyhow ....... I was thinking about hot water tanks -- water tanks -- > engine cooling --- exhaust cooling and thought it might be good to > combine all of them. I only have a 33 HP motor and was wondering how > it would work to throw a radiator of sorts in the fresh water tank and > also run the exhaust pipe thru the tank. If you are running low on > water you could always turn on the transfer pump to save the fresh > water and then flood the tank again with sea water. That would only be > the emergency plan! I don't drink water from my tanks and normally use > the water for showers and washing stuff. Sooo ...... what would be the > down side? > As for Dirk ....... haven't seen the lad on this side of South > America. Will steer clear of all blue round bilge boats! > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > We met a really nice, round bilge, navy blue steel ketch off > southern Mexico years ago. The captain was based in Costa Rica, and > > had the nickname "Dirk the Jerk". He was a full time loud mouth > drunk, that went around telling everyone how he was making out big > > time running drugs from Columbia. What brings this to mind was his > admonition that he was taking "Zinc for the Dink". I heard > > later the Columbians were looking for him, as he and the boat had > disappeared with $100,000 of their money. I suspected the crew he > > had picked up on the way south from LA. Rob was his name as I > recall. I was always curious to hear the end of this story. Does > > anyone know whatever happened to Dirk? > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:54 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > > > > > > > After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering > > > flame spraying my tongue. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4309|4275|2004-07-03 11:06:40|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Greg, Intriguing stuff. Where can scantling rules from ABS be found ? Is ABS = American Bureau of Shipping ? What "simplified version of rules" do you recommend ? I assume the application of these rules is not valid for fiberglass boats else fatigue lifetimes could presumably be reasonably estimated and I've never seen any such allusion. Hopefully that's wrong. Again appreciatively, Courtney ge@... wrote: > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to provide adequate strength. > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht design references. Typically you take the vessel > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness and > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more framing required. The thicker the hull, the less framing. > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, and > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be false. > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness of > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was built > over strong for a specific purpose. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > >>OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) >> >>Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I >>understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be >>built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the >>proper hull thickness to achieve the desired >>strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are >>strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given >>hull was as strong as the original design. >> >>I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm >>not seeing it. >> >>Thanks for a pointer. >> >>Bruce >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4310|4275|2004-07-03 11:11:41|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Greg One minor point, on your last paragraph. While it is true that "An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the original", depending on the original materials involved, the orgami boat will be substanially heavier and have a higher vertical center of gravity than the original which can effect sailing ability, stability, carrying capacity, ballasting or some combination of the preceeding items. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to provide adequate strength. > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht design references. Typically you take the vessel > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness and > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more framing required. The thicker the hull, the less framing. > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, and > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be false. > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness of > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was built > over strong for a specific purpose. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > not seeing it. > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4311|4275|2004-07-03 11:59:39|Gerd|Re: Hull strength/thickness|That is something I always have a little problem with: What has origami to do with scantling (or frames for that matter)? What exactly would then be the definition of origami? The way I understand it is that 1) origami would be a hull that is built from two flat shapes with darts, similar to Brents designs, that is pulled into a 3D shape with a mix of hard and round section. Lots of variations in cut, design etc possible of course... 2) It also happens that Brent and Greg design frameless hulls. I understand the arguments for or against frames, but why do you consider an origami hull as being automatically frameless?? The way I see it you would design an origami shape, and the fact that makes you add stringers and or frames or nothing at all is another question - you might build a very light hull and add lots of structure wherever you think you need it (including bulkheads etc if you want to do so), or build out of very thick material and have nothing inside except maybe something to distribute the loads of your keel on the hull. I also find that in this discussion all frames are treated the same, which is not the case. In steel construction we have seen: a) plating only on frames b) plating on stringers and frames c) plating on stringers that are then carried by frames d) plating only on stringers, no frames at all e) plating only, without any internal structure a and b have to my knowledge completely disappeared from amateur construction, and rightly so, causing lots of hard travese points and a very nasty hungry-horse look due to welding or even impact of waves. e) has been practised by some yards in holland, or by meta in france, but is not very practical for amateurs and tends to be very heavy in steel. c is what is practised in almost all recent designs I know. This is usually done in such a way that frames never touch the hull, except the floors which are usually welded to the skin. My former boats were built like that, and as we left the stringers float freely in slots cut into the frames until all seams were welded, the plating and stringers could move and there was NO heat distortion. Only at the very end stringers were welded with the frames. Because the plating is carried only by stringers, there is no immediate hard point on the hull, or at least MUCH less so than in the older skin- on-frames method. I do not want to start a frames/no frames discussion here, it just bothers me a bit to say "origami = no frames". Gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4312|4292|2004-07-03 12:27:13|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Hot Water Tanks|I think you missed my point. I hate the fact that my motor has a sea water pump! I am suggesting running the exhaust tube thru the water tank to cool it. The hot water is a by product. There was a big discussion about running dry exhaust the other day. Something must be done about the exhaust pipe heat inside the boat. There are several options that come to mind. Use the heat to heat the boat, heat water, etc. More important than heating water is the fact that you draw the heat off the exhaust pipe. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > We have seen lots of boats with hot water heaters run from the engine cooling. A hose runs from the engine to the hot water heater > and back. I'm told there is a coil inside as a heat exchanger. They usually have a backup electric heater in the tank as well for > use when on shore power. I have not seen them run the exhaust through the tank, as the cooling water appears adequate. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:58 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > > > > Winter time here so not much to do. Got down in the low 70's today. > > Haven't been without a T-shirt and jeans in a coons age. Maybe another > > month we will be back to shorts and sandals. > > Anyhow ....... I was thinking about hot water tanks -- water tanks -- > > engine cooling --- exhaust cooling and thought it might be good to > > combine all of them. I only have a 33 HP motor and was wondering how > > it would work to throw a radiator of sorts in the fresh water tank and > > also run the exhaust pipe thru the tank. If you are running low on > > water you could always turn on the transfer pump to save the fresh > > water and then flood the tank again with sea water. That would only be > > the emergency plan! I don't drink water from my tanks and normally use > > the water for showers and washing stuff. Sooo ...... what would be the > > down side? > > As for Dirk ....... haven't seen the lad on this side of South > > America. Will steer clear of all blue round bilge boats! > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > We met a really nice, round bilge, navy blue steel ketch off > > southern Mexico years ago. The captain was based in Costa Rica, and > > > had the nickname "Dirk the Jerk". He was a full time loud mouth > > drunk, that went around telling everyone how he was making out big > > > time running drugs from Columbia. What brings this to mind was his > > admonition that he was taking "Zinc for the Dink". I heard > > > later the Columbians were looking for him, as he and the boat had > > disappeared with $100,000 of their money. I suspected the crew he > > > had picked up on the way south from LA. Rob was his name as I > > recall. I was always curious to hear the end of this story. Does > > > anyone know whatever happened to Dirk? > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:54 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > > > > > > > > > > After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering > > > > flame spraying my tongue. > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4313|4275|2004-07-03 15:02:48|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Origami can and often does incorporate transverse framing to approximate the weight of the original. If you are willing to spend the time, you can work directly with the section modulus of an origami hull. The section modulus allows you to treat the curvature of the hull as part of the framing, allowing for weight reduction that is not provided using the simpler approach. Using the section modulus, you can identify areas that have sufficient strength due to their shapes to allow transverse framing to be reduced. In effect, you can frame the hull longitudinally, and then add transverse framing at irregular intervals, only as required. This is a potential saving over simply framing the boat on regular centers. What origami and round metal boat construction does not typically provide is the use of different thicknesses of materials in the hull as done in conventionally chined construction, which can be used to add puncture resistance in a chined boat below the waterline. Origami solves this problem by a different way - by eliminating any transverse members welded to the hull. Conventionally framed boats can also eliminate transverse members welded to the hull, and routinely do in modern metal boat construction. This is not unique to origami. The potential exists to build a conventionally framed, chined metal boat, using irregular framing, and different thicknesses of materials that has a superior strength to weight ratio to origami construction, but usually not for the same price. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > Greg > > One minor point, on your last paragraph. While it is true that "An origami > hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the > original", depending on the original materials involved, the orgami boat > will be substanially heavier and have a higher vertical center of gravity > than the original which can effect sailing ability, stability, carrying > capacity, ballasting or some combination of the preceeding items. > > Jeff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 10:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this > does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to provide > adequate strength. > > > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the > scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht > design references. Typically you take the vessel > > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a > lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness and > > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more > framing required. The thicker the hull, the less framing. > > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more > transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength > relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel > boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules > provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, and > > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be > false. > > > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as > the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness of > > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further > confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was built > > over strong for a specific purpose. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4314|4275|2004-07-03 15:02:52|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Kerr - Boat Strengths - is a handy reference and covers FG as well. g ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > Greg, > > Intriguing stuff. > > Where can scantling rules from ABS be found ? Is ABS = American Bureau > of Shipping ? > > What "simplified version of rules" do you recommend ? > > I assume the application of these rules is not valid for fiberglass > boats else fatigue lifetimes could presumably be reasonably estimated > and I've never seen any such allusion. Hopefully that's wrong. > > Again appreciatively, > > Courtney > > > > ge@... wrote: > > > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to provide adequate strength. > > > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht design references. Typically you take the vessel > > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness and > > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more framing required. The thicker the hull, the less framing. > > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, and > > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be false. > > > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness of > > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was built > > over strong for a specific purpose. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > >>OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > >> > >>Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > >>understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > >>built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > >>proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > >>strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > >>strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > >>hull was as strong as the original design. > >> > >>I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > >>not seeing it. > >> > >>Thanks for a pointer. > >> > >>Bruce > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4315|4292|2004-07-03 15:02:54|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hot Water Tanks|I am not a fan of dry exhaust so I skipped the postings. The exhaust on the Bones is silent and bullet proof. The fear mongering about wet exhaust comes from design and installation problems. You can build anything so that it gives you trouble. It is a mistake to assume that sailboats have wet exhausts because the builders are somehow stupid, lazy or don't know better. You need a strategy to deal with the hot exhaust and vibrations, which brings with it problems either way you go. My natural gas fired hot water heater is not very effective for cooling the flue gas. A dry exhaust will kill you quick enough if it has a pin hole leak inside the hull, if it is small enough to be masked by the engine noise. A wet exhaust will usually reveal the problem as water in the bilge, and is simple to install with flexible rubber hoses to allow for vibration. I'm not saying not to build a dry exhaust, rather that either way you will have problems - they will just be different problems.. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Niffenegger" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:26 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > I think you missed my point. I hate the fact that my motor has a sea > water pump! I am suggesting running the exhaust tube thru the water > tank to cool it. The hot water is a by product. There was a big > discussion about running dry exhaust the other day. Something must be > done about the exhaust pipe heat inside the boat. There are several > options that come to mind. Use the heat to heat the boat, heat water, > etc. More important than heating water is the fact that you draw the > heat off the exhaust pipe. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > We have seen lots of boats with hot water heaters run from the > engine cooling. A hose runs from the engine to the hot water heater > > and back. I'm told there is a coil inside as a heat exchanger. > They usually have a backup electric heater in the tank as well for > > use when on shore power. I have not seen them run the exhaust > through the tank, as the cooling water appears adequate. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:58 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > > > > > > > Winter time here so not much to do. Got down in the low 70's today. > > > Haven't been without a T-shirt and jeans in a coons age. Maybe another > > > month we will be back to shorts and sandals. > > > Anyhow ....... I was thinking about hot water tanks -- water tanks -- > > > engine cooling --- exhaust cooling and thought it might be good to > > > combine all of them. I only have a 33 HP motor and was wondering how > > > it would work to throw a radiator of sorts in the fresh water tank and > > > also run the exhaust pipe thru the tank. If you are running low on > > > water you could always turn on the transfer pump to save the fresh > > > water and then flood the tank again with sea water. That would only be > > > the emergency plan! I don't drink water from my tanks and normally use > > > the water for showers and washing stuff. Sooo ...... what would be the > > > down side? > > > As for Dirk ....... haven't seen the lad on this side of South > > > America. Will steer clear of all blue round bilge boats! > > > Gerald > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > We met a really nice, round bilge, navy blue steel ketch off > > > southern Mexico years ago. The captain was based in Costa Rica, and > > > > had the nickname "Dirk the Jerk". He was a full time loud mouth > > > drunk, that went around telling everyone how he was making out big > > > > time running drugs from Columbia. What brings this to mind was his > > > admonition that he was taking "Zinc for the Dink". I heard > > > > later the Columbians were looking for him, as he and the boat had > > > disappeared with $100,000 of their money. I suspected the crew he > > > > had picked up on the way south from LA. Rob was his name as I > > > recall. I was always curious to hear the end of this story. Does > > > > anyone know whatever happened to Dirk? > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:54 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hot Water Tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am > considering > > > > > flame spraying my tongue. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4316|4275|2004-07-03 15:04:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|origami = folded construction Origami is a system by which you can pull a metal boat together, using the skin itself to support the weight of construction, rather than frames or jigs. It has reportedly been around for many years, with references wartime construction and patents that predate the use of the technique on the west coast. The notion of "frameless construction" comes from the idea that you don't use the frames to shape the boat. It has to do with the word "construction", not with the finished boat. Our hulls are not frameless. The longitudinals in our boats are longitudinal frames and the floors are transverse frames. The transverse frames are welded to the longitudinals, not the hull, for well documented reasons. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 8:58 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > That is something I always have a little problem with: > > What has origami to do with scantling (or frames for that matter)? > What exactly would then be the definition of origami? > > The way I understand it is that > > 1) origami would be a hull that is built from two flat shapes with > darts, similar to Brents designs, that is pulled into a 3D shape > with a mix of hard and round section. Lots of variations in cut, > design etc possible of course... > > 2) It also happens that Brent and Greg design frameless hulls. > > I understand the arguments for or against frames, but why do you > consider an origami hull as being automatically frameless?? > > The way I see it you would design an origami shape, and the fact > that makes you add stringers and or frames or nothing at all is > another question - you might build a very light hull and add lots of > structure wherever you think you need it (including bulkheads etc if > you want to do so), or build out of very thick material and have > nothing inside except maybe something to distribute the loads of > your keel on the hull. > > I also find that in this discussion all frames are treated the same, > which is not the case. > > In steel construction we have seen: > a) plating only on frames > b) plating on stringers and frames > c) plating on stringers that are then carried by frames > d) plating only on stringers, no frames at all > e) plating only, without any internal structure > > a and b have to my knowledge completely disappeared from amateur > construction, and rightly so, causing lots of hard travese points > and a very nasty hungry-horse look due to welding or even impact of > waves. > > e) has been practised by some yards in holland, or by meta in > france, but is not very practical for amateurs and tends to be very > heavy in steel. > > c is what is practised in almost all recent designs I know. This is > usually done in such a way that frames never touch the hull, except > the floors which are usually welded to the skin. My former boats > were built like that, and as we left the stringers float freely in > slots cut into the frames until all seams were welded, the plating > and stringers could move and there was NO heat distortion. Only at > the very end stringers were welded with the frames. Because the > plating is carried only by stringers, there is no immediate hard > point on the hull, or at least MUCH less so than in the older skin- > on-frames method. > > I do not want to start a frames/no frames discussion here, it just > bothers me a bit to say "origami = no frames". > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4317|4285|2004-07-03 15:37:45|brentswain38|Re: Hot Water Tanks with Zincs?|Galvanized waterpipes have been used for centuries with no adverse health problems. Many are still in use. Lack of zinc in the diet is a major souce of prostate problems particularly amoung vegitarians, red meat being a major source of zinc. Viruses have problems reproducing in the presence of zinc , which is why people suck zinc lozenges from the drugstore at the first sign of a cold or flu. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "rockrothwell" wrote: > Hi All, > > Just scored a 6 gallon force 10 hot water tank through a friend awho > got it at a scrap dealer. Exellent buy at $20. got a used tank with > all the fittings, 1500w heating element, pressure release valve & > thermostat/switching for 170 deg F. and a 2nd tank that is a virgin. > maybe 20 minutes to assemble. the lovely thing about this hot water > tank, aside from being new & cheap is that it has a separate heating > coil so you can heat it off of a diesel space heater or from engine > heat > > Anyway, they mounted brass fittings (gate valves, pressure relief > valve) onto an aluminum tank. Duh! You would think that they would > have figured this the most basic of equasions but aparently not! I > always thought force 10 was a quality manufacturer. anyway, add H2O > and you get major corrosion of the aluminum and that is exactly what > happened right at the threaded pipe nipples of the tank. > > I have been thinking of at least physically separating the aluminum > pipe nipples from the brass fittings by using pex (or whatever Bartle > & Gibson (the local wholesale plumbing outfit) recommend for plastic > fittings. this i figure will 'spread the load' of corrosion so the > whole interior of the tank will corrode at the same rate as opposed > to only the pipe nipples corroding heavily. comments please. > > Have also been thinking (but am really not sure) of putting a zinc in > the system to hopefully eliminate corrosion. yes I know that for > drinking water you definitely do NOT want to put a zinc anywere in > the system as you dont want to injest zinc/lead. But is it dangerous > to have a zinc in the hot water system and use it for washing dishes > and showering?? can you absorb the zinc through the skin or your eyes > or something like that? > > all comments much appreciated! > > > Cheers, > Shane | 4318|4257|2004-07-03 15:42:21|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|My huls have hit everythiong from rocks to steel barges without denting let alone holing the hull. The chances of holing the size of boat we are talking about in 3/16th inch plate are practically nil. I've hit sharp rocks at full speed with no noticeable effect. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kendall" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > > Actually unless you have tanks the entire length of the hull this > > wouldn't work like that. lets say there is a tank over the keels. the > > wall of the tank at the forward end where it is welded to the hull > > would create a hard point. If you were moving in a forward direction > > and hit something it would most likly puncture the hull just before > > and at that forward end of the tank. Up till the point at which the > > tank was built in the hull would slightly deflect or bend. At that > > transverse weld and tank wall would be very stiff and no longer > > deflect. Unless the tank was small enough in dimension that even with > > the tank there the hull deflected tank and all..... not sure that > > would work that way with the tank there as far as deflecting but its a > > thought. > > > > lol something to ignorantly debate about :) so lets get some empirical > > evidence :) we need volunteers with boats with integral tanks and > > someone with one with drop in tanks. :) now lets find a sharp > > underwater obstruction and h hit it a strong glancing blow running > > down the hull and see what happens with no transverse welds and tanks > > as opposed to one with :) two boats approxx same displacement and same > > hull thickness, moving the same speed :) > > > > any volunteers? > > > > > > Scott Carle > > > > > > ps. don't try this at home kids :) or is that don't try this with your > > home :) > > > been following this, and the closest anology I can come up with is > like shooting a handkerchief with a 22, if the handkerchief is hung by > the top corners, it will deflect, and you can't shoot a hole through > it, tie the bottom corners too, and you'll get a hole every time, > same works with arrows and hanky's, and punching paper bags, as long > as the material is able to deflect it will, when you prevent > deflection, it will rupture under the same forces. this would also > extend to tanks >securly< mounted in close proximity to the hull. > > I have always thought that the optimum location for tanks was in > the bilge area above the ballast, as generally it (the bilge area) is > of heavier gauge material reducing the damage potential, and it is > possible to isolate the bilge from the rest of the boat with a water > tight sole, with plugable drains in case of damage, and the weight of > the tanks will produce less effect on the boat's trim whether empty or > full, I had one boat where the tanks were on opposite sides, (fuel aft > stbd, water port front) and depending on whether they were full or > empty, you ran with a list to the full one, or moved things around to > make up for it. > > Ken. | 4319|4257|2004-07-03 15:44:59|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Transverse tank parts are way up in the garboard area where a reef is extremely unlikely to reach, let alone hit it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" wrote: > I think I can speak for a lot of us that follow this list that the > subject of drop in or integral fuel tanks is of interest. From what > has been said here it seems that either of these methods works well if > the tanks are sealed properly inside and out. Integral seems to be > more material and space efficient. However the subject of transverse > framing welded to the hull causing hard points has touted a lot by > both the builder's on the list. my question i guess is addressed at > brent then since he is in favor of integral tanks.... Is there a > reason that integral tanks are ok where transverse framing is not? is > it a size thing? since the transverse welds would be fairly short for > most tanks? you have been adamant against transverse framing on the > list prior to this so I am curious. My question is not meant to be > contintious, but I am very curious at the reasoning behind this. > > My personal preferance from a asthetic and material point of view > would be for integral tanks. However I would put saftey first over > those if there was reason to do so. > > scott carle > > ps.. one more why! in the list of lifes why's :) | 4320|4275|2004-07-03 15:45:44|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Compare it with other origami hulls the same size and use the same thickness that has worked for them. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C. Dillahunty" wrote: > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > hull was as strong as the original design. > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > not seeing it. > > Thanks for a pointer. > > Bruce | 4321|4257|2004-07-03 15:49:30|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of the keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from the chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high aspect ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Greg, > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > the keel wobbling? > Regards, > Ted | 4322|4275|2004-07-03 15:55:18|Gerd|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Thanks Greg, could not have said it better myself ;-) As for "frames", I used "stringers " and "frames" but I guess we understand each other. Yago was originally designed with stringers supported by regularly spaced frames, for conventional overhead building on a jig. Scantling was done very empirically, meaning we always designed based on veritas requirements, added a little and anyway had to pass all designs by the french national board (affaires maritimes) before being granted permission to take the boat out - they were quite tough really. Having converted to Origami, I keep the same sort of structure, but with the freedom to space frames irregularly, the first lot spaced strategically, like in the mast supporting section, and the others then with optimized intervals so as to be within max. 1.2 m from each other. This, plus the fact that the conical section has additional camber in the sheet, will give me a boat that is stronger and stiffer than the original hardchine version - and anyway, in a relatively small size for steel. .. Although I guess that if I would really dig deeper into this, I might be able to optimize further, and gain some weight. Gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4323|4275|2004-07-03 16:07:50|David K McComber|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Greg Do you mean "The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and Owners by: Dave Gerr"? If so, his rules call for "T" frames and I believe very few boats under 45' are built this way. If not Gerr's book could you be more specific? I have never seen a rule that uses flat bar frames, be they transverse or longitudinal. I would love to find such. The closest I have found was a listing of common practice for alloy boats, from the "Metal Boat Society". David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: ge@... [mailto:ge@...] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 3:01 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness Kerr - Boat Strengths - is a handy reference and covers FG as well. g ----- Original Message ----- From: "Courtney Thomas" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > Greg, > > Intriguing stuff. > > Where can scantling rules from ABS be found ? Is ABS = American Bureau > of Shipping ? > > What "simplified version of rules" do you recommend ? > > I assume the application of these rules is not valid for fiberglass > boats else fatigue lifetimes could presumably be reasonably estimated > and I've never seen any such allusion. Hopefully that's wrong. > > Again appreciatively, > > Courtney > > > > ge@... wrote: > > > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to provide adequate strength. > > > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht design references. Typically you take the vessel > > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness and > > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more framing required. The thicker the hull, the less framing. > > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, and > > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be false. > > > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness of > > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was built > > over strong for a specific purpose. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > >>OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > >> > >>Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > >>understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > >>built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > >>proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > >>strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > >>strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > >>hull was as strong as the original design. > >> > >>I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > >>not seeing it. > >> > >>Thanks for a pointer. > >> > >>Bruce > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4324|4275|2004-07-03 16:20:36|Gerd|Origami History|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > It has reportedly been around for many years, with references wartime construction and patents that predate the use of the technique on the west coast. Greg, that is interesting - already wanted to bring this up before - could we maybe collect a bit of origami history and links to related techniques here? Of course there is stitch&glue and Van de Stadt and others, including Segger for his ply-dinghies I mentioned here earlier. But was there origami-as-we-know-it before Brent? What are the patents you mention? Was there ever any professional building before? Do you know of other designers or boats, that are not active in this group? I think it would be a very good add-on to our files and documentation here. Gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueler.com/boats/| 4325|4275|2004-07-03 17:09:37|sae140|Re: Hull strength/thickness|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > That is something I always have a little problem with: > > [snip] > > I do not want to start a frames/no frames discussion here, it just > bothers me a bit to say "origami = no frames". > > Gerd I don't know if it will add anything to this debate, but I've just been reading an article by Michael Kasten at: http://old.cruisingworld.com/kasten2.htm , in which he criticises the concept of "frameless construction" and at one point comments, "Many so-called "frameless" boats make extensive use of longitudinals, which, in "folded-plate" construction, are often pre-welded to the plate. Bulkheads or other internal transverse structures are used to reduce the span of these longitudinals. Strictly speaking, then, these boats do have framing — and lots of it." Having read Michael's article it occurs to me that the term "frameless construction" can have two distinctly different meanings: - the first relates to the building process itself - whether or not frames are first constructed and then used as a former around which to shape the hull. The second meaning of "frameless construction" relates to the finished product - whether or not frames are present in the finished product and whether or not these add anything to the strength of the hull. Whether longitudinals can be considered to be "frames" or not seems a moot point - they certainly add strength and rigidity, but do not actually 'enclose' anything, which I'd always thought was a pre- requisite of a frame. Having said this, I've just looked up the dictionary entry for 'frame', which was most interesting. Among the definitions for frame are: to form, to shape, to put together, to contrive or concoct - from the Old English 'framian' - "to be helpful". In this latter sense, I'd say Origami boats are most decidely of framed construction. Colin| 4326|4304|2004-07-03 17:12:09|Alex|Re: Who's building a Swain Now?|Hi Shane, I am currently building a 36 in Courtenay, Vancouver Island, right now. Brent and I have just completed the basic hull plus pilot house and cockpit, with the keels prefabricated and nearly ready to attach. E-mail me at northcanoe@... if you'd like to come up and see it. Feel free to bring your Mig welder if you are really itching to weld...(!) Alex| 4327|4292|2004-07-03 20:46:50|Graeme|lead water pipes|http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/washpost/20040702/ts_was hpost/a21033_2004jul1 WASA To Speed Removal Of Pipes By David Nakamura, Washington Post Staff Writer The D.C. Water and Sewer Authority will replace more than 23,000 lead service pipes across the city by 2010 under an ambitious public works program aimed at eliminating the potentially toxic metal from the water supply. The $350 million plan, unanimously approved by WASA's board of directors yesterday, means pipes will be replaced at a far more aggressive pace than mandated by federal regulators. Water rates, already expected to increase 5 percent per year because of other projects, could rise an additional 1 or 2 percent, the agency said. Board Chairman Glenn S. Gerstell said eliminating lead service lines would largely remove the threat of the metal leaching into the water, as has occurred over the past few years. The agency set aside concerns from some city officials who said replacing the pipes should be a last-ditch effort after other, less expensive measures are tried. "This is very much the right thing to do," Gerstell said. "These pipes have been in the ground over 100 years, and over the years, we've replaced some in fits and stops but never fully addressed it."After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering flame spraying my tongue. Check out this site: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.html#what However, be sure to read the warning about high intake! They report that a man ingesting 450 mg vomited within a half hour of ingesting. What kind of a dumb ass would eat that amount of zinc? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Hot dipped galvanised pipe and tanks ie items that have been > immersed in a bath of molten zinc, are often used in water supply > systems. Zinc is very different from lead. I think one can get zinc > tablets from health food shop, although I don't know why. You are > right lead is poisonous although the Romans used it for their water > pipes. The word plumber comes from the latin for lead; plumbum. > > There is high temperature plastic pipe made for domestic hot water > and it would be worthwhile checking the plumbing supplies shops to > see what is available and at what temperature and pressure it can > operate. It would overcome the differential metal problem and you > would avoid the doubt as to wether the pipe thread had cut through > the tape or sealant being used to isolate the aluminum from the > brass. As you say I don't know what the manufacturers were thinking > of using brass on aluminum. Some people have stopped using aluminum > saucepans because of the dangers of ingesting the metal, although I > guess we are not talking about drinking the water from the hot water > system. From memory, the scare about aluminium saucepans was that > their use lead to Alzheimers although one wonders if that story was > put about by stainless steel saucepan manufacturers. > > Regards, > Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4328|4275|2004-07-03 21:03:12|Ben Tucker|Re: Origami History|Hi gerd an interesting titbit from Tom Colvin on origami. "Secondly the reference to Origami building. Papers were written about this method before I was born. If the system had any merit all builders would be using it. It is a very labor-intensive method and thus costly" hmmm I wonder if he ever built any in origami? Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > It has reportedly been around for many years, with references > wartime construction and patents that predate the use of the > technique on the west coast. > > Greg, that is interesting - already wanted to bring this up before - > could we maybe collect a bit of origami history and links to related > techniques here? > Of course there is stitch&glue and Van de Stadt and others, > including Segger for his ply-dinghies I mentioned here earlier. But > was there origami-as-we-know-it before Brent? What are the patents > you mention? Was there ever any professional building before? Do you > know of other designers or boats, that are not active in this group? > I think it would be a very good add-on to our files and > documentation here. > > > Gerd > The YAGO Project > http://www.justmueler.com/boats/ | 4329|4275|2004-07-03 21:31:13|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Gerd, While I agree with you that origami boat building is not synonymous with 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with the origami method of building boats goes away if you then have to come back in and fit frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and install frames in a completed hull. One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) is that the frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the plating then to be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time savings when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer drafting methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce electronic cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the steel supplier with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste material. I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the completed boat discussions well. Jeff| 4330|4275|2004-07-03 21:58:05|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength/thickness|That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for some time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat is strong simply because it is built in steel. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > hull was as strong as the original design. > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > not seeing it. > > Thanks for a pointer. > > Bruce > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4331|4292|2004-07-03 22:04:31|Michael Casling|Re: lead water pipes|Part of the ongoing problems with Louie Von B's health was lead poisoning that came from the pots, pans, plates and drinking cups. He died at 57 so I passed him age wise this year. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Graeme To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] lead water pipes http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/washpost/20040702/ts_was hpost/a21033_2004jul1 WASA To Speed Removal Of Pipes By David Nakamura, Washington Post Staff Writer The D.C. Water and Sewer Authority will replace more than 23,000 lead service pipes across the city by 2010 under an ambitious public works program aimed at eliminating the potentially toxic metal from the water supply. The $350 million plan, unanimously approved by WASA's board of directors yesterday, means pipes will be replaced at a far more aggressive pace than mandated by federal regulators. Water rates, already expected to increase 5 percent per year because of other projects, could rise an additional 1 or 2 percent, the agency said. Board Chairman Glenn S. Gerstell said eliminating lead service lines would largely remove the threat of the metal leaching into the water, as has occurred over the past few years. The agency set aside concerns from some city officials who said replacing the pipes should be a last-ditch effort after other, less expensive measures are tried. "This is very much the right thing to do," Gerstell said. "These pipes have been in the ground over 100 years, and over the years, we've replaced some in fits and stops but never fully addressed it."After reading about the benefits of daily zinc intake I am considering flame spraying my tongue. Check out this site: http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.html#what However, be sure to read the warning about high intake! They report that a man ingesting 450 mg vomited within a half hour of ingesting. What kind of a dumb ass would eat that amount of zinc? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Hot dipped galvanised pipe and tanks ie items that have been > immersed in a bath of molten zinc, are often used in water supply > systems. Zinc is very different from lead. I think one can get zinc > tablets from health food shop, although I don't know why. You are > right lead is poisonous although the Romans used it for their water > pipes. The word plumber comes from the latin for lead; plumbum. > > There is high temperature plastic pipe made for domestic hot water > and it would be worthwhile checking the plumbing supplies shops to > see what is available and at what temperature and pressure it can > operate. It would overcome the differential metal problem and you > would avoid the doubt as to wether the pipe thread had cut through > the tape or sealant being used to isolate the aluminum from the > brass. As you say I don't know what the manufacturers were thinking > of using brass on aluminum. Some people have stopped using aluminum > saucepans because of the dangers of ingesting the metal, although I > guess we are not talking about drinking the water from the hot water > system. From memory, the scare about aluminium saucepans was that > their use lead to Alzheimers although one wonders if that story was > put about by stainless steel saucepan manufacturers. > > Regards, > Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4332|4275|2004-07-04 05:07:20|Gerd|Re: Origami History|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > It is a very labor-intensive method and thus costly" Thanks, Ben, for the reference, but I must have missed something then - I am at this moment putting the last tacks on my 31' hull, after 8 full working days and about 2000 US including steel, welding and cutting tools.... ;-) BTW, anybody has any news from Alex? gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4333|4275|2004-07-04 05:24:26|Gerd|Re: Hull strength/thickness|> There is an even greater time savings when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer drafting methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce electronic cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the steel supplier with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste material. Jeff, I am aware that it will take time to add frames, but it will certainly be a lot easier to cut to size and weld into a finished hull than to build the frames first on the floor, including lofting, setting them up on a jig etc. Fitting frames is more work than not fitting them, but that does not make the origami advantage go away. As for having them plasma cut from sheet material, that is going to be _very_ expensive compared to just cutting lengths of flat bar. I know somebody in Germany who prepared cutting files for a supplier - and what he did was that he designed frames that were no longer of uniform width like with bars but that were wider or narrower depending on the load, and had holes punched in to save weight. To get efficient nesting and easy transport he designed them in pieces that would then fit together like a puzzle. Very nice work for conventional construction, very precise and an quick and easy start - but costwise bars are a lot cheaper. Gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4334|4334|2004-07-04 08:43:28|Richard|Are there smaller oragami designs ?|I have been following this group with much interest for a while now although this is my first post. I have made several model sized boats (10"- 16") using the technique with 20ga gal. steel and hulls I created using Carlson's freeware Hull Designer, and that in itself has been great fun. I now have access to the space and to friends who would like to attempt a larger project. I wanted to start by building a small dingy around 14' or so out of steel. I know aluminum would be better for such a small craft but as this is my foray into building a larger vessel I would like to become more familiar with the materials. Is there anyone who has completed a project like this ? Any advise or information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Richard| 4335|4335|2004-07-04 10:09:31|pricereynolds|Smaller Origami Designs for a Sheet Metal Application?|Hello All, I am a sheet metal fabricator and I am curious as to if some one has tryed to build an Origami Boat in a thin sheet metal? From the looks of it, if plate can be formed in this way, sheet metal could be done this way as well. I would like to understand better the processes involved in laying out a flat pattern for the Origami Boat. Could some one give me some directions on the layout process? Any assistance would be appreciated. Price| 4336|4275|2004-07-04 13:48:57|Charles Leblanc|Re: Hull strength/thickness|I have not read the "Element of boat strength" yet but I can give a few comments. Small "T" frames are really uncommon for any boat. I know that you can get small aluminum "T" extrusions but that would be limited to the aluminum hull. Larger boats will have fabricated "T" beams but that is for supporting the main structure. Usually these are located on 25+ meters boat and are use. Usually look at 600mm of dept with a 200mm x 20mm sole. I guess that you could use an "I" beam, cut it in two longitudinally and you could have two "T" beams but most of the time, you can freely substitute a "T" beam with an Angle beam "L" of similar depth and flange size. The only problem with the "L" beam is that it could bend around an incline axis do you add a tripping bracket to keep it permendicular to the plate. Nowadays, most of the new small boat that I have seen are using flatbat instead of another type of profile. They are slightly larger and heavier but they take far less time to install and to connect. They are fairly easy to weld and can be cutted out of the same plate you are using for the deck. Charles Leblanc currently looking to build a 10m catamaran --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > Greg > > Do you mean "The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and > Owners by: Dave Gerr"? If so, his rules call for "T" frames and I believe > very few boats under 45' are built this way. > > If not Gerr's book could you be more specific? I have never seen a rule that > uses flat bar frames, be they transverse or longitudinal. I would love to > find such. The closest I have found was a listing of common practice for > alloy boats, from the "Metal Boat Society". > > > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@e... [mailto:ge@e...] > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 3:01 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > Kerr - Boat Strengths - is a handy reference and covers FG as well. > > g > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:18 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > Greg, > > > > Intriguing stuff. > > > > Where can scantling rules from ABS be found ? Is ABS = American Bureau > > of Shipping ? > > > > What "simplified version of rules" do you recommend ? > > > > I assume the application of these rules is not valid for fiberglass > > boats else fatigue lifetimes could presumably be reasonably estimated > > and I've never seen any such allusion. Hopefully that's wrong. > > > > Again appreciatively, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this > does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > > > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to > provide adequate strength. > > > > > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the > scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > > > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht > design references. Typically you take the vessel > > > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a > lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness > and > > > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more > framing required. The thicker the hull, the less > framing. > > > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more > transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength > relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel > boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > boat > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules > provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, > and > > > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be > false. > > > > > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong > as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness > of > > > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further > confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was > built > > > over strong for a specific purpose. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > >>OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > >> > > >>Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > >>understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > >>built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > > >>proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > >>strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > >>strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > > >>hull was as strong as the original design. > > >> > > >>I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > >>not seeing it. > > >> > > >>Thanks for a pointer. > > >> > > >>Bruce > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > s/v Mutiny > > Rhodes Bounty II > > lying Oriental, NC > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1088967773/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=625538806> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4337|4275|2004-07-04 13:57:21|Gerd|Re: Hull strength/thickness|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Leblanc" wrote:> Small "T" frames are really uncommon for any boat. > can get small aluminum "T" extrusions but that would be limited to > the aluminum hull. Absolutely not, Charles, you can get 30x30x3 or 25x25x3 steel mm everywhere, very common stuff. The advantage of the T over the L or flat is also that when you try to make it follow the camber of your sheet, the T beam is easier to keep perpendicular to the plating than the asymetric L, and the flat bar will try to evade pressure in any direction and is very difficult to keep from wriggling along the plating like a drunken snake... ;-) Gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4338|4257|2004-07-04 14:13:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Isn't this a case of "Practice what you Preach"? To do otherwise calls the integrity of origami into question. A container awash in a seaway can certainly strike the garboards and tear a hole in a 3/16" steel hull at a transverse member. There are plenty of containers out there - more every day. They are a much greater hazard than reefs, because they are uncharted, and effectively invisible. Transverse members welded to the hull are a mistake and completely unnecessary. Based on his ship-building experience, Ron built the Bones more than 20 years ago without any transverse frames welded to the hull. The hull is welded to the longitudinals, and the transverse frames welded to the longitudinals. We don't need to take a step backwards in origami. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Transverse tank parts are way up in the garboard area where a reef is > extremely unlikely to reach, let alone hit it. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "audeojude" > wrote: > > I think I can speak for a lot of us that follow this list that the > > subject of drop in or integral fuel tanks is of interest. From what > > has been said here it seems that either of these methods works well > if > > the tanks are sealed properly inside and out. Integral seems to be > > more material and space efficient. However the subject of transverse > > framing welded to the hull causing hard points has touted a lot by > > both the builder's on the list. my question i guess is addressed at > > brent then since he is in favor of integral tanks.... Is there a > > reason that integral tanks are ok where transverse framing is not? > is > > it a size thing? since the transverse welds would be fairly short > for > > most tanks? you have been adamant against transverse framing on the > > list prior to this so I am curious. My question is not meant to be > > contintious, but I am very curious at the reasoning behind this. > > > > My personal preferance from a asthetic and material point of view > > would be for integral tanks. However I would put saftey first over > > those if there was reason to do so. > > > > scott carle > > > > ps.. one more why! in the list of lifes why's :) > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4339|4275|2004-07-04 14:16:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|This can also propagate mistakes from one boat to the next. Fatigue failures occur over time. Thus, success to date is no indicator of success tomorrow. It is more reliable to confirm the hull scantlings against a published rule, that has been subject to rigorous analysis, both through engineering and usage Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... . ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > Compare it with other origami hulls the same size and use the same > thickness that has worked for them. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > wrote: > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find > the > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a > given > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > not seeing it. > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > Bruce > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4340|4275|2004-07-04 14:16:10|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick skull. :). The difference between material strength and engineered strength can lead the unwary into error. One of the great advances in recent times has been computer design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for an object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no easy way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with lighter framing than older designs. By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have the same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way to convert from conventional to origami, to build with equivalent strength, without using any lookup tables. Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have seen it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter than alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in this way. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for some time. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a boat > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > not seeing it. > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4341|4341|2004-07-04 20:48:19|yvesmariedetanton|(no subject)|Another advantage of the "T" bars is the easier access for painting on the back sides. Considering that you can switch from Angle to T's. of same width and thicknesses. It is true though that "T" bars are easier to get in Europe than in the US.| 4342|4292|2004-07-05 03:11:59|sae140|lead water pipes|With regard to the "dangerous substances" debate, I do think there is a need to keep a sense of proportion when considering what constitutes a harmful level of any suspect substance. In certain areas of the world there appears to be something of an alarmist absolutist attitude developing. When I was a kid we used to play with globules of mercury on the workbench, pushing this stuff around with our bare fingers - whereas these days a single broken mercury thermometer in the lab causes a near-panic. Sure, mercury poisoning was common in the Victorian era, but this was due to people either swallowing the stuff wholesale, or rubbing large quantities of it into their skins as ointments or when polishing moleskin top-hats. Same too with asbestos: puffing out dust from brake-drums once a year cannot be reasonably compared with the industrial environments which are known to have caused wide- spread lung disease - viz. back gardens close to asbestos factories which had the appearance of heavy snow even in mid-summer(!). Although the 'blue' asbestos fibres formerly used for insulation lagging is known to be highly carcenogenic, even the discovery of relatively safe corrugated cement-asbestos(white) - widely used as roofing sheeting - now causes alarms to go off. And simply because the word 'asbestos' is heard, and causes a panic. Hand-in-glove with this absolutist "must have a perfectly safe environment" attitude is developing exponential rates of allergic diseases in the young, notably asthma - which is thought to be occurring because the human body actually needs trace amounts of poisons and toxins in order to stimulate it's auto-immune system. So - if you've got some zinc, or small areas of lead in contact with drinking water on your boat, I wouldn't get over-excited - after all, you're going to be drinking it with traces of cyanide anyway ..... or maybe you didn't know that human saliva contains 0.01% of cyanide (as a thiocyanate salt), and that blood serum levels of potassium thiocyanate are around 0.54 mg % in non-smokers, and can be even 20x higher in smokers ! Worrying isn't it - I wonder if the authorities are going to ban the ingestion of saliva next ? Colin Life - a sexually-transmitted condition with a 100% mortality rate.| 4343|4275|2004-07-05 03:29:07|denis buggy|Re: Hull strength/thickness|dear Charles I have been working for some time on a similar project . I have purchased study plans from Bruce Roberts for a 60ft cat in aluminium which he said could be used as a basis for a cat in steel and I have much more to offer . there is a 50 steel cat by Bowden of Australia max knots 7 and "steel magnolia "is for sale , I contacted the vendors for figures , drawings ect without luck . there are two excellent sites if you wish to study hull shapes . mv equinox and mv solstice in Scotland .I have found a co making steel cat trawlers who state their hulls will do 25 knots without nuclear power . I also must reply to Gerd who was looking for hull shapes I have them "too carefully filed" on my computer , many of the worlds boat designers have something in common - appalling manners when contacted re steel cats , replies have varied from ridicule to " is it Patrick's day already " to you could not pay me to undertake such a project my career would end well maybe if you paid me enough " . I have an interest in aviation and I heard many highly qualified experts ridicule airbus for their little winglets and their sound and fuel savings for almost a decade and now you cannot get a plane without them . if you want T frames weld two angles together to form a t . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Leblanc To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 6:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness I have not read the "Element of boat strength" yet but I can give a few comments. Small "T" frames are really uncommon for any boat. I know that you can get small aluminum "T" extrusions but that would be limited to the aluminum hull. Larger boats will have fabricated "T" beams but that is for supporting the main structure. Usually these are located on 25+ meters boat and are use. Usually look at 600mm of dept with a 200mm x 20mm sole. I guess that you could use an "I" beam, cut it in two longitudinally and you could have two "T" beams but most of the time, you can freely substitute a "T" beam with an Angle beam "L" of similar depth and flange size. The only problem with the "L" beam is that it could bend around an incline axis do you add a tripping bracket to keep it permendicular to the plate. Nowadays, most of the new small boat that I have seen are using flatbat instead of another type of profile. They are slightly larger and heavier but they take far less time to install and to connect. They are fairly easy to weld and can be cutted out of the same plate you are using for the deck. Charles Leblanc currently looking to build a 10m catamaran --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > Greg > > Do you mean "The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, Designers, and > Owners by: Dave Gerr"? If so, his rules call for "T" frames and I believe > very few boats under 45' are built this way. > > If not Gerr's book could you be more specific? I have never seen a rule that > uses flat bar frames, be they transverse or longitudinal. I would love to > find such. The closest I have found was a listing of common practice for > alloy boats, from the "Metal Boat Society". > > > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ge@e... [mailto:ge@e...] > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 3:01 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > Kerr - Boat Strengths - is a handy reference and covers FG as well. > > g > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:18 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > Greg, > > > > Intriguing stuff. > > > > Where can scantling rules from ABS be found ? Is ABS = American Bureau > > of Shipping ? > > > > What "simplified version of rules" do you recommend ? > > > > I assume the application of these rules is not valid for fiberglass > > boats else fatigue lifetimes could presumably be reasonably estimated > > and I've never seen any such allusion. Hopefully that's wrong. > > > > Again appreciatively, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. However, this > does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > > > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed to > provide adequate strength. > > > > > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying the > scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > > > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in yacht > design references. Typically you take the vessel > > > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and the use a > lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness > and > > > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, the more > framing required. The thicker the hull, the less > framing. > > > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. The more > transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength > relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel > boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > boat > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling rules > provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, > and > > > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may well be > false. > > > > > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as strong > as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness > of > > > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to further > confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was > built > > > over strong for a specific purpose. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > >>OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > >> > > >>Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > >>understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > >>built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > > >>proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > >>strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > >>strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > > >>hull was as strong as the original design. > > >> > > >>I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > >>not seeing it. > > >> > > >>Thanks for a pointer. > > >> > > >>Bruce > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > s/v Mutiny > > Rhodes Bounty II > > lying Oriental, NC > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1088967773/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=625538806> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4344|22|2004-07-05 10:35:43|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /archive posts/Origamiposts_2003_pt_2.zip Uploaded by : brentgeery Description : posts for the remainder of 2003 You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/archive%20posts/Origamiposts_2003_pt_2.zip To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, brentgeery | 4345|22|2004-07-05 10:38:28|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /archive posts/Origamiposts_2004_pt_1.zip Uploaded by : brentgeery Description : posts for first half of 2004 (Jan-June) You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/archive%20posts/Origamiposts_2004_pt_1.zip To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, brentgeery | 4346|22|2004-07-05 10:55:26|Brent Geery|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|On 5 Jul 2004 14:38:18 -0000, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /archive posts/Origamiposts_2004_pt_1.zip > Uploaded by : brentgeery > Description : posts for first half of 2004 (Jan-June) > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/archive%20posts/Origamiposts_2004_pt_1.zip I'm new here, so I went through all the past messages to catch up on things. I uploaded two files to get the TXT message archives up to date to the current month. I'd also like to point out something that is clear when you read the messages over a week period -- the noise in the group is rising at a geometric rate. The first years worth of messages were almost pure useful on-topic info, and the last 6 months have been nearly 50% off topic, spam, replies to spam, or thinly-veiled advertisements of a origami designer that will go unnamed. At the rate this is going, there won't be a reason to read this list in another 6-9 months. If you enjoy this list, I hope you will heed my warnings about the trends, and do your part to turn then around. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4347|4257|2004-07-05 11:13:30|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing is strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add localized structural members as required to take the loads of the keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by removing the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal framing in the keel area. For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not form puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks installed over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of the > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from the > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high aspect > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Greg, > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > > the keel wobbling? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4348|4257|2004-07-05 12:14:07|aaron riis|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Brent, could you tell me, if I was going to build a built in gasoline tank into the hull, what sort of epoxy would ensure against corrosion? I am aware of the dangers of gas fumes, thus it would have to be outside vented and metallically insulated from the inside of the boat, regards Aaron Riis--- brentswain38 wrote: > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting > the curve of the > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin > keelers some > transverse webs either from the chine to the > centreline or from the > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . > For a high aspect > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are > required. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Greg, > > If you don't have transverce frames in your > designs how do you stop > > the keel wobbling? > > Regards, > > Ted > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 4349|4257|2004-07-05 14:03:31|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Good Point, Greg. Literally the ONLY structure failure I have personally ever come across on a steel hull (and I have seen some very badly built boats...) was when a boat ran aground off Sable d'Olonnes in the Biscay and left pounding there in heavy swell overnight. The owner/builder had insisted on welding his keel to the plating, instead of slotting into the skin and welding to the structure the way we all did. When he got there in the morning, hull and keel were cleanly separated along a line running in the bottom plate, parallel to the weld at a distance of about 15mm. The hull itself (skin on stringers supported by frames) had filled up and taken a lot of beating all night, the mass of water trapped inside acting like a hammer when coming down, bent and dented beyond recognition, but was still intact, no seams split, no holes anywhere. Gerd the YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing is strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by removing the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal framing in the keel area. > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not form puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks installed over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of the > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from the > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high aspect > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > Greg, > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > > > the keel wobbling? > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4350|22|2004-07-05 15:00:48|Gerd|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Welcome anyway, and try to heed your own warning and increase signal rather than noise ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On 5 Jul 2004 14:38:18 -0000, origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > > group. > > > > File : /archive posts/Origamiposts_2004_pt_1.zip > > Uploaded by : brentgeery > > Description : posts for first half of 2004 (Jan-June) > > > > You can access this file at the URL > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/archive% 20posts/Origamiposts_2004_pt_1.zip > > I'm new here, so I went through all the past messages to catch up on > things. I uploaded two files to get the TXT message archives up to > date to the current month. > > I'd also like to point out something that is clear when you read the > messages over a week period -- the noise in the group is rising at a > geometric rate. > > The first years worth of messages were almost pure useful on-topic > info, and the last 6 months have been nearly 50% off topic, spam, > replies to spam, or thinly-veiled advertisements of a origami designer > that will go unnamed. > > At the rate this is going, there won't be a reason to read this list > in another 6-9 months. If you enjoy this list, I hope you will heed > my warnings about the trends, and do your part to turn then around. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4351|4257|2004-07-05 16:16:20|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the depth of the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of the keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no floors or tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a west coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in such proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on paper, or theory.. Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste their time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding of the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing is strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by removing the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal framing in the keel area. > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not form puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks installed over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of the > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from the > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high aspect > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > wrote: > > > Greg, > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you stop > > > the keel wobbling? > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4352|4257|2004-07-05 16:18:47|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Am I right in assuming that this was a high aspect ratio keel with minimum length and width at the attachement point of the keel to hull? Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Good Point, Greg. > > Literally the ONLY structure failure I have personally ever come > across on a steel hull (and I have seen some very badly built > boats...) was when a boat ran aground off Sable d'Olonnes in the > Biscay and left pounding there in heavy swell overnight. The > owner/builder had insisted on welding his keel to the plating, > instead of slotting into the skin and welding to the structure the > way we all did. > > When he got there in the morning, hull and keel were cleanly > separated along a line running in the bottom plate, parallel to the > weld at a distance of about 15mm. > > The hull itself (skin on stringers supported by frames) had filled > up and taken a lot of beating all night, the mass of water trapped > inside acting like a hammer when coming down, bent and dented beyond > recognition, but was still intact, no seams split, no holes anywhere. > > > Gerd > > the YAGO Project > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing > is strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by > removing the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is > hard > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > framing in the keel area. > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not > form puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks > installed over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve > of the > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from > the > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > aspect > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > wrote: > > > > Greg, > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you > stop > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4353|4275|2004-07-05 16:23:26|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats under 60 ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. Brent swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" wrote: > Gerd, > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not synonymous with > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with the origami > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come back in and fit > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and install > frames in a completed hull. > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) is that the > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the plating then to > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time savings > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer drafting > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce electronic > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the steel supplier > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste material. > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the completed boat > discussions well. > > Jeff | 4354|4275|2004-07-05 16:25:23|brentswain38|Re: Origami History|I've always been amazed that Colvin chose to stay dogmaticaly in the dinosaur age of steel boatbuilding and spent his life trying to hold the clock back. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi gerd > > an interesting titbit from Tom Colvin on origami. > > "Secondly the reference to Origami building. Papers were written > about this method before I was born. If the system had any merit all > builders would be using it. It is a very labor-intensive method and > thus costly" > > hmmm > > I wonder if he ever built any in origami? > > Cheers > > Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > It has reportedly been around for many years, with references > > wartime construction and patents that predate the use of the > > technique on the west coast. > > > > Greg, that is interesting - already wanted to bring this up before - > > > could we maybe collect a bit of origami history and links to > related > > techniques here? > > Of course there is stitch&glue and Van de Stadt and others, > > including Segger for his ply-dinghies I mentioned here earlier. But > > was there origami-as-we-know-it before Brent? What are the patents > > you mention? Was there ever any professional building before? Do > you > > know of other designers or boats, that are not active in this group? > > I think it would be a very good add-on to our files and > > documentation here. > > > > > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project > > http://www.justmueler.com/boats/ | 4355|4275|2004-07-05 16:28:56|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength/thickness|One idea I've thought about but never tried when angles get too stiff to bend is to stack another angle longitudinal on top of an existing stringer after the hull is pulled together.This would greatly increase their stiffness. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Charles I have been working for some time on a similar project . I have purchased study plans from Bruce Roberts for a 60ft cat in aluminium which he said could be used as a basis for a cat in steel and I have much more to offer . there is a 50 steel cat by Bowden of Australia max knots 7 and "steel magnolia "is for sale , I contacted the vendors for figures , drawings ect without luck . there are two excellent sites if you wish to study hull shapes . mv equinox and mv solstice in Scotland .I have found a co making steel cat trawlers who state their hulls will do 25 knots without nuclear power . I also must reply to Gerd who was looking for hull shapes I have them "too carefully filed" on my computer , many of the worlds boat designers have something in common - appalling manners when contacted re steel cats , replies have varied from ridicule to " is it Patrick's day already " to you could not pay me to undertake such a project my career would end well maybe if you paid me enough " . I have an interest in aviation and I heard many highly qualified experts ridicule airbus for their little winglets and their sound and fuel savings for almost a decade and now you cannot get a plane without them . if you want T frames weld two angles together to form a t . regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles Leblanc > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 6:48 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > I have not read the "Element of boat strength" yet but I can give a > few comments. > > Small "T" frames are really uncommon for any boat. I know that you > can get small aluminum "T" extrusions but that would be limited to > the aluminum hull. > > Larger boats will have fabricated "T" beams but that is for > supporting the main structure. Usually these are located on 25+ > meters boat and are use. Usually look at 600mm of dept with a 200mm > x 20mm sole. > > I guess that you could use an "I" beam, cut it in two longitudinally > and you could have two "T" beams but most of the time, you can freely > substitute a "T" beam with an Angle beam "L" of similar depth and > flange size. The only problem with the "L" beam is that it could > bend around an incline axis do you add a tripping bracket to keep it > permendicular to the plate. > > Nowadays, most of the new small boat that I have seen are using > flatbat instead of another type of profile. They are slightly larger > and heavier but they take far less time to install and to connect. > They are fairly easy to weld and can be cutted out of the same plate > you are using for the deck. > > Charles Leblanc > currently looking to build a 10m catamaran > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > wrote: > > Greg > > > > Do you mean "The Elements of Boat Strength: For Builders, > Designers, and > > Owners by: Dave Gerr"? If so, his rules call for "T" frames and I > believe > > very few boats under 45' are built this way. > > > > If not Gerr's book could you be more specific? I have never seen a > rule that > > uses flat bar frames, be they transverse or longitudinal. I would > love to > > find such. The closest I have found was a listing of common > practice for > > alloy boats, from the "Metal Boat Society". > > > > > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ge@e... [mailto:ge@e...] > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 3:01 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > Kerr - Boat Strengths - is a handy reference and covers FG as well. > > > > g > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Courtney Thomas" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 9:18 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > Intriguing stuff. > > > > > > Where can scantling rules from ABS be found ? Is ABS = American > Bureau > > > of Shipping ? > > > > > > What "simplified version of rules" do you recommend ? > > > > > > I assume the application of these rules is not valid for > fiberglass > > > boats else fatigue lifetimes could presumably be reasonably > estimated > > > and I've never seen any such allusion. Hopefully that's wrong. > > > > > > Again appreciatively, > > > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > > Origami hulls are rigid because of their tortured ends. > However, this > > does not supply them with magical strength. Sandwich > > > > construction is also very rigid, but must be carefully designed > to > > provide adequate strength. > > > > > > > > The strength of an origami hulls can be confirmed by applying > the > > scantling rules from ABS or similar for longitudinally framed > > > > boats. Simplified versions of these scantlings can be found in > yacht > > design references. Typically you take the vessel > > > > displacement, draft, beam, length, and designed service, and > the use a > > lookup table to find an appropriate mix of hull thickness > > and > > > > framing schedule for a given material. The thinner the hull, > the more > > framing required. The thicker the hull, the less > > framing. > > > > The less transverse framing, the more longitudinal framing. > The more > > transverse framing, the less longitudinal framing. > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall > strength > > relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than > a steel > > boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > boat > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. The scantling > rules > > provide a means to confirm the strength of the structure, > > and > > > > its fatigue lifetime, without relying on assumptions that may > well be > > false. > > > > > > > > An origami hull built to ABS or equivalent will typically be as > strong > > as the original. The framing schedule and hull thickness > > of > > > > the original can be applied in reverse to the lookup tables to > further > > confirm this, and adjustments made if the original was > > built > > > > over strong for a specific purpose. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > >> > > > >>Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > > >>understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design > to be > > > >>built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you > find the > > > >>proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > >>strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls > are > > > >>strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that > a given > > > >>hull was as strong as the original design. > > > >> > > > >>I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, > but I'm > > > >>not seeing it. > > > >> > > > >>Thanks for a pointer. > > > >> > > > >>Bruce > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > s/v Mutiny > > > Rhodes Bounty II > > > lying Oriental, NC > > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > 9/D=gr > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1088967773/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 > ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > > > > > 504.jp > > g> > > > > > > > > M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=groups/S= > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=625538806> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4356|4275|2004-07-05 16:33:40|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy sturated or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any questions. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick skull. :). The difference between material strength and engineered > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for an > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no easy > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with lighter framing than older designs. > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have the same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with equivalent strength, without using any lookup tables. > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have seen it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter than alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in this way. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Casling" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for some time. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ge@e... > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > boat > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and think I > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull design to be > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you find the > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls are > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure that a given > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, but I'm > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4357|4275|2004-07-05 17:21:19|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength/thickness|That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less than a steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the steel sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a fair basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: 1/4" steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer let's first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think you'll find that wood is comparable. Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 ft. Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of your choice here). - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy sturated > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any questions. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > skull. :). The difference between material strength and engineered > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for an > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no easy > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have the > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with equivalent > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have seen > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter than > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in this > way. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Casling" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for some > time. Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ge@e... > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > boat > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > think I > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > design to be > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you > find the > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls > are > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > that a given > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, > but I'm > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ------------ > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4358|4257|2004-07-05 17:38:02|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Brent - I see what you mean - but the keel was not what I would call "high aspect" as you would see that today on GRP yachts, it was a steel box-type thing, filled with lead and covered concrete I believe. The boat, if I remember right was a Sigma, and the keel was of very reasonable dimensions, sort of modern steel cruising hull as they were designed in the eighties, flat V - but the keel probably still quite a bit narrower and shorter than on your designs. Although, to define a keel profile by the fact that it is or not slotted in... :-) I guess I would specify my keel profile and aspect ratio for performance and/or cruising program, and then decide how to properly fix it. Of course... easy talking for me, Yago hasn't got any keel ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Am I right in assuming that this was a high aspect ratio keel with > minimum length and width at the attachement point of the keel to hull? > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Good Point, Greg. > > > > Literally the ONLY structure failure I have personally ever come > > across on a steel hull (and I have seen some very badly built > > boats...) was when a boat ran aground off Sable d'Olonnes in the > > Biscay and left pounding there in heavy swell overnight. The > > owner/builder had insisted on welding his keel to the plating, > > instead of slotting into the skin and welding to the structure the > > way we all did. > > > > When he got there in the morning, hull and keel were cleanly > > separated along a line running in the bottom plate, parallel to the > > weld at a distance of about 15mm. > > > > The hull itself (skin on stringers supported by frames) had filled > > up and taken a lot of beating all night, the mass of water trapped > > inside acting like a hammer when coming down, bent and dented > beyond > > recognition, but was still intact, no seams split, no holes > anywhere. > > > > > > Gerd > > > > the YAGO Project > > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through > the > > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing > > is strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the > > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading > > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended > for > > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by > > removing the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is > > hard > > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > > framing in the keel area. > > > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, > and > > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not > > form puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks > > installed over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve > > of the > > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or > from > > the > > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > > aspect > > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Greg, > > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do > you > > stop > > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4359|4275|2004-07-05 17:44:57|Gerd|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Jeff - and I forgot: I can see no way whatsoever to make a precut frames-AND-plate-kit work. Precut frames, yes, precut plates only,for Van de Stadt or Ogiami, also ok, but in spite a lot of experience in traditional overhead building on jig I do not think I could fit precut plates onto a structure I have set up myself and worked, cut, welded and walked on for weeks before bringing up the computer-cut plates. That will quite simply never fit. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats under 60 > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > Brent swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > wrote: > > Gerd, > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not synonymous > with > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with the > origami > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come back in > and fit > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > install > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) is > that the > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > plating then to > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > savings > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > drafting > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > electronic > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the steel > supplier > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > material. > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > completed boat > > discussions well. > > > > Jeff | 4360|4275|2004-07-05 19:36:04|Mike|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Spencer: When I first read the post suggesting that wood had a greater strength than steel, my initial reaction was to ponder what the "writer" meant by strength. It would seem to me that we are considering the material's impact strength(ultimate energy resistance), Hardness, ductility & elasticity, when discussing a boat's ability to "survive" striking containers, rocks, etc.. While I would agree that wood AS A MATERIAL "gives" when struck by a hard object, the use of frames would reduce this ability to "give". furthermore, the fibre composition of most woods will separate & fracture at a lower elongation percentage than mild steel. Then again, we all know that wood, metal, fibreglass(FRP-for the Brits) are all tried & true materials for boatbuilding. Those whom only subscribe to one of the aforementioned materials are, in my opinion, "missing the boat". I've owned wood & fibreglass boats and have few complaints with structural quality. I have navigated steel ships as long as 155 feet and "thumped" a few lochs & docks along the way. Meanwhile, Alex Christie quietly burns rod on a vessel that the naysayers may feel will never float. I, however, think that his boat will outlive all of us, as the "ISLAND COMMANDER", a local steel-hulled(riveted) workboat survived my great-grandfather and grandfather & will survive my father and, little doubt, myself. Regards, Mike P.S. I have stretched wood & metal specimens and there is no comparison; steel "stretches" much more than wood, before fracturing. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less than a > steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the steel > sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a fair > basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That > means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: 1/4" > steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer let's > first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think > you'll find that wood is comparable. > > Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 ft. > Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of your > choice here). > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy sturated > > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any questions. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > > skull. :). The difference between material strength and engineered > > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for an > > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no easy > > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have the > > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with equivalent > > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have seen > > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter > than > > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in this > > way. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Michael Casling" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for > some > > time. Michael > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: ge@e... > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall > > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger > than > > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > > boat > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > > think I > > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > > design to be > > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do > you > > find the > > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these > hulls > > are > > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > > that a given > > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or > something, > > but I'm > > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- --- > -- > > ------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4361|4275|2004-07-05 19:47:51|Mike|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Gerd: What amazed me most about the "origami" method was the speed of construction. Bruce Robert's web-site convinced me that I would not choose his method due to the hours required to assemble all of those little pieces of metal, the added weight of all of those "miles" of required welds and the rumour floating about that the parts in his kits rarely fit together well. But, I won't scoff at those whom choose to go that route, "to each his own". Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Jeff - and I forgot: I can see no way whatsoever to make a precut > frames-AND-plate-kit work. Precut frames, yes, precut plates > only,for Van de Stadt or Ogiami, also ok, but in spite a lot of > experience in traditional overhead building on jig I do not think I > could fit precut plates onto a structure I have set up myself and > worked, cut, welded and walked on for weeks before bringing up the > computer-cut plates. That will quite simply never fit. > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > > > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats under > 60 > > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > > Brent swain > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > > wrote: > > > Gerd, > > > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not > synonymous > > with > > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with > the > > origami > > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come back > in > > and fit > > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > > install > > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) > is > > that the > > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > > plating then to > > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > > savings > > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > > drafting > > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > > electronic > > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the > steel > > supplier > > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > > material. > > > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > > completed boat > > > discussions well. > > > > > > Jeff | 4362|4257|2004-07-05 19:51:32|Ben Tucker|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Hi Saw Photos of a freinds steel boat (Roberts 375?)that broached and hit the bottom of a bar while surfing over it. The whole hull deflected enough to push up the interior around the back of the keel and the keel to hull weld split for about 6 inches near the back of the keel. Another boat I saw had fatigue cracking around the weld joining the back of the keel to the hull. He fixed it by welding in a rounded Gusset. Maybe this is because the front of keels are normally abit more rounded and slope into the hull at a kinder angle, mast steps and bulkheads also help stiffen this area, the back ends of most keels are sharp chisel like points with a much narrower base and often are not as well reinforced? Gerd has the right idea! Cheers Ben| 4363|4275|2004-07-05 20:23:49|Ben Tucker|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Hi I helped a freind building a 45 foot Payne design. He calculated that it would save him 6 months to get all the peices precut. Aud$30,000 later the jigsaw puzzle arived. Most of the framing fitted together well But alot of the plating didn't. He got a plasma cutter and `Adusted` it all himself. To be fair the boat was not designed with NC cutting in mind and It was a third party who did the NC files on a tight budget. An earlier boat he helped build (A Radford 42) had NC frames And decks with a hand plated round bilge hull. Everything fitted perfectly. The idea of just assembling a boat seems nice, no grinding plate or oxy cutting, no carefull measuring and then cutting it wrong! just the fun stuff of welding and peicing together a jigsaw of metal parts. Origami sounds even more fun. How about NC origami!! Can a DXF file be used for NC cutting? cheers Ben| 4364|4275|2004-07-05 21:37:39|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Ben, Who did the design work & cutting on the second, i.e. successful, boat ? Thank you, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hi > > I helped a freind building a 45 foot Payne design. He calculated that > it would save him 6 months to get all the peices precut. Aud$30,000 > later the jigsaw puzzle arived. Most of the framing fitted together > well But alot of the plating didn't. He got a plasma cutter and > `Adusted` it all himself. > > To be fair the boat was not designed with NC cutting in mind and It > was a third party who did the NC files on a tight budget. An earlier > boat he helped build (A Radford 42) had NC frames And decks with a > hand plated round bilge hull. Everything fitted perfectly. > > The idea of just assembling a boat seems nice, no grinding plate or > oxy cutting, no carefull measuring and then cutting it wrong! just > the fun stuff of welding and peicing together a jigsaw of metal > parts. Origami sounds even more fun. How about NC origami!! > > Can a DXF file be used for NC cutting? > > cheers > > Ben > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4365|4365|2004-07-05 22:02:03|Glen|Cat hull material|O.K. So I am planning on building a cat from steel.....Yes, I'm Crazy but thats another thread. I like the idea of it being oragami in design but what I am wondering is how thick would the steel have to be for the hulls of a boat approx. 40 feet in length? Then the next question would be what would you build the bridgedeck from ? Thinner material with more of a framework for strength and support ? Ideas? Glen| 4366|4275|2004-07-05 22:39:17|Ben Tucker|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Hi Courtney Im pretty sure Graham Radford did it, see the link for photos of the actual boat http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn061/dsn06101.html Notice the keel stucture. Also a good way to get the lead low with the flaring scheel-ish keel. The Boat used 4mm plate for the hull but Arty said he would never build a round bilge boat again! I heard that the bare hull and deck sold for around the Aud$50,000 mark. Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Ben, > > Who did the design work & cutting on the second, i.e. successful, boat ? > > Thank you, > Courtney > > > > Ben Tucker wrote: > > > Hi > > > > I helped a freind building a 45 foot Payne design. He calculated that > > it would save him 6 months to get all the peices precut. Aud$30,000 > > later the jigsaw puzzle arived. Most of the framing fitted together > > well But alot of the plating didn't. He got a plasma cutter and > > `Adusted` it all himself. > > > > To be fair the boat was not designed with NC cutting in mind and It > > was a third party who did the NC files on a tight budget. An earlier > > boat he helped build (A Radford 42) had NC frames And decks with a > > hand plated round bilge hull. Everything fitted perfectly. > > > > The idea of just assembling a boat seems nice, no grinding plate or > > oxy cutting, no carefull measuring and then cutting it wrong! just > > the fun stuff of welding and peicing together a jigsaw of metal > > parts. Origami sounds even more fun. How about NC origami!! > > > > Can a DXF file be used for NC cutting? > > > > cheers > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4367|4292|2004-07-05 22:53:20|Ben Tucker|Re: lead water pipes|Sounds like you may be able to get lots of cheap leap pipe for ballast soon! you should incourage all your councils to dispose of this dangeous stuff. used to cast all sorts of lead keels for model yachts when I was a kid, bare feet and a aluminuim teapot on a rickety gas cooker. Guess I was lucky! Or maybe it just expains why I talk to myself! Ben| 4368|4275|2004-07-06 00:40:54|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hull strength/thickness|In that you said that everything fit well, why was Arty displeased with the outcome of his effort such that he would "not build a round bilge boat again" ? Thanks, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > Hi Courtney > > Im pretty sure Graham Radford did it, see the link for photos of the > actual boat > http://www.radford-yacht.com/dsn061/dsn06101.html > > Notice the keel stucture. Also a good way to get the lead low with > the flaring scheel-ish keel. The Boat used 4mm plate for the hull > but Arty said he would never build a round bilge boat again! > > I heard that the bare hull and deck sold for around the Aud$50,000 > mark. > > Cheers > > Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > >>Ben, >> >>Who did the design work & cutting on the second, i.e. successful, >> > boat ? > >>Thank you, >>Courtney >> >> >> >>Ben Tucker wrote: >> >> >>>Hi >>> >>>I helped a freind building a 45 foot Payne design. He calculated >>> > that > >>>it would save him 6 months to get all the peices precut. >>> > Aud$30,000 > >>>later the jigsaw puzzle arived. Most of the framing fitted >>> > together > >>>well But alot of the plating didn't. He got a plasma cutter and >>>`Adusted` it all himself. >>> >>>To be fair the boat was not designed with NC cutting in mind and >>> > It > >>>was a third party who did the NC files on a tight budget. An >>> > earlier > >>>boat he helped build (A Radford 42) had NC frames And decks with >>> > a > >>>hand plated round bilge hull. Everything fitted perfectly. >>> >>>The idea of just assembling a boat seems nice, no grinding plate >>> > or > >>>oxy cutting, no carefull measuring and then cutting it wrong! >>> > just > >>>the fun stuff of welding and peicing together a jigsaw of metal >>>parts. Origami sounds even more fun. How about NC origami!! >>> >>>Can a DXF file be used for NC cutting? >>> >>>cheers >>> >>>Ben >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>s/v Mutiny >>Rhodes Bounty II >>lying Oriental, NC >>WDB5619 >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4369|4275|2004-07-06 00:59:28|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|You've have wrongly assumed that because steel has greater impact resistance than wood, it must be stronger in column. It is simple to demonstrate this is wrong, by changing how you use the hammer.: Take an 8 foot long, wooden 4x4, and stand it vertical. Drop a steel weight on top of the wooden post. See how much weight it takes before the wooden post starts to buckle. Now, replace the 4x4 with an 8 foot long piece of rebar, that weighs the same as a 4x4. Drop a weight on top of the re-bar. It will typically start to buckle at a much lower weight, and will typically go out of column and collapse long before the wooden post. If you repeatedly hit the rebar with enough weight to make it buckle slightly, it will typically fatigue and fail long before the wooden post hit with the same weight. The only way to make solid steel as strong as solid wood in column, is to change the sectional shape of the steel, so that it is no longer a uniform solid. However, if you also change the shape of the wood, it will now be again stronger in column than the steel for the weight. Thus, if you want a mast that someone can beat on with a hammer, build it out of steel. If you want a mast that can stand up under load, you can build it stronger in wood for the weight. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:33 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy sturated > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any questions. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > skull. :). The difference between material strength and engineered > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for an > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no easy > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have the > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with equivalent > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have seen > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter than > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in this > way. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Casling" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for some > time. Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ge@e... > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger than > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > boat > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > think I > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > design to be > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do you > find the > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these hulls > are > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > that a given > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or something, > but I'm > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------ > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4370|4257|2004-07-06 00:59:29|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|It is a mistake to assume that designers and builders add structure to a boat because they are somehow stupid or ignorant. The Section Modulus is the fundamental measure of the strength of an object based on its shape. SM is the heart of the scantling rules for ABS and similar. It is shape that determines the scantlings for each material. Until you have calculated SM, and compared the hull with industry standards, you are simply guessing that a boat will be strong enough. If the boat has substantially less framing that would be typical of boats built to a rule, and the boats are the same approximate shape, size and displacement, this assumption is quite likely wrong. A boat with a low SM may well survive a grounding. The reason it survived was because the boats built to a rule are even stronger. Assuming ABS is wrong, and the weaker boat is adequate, is not reaonable given the body of evidence behind ABS. Anecdotal evidence is not a reliable way to design boats. It is evidence of failures, but it is not reliable as evidence of success. Human nature is to embellish a story in the telling, and I've spent enough time swapping tales with Godfrey to know he is no less human than the next person. I've been ashore in my dinghy many times on the outside of Baja, because it is one of the great beachcombing locations in the world. Just about everything afloat seems to find itself washed up in Baja, including on this occasion, "the Goof". In the exposed areas, the bottom is sandy and very flat, the weather typically calm, and the surf only breaks heavily out deep. Typically a boat would be driven quickly into the shallows, like the abundant material washed up ashore, where it would fill with sand, and be next to impossible to get off without a tug. This is what I understand happened. It took 16 days to arrange a tow and dig the boat out. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the depth of > the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank > hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of the > keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and > keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no floors or > tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a west > coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in such > proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on paper, > or theory.. > Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste their > time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding of > the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing is > strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by removing > the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > framing in the keel area. > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not form > puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks installed > over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of > the > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from > the > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > aspect > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > wrote: > > > > Greg, > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you > stop > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4371|4275|2004-07-06 01:24:24|Ben Tucker|Re: Hull strength/thickness|hi Courtney The deck and cabin plates all fitted nicely but the round bilge section was hand plated and rolled on a large rolling machine. The time it took to custom fit and roll each sheet to the exact compound curvature around the midships bilge area put him off building in true round bilge (Radius Chine sounds easier and Origami+Radius chine seems like a good plan if you want a rounded hull). After helping on the Radford he then built a multichine Alan Payne 'Koonya' and comparing the two said that it was much harder to build the Radford. Thats about all I know about the Radford, I must say the details of the constuction were very impressive, and Radford designs have a good repution down here (except the ugly cabins and windows!). If you want more infomation I can give Arty a ring. Cheers Ben| 4372|4275|2004-07-06 07:50:45|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Thank you so much for your considerate replies. Like all Aussies I've ever dealt with, your cordiality is a pleasure. Best regards, Courtney Ben Tucker wrote: > hi Courtney > > The deck and cabin plates all fitted nicely but the round bilge > section was hand plated and rolled on a large rolling machine. The > time it took to custom fit and roll each sheet to the exact compound > curvature around the midships bilge area put him off building in true > round bilge (Radius Chine sounds easier and Origami+Radius chine > seems like a good plan if you want a rounded hull). > > After helping on the Radford he then built a multichine Alan > Payne 'Koonya' and comparing the two said that it was much harder to > build the Radford. > > Thats about all I know about the Radford, I must say the details of > the constuction were very impressive, and Radford designs have a good > repution down here (except the ugly cabins and windows!). If you want > more infomation I can give Arty a ring. > > Cheers > > Ben > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4373|4373|2004-07-06 08:03:49|Ben Tucker|Stainless Steel chainplates|Hi all I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would you use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on steel? At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they are never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all that lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, wonderfull stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade boxes out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so it must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that won't turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for my basic Tigging Certificate!! Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage of the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because there the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 in materials alone). Goodnight from Aus Ben| 4374|4373|2004-07-06 11:32:00|denis buggy|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|dear Ben if you look at a fifth wheel coupling on your nearest truck, it is where the small pin on the trailer must take all the stress , you will find it is bolted with high tensile bolts . a 22 mm high tensile bolt which is used to hold the trusses of your nearest factory building together is stress rated to 25 tons I am told . do not weld dissimilar metals and hope it is a good weld . regards Denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Tucker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Stainless Steel chainplates Hi all I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would you use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on steel? At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they are never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all that lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, wonderfull stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade boxes out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so it must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that won't turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for my basic Tigging Certificate!! Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage of the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because there the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 in materials alone). Goodnight from Aus Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4375|4375|2004-07-06 12:48:06|Phil S.|In Vancouver|Hey Gang: Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find out how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an Origami yacht looks like in person. I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If anyoneknows of a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing close by please let me know. I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. Best regards Phil| 4376|4275|2004-07-06 13:01:02|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Mike, Yes, I agree. My point was only to dispell what seemed like an unfair comparison between the two materials. I often see postings in this group espousing the magical qualities of certain materials with out any consideration of application. To me, certain materials are more suited to certain applications, hence one is not universally better than the other. For example is you want to build a race boat, you're better off with GRP than steel. If you want to build a trawler that lays on the rock, steel is better. Greg makes a good point of this in his comparison of steel and wood masts. Like anything else, its best to use the best tool for the task in front of you. You can't use a hammer to lossen a bolt (well not very easily). As the engineering properties of most materials are well documented, it seems a straight forward task to choose the correct material for whatever application. But I think we agree on all of this. Then there's the argument of which material is easiest to work with... - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Spencer: > When I first read the post suggesting that wood had a greater > strength than steel, my initial reaction was to ponder what > the "writer" meant by strength. It would seem to me that we are > considering the material's impact strength(ultimate energy > resistance), Hardness, ductility & elasticity, when discussing a > boat's ability to "survive" striking containers, rocks, etc.. While > I would agree that wood AS A MATERIAL "gives" when struck by a hard > object, the use of frames would reduce this ability to "give". > furthermore, the fibre composition of most woods will separate & > fracture at a lower elongation percentage than mild steel. Then > again, we all know that wood, metal, fibreglass(FRP-for the Brits) > are all tried & true materials for boatbuilding. Those whom only > subscribe to one of the aforementioned materials are, in my > opinion, "missing the boat". I've owned wood & fibreglass boats and > have few complaints with structural quality. I have navigated steel > ships as long as 155 feet and "thumped" a few lochs & docks along > the way. Meanwhile, Alex Christie quietly burns rod on a vessel that > the naysayers may feel will never float. I, however, think that his > boat will outlive all of us, as the "ISLAND COMMANDER", a local > steel-hulled(riveted) workboat survived my great-grandfather and > grandfather & will survive my father and, little doubt, myself. > Regards, > Mike > P.S. I have stretched wood & metal specimens and there is no > comparison; steel "stretches" much more than wood, before fracturing. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less > than a > > steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the > steel > > sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a > fair > > basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That > > means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: > 1/4" > > steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer > let's > > first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think > > you'll find that wood is comparable. > > > > Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 > ft. > > Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of > your > > choice here). > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of > steel > > > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy > sturated > > > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any > questions. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > > > skull. :). The difference between material strength and > engineered > > > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > > > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for > an > > > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > > > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no > easy > > > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > > > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > > > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > > > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have > the > > > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with > equivalent > > > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have > seen > > > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter > > than > > > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in > this > > > way. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Michael Casling" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for > > some > > > time. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: ge@e... > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their > overall > > > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used > in > > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger > > than > > > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > > > boat > > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > Origami Magic > > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > > > think I > > > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > > > design to be > > > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how > do > > you > > > find the > > > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these > > hulls > > > are > > > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make > sure > > > that a given > > > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or > > something, > > > but I'm > > > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > -- > > > ------------ > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4377|4373|2004-07-06 13:09:53|Gerd|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|Ben, there is another solution: cut a slice of SS tube the thickness of your chain plate and weld it into the hole. Like that you have a non structural SS padding to absorb the friction of the SS bolt inside your normal solid black steel plate, and no rust. Gerd The Yago Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear Ben if you look at a fifth wheel coupling on your nearest truck, it is where the small pin on the trailer must take all the stress , you will find it is bolted with high tensile bolts . a 22 mm high tensile bolt which is used to hold the trusses of your nearest factory building together is stress rated to 25 tons I am told . do not weld dissimilar metals and hope it is a good weld . regards Denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ben Tucker > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:03 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Stainless Steel chainplates > > > Hi all > > I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel > deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would you > use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on > steel? > > At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 > inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they are > never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all that > lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. > > By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, wonderfull > stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade boxes > out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so it > must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that won't > turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for my > basic Tigging Certificate!! > > Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage of > the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because there > the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 in > materials alone). > > Goodnight from Aus > > Ben > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4378|4375|2004-07-06 13:24:28|Michael Casling|Re: In Vancouver|Phil, you need to find your way to Horeshoe Bay and take a ferry to Nanaimo. You would not be the first furriner to stay. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] In Vancouver Hey Gang: Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find out how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an Origami yacht looks like in person. I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If anyoneknows of a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing close by please let me know. I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. Best regards Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4379|4275|2004-07-06 13:48:39|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Spencer, some of us have been politely trying to say this for some time, so I aggree with your post. There are indeed hammers made from wood, you will see carpenters using a wood mallett with a chissel, it is the appropriate tool for the job. There is wood in Australia that is tough enough to pound the heck out of a steel boat, but that is not really useful information. I think Gerr has done a more than adequate job of describing the different materials. I wood just ask if anybody is a fan of a particular material to please present your case in a reasonable manner without bashing on the other materials. It does nothing for anybodys credibility to dump on the other views or other materials. I have had a plastic boat since new in 1979 and it has provided me with excellent reliability and will likely outlast me. There are plenty of one hundred year old steel boats and just as many wood boats. They all require a special kind of care and attention. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: spencerj71 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness Mike, Yes, I agree. My point was only to dispell what seemed like an unfair comparison between the two materials. I often see postings in this group espousing the magical qualities of certain materials with out any consideration of application. To me, certain materials are more suited to certain applications, hence one is not universally better than the other. For example is you want to build a race boat, you're better off with GRP than steel. If you want to build a trawler that lays on the rock, steel is better. Greg makes a good point of this in his comparison of steel and wood masts. Like anything else, its best to use the best tool for the task in front of you. You can't use a hammer to lossen a bolt (well not very easily). As the engineering properties of most materials are well documented, it seems a straight forward task to choose the correct material for whatever application. But I think we agree on all of this. Then there's the argument of which material is easiest to work with... - Spencer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4380|4375|2004-07-06 14:54:40|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: In Vancouver|Got a few models handy if you feel like a ride on the sea bus over to N. Van. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil S." To: Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:47 AM Subject: [origamiboats] In Vancouver > Hey Gang: > Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a > unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find out > how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an Origami > yacht looks like in person. > I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If anyoneknows of > a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing close > by please let me know. > > I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. > Best regards > Phil > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4381|4275|2004-07-06 16:56:51|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Your proposed floatation test is relevant only if we are talking about rafts, not boats. Bolt a lead ballast keel and machinery to your wood and see if it still floats. Sharp rocks dont really care about stretch strength, just how hard the surface is, and how far it can stretch before breaking. You get a good compaison of surviveability on a reef if you attack first the wood, then the steel with a skilsaw. Another test is to see how far you can bend a piece of wood, then a piece of steel over your knee( the same weight if you want ) and see which cleanly breaks first. Another reef compoarison is to drive a steel nail thru a three inch piece of wood, then try to drive the same steel nail thru a piece of 1/4 inch plate , much the way a sharp rock would deal with a hull in a swell. Then try the same trick with a wooden nail. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less than a > steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the steel > sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a fair > basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That > means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: 1/4" > steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer let's > first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think > you'll find that wood is comparable. > > Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 ft. > Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of your > choice here). > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy sturated > > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any questions. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > > skull. :). The difference between material strength and engineered > > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for an > > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no easy > > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have the > > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with equivalent > > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have seen > > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter > than > > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in this > > way. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Michael Casling" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for > some > > time. Michael > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: ge@e... > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their overall > > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used in > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger > than > > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > > boat > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > > think I > > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > > design to be > > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do > you > > find the > > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these > hulls > > are > > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > > that a given > > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or > something, > > but I'm > > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- -- > -- > > ------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4382|4375|2004-07-06 17:03:45|brentswain38|Re: In Vancouver|Phil There are several of my boats in Nanaimo, at newcastle Marina and behind muddy waters pub, just south of the ferry terminal. I'm in Sidney for the rest of the week, anchored just NW of resthaven Island. Leave a mesage on my aluminium dinghy on the north side of resthaven Island, or warn me with an email if you make it over here. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Hey Gang: > Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a > unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find out > how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an Origami > yacht looks like in person. > I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If anyoneknows of > a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing close > by please let me know. > > I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. > Best regards > Phil | 4383|4375|2004-07-06 17:27:21|Mike|Re: In Vancouver|Phil: As I have previously mentioned, Dove III, a "Swain 27", is at Harbour Yacht Sales, in West Vancouver. On the weekend, I went by Shelter Island Marina and noticed several steel-hulled sailboats. Among them was one that - from a distance - looked like a "Swain". The name was Sunday Child. Give me a call if you want a ride to see any of the boats around town. I am usually home around 1430hours. The number is: 604-879-5029. Mike P.S.: Shelter Island Marina also has an excellent pub! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Hey Gang: > Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a > unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find out > how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an Origami > yacht looks like in person. > I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If anyoneknows of > a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing close > by please let me know. > > I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. > Best regards > Phil | 4384|4275|2004-07-06 17:36:58|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength/thickness|The floatation test was meant as a joke...I guess I'm not very funny. I'll try to avoid reefs who use skill saws and rocks that look like nails. Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Your proposed floatation test is relevant only if we are talking > about rafts, not boats. Bolt a lead ballast keel and machinery to > your wood and see if it still floats. > Sharp rocks dont really care about stretch strength, just how hard > the surface is, and how far it can stretch before breaking. You get a > good compaison of surviveability on a reef if you attack first the > wood, then the steel with a skilsaw. > Another test is to see how far you can bend a piece of wood, then a > piece of steel over your knee( the same weight if you want ) and see > which cleanly breaks first. > Another reef compoarison is to drive a steel nail thru a three inch > piece of wood, then try to drive the same steel nail thru a piece of > 1/4 inch plate , much the way a sharp rock would deal with a hull in > a swell. Then try the same trick with a wooden nail. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less than > a > > steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the > steel > > sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a > fair > > basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That > > means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: > 1/4" > > steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer > let's > > first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think > > you'll find that wood is comparable. > > > > Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 > ft. > > Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of > your > > choice here). > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > > > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy > sturated > > > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any > questions. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > > > skull. :). The difference between material strength and > engineered > > > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > > > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for > an > > > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > > > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no > easy > > > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > > > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > > > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > > > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have > the > > > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with > equivalent > > > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have > seen > > > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter > > than > > > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in > this > > > way. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Michael Casling" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for > > some > > > time. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: ge@e... > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their > overall > > > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used > in > > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger > > than > > > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > > > boat > > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > Origami Magic > > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > > > think I > > > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > > > design to be > > > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do > > you > > > find the > > > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these > > hulls > > > are > > > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > > > that a given > > > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or > > something, > > > but I'm > > > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > ------------ > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4385|4341|2004-07-06 17:42:49|Charles Leblanc|(no subject)|My mistake, I have found some steel "T" bars available in my area but we only use steel angled bars "L" or flatbars for our construction. The main drawback of "T" bar for marine use is that they will have a tendency to accumulate water and they will not drain as well if it installed horizontally. In my opinion, using vertical strigner defeats the purpose of the origami boatbuilding technique. I think that the proper use for the technique would be to use a thicker hull plating and to use the internal bulkheat to take the load. The stressed areas might get extra re-inforcement if there are no bulkheat located close. I am considering using a flameless construction for my hull unless I cannot achieve the level of strength needed. I am far from ready to build. Right now I am still researching the subject. I might purchase a couple of reference books to have an idea of the hull thickness required. Basically, the problem is that every calculation that I have seen does not take the plate curvature into account. We all know that a curved plate is much stronger than a flat plate but the calculation is a bit more difficult to perform. My project will be an aluminum hull for a sailing catamaran. It might even be possible to form it w/o winglets because some of the beach caramarans are built that way like the Taipan and the Tornado. Of cource I will need a much wider and taller hull. My first choice was to use the wooden cylindrical mold from Kurt Hugues however, I might get access to aluminum forming and welding in a few weeks so my choice will probably change. I might place some longitudinal strigners because I will need a higher SM around the yy axis just in front of the front crossbeam since there is alot of stress going in that area. I do not think that bucking will be a problem for me because the bottom of the hull will have a round shape with a fairly tight radius. Anyways, opinions are welcome, right now I am looking at a 27' catamaran without a bridgedeck or abobe 30' with a bridgedeck and... maybe an unstayed aluminum mast! Charles Leblanc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > Another advantage of the "T" bars is the easier access for painting > on the back sides. Considering that you can switch from Angle to T's. > of same width and thicknesses. It is true though that "T" bars are > easier to get in Europe than in the US. | 4386|4275|2004-07-06 17:49:46|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Unfortunately Spencer, all the reefs I have met have skill saws. The reef supplies the teeth and the waves the motion! But the point is that despite wood being stronger weight for weight, it is not as hard or as abrasion resistant as steel. I speak from first hand experience. My boat La Chica, went ashore during hurricane Luis (St. Martin 1995). I am still sailing her, in fact I have just repaired all the dents (and some were bad) and I never stopped sailing between then and now. I do not know of any wood (traditional construction) that went ashore and survived there. But I must say that some cold moulded boats were repairable afterwards however they were not immediately sailable as mine was. Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- From: spencerj71 [mailto:spencerj71@...] Sent: Wednesday, 7 July 2004 9:37 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness The floatation test was meant as a joke...I guess I'm not very funny. I'll try to avoid reefs who use skill saws and rocks that look like nails. Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Your proposed floatation test is relevant only if we are talking > about rafts, not boats. Bolt a lead ballast keel and machinery to > your wood and see if it still floats. > Sharp rocks dont really care about stretch strength, just how hard > the surface is, and how far it can stretch before breaking. You get a > good compaison of surviveability on a reef if you attack first the > wood, then the steel with a skilsaw. > Another test is to see how far you can bend a piece of wood, then a > piece of steel over your knee( the same weight if you want ) and see > which cleanly breaks first. > Another reef compoarison is to drive a steel nail thru a three inch > piece of wood, then try to drive the same steel nail thru a piece of > 1/4 inch plate , much the way a sharp rock would deal with a hull in > a swell. Then try the same trick with a wooden nail. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less than > a > > steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the > steel > > sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a > fair > > basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That > > means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: > 1/4" > > steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer > let's > > first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think > > you'll find that wood is comparable. > > > > Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 > ft. > > Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of > your > > choice here). > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > > > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy > sturated > > > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any > questions. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > > > skull. :). The difference between material strength and > engineered > > > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > > > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for > an > > > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > > > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no > easy > > > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > > > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > > > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > > > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have > the > > > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with > equivalent > > > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have > seen > > > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter > > than > > > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in > this > > > way. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Michael Casling" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for > > some > > > time. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: ge@e... > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their > overall > > > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used > in > > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger > > than > > > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > > > boat > > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > Origami Magic > > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > > > think I > > > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > > > design to be > > > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do > > you > > > find the > > > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these > > hulls > > > are > > > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > > > that a given > > > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or > > something, > > > but I'm > > > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > ------------ > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004| 4387|4275|2004-07-06 18:15:10|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength/thickness|I think it is generally agreed that steel is more abrasion resistant than wood, that is not the issue. If it is the issue for you or anyone else then use steel. If the issue is floatation then use wood. There are many things that affect a choice of material, to just quote the abrasion issue and avoid the floatation issue does not really help. There are benefits in all materials and short comings in all materials. As this sight is primarily about steel I chose not to bring up the rust, condensation, and floatation issues very often. I think more boats hit the coral with their keels than with the hull. The strength of the keel would then be important. But not all boats end up on the coral and not all boats sail in ice. Quite a few boats sink and it is not from hitting containers. If we only consider a single issue then I ask everyone to look in their driveway. Is the car parked there the most fuel efficient available, is it the most crash resistant available, is it the most easily recycled, or did we just purchase the cheapest belch mobile we could find and invest the difference. A coral cut on the skin can take a very long time to heel for some folks, be careful if you are trying to push your boat off. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul J. Thompson To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 3:05 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness Unfortunately Spencer, all the reefs I have met have skill saws. The reef supplies the teeth and the waves the motion! But the point is that despite wood being stronger weight for weight, it is not as hard or as abrasion resistant as steel. I speak from first hand experience. My boat La Chica, went ashore during hurricane Luis (St. Martin 1995). I am still sailing her, in fact I have just repaired all the dents (and some were bad) and I never stopped sailing between then and now. I do not know of any wood (traditional construction) that went ashore and survived there. But I must say that some cold moulded boats were repairable afterwards however they were not immediately sailable as mine was. Regards, Paul -----Original Message----- From: spencerj71 [mailto:spencerj71@...] Sent: Wednesday, 7 July 2004 9:37 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness The floatation test was meant as a joke...I guess I'm not very funny. I'll try to avoid reefs who use skill saws and rocks that look like nails. Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Your proposed floatation test is relevant only if we are talking > about rafts, not boats. Bolt a lead ballast keel and machinery to > your wood and see if it still floats. > Sharp rocks dont really care about stretch strength, just how hard > the surface is, and how far it can stretch before breaking. You get a > good compaison of surviveability on a reef if you attack first the > wood, then the steel with a skilsaw. > Another test is to see how far you can bend a piece of wood, then a > piece of steel over your knee( the same weight if you want ) and see > which cleanly breaks first. > Another reef compoarison is to drive a steel nail thru a three inch > piece of wood, then try to drive the same steel nail thru a piece of > 1/4 inch plate , much the way a sharp rock would deal with a hull in > a swell. Then try the same trick with a wooden nail. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > That doesn't seem a fair test...a wood hammer weighs much less than > a > > steel hammer and the wood sample will weigh much less than the > steel > > sample. Let's make the test fair, equal weight samples (seems a > fair > > basis for comparison in boat building) and the same hammer. That > > means the wood sample will be aroud 12 times as thick as steel: > 1/4" > > steel vs. 3" of wood. Now instead of hitting it with a hammer > let's > > first stretch and compress both samples until they yield. I think > > you'll find that wood is comparable. > > > > Final test, drop both samples into the water from a height of 10 > ft. > > Which one floats back to the surface first? (insert emoticom of > your > > choice here). > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > Wood is strong? give your head a shake. Pound on a piece of steel > > > with a wooden hammer, then pound on a piece of wood ,epoxy > sturated > > > or otherwise ,with a steel hammer. That should answer any > questions. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > It can take a heavy bat to leave any impression in a thick > > > skull. :). The difference between material strength and > engineered > > > > strength can lead the unwary into error. > > > > > > > > One of the great advances in recent times has been computer > > > design. Prior to computers, calculating the section modulus for > an > > > > object was tedious, and all but impossible except for simple > > > shapes. Thus boats were built over heavy, because there was no > easy > > > > way to take complicated shapes into account. Many 3-D design > > > programs now calculate SM as a routine part of the engineering > > > > analysis. As a result, modern ships are routinely make with > > > lighter framing than older designs. > > > > > > > > By comparing two hulls based on their SM, you can shortcut the > > > design process. If you know that two different hull shapes, with > > > > different framing schedules have the same SM, they will have > the > > > same approximate strength under load. This gives you a quick way > > > > to convert from conventional to origami, to build with > equivalent > > > strength, without using any lookup tables. > > > > > > > > Wood is a great material. For its weight, in column, I have > seen > > > it rated 2 times the strength of alloy, and 4 times the strength > > > > of steel. Laminated wood/epoxy masts are potentially lighter > > than > > > alloy for their strength. Tress are basically columns, so it > > > > should be little surprise that nature has engineered wood in > this > > > way. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Michael Casling" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 6:55 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is what some of us have been politely trying to say for > > some > > > time. Michael > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: ge@e... > > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 7:48 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boat hulls are engineered structures, and thus their > overall > > > strength relies only partially on the strength of materials used > in > > > > > construction. Thus, a plywood boat is typically stronger > > than > > > a steel boat of equivalent weight. It is a mistake to assume a > > > > boat > > > > > is strong simply because it is built in steel. > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > Origami Magic > > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Bruce C. Dillahunty" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:04 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, I'm obviously missing the obvious again :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Could somebody answer a question for me? I have read and > > > think I > > > > > > understand that it is possible to convert a framed hull > > > design to be > > > > > > built the "origami way" (at least some designs)... how do > > you > > > find the > > > > > > proper hull thickness to achieve the desired > > > > > > strength/rigidity/whatever. I know everybody says these > > hulls > > > are > > > > > > strong, and I believe that, but I would want to make sure > > > that a given > > > > > > hull was as strong as the original design. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sure there's some obvious formula for this or > > something, > > > but I'm > > > > > > not seeing it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for a pointer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > ------------ > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > > Terms > > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4388|4373|2004-07-06 20:02:05|Ben Tucker|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|Hi gerd Yes, good plan, I was also thinking of welding SS rod around the outside to stop it from getting chipped and rusting and then sending the lot off to be Hot Dip Galvanised. Just getting Lazy and thought SS would be easyier. If welding SS to mild is such an issue I might do My bow rollers/forestay atachment the same way, Save a few precious $$ as well! Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Ben, there is another solution: cut a slice of SS tube the thickness > of your chain plate and weld it into the hole. Like that you have a > non structural SS padding to absorb the friction of the SS bolt > inside your normal solid black steel plate, and no rust. > > Gerd > > The Yago Project > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > dear Ben if you look at a fifth wheel coupling on your nearest > truck, it is where the small pin on the trailer must take all the > stress , you will find it is bolted with high tensile bolts . a 22 > mm high tensile bolt which is used to hold the trusses of your > nearest factory building together is stress rated to 25 tons I am > told . do not weld dissimilar metals and hope it is a good weld . > regards Denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ben Tucker > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 1:03 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Stainless Steel chainplates > > > > > > Hi all > > > > I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel > > deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would > you > > use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on > > steel? > > > > At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 > > inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they > are > > never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all > that > > lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. > > > > By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, > wonderfull > > stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade > boxes > > out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so > it > > must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that > won't > > turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for > my > > basic Tigging Certificate!! > > > > Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage > of > > the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because > there > > the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 > in > > materials alone). > > > > Goodnight from Aus > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > ----------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4389|4375|2004-07-07 01:46:02|Phil S.|Re: In Vancouver|Brent; As of right now, I am headed over on the 8:30 Ferry. That could change but I am a cute and somewhat persuasive guy so I shouldn't have any trouble getting the group rental van to head over with. I am meeting Evan at the new castle marina when I arrive and will see how long it takes to get down to your area after that. Best Regards Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Phil > There are several of my boats in Nanaimo, at newcastle Marina and > behind muddy waters pub, just south of the ferry terminal. I'm in > Sidney for the rest of the week, anchored just NW of resthaven > Island. Leave a mesage on my aluminium dinghy on the north side of > resthaven Island, or warn me with an email if you make it over here. > Brent > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." > wrote: > > Hey Gang: > > Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a > > unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find out > > how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an Origami > > yacht looks like in person. > > I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If anyoneknows > of > > a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing > close > > by please let me know. > > > > I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. > > Best regards > > Phil | 4390|4275|2004-07-07 03:09:24|Brent Geery|Re: Hull strength/thickness|On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:15:06 -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > I think it is generally agreed that steel is more > abrasion resistant than wood, that is not the issue. On a metal boat building mailing list, I'd say it's all that matters. If I gave a damn for the advantages of wood, I would be reading a list devoted to that material. I want to hear from others about METAL BOAT BUILDING, not wood. IMO, wood is good for burning; and crushing with metal boats. :P Why don't the wood brains go and talk about wood on the appropriate lists/forums/groups, and let the metal heads (lol) get on to the business of talking about METAL, and how to best take advantage of this material. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4391|4275|2004-07-07 04:17:06|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|To date I've seen 2 complaints, but no substance in your emails. Perhaps you would be happier to follow your own recommendation and direct your emails to a group that deals with complaints? The comparison with between wood and steel is valid, because it points out a mistake people make in confusing the material strength of steel with the engineered strength of boats. For example, if a steel and plywood boat are made to the same weight, the plywood boat would be more likely to crush the steel boat, than the reverse (crush, not cut). Here is a test. Take a piece of 4'x8' plywood, 3/4" thick. Lay it lengthwise between two saw horses, and jump on it. You can do this just about forever. Now, take a piece of 4'x8' steel, 1/16" thick. It will weigh about the same as the plywood. Do the same test. Unlikely it will even hold your weight, and will deform quickly if you start jumping on it. A 3/16" hull is 3 times thicker. However, for every foot of immersion, the ocean exerts 2300 lbs of pressure on our 4x8 sheet -- more than 10 times the weight of a person -- and lots of boats have plating immersed more than 1 foot. This does not even begin to account for the dynamic forces in a seaway and from breaking seas. Conical sections are strong because of their curvature, but their strength is at right angles to the curve. In the direction of the curve, their strength is low. (the cross section is not curved in this direction - it is straight!!) Put it under load, and rather than co-operate and try and take the load, the steel deflects out of the way to avoid the load. This is great to prevent puncture, but poor when you want to avoid fatigue. Stand a piece of sheet metal on the ground, so that the top and bottom edges are curved, and the sides straight. It will take a fantastic weight to collapse the metal. Now, change the curvature, so that the top and bottom are straight, and the sides are curved. The sheet metal now will support almost no weight without buckling. Steel is flexible, and typically quite thin because of the weight. This make it easy to push the steel out of column when it is in compression, as happens along the axis of the plating in a seaway. The purpose of framing is to prevent the steel from acting to avoid the load. Framing forces the steel to take the load in a controlled fashion, thus minimizing fatigue, avoiding the need for heavier plating. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Geery" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:15:06 -0700, Michael Casling > wrote: > > > I think it is generally agreed that steel is more > > abrasion resistant than wood, that is not the issue. > > On a metal boat building mailing list, I'd say it's all that matters. > If I gave a damn for the advantages of wood, I would be reading a list > devoted to that material. I want to hear from others about METAL BOAT > BUILDING, not wood. IMO, wood is good for burning; and crushing with > metal boats. :P > > Why don't the wood brains go and talk about wood on the appropriate > lists/forums/groups, and let the metal heads (lol) get on to the > business of talking about METAL, and how to best take advantage of > this material. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4392|4275|2004-07-07 06:58:52|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Re: Hull strength/thickness|"On a metal boat building mailing list, I'd say it's all that matters." "Why don't the wood brains go and talk about wood on the appropriate lists/forums/groups, and let the metal heads (lol) get on to the business of talking about METAL, and how to best take advantage of this material." Two minor points here, the title of this forum is 'Origamiboats'. While one way of building origamiboats is with metal the beaic tenets of Origami boatbuilding apply to wood, or composite panel construction equally well. I don't see where the title says, "Metal only- all others bugger off". I would also have thought that as some people seem to come to this site as a place to evaluate alternative methods of boat building and that a fair and open discussion of the various boat building meterials would be germane to that constituency. That said, in the past when I have posted numerical comparasons of various boat building materials in terms of bending, flexure, impact resistance and abrasion, showing that on a strength to weight basis, steel does not do all that well, these numbers have been dismissed by saying, "This is not a science lab". And when I posted information gleaned from a Naval Academy study of impact resistance of various materials used in yachts in which a 500 lb ram with a sharp point (in other words the same steel hammer) was realeased with equal force on equal weight panels constructed of a variety of materials, and again since steel did not do all that well on a strength to weight basis being more easily pierced than the glass composite or cold molded wood panels, that study was also dismissed as being done in a lab. So I guess that you are right that this forum is not interested in a fair and open discussion of the various boat building meterials. Respectfully, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4393|4275|2004-07-07 07:39:36|Brent Geery|Re: Hull strength/thickness|On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:58:26 -0400, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" wrote: > Two minor points here, the title of this forum is 'Origamiboats'. While > one way of building origamiboats is with metal the beaic tenets of Origami > boatbuilding apply to wood, or composite panel construction equally well. Looking at the title page of this list's homepage, I quote: "Origamiboats forum has been created to explore all aspects of a unique and revolutionary method of building frameless steel sailboats. The technique is known as "folded steel" boatbuilding, or "origami steel" boatbuilding." I just think we are getting further and further away from practical info on origami boatbuilding, and constantly delving into theoreticals that really don't matter in the real world. I'm probably over-sensitive, as I read all 4000+ message archive in a week, and the trend from "good" practical info to noise is very evident when reading the messages in this compressed time. > I don't see where the title says, "Metal only- all others bugger off". I > would also have thought that as some people seem to come to this site as > a place to evaluate alternative methods of boat building and that a fair > and open discussion of the various boat building meterials would be > germane to that constituency. A list has to have some focus, or it ends up not serving any real purpose for anyone. That's all I'm concerned with. Of course, these replies don't help this situation. :) > That said, in the past when I have posted numerical comparasons of > various boat building materials in terms of bending, flexure, impact > resistance and abrasion, showing that on a strength to weight basis, > steel does not do all that well, these numbers have been dismissed > by saying, "This is not a science lab". I think it comes down to choices. Someone coming here has (probably) already decided they want a metal boat (and probably choosing steel,) and is investigating the easiest and/or cheapest way to build one. > And when I posted information gleaned from a Naval Academy study of > impact resistance of various materials used in yachts in which a 500 > lb ram with a sharp point (in other words the same steel hammer) was > released with equal force on equal weight panels constructed of a variety > of materials, and again since steel did not do all that well on a strength > to weight basis being more easily pierced than the glass composite or cold > molded wood panels, that study was also dismissed as being done in a lab. > So I guess that you are right that this forum is not interested in a fair > and open discussion of the various boat building materials. What do you expect the information to do? Convince us all to stop building metal boats, and spend X times longer and X times more expensive building a plastic or wooden boat? What use is this information, when steel is all we (royal we) can afford to build in? Again, the difference between practical and theoretical information. Useful practical information on building a stronger/lighter/cheaper metal boats in the Origami style is helpful, but calling Brent's designs "dangerous", "cheap", "built of junk", ect. (as Greg has done in past messages- I can post quotes if needed) does nothing to help others succeed in their goal of building a safe and economical boat. IMO, of course. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4394|4275|2004-07-07 09:43:32|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|News to me - please supply the quotes. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Geery" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:58:26 -0400, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > wrote: > > > Two minor points here, the title of this forum is 'Origamiboats'. While > > one way of building origamiboats is with metal the beaic tenets of Origami > > boatbuilding apply to wood, or composite panel construction equally well. > > Looking at the title page of this list's homepage, I quote: > "Origamiboats forum has been created to explore all aspects of a > unique and revolutionary method of building frameless steel sailboats. > The technique is known as "folded steel" boatbuilding, or "origami > steel" boatbuilding." > > I just think we are getting further and further away from practical > info on origami boatbuilding, and constantly delving into theoreticals > that really don't matter in the real world. > > I'm probably over-sensitive, as I read all 4000+ message archive in a > week, and the trend from "good" practical info to noise is very > evident when reading the messages in this compressed time. > > > I don't see where the title says, "Metal only- all others bugger off". I > > would also have thought that as some people seem to come to this site as > > a place to evaluate alternative methods of boat building and that a fair > > and open discussion of the various boat building meterials would be > > germane to that constituency. > > A list has to have some focus, or it ends up not serving any real > purpose for anyone. That's all I'm concerned with. Of course, these > replies don't help this situation. :) > > > That said, in the past when I have posted numerical comparasons of > > various boat building materials in terms of bending, flexure, impact > > resistance and abrasion, showing that on a strength to weight basis, > > steel does not do all that well, these numbers have been dismissed > > by saying, "This is not a science lab". > > I think it comes down to choices. Someone coming here has (probably) > already decided they want a metal boat (and probably choosing steel,) > and is investigating the easiest and/or cheapest way to build one. > > > And when I posted information gleaned from a Naval Academy study of > > impact resistance of various materials used in yachts in which a 500 > > lb ram with a sharp point (in other words the same steel hammer) was > > released with equal force on equal weight panels constructed of a variety > > of materials, and again since steel did not do all that well on a strength > > to weight basis being more easily pierced than the glass composite or cold > > molded wood panels, that study was also dismissed as being done in a lab. > > So I guess that you are right that this forum is not interested in a fair > > and open discussion of the various boat building materials. > > What do you expect the information to do? Convince us all to stop > building metal boats, and spend X times longer and X times more > expensive building a plastic or wooden boat? What use is this > information, when steel is all we (royal we) can afford to build in? > Again, the difference between practical and theoretical information. > > Useful practical information on building a stronger/lighter/cheaper > metal boats in the Origami style is helpful, but calling Brent's > designs "dangerous", "cheap", "built of junk", ect. (as Greg has done > in past messages- I can post quotes if needed) does nothing to help > others succeed in their goal of building a safe and economical boat. > IMO, of course. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4395|4275|2004-07-07 10:59:09|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength/thickness|I partly agree with a part of what you said, it must be a pain for metal heads, your words, to have to put up with wood brains, again your words. But isn't life just like that where most things that we think and do are countered by others that think differently. I have discovered that metal boats do involve the use of wood and foam. For you abrasion may be all that matters, for others floatation, whatever the material may be all that matters. Only a very small number of boats will ever be near coral yet all boats are required to float all the time. Some of us own boats of different material types. Aluminum seems to be an acceptable topic for discussion. The discussion on materials would likely go smoother if the facts were presented and the rhetoric was subdued. " Wood is for burning and crushing " would be an example. It does not lead to credibility. Most of us alternate material type thinkers do frequent other sites, where any material can be discussed in a fair manner. There is good information to be learned from this site about boats in general. Have you read Brent's book? His book and " Metal Corrosion in Boats " are worth while reading even if you have an alternate material boat. Do you have a cardboard model of one of Brent's boats ? The hull shape could be applicable to other materials and may be a point of discussion no matter what your preferance. For accurate information on materials I will go to David Gerr. Please note not one bad comment about steel or any material and I believe if you check the archives that has always been the case. Do you still want me to Leave? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Brent Geery To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness On a metal boat building mailing list, I'd say it's all that matters. If I gave a damn for the advantages of wood, I would be reading a list devoted to that material. I want to hear from others about METAL BOAT BUILDING, not wood. IMO, wood is good for burning; and crushing with metal boats. :P Why don't the wood brains go and talk about wood on the appropriate lists/forums/groups, and let the metal heads (lol) get on to the business of talking about METAL, and how to best take advantage of this material. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4396|4373|2004-07-07 13:27:11|allmanrog|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|Stainless steel is routinely welded onto carbon (mild) steel in the food and chemical industries. They are both in the same metallurgic family and therefore are not dissimilar metals. In the food industry SS screw conveyors running along the roof are routinely supported on mild steel box beams. Likewise SS hoppers are often supported with mild steel beams, legs, or beam hangers. This is done to reduce weight and cost. A hopper (surge bin) may weigh 2-3000 pounds empty and 15,000+lbs when full. The structural quality of the weld is derated from the strength of SS to that of mild steel regardless of what type of filler rod is used. There are a few caveats: 1) any mild steel that is deposited on the SS through splatter or the molten pool during welding will rust. A shiny ss plate nowhere near the welding area may appear to be rusting. In this case mild steel (which may not be visible) has been deposited. It must be removed with an abrasive and coated with lemon juice (or any other source of citric acid) to stop the rusting. The weld will contain a mix of SS and mild and is therefore subject to rusting if not properly finished and sealed. Also use of TIG with argon shielding gas is highly recommended. 2) During the welding the stainless will move considerably more than the mild steel but only in the vicinity of the molten pool. (SS requires higher heat to weld but does not conduct the heat as well as mild steel). Welds must be done in small increments and substantial clamping is needed. 3) SS is very sensitive to the type of filler rod used; match the rod to the grade of plate (304,316, 8 series) 4) SS is much harder than mild steel. If the hull is required to flex the combination of dual plating and SS may create a hard point that is likely to crack rather than yield. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi all > > I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel > deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would you > use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on > steel? > > At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 > inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they are > never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all that > lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. > > By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, wonderfull > stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade boxes > out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so it > must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that won't > turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for my > basic Tigging Certificate!! > > Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage of > the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because there > the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 in > materials alone). > > Goodnight from Aus > > Ben | 4397|4275|2004-07-07 13:45:16|Henri Naths|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Brent I for one are apaled at the problem or lack there of. This site has been a wealth of information and I really appreciate the input of all the members and their experience. Be it metal, fg, composite wood , whatever, I'm sure everone can put the information in perspective.it's a learning curve, Henri Naths ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 July, 2004 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness News to me - please supply the quotes. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Geery" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 4:39 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 06:58:26 -0400, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > wrote: > > > Two minor points here, the title of this forum is 'Origamiboats'. While > > one way of building origamiboats is with metal the beaic tenets of Origami > > boatbuilding apply to wood, or composite panel construction equally well. > > Looking at the title page of this list's homepage, I quote: > "Origamiboats forum has been created to explore all aspects of a > unique and revolutionary method of building frameless steel sailboats. > The technique is known as "folded steel" boatbuilding, or "origami > steel" boatbuilding." > > I just think we are getting further and further away from practical > info on origami boatbuilding, and constantly delving into theoreticals > that really don't matter in the real world. > > I'm probably over-sensitive, as I read all 4000+ message archive in a > week, and the trend from "good" practical info to noise is very > evident when reading the messages in this compressed time. > > > I don't see where the title says, "Metal only- all others bugger off". I > > would also have thought that as some people seem to come to this site as > > a place to evaluate alternative methods of boat building and that a fair > > and open discussion of the various boat building meterials would be > > germane to that constituency. > > A list has to have some focus, or it ends up not serving any real > purpose for anyone. That's all I'm concerned with. Of course, these > replies don't help this situation. :) > > > That said, in the past when I have posted numerical comparasons of > > various boat building materials in terms of bending, flexure, impact > > resistance and abrasion, showing that on a strength to weight basis, > > steel does not do all that well, these numbers have been dismissed > > by saying, "This is not a science lab". > > I think it comes down to choices. Someone coming here has (probably) > already decided they want a metal boat (and probably choosing steel,) > and is investigating the easiest and/or cheapest way to build one. > > > And when I posted information gleaned from a Naval Academy study of > > impact resistance of various materials used in yachts in which a 500 > > lb ram with a sharp point (in other words the same steel hammer) was > > released with equal force on equal weight panels constructed of a variety > > of materials, and again since steel did not do all that well on a strength > > to weight basis being more easily pierced than the glass composite or cold > > molded wood panels, that study was also dismissed as being done in a lab. > > So I guess that you are right that this forum is not interested in a fair > > and open discussion of the various boat building materials. > > What do you expect the information to do? Convince us all to stop > building metal boats, and spend X times longer and X times more > expensive building a plastic or wooden boat? What use is this > information, when steel is all we (royal we) can afford to build in? > Again, the difference between practical and theoretical information. > > Useful practical information on building a stronger/lighter/cheaper > metal boats in the Origami style is helpful, but calling Brent's > designs "dangerous", "cheap", "built of junk", ect. (as Greg has done > in past messages- I can post quotes if needed) does nothing to help > others succeed in their goal of building a safe and economical boat. > IMO, of course. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4398|4275|2004-07-07 14:07:49|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength/thickness|This will be my last post on this subject. On the advice of another member I did a search on The Usenet typo king. His concerns in life seem more to be involved with moving to a desert home and water catchment systems, phones, computers, taxes. We are collectively being hood winked / stroked / having our legs pulled / whatever expression fits. I suspect he has no boating experience and never will. We have allowed a newbie to get under our skin. May I suggest we continue where we left off B4 typo king arrived. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:41 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness Brent I for one are apaled at the problem or lack there of. This site has been a wealth of information and I really appreciate the input of all the members and their experience. Be it metal, fg, composite wood , whatever, I'm sure everone can put the information in perspective.it's a learning curve, Henri Naths ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 July, 2004 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness News to me - please supply the quotes. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4399|4375|2004-07-07 14:22:22|brentswain38|Re: In Vancouver|Phil There is also a 40 footer being built on boundary road in Queensborough and a 40 footer named Mishar at the co-op marina just east of granville island in false creek.There is probably another 36 footer anchored in False Creek. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > Brent; > As of right now, I am headed over on the 8:30 Ferry. That could > change but I am a cute and somewhat persuasive guy so I shouldn't > have any trouble getting the group rental van to head over with. I > am meeting Evan at the new castle marina when I arrive and will see > how long it takes to get down to your area after that. > Best Regards > Phil > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Phil > > There are several of my boats in Nanaimo, at newcastle Marina > and > > behind muddy waters pub, just south of the ferry terminal. I'm in > > Sidney for the rest of the week, anchored just NW of resthaven > > Island. Leave a mesage on my aluminium dinghy on the north side of > > resthaven Island, or warn me with an email if you make it over > here. > > Brent > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." > > > wrote: > > > Hey Gang: > > > Made it to Vancouver all safe and sound, surprized customs let a > > > unsavory lookin character like me in, LOL. I will try to find > out > > > how to get out to naniamo(sp) and maybe check out what an > Origami > > > yacht looks like in person. > > > I am staying in the Coast Plaza near Stanley Park. If > anyoneknows > > of > > > a yacht close to vancouver that might be available for viewing > > close > > > by please let me know. > > > > > > I love this place, Might not go back, LOL. > > > Best regards > > > Phil | 4400|4373|2004-07-07 14:27:43|brentswain38|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|I've always prefered mild steel for the structural reliability and stainless bushings in the holes for wear resistance. If you have stainless bulwark caps then you have stainless holding up the rig in any case and might just as well go for stainless chainplates.As long as the chainplate is a sufficient overkill and the attachement to the bulwark is made much longer than a simple loop , there should be no structural problem. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "allmanrog" wrote: > Stainless steel is routinely welded onto carbon (mild) steel in the > food and chemical industries. They are both in the same metallurgic > family and therefore are not dissimilar metals. In the food industry > SS screw conveyors running along the roof are routinely supported on > mild steel box beams. Likewise SS hoppers are often supported with > mild steel beams, legs, or beam hangers. This is done to reduce > weight and cost. A hopper (surge bin) may weigh 2-3000 pounds empty > and 15,000+lbs when full. The structural quality of the weld is > derated from the strength of SS to that of mild steel regardless of > what type of filler rod is used. > > There are a few caveats: > 1) any mild steel that is deposited on the SS through splatter > or the molten pool during welding will rust. A shiny ss plate > nowhere near the welding area may appear to be rusting. In this case > mild steel (which may not be visible) has been deposited. It must be > removed with an abrasive and coated with lemon juice (or any other > source of citric acid) to stop the rusting. The weld will contain a > mix of SS and mild and is therefore subject to rusting if not > properly finished and sealed. Also use of TIG with argon shielding > gas is highly recommended. > 2) During the welding the stainless will move considerably more > than the mild steel but only in the vicinity of the molten pool. (SS > requires higher heat to weld but does not conduct the heat as well > as mild steel). Welds must be done in small increments and > substantial clamping is needed. > 3) SS is very sensitive to the type of filler rod used; match > the rod to the grade of plate (304,316, 8 series) > 4) SS is much harder than mild steel. If the hull is required > to flex the combination of dual plating and SS may create a hard > point that is likely to crack rather than yield. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > Hi all > > > > I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel > > deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would > you > > use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on > > steel? > > > > At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 > > inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they are > > never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all > that > > lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. > > > > By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, > wonderfull > > stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade > boxes > > out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so > it > > must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that > won't > > turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for my > > basic Tigging Certificate!! > > > > Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage > of > > the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because > there > > the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 in > > materials alone). > > > > Goodnight from Aus > > > > Ben | 4401|4257|2004-07-07 15:10:25|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in Baja. The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off successfully after a long delay. The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com Origami Magic 1990 Casano Drive North Vancouver, BC Canada V7J 2R2 tel: 1-604-987-0050 fax: 1-425-645-2756 fax: 1-514-372-6832 email: ge@... ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the depth of > the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank > hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of the > keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and > keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no floors or > tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a west > coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in such > proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on paper, > or theory.. > Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste their > time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding of > the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing is > strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by removing > the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > framing in the keel area. > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not form > puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks installed > over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of > the > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from > the > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > aspect > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > wrote: > > > > Greg, > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you > stop > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4402|4373|2004-07-07 21:04:54|Ben Tucker|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|Thanks Almanrog?, Brent and Gerd, I think I will go with the mild steel chainplates just to be sure, seems kind of silly to be using a steel hull, galvanised wire, bottlescrews and shackles, and then put a SS chainplate into the mix (mind you the tangs on the mast are SS but bolted not welded). Abit of a squiz on google revealed two interesting things in addition to Almanrogs info. 1) most seem to recommend 309's for welding to mild steel for all sorts of unintelligable metalurcical reasons 2) SS weld fumes are pretty nasty, but then so is everything these days. Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "allmanrog" wrote: > Stainless steel is routinely welded onto carbon (mild) steel in the > food and chemical industries. They are both in the same metallurgic > family and therefore are not dissimilar metals. In the food industry > SS screw conveyors running along the roof are routinely supported on > mild steel box beams. Likewise SS hoppers are often supported with > mild steel beams, legs, or beam hangers. This is done to reduce > weight and cost. A hopper (surge bin) may weigh 2-3000 pounds empty > and 15,000+lbs when full. The structural quality of the weld is > derated from the strength of SS to that of mild steel regardless of > what type of filler rod is used. > > There are a few caveats: > 1) any mild steel that is deposited on the SS through splatter > or the molten pool during welding will rust. A shiny ss plate > nowhere near the welding area may appear to be rusting. In this case > mild steel (which may not be visible) has been deposited. It must be > removed with an abrasive and coated with lemon juice (or any other > source of citric acid) to stop the rusting. The weld will contain a > mix of SS and mild and is therefore subject to rusting if not > properly finished and sealed. Also use of TIG with argon shielding > gas is highly recommended. > 2) During the welding the stainless will move considerably more > than the mild steel but only in the vicinity of the molten pool. (SS > requires higher heat to weld but does not conduct the heat as well > as mild steel). Welds must be done in small increments and > substantial clamping is needed. > 3) SS is very sensitive to the type of filler rod used; match > the rod to the grade of plate (304,316, 8 series) > 4) SS is much harder than mild steel. If the hull is required > to flex the combination of dual plating and SS may create a hard > point that is likely to crack rather than yield. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > > Hi all > > > > I was wondering about welding SS chainplates onto the mild steel > > deck? I see many steel boats with SS chainplates but what would > you > > use to weld them on with and are they as trustworthy as steel on > > steel? > > > > At least I have plenty of room to weld on nice big long ones (12 > > inches of weld for each I reckon). I want to be 100% sure they are > > never going to let go. I Have a nervous disposition (maybe all > that > > lead!)and an active imagination, not a good in a blow. > > > > By the way I have just been welding up some Alloy hatches, > wonderfull > > stuff for all of these bits and pieces (also made some dorade > boxes > > out of the stuff). The welding school TIGs weld it up lovely (so > it > > must be just me making them ugly), I get shiny new hatches that > won't > > turn to mush like the old wood ones and also get signed of for my > > basic Tigging Certificate!! > > > > Anybody in this group from Australia that isn't taking advantage > of > > the $1.50 per hour TAFE courses on welding should do so because > there > > the best value for money ever (I would use much more than $1.50 in > > materials alone). > > > > Goodnight from Aus > > > > Ben | 4403|4275|2004-07-07 23:10:13|Brent Geery|Re: Hull strength/thickness|On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:57:35 -0700, Michael Casling wrote: > This will be my last post on this subject. On the advice of another member I > did a search on The Usenet typo king. His concerns in life seem more to be > involved with moving to a desert home and water catchment systems, phones, > computers, taxes. I have a wide range of interests and knowledge. So what? I'm also into astronomy, computers, robotics, ultralight aircraft, auto repair, motorcycles, scuba diving, shortwave and ham radio, protection of protection of personal freedoms, frugal living, DVDs and home entertainment, video games, CDs and going to live concerts, alternative energy, alternative living situations, portable electronic gadgets of all kinds, photography and film making, and much more. Cruising has been a long-time interest of mine, and now that I have an independent (but small) steady income, I'm looking to make that happen full-time. I also noticed that you ignored ever single point I made and instead try the personal attack route. Interesting. > We are collectively being hood winked / stroked / having > our legs pulled / whatever expression fits. Why, because I'm asking why the "charter" of this group seems to have little bearing on some of the discussions that take place here? I want this to be a useful group for the intended purpose. You seem to think an "anything goes" and anti-steel philosophy is A-OK. > I suspect he has no boating > experience and never will. My boat building experience is not the issue, but just another attempt at some type of personal attack. Why do I need boat building experience to question all the off topic nonsense that seem to clutter this mailing list more and more? > We have allowed a newbie to get under our skin. The only ones (mostly) that seem to be disagreeing with me, are those few that are the biggest contributors/starters of these off-topic threads. No big shock there. Most don't have the stomach to stand up and say something. > May I suggest we continue where we left off B4 typo king arrived. > Michael BTW, I have a name, and I'd appreciate that you use it. Or is that the only way you can effectively reply to my concerns? Why make things personal, and ignore the points? Anyway, I'm done with this thread. I tried, but I should know better, that I don't have the strength nor time to fight the local bullies here, looking to push their own personal and business agendas. I'll just place the offenders into my kill file and be done with it. There are still many reasonable voices here, and I respect and appreciate their helpful, valuable, and practical information. Those people make this group worth following. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4404|4275|2004-07-07 23:14:29|Brent Geery|Re: Hull strength/thickness|On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 11:41:19 -0600, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Brent > I for one are apaled at the problem or lack there of. This site has > been a wealth of information and I really appreciate the input of all > the members and their experience. Be it metal, fg, composite wood , > whatever, I'm sure everone can put the information in perspective. > it's a learning curve, > Henri Naths Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with much of what you say. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4405|4405|2004-07-07 23:28:46|blueiceicle|Any 26ft er's out there?|Hello everyone. Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any interior pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but a realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things layout. As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together are a different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft is compared to a 26ft for interior space. Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be greatly appreciated! Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list for a copy of your building process video. Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month after you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a visit. Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. Jesse| 4406|4405|2004-07-07 23:44:26|Brent Geery|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 03:28:41 -0000, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Hello everyone. > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any interior > pics of a 26ft swain? I think "Dove III - 26 Northwest Passage vetran" pics are the only ones. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4407|4405|2004-07-08 00:03:05|Brent Geery|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|"blueiceicle" wrote: > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any interior > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but a > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things layout. > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together are a > different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft is > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be > greatly appreciated! > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list > for a copy of your building process video. > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month after > you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a visit. > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. I'm kind'a at the same place as you. Looking to build in about 2 years. The 26 footer has feet of space lost, plus a lowered headroom (you will probably have to crouch a bit in the 26 footer.) It's also going to be slower than the 31 footer, and more tender when sailing. Space is at a real premium in a 26 foot boat (well, on any boat really,) but there are lots of creative floor plans. You could probably look at the many online boat plans sites, and look at how other small boats are set up. pick and choose ideas from several plans, and add your own idea to the mix. You are not alone. Interior design is also where I'm the most hesitant. I Don't mind building a hull, or the gear, or even sails, but designing and building the interior has got me worried. There are a couple off books that are supposed to be useful for this job, "From a Bare Hull", "The Finely Fitted Yacht", and "Boat Joinery and Cabinetmaking Simplified". All can (I think) be ordered from Amazon. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4408|4408|2004-07-08 08:29:22|Ben Tucker|Heating,Diesel or wood?|Hi all Just thinking about heating as it's getting a bit cold down here, Those dickenson diesel heaters look great but there pretty expensive, is there any way to make a homemade one that fits into my woodstove? Thought about a Multifuel burner (MSR) put in the fire box, and also remember a fishing boat I worked on having a homemade drip pan system, but can't remember the details. Maybe just stick with the Wood one, at least it won't leak diesel all over the floor if it goes out! Cheers Ben| 4409|4409|2004-07-08 10:25:03|Gerd|This Group|I have been on the internet and around usenet and fido groups long before there ever was the first mosaic browser, and although I have only been here for a few months now, I would like to state 2 things here: 1) This group - in spite of serving what is still very much a niche topic - is the most valuable, active and polite group I have ever participated in. We have more than seven hundred members, many of them active, we have a docus of four and a half thousand messages full of detailed, practical knowledge, we have strong personalities of often radically opposed but in their way researched and well- funded opinion, we have occasional heated discussions which alwys end in a mutual respectful acknoledgement of differences, and I would not know where I would rather be. 2) If somebody in his _very first posting_ to the group has the cheek and lack of savoir vivre to ask the members to "heed his warnings" because otherwise the group would become useless within months, to try to tickle specific member on sensitive points he managed to glance from the archive, and to lauch a veiled attack on Greg, then all my experience tells me that here we might have to do with a well known species of usenet posters, commonly called "TROLLS". If there is one thing that can destroy a group forever, it is if the members start to get first into gratitious arguments with the troll, and then, as usually happens in the presence of a troll, for all the wrong reasons, into more and more nasty flame wars between themselves. Typo King Brent, you are, like everybody else, welcome here to contribute your own knowledge (although a pointer to a file in our file archive is not really what I would call fresh useful info for one of our members...) and you are welcome to profit from our common knowledge, work, time and energy we all have invested in research, design, building and sailing over many years. But don't be a troll, OK ? ;-) Gerd| 4410|4373|2004-07-08 10:46:24|willmarsh3|Re: Stainless Steel chainplates|On my steel boat "Andrea Lynn" the hawse pipes are made of SS so they don't rust but the chainplates are made of galvanized steel. Everything has worked fine for the 7 years that I have owned her. I don't know what rod was used to weld with though. She can be seen at http://willmarsh3.home.att.net Will --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Thanks Almanrog?, Brent and Gerd, > > I think I will go with the mild steel chainplates just to be sure, > seems kind of silly to be using a steel hull, galvanised wire, > bottlescrews and shackles, and then put a SS chainplate into the mix > (mind you the tangs on the mast are SS but bolted not welded). > > Abit of a squiz on google revealed two interesting things in | 4411|4408|2004-07-08 10:46:32|Bill Jaine|Re: Heating,Diesel or wood?|Have a look at Zodi propane tent heaters www.zodi.com Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: Ben Tucker [mailto:B.Tucker@...] Sent: 8-Jul-04 8:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Heating,Diesel or wood? Hi all Just thinking about heating as it's getting a bit cold down here, Those dickenson diesel heaters look great but there pretty expensive, is there any way to make a homemade one that fits into my woodstove? Thought about a Multifuel burner (MSR) put in the fire box, and also remember a fishing boat I worked on having a homemade drip pan system, but can't remember the details. Maybe just stick with the Wood one, at least it won't leak diesel all over the floor if it goes out! Cheers Ben To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ldesuu/M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/ D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089376163/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" HYPERLINK "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_06080 4.jpg" HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=group s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=112530012" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro up/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"ori gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4412|4408|2004-07-08 16:52:58|brentswain38|Re: Heating,Diesel or wood?|I just rigged a drip feed line into the firebox of my wood stove. I use a one gallon jerrycan on deck as a fuel tank and that is less fuel than the bottom of my fully welded airtight woodstove will hold, so it can't overflow.It smokes up the chimney a bit, but an occasional roaring woodfire takes care of that. It also lets me throw damp logs in the stove with no kindling and let the burning fuel drip onto them until they dry out and begin to burn. I use a stainless fully welded 1/8th inch wall stove pipe from the scrapyard, so chimney fires aren't a danger. I was thinking of building an oilstove type burner pot with a shield around it hooked up to an outside air supply, but I'm beginning to doubt if that's worth the effort given the way a simple drip feed in the firebox works. PS Typos help keep the perfectionists in touch with the real world. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > Have a look at Zodi propane tent heaters www.zodi.com > > Bill > Port Hope. Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Tucker [mailto:B.Tucker@f...] > Sent: 8-Jul-04 8:28 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Heating,Diesel or wood? > > Hi all > > Just thinking about heating as it's getting a bit cold down here, > Those dickenson diesel heaters look great but there pretty expensive, > is there any way to make a homemade one that fits into my woodstove? > Thought about a Multifuel burner (MSR) put in the fire box, and also > remember a fishing boat I worked on having a homemade drip pan > system, but can't remember the details. Maybe just stick with the > Wood one, at least it won't leak diesel all over the floor if it goes > out! > > Cheers > > Ben > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > HYPERLINK > "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ldesuu/M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294 649/ > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089376163/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= 13 > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" > > HYPERLINK > "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_0 6080 > 4.jpg" > > HYPERLINK > "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l? M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=group > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=112530012" > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com /gro > up/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? subject=Unsubscribe"ori > gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4413|4413|2004-07-08 17:04:52|brentswain38|Hurth transmisions|I just met another Hurth transmision victim who's hurth 125 crapped out after a very short time. A twin disc 360 has the same dimensions and the same power rating as a hurth 150, but fishermen who have used them for decades swear by twin disc trannys.They also have a very good warrantee when new, something Hurth seems to lack, and I'm told , are cheaper than hurth. If you have a Hurth, one common problem is that the dipstick often unscrews itself , gets caught in the gears and gets eaten, often dammaging the gears , bearings and seal. I put a strand of 1X19 X5/16th rigging wire wraped around one of the holes in the housing, with a 90 degree bend in the end which I stick in the breather hole on top of the dipstick. This prevents it from turning and can easily be sprung out when you want to remove the dipstick. When a hurth gets reluctant and slow to engage, it's time to change the oil. Brent Swain| 4414|2618|2004-07-08 18:05:40|denis buggy|Re: (unknown)|charles check out the aerorig site for your mast and let us know what you think of rotating masts. regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Leblanc To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:42 PM Subject: [origamiboats] (unknown) My mistake, I have found some steel "T" bars available in my area but we only use steel angled bars "L" or flatbars for our construction. The main drawback of "T" bar for marine use is that they will have a tendency to accumulate water and they will not drain as well if it installed horizontally. In my opinion, using vertical strigner defeats the purpose of the origami boatbuilding technique. I think that the proper use for the technique would be to use a thicker hull plating and to use the internal bulkheat to take the load. The stressed areas might get extra re-inforcement if there are no bulkheat located close. I am considering using a flameless construction for my hull unless I cannot achieve the level of strength needed. I am far from ready to build. Right now I am still researching the subject. I might purchase a couple of reference books to have an idea of the hull thickness required. Basically, the problem is that every calculation that I have seen does not take the plate curvature into account. We all know that a curved plate is much stronger than a flat plate but the calculation is a bit more difficult to perform. My project will be an aluminum hull for a sailing catamaran. It might even be possible to form it w/o winglets because some of the beach caramarans are built that way like the Taipan and the Tornado. Of cource I will need a much wider and taller hull. My first choice was to use the wooden cylindrical mold from Kurt Hugues however, I might get access to aluminum forming and welding in a few weeks so my choice will probably change. I might place some longitudinal strigners because I will need a higher SM around the yy axis just in front of the front crossbeam since there is alot of stress going in that area. I do not think that bucking will be a problem for me because the bottom of the hull will have a round shape with a fairly tight radius. Anyways, opinions are welcome, right now I am looking at a 27' catamaran without a bridgedeck or abobe 30' with a bridgedeck and... maybe an unstayed aluminum mast! Charles Leblanc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > Another advantage of the "T" bars is the easier access for painting > on the back sides. Considering that you can switch from Angle to T's. > of same width and thicknesses. It is true though that "T" bars are > easier to get in Europe than in the US. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4415|4405|2004-07-08 18:32:34|Mike|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|Jesse: Go to www.harbouryachtsales.com There you can view interior, and exterior, photos of Dove III. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Hello everyone. > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any interior > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but a > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things layout. > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together are a > different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft is > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be > greatly appreciated! > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list > for a copy of your building process video. > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month after > you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a visit. > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. > > Jesse | 4416|4416|2004-07-08 18:41:10|Mike|Rabbit for sale|I know of someone whom wishes to sell his rabbit diesel. Apparently, it is a strong runner. It is located in Surrey, B.C.. If anyone is interested, let me know and I'll hook you up. Regards, Mike| 4417|2618|2004-07-08 19:58:47|Charles Leblanc|--> Unstayed mast|There is some serious calculation required to install an unstayed mast especially on a catamaran. Once I start to design the boat, I will make a structural study of the unstayed mast. If I do build an unstayed mast, might as well hade an Aerorig type but it is more difficult than a simple taper round mast. I have seen somebopdy making a mast out of a taper lightpost. He used a home made lath to shave the wall down to 3/16 or 1/8. Ut could be very interesting especially since I might be able to get access to a lath myself. Right now, I am looking to get a preliminary scantling on the hull and bridgedeck. I will probably purchase the ABS rules for aluminum construction within a few month. I would like to make one hull and convert my beach catamaran into a trimaran withing a few months. Then simply build another hull, install a flat deck and have a catamaran. Finally, I could drop a bridgedeck on it and have my first catamaran. I know of the Dick Newick Tremolino a Beachcat based ctrimaran, I also like the Woods Strider, a small coastal cruiser with simple hulls. I might be able to build one hull like the hull of the wood strider and evolve it into a decent cat. I am afrait that if I wait to build a 35' cat, I might to have to wait very long. Charles Leblanc Nacra 5.2 (it might not be home built but it is a start) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > charles check out the aerorig site for your mast and let us know what you think of rotating masts. regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles Leblanc > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:42 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] (unknown) > > > My mistake, I have found some steel "T" bars available in my area but > we only use steel angled bars "L" or flatbars for our construction. > > The main drawback of "T" bar for marine use is that they will have a > tendency to accumulate water and they will not drain as well if it > installed horizontally. > > In my opinion, using vertical strigner defeats the purpose of the > origami boatbuilding technique. I think that the proper use for the > technique would be to use a thicker hull plating and to use the > internal bulkheat to take the load. The stressed areas might get > extra re-inforcement if there are no bulkheat located close. > > I am considering using a flameless construction for my hull unless I > cannot achieve the level of strength needed. I am far from ready to > build. Right now I am still researching the subject. I might > purchase a couple of reference books to have an idea of the hull > thickness required. Basically, the problem is that every calculation > that I have seen does not take the plate curvature into account. > > We all know that a curved plate is much stronger than a flat plate > but the calculation is a bit more difficult to perform. > > My project will be an aluminum hull for a sailing catamaran. It > might even be possible to form it w/o winglets because some of the > beach caramarans are built that way like the Taipan and the Tornado. > Of cource I will need a much wider and taller hull. > > My first choice was to use the wooden cylindrical mold from Kurt > Hugues however, I might get access to aluminum forming and welding in > a few weeks so my choice will probably change. > > I might place some longitudinal strigners because I will need a > higher SM around the yy axis just in front of the front crossbeam > since there is alot of stress going in that area. I do not think > that bucking will be a problem for me because the bottom of the hull > will have a round shape with a fairly tight radius. > > Anyways, opinions are welcome, right now I am looking at a 27' > catamaran without a bridgedeck or abobe 30' with a bridgedeck and... > maybe an unstayed aluminum mast! > > Charles Leblanc > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" > wrote: > > Another advantage of the "T" bars is the easier access for painting > > on the back sides. Considering that you can switch from Angle to > T's. > > of same width and thicknesses. It is true though that "T" bars are > > easier to get in Europe than in the US. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4418|2618|2004-07-08 20:48:19|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: --> Unstayed mast|Unstayed alloy poles have fatigue problems unless carefully engineered. I broke 3, unstayed 50 foot poles on a well known production boat within 2 years. I did the engineering numbers on the poles while we were stuck dismasted in Mexico, the pole having gone over the side in the Gulf of Tehuantepec, and could see they were not up to the job. They eventually fired their chief engineer and took my advise to increase the wall thickness in the lower 1/2 of the mast, and recalled the masts in many hundreds of boats. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Leblanc" To: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re:--> Unstayed mast > There is some serious calculation required to install an unstayed > mast especially on a catamaran. > > Once I start to design the boat, I will make a structural study of > the unstayed mast. > > If I do build an unstayed mast, might as well hade an Aerorig type > but it is more difficult than a simple taper round mast. > > I have seen somebopdy making a mast out of a taper lightpost. He > used a home made lath to shave the wall down to 3/16 or 1/8. Ut > could be very interesting especially since I might be able to get > access to a lath myself. > > Right now, I am looking to get a preliminary scantling on the hull > and bridgedeck. I will probably purchase the ABS rules for aluminum > construction within a few month. > > I would like to make one hull and convert my beach catamaran into a > trimaran withing a few months. Then simply build another hull, > install a flat deck and have a catamaran. Finally, I could drop a > bridgedeck on it and have my first catamaran. > > I know of the Dick Newick Tremolino a Beachcat based ctrimaran, I > also like the Woods Strider, a small coastal cruiser with simple > hulls. > > I might be able to build one hull like the hull of the wood strider > and evolve it into a decent cat. > > I am afrait that if I wait to build a 35' cat, I might to have to > wait very long. > > Charles Leblanc > Nacra 5.2 (it might not be home built but it is a start) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > > charles check out the aerorig site for your mast and let us know > what you think of rotating masts. regards denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Charles Leblanc > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 10:42 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] (unknown) > > > > > > My mistake, I have found some steel "T" bars available in my area > but > > we only use steel angled bars "L" or flatbars for our > construction. > > > > The main drawback of "T" bar for marine use is that they will > have a > > tendency to accumulate water and they will not drain as well if > it > > installed horizontally. > > > > In my opinion, using vertical strigner defeats the purpose of the > > origami boatbuilding technique. I think that the proper use for > the > > technique would be to use a thicker hull plating and to use the > > internal bulkheat to take the load. The stressed areas might get > > extra re-inforcement if there are no bulkheat located close. > > > > I am considering using a flameless construction for my hull > unless I > > cannot achieve the level of strength needed. I am far from ready > to > > build. Right now I am still researching the subject. I might > > purchase a couple of reference books to have an idea of the hull > > thickness required. Basically, the problem is that every > calculation > > that I have seen does not take the plate curvature into account. > > > > We all know that a curved plate is much stronger than a flat > plate > > but the calculation is a bit more difficult to perform. > > > > My project will be an aluminum hull for a sailing catamaran. It > > might even be possible to form it w/o winglets because some of > the > > beach caramarans are built that way like the Taipan and the > Tornado. > > Of cource I will need a much wider and taller hull. > > > > My first choice was to use the wooden cylindrical mold from Kurt > > Hugues however, I might get access to aluminum forming and > welding in > > a few weeks so my choice will probably change. > > > > I might place some longitudinal strigners because I will need a > > higher SM around the yy axis just in front of the front crossbeam > > since there is alot of stress going in that area. I do not think > > that bucking will be a problem for me because the bottom of the > hull > > will have a round shape with a fairly tight radius. > > > > Anyways, opinions are welcome, right now I am looking at a 27' > > catamaran without a bridgedeck or abobe 30' with a bridgedeck > and... > > maybe an unstayed aluminum mast! > > > > Charles Leblanc > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" > > > wrote: > > > Another advantage of the "T" bars is the easier access for > painting > > > on the back sides. Considering that you can switch from Angle > to > > T's. > > > of same width and thicknesses. It is true though that "T" bars > are > > > easier to get in Europe than in the US. > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4419|4405|2004-07-08 20:51:26|hauraki_blue|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|Oh boy, I do love ther look of the owod finihs in htat interior. Anyone got an idea of what type of wood he has used. I like it because the light varnish (oiled) finish looks nice and traditional or shippy if you will (yes I suffer a bit from boat-porn!) without the dark coffin look you see in some interiors. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Jesse: > Go to www.harbouryachtsales.com > There you can view interior, and exterior, photos of Dove III. > Regards, > Mike > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" > wrote: > > Hello everyone. > > > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any > interior > > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but > a > > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could > > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things layout. > > > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together are a > > different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft > is > > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list > > for a copy of your building process video. > > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month > after > > you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a > visit. > > > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. > > > > Jesse | 4420|4405|2004-07-08 20:52:42|hauraki_blue|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|sorry about the typos. Thats "wood interior finish"I was trying to type. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > Oh boy, I do love ther look of the owod finihs in htat interior. > Anyone got an idea of what type of wood he has used. I like it > because the light varnish (oiled) finish looks nice and traditional > or shippy if you will (yes I suffer a bit from boat-porn!) without > the dark coffin look you see in some interiors. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > > Jesse: > > Go to www.harbouryachtsales.com > > There you can view interior, and exterior, photos of Dove III. > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" > > wrote: > > > Hello everyone. > > > > > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any > > interior > > > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft > but > > a > > > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > > > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > > > > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could > > > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things layout. > > > > > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together are > a > > > different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft > > is > > > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > > > > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be > > > greatly appreciated! > > > > > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list > > > for a copy of your building process video. > > > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month > > after > > > you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a > > visit. > > > > > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. > > > > > > Jesse | 4421|4408|2004-07-09 01:51:03|Ben Tucker|Re: Heating,Diesel or wood?|Thanks Brent and Bill, the tent heater concept could work well on a small boat and they have some interesting ideas for water heating. Brent, Your system is brillant and simple, love the anti overflow idea, beats all those fancy float valves and thermo sensor ideas I had! A couple of questions, what are you using for a fuel line (copper?), are you wrapping it round the chimney for preheat, what type of tip (flattened coppertube?), what height are you dripping from?, and how are you controlling the flow (is an ordinary fuel valve sensitive enough?). A few of us down here have been discussing trying something along these lines for our woodstoves but none of us have been cold enough to bother yet! there's some good stuff on the net about waste oil burners but nothing i could find for diesel so thanks heaps Brent. I'll keep you posted on our progress. One neat idea I saw on a Meta built Dalu 40 (Metapassion) that had spent some time in antartica was to use the fuel return line from the engine to keep the header tank for their refleks heater topped up. An overflow lead back to the main tank. This kept the tank full with freshly filtered fuel. Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I just rigged a drip feed line into the firebox of my wood stove. I > use a one gallon jerrycan on deck as a fuel tank and that is less > fuel than the bottom of my fully welded airtight woodstove will hold, > so it can't overflow.It smokes up the chimney a bit, but an > occasional roaring woodfire takes care of that. It also lets me throw > damp logs in the stove with no kindling and let the burning fuel drip > onto them until they dry out and begin to burn. I use a stainless > fully welded 1/8th inch wall stove pipe from the scrapyard, so > chimney fires aren't a danger. I was thinking of building an oilstove > type burner pot with a shield around it hooked up to an outside air > supply, but I'm beginning to doubt if that's worth the effort given > the way a simple drip feed in the firebox works. > > PS Typos help keep the perfectionists in touch with the real world. > Brent Swain > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" > wrote: > > Have a look at Zodi propane tent heaters www.zodi.com > > > > Bill > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ben Tucker [mailto:B.Tucker@f...] > > Sent: 8-Jul-04 8:28 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Heating,Diesel or wood? > > > > Hi all > > > > Just thinking about heating as it's getting a bit cold down here, > > Those dickenson diesel heaters look great but there pretty > expensive, > > is there any way to make a homemade one that fits into my > woodstove? > > Thought about a Multifuel burner (MSR) put in the fire box, and > also > > remember a fishing boat I worked on having a homemade drip pan > > system, but can't remember the details. Maybe just stick with the > > Wood one, at least it won't leak diesel all over the floor if it > goes > > out! > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > HYPERLINK > > "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ldesuu/M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294 > 649/ > > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089376163/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= > 13 > > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" > > > > HYPERLINK > > "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_0 > 6080 > > 4.jpg" > > > > HYPERLINK > > "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l? > M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=group > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=112530012" > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > HYPERLINK > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com > /gro > > up/origamiboats/ > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > HYPERLINK > > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > subject=Unsubscribe"ori > > gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --- > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4422|4405|2004-07-09 03:43:08|sae140|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Hello everyone. > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any interior > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but a > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) If you wanted to build a 26 for reasons of size, then I wouldn't comment, but if your reasons for choosing the smaller boat are purely financial, then I'd suggest you re-examine the situation. The cost (and certainly the effort) of construction is going to be *almost* identical - only a slight scaling-up of lead, paint and gear. Expenses such as blasting and foaming, engine, spars etc., are going to be very similar, so if it's a 31 you *really* want - then you might be better off opting to build a 31 with only a partially completed interior, and then complete the work 'as and when'. In my view it's a mistake to settle for second-best from the outset, as you'll always have that nagging feeling that you're not building what you *really* want, and that may even sap your enthusiasm during the build process. In a similar vein: as my ol' dad used to say, "an expensive tool is only expensive on the day you buy it, but a cheap tool is cheap for ever." My 2p's worth Colin| 4423|4409|2004-07-09 03:45:58|sae140|Re: This Group|I'd like to chuck my 2p's worth on this ...... I also think it's a bit rich for anyone on their first posting to be negatively criticising group behaviour - but then, it happens from time to time. And indeed, there may well be some merit to the criticism of developing noise, but as to the pointlessness of the group - well, check out the members and postings numbers ... they tell a very different story. Brent (Typo King) writes: "The first years worth of messages were almost pure useful on-topic info, and the last 6 months have been nearly 50% .... [noise ]" (my words). Well, isn't that a reasonable trend to expect, when most of the 'nitty-gritty' of origami building has already been covered ? There's only so much you can say about Origami principles and building techniques/problems before repetition occurs. If the postings *only* related to "strictly Origami", then they'd be very thin indeed. No talk of engines, masts, deck gear, paint systems, welding or blasting info, interiors ... the list goes on ...... My guess is the group would be down to a handful of posts a month, and these would probably be related to answering enquiries from newcomers about where to source plans/info. A couple of us did start 'companion groups' in an attempt to move more social/political chat away from here - but these met with little success. I think Gerd puts it extremely well by saying that this is the most valuable, active and polite group he's ever participated in. Those are my sentiments too. Colin| 4424|4408|2004-07-09 06:35:04|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Heating,Diesel or wood?|For many years I used a Svea, white gas, backpacking stove for cooking and to heat a thrown together cook tent when bow hunting. With that in mind I looked into changing over the burners on my boat cooking stove to a backpack multi fuel stove and keeping in mind that I might also install a unit as a heater. I was looking at the Primus Himalaya OmniFuel 3289. The little stove puts out 10,700 BTU and burns almost any fuel. Figured the $117 unit was much cheaper than installing a diesel burning Taylor. However, in the end I cut down a junk, propane, kitchen stove and installed it in the boat. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Thanks Brent and Bill, the tent heater concept could work well on a > small boat and they have some interesting ideas for water heating. > > Brent, Your system is brillant and simple, love the anti overflow > idea, beats all those fancy float valves and thermo sensor ideas I > had! > > A couple of questions, what are you using for a fuel line (copper?), > are you wrapping it round the chimney for preheat, what type of tip > (flattened coppertube?), what height are you dripping from?, and how > are you controlling the flow (is an ordinary fuel valve sensitive > enough?). > > A few of us down here have been discussing trying something along > these lines for our woodstoves but none of us have been cold enough > to bother yet! there's some good stuff on the net about waste oil > burners but nothing i could find for diesel so thanks heaps Brent. > > I'll keep you posted on our progress. > > One neat idea I saw on a Meta built Dalu 40 (Metapassion) that had > spent some time in antartica was to use the fuel return line from the > engine to keep the header tank for their refleks heater topped up. An > overflow lead back to the main tank. This kept the tank full with > freshly filtered fuel. > > Cheers > > Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > I just rigged a drip feed line into the firebox of my wood stove. I > > use a one gallon jerrycan on deck as a fuel tank and that is less > > fuel than the bottom of my fully welded airtight woodstove will > hold, > > so it can't overflow.It smokes up the chimney a bit, but an > > occasional roaring woodfire takes care of that. It also lets me > throw > > damp logs in the stove with no kindling and let the burning fuel > drip > > onto them until they dry out and begin to burn. I use a stainless > > fully welded 1/8th inch wall stove pipe from the scrapyard, so > > chimney fires aren't a danger. I was thinking of building an > oilstove > > type burner pot with a shield around it hooked up to an outside air > > supply, but I'm beginning to doubt if that's worth the effort given > > the way a simple drip feed in the firebox works. > > > > PS Typos help keep the perfectionists in touch with the real world. > > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" > > wrote: > > > Have a look at Zodi propane tent heaters www.zodi.com > > > > > > Bill > > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ben Tucker [mailto:B.Tucker@f...] > > > Sent: 8-Jul-04 8:28 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Heating,Diesel or wood? > > > > > > Hi all > > > > > > Just thinking about heating as it's getting a bit cold down here, > > > Those dickenson diesel heaters look great but there pretty > > expensive, > > > is there any way to make a homemade one that fits into my > > woodstove? > > > Thought about a Multifuel burner (MSR) put in the fire box, and > > also > > > remember a fishing boat I worked on having a homemade drip pan > > > system, but can't remember the details. Maybe just stick with the > > > Wood one, at least it won't leak diesel all over the floor if it > > goes > > > out! > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > HYPERLINK > > > > "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ldesuu/M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294 > > 649/ > > > > > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089376163/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= > > 13 > > > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > > redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > > > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > > "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_0 > > 6080 > > > 4.jpg" > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l? > > M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=group > > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=112530012" > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > HYPERLINK > > > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com > > /gro > > > up/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > HYPERLINK > > > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > > subject=Unsubscribe"ori > > > gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > > > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > --- > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4425|4275|2004-07-09 11:34:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Framing is added to steel boats so that no part of the boat is weaker than the rest. The level arm between the hull and keel results in a loading force at the garboard seam much greater than the forces typical in the rest of the hull, creating a weak spot in the boat. It is predictable the boat will fail at this point, unless the plating is overly heavy. People build steel boats for strength. A properly designed and built steel boat should be able to sit on a reef and be crushed beyond recognition, without the keel falling off. Not simply dented - which can happen relatively easily in steel. There is nothing about steel that would prevent this, if the keel is attached as strongly to the hull as all other parts of the boat. Consider automobile crashes. We don't see major structural parts fall off steel cars in collisions (except the rubber mounted bits). Only at very high speed, with energy levels much greater than a boat pounding on a reef. Otherwise, the steel boat is no better than FG or wood, and could in fact be much weaker, while being much heavier. In fact, a typical FG or wood boat, built as heavy as steel, would not loose a keel before the rest of the hull was destroyed. It is a mistake to assume that because steel is a strong material, it is structurally strong. Steel plating, because it must be kept thin to reduce weight, is weak in the direction of curvature, and will bend to avoid the load, leading to fatigue and failure. Framing is used to prevent steel from bending to avoid the load, thus preventing fatigue and failure. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats under 60 > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > Brent swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > wrote: > > Gerd, > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not synonymous > with > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with the > origami > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come back in > and fit > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > install > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) is > that the > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > plating then to > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > savings > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > drafting > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > electronic > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the steel > supplier > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > material. > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > completed boat > > discussions well. > > > > Jeff > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4426|4426|2004-07-09 13:04:11|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Fold your own Bare Bones 30|Sample patterns you can download and fold. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/LB30/LB30Demo.zip These patterns may be used to evaluate the Bare Bones 30. They can be printed in 22" paper, which can be readily made by taping two pieces of 11" paper together. Most printers will handle the longer paper. The Bare Bones 30 is a single chine, modern origami hull form, suitable for steel or alloy construction. The patterns may not be used to build a full scale boat without a license agreement from the copyright holder. http://origamimagic.com/Design/LB30/LB30.htm Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com| 4427|4427|2004-07-09 13:21:31|SHANE ROTHWELL|Welding Stainless Steel|Hi All, Someone mentioned using 309 to weld SS to mild steel and he's right. I recently got a roll of "309L" from Praxair in Vancouver. Sam Winter (on Clark St locatn) wasn't sure but checked it out for me and 309 is definitely the material to use for welding SS to 'dissimilar material' Bye the bye, having checked out 'Air Liquide" and Praxair, prices & knoledge of staff seems to be far far better at Praxair Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4428|4408|2004-07-09 16:03:16|brentswain38|Re: Heating,Diesel or wood?|I'd be leery about using something as ex-plosive as propane or gas in a boat for general heating. Propane also neeeds a chimney as a 20 lb bottle of propane creates 5 gallons of water. I used 1/4 inch copper pipe for many years with no problem, but find stainless flare tubing quite cheap in scrapyards and I'm switching over to that due to it's resistance to breaking down from vibration. Brass compression rings work well on stainless flare tubing. I run the pipe directly into the bottom of the stove a couple of inches up, no preheating as that can carbon up the pipe inside. I made a drip valve using a needle valve and a piece of clear plexi tubing for the sight glass. Fender washers with an ss ring the OD of the plexi tube made the top and bottom of the drip valve,with stainless pipe fittings welded on. One drip per secongd is a good starting point. This arrangement was once common in sevice stations where they have an unending supply of used engine oil. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > For many years I used a Svea, white gas, backpacking stove for cooking > and to heat a thrown together cook tent when bow hunting. With that in > mind I looked into changing over the burners on my boat cooking stove > to a backpack multi fuel stove and keeping in mind that I might also > install a unit as a heater. I was looking at the Primus Himalaya > OmniFuel 3289. The little stove puts out 10,700 BTU and burns almost > any fuel. Figured the $117 unit was much cheaper than installing a > diesel burning Taylor. However, in the end I cut down a junk, propane, > kitchen stove and installed it in the boat. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > > Thanks Brent and Bill, the tent heater concept could work well on a > > small boat and they have some interesting ideas for water heating. > > > > Brent, Your system is brillant and simple, love the anti overflow > > idea, beats all those fancy float valves and thermo sensor ideas I > > had! > > > > A couple of questions, what are you using for a fuel line (copper?), > > are you wrapping it round the chimney for preheat, what type of tip > > (flattened coppertube?), what height are you dripping from?, and how > > are you controlling the flow (is an ordinary fuel valve sensitive > > enough?). > > > > A few of us down here have been discussing trying something along > > these lines for our woodstoves but none of us have been cold enough > > to bother yet! there's some good stuff on the net about waste oil > > burners but nothing i could find for diesel so thanks heaps Brent. > > > > I'll keep you posted on our progress. > > > > One neat idea I saw on a Meta built Dalu 40 (Metapassion) that had > > spent some time in antartica was to use the fuel return line from the > > engine to keep the header tank for their refleks heater topped up. An > > overflow lead back to the main tank. This kept the tank full with > > freshly filtered fuel. > > > > Cheers > > > > Ben > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > > wrote: > > > I just rigged a drip feed line into the firebox of my wood stove. I > > > use a one gallon jerrycan on deck as a fuel tank and that is less > > > fuel than the bottom of my fully welded airtight woodstove will > > hold, > > > so it can't overflow.It smokes up the chimney a bit, but an > > > occasional roaring woodfire takes care of that. It also lets me > > throw > > > damp logs in the stove with no kindling and let the burning fuel > > drip > > > onto them until they dry out and begin to burn. I use a stainless > > > fully welded 1/8th inch wall stove pipe from the scrapyard, so > > > chimney fires aren't a danger. I was thinking of building an > > oilstove > > > type burner pot with a shield around it hooked up to an outside air > > > supply, but I'm beginning to doubt if that's worth the effort given > > > the way a simple drip feed in the firebox works. > > > > > > PS Typos help keep the perfectionists in touch with the real world. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" > > > wrote: > > > > Have a look at Zodi propane tent heaters www.zodi.com > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > Port Hope. Canada > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ben Tucker [mailto:B.Tucker@f...] > > > > Sent: 8-Jul-04 8:28 AM > > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Heating,Diesel or wood? > > > > > > > > Hi all > > > > > > > > Just thinking about heating as it's getting a bit cold down here, > > > > Those dickenson diesel heaters look great but there pretty > > > expensive, > > > > is there any way to make a homemade one that fits into my > > > woodstove? > > > > Thought about a Multifuel burner (MSR) put in the fire box, and > > > also > > > > remember a fishing boat I worked on having a homemade drip pan > > > > system, but can't remember the details. Maybe just stick with the > > > > Wood one, at least it won't leak diesel all over the floor if it > > > goes > > > > out! > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > HYPERLINK > > > > > > "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ldesuu/M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294 > > > 649/ > > > > > > > > > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089376163/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= > > > 13 > > > > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > > > redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > > > > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" > > > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > > > > "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_0 > > > 6080 > > > > 4.jpg" > > > > > > > > HYPERLINK > > > > "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l? > > > M=296967.5106131.6227187.3294649/D=group > > > > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=112530012" > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > > HYPERLINK > > > > > > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com > > > /gro > > > > up/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > > HYPERLINK > > > > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? > > > subject=Unsubscribe"ori > > > > gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > > > > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 05/07/2004 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4429|4275|2004-07-09 16:11:58|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength/thickness|One of my 36 footers pounded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on the west coast of the baja, with one transverse web accross the keel with no keel dammage even tho the keel was buried in the hard packed sand for almost the whole time. Another pounded accross 200 yards of Fijian coral reef with no visible dammage even tho all the paint was pounded off. When something is so well proven over many years , and many extreme torture tests, one would look a bit foolish saying " It won't work." The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) results in eight times the strength. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Framing is added to steel boats so that no part of the boat is weaker than the rest. The level arm between the hull and keel > results in a loading force at the garboard seam much greater than the forces typical in the rest of the hull, creating a weak spot > in the boat. It is predictable the boat will fail at this point, unless the plating is overly heavy. > > People build steel boats for strength. A properly designed and built steel boat should be able to sit on a reef and be crushed > beyond recognition, without the keel falling off. Not simply dented - which can happen relatively easily in steel. > > There is nothing about steel that would prevent this, if the keel is attached as strongly to the hull as all other parts of the > boat. Consider automobile crashes. We don't see major structural parts fall off steel cars in collisions (except the rubber > mounted bits). Only at very high speed, with energy levels much greater than a boat pounding on a reef. > > Otherwise, the steel boat is no better than FG or wood, and could in fact be much weaker, while being much heavier. In fact, a > typical FG or wood boat, built as heavy as steel, would not loose a keel before the rest of the hull was destroyed. > > It is a mistake to assume that because steel is a strong material, it is structurally strong. Steel plating, because it must be > kept thin to reduce weight, is weak in the direction of curvature, and will bend to avoid the load, leading to fatigue and failure. > Framing is used to prevent steel from bending to avoid the load, thus preventing fatigue and failure. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:23 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats under 60 > > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > > Brent swain > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > > wrote: > > > Gerd, > > > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not synonymous > > with > > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with the > > origami > > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come back in > > and fit > > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > > install > > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) is > > that the > > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > > plating then to > > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > > savings > > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > > drafting > > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > > electronic > > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the steel > > supplier > > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > > material. > > > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > > completed boat > > > discussions well. > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4430|4257|2004-07-09 16:19:53|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio in a totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded for 16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed( too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel dammage. I have photos of the event. The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was there deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her keel buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I bgan building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he wider skeg she would never have broken it. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in > Baja. > > The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off successfully after a long delay. > > The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Origami Magic > 1990 Casano Drive > North Vancouver, BC > Canada V7J 2R2 > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > email: ge@e... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the depth of > > the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank > > hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of the > > keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and > > keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > > required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no floors or > > tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a west > > coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in such > > proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on paper, > > or theory.. > > Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste their > > time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding of > > the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through the > > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and framing is > > strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of the > > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, leading > > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to safely > > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended for > > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by removing > > the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > > framing in the keel area. > > > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, and > > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not form > > puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks installed > > over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the curve of > > the > > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or from > > the > > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > > aspect > > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Greg, > > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do you > > stop > > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4431|4275|2004-07-09 17:23:52|Gerd|Re: Hull strength/thickness|Brent, and with all due respect, why would I want to double(!) the width of my keel & skeg attachment rather than design a hydro- dynamically effective keel and then attach it properly? What on earth is there that speaks AGAINST having floors (even only touching the stringers, not the skin) at least around the keel-attachment area? Also your earlier statement that "Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats under 60 ft." seems to be a bit crass really, if there is no further specification as to when (skin thickness, displacment, shape, stringers etc...) a hull may do without frames. As for the true and trusted based on anecdotic evidence, I guess there a a lot more and older anecdotes for framed hulls - so, that does not make this wrong or right either way, but if you so strongly deviate from common perceptions regarding major structural issues, I think it would be better understood if you supplied a bit more hard data ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > One of my 36 footers pounded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on the west > coast of the baja, with one transverse web accross the keel with no > keel dammage even tho the keel was buried in the hard packed sand for > almost the whole time. Another pounded accross 200 yards of Fijian > coral reef with no visible dammage even tho all the paint was pounded > off. When something is so well proven over many years , and many > extreme torture tests, one would look a bit foolish saying " It won't > work." > The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > results in eight times the strength. > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Framing is added to steel boats so that no part of the boat is > weaker than the rest. The level arm between the hull and keel > > results in a loading force at the garboard seam much greater than > the forces typical in the rest of the hull, creating a weak spot > > in the boat. It is predictable the boat will fail at this point, > unless the plating is overly heavy. > > > > People build steel boats for strength. A properly designed and > built steel boat should be able to sit on a reef and be crushed > > beyond recognition, without the keel falling off. Not simply > dented - which can happen relatively easily in steel. > > > > There is nothing about steel that would prevent this, if the keel > is attached as strongly to the hull as all other parts of the > > boat. Consider automobile crashes. We don't see major structural > parts fall off steel cars in collisions (except the rubber > > mounted bits). Only at very high speed, with energy levels much > greater than a boat pounding on a reef. > > > > Otherwise, the steel boat is no better than FG or wood, and could > in fact be much weaker, while being much heavier. In fact, a > > typical FG or wood boat, built as heavy as steel, would not loose a > keel before the rest of the hull was destroyed. > > > > It is a mistake to assume that because steel is a strong material, > it is structurally strong. Steel plating, because it must be > > kept thin to reduce weight, is weak in the direction of curvature, > and will bend to avoid the load, leading to fatigue and failure. > > Framing is used to prevent steel from bending to avoid the load, > thus preventing fatigue and failure. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats > under 60 > > > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > > > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > > > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > > > Brent swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > > > wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not > synonymous > > > with > > > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with > the > > > origami > > > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come > back in > > > and fit > > > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > > > install > > > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) > is > > > that the > > > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > > > plating then to > > > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > > > savings > > > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > > > drafting > > > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > > > electronic > > > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the > steel > > > supplier > > > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > > > material. > > > > > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > > > completed boat > > > > discussions well. > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4432|4257|2004-07-09 17:39:26|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Does that not prove the point? it's not the "member" that broke but the plate next to it carried all the load and gave in. The skeg was strong enough. ?? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio in a > totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded for > 16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed ( > too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft > surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand > every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the > proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel > dammage. I have photos of the event. > The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was there > deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her keel > buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the > hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the > hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer > reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her > keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I bgan > building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he > wider skeg she would never have broken it. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in > Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in > > Baja. > > > > The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off > successfully after a long delay. > > > > The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel > separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the > depth of > > > the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank > > > hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of > the > > > keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and > > > keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > > > required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no > floors or > > > tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a > west > > > coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in > such > > > proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on > paper, > > > or theory.. > > > Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste > their > > > time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding > of > > > the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through > the > > > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and > framing is > > > strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of > the > > > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, > leading > > > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > > > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to > safely > > > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended > for > > > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by > removing > > > the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > > > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > > > framing in the keel area. > > > > > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, > and > > > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not > form > > > puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks > installed > > > over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the > curve of > > > the > > > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or > from > > > the > > > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > > > aspect > > > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do > you > > > stop > > > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4433|4433|2004-07-09 18:45:28|prairiemaidca|Hull strength|Hi All: I'm finding the dialogue on the question of strength very interesting but I haven't seen a comment on the effect the foam and the interior of the boat, has on the overall strength. As for welding rod I have used 308 for stainless to stainless and 309 for mild to stainless on Prairie Maid. Since she has a stainless bulwark pipe I've made all my rig attachments out of quite large pieces of stainless and can't imagine them failing. On another note I'm wondering if anyone can tell me the aprox. cost new of a borg warner velvet drive or the twin disc transmission that was mentioned, and who are some honest dealers in Western Canada... Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 4434|4433|2004-07-09 19:01:23|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Martin - I have never used foaming - do you expect structural strength from that? What sort of foam is that? What I have read though is a hull that had a bigger punctured leak in the skin (inthe bilge even?)that went unobserverd for a long time because the foam sealed it off - don't remember where, maybe somebody else has the pointer to that... Interior - that depends I guess, either it has no or little strength and would be discounted in anaything that would be capable to endanger the hull, or it is anchored solid and strong enough in itself in which case a bulkhead might appear as a one of those nasty traverse hardpoints ;-) This would be unusual though, steelboats are mostly designed to be structurally strong enough in all respects to be sailed completely empty. As for the SS parts - do I understand you right that you weld chainplates on top of your bulwark pipe? If so what is the scantling of your chainplates and of the pipe? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All: I'm finding the dialogue on the question of strength very > interesting but I haven't seen a comment on the effect the foam and > the interior of the boat, has on the overall strength. As for > welding rod I have used 308 for stainless to stainless and 309 for > mild to stainless on Prairie Maid. Since she has a stainless bulwark > pipe I've made all my rig attachments out of quite large pieces of > stainless and can't imagine them failing. On another note I'm > wondering if anyone can tell me the aprox. cost new of a borg warner > velvet drive or the twin disc transmission that was mentioned, and > who are some honest dealers in Western Canada... > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) | 4435|4257|2004-07-09 20:43:55|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|The events were related to me as I stated. There were no witnesses that I know of other than the owner, so it is easy for the record to get twisted over time. If Mungo had proven itself structurally sound, I can see no reason why the owner would switch builders, yet he did. Here is a picture of Mungo II with the owner. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Cruising/TG.htm Ron and I did Mungo II from the lines of the Lazy Bones. Skeg or keel, a failure is a failure, and it takes a pretty specialized camera to detect metal fatigue. Likely the first grounding damaged the boat structurally through fatigue, leading to rapid failure of the boat on the second grounding. The fact that the appendages did not fall off during the first grounding does not mean there was no damage - it just means the damage was not visible to the eye. This event points directly to the reason that frames are added to metal boat. Making the skeg wider makes the skeg stronger, but it was not the skeg that failed, it was the hull. You add frames in way of the skeg and keel to effectively make the hull thicker in that area, without having to make the plating thicker. Otherwise, you have a weak point, be it skeg or keel, as Mungo has proven. The concern now should be identification and correction of all other boats with similar skeg/keel attachments as Mungo. I am concerned that this failure has not been mentioned previously, as this silence has given a false impression of the structural strength/integrity of frameless construction. I would expect that anyone with a similar boat should be very concerned. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:19 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio in a > totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded for > 16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed( > too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft > surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand > every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the > proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel > dammage. I have photos of the event. > The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was there > deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her keel > buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the > hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the > hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer > reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her > keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I bgan > building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he > wider skeg she would never have broken it. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in > Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in > > Baja. > > > > The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off > successfully after a long delay. > > > > The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel > separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > Origami Magic > > 1990 Casano Drive > > North Vancouver, BC > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the > depth of > > > the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank > > > hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of > the > > > keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and > > > keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > > > required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no > floors or > > > tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a > west > > > coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in > such > > > proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on > paper, > > > or theory.. > > > Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste > their > > > time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding > of > > > the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through > the > > > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > > > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and > framing is > > > strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > > > localized structural members as required to take the loads of > the > > > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, > leading > > > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > > > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to > safely > > > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended > for > > > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by > removing > > > the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > > > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > > > framing in the keel area. > > > > > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, > and > > > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > > > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not > form > > > puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks > installed > > > over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > Origami Magic > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the > curve of > > > the > > > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or > from > > > the > > > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > > > aspect > > > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do > you > > > stop > > > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4436|4257|2004-07-09 20:43:55|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Exactly, it wasn't the skeg that broke, it was the hull. You fixed the part that wasn't broken. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Does that not prove the point? it's not the "member" that broke but > the plate next to it carried all the load and gave in. The skeg was > strong enough. ?? > Gerd > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio > in a > > totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded > for > > 16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed > ( > > too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft > > surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand > > every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the > > proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel > > dammage. I have photos of the event. > > The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was > there > > deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her > keel > > buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the > > hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the > > hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer > > reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her > > keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I > bgan > > building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he > > wider skeg she would never have broken it. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in > > Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in > > > Baja. > > > > > > The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off > > successfully after a long delay. > > > > > > The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel > > separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > Origami Magic > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the > > depth of > > > > the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the > watertank > > > > hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top > of > > the > > > > keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull > and > > > > keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > > > > required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no > > floors or > > > > tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on > a > > west > > > > coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith > in > > such > > > > proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on > > paper, > > > > or theory.. > > > > Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste > > their > > > > time and money on comes from their complete lack of > understanding > > of > > > > the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > Typically you do not want to support the force of keel > through > > the > > > > skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly > heavy > > > > > hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and > > framing is > > > > strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > > > > > localized structural members as required to take the loads > of > > the > > > > keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > > > > > results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, > > leading > > > > to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > > > > > the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > > > > > > > > > > I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show > that > > > > there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to > > safely > > > > > support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht > intended > > for > > > > offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > > > > > hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by > > removing > > > > the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > > > > > to see how it make sense structurally to remove the > longitudinal > > > > framing in the keel area. > > > > > > > > > > For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any > keel, > > and > > > > carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The > floors > > > > > would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do > not > > form > > > > puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > > > > > full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks > > installed > > > > over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > Origami Magic > > > > > 1990 Casano Drive > > > > > North Vancouver, BC > > > > > Canada V7J 2R2 > > > > > tel: 1-604-987-0050 > > > > > fax: 1-425-645-2756 > > > > > fax: 1-514-372-6832 > > > > > email: ge@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the > > curve of > > > > the > > > > > > keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > > > > > > transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline > or > > from > > > > the > > > > > > chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a > high > > > > aspect > > > > > > ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > > > > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > > If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how > do > > you > > > > stop > > > > > > > the keel wobbling? > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4437|4433|2004-07-09 21:40:44|prairiemaidca|Hull strength|Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's own strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the interior and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior components, how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or not at all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an impact in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way round and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top attachments are the same except that they will go through the cabin top and join a cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof beam which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this to a couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high stress and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but so be it... Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 4438|4257|2004-07-09 21:44:27|Steve Rankin|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|As a good friend of Godfreys and having followed this project plus a few others of his, I can assure this list that the suggestion that he switched builders because of the structural issues is a complete crock. He didn't switch builders....he bought this project because a friend helped facilitate it. He has since changed it utterly from its original condition, including cutting off the keel and installed bilge keels, and all of the attending structural changes. It is also going to be rigged as an unstayed junk. Large changes to accomodate that have also been made. If it manages the abuse that Mungo recieved, it will be impressive! IMHO, when other boats achieve the miles that BS's have on their hulls with as little problems, this discussion might have some merit. And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been increased. Steve Rankin PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! ge@... wrote: > The events were related to me as I stated. There were no witnesses that I know of other than the owner, so it is easy for the > record to get twisted over time. If Mungo had proven itself structurally sound, I can see no reason why the owner would switch > builders, yet he did. Here is a picture of Mungo II with the owner. > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Cruising/TG.htm > > Ron and I did Mungo II from the lines of the Lazy Bones. > > Skeg or keel, a failure is a failure, and it takes a pretty specialized camera to detect metal fatigue. Likely the first grounding > damaged the boat structurally through fatigue, leading to rapid failure of the boat on the second grounding. The fact that the > appendages did not fall off during the first grounding does not mean there was no damage - it just means the damage was not visible > to the eye. > > This event points directly to the reason that frames are added to metal boat. Making the skeg wider makes the skeg stronger, but it > was not the skeg that failed, it was the hull. You add frames in way of the skeg and keel to effectively make the hull thicker in > that area, without having to make the plating thicker. Otherwise, you have a weak point, be it skeg or keel, as Mungo has proven. > > The concern now should be identification and correction of all other boats with similar skeg/keel attachments as Mungo. I am > concerned that this failure has not been mentioned previously, as this silence has given a false impression of the structural > strength/integrity of frameless construction. I would expect that anyone with a similar boat should be very concerned. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:19 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > >>The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio in a >>totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded for >>16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed( >>too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft >>surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand >>every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the >>proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel >>dammage. I have photos of the event. >> The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was there >>deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her keel >>buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the >>hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the >>hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer >>reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her >>keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I bgan >>building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he >>wider skeg she would never have broken it. >> Brent Swain >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >>>Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in >> >>Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in >> >>>Baja. >>> >>>The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off >> >>successfully after a long delay. >> >>>The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel >> >>separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. >> >>>Greg Elliott >>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>Origami Magic >>>1990 Casano Drive >>>North Vancouver, BC >>>Canada V7J 2R2 >>>tel: 1-604-987-0050 >>>fax: 1-425-645-2756 >>>fax: 1-514-372-6832 >>>email: ge@e... >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "brentswain38" >>>To: >>>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks >>> >>> >>> >>>>It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the >> >>depth of >> >>>>the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank >>>>hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of >> >>the >> >>>>keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and >>>>keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally >>>>required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no >> >>floors or >> >>>>tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a >> >>west >> >>>>coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in >> >>such >> >>>>proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on >> >>paper, >> >>>>or theory.. >>>> Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste >> >>their >> >>>>time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding >> >>of >> >>>>the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. >>>> Brent Swain >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >>>> >>>>>Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through >> >>the >> >>>>skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy >>>> >>>>>hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and >> >>framing is >> >>>>strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add >>>> >>>>>localized structural members as required to take the loads of >> >>the >> >>>>keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel >>>> >>>>>results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, >> >>leading >> >>>>to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or >>>> >>>>>the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. >>>>> >>>>>I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that >>>> >>>>there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to >> >>safely >> >>>>>support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended >> >>for >> >>>>offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the >>>> >>>>>hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by >> >>removing >> >>>>the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard >>>> >>>>>to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal >>>> >>>>framing in the keel area. >>>> >>>>>For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, >> >>and >> >>>>carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors >>>> >>>>>would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not >> >>form >> >>>>puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the >>>> >>>>>full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks >> >>installed >> >>>>over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. >>>> >>>>>Greg Elliott >>>>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>>>Origami Magic >>>>>1990 Casano Drive >>>>>North Vancouver, BC >>>>>Canada V7J 2R2 >>>>>tel: 1-604-987-0050 >>>>>fax: 1-425-645-2756 >>>>>fax: 1-514-372-6832 >>>>>email: ge@e... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "brentswain38" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM >>>>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the >> >>curve of >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some >>>>>>transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or >> >>from >> >>>>the >>>> >>>>>>chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high >>>> >>>>aspect >>>> >>>>>>ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. >>>>>> Brent Swain >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Greg, >>>>>>>If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do >> >>you >> >>>>stop >>>> >>>>>>>the keel wobbling? >>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>Ted >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>> >>>>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>> >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >> >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4439|4257|2004-07-09 23:18:27|Michael Casling|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|That was the message I got from Brent's post. The skeg was strong enough and the hull had damage so on all subsequent boats he made the skeg wider which made the hull area stronger, and that should fix the problem. I was going to pose the question about the keel. On the single keel boats the keel is quite thick so I assume that a good thin foil has been sacrificed in the interests of strength. But if someone wants a better lift drag ratio type foil they could always build one and frame the hull accordingly. The whole discussion raises the point of what is sufficient and how strong should a boat be. There has to be a limit to everything and banging on hard rocks is going to wreck virtually any structure. I think the keel should survive solid groundings, but any hull will eventually be holed. My glass boat likely sooner than a steel boat yet I think that is acceptable. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Rankin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been increased. Steve Rankin PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4440|4257|2004-07-10 00:15:21|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|People have millions of reasons why they do things, some spoken, some otherwise. I was away sailing, so I can't say what the events were. I know that if I had a boat that survived as initially reported, I'd kneel down and kiss the designers feet, and never buy anything from anyone else. Obviously this did not happen. In the better part of a year on this group I have heard many repeated stories that suggested that there had never been any structural failures due to frameless construction. We heard repeatedly of the successes, with not one word of failure. This latest revelation hardly suggest this has been an honest accounting. It could well be there have been other problems, and just like now, they have not be talked about. We have heard lots about the problems with transverse members welded to the hull on other boats, only to discover they exist in origami. Could be you are simply as ill informed as the rest of us. Doubling the width of the skeg at the very best reduces the hull loads by 50%, more likely less, because the failure did not take place immediately at the skeg. The effect could well be negligible. This is not a significant increase in the safety factor after a failure. The reduction is certainly not a cube function. We spend 3 months on Palmyra, at which time I was running a MM Ham net between Samoa and Hawaii. We had two vessels lost in that time. One disappeared without a trace, another was at 44 foot ketch, lost because the hull fatigued next to the skeg. The entire crew had been bailing with buckets, 24 hours a day, for two days before we got them off. This type of failure in metal boats is well known, as is the solution. Excuses are for shore folk. They are not something to be accepted offshore. There is a problem, and the time has come to drop the dogma and fix the problem properly. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rankin" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > As a good friend of Godfreys and having followed this project plus a few > others of his, I can assure this list that the suggestion that he > switched builders because of the structural issues is a complete crock. > He didn't switch builders....he bought this project because a friend > helped facilitate it. He has since changed it utterly from its original > condition, including cutting off the keel and installed bilge keels, and > all of the attending structural changes. It is also going to be rigged > as an unstayed junk. Large changes to accomodate that have also been > made. If it manages the abuse that Mungo recieved, it will be > impressive! IMHO, when other boats achieve the miles that BS's have on > their hulls with as little problems, this discussion might have some > merit. And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the > adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been increased. > > > Steve Rankin > PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! > > ge@... wrote: > > The events were related to me as I stated. There were no witnesses that I know of other than the owner, so it is easy for the > > record to get twisted over time. If Mungo had proven itself structurally sound, I can see no reason why the owner would switch > > builders, yet he did. Here is a picture of Mungo II with the owner. > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Cruising/TG.htm > > > > Ron and I did Mungo II from the lines of the Lazy Bones. > > > > Skeg or keel, a failure is a failure, and it takes a pretty specialized camera to detect metal fatigue. Likely the first grounding > > damaged the boat structurally through fatigue, leading to rapid failure of the boat on the second grounding. The fact that the > > appendages did not fall off during the first grounding does not mean there was no damage - it just means the damage was not visible > > to the eye. > > > > This event points directly to the reason that frames are added to metal boat. Making the skeg wider makes the skeg stronger, but it > > was not the skeg that failed, it was the hull. You add frames in way of the skeg and keel to effectively make the hull thicker in > > that area, without having to make the plating thicker. Otherwise, you have a weak point, be it skeg or keel, as Mungo has proven. > > > > The concern now should be identification and correction of all other boats with similar skeg/keel attachments as Mungo. I am > > concerned that this failure has not been mentioned previously, as this silence has given a false impression of the structural > > strength/integrity of frameless construction. I would expect that anyone with a similar boat should be very concerned. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:19 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > > >>The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio in a > >>totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded for > >>16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed( > >>too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft > >>surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand > >>every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the > >>proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel > >>dammage. I have photos of the event. > >> The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was there > >>deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her keel > >>buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the > >>hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the > >>hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer > >>reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her > >>keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I bgan > >>building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he > >>wider skeg she would never have broken it. > >> Brent Swain > >> > >> > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> > >>>Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in > >> > >>Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in > >> > >>>Baja. > >>> > >>>The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off > >> > >>successfully after a long delay. > >> > >>>The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel > >> > >>separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. > >> > >>>Greg Elliott > >>>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>>Origami Magic > >>>1990 Casano Drive > >>>North Vancouver, BC > >>>Canada V7J 2R2 > >>>tel: 1-604-987-0050 > >>>fax: 1-425-645-2756 > >>>fax: 1-514-372-6832 > >>>email: ge@e... > >>> > >>> > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "brentswain38" > >>>To: > >>>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM > >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the > >> > >>depth of > >> > >>>>the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank > >>>>hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of > >> > >>the > >> > >>>>keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and > >>>>keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally > >>>>required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no > >> > >>floors or > >> > >>>>tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a > >> > >>west > >> > >>>>coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in > >> > >>such > >> > >>>>proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on > >> > >>paper, > >> > >>>>or theory.. > >>>> Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste > >> > >>their > >> > >>>>time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding > >> > >>of > >> > >>>>the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. > >>>> Brent Swain > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through > >> > >>the > >> > >>>>skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy > >>>> > >>>>>hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and > >> > >>framing is > >> > >>>>strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add > >>>> > >>>>>localized structural members as required to take the loads of > >> > >>the > >> > >>>>keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel > >>>> > >>>>>results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, > >> > >>leading > >> > >>>>to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or > >>>> > >>>>>the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. > >>>>> > >>>>>I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that > >>>> > >>>>there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to > >> > >>safely > >> > >>>>>support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended > >> > >>for > >> > >>>>offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the > >>>> > >>>>>hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by > >> > >>removing > >> > >>>>the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard > >>>> > >>>>>to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal > >>>> > >>>>framing in the keel area. > >>>> > >>>>>For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, > >> > >>and > >> > >>>>carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors > >>>> > >>>>>would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not > >> > >>form > >> > >>>>puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the > >>>> > >>>>>full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks > >> > >>installed > >> > >>>>over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. > >>>> > >>>>>Greg Elliott > >>>>>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>>>>Origami Magic > >>>>>1990 Casano Drive > >>>>>North Vancouver, BC > >>>>>Canada V7J 2R2 > >>>>>tel: 1-604-987-0050 > >>>>>fax: 1-425-645-2756 > >>>>>fax: 1-514-372-6832 > >>>>>email: ge@e... > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>From: "brentswain38" > >>>>>To: > >>>>>Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM > >>>>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the > >> > >>curve of > >> > >>>>the > >>>> > >>>>>>keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some > >>>>>>transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or > >> > >>from > >> > >>>>the > >>>> > >>>>>>chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high > >>>> > >>>>aspect > >>>> > >>>>>>ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. > >>>>>> Brent Swain > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>>wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>Greg, > >>>>>>>If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do > >> > >>you > >> > >>>>stop > >>>> > >>>>>>>the keel wobbling? > >>>>>>>Regards, > >>>>>>>Ted > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >>>> > >>>>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>> > >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >> > >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4441|4433|2004-07-10 01:14:32|brian vezina|Re: Hull strength|Martin: I got a new Isuzu 35hp. with a twin disk mg360 gear recently from Klassen diesel just outside of Vancouver, the twin disk was about $1400, much cheaper than the Hurth and Klassen gave great service. Brian --- prairiemaidca wrote: > Hi All: I'm finding the dialogue on the question of > strength very > interesting but I haven't seen a comment on the > effect the foam and > the interior of the boat, has on the overall > strength. As for > welding rod I have used 308 for stainless to > stainless and 309 for > mild to stainless on Prairie Maid. Since she has a > stainless bulwark > pipe I've made all my rig attachments out of quite > large pieces of > stainless and can't imagine them failing. On > another note I'm > wondering if anyone can tell me the aprox. cost new > of a borg warner > velvet drive or the twin disc transmission that was > mentioned, and > who are some honest dealers in Western Canada... > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 4442|4257|2004-07-10 03:35:26|Steve Rankin|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|ge@... wrote: > People have millions of reasons why they do things, some spoken, some otherwise. I was away sailing, so I can't say what the events > were. I know that if I had a boat that survived as initially reported, I'd kneel down and kiss the designers feet, and never buy > anything from anyone else. Obviously this did not happen. > I told you why he bought that hull, and how much it was modified. I also know how much he thought of Mungo, which was the first of Brents 36 footers built, what, maybe 15 years ago. > In the better part of a year on this group I have heard many repeated stories that suggested that there had never been any > structural failures due to frameless construction. We heard repeatedly of the successes, with not one word of failure. This latest > revelation hardly suggest this has been an honest accounting. I'm not clear on what the revelation is that you are refering to? Or what dishonesty.... > It could well be there have been other problems, and just like now, they have not be talked about. We have heard lots about the > problems with transverse members welded to the hull on other boats, only to discover they exist in origami. Could be you are simply > as ill informed as the rest of us. I doubt after reading your recent posts that that is possible.. > Doubling the width of the skeg at the very best reduces the hull loads by 50%, more likely less, because the failure did not take > place immediately at the skeg. The effect could well be negligible. This is not a significant increase in the safety factor after > a failure. The reduction is certainly not a cube function. Reducing stresses by 50% can hardly be considered negligible. Did someone suggest the stress reduction was a cube function? > > We spend 3 months on Palmyra, at which time I was running a MM Ham net between Samoa and Hawaii. We had two vessels lost in that > time. One disappeared without a trace, another was at 44 foot ketch, lost because the hull fatigued next to the skeg. The entire > crew had been bailing with buckets, 24 hours a day, for two days before we got them off. > This type of failure in metal boats is well known, as is the solution. Excuses are for shore folk. They are not something to be > accepted offshore. There is a problem, and the time has come to drop the dogma and fix the problem properly. And the one that disapeared without a trace...To suggest its loss was a result of this "type of failure" is a little presumptious, wouldn't you say? I don't know to what excuses and dogma you refer to or to what problem you suggest needs fixing. It seems that you have more interest in suggesting that you do it better than contributing to what might otherwise help someone sort the wheat from the chaff. Cheers Steve Rankin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Rankin" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > >>As a good friend of Godfreys and having followed this project plus a few >>others of his, I can assure this list that the suggestion that he >>switched builders because of the structural issues is a complete crock. >>He didn't switch builders....he bought this project because a friend >>helped facilitate it. He has since changed it utterly from its original >>condition, including cutting off the keel and installed bilge keels, and >>all of the attending structural changes. It is also going to be rigged >>as an unstayed junk. Large changes to accomodate that have also been >>made. If it manages the abuse that Mungo recieved, it will be >>impressive! IMHO, when other boats achieve the miles that BS's have on >>their hulls with as little problems, this discussion might have some >>merit. And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the >>adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been increased. >> >> >>Steve Rankin >>PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! >> >>ge@... wrote: >> >>>The events were related to me as I stated. There were no witnesses that I know of other than the owner, so it is easy for the >>>record to get twisted over time. If Mungo had proven itself structurally sound, I can see no reason why the owner would switch >>>builders, yet he did. Here is a picture of Mungo II with the owner. >>> >>>http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Cruising/TG.htm >>> >>>Ron and I did Mungo II from the lines of the Lazy Bones. >>> >>>Skeg or keel, a failure is a failure, and it takes a pretty specialized camera to detect metal fatigue. Likely the first > > grounding > >>>damaged the boat structurally through fatigue, leading to rapid failure of the boat on the second grounding. The fact that the >>>appendages did not fall off during the first grounding does not mean there was no damage - it just means the damage was not > > visible > >>>to the eye. >>> >>>This event points directly to the reason that frames are added to metal boat. Making the skeg wider makes the skeg stronger, > > but it > >>>was not the skeg that failed, it was the hull. You add frames in way of the skeg and keel to effectively make the hull thicker > > in > >>>that area, without having to make the plating thicker. Otherwise, you have a weak point, be it skeg or keel, as Mungo has > > proven. > >>>The concern now should be identification and correction of all other boats with similar skeg/keel attachments as Mungo. I am >>>concerned that this failure has not been mentioned previously, as this silence has given a false impression of the structural >>>strength/integrity of frameless construction. I would expect that anyone with a similar boat should be very concerned. >>> >>>Greg Elliott >>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "brentswain38" >>>To: >>>Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:19 PM >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The first time Mungo hit the beach was just south of San Ignatio in a >>>>totally exposed part of the west coats of the Bja and was pounded for >>>>16 days by 8 ft surf , while her keel was buried in the hard packed( >>>>too hard to leave a footprint) sand. She was winched off thru 8 ft >>>>surf, constantly being lifted 8 ft and dropped 8 ft onto the sand >>>>every wave for 1/4 mile , breaking a half inch wire rope in the >>>>proccess.They tightened the rigging and sailed back to BC.No keel >>>>dammage. I have photos of the event. >>>> The second time she hit just north of Todos Santos . She was there >>>>deveral days , again being hit with a large shore break with her keel >>>>buried in hard sand before her skeg began to break away from the >>>>hull. a crack forming about half an inch out from the skeg on the >>>>hull plate.The owner abandoned her and severl years later a surfer >>>>reported seeing her regurgitated from the sand still intact . Her >>>>keel never suffered any structural dammmage. That was before I bgan >>>>building the skeg 4 inches wide instead of 2 inches wide. With he >>>>wider skeg she would never have broken it. >>>> Brent Swain >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Further on Mungo, the BS36 that Godfrey put up on the beach in >>>> >>>>Baja. The revised report I have is that it went aground twice in >>>> >>>> >>>>>Baja. >>>>> >>>>>The first time was in a shelter area, and the boat was taken off >>>> >>>>successfully after a long delay. >>>> >>>> >>>>>The second time the boat was pounded in the surf, the keel >>>> >>>>separated along the garboard seam, and Mungo was lost. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Greg Elliott >>>>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>>>Origami Magic >>>>>1990 Casano Drive >>>>>North Vancouver, BC >>>>>Canada V7J 2R2 >>>>>tel: 1-604-987-0050 >>>>>fax: 1-425-645-2756 >>>>>fax: 1-514-372-6832 >>>>>email: ge@e... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "brentswain38" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:15 PM >>>>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>It all depends on the length of the keel attachement and the >>>> >>>>depth of >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the deadrise of the hull. In my singlke keeled hulls the watertank >>>>>>hase fore and aft ends which act as floors, but with the top of >>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>keel being 12 ft long at the garboard seam, and both the hull and >>>>>>keel having a lot of curve there , they are not structurally >>>>>>required. This was proven when one of my 36 footers with no >>>> >>>>floors or >>>> >>>> >>>>>>tanks on the centreline was ponded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on a >>>> >>>>west >>>> >>>> >>>>>>coast baja beach with no keel problems.I have far more faith in >>>> >>>>such >>>> >>>> >>>>>>proven torture tests than I would have in a set of numbers on >>>> >>>>paper, >>>> >>>> >>>>>>or theory.. >>>>>> Much of the structural nonsense bits and pieces people waste >>>> >>>>their >>>> >>>> >>>>>>time and money on comes from their complete lack of understanding >>>> >>>>of >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the effect of shape on structural rigidity and strength. >>>>>> Brent Swain >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Typically you do not want to support the force of keel through >>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>skin of the hull, as this results in the need for an overly heavy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>hull. You typically design a metal boat so the hull and >>>> >>>>framing is >>>> >>>> >>>>>>strong enough to resist the force of the water, and then add >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>localized structural members as required to take the loads of >>>> >>>>the >>>> >>>> >>>>>>keel, mast, engine, rudder, etc. To do otherwise on the keel >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>results in a stress concentration at the hull/keel joint, >>>> >>>>leading >>>> >>>> >>>>>>to premature and catastrophic failure of the hull over time, or >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>the need to use very thick hull and keel plating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I doubt that any accurate engineering analysis would show that >>>>>> >>>>>>there was sufficient strength in a 3/16" steel hull alone to >>>> >>>>safely >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>support a ballasted keel over time, in a 10 ton yacht intended >>>> >>>>for >>>> >>>> >>>>>>offshore service, regardless of hull shape. Especially if the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>hull has already been weakened locally in the keel area by >>>> >>>>removing >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the longitudinal framing to install integral tanks. It is hard >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>to see how it make sense structurally to remove the longitudinal >>>>>> >>>>>>framing in the keel area. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>For safety we would routinely install deep floors in any keel, >>>> >>>>and >>>> >>>> >>>>>>carry the loads well out to the longitudinal framing. The floors >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>would not be welded to the hull, rather offset, so they do not >>>> >>>>form >>>> >>>> >>>>>>puncture points. The longitudinal framing would be carried the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>full length of the boat, with removable/serviceable tanks >>>> >>>>installed >>>> >>>> >>>>>>over, after the hull interior has been painted and foamed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Greg Elliott >>>>>>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>>>>>>Origami Magic >>>>>>>1990 Casano Drive >>>>>>>North Vancouver, BC >>>>>>>Canada V7J 2R2 >>>>>>>tel: 1-604-987-0050 >>>>>>>fax: 1-425-645-2756 >>>>>>>fax: 1-514-372-6832 >>>>>>>email: ge@e... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>From: "brentswain38" >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:49 PM >>>>>>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On single keel the curve of the bottom plate meeting the >>>> >>>>curve of >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>keel sides gives tremendous rigidity. On twin keelers some >>>>>>>>transverse webs either from the chine to the centreline or >>>> >>>>from >>>> >>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>chine to the built in centreline tank are needed . For a high >>>>>> >>>>>>aspect >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>ratio hull with a short fin keel some floors are required. >>>>>>>> Brent Swain >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Greg, >>>>>>>>>If you don't have transverce frames in your designs how do >>>> >>>>you >>>> >>>> >>>>>>stop >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>the keel wobbling? >>>>>>>>>Regards, >>>>>>>>>Ted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>>>> >>>>>>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>> >>>>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>> >>>> >>>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4443|4257|2004-07-10 03:37:19|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Micheal, making the skeg wider does not make the hull stronger! Yes, the wider you make it, the less load in cantilever on the plating, until you would widen the top of skeg or keel so far that it becomes a wide V and actuallay a continuation of the hull rather than an atached shape... That is why on Brents V hulls this is stronger than on a flatter bottom, but again, you would not want to define the hydrodynamic shape of hull AND keel because of the way you attach them to each other. This was justified in wodden construction, but there is no need for that in metal boats. On a steel boat ALL the major loads (Keel, skeg, chainplates, mast compression) should carry primarily on the structure, not on the plating, because that is where you can place immense overkill strength without sifnificant penalty in weight. Then you add the skin just right to keep the water and the occasional container or rock out and in that area you may then make compromises depending on your program (racing, coastal, long distance..) In the case of a boat that has no traverse frames AND the keel welded to the plating means that you have an absolutely rigid element (the full keel) working in cantilever against a more or less flexible element(the hull), because when you decided do do away with the frames that was exactly to archive this effect to have the entire hull flex in case of a collision, rather than offer strong points, no?. Even when just sailing this must over time fatigue the area right next to the weld on the hull side, as this is also an area where due to the welding process we may have a weakening of the steel. I am convinced that metal analysis of samples from boats build like that that have been extensively sailed will show signs of fatigue in the hull plating right next to the keel-weld even before they hit their first beach - of course, as Brent suggests, more so with a narrower keel and higher aspect than with a very short and wide keel, but nonetheless. Anecdotical evidence that there have been no problems on many boats over many miles, collisions and rocks does NOT prove anything. Evidence that there HAVE been some problems with exactly these symptoms - the case of Mungoo cited here, another case I mentioned here myself earlier of a keel coming off in a similar situation (which by the way indirectly lead to loss of life later) and other cases mentioned - DOES prove something. And again: WHY NOT fix the appendices through the hull to the structure? It can not be because it will add another working day to an otherwise revolutionary fast assembly method, so WHY NOT do it the way the vast majority of designers would prescribe rather than sitting there on a potential timebomb and wondering if you did the right thing next time you hear that someone lost a keel or skeg. Gerd The YAGO PROJECT http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > That was the message I got from Brent's post. The skeg was strong enough and the hull had damage so on all subsequent boats he made the skeg wider which made the hull area stronger, and that should fix the problem. I was going to pose the question about the keel. On the single keel boats the keel is quite thick so I assume that a good thin foil has been sacrificed in the interests of strength. But if someone wants a better lift drag ratio type foil they could always build one and frame the hull accordingly. The whole discussion raises the point of what is sufficient and how strong should a boat be. There has to be a limit to everything and banging on hard rocks is going to wreck virtually any structure. I think the keel should survive solid groundings, but any hull will eventually be holed. My glass boat likely sooner than a steel boat yet I think that is acceptable. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Rankin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the > adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been increased. > > > Steve Rankin > PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4444|4257|2004-07-10 04:59:44|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|..And Steve: Hens don't lay eggs with keels ;-) Glue a nail with it's head on an egg and push sideways. If Mother nature would have designed naily eggs, she could have 1) made soft nails that will bend (unlike our keels) but not break 2) make a soft egg that will not fatigue and break even after being bent many times 3) make an egg with a structure and hard nail strong enough to throw and nail it to a wall as well as a strong deformable skin to take a serious punch without spilling it's guts - which is exatly what we can do easily, cheaply and without any negative effects on our metal boats. But realizing that either carpenters or hens would be very unhappy with the concept she probably just gave up on it. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > That was the message I got from Brent's post. The skeg was strong enough and the hull had damage so on all subsequent boats he made the skeg wider which made the hull area stronger, and that should fix the problem. I was going to pose the question about the keel. On the single keel boats the keel is quite thick so I assume that a good thin foil has been sacrificed in the interests of strength. But if someone wants a better lift drag ratio type foil they could always build one and frame the hull accordingly. The whole discussion raises the point of what is sufficient and how strong should a boat be. There has to be a limit to everything and banging on hard rocks is going to wreck virtually any structure. I think the keel should survive solid groundings, but any hull will eventually be holed. My glass boat likely sooner than a steel boat yet I think that is acceptable. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Steve Rankin > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the > adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been increased. > > > Steve Rankin > PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4445|4275|2004-07-10 10:31:36|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|The strength is not proportional to the cube. Cube relationships are for circular sections, such as masts, where 2 dimensions are increased at the same time, as a result of increasing the diameter. Cube relationships do not hold for situations in which you increase only one dimension. Using the wrong formula has resulted in a overestimation of the strength of the attachment. If this error has been propagated throughout the boat, other areas could well be under-strength. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > One of my 36 footers pounded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on the west > coast of the baja, with one transverse web accross the keel with no > keel dammage even tho the keel was buried in the hard packed sand for > almost the whole time. Another pounded accross 200 yards of Fijian > coral reef with no visible dammage even tho all the paint was pounded > off. When something is so well proven over many years , and many > extreme torture tests, one would look a bit foolish saying " It won't > work." > The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > results in eight times the strength. > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Framing is added to steel boats so that no part of the boat is > weaker than the rest. The level arm between the hull and keel > > results in a loading force at the garboard seam much greater than > the forces typical in the rest of the hull, creating a weak spot > > in the boat. It is predictable the boat will fail at this point, > unless the plating is overly heavy. > > > > People build steel boats for strength. A properly designed and > built steel boat should be able to sit on a reef and be crushed > > beyond recognition, without the keel falling off. Not simply > dented - which can happen relatively easily in steel. > > > > There is nothing about steel that would prevent this, if the keel > is attached as strongly to the hull as all other parts of the > > boat. Consider automobile crashes. We don't see major structural > parts fall off steel cars in collisions (except the rubber > > mounted bits). Only at very high speed, with energy levels much > greater than a boat pounding on a reef. > > > > Otherwise, the steel boat is no better than FG or wood, and could > in fact be much weaker, while being much heavier. In fact, a > > typical FG or wood boat, built as heavy as steel, would not loose a > keel before the rest of the hull was destroyed. > > > > It is a mistake to assume that because steel is a strong material, > it is structurally strong. Steel plating, because it must be > > kept thin to reduce weight, is weak in the direction of curvature, > and will bend to avoid the load, leading to fatigue and failure. > > Framing is used to prevent steel from bending to avoid the load, > thus preventing fatigue and failure. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats > under 60 > > > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > > > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > > > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > > > Brent swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > > > wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not > synonymous > > > with > > > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with > the > > > origami > > > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come > back in > > > and fit > > > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > > > install > > > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) > is > > > that the > > > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > > > plating then to > > > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > > > savings > > > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > > > drafting > > > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > > > electronic > > > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the > steel > > > supplier > > > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > > > material. > > > > > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > > > completed boat > > > > discussions well. > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4446|4409|2004-07-10 11:05:11|Phil S.|Re: This Group|I have to agree completely, I want to thank everyone that offered to show me around on my recent jaunt to Vancouver. What a beautiful place, I can completely understand the attraction. Regards Phil| 4447|4275|2004-07-10 11:24:38|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength/thickness|The last part may be a bit offside. There is no proof of this, and not even enough evidence to suggest it. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ge@... To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness The strength is not proportional to the cube. Cube relationships are for circular sections, such as masts, where 2 dimensions are increased at the same time, as a result of increasing the diameter. Cube relationships do not hold for situations in which you increase only one dimension. Using the wrong formula has resulted in a overestimation of the strength of the attachment. If this error has been propagated throughout the boat, other areas could well be under-strength. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:11 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > One of my 36 footers pounded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on the west > coast of the baja, with one transverse web accross the keel with no > keel dammage even tho the keel was buried in the hard packed sand for > almost the whole time. Another pounded accross 200 yards of Fijian > coral reef with no visible dammage even tho all the paint was pounded > off. When something is so well proven over many years , and many > extreme torture tests, one would look a bit foolish saying " It won't > work." > The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > results in eight times the strength. > Brent Swain > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Framing is added to steel boats so that no part of the boat is > weaker than the rest. The level arm between the hull and keel > > results in a loading force at the garboard seam much greater than > the forces typical in the rest of the hull, creating a weak spot > > in the boat. It is predictable the boat will fail at this point, > unless the plating is overly heavy. > > > > People build steel boats for strength. A properly designed and > built steel boat should be able to sit on a reef and be crushed > > beyond recognition, without the keel falling off. Not simply > dented - which can happen relatively easily in steel. > > > > There is nothing about steel that would prevent this, if the keel > is attached as strongly to the hull as all other parts of the > > boat. Consider automobile crashes. We don't see major structural > parts fall off steel cars in collisions (except the rubber > > mounted bits). Only at very high speed, with energy levels much > greater than a boat pounding on a reef. > > > > Otherwise, the steel boat is no better than FG or wood, and could > in fact be much weaker, while being much heavier. In fact, a > > typical FG or wood boat, built as heavy as steel, would not loose a > keel before the rest of the hull was destroyed. > > > > It is a mistake to assume that because steel is a strong material, > it is structurally strong. Steel plating, because it must be > > kept thin to reduce weight, is weak in the direction of curvature, > and will bend to avoid the load, leading to fatigue and failure. > > Framing is used to prevent steel from bending to avoid the load, > thus preventing fatigue and failure. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:23 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats > under 60 > > > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > > > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > > > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > > > Brent swain > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > > > wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not > synonymous > > > with > > > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with > the > > > origami > > > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come > back in > > > and fit > > > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > > > install > > > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) > is > > > that the > > > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > > > plating then to > > > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > > > savings > > > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > > > drafting > > > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > > > electronic > > > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the > steel > > > supplier > > > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > > > material. > > > > > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > > > completed boat > > > > discussions well. > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4448|4275|2004-07-10 14:19:56|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength/thickness|correction, change: "has resulted" to "can result". The emails appeared to me to be saying that the cube relationship was used to judge the strength of attachment, which would result in an overestimation of the strength. Not just at the skeg, but the keel, and any other members subject to load, where this rule had been misapplied. Having witnessed good friends lost over the years offshore, I don't have much patience for mincing words over practices that put other people's lives at risk. Hull failure at the skeg attachment in metal boats is well documented. It is a proven killer of both people and boats. There is no excuse for one sided promotion of frameless construction. It directly puts peoples lives at risk, and for what end? The problem is a simple, quick, and cheap to correct during construction. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Casling" To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:14 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > The last part may be a bit offside. There is no proof of this, and not even enough evidence to suggest it. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ge@... > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 7:30 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > The strength is not proportional to the cube. Cube relationships are for circular sections, such as masts, where 2 dimensions are > increased at the same time, as a result of increasing the diameter. Cube relationships do not hold for situations in which you > increase only one dimension. > > Using the wrong formula has resulted in a overestimation of the strength of the attachment. If this error has been propagated > throughout the boat, other areas could well be under-strength. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 1:11 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > > One of my 36 footers pounded for 16 days in 8 ft surf on the west > > coast of the baja, with one transverse web accross the keel with no > > keel dammage even tho the keel was buried in the hard packed sand for > > almost the whole time. Another pounded accross 200 yards of Fijian > > coral reef with no visible dammage even tho all the paint was pounded > > off. When something is so well proven over many years , and many > > extreme torture tests, one would look a bit foolish saying " It won't > > work." > > The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > > results in eight times the strength. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Framing is added to steel boats so that no part of the boat is > > weaker than the rest. The level arm between the hull and keel > > > results in a loading force at the garboard seam much greater than > > the forces typical in the rest of the hull, creating a weak spot > > > in the boat. It is predictable the boat will fail at this point, > > unless the plating is overly heavy. > > > > > > People build steel boats for strength. A properly designed and > > built steel boat should be able to sit on a reef and be crushed > > > beyond recognition, without the keel falling off. Not simply > > dented - which can happen relatively easily in steel. > > > > > > There is nothing about steel that would prevent this, if the keel > > is attached as strongly to the hull as all other parts of the > > > boat. Consider automobile crashes. We don't see major structural > > parts fall off steel cars in collisions (except the rubber > > > mounted bits). Only at very high speed, with energy levels much > > greater than a boat pounding on a reef. > > > > > > Otherwise, the steel boat is no better than FG or wood, and could > > in fact be much weaker, while being much heavier. In fact, a > > > typical FG or wood boat, built as heavy as steel, would not loose a > > keel before the rest of the hull was destroyed. > > > > > > It is a mistake to assume that because steel is a strong material, > > it is structurally strong. Steel plating, because it must be > > > kept thin to reduce weight, is weak in the direction of curvature, > > and will bend to avoid the load, leading to fatigue and failure. > > > Framing is used to prevent steel from bending to avoid the load, > > thus preventing fatigue and failure. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 1:23 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength/thickness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frames are completely structuraly irrelevant in steel boats > > under 60 > > > > ft. There is no way you could frame and plate a 36 ft hull in two > > > > days using traditional methods even with computer cutting, and the > > > > result built by an amateur would be nowhere near as good a hull. > > > > Brent swain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr" > > > > wrote: > > > > > Gerd, > > > > > > > > > > While I agree with you that origami boat building is not > > synonymous > > > > with > > > > > 'frameless' most, if not all, of the time savings involved with > > the > > > > origami > > > > > method of building boats goes away if you then have to come > > back in > > > > and fit > > > > > frames to an origami hull. It is very time consuming to fit and > > > > install > > > > > frames in a completed hull. > > > > > > > > > > One of the time savings of building over frames (and bulkheads) > > is > > > > that the > > > > > frames can be cut to shape from the lofted plan allowing the > > > > plating then to > > > > > be precisely laid over the frames. There is an even greater time > > > > savings > > > > > when the hull has been computer drafted.With the new computer > > > > drafting > > > > > methods the framing and hull plating the computer can produce > > > > electronic > > > > > cutting patterns and stacking plans that can be used by the > > steel > > > > supplier > > > > > with computer driven cutters saving time, often cost, and waste > > > > material. > > > > > > > > > > I also will avoid the merits of frame vs. frameless in the > > > > completed boat > > > > > discussions well. > > > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4449|4449|2004-07-10 15:45:05|spencerj71|Strenght Related to Cube of Width|There seems to be some discussion about this. Here are Brent's words: "The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) results in eight times the strength." Brent Swain This is not correct. As discussed in previous postings, doubling the width of the keel reduces the attachment load by 50%. Assuming everything else is equal (big assumption), then this would mean double the strength and a linearly proportional relationship. With regards to the strength of the keel itself (not the attachment), the strength of the keel is proportional to the square of the width, not the cube (I think Brent meant cube not cube root). The moment of inertia of the keel does go up as a funcion of the cube of its width. - Spencer| 4450|4450|2004-07-10 16:10:04|Robert Gainer|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|Does this mean that if I double it again it also drops by 50% and is now at 25% of the original load? I think that there is more involved than just the width of the attachment to the hull. Bob >From: "spencerj71" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Strenght Related to Cube of Width >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:43:50 -0000 > >There seems to be some discussion about this. Here are Brent's words: > >"The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the >width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in >strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) >results in eight times the strength." >Brent Swain > >This is not correct. As discussed in previous postings, doubling the >width of the keel reduces the attachment load by 50%. Assuming >everything else is equal (big assumption), then this would mean >double the strength and a linearly proportional relationship. > >With regards to the strength of the keel itself (not the attachment), >the strength of the keel is proportional to the square of the width, >not the cube (I think Brent meant cube not cube root). The moment of >inertia of the keel does go up as a funcion of the cube of its width. > >- Spencer > > _________________________________________________________________ Check out the latest news, polls and tools in the MSN 2004 Election Guide! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx| 4451|4449|2004-07-10 16:28:27|Gerd|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|I just found in the Metalboat Society group/skeg hung rudders forum:problems & failures several postings, too long to repeat here, but well worth looking up. http://www.metalboatsociety.com/ The entire thread there is very interesting, beginning with a long detailed posting by the admin Brian Young regarding failures on Roberts boats that have led to loss at sea (!) "...The first step in insuring structural integrity in this area is to make sure that the huge cyclic loads imposed by a skeg/rudder are transferred directly to a well designed framework, and not simply to the bottom shell...." In dec. 2001 Brent posted in this thread "...The weakest point is where they join the hull and the stresses on the skeg do a nearly 90 degree turn. The best way to avoid this problem is to run the skeg right through the hull and a foot inside the hull, through several wide transverse webs..." Is this how the BS range is build, and did I maybe misunderstand something here? Gerd| 4452|4449|2004-07-10 17:05:10|Gerd|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|Spencer, Brent clearly means cube root. In his book he writes: "if one doubles the width of the skeg the stiffness is increased by the cube root of the width and the skeg is eight times as strong" and he says something to the same effect in the metal boat society forum on skeg problems. In his book he advises to weld the skeg to the hull and then brace the inside of the hull with two traverse webs, in the MBS forum he advises to slot it into the hull and to traverse framing or to weld an internal continuation (what Brian calls a loop) of the skeg. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > There seems to be some discussion about this. Here are Brent's words: > > "The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > results in eight times the strength." > Brent Swain > > This is not correct. As discussed in previous postings, doubling the > width of the keel reduces the attachment load by 50%. Assuming > everything else is equal (big assumption), then this would mean > double the strength and a linearly proportional relationship. > > With regards to the strength of the keel itself (not the attachment), > the strength of the keel is proportional to the square of the width, > not the cube (I think Brent meant cube not cube root). The moment of > inertia of the keel does go up as a funcion of the cube of its width. > > - Spencer | 4453|4450|2004-07-10 18:00:36|spencerj71|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|Yes, you're right there are a lot of assumptions here. This scenario would apply to a boat where the keel is welded to the hull (not slotted through) and the primary failure mode is the keel ripping off sideways (athwartship load). If that's the case and you don't change anything besides the keel width, then the load does decrease like you state, not really more complicated than that. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > Does this mean that if I double it again it also drops by 50% and is now at > 25% of the original load? I think that there is more involved than just the > width of the attachment to the hull. > Bob > > > >From: "spencerj71" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Strenght Related to Cube of Width > >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:43:50 -0000 > > > >There seems to be some discussion about this. Here are Brent's words: > > > >"The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > >width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > >strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > >results in eight times the strength." > >Brent Swain > > > >This is not correct. As discussed in previous postings, doubling the > >width of the keel reduces the attachment load by 50%. Assuming > >everything else is equal (big assumption), then this would mean > >double the strength and a linearly proportional relationship. > > > >With regards to the strength of the keel itself (not the attachment), > >the strength of the keel is proportional to the square of the width, > >not the cube (I think Brent meant cube not cube root). The moment of > >inertia of the keel does go up as a funcion of the cube of its width. > > > >- Spencer > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Check out the latest news, polls and tools in the MSN 2004 Election Guide! > http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx | 4454|4449|2004-07-10 18:04:28|spencerj71|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|Gerd, That statement is contrdictory. The cube root of 2 is approximately 1.26, meaning a 26% increase in strength. The cube of 2 is 8. I think that was a typo. Sounds like he has a good attachment mechanism. I'll have to buy the book. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Spencer, Brent clearly means cube root. In his book he writes: "if > one doubles the width of the skeg the stiffness is increased by the > cube root of the width and the skeg is eight times as strong" and he > says something to the same effect in the metal boat society forum on > skeg problems. > In his book he advises to weld the skeg to the hull and then brace > the inside of the hull with two traverse webs, in the MBS forum he > advises to slot it into the hull and to traverse framing or to weld > an internal continuation (what Brian calls a loop) of the skeg. > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > There seems to be some discussion about this. Here are Brent's > words: > > > > "The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase in > > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > > results in eight times the strength." > > Brent Swain > > > > This is not correct. As discussed in previous postings, doubling > the > > width of the keel reduces the attachment load by 50%. Assuming > > everything else is equal (big assumption), then this would mean > > double the strength and a linearly proportional relationship. > > > > With regards to the strength of the keel itself (not the > attachment), > > the strength of the keel is proportional to the square of the > width, > > not the cube (I think Brent meant cube not cube root). The moment > of > > inertia of the keel does go up as a funcion of the cube of its > width. > > > > - Spencer | 4455|4449|2004-07-10 18:43:47|brentswain38|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|You're right .I meant the strength goes up by the cube of the width.My mistake. Another way of reinforcing the skeg is to put a piece of halfinch plate inside the skeg running thru the hull to lap onto the transverse web, after cutting out the aperture , before pulling it together when you can still reach thru the aperture cutout and weld this half inch plate to the sides of the skeg. This should be far enough foreward to let you pull the sides of the aperture together and high enough to clear the stern tube. A stronger way to connect the transverse webs to the twin keels would be to run gussets from the bottom of the webs to the insides of the keels. Typos are hard to correct when you are using a library computer with a half hour time limit. It's either send the message ,typos and all ,or not send it at all. I think most people would prefer I do the former. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Gerd, > > That statement is contrdictory. The cube root of 2 is approximately > 1.26, meaning a 26% increase in strength. The cube of 2 is 8. I > think that was a typo. > > Sounds like he has a good attachment mechanism. I'll have to buy the > book. > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Spencer, Brent clearly means cube root. In his book he writes: "if > > one doubles the width of the skeg the stiffness is increased by the > > cube root of the width and the skeg is eight times as strong" and > he > > says something to the same effect in the metal boat society forum > on > > skeg problems. > > In his book he advises to weld the skeg to the hull and then brace > > the inside of the hull with two traverse webs, in the MBS forum he > > advises to slot it into the hull and to traverse framing or to weld > > an internal continuation (what Brian calls a loop) of the skeg. > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > wrote: > > > There seems to be some discussion about this. Here are Brent's > > words: > > > > > > "The strength of a member is porportionate to the cube root of the > > > width. Thus a small increase in width results in a huge increase > in > > > strength ,and doubling the width of the keel attachement (or skeg) > > > results in eight times the strength." > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > This is not correct. As discussed in previous postings, doubling > > the > > > width of the keel reduces the attachment load by 50%. Assuming > > > everything else is equal (big assumption), then this would mean > > > double the strength and a linearly proportional relationship. > > > > > > With regards to the strength of the keel itself (not the > > attachment), > > > the strength of the keel is proportional to the square of the > > width, > > > not the cube (I think Brent meant cube not cube root). The > moment > > of > > > inertia of the keel does go up as a funcion of the cube of its > > width. > > > > > > - Spencer | 4456|4433|2004-07-10 18:49:48|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength|While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of any wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. Any stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" wrote: > Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's own > strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the interior > and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior components, > how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or not at > all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an impact > in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way round > and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top attachments are > the same except that they will go through the cabin top and join a > cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof beam > which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this to a > couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high stress > and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but so be > it... > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) | 4457|4257|2004-07-10 19:00:48|brentswain38|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|You can drive over a beercan with a truck without making any holes in it. Put a 1/8th inch steel blulkhead halfway along the can and you'll tear it there every time. To be efficient, a keel needs a certain length to width ratio, Go too narrow and it will stall while making a certain inevitable amount of leeway going to windward in a rough headsea and drag will increase greatly. A flat plate has this problem.Narrow keel fans tend to naively assume that a boat only travels in a straight line when beating into a rough headsea. Another advantage of wider keels is the ability to put heavy tankage that much lower in the hull.There is an issue of stability here as well as just hydrodynamics.Does lowering the centre of gravity , thus increasing the ability to carry sail offset any increase in drag? Where does the balance rest? A sistership to Moitessiers Joshua spent ten years pounding on a Tuamotu reef before the locals floated her off and began using her to ship coconuts aroud the lagoon. Ten years wasn't enought to hole her. Brwent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > ..And Steve: Hens don't lay eggs with keels ;-) Glue a nail with > it's head on an egg and push sideways. > > If Mother nature would have designed naily eggs, she could have > 1) made soft nails that will bend (unlike our keels) but not break > 2) make a soft egg that will not fatigue and break even after being > bent many times > 3) make an egg with a structure and hard nail strong enough to throw > and nail it to a wall as well as a strong deformable skin to take a > serious punch without spilling it's guts - which is exatly what we > can do easily, cheaply and without any negative effects on our metal > boats. > > But realizing that either carpenters or hens would be very unhappy > with the concept she probably just gave up on it. > > Gerd > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling > wrote: > > That was the message I got from Brent's post. The skeg was strong > enough and the hull had damage so on all subsequent boats he made > the skeg wider which made the hull area stronger, and that should > fix the problem. I was going to pose the question about the keel. On > the single keel boats the keel is quite thick so I assume that a > good thin foil has been sacrificed in the interests of strength. But > if someone wants a better lift drag ratio type foil they could > always build one and frame the hull accordingly. The whole > discussion raises the point of what is sufficient and how strong > should a boat be. There has to be a limit to everything and banging > on hard rocks is going to wreck virtually any structure. I think the > keel should survive solid groundings, but any hull will eventually > be holed. My glass boat likely sooner than a steel boat yet I think > that is acceptable. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Steve Rankin > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 6:36 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > > > > > > And making the skeg wider does reduce the stresses in the > > adjacent hull BECAUSE the resisting moment couple has been > increased. > > > > > > Steve Rankin > > PS. All those chickens that lay frameless eggs can't be wrong! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4458|4433|2004-07-10 20:18:33|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Hull strength|Gerd writes: <<<<<<>>>>>>>>> Gerd I am wondering what you use instead of foam? I will soon be to the point where foam is normally installed so would sure be interested in a better way if there is one. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Martin - I have never used foaming - do you expect structural > strength from that? What sort of foam is that? What I have read > though is a hull that had a bigger punctured leak in the skin (inthe > bilge even?)that went unobserverd for a long time because the foam > sealed it off - don't remember where, maybe somebody else has the > pointer to that... > > Interior - that depends I guess, either it has no or little strength > and would be discounted in anaything that would be capable to > endanger the hull, or it is anchored solid and strong enough in > itself in which case a bulkhead might appear as a one of those nasty > traverse hardpoints ;-) This would be unusual though, steelboats are > mostly designed to be structurally strong enough in all respects to > be sailed completely empty. > > As for the SS parts - do I understand you right that you weld > chainplates on top of your bulwark pipe? If so what is the scantling > of your chainplates and of the pipe? > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > wrote: > > Hi All: I'm finding the dialogue on the question of strength very > > interesting but I haven't seen a comment on the effect the foam > and > > the interior of the boat, has on the overall strength. As for > > welding rod I have used 308 for stainless to stainless and 309 for > > mild to stainless on Prairie Maid. Since she has a stainless > bulwark > > pipe I've made all my rig attachments out of quite large pieces of > > stainless and can't imagine them failing. On another note I'm > > wondering if anyone can tell me the aprox. cost new of a borg > warner > > velvet drive or the twin disc transmission that was mentioned, and > > who are some honest dealers in Western Canada... > > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) | 4459|4449|2004-07-10 22:55:05|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|Perhaps to shed some light on the discussion about the effect of doubling the width of the skeg at the hull to deck joint. To begin with, the beginning of Brent's quote were he says, "If one doubles the width of the skeg the stiffness is increased by the cube root of the width...." is correct. In other words the moment of inertia is a cube factor. Moment of inertia affects the relative stiffness of a member in bending. So in theory, as skeg that is twice as wide would deflect one 1/8 as much. BUT it is not 8 times as strong. The resistance to deflection is independent of the strength of the section. Strength is determined by the section modulus of the skeg. In calculating the section modulus the depth of the member (in this case its width) is squared, so that if the width of the skeg were doubled, its strength would be 4 times as much. To a great extent, as I believe Greg pointed out several days ago, the problem is not with the strength or stiffness of the skeg, but with the loads being applied perpendicular to the skin of the boat. Here we are talking simple moment which is a linear calculation and so if you double the width of the skeg, the load perpendicular to the skin would be half as much and, which in the absence of either internal framing or else an ridiculously thick skin, would exceed the permissible stress in sheer of the skin. And as Gerd so succinctly put it, when adding some internal transverse framing is so easy in this area of the boat ,and offers so few downsides, why wouldn't any one agree that adding framing in this vulnerable area makes sense? Respectfully, Jeff| 4460|4449|2004-07-10 23:20:09|Jeff Halpern/ Laurie Burr|Re: Strenght Related to Cube of Width|Opps! My first sentence should have read, "Perhaps to shed some light on the discussion about the effect of doubling the width of the skeg at the hull to skeg joint." rather than "hull to keel Joint". Sorry, Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4461|4433|2004-07-11 03:32:27|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Gerald, you tell me ;-) I do not know, on my last boat I used simple foam sheets stuck between the stringers, only above the waterline. That was probably not very good, but I also had no real problems, living on board all year round for several years. At the time nobody in France thought of foaming. It's still far away for me, but I am interested in all alternatives, and also in a more detailed description on how the foaming is done, what types of foam there are, fire-risk, painting or otherwise covering before adding wooden lining, what the cost might be etc. I am just not up-to-date, and there is nobody around here building a boat to discuss local options. I you come up with anything in your research, please let me know. Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > Gerd writes: > <<<<<< strength from that? What sort of foam is that? What I have read > though is a hull that had a bigger punctured leak in the skin (inthe > bilge even?)that went unobserverd for a long time because the foam > sealed it off - don't remember where, maybe somebody else has the > pointer to that...>>>>>>>>>> > Gerd > I am wondering what you use instead of foam? I will soon be to the > point where foam is normally installed so would sure be interested in > a better way if there is one. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Martin - I have never used foaming - do you expect structural > > strength from that? What sort of foam is that? What I have read > > though is a hull that had a bigger punctured leak in the skin (inthe > > bilge even?)that went unobserverd for a long time because the foam > > sealed it off - don't remember where, maybe somebody else has the > > pointer to that... > > > > Interior - that depends I guess, either it has no or little strength > > and would be discounted in anaything that would be capable to > > endanger the hull, or it is anchored solid and strong enough in > > itself in which case a bulkhead might appear as a one of those nasty > > traverse hardpoints ;-) This would be unusual though, steelboats are > > mostly designed to be structurally strong enough in all respects to > > be sailed completely empty. > > > > As for the SS parts - do I understand you right that you weld > > chainplates on top of your bulwark pipe? If so what is the scantling > > of your chainplates and of the pipe? > > > > Gerd > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > > wrote: > > > Hi All: I'm finding the dialogue on the question of strength very > > > interesting but I haven't seen a comment on the effect the foam > > and > > > the interior of the boat, has on the overall strength. As for > > > welding rod I have used 308 for stainless to stainless and 309 for > > > mild to stainless on Prairie Maid. Since she has a stainless > > bulwark > > > pipe I've made all my rig attachments out of quite large pieces of > > > stainless and can't imagine them failing. On another note I'm > > > wondering if anyone can tell me the aprox. cost new of a borg > > warner > > > velvet drive or the twin disc transmission that was mentioned, and > > > who are some honest dealers in Western Canada... > > > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) | 4462|4257|2004-07-11 04:20:01|Gerd|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|Brent, Joshua's strength is well known, but it is a completely different type of boat, S-section, long keel, very heavy and no attached keel or skeg. I delivered another sistership (KOTIK, formerly owned by Oleg who then went and, I believe, got a Joubert designed Damien with lifting keel) from la Rochelle to Madeira. She was a real pig to sail, but still one of the best trips I ever made. I also believe that it was a Joshua that some twenty+ years ago was hit broadside full power by a cargo-ship and then dragged, stuck on the bow bulb, for several miles before falling off. At the time that was quite a spectacular case, because the boat did not make a drop of water, in spite of having a meter deep bend midships, moulded exactly to the shape of the bulb. Looked anbsolutely incredible on the pictures. I have been hunting the net for documentation on that, but can't find any... Moitessiers own Joshua was also abandoned onthe rocks by him and then refloated, repaired and is today again in service sailing for the Musee Maritime in La Rochelle. There are many, many documented cases proving the strength of metal hulls, and that's one of the reasons why we are all here in this group. Nevertheless, I still think that the more we move from a traditional hull a la Joshua to a more modern, lighter hull with fin and skeg we have to be more and more aware of structural and fatigue issues because there HAVE BEEN cases of appendices opening at the seam or being torn off, both at sea and after beachings. Your transverse webbed skeg attachements, especially with your wider skegs are right,and slotting or continuing them inside will help even more. What I do not understand is the absence of floors on your keel- attachements - looks to me like very much the same issue, cantilever, fatigue etc, and it's easy to do at practically very little addtional work as they are already slotted in, and there are no adverse effects. You could even (and in my opinion should) retro- fit that into an existing boat without too much trouble. Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: ....> A sistership to Moitessiers Joshua spent ten years pounding on a > Tuamotu reef before the locals floated her off and began using her to > ship coconuts aroud the lagoon. Ten years wasn't enought to hole her...............| 4463|4463|2004-07-11 05:34:49|edward_stoneuk|Pilot House Front Windows|The front of my pilot house is curved with a radius of about 66", which is greater then the allowance for cold bending ½" acrylic or polycarbonate. Has anyone got advice on hot bending plastic glazing? Regards, Ted| 4464|4464|2004-07-11 05:40:26|edward_stoneuk|Fish Sink|I have a large and deep stainless sink that I bought at a boat jumble. I was thinking of putting it under a cockpit seat to use for cleaning fish etc. Is that a good idea or should I use a bucket like other people? Regards, Ted| 4465|4465|2004-07-11 09:00:19|Gerd|the hull's finished !! ;-)|Just finished adjusting the hull width, and I REALLY LIKE IT ;-) Check it out at my site http://www.jsutmueller.com/boats/ And at this oportunity, a BIG BIG THANK YOU to all of you guys, of course a very special to Brent and Greg, but also to all of you for this great group, and to the growing number of people that visited my site from time to time and sent me a lot of very nice and encouraging mail. ORIGAMI ROCKS!!! ;-) Gerd| 4466|4257|2004-07-11 10:55:09|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Fuel and Water tanks|A skeg welded to the hull, with no continuation inside, and transverse framing inside, is likely to have the same attachment loading problems of a skeg without any transverse framing. Unless you have a large number of transverse frames, there is likely insufficient extra material to reduce the loading in the hull sufficient to prevent fatigue. Was this how Mungo was built? Existing hulls, with the skeg simply attached to the hull are likely at risk of failure even with internal transverse framing. These can be remedied with a retrofit. A section of the skeg can be welded inside full strength to continue the skeg, with the transverse members attached to this. The better strategy is to pierce the hull with the skeg during construction, and make the attachments directly to the skeg. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 1:19 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Fuel and Water tanks > Brent, Joshua's strength is well known, but it is a completely > different type of boat, S-section, long keel, very heavy and no > attached keel or skeg. I delivered another sistership (KOTIK, > formerly owned by Oleg who then went and, I believe, got a Joubert > designed Damien with lifting keel) from la Rochelle to Madeira. She > was a real pig to sail, but still one of the best trips I ever made. > I also believe that it was a Joshua that some twenty+ years ago was > hit broadside full power by a cargo-ship and then dragged, stuck on > the bow bulb, for several miles before falling off. At the time that > was quite a spectacular case, because the boat did not make a drop > of water, in spite of having a meter deep bend midships, moulded > exactly to the shape of the bulb. Looked anbsolutely incredible on > the pictures. I have been hunting the net for documentation on that, > but can't find any... > Moitessiers own Joshua was also abandoned onthe rocks by him and > then refloated, repaired and is today again in service sailing for > the Musee Maritime in La Rochelle. > There are many, many documented cases proving the strength of metal > hulls, and that's one of the reasons why we are all here in this > group. > > Nevertheless, I still think that the more we move from a traditional > hull a la Joshua to a more modern, lighter hull with fin and skeg we > have to be more and more aware of structural and fatigue issues > because there HAVE BEEN cases of appendices opening at the seam or > being torn off, both at sea and after beachings. > > Your transverse webbed skeg attachements, especially with your wider > skegs are right,and slotting or continuing them inside will help > even more. > What I do not understand is the absence of floors on your keel- > attachements - looks to me like very much the same issue, > cantilever, fatigue etc, and it's easy to do at practically very > little addtional work as they are already slotted in, and there are > no adverse effects. You could even (and in my opinion should) retro- > fit that into an existing boat without too much trouble. > > Gerd > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > ....> A sistership to Moitessiers Joshua spent ten years pounding > on a > > Tuamotu reef before the locals floated her off and began using her > to > > ship coconuts aroud the lagoon. Ten years wasn't enought to hole > her............... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4467|4433|2004-07-11 13:54:44|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits well below the yield strength. Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on it, and it will crush. Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your weight. Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You decide. Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood boat? Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like foam). A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will soon crush unless supported internally. I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage-Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of any > wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. Any > stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > wrote: > > Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's own > > strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the interior > > and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior components, > > how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or not > at > > all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an impact > > in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way round > > and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top attachments > are > > the same except that they will go through the cabin top and join a > > cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > beam > > which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this to > a > > couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high stress > > and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but so > be > > it... > > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4468|4427|2004-07-11 19:41:59|gschnell|Re: Welding Stainless Steel|309 is for Stainless to Mild Steel and 308 is SS to SS. Try the staff at the Air Liquide at Burnaby and 1st Ave. Really great guys. Gord SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Hi All, > > Someone mentioned using 309 to weld SS to mild steel > and he's right. > > I recently got a roll of "309L" from Praxair in > Vancouver. Sam Winter (on Clark St locatn) wasn't sure > but checked it out for me and 309 is definitely the > material to use for welding SS to 'dissimilar > material' > > Bye the bye, having checked out 'Air Liquide" and > Praxair, prices & knoledge of staff seems to be far > far better at Praxair > > Shane > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4469|4465|2004-07-11 22:56:02|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: the hull's finished !! ;-)|typo http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ Looks good. What took longer? Creating the hull on the computer, or in steel? g ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 6:00 AM Subject: [origamiboats] the hull's finished !! ;-) > Just finished adjusting the hull width, and I REALLY LIKE IT ;-) > Check it out at my site http://www.jsutmueller.com/boats/ > > And at this oportunity, a BIG BIG THANK YOU to all of you guys, of > course a very special to Brent and Greg, but also to all of you for > this great group, and to the growing number of people that visited > my site from time to time and sent me a lot of very nice and > encouraging mail. > > ORIGAMI ROCKS!!! ;-) > > Gerd > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4470|4465|2004-07-12 01:23:00|Gerd|Re: the hull's finished !! ;-)|designing it was a lot longer and great fun! there will be m ore to come from that direction after my holidays ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > typo > > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > Looks good. What took longer? Creating the hull on the computer, or in steel? > > g > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 6:00 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] the hull's finished !! ;-) > > > > Just finished adjusting the hull width, and I REALLY LIKE IT ;-) > > Check it out at my site http://www.jsutmueller.com/boats/ > > > > And at this oportunity, a BIG BIG THANK YOU to all of you guys, of > > course a very special to Brent and Greg, but also to all of you for > > this great group, and to the growing number of people that visited > > my site from time to time and sent me a lot of very nice and > > encouraging mail. > > > > ORIGAMI ROCKS!!! ;-) > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4471|4465|2004-07-12 02:52:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: the hull's finished !! ;-)|Thought that would be the case. Just finished the 50' troller hull I was working on. It took about 20 generations to get everything right and on the numbers. Very happy with the result. I used a different method to predict the chine locations, and got a surprising result with staggered chines. I'm off after week for a month myself. Any interest in starting a thread to calculate the size of transverse framing required for a sample skeg? There is enough expertise in the group from what I can see to do it / correct the errors we make. It could be a handy guide for future builders. g ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerd" To: Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:22 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: the hull's finished !! ;-) > designing it was a lot longer and great fun! there will be m ore to > come from that direction after my holidays ;-) > Gerd > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > typo > > > > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > Looks good. What took longer? Creating the hull on the computer, > or in steel? > > > > g > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gerd" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 6:00 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] the hull's finished !! ;-) > > > > > > > Just finished adjusting the hull width, and I REALLY LIKE IT ;-) > > > Check it out at my site http://www.jsutmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > And at this oportunity, a BIG BIG THANK YOU to all of you guys, > of > > > course a very special to Brent and Greg, but also to all of you > for > > > this great group, and to the growing number of people that > visited > > > my site from time to time and sent me a lot of very nice and > > > encouraging mail. > > > > > > ORIGAMI ROCKS!!! ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4472|4465|2004-07-12 05:06:15|Gerd|Re: the hull's finished !! ;-)|Very good idea - although I am not a great calculator myself, I rely heavily on my friend Gerard for that. I also have not finalized the appendices for YAGO yet, still look for ideas for a skeg-rudder configuration with lifting rudder, and if we could collect mor hard- core info here that would help me a lot. Actually what would be neat is if we could create a common docus, a repository for files and links relating to structural and certification issues. Anybody has links or extract from vetus, ABS, ISO etc that we could bring together? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Thought that would be the case. Just finished the 50' troller hull I was working on. It took about 20 generations to get > everything right and on the numbers. Very happy with the result. I used a different method to predict the chine locations, and got > a surprising result with staggered chines. > > I'm off after week for a month myself. Any interest in starting a thread to calculate the size of transverse framing required for a > sample skeg? There is enough expertise in the group from what I can see to do it / correct the errors we make. It could be a handy > guide for future builders. > > g > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gerd" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 10:22 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: the hull's finished !! ;-) > > > > designing it was a lot longer and great fun! there will be m ore to > > come from that direction after my holidays ;-) > > Gerd > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > typo > > > > > > http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > Looks good. What took longer? Creating the hull on the computer, > > or in steel? > > > > > > g > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Gerd" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 6:00 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] the hull's finished !! ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Just finished adjusting the hull width, and I REALLY LIKE IT ;-) > > > > Check it out at my site http://www.jsutmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > > > And at this oportunity, a BIG BIG THANK YOU to all of you guys, > > of > > > > course a very special to Brent and Greg, but also to all of you > > for > > > > this great group, and to the growing number of people that > > visited > > > > my site from time to time and sent me a lot of very nice and > > > > encouraging mail. > > > > > > > > ORIGAMI ROCKS!!! ;-) > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4473|4473|2004-07-12 13:52:27|tomjlee2000|Re; Steel strength|"Let's KISS Amigos" -------STEEL STRENGTH------- "CUBE OF THE RATIO" "tis thee order" 3/16 plate-vs-1/8 3 3 Eg: (3/16/1/8) = (.1875/.125) = 3.375 0R ABOUT 3.5 x As per B.S. p.? " KISS AMIGOS"| 4474|4463|2004-07-12 14:48:13|brentswain38|Re: Pilot House Front Windows|Don't use lexan. It will fog up in a couple of years.You can warm plexi while putting pressure on it until it starts to bend easily. The tricky part is warming it enough to soften it, but not enough to cause blisters and charring.It's best to get the hang of it with scrap pieces first.You can also warm it evenly in an oven if you can find a large enough oven and bend it over a mold. I always advise against curved windows for this reason. It makes glazing a real, unnecessary pain in the ass. I just changed my plexi front wheelhouse windows for tempered 1/2 inch glass so I could use a wiper on them and the increased clarity is startling.I no longer feel any inclination to jump outside for a better look. I wouldn't recommend Broco Glass in Vancouver. They ripped me off on the price. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > The front of my pilot house is curved with a radius of about 66", > which is greater then the allowance for cold bending ½" acrylic or > polycarbonate. Has anyone got advice on hot bending plastic glazing? > > Regards, > Ted | 4475|4433|2004-07-12 14:55:48|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength|It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > well below the yield strength. > > Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on > it, and it will crush. > > Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > weight. > > Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You decide. > > Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > > What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > boat? > > Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like foam). > > A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > soon crush unless supported internally. > > I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > > http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > > difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of any > > wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. Any > > stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > > strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > > wrote: > > > Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's own > > > strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the interior > > > and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior components, > > > how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or not > > at > > > all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an impact > > > in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way round > > > and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top attachments > > are > > > the same except that they will go through the cabin top and join a > > > cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > > beam > > > which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this to > > a > > > couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high stress > > > and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but so > > be > > > it... > > > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4476|4465|2004-07-12 16:45:40|edward_stoneuk|Skeg calculations|Greg, I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the dimensions for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your experience on your boats? Regards, Ted| 4477|4433|2004-07-12 16:53:12|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Brent, I think you are getting a bit carried away by your own analogies ;-) - otherwise how could a wooden bulkhead in the can add enough hard point strength to allow the punching, if in your last post just before that you think that "with the huge difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of any wood is insignificant" ? The whole argument is biased. - A structural plywood bulkhead that is strong enough to support the main section on a GF production hull will not miraculously loose its strength and be no better than paper, just because it is fitted into a steel-boat. - A steel boat is not stronger than another boat built to THE SAME STRUCTURAL STRENGTH, which is perfectly feasible in say GF or wood epoxy if you admit loosing the weight advantage over steel. All we can say is that it will react differently to different types of stresses, it will bend once in a hard punch where wood epoxy might rupture fibres internally, but in case of prolonged cyclic bending and vibration it will fatigue much earlier than wood-epoxy. Of course a strong bulkhead solidly fitted into a framed or frameless hull will add a traverse frame and structural strength there. Lots of your boats must have significant traverse structure like that, even if you designed them without frames. It's just that we can easily build steel hulls strong enough not to need this and can design freely open plan layouts. As for the entire logitudinal/traverse frame discussion, we should mabe review how stringers and frames really work on an origami hull. On a classic hard chine hull the longitudinal stringers FOLLOW the curve of the plating as they should, wheras the frames CROSS the curve, closer to the straight lines. On an origami hull this is NOT the case. In the center section, where the chines are, the stringers still follow the curve and support the shape, but in the fore and aft ends they CROSS the curve of the conical sections, and are more or less parallel to the straight lines... in other words your longitudinal stringers suddenly become traverses for the sheet they are supposed to support. That is in part compensated by the compound curve we generate more or less, depending on assembly, but that again is partly countered by the absence of the stiffening chine that has disappeared... I am not sure that careful detailed analysis might not show that the idea of origami being strong by design is not quite what it seams. As the major volume of an origami hull, and notably the area midships near the keel on which the hull would rest and bump in case of grounding is virtually identical to its hard-chine twin, I can not see how the fact that fore and aft the origami shape differs would make the hull stronger "by shape" in case of the mentioned groundings. Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a > hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than > it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. > It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape > adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. > How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently > deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > > well below the yield strength. > > > > Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and > it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on > > it, and it will crush. > > > > Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood > the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > > widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the > plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > > weight. > > > > Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You > decide. > > > > Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the > material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > > > > What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a > steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > > boat? > > > > Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a > couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > > lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like > foam). > > > > A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a > thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > > That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made > from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > > soon crush unless supported internally. > > > > I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > > > > http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- > Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > > > difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of > any > > > wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. > Any > > > stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > > > strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's > own > > > > strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the > interior > > > > and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior > components, > > > > how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or > not > > > at > > > > all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an > impact > > > > in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way > round > > > > and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top > attachments > > > are > > > > the same except that they will go through the cabin top and > join a > > > > cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > > > beam > > > > which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this > to > > > a > > > > couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high > stress > > > > and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but > so > > > be > > > > it... > > > > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4478|4465|2004-07-12 16:55:48|Gerd|Re: Skeg calculations|Ted, check out the discussion on skeg failures in the forum at www.metalboatsociety.com, there is a lot of good ideas, including posting from John Simpson with the basic formulas he uses to calculate that. Gerd and --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Greg, > > I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the dimensions > for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your experience > on your boats? > > Regards, > Ted | 4479|4433|2004-07-12 17:07:12|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|Brent, if you were concerned about puncture risk you would not weld transverse steel members directly to the hull. You will recall you were the one that said the strength of wood was insignificant, which of course would not be the case if it could contribute to puncture. Take your earlier example of a 1/8 steel disk inside a beer can. Replace this with an equivalent weight plywood disk (1.5 inches) inside a steel soup can. Drive a truck over it. If the plywood doesn't rotate, the can will not tear, and with care you can even support the weight of the truck with the can on its side! As with transverse steel framing, if you support plywood bulkheads on the longitudinals, rather than placing them directly against the hull, puncture is not an issue. For corrosion reasons alone, one would not place plywood bulkheads directly against the hull. The issue is the reduction in metal fatigue. Metal boats fatigue long before they show any visible signs of damage - well below the yield point. Plywood bulkheads mounted on the longitudinals are stronger than steel flat-bar ring frames for the weight, and can significantly increase the strength of the hull without increasing puncture risk. Plywood bulkheads are the obvious combination to use with origami, to replace ring frames as a means of reducing fatigue. Properly located they can be incorporated into the interiors furnishings with little of no penalty in weight or cost. The reasons for using plywood bulkheads is just like the reasons for using transverse framing on keels and skegs. Give the added safety and longevity, so long as they are not mounted on the hull to increase puncture risk, why would someone not take advantage of them? It just doesn't make sense to ignore the advantages of strengthening metal boats against metal fatigue. If you read this group you will discover that there is a general consensus that you have misapplied a cube function in place of a linear function. This has potentially serious consequences for all vessel that might be affected, because it may have led you to significantly over-estimated the strength of attachment for keels and skegs Recommendations have been posted to this site that you correct any vessels so affected. This is potentially a serious issue that needs to be addressed, as there is the potential for loss of life. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:53 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a > hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than > it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. > It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape > adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. > How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently > deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > > well below the yield strength. > > > > Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and > it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on > > it, and it will crush. > > > > Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood > the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > > widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the > plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > > weight. > > > > Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You > decide. > > > > Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the > material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > > > > What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a > steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > > boat? > > > > Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a > couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > > lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like > foam). > > > > A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a > thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > > That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made > from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > > soon crush unless supported internally. > > > > I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > > > > http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- > Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > > > difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of > any > > > wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. > Any > > > stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > > > strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > > > Brent Swain > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's > own > > > > strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the > interior > > > > and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior > components, > > > > how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or > not > > > at > > > > all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an > impact > > > > in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way > round > > > > and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top > attachments > > > are > > > > the same except that they will go through the cabin top and > join a > > > > cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > > > beam > > > > which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this > to > > > a > > > > couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high > stress > > > > and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but > so > > > be > > > > it... > > > > Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4480|4465|2004-07-12 17:42:24|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Skeg calculations|Hi Ted, I'll try and make sure anything I post is something you could use directly yourself. I'm working on a log strike example that buckles the skeg which I hope to post when it makes sense. For building, usually I do some numbers, and Ron goes from experience. If we both get the same answer we feel pretty confident. If our answers differ, then we get to do some fun stuff. Build a model and break it, until we are happy we understand the problem. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:43 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Skeg calculations > Greg, > > I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the dimensions > for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your experience > on your boats? > > Regards, > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4481|4433|2004-07-12 21:18:13|Steve Rankin|Re: Hull strength|> Recommendations have been posted to this site that you correct any vessels so affected. This is potentially a serious issue that > needs to be addressed, as there is the potential for loss of life. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com I may have missed something having only read this list for a few months, but Greg, I have to ask you what your credentials are, to make such a definitive statement. Have you been trained as a structural engineer, or Civil or as an Naval Architect? Not knowing, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that none of the above apply to you based on the pseudo engineering terms you use so freely. In which case you are simply another boat builder basing you ideas on pragmatic considerations and thereby being more than a little presumptious in suggesting Brent has 80 or 90 boats sailing around various parts of the world with their crews at risk of their lives. Having seen acouple of alloy boats designed by you and Ron I guess, with twin rudders and no skeg to protect them which I would suggest represents a real risk as more than one friend of mine have lost their lives when they lost their steering! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:53 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > >>It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a >>hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than >>it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. >> It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape >>adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. >> How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? >> Brent Swain >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >>>The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently >> >>deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits >> >>>well below the yield strength. >>> >>>Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and >> >>it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on >> >>>it, and it will crush. >>> >>>Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood >> >>the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - >> >>>widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the >> >>plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your >> >>>weight. >>> >>>Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You >> >>decide. >> >>>Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the >> >>material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. >> >>>What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a >> >>steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood >> >>>boat? >>> >>>Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a >> >>couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs >> >>>lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like >> >>foam). >> >>>A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a >> >>thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. >> >>>That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made >> >>from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will >> >>>soon crush unless supported internally. >>> >>>I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful >>> >>>http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- >> >>Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF >> >>>Greg Elliott >>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "brentswain38" >>>To: >>>Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength >>> >>> >>> >>>>While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge >>>>difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of >> >>any >> >>>>wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. >> >>Any >> >>>>stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield >>>>strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. >>>> Brent Swain >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" >> >> >> >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's >> >>own >> >>>>>strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the >> >>interior >> >>>>>and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior >> >>components, >> >>>>>how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or >> >>not >> >>>>at >>>> >>>>>all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an >> >>impact >> >>>>>in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way >> >>round >> >>>>>and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top >> >>attachments >> >>>>are >>>> >>>>>the same except that they will go through the cabin top and >> >>join a >> >>>>>cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof >>>> >>>>beam >>>> >>>>>which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this >> >>to >> >>>>a >>>> >>>>>couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high >> >>stress >> >>>>>and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but >> >>so >> >>>>be >>>> >>>>>it... >>>>>Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >> >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4482|4433|2004-07-12 23:47:47|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|The JM50 owner asked for a set of patterns which we supplied, from which two hulls were built. The rudders you referred to were not our design, nor do they appear on both boats. I was in sailing in SE Asia at the time, did the patterns while cruising in Thailand, and never saw the boats until 4 years after they were built. Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked professionally in both these fields. I can recognize an error in mathematics and its structural implication for a boat, as can a number of people on this site. I don't believe my qualification are any issue. This is not rocket science, and many people on this site understand the problem. If my analysis was in error I would have heard about it, you can be sure. Rather than argue my qualification, if you don't agree with me, show the group the error in my work. I don't think anyone is trying to say there is a definitive problem. Just that there are indication of something that should be checked because in the past similar problem have proven extremely dangerous, and have led to losses without any warning. Surely it is only prudent we follow up on this. I believe there is more than enough independent expertise on this site to determine the facts. On a personal level, I would think that having lost friends due to steering loss, you would be all the more keen to track down any other potential problem. Offshore, it isn't the most dangerous thing that kills you - it is any dangerous thing. Since you are concerned about qualifications, perhaps you should review Brent's. There was a recent posting that the confusion over cube and cube root was also in Brent's book, which might suggest more than a typo is involved. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rankin" To: Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > Recommendations have been posted to this site that you correct any vessels so affected. This is potentially a serious issue that > > needs to be addressed, as there is the potential for loss of life. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > I may have missed something having only read this list for a few months, > but Greg, I have to ask you what your credentials are, to make such a > definitive statement. Have you been trained as a structural engineer, or > Civil or as an Naval Architect? Not knowing, I'm going to stick my neck > out and suggest that none of the above apply to you based on the pseudo > engineering terms you use so freely. In which case you are simply > another boat builder basing you ideas on pragmatic considerations and > thereby being more than a little presumptious in suggesting Brent has 80 > or 90 boats sailing around various parts of the world with their crews > at risk of their lives. Having seen acouple of alloy boats designed by > you and Ron I guess, with twin rudders and no skeg to protect them which > I would suggest represents a real risk as more than one friend of mine > have lost their lives when they lost their steering! > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:53 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > >>It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a > >>hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than > >>it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. > >> It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape > >>adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. > >> How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? > >> Brent Swain > >> > >> > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> > >>>The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently > >> > >>deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > >> > >>>well below the yield strength. > >>> > >>>Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and > >> > >>it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on > >> > >>>it, and it will crush. > >>> > >>>Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood > >> > >>the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > >> > >>>widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the > >> > >>plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > >> > >>>weight. > >>> > >>>Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You > >> > >>decide. > >> > >>>Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the > >> > >>material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > >> > >>>What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a > >> > >>steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > >> > >>>boat? > >>> > >>>Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a > >> > >>couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > >> > >>>lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like > >> > >>foam). > >> > >>>A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a > >> > >>thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > >> > >>>That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made > >> > >>from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > >> > >>>soon crush unless supported internally. > >>> > >>>I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > >>> > >>>http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- > >> > >>Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > >> > >>>Greg Elliott > >>>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>> > >>> > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "brentswain38" > >>>To: > >>>Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > >>>>difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of > >> > >>any > >> > >>>>wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. > >> > >>Any > >> > >>>>stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > >>>>strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > >>>> Brent Swain > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > >> > >> > >> > >>>>wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's > >> > >>own > >> > >>>>>strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the > >> > >>interior > >> > >>>>>and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior > >> > >>components, > >> > >>>>>how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or > >> > >>not > >> > >>>>at > >>>> > >>>>>all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an > >> > >>impact > >> > >>>>>in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way > >> > >>round > >> > >>>>>and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top > >> > >>attachments > >> > >>>>are > >>>> > >>>>>the same except that they will go through the cabin top and > >> > >>join a > >> > >>>>>cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > >>>> > >>>>beam > >>>> > >>>>>which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this > >> > >>to > >> > >>>>a > >>>> > >>>>>couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high > >> > >>stress > >> > >>>>>and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but > >> > >>so > >> > >>>>be > >>>> > >>>>>it... > >>>>>Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >> > >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4483|4433|2004-07-13 02:50:50|Mike|Re: Hull strength|Personally, I think that it is important to consider any possible weaknesses in the boat that some of us plan to build. But, the personal attacks are childish and unprofessional. Show the group a definitive alternative rather than casting aspersions at a guy whom has the faith in his design to put a lot of blue water miles under his own keel. The discussion based on the loss of "Mungo" is beyond realistic scope. ANYBODY who loses their boat to a rocky shoreline, reef, container, dock, etc., should expect to ... lose her. The fact that more than one of Brent's boats have survived such a calamity is a tribute to the designer & builder. Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The JM50 owner asked for a set of patterns which we supplied, from which two hulls were built. The rudders you referred to were not > our design, nor do they appear on both boats. I was in sailing in SE Asia at the time, did the patterns while cruising in Thailand, > and never saw the boats until 4 years after they were built. > > Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked professionally in both these fields. > > I can recognize an error in mathematics and its structural implication for a boat, as can a number of people on this site. I don't > believe my qualification are any issue. This is not rocket science, and many people on this site understand the problem. If my > analysis was in error I would have heard about it, you can be sure. Rather than argue my qualification, if you don't agree with me, > show the group the error in my work. > > I don't think anyone is trying to say there is a definitive problem. Just that there are indication of something that should be > checked because in the past similar problem have proven extremely dangerous, and have led to losses without any warning. Surely it > is only prudent we follow up on this. I believe there is more than enough independent expertise on this site to determine the > facts. > > On a personal level, I would think that having lost friends due to steering loss, you would be all the more keen to track down any > other potential problem. Offshore, it isn't the most dangerous thing that kills you - it is any dangerous thing. Since you are > concerned about qualifications, perhaps you should review Brent's. There was a recent posting that the confusion over cube and cube > root was also in Brent's book, which might suggest more than a typo is involved. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > | 4484|4484|2004-07-13 03:16:05|John Cupp|Hello From A New Member|Hello, My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few Boatbuilding magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In the 60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base at Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified welder and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for one of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built more than five boats. I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you will not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I don't know I can find out in very short order from some of the engineers that designed the tools. A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane to use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I discovered writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from looking at some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. I love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. John Cupp boatdock@...| 4485|4433|2004-07-13 03:45:35|pipthetroll69|Re: Hull strength|A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval architect. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked professionally in both these fields. | 4486|4433|2004-07-13 04:01:45|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Steve, when "loss of life" is mentioned, things easily get a bit tense... but this is not just another academic discussion about where to best place the anodes. The facts are that - The vast majority of professional designers insists on proper connection of keel and skeg to traverse members. - There have been several hull (!) failures right next to skegs or keels that were not slotted and framed, leading to the loss of yachts, including it seems on the BS Mungo I am "just another boatbuilder" myself, much the same as Brent was when he designed his first boats, and if tomorrow people should rush out by the hundreds and build YAGOs and sail them successfully around the world (God forbid, just dreaming), that would not change my qualifactions or the soundness of my ideas or make it a better boat. More importantly, being self tought I would consider it of the utmost importance to respect recommended practices from the professional design community in all structural questions - even if in many other things I would feel free to disagree completely, show up good, simple, alternative practices or take the liberty to treat them lowly as rich peoples advocates ;-) Advising Brent and his owners/builders to revise a design approach in view of both mainstream recommendations AND documented proof of failure takes nothing away from Brent merits and archievements and is certainly not a personal attack. On the contrary, fixing this issue will increase his reputation, the re-sale value of his boats and the security of his owners. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > > > Recommendations have been posted to this site that you correct any vessels so affected. This is potentially a serious issue that > > needs to be addressed, as there is the potential for loss of life. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > I may have missed something having only read this list for a few months, > but Greg, I have to ask you what your credentials are, to make such a > definitive statement. Have you been trained as a structural engineer, or > Civil or as an Naval Architect? Not knowing, I'm going to stick my neck > out and suggest that none of the above apply to you based on the pseudo > engineering terms you use so freely. In which case you are simply > another boat builder basing you ideas on pragmatic considerations and > thereby being more than a little presumptious in suggesting Brent has 80 > or 90 boats sailing around various parts of the world with their crews > at risk of their lives. Having seen acouple of alloy boats designed by > you and Ron I guess, with twin rudders and no skeg to protect them which > I would suggest represents a real risk as more than one friend of mine > have lost their lives when they lost their steering! > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "brentswain38" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:53 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > >>It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a > >>hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than > >>it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. > >> It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape > >>adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. > >> How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? > >> Brent Swain > >> > >> > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> > >>>The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently > >> > >>deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > >> > >>>well below the yield strength. > >>> > >>>Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and > >> > >>it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on > >> > >>>it, and it will crush. > >>> > >>>Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood > >> > >>the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > >> > >>>widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the > >> > >>plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > >> > >>>weight. > >>> > >>>Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You > >> > >>decide. > >> > >>>Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the > >> > >>material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > >> > >>>What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a > >> > >>steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > >> > >>>boat? > >>> > >>>Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a > >> > >>couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > >> > >>>lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like > >> > >>foam). > >> > >>>A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a > >> > >>thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > >> > >>>That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made > >> > >>from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > >> > >>>soon crush unless supported internally. > >>> > >>>I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > >>> > >>>http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- > >> > >>Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > >> > >>>Greg Elliott > >>>http://www.origamimagic.com > >>> > >>> > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "brentswain38" > >>>To: > >>>Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > >>>>difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of > >> > >>any > >> > >>>>wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. > >> > >>Any > >> > >>>>stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > >>>>strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > >>>> Brent Swain > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > >> > >> > >> > >>>>wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's > >> > >>own > >> > >>>>>strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the > >> > >>interior > >> > >>>>>and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior > >> > >>components, > >> > >>>>>how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or > >> > >>not > >> > >>>>at > >>>> > >>>>>all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an > >> > >>impact > >> > >>>>>in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way > >> > >>round > >> > >>>>>and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top > >> > >>attachments > >> > >>>>are > >>>> > >>>>>the same except that they will go through the cabin top and > >> > >>join a > >> > >>>>>cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > >>>> > >>>>beam > >>>> > >>>>>which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this > >> > >>to > >> > >>>>a > >>>> > >>>>>couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high > >> > >>stress > >> > >>>>>and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but > >> > >>so > >> > >>>>be > >>>> > >>>>>it... > >>>>>Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >> > >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >> > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4487|4484|2004-07-13 04:05:06|Gerd|Re: Hello From A New Member|Hi John - glad you like my site, but for ORIGAMI all the merit goes to Brent, Greg and the others here ;-) a couple of months ago I did not even know that boats could be build withtout sweat and tears... Gerd the Yago Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > Hello, > > My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few Boatbuilding > magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell > completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In the > 60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base at > Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified welder > and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for one > of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built > more than five boats. > > I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you will > not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your > questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I don't > know I can find out in very short order from some of the engineers > that designed the tools. > > A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane to > use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I discovered > writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from looking at > some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. I > love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. > > John Cupp > > boatdock@k... | 4488|4484|2004-07-13 08:27:09|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hello From A New Member|John, Happy to hear from someone with your background ! I am interested in buying a Miller Shopmaster in that it can do Mig, Tig & Stick welding. Do you have opinions of this machine ? Also, I was on a site recently of one who had built a plasma cutter very cheaply. Are you aware of such "doings" and if so, can you point me to information regarding how to do this properly and well ? Cordially, Courtney Thomas John Cupp wrote: > Hello, > > My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few Boatbuilding > magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell > completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In the > 60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base at > Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified welder > and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for one > of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built > more than five boats. > > I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you will > not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your > questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I don't > know I can find out in very short order from some of the engineers > that designed the tools. > > A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane to > use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I discovered > writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from looking at > some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. I > love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. > > John Cupp > > boatdock@... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4489|4465|2004-07-13 08:58:07|Ben Tucker|Re: Skeg calculations|Hi greg I'm also very interested in getting a usable set of numbers for strengthening my piss poor roberts designed skeg, Another Job to do! As I understood it Brent recommends reinforcing the skegs internally, the question was the structure of the fin keel designs which are really almost a traditonal cutaway 3/4 keel with the rudder moved aft to a skeg rather than a true fin keel(see Photos of the 36'ocean pearl on this site) The reinforcement shown in the files section under "Swain Bare hull interior" seems to show some fairly solid floors, tying into the first set of stringers (athough Welded to the plating), wether these are as designed or not I don't know. The twin keel arrangment shown in the file Austin hull also seems fairly well internally braced. I agree completely with you that the keels and skegs need good solid internal structure, the photos seem to show this on some of Brents designs, especaily in veiw of the heavy plating, deep V, and wide long keel. However if I was building I would personally add something like the twin keel structure for the fin keel, because I can only see it helping and the weight is in the right place. Built up your model 30 footer, and was impressed by the way it folds, thats some kind of 'magic' your using. The design would suit someone wanting a modern style of boat very nicely. cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Ted, > > I'll try and make sure anything I post is something you could use directly yourself. I'm working on a log strike example that > buckles the skeg which I hope to post when it makes sense. > > For building, usually I do some numbers, and Ron goes from experience. If we both get the same answer we feel pretty confident. If > our answers differ, then we get to do some fun stuff. Build a model and break it, until we are happy we understand the problem. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "edward_stoneuk" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:43 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Skeg calculations > > > > Greg, > > > > I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the dimensions > > for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your experience > > on your boats? > > > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4490|4433|2004-07-13 09:31:04|Phil S.|Re: Hull strength|Agreed, 90% of the yacht designers out there do not have a "N.A." degree. They are just like us that read what others before us have done and apply a certain amount of either common sense or stupidity, depending on your point of view. I have zero offshore experiance, but I can read and look at what make sense. Then apply it to the type of cruising I will actually be doing. How many yachts are designed to handle just about anything but will never go offshore, something Robert Bebee lamented in his book. IMHO, the strength of the origami boat is its flexability, the "Give" the entire structure has when it collides with an immovable or heavier object. The thickness of the plate needs only be strong enough to resist the mass of the moving object, or the weight of the boat. Hence, running aground on a sharp rock or other immovable sunken object. All of this is dependant on where the offending object hits the boat but the boat would first move away from or deflect, now unless you run into a depleted uranium spear the point if impact will flex, the boat will change direction/speed then the impact area will pop back into shape. 3/16" or 1/4" steel will resist a heck of an impact if it is allowed to flex rather than be rigid. Sure there could be abillion different scenarios where I could be wrong, but we are talking about the slight chance of running aground. Lets not over think what is an of chance occurance. We are using the same plate thicknesses that is used on craft that weigh many times what ours do and go much faster. How many BS boats have hit something and been holed? Regards Phil --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pipthetroll69" wrote: > A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a > highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval > architect. | 4491|4405|2004-07-13 10:17:23|ben_azo|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|Small boats ofthen make the longest happyest voyages and have less maintenance , insurance and harborfees to consider. Just tell me what you realy would love to use the boat for , and in what climates , do you like a divided or open layout , for how many occupants , a 26ft can be great for a couple and the occasional guests , what experience in boatbuilding do you have and in what material , cause you could end up cheaper with a Kit to finish or refurbishing a good second hand-boat. Are you considering a folding mast , letting the boat take the sand or beach and what's the maximum draft you think is fine for you . Personaly I would never go on long voyages without a real interior steering position , even in the tropics , who the hell thinks its not safe and fine to have that ? So please give us more info and you will get a more specific and better focused answer. The sooner and completer your goal , the easyer for anybody in here to help with a solution and proposal, I sure will. Old uncle Ben ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Hello everyone. > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any interior > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but a > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things layout. > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together are a > different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft is > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be > greatly appreciated! > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list > for a copy of your building process video. > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month after > you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a visit. > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. > > Jesse | 4492|4433|2004-07-13 10:39:57|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless of qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no degree, no qualifications, no problem. The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what makes the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There are sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, bought a package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "pipthetroll69" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a > highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval > architect. > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling > yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > > all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better > part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > professionally in both these fields. > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4493|4433|2004-07-13 11:03:43|Paul Liebenberg|Re: Hull strength|Gerd, congratulations on your hull! I like the part on your website devoted to the computer design of origami shapes from chined hulls. Thanks for dumbing it down a little for the masses. Greg, care to enlighten us a little on the software that you use, its strengths and limitations? Paul Liebenberg. PS, I will be using lots of transverse framing welded to the hull in the area of the skeg ( a la Brent) My thoughts on the subject? I do not want the hull to flex, but it is unlikely that I will strike a sharp object in this area of the boat.| 4494|4465|2004-07-13 12:01:59|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Skeg calculations|Hi Ben and all. Doing bathroom remodeling - but I will give you some ideas. 1. I don't see how an externally mounted skeg, with reinforcing inside will work - unless the reinforcing substantially matches the pattern of the skeg outside. If the pattern is not matched then the loads of the skeg will be transferred through the skin of the hull to the internal reinforcing. Over the very small area that the framing is in direct contact with the skeg through the hull the sheer loads are going to be fantastic. Over the rest of the area, the skin will bend and flex as it transfers the load and eventually fatigue. I believe the metal boat society forum recognizes this as a problem and has a fix listed - which seems only prudent to me to retrofit. 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I think) would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if only the small area the skeg is welded to). 4. Assume the strength of the skeg fore and aft is approximately the same as a piece of 3/8 inch by 2 feet. If we pierce the skin with the skeg, for a distance of 1 foot, how much 1 foot high by 3/8 inch internal framing would we need to equal the strength of the skeg? (2^2)/(1^2) = 4 feet (height not length). 5. I'm going to take a bit of a leap of faith here and suggest that this is not 4 full width floors, rather 4 x 1/2 width webs, but I could well be wrong. This needs to be checked. For best advantage you would want it concentrated at the ends of the skeg, rather than the middle. Some could run for and aft, depending on a calculation of side loading, and probably should, and could form part of a girder to join the skeg, engine, keel and mast step. 6. We would need to add a safety factor - say 1.5 - 2.0 for cyclical side loads - depending on the shape of the hull - a 30 degree deadrise might equal a 1.5 safety factor (sin 30 = 0.5), and if the transom coincides with the aft end of the skeg, we could incorporate this in place of some of the framing. Also, the skeg would probably fail through torsion, which with a detail calculation may show that we do not need this much framing. 7. The shape of the skeg could also be a factor, with a shallow leading edge absorbing less energy. A longer skeg gets more support from the hull, but it is also stronger fore and aft, so that if you hit it hard enough the length doesn't matter much. This is probably only significant if the skeg was so long that it could never fail in a log strike. 8. What this shows (to me anyways) is that at first glance it could take some pretty serious framing for the skeg to not damage the hull if you hit a log or something similar with enough force to fold up the skeg. Comments on this are welcome as this is off the top of my head and I may well have missed something. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Tucker" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > Hi greg > > I'm also very interested in getting a usable set of numbers for > strengthening my piss poor roberts designed skeg, Another Job to do! > > As I understood it Brent recommends reinforcing the skegs internally, > the question was the structure of the fin keel designs which are > really almost a traditonal cutaway 3/4 keel with the rudder moved aft > to a skeg rather than a true fin keel(see Photos of the 36'ocean > pearl on this site) > > The reinforcement shown in the files section under "Swain Bare hull > interior" seems to show some fairly solid floors, tying into the > first set of stringers (athough Welded to the plating), wether these > are as designed or not I don't know. > > The twin keel arrangment shown in the file Austin hull also seems > fairly well internally braced. > > I agree completely with you that the keels and skegs need good solid > internal structure, the photos seem to show this on some of Brents > designs, especaily in veiw of the heavy plating, deep V, and wide > long keel. However if I was building I would personally add something > like the twin keel structure for the fin keel, because I can only see > it helping and the weight is in the right place. > > Built up your model 30 footer, and was impressed by the way it folds, > thats some kind of 'magic' your using. The design would suit someone > wanting a modern style of boat very nicely. > > cheers > > Ben > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Ted, > > > > I'll try and make sure anything I post is something you could use > directly yourself. I'm working on a log strike example that > > buckles the skeg which I hope to post when it makes sense. > > > > For building, usually I do some numbers, and Ron goes from > experience. If we both get the same answer we feel pretty > confident. If > > our answers differ, then we get to do some fun stuff. Build a > model and break it, until we are happy we understand the problem. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:43 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Skeg calculations > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the dimensions > > > for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your > experience > > > on your boats? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4495|4433|2004-07-13 12:06:26|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Thanks Paul, that's nice - I have always been firmly rooted in the dumb masses myself ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Paul Liebenberg wrote: > Gerd, congratulations on your hull! I like the part on your website devoted to the computer design of origami shapes from chined hulls. Thanks for dumbing it down a little for the masses. > Greg, care to enlighten us a little on the software that you use, its strengths and limitations? > > Paul Liebenberg. > > PS, I will be using lots of transverse framing welded to the hull in the area of the skeg ( a la > Brent) My thoughts on the subject? I do not want the hull to flex, but it is unlikely that I will strike a sharp object in this area of the boat.| 4496|4433|2004-07-13 12:13:33|Steve Rankin|Re: Hull strength|ge@... wrote: > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless of > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no degree, no > qualifications, no problem. > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what makes > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > Yes Greg You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and study! > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There are > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, bought a > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. Exactly my point! > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pipthetroll69" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval >>architect. >> >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling >> >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, >> >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better >> >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in >> >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked >> >>professionally in both these fields. >> Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you calling yourself a sailor! Cheers Steve Rankin >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4497|4433|2004-07-13 12:24:12|Phil S.|Re: Hull strength|Greg; The big difference is if you say you are a Naval Architect and you aren't, the litigation in our law suit happy contry would not be good. Where as I can say I am a Yacht Designer and no one can prove other wise. Regards Phil| 4498|4465|2004-07-13 13:02:20|Steve Rankin|Re: Skeg calculations|If anyone is interested in seeing Greg's skegs, I have uploaded photos in the photo section under Greg's Skegs. Enjoy! Steve Rankin| 4499|4405|2004-07-13 13:08:25|ben_azo|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|Hi Jesse , its your lucky day , please post your goal fast !! with all the fine designers in here ( I just looked at the previous posts ) , you sure are gone be overwelmed by fine plans , sketches & proposals ; lets hope we will see something real interesting . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Small boats ofthen make the longest happyest voyages and > have less maintenance , insurance and harborfees to consider. > Just tell me what you realy would love to use the boat for , and > in what climates , do you like a divided or open layout , for > how many occupants , a 26ft can be great for a couple and the > occasional guests , what experience in boatbuilding do you > have and in what material , cause you could end up cheaper > with a Kit to finish or refurbishing a good second hand-boat. > Are you considering a folding mast , letting the boat take the > sand or beach and what's the maximum draft you think is fine > for you . Personaly I would never go on long voyages without a > real interior steering position , even in the tropics , who the hell > thinks its not safe and fine to have that ? So please give us more > info and you will get a more specific and better focused answer. > The sooner and completer your goal , the easyer for anybody > in here to help with a solution and proposal, I sure will. > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" > wrote: > > Hello everyone. > > > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has access to any > interior > > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I wanted a 31ft but > a > > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft could actually be > > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning a 26ft could > > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how things > layout. > > > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things come together > are a > > different story. Im just not sure as too how much smaller a 31ft > is > > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause it would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include me on your list > > for a copy of your building process video. > > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton AB. a month > after > > you started building, I really would have like to pop in for a visit. > > > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or planning too. > > > > Jesse | 4500|4433|2004-07-13 13:33:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|XYZ Naval Architects Ltd. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil S." To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > Greg; > The big difference is if you say you are a Naval Architect and you aren't, the litigation in > our law suit happy contry would not be good. Where as I can say I am a Yacht Designer > and no one can prove other wise. > Regards > Phil > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4501|4433|2004-07-13 13:33:03|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|Steve, My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval architects. By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not!". Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rankin" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > ge@... wrote: > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless of > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no degree, no > > qualifications, no problem. > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what makes > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > Yes Greg > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and > study! > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There are > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, bought a > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > Exactly my point! > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval > >>architect. > >> > >> > >> > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > >> > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling > >> > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > >> > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better > >> > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > >> > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > >> > >>professionally in both these fields. > >> > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you > calling yourself a sailor! > > Cheers > Steve Rankin > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4502|4465|2004-07-13 13:49:39|Gerd|Re: Skeg calculations|Steve, do you have pics from the inside? how are the skegs mounted? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > If anyone is interested in seeing Greg's skegs, I have uploaded photos > in the photo section under Greg's Skegs. > > Enjoy! > > Steve Rankin | 4503|4465|2004-07-13 13:53:55|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Skeg calculations|Steve, we have already covered this. To the best of my knowledge these rudder/skegs were designed and built by Jean Marc and Ken Splett. I had zero to do with them. As far as I know from reports received, they have performed flawlessly, in conditions well beyond what most boats ever encounter. To think that you can excuse one boat by saying another is worse, it just doesn't make sense. If one boat sinks, how will this prevent another from sinking? Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rankin" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > If anyone is interested in seeing Greg's skegs, I have uploaded photos > in the photo section under Greg's Skegs. > > Enjoy! > > Steve Rankin > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4504|4433|2004-07-13 13:59:05|ben_azo|Re: Hull strength|Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need another investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea ?? I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised even today by illaterate persons that never went to school. Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming out of an advisory office where politic connections count more than common sense bring us more safety ??? As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH something new to explore is all I need to be happy . Old uncle Ben ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Steve, > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval architects. > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are not!". > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Rankin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless > of > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > degree, no > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > makes > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > Yes Greg > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and > > study! > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > are > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > bought a > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval > > >>architect. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling > > >> > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > > >> > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better > > >> > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > >> > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > > >> > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > >> > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > Cheers > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4505|4433|2004-07-13 14:34:07|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength|Steve and Greg, I am a naval architect both by university degree and profession. In my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture degree to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to have a requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of college was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as much about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a naval architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the engineering principles at work. This means the math and the science. If an individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim naval architecture as his profession. In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers liscense in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a requisite amount of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. Even in this system, experience can be substituted for formal education (10 years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something like that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law school to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav arch, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles the bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. This is a title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It indicates the professional has met the state liscensing requirements and that's all. I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This in not a title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they are writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they consider themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a matter of etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) or DD (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, regardless of qualifications, should either. Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything about naval architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized within the field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers his whole life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in joining this group was to learn about building small metal sail boats, as the majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, yachts and ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the non- degreed naval architects in the group. As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in the third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace Corps volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was for those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I don't have a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined by what we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Steve, > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval architects. > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are not!". > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Rankin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless > of > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > degree, no > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > makes > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > Yes Greg > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and > > study! > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > are > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > bought a > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval > > >>architect. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling > > >> > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > > >> > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better > > >> > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > >> > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > > >> > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > >> > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > Cheers > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4506|4433|2004-07-13 14:36:22|Steve Rankin|Re: Hull strength|ge@... wrote: > Steve, > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval architects. > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are not!". > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > Greg Owning a welder doesn't make you welder, anymore than knowing some math makes you an engineer, Mathematics is no more than a tool used by engineers. You are IMHO a rather pompous ass more interested in blowing your own horn and attempting to hoodwink the gullible than anything else. Incidently, clew is part of a sail; clue is what some people are short of. Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Rankin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > >>ge@... wrote: >> >>>It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless > > of > >>>qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > degree, no > >>>qualifications, no problem. >>> >> >>Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to >>convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! >> >> >>>The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > makes > >>>the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? >>> >> >>Yes Greg >>You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label >>qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those >>people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and >>study! >> >> >>>While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > > are > >>>sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being >>>under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > bought a > >>>package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an >>>embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. >> >>Exactly my point! >> >> >> >>>Greg Elliott >>>http://www.origamimagic.com >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "pipthetroll69" >>>To: >>>Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a >>>>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 >>>>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call >>>>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval >>>>architect. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling >>>> >>>>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, >>>> >>>> >>>>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better >>>> >>>>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in >>>> >>>> >>>>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked >>>> >>>>professionally in both these fields. >>>> >> >>Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of >>Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They >>offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 >>or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you >>calling yourself a sailor! >> >>Cheers >>Steve Rankin >> >> >> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4507|4433|2004-07-13 14:59:27|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|Thanks Spencer, More than once you've been helpful in getting us back on track. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "spencerj71" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 11:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > Steve and Greg, > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and profession. In > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture degree > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to have a > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of college > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as much > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a naval > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the engineering > principles at work. This means the math and the science. If an > individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim naval > architecture as his profession. > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers liscense > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a requisite amount > of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. Even in > this system, experience can be substituted for formal education (10 > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something like > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law school > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav arch, > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles the > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. This is a > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing requirements > and that's all. > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This in not a > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they are > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they consider > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a matter of > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) or DD > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, regardless of > qualifications, should either. > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything about naval > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized within the > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers his whole > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in joining > this group was to learn about building small metal sail boats, as the > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, yachts and > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the non- > degreed naval architects in the group. > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in the > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace Corps > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was for > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I don't have > a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined by what > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > - Spencer > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Steve, > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > architects. > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > > are not!". > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless > > of > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > degree, no > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > manage to > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > makes > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake > label > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard > work and > > > study! > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work > teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > > are > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > bought a > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with > an > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in > foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > architecture, a > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a > naval > > > >>architect. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > calling > > > >> > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > architect, > > > >> > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the > better > > > >> > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > >> > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > > > >> > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > >> > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including > Strength of > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > They > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take > you 4 > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > Cheers > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4508|4433|2004-07-13 15:06:00|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Spencer, thanks a lot for this clarification! Now, that we got you talking, how about spilling some of your knowledge for free ? ;-) What we really would need is a well founded approach, enlightened rules of thumb as well as any pointers to existing standards as to how to deal with the issue of appendices and, while were asking, rigs on steel hulls. That won't make us NAs but will help us to take decisions on the safe side that we often have neither the ressources nor the qualification to research as they would deserve. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Steve and Greg, > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and profession. In > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture degree > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to have a > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of college > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as much > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a naval > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the engineering > principles at work. This means the math and the science. If an > individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim naval > architecture as his profession. > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers liscense > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a requisite amount > of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. Even in > this system, experience can be substituted for formal education (10 > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something like > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law school > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav arch, > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles the > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. This is a > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing requirements > and that's all. > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This in not a > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they are > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they consider > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a matter of > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) or DD > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, regardless of > qualifications, should either. > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything about naval > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized within the > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers his whole > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in joining > this group was to learn about building small metal sail boats, as the > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, yachts and > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the non- > degreed naval architects in the group. > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in the > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace Corps > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was for > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I don't have > a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined by what > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > - Spencer > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Steve, > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > architects. > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > > are not!". > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless > > of > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > degree, no > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > manage to > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > makes > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake > label > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard > work and > > > study! > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work > teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > > are > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > bought a > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with > an > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in > foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > architecture, a > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a > naval > > > >>architect. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > calling > > > >> > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > architect, > > > >> > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the > better > > > >> > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > >> > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > > > >> > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > >> > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including > Strength of > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > They > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take > you 4 > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > Cheers > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4509|4433|2004-07-13 15:51:57|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength|Gerd, I'm happy to help anyway that I can. I've definitely taken away more than I've contributed thus far. Here are my generalisations on appendices on metal boats. From a strength standpoint, a skeg, keel or what have you can be adaquately attached to soft plate (plate with no back-up framing). As many have noted, metal has an incredilbe ability to give. There are however, two problems with this, fatigue from normal loading and fatigue from vibration. I think the fact that metal gets weaker the more times it flexes has been well established here, so I won't go into it. What I haven't seen discussed is possible effects from vibration. I have seen many power boats and some sail boats where skegs have fallen off mysteriously. The common culprit is forced vibration most often from the engine or propeller, but sometimes from hydrodynamic forces (think of a humming or singing rudder). Obviously if this event puts a hole in the boat, or causes loss of control this is a deadly situation. In many designs a great deal of time (and therefore money) is spent doing vibration analysis to insure something like this doesn't happen. I think for this group that type of engineering analysis isn't practical. To avoid fatigue problems (from vibration or otherwise), the easiest and safest approach is to make the appendicies' attachment very stiff to raise the frequency of the attachment well above those of the engine, propeller and any hydrodynamic induced vibration. This also has the effect of loweing the stress levels the attachment sees from normal loading and prolongs the fatigue life. This means preferably slotting the skeg (or whatever were talking about) through the hull in way of some longitudinal structure and tieing that longitudinal structure in to other longintudinals with transvere frames or floors. If this is planned for in the design, I think this additional amount of work to do this is trivial. It is also important to NOT end this tranverse structure (or any type of framing for that matter) on soft plate. I saw this in an interior picture. As discussed in this group, this creates a hard spot where you could potentially have a punch through or fatigue failure. Its best to end a transverse floor on a longitudial. I realize Greg has already said all of this, but you asked. If you have anything specific you'd like me to consider, I'd be more than happy to look at it. What are your rigging concerns? - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Spencer, thanks a lot for this clarification! Now, that we got you > talking, how about spilling some of your knowledge for free ? ;-) > > What we really would need is a well founded approach, enlightened > rules of thumb as well as any pointers to existing standards as to > how to deal with the issue of appendices and, while were asking, > rigs on steel hulls. That won't make us NAs but will help us to take > decisions on the safe side that we often have neither the ressources > nor the qualification to research as they would deserve. > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > Steve and Greg, > > > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and profession. > In > > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture > degree > > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to have > a > > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this > > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of college > > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship > > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as much > > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a naval > > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the > engineering > > principles at work. This means the math and the science. If an > > individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim > naval > > architecture as his profession. > > > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers > liscense > > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a requisite > amount > > of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. Even > in > > this system, experience can be substituted for formal education > (10 > > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something like > > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law > school > > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. > > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav arch, > > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles the > > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. This is > a > > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It > > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing > requirements > > and that's all. > > > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This in > not a > > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they are > > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they consider > > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a matter of > > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) or > DD > > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, regardless of > > qualifications, should either. > > > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything about > naval > > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized within > the > > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers his > whole > > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in joining > > this group was to learn about building small metal sail boats, as > the > > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, yachts > and > > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the non- > > degreed naval architects in the group. > > > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in the > > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace Corps > > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was for > > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I don't > have > > a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined by > what > > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of > > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > > > - Spencer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Steve, > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > verified > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > think > > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > that > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > > architects. > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > > > are not!". > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > regardless > > > of > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > degree, no > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > > manage to > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are > not! > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether > the > > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > makes > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the > fake > > label > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > those > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard > > work and > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work > > teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > > > are > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > Many > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded > the > > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > > bought a > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up > with > > an > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in > > foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > architecture, a > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can > call > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > yourself a > > naval > > > > >>architect. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > > calling > > > > >> > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > architect, > > > > >> > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with > the > > better > > > > >> > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > >> > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have > worked > > > > >> > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including > > Strength of > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > > They > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only > take > > you 4 > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to > you > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4510|4433|2004-07-13 16:34:41|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Spence - there is one point concerning that I tried to bring up earlier in this thread: chainplates. I do not have Brents plans of course, and can't find anything in the book and maybe I misinterprete something, but in the photosection, /campbell/blackswain001 it looks as if the chainplate sits on top of the bulwark pipe. Can anybody tell me if the plates maybe traverse the pipe and are taken up further down? in that case please disregard this posting ... But if the chainplates do sit on top of the tube wall - I guess that most of the issues re. vibration and flexing would apply here just the same? What we used to do was to slot the chainplates through the deck and attach them directly and with the right angle of pull over a good length to the frames, a girder joined to the floors and encompassing the entire hull - if frames are missing for design reasons I would at least want to run a long prolongation across several stringers I think. We also used to position them traverse, so as to allow the direction of pull to pivot freely in the axis-hole, and to avoid bending stresses both on the plate and the rigging-screw in case they were not perfectly aligned during construction or got a bend later by accident. just to make it clear again: I really do not think that anybody here considers Brents boats not to be good, strong seaworthy hulls. I simply believe that some details like these may need to be researched a bit more closely when they differ significantly from common practice. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Gerd, > > I'm happy to help anyway that I can. I've definitely taken away more > than I've contributed thus far. Here are my generalisations on > appendices on metal boats. > > From a strength standpoint, a skeg, keel or what have you can be > adaquately attached to soft plate (plate with no back-up framing). > As many have noted, metal has an incredilbe ability to give. There > are however, two problems with this, fatigue from normal loading and > fatigue from vibration. I think the fact that metal gets weaker the > more times it flexes has been well established here, so I won't go > into it. What I haven't seen discussed is possible effects from > vibration. > > I have seen many power boats and some sail boats where skegs have > fallen off mysteriously. The common culprit is forced vibration most > often from the engine or propeller, but sometimes from hydrodynamic > forces (think of a humming or singing rudder). Obviously if this > event puts a hole in the boat, or causes loss of control this is a > deadly situation. In many designs a great deal of time (and > therefore money) is spent doing vibration analysis to insure > something like this doesn't happen. I think for this group that type > of engineering analysis isn't practical. To avoid fatigue problems > (from vibration or otherwise), the easiest and safest approach is to > make the appendicies' attachment very stiff to raise the frequency of > the attachment well above those of the engine, propeller and any > hydrodynamic induced vibration. This also has the effect of loweing > the stress levels the attachment sees from normal loading and > prolongs the fatigue life. This means preferably slotting the skeg > (or whatever were talking about) through the hull in way of some > longitudinal structure and tieing that longitudinal structure in to > other longintudinals with transvere frames or floors. If this is > planned for in the design, I think this additional amount of work to > do this is trivial. > > It is also important to NOT end this tranverse structure (or any type > of framing for that matter) on soft plate. I saw this in an interior > picture. As discussed in this group, this creates a hard spot where > you could potentially have a punch through or fatigue failure. Its > best to end a transverse floor on a longitudial. > > I realize Greg has already said all of this, but you asked. > > If you have anything specific you'd like me to consider, I'd be more > than happy to look at it. What are your rigging concerns? > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Spencer, thanks a lot for this clarification! Now, that we got you > > talking, how about spilling some of your knowledge for free ? ;-) > > > > What we really would need is a well founded approach, enlightened > > rules of thumb as well as any pointers to existing standards as to > > how to deal with the issue of appendices and, while were asking, > > rigs on steel hulls. That won't make us NAs but will help us to > take > > decisions on the safe side that we often have neither the > ressources > > nor the qualification to research as they would deserve. > > > > Gerd > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > wrote: > > > Steve and Greg, > > > > > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and profession. > > In > > > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture > > degree > > > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to have > > a > > > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this > > > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of > college > > > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship > > > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as much > > > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a > naval > > > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the > > engineering > > > principles at work. This means the math and the science. If an > > > individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim > > naval > > > architecture as his profession. > > > > > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers > > liscense > > > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a requisite > > amount > > > of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. Even > > in > > > this system, experience can be substituted for formal education > > (10 > > > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something like > > > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law > > school > > > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. > > > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav arch, > > > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles the > > > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. This is > > a > > > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It > > > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing > > requirements > > > and that's all. > > > > > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This in > > not a > > > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they are > > > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they > consider > > > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a matter > of > > > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) or > > DD > > > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, regardless > of > > > qualifications, should either. > > > > > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything about > > naval > > > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized within > > the > > > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers his > > whole > > > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in joining > > > this group was to learn about building small metal sail boats, as > > the > > > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, yachts > > and > > > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the non- > > > degreed naval architects in the group. > > > > > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in the > > > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace Corps > > > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was for > > > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I don't > > have > > > a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined by > > what > > > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of > > > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > > > > > - Spencer > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > > verified > > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > > think > > > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > > that > > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > didn't > > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > > > architects. > > > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > local > > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > > > > are not!". > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > regardless > > > > of > > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take > you > > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > > degree, no > > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > > > manage to > > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are > > not! > > > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether > > the > > > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > > makes > > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the > > fake > > > label > > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > > those > > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > hard > > > work and > > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work > > > teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. > There > > > > are > > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > > Many > > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded > > the > > > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > > > bought a > > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up > > with > > > an > > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in > > > foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > > architecture, a > > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can > > call > > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > yourself a > > > naval > > > > > >>architect. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > > > calling > > > > > >> > > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > > architect, > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with > > the > > > better > > > > > >> > > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have > > worked > > > > > >> > > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including > > > Strength of > > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the > field. > > > They > > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only > > take > > > you 4 > > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object > to > > you > > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4511|4511|2004-07-13 16:41:13|Gerd|sorry ;-)|the "Spence" was a typo of course!! ;-)| 4512|4433|2004-07-13 16:50:15|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength|I remember standing on the aft deck of a rather small BC ferry crossing Georgia Strait in a NW gale , watching the hull twist back and forth in the swell, with the stern moving rather independently from the bow, and waves running like ripples thru the deck plate. Merchant seamen tell me that this is common on ocean going ships which run continuously for many decades without fatigue problems. Thus I believe fatigue is a non issue on the small grossly overbuilt yachts we are talking about here, whether they are built of aluminium or steel. If you are still worried about fatigue , one way to reduce the likelyhood even further is to avoid aluminium construction , which any metalurgist will tell you is far more prone to metal fatigue than steel, especially in the weld zones.. I just heard a story from a german singlehandeer in a small aluminium boat. He said that an aluminium yacht was recently run over by a freighter in the Carribean, and dragged under for some distance before surfacing. All the rigging was wrecked , but she wasn't leaking a drop.Nobody was injured. Other yachties in the area suddenly took a keen interest in metal yachts. There are people with mathematical degrees up the yinyang who have never been to sea and have never set foot on a metal yacht let alone got their hands dirty building one.These people some would consider highly qualified to design a yacht, more so than some people who have sailed , built and cruised all their lives. My first boat was designed by a highly qualified former Sparkman and Stephens designer and tank tested at the Davidson Lab in New york where they test the Americas cup boats. It sailed like an abortion , killing any confidence I once had in highly qualified armchair experts.I'll take the guy with the hands on experience any time. My uncle once told me that he has known Bruce Roberts since the 60's, yet has never known him to own an offshre boat, build a boat or go to sea, He took Roberts sailing once and he said in 15 knots of wind in protected waters Soberts was scared shitless. Some say he is qualified.I have no doubt he has the paper to prove it.I'd prefer someone with Greg's experience anytime. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > The JM50 owner asked for a set of patterns which we supplied, from which two hulls were built. The rudders you referred to were not > our design, nor do they appear on both boats. I was in sailing in SE Asia at the time, did the patterns while cruising in Thailand, > and never saw the boats until 4 years after they were built. > > Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked professionally in both these fields. > > I can recognize an error in mathematics and its structural implication for a boat, as can a number of people on this site. I don't > believe my qualification are any issue. This is not rocket science, and many people on this site understand the problem. If my > analysis was in error I would have heard about it, you can be sure. Rather than argue my qualification, if you don't agree with me, > show the group the error in my work. > > I don't think anyone is trying to say there is a definitive problem. Just that there are indication of something that should be > checked because in the past similar problem have proven extremely dangerous, and have led to losses without any warning. Surely it > is only prudent we follow up on this. I believe there is more than enough independent expertise on this site to determine the > facts. > > On a personal level, I would think that having lost friends due to steering loss, you would be all the more keen to track down any > other potential problem. Offshore, it isn't the most dangerous thing that kills you - it is any dangerous thing. Since you are > concerned about qualifications, perhaps you should review Brent's. There was a recent posting that the confusion over cube and cube > root was also in Brent's book, which might suggest more than a typo is involved. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Rankin" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > Recommendations have been posted to this site that you correct any vessels so affected. This is potentially a serious issue > that > > > needs to be addressed, as there is the potential for loss of life. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > I may have missed something having only read this list for a few months, > > but Greg, I have to ask you what your credentials are, to make such a > > definitive statement. Have you been trained as a structural engineer, or > > Civil or as an Naval Architect? Not knowing, I'm going to stick my neck > > out and suggest that none of the above apply to you based on the pseudo > > engineering terms you use so freely. In which case you are simply > > another boat builder basing you ideas on pragmatic considerations and > > thereby being more than a little presumptious in suggesting Brent has 80 > > or 90 boats sailing around various parts of the world with their crews > > at risk of their lives. Having seen acouple of alloy boats designed by > > you and Ron I guess, with twin rudders and no skeg to protect them which > > I would suggest represents a real risk as more than one friend of mine > > have lost their lives when they lost their steering! > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:53 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > >>It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to punch a > > >>hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest than > > >>it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. > > >> It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how shape > > >>adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. > > >> How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? > > >> Brent Swain > > >> > > >> > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> > > >>>The yield strength of steel is the point at which it permanently > > >> > > >>deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > > >> > > >>>well below the yield strength. > > >>> > > >>>Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, and > > >> > > >>it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand on > > >> > > >>>it, and it will crush. > > >>> > > >>>Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" plywood > > >> > > >>the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > > >> > > >>>widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the > > >> > > >>plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > > >> > > >>>weight. > > >>> > > >>>Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You > > >> > > >>decide. > > >> > > >>>Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between the > > >> > > >>material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > > >> > > >>>What is the most common material in a steel boat, without which a > > >> > > >>steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > > >> > > >>>boat? > > >>> > > >>>Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined by a > > >> > > >>couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > > >> > > >>>lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like > > >> > > >>foam). > > >> > > >>>A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped in a > > >> > > >>thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > > >> > > >>>That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer made > > >> > > >>from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > > >> > > >>>soon crush unless supported internally. > > >>> > > >>>I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > > >>> > > >>>http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- > > >> > > >>Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > > >> > > >>>Greg Elliott > > >>>http://www.origamimagic.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > >>>From: "brentswain38" > > >>>To: > > >>>Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > > >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the huge > > >>>>difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the strength of > > >> > > >>any > > >> > > >>>>wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over steel. > > >> > > >>Any > > >> > > >>>>stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the yield > > >>>>strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood relevant. > > >>>> Brent Swain > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>>wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>>Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's > > >> > > >>own > > >> > > >>>>>strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the > > >> > > >>interior > > >> > > >>>>>and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior > > >> > > >>components, > > >> > > >>>>>how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, or > > >> > > >>not > > >> > > >>>>at > > >>>> > > >>>>>all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an > > >> > > >>impact > > >> > > >>>>>in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way > > >> > > >>round > > >> > > >>>>>and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top > > >> > > >>attachments > > >> > > >>>>are > > >>>> > > >>>>>the same except that they will go through the cabin top and > > >> > > >>join a > > >> > > >>>>>cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward roof > > >>>> > > >>>>beam > > >>>> > > >>>>>which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown this > > >> > > >>to > > >> > > >>>>a > > >>>> > > >>>>>couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high > > >> > > >>stress > > >> > > >>>>>and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill but > > >> > > >>so > > >> > > >>>>be > > >>>> > > >>>>>it... > > >>>>>Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > >> > > >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >> > > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4513|4433|2004-07-13 17:07:49|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength|Yes the chainplates sit on top of the bulwark pipe , with a 5 inch or longer base . This way there is far more metal in the pipe wall which connects to the base than there is above the hole in the chainplate. A friend told me that he once saw a chainplate tear the wall out of the pipe. This was a chainplate with a 2 inch long base, something which is common but best avoided. Making the base long gives you far more pipe metal to weld to. With much larger boats with greater chainplate loads, a solid shaft may be welded into the bulwark pipe below the chainplate. As long as there is more steel below the chainplate than the strength of the plate above the hole, the attachement is never the weak point. There is no need to put the amount of reinforcing you need on a wood or fibreglass boat under a chainplate ,and boats which do so are stuck in wood boat thinking , dealing with a material which never has the advantage of 100 % weld strength which we have with metal boat construction. Your chainplates need the strength of the shroud they are supporting,plus a reasonable safety factor, something which is easy to achieve with metal construction. If in doubt you could always rig a hydralic jack on the mast step with a power equal to that of the three windward shrouds, and give it a crank. Brent Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Spence - there is one point concerning that I tried to bring up > earlier in this thread: chainplates. > I do not have Brents plans of course, and can't find anything in the > book and maybe I misinterprete something, but in the > photosection, /campbell/blackswain001 it looks as if the chainplate > sits on top of the bulwark pipe. > > Can anybody tell me if the plates maybe traverse the pipe and are > taken up further down? in that case please disregard this posting ... > > But if the chainplates do sit on top of the tube wall - I guess that > most of the issues re. vibration and flexing would apply here just > the same? > > What we used to do was to slot the chainplates through the deck and > attach them directly and with the right angle of pull over a good > length to the frames, a girder joined to the floors and encompassing > the entire hull - if frames are missing for design reasons I would > at least want to run a long prolongation across several stringers I > think. > > We also used to position them traverse, so as to allow the direction > of pull to pivot freely in the axis-hole, and to avoid bending > stresses both on the plate and the rigging-screw in case they were > not perfectly aligned during construction or got a bend later by > accident. > > just to make it clear again: I really do not think that anybody here > considers Brents boats not to be good, strong seaworthy hulls. I > simply believe that some details like these may need to be > researched a bit more closely when they differ significantly from > common practice. > > Gerd > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > wrote: > > Gerd, > > > > I'm happy to help anyway that I can. I've definitely taken away > more > > than I've contributed thus far. Here are my generalisations on > > appendices on metal boats. > > > > From a strength standpoint, a skeg, keel or what have you can be > > adaquately attached to soft plate (plate with no back-up > framing). > > As many have noted, metal has an incredilbe ability to give. > There > > are however, two problems with this, fatigue from normal loading > and > > fatigue from vibration. I think the fact that metal gets weaker > the > > more times it flexes has been well established here, so I won't go > > into it. What I haven't seen discussed is possible effects from > > vibration. > > > > I have seen many power boats and some sail boats where skegs have > > fallen off mysteriously. The common culprit is forced vibration > most > > often from the engine or propeller, but sometimes from > hydrodynamic > > forces (think of a humming or singing rudder). Obviously if this > > event puts a hole in the boat, or causes loss of control this is a > > deadly situation. In many designs a great deal of time (and > > therefore money) is spent doing vibration analysis to insure > > something like this doesn't happen. I think for this group that > type > > of engineering analysis isn't practical. To avoid fatigue > problems > > (from vibration or otherwise), the easiest and safest approach is > to > > make the appendicies' attachment very stiff to raise the frequency > of > > the attachment well above those of the engine, propeller and any > > hydrodynamic induced vibration. This also has the effect of > loweing > > the stress levels the attachment sees from normal loading and > > prolongs the fatigue life. This means preferably slotting the > skeg > > (or whatever were talking about) through the hull in way of some > > longitudinal structure and tieing that longitudinal structure in > to > > other longintudinals with transvere frames or floors. If this is > > planned for in the design, I think this additional amount of work > to > > do this is trivial. > > > > It is also important to NOT end this tranverse structure (or any > type > > of framing for that matter) on soft plate. I saw this in an > interior > > picture. As discussed in this group, this creates a hard spot > where > > you could potentially have a punch through or fatigue failure. > Its > > best to end a transverse floor on a longitudial. > > > > I realize Greg has already said all of this, but you asked. > > > > If you have anything specific you'd like me to consider, I'd be > more > > than happy to look at it. What are your rigging concerns? > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > Spencer, thanks a lot for this clarification! Now, that we got > you > > > talking, how about spilling some of your knowledge for free ? ;- ) > > > > > > What we really would need is a well founded approach, > enlightened > > > rules of thumb as well as any pointers to existing standards as > to > > > how to deal with the issue of appendices and, while were asking, > > > rigs on steel hulls. That won't make us NAs but will help us to > > take > > > decisions on the safe side that we often have neither the > > ressources > > > nor the qualification to research as they would deserve. > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > > wrote: > > > > Steve and Greg, > > > > > > > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and > profession. > > > In > > > > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture > > > degree > > > > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to > have > > > a > > > > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this > > > > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of > > college > > > > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship > > > > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as much > > > > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a > > naval > > > > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the > > > engineering > > > > principles at work. This means the math and the science. If > an > > > > individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim > > > naval > > > > architecture as his profession. > > > > > > > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers > > > liscense > > > > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a requisite > > > amount > > > > of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. > Even > > > in > > > > this system, experience can be substituted for formal > education > > > (10 > > > > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something > like > > > > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law > > > school > > > > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. > > > > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav > arch, > > > > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles > the > > > > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. This > is > > > a > > > > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It > > > > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing > > > requirements > > > > and that's all. > > > > > > > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This > in > > > not a > > > > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they are > > > > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they > > consider > > > > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a > matter > > of > > > > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) > or > > > DD > > > > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, > regardless > > of > > > > qualifications, should either. > > > > > > > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything about > > > naval > > > > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized > within > > > the > > > > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers his > > > whole > > > > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in > joining > > > > this group was to learn about building small metal sail boats, > as > > > the > > > > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, > yachts > > > and > > > > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the non- > > > > degreed naval architects in the group. > > > > > > > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in > the > > > > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace > Corps > > > > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was > for > > > > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I > don't > > > have > > > > a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined > by > > > what > > > > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of > > > > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > > > verified > > > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > > > think > > > > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You > are > > > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval > architect > > > that > > > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and > other > > > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > > didn't > > > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > naval > > > > architects. > > > > > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never > told > > > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > > local > > > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at > least > > > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why > not > > > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if > you > > > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > > > > are not!". > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC > that > > > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > > regardless > > > > > of > > > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take > > you > > > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > > > degree, no > > > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if > you > > > > manage to > > > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are > > > not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > Whether > > > the > > > > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > > > makes > > > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that > the > > > fake > > > > label > > > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult > to > > > those > > > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > > hard > > > > work and > > > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > work > > > > teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. > > There > > > > > are > > > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > > > Many > > > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > being > > > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > downloaded > > > the > > > > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > > > > bought a > > > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end > up > > > with > > > > an > > > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster > in > > > > foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > > > architecture, a > > > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone > can > > > call > > > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > > yourself a > > > > naval > > > > > > >>architect. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is > like > > > > calling > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > > > architect, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor > with > > > the > > > > better > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have > > > worked > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including > > > > Strength of > > > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the > > field. > > > > They > > > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will > only > > > take > > > > you 4 > > > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will > object > > to > > > you > > > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4514|4465|2004-07-13 17:21:26|brentswain38|Re: Skeg calculations|The webs run accross the skeg weld on the inside make for continuous metal from the skeg to the web at the points where they cross, Welding gussets to the web at the weld line on the inside can result in the same effect structurally as you'd have if the metal went right through, as long as both the outside and inside welds were 100% strength. I'll get Alex to post the pictures of Mungo in the Surf as soon as possible, the grounding he survived with very little dammage after 16 days in big surf Brent Swain. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Hi Ben and all. > > Doing bathroom remodeling - but I will give you some ideas. > > 1. I don't see how an externally mounted skeg, with reinforcing inside will work - unless the reinforcing substantially matches the > pattern of the skeg outside. If the pattern is not matched then the loads of the skeg will be transferred through the skin of the > hull to the internal reinforcing. Over the very small area that the framing is in direct contact with the skeg through the hull the > sheer loads are going to be fantastic. Over the rest of the area, the skin will bend and flex as it transfers the load and > eventually fatigue. I believe the metal boat society forum recognizes this as a problem and has a fix listed - which seems only > prudent to me to retrofit. > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I think) would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > 4. Assume the strength of the skeg fore and aft is approximately the same as a piece of 3/8 inch by 2 feet. If we pierce the skin > with the skeg, for a distance of 1 foot, how much 1 foot high by 3/8 inch internal framing would we need to equal the strength of > the skeg? > > (2^2)/(1^2) = 4 feet (height not length). > > 5. I'm going to take a bit of a leap of faith here and suggest that this is not 4 full width floors, rather 4 x 1/2 width webs, but > I could well be wrong. This needs to be checked. For best advantage you would want it concentrated at the ends of the skeg, rather > than the middle. Some could run for and aft, depending on a calculation of side loading, and probably should, and could form part > of a girder to join the skeg, engine, keel and mast step. > > 6. We would need to add a safety factor - say 1.5 - 2.0 for cyclical side loads - depending on the shape of the hull - a 30 > degree deadrise might equal a 1.5 safety factor (sin 30 = 0.5), and if the transom coincides with the aft end of the skeg, we could > incorporate this in place of some of the framing. Also, the skeg would probably fail through torsion, which with a detail > calculation may show that we do not need this much framing. > > 7. The shape of the skeg could also be a factor, with a shallow leading edge absorbing less energy. A longer skeg gets more > support from the hull, but it is also stronger fore and aft, so that if you hit it hard enough the length doesn't matter much. This > is probably only significant if the skeg was so long that it could never fail in a log strike. > > 8. What this shows (to me anyways) is that at first glance it could take some pretty serious framing for the skeg to not damage the > hull if you hit a log or something similar with enough force to fold up the skeg. Comments on this are welcome as this is off the > top of my head and I may well have missed something. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Tucker" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:56 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > > > > Hi greg > > > > I'm also very interested in getting a usable set of numbers for > > strengthening my piss poor roberts designed skeg, Another Job to do! > > > > As I understood it Brent recommends reinforcing the skegs internally, > > the question was the structure of the fin keel designs which are > > really almost a traditonal cutaway 3/4 keel with the rudder moved aft > > to a skeg rather than a true fin keel(see Photos of the 36'ocean > > pearl on this site) > > > > The reinforcement shown in the files section under "Swain Bare hull > > interior" seems to show some fairly solid floors, tying into the > > first set of stringers (athough Welded to the plating), wether these > > are as designed or not I don't know. > > > > The twin keel arrangment shown in the file Austin hull also seems > > fairly well internally braced. > > > > I agree completely with you that the keels and skegs need good solid > > internal structure, the photos seem to show this on some of Brents > > designs, especaily in veiw of the heavy plating, deep V, and wide > > long keel. However if I was building I would personally add something > > like the twin keel structure for the fin keel, because I can only see > > it helping and the weight is in the right place. > > > > Built up your model 30 footer, and was impressed by the way it folds, > > thats some kind of 'magic' your using. The design would suit someone > > wanting a modern style of boat very nicely. > > > > cheers > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Hi Ted, > > > > > > I'll try and make sure anything I post is something you could use > > directly yourself. I'm working on a log strike example that > > > buckles the skeg which I hope to post when it makes sense. > > > > > > For building, usually I do some numbers, and Ron goes from > > experience. If we both get the same answer we feel pretty > > confident. If > > > our answers differ, then we get to do some fun stuff. Build a > > model and break it, until we are happy we understand the problem. > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:43 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Skeg calculations > > > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > > > I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the dimensions > > > > for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your > > experience > > > > on your boats? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4515|4433|2004-07-13 17:26:42|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength|New Licensing laws in Canada declare that a person who has never set foot on a boat in his life, but who has sat at a desk and answered questions accurately,is a more qualified boater than someone who has cruised deepsea all his life. So much for government wisdom. Brent Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need another > investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea ?? > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised even > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming > out of an advisory office where politic connections count more > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Steve, > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > You are > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > architects. > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > are not!". > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > regardless > > of > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > degree, no > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > manage to > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are > not! > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > makes > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the > fake label > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > hard work and > > > study! > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > degree. There > > are > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > being > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color > ink-jet, > > bought a > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up > with an > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > architecture, a > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can > call > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > yourself a naval > > > >>architect. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > calling > > > >> > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > architect, > > > >> > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the > better > > > >> > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > >> > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I > have worked > > > >> > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > >> > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > including Strength of > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > They > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take > you 4 > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to > you > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > Cheers > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4516|4511|2004-07-13 17:36:50|spencerj71|Re: sorry ;-)|Gerd, No worries...I use Spence as well. - Spence --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > the "Spence" was a typo of course!! ;-) | 4517|4433|2004-07-13 17:48:16|Gerd|Re: Hull strength|Brent, I see your reasoning, had not realized that the base was that long, and the original strength may well be ok. Still, it leaves me with a very uneasy feeling, I think we do not have the same mechanical perspective there, where you will increase and widen (skeg) or lengthen (chainplate) the attachment on a more flexible structure, I would go for rigid attachement to a rigid structure... I think a boat may and will overall flex and bend, but very localized cyclic bends and vibrations stresses on any metal I will avoid at all price. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Yes the chainplates sit on top of the bulwark pipe , with a 5 inch or > longer base . This way there is far more metal in the pipe wall which > connects to the base than there is above the hole in the chainplate. > A friend told me that he once saw a chainplate tear the wall out of > the pipe. This was a chainplate with a 2 inch long base, something > which is common but best avoided. Making the base long gives you far > more pipe metal to weld to. With much larger boats with greater > chainplate loads, a solid shaft may be welded into the bulwark pipe > below the chainplate. As long as there is more steel below the > chainplate than the strength of the plate above the hole, the > attachement is never the weak point. > There is no need to put the amount of reinforcing you need on a wood > or fibreglass boat under a chainplate ,and boats which do so are > stuck in wood boat thinking , dealing with a material which never has > the advantage of 100 % weld strength which we have with metal boat > construction. > Your chainplates need the strength of the shroud they are > supporting,plus a reasonable safety factor, something which is easy > to achieve with metal construction. If in doubt you could always rig > a hydralic jack on the mast step with a power equal to that of the > three windward shrouds, and give it a crank. > Brent > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Spence - there is one point concerning that I tried to bring up > > earlier in this thread: chainplates. > > I do not have Brents plans of course, and can't find anything in > the > > book and maybe I misinterprete something, but in the > > photosection, /campbell/blackswain001 it looks as if the chainplate > > sits on top of the bulwark pipe. > > > > Can anybody tell me if the plates maybe traverse the pipe and are > > taken up further down? in that case please disregard this > posting ... > > > > But if the chainplates do sit on top of the tube wall - I guess > that > > most of the issues re. vibration and flexing would apply here just > > the same? > > > > What we used to do was to slot the chainplates through the deck > and > > attach them directly and with the right angle of pull over a good > > length to the frames, a girder joined to the floors and > encompassing > > the entire hull - if frames are missing for design reasons I would > > at least want to run a long prolongation across several stringers I > > think. > > > > We also used to position them traverse, so as to allow the > direction > > of pull to pivot freely in the axis-hole, and to avoid bending > > stresses both on the plate and the rigging-screw in case they were > > not perfectly aligned during construction or got a bend later by > > accident. > > > > just to make it clear again: I really do not think that anybody > here > > considers Brents boats not to be good, strong seaworthy hulls. I > > simply believe that some details like these may need to be > > researched a bit more closely when they differ significantly from > > common practice. > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > wrote: > > > Gerd, > > > > > > I'm happy to help anyway that I can. I've definitely taken away > > more > > > than I've contributed thus far. Here are my generalisations on > > > appendices on metal boats. > > > > > > From a strength standpoint, a skeg, keel or what have you can be > > > adaquately attached to soft plate (plate with no back-up > > framing). > > > As many have noted, metal has an incredilbe ability to give. > > There > > > are however, two problems with this, fatigue from normal loading > > and > > > fatigue from vibration. I think the fact that metal gets weaker > > the > > > more times it flexes has been well established here, so I won't > go > > > into it. What I haven't seen discussed is possible effects from > > > vibration. > > > > > > I have seen many power boats and some sail boats where skegs have > > > fallen off mysteriously. The common culprit is forced vibration > > most > > > often from the engine or propeller, but sometimes from > > hydrodynamic > > > forces (think of a humming or singing rudder). Obviously if this > > > event puts a hole in the boat, or causes loss of control this is > a > > > deadly situation. In many designs a great deal of time (and > > > therefore money) is spent doing vibration analysis to insure > > > something like this doesn't happen. I think for this group that > > type > > > of engineering analysis isn't practical. To avoid fatigue > > problems > > > (from vibration or otherwise), the easiest and safest approach is > > to > > > make the appendicies' attachment very stiff to raise the > frequency > > of > > > the attachment well above those of the engine, propeller and any > > > hydrodynamic induced vibration. This also has the effect of > > loweing > > > the stress levels the attachment sees from normal loading and > > > prolongs the fatigue life. This means preferably slotting the > > skeg > > > (or whatever were talking about) through the hull in way of some > > > longitudinal structure and tieing that longitudinal structure in > > to > > > other longintudinals with transvere frames or floors. If this is > > > planned for in the design, I think this additional amount of work > > to > > > do this is trivial. > > > > > > It is also important to NOT end this tranverse structure (or any > > type > > > of framing for that matter) on soft plate. I saw this in an > > interior > > > picture. As discussed in this group, this creates a hard spot > > where > > > you could potentially have a punch through or fatigue failure. > > Its > > > best to end a transverse floor on a longitudial. > > > > > > I realize Greg has already said all of this, but you asked. > > > > > > If you have anything specific you'd like me to consider, I'd be > > more > > > than happy to look at it. What are your rigging concerns? > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > Spencer, thanks a lot for this clarification! Now, that we got > > you > > > > talking, how about spilling some of your knowledge for free ? ;- > ) > > > > > > > > What we really would need is a well founded approach, > > enlightened > > > > rules of thumb as well as any pointers to existing standards as > > to > > > > how to deal with the issue of appendices and, while were > asking, > > > > rigs on steel hulls. That won't make us NAs but will help us to > > > take > > > > decisions on the safe side that we often have neither the > > > ressources > > > > nor the qualification to research as they would deserve. > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Steve and Greg, > > > > > > > > > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and > > profession. > > > > In > > > > > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval architecture > > > > degree > > > > > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have to > > have > > > > a > > > > > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how this > > > > > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of > > > college > > > > > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about ship > > > > > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as > much > > > > > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as a > > > naval > > > > > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the > > > > engineering > > > > > principles at work. This means the math and the science. If > > an > > > > > individual has these skills I think he has the right to claim > > > > naval > > > > > architecture as his profession. > > > > > > > > > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers > > > > liscense > > > > > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a > requisite > > > > amount > > > > > of education and experience and passing a couple of tests. > > Even > > > > in > > > > > this system, experience can be substituted for formal > > education > > > > (10 > > > > > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or something > > like > > > > > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to law > > > > school > > > > > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar exam. > > > > > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in nav > > arch, > > > > > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) entitles > > the > > > > > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. > This > > is > > > > a > > > > > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. It > > > > > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing > > > > requirements > > > > > and that's all. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. This > > in > > > > not a > > > > > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they > are > > > > > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they > > > consider > > > > > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a > > matter > > > of > > > > > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor sweeper) > > or > > > > DD > > > > > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, > > regardless > > > of > > > > > qualifications, should either. > > > > > > > > > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything > about > > > > naval > > > > > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized > > within > > > > the > > > > > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers > his > > > > whole > > > > > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in > > joining > > > > > this group was to learn about building small metal sail > boats, > > as > > > > the > > > > > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, > > yachts > > > > and > > > > > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the > non- > > > > > degreed naval architects in the group. > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math in > > the > > > > > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace > > Corps > > > > > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession was > > for > > > > > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I > > don't > > > > have > > > > > a degree in education. My point is our profession is defined > > by > > > > what > > > > > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many of > > > > > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > > > > verified > > > > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do > you > > > > think > > > > > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You > > are > > > > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval > > architect > > > > that > > > > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > > > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and > > other > > > > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > > > didn't > > > > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > > naval > > > > > architects. > > > > > > > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never > > told > > > > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > > > local > > > > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at > > least > > > > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. > Why > > not > > > > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if > > you > > > > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in > fact > > you > > > > > > are not!". > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC > > that > > > > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > > > regardless > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and > take > > > you > > > > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > > > > degree, no > > > > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if > > you > > > > > manage to > > > > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > > are > > > > not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > > Whether > > > > the > > > > > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > > > > makes > > > > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there > to > > > > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that > > the > > > > fake > > > > > label > > > > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult > > to > > > > those > > > > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > > > hard > > > > > work and > > > > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > > work > > > > > teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. > > > There > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this > service. > > > > Many > > > > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > > being > > > > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > downloaded > > > > the > > > > > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > > > > > bought a > > > > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > > > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end > > up > > > > with > > > > > an > > > > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster > > in > > > > > foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > > > > architecture, a > > > > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about > 11 > > > > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone > > can > > > > call > > > > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > > > yourself a > > > > > naval > > > > > > > >>architect. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is > > like > > > > > calling > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > > > > architect, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor > > with > > > > the > > > > > better > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I > have > > > > worked > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > including > > > > > Strength of > > > > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the > > > field. > > > > > They > > > > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will > > only > > > > take > > > > > you 4 > > > > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will > > object > > > to > > > > you > > > > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4518|4433|2004-07-13 18:00:21|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength|Brent, You are right because of the size of merchant vessels you can actually see the hull flexing. This is particularly remarkable in the box girder of large container ships. Don't think these ships don't have fatigue problems. Plenty of inspections and crack repairs will be performed over the life of these ships. Plenty of corroded plate will be replace as well. You are also correct in saying that fatigue from waves and hydrodynamic pressure are not really an issue with small boats as the stresses are small. Vibration is a real problem however and can be very unexpected. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with a naval architect (can we have a name), but I don't think it gives you the right to dispell the whole profession. By your logic to be qualified to design or construct a jumbo jet one must have years of experience flying them. Also, I guess that means we must all be great at designing and building cars since we spend so much time driving them. Personally I try to avoid generalizing about people and judge them based on their experience and my experience with them and not discount them because of what they do. Specialization is why our society is able to create such spectacularly outrageous stuff. I think were far beyond the time when we all farm with tools we fashioned ourselves. For the record I have built a boat, a 20' welded aluminum center- console. Granted it is not origami, or a sailboat, but I did all the welding and cutting myself. Also internships are part of most naval architeture programs, mine included one in a shipyard on the tools, one out at sea on a containership. From what I have seen, you build an excellent boat, and as you say the proof is in the performance. For your boats that seems undeniable. - Spence --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > I remember standing on the aft deck of a rather small BC ferry > crossing Georgia Strait in a NW gale , watching the hull twist back > and forth in the swell, with the stern moving rather independently > from the bow, and waves running like ripples thru the deck plate. > Merchant seamen tell me that this is common on ocean going ships > which run continuously for many decades without fatigue problems. > Thus I believe fatigue is a non issue on the small grossly overbuilt > yachts we are talking about here, whether they are built of aluminium > or steel. > If you are still worried about fatigue , one way to reduce the > likelyhood even further is to avoid aluminium construction , which > any metalurgist will tell you is far more prone to metal fatigue than > steel, especially in the weld zones.. > I just heard a story from a german singlehandeer in a small > aluminium boat. He said that an aluminium yacht was recently run over > by a freighter in the Carribean, and dragged under for some distance > before surfacing. All the rigging was wrecked , but she wasn't > leaking a drop.Nobody was injured. Other yachties in the area > suddenly took a keen interest in metal yachts. > There are people with mathematical degrees up the yinyang who have > never been to sea and have never set foot on a metal yacht let alone > got their hands dirty building one.These people some would consider > highly qualified to design a yacht, more so than some people who have > sailed , built and cruised all their lives. > My first boat was designed by a highly qualified former Sparkman > and Stephens designer and tank tested at the Davidson Lab in New york > where they test the Americas cup boats. It sailed like an abortion , > killing any confidence I once had in highly qualified armchair > experts.I'll take the guy with the hands on experience any time. > My uncle once told me that he has known Bruce Roberts since the > 60's, yet has never known him to own an offshre boat, build a boat or > go to sea, He took Roberts sailing once and he said in 15 knots of > wind in protected waters Soberts was scared shitless. Some say he is > qualified.I have no doubt he has the paper to prove it.I'd prefer > someone with Greg's experience anytime. > Brent Swain > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > The JM50 owner asked for a set of patterns which we supplied, from > which two hulls were built. The rudders you referred to were not > > our design, nor do they appear on both boats. I was in sailing in > SE Asia at the time, did the patterns while cruising in Thailand, > > and never saw the boats until 4 years after they were built. > > > > Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling > yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > > all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better > part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > professionally in both these fields. > > > > I can recognize an error in mathematics and its structural > implication for a boat, as can a number of people on this site. I > don't > > believe my qualification are any issue. This is not rocket > science, and many people on this site understand the problem. If my > > analysis was in error I would have heard about it, you can be > sure. Rather than argue my qualification, if you don't agree with me, > > show the group the error in my work. > > > > I don't think anyone is trying to say there is a definitive > problem. Just that there are indication of something that should be > > checked because in the past similar problem have proven extremely > dangerous, and have led to losses without any warning. Surely it > > is only prudent we follow up on this. I believe there is more than > enough independent expertise on this site to determine the > > facts. > > > > On a personal level, I would think that having lost friends due to > steering loss, you would be all the more keen to track down any > > other potential problem. Offshore, it isn't the most dangerous > thing that kills you - it is any dangerous thing. Since you are > > concerned about qualifications, perhaps you should review Brent's. > There was a recent posting that the confusion over cube and cube > > root was also in Brent's book, which might suggest more than a typo > is involved. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 6:16 PM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > Recommendations have been posted to this site that you correct > any vessels so affected. This is potentially a serious issue > > that > > > > needs to be addressed, as there is the potential for loss of > life. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > I may have missed something having only read this list for a few > months, > > > but Greg, I have to ask you what your credentials are, to make > such a > > > definitive statement. Have you been trained as a structural > engineer, or > > > Civil or as an Naval Architect? Not knowing, I'm going to stick > my neck > > > out and suggest that none of the above apply to you based on the > pseudo > > > engineering terms you use so freely. In which case you are simply > > > another boat builder basing you ideas on pragmatic considerations > and > > > thereby being more than a little presumptious in suggesting Brent > has 80 > > > or 90 boats sailing around various parts of the world with > their crews > > > at risk of their lives. Having seen acouple of alloy boats > designed by > > > you and Ron I guess, with twin rudders and no skeg to protect > them which > > > I would suggest represents a real risk as more than one friend of > mine > > > have lost their lives when they lost their steering! > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "brentswain38" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 11:53 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>It's much easier for a sharp object ( like a sharp rock) to > punch a > > > >>hole in the can right next to the plywood bulkhead you suggest > than > > > >>it is further away from it, or in a can without any bulkheads. > > > >> It's ability to take your weight on end is an example of how > shape > > > >>adds rigidity, an advantage framed boats toally ignore. > > > >> How much internal framing does your wooden hammer have? > > > >> Brent Swain > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>The yield strength of steel is the point at which it > permanently > > > >> > > > >>deforms. Steel will flex and fatigue within its elastic limits > > > >> > > > >>>well below the yield strength. > > > >>> > > > >>>Take a steel soup can and stand it on end. Step on top of it, > and > > > >> > > > >>it will hold your weight. Turn the can on its side, and stand > on > > > >> > > > >>>it, and it will crush. > > > >>> > > > >>>Take another steel can, and cut some thin disks out of 1/8" > plywood > > > >> > > > >>the same diameter as the can, and space them out inside - > > > >> > > > >>>widthwise. Now lay the can on its side at stand on it. If the > > > >> > > > >>plywood doesn't rotate out of place, the can will now take your > > > >> > > > >>>weight. > > > >>> > > > >>>Can plywood be structurally significant in a steel boat? You > > > >> > > > >>decide. > > > >> > > > >>>Here is a simple riddle to understand the difference between > the > > > >> > > > >>material strength of steel, and the engineered strength. > > > >> > > > >>>What is the most common material in a steel boat, without > which a > > > >> > > > >>steel boat is not possible, and is not required to build a wood > > > >> > > > >>>boat? > > > >>> > > > >>>Answer. Air. You can built a catamaran from two logs joined > by a > > > >> > > > >>couple of planks and rope. For a steel boat to work, it needs > > > >> > > > >>>lots of air to be included (or something with lots of air, like > > > >> > > > >>foam). > > > >> > > > >>>A steel boat is not made of steel. It is made of air, wrapped > in a > > > >> > > > >>thin layer of steel. A steel boat is not like a steel hammer. > > > >> > > > >>>That is solid steel. At scale, a steel boat is like a hammer > made > > > >> > > > >>from of a steel can. Try and drive nails with it, and it will > > > >> > > > >>>soon crush unless supported internally. > > > >>> > > > >>>I found this resource on the internet that might be helpful > > > >>> > > > >>>http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage- > > > >> > > > >>Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF > > > >> > > > >>>Greg Elliott > > > >>>http://www.origamimagic.com > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>From: "brentswain38" > > > >>>To: > > > >>>Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:49 PM > > > >>>Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>>While theoretically the interior will add strength, with the > huge > > > >>>>difference in strength of steel and that of wood, the > strength of > > > >> > > > >>any > > > >> > > > >>>>wood is insignificant.Sort of like adding paper mache over > steel. > > > >> > > > >>Any > > > >> > > > >>>>stresses encountered will never even remotely approach the > yield > > > >>>>strength of steel, certainly not enough to make the wood > relevant. > > > >>>> Brent Swain > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "prairiemaidca" > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>>wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>Hi All: What I was getting at is that the bare hull has it's > > > >> > > > >>own > > > >> > > > >>>>>strength quality, what I'm wondering is when you foam the > > > >> > > > >>interior > > > >> > > > >>>>>and add a layer of plywood as lots do then the interior > > > >> > > > >>components, > > > >> > > > >>>>>how much does that add to the overall strength of the boat, > or > > > >> > > > >>not > > > >> > > > >>>>at > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>all? I wondering if the foam acts as a type of cushion in an > > > >> > > > >>impact > > > >> > > > >>>>>in the foamed area. I have used 2inch 316 pipe all the way > > > >> > > > >>round > > > >> > > > >>>>>and the attachments are made of 3/8in. The cabin top > > > >> > > > >>attachments > > > >> > > > >>>>are > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>the same except that they will go through the cabin top and > > > >> > > > >>join a > > > >> > > > >>>>>cross piece that ties the mast support to the next forward > roof > > > >>>> > > > >>>>beam > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>which should eliminate any flex over the port. I've shown > this > > > >> > > > >>to > > > >> > > > >>>>a > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>couple of very knowledgable people that work with very high > > > >> > > > >>stress > > > >> > > > >>>>>and pressure levels in metals and they think it's overkill > but > > > >> > > > >>so > > > >> > > > >>>>be > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>it... > > > >>>>>Martin Forster (Prairie Maid) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > >> > > > >>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >> > > > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4519|4433|2004-07-13 18:02:11|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength|Gerd, I've seen this arrangement before. Vibration is not a problem here...basically just an axial load. - Spence --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent, I see your reasoning, had not realized that the base was that > long, and the original strength may well be ok. Still, it leaves me > with a very uneasy feeling, I think we do not have the same > mechanical perspective there, where you will increase and widen > (skeg) or lengthen (chainplate) the attachment on a more flexible > structure, I would go for rigid attachement to a rigid structure... > > I think a boat may and will overall flex and bend, but very > localized cyclic bends and vibrations stresses on any metal I will > avoid at all price. > > Gerd > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" > wrote: > > Yes the chainplates sit on top of the bulwark pipe , with a 5 inch > or > > longer base . This way there is far more metal in the pipe wall > which > > connects to the base than there is above the hole in the > chainplate. > > A friend told me that he once saw a chainplate tear the wall out > of > > the pipe. This was a chainplate with a 2 inch long base, something > > which is common but best avoided. Making the base long gives you > far > > more pipe metal to weld to. With much larger boats with greater > > chainplate loads, a solid shaft may be welded into the bulwark > pipe > > below the chainplate. As long as there is more steel below the > > chainplate than the strength of the plate above the hole, the > > attachement is never the weak point. > > There is no need to put the amount of reinforcing you need on a > wood > > or fibreglass boat under a chainplate ,and boats which do so are > > stuck in wood boat thinking , dealing with a material which never > has > > the advantage of 100 % weld strength which we have with metal > boat > > construction. > > Your chainplates need the strength of the shroud they are > > supporting,plus a reasonable safety factor, something which is > easy > > to achieve with metal construction. If in doubt you could always > rig > > a hydralic jack on the mast step with a power equal to that of the > > three windward shrouds, and give it a crank. > > Brent > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > Spence - there is one point concerning that I tried to bring up > > > earlier in this thread: chainplates. > > > I do not have Brents plans of course, and can't find anything in > > the > > > book and maybe I misinterprete something, but in the > > > photosection, /campbell/blackswain001 it looks as if the > chainplate > > > sits on top of the bulwark pipe. > > > > > > Can anybody tell me if the plates maybe traverse the pipe and > are > > > taken up further down? in that case please disregard this > > posting ... > > > > > > But if the chainplates do sit on top of the tube wall - I guess > > that > > > most of the issues re. vibration and flexing would apply here > just > > > the same? > > > > > > What we used to do was to slot the chainplates through the deck > > and > > > attach them directly and with the right angle of pull over a > good > > > length to the frames, a girder joined to the floors and > > encompassing > > > the entire hull - if frames are missing for design reasons I > would > > > at least want to run a long prolongation across several > stringers I > > > think. > > > > > > We also used to position them traverse, so as to allow the > > direction > > > of pull to pivot freely in the axis-hole, and to avoid bending > > > stresses both on the plate and the rigging-screw in case they > were > > > not perfectly aligned during construction or got a bend later by > > > accident. > > > > > > just to make it clear again: I really do not think that anybody > > here > > > considers Brents boats not to be good, strong seaworthy hulls. I > > > simply believe that some details like these may need to be > > > researched a bit more closely when they differ significantly > from > > > common practice. > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > > wrote: > > > > Gerd, > > > > > > > > I'm happy to help anyway that I can. I've definitely taken > away > > > more > > > > than I've contributed thus far. Here are my generalisations > on > > > > appendices on metal boats. > > > > > > > > From a strength standpoint, a skeg, keel or what have you can > be > > > > adaquately attached to soft plate (plate with no back-up > > > framing). > > > > As many have noted, metal has an incredilbe ability to give. > > > There > > > > are however, two problems with this, fatigue from normal > loading > > > and > > > > fatigue from vibration. I think the fact that metal gets > weaker > > > the > > > > more times it flexes has been well established here, so I > won't > > go > > > > into it. What I haven't seen discussed is possible effects > from > > > > vibration. > > > > > > > > I have seen many power boats and some sail boats where skegs > have > > > > fallen off mysteriously. The common culprit is forced > vibration > > > most > > > > often from the engine or propeller, but sometimes from > > > hydrodynamic > > > > forces (think of a humming or singing rudder). Obviously if > this > > > > event puts a hole in the boat, or causes loss of control this > is > > a > > > > deadly situation. In many designs a great deal of time (and > > > > therefore money) is spent doing vibration analysis to insure > > > > something like this doesn't happen. I think for this group > that > > > type > > > > of engineering analysis isn't practical. To avoid fatigue > > > problems > > > > (from vibration or otherwise), the easiest and safest approach > is > > > to > > > > make the appendicies' attachment very stiff to raise the > > frequency > > > of > > > > the attachment well above those of the engine, propeller and > any > > > > hydrodynamic induced vibration. This also has the effect of > > > loweing > > > > the stress levels the attachment sees from normal loading and > > > > prolongs the fatigue life. This means preferably slotting the > > > skeg > > > > (or whatever were talking about) through the hull in way of > some > > > > longitudinal structure and tieing that longitudinal structure > in > > > to > > > > other longintudinals with transvere frames or floors. If this > is > > > > planned for in the design, I think this additional amount of > work > > > to > > > > do this is trivial. > > > > > > > > It is also important to NOT end this tranverse structure (or > any > > > type > > > > of framing for that matter) on soft plate. I saw this in an > > > interior > > > > picture. As discussed in this group, this creates a hard spot > > > where > > > > you could potentially have a punch through or fatigue > failure. > > > Its > > > > best to end a transverse floor on a longitudial. > > > > > > > > I realize Greg has already said all of this, but you asked. > > > > > > > > If you have anything specific you'd like me to consider, I'd > be > > > more > > > > than happy to look at it. What are your rigging concerns? > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > > > Spencer, thanks a lot for this clarification! Now, that we > got > > > you > > > > > talking, how about spilling some of your knowledge for > free ? ;- > > ) > > > > > > > > > > What we really would need is a well founded approach, > > > enlightened > > > > > rules of thumb as well as any pointers to existing standards > as > > > to > > > > > how to deal with the issue of appendices and, while were > > asking, > > > > > rigs on steel hulls. That won't make us NAs but will help us > to > > > > take > > > > > decisions on the safe side that we often have neither the > > > > ressources > > > > > nor the qualification to research as they would deserve. > > > > > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Steve and Greg, > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a naval architect both by university degree and > > > profession. > > > > > In > > > > > > my opinion someone does not have to have a naval > architecture > > > > > degree > > > > > > to claim that as their profession. However, they do have > to > > > have > > > > > a > > > > > > requisite amount of knowledge in the subject. To me how > this > > > > > > knowledge is obtained is irrelevent. My first boss out of > > > > college > > > > > > was only high school educated, yet he knew as much about > ship > > > > > > structures as many Phds I have met. When I say, "knew as > > much > > > > > > about", I don't just mean practical knowledge. To work as > a > > > > naval > > > > > > architect, as Greg notes, I feel you must understand the > > > > > engineering > > > > > > principles at work. This means the math and the science. > If > > > an > > > > > > individual has these skills I think he has the right to > claim > > > > > naval > > > > > > architecture as his profession. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the U.S. many states now offer a professional engineers > > > > > liscense > > > > > > in naval architecture. This is obtained by having a > > requisite > > > > > amount > > > > > > of education and experience and passing a couple of > tests. > > > Even > > > > > in > > > > > > this system, experience can be substituted for formal > > > education > > > > > (10 > > > > > > years practical experience=4 years univeristy, or > something > > > like > > > > > > that). Similarly in California you do not have to go to > law > > > > > school > > > > > > to practice as a lawyer, you just have to pass the bar > exam. > > > > > > Obtaining a professional engineering liscense (be it in > nav > > > arch, > > > > > > mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, etc.) > entitles > > > the > > > > > > bearer to put P.E. (profession engineer) after his name. > > This > > > is > > > > > a > > > > > > title, similar to M.D. for doctors, or Esq. for lawyers. > It > > > > > > indicates the professional has met the state liscensing > > > > > requirements > > > > > > and that's all. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know why anyone would put NA after their name. > This > > > in > > > > > not a > > > > > > title, it is a profession or field of study. If what they > > are > > > > > > writing discusses naval architecture, then obviously they > > > > consider > > > > > > themselves to be a naval architect. I suppose this is a > > > matter > > > > of > > > > > > etiquette, but I don't see anybody putting FS (floor > sweeper) > > > or > > > > > DD > > > > > > (dirt digger) after their name so I don't think NAs, > > > regardless > > > > of > > > > > > qualifications, should either. > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a P.E. liscense does not mean you know everything > > about > > > > > naval > > > > > > architecture. Like anything else, people are specialized > > > within > > > > > the > > > > > > field. I wouldn't want someone who'd designed oil tankers > > his > > > > > whole > > > > > > life to design me an America's Cup yacht. My interest in > > > joining > > > > > > this group was to learn about building small metal sail > > boats, > > > as > > > > > the > > > > > > majority of my experience has been with with larger ships, > > > yachts > > > > > and > > > > > > ferries. I have learned an incredible amount from all the > > non- > > > > > > degreed naval architects in the group. > > > > > > > > > > > > As a matter of comparison, I taught secondary school math > in > > > the > > > > > > third world for two years (not as a fraud, but as a Peace > > > Corps > > > > > > volunteer). If someone was to ask me what my profession > was > > > for > > > > > > those two years, I would say I was a teacher even though I > > > don't > > > > > have > > > > > > a degree in education. My point is our profession is > defined > > > by > > > > > what > > > > > > we do, not our college degrees. As a final thought, many > of > > > > > > history's greatest thinkers have been self taught. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Spencer > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and > easily > > > > > verified > > > > > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do > > you > > > > > think > > > > > > engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > You > > > are > > > > > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval > > > architect > > > > > that > > > > > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys > that > > > > > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, > and > > > other > > > > > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys > that > > > > didn't > > > > > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > > > naval > > > > > > architects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never > > > told > > > > > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a > reputable > > > > local > > > > > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or > at > > > least > > > > > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. > > Why > > > not > > > > > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem > if > > > you > > > > > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in > > fact > > > you > > > > > > > are not!". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in > BC > > > that > > > > > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > > > > regardless > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and > > take > > > > you > > > > > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, > no > > > > > > > degree, no > > > > > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem > if > > > you > > > > > > manage to > > > > > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > > are > > > > > not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > > > Whether > > > > > the > > > > > > courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is > what > > > > > > > makes > > > > > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is > there > > to > > > > > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending > that > > > the > > > > > fake > > > > > > label > > > > > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an > insult > > > to > > > > > those > > > > > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly > thru > > > > hard > > > > > > work and > > > > > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were > finding > > > work > > > > > > teaching English, for which they needed a university > degree. > > > > There > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this > > service. > > > > > Many > > > > > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, > and > > > being > > > > > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > > downloaded > > > > > the > > > > > > graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > > > > > > > bought a > > > > > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large > coin > > > > > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you > end > > > up > > > > > with > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes > muster > > > in > > > > > > foreign countries. Off they went to become English > teachers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > > > > > architecture, a > > > > > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's > about > > 11 > > > > > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. > Anyone > > > can > > > > > call > > > > > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > > > > yourself a > > > > > > naval > > > > > > > > >>architect. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It > is > > > like > > > > > > calling > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a > naval > > > > > > architect, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > better > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is > in > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I > > have > > > > > worked > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > > including > > > > > > Strength of > > > > > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in > the > > > > field. > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and > will > > > only > > > > > take > > > > > > you 4 > > > > > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will > > > object > > > > to > > > > > you > > > > > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats- > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4520|4433|2004-07-13 18:09:13|spencerj71|Re: Hull strength|Brent, Does your liscensing in Canada have to do with recreational craft, or private yachts? In the U.S. the idea is liscensing will eventually take the place of USCG plan approval on commercial vessels and possible some of the role of regulatory bodies (ABS, Lloyd's, DNV, etc.). The idea is to eliminate a lot of the bueracracy...this can't be a bad thing. It will be similar to mechanical and civil engineering liscenses. As far as private vessels go, you can essentially do what ever you want as long as you're not taking on paying passengers. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I've seen some awfully poor stuff come out of people with the liscense, but then again I've seen the USCG ask for some stupid things and be blind to real problems. - Spencer P.S. I'd like to buy your book, but understand that you're somewhere in the South Pacific. Does someone handle this while you're away? The reason I ask is I'm moving in a few months and don't want to lose the book in the mail if there's a delay. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > > > New Licensing laws in Canada declare that a person who has never set > foot on a boat in his life, but who has sat at a desk and answered > questions accurately,is a more qualified boater than someone who has > cruised deepsea all his life. So much for government wisdom. > Brent > > > > Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > wrote: > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need another > > investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if > > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea ?? > > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised even > > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming > > out of an advisory office where politic connections count more > > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . > > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Steve, > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > verified > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > > You are > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > that > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > > architects. > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > > you > > > are not!". > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > regardless > > > of > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > degree, no > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > > manage to > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are > > not! > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether > > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > makes > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the > > fake label > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > those > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > > hard work and > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > > degree. There > > > are > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > > being > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color > > ink-jet, > > > bought a > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up > > with an > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster > > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > architecture, a > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can > > call > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > yourself a naval > > > > >>architect. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > > calling > > > > >> > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > architect, > > > > >> > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the > > better > > > > >> > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > >> > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I > > have worked > > > > >> > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > > including Strength of > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > > They > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only > take > > you 4 > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to > > you > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4521|4484|2004-07-13 18:34:44|Hall,Clarrie|Re: Hello From A New Member|Courtney Can you give me a link to the home built plasma cutter site? Clarrie Hall -----Original Message----- From: Courtney Thomas [mailto:ccthomas@...] Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2004 1:40 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Hello From A New Member John, Happy to hear from someone with your background ! I am interested in buying a Miller Shopmaster in that it can do Mig, Tig & Stick welding. Do you have opinions of this machine ? Also, I was on a site recently of one who had built a plasma cutter very cheaply. Are you aware of such "doings" and if so, can you point me to information regarding how to do this properly and well ? Cordially, Courtney Thomas John Cupp wrote: > Hello, > > My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few Boatbuilding > magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell > completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In the > 60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base at > Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified welder > and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for one > of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built > more than five boats. > > I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you will > not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your > questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I don't > know I can find out in very short order from some of the engineers > that designed the tools. > > A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane to > use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I discovered > writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from looking at > some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. I > love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. > > John Cupp > > boatdock@... > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua District Council. ------------------------------------------------------------------------| 4522|4522|2004-07-13 18:43:02|denis buggy|Re: Hull design|hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea of fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each hull on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area to investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from nasa I hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when visiting this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need another investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea ?? I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised even today by illaterate persons that never went to school. Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming out of an advisory office where politic connections count more than common sense bring us more safety ??? As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH something new to explore is all I need to be happy . Old uncle Ben ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Steve, > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. You are > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval architects. > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are not!". > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Rankin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless > of > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > degree, no > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > makes > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > Yes Greg > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and > > study! > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There > are > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, > bought a > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval > > >>architect. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > >> > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling > > >> > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, > > >> > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better > > >> > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > >> > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked > > >> > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > >> > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > Cheers > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4523|4433|2004-07-13 19:39:52|Henri Naths|Re: Hull strength|You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and study! Steve, Believe me in a high profile law suit if you say you're something that your not, all the offended party has to prove that you did it for personnel gain or in a culpable manner. On the other hand you don't need any kind of label to do something and anyone that is insulted because you found fault in their work has more problems than you not having a label.The truth has a potential to offend.. I don't need a label to find fault in a journeyman's welding nor bad structural engineering. My job depend on it as does the people/clients I serve and protect. I've seen a lot of bad engineering and bad welding and a lot of offended people in 20 years. If anyone has a problem with that I have to question their motives or agenda. I would like to get on with the problem at hand. Lets try to stay focused and be productive. Cheers Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Rankin To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 13 July, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength ge@... wrote: > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, regardless of > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no degree, no > qualifications, no problem. > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are not! > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what makes > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > Yes Greg You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the fake label qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru hard work and study! > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding work teaching English, for which they needed a university degree. There are > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and being > under-funded to make use of this service, simply downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color ink-jet, bought a > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up with an > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. Exactly my point! > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pipthetroll69" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval architecture, a >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can call >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call yourself a naval >>architect. >> >> >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: >> >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like calling >> >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval architect, >> >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the better >> >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in >> >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I have worked >> >>professionally in both these fields. >> Well maybe you should study some applied science including Strength of Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. They offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take you 4 or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to you calling yourself a sailor! Cheers Steve Rankin >>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4524|4522|2004-07-13 19:59:04|ben_azo|Re: Hull design|Hi Denis , WOW what a question and comment list ; hard to see what you mean for an old man , post us a link or a pic of that South African Idea , so we can see what you mean . A steel motorsailor-catamaran ? I know of many steel catamarans where displacement is an advantage like for dredgers or trawling fishingboats . My definition of a fine motorsailor is a 100% fine sailboat , with a great range and a decent cruising speed under normal power . Hard to achieve with steel as building material for a motorsailor cat !!!! but it can be build for sure , as long as it is for a 12m +boat, but a catamaran motorsailor not sailing or motoring above hull speed ,why motorsail slow when you can go faster with less energy in the first place .Interesting topic?? not in my eyes , why should we even consider building such a boat ? Please , you tell me . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea of fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each hull on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area to investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from nasa I hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when visiting this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need another > investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea ?? > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised even > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming > out of an advisory office where politic connections count more > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Steve, > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > You are > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > architects. > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > are not!". > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > regardless > > of > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > degree, no > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > manage to > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are > not! > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > makes > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the > fake label > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > hard work and > > > study! > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > degree. There > > are > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > being > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color > ink-jet, > > bought a > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up > with an > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > architecture, a > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can > call > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > yourself a naval > > > >>architect. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > calling > > > >> > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > architect, > > > >> > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the > better > > > >> > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > >> > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I > have worked > > > >> > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > >> > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > including Strength of > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > They > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take > you 4 > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to > you > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > Cheers > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4526|4433|2004-07-13 20:26:38|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength|Someone asked who designed the S&S boat. It is in Skenes elements of boat yacht design by Francis S Kinney and it has the rudder attached to the back of the cut away keel. Also has a short waterline for that size boat. When I was selling boats I recall some of the staff and designers at Shorlander Trailers wanted to build aluminum models. The head cheese said that he thought they would crack from the flexing but if that is what they thought then prove it to him by building an aluminum trailer and demonstrating it. They still build them out of steel and they are one of the best boat trailers available. I remembered this when we got our stock trailer, it is heavy but it will not break even with a bunch of cows dancing in the back. I will admit you are dealing with this skeg thing very well. I thought some were trying to get on your case. Isn't Mungo the name of the guy that slugged the horse in the movie Blazing Saddles. The bronze type strut on my boat has cracked on almost fallen apart, I believe vibration is one of the causes for the failure. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 1:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength I remember standing on the aft deck of a rather small BC ferry crossing Georgia Strait in a NW gale , watching the hull twist back and forth in the swell, with the stern moving rather independently from the bow, and waves running like ripples thru the deck plate. Merchant seamen tell me that this is common on ocean going ships which run continuously for many decades without fatigue problems. Thus I believe fatigue is a non issue on the small grossly overbuilt yachts we are talking about here, whether they are built of aluminium or steel. If you are still worried about fatigue , one way to reduce the likelyhood even further is to avoid aluminium construction , which any metalurgist will tell you is far more prone to metal fatigue than steel, especially in the weld zones.. I just heard a story from a german singlehandeer in a small aluminium boat. He said that an aluminium yacht was recently run over by a freighter in the Carribean, and dragged under for some distance before surfacing. All the rigging was wrecked , but she wasn't leaking a drop.Nobody was injured. Other yachties in the area suddenly took a keen interest in metal yachts. There are people with mathematical degrees up the yinyang who have never been to sea and have never set foot on a metal yacht let alone got their hands dirty building one.These people some would consider highly qualified to design a yacht, more so than some people who have sailed , built and cruised all their lives. My first boat was designed by a highly qualified former Sparkman and Stephens designer and tank tested at the Davidson Lab in New york where they test the Americas cup boats. It sailed like an abortion , killing any confidence I once had in highly qualified armchair experts.I'll take the guy with the hands on experience any time. My uncle once told me that he has known Bruce Roberts since the 60's, yet has never known him to own an offshre boat, build a boat or go to sea, He took Roberts sailing once and he said in 15 knots of wind in protected waters Soberts was scared shitless. Some say he is qualified.I have no doubt he has the paper to prove it.I'd prefer someone with Greg's experience anytime. Brent Swain [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4527|4527|2004-07-13 21:09:06|Alex|Origami Dinghy|Hi all, Someone posted a great photo of an origami dinghy under sail back in March, powered by a crab-claw sail rig. Anyone have info about this boat? What size? I'd like to do a large capacity sailing dinghy for my boat and would be curious to know anything about it. You'll be interested to know that your group moderator is heading out soon on the great "scrap yard" trek to get all the bits and pieces for completing the bare hull. I don't think I'll be sailing by fall, but at least we'll be nicely trimmed out with stainless before winter! I now have the pilot house on, as well as cockpit, so will hopefully get the cover shot updated soon for all to see. Regards, Alex| 4528|22|2004-07-13 23:14:56|David K McComber|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|I get a bad link, and when I go to the files section I can't find a "Master%20of%20Fine%20Arts%20.jpg". David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Master of Fine Arts .jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Just ask me in what Arts . WOW You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Master%20of%20Fine%20Arts%2 0.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4529|4433|2004-07-14 01:23:54|hauraki_blue|Naval Archtiects?|Interesting reading all this talk about who can or can not call themselves a Naval Architect. Personally, I think a successful designer is one whom makes sure his boats are built as strongly (or at least provides the correct scantlings) as possible to the conditions they are likely to encounter. T.Harrsion Bulter was a British Dentist whom did yacht design as a hobby, yet a lot of his boats have sailed the world and are still going strong after 70 odd years. Lyle Hess, when he was alive, liked to take an active interest in the construction of as many boats built to his design as he could. Whats the point in being, say, the greatest Naval Architect on earth if a boat to one of your designs is built like crap. Of course its impossible to analyze the construction of every boat built to your designs - but you get my drift? There are many great designers out there, but are there many decent builders left? There are probably a lot of professionally designed but amateur built boats that I would trust ahead of some mass produced GRP boat built on the cheap by some supposed expert boatbuilding yard, whom then promote vessels they construct as offshore capable boats.| 4530|4433|2004-07-14 03:32:59|Ben Tucker|Re: Naval Archtiects?|Hi All, As I understand it a Naval Architect is trained to design and engineer commercial ships. Yacht designers design pleasure yachts. The two fields overlap but are often very different. Many qualified NA's would probably not be able to sail a yacht, let alone design one. Many have never even been at sea on any boat. quite a few of the first year NA's at our college have no interest in the sea or boats, they just think NA will be a fun degree! Some NA's are excellent yacht designers. And some sucessful Yacht designers go on to become good NA's. NA's have specailised knowledge that can be very useful to small pleasure yacht design. Spencers excellant idea about the fatigue effects of vibration on the skeg is a good example of this. I am trained as a Navigating officer, this does not make me a good sailor, or even a good small boat navigator, I have had to learn how to apply the skills I learnt on big ships to small boats. Most of the Master Mariners i've sailed with don't know (or care) anything about small boats. A few do. A Naval Architect is not a Yacht Designer, and a Yacht designer is not a Naval Architect. Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "hauraki_blue" wrote: > Interesting reading all this talk about who can or can not call > themselves a Naval Architect. > Personally, I think a successful designer is one whom makes sure his > boats are built as strongly (or at least provides the correct > scantlings) as possible to the conditions they are likely to > encounter. > T.Harrsion Bulter was a British Dentist whom did yacht design as a > hobby, yet a lot of his boats have sailed the world and are still > going strong after 70 odd years. > Lyle Hess, when he was alive, liked to take an active interest in > the construction of as many boats built to his design as he could. > Whats the point in being, say, the greatest Naval Architect on earth > if a boat to one of your designs is built like crap. Of course its > impossible to analyze the construction of every boat built to your > designs - but you get my drift? > There are many great designers out there, but are there many decent > builders left? There are probably a lot of professionally designed > but amateur built boats that I would trust ahead of some mass > produced GRP boat built on the cheap by some supposed expert > boatbuilding yard, whom then promote vessels they construct as > offshore capable boats. | 4531|4531|2004-07-14 04:17:52|James Douglas|Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too distant future. I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate the necessary funds and time to build something larger. I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very good for a novice sailor! Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely this? Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" materials, plus tough as nails as per above. If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi-custom boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing invite for coffee all stay of course! Well that's it for now. Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! Yours sincerely, Jim Douglas Vancouver, B.C. The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year period and though she won't likely be large she has to be comfortable.| 4532|22|2004-07-14 04:55:45|ben_azo|Re: New file uploaded to origamiboats|Dont worry ,just a joke I posted and it was removed , I could send you a lot of yokes ,just let me know , I am going to be serious from now on in here , at least I will try and do my best . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > I get a bad link, and when I go to the files section I can't find a > "Master%20of%20Fine%20Arts%20.jpg". > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Hello, > > This email message is a notification to let you know that > a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats > group. > > File : /Master of Fine Arts .jpg > Uploaded by : ben_azo > Description : Just ask me in what Arts . WOW > > You can access this file at the URL > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Master%20of%20Fine% 20Arts%2 > 0.jpg > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit > > http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files > > Regards, > > ben_azo > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089850735/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=1304 ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=973349534> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4533|4531|2004-07-14 05:12:39|Gerd|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi James - you are absolutely right, small boats make happy people! Many very small boats have circumnavigated, and - given proper serious design and construction - there is no problem to take a small boat on big trips. It is more a question of comfort due to lenght of boat with respect to wave motion & frequency, as well as carrying ability. 26' seem to be about the lower limit for one, maximum 2 on board, at least for my personal tastes in life. If you go small, go alloy - the weight advantage becomes more important there - unless you have a very tight cash situation. Flush deck: unless you want to have very high topsides which I would not recommend (weight & windage) your flush deck 26 would be a bit low inside. You would need to see if you can find a working compromise there. No cockpit: My last boat (10 m) had full-length uniterrupted flush deck and only a small 25 cm deep well aft in place of the cockpit, to have a place to hold the winch handle or the coffee cup, but you could only sit there with your knees under your chin ;-) That gives of course a awful lot of lot of volume inside, but it was wet and uncomfortable all the time except when running in good weather. The first thing my ex-wife did when I left was to add a coachroof to the boat ;-) Gerd the YAGO PROJECT, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. | 4534|4531|2004-07-14 05:17:11|ben_azo|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|A fine designgoal you posted there , I have only one question left: who or how many people will live with you on board, how old are you , cause even a batchelor can take off to the carabean and believe me, with a fine boat I think the temptations off life in the sun and a happy life will come sooner than you think . Plan ahead abit and give us more insight about your great project ,so we can propose something focused for your needs. I can assure you that its very easy to build an Aluminum boat thats even stronger than what you expect building in steel , and that building to classification standards ( ABS , Loyds or Veritas just to name a few) always is a safer investment ,just think of the resale value of your boat when you will want a larger or different boat . Outline your project in detail and I will post proposals you might like or leave if you find better ones ;-) Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. | 4535|4484|2004-07-14 11:31:54|John Cupp|Re: Hello From A New Member|Hello Courtney, I have a friend that owns a Miller Shopmaster 300 and it is very much a lot of machine for the money you spend. I want a portable self powered machine and have my mind set on the Trailblazer 301 D. I try to buy everything in diesel because it is easy to acquire even in third world countries. On the very plus side it is a 10 KW generator on top of a great welder. I know I could make at least good fuel supplies from welding needed on boats along my journeys. As far as a home made plasma cutter is concerned I haven't seen one yet that was reliable enough to build myself. I have an older unit that I must replace if I plan on building one of these designs. The duty cycle is entirely to small for any good work. Since the plans are in auto cad I could have all of the plates cut with CNC flame cutters that are infinitely precise. Sorry that I didn't answer sooner but I had to travel to town yesterday and deal for a new car for my wife. I should have stayed home because found my wife was a shark with the salesmen. I decided that I will never get divorced because I would not want my wife as an enemy. The good thing is that a diesel welder is more within my reach because she has what she wanted. I would be interested in the plans for the plasma cutter but I fear the power supply would still be expensive. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > John, > > Happy to hear from someone with your background ! > > I am interested in buying a Miller Shopmaster in that it can do Mig, Tig > & Stick welding. Do you have opinions of this machine ? > > Also, I was on a site recently of one who had built a plasma cutter very > cheaply. Are you aware of such "doings" and if so, can you point me to > information regarding how to do this properly and well ? > > Cordially, > > Courtney Thomas > > > > John Cupp wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few Boatbuilding > > magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell > > completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In the > > 60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base at > > Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified welder > > and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for one > > of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built > > more than five boats. > > > > I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you will > > not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your > > questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I don't > > know I can find out in very short order from some of the engineers > > that designed the tools. > > > > A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane to > > use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I discovered > > writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from looking at > > some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. I > > love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. > > > > John Cupp > > > > boatdock@k... > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4536|4484|2004-07-14 11:42:19|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hello From A New Member|John, Thank you for your time. I can tell you're real busy :-) Anyway, how much does a Trailblazer 301D cost new ? Is it Miller ? I assume it's an inverter type. Is the weight no problem ? You must have a big boat otherwise, huh ? My current boat is only 10 Tons and by the time it's ready to go a welder of any size would be unfeasible. Cordially, Courtney John Cupp wrote: > Hello Courtney, > > I have a friend that owns a Miller Shopmaster 300 and it is very much > a lot of machine for the money you spend. I want a portable self > powered machine and have my mind set on the Trailblazer 301 D. I try > to buy everything in diesel because it is easy to acquire even in > third world countries. On the very plus side it is a 10 KW generator > on top of a great welder. I know I could make at least good fuel > supplies from welding needed on boats along my journeys. > > > As far as a home made plasma cutter is concerned I haven't seen one > yet that was reliable enough to build myself. I have an older unit > that I must replace if I plan on building one of these designs. The > duty cycle is entirely to small for any good work. Since the plans > are in auto cad I could have all of the plates cut with CNC flame > cutters that are infinitely precise. Sorry that I didn't answer > sooner but I had to travel to town yesterday and deal for a new car > for my wife. I should have stayed home because found my wife was a > shark with the salesmen. I decided that I will never get divorced > because I would not want my wife as an enemy. > > The good thing is that a diesel welder is more within my reach > because she has what she wanted. I would be interested in the plans > for the plasma cutter but I fear the power supply would still be > expensive. > > John Cupp > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > >>John, >> >>Happy to hear from someone with your background ! >> >>I am interested in buying a Miller Shopmaster in that it can do >> > Mig, Tig > >>& Stick welding. Do you have opinions of this machine ? >> >>Also, I was on a site recently of one who had built a plasma cutter >> > very > >>cheaply. Are you aware of such "doings" and if so, can you point me >> > to > >>information regarding how to do this properly and well ? >> >>Cordially, >> >>Courtney Thomas >> >> >> >>John Cupp wrote: >> >> >>>Hello, >>> >>>My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few >>> > Boatbuilding > >>>magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell >>>completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In >>> > the > >>>60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base >>> > at > >>>Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified >>> > welder > >>>and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for >>> > one > >>>of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built >>>more than five boats. >>> >>>I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you >>> > will > >>>not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your >>>questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I >>> > don't > >>>know I can find out in very short order from some of the >>> > engineers > >>>that designed the tools. >>> >>>A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane >>> > to > >>>use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I >>> > discovered > >>>writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from >>> > looking at > >>>some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. >>> > I > >>>love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. >>> >>>John Cupp >>> >>>boatdock@k... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>s/v Mutiny >>Rhodes Bounty II >>lying Oriental, NC >>WDB5619 >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4537|4531|2004-07-14 12:38:09|David K McComber|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a Circumnavigation. In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' aluminum Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to make the longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a circumnavigation Pazaps A 20' Passagemaker Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. 450 liters of fuel. 150 liters of water. e-mail loftsman@... Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too distant future. I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate the necessary funds and time to build something larger. I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very good for a novice sailor! Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely this? Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" materials, plus tough as nails as per above. If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi-custom boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing invite for coffee all stay of course! Well that's it for now. Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! Yours sincerely, Jim Douglas Vancouver, B.C. The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year period and though she won't likely be large she has to be comfortable. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4538|4484|2004-07-14 13:44:51|John Cupp|Re: Hello From A New Member|Courtney, A Miller Trailblazer 301 D is just about $7,000.00 US and is a heavy unit at 690 lbs or 313 Kg. My boat will need a gen set and the Kuboto diesel engine is easy to get parts for. It is stick, MIG and TIG capable. It will run AC TIG at 225 amps (100 percent duty cycle) but still go down to 35 amps for 20-gauge aluminum if you want to weld that thin of an alloy. Right now I was looking at a cold molded hull before I discovered this type of construction and I am in the process of building my Boat Shop 60' X 30'. With a considerable cost reduction in throwaway material with this type of construction, I might be convinced to build from steel. I will price out the difference between alloy and steel but a few years ago when I built a 100' commercial vessel for an Algae harvesting company it was a much lower cost to build from steel. The difference in Canada was reversed for some reason. Their price on alloy was almost cheap enough to have had the hull fully fabricated there and then trucked down to the US. The transportation ruined the price. Even in sections, the cost for transporting did not pencil out. I just sold both a Hobart and Miller stand-alone units I had leased out to an Algae harvest company. In the terms of the lease, they had to repair any damage and both needed rebuilt by the Algae Company. After the rebuilds, I sold them for 75 percent of new value to another fabrication company. I would gladly lease more welders for the return profit I made from those units. An onboard welder in any metal boat is a good thing and some stand-alone models are very small but effective if you do not mind gasoline on board. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > John, > > Thank you for your time. I can tell you're real busy :-) > > Anyway, how much does a Trailblazer 301D cost new ? Is it Miller ? > > I assume it's an inverter type. Is the weight no problem ? You must have > a big boat otherwise, huh ? > > My current boat is only 10 Tons and by the time it's ready to go a > welder of any size would be unfeasible. > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > > > > John Cupp wrote: > > > Hello Courtney, > > > > I have a friend that owns a Miller Shopmaster 300 and it is very much > > a lot of machine for the money you spend. I want a portable self > > powered machine and have my mind set on the Trailblazer 301 D. I try > > to buy everything in diesel because it is easy to acquire even in > > third world countries. On the very plus side it is a 10 KW generator > > on top of a great welder. I know I could make at least good fuel > > supplies from welding needed on boats along my journeys. > > > > > > As far as a home made plasma cutter is concerned I haven't seen one > > yet that was reliable enough to build myself. I have an older unit > > that I must replace if I plan on building one of these designs. The > > duty cycle is entirely to small for any good work. Since the plans > > are in auto cad I could have all of the plates cut with CNC flame > > cutters that are infinitely precise. Sorry that I didn't answer > > sooner but I had to travel to town yesterday and deal for a new car > > for my wife. I should have stayed home because found my wife was a > > shark with the salesmen. I decided that I will never get divorced > > because I would not want my wife as an enemy. > > > > The good thing is that a diesel welder is more within my reach > > because she has what she wanted. I would be interested in the plans > > for the plasma cutter but I fear the power supply would still be > > expensive. > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > > >>John, > >> > >>Happy to hear from someone with your background ! > >> > >>I am interested in buying a Miller Shopmaster in that it can do > >> > > Mig, Tig > > > >>& Stick welding. Do you have opinions of this machine ? > >> > >>Also, I was on a site recently of one who had built a plasma cutter > >> > > very > > > >>cheaply. Are you aware of such "doings" and if so, can you point me > >> > > to > > > >>information regarding how to do this properly and well ? > >> > >>Cordially, > >> > >>Courtney Thomas > >> > >> > >> > >>John Cupp wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hello, > >>> > >>>My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few > >>> > > Boatbuilding > > > >>>magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell > >>>completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In > >>> > > the > > > >>>60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base > >>> > > at > > > >>>Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified > >>> > > welder > > > >>>and worked in the maintenance department there building parts for > >>> > > one > > > >>>of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already built > >>>more than five boats. > >>> > >>>I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you > >>> > > will > > > >>>not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your > >>>questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I > >>> > > don't > > > >>>know I can find out in very short order from some of the > >>> > > engineers > > > >>>that designed the tools. > >>> > >>>A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane > >>> > > to > > > >>>use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I > >>> > > discovered > > > >>>writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from > >>> > > looking at > > > >>>some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in me. > >>> > > I > > > >>>love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. > >>> > >>>John Cupp > >>> > >>>boatdock@k... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > >>> > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>s/v Mutiny > >>Rhodes Bounty II > >>lying Oriental, NC > >>WDB5619 > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4539|4433|2004-07-14 14:52:58|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|I'm having a mail bounce problem - hope this doesn't post twice - apologies if it does. Mechanical Desktop 6 pros- can do almost anything cons - can do almost anything In MD6 you can build a part, in steel or alloy for example, add loads, and run a pretty complete structural analysis. The problem is finding enough time in ones life to learn how to use it. The learning curve is quite steep. Carlson's Hulls (free) is probably the best program for novice designers to use. Turn off auto splines, and if you know a little about origami, you can even come up with a pattern that will, with some tape and imagination, fold. I used Hulls to validate the software for the JM50 was working correctly. I even came up with an Excel spreadsheet to feed Hulls, that allowed us to calculate and generate new boats in Excel, and then validate the patterns in Hulls. Hulls is not as accurate as our custom software, but until you get to full sized metal errors are not an much of an issue - at scale in paper you won't notice them. I also use Rhino, which is very close to the most used features in MD6, for a fraction of the price. I don't know it as well as MD6, so I stick with MD6, but if I was starting from scratch I might choose Rhino instead. However, I haven't used Rhino enough to know its limits. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Liebenberg" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > Gerd, congratulations on your hull! I like the part on your website devoted to the computer design of origami shapes from chined hulls. Thanks for dumbing it down a little for the masses. > Greg, care to enlighten us a little on the software that you use, its strengths and limitations? > > Paul Liebenberg. > > PS, I will be using lots of transverse framing welded to the hull in the area of the skeg ( a la > Brent) My thoughts on the subject? I do not want the hull to flex, but it is unlikely that I will strike a sharp object in this area of the boat. > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4540|4465|2004-07-14 14:53:00|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Skeg calculations|I'd really be interested in seeing an analysis of the failure and understanding the causes. I think you said Mungo failed after 2 days on the second grounding, and this has implication for everyone to make sure we know the causes and prevention. Brent, it has been pointed out a couple of times, but I don't think you have quite understood, that making the skeg on the boats 2 times wider only made the attachments 2 times stronger (at best - we would have to know how the skeg failed to be sure). This has implications, because the boats could still have insufficient safety margins. I know you have said you thought the skegs were now 8 times stronger, which means that they are in reality 4 times weaker than you thought. I don't know if you are simply not reading the email, or stone walling on this subject, or what - but it is important. Most designers, if they discovered their skeg attachments were 4 times weaker than they thought would be very concerned, because typically this will bring the design strength well under the safety margins, which could put the boats at risk. Could you please acknowledge that you have read the emails, that you are aware that the strength of your skegs and keels may well be different than what you had published, and take corrective action as might be indicated so that we can move on to other topics. Contrary to what has been said, no one on this site is out to get Brent. I am concerned, as should everyone one be, that every boat be as safe as possible, which means understanding why failures occur, and making sure that corrections are in fact correct. thanks, Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 2:20 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > The webs run accross the skeg weld on the inside make for continuous > metal from the skeg to the web at the points where they cross, > Welding gussets to the web at the weld line on the inside can result > in the same effect structurally as you'd have if the metal went right > through, as long as both the outside and inside welds were 100% > strength. > I'll get Alex to post the pictures of Mungo in the Surf as soon as > possible, the grounding he survived with very little dammage after 16 > days in big surf > Brent Swain. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi Ben and all. > > > > Doing bathroom remodeling - but I will give you some ideas. > > > > 1. I don't see how an externally mounted skeg, with reinforcing > inside will work - unless the reinforcing substantially matches the > > pattern of the skeg outside. If the pattern is not matched then > the loads of the skeg will be transferred through the skin of the > > hull to the internal reinforcing. Over the very small area that > the framing is in direct contact with the skeg through the hull the > > sheer loads are going to be fantastic. Over the rest of the area, > the skin will bend and flex as it transfers the load and > > eventually fatigue. I believe the metal boat society forum > recognizes this as a problem and has a fix listed - which seems only > > prudent to me to retrofit. > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than just > keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I think) > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > > 4. Assume the strength of the skeg fore and aft is approximately > the same as a piece of 3/8 inch by 2 feet. If we pierce the skin > > with the skeg, for a distance of 1 foot, how much 1 foot high by > 3/8 inch internal framing would we need to equal the strength of > > the skeg? > > > > (2^2)/(1^2) = 4 feet (height not length). > > > > 5. I'm going to take a bit of a leap of faith here and suggest > that this is not 4 full width floors, rather 4 x 1/2 width webs, but > > I could well be wrong. This needs to be checked. For best > advantage you would want it concentrated at the ends of the skeg, > rather > > than the middle. Some could run for and aft, depending on a > calculation of side loading, and probably should, and could form part > > of a girder to join the skeg, engine, keel and mast step. > > > > 6. We would need to add a safety factor - say 1.5 - 2.0 for > cyclical side loads - depending on the shape of the hull - a 30 > > degree deadrise might equal a 1.5 safety factor (sin 30 = 0.5), and > if the transom coincides with the aft end of the skeg, we could > > incorporate this in place of some of the framing. Also, the skeg > would probably fail through torsion, which with a detail > > calculation may show that we do not need this much framing. > > > > 7. The shape of the skeg could also be a factor, with a shallow > leading edge absorbing less energy. A longer skeg gets more > > support from the hull, but it is also stronger fore and aft, so > that if you hit it hard enough the length doesn't matter much. This > > is probably only significant if the skeg was so long that it could > never fail in a log strike. > > > > 8. What this shows (to me anyways) is that at first glance it > could take some pretty serious framing for the skeg to not damage the > > hull if you hit a log or something similar with enough force to > fold up the skeg. Comments on this are welcome as this is off the > > top of my head and I may well have missed something. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ben Tucker" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:56 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > > > > > > > Hi greg > > > > > > I'm also very interested in getting a usable set of numbers for > > > strengthening my piss poor roberts designed skeg, Another Job to > do! > > > > > > As I understood it Brent recommends reinforcing the skegs > internally, > > > the question was the structure of the fin keel designs which are > > > really almost a traditonal cutaway 3/4 keel with the rudder moved > aft > > > to a skeg rather than a true fin keel(see Photos of the 36'ocean > > > pearl on this site) > > > > > > The reinforcement shown in the files section under "Swain Bare > hull > > > interior" seems to show some fairly solid floors, tying into the > > > first set of stringers (athough Welded to the plating), wether > these > > > are as designed or not I don't know. > > > > > > The twin keel arrangment shown in the file Austin hull also seems > > > fairly well internally braced. > > > > > > I agree completely with you that the keels and skegs need good > solid > > > internal structure, the photos seem to show this on some of Brents > > > designs, especaily in veiw of the heavy plating, deep V, and wide > > > long keel. However if I was building I would personally add > something > > > like the twin keel structure for the fin keel, because I can only > see > > > it helping and the weight is in the right place. > > > > > > Built up your model 30 footer, and was impressed by the way it > folds, > > > thats some kind of 'magic' your using. The design would suit > someone > > > wanting a modern style of boat very nicely. > > > > > > cheers > > > > > > Ben > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Hi Ted, > > > > > > > > I'll try and make sure anything I post is something you could > use > > > directly yourself. I'm working on a log strike example that > > > > buckles the skeg which I hope to post when it makes sense. > > > > > > > > For building, usually I do some numbers, and Ron goes from > > > experience. If we both get the same answer we feel pretty > > > confident. If > > > > our answers differ, then we get to do some fun stuff. Build a > > > model and break it, until we are happy we understand the problem. > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "edward_stoneuk" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 1:43 PM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Skeg calculations > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > > > > > I assumed that you could advise us how to calculate the > dimensions > > > > > for the support framing for a skeg. Do you just use your > > > experience > > > > > on your boats? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4541|4531|2004-07-14 14:53:05|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi James, The first boat we went offshore in was 26 feet. Cruised for three years until we could afford something bigger. There are a number of answer to your question. Sailboat owners for the most part will only buy round bilged boats. Power boat owners are used to chines, so metal boats are easier to sell to that market. Round bilged metal boats are typically harder to build, which increases their costs, which can make them uncompetitive price-wise with FG boats. Most yachts are constructed of FG, because there are significant advantages in the labor required to build the boat to a "yacht" finish - what might be called the "refrigerator" look. Most people evaluate on reputation, but buy on looks, and finish is what sells if two boats have an equal reputation. Commercial boats do not require the same level of finish - "butt ugly" is acceptable - as long as they are strong and economical. Finishing cost are often 1/2 the total cost, so by leaving the boats "unfinished", commercial boats can be built for considerable less. By building them in metal, they can be strong. The fuel efficiency of alloy is an important aspect for power boats. Commercial owners do not want the boats laid up maintaining the paint - they want the boats out working - so alloy is popular for that reason. In smaller boat sizes steel is not typically used, because of the weight of steel results in plating too thin to be practical. When you make metal 1/2 as thick, it becomes 8 times easier to bend. This leads to structural problems as boats become smaller. Alloy, being much thicker for the same strength avoids these problems until the boats become much smaller. No boat is indestructible, and no sailor should venture offshore with that thought in mind. Metal will increase your odds of survival in some circumstances, and false confidence will reduce them in many more. I know of many more boats that have lost their rigs in collisions than have been sunk. Poor maintenance sinks more boats than freighters, whales, logs, containers and reefs combined. A 26-28 foot boat constructed in alloy will typically be stronger for the weight, perform better and resist impact better as compared to steel. Fatigue is an issue in all metal boats, especially appendages, as it leads to premature ageing and failure without warning, and is often accompanied by the loss of life. This requires that metal boats be built much stronger than would be indicated by the material strength alone, especially in way of the appendages. Alloy boats can age faster than steel if they are weakly built, but steel is by no means immune to this problem. Building the boats equally strong all over ensures that the keel, skeg, and rudder age at the same speed as the rest of the boat. As has been pointed out this is not possible if the appendages are simply supported on the skin. warning - commercial message follows. do not read further if you find this offensive. Our business is semi-custom boats. It has been our experience that no two boat owners want the same boat, so we do not offer "stock" plans - everyone wants changes. For example: JM50 and Pangaea are both built from the same patterns, but they are very different boats. We offer a number of different hull shapes - and can computer generate a new hull to meet your needs - and will then customizes the design to meet your requirements. In effect, we supply the plans for "free", and make our money helping you customize and build the boat. Our aim is to save you more money than you will spend through mistakes, time and materials wasted trying to do the job without our help. Trial and error can be a big part of the cost of amateur construction, and lots of people end up doing the same job 2 or three times. Our job is to prevent this. To minimize costs we encourage customer participation in the project, as there is considerable room for the customer to do the planning and buying, and take over the construction as their experience level grows. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Douglas" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 1:16 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi-custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4542|4433|2004-07-14 16:02:56|gdham0682|Re: Hull strength|Hello Greg E. & Group I had no idea that Mechanical Desktop had finite element capabilities! I use MD5 at work and we always export the 3D geometry (turbine blades)from MD5 (or CATIA) into ANSYS (or ABAQUS) for our structural analysis. So I looked into the MD5 help files and there it was; 2D and 3D FEA. They do caution that it might not work for specialized FEA but I'd love to model a hull using surfaces or shells and then load it up and see where the strong and weak spots are in a hull. An FEA of the skeg-hull interface would probably shed a lot of light on whether or not they are being built strong enough. Of course you'd have to make some assumptions on potential loadings but, that could be worked out. As for Carlson's Hulls program, I have also verified it's accuracy with an excel spreadsheet using the triangle method for unfolding and I have built 2 wooden canoes from Hulls produced layouts. Hulls seems to be fairly accurate and it is a very good deal being free and all. In my second canoe I had a tumblehome chine that started strong at the transom and then tapered to flat at the bow. The cut outs were very accurate and the vanishing top chine looks very good on my canoe. The canoes are plywood not metal but the first one weighs enough that some people might think it is metal :) lol. As for Rhino; I have never used it but, I hear that it can do the unfolding calculation for you. Being able to model a hull and then unfold the panels in the same program would be nice. Rhino is also cheaper than Mechanical Desktop. Later Greg H. > > Mechanical Desktop 6 > > pros- can do almost anything > cons - can do almost anything > > In MD6 you can build a part, in steel or alloy for example, add loads, and run a pretty complete structural analysis. The problem > is finding enough time in ones life to learn how to use it. The learning curve is quite steep. > > Carlson's Hulls (free) is probably the best program for novice designers to use. > > I also use Rhino, which is very close to the most used features in MD6, for a fraction of the price. I don't know it as well as > MD6, so I stick with MD6, but if I was starting from scratch I might choose Rhino instead. However, I haven't used Rhino enough to > know its limits. > | 4543|4484|2004-07-14 16:23:23|Brent Geery|Re: Hello From A New Member|On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:54:26 -0500, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Anyway, how much does a Trailblazer 301D cost new ? Is it Miller ? Do a search on Google. Like like about $6,500. Ouch! -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4544|4527|2004-07-14 16:27:28|Michael Casling|Re: Origami Dinghy|What size are the more common dinghys? Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:08 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Dinghy Hi all, Someone posted a great photo of an origami dinghy under sail back in March, powered by a crab-claw sail rig. Anyone have info about this boat? What size? I'd like to do a large capacity sailing dinghy for my boat and would be curious to know anything about it. You'll be interested to know that your group moderator is heading out soon on the great "scrap yard" trek to get all the bits and pieces for completing the bare hull. I don't think I'll be sailing by fall, but at least we'll be nicely trimmed out with stainless before winter! I now have the pilot house on, as well as cockpit, so will hopefully get the cover shot updated soon for all to see. Regards, Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4545|4531|2004-07-14 16:28:06|Michael Casling|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is about the fuel consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a Circumnavigation. In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' aluminum Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to make the longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a circumnavigation Pazaps A 20' Passagemaker Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. 450 liters of fuel. 150 liters of water. e-mail loftsman@... Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too distant future. I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate the necessary funds and time to build something larger. I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very good for a novice sailor! Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely this? Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" materials, plus tough as nails as per above. If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi-custom boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing invite for coffee all stay of course! Well that's it for now. Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! Yours sincerely, Jim Douglas Vancouver, B.C. The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year period and though she won't likely be large she has to be comfortable. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4546|4484|2004-07-14 16:31:04|Courtney Thomas|Re: Hello From A New Member|John, You're ahead of me in all this...having just bought a place in Nova Scotia, I'm looking to also build a boat shop/barn. Any ideas on the least expensive [decent] way to do this up there ? I'm still in Atlanta but will be going back and forth over the next year, at least, getting things "put together". I recently bought a tractor-trailer rig and am in the middle of modifying it to haul the boat up to NS, as well as use it for Winter storage on my property. But next is a shop/barn. My current boat is fiberglass but I'd like to try building a steel/aluminum one. I bought the Shopmaster. Hope I didn't get the wrong one but I'm used to those feelings after buying houses, boats, etc.... :-) Cordially, Courtney John Cupp wrote: > Courtney, > > A Miller Trailblazer 301 D is just about $7,000.00 US and is a heavy > unit at 690 lbs or 313 Kg. My boat will need a gen set and the > Kuboto diesel engine is easy to get parts for. It is stick, MIG and > TIG capable. It will run AC TIG at 225 amps (100 percent duty > cycle) but still go down to 35 amps for 20-gauge aluminum if you want > to weld that thin of an alloy. Right now I was looking at a cold > molded hull before I discovered this type of construction and I am in > the process of building my Boat Shop 60' X 30'. With a considerable > cost reduction in throwaway material with this type of construction, > I might be convinced to build from steel. > > I will price out the difference between alloy and steel but a few > years ago when I built a 100' commercial vessel for an Algae > harvesting company it was a much lower cost to build from steel. The > difference in Canada was reversed for some reason. Their price on > alloy was almost cheap enough to have had the hull fully fabricated > there and then trucked down to the US. The transportation ruined the > price. Even in sections, the cost for transporting did not pencil > out. > > I just sold both a Hobart and Miller stand-alone units I had leased > out to an Algae harvest company. In the terms of the lease, they had > to repair any damage and both needed rebuilt by the Algae Company. > After the rebuilds, I sold them for 75 percent of new value to > another fabrication company. I would gladly lease more welders for > the return profit I made from those units. An onboard welder in any > metal boat is a good thing and some stand-alone models are very small > but effective if you do not mind gasoline on board. > > John Cupp > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > >>John, >> >>Thank you for your time. I can tell you're real busy :-) >> >>Anyway, how much does a Trailblazer 301D cost new ? Is it Miller ? >> >>I assume it's an inverter type. Is the weight no problem ? You must >> > have > >>a big boat otherwise, huh ? >> >>My current boat is only 10 Tons and by the time it's ready to go a >>welder of any size would be unfeasible. >> >>Cordially, >> >>Courtney >> >> >> >> >>John Cupp wrote: >> >> >>>Hello Courtney, >>> >>>I have a friend that owns a Miller Shopmaster 300 and it is very >>> > much > >>>a lot of machine for the money you spend. I want a portable self >>>powered machine and have my mind set on the Trailblazer 301 D. I >>> > try > >>>to buy everything in diesel because it is easy to acquire even in >>>third world countries. On the very plus side it is a 10 KW >>> > generator > >>>on top of a great welder. I know I could make at least good fuel >>>supplies from welding needed on boats along my journeys. >>> >>> >>>As far as a home made plasma cutter is concerned I haven't seen >>> > one > >>>yet that was reliable enough to build myself. I have an older >>> > unit > >>>that I must replace if I plan on building one of these designs. >>> > The > >>>duty cycle is entirely to small for any good work. Since the >>> > plans > >>>are in auto cad I could have all of the plates cut with CNC flame >>>cutters that are infinitely precise. Sorry that I didn't answer >>>sooner but I had to travel to town yesterday and deal for a new >>> > car > >>>for my wife. I should have stayed home because found my wife >>> > was a > >>>shark with the salesmen. I decided that I will never get >>> > divorced > >>>because I would not want my wife as an enemy. >>> >>>The good thing is that a diesel welder is more within my reach >>>because she has what she wanted. I would be interested in the >>> > plans > >>>for the plasma cutter but I fear the power supply would still be >>>expensive. >>> >>>John Cupp >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas >>> > > >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>John, >>>> >>>>Happy to hear from someone with your background ! >>>> >>>>I am interested in buying a Miller Shopmaster in that it can do >>>> >>>> >>>Mig, Tig >>> >>> >>>>& Stick welding. Do you have opinions of this machine ? >>>> >>>>Also, I was on a site recently of one who had built a plasma >>>> > cutter > >>>very >>> >>> >>>>cheaply. Are you aware of such "doings" and if so, can you point >>>> > me > >>>to >>> >>> >>>>information regarding how to do this properly and well ? >>>> >>>>Cordially, >>>> >>>>Courtney Thomas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>John Cupp wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Hello, >>>>> >>>>>My name is John Cupp and I am a tool columnist for a few >>>>> >>>>> >>>Boatbuilding >>> >>> >>>>>magazines. I found a site called "The Yago Project" and fell >>>>>completely in love with this new art of boat construction. In >>>>> >>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>>>>60's and early 70's I worked at Ames Research Center a NASA Base >>>>> >>>>> >>>at >>> >>> >>>>>Moffet Field in California. I was a machinist and certified >>>>> >>>>> >>>welder >>> >>> >>>>>and worked in the maintenance department there building parts >>>>> > for > >>>one >>> >>> >>>>>of a kind machines. At that point in my life I had already >>>>> > built > >>>>>more than five boats. >>>>> >>>>>I am very fascinated with this type of building and I hope you >>>>> >>>>> >>>will >>> >>> >>>>>not tire of my questions. Just maybe I can answer some of your >>>>>questions about welders or tools that your interested in. If I >>>>> >>>>> >>>don't >>> >>> >>>>>know I can find out in very short order from some of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>engineers >>> >>> >>>>>that designed the tools. >>>>> >>>>>A few years ago I had a few accidents that have given me a cane >>>>> >>>>> >>>to >>> >>> >>>>>use and a load limit on what I can carry. That is when I >>>>> >>>>> >>>discovered >>> >>> >>>>>writing so my experience could be passed on. I think from >>>>> >>>>> >>>looking at >>> >>> >>>>>some of these plans I may have at least one more big boat in >>>>> > me. > >>>I >>> >>> >>>>>love the ocean, sailing, and jst plain being on the water. >>>>> >>>>>John Cupp >>>>> >>>>>boatdock@k... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>>>> >>>>> >>>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >>> >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>-- >>>>s/v Mutiny >>>>Rhodes Bounty II >>>>lying Oriental, NC >>>>WDB5619 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- >>> > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>s/v Mutiny >>Rhodes Bounty II >>lying Oriental, NC >>WDB5619 >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4547|4433|2004-07-14 16:41:30|Gerd|CAD|I do everything in Rhino. When I started out with CAD I had no idea how all this stuff was working, and began with hulls as well. That's very good for beginning as it does not clutter your brain with features and lets you concentrate on teh definiton of a hull shape and calcs and play around easily with variations. After that, Rhino was easier to get into, once the priciples of describing a hull in 3D were already there. Rhino does developed sheets, but it is a bit stubborn as to what it cosiders devellopable. I could not make it understand the origami principle and finally unrolled the central chined parts and the conical ends seperately and then joined the flat shapes into a single on - there is all the detail for that on my site. If somebody could point me to a more intelligent way to get the same result I would appreciate ;-) I also had a look at touchcad, http://www.touchcad.com, which, from the examples, looks like just the thing and build exactly for origami.. I think I also read that the guy designed some origami boats - anybody has background on that? Must say though that I had some trouble getting used to the interface and workflow, and gave up in the end, but it does not look bad at all. Gerd The YAGO Project http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "gdham0682" wrote: > Hello Greg E. & Group > > I had no idea that Mechanical Desktop had finite element > capabilities! I use MD5 at work and we always export the 3D geometry > (turbine blades)from MD5 (or CATIA) into ANSYS (or ABAQUS) for our > structural analysis. So I looked into the MD5 help files and there > it was; 2D and 3D FEA. They do caution that it might not work for > specialized FEA but I'd love to model a hull using surfaces or shells > and then load it up and see where the strong and weak spots are in a > hull. > > An FEA of the skeg-hull interface would probably shed a lot of light > on whether or not they are being built strong enough. Of course > you'd have to make some assumptions on potential loadings but, that > could be worked out. > > As for Carlson's Hulls program, I have also verified it's accuracy > with an excel spreadsheet using the triangle method for unfolding and > I have built 2 wooden canoes from Hulls produced layouts. Hulls > seems to be fairly accurate and it is a very good deal being free and > all. In my second canoe I had a tumblehome chine that started strong > at the transom and then tapered to flat at the bow. The cut outs > were very accurate and the vanishing top chine looks very good on my > canoe. The canoes are plywood not metal but the first one weighs > enough that some people might think it is metal :) lol. > > As for Rhino; I have never used it but, I hear that it can do the > unfolding calculation for you. Being able to model a hull and then > unfold the panels in the same program would be nice. Rhino is also > cheaper than Mechanical Desktop. > > > Later > Greg H. > > > > > > Mechanical Desktop 6 > > > > pros- can do almost anything > > cons - can do almost anything > > > > In MD6 you can build a part, in steel or alloy for example, add > loads, and run a pretty complete structural analysis. The problem > > is finding enough time in ones life to learn how to use it. The > learning curve is quite steep. > > > > Carlson's Hulls (free) is probably the best program for novice > designers to use. > > > > > > > > I also use Rhino, which is very close to the most used features in > MD6, for a fraction of the price. I don't know it as well as > > MD6, so I stick with MD6, but if I was starting from scratch I > might choose Rhino instead. However, I haven't used Rhino enough to > > know its limits. > > | 4548|4531|2004-07-14 17:14:55|David K McComber|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|"Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess of 3000 nm. It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the Pacific or Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The cost of fuel is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and running rigging. Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, so why carry all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is about the fuel consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a Circumnavigation. In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' aluminum Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to make the longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a circumnavigation Pazaps A 20' Passagemaker Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. 450 liters of fuel. 150 liters of water. e-mail loftsman@... Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too distant future. I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate the necessary funds and time to build something larger. I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very good for a novice sailor! Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely this? Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" materials, plus tough as nails as per above. If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi-custom boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing invite for coffee all stay of course! Well that's it for now. Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! Yours sincerely, Jim Douglas Vancouver, B.C. The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year period and though she won't likely be large she has to be comfortable. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4549|4433|2004-07-14 17:20:11|Robert Gainer|Re: Hull strength|If I assume a skeg that is a box that is 24 inches long 6 inches wide and 4 feet deep with a load of 200 lbs per square inch, I get a stress of 38,333 lbs per inch of weld at the joint to the hull. And if the skeg is the same except its now 12 inches wide I get 19,166 lps per inch for the stress. Now take it too an extreme and make the skeg 24 inches wide my math says I get 9,583 lbs per inch. When I resolve the force this way am I making a valid analysis of the loading at the joint? I have never looked at the skeg before but this is the method that I would use to calculate the size of keel bolts that I need in a wood or fiberglass hull. With all of the talk on this site I am now getting second thoughts on this. Bob _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963| 4550|4531|2004-07-14 17:48:07|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|But, what if the engine quits, halfway between San Fransisco & Hawaii? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > "Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. > > Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. > > Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess of 3000 nm. > It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the Pacific or > Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The cost of fuel > is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and running > rigging. > > Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, so why carry > all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@s...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is about the fuel > consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a > Circumnavigation. > > In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' aluminum > Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. > > It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to make the > longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a > circumnavigation > > Pazaps > > A 20' Passagemaker > > > > Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. > > She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. > > Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. > > 450 liters of fuel. > > 150 liters of water. > > > > e-mail loftsman@u... > > > > Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@t...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089879473/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > g> > > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=605209783> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089923287/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=322205453> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4551|4465|2004-07-14 18:05:20|edward_stoneuk|Re: Skeg calculations|Greg, When you said: > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I think) would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > only the small area the skeg is welded to). Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I missed the third dimension? Regards, Ted| 4552|4531|2004-07-14 18:21:22|David K McComber|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|This is no more likely then a turnbuckle failing causing the loss of the mast, lost one once luckily the air was light and we were less then a mile from the marina, or we would have lost the stick. I have owned 6 sail boats over the years. The first one was given me by my father for my birthday 52 years ago. The last one was a 30' slope. I have sailed the great lakes for more then 20 years, and have found that I spent most of the time under power. If you keep diesel fuel clean you are more likely to suffer some other disaster then have your engine quit. One 40' Passagemaker just completed a circumnavigation, and there is a rally crossing the Atlantic. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation But, what if the engine quits, halfway between San Fransisco & Hawaii? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > "Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. > > Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. > > Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess of 3000 nm. > It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the Pacific or > Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The cost of fuel > is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and running > rigging. > > Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, so why carry > all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@s...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is about the fuel > consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a > Circumnavigation. > > In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' aluminum > Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. > > It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to make the > longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a > circumnavigation > > Pazaps > > A 20' Passagemaker > > > > Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. > > She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. > > Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. > > 450 liters of fuel. > > 150 liters of water. > > > > e-mail loftsman@u... > > > > Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@t...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089879473/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > g> > > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=605209783> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089923287/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=322205453> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4553|4531|2004-07-14 18:24:35|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Welcome, James After reading your posts & the responses, I thought I'd make a few suggestions. If you are doing this on a healthy budget, then I'd suggest that you get Greg Elliott to build you an aluminum sailboat in the size that you desire, customized to your wishes. If you are doing this on a "barely enough to do this" budget, wherein you plan to build her yourself, I'd suggest that you step up to 30' and build in steel. You don't want to risk your neck on a boat that you "learned" to weld aluminum on. I lived aboard a 30' boat for 3 years with my wife & dog - though, my wife spent most of her time at our apartment - and it seemed awfully small at times, smaller would be too tight for me. Though I am going to build a BS forty-footer - "one day" - I, too, will be looking to customize the decks. Regards, Mike "James Douglas" wrote: > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. | 4554|4531|2004-07-14 18:40:13|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|David: Sorry. I should have typed "LOL" after my sentence. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > This is no more likely then a turnbuckle failing causing the loss of the > mast, lost one once luckily the air was light and we were less then a mile > from the marina, or we would have lost the stick. > > I have owned 6 sail boats over the years. The first one was given me by my > father for my birthday 52 years ago. The last one was a 30' slope. I have > sailed the great lakes for more then 20 years, and have found that I spent > most of the time under power. > > If you keep diesel fuel clean you are more likely to suffer some other > disaster then have your engine quit. > > One 40' Passagemaker just completed a circumnavigation, and there is a rally > crossing the Atlantic. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:46 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > But, what if the engine quits, halfway between San Fransisco & > Hawaii? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > wrote: > > "Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. > > > > Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. > > > > Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess of > 3000 nm. > > It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the > Pacific or > > Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The > cost of fuel > > is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and > running > > rigging. > > > > Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, so > why carry > > all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@s...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is > about the fuel > > consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David K McComber > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a > > Circumnavigation. > > > > In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' > aluminum > > Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. > > > > It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to > make the > > longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a > > circumnavigation > > > > Pazaps > > > > A 20' Passagemaker > > > > > > > > Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. > > > > She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. > > > > Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. > > > > 450 liters of fuel. > > > > 150 liters of water. > > > > > > > > e-mail loftsman@u... > > > > > > > > Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@t...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of > interest > > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not > too > > distant future. > > > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a > few > > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to > try > > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to > accumulate > > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that > I > > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, > logs, > > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, > very > > good for a novice sailor! > > > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of > the > > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy > give > > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum > at > > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly > find > > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot > range? > > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception > for > > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the > impression > > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to > the > > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing > his > > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done > precisely > > this? > > > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed > that > > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial > vs "marine" > > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- > custom > > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this > is a > > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have > no > > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and > lower > > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I > can > > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the > 3 to > > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design > out > > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). > The > > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > > > Well that's it for now. > > > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > Jim Douglas > > Vancouver, B.C. > > > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 > year > > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > 49/D=gr > > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089879473/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 > 4ck1na/ > > > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > > > > > > 0804.jp > > g> > > > > > > > > > > M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=groups/S= > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=605209783> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > -- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > 49/D=gr > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089923287/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 > 4ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > > > > > 1504.jp > > g> > > > > > > > > M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=groups/S= > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=322205453> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089928089/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=570546817> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4555|4531|2004-07-14 18:43:11|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|David: Sorry. I should have typed "LOL" after my sentence. Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > This is no more likely then a turnbuckle failing causing the loss of the > mast, lost one once luckily the air was light and we were less then a mile > from the marina, or we would have lost the stick. > > I have owned 6 sail boats over the years. The first one was given me by my > father for my birthday 52 years ago. The last one was a 30' slope. I have > sailed the great lakes for more then 20 years, and have found that I spent > most of the time under power. > > If you keep diesel fuel clean you are more likely to suffer some other > disaster then have your engine quit. > > One 40' Passagemaker just completed a circumnavigation, and there is a rally > crossing the Atlantic. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:46 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > But, what if the engine quits, halfway between San Fransisco & > Hawaii? > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > wrote: > > "Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. > > > > Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. > > > > Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess of > 3000 nm. > > It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the > Pacific or > > Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The > cost of fuel > > is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and > running > > rigging. > > > > Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, so > why carry > > all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@s...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is > about the fuel > > consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David K McComber > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a > > Circumnavigation. > > > > In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' > aluminum > > Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. > > > > It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to > make the > > longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a > > circumnavigation > > > > Pazaps > > > > A 20' Passagemaker > > > > > > > > Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. > > > > She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. > > > > Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. > > > > 450 liters of fuel. > > > > 150 liters of water. > > > > > > > > e-mail loftsman@u... > > > > > > > > Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@t...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of > interest > > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not > too > > distant future. > > > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a > few > > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to > try > > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to > accumulate > > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that > I > > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, > logs, > > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, > very > > good for a novice sailor! > > > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of > the > > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy > give > > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum > at > > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly > find > > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot > range? > > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception > for > > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the > impression > > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to > the > > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing > his > > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done > precisely > > this? > > > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed > that > > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial > vs "marine" > > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- > custom > > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this > is a > > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have > no > > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and > lower > > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I > can > > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the > 3 to > > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design > out > > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). > The > > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > > > Well that's it for now. > > > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > Jim Douglas > > Vancouver, B.C. > > > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 > year > > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > 49/D=gr > > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089879473/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 > 4ck1na/ > > > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > > > > > > 0804.jp > > g> > > > > > > > > > > M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=groups/S= > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=605209783> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > -- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > 49/D=gr > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089923287/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 > 4ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > > > > > 1504.jp > > g> > > > > > > > > M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=groups/S= > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=322205453> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089928089/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=570546817> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4556|4465|2004-07-14 18:58:45|easysoftware98|Re: Skeg calculations|email problems are proving frustrating. In this case it didn't matter how deep the skeg was in the water. We were going to sheer it off, so the only important thing would be how much force it took to resist this. A deeper skeg would take less force at the bottom end to sheer off, but just as much at the top to resist as a short skeg. g --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Greg, > > When you said: > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than > just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I think) > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I > missed the third dimension? > > Regards, > > Ted | 4557|22|2004-07-14 19:02:42|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /tour du monde en 26 pieds.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Aluminum 26ft around the world You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/tour%20du%20monde%20en%2026%20pieds.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4558|4558|2004-07-14 19:55:16|ben_azo|29ft twinkeelcruiser with an interesting layout|see an interesting layout for a cruiser for a couple with a spare bed for occasional guests in the album : Voilier ( 50pics + ) on a Westerly Konsort Duo with some transformations & refurbishing , in the Yahoo photoalbum : http://fr.photos.yahoo.com/ben_azo designing a similar hull for steel or alloy twinkeels or sideboards option classification bureau scantlings sure aint that difficult to design and built Old uncle Ben| 4559|4527|2004-07-14 20:25:06|brentswain38|Re: Origami Dinghy|One origami crabclaw dinghy was built and designed by John olson who sailed one of my 31 ft twin keelers from Vancouver to England a few years back. It was featured in a classic Boat magazine. I'll show you a copy when we meet again. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > What size are the more common dinghys? Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alex > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:08 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Origami Dinghy > > > Hi all, > > Someone posted a great photo of an origami dinghy under sail back in > March, powered by a crab-claw sail rig. Anyone have info about this > boat? What size? I'd like to do a large capacity sailing dinghy for > my boat and would be curious to know anything about it. > > You'll be interested to know that your group moderator is heading out > soon on the great "scrap yard" trek to get all the bits and pieces > for completing the bare hull. I don't think I'll be sailing by fall, > but at least we'll be nicely trimmed out with stainless before winter! > > I now have the pilot house on, as well as cockpit, so will hopefully > get the cover shot updated soon for all to see. > > Regards, > > Alex > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4560|4531|2004-07-14 20:33:47|brentswain38|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|A flush deck on a 26 footer would make an excessively top heavy boat, or merely crawling headroom below.While I don't mind making minor modifications, I generally stick to the basic design concept.I'd refuse to build anything which was unseaworthy or grossly ugly and disfunctional.When you talk about 28 ft, you might just as well go for the 31. Brent Swain -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > David: > Sorry. I should have typed "LOL" after my sentence. > Mike > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > wrote: > > This is no more likely then a turnbuckle failing causing the loss > of the > > mast, lost one once luckily the air was light and we were less > then a mile > > from the marina, or we would have lost the stick. > > > > I have owned 6 sail boats over the years. The first one was given > me by my > > father for my birthday 52 years ago. The last one was a 30' slope. > I have > > sailed the great lakes for more then 20 years, and have found that > I spent > > most of the time under power. > > > > If you keep diesel fuel clean you are more likely to suffer some > other > > disaster then have your engine quit. > > > > One 40' Passagemaker just completed a circumnavigation, and there > is a rally > > crossing the Atlantic. > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@y...] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:46 PM > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > But, what if the engine quits, halfway between San Fransisco & > > Hawaii? > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" > > wrote: > > > "Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. > > > > > > Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. > > > > > > Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess > of > > 3000 nm. > > > It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the > > Pacific or > > > Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The > > cost of fuel > > > is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and > > running > > > rigging. > > > > > > Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, > so > > why carry > > > all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. > > > > > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@s...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > > > > > I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is > > about the fuel > > > consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: David K McComber > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM > > > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > > I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a > > > Circumnavigation. > > > > > > In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' > > aluminum > > > Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. > > > > > > It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to > > make the > > > longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make > a > > > circumnavigation > > > > > > Pazaps > > > > > > A 20' Passagemaker > > > > > > > > > > > > Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. > > > > > > She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. > > > > > > Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. > > > > > > 450 liters of fuel. > > > > > > 150 liters of water. > > > > > > > > > > > > e-mail loftsman@u... > > > > > > > > > > > > Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > David McComber > > > > > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@t...] > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of > > Circumnavigation > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > > > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of > > interest > > > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not > > too > > > distant future. > > > > > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > > > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around > the > > > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite > a > > few > > > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > > > > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to > > try > > > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to > > accumulate > > > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > > > > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, > that > > I > > > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, > > logs, > > > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, > > very > > > good for a novice sailor! > > > > > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something > of > > the > > > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy > > give > > > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > > > > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in > aluminum > > at > > > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly > > find > > > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot > > range? > > > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the > exception > > for > > > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > > > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the > > impression > > > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to > > the > > > group in terms of weight savings being translated into > increase > > > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > > > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing > > his > > > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done > > precisely > > > this? > > > > > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest > in > > > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really > impressed > > that > > > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial > > vs "marine" > > > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > > > > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- > > custom > > > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. > this > > is a > > > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of > building > > > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have > > no > > > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush > deck. > > > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and > > lower > > > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure > I > > can > > > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for > the > > 3 to > > > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the > design > > out > > > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide > the > > > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of > course). > > The > > > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > > > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > > > > > Well that's it for now. > > > > > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > > > Jim Douglas > > > Vancouver, B.C. > > > > > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 > > year > > > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > > > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > 49/D=gr > > > > > > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089879473/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 > > 4ck1na/ > > > > > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 0804.jp > > > g> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=groups/S= > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=605209783> > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! 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Terms > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > 49/D=gr > > > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089923287/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 > > 4ck1na/ > > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? > > redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > > > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1504.jp > > > g> > > > > > > > > > > > > > M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=groups/S= > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=322205453> > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > subject=Unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! 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Terms > of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4561|4465|2004-07-14 20:43:13|brentswain38|Re: Skeg calculations|The deeper the skeg the greater the leverage the bottom would have on the base, and thus a deeper skeg would be more likely to be dammaged in a given impact with the bottom.As the sides are in a direct tension or compression, they would never tear, and the strength of the attachment with the hull would be the greatest survival factor. I once had a rock pass between my keels at hull speed and hit my skeg directly , no dammage. I guess that means it's strong enough in that direction. There is very little chance of a well atached skeg sheering off a large amount of steel at 60,000PSI on a boat which weighs far les than the total strength of the sheg. Side bending loads are the real concern. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "easysoftware98" wrote: > email problems are proving frustrating. > > In this case it didn't matter how deep the skeg was in the water. We > were going to sheer it off, so the only important thing would be how > much force it took to resist this. A deeper skeg would take less > force at the bottom end to sheer off, but just as much at the top to > resist as a short skeg. > > g > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Greg, > > > > When you said: > > > > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. > > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than > > just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I > think) > > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the > > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > > > > Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I > > missed the third dimension? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted | 4562|4562|2004-07-14 20:45:35|ben_azo|Do we need a keel or keels ?|sure not for endstability , just have a look at the 360° roll test pics I just posted as latest new pics in Photos so twinkeels can easely be replaced by two sideboards , less drag and more performance upwind. Old uncle Ben| 4563|22|2004-07-14 20:49:22|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /360�rolltest1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : do you realy need a keel ?? You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/360%80%A0%A0%B0rolltest1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4564|4465|2004-07-14 20:50:12|brentswain38|Re: Skeg calculations|Those high aspect ratio skegs often have a prop in front of them. Running a 2 inch sch 40 pipe from below the prop horizontally to the hull and fairing in the area ahead of the prop, with plate, taken to a point at the front of the resulting aperture will add a tremendous amount of additional strength, especially with a frontal impact with a log, while giving additional downwind control, without affecting the balance under sail in any significant way.Making the plate fairing wider at the top will add considerable lateral strength, especially if it is tied into internal transverse webs with gussets Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" wrote: > Greg, > > When you said: > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than > just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I think) > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I > missed the third dimension? > > Regards, > > Ted | 4565|4531|2004-07-14 20:53:30|Ben Tucker|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi james I like the idea of a small alloy boat, suggest that Raised decks like the yago make more sense than flush decks on a small boat and give an enormous feeling of space below, and some shelter to the cockpit. A decent footwell is very usefull, don't know how the pardeys manage without one, guess their mostly in the tropics. Too cold for that here (brents got the right idea, stay inside). By going alloy you can keep the boat small and light enough to be propelled by an outboard (or a big sweep) and save more money and room. This requires more of a backpacking aproach with minimal gear, the light boats motion can get abit vile but can be easily be put up with. Had no headroom on the folkboat for 5 years except under the dodger (absolutly essentail), and only an oar for 3 years. She was supposed to weigh in at around 2-2.5 tonnes but rekoned I pulled at least a 3/4 of a ton of gear off her when we shifted into our house, and she came up around 4-5 inches, If I was to go for a 26 footer again I would definatly go alloy but would get really carefull about every peice of gear going into and onto her. No heavy flemming Windvane a light Trimtab sytem, Minimal batterys, a small light camping cooker not a big heavy taylors cooker, a couple of small light solar panels rather than an airmarine Windgen, 3.5hp Outboard (doubles as dingy motor) and oars. I would also go for a rig that doesn't require lots of sails to be changed, living in a small boat is fine, Living in a small boat with wet sails is not(Reiger had a big cockpit locker for sails, but would be better as storage). And i'd also Make sure I had room on deck for at least a 6.5 foot dingy (preferably solid) Inflating and deflating an inflatible really reduces the desire to just stop off somewhere interesting and go ashore. Towing inflatables is ok in sheltered water (put spare water and fuel in the stern) athough mine nearly got cut up by the wind generator one day at anchor! But they MUST be bought on deck for any coastal passages. Id Keep the draught shallow, and go for full foam floatation. Look up John Letchers 'Aleutka' for this kind of concept. Any frills that you add takes away vital capacity. I had much fun in Reiger lived confortably aboard for years. The last owner sailed her halfway round the world and also loved her. Cheers Ben > Hi James - you are absolutely right, small boats make happy people! > Many very small boats have circumnavigated, and - given proper > serious design and construction - there is no problem to take a > small boat on big trips. It is more a question of comfort due to > lenght of boat with respect to wave motion & frequency, as well as > carrying ability. 26' seem to be about the lower limit for one, > maximum 2 on board, at least for my personal tastes in life. > > If you go small, go alloy - the weight advantage becomes more > important there - unless you have a very tight cash situation. > > Flush deck: unless you want to have very high topsides which I would > not recommend (weight & windage) your flush deck 26 would be a bit > low inside. You would need to see if you can find a working > compromise there. > > No cockpit: My last boat (10 m) had full-length uniterrupted flush > deck and only a small 25 cm deep well aft in place of the cockpit, > to have a place to hold the winch handle or the coffee cup, but you > could only sit there with your knees under your chin ;-) That gives > of course a awful lot of lot of volume inside, but it was wet and > uncomfortable all the time except when running in good weather. The > first thing my ex-wife did when I left was to add a coachroof to the > boat ;-) > > > Gerd > the YAGO PROJECT, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" > wrote: > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > > distant future. > > > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a > few > > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, > logs, > > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > > good for a novice sailor! > > > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of > the > > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy > give > > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum > at > > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception > for > > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > > this? > > > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed > that > > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial > vs "marine" > > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- > custom > > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is > a > > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I > can > > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 > to > > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design > out > > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). > The > > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > > > Well that's it for now. > > > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > Jim Douglas > > Vancouver, B.C. > > > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 > year > > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > > comfortable. | 4566|4484|2004-07-15 02:06:07|John Cupp|Re: Hello From A New Member|Courtney, The best bang for your buck is a Bow Roof Shed. Here is a website that gives you complete plans. http://www.by-the-sea.com/stimsonmarine/bowroof.html You can cover it with just plastic or do a Ferro-cement covering like me. If you use larger lumber as I am doing you can go 30' wide with a second story. It is very easy to build and I have had it signed off by an architect for my counties building dept. You made a good decision on the welder and welding isn't rocket science. It sounds like you have done very well with the truck and trailer. You can go any length with the building so you can also store the truck and trailer under your shop roof. If you go with plastic for covering it will help heat your shop in the winter but you'll need another layer of plastic on the inside so you have air space that will stop heat loss. The plans are very inexpensive and tell Dave Stimson when you call that I told you about them. He is the best shipwright I know of on the east coast. If you ever need to hire help for doing the deck or interior finish work or anything you may be able to hire him. I know he finished a very large schooner a while back and it was done to museum quality. I wish you very good luck with your project. I am going to study this type of building and I may build my Motorsailer using this technique. I have been using my AutoCAD program to look at some of the examples I have received. It looks doable by even a gimp like myself now. Luckily I have very good friends who help me with lifting. I also bought a special rubber tired cart that I can use for welding. It sits very low with an old tractor type seat so I do not have to get down on my knees. I found it at a big warehouse store called Costco. Anyone who has welded plate on the floor will know your knees take a beating. The cart is for gardening and it has baskets and shelves built onto it. A perfect welding cart for older welders like myself. If you can not find the cart make sure you get gel knee guards. You have to make sure that half way through you will still be able to keep going and not just going to visit the doctor. Just things I wish I had done when I was younger and considered myself a human crane. John Cupp| 4567|4567|2004-07-15 02:51:16|sae140|2205 stainless|Any stainless steel experts out there with experience of 2209 (used with 2205 duplex) ? Got 3 kilos dirt cheap with a bulk buy of 316L's from an offshore rig clear-out. Difficult to get definitive info on these rods - the story changes from site to site, but I understand that as well as welding 2205 duplex (their principle purpose) they can also be used for welding 2205 to mild and 2205 to 316 ... and in my logic, that implies they'll weld 316 to mild as well. If anyone knows different, I'd appreciate the tip-off. Colin| 4568|4531|2004-07-15 03:38:58|ben_azo|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi James , hi Ben ; some real small sailboats series made some circumnavigations , just think about the Flicka Bruce Bingham design that started as a ferro-cement boat design and became a welknown Pacific Seacraft serie glass production boat ; details easy to find via any search-engine . Or have a look at Puck: http://cruisenews.net/images/Puck/ and or http://fr.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/puckpascal Puck easely can be build in steel or better in aluminum and sure has much to offer for her size , see the comfortable interior with standing headroom and the side-daggerboars giving great upwind performance , see the German Yacht test report . Puck is a great trailerable offshore pocket cruiser. There is a Pilot-house motorboat and motorsailer version available for Puck , and I know some members seem to love traditional looking yachts with ultra-modern waterlines. If there is an interest I sure could post some pics for romantic sharpy-style dories allong the same ideas. How to turn a box into a fine sailing machine is the question! Go for something tested and improved on always !!! More modern is the slightly longer French 26 ft sailing around the world centerboarder I posted in the Files. Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > Hi james > > I like the idea of a small alloy boat, suggest that Raised decks like > the yago make more sense than flush decks on a small boat and give an > enormous feeling of space below, and some shelter to the cockpit. A > decent footwell is very usefull, don't know how the pardeys manage > without one, guess their mostly in the tropics. Too cold for that > here (brents got the right idea, stay inside). By going alloy you can > keep the boat small and light enough to be propelled by an outboard > (or a big sweep) and save more money and room. This requires more of > a backpacking aproach with minimal gear, the light boats motion can > get abit vile but can be easily be put up with. Had no headroom on > the folkboat for 5 years except under the dodger (absolutly > essentail), and only an oar for 3 years. She was supposed to weigh in > at around 2-2.5 tonnes but rekoned I pulled at least a 3/4 of a ton > of gear off her when we shifted into our house, and she came up > around 4-5 inches, > > If I was to go for a 26 footer again I would definatly go alloy but > would get really carefull about every peice of gear going into and > onto her. No heavy flemming Windvane a light Trimtab sytem, Minimal > batterys, a small light camping cooker not a big heavy taylors > cooker, a couple of small light solar panels rather than an airmarine > Windgen, 3.5hp Outboard (doubles as dingy motor) and oars. I would > also go for a rig that doesn't require lots of sails to be changed, > living in a small boat is fine, Living in a small boat with wet sails > is not(Reiger had a big cockpit locker for sails, but would be better > as storage). And i'd also Make sure I had room on deck for at least a > 6.5 foot dingy (preferably solid) Inflating and deflating an > inflatible really reduces the desire to just stop off somewhere > interesting and go ashore. Towing inflatables is ok in sheltered > water (put spare water and fuel in the stern) athough mine nearly got > cut up by the wind generator one day at anchor! But they MUST be > bought on deck for any coastal passages. Id Keep the draught shallow, > and go for full foam floatation. Look up John Letchers 'Aleutka' for > this kind of concept. Any frills that you add takes away vital > capacity. I had much fun in Reiger lived confortably aboard for > years. The last owner sailed her halfway round the world and also > loved her. > > Cheers > > Ben > > > > Hi James - you are absolutely right, small boats make happy people! > > Many very small boats have circumnavigated, and - given proper > > serious design and construction - there is no problem to take a > > small boat on big trips. It is more a question of comfort due to > > lenght of boat with respect to wave motion & frequency, as well as > > carrying ability. 26' seem to be about the lower limit for one, > > maximum 2 on board, at least for my personal tastes in life. > > > > If you go small, go alloy - the weight advantage becomes more > > important there - unless you have a very tight cash situation. > > > > Flush deck: unless you want to have very high topsides which I > would > > not recommend (weight & windage) your flush deck 26 would be a bit > > low inside. You would need to see if you can find a working > > compromise there. > > > > No cockpit: My last boat (10 m) had full-length uniterrupted flush > > deck and only a small 25 cm deep well aft in place of the cockpit, > > to have a place to hold the winch handle or the coffee cup, but you > > could only sit there with your knees under your chin ;-) That gives > > of course a awful lot of lot of volume inside, but it was wet and > > uncomfortable all the time except when running in good weather. The > > first thing my ex-wife did when I left was to add a coachroof to > the > > boat ;-) > > > > > > Gerd > > the YAGO PROJECT, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" > > wrote: > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > > > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of > interest > > > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not > too > > > distant future. > > > > > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > > > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > > > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a > > few > > > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > > > > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to > try > > > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > > > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > > > > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > > > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, > > logs, > > > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, > very > > > good for a novice sailor! > > > > > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of > > the > > > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy > > give > > > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > > > > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum > > at > > > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > > > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot > range? > > > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception > > for > > > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > > > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > > > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > > > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > > > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > > > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > > > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done > precisely > > > this? > > > > > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > > > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed > > that > > > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial > > vs "marine" > > > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > > > > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- > > custom > > > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this > is > > a > > > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > > > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > > > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > > > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and > lower > > > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I > > can > > > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 > > to > > > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design > > out > > > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > > > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). > > The > > > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > > > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > > > > > Well that's it for now. > > > > > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > > > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > > > Jim Douglas > > > Vancouver, B.C. > > > > > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 > > year > > > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > > > comfortable. | 4569|4522|2004-07-15 03:52:04|denis buggy|Re: Hull design|dear ben thanks for your reply I hope to build a cat with good sailing capability shorthanded using my own arrangement of rotating masts I.e. one in per hull set forward ,and each hull will be 50-60 ft long with a single 200mmx200mm box keel with a solid 200x40 length of flat welded under each keel . the box keel will be the heat exchanger for each 300 bhp engine in each hull and will have a very heavy wall thickness as will the framing for the boat which will be welded in each hull .however the boat is in 5 sections in order for it to make it to the launching site which is a container terminal and the crane used to offload the containers will pick up my assembled and bolted boat from the 4 bolted points which have been built into the design , the structural steel capable of taking the loads of a unstayed masts are not practible in the centre of the boat and must be moved to the centre area of each hull . the design is very simple in concept with a rear area with heads and showers and cooking and storage . a open centre area with bolted plated floor over fuel tanks and engines for removal and a forward living area in two sections as I cannot transport the full size on our roads . the ambition is to sail moderately well and to have sufficient power and range to take me out of trouble as I know next to nothing about sailing and wish only to use the craft as a holiday home for my family and friends . I have my own engineering facilities and the welding and bending of plate is not a challenge however the hull design eludes me even though I have bought mr gerrs books and mr calders and others . my next step is to tack together a few sheets of .06 galvanise 6ftx2.5hulls and seal the edges with silicone and determine my calculations at .1 scale and look at its behaviour in the water and modify it as best I can as it seems to be the only practical route to go . regards denis ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:56 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design Hi Denis , WOW what a question and comment list ; hard to see what you mean for an old man , post us a link or a pic of that South African Idea , so we can see what you mean . A steel motorsailor-catamaran ? I know of many steel catamarans where displacement is an advantage like for dredgers or trawling fishingboats . My definition of a fine motorsailor is a 100% fine sailboat , with a great range and a decent cruising speed under normal power . Hard to achieve with steel as building material for a motorsailor cat !!!! but it can be build for sure , as long as it is for a 12m +boat, but a catamaran motorsailor not sailing or motoring above hull speed ,why motorsail slow when you can go faster with less energy in the first place .Interesting topic?? not in my eyes , why should we even consider building such a boat ? Please , you tell me . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea of fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each hull on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area to investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from nasa I hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when visiting this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need another > investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea ?? > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised even > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming > out of an advisory office where politic connections count more > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Steve, > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily verified > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do you > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > You are > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect that > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys that > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and other > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that didn't > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or naval > architects. > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable local > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why not > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if you > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > are not!". > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > regardless > > of > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take you > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > degree, no > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > manage to > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you are > not! > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. Whether > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > makes > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they want? > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that the > fake label > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to those > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > hard work and > > > study! > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > degree. There > > are > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. Many > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > being > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a color > ink-jet, > > bought a > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end up > with an > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes muster > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English teachers. > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > architecture, a > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone can > call > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > yourself a naval > > > >>architect. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > calling > > > >> > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > architect, > > > >> > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with the > better > > > >> > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > >> > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and I > have worked > > > >> > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > >> > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > including Strength of > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > They > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only take > you 4 > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object to > you > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > Cheers > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4570|4522|2004-07-15 05:03:38|ben_azo|Re: Hull design|Dear Denis , WOW : what interesting projects and generous ideas : building your concept to entertain family and friends during the holiday saison . My only comment: consult a reputable maritime engineering company ,so they can streamline your fantastic ideas a bit and make you their best offer for a descent preliminary with some rendering , and project costs estimation. I am sure many people will be interested , Popular Mechanics just to name one , but they will show no interest before you come up with a publishable rendering ; and so am I . At some stage words have to be translated into design , by yourself , the engineering facility you own or even better and safer by experts with a proven record in that field . I am convinced the boating world is looking forward to see not only the plans but sure the esthetics and test-reports of your project , real innovations are always very interesting . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear ben thanks for your reply I hope to build a cat with good sailing capability shorthanded using my own arrangement of rotating masts I.e. one in per hull set forward ,and each hull will be 50-60 ft long with a single 200mmx200mm box keel with a solid 200x40 length of flat welded under each keel . the box keel will be the heat exchanger for each 300 bhp engine in each hull and will have a very heavy wall thickness as will the framing for the boat which will be welded in each hull .however the boat is in 5 sections in order for it to make it to the launching site which is a container terminal and the crane used to offload the containers will pick up my assembled and bolted boat from the 4 bolted points which have been built into the design , the structural steel capable of taking the loads of a unstayed masts are not practible in the centre of the boat and must be moved to the centre area of each hull . the design is very simple in concept with a rear area with heads and showers and cooking and storage . a open centre area with bolted plated floor over fuel tanks and engines for removal and a forward living area in two sections as I cannot transport the full size on our roads . the ambition is to sail moderately well and to have sufficient power and range to take me out of trouble as I know next to nothing about sailing and wish only to use the craft as a holiday home for my family and friends . I have my own engineering facilities and the welding and bending of plate is not a challenge however the hull design eludes me even though I have bought mr gerrs books and mr calders and others . my next step is to tack together a few sheets of .06 galvanise 6ftx2.5hulls and seal the edges with silicone and determine my calculations at .1 scale and look at its behaviour in the water and modify it as best I can as it seems to be the only practical route to go . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:56 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design > > > Hi Denis , WOW what a question and comment list ; > hard to see what you mean for an old man , post us a link or a > pic of that South African Idea , so we can see what you mean . > A steel motorsailor-catamaran ? I know of many steel > catamarans where displacement is an advantage like for > dredgers or trawling fishingboats . My definition of a fine > motorsailor is a 100% fine sailboat , with a great range and a > decent cruising speed under normal power . Hard to achieve > with steel as building material for a motorsailor cat !!!! > but it can be build for sure , as long as it is for a 12m +boat, > but a catamaran motorsailor not sailing or motoring above hull > speed ,why motorsail slow when you can go faster with less > energy in the first place .Interesting topic?? not in my eyes , > why should we even consider building such a boat ? > Please , you tell me . > Old uncle Ben > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea of > fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each hull > on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and > does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for > motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area to > investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from nasa I > hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like > myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when visiting > this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred > thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- > > From: ben_azo > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need > another > > investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if > > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea > ?? > > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised > even > > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming > > out of an advisory office where politic connections count more > > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . > > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Steve, > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > verified > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do > you > > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > > You are > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > that > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys > that > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and > other > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > didn't > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > naval > > architects. > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > local > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why > not > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if > you > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in > fact > > you > > > are not!". > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > regardless > > > of > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take > you > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > degree, no > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > > manage to > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are > > not! > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > Whether > > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > makes > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they > want? > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that > the > > fake label > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > those > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > > hard work and > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > > degree. There > > > are > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > Many > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > > being > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a > color > > ink-jet, > > > bought a > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end > up > > with an > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes > muster > > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English > teachers. > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > architecture, a > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone > can > > call > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > yourself a naval > > > > >>architect. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > > calling > > > > >> > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > architect, > > > > >> > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with > the > > better > > > > >> > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > >> > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and > I > > have worked > > > > >> > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > > including Strength of > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > > They > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only > take > > you 4 > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object > to > > you > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4571|4562|2004-07-15 08:26:31|Ben Tucker|Re: Do we need a keel or keels ?|hi Ben and gerd, These Bilgeboards look like a great idea, have seen them on racing scows, open 60's and the odd trailerable Ie redfox. are they more efficent than a centreboard? It seems they are more likely to hit floating objects, so how are they designed to absorb the shock? (I have a few mad ideas of my own about this!). I Enjoyed your photos. For my latest design (its only evolving slowly now so my ideas must be starting to come together) I am thinking along the lines of a very shallow stub keel (5 inches or so) just enough to stop her from needing the boards for most sailing except that last 20 degrees to windward and help with control in shallow stuff with the boards lifted and also to give me something to pivot on when i go aground. The bilgeboards also keep her upright when taking the ground, acting as adjustable legs. The whole bottom can be easily painted by slowly lifting a bilgeboard an letting her lay on the chine (with a car tyre under it). Does this plan sound reasonable, and are there any factors I have missed? How are the bilgeboards sited, from a balance point of view. I notice they often seem a fair way forward. Any hints as to the Lead. How much "Toe in" should they have, and should they be asymetrical How much does the windward board need to be lifted when short tacking. Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > sure not for endstability , just have a look at the 360° roll test pics > I just posted as latest new pics in Photos > so twinkeels can easely be replaced by two sideboards , less > drag and more performance upwind. > Old uncle Ben | 4572|4572|2004-07-15 08:41:31|audeojude|e-mail courtesy|Hey guys, I've made this post before many months ago but we have a lot of new members since then :) lol and a few old ones that have backslid into bad habbits. I am spending half my time reading the daily digests in scrolling thru old daily digests that someone replied to. It has gotten to the point that I have seen where one person replied to a email in a digest so that their email contained their reply to a specific email, the email they replied to and all the other emails for that day, and then someone replies to that reply out of another days digest and we get their reply plus two days digests. Just as a courtesy please when you reply to an email moniter the size of the prior emails that you are sending back with yours. If there is anything in it that isnt directly applicable to your reply how about deleting it. It just takes a couple seconds to highlight all the extraneous stuff and hit the delete key :) The average size of the origamiboats daily digest is starting to hit 100+K.. I have dsl so download speed isn't an issue with me (just reading speed :) ) but for those members that are using modems this is getting a bit large. I enjoy reading this list a lot, but if everyone could do this it would sure make reading it easier. Yours, Scott Carle aka Audeojude sv Comes Around, Goes Around| 4573|22|2004-07-15 09:05:53|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Traditionalflushdeck29ftint.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : fine cosy real sea-use interior You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Traditionalflushdeck29ftint.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4574|4433|2004-07-15 09:09:51|easysoftware98|Re: Hull strength|From a quick check the math is right. 2 x 4 x 144 x 200 X (2/.5) / 24 = 38400 On a 6" diamemter welded skeg the force will be divided, about 20,000 lbs per inch of weld per side. Keel bolts effectively halve the diameter, doubling the force back to approx 40,000. The skeg is not rectanguar in section, so the actual forces will be greater. The skeg is also not rectangular in profile, but after adding the rudder it is. The effective loading in the skin is approximately 20,000 / (3/16) approx 100,000 psi This is more than sufficient to shear the skeg. Either the wall thickness of the skeg must be increased, the size of the rudder and skeg reduced, the base of the skeg increased, or the 200 psi figure for water pressure must be examined. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > If I assume a skeg that is a box that is 24 inches long 6 inches wide and 4 > feet deep with a load of 200 lbs per square inch, I get a stress of 38,333 > lbs per inch of weld at the joint to the hull. And if the skeg is the same > except its now 12 inches wide I get 19,166 lps per inch for the stress. Now > take it too an extreme and make the skeg 24 inches wide my math says I get > 9,583 lbs per inch. When I resolve the force this way am I making a valid > analysis of the loading at the joint? I have never looked at the skeg before > but this is the method that I would use to calculate the size of keel bolts > that I need in a wood or fiberglass hull. With all of the talk on this site > I am now getting second thoughts on this. > Bob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 | 4575|4531|2004-07-15 09:30:30|Courtney Thomas|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Ben, Do you know where plans for an aluminum Puck can be had ? Thank you, Courtney ben_azo wrote: > Hi James , hi Ben ; some real small sailboats series made > some circumnavigations , just think about the Flicka > Bruce Bingham design that started as a ferro-cement boat > design and became a welknown Pacific Seacraft serie glass > production boat ; details easy to find via any search-engine . > Or have a look at Puck: http://cruisenews.net/images/Puck/ > and or http://fr.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/puckpascal > Puck easely can be build in steel or better in aluminum and > sure has much to offer for her size , see the comfortable > interior with standing headroom and the side-daggerboars > giving great upwind performance , see the German Yacht > test report . Puck is a great trailerable offshore pocket cruiser. > There is a Pilot-house motorboat and motorsailer version > available for Puck , and I know some members seem to > love traditional looking yachts with ultra-modern waterlines. > If there is an interest I sure could post some pics for > romantic sharpy-style dories allong the same ideas. > How to turn a box into a fine sailing machine is the question! > Go for something tested and improved on always !!! > More modern is the slightly longer French 26 ft sailing > around the world centerboarder I posted in the Files. > Old uncle Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" > wrote: > >>Hi james >> >>I like the idea of a small alloy boat, suggest that Raised decks >> > like > >>the yago make more sense than flush decks on a small boat >> > and give an > >>enormous feeling of space below, and some shelter to the >> > cockpit. A > >>decent footwell is very usefull, don't know how the pardeys >> > manage > >>without one, guess their mostly in the tropics. Too cold for that >>here (brents got the right idea, stay inside). By going alloy you >> > can > >>keep the boat small and light enough to be propelled by an >> > outboard > >>(or a big sweep) and save more money and room. This >> > requires more of > >>a backpacking aproach with minimal gear, the light boats >> > motion can > >>get abit vile but can be easily be put up with. Had no headroom >> > on > >>the folkboat for 5 years except under the dodger (absolutly >>essentail), and only an oar for 3 years. She was supposed to >> > weigh in > >>at around 2-2.5 tonnes but rekoned I pulled at least a 3/4 of a >> > ton > >>of gear off her when we shifted into our house, and she came >> > up > >>around 4-5 inches, >> >>If I was to go for a 26 footer again I would definatly go alloy but >>would get really carefull about every peice of gear going into >> > and > >>onto her. No heavy flemming Windvane a light Trimtab sytem, >> > Minimal > >>batterys, a small light camping cooker not a big heavy taylors >>cooker, a couple of small light solar panels rather than an >> > airmarine > >>Windgen, 3.5hp Outboard (doubles as dingy motor) and oars. I >> > would > >>also go for a rig that doesn't require lots of sails to be changed, >>living in a small boat is fine, Living in a small boat with wet >> > sails > >>is not(Reiger had a big cockpit locker for sails, but would be >> > better > >>as storage). And i'd also Make sure I had room on deck for at >> > least a > >>6.5 foot dingy (preferably solid) Inflating and deflating an >>inflatible really reduces the desire to just stop off somewhere >>interesting and go ashore. Towing inflatables is ok in >> > sheltered > >>water (put spare water and fuel in the stern) athough mine >> > nearly got > >>cut up by the wind generator one day at anchor! But they MUST >> > be > >>bought on deck for any coastal passages. Id Keep the draught >> > shallow, > >>and go for full foam floatation. Look up John Letchers 'Aleutka' >> > for > >>this kind of concept. Any frills that you add takes away vital >>capacity. I had much fun in Reiger lived confortably aboard for >>years. The last owner sailed her halfway round the world and >> > also > >>loved her. >> >>Cheers >> >>Ben >> >> >> >>>Hi James - you are absolutely right, small boats make happy >>> > people! > >>>Many very small boats have circumnavigated, and - given >>> > proper > >>>serious design and construction - there is no problem to take >>> > a > >>>small boat on big trips. It is more a question of comfort due >>> > to > >>>lenght of boat with respect to wave motion & frequency, as >>> > well as > >>>carrying ability. 26' seem to be about the lower limit for one, >>>maximum 2 on board, at least for my personal tastes in life. >>> >>>If you go small, go alloy - the weight advantage becomes >>> > more > >>>important there - unless you have a very tight cash situation. >>> >>>Flush deck: unless you want to have very high topsides >>> > which I > >>would >> >>>not recommend (weight & windage) your flush deck 26 would >>> > be a bit > >>>low inside. You would need to see if you can find a working >>>compromise there. >>> >>>No cockpit: My last boat (10 m) had full-length uniterrupted >>> > flush > >>>deck and only a small 25 cm deep well aft in place of the >>> > cockpit, > >>>to have a place to hold the winch handle or the coffee cup, >>> > but you > >>>could only sit there with your knees under your chin ;-) That >>> > gives > >>>of course a awful lot of lot of volume inside, but it was wet >>> > and > >>>uncomfortable all the time except when running in good >>> > weather. The > >>>first thing my ex-wife did when I left was to add a coachroof to >>> >>the >> >>>boat ;-) >>> >>> >>>Gerd >>>the YAGO PROJECT, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the >>>>background reading all of your posts with a great deal of >>>> >>interest >> >>>>as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the >>>> > not > >>too >> >>>>distant future. >>>> >>>>I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the >>>>practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around >>>> > the > >>>>world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and >>>> > quite a > >>>few >>> >>>>have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. >>>> >>>>A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to >>>> >>try >> >>>>to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to >>>> > accumulate > >>>>the necessary funds and time to build something larger. >>>> >>>>I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I >>>>could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, >>>> >>>logs, >>> >>>>corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, >>>> >>very >> >>>>good for a novice sailor! >>>> >>>>Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say >>>> > something of > >>>the >>> >>>>order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine >>>> > alloy > >>>give >>> >>>>me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? >>>> >>>>Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in >>>> > aluminum > >>>at >>> >>>>roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find >>>>any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot >>>> >>range? >> >>>>The fishing industry uses this material almost to the >>>> > exception > >>>for >>> >>>>smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power >>>>boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the >>>> > impression > >>>>that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to >>>> > the > >>>>group in terms of weight savings being translated into >>>> > increase > >>>>storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously >>>> > interested in > >>>>sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing >>>> > his > >>>>small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people >>>> > done > >>precisely >> >>>>this? >>>> >>>>Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest >>>> > in > >>>>orgami construction). Bought your book and am really >>>> > impressed > >>>that >>> >>>>so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial >>>> >>>vs "marine" >>> >>>>materials, plus tough as nails as per above. >>>> >>>>If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a >>>> > semi- > >>>custom >>> >>>>boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. >>>> > this > >>is >> >>>a >>> >>>>bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of >>>> > building > >>>>your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll >>>> > have no > >>>>cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush >>>> > deck. > >>>>Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot >>>> > and > >>lower >> >>>>boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I >>>> >>>can >>> >>>>fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for >>>> > the 3 > >>>to >>> >>>>5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the >>>> > design > >>>out >>> >>>>28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would >>>> > provide the > >>>>necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of >>>> > course). > >>>The >>> >>>>bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and >>>> > ongoing > >>>>invite for coffee all stay of course! >>>> >>>>Well that's it for now. >>>> >>>>Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! >>>> >>>>Yours sincerely, >>>> >>>>Jim Douglas >>>>Vancouver, B.C. >>>> >>>>The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to >>>> > 5 > >>>year >>> >>>>period and though she won't likely be large she has to be >>>>comfortable. >>>> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4576|4562|2004-07-15 10:08:12|ben_azo|Re: Do we need a keel or keels ?|Hi young Ben , cause I am old Ben , please go over post 4568 and go over the text and links again , cause I realy think the answer to some of your questions is already there . Post 4573 shows you a flushdeck sure can have a nice interior and sideboards are easely hidden, easely made easy of acces , the designs but also the pics of the finished and tested products can be seen in the German press articles , a shockabsorbing system is provided in all corectly designed boads for sure , and the sideboards are used sinds centuries on traditional craft all over the world , but also on transworld racing boats mono and/or multihull . Take your time to read the postings carefuly and revieuw all links with attention and all will become clearer. As with any profile , centerboard,sideboard , rudder and appendixes the designer has to choose the best performing profile for the job , so that differs for every boat. Enjoy the tour I ask you to take , fine to know you will discover some of the thousands of boards . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Tucker" wrote: > hi Ben and gerd, > > These Bilgeboards look like a great idea, have seen them on racing > scows, open 60's and the odd trailerable Ie redfox. are they more > efficent than a centreboard? It seems they are more likely to hit > floating objects, so how are they designed to absorb the shock? (I > have a few mad ideas of my own about this!). I Enjoyed your photos. > > For my latest design (its only evolving slowly now so my ideas must > be starting to come together) I am thinking along the lines of a very > shallow stub keel (5 inches or so) just enough to stop her from > needing the boards for most sailing except that last 20 degrees to > windward and help with control in shallow stuff with the boards > lifted and also to give me something to pivot on when i go aground. > The bilgeboards also keep her upright when taking the ground, acting > as adjustable legs. The whole bottom can be easily painted by slowly > lifting a bilgeboard an letting her lay on the chine (with a car tyre > under it). > > Does this plan sound reasonable, and are there any factors I have > missed? > > How are the bilgeboards sited, from a balance point of view. I notice > they often seem a fair way forward. Any hints as to the Lead. > > How much "Toe in" should they have, and should they be asymetrical > > How much does the windward board need to be lifted when short > tacking. > > Cheers > > Ben > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > sure not for endstability , just have a look at the 360° roll test > pics > > I just posted as latest new pics in Photos > > so twinkeels can easely be replaced by two sideboards , less > > drag and more performance upwind. > > Old uncle Ben | 4577|4577|2004-07-15 10:10:12|ben_azo|Puck Plans|From:  Courtney Thomas Date:  Thu Jul 15, 2004  4:42 pm Subject:  Re: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation Ben, Do you know where plans for an aluminum Puck can be had ? Thank you, Courtney Hi Courtney I will ask the designer , I meet him later today in the Pub. Quit a tough coockie he is , always drinking beer and chasing young exotic woman around the world. The guy is retired and today he gives his time free for fishing boat & other development projects in Africa . I realy think a small donation to one of those projects will cover the costs , even 100% patterns should be possible , he always give them to the yards. What Puck are you interested in ?? Are you a pro or an amateur with knowledge? See you later and Cheers Old uncle Ben ( we have the younger Ben in the Group to ;-)| 4578|4465|2004-07-15 11:02:16|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Skeg calculations|Force = Mass x Acceleration (or deceleration) The force on the skeg depends on the weight of the boat and the rate of deceleration, which can easily exceed the 1 G force of gravity. Deceleration loads of 20-100 G's are quite possible in collisions. There is a vast difference in the destructive force generated, depending on how fast a collision stops the boat. If you hit a big log with the skeg, and it stops the boat dead, rather than lifting the transom over, the force can easily exceed the weight of the boat by a large multiple. If you doubt this, lie down on a log and feel the force on your face. Now, lean out of a car window at 7MPH (6 knots) and let your face make direct contact with a telephone pole. (don't try this) It is quite possible that you will end up with broken face bones, missing teeth, and perhaps even a broken neck. Whether a skeg will shear or fold up in torsion was not the point of the calculation. It was to quickly calculate a worst case fore-and-aft framing required to match the strength of the skeg, without any detailed calculations. What I did was to choose the framing in such a way that it approximated the shape of the skeg. Then, because the strength varies as the square of the major axis (the direction in which the force is applied), we know: the number of frames = (effective skeg size)^2 / (effective frame size) ^2 (approximately) (Strength for similar shapes varies as the square of the thickness in the direction in which the force is applied, and linearly at right angles). This exercise can then be applied to side loading. Assuming that the size of skeg, and thickness had already been chosen, we would simply need to calculate the effective skeg strength for side loads, then select framing to match. However, as the strength of the skeg is weaker from the side than fore-and-aft, we can be fairly confident that if we braced the skeg for the worst case fore-and-aft, there would already be enough framing to take the side loads, as long as the geometry was correct. We would do the side load strength calculation to get a feel for how to orient the geometry of the framing inside the boat. The balance between transverse and longitudinal. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:40 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > The deeper the skeg the greater the leverage the bottom would have on > the base, and thus a deeper skeg would be more likely to be dammaged > in a given impact with the bottom.As the sides are in a direct > tension or compression, they would never tear, and the strength of > the attachment with the hull would be the greatest survival factor. > I once had a rock pass between my keels at hull speed and hit my > skeg directly , no dammage. I guess that means it's strong enough in > that direction. There is very little chance of a well atached skeg > sheering off a large amount of steel at 60,000PSI on a boat which > weighs far les than the total strength of the sheg. Side bending > loads are the real concern. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "easysoftware98" wrote: > > email problems are proving frustrating. > > > > In this case it didn't matter how deep the skeg was in the water. > We > > were going to sheer it off, so the only important thing would be > how > > much force it took to resist this. A deeper skeg would take less > > force at the bottom end to sheer off, but just as much at the top > to > > resist as a short skeg. > > > > g > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > wrote: > > > Greg, > > > > > > When you said: > > > > > > > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch > skin. > > > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than > > > just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I > > think) > > > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of > the > > > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > > > > > > > Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I > > > missed the third dimension? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4579|4572|2004-07-15 11:03:29|Gerd|Re: e-mail courtesy|Right, Scott, was time to mention that, but we all fell into bad habits. There is an old sort of convention on the net, saying that your quote should be shorter than your new original text. Gerd| 4580|4405|2004-07-15 14:36:50|aaron riis|Re: Any 26ft er's out there?|Hi, my name is Aaron, and I am building a 26, sorrry, I don't have any pics yet. The cabin is about five feet wide and every inch of headroom counts in this boat. I think I have five foot ten, but havent built the cabin sole or ceiling pannels yet. The 26 requires more creativity in a good layout, but in time I have come up with a good one Cheers, Aaron--- ben_azo wrote: > Small boats ofthen make the longest happyest voyages > and > have less maintenance , insurance and harborfees to > consider. > Just tell me what you realy would love to use the > boat for , and > in what climates , do you like a divided or open > layout , for > how many occupants , a 26ft can be great for a > couple and the > occasional guests , what experience in boatbuilding > do you > have and in what material , cause you could end up > cheaper > with a Kit to finish or refurbishing a good second > hand-boat. > Are you considering a folding mast , letting the > boat take the > sand or beach and what's the maximum draft you think > is fine > for you . Personaly I would never go on long voyages > without a > real interior steering position , even in the > tropics , who the hell > thinks its not safe and fine to have that ? So > please give us more > info and you will get a more specific and better > focused answer. > The sooner and completer your goal , the easyer for > anybody > in here to help with a solution and proposal, I sure > will. > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" > wrote: > > Hello everyone. > > > > Im just wondering if anyone in the forum has > access to any > interior > > pics of a 26ft swain? Im planning on a 26ft, ( I > wanted a 31ft but > a > > realistic review of my finaces dictate a 26ft > could actually be > > built, insted of a half completed 31ft. ) > > > > However, id really appreciate it if anyone owning > a 26ft could > > upload some photos, to get a realistic view of how > things > layout. > > > > As we all know numbers dont lie but how things > come together > are a > > different story. Im just not sure as too how much > smaller a 31ft > is > > compared to a 26ft for interior space. > > > > Once again if anyone can contribute to this cause > it would be > > greatly appreciated! > > > > Alex, I just thought id say you can also include > me on your list > > for a copy of your building process video. > > Its killing me right now, i just moved to Edmonton > AB. a month > after > > you started building, I really would have like to > pop in for a visit. > > > > Anyhow best of wishes to anyone building or > planning too. > > > > Jesse > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 4581|4581|2004-07-15 16:13:00|SHANE ROTHWELL|Small sailboat capable of circumnavigation|Hi Jim, might be a good idea to think about the material to build out of. aluminum is great stuff, light & comprably less maintainance. at the same time, cost is a lot more, there is no where near the volume of used aluminum at scrap dealers and welding of alum is also considerably more specialized. at the same time steel is cheap, there is lots of steel and stainless steel at scrap yards and welding of steel is available everywhere. alloy is geat stuff, but cheap it is not. and to engineer to match steel is yet another cost and consideration. if you are looking for bulletproof at a very reasonable cost, Brent Swain is the man. a 27' steelie is not too heavy but overly strong. You in Vancouver? When you planning on building? Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4582|4522|2004-07-15 20:13:38|denis buggy|Re: Hull design|dear ben to put my quest into one sentence it is your own words the "search for experts with a proven record in this field "many thanks for your reply .denis ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:03 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design Dear Denis , WOW : what interesting projects and generous ideas : building your concept to entertain family and friends during the holiday saison . My only comment: consult a reputable maritime engineering company ,so they can streamline your fantastic ideas a bit and make you their best offer for a descent preliminary with some rendering , and project costs estimation. I am sure many people will be interested , Popular Mechanics just to name one , but they will show no interest before you come up with a publishable rendering ; and so am I . At some stage words have to be translated into design , by yourself , the engineering facility you own or even better and safer by experts with a proven record in that field . I am convinced the boating world is looking forward to see not only the plans but sure the esthetics and test-reports of your project , real innovations are always very interesting . Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear ben thanks for your reply I hope to build a cat with good sailing capability shorthanded using my own arrangement of rotating masts I.e. one in per hull set forward ,and each hull will be 50-60 ft long with a single 200mmx200mm box keel with a solid 200x40 length of flat welded under each keel . the box keel will be the heat exchanger for each 300 bhp engine in each hull and will have a very heavy wall thickness as will the framing for the boat which will be welded in each hull .however the boat is in 5 sections in order for it to make it to the launching site which is a container terminal and the crane used to offload the containers will pick up my assembled and bolted boat from the 4 bolted points which have been built into the design , the structural steel capable of taking the loads of a unstayed masts are not practible in the centre of the boat and must be moved to the centre area of each hull . the design is very simple in concept with a rear area with heads and showers and cooking and storage . a open centre area with bolted plated floor over fuel tanks and engines for removal and a forward living area in two sections as I cannot transport the full size on our roads . the ambition is to sail moderately well and to have sufficient power and range to take me out of trouble as I know next to nothing about sailing and wish only to use the craft as a holiday home for my family and friends . I have my own engineering facilities and the welding and bending of plate is not a challenge however the hull design eludes me even though I have bought mr gerrs books and mr calders and others . my next step is to tack together a few sheets of .06 galvanise 6ftx2.5hulls and seal the edges with silicone and determine my calculations at .1 scale and look at its behaviour in the water and modify it as best I can as it seems to be the only practical route to go . regards denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:56 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design > > > Hi Denis , WOW what a question and comment list ; > hard to see what you mean for an old man , post us a link or a > pic of that South African Idea , so we can see what you mean . > A steel motorsailor-catamaran ? I know of many steel > catamarans where displacement is an advantage like for > dredgers or trawling fishingboats . My definition of a fine > motorsailor is a 100% fine sailboat , with a great range and a > decent cruising speed under normal power . Hard to achieve > with steel as building material for a motorsailor cat !!!! > but it can be build for sure , as long as it is for a 12m +boat, > but a catamaran motorsailor not sailing or motoring above hull > speed ,why motorsail slow when you can go faster with less > energy in the first place .Interesting topic?? not in my eyes , > why should we even consider building such a boat ? > Please , you tell me . > Old uncle Ben > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea of > fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each hull > on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and > does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for > motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area to > investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from nasa I > hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like > myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when visiting > this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred > thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- > > From: ben_azo > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need > another > > investigation team , special agents going undercover to see if > > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary idea > ?? > > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised > even > > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy coming > > out of an advisory office where politic connections count more > > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit . > > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > Steve, > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > verified > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do > you > > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an engineer. > > You are > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > that > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys > that > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and > other > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > didn't > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > naval > > architects. > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never told > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > local > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at least > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. Why > not > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem if > you > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when in > fact > > you > > > are not!". > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > To: > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC that > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > regardless > > > of > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and take > you > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > degree, no > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if you > > manage to > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact you > are > > not! > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > Whether > > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is what > > > makes > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they > want? > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that > the > > fake label > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > those > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly thru > > hard work and > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were finding > > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > > degree. There > > > are > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > Many > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, and > > being > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a > color > > ink-jet, > > > bought a > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you end > up > > with an > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes > muster > > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English > teachers. > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > To: > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > architecture, a > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about 11 > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. Anyone > can > > call > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > yourself a naval > > > > >>architect. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is like > > calling > > > > >> > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > architect, > > > > >> > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with > the > > better > > > > >> > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > >> > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), and > I > > have worked > > > > >> > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > > including Strength of > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the field. > > They > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will only > take > > you 4 > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will object > to > > you > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4583|4433|2004-07-15 20:24:34|Henri Naths|Re: Hull strength|Hi Greg, I'm trying to get up to speed with the terminology of shipwrighting/naval architect/yacht designing/etc.etc. Are you talking about tensile strength of a weld? .60,000 psi metal will take about 60,000 pounds of tensile force per one sq. inch of solid metal area. Therefore a 1/8' welding rod of 60,000 psi rating,- is good for 1/8th of 60,000 psi or 7,500 pounds of tensile strength for every linear inch if the weld is perfect. Or 11,250 pound of tensile strength per inch for welding 3/16 th plate with a 3/16 th fillet weld.That is assuming the weld legs of the weld and the effective throat is uniform and 3/16 th thru out or a perfect weld. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: easysoftware98 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 15 July, 2004 7:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength From a quick check the math is right. 2 x 4 x 144 x 200 X (2/.5) / 24 = 38400 On a 6" diamemter welded skeg the force will be divided, about 20,000 lbs per inch of weld per side. Keel bolts effectively halve the diameter, doubling the force back to approx 40,000. The skeg is not rectanguar in section, so the actual forces will be greater. The skeg is also not rectangular in profile, but after adding the rudder it is. The effective loading in the skin is approximately 20,000 / (3/16) approx 100,000 psi This is more than sufficient to shear the skeg. Either the wall thickness of the skeg must be increased, the size of the rudder and skeg reduced, the base of the skeg increased, or the 200 psi figure for water pressure must be examined. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > If I assume a skeg that is a box that is 24 inches long 6 inches wide and 4 > feet deep with a load of 200 lbs per square inch, I get a stress of 38,333 > lbs per inch of weld at the joint to the hull. And if the skeg is the same > except its now 12 inches wide I get 19,166 lps per inch for the stress. Now > take it too an extreme and make the skeg 24 inches wide my math says I get > 9,583 lbs per inch. When I resolve the force this way am I making a valid > analysis of the loading at the joint? I have never looked at the skeg before > but this is the method that I would use to calculate the size of keel bolts > that I need in a wood or fiberglass hull. With all of the talk on this site > I am now getting second thoughts on this. > Bob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4584|4433|2004-07-15 21:15:08|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Hull strength|Hi Henri, No worries. I'm find myself having to think twice and write once. Liked your thoughts on inspections. I was talking about the load in the skin that would result given the assumptions presented. Robert's numbers (38,333) looked right to me for keel bolts. They just needed to be halved for welded, because the effective width of the attachment is doubled. (assuming the bolts run on the centerline). 1/2 of 38,333 is approx 20,000. The approx 20,000 per inch is somewhat greater than your 11,250 tensile per inch of 3/16, which did not look good to me. The skeg would need to be beefed up - with some calculations could add internal transverse members and likely get enough strength, so long as the whole works was slotted through the hull. The USN manual I posted the other day had an interesting table on material strength (table 4.1) http://wetlands.simplyaquatics.com/manuals/USN/Salvage-Manual/VOL1/CHAP4.PDF Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength Hi Greg, I'm trying to get up to speed with the terminology of shipwrighting/naval architect/yacht designing/etc.etc. Are you talking about tensile strength of a weld? .60,000 psi metal will take about 60,000 pounds of tensile force per one sq. inch of solid metal area. Therefore a 1/8' welding rod of 60,000 psi rating,- is good for 1/8th of 60,000 psi or 7,500 pounds of tensile strength for every linear inch if the weld is perfect. Or 11,250 pound of tensile strength per inch for welding 3/16 th plate with a 3/16 th fillet weld.That is assuming the weld legs of the weld and the effective throat is uniform and 3/16 th thru out or a perfect weld. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: easysoftware98 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 15 July, 2004 7:09 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength From a quick check the math is right. 2 x 4 x 144 x 200 X (2/.5) / 24 = 38400 On a 6" diamemter welded skeg the force will be divided, about 20,000 lbs per inch of weld per side. Keel bolts effectively halve the diameter, doubling the force back to approx 40,000. The skeg is not rectanguar in section, so the actual forces will be greater. The skeg is also not rectangular in profile, but after adding the rudder it is. The effective loading in the skin is approximately 20,000 / (3/16) approx 100,000 psi This is more than sufficient to shear the skeg. Either the wall thickness of the skeg must be increased, the size of the rudder and skeg reduced, the base of the skeg increased, or the 200 psi figure for water pressure must be examined. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > If I assume a skeg that is a box that is 24 inches long 6 inches wide and 4 > feet deep with a load of 200 lbs per square inch, I get a stress of 38,333 > lbs per inch of weld at the joint to the hull. And if the skeg is the same > except its now 12 inches wide I get 19,166 lps per inch for the stress. Now > take it too an extreme and make the skeg 24 inches wide my math says I get > 9,583 lbs per inch. When I resolve the force this way am I making a valid > analysis of the loading at the joint? I have never looked at the skeg before > but this is the method that I would use to calculate the size of keel bolts > that I need in a wood or fiberglass hull. With all of the talk on this site > I am now getting second thoughts on this. > Bob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 4585|4531|2004-07-15 22:06:14|Michael Casling|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|I have been out on many diesel only powered vessels, and in some nasty weather. I am currently working on my diesel powered 18 foot aluminum fishing boat. It is possible for the diesel to quit and it is possible to lose the rig or rudder on a sailboat. But the sailboat has both the rig and the diesel. And my fishing boat will have the diesel and a small outboard. I would suggest to anyone planning a diesel only powered vessell to spend a night sleeping near the diesel while it is running. Then try the same thing on a sailboat under sail, knowing the diesel is there if you need it. With the sailboat you only need to take enough fuel for half the distance as the sails will always get you at least half way from either your departure or destination point. That is still 55 gallons of fuel. If you are confident of being able to hook up a jury rig you may go with half of that and if you really trust your rig you will take even less. Also some people just do not like burning fuel all the time. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation This is no more likely then a turnbuckle failing causing the loss of the mast, lost one once luckily the air was light and we were less then a mile from the marina, or we would have lost the stick. I have owned 6 sail boats over the years. The first one was given me by my father for my birthday 52 years ago. The last one was a 30' slope. I have sailed the great lakes for more then 20 years, and have found that I spent most of the time under power. If you keep diesel fuel clean you are more likely to suffer some other disaster then have your engine quit. One 40' Passagemaker just completed a circumnavigation, and there is a rally crossing the Atlantic. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Mike [mailto:intiaboats@...] Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:46 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation But, what if the engine quits, halfway between San Fransisco & Hawaii? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > "Passagemaker" noun; a powerboat capable of crossing oceans. > > Coined by Captain Robert P. Beebe around 1958. > > Yup it only carries 119 gal of diesel. But can travel in excess of 3000 nm. > It doesn't slowing down in light air or needing to skirt the Pacific or > Atlantic high, thus saving several hundred miles and days. The cost of fuel > is about the same or less as the repairs to sails, standing and running > rigging. > > Once along shore most sailboats power most of the time anyway, so why carry > all that ballast and try to maintain all that expensive rigging. > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Casling [mailto:casling@s...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:22 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > I am assuming you are going through the Panama Canal. That is about the fuel > consuption of our 28 foot sailboat. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David K McComber > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 9:37 AM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > I wonder why every one thinks that it takes a sailboat to do a > Circumnavigation. > > In the fall 1999 issue of Passagemaker magazine there is a 20' aluminum > Passagemaker capable of making a circumnavigation. > > It only takes a range of 2222 nm which gives ample reserve to make the > longest crossing necessary (Honolulu to San Francisco) to make a > circumnavigation > > Pazaps > > A 20' Passagemaker > > > > Aluminum hull, powered by a 18 hp Yanmar diesel. > > She cruses at 5 knots with a top speed of 7.1 knots. > > Range in average conditions 3,214 nm. > > 450 liters of fuel. > > 150 liters of water. > > > > e-mail loftsman@u... > > > > Passagemaker Fall 1999 VOL. 4 NO. 3 > > > > David McComber > > d.mccomber@c... > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Douglas [mailto:conceptconversion@t...] > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:17 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > > > > Hi I am also new to the group but hasve been lurking in the > background reading all of your posts with a great deal of interest > as I hope to build an orgami steel or aluminum boat in the not too > distant future. > > I am green as all get out when it comes to welding or the > practicalities one must prepare for in sailing a boat around the > world. But, hey, others have risen to the challenge and quite a few > have done it in smaller blue water capable boats. > > A lot in the cruising literature suggests that it is better to try > to get away cruising on a smaller boat than waiting to accumulate > the necessary funds and time to build something larger. > > I like the tough as nails notion of steel. In particular, that I > could ram or be hit by virtually anything...steel containers, logs, > corral, reefs, etc... and come away unscathed...This is very, very > good for a novice sailor! > > Question for Greg Elliot: could a lighter boat, say something of the > order of 26 - 28 feet, be constructed of aluminum marine alloy give > me approximately the same sort of assurance as steel? > > Second, given that equal strengths can be engineered in aluminum at > roughly half the weight of steel why is it that I can hardly find > any evidence of any aluminum sailboats in the 20 to 30 foot range? > The fishing industry uses this material almost to the exception for > smaller boat construction i.e. herring skiffs & small power > boats...most are just butt ugly but still gives me the impression > that it's as tough as nails too! Given what you have said to the > group in terms of weight savings being translated into increase > storage capacity why wouldn't someone seriously interested in > sailing the world over not be very interested in constructing his > small boat out of aluminum? Why haven't more people done precisely > this? > > Questions for Brent (he's responsible for my initial interest in > orgami construction). Bought your book and am really impressed that > so much of a boat's features can be built for industrial vs "marine" > materials, plus tough as nails as per above. > > If I bought your plans but nonetheless wanted to build a semi- custom > boat based on your design would you still assist me? O.K. this is a > bit of heresy but stay with me please! I'm thinking of building > your 26 footer but would modify the design so that she'll have no > cock pit or foot well and I'd prefer that she have a flush deck. > Your book does not give any proposed layouts for 35 foot and lower > boats but I think if I eliminate the cock pit I am quire sure I can > fit in the necessary creature comforts to keep me happy for the 3 to > 5 years it will take. Of course being able to stretch the design out > 28 feet would also help. I am hoping that you would provide the > necessary design assistance to accomplish this (paid of course). The > bilge keels, water maker, self steering, fireplace and ongoing > invite for coffee all stay of course! > > Well that's it for now. > > Hope there's a crab in everyones trap!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Jim Douglas > Vancouver, B.C. > > The boat I utimately build is going to be my home for a 3 to 5 year > period and though she won't likely be large she has to be > comfortable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089879473/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002> > > > > g> > > > > > :HM/A=2181364/rand=605209783> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > -- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > oups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1089923287/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=130 4ck1na/ > *http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0 > 002_0015_0178_0002%20> > > > g> > > > > :HM/A=2196952/rand=322205453> > > > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4586|4433|2004-07-15 22:27:25|Michael Casling|Re: Hull strength|All this talk has got me thinking about skegs and also how the keels stay on. I am guessing that a lead fin keel of about 4000 pounds is 12 inches wide at the top. They are held on with a bunch of bolts to wooden boats and they stay there for many years and even hit things, sometimes causing damage. Now I am thinking that the stresses on a skeg should be a lot less than the stress on a keel. The skeg does not really do anything. A transom hung rudder would have more stress. I can see the stress if the skeg hit something but usually the keel hits the object. If the skegs are so problematic then leave them off. Keep a spare rudder on board with mounting attachments. So far the skeg problems have been described as: one boat on the beach which may or may not have had damage depending on the source, a steel boat lost at sea for an unknown reason, another boat taking on a lot of water around the skeg attachment point but no explanation about what happened. Based on this information we are going to undertake an entire review of all skegs at sea. What about building a waterproof housing around the skeg on the inside so if the skeg gets ripped off by a giant squid the boat will not sink. Also it might be easier to make the skeg sacrifice itself when hit rather than building the joint like a tank. Michael with a skeg less boat although I really like the idea of using one to cool the engine. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Gainer" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:20 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > If I assume a skeg that is a box that is 24 inches long 6 inches wide and 4 > feet deep with a load of 200 lbs per square inch, I get a stress of 38,333 > lbs per inch of weld at the joint to the hull. And if the skeg is the same > except its now 12 inches wide I get 19,166 lps per inch for the stress. Now > take it too an extreme and make the skeg 24 inches wide my math says I get > 9,583 lbs per inch. When I resolve the force this way am I making a valid > analysis of the loading at the joint? I have never looked at the skeg before > but this is the method that I would use to calculate the size of keel bolts > that I need in a wood or fiberglass hull. With all of the talk on this site > I am now getting second thoughts on this. > Bob > > _________________________________________________________________ > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4587|4562|2004-07-15 22:57:13|Ben Tucker|Re: Do we need a keel or keels ?|Hi Old Ben, Had another look at the links, Any chance of Emailing larger images of Puck7 and Puck8? Also any of the german stuff that relates to the bilge boards (I have a friend who is german, She can translate). The linked photos were just to small to read properly (unless Im a moron and can't get them any bigger than 200x400 size?) I also Like the sound of the Sharpies you mentioned. Cheers Young Ben| 4588|4531|2004-07-15 23:49:44|David K McComber|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|It is possible for the diesel to quit and it is possible to lose the rig or rudder on a sailboat. But the sailboat has both the rig and the diesel. I have done a circumnavigation aboard two single engine ships, half way each. Most freighters have only one engine and don't seem to have much problem with there engines quitting. About the only thing that can cause a diesel to quit is lack of fuel, either to dirty or a shot fuel pump. Both can be easily prevented or corrected. On the other hand a modern sail rig has a grate number of unduplicated bearings (gooseneck, shaves, sail slugs and travelers) A broken stay can cause the mast to go over the side where it becomes a giant javelin trying to punch a hole in your hull. * I would suggest to anyone planning a diesel only powered vessell to spend a night sleeping near the diesel while it is running. Most people sound proof there engine room. If this is done correctly the engine is no more noisy then the wind in the sails or the water on the hull. From: David K McComber To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:20 PM Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4589|4589|2004-07-16 04:01:30|Gerd|wild thing|as the idea of the steel cat pops up from time to time, here is a link to a really big one, being build in Germany: http://www.der- katamaran.com/, 20 meters by 13, flettner rotor and a lot of other wild stuff good for lengthy discussions ;-) Enjoy Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4592|4592|2004-07-16 06:07:45|Gerd|Re: Human Rights And Justice In Islam|Robert, no need to reply, they don't even READ the forums they are posting in - just ignore Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > beliefs and it is NOT OK TO HIJACK THIS FORUM AS YOU PERSONAL PLATFORM TO > DISSEMINATE SUCH JUNK. > Robert Gainer | 4593|4592|2004-07-16 06:55:41|Robert Gainer|Re: Human Rights And Justice In Islam|Gerd; I have never replied to a post in such an intemperate way, of course that was just spam. It is the same as a solicitation to get a new mortgage or buy into a weight loss plan. My answer to it will not change their opinion or in any way advance my own agenda. I think this is what�s known as getting up on the wrong side of the bunk. Now that I am in the office its time to get back to more pleasant things. Today I am finishing the construction plan for an 18� Shad boat that a museum is building as part of a youth program. Everything to do with the boat business is great. People come to the boatyard to have a good time, they don�t come to argue or give you a hard time. They come to build things, create things or use the boats; one of the few things that man has created that has a sole and a personality. I think it�s the best way to spend your time unless you are out cruising. Have a good day; Bob >From: "Gerd" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Human Rights And Justice In Islam >Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:07:42 -0000 > >Robert, no need to reply, they don't even READ the forums they are >posting in - just ignore >Gerd > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" > wrote: > > > beliefs and it is NOT OK TO HIJACK THIS FORUM AS YOU PERSONAL >PLATFORM TO > > DISSEMINATE SUCH JUNK. > > Robert Gainer > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee� Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963| 4594|4594|2004-07-16 08:23:46|Scott Carle|Islam spam|sigh its like clockwork getting this religious stuff on here. Is there any way to filter any message that contains islam in it so it just doesnt get thru? and for the record I would be urging this for any other religion or subject that was becoming such an off topic anoyance over a long period of time. Scott Carle aka Audeojude sv comes around, goes around __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com| 4595|4594|2004-07-16 09:32:01|Gerd|Re: Islam spam|Friends, please ignore this nonsense and do not reply or comment at all, it's the only way. If not there will be more web-searches showing more postings containing those keywords in this group's messages which will attact more spam and so on and so on. It's like sending angry "stop that" messages back to spammers, that will only get you on more spam lists until you have to change your mail adress and start over... Until now we do really not get a lot of that, in spite of having quite an aftive group. If we want to keep it like that, the only thing to do is to IGNORE completely to keep damage to a minimum. Gerd We have--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote:... Is there any way to filter any message that contains islam in it so it just doesnt get thru?| 4596|4465|2004-07-16 10:10:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Skeg calculations|This was done on the JM50, as per the pictures Steve posted to Greg's skeg. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "brentswain38" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > Those high aspect ratio skegs often have a prop in front of them. > Running a 2 inch sch 40 pipe from below the prop horizontally to the > hull and fairing in the area ahead of the prop, with plate, taken to > a point at the front of the resulting aperture will add a tremendous > amount of additional strength, especially with a frontal impact with > a log, while giving additional downwind control, without affecting > the balance under sail in any significant way.Making the plate > fairing wider at the top will add considerable lateral strength, > especially if it is tied into internal transverse webs with gussets > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > wrote: > > Greg, > > > > When you said: > > > > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch skin. > > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than > > just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I > think) > > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of the > > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > > > > Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I > > missed the third dimension? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4597|4581|2004-07-16 10:10:14|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Small sailboat capable of circumnavigation|There is nothing bulletproof about a metal boat with the skeg and keel weaker than the rest of the boat. It is simply a false sense of security. As Mungo showed, when the appendages are attached weaker than the rest of the boat they age faster. Thus, Mungo survived the first grounding intact, but the skeg failed rapidly during the second grounding. This should not happen in a metal boat. Everyone on this site is involved in metal boats because they can be built to be virtually indestructible. In metal, the appendages can be built as strong as the rest of the hull with a trivial amount of work and cost. Given how simple it is to do, why would anyone want to build a metal boat in which the skeg and keel are the weakest point? What BENEFIT is there in making the skeg and keel weak points? Please, no excuses why, no anecdotes that can't measure metal fatigue, simply what is the benefit? How does it help the boat to build the keel and skeg weaker than the rest of the boat? Are you trying to make the boat faster? More reliable? Or simply save a few bucks during the construction? Brent, I note you have not acknolowledged the miscalculation of the strength of correction to Mungo's skeg, and the implications for skeg and keel attachment strengths. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:12 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Small sailboat capable of circumnavigation > Hi Jim, > > might be a good idea to think about the material to > build out of. aluminum is great stuff, light & > comprably less maintainance. > > at the same time, cost is a lot more, there is no > where near the volume of used aluminum at scrap > dealers and welding of alum is also considerably more > specialized. > > at the same time steel is cheap, there is lots of > steel and stainless steel at scrap yards and welding > of steel is available everywhere. > > alloy is geat stuff, but cheap it is not. and to > engineer to match steel is yet another cost and > consideration. if you are looking for bulletproof at a > very reasonable cost, Brent Swain is the man. > > a 27' steelie is not too heavy but overly strong. > > You in Vancouver? When you planning on building? > > Shane > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4598|4598|2004-07-16 13:54:30|Gerd|simple 2D CAD?|Hi all I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. Any recommendations ? Gerd| 4599|4599|2004-07-16 14:06:49|..|Home built Plasma cutter|Hi Courtney, I would also like the link for the home built plasma site. Geoff --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 04/06/2004| 4600|4600|2004-07-16 14:31:37|edward_stoneuk|Greg's skegs|Greg, As I understand it you did not design the skegs on the JM50 otherwise designed by you. Do you usually get others to design them or is it your only boat that has had skegs fitted? Regards, Ted| 4601|4600|2004-07-16 15:08:04|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg's skegs|Hi Ted, We are happy to design the boats to whatever level someone wants. Usually the hull patterns are where people have problems, but the rest of the boat is pretty standard, so you can do that part yourself if you wish to save $$. Ken is a very experienced builder. I believe he drew the patterns for the original BS40. The JM50 is basically just a different set of patterns, built with the same techniques as a Brent. Nothing would prevent anyone from doing much the same. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "edward_stoneuk" To: Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:31 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Greg's skegs > Greg, > > As I understand it you did not design the skegs on the JM50 > otherwise designed by you. Do you usually get others to design > them or is it your only boat that has had skegs fitted? > > Regards, > > Ted > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > | 4602|4465|2004-07-16 15:18:53|brentswain38|Re: Skeg calculations|One sees a lot of high aspect skegs which could easily have a bit of meat added in the form of a gusset in front of them with no adverse effects. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Force = Mass x Acceleration (or deceleration) > > The force on the skeg depends on the weight of the boat and the rate of deceleration, which can easily exceed the 1 G force of > gravity. Deceleration loads of 20-100 G's are quite possible in collisions. There is a vast difference in the destructive force > generated, depending on how fast a collision stops the boat. If you hit a big log with the skeg, and it stops the boat dead, rather > than lifting the transom over, the force can easily exceed the weight of the boat by a large multiple. > > If you doubt this, lie down on a log and feel the force on your face. Now, lean out of a car window at 7MPH (6 knots) and let your > face make direct contact with a telephone pole. (don't try this) It is quite possible that you will end up with broken face bones, > missing teeth, and perhaps even a broken neck. > > Whether a skeg will shear or fold up in torsion was not the point of the calculation. It was to quickly calculate a worst case > fore-and-aft framing required to match the strength of the skeg, without any detailed calculations. > > What I did was to choose the framing in such a way that it approximated the shape of the skeg. Then, because the strength varies as > the square of the major axis (the direction in which the force is applied), we know: > > the number of frames = (effective skeg size)^2 / (effective frame size) ^2 (approximately) > > (Strength for similar shapes varies as the square of the thickness in the direction in which the force is applied, and linearly at > right angles). > > This exercise can then be applied to side loading. Assuming that the size of skeg, and thickness had already been chosen, we would > simply need to calculate the effective skeg strength for side loads, then select framing to match. However, as the strength of the > skeg is weaker from the side than fore-and-aft, we can be fairly confident that if we braced the skeg for the worst case > fore-and-aft, there would already be enough framing to take the side loads, as long as the geometry was correct. We would do the > side load strength calculation to get a feel for how to orient the geometry of the framing inside the boat. The balance between > transverse and longitudinal. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brentswain38" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:40 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Skeg calculations > > > > The deeper the skeg the greater the leverage the bottom would have on > > the base, and thus a deeper skeg would be more likely to be dammaged > > in a given impact with the bottom.As the sides are in a direct > > tension or compression, they would never tear, and the strength of > > the attachment with the hull would be the greatest survival factor. > > I once had a rock pass between my keels at hull speed and hit my > > skeg directly , no dammage. I guess that means it's strong enough in > > that direction. There is very little chance of a well atached skeg > > sheering off a large amount of steel at 60,000PSI on a boat which > > weighs far les than the total strength of the sheg. Side bending > > loads are the real concern. > > Brent Swain > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "easysoftware98" wrote: > > > email problems are proving frustrating. > > > > > > In this case it didn't matter how deep the skeg was in the water. > > We > > > were going to sheer it off, so the only important thing would be > > how > > > much force it took to resist this. A deeper skeg would take less > > > force at the bottom end to sheer off, but just as much at the top > > to > > > resist as a short skeg. > > > > > > g > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "edward_stoneuk" > > > > > wrote: > > > > Greg, > > > > > > > > When you said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Consider a skeg say 2 feet by 4 inches, with 3/16 inch > > skin. > > > > Lets assume that the strength of the skeg is from the skin alone, > > > > > that you are not relying on the internal bracing for more than > > > > just keeping the skin together. The strength of the skeg is > > > > > dependent on the direction of the force. The worst case (I > > > think) > > > > would be a log strike or similar, because the skeg typically is > > > > > strongest fore and aft. It is going to try and rotate out of > > the > > > > hull, and will do its best to take a piece of the hull with it (if > > > > > only the small area the skeg is welded to). > > > > > > > > > > > > Were you meaning a 3/16" plate skeg 2' deep x 4" long or have I > > > > missed the third dimension? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4603|4598|2004-07-16 15:20:53|David K McComber|Re: simple 2D CAD?|Hi Gerd Why not just use Rhino, rather then having to learn a new program? If you feel you need more 2D tools you can always use Lino Printing, drafting & illustration (Plug-In) I have Visual CADD but I don't even have it currently installed. When Rhino 4 comes out it is suppose to have better 2D tools. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Gerd [mailto:gerd@...] Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 1:53 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] simple 2D CAD? Hi all I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. Any recommendations ? Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4604|4522|2004-07-16 15:23:24|brentswain38|Re: Hull design|This discussion reminds me of an interview between CBC's Barbera Fromme and an Argintinian during the Falklands war.Fromme said " It didn't make much common sense for Argentina to invade the Falklands at this time." The Argentinian said "My friend, as I'm sure you will understand, what you call common sense is the least common of all the senses." Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear ben to put my quest into one sentence it is your own words the "search for experts with a proven record in this field "many thanks for your reply .denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:03 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design > > > Dear Denis , WOW : what interesting projects and generous > ideas : building your concept to entertain family and friends > during the holiday saison . > My only comment: consult a reputable maritime engineering > company ,so they can streamline your fantastic ideas a bit and > make you their best offer for a descent preliminary with > some rendering , and project costs estimation. > I am sure many people will be interested , Popular Mechanics > just to name one , but they will show no interest before you > come up with a publishable rendering ; and so am I . > At some stage words have to be translated into design , by > yourself , the engineering facility you own or even better and > safer by experts with a proven record in that field . > I am convinced the boating world is looking forward to see > not only the plans but sure the esthetics and test-reports > of your project , real innovations are always very interesting . > Old uncle Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > dear ben thanks for your reply I hope to build a cat with good > sailing capability shorthanded using my own arrangement of > rotating masts I.e. one in per hull set forward ,and each hull will > be 50-60 ft long with a single 200mmx200mm box keel with a > solid 200x40 length of flat welded under each keel . the box keel > will be the heat exchanger for each 300 bhp engine in each hull > and will have a very heavy wall thickness as will the framing for > the boat which will be welded in each hull .however the boat is in > 5 sections in order for it to make it to the launching site which is > a container terminal and the crane used to offload the containers > will pick up my assembled and bolted boat from the 4 bolted > points which have been built into the design , the structural steel > capable of taking the loads of a unstayed masts are not > practible in the centre of the boat and must be moved to the > centre area of each hull . the design is very simple in concept > with a rear area with heads and showers and cooking and > storage . a open centre area with bolted plated floor over fuel > tanks and engines for removal and a forward living area in two > sections as I cannot transport the full size on our roads . the > ambition is to sail moderately well and to have sufficient power > and range to take me out of trouble as I know next to nothing > about sailing and wish only to use the craft as a holiday home for > my family and friends . I have my own engineering facilities and > the welding and bending of plate is not a challenge however the > hull design eludes me even though I have bought mr gerrs > books and mr calders and others . my next step is to tack > together a few sheets of .06 galvanise 6ftx2.5hulls and seal the > edges with silicone and determine my calculations at .1 scale > and look at its behaviour in the water and modify it as best I can > as it seems to be the only practical route to go . regards denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ben_azo > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:56 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design > > > > > > Hi Denis , WOW what a question and comment list ; > > hard to see what you mean for an old man , post us a link or a > > pic of that South African Idea , so we can see what you mean . > > A steel motorsailor-catamaran ? I know of many steel > > catamarans where displacement is an advantage like for > > dredgers or trawling fishingboats . My definition of a fine > > motorsailor is a 100% fine sailboat , with a great range and a > > decent cruising speed under normal power . Hard to achieve > > with steel as building material for a motorsailor cat !!!! > > but it can be build for sure , as long as it is for a 12m +boat, > > but a catamaran motorsailor not sailing or motoring above > hull > > speed ,why motorsail slow when you can go faster with less > > energy in the first place .Interesting topic?? not in my eyes , > > why should we even consider building such a boat ? > > Please , you tell me . > > Old uncle Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > > > hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea > of > > fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each > hull > > on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and > > does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for > > motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area > to > > investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from > nasa I > > hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like > > myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when > visiting > > this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred > > thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ben_azo > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need > > another > > > investigation team , special agents going undercover to > see if > > > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary > idea > > ?? > > > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > > > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised > > even > > > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > > > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy > coming > > > out of an advisory office where politic connections count > more > > > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > > > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit > . > > > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > > > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > > > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > > > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > > > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > > verified > > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do > > you > > > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an > engineer. > > > You are > > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > > that > > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys > > that > > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and > > other > > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > > didn't > > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > > naval > > > architects. > > > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never > told > > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > > local > > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at > least > > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. > Why > > not > > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem > if > > you > > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when > in > > fact > > > you > > > > are not!". > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC > that > > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > > regardless > > > > of > > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and > take > > you > > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > > degree, no > > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if > you > > > manage to > > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > are > > > not! > > > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > > Whether > > > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is > what > > > > makes > > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they > > want? > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that > > the > > > fake label > > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > > those > > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly > thru > > > hard work and > > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were > finding > > > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > > > degree. There > > > > are > > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > > Many > > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, > and > > > being > > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a > > color > > > ink-jet, > > > > bought a > > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you > end > > up > > > with an > > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes > > muster > > > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English > > teachers. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > > architecture, a > > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about > 11 > > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. > Anyone > > can > > > call > > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > > yourself a naval > > > > > >>architect. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is > like > > > calling > > > > > >> > > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > > architect, > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with > > the > > > better > > > > > >> > > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), > and > > I > > > have worked > > > > > >> > > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > > > including Strength of > > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the > field. > > > They > > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will > only > > take > > > you 4 > > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will > object > > to > > > you > > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms > of Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4605|4598|2004-07-16 15:28:54|Gerd|Re: simple 2D CAD?|Thanks David, lino sounds like just the thing, although at 395 US that's a bit on the expensive side. Guess I will have to work very fast to stay in the 30 day demo period ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote: > feel you need more 2D tools you can always use Lino > | 4606|4433|2004-07-16 15:31:51|brentswain38|Re: Hull strength|The only skeg one of my boats lost was after hitting the beach in high surf for the third time, having been pounded by high surf with her skeg burried in hard sand for 16 days on a previous occasion without it breaking.With the strength of steel it is quite easy to build a skeg which will survive any situation. Skegs fall off only when designers and builders take the strength of steel for granted . With the weight of a skeg being low down ,it doesn't hurt to do a massive overkill on strength.The same is more true of rudders, especially gudgeons and pintles. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > All this talk has got me thinking about skegs and also how the keels stay > on. I am guessing that a lead fin keel of about 4000 pounds is 12 inches > wide at the top. They are held on with a bunch of bolts to wooden boats and > they stay there for many years and even hit things, sometimes causing > damage. Now I am thinking that the stresses on a skeg should be a lot less > than the stress on a keel. The skeg does not really do anything. A transom > hung rudder would have more stress. I can see the stress if the skeg hit > something but usually the keel hits the object. If the skegs are so > problematic then leave them off. Keep a spare rudder on board with mounting > attachments. So far the skeg problems have been described as: one boat on > the beach which may or may not have had damage depending on the source, a > steel boat lost at sea for an unknown reason, another boat taking on a lot > of water around the skeg attachment point but no explanation about what > happened. Based on this information we are going to undertake an entire > review of all skegs at sea. What about building a waterproof housing around > the skeg on the inside so if the skeg gets ripped off by a giant squid the > boat will not sink. Also it might be easier to make the skeg sacrifice > itself when hit rather than building the joint like a tank. Michael with a > skeg less boat although I really like the idea of using one to cool the > engine. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Gainer" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 2:20 PM > Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > If I assume a skeg that is a box that is 24 inches long 6 inches wide and > 4 > > feet deep with a load of 200 lbs per square inch, I get a stress of 38,333 > > lbs per inch of weld at the joint to the hull. And if the skeg is the same > > except its now 12 inches wide I get 19,166 lps per inch for the stress. > Now > > take it too an extreme and make the skeg 24 inches wide my math says I get > > 9,583 lbs per inch. When I resolve the force this way am I making a valid > > analysis of the loading at the joint? I have never looked at the skeg > before > > but this is the method that I would use to calculate the size of keel > bolts > > that I need in a wood or fiberglass hull. With all of the talk on this > site > > I am now getting second thoughts on this. > > Bob > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® > > Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp? cid=3963 > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4607|4433|2004-07-16 16:57:48|Robert Gainer|Re: Hull strength|Brent said >With the weight of a skeg being low down ,it doesn't hurt to do a >massive overkill on strength.The same is more true of rudders, >especially gudgeons and pintles. Brent; I know that you have considerable experience and I may be wrong, but it seams to me that adding weight to the ends of the boat without reason or design is a little extreme. Also to make the rudder any heaver then it needs to be for purposes of strength will run the risk of driving the windvane crazy, and don�t forget the load on the tiller and other hardware or against ones shins in a seaway. Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Planning a family vacation? Check out the MSN Family Travel guide! http://dollar.msn.com| 4608|4598|2004-07-16 17:50:54|pricereynolds|Re: simple 2D CAD?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi all > I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, > should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. > Any recommendations ? > Gerd | 4609|4598|2004-07-16 17:51:21|pricereynolds|Re: simple 2D CAD?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi all > I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, > should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. > Any recommendations ? > Gerd | 4610|4598|2004-07-16 17:53:01|pricereynolds|Re: simple 2D CAD?|Gerd, Give Delta CAD a try. I highly recomend it for simple drawings. http://www.dcad.com You will find and almost fully functional demo there. Pricer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Hi all > I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, > should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. > Any recommendations ? > Gerd | 4611|4599|2004-07-16 18:06:02|Courtney Thomas|Re: Home built Plasma cutter|Geoff, I'll let you know when I find it. Cordially, Courtney .. wrote: > Hi Courtney, > I would also like the link for the home built plasma site. > Geoff > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 04/06/2004 > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4612|4581|2004-07-17 01:09:14|brian vezina|survival in surf|Greg: Up to now you have been a great contributor to this site. But now I think your being unrealistic. I own a BS36 and have more confidence in it than ever after hearing how well Mungo did in that surf. The boat was obviously strong enough to handle anything at sea, even a hurricane and now, the skegs are TWICE as wide and strong. The forces on a boat at sea are nothing compared to a boat being slammed on a hard beach in large surf where the complete wave breaks. We don't know exactly what happened on the beach, was the whole boat picked up in the surf and dropped on its skeg? I don't think any boat would have done any better. Anyways I don't think boats are designed to survive being pounded in surf forever, they are designed to be sailed on the ocean without failier and that's what we have. Not speaking for Brent but I don't think he has anything to answer for. Brian --- ge@... wrote: > There is nothing bulletproof about a metal boat with > the skeg and keel weaker than the rest of the boat. > It is simply a false sense > of security. As Mungo showed, when the appendages > are attached weaker than the rest of the boat they > age faster. Thus, Mungo > survived the first grounding intact, but the skeg > failed rapidly during the second grounding. This > should not happen in a metal > boat. > > Everyone on this site is involved in metal boats > because they can be built to be virtually > indestructible. In metal, the appendages > can be built as strong as the rest of the hull with > a trivial amount of work and cost. Given how simple > it is to do, why would > anyone want to build a metal boat in which the skeg > and keel are the weakest point? What BENEFIT is > there in making the skeg and > keel weak points? > > Please, no excuses why, no anecdotes that can't > measure metal fatigue, simply what is the benefit? > How does it help the boat to > build the keel and skeg weaker than the rest of the > boat? Are you trying to make the boat faster? More > reliable? Or simply save a > few bucks during the construction? > > Brent, I note you have not acknolowledged the > miscalculation of the strength of correction to > Mungo's skeg, and the implications for > skeg and keel attachment strengths. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Small sailboat capable of > circumnavigation > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > might be a good idea to think about the material > to > > build out of. aluminum is great stuff, light & > > comprably less maintainance. > > > > at the same time, cost is a lot more, there is no > > where near the volume of used aluminum at scrap > > dealers and welding of alum is also considerably > more > > specialized. > > > > at the same time steel is cheap, there is lots of > > steel and stainless steel at scrap yards and > welding > > of steel is available everywhere. > > > > alloy is geat stuff, but cheap it is not. and to > > engineer to match steel is yet another cost and > > consideration. if you are looking for bulletproof > at a > > very reasonable cost, Brent Swain is the man. > > > > a 27' steelie is not too heavy but overly strong. > > > > You in Vancouver? When you planning on building? > > > > Shane > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/| 4613|4581|2004-07-17 01:26:43|Michael Casling|Re: survival in surf|Brian I have to agree with you on this. Boats are primarily designed to survive the forces imposed by the water, anything more is overkill, but it is still comforting to know that the boat might survive a grounding. The issue with the boat on the beach as in the precise details can not be known. For me this skeg thing is not an issue. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: brian vezina To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:09 PM Subject: [origamiboats] survival in surf Greg: Up to now you have been a great contributor to this site. But now I think your being unrealistic. I own a BS36 and have more confidence in it than ever after hearing how well Mungo did in that surf. The boat was obviously strong enough to handle anything at sea, even a hurricane and now, the skegs are TWICE as wide and strong. The forces on a boat at sea are nothing compared to a boat being slammed on a hard beach in large surf where the complete wave breaks. We don't know exactly what happened on the beach, was the whole boat picked up in the surf and dropped on its skeg? I don't think any boat would have done any better. Anyways I don't think boats are designed to survive being pounded in surf forever, they are designed to be sailed on the ocean without failier and that's what we have. Not speaking for Brent but I don't think he has anything to answer for. Brian --- ge@... wrote: > There is nothing bulletproof about a metal boat with > the skeg and keel weaker than the rest of the boat. > It is simply a false sense > of security. As Mungo showed, when the appendages > are attached weaker than the rest of the boat they > age faster. Thus, Mungo > survived the first grounding intact, but the skeg > failed rapidly during the second grounding. This > should not happen in a metal > boat. > > Everyone on this site is involved in metal boats > because they can be built to be virtually > indestructible. In metal, the appendages > can be built as strong as the rest of the hull with > a trivial amount of work and cost. Given how simple > it is to do, why would > anyone want to build a metal boat in which the skeg > and keel are the weakest point? What BENEFIT is > there in making the skeg and > keel weak points? > > Please, no excuses why, no anecdotes that can't > measure metal fatigue, simply what is the benefit? > How does it help the boat to > build the keel and skeg weaker than the rest of the > boat? Are you trying to make the boat faster? More > reliable? Or simply save a > few bucks during the construction? > > Brent, I note you have not acknolowledged the > miscalculation of the strength of correction to > Mungo's skeg, and the implications for > skeg and keel attachment strengths. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Small sailboat capable of > circumnavigation > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > might be a good idea to think about the material > to > > build out of. aluminum is great stuff, light & > > comprably less maintainance. > > > > at the same time, cost is a lot more, there is no > > where near the volume of used aluminum at scrap > > dealers and welding of alum is also considerably > more > > specialized. > > > > at the same time steel is cheap, there is lots of > > steel and stainless steel at scrap yards and > welding > > of steel is available everywhere. > > > > alloy is geat stuff, but cheap it is not. and to > > engineer to match steel is yet another cost and > > consideration. if you are looking for bulletproof > at a > > very reasonable cost, Brent Swain is the man. > > > > a 27' steelie is not too heavy but overly strong. > > > > You in Vancouver? When you planning on building? > > > > Shane > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4614|4581|2004-07-17 01:33:55|Brent Geery|Re: survival in surf|On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 22:09:11 -0700 (PDT), brian vezina wrote: > Greg: > Up to now you have been a great contributor to > this site. But now I think your being unrealistic. I > own a BS36 and have more confidence in it than ever > after hearing how well Mungo did in that surf. The > boat was obviously strong enough to handle anything at > sea, even a hurricane and now, the skegs are TWICE as > wide and strong. The forces on a boat at sea are > nothing compared to a boat being slammed on a hard > beach in large surf where the complete wave breaks. > We don't know exactly what happened on the beach, > was the whole boat picked up in the surf and dropped > on its skeg? I don't think any boat would have done > any better. > Anyways I don't think boats are designed to > survive being pounded in surf forever, they are > designed to be sailed on the ocean without failier and > that's what we have. Not speaking for Brent but I > don't think he has anything to answer for. > Brian Call me a conspiracy theorist, but IMO, Greg has constantly tried to discredit Brent and his designs. Read back through the archives, and see the many comments disparaging Brent's boats. IMO, he is just trying to drum up interest in his own designs by slandering the competition, and I think that attitude stinks. Maybe I'm completely off-base, but that is the impression I get when I read his messages in totality via the archives. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4615|4581|2004-07-17 02:04:45|John Cupp|Re: survival in surf|From my own point of view I have salvaged parts of boats that have run unto the surf and disintegrated there. Wood and fiberglass both and it didn't take more than a few minutes. Such a loss is very hard to take by the owners, that is if they survived. If a steel boat was in the surf and only broke a skeg that is fantastic! I have repaired fishing boats that have hit sunken boats, large floating hardwood logs and even rocks (fishing where the should not have been). I know that there are now large containers that lurk below the surface waiting to hole any hull that strikes them. I have also built steel boats for companies and had employees ground them on rocks and I fixed the aftermath. For a steel hull to survive in the surf not once but twice is totally amazing from my prospective. I don't know the circumstances but twice is either very unlucky or negligent of anchor rodes. But the main thing is the boat survived. Steel fishing boats that hit logs need and did have large bilge pumps run from their main motor to keep afloat. They busted the bow metal a watertight bulkhead and part of a concrete keel. One boat I fixed had a ten foot long hole in half inch plate! Steel boats are not indestructible and when I hear about a bout battered in the surf and only breaking a skeg I think that is very lucky and the owner should buy the guy who welded the bottom a paid vacation! But remember that most boats that hit underwater objects go to the bottom in a matter of minutes. Just because you have a steel boat doesn't mean it will never sink. The amount of energy that is used up in a breaking surf could run the world with power for a year from just one storm. Why people are not harnessing that is testament to its destructive force. Any boat that I owned that rode out the breaking surf would be put on the hard ASAP and magnafluxed for cracks. Take care and be especially safe, too many boat owners are sleeping in the deep. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Brian I have to agree with you on this. Boats are primarily designed to survive the forces imposed by the water, anything more is overkill, but it is still comforting to know that the boat might survive a grounding. The issue with the boat on the beach as in the precise details can not be known. For me this skeg thing is not an issue. Michael > ----- Original Message ----- > From: brian vezina > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 10:09 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] survival in surf | 4616|4581|2004-07-17 02:05:29|Paul J. Thompson|Greg's criticisms|Greg, I have been thinking this for sometime. Much of what you have to say is interesting and at times useful. However it is time to get off Brent's case. Brent has near a 100 of his designs sailing out there (I do not think you have anywhere near that number). They are safe boats and they seldom break, despite the treatment that some of them have received. That Mungo lost her skeg in the surf is neither here nor there. It is amazing that she survived all that she did. It tells me one thing, Brent's bots are tough. I wonder if one of your boats would do as well and despite all your theory, we will not know until that happens. Brent designs simple, practical and tough boats. It is quite likely that the people that build his boats would not build yours and vice versa. So there is no real competition between the two of you. I seldom notice Brent attacking you (or anyone else) he just states his case, where as you are forever blowing your own trumpet and trying to find fault with his work. You might bear in mind that Brent is the one who has pioneered origami construction techniques and popularised the method, not you. So how about you stop bad mouthing him and show some respect. I for one would think a lot better of you if you did. Regards, Paul PS. If you want to know what I am, I am a professional boat builder in New Zealand. The company that I work for is Johnson Yachts International. We build in steel, alloy and wood but mostly steel. --- ge@... wrote: > There is nothing bulletproof about a metal boat with > the skeg and keel weaker than the rest of the boat. > It is simply a false sense > of security. As Mungo showed, when the appendages > are attached weaker than the rest of the boat they > age faster. Thus, Mungo > survived the first grounding intact, but the skeg > failed rapidly during the second grounding. This > should not happen in a metal > boat. > > Everyone on this site is involved in metal boats > because they can be built to be virtually > indestructible. In metal, the appendages > can be built as strong as the rest of the hull with > a trivial amount of work and cost. Given how simple > it is to do, why would > anyone want to build a metal boat in which the skeg > and keel are the weakest point? What BENEFIT is > there in making the skeg and > keel weak points? > > Please, no excuses why, no anecdotes that can't > measure metal fatigue, simply what is the benefit? > How does it help the boat to > build the keel and skeg weaker than the rest of the > boat? Are you trying to make the boat faster? More > reliable? Or simply save a > few bucks during the construction? > > Brent, I note you have not acknolowledged the > miscalculation of the strength of correction to > Mungo's skeg, and the implications for > skeg and keel attachment strengths. > > Greg Elliott > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:12 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Small sailboat capable of > circumnavigation > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > might be a good idea to think about the material > to > > build out of. aluminum is great stuff, light & > > comprably less maintainance. > > > > at the same time, cost is a lot more, there is no > > where near the volume of used aluminum at scrap > > dealers and welding of alum is also considerably > more > > specialized. > > > > at the same time steel is cheap, there is lots of > > steel and stainless steel at scrap yards and > welding > > of steel is available everywhere. > > > > alloy is geat stuff, but cheap it is not. and to > > engineer to match steel is yet another cost and > > consideration. if you are looking for bulletproof > at a > > very reasonable cost, Brent Swain is the man. > > > > a 27' steelie is not too heavy but overly strong. > > > > You in Vancouver? When you planning on building? > > > > Shane > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.715 / Virus Database: 471 - Release Date: 04/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.715 / Virus Database: 471 - Release Date: 04/07/2004| 4617|22|2004-07-17 02:06:53|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Otter1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : for young Ben:Otter is a Cormoranr ;-) You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Otter1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4618|4618|2004-07-17 02:29:47|ben_azo|For young Ben . Navigation programs|Hi young Ben , I realy hope you will like Otter pics posted especialy for you . I was realy surprised to find your good links posted from down-under . I see you teach navigation ; I use MaxSea blue water on an old Panasonic-Toughbook with an even older MMX processor , but it works just fine ; I dont know if you saw the pics of how I installed them near my interior steering in the pilothouse see http://fr.photos.yahoo.com/ben_azo album Westerly where you will find more than 50 pics of some mayor transformations and refurbishing I did , most of my friends are older people but they all sail the British Channel and French Brittany , where some serious trafic , currents , winds and fog occur regularly. You can find a good secondhand Toughbook for 200$ . Lately I had a look at a 150 Euro navigation program see : www.eole-informatique.com , I would welcome suggestions for cheap navigation programs cause 150 Euro is what I pay every year as upgrade for the MaxSea , and many friends dont want to invest that much and are looking for alternatives. I will send the larger pics you asked for soon. Old uncle Ben| 4619|4619|2004-07-17 03:21:05|ben_azo|Secrets about META's Voyageur|Hi Guys , please find here under a post I made on June 24 in another group as a comment on the " Origami Trolleryacht " file I visited in this Group , when I had a discussion about " Real Frameless " boats , sailboats & motorboats be it mono or multihulls. Can anybody in the Group tell me if until now a real frameless construction was done in the boatconstructions shown and debated in this Group. The last "Otter " file I uploaded especialy for " Young Ben" would be an ideal hulltype to build frameless in thick Aluminum. If there is an interest I could upload the 10 Juin .jpeg files you can find in http://fr.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/puckpascal a preliminary for a guy with an interst building a boat as YM Tanton " Penn Gwyn " but with a flat transom and to be build in thick aluminum . Real FRAMELESS ? is there any interst to start a discussion about that TOPIC ? I realy dont know and would be realy happy to hear about it . Old uncle Ben From:  "ben_azo" Date:  Thu Jun 24, 2004  9:49 am Subject:  Secrets about META 's Voyageur ! One of the reasons for the succes of that program : a Transcontinental motorvoyager as seen on http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm It's a Michel Joubert designed sailboathull for Mr Fricaud the inventor of the META patent . Integral tanks in the flatbottomed hull ( no stringers or frames needed in that hull , LOL ) ad to the stability and a capsize (wich not occured ) has no more effect than on a well designed sailboat ( see my 360 ° rolltest pic in Photos ) Nice in the Med to NY and back , not bad at all what do you need more ? A mast and sails I would say but than its not a new record. LOL So Keith , even if I find the Meta pics in the Origami Files , this design and the posed pics over there have nothing at all in common , not the design , not the building method , with the Origami trawler preliminaries I find there. I mean nothing negative with this comment , on the contrary , Beuhler's Dieselduck looks much closer to what I see there , and the " Dieselduck " & consorts in that stout family of boats designed for selfbuilding are a fine example of that kind of trawler , much better and safer than many more popular glass-boats of massproduction . XXXXXXXXXXX I talk to much and I am afraid to sound as an old smart-ass schoolteacher. Ben| 4620|4598|2004-07-17 03:28:45|Gerd|Re: simple 2D CAD?|Thanks Pricer, had a look and seems very compact, might do. what I really need is to be able to make quick scetches and simple construction drawings for distribution, using elements I already have in rhino, but don't have the time to learn yet another program. Will try it ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pricereynolds" wrote: > > Gerd, > > Give Delta CAD a try. I highly recomend it for simple drawings. > http://www.dcad.com You will find and almost fully functional demo > there. > > Pricer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Hi all > > I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, > > should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. > > Any recommendations ? > > Gerd | 4621|4581|2004-07-17 05:42:24|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Greg's criticisms|I would like to second everything that Paul has just stated. If there is criticism to be dished out it should be dished out to the owner of the boat. Put your boat on the beach more than once and people are going to start questioning what brand of rum you drink. Can't find a way to get it off the beach until 16 days later and again questions come to mind. Not having been there I have no answers. Gerald Niffenegger --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J. Thompson" wrote: > Greg, > > I have been thinking this for sometime. Much of what you have to say is > interesting and at times useful. However it is time to get off Brent's case. > Brent has near a 100 of his designs sailing out there (I do not think you > have anywhere near that number). They are safe boats and they seldom break, > despite the treatment that some of them have received. > > That Mungo lost her skeg in the surf is neither here nor there. It is > amazing that she survived all that she did. It tells me one thing, Brent's > bots are tough. I wonder if one of your boats would do as well and despite > all your theory, we will not know until that happens. > > Brent designs simple, practical and tough boats. It is quite likely that the > people that build his boats would not build yours and vice versa. So there > is no real competition between the two of you. > > I seldom notice Brent attacking you (or anyone else) he just states his > case, where as you are forever blowing your own trumpet and trying to find > fault with his work. You might bear in mind that Brent is the one who has > pioneered origami construction techniques and popularised the method, not > you. So how about you stop bad mouthing him and show some respect. I for one > would think a lot better of you if you did. > > Regards, > > Paul > > PS. If you want to know what I am, I am a professional boat builder in New > Zealand. The company that I work for is Johnson Yachts International. We > build in steel, alloy and wood but mostly steel. > > > --- ge@e... wrote: > > There is nothing bulletproof about a metal boat with > > the skeg and keel weaker than the rest of the boat. > > It is simply a false sense > > of security. As Mungo showed, when the appendages > > are attached weaker than the rest of the boat they > > age faster. Thus, Mungo > > survived the first grounding intact, but the skeg > > failed rapidly during the second grounding. This > > should not happen in a metal > > boat. > > > > Everyone on this site is involved in metal boats > > because they can be built to be virtually > > indestructible. In metal, the appendages > > can be built as strong as the rest of the hull with > > a trivial amount of work and cost. Given how simple > > it is to do, why would > > anyone want to build a metal boat in which the skeg > > and keel are the weakest point? What BENEFIT is > > there in making the skeg and > > keel weak points? > > > > Please, no excuses why, no anecdotes that can't > > measure metal fatigue, simply what is the benefit? > > How does it help the boat to > > build the keel and skeg weaker than the rest of the > > boat? Are you trying to make the boat faster? More > > reliable? Or simply save a > > few bucks during the construction? > > > > Brent, I note you have not acknolowledged the > > miscalculation of the strength of correction to > > Mungo's skeg, and the implications for > > skeg and keel attachment strengths. > > > > Greg Elliott > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 1:12 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Small sailboat capable of > > circumnavigation > > > > > > > Hi Jim, > > > > > > might be a good idea to think about the material > > to > > > build out of. aluminum is great stuff, light & > > > comprably less maintainance. > > > > > > at the same time, cost is a lot more, there is no > > > where near the volume of used aluminum at scrap > > > dealers and welding of alum is also considerably > > more > > > specialized. > > > > > > at the same time steel is cheap, there is lots of > > > steel and stainless steel at scrap yards and > > welding > > > of steel is available everywhere. > > > > > > alloy is geat stuff, but cheap it is not. and to > > > engineer to match steel is yet another cost and > > > consideration. if you are looking for bulletproof > > at a > > > very reasonable cost, Brent Swain is the man. > > > > > > a 27' steelie is not too heavy but overly strong. > > > > > > You in Vancouver? When you planning on building? > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.715 / Virus Database: 471 - Release Date: 04/07/2004 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.715 / Virus Database: 471 - Release Date: 04/07/2004 | 4622|4599|2004-07-17 06:49:56|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Home built Plasma cutter|Here is what some guy named Gary had to say about making your own plasma cutter: The power supply is very similar to a HF start inverter TIG supply with one very big difference. Output voltage is much higher. Plasma cutters run at about 350 arc volts while TIG is about 20 volts. The high voltage relatively low current arc dumps much more energy into the plasma, and less into the consumables (electrodes). This is the key to plasma torch operation. High power inverters are tricky beasts at best to design and construct, high voltage ones even more so. Expect components to explode, and expect flashovers, during development. Very subtle and hard to resolve problems often crop up at the frequencies at which inverters operate. Much of the circuitry of a plasma cutter is there to protect the equipment and the operator in case something goes awry. You're dealing with potentially lethal output voltages and relatively high currents. This isn't something I'd tackle at home with limited knowledge and limited budget. Gary --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, ".." wrote: > Hi Courtney, > I would also like the link for the home built plasma site. > Geoff > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 04/06/2004 | 4623|4623|2004-07-17 11:21:57|prairiemaidca|Keep it simple|Hi All: I normally don't respond to most of the posts like some of the more prolific contributors mainly due to my own lack of knowledge on most of the technical subjects. I do however read between the lines quite well and I have to agree that the subject of skeg strength and other items seem to be beaten to death just to make one side of the discussion look better than others. As someone who has been in this groups site since it had very few members the trend is clear if you follow it back. I have utmost confidence in Prairie Maid's design and the people who have seen her or been involved in her construction think that she is one very strong vessel. A couple of my friends are very knowlegable in metal working and stength issues in fabrication and they work with forces that make what a boat will endure look like childs play. Their opinion is the project has a lot of overkill in it but if they were in the middle of the ocean they would like that feature in their home. I think most of us are looking for a relativly easy boat to build with as low a cost as possible and still feel we are going to be safe when out on the water.. To this end I think that the origami system meets that end. Martin Forster (Prairie Maid)| 4624|4619|2004-07-17 11:37:20|yvesmariedetanton|Re: Secrets about META's Voyageur|About Tanton's 38'Pen-Gwyn. The original is a steel double ender. and not frameless. There is a new aluminum version with a transom and designed with the Strongall method of building in mind. Also for Meta I have prepared 3 different power boats designs. A 32.5' Trawler; a hybrid 12M and 14.5M. Another 17M is in the work. True Tanton's Origami steel sailboats can be found in a 39'and also a 31.5 footer. Many smaller power boats have been build following a folding method of construction. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi Guys , please find here under a post I made on June 24 > in another group as a comment on the > " Origami Trolleryacht " file I visited in this Group , when I had > a discussion about " Real Frameless " boats , > sailboats & motorboats be it mono or multihulls. > Can anybody in the Group tell me if until now a real > frameless construction was done in the boatconstructions > shown and debated in this Group. > The last "Otter " file I uploaded especialy for " Young Ben" > would be an ideal hulltype to build frameless in thick Aluminum. > If there is an interest I could upload the 10 Juin .jpeg files > you can find in http://fr.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/puckpascal > a preliminary for a guy with an interst building a boat as > YM Tanton " Penn Gwyn " but with a flat transom and to be > build in thick aluminum . > Real FRAMELESS ? is there any interst to start a discussion > about that TOPIC ? I realy dont know and would be realy > happy to hear about it . > Old uncle Ben > > > From:  "ben_azo" > Date:  Thu Jun 24, 2004  9:49 am > Subject:  Secrets about META 's Voyageur ! > > One of the reasons for the succes of that program : > a Transcontinental motorvoyager as seen on > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm > It's a Michel Joubert designed sailboathull for Mr Fricaud the > inventor of the META patent . > Integral tanks in the flatbottomed hull ( no stringers or frames > needed in that hull , LOL ) ad to the stability and a capsize > (wich not occured ) has no more effect than on a well designed > sailboat ( see my 360 ° rolltest pic in Photos ) > Nice in the Med to NY and back , not bad at all what do you > need more ? A mast and sails I would say but than its not > a new record. LOL > So Keith , even if I find the Meta pics in the Origami Files , > this design and the posed pics over there have nothing at > all in common , not the design , not the building method , > with the Origami trawler preliminaries I find there. > I mean nothing negative with this comment , on the contrary , > Beuhler's Dieselduck looks much closer to what I see there , > and the " Dieselduck " & consorts in that stout family of > boats designed for selfbuilding are a fine example of that > kind of trawler , much better and safer than many more > popular glass-boats of massproduction . > XXXXXXXXXXX > I talk to much and I am afraid to sound as an > old smart-ass schoolteacher. > Ben | 4625|4625|2004-07-17 11:47:55|Scott Carle|Re: Digest Number 874|Gerd here are some programs you might look at http://www.ribbonsoft.com/qcad.html http://sailcut.sourceforge.net/ for designing sails http://sketchboard.sourceforge.net/ another program http://lignumcad.sourceforge.net/doc/en/HTML/index.html furniture designer just threw in that last one for the heck of it. Scott Carle aka audeojude sv Comes around, Goes around __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 4626|4581|2004-07-17 12:46:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg's criticisms|In 1985 we were sitting in Acapulco harbor, dismasted. Lucky to be there. Dick and Roz on Because happened along by chance, gave us some fuel and got us in. Otherwise ... The cause. Metal fatigue. Our boat was by no means the oldest in the fleet, we had simply sailed the boat further and harder than anyone else. The manufacturer flew us a new mast and sails at no cost and eventually replaced their chief engineer and the masts in a couple of hundred boats. They wanted to know about the failure, discussed it openly, and made a correction. This is simply a safety issue to me. Transferring skeg loads through the skin is not best practices, as it makes the skin the point of failure. In the interest of harmony in the group I will drop the topic. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com| 4627|4598|2004-07-17 13:54:41|David K McComber|Re: simple 2D CAD?|Gerd Have you tried the make 2D command in Rhino? It makes the 3 standard views + in Iso. View. It then is very ease to dim. Using Rhino's dim. Command. I have made a print that I used to make the rudder heel bearing bracket for the boat I'm designing. David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: Gerd [mailto:gerd@...] Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 3:28 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: simple 2D CAD? Thanks Pricer, had a look and seems very compact, might do. what I really need is to be able to make quick scetches and simple construction drawings for distribution, using elements I already have in rhino, but don't have the time to learn yet another program. Will try it ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pricereynolds" wrote: > > Gerd, > > Give Delta CAD a try. I highly recomend it for simple drawings. > http://www.dcad.com You will find and almost fully functional demo > there. > > Pricer > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Hi all > > I am locking for a simple and free 2D CAD program for scetches, > > should be able to read in stuff I export from Rhino. > > Any recommendations ? > > Gerd To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4628|4598|2004-07-17 15:05:36|Gerd|Re: simple 2D CAD?|David - yes, I used that. it's just that for the quick and dirty sketch it's a bit time consuming to first create everything in 3D. Can't really build the complete YAGO in Rhino right down to the last screw and bracket ;-) another problem I have with Rhino is exporting. At one point I was exporting to *.ai (adobe), then open with a drawing program, maybe make some handwritten notices and and then make a jpeg. That was fine, until I found that some lines simply would not export and disappeared, never found out why... By now I find that maybe a simple screenshot from rhino, and then some standard drawing program to scribble into it will have to do. I do not really have that much time, being busy wigh the job, the boat, the site and all and still need to do the drawings for the construction workbook in during my holidays next month. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "David K McComber" wrote:...........> Have you tried the make 2D command in Rhino? It makes the 3 standard views + > in Iso. View. It then is very ease to dim. Using Rhino's dim. Command.| 4629|4581|2004-07-17 15:21:25|Paul J. Thompson|Re: Greg's criticisms|Greg, We all share your concerns about metal fatigue and we appreciate your contributions on that subject. What is not appreciated is the personnel attacks on Brent. That is simply not acceptable. Paul In 1985 we were sitting in Acapulco harbor, dismasted. Lucky to be there. Dick and Roz on Because happened along by chance, gave us some fuel and got us in. Otherwise ... The cause. Metal fatigue. Our boat was by no means the oldest in the fleet, we had simply sailed the boat further and harder than anyone else. The manufacturer flew us a new mast and sails at no cost and eventually replaced their chief engineer and the masts in a couple of hundred boats. They wanted to know about the failure, discussed it openly, and made a correction. This is simply a safety issue to me. Transferring skeg loads through the skin is not best practices, as it makes the skin the point of failure. In the interest of harmony in the group I will drop the topic. Greg Elliott http://www.origamimagic.com To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.715 / Virus Database: 471 - Release Date: 04/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.715 / Virus Database: 471 - Release Date: 04/07/2004| 4630|4619|2004-07-17 20:49:52|ben_azo|A Frameless Pen-Gwyn & Meta & Frameless|Hi Mr Tanton , great to see you in this Group. Sory I was not aware you designed new boats for Meta , the nautical press should pay more attention to new and interesting designs for yards building one-off's on order. The customer refered to in the post lower asked me to order the plans for Penn Gwyn and I was very happy with the plans cause they where as all plans should be , complete accurate & selfexplaining even for amateurs ; all we did was to computerise the waterlines for plating measurements and ease of construction . Great to hear your thinking about a new version , please keep the same extreem small draft and ease of taking the sand ; and sinds the prices of marina-berths keep increasing I would say the shorter the better . Many young pensioners realy only need a fine liveaboard cruiser for two with some spare berths for occasional guests. In Belgium ,Holland and Germany people are more used to metal boats and I have good experiences with Corten Steel. I just visited http://www.tantonyachts.com/ and give your designnumber 882 for Pen Gwyn ,easyer for interested to find. Many people in the Boating Groups seems to believe its enough to bye a boatdesignprogram to design Boats ,I dont. How to explain here the system of the " Floating stringers ??" I mean " Lisses flottantes " ? It could be of interest to some to understand why and how its used but my technical english is bad .Personaly I like to use the word compounded hull instead of the word Origami ; cause all Delco's are Distributors but not all Distributors are Delco's ;-) By the way , I liked the name Pen-Gwyn so much ( as always you took the time to explain us it's a White Bird ) I used the name for a 29ft Laurent Gilles designed Konsort Duo wich I turned into a tough little cruiser for two , you can see the pics in http://fr.photos.yahoo.com/ben_azo I think the 30ft Tahiti ketch was your inspiration for Pen-Gwyn so I want to direct all real boatlovers to a fine book : A ketch called Tahiti - John G. Hanna and his Yachtdesigns by J.S. Doherty Int. Marine Publishing Co Camden Maine. So the question remains : is there an interest in this Group for real frameless building in steel or thick metal ? I realy dont know , lets see if any potential user comes forward. Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "yvesmariedetanton" wrote: > About Tanton's 38'Pen-Gwyn. The original is a steel double ender. and > not frameless. There is a new aluminum version with a transom and > designed with the Strongall method of building in mind. Also for > Meta I have prepared 3 different power boats designs. A 32.5' > Trawler; a hybrid 12M and 14.5M. Another 17M is in the work. True > Tanton's Origami steel sailboats can be found in a 39'and also a 31.5 > footer. Many smaller power boats have been build following a folding > method of construction. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Hi Guys , please find here under a post I made on June 24 > > in another group as a comment on the > > " Origami Trolleryacht " file I visited in this Group , when I had > > a discussion about " Real Frameless " boats , > > sailboats & motorboats be it mono or multihulls. > > Can anybody in the Group tell me if until now a real > > frameless construction was done in the boatconstructions > > shown and debated in this Group. > > The last "Otter " file I uploaded especialy for " Young Ben" > > would be an ideal hulltype to build frameless in thick Aluminum. > > If there is an interest I could upload the 10 Juin .jpeg files > > you can find in http://fr.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/puckpascal > > a preliminary for a guy with an interst building a boat as > > YM Tanton " Penn Gwyn " but with a flat transom and to be > > build in thick aluminum . > > Real FRAMELESS ? is there any interst to start a discussion > > about that TOPIC ? I realy dont know and would be realy > > happy to hear about it . > > Old uncle Ben > > > > > > From:  "ben_azo" > > Date:  Thu Jun 24, 2004  9:49 am > > Subject:  Secrets about META 's Voyageur ! > > > > One of the reasons for the succes of that program : > > a Transcontinental motorvoyager as seen on > > http://www.reducostall.com/index.htm > > It's a Michel Joubert designed sailboathull for Mr Fricaud the > > inventor of the META patent . > > Integral tanks in the flatbottomed hull ( no stringers or frames > > needed in that hull , LOL ) ad to the stability and a capsize > > (wich not occured ) has no more effect than on a well designed > > sailboat ( see my 360 ° rolltest pic in Photos ) > > Nice in the Med to NY and back , not bad at all what do you > > need more ? A mast and sails I would say but than its not > > a new record. LOL > > So Keith , even if I find the Meta pics in the Origami Files , > > this design and the posed pics over there have nothing at > > all in common , not the design , not the building method , > > with the Origami trawler preliminaries I find there. > > I mean nothing negative with this comment , on the contrary , > > Beuhler's Dieselduck looks much closer to what I see there , > > and the " Dieselduck " & consorts in that stout family of > > boats designed for selfbuilding are a fine example of that > > kind of trawler , much better and safer than many more > > popular glass-boats of massproduction . > > XXXXXXXXXXX > > I talk to much and I am afraid to sound as an > > old smart-ass schoolteacher. > > Ben | 4631|4531|2004-07-17 23:10:49|James Douglas|Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Thanks to all who responded to my intial post. I have experienced considerable difficulty in that I have compiled at least 3 messages to those who responded to my initial querry only to have them disappear. Evidently I am still green at more than boat building..... So I'm sending this one...at least you'll know I appreciated all of your comments. Jim Douglas Vancouver, B.C.| 4632|4522|2004-07-18 00:51:02|denis buggy|Re: Hull design|dear brent i did not know we were at war , please tell me more. denis ----- Original Message ----- From: brentswain38 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:23 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design This discussion reminds me of an interview between CBC's Barbera Fromme and an Argintinian during the Falklands war.Fromme said " It didn't make much common sense for Argentina to invade the Falklands at this time." The Argentinian said "My friend, as I'm sure you will understand, what you call common sense is the least common of all the senses." Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" wrote: > dear ben to put my quest into one sentence it is your own words the "search for experts with a proven record in this field "many thanks for your reply .denis > ----- Original Message ----- > From: ben_azo > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:03 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design > > > Dear Denis , WOW : what interesting projects and generous > ideas : building your concept to entertain family and friends > during the holiday saison . > My only comment: consult a reputable maritime engineering > company ,so they can streamline your fantastic ideas a bit and > make you their best offer for a descent preliminary with > some rendering , and project costs estimation. > I am sure many people will be interested , Popular Mechanics > just to name one , but they will show no interest before you > come up with a publishable rendering ; and so am I . > At some stage words have to be translated into design , by > yourself , the engineering facility you own or even better and > safer by experts with a proven record in that field . > I am convinced the boating world is looking forward to see > not only the plans but sure the esthetics and test-reports > of your project , real innovations are always very interesting . > Old uncle Ben > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > wrote: > > dear ben thanks for your reply I hope to build a cat with good > sailing capability shorthanded using my own arrangement of > rotating masts I.e. one in per hull set forward ,and each hull will > be 50-60 ft long with a single 200mmx200mm box keel with a > solid 200x40 length of flat welded under each keel . the box keel > will be the heat exchanger for each 300 bhp engine in each hull > and will have a very heavy wall thickness as will the framing for > the boat which will be welded in each hull .however the boat is in > 5 sections in order for it to make it to the launching site which is > a container terminal and the crane used to offload the containers > will pick up my assembled and bolted boat from the 4 bolted > points which have been built into the design , the structural steel > capable of taking the loads of a unstayed masts are not > practible in the centre of the boat and must be moved to the > centre area of each hull . the design is very simple in concept > with a rear area with heads and showers and cooking and > storage . a open centre area with bolted plated floor over fuel > tanks and engines for removal and a forward living area in two > sections as I cannot transport the full size on our roads . the > ambition is to sail moderately well and to have sufficient power > and range to take me out of trouble as I know next to nothing > about sailing and wish only to use the craft as a holiday home for > my family and friends . I have my own engineering facilities and > the welding and bending of plate is not a challenge however the > hull design eludes me even though I have bought mr gerrs > books and mr calders and others . my next step is to tack > together a few sheets of .06 galvanise 6ftx2.5hulls and seal the > edges with silicone and determine my calculations at .1 scale > and look at its behaviour in the water and modify it as best I can > as it seems to be the only practical route to go . regards denis > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: ben_azo > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:56 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull design > > > > > > Hi Denis , WOW what a question and comment list ; > > hard to see what you mean for an old man , post us a link or a > > pic of that South African Idea , so we can see what you mean . > > A steel motorsailor-catamaran ? I know of many steel > > catamarans where displacement is an advantage like for > > dredgers or trawling fishingboats . My definition of a fine > > motorsailor is a 100% fine sailboat , with a great range and a > > decent cruising speed under normal power . Hard to achieve > > with steel as building material for a motorsailor cat !!!! > > but it can be build for sure , as long as it is for a 12m +boat, > > but a catamaran motorsailor not sailing or motoring above > hull > > speed ,why motorsail slow when you can go faster with less > > energy in the first place .Interesting topic?? not in my eyes , > > why should we even consider building such a boat ? > > Please , you tell me . > > Old uncle Ben > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "denis buggy" > > wrote: > > > hello all .can anybody advise me on the South African idea > of > > fitting or moulding multiptable chines on the inside of each > hull > > on a cat I. E. the tunnel area of a cat to increase stability and > > does anybody know of a steel cat with a proven hull shape for > > motor/sailor use . I hope this is not too dangerous an area > to > > investigate . I would like to welcome our new friend from > nasa I > > hope this collection of space cadets and various aliens like > > myself will not scare you away, a small bit of advice when > visiting > > this site do not forget your stick . cead mile failte (a hundred > > thousand welcomes) denis /----- Original Message ----- > > > From: ben_azo > > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:55 PM > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > Very dangerous areas to investigate , do we realy need > > another > > > investigation team , special agents going undercover to > see if > > > they do not find or discover an unautorised revolutionary > idea > > ?? > > > I sure hope not , boats have been build sinds thousands of > > > years , it was considered a craft . Nothing more , practised > > even > > > today by illaterate persons that never went to school. > > > Does any so called " governemental approval " usualy > coming > > > out of an advisory office where politic connections count > more > > > than common sense bring us more safety ??? > > > As an old salt , sailing on many seas , I dear state : Bullshit > . > > > So please gentleman , lets go back to the Topic : Boats > > > Designing Building & Sailing Fine Boats > > > Less words , more design & building & testing & YEAH > > > something new to explore is all I need to be happy . > > > Old uncle Ben ;-) > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > > > Steve, > > > > > > > > My qualification are a matter of public record and easily > > verified > > > through a phone call to the registrar of UBC. > > > > > > > > Engineering is a field of applied mathematics. Where do > > you > > > think engineers get their formulas? Euler wasn't an > engineer. > > > You are > > > > very unlikely to find a qualified engineer or naval architect > > that > > > isn't good at math. Remember in school, there were guys > > that > > > > could tell the difference between cube and cube root, and > > other > > > guys that didn't have a clew? There is no way the guys that > > didn't > > > > know the difference could have qualified as engineers or > > naval > > > architects. > > > > > > > > By all means check peoples qualifications. I have never > told > > > anyone I am a naval architect. I've been told by a reputable > > local > > > > builder that Brent calls himself a naval architect, or at > least > > > uses NA after his name, but I haven't seen it for myself. > Why > > not > > > > check Brent's qualifications? As you say "a big problem > if > > you > > > manage to convince someone that you are qualified when > in > > fact > > > you > > > > are not!". > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Steve Rankin" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:12 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > ge@e... wrote: > > > > > > It is my understanding that there is no statute in BC > that > > > prohibits people from calling themselves naval architects, > > > regardless > > > > of > > > > > > qualifications. Doctor, lawyer, they will come and > take > > you > > > away if you practice without a license. Naval architect, no > > > > degree, no > > > > > > qualifications, no problem. > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but there is a problem. Actually a big problem if > you > > > manage to > > > > > convince someone that you are qualified when in fact > you > > are > > > not! > > > > > > > > > > > The regulations may well be different in the US. > > Whether > > > the courts will act if you call yourself a naval architect is > what > > > > makes > > > > > > the difference. If they wont act, them what is there to > > > prevent someone from calling themselves whatever they > > want? > > > > > > > > > > > Yes Greg > > > > > You can yourself what you want, but quit pretending that > > the > > > fake label > > > > > qualifies you to do anything! In addition it is an insult to > > those > > > > > people who have earned their qualifications honestly > thru > > > hard work and > > > > > study! > > > > > > > > > > > While we were cruising many of the boats were > finding > > > work teaching English, for which they needed a university > > > degree. There > > > > are > > > > > > sites on the internet that specializes in this service. > > Many > > > of the yachts, being somewhat lacking in qualifications, > and > > > being > > > > > > under-funded to make use of this service, simply > > > downloaded the graphics from the web site, printed it on a > > color > > > ink-jet, > > > > bought a > > > > > > package of gold stick-on decals, and put a large coin > > > underneath the decal. With a bit of careful rubbing, you > end > > up > > > with an > > > > > > embossed university degree that routinely passes > > muster > > > in foreign countries. Off they went to become English > > teachers. > > > > > > > > > > Exactly my point! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg Elliott > > > > > > http://www.origamimagic.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "pipthetroll69" > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:44 AM > > > > > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Hull strength > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>A naval architect is someone with a degree in naval > > > architecture, a > > > > > >>highly specialized field of engineering. There's about > 11 > > > > > >>university's in the US that have N.A. programs. > Anyone > > can > > > call > > > > > >>themselves a yacht designer, but you can't just call > > > yourself a naval > > > > > >>architect. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>Anyone can call themselves a naval architect. It is > like > > > calling > > > > > >> > > > > > >>yourself a surveyor. Everyone on this site is a naval > > > architect, > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>all they have to do is say they are. I am a sailor with > > the > > > better > > > > > >> > > > > > >>part of 20 years offshore experience. My degree is in > > > > > >> > > > > > >>>mathematics and computer science (UBC 1973), > and > > I > > > have worked > > > > > >> > > > > > >>professionally in both these fields. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Well maybe you should study some applied science > > > including Strength of > > > > > Materials, before you pretend to instruct others in the > field. > > > They > > > > > offer courses in this. It's called Engineering and will > only > > take > > > you 4 > > > > > or 5 years to qualify yourself. Meanwhile noone will > object > > to > > > you > > > > > calling yourself a sailor! > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Steve Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >>Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms > > of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4633|4589|2004-07-18 00:59:17|denis buggy|Re: wild thing|dear gerd . thank you for the link i have come accross herr flettner before as a inventor of the gyroplane and towable aircraft from submarines i will reply to you properly later as i am on route and will return next week as i could not fully understand how his system works i know that it was capable of powering merchant vessels however it did not sail as such many thanks denis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 9:01 AM Subject: [origamiboats] wild thing as the idea of the steel cat pops up from time to time, here is a link to a really big one, being build in Germany: http://www.der- katamaran.com/, 20 meters by 13, flettner rotor and a lot of other wild stuff good for lengthy discussions ;-) Enjoy Gerd http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4634|4634|2004-07-18 01:18:19|ben_azo|Denis the Menace in a Warzone ?????|Dear Dennis , when I was younger there was a show on TV called " Denis the menace " ; seems to me we have our own little show here . Are you not bussy compiling a revolutionary catconcept ?? You could launch her easely from a light sloop . Some people are able to make stones fight . Please Dennis dont fuel fires . The Topic is Boats , and whe should avoid Fires on Boats. I can be a pain in the ass from time to time , but I think many in here and sure I am , are totaly disinterested in your last post . Please stay with the Topic , I sure look forward to see your brilliant ideas evolve in some preliminary we could enjoy (consider my sarcasm as a mild form of humor) Old uncle Ben| 4635|22|2004-07-18 05:20:29|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /OrigamiTrolleryacht/TYM1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : Artica39 TantonYM / http://www.tantonyachts.com/ You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/OrigamiTrolleryacht/TYM1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4636|22|2004-07-18 05:22:34|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /OrigamiTrolleryacht/Pazapa1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : pocket longrange motorcruiser You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/OrigamiTrolleryacht/Pazapa1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4637|4634|2004-07-18 05:47:43|Gerd|Re: Denis the Menace in a Warzone ?????|Ben, if I may say so, it is bad practice to clobber up our file area with files that already exist elsewhere on the net - in that case a link is quite enough - quite apart from the fact that you there may be copyright issues. Gerd| 4638|4638|2004-07-18 05:48:19|ben_azo|Some new pics in Photos|Hi webmaster I just uploaded some pics in the album " Ben's Stuff " in Photos , 2 new files in in the " Origami Troller " album in Files and 1 file " Otter or a transformed Cormorant " Please feel free to remove them , or lust leave them there a short while so some can have a peak , post a comment and then they can be deleted cause space is at a premium here , and I dont want to take up space if nobody has an interest . regards from Belgium Old uncle Ben| 4639|4638|2004-07-18 05:50:49|Gerd|Re: Some new pics in Photos|... and there is also no "wqebmaster" here, what you do is ask somebody else to clean up after you ;-) --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi webmaster I just uploaded some pics in the album > " Ben's Stuff " in Photos , 2 new files in in the " Origami Troller "| 4640|4634|2004-07-18 06:22:45|ben_azo|Taking up space // Posts crossings .|Hi Gerd , your post must have been seconds faster than mine:-) feel free to remove all I posted , sory to say but I receive a lot of private mail , I respond and I always ask to bring the discussion back to the Group . Sory to say I am a bad judge about good or bad practice on the net ,feel free to teach me ,but if you go over the posts you will see some are asking for larger and more pics . One can easely make a screen dump and enlarge the pic , you know but not all know . I never had any complaint in all my life about copywright , cause I always give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar ;-) and none ever complained about indirect publicity receven by a pic , link or published screendump. A solution could be to make an overflow area such as a new Group number 2 just for files and pics. I must say I am always happy when I see things I posted years ago still being in those Groups ,even if I stopped to post in some groups . Cause believe me ; I only post in a Group when I feel welcome and appreciated , the world is to wide and beautifull for a retired old shipwright , LOL , even just to try to change anything . I just came in here cause I like your project , thats all. Also members in here sure will testify , I only ask for a small donation to a Senegalese Charity when they ask me to do work , cause I am realy retired and my business is sold . I think redirecting people to other sites and asking them to become a member just to lurk at a pic or file would be uncourteous to the owner of this group , so I prefer him to take the decision to delete whatever he pleases whenever he wants to ,cause that's owner's privilege we all have to respect ; I sure hope you can agree. Let me know what you think , I look forward to that. regards from Belgium Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Ben, if I may say so, it is bad practice to clobber up our file area > with files that already exist elsewhere on the net - in that case a > link is quite enough - quite apart from the fact that you there may > be copyright issues. > Gerd | 4641|4638|2004-07-18 06:35:55|ben_azo|Re: Some new pics in Photos|Hi Gerd , you are realy fast , again I got your thoughts and post before I even ask for what you'r thinking. Thanks for your frank answer , its a real eye-opener and I sure dont want anybody to clean up what I posted . So be very happy , I will stop posting from now on until asked to post or give any opinion or suggestion,cause I am not here to win any argument at all. I realy wish you succes with your project,and will continue to lurk with great interest. Old uncle Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > ... and there is also no "wqebmaster" here, what you do is ask > somebody else to clean up after you ;-) --- In > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Hi webmaster I just uploaded some pics in the album > > " Ben's Stuff " in Photos , 2 new files in in the " Origami > Troller " | 4642|4638|2004-07-18 07:43:27|Gerd|Re: Some new pics in Photos|No hard feelings, Ben, it's just that the internet is build that way, no need to duplicate redundant stuff when it's just as easy to link to pages and files on other peoples sites, where then they will then appear in proper context. And as I said, not everybody might be happy if you copy his files for publishing here. As to the boats you post, I believe Tanton's Troller yachts are not designed as Origami Trollers, as far as I can see they are hard- chine hulls, but could probably be converted if the designer agrees. Have you done any Origami conversions yet? Puck in particular, very nice little boat that, but that might be quite difficult to build in any metal with the S-Section. Is there a chine version? Is that the same as the Puck listed on Jean Pierre Brouns site http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jean-pierre.brouns/bateauxcom.htm as discontinued? Gerd The YAGO POroject at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4643|4618|2004-07-18 08:39:27|Ben Tucker|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|Hi Older Ben (sounds better than Old ben) I have been playing with CMAPS, Maxsea and Endeavour Navigator, and to be honest I like them all equally, finding that all you really need is the chart with real time positioning. I Reallise this is pretty much off the topic of origami boats but think of it as a Preventative way to help stop those skegs dropping of in the surf Cmaps saved our bacon around Flinders Island one night when the wind did a 180 degree shift at 0100 (30 kn wly to 30 kn easterly) the holding is appaling and there are strong tides and lots of nasty rocks. Cmaps on the Chart table (viewed from the cockpit) really helped us out big time (plus already having the dingy lashed down, 2 reefs in the main and a GPS anchor drag alarm). I hate to say it, but this seems to be the future of navigation, the Art into a Science (you can't get away from Square eyes), But First some warnings (Im a lecturer remember! Also don't want you to suddenly stop getting older). 1 make sure you can do it the old way just in case, and apply that uncommon common sense. Transfer Bearings onto the Electronic Chart as a good Double check, and also compare Depths marked and depths real, be suspicious, Use landmarks, Bouys and Transits to comfirm what the box is telling you is right. 2 Datums are what will stuff you up most outside the more travelled areas, never trust the Computer until the datum has been confirmed to be OK. I have seen 300m shifts around stewart Island in southern NZ, (Adventure bay on CMAP, you can actually see the charted discontinuity). 3 Check GPS is On WGS 84 (WGS 84 to tokyo datum has around 1200m shift down in Aus) Unless the chart specifies something else. This is a pain when your paper chart is on a differnt datum from you electronic chart (best to use another gps for the paper chart in this situation because Manually applying datum shifts is not easy under pressure). 4 Leave some sort of trail on(preferably logged with time)because this will give you a good idea of the continuity of fixes, I have seen huge temporary jumps of around 800m or so shown on the trail (multipath or DOP spikes?), I could tell at a glance the GPS was wrong by the Trail (maxsea has a nice coloured trail that relates to speed, CMAPS plots With a time). 5 Be aware of what alarms will sound if the GPS plays up, Put a pot over the ariel to check Any DOP alarm, pull out the NMEA plug and Switch Off the GPS, These should all sound very loud alarm bells on the plotter (or a lovely Female Voice on Endeavour saying "GPS failure"), if not BEWARE!! Also Turn Any DR facility off (and set DR CRS and Speed To Zero on the GPS) so that if the GPS switches to DR mode the plotter will freeze. What happens If Your Differencal or WAAS drops out? 6 Keep an eye on the Satellite geometry-2d/3d/DR & DOP (garmin EPE) when in tight spots. Set Signal to Noise Ratio masks to around 6-8db for at sea use and elevation masks to 5-10 (pref 10) degrees to reduce multipathing and Atmospheric effects. 7 CMAPs is easy to sort so that You can upload your Waypoints into the GPS, Haven't Worked out how to do this in Maxsea yet (maybe you can tell Me?) as the Route files are Not ASCII, just Gobbly gook. This means you can switch off the computer to save power and still have the route to follow. 8 Be aware most Cheapy GPSs (ie Garmin) work in Great circle not Rhumb line so any Easting or Westing will Curve to the South here and North in your hemesphere By an amount depending on how long the leg is, your crs, and your latitude. It means that the route shown on your Plotter and Paper chart will not match exactly the route shown on your GPS (Only really noticable on long legs). Best to Break long legs into many shorter Legs, with the breaks ajacent to any dangers. 9 The time you really need it it will be dark, and rough so make sure the computer won't fall off in a big wave and the screensaver is off and you know how to set night mode easily. 10 some TV Antennas with play havoc with GPS recievers http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/moa/docs/11-02.htm Thats all I can think of for now, but sure theres lots more about using Electronic charts so if anybody has anything to Add please Email me or post here, I always need new stuff as theres not alot written about them yet. for a great EBook on gps see http://www.smallboatgps.com/ As Far as cheap stuff All I can say is talk to the right people (ie long distance cruisers)you might be pleasantly suprised! NOAA make there ENC's availible free and LINZ in New Zealand have there Geotiffs free. If you look on the Yahoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ They might have some free chart veiwers to use with these and other sources of Echarts. Also WX faxes on the computer are excellant, but probably not needed with navtex (none down here), It was great to have WX fax on the last tasman crossing (until My Brother dropped it!) Try JV comm. A cheap plug in keyboard with a plasic keycover will keep the laptop keyboard safe from wet fingers. I Enjoyed the photos of Otter, She looks alot nicer than the standard Cormerant design, Have tried to design an origami Alcyone but found It didn't really fold nicely, the chines are in the wrong places and the bows to bluff. I Like the META Strongall concept, but very expensive for all the Alloy. I Hear they used to Tig them using strips cut from the parent material? Have a guy down our way thats just had META build him a new 60 footer (Antartica) He still swears by the Zinc rich paint on the Bottom and no antifouling (just scrubbs her every 3 months). Cheers Ben Ps I don't envy you guys in the English channel, that place used to scare the crap out of me when I was Navigating Box boats, and we had ARPAs and all the fancy stuff to help us dodge all the other ships (mind you we also had a 12 meter draft, 21 knots and 1.4 NM Turning circle, with no Stop engines easily availible). Even At these speeds the tides off Alderney used to effect us pretty badly when trying to make an ETA for the Cherbourg pilot.| 4644|4618|2004-07-18 09:16:00|Gerd|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|Ben & Ben, Computers on boats: there is an interesting subject, and some room for scrounging. Notebooks are very bad investment, even if they seem to get cheaper by the hour, as the real problem is that they age much faster than a desktop machine, are expensive to upgrade or extend and difficult to repair from standard parts. I am looking into this new generation of "barebones" PCs, that are making their way into the living rooms these days. Some of them are small flat, others more cube-shaped. They will usually contain all you need, including a DVD and CD RW combo, plus firewire, usb and all the stuff. A simple standard box would also do. Only thing to solve is powersupply in the most energy-efficiant way - anybody has any good ides on that? Advantages: - repair or replace parts everywhere, or if not repairable replace cheap - big, cheap harddisks, buy a second one and clone the disk regularly for backup, can be switched in minutes. - Place safely out of way of spray and splatter instead of on top of chart table, as long as properly ventilated - get proper keyboard & mouse. When damaged or wet, throw away and buy new cheap, have cheap spare ready. - Fix TFT to bulkhead, keyboard pull out in drawer and save workspace on table - copy CDs, play DVD movies, exchange with others - add TV/Sat decoder card if you want, to be used in port - get a real big TFT, on bulkhead, can be moved to living area for TV and movies - Store thousands of e-books at zero weight, for example the more than 10.000 public domain books on the Gutenberg Project http://www.gutenberg.org/ - Store hundreds of hours of MP3 and connect line out to sound system - Store movies on CD or DVD - Edit your own movies and pictures, burn to CD and send home to family - etc... and of course run nav and chart software When notebooks where more expensive than now, I had to travel a lot and worked in different contries. I had a standard mini tower box, with a suitcase handle simply screwed on top, and wherever I came I just borrowed monitor and keyboard ;-) Gerd the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4645|4618|2004-07-18 09:55:38|Robert Gainer|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|What do you mean, �age much faster�. Is this to say that they wear out sooner or do they become obsolete faster? When I chose a laptop I select it to do what I need and don�t plan on upgrading it. Its not that they are hard to repair, they are impossible to repair. When the laptop is off warranty it is a throwaway. I expect it to last three years and then be replaced by the next one. Because I have two there is on overlap in the purchase cycle so I have a new one every 18 months. My two laptops (IBM A-31) have an ultrabay 2000 expansion bay and I can run anything that a desktop can run. I have interchangeable hard drives to run Windows and Unix as the need arises. I have second drives in the removable bay to store or transfer from one to the other. I have PCMCIA cards for SCSI. I have a data collection system with A to D converters to read the strain gauges on the boat, I get satellite TV, DVD and VCR to play just fine. You can put the laptop in a waterproof storage place and connect the external LCD with a keyboard and mouse. The power supply is no problem, its 12-volt on my laptops. I run Maxsurf and AutoCad on the 15-inch screen and when I go into the office I can connect to a larger LCD for the cad work. Of course, all of my work travels with me and I can work on any project at any time. I have retired all of my computers including my 19-inch rack except the IBM laptops. I use them as my main computer in place of any desktop. For a boat how can you consider any thing else? Robert Gainer >From: "Gerd" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs >Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:15:56 -0000 > >Ben & Ben, Computers on boats: there is an interesting subject, and >some room for scrounging. > >Notebooks are very bad investment, even if they seem to get cheaper >by the hour, as the real problem is that they age much faster than a >desktop machine, are expensive to upgrade or extend and difficult to >repair from standard parts. > >I am looking into this new generation of "barebones" PCs, that are >making their way into the living rooms these days. Some of them are >small flat, others more cube-shaped. They will usually contain all >you need, including a DVD and CD RW combo, plus firewire, usb and >all the stuff. A simple standard box would also do. Only thing to >solve is powersupply in the most energy-efficiant way - anybody has >any good ides on that? > >Advantages: >- repair or replace parts everywhere, or if not repairable replace >cheap >- big, cheap harddisks, buy a second one and clone the disk >regularly for backup, can be switched in minutes. >- Place safely out of way of spray and splatter instead of on top of >chart table, as long as properly ventilated >- get proper keyboard & mouse. When damaged or wet, throw away and >buy new cheap, have cheap spare ready. >- Fix TFT to bulkhead, keyboard pull out in drawer and save >workspace on table >- copy CDs, play DVD movies, exchange with others >- add TV/Sat decoder card if you want, to be used in port >- get a real big TFT, on bulkhead, can be moved to living area for >TV and movies >- Store thousands of e-books at zero weight, for example the more >than 10.000 public domain books on the Gutenberg Project >http://www.gutenberg.org/ >- Store hundreds of hours of MP3 and connect line out to sound system >- Store movies on CD or DVD >- Edit your own movies and pictures, burn to CD and send home to >family >- etc... and of course run nav and chart software > >When notebooks where more expensive than now, I had to travel a lot >and worked in different contries. I had a standard mini tower box, >with a suitcase handle simply screwed on top, and wherever I came I >just borrowed monitor and keyboard ;-) > >Gerd >the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/| 4646|4618|2004-07-18 10:29:50|Brent Geery|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:15:56 -0000, "Gerd" wrote: > Ben & Ben, Computers on boats: there is an interesting subject, and > some room for scrounging. > > Notebooks are very bad investment, even if they seem to get cheaper > by the hour, as the real problem is that they age much faster than a > desktop machine, are expensive to upgrade or extend and difficult to > repair from standard parts. Actually, laptops are becoming more and more generic every-day. That's part of the reason the prices are coming down. Remember th days that you had to buy memory and drives from the laptop maker? > I am looking into this new generation of "barebones" PCs, that are > making their way into the living rooms these days. Some of them are > small flat, others more cube-shaped. They will usually contain all > you need, including a DVD and CD RW combo, plus firewire, usb and > all the stuff. A simple standard box would also do. Only thing to > solve is powersupply in the most energy-efficiant way - anybody has > any good ides on that? These still use way more power than a laptop. At least three times as much, and sometimes much more. Mostly, this extra power consumption is caused by having to us a desktop LCD monitor, which alone, use as much power as an entire laptop! This is mainly due to the fact that the desktop LCD monitors have much more powerful and energy consuming back-lighting. > Advantages: > - repair or replace parts everywhere, or if not repairable replace > cheap Nothing in a PC is "repairable", as a matter of practicality. It's all replacing. > - big, cheap harddisks, buy a second one and clone the disk > regularly for backup, can be switched in minutes. These also consume about 4x the power of laptop drives and don't enjoy the shock loads laptop drives shrug off. > - Place safely out of way of spray and splatter instead of on top of > chart table, as long as properly ventilated You can do this with a laptop, by enclosing it in a waterproof enclosure that still lets you see the screen (built of lexan maybe,) and use an external mouse and keyboard. > - get proper keyboard & mouse. When damaged or wet, throw away and > buy new cheap, have cheap spare ready. see above. > - Fix TFT to bulkhead, keyboard pull out in drawer and save > workspace on table see above. [...snip... everything laptop can also do.] > When notebooks where more expensive than now, I had to travel a lot > and worked in different contries. I had a standard mini tower box, > with a suitcase handle simply screwed on top, and wherever I came I > just borrowed monitor and keyboard ;-) I'd be concerned with power usage. Generating power on a boat is *very* expensive. Besides, a complete mini-PC system is not cheap at all (costs as much as any lower-end laptop) and has very limited expansion capability (one or two PCI slots) beyond what a laptop can upgrade. The mini-PC systems are also slower than most, if not all, of the laptops out there (even the low-end). Finally, the portability of the laptop has real advantage at times. You have the right idea, in wanting the maximize the utility of the PC on board your boat. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4647|4618|2004-07-18 10:42:51|Gerd|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|Hi Robert - yes, I meant faster obsolete, but also things like screwed up keyboards, touchpads, sockets and ports. Having two at 18 months interval, plus the monitor on the boat does make it a bit more costly though - unless you have them anyway. Notebooks by now are down to the price of a desktop plus good TFT. The difference is that I can very well have a TFT longer, change and upgrade parts easily in a box. I am using at this moment two desktops at home, plus a tablet-pc notebook that travels with me all the time (very light) and that I connect to my monitor and keyboard in the office. The advantage of the adapted desktop would be that it is out of the way - sure you can do the same thing with a notebook that you have anyway, but if it's the only one you get you would have more power and easier maintenance with a box. But, the way things are going, notebooks may well become the cheaper alternative soon. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > What do you mean, "age much faster". Is this to say that they wear out > sooner or do they become obsolete faster? When I chose a laptop I select it > to do what I need and don't plan on upgrading it. Its not that they are hard > to repair, they are impossible to repair. When the laptop is off warranty it > is a throwaway. I expect it to last three years and then be replaced by the > next one. Because I have two there is on overlap in the purchase cycle so I > have a new one every 18 months. My two laptops (IBM A-31) have an ultrabay > 2000 expansion bay and I can run anything that a desktop can run. I have > interchangeable hard drives to run Windows and Unix as the need arises. I > have second drives in the removable bay to store or transfer from one to the > other. I have PCMCIA cards for SCSI. I have a data collection system with A > to D converters to read the strain gauges on the boat, I get satellite TV, > DVD and VCR to play just fine. You can put the laptop in a waterproof > storage place and connect the external LCD with a keyboard and mouse. The > power supply is no problem, its 12-volt on my laptops. I run Maxsurf and > AutoCad on the 15-inch screen and when I go into the office I can connect to > a larger LCD for the cad work. Of course, all of my work travels with me and > I can work on any project at any time. I have retired all of my computers > including my 19-inch rack except the IBM laptops. I use them as my main > computer in place of any desktop. For a boat how can you consider any thing > else? > Robert Gainer > > > > >From: "Gerd" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs > >Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:15:56 -0000 > > > >Ben & Ben, Computers on boats: there is an interesting subject, and > >some room for scrounging. > > > >Notebooks are very bad investment, even if they seem to get cheaper > >by the hour, as the real problem is that they age much faster than a > >desktop machine, are expensive to upgrade or extend and difficult to > >repair from standard parts. > > > >I am looking into this new generation of "barebones" PCs, that are > >making their way into the living rooms these days. Some of them are > >small flat, others more cube-shaped. They will usually contain all > >you need, including a DVD and CD RW combo, plus firewire, usb and > >all the stuff. A simple standard box would also do. Only thing to > >solve is powersupply in the most energy-efficiant way - anybody has > >any good ides on that? > > > >Advantages: > >- repair or replace parts everywhere, or if not repairable replace > >cheap > >- big, cheap harddisks, buy a second one and clone the disk > >regularly for backup, can be switched in minutes. > >- Place safely out of way of spray and splatter instead of on top of > >chart table, as long as properly ventilated > >- get proper keyboard & mouse. When damaged or wet, throw away and > >buy new cheap, have cheap spare ready. > >- Fix TFT to bulkhead, keyboard pull out in drawer and save > >workspace on table > >- copy CDs, play DVD movies, exchange with others > >- add TV/Sat decoder card if you want, to be used in port > >- get a real big TFT, on bulkhead, can be moved to living area for > >TV and movies > >- Store thousands of e-books at zero weight, for example the more > >than 10.000 public domain books on the Gutenberg Project > >http://www.gutenberg.org/ > >- Store hundreds of hours of MP3 and connect line out to sound system > >- Store movies on CD or DVD > >- Edit your own movies and pictures, burn to CD and send home to > >family > >- etc... and of course run nav and chart software > > > >When notebooks where more expensive than now, I had to travel a lot > >and worked in different contries. I had a standard mini tower box, > >with a suitcase handle simply screwed on top, and wherever I came I > >just borrowed monitor and keyboard ;-) > > > >Gerd > >the YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Discover the best of the best at MSN Luxury Living. http://lexus.msn.com/| 4648|4618|2004-07-18 11:32:23|Gerd|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|Brent - sure, power is a problem, but costwise it's still to the advantage of the box, even carry a spare motherboard if it's too specific. Carry a spare everything in sealed boxes if you want, Statistcally that will last you a lot longer than 2 notebooks. Imagine yourself stuck at the end of nowhere, having to wait for repairs. We supply terminals for our customers, in flat mini desktops, costs about 300 US with P4 and all the trimmings (ex monitor), no moving parts apart from the HD. But the power... still needs some checking out. Gerd| 4649|4618|2004-07-18 11:50:16|Brent Geery|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:32:16 -0000, "Gerd" wrote: > Brent - sure, power is a problem, but costwise it's still to the > advantage of the box, even carry a spare motherboard if it's too > specific. Carry a spare everything in sealed boxes if you want, > Statistcally that will last you a lot longer than 2 notebooks. > Imagine yourself stuck at the end of nowhere, having to wait for > repairs. > We supply terminals for our customers, in flat mini desktops, costs > about 300 US with P4 and all the trimmings (ex monitor), no moving > parts apart from the HD. > But the power... still needs some checking out. > Gerd The main problem is the power consumption of the external LCD monitors. These things eat way more power than their laptop counterparts. If there were more energy efficient models out there, that would really help the situation. Also, stick with laptop HDs/floppy/DVD/CD drives. These are all generic parts now, almost as easy to find as the desktop equivalents, and are much more energy efficient. That leaves the CPU power consumption, and the power supply. I think all the modern CPUs can now be throttled back to save energy via software. For example, I use "SpeedSwitchXP" to manually lock my laptop at 600MHz. This really saves the juice. The Pent's have similar utilities. I'm not sure what to recommend regarding the power supply. There are 12V DC PC power supplies around, but that does not guarantee they are any more efficient then the AC variety. Anyway, something to think about. I like the mini-desktop system also, but just didn't think they were worth the extra power draw. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4650|4618|2004-07-18 12:07:27|Michael Casling|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|The 95 Compaq that I have has been the most reliable of all the computers. I got it when the regular 95 model fried the hard drive and it did cost too much. I travelled with it at least once per week for many years. Now I use it as a place to store the back up imformation from the regular computer. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerd To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 6:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs Ben & Ben, Computers on boats: there is an interesting subject, and some room for scrounging. Notebooks are very bad investment, even if they seem to get cheaper by the hour, as the real problem is that they age much faster than a desktop machine, are expensive to upgrade or extend and difficult to repair from standard parts. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4651|4651|2004-07-18 12:52:10|ben_azo|Laptops & Otter|Hi young Ben , I could not resist to post a new Pic in Photos with a neat Panasonic Toughbook CF-27 installation just to show you the nice teak dockingstation I made . I cant say much more than that the militarised CF-27 is a great notebook , you can use 12 volt , you can drop the thing , even a car can drive over it , you can spill coffee , beer , wine or whatever on the keyboard , use it in the sun and in the rain Secondhand bargains start at 200 $ , I bought many for use in Africa and I am happy , cause I use it for navigation and sinds I am leasy it takes care of the autopilot to. I am no computerexpert , and all works fine even the reception of the Grib-files with the weather-data wich MaxSea transforms into great routing proposals . In the pic you see the chart near the Panasonic CF-27 and thats how it should be . Young Ben ,I hope you had the chance to visit Chausey , near Alderney , a French little island that gives you a real Sechelles impression . I dont want to be naughty or I would post the pic of my favorite Sechelles coco-nut called Coco-fesse but if you insist I will send it privately ;-) Nice you like Otter , she is realy a much better performer than her lines may sugest , and sure a great idea for anyone wanting a cheap thick aluminum boat . I agree Meta is expensive , its there salespolicy and anybody is free to bye there or not ; on the other hand using thicker alu to build a boat sure cant be patented . If I had to build a thick aluminum boat , wich is rather low-tech and easy I sure would order the precut panels and assemble them in an external mould as with the VandeStadt system , and I would hire a specialised welder for the short time to weld all together ,cause that system is realy easy and fast. Personaly I think Meta boats are heavy , but you cant have it all. I have build small fishingboats in thick aluminum along the lines of the Simons Seaskiff and it was easy to build and strong enough to resist to the twice a day beaching by sliding proces. We needed no special tooling at all . Fine workboats , but again thats out of topic ,or do some appreciate workboat toughness ? Just wondering . Please download the Otterfile if you like it ,they could like it in the fine link to Cormorant and Alcyone I found on your website ; I am gone delete it soon as I did with all the rest , question of usefull space ;-) Old uncle Ben| 4652|4652|2004-07-18 13:13:47|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Greg knocking Brent|I second everything that has been said in the attempt to put Greg's comments into perspective regarding Brent's work. I also believe that in general most people can see pretty clearly through Gregs slanderous seemly technobabble. I havent gone through the archives but just reading over the last several weeks it seems Gregs biggest sales attempt has been to knock the 'competition'. Gregs "qualifications may be a matter of public record" which we have been repeatedly reminded of leads me to a nunber ofr questions 1. if you are so vastly superiour, where are all your followers? 2. I wonder how the boat you designed (and built?) with the twin rudders with no skegs would have fared in the same situation that Mungo endured? And if you are so serious about strength and sustainability of a vessell in any and all situations and were not directly responsible for this vessell, why on earth woudld you put your name to it? 3. other than produce proven superior designs and (through his silence) confirmed both his conviction and class, what is it about Brent that makes you work so hard to "prove" him wrong? envy? 4. No doubt you are a man of talent, but don't you think that perhaps Brent deserves an appology? As the way it stands, I consider your postings on par with those regarding islam Finally, no doubt you have talent, experience and much knowledge regarding sailing vessels and much to add to this site. As a result, to me at least, are worthy of respect, However, respect, as most things in life is earned, can be lost, and for that matter can be earned back......... ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4653|22|2004-07-18 14:13:21|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Checklists.xls Uploaded by : robertgainer Description : The start of a checklist. You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Checklists.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, robertgainer | 4654|4634|2004-07-18 22:40:40|Mike|Re: Taking up space // Posts crossings .|I don't get it. What's wrong with the photos? Since when did you start moderating the group, Gerd? Mike > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" > wrote: > > Ben, if I may say so, it is bad practice to clobber up our file area > > with files that already exist elsewhere on the net - in that case a > > link is quite enough - quite apart from the fact that you there > may > > be copyright issues. > > Gerd | 4655|4652|2004-07-18 23:58:21|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: Greg knocking Brent|Anyone that sells a product assumes a responsibility. Thus, publishers make corrections, and manufacturers repair products out of warranty. Study the implications of the emails on attachment strength. Of the advise offered Brent, I believe mine was as sound as any. In offline on holiday. In the meantime, I have a topic suggestion. Weld geometry and stress risers. Greg Elliott Origami Magic http://www.origamimagic.com 1.604.987.0050 ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHANE ROTHWELL" To: Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 10:13 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg knocking Brent > I second everything that has been said in the attempt > to put Greg's comments into perspective regarding > Brent's work. I also believe that in general most > people can see pretty clearly through Gregs slanderous > seemly technobabble. > > I havent gone through the archives but just reading > over the last several weeks it seems Gregs biggest > sales attempt has been to knock the 'competition'. > Gregs "qualifications may be a matter of public > record" which we have been repeatedly reminded of > leads me to a nunber ofr questions > 1. if you are so vastly superiour, where are all your > followers? > 2. I wonder how the boat you designed (and built?) > with the twin rudders with no skegs would have fared > in the same situation that Mungo endured? And if you > are so serious about strength and sustainability of a > vessell in any and all situations and were not > directly responsible for this vessell, why on earth > woudld you put your name to it? > 3. other than produce proven superior designs and > (through his silence) confirmed both his conviction > and class, what is it about Brent that makes you work > so hard to "prove" him wrong? envy? > 4. No doubt you are a man of talent, but don't you > think that perhaps Brent deserves an appology? As the > way it stands, I consider your postings on par with > those regarding islam > > Finally, no doubt you have talent, experience and much > knowledge regarding sailing vessels and much to add to > this site. As a result, to me at least, are worthy of > respect, However, respect, as most things in life is > earned, can be lost, and for that matter can be earned back......... > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4656|4634|2004-07-19 01:34:38|Gerd|Re: Taking up space // Posts crossings .|HI Mike - I am not and certainly would not want to give the imression I did ;-) It's jut good practice to keep things efficient. Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > I don't get it. What's wrong with the photos? Since when did you > start moderating the group, Gerd? > Mike | 4657|4652|2004-07-19 01:43:15|Brent Geery|Re: Greg knocking Brent|Issuing homework now, Greg? -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4658|4652|2004-07-19 02:27:40|Henri Naths|Re: Greg knocking Brent|Greg knocking Brent? Taking up space? This is more than a little boring, More like obsessive. We should try to keep moving in a forward direction and keep the regressive, obsessive, compulsive behavior for your own personal head space or where ever you go to fight your pissing battles. sincerely, Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Brent Geery To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 18 July, 2004 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg knocking Brent Issuing homework now, Greg? -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4659|4618|2004-07-19 02:37:10|jim dorey|Re: For young Ben . Navigation programs|On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:15:56 -0000, Gerd wrote: > I am looking into this new generation of "barebones" PCs, that are > making their way into the living rooms these days. Some of them are > small flat, others more cube-shaped. They will usually contain all > you need, including a DVD and CD RW combo, plus firewire, usb and > all the stuff. A simple standard box would also do. Only thing to > solve is powersupply in the most energy-efficiant way - anybody has > any good ides on that? if you have a small windmill that can produce about a hundred watts, and a battery, you can have yourself a real nifty computer set up that can run windows/linux with no problem. navigation packages for both os's exist. the reason i'd use linux is the easier setup with mono graphic/text lcd's, they are tons cheper than laptop or desktop lcd's, they use way less power, and they're simple to set up and use, connect 'em to a serial port and a dc power source. http://www.mini-box.com/ has some dc/dc converters designed to work specifically with the epia type motherboards. for a boat with power i'd select their car kit (http://store.mini-box.com/ituner/carkit.html) and disable the onboard vga to release some resources(you wouldn't need it if you used a serial connected display). all you need to add is ram, a box(watertight maybe), a monochrome graphic lcd, and a laptop size hard drive. all told you could get a decent portable system for a little less than 500US. there are other options that have more interesting add-ons, like pc/104 modules, i've seen them with gps receivers, the modules just stack one on top of the other. one thing about the barebones, they are regular pc's, they use a lot of power and produce a lot of heat. meaning that you'll need a larger deep cycle battery if you want to run it when you're on sail only. for an air cooled pc the box can't be sealed, air needs to move through the case to keep it from dying of heat stroke. there is a way to cool a pc in a sealed box, water cooling, it's gotten relatively cheap, but for a sealed box you'd need to also cool the hard disks, more components and a more complex system. with a fanless epia system you would need to buy or build a metal box if you want it sealed, the air in the box would be enough to transfer the small amount of heat to the box and safely away. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 4660|4660|2004-07-19 02:55:11|De Clarke|small computers for boats|Small computer for boats: I had looked with some interest at the Espresso http://www.sterlingxs.co.uk/scpages/espressominicomputer.html (available in the US also). it is not quite cheap enough to be "disposable" but the form factor is good. the Tiqit also has potential. the only laptops I have known that really seem strong and robust are the old IBM thinkpads with metal case. we have one at work that has been through many airports, from sealevel to 14K ft, from hot to freezing, over about 6 years of hard use, and still works. it is old and has a slow CPU and doesn't like to boot until it has warmed up a bit, but it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. can't say the same for any other brand (or model) we have used. sure wish HUDs w/decent resolution would come down in price. de -- ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 4661|4660|2004-07-19 04:29:09|Ben Tucker|Re: small computers for boats|Hi Guys This Expresso looks good, Have just been through a few of the options availible here, and we ended up getting a laptop as all the mini computers seemed hard to get and suprisingly expensive compared to the laptops (I had Planned to get the Motherboard of the mini sprayed with a waterproofer). we ended up getting a no name brand laptop from a major chain store but paying extra for the 3 year waranty, hopefully this will not be needed but at least it will insure that the thing will last at least that long (The ex missus now has this so I have to work out what to do for a computer when I lose the work laptop) Another option is to get a cheap secondhand laptop that can run the basic software, a simple 166mhz with cd rom will run Cmaps and WX fax Fine and only costs $300 or so, it doesn't break your heart when the thing falls of the chart table, or that rouge wave splashes onto it, You can have whatever flash thing you like as main computer, stored in a watertight bag at sea but your Nav computer is a cheap tough old Toshiba or something like Older ben uses. In fact we used a 286 toshiba in dos mode for a WX fax, cost us $20 built a modulator and plugged it into a all band reciever ($300). total cost for WX fax $330, plus the radio will pick up all voice forecasts so you only need an old crystal HF transmiter for $200 and you Have all your Transocean communications sorted out for $550. (if you can find a cheap Sythesized) Ham set even better but you normaly need A proper marine set to shown the radio inspector for your call sign) Also I figure your better off having most of your Data stored on CD's or DVD's as there much less effected by vibration or water than a hard drive? Cheers Ben| 4662|4652|2004-07-19 04:59:40|Ben Tucker|Re: Greg knocking Brent|Hi Guys An Interesting post by Brent two and a half years ago regarding strengthening Skegs. See below for the source http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php? t=53&sid=249075ce127fe5e927410ba5b01d7f27 (you might need to join up? but worth it anyway as they have some good stuff) "Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:31 pm Post subject: You can always build the equivalent of a skeg extension onto the inside of the hull. When you weld the skeg plate to the hull plate a ridge forms on the inside of the hull plate which clearly shows the position of the skeg plate on the hull. If you weld an extension of this plate onto the inside of the hull with strong welds on both sides of the plate, then weld the skeg to the hull with extra passes , the structural effect should be the equivalent of having run the skeg right through the hull in the first place , as long as the welds are as strong as or stronger than the skeg plate. This extension can then be fully welded to any transverse webs inside the hull. Putting a long gusset from the front of the skeg to the hull can greatly increase the resistance to any head on impacts on the skeg such as when it hits a floating object head on. This gusset can extend a couple of feet along the hull and well down onto the skeg. Making it hollow , and as wide as or wider than the skeg will help it give the skeg a bit more lateral strength . Brent Swain" Cheers Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Anyone that sells a product assumes a responsibility. Thus, publishers make > corrections, and manufacturers repair products out of warranty. Study the > implications of the emails on attachment strength. Of the advise offered > Brent, I believe mine was as sound as any. > > In offline on holiday. In the meantime, I have a topic suggestion. Weld > geometry and stress risers. > > Greg Elliott > Origami Magic > http://www.origamimagic.com > 1.604.987.0050 > > > | 4663|4634|2004-07-19 05:44:42|Bill Jaine|General|For goodness sake stop squabbling, it dilutes the really interesting messages in this group Bill Port Hope. Canada --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 16/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 16/07/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4664|4634|2004-07-19 06:37:31|Graeme|Re: General|Bill sounds good to me A friggin men -----Original Message----- From: Bill Jaine [mailto:anacapa@...] Sent: Monday, 19 July 2004 5:42 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] General For goodness sake stop squabbling, it dilutes the really interesting messages in this group Bill Port Hope. Canada --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 16/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 16/07/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4665|4665|2004-07-19 07:37:03|Glenn Cramond|Boating tips and tricks|Came across this web site looking for welding information. They have a welders manual there that is quite good. The tips and tricks menu is quite extensive and you may be interested in taking a look http://mckaymarine.com.au/Boat_%20Repairs_%20Tips.htm Glenn www.metalbashatorium.com| 4666|4660|2004-07-19 07:51:09|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: small computers for boats|I have talked to two different couples that do extensive traveling and live aboard. Both reported that computers only last one year before the need to be replaced. The second couple had replaced three fried laptops with a conventional tower type computer and had been running it for 11 months. The first couple had given up on onboard computers and were using Internet cafe's. Anyone have similar experience? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > Small computer for boats: > > I had looked with some interest at the Espresso > > http://www.sterlingxs.co.uk/scpages/espressominicomputer.html > > (available in the US also). > > it is not quite cheap enough to be "disposable" but the form > factor is good. > > the Tiqit also has potential. > > the only laptops I have known that really seem strong and robust > are the old IBM thinkpads with metal case. we have one at work that > has been through many airports, from sealevel to 14K ft, from hot > to freezing, over about 6 years of hard use, and still works. it > is old and has a slow CPU and doesn't like to boot until it has > warmed up a bit, but it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. can't > say the same for any other brand (or model) we have used. > > sure wish HUDs w/decent resolution would come down in price. > > de > > -- > ............................................................................. > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: | 4667|4660|2004-07-19 08:09:57|Bill Jaine|Re: small computers for boats|Friends who are traveling use �Pocket Mail�, very limited text messaging system but easy to use. Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Niffenegger [mailto:niffeneggerniff@...] Sent: 19-Jul-04 7:50 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: small computers for boats I have talked to two different couples that do extensive traveling and live aboard. Both reported that computers only last one year before the need to be replaced. The second couple had replaced three fried laptops with a conventional tower type computer and had been running it for 11 months. The first couple had given up on onboard computers and were using Internet cafe's. Anyone have similar experience? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > Small computer for boats: > > I had looked with some interest at the Espresso > > HYPERLINK "http://www.sterlingxs.co.uk/scpages/espressominicomputer.html"http://ww w.sterlingxs.co.uk/scpages/espressominicomputer.html > > (available in the US also). > > it is not quite cheap enough to be "disposable" but the form > factor is good. > > the Tiqit also has potential. > > the only laptops I have known that really seem strong and robust > are the old IBM thinkpads with metal case. we have one at work that > has been through many airports, from sealevel to 14K ft, from hot > to freezing, over about 6 years of hard use, and still works. it > is old and has a slow CPU and doesn't like to boot until it has > warmed up a bit, but it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. can't > say the same for any other brand (or model) we have used. > > sure wish HUDs w/decent resolution would come down in price. > > de > > -- > ........................................................................ ..... > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129435f74/M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/ D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1090324271/A=2196952/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002%20" HYPERLINK "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_06150 4.jpg" HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5172439.6288214.3294649/D=group s/S=:HM/A=2196952/rand=296771512" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro up/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"ori gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.722 / Virus Database: 478 - Release Date: 18/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.722 / Virus Database: 478 - Release Date: 18/07/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4668|4668|2004-07-19 09:50:26|romaxcn_23|34' Catalina 2003 for sale|Dear Sir, Direct from the owner we have for sale 34' Catalina 2003 for sale The roomy new galley boasts a custom molded, one piece counter top, dry food locker and overhead cup storage. The increased counter space conceals the built in trash chute under cutting block. The built-in microwave beautifully complements the two-burner gimalled stainless range with oven. Three cedar lined hanging lockers and three huge double berths allow plenty of room for crew and overnight guests. The roomy head is still aft, where it is closest to the cockpit. The uncommonly large compartment provides plenty of storage space, as well as a hot water shower and seat. Brokers Remarks:The Catalina 34 has the best layout that I have ever seen, and now can see why it is one of the most popular 34's on the market Vessel in good condition. Photos available at http://www.maritimecentral.com/Yachts/Sailing_Yachts/y/1811/0/ . Please do not hesitate to contact us for further information. I wait for your reply. Best regard. Loran Raul Str Sabinelor nr 5 Bl.E4 sc.B ap 12 Tulcea, n/a 820119 RO Tel : +040 722702393 email:romaxcn_23@y...| 4669|4668|2004-07-19 09:50:45|easy software|Re: 34' Catalina 2003 for sale|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4670|4660|2004-07-19 10:28:14|Ben Tucker|Re: small computers for boats|I've been using pocketmail for the last 3 years. Its Great for small boats. Cheers Ben| 4671|4660|2004-07-19 10:32:08|Robert Gainer|Re: small computers for boats|I lived on board with my desktop computer built into the cabinet at the chart table for three years. I put that one into my shop when I got the first laptop. None of my laptops have died from corrosion, but I don�t keep them very long. I replace them every 3 years. The laptops (I have 2 IBM A-31) fit into pelican cases with a rechargeable descent. I keep my sextant in another pelican case. Any thing that�s important to me is double bagged in heavy plastic or put into pelican cases with descent. I think of it this way, your knotmeter lives on the boat full time and will last, how long? I have not done this because of the warrantee from IBM but I understand that you can spray the system board with something to prevent water damage. I must get some free time and check that out. Robert Gainer >From: "Gerald Niffenegger" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: small computers for boats >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:50:29 -0000 > >I have talked to two different couples that do extensive traveling and >live aboard. Both reported that computers only last one year before >the need to be replaced. The second couple had replaced three fried >laptops with a conventional tower type computer and had been running >it for 11 months. The first couple had given up on onboard computers >and were using Internet cafe's. >Anyone have similar experience? >Gerald >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke wrote: > > > > Small computer for boats: > > > > I had looked with some interest at the Espresso > > > > http://www.sterlingxs.co.uk/scpages/espressominicomputer.html > > > > (available in the US also). > > > > it is not quite cheap enough to be "disposable" but the form > > factor is good. > > > > the Tiqit also has potential. > > > > the only laptops I have known that really seem strong and robust > > are the old IBM thinkpads with metal case. we have one at work that > > has been through many airports, from sealevel to 14K ft, from hot > > to freezing, over about 6 years of hard use, and still works. it > > is old and has a slow CPU and doesn't like to boot until it has > > warmed up a bit, but it takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. can't > > say the same for any other brand (or model) we have used. > > > > sure wish HUDs w/decent resolution would come down in price. > > > > de > > > > -- > > >............................................................................. > > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick >Observatory, UCSC: > > :Mail: de@u... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : > > :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : > > :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA >B9C9 E76E: > _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/| 4672|4660|2004-07-19 10:40:36|easy software|Re: small computers for boats|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4673|4660|2004-07-19 11:04:30|easy software|Re: small computers for boats|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4674|4674|2004-07-19 12:14:00|Gerd|Greg's holidays!!!!|Greg, if you read this, please switch your automatic mail responder off!!!!.. Didn't he say he was gone for a month??! ;-) Gerd| 4675|4674|2004-07-19 12:49:39|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4676|4674|2004-07-19 13:11:19|Jack Gardiner|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|this is great, our resident "know it all" has reached the top of his game with a looping auto response ----- Original Message ----- From: easy software To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4677|4674|2004-07-19 13:11:26|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4678|4674|2004-07-19 13:50:38|Steve Rankin|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|It could be worse. He might have left an admonishment on Brent's skeg designs! Steve Jack Gardiner wrote: > this is great, our resident "know it all" has reached the top of his game with a looping auto response > ----- Original Message ----- > From: easy software > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! > > > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4679|4674|2004-07-19 15:22:57|Robert Gainer|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Does anyone know how to filter out a person in MSN e-mail? Thanks; Robert Gainer >From: "easy software" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:49:07 -0700 > >We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > _________________________________________________________________ Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to �Dig Yourself Out of Debt� from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx| 4680|4674|2004-07-19 15:57:46|spencerj71|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Robert, Click options (upper right side) then custom filters. Its pretty self explanitory after that. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > Does anyone know how to filter out a person in MSN e-mail? > Thanks; > Robert Gainer > > > > >From: "easy software" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! > >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:49:07 -0700 > > > >We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to `Dig Yourself Out of Debt' from MSN > Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx | 4681|4674|2004-07-19 16:04:54|Gerd|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|The only way to stop that I believe is the moderator changes his mail setting in this group, so that he does no longer receive all messages, reponds, then reponds to his responses etc. Alex?? Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > Does anyone know how to filter out a person in MSN e-mail? > Thanks; > Robert Gainer > > > > >From: "easy software" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! > >Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 09:49:07 -0700 > > > >We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Overwhelmed by debt? Find out how to `Dig Yourself Out of Debt' from MSN > Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0407debt.armx | 4682|4674|2004-07-19 16:06:06|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4683|4674|2004-07-19 16:10:25|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4684|4674|2004-07-19 16:26:30|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4685|4660|2004-07-19 16:55:55|jim dorey|Re: small computers for boats|On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:50:29 -0000, Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > I have talked to two different couples that do extensive traveling and > live aboard. Both reported that computers only last one year before > the need to be replaced. The second couple had replaced three fried > laptops with a conventional tower type computer and had been running > it for 11 months. The first couple had given up on onboard computers > and were using Internet cafe's. > Anyone have similar experience? > Gerald heat and vibration, spend a lot of time on stormy seas and the comp will be junk, well, not all of it, just the moving bits, and the connections may work loose. usually the only thing that will be damaged by the rock and sway will be the hard disk, mount it in a vibration damping cradle, there's plenty of models out now to reduce the jet engine impression to a kittenlike purr, it'd work to prevent hdd damage. well, my home computer was damaged by salt air, the connection on the motherboard to the power supply got corroded and sparked, melted the connector, pitted the contacts, made a horrid stink, no board damage luckily, but that kinda thing is worse on the water. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 4686|4674|2004-07-19 17:00:10|Mike|Re: Greg's holidays!!!! / James Douglas / Plasma Arc Cutter|LOL! Gone but not forgotten! Reading the posts over the weekend was thoroughly entertaining. I think the point was made and we can move on now. Until next time? Jim (or James - I don't know which you prefer): Did you come to any conclusions regarding your plans to build a "26- 28 foot sailboat? I was thinking, call or drop by the welding department at B.C.I.T. and ask one of the instructors whether they think that one with no former welding skills(?) should attempt to weld an aluminum boat. I'd hate to see you invest a lot of money on a project and get less than satisfactory results for your troubles. I have nothing against alloy boat building, but I have seen serious problems when inspecting welds on same, made by, supposedly, experienced welders. I would be interested in hearing more about the "homemade" plasma arc cutter, though I would also be concerned about the safety factor. Then again, this might be a well thought out design. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "easy software" wrote: > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. | 4687|4674|2004-07-19 17:01:50|Mike|Re: Greg's holidays!!!! / James Douglas / Plasma Arc Cutter|LOL! Gone but not forgotten! Reading the posts over the weekend was thoroughly entertaining. I think the point was made and we can move on now. Until next time? Jim (or James - I don't know which you prefer): Did you come to any conclusions regarding your plans to build a "26- 28 foot sailboat? I was thinking, call or drop by the welding department at B.C.I.T. and ask one of the instructors whether they think that one with no former welding skills(?) should attempt to weld an aluminum boat. I'd hate to see you invest a lot of money on a project and get less than satisfactory results for your troubles. I have nothing against alloy boat building, but I have seen serious problems when inspecting welds on same, made by, supposedly, experienced welders. I would be interested in hearing more about the "homemade" plasma arc cutter, though I would also be concerned about the safety factor. Then again, this might be a well thought out design. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "easy software" wrote: > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. | 4688|4674|2004-07-19 17:03:45|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!! / James Douglas / Plasma Arc Cutter|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4689|4689|2004-07-19 17:03:58|Mike|Plate selection|Hi, all: In choosing plate for building, I was wondering what you all thought about a 5% nickel for added corrosion resistance? Regards, Mike| 4690|4674|2004-07-19 17:07:28|Mike|Re: Greg's holidays!!!! / James Douglas / Plasma Arc Cutter|Sorry, once was more than enough!| 4691|4691|2004-07-19 17:32:13|Robert Gainer|Shaping hulls|About thirty years ago a steel boat was being built, I think in Australia that was two football shaped pieces of steel fastened together along the perimeter with a charge of blasting powder between the halves. The assembly was put under water and after detonating the explosive charge the two halves were separated. One end was cut off each and replaced by a flat piece of steel to become the stern. You got two boats out of each setup. If I remember it right the shape was very nice. What ever happened to the technique? Does anyone know anything about this method of shaping hulls? All the best; Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/| 4692|4691|2004-07-19 17:35:30|easy software|Re: Shaping hulls|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4693|4660|2004-07-19 17:47:08|easy software|Re: small computers for boats|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4694|4674|2004-07-19 17:49:42|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4695|4689|2004-07-19 17:53:30|spencerj71|Re: Plate selection|Mike, I assume you're talking about steel and building a boat out of stainless steel. I also assume this 5% nickel is in addition to 16- 18% chromium. Yes, the higher the nickel content the more corrosion resistent (5% is on the low side), but the harder it is to "work" the material. Also more Ni=more $$. If you're talking about aluminum alloy, no marine grade alloy I'm familiar with has any nickel in it. To you have a specific alloy (aluminum or steel) that you're considering? - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > Hi, all: > In choosing plate for building, I was wondering what you all thought > about a 5% nickel for added corrosion resistance? > Regards, > Mike | 4696|4674|2004-07-19 17:59:11|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!! / James Douglas / Plasma Arc Cutter|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4697|4674|2004-07-19 18:13:14|Graeme|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Will have to block this . -----Original Message----- From: Jack Gardiner [mailto:alex29@...] Sent: Tuesday, 20 July 2004 1:10 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! this is great, our resident "know it all" has reached the top of his game with a looping auto response ----- Original Message ----- From: easy software To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Greg's holidays!!!! We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 4698|4674|2004-07-19 18:21:05|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4699|4689|2004-07-19 18:59:56|easy software|Re: Plate selection|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4700|4689|2004-07-19 19:59:55|easy software|Re: Plate selection|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4701|4689|2004-07-19 20:27:46|Mike|Re: Plate selection|Spencer: Thanks for your reply. Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my father, a retired metallurgical engineer. He was suitably impressed with the concept & made a few suggestions, including that I consider a content of 5% nickel. He felt that the added cost would still come well under the cost of building in aluminum(remember that this was a year, or more, ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to allow for reasonable weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, he mentioned chromium, and what percentages. I am a welder and have, while doing inspection work, seen enough flaws in welds on aluminum boats to know that I will leave building in that material to the highly experienced aluminum welders & stick to what I know, hence steel. I just thought it would be of value to ask the group & witness by your response that it is already paying dividends. Thank you. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "spencerj71" wrote: > Mike, > > I assume you're talking about steel and building a boat out of > stainless steel. I also assume this 5% nickel is in addition to 16- > 18% chromium. Yes, the higher the nickel content the more corrosion > resistent (5% is on the low side), but the harder it is to "work" the > material. Also more Ni=more $$. > > If you're talking about aluminum alloy, no marine grade alloy I'm > familiar with has any nickel in it. > > To you have a specific alloy (aluminum or steel) that you're > considering? > > - Spencer > | 4702|4691|2004-07-19 20:34:45|Ben Tucker|Re: Shaping hulls|Hi Robert I saw a Program on an Aluminum Ben lexan designed 31 footer that was semi production built down here in the 80's It was called a Eureka 31 (I think) and was crudely shaped out of plates rolled to the rough cross sections. This hull was then lowered in a concrete former in the ground outside, filled with water and stips of explosive layed into the water at carefully calculated spacings. Then Kaboom! a big splash of water everywhere and an nice compound hull was formed. stringers and frames were added afterwards. The two guys doing it had worked in the exlosive forming industry for years so knew exactly what they were doing. Since then I haven't heard anything more, the few eurekas I have seen have been FG. I don't really even know how I rembered all this detail since I probably saw the program 15 years ago (guess i'm just a boat nerd from way back) Cheers Ben http://uk.geocities.com/benandbernie2000/index.html| 4703|4691|2004-07-19 20:34:51|easy software|Re: Shaping hulls|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4704|4674|2004-07-19 21:17:17|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!! / James Douglas / Plasma Arc Cutter|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4705|4705|2004-07-19 21:43:14|murraycamp|junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|hello all... Starting to think about my next boat...i'm a fan of junk rig and i've also been impressed with brent swain's boats...has anyone had any success combining the two? what structural modifications were needed at the mast partners? (searched the archives to no avail but there are some photos of steel junks in the files section so i figure someone's out there) also....i can accept losing some windward performance with junk or with bilge keels, but will the combination of the two be too much?? anybody out there sailing a bilge keel junk? cheers, murray (vancouver island)| 4706|4674|2004-07-19 21:45:20|kendall|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Greg, if you read this, please switch your automatic mail responder > off!!!!.. Didn't he say he was gone for a month??! ;-) > Gerd who's the moderator? couldn't he just set his status to 'no email' for the duration? ken| 4707|4674|2004-07-19 21:45:26|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4708|4705|2004-07-19 22:04:24|Steve Rankin|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|Jack Carsons Bella Via is a elongated BS 36 with bilge keels and rigged as a junk ketch. I'm so impressed with her performance that I have rerigged my Gazelle in emulation. Steve Rankin Comox Valley murraycamp wrote: > hello all... > > Starting to think about my next boat...i'm a fan of junk rig and > i've also been impressed with brent swain's boats...has anyone had any > success combining the two? what structural modifications were needed at the > mast partners? > > (searched the archives to no avail but there are some photos of > steel junks in the files section so i figure someone's out there) > > also....i can accept losing some windward performance with junk or > with bilge keels, but will the combination of the two be too > much?? anybody out there sailing a bilge keel junk? > > cheers, > > murray > (vancouver island) > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4709|4705|2004-07-19 22:04:33|easy software|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4710|4689|2004-07-19 22:15:19|easy software|Re: Plate selection|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4711|4660|2004-07-19 22:15:40|Brent Geery|Re: small computers for boats|Regarding lowering the power usage of a "mini-PC" type system: Check out www.mini-itx.com www.epiacenter.com and www.viaarena.com for info on these small mini(and micro)-itx format mother boards. Find an old cheap/broken laptop that has a working LCD screen, that uses the LVDS interface (lots of them), and combine that with one of the mini-itx boards that has a LVDS option available. Add some memory, and a laptop hard hard drive, and you have a system almost as energy efficient as a laptop, and you have a PCI expansion port to play with. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4712|4652|2004-07-19 22:36:08|Michael Casling|Re: Greg knocking Brent|The description in his book also answers all the questions. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Tucker To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 1:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg knocking Brent Hi Guys An Interesting post by Brent two and a half years ago regarding strengthening Skegs. See below for the source http://www.metalboatsociety.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php? t=53&sid=249075ce127fe5e927410ba5b01d7f27 (you might need to join up? but worth it anyway as they have some good stuff) "Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2002 1:31 pm Post subject: You can always build the equivalent of a skeg extension onto the inside of the hull. When you weld the skeg plate to the hull plate a ridge forms on the inside of the hull plate which clearly shows the position of the skeg plate on the hull. If you weld an extension of this plate onto the inside of the hull with strong welds on both sides of the plate, then weld the skeg to the hull with extra passes , the structural effect should be the equivalent of having run the skeg right through the hull in the first place , as long as the welds are as strong as or stronger than the skeg plate. This extension can then be fully welded to any transverse webs inside the hull. Putting a long gusset from the front of the skeg to the hull can greatly increase the resistance to any head on impacts on the skeg such as when it hits a floating object head on. This gusset can extend a couple of feet along the hull and well down onto the skeg. Making it hollow , and as wide as or wider than the skeg will help it give the skeg a bit more lateral strength . Brent Swain" Cheers Ben [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4713|4689|2004-07-19 22:39:09|Michael Casling|Re: Plate selection|Another good book is " Metal Corrosion in Boats " by Nigel Warren. I got a copy of it and Brents book from another member and I highly reccommend both, even if you have a plastic boat like me. Cor-Ten steel has small additions of copper, chromium and nickel. I am quoting from the book. Later in the book he talks about copper - nickel which lasts very well but is likely a lot of $$. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 5:27 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Plate selection Spencer: Thanks for your reply. Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my father, a retired metallurgical engineer. He was suitably impressed with the concept & made a few suggestions, including that I consider a content of 5% nickel. He felt that the added cost would still come well under the cost of building in aluminum(remember that this was a year, or more, ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to allow for reasonable weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, he mentioned chromium, and what percentages. I am a welder and have, while doing inspection work, seen enough flaws in welds on aluminum boats to know that I will leave building in that material to the highly experienced aluminum welders & stick to what I know, hence steel. I just thought it would be of value to ask the group & witness by your response that it is already paying dividends. Thank you. Regards, Mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4714|4652|2004-07-19 22:47:15|easy software|Re: Greg knocking Brent|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4715|4674|2004-07-19 22:52:47|Michael Casling|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Could the duration please be extended. I really do not like to pick on anyone so I try and be polite, even so it is possible via this medium to convey the wrong message, for that I apologise. However I am pleased that I am not the only one who has found Gregs posts out of line. I believe he raised an issue in an attempt to dicredit another person and he persisted when he should have quit. It was not up to him to be asking and almost demanding a response. The answer could be found in Brents book. I found that simple questions to Greg about who designed what were left unanswered and obscured with mumbo jumbo. He likely has a lot of knowledge and is keen to promote himself, and may just be suffering from too much enthusiasm. Some days it is not easy to get your message heard and some budding salesmen may go beyond good taste. I hope all my fellow boaters are getting lots of time out on the water in whatever boat suits their style. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kendall To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 6:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Greg, if you read this, please switch your automatic mail responder > off!!!!.. Didn't he say he was gone for a month??! ;-) > Gerd who's the moderator? couldn't he just set his status to 'no email' for the duration? ken To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4716|4705|2004-07-19 22:59:30|murraycamp|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|i saw the photo of the Bella Via is Gazelle the name of your boat or the design? (Colville?) what size is she? I'm headed up island soon, i'd love to walk by the docks and have a look.. m.| 4717|4674|2004-07-19 23:04:28|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4718|4689|2004-07-19 23:23:43|easy software|Re: Plate selection|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4719|4705|2004-07-19 23:32:30|easy software|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4720|4705|2004-07-20 00:13:08|easy software|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4721|4691|2004-07-20 00:13:21|Charles Leblanc|Re: Shaping hulls|Explosion forming is still used but it is mostly limited to aluminum. Steel has a ductil-fragile transition and will tend to break instead of forming when subjected to the explosion energy; this is especially true for the welding. Also, most steel will be able to deform about 10-12% before breaking, If there is any part of the hull that has to stretch more than 12% is will probably break. It is safe to say that steel is not well suited for that method of forming This has been used in the industry for forming aluminum plates. Aluminum will be able to have more elongation before breaking and it doesn't become fragile like steel when subjected to a high rate of deformation. Even welds will be stronger after the deformation. The drawback is that you need a specific certification to use explosive, the shape had to be compatible with the technology and the safety is always an issue with explosive. There are a few boat hulls that were formed that way. Many failed or had incorrect shape after forming. Perconally, I think that origami is easier and the result are more predictable but I can say that I am toying with the idea for a small dome (48") that I want to build for an unrelated project Charles Leblanc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > About thirty years ago a steel boat was being built, I think in Australia > that was two football shaped pieces of steel fastened together along the > perimeter with a charge of blasting powder between the halves. The assembly > was put under water and after detonating the explosive charge the two halves > were separated. One end was cut off each and replaced by a flat piece of > steel to become the stern. You got two boats out of each setup. If I > remember it right the shape was very nice. What ever happened to the > technique? Does anyone know anything about this method of shaping hulls? > All the best; > Robert Gainer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ | 4722|4691|2004-07-20 00:14:32|easy software|Re: Shaping hulls|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4723|4660|2004-07-20 00:52:07|easy software|Re: small computers for boats|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4724|4674|2004-07-20 00:54:23|Henri Naths|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|hey Michael, How come your email address is always popping up in my blocked senders list and your posting end up in my deleted file. I'm on outlook express, I think I got hacked,on or about the 20 of June ( we were talking about the Court Of Appeal") I managed to restore everthing ( like a bull in a china shop, a lot of crashing and banging and snorting..lol) except for that. Any suggestions. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 19 July, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! Could the duration please be extended. I really do not like to pick on anyone so I try and be polite, even so it is possible via this medium to convey the wrong message, for that I apologise. However I am pleased that I am not the only one who has found Gregs posts out of line. I believe he raised an issue in an attempt to dicredit another person and he persisted when he should have quit. It was not up to him to be asking and almost demanding a response. The answer could be found in Brents book. I found that simple questions to Greg about who designed what were left unanswered and obscured with mumbo jumbo. He likely has a lot of knowledge and is keen to promote himself, and may just be suffering from too much enthusiasm. Some days it is not easy to get your message heard and some budding salesmen may go beyond good taste. I hope all my fellow boaters are getting lots of time out on the water in whatever boat suits their style. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: kendall To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 6:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Greg, if you read this, please switch your automatic mail responder > off!!!!.. Didn't he say he was gone for a month??! ;-) > Gerd who's the moderator? couldn't he just set his status to 'no email' for the duration? ken To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4725|4674|2004-07-20 00:57:52|easy software|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4726|4689|2004-07-20 01:34:52|Mike|Re: Plate selection|Michael: Thanks. I bought Brent's book some time ago and am "patiently" awaiting it's return, from my Father. I have heard of and will look for Warren's Book. Do you know who carries it? Yeah, Cor-Ten was my first choice, unfortunately, the Philippine Government shut down the only local steel producer, so, as I will have the added expense of imported material, I thought that I would see if there was an even better alternative. Regards, Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Michael Casling wrote: > Another good book is " Metal Corrosion in Boats " by Nigel Warren. I got a copy of it and Brents book from another member and I highly reccommend both, even if you have a plastic boat like me. Cor-Ten steel has small additions of copper, chromium and nickel. I am quoting from the book. Later in the book he talks about copper - nickel which lasts very well but is likely a lot of $$. > Michael | 4727|4689|2004-07-20 02:18:52|easy software|Re: Plate selection|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4728|4705|2004-07-20 03:07:11|Steve Rankin|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|murraycamp wrote: > i saw the photo of the Bella Via > > is Gazelle the name of your boat or the design? (Colville?) > what size is she? > > I'm headed up island soon, i'd love to walk by the docks and have a look.. > > m. > Thomas Colvin design. 42'. It will be going in the water in a week or two. steve| 4729|4531|2004-07-20 03:36:58|James Douglas|Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|To Mike, I generally go by Jim rather than James. My e-mail address was initially set up for my research and development company and so presented my formal name to the public. Perhaps you may use Michael rather than Mike in a similar way. Yes, I would be most interested in anything you can find out from your B.C.I.T. insructor friend about students' success in welding aluminum alloy. I am a tax accountant by profession and so my "shop" experience with welding steel is not a lot and is non-existent with alloy. I had been looking at Brent's steel boats with two objectives in mind. One to build a smaller offshore capable, tough as nails boat in steel that I could sail with confidence around the world. The other would be a larger boat someday off in the future to serve as my home here on the west coast. Having recenly suffered the ravages of marital breakdown and separation, I do not have a lot of money to make my get away!! I have a good 10 years of working life ahead but would rather not spend all of it working!! It's been a rather long swim so far... My financial propects might (if I'm awfully good and pray a lot!!) generate savings something in the order of $30,000 to 40,000 over the next six to nine months and I'll need at least $10,000 for a cruising budget. $20,000 to $30,000 just is not going to do an alloy boat!! And I had hoped to get something bigger than 26 feet in Steel which might be a tall order on the remaimg sum but I might be able to finagle an extra 5 or 10 G's from somewhere to squeek through. Is $25 to $35,000 going to be enough for a no frills 31 footer? I might well expect to do this if I bought an older fiberglass boat but I just would not have the reassurance of steel. Foam sandwich in a cataraman might offer peace of mind in that she won't sink but.... Spacially, I'm looking to have a decent bunk (I'm 5'11" and 250 lbs.) Might this be a double for comfort in port?; a place to cook & eat (single or double burner stove)(storage for pressure cooker and food dehydrator)(sufficient food storage); a decent head with perhaps a shower. Plus also inside navigation area....all of which might be a lot to ask even for Brent's 31 foot size although he apparently does very well with this size of boat. If any one has any comment to make on either the financial commitment or "livability" of 31 foot design I would appreciate hearing about this. ....Jim Douglas/Vancouver, B.C.| 4730|4531|2004-07-20 03:40:36|easy software|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4731|4705|2004-07-20 03:47:36|James Douglas|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > > murraycamp wrote: > > > i saw the photo of the Bella Via > > > > is Gazelle the name of your boat or the design? (Colville?) > > what size is she? > > > > I'm headed up island soon, i'd love to walk by the docks and have a look.. > > > > m. > > > > Thomas Colvin design. 42'. It will be going in the water in a week or two. > steve If you look up the BuySell for B.C. for sailboats (search under Yahoo for it) there is a 40 foot steel junk for sale this month which was apparently built to be a replica of Allan Farrel's famed China Cloud.| 4732|4705|2004-07-20 03:51:13|easy software|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4733|4705|2004-07-20 03:53:21|easy software|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4734|4531|2004-07-20 05:21:10|sae140|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi Jim just stickin' my oar in on this thread. First - the "sailing around the world in small boats" stuff. I think it's misleading to hold on to the idea that many small boats have successfully sailed around the world. To the best of my knowledge no small boat has ever sailed itself around the world. What *has* happened, is that there have been certain individuals - often supremely fit, ex-special forces types (although not always), well used to discomfort, deprivation and hardship - who have sailed around the world, and sometimes they've done this in small boats. As examples, Tilman (of Mischief fame) and most of his crew were mountaineers; Hasler, Mcloud and Duxbury (of Drascombe Lugger fame) were all ex-Navy, with years of sea-time. In my opinion, if people focussed more on the individuals concerned, rather than on the boats they used, then they'd perhaps develop a better understanding of the issues involved in ocean sailing. The number of people who build or buy boats which are in some way associated with the bold exploits of some experienced mariner or other, are legion - as if in some magical way the ownership of such a design will somehow provide them with a guarantee of safety. The marinas around this and other countries coastlines are full of boats which never venture out to sea. I believe this is because a significant disparity between the dreams and the reality of sailing are discovered after the boat has been acquired. In particular, sailing and comfort are not really synonymous. Sure - the bigger the boat then the more 'comfort' is possible, but it's still pretty thin on the ground. 5' 11" and 250 lbs isn't exceptional (I'm 6' 4" and 230 lbs), but ideally you'll need two bunks (one either side) for max convenience. Or maybe - think "hammock" when underway .... unusual, but guys did use 'em for centuries. Length alone isn't necessarily the best yardstick by which to judge accomodation: length and displacement - together with useable height - is better. But nothing beats taking a look inside a particular boat to get the best feel for it's size. At the risk of saying the obvious, then for extended distance sailing, load carrying capacity is important - and for that reason alone the 31 would be a better bet than the 26. Another point worth considering is that the 'best' (unqualified) boat for deep oceans isn't necessarily the best boat for mooching around coastlines, so there's always a need for compromise regarding keels and draft, engines etc. In my view the Swain boats represent the best compromise for all-round sailing. I'd prefer a 6' draft long- keel for offshore, but retractable keels for close in. Imho, the Swain twin bilge keel and skeg is the best all-round compromise, especially with shallow anchorages and maintenance in mind. My only negative criticism is that I'd like to see gaff cutter and junk rig options on offer, for us aging old farts who need rigs which are easier to work, especially single-handed. With regard to capital outlay, then doing the work yourself is by far the best option - which suggests a steel hull rather than aluminium. Remember that the cost of fittings can be very high unless you make 'em yourself. With your accountancy skills, there should always be some kind of work wherever you make port, so a bare-bones hull "finish as you go" strategy sounds like a winner, and you could then cruise for far less than you're budgetting for, with a suitable change in mind set (if this takes your fancy). Hope there may be at least one little pearl of wisdom somewhere in the above. Good luck with whatever you decide. Colin PS - if you haven't already read Annie Hill's "Voyaging on a Small Income", you might find this relevant to your ambitions. Their 34ft double ender probably has equivalent accomodation space to a Swain 31 footer with transom.| 4735|4531|2004-07-20 05:25:06|easy software|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4736|4531|2004-07-20 07:05:37|Robert Gainer|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Colin has most of the analysis about the boats correct. His thoughts on the people involved I think are wrong. The ones you hear about are the extreme examples. The more common families or individuals that do it are not reported in the press. In my sailing I have meet many that were cruising on what I guess is an average size of 30 to 35 feet. I have lived (3 years) on a boat as small as a 26 foot O�Day and done a trans-Atlantic on a boat as small as 22 feet. I have extensive experience in trans oceanic cruising in a 22, 27, 31 and 110-foot boats. The size of the boat you need is in proportion to the amount of creature comforts that you want. It�s not any more complicated then that. If you don�t want to carry very much you can be very happy in a 30 footer. People have cruised very comfortably in 26 foot on up. The only one that can decide how large a boat you need is you, the person that will use the boat. All the best; Robert Gainer >From: "sae140" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:21:03 -0000 > >Hi Jim > >just stickin' my oar in on this thread. > >First - the "sailing around the world in small boats" stuff. > >I think it's misleading to hold on to the idea that many small boats >have successfully sailed around the world. To the best of my >knowledge no small boat has ever sailed itself around the world. >What *has* happened, is that there have been certain individuals - >often supremely fit, ex-special forces types (although not always), >well used to discomfort, deprivation and hardship - who have sailed >around the world, and sometimes they've done this in small boats. As >examples, Tilman (of Mischief fame) and most of his crew were >mountaineers; Hasler, Mcloud and Duxbury (of Drascombe Lugger fame) >were all ex-Navy, with years of sea-time. > >In my opinion, if people focussed more on the individuals concerned, >rather than on the boats they used, then they'd perhaps develop a >better understanding of the issues involved in ocean sailing. The >number of people who build or buy boats which are in some way >associated with the bold exploits of some experienced mariner or >other, are legion - as if in some magical way the ownership of such a >design will somehow provide them with a guarantee of safety. > >The marinas around this and other countries coastlines are full of >boats which never venture out to sea. I believe this is because a >significant disparity between the dreams and the reality of sailing >are discovered after the boat has been acquired. >In particular, sailing and comfort are not really synonymous. Sure - >the bigger the boat then the more 'comfort' is possible, but it's >still pretty thin on the ground. > >5' 11" and 250 lbs isn't exceptional (I'm 6' 4" and 230 lbs), but >ideally you'll need two bunks (one either side) for max convenience. >Or maybe - think "hammock" when underway .... unusual, but guys did >use 'em for centuries. > >Length alone isn't necessarily the best yardstick by which to judge >accomodation: length and displacement - together with useable height - > is better. But nothing beats taking a look inside a particular boat >to get the best feel for it's size. > >At the risk of saying the obvious, then for extended distance >sailing, load carrying capacity is important - and for that reason >alone the 31 would be a better bet than the 26. > >Another point worth considering is that the 'best' (unqualified) boat >for deep oceans isn't necessarily the best boat for mooching around >coastlines, so there's always a need for compromise regarding keels >and draft, engines etc. In my view the Swain boats represent the >best compromise for all-round sailing. I'd prefer a 6' draft long- >keel for offshore, but retractable keels for close in. Imho, the >Swain twin bilge keel and skeg is the best all-round compromise, >especially with shallow anchorages and maintenance in mind. My only >negative criticism is that I'd like to see gaff cutter and junk rig >options on offer, for us aging old farts who need rigs which are >easier to work, especially single-handed. > >With regard to capital outlay, then doing the work yourself is by far >the best option - which suggests a steel hull rather than aluminium. >Remember that the cost of fittings can be very high unless you >make 'em yourself. With your accountancy skills, there should always >be some kind of work wherever you make port, so a bare-bones >hull "finish as you go" strategy sounds like a winner, and you could >then cruise for far less than you're budgetting for, with a suitable >change in mind set (if this takes your fancy). > >Hope there may be at least one little pearl of wisdom somewhere in >the above. Good luck with whatever you decide. > >Colin > >PS - if you haven't already read Annie Hill's "Voyaging on a Small >Income", you might find this relevant to your ambitions. Their 34ft >double ender probably has equivalent accomodation space to a Swain 31 >footer with transom. > > > _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/| 4737|4691|2004-07-20 07:53:05|Robert Gainer|Re: Shaping hulls|Charles; What I am thinking is that you can take the inflatable air bags you use in raising sunken boats. Put this between two pieces of steel. Inflate and then you have a compound curve for a nice bubble top cabin. Or you might put an airfoil shape into a keel or rudder this way. If the air bag is not enough then use hydraulic pressure by filling with water to spread the sheets apart. I wanted to see if any body had done this before. The shape of the plates and how you restrain them will control the shape of the curves. After separating them you can weld them to pipe to get the leading edge of a keel for instance and get some interesting shapes. I can envision a cabin top welded to pipe sections and then to plate sides that has a very nice molded shape to it. Any thoughts on this? Robert Gainer >From: "Charles Leblanc" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shaping hulls >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 04:13:12 -0000 > >Explosion forming is still used but it is mostly limited to aluminum. > >Steel has a ductil-fragile transition and will tend to break instead >of forming when subjected to the explosion energy; this is especially >true for the welding. Also, most steel will be able to deform about >10-12% before breaking, If there is any part of the hull that has to >stretch more than 12% is will probably break. It is safe to say that >steel is not well suited for that method of forming > >This has been used in the industry for forming aluminum plates. >Aluminum will be able to have more elongation before breaking and it >doesn't become fragile like steel when subjected to a high rate of >deformation. Even welds will be stronger after the deformation. > >The drawback is that you need a specific certification to use >explosive, the shape had to be compatible with the technology and >the safety is always an issue with explosive. There are a few boat >hulls that were formed that way. Many failed or had incorrect shape >after forming. Perconally, I think that origami is easier and the >result are more predictable but I can say that I am toying with the >idea for a small dome (48") that I want to build for an unrelated >project > >Charles Leblanc > > >--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" > wrote: > > About thirty years ago a steel boat was being built, I think in >Australia > > that was two football shaped pieces of steel fastened together >along the > > perimeter with a charge of blasting powder between the halves. The >assembly > > was put under water and after detonating the explosive charge the >two halves > > were separated. One end was cut off each and replaced by a flat >piece of > > steel to become the stern. You got two boats out of each setup. If >I > > remember it right the shape was very nice. What ever happened to >the > > technique? Does anyone know anything about this method of shaping >hulls? > > All the best; > > Robert Gainer > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/| 4738|1413|2004-07-20 09:09:25|jp4sail|New member|Hi everyone I've joined the group about a wk ago and, before posting anything, I decided to spent some time reading all the the postings, well... at least the ones I was interested on. Like many others here, I'm also thinking abut building my boat. I still don't know if I'm going for an origami boat but it seems so simple to build one (well, at lest the hull) that it's very temptating not to try,,,,and I have.....In a piece of paper,,,,,and it looks really nice. JPaes| 4739|4739|2004-07-20 09:11:51|jp4sail|To uncle Ben|Dear uncle Ben Do you by any chance have the contacts with the designer os the French aluminum centerboarder? Do you know if the building plans for that design are available for amateur construction? How about the Puck 7.7? Thanx JPaes| 4740|4740|2004-07-20 09:15:06|jp4sail|Greg's 30 footer, any comments?|Hi everyone I kind of liked Greg's 30 footer but I'd like to hear from more knowledgebale people. I know how to sail a boat but i know nothing about boat design.... I heard Brent mentioning something about narrow beam at waterline. Is she too narow at thae waterline? Is she gonna be tender? Please, Greg, Brent, Spencer, Gerd....Could you tlak more about it? thanx Jpaes| 4741|4741|2004-07-20 09:18:07|jp4sail|To Gerd|Dear Gerd Congratulations for your YAGO. I can't stop going to your site, really nice. I wish I had the skills to do something like that. JPaes| 4742|4742|2004-07-20 09:26:22|jp4sail|Aluminum question|Hi I always thought about having a metal boat and aluminum was my first choice but when I moved to S. America, the idea of building a boat out of aLuminum became a big problem. The so called marine alloys aren't made down here, at least commercialy. You can only get the 5083 or 5086 alloys under special order and the minimum order they take is 6 tons. However, you can get the 5052H34 and H38. After some research, i fopund out that the mechanical charachteristics of both alloys are very close to the 5083 or 5086. So, I'd like to know wht you guys think about. Dou you think it's safe to build a boat with the 5052H38 alloy? the price is about 4 US dollars/ Kilo. On thte aother side, the price for steel is less than 1 dollar/Kilo. Any comments on that?| 4743|4531|2004-07-20 10:05:41|Phil S.|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Well Robin Graham started his around the world voyage when he was 16, finished when he was 21. started in a 26 footer and then switched to a 32' when he was nearly done. I read his exploits as a kid and it inspired me to want to go to sea, but helicopters had a stronger hold. > What *has* happened, is that there have been certain individuals - > often supremely fit, ex-special forces types (although not always), | 4744|4744|2004-07-20 10:40:52|Phil S.|Being real|I think a couple of the guys have hit on a real point with the design and ACTUAL useage most our boats will get. I have wondered why people will build outstanding cruising yachts and only to sell them a couple of years(months) later, ie Buehlers' Rusty Duck, is one example. How often do we buy or build something for an intended use but when it comes around to really using it, the reality is much different than the dream. Maybe we all need to sit down and really think about how much real life is going to taint the dream. I have looked back and I am totaly going in a different direction, I will go with a power cruiser, low HP, hull speed kind of thing. As much as i would love to dream about taking off and cruising the world, the reality is my obligations preclude me from running off on such a foolish venture. No matter how many times I read "Voyaging on a Small Income" things aren't going to change. Now could I build a boat that would be a globe girdler and be happy with it, yep, but could I build something that will fill my realistic needs and build cheaper, smaller and faster and enjoy the cruising I can much sooner, I hope so. Regards Phil| 4745|4745|2004-07-20 10:46:32|Phil S.|Bullet proof Boats|I have been reading with some interest Greg's tirade on Skeg strength with some reservations, I have met Greg, he seems to be a nice, genuine guy, with real concerns. I think the point he is missing, we are all maybe, how strong is a production boat of similar size. A "Frozen Snot" boat wouldn't stand up to 1/10th the abuse a BS hull would and do it with no perceptible damage. So lets not argure over something that in reality isn't really broke. regards Phil| 4746|4705|2004-07-20 10:54:02|Phil S.|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|If you are on Vancouver Island, look up Evan Shaler, that is exactly what he built, although the hull design is somewhat different than a BS hull. Evan and I spent part of a morning checking out some of the BS boats he has built, His boat is the one that was a copy of China Cloud. I also think his boat might be for sale. He lurks here on the boards a couple of times a week so he might catch up to you. Regards Phil| 4747|4674|2004-07-20 11:05:42|Michael Casling|Re: Greg's holidays!!!!|Maybe I will have to use my wifes computer to get a message through to you. Did I say something that caused you to block me out ? When you get hacked I believe that the address book is usually one of the target areas. Others will know a lot more about this than me. At least you can read them from the deleted section. I use outlook express with a firewall and Norton virus protection that is always up to date. My day job is in the financial and insurance business and I need to be online often checking accounts. My last words on the Court of Appeal were wondering where she might be. I think she was about 35 to 37 feet, steel full keel and darkish green. She could only have gone West and that means the Vancouver area. Anybody seen the boat. She would have splashed in about 2 years ago. She was just off the freeway East of Chilliwack and was there for about 25 years. ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! hey Michael, How come your email address is always popping up in my blocked senders list and your posting end up in my deleted file. I'm on outlook express, I think I got hacked,on or about the 20 of June ( we were talking about the Court Of Appeal") I managed to restore everthing ( like a bull in a china shop, a lot of crashing and banging and snorting..lol) except for that. Any suggestions. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 19 July, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! Could the duration please be extended. I really do not like to pick on anyone so I try and be polite, even so it is possible via this medium to convey the wrong message, for that I apologise. However I am pleased that I am not the only one who has found Gregs posts out of line. I believe he raised an issue in an attempt to dicredit another person and he persisted when he should have quit. It was not up to him to be asking and almost demanding a response. The answer could be found in Brents book. I found that simple questions to Greg about who designed what were left unanswered and obscured with mumbo jumbo. He likely has a lot of knowledge and is keen to promote himself, and may just be suffering from too much enthusiasm. Some days it is not easy to get your message heard and some budding salesmen may go beyond good taste. I hope all my fellow boaters are getting lots of time out on the water in whatever boat suits their style. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4748|4531|2004-07-20 11:32:07|Michael Casling|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Since you first posed the question I have thought that the 31 foot boat would be better for you. It has more room and you mentioned spending a lot of time on it. If you are ever in Kelowna I will show you our 28 foot boat so you can get an idea of size. The bigger hull can give you two quarter berths or have the toilet area aft on one side, or two pilot berths forward. The smaller hull is not quite big enough for these options. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: James Douglas To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 12:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation To Mike, I generally go by Jim rather than James. My e-mail address was initially set up for my research and development company and so presented my formal name to the public. Perhaps you may use Michael rather than Mike in a similar way. Spacially, I'm looking to have a decent bunk (I'm 5'11" and 250 lbs.) Might this be a double for comfort in port?; a place to cook & eat (single or double burner stove)(storage for pressure cooker and food dehydrator)(sufficient food storage); a decent head with perhaps a shower. Plus also inside navigation area....all of which might be a lot to ask even for Brent's 31 foot size although he apparently does very well with this size of boat. If any one has any comment to make on either the financial commitment or "livability" of 31 foot design I would appreciate hearing about this. ....Jim Douglas/Vancouver, B.C. To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4749|4689|2004-07-20 11:38:58|Brent Geery|Re: Plate selection|On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" wrote: > Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought > Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my father, a retired > metallurgical engineer. He was suitably impressed with the concept & > made a few suggestions, including that I consider a content of 5% > nickel. He felt that the added cost would still come well under the > cost of building in aluminum(remember that this was a year, or more, > ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to allow for reasonable > weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, he mentioned > chromium, and what percentages. What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, primed and painted in accordance with Brent's instructions, there is no problem with rusting anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look into having the hull flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best protection next to hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly cheap, if you buy the equipment used and then sell it after you finish the job. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4750|4531|2004-07-20 12:13:29|James Douglas|Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|To Colin Yes, I have thought of hammocks too. Given the precautions others take with normal bunks i.e, installation of "lee cloths" sp? I wonder how a fellow in a hammock would fare in really rough weather? I also am a fan of Annie Hill and Junk rigs but believe that Brent's designs are too narrow to carry one. Badger was 11 feet in her beam whereas Brent's 31 is just 10 feet. More importantly was Annie's insights into economical cruising....I'm a bean man now, seriously, pressure cooker and all! I've trimmed all sorts of money off my normal monthly consumption by following some of this woman's tips for living their day to day lives. Some of these "improvements" I'd like to share with the group because ultimately they have to do with actualizing the dream. I nixed smoking... used to be a 2 pack a day man (I know, I know... I was an idiot) saves $5,000 plus per annum. I nixed the car...you can't really travel anywhere bewteen North Vancouver and downtown Vancouver any way for the traffic and someone has always got their hand out for money where ever you go! Saves what ever you spend. Isn't it infuriating to be taken advantage of every time you pull up to a pump? I nixed the T.V. no more cable guy!! Couldn't bear the attitude...wish I could bill three months in advance for my work too!! Started using my mountain bike for 95% of my travel and use buses and taxis as and when I have the need...Mounted pannier bags on the back rack and with this I carry 10% of all my grocers home. The funny bit is that I catch the odd queer look from total strangers... Oh, Look Martha. poor guy loading his groceries on his bike can't afford a car! ...Well as you know..I'd just rather have a boat, thankyou! Full Stop! Also No More Parking Tickets!!! And finally here's an insight for those of you who operate their own companies...increased personal consumption almost always attracts increased levels of personal taxation!! I was particularly attracted to Brent's concepts not just for the practicality of bilge keels and the low maintaince of a steel hull steel but the notion that I could also build most of the fittings and accessories I'd need as well...anchors, self steering, water maker, fireplace, etc. I think that even if I utimately build something else, his plans are probably worth the money just to accomplish the boat's fit out alone!! all the best for now ...Jim| 4751|4689|2004-07-20 12:40:28|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Plate selection|I just bought two Metco flame spray guns on ebay. One is complete with many many spare parts and the other is just the gun. The complete outfit cost me 137US$ and the gun only cost 102US$. Why sell them when you are done keep them around for the grand kids. It looks like the process hasn't changed much since the first one was patented over 100 years ago. I have a 1/2 X 1 meter mild steel plate sprayed with zinc on both sides. It laid next to a sea wall for a year with no visible change. Two months ago I scratched thru the surface down to bare metal. It was then turned over to a five year old to add rock salt and water every day. In the two month period the scratched area has actually closed, I guess with zinc, and no visible signs of rust. A friend has a steel boat built more than 80 years ago that was flame sprayed. No visible signs of rust after all that time. I'm sold! Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" > wrote: > > > Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought > > Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my father, a retired > > metallurgical engineer. He was suitably impressed with the concept & > > made a few suggestions, including that I consider a content of 5% > > nickel. He felt that the added cost would still come well under the > > cost of building in aluminum(remember that this was a year, or more, > > ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to allow for reasonable > > weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, he mentioned > > chromium, and what percentages. > > What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, primed and painted in > accordance with Brent's instructions, there is no problem with rusting > anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look into having the hull > flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best protection next to > hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly cheap, if you buy the > equipment used and then sell it after you finish the job. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films | 4752|4752|2004-07-20 12:43:51|Brent Geery|Questions about auxiliary|I'm really not a mechanical type, so I would love to go with an auxiliary-free boat, but I know my limits. The next best thing will be a reliable *new* diesel engine. Looking at the marine engines, I see they are way out of my price range. However, what about adapting a non-marine engine? SurplusCenter.com has some industrial 23 HP Yanmar diesels for about US$2100. Using skeg cooling, looks like all that I would need to change would be to add a deeper oil sump (probably just buy the one for the marinized equivalent), and fabricate some decent motor mounts. Are these engines up to the task? What about transmission/gearbox? I'm clueless when it comes to engines, so I could use the guidance. :) -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4753|4741|2004-07-20 13:10:54|Gerd|Re: To Gerd|No skills needed, it's a mental condition... -) All you really need is that moment when you say "lets go" and the rest will follow. With origami it will follow very fast and easy, at least in the beginning, but once you got the rough hull together you still have a lot of work and money to invest. Best advice I can give you is GO SAILING first, take a tiny percentage of your overall budget and invest in skippered cruising where you will go on longer blue water runs on very different boats, heavy and light displacement, traditional, catamaran... even, and in particular on those types of boats that you would not choose right now. Don't go for good warm weather beach cruises, find something cold and nasty ;-) go at least 3 times for a week or so. Do it right away, once you start building it will be too late, you will have no money, and because you already have invested your dream into a particular type of boats, you will no longer be free to learn about others. After that you know much better. Until then, listen carefully what people say, but do not become a believer to anybody, not Brent, not Greg, not me, not to any book. Keep an open mind and gos sailing first. Building a boat will probaly change you and your life more more than actually having it. If you want to do it, then just go and DO IT ;-) Gerd the Yago Project, http;//www.justmueller.com/boats/ --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > Dear Gerd > > Congratulations for your YAGO. I can't stop going to your site, > really nice. I wish I had the skills to do something like that. > JPaes | 4754|4742|2004-07-20 13:16:22|spencerj71|Re: Aluminum question|Hi JPaes, Many small skiffs (around 20') are built out of 5052-H32 or H34. It is usually only recommended for these smaller outboard style boats, but I see no reason you couldn't use it to build a sailboat. It is a bit weaker than 5086 or 5083-H116, so you'd have to account for that in the design and you'd end up with a heavier hull, but still much lighter than steel. On the plus side, the 5052 alloy is a bit easier to form and weld. I've never heard of 5052-H38 being used in a marine application, so I'd be wary and make sure ABYC, ABS, the metal boat society, the aluminum association, or some other similar body can recommend this heat treatment of the alloy for marine use. You must be very careful about this, a great number of boats were condemned on the West Coast of the US as they were built of 5083-H32 that was not marine certified (fyi 5083 or 5086-H116 is always marine certified and H32 can be but it must undergo a special test). Whatever alloy you buy, you also probably want to ask for the certs. to verify that they are selling you what they claim to be selling you. Personally, I wouldn't buy aluminum from anyone who didn't have a decent reputation supplying the marine market. If that's not available where you are and you still want to build in aluminum, I'd talk to the mill to make sure your supplier is giving you good stuff. Last year I paid around $2/pound for 5083, prices for 5052 at that time were around $1.75, so sounds like your supplier is in the ball park. Best of luck with your project. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > Hi > > I always thought about having a metal boat and aluminum was my first > choice but when I moved to S. America, the idea of building a boat > out of aLuminum became a big problem. The so called marine alloys > aren't made down here, at least commercialy. You can only get the > 5083 or 5086 alloys under special order and the minimum order they > take is 6 tons. However, you can get the 5052H34 and H38. After some > research, i fopund out that the mechanical charachteristics of both > alloys are very close to the 5083 or 5086. So, I'd like to know wht > you guys think about. Dou you think it's safe to build a boat with > the 5052H38 alloy? the price is about 4 US dollars/ Kilo. On thte > aother side, the price for steel is less than 1 dollar/Kilo. Any > comments on that? | 4755|4755|2004-07-20 13:22:24|Courtney Thomas|Re: Plate selection ->attn: Gerald N.|Gerald, What's to be looked for when buying a gun ? What else is required for it's use ? I've recently seen a couple of guns for sale that vary by a factor of 10X. Why ? Appreciatively, Courtney Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > I just bought two Metco flame spray guns on ebay. One is complete with > many many spare parts and the other is just the gun. The complete > outfit cost me 137US$ and the gun only cost 102US$. Why sell them when > you are done keep them around for the grand kids. It looks like the > process hasn't changed much since the first one was patented over 100 > years ago. > I have a 1/2 X 1 meter mild steel plate sprayed with zinc on both > sides. It laid next to a sea wall for a year with no visible change. > Two months ago I scratched thru the surface down to bare metal. It was > then turned over to a five year old to add rock salt and water every > day. In the two month period the scratched area has actually closed, I > guess with zinc, and no visible signs of rust. > A friend has a steel boat built more than 80 years ago that was flame > sprayed. No visible signs of rust after all that time. > I'm sold! > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > >>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" >>wrote: >> >> >>>Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought >>>Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my father, a retired >>>metallurgical engineer. He was suitably impressed with the concept & >>>made a few suggestions, including that I consider a content of 5% >>>nickel. He felt that the added cost would still come well under the >>>cost of building in aluminum(remember that this was a year, or more, >>>ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to allow for reasonable >>>weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, he mentioned >>>chromium, and what percentages. >>> >>What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, primed and painted in >>accordance with Brent's instructions, there is no problem with rusting >>anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look into having the hull >>flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best protection next to >>hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly cheap, if you buy the >>equipment used and then sell it after you finish the job. >> >>-- >>BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) >> >>Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info >> > http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > >>Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4756|4742|2004-07-20 13:54:44|easy software|Re: Aluminum question|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4757|4755|2004-07-20 13:57:39|easy software|Re: Plate selection ->attn: Gerald N.|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4758|4581|2004-07-20 14:05:57|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Small sailboat capable of circumnavigation|Hi Jim, I'd agree with everything that has been said thus far especially re building in alloy. expensive and specialized. steel is cheaper easier, better known generally and available everywhere.... Had the pleasure of meeting Brent Swain and Winston Bushnell last January. Prices on steel have gone up since then but Brent mentioned $20k for a 36' ready for paint with him doing all the welding (of course I would have to be at it full time as well & there would be lots of grinding etc etc. Winston mentioned it takes about 100 hrs/foot to finnish a boat & he's built 4 or 5 of them (6?) Gord Schnell is building a 40' Brent Boat & has just finnished painting & putting the donk in. He figures for every hour of welding there are 3 hours of grinding. I've been planning to build a steelie since I sold my last boat & reseaching what I can. I figure that I can put a 36' Swain together for about $35k with Brent to help me pull the hull, deck Keel & skeg together (2wks for the basics & 2 weeks for details at some point later after I have the hull basically welded together. Other than that, a very simple boat it will be, good dunnie, donk & self steering, insurance is pumps, line & ground tackle, sails used, have all runnign rigging, standing rigging will be galvanized One bloke mentioned the trade off with keels and he was right on. Each have their advantages & although the prospect of shallow draft & standingup on a beach easy & safe is very tempting, Offshore in a blow a good solid keel below you is a great feeling of security & safety so is 200 imperial gallons of fuel/water in the keel & more storage Bummer about the Mrs. mate but boats are harder to get than wives Good Luck! Shane -- ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4760|4531|2004-07-20 14:13:17|sae140|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi Robert What you say has much truth, but if you read my post in context then perhaps my comments are justified. From what Jim has told us, he is probably in his mid 50's, and having been employed in a sedentary occupation for some time is probably not very fit. (All assumptions, I agree). Also, to be asking basic questions suggests that he may not have much sea-time in. He also appears to be planning to sail solo. My post was written with these thoughts in mind. Maybe I did over- state the case a bit, but there does seem to be a trend towards folk buying or building boats that have developed a reputation for seaworthiness that the tyro also expects to be safe sailing in, soley because of the reputation the boat has gained *with an experienced skipper onboard*. You clearly have a lot of experience yourself, and indeed that is my very point - you have the experience to know what is right for you. Someone who needs to ask what may be right for them very likely does not to have this experience, and as much as I have a pathological dislike of accountants (), I'd hate to see Jim come to harm on the briny, or be put off his dream ambitions for lack of a prior appreciation of just how uncomfortable life can be on passage (as well as how bloody wonderful). I chose the examples I did, precisely *because* they are well-known, but was very careful to include the caveat "(although not always)", for as Phil points out Robin Graham (and others) circumnavigated at a very early age. But of course youth is usually (although again, not always) accompanied by fitness. Speaking from a personal point of view, I have a deep regret that I didn't take up serious sailing 30 or 40 years ago. And as age is unfortunately accompanied by stiffness and a general reduction in strength etc, one needs to develop an appreciation of one's limitations *before* casting off. I think Jim and I are probably in the same boat on this one. But no doubt someone will be reminding me of Francis Chichester ... for yes, there are always exceptions. Last thought on the circumnav - a lot depends on the route on course ... there's a world of difference between Panama and the Horn/Southern Ocean. Well out of my league. Regards, Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > Colin has most of the analysis about the boats correct. His thoughts on the > people involved I think are wrong. The ones you hear about are the extreme > examples. The more common families or individuals that do it are not > reported in the press. In my sailing I have meet many that were cruising on > what I guess is an average size of 30 to 35 feet. I have lived (3 years) on > a boat as small as a 26 foot O'Day and done a trans-Atlantic on a boat as > small as 22 feet. I have extensive experience in trans oceanic cruising in a > 22, 27, 31 and 110-foot boats. The size of the boat you need is in > proportion to the amount of creature comforts that you want. It's not any > more complicated then that. If you don't want to carry very much you can be > very happy in a 30 footer. People have cruised very comfortably in 26 foot > on up. The only one that can decide how large a boat you need is you, the > person that will use the boat. > All the best; > Robert Gainer > > > > > >From: "sae140" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation > >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 09:21:03 -0000 > > > >Hi Jim > > > >just stickin' my oar in on this thread. > > > >First - the "sailing around the world in small boats" stuff. > > > >I think it's misleading to hold on to the idea that many small boats > >have successfully sailed around the world. To the best of my > >knowledge no small boat has ever sailed itself around the world. > >What *has* happened, is that there have been certain individuals - > >often supremely fit, ex-special forces types (although not always), > >well used to discomfort, deprivation and hardship - who have sailed > >around the world, and sometimes they've done this in small boats. As > >examples, Tilman (of Mischief fame) and most of his crew were > >mountaineers; Hasler, Mcloud and Duxbury (of Drascombe Lugger fame) > >were all ex-Navy, with years of sea-time. > > > >In my opinion, if people focussed more on the individuals concerned, > >rather than on the boats they used, then they'd perhaps develop a > >better understanding of the issues involved in ocean sailing. The > >number of people who build or buy boats which are in some way > >associated with the bold exploits of some experienced mariner or > >other, are legion - as if in some magical way the ownership of such a > >design will somehow provide them with a guarantee of safety. > > > >The marinas around this and other countries coastlines are full of > >boats which never venture out to sea. I believe this is because a > >significant disparity between the dreams and the reality of sailing > >are discovered after the boat has been acquired. > >In particular, sailing and comfort are not really synonymous. Sure - > >the bigger the boat then the more 'comfort' is possible, but it's > >still pretty thin on the ground. > > > >5' 11" and 250 lbs isn't exceptional (I'm 6' 4" and 230 lbs), but > >ideally you'll need two bunks (one either side) for max convenience. > >Or maybe - think "hammock" when underway .... unusual, but guys did > >use 'em for centuries. > > > >Length alone isn't necessarily the best yardstick by which to judge > >accomodation: length and displacement - together with useable height - > > is better. But nothing beats taking a look inside a particular boat > >to get the best feel for it's size. > > > >At the risk of saying the obvious, then for extended distance > >sailing, load carrying capacity is important - and for that reason > >alone the 31 would be a better bet than the 26. > > > >Another point worth considering is that the 'best' (unqualified) boat > >for deep oceans isn't necessarily the best boat for mooching around > >coastlines, so there's always a need for compromise regarding keels > >and draft, engines etc. In my view the Swain boats represent the > >best compromise for all-round sailing. I'd prefer a 6' draft long- > >keel for offshore, but retractable keels for close in. Imho, the > >Swain twin bilge keel and skeg is the best all-round compromise, > >especially with shallow anchorages and maintenance in mind. My only > >negative criticism is that I'd like to see gaff cutter and junk rig > >options on offer, for us aging old farts who need rigs which are > >easier to work, especially single-handed. > > > >With regard to capital outlay, then doing the work yourself is by far > >the best option - which suggests a steel hull rather than aluminium. > >Remember that the cost of fittings can be very high unless you > >make 'em yourself. With your accountancy skills, there should always > >be some kind of work wherever you make port, so a bare-bones > >hull "finish as you go" strategy sounds like a winner, and you could > >then cruise for far less than you're budgetting for, with a suitable > >change in mind set (if this takes your fancy). > > > >Hope there may be at least one little pearl of wisdom somewhere in > >the above. Good luck with whatever you decide. > > > >Colin > > > >PS - if you haven't already read Annie Hill's "Voyaging on a Small > >Income", you might find this relevant to your ambitions. Their 34ft > >double ender probably has equivalent accomodation space to a Swain 31 > >footer with transom. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! > http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ | 4762|4531|2004-07-20 14:18:47|sae140|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|> Started using my mountain bike for 95% of my travel Whoops - sorry Jim, some of my assumptions were a bit short of the mark ..... Colin| 4763|4744|2004-07-20 14:26:28|sae140|Re: Being real|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > I think a couple of the guys have hit on a real point with the design and ACTUAL useage > most our boats will get. I have wondered why people will build outstanding cruising yachts > and only to sell them a couple of years(months) later, ie Buehlers' Rusty Duck, is one > example. The Benford dory "Moondancer" dying on the hard in Florida is another ..... I agree - a long hard think before getting the welding set out is a d&mn@d good idea. Colin| 4765|4531|2004-07-20 14:33:52|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Jim: I suggested that you have a chat with one of the instructors at B.C.I.T. so that you would feel confident in making your decision. My recommendations - as a welder/weld inspector, x-navy/x-coast guard, offshore sailor(Indonesia-Philippines,Victoria-Maui & east coast of Canada) - would be to build Brent's 31 footer, in steel, with bilge keels. I hope that Brent, Alex, etc., read this post & weigh-in with their estimates on cost of building. You will find that you will spend a ton of money on safety gear and that everything marine-related costs a lot. familiarize yourself with "Popeye's" marine store, behind mosquito creek marina, in North Van(WARNING:don't take your wallet with you on your first couple of visits!). If you have the time, drive out to Harbour Yacht Sales in West Vancouver(marine drive, just past thunderbird marina & the yacht club, and ask Ray Donaldson if you could take a look at "Dove III", a BS27. You will want to take a celestial navigation course. It has been my experience that many offshore sailors don't know how to use a sextant, though they carry one, or more.(idiots!) I think that your budget is bare-bones but realistic. You may even find a local member whom would be interested in sharing costs on building location, equipment, etc., and others, like myself, whom would be willing to drop by and help out for the price of a cold beer & some interesting conversation. That's the beauty of the sailing world; good people/good times and things get even better as you get further from home. By the way, your welcome to use my property to build, but it is in the Prince George area, so, you'd have to transport the boat about 800 Km to launch in Prince Rupert. Sorry to hear about your marital situation, though, sometimes I'd like to have the freedom of the single life. My own plan to "sail around the world" was delayed when my wife wimped-out at the last minute. Next time she says the boat has to go or she will, I'm going to buy her a one- way ticket to anywhere. Annie Hall's book is an interesting one. There are a lot of good books on building, sailing, living aboard. My favourite is Robin Lee Graham's book about his circumnavigation on "Dove"; I couldn't count the number of times I've read it. Good Luck! feel free to hound the group with questions, no matter how foolish you might feel they are(the questions, not the group members). In this group you will get two, or more, schools of thought on any topic; from efficient toenail cutting to exploding hulls. Regards, Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > To Mike, I generally go by Jim rather than James. My e-mail address > was initially set up for my research and development company and so > presented my formal name to the public. Perhaps you may use Michael > rather than Mike in a similar way. > > Yes, I would be most interested in anything you can find out from > your B.C.I.T. insructor friend about students' success in welding > aluminum alloy. I am a tax accountant by profession and so my "shop" > experience with welding steel is not a lot and is non-existent with > alloy. > > I had been looking at Brent's steel boats with two objectives in > mind. One to build a smaller offshore capable, tough as nails boat > in steel that I could sail with confidence around the world. The > other would be a larger boat someday off in the future to serve as > my home here on the west coast. > > Having recenly suffered the ravages of marital breakdown and > separation, I do not have a lot of money to make my get away!! I > have a good 10 years of working life ahead but would rather not > spend all of it working!! It's been a rather long swim so far... > > My financial propects might (if I'm awfully good and pray a lot!!) > generate savings something in the order of $30,000 to 40,000 over > the next six to nine months and I'll need at least $10,000 for a > cruising budget. $20,000 to $30,000 just is not going to do an > alloy boat!! And I had hoped to get something bigger than 26 feet in > Steel which might be a tall order on the remaimg sum but I might be > able to finagle an extra 5 or 10 G's from somewhere to squeek > through. Is $25 to $35,000 going to be enough for a no frills 31 > footer? > > I might well expect to do this if I bought an older fiberglass boat > but I just would not have the reassurance of steel. Foam sandwich > in a cataraman might offer peace of mind in that she won't sink > but.... > > Spacially, I'm looking to have a decent bunk (I'm 5'11" and 250 > lbs.) Might this be a double for comfort in port?; a place to cook & > eat (single or double burner stove)(storage for pressure cooker and > food dehydrator)(sufficient food storage); a decent head with > perhaps a shower. Plus also inside navigation area....all of which > might be a lot to ask even for Brent's 31 foot size although he > apparently does very well with this size of boat. > > If any one has any comment to make on either the financial > commitment or "livability" of 31 foot design I would appreciate > hearing about this. > > ....Jim Douglas/Vancouver, B.C. | 4766|4742|2004-07-20 14:45:43|David K McComber|Re: Aluminum question|As I understand it all the 5,000 series aluminum is good for building boats, it is just some are better then others. I believe that 5052 is considered the old alloy that was used extensively to build boats. The 5058 is a little stronger, but if the difference in strength is taken into consideration it should be all right. It would be advisable to check with the designer!!! David McComber d.mccomber@... -----Original Message----- From: jp4sail [mailto:jp4sail@...] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 9:26 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Aluminum question Hi I always thought about having a metal boat and aluminum was my first choice but when I moved to S. America, the idea of building a boat out of aLuminum became a big problem. The so called marine alloys aren't made down here, at least commercialy. You can only get the 5083 or 5086 alloys under special order and the minimum order they take is 6 tons. However, you can get the 5052H34 and H38. After some research, i fopund out that the mechanical charachteristics of both alloys are very close to the 5083 or 5086. So, I'd like to know wht you guys think about. Dou you think it's safe to build a boat with the 5052H38 alloy? the price is about 4 US dollars/ Kilo. On thte aother side, the price for steel is less than 1 dollar/Kilo. Any comments on that? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4768|4689|2004-07-20 14:49:53|Mike|Re: Plate selection|Brent: Thanks. As I am building in the southern Philippines, I don't know if the equipment will be readily available. As I will be back & forth between Canada & the Philippines, I won't be on hand to repair every scrape or dent after it happens. Regards, Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: what's the point? Once the steel is blasted, primed and painted in > accordance with Brent's instructions, there is no problem with rusting > anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look into having the hull > flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best protection next to > hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly cheap, if you buy the > equipment used and then sell it after you finish the job. | 4770|4691|2004-07-20 14:57:15|edward_stoneuk|Re: Shaping hulls|Robert, Compressed air is dangerous. Because it compresses it can store energy like a spring. I have seen a man lying on the ground with his leg broken due to the air hose on an air track drill coming off and flailing about untill it hit him. People have been killed inflating repaired truck tyres when the split rim has been blown off. Truck tyre repair shops have cages for the inflation of repaired tyres. Hydraulics is different. Water or oil does not compress. Hydraulic tools have been used to form motorcycle mufflers. The oil is inside the tube, which is then forced out to the mould. The steel has to be forced past its elastic limit so that it does not spring back. Regards, Ted| 4772|4745|2004-07-20 15:01:56|Henri Naths|Re: Bullet proof Boats|LOL,LOL....H ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil S. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 20 July, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Bullet proof Boats I have been reading with some interest Greg's tirade on Skeg strength with some reservations, I have met Greg, he seems to be a nice, genuine guy, with real concerns. I think the point he is missing, we are all maybe, how strong is a production boat of similar size. A "Frozen Snot" boat wouldn't stand up to 1/10th the abuse a BS hull would and do it with no perceptible damage. So lets not argure over something that in reality isn't really broke. regards Phil To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4775|4775|2004-07-20 15:06:55|De Clarke|OT: moondancer|Is Moondancer still rotting in FL? I almost bought that boat a year or so ago. I wish someone would -- she is a nice boat and doesn't deserve her fate. de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:| 4776|4776|2004-07-20 15:21:57|edward_stoneuk|Log Attack|Greg, I feel you may find this insight useful so I am posting it to await your return. Having looked at the photos of the skegs on your design JM 50 (Gregs Skegs in the photo section) I can understand your concern about the effect of a log hitting the skeg and stopping the boat dead. Unlike other designs of skegs which slope back so tending to ride up and over any impediment thus dissipating most of the energy, your skegs bases slope forward like a hook. Although there is a reinforcing aluminium tube between the tip of the hook and a bracket attach to the hull further forward it has a dog- leg in it. This means that the boat, perhaps turning slightly and hitting an end-on log with the bent aluminium tube could cause the tube to be bent to one side allowing the log to get hooked on the skeg stopping the boat dead with serious consequences to the occupants as they carried on forward at the previous boat speed. You will be able to calculate as to what height of building one would have to jump off head first to mimic the effect of a log or other impediment jamming on your hooked skegs when the vessel is travelling at hull speed. Regards, Ted| 4780|4531|2004-07-20 15:39:46|sae140|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > To Colin > > Yes, I have thought of hammocks too. Given the precautions others > take with normal bunks i.e, installation of "lee cloths" sp? I > wonder how a fellow in a hammock would fare in really rough weather? A hammock in a blow ? It'd certainly be interesting ...(!) I've often thought that carrying a hammock (or two) would be a solution for those with limited bunks who are expecting occasional visitors. I find lee cloths a mixed blessing - useful, but can be claustrophobic and if full length can restrict the air flow around the head (headaches, blocked sinuses) - but if you're on someone else's boat, you gotta make do. Don't know why netting isn't used for lee cloths - errr "lee nets". Netting can also useful to keep flying objects (books etc) in place - but doesn't seem to be used much for this either. Although I much prefer to be jammed-in somewhere nice and tight when the sea gets lumpy, I can also see that a full webbing harness (made from old car seat belts ?) would be really neat to hold you firmly - or loosely - into your bunk. Never done this, it's just a tempting idea. Stay in your bunk, even during a 360 (perish the thought). More uses for seat belt webbing: sacrifical wear strips on grp dinghy bottoms (have just done this to mine), safety harnesses, galley straps, sail reinforcement (pity about the colour), dinghy tie- downs - there must be more. Junk rig/ beam - have just taken a peek at the examples given in PJR around the 30ft mark: Redlapper (30ft LOA, 26 LWL) had a beam of just 8' 6", Galway Blazer (42ft LOA, 30ft LWL) had a beam of 10' 6", Yeong 30ft LOA, (25ft LWL) had a beam of 9ft, and the Wylo II junk has a beam of 10ft, so there may be some latitude regarding acceptable beam, if this rig appeals. Best wishes, Colin| 4781|4531|2004-07-20 15:45:09|Robert Gainer|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Mike said You will want to take a celestial navigation course. It has been my experience that many offshore sailors don't know how to use a sextant, though they carry one, or more.(idiots!) Mike; When I decided to sail trans-Atlantic in 1974 in a 22� Sea Sprite I talked to someone in Providence, Rhode Island that was preparing for his first crossing and among other thing navigation was discussed. His theory was that it would take at least 30 days to get near any land and he would take a sextant and a book on how to use it. In his spare time before landfall he could teach himself all he needed to know. He had a taffrail log and that would provide a double check on when to start looking for land. I gather that he learned how to do the sight and the steps necessarily to reduce it and plot the answer. Unfortunately he didn�t know when he departed that you need a nautical almanac and tables to work out any thing other then the sample problems in the book. The taffrail log was almost right on, but he still run up on the Channel Islands in the night. The boat was a total loss. After that, a quick study of celestial navigation was definitely in the plan. I learned 211 (Ageton), 229 and 249. I selected H.O. 211 to use because on a 22 foot boat the physical size of the tables made a difference. I used a 13-dollar (at that time) Davis sextant and Timex wristwatch. I made landfall � mile north of Bishop Rock Light, off the Scilly Isles after sailing for 59 days, from East Greenwich, Rhode Island. My plan was to make landfall � mile south of the light. By the way, I now sail with two sextants. One is a Cassens & Plath that rarely sees the light of day and the other is a Freiberger that I use for day-to-day work. But you now the funny thing is I don�t feel like an idiot. All the best; Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/| 4782|4691|2004-07-20 16:09:07|Robert Gainer|Re: Shaping hulls|Ted; I appreciate your concern about compressed air and it�s worth the mention because all of us may not be aware of its power. When I was in high school I had a part time job of testing pressure tanks for Freon. The procedure was to fill the tank with water and then with a hydraulic pump add pressure until it burst. When it failed it just split, no noise no explosion. I was in a rush to get out one day to join some friends for a sailboat race and just filled it up half way with water to save time. When it burst it destroyed the pressure test gauge and blew the side out of the safety box the test was preformed in. All the ceiling tiles in the test room and most from the office next door were knocked down. The room filled with the dust that came from above the ceiling tiles. You cannot believe how much dust came from the production side of the building and settled on the top of the tiles. My ears rang for what seemed like weeks after that. I think the only reason that I wasn�t fired on the spot was that I was the foredeck man on the company�s owners boat. All the best; Robert Gainer >From: "edward_stoneuk" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Shaping hulls >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 18:56:15 -0000 > >Robert, > >Compressed air is dangerous. Because it compresses it can store >energy like a spring. I have seen a man lying on the ground with >his leg broken due to the air hose on an air track drill coming off >and flailing about untill it hit him. >People have been killed inflating repaired truck tyres when the >split rim has been blown off. Truck tyre repair shops have cages for >the inflation of repaired tyres. > >Hydraulics is different. Water or oil does not compress. Hydraulic >tools have been used to form motorcycle mufflers. The oil is inside >the tube, which is then forced out to the mould. The steel has to >be forced past its elastic limit so that it does not spring back. > >Regards, > >Ted > _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/| 4784|4745|2004-07-20 16:39:46|Robert Gainer|Re: Bullet proof Boats|I wonder if the thing that is missing in all of this verbalizing is the understanding that one person has the mind of an innovator and artist and the other has the mind of an engineer and mathematician. The engineers mind sees the inefficiency of designing a structure that has one part with different yield strength then the whole. After all it doesn�t make any sense to design something that is 100% of the strength that you anticipate needing and then making one part of it less then that. The artist can get it done by eye and after all is said and done it works fine. The engineer must put numbers to it and everything must be in line with what he feels is needed to stand the stress. The artist has a structure that is not efficient and the engineer has a structure that is efficient but is designed to his idea of what the stress will be. That is I think the basic question, what numbers do you use if you want to do an analysis and engineer the structure. You can have a heavy boat or a light boat and no one can say one is wrong or right, it depends and what you want. Why don�t we get back to more interesting things and pass this by. All the best; Robert Gainer >From: "Henri Naths" >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bullet proof Boats >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:01:48 -0600 > >LOL,LOL....H > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Phil S. > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 20 July, 2004 8:46 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] Bullet proof Boats > > > I have been reading with some interest Greg's tirade on Skeg strength >with some > reservations, I have met Greg, he seems to be a nice, genuine guy, with >real concerns. I > think the point he is missing, we are all maybe, how strong is a >production boat of similar > size. A "Frozen Snot" boat wouldn't stand up to 1/10th the abuse a BS >hull would and do it > with no perceptible damage. So lets not argure over something that in >reality isn't really > broke. > regards > Phil > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >Service. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/| 4787|4775|2004-07-20 17:51:00|Henri Naths|Re: OT: moondancer|any links to the boat? ----- Original Message ----- From: De Clarke To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 20 July, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: [origamiboats] OT: moondancer Is Moondancer still rotting in FL? I almost bought that boat a year or so ago. I wish someone would -- she is a nice boat and doesn't deserve her fate. de ............................................................................. :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC: :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid : :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut : :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E: To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4788|4705|2004-07-20 17:52:41|brentswain38|Re: junk rig origami ? junk with bilge keels?|for Bella Via Jack bought one of my 36 foot hulls which had been built as a double ender, cut it in half and added 8 ft in the midddle and gave it a junk rig. Brent. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin > wrote: > > > > murraycamp wrote: > > > > > i saw the photo of the Bella Via > > > > > > is Gazelle the name of your boat or the design? (Colville?) > > > what size is she? > > > > > > I'm headed up island soon, i'd love to walk by the docks and > have a look.. > > > > > > m. > > > > > > > Thomas Colvin design. 42'. It will be going in the water in a week > or two. > > steve > > If you look up the BuySell for B.C. for sailboats (search under > Yahoo for it) there is a 40 foot steel junk for sale this month > which was apparently built to be a replica of Allan Farrel's famed > China Cloud. | 4791|4752|2004-07-20 18:06:31|Brent Geery|Re: Questions about auxiliary|Now that Brent is around, I wanted to ask what HP range is recommended for your 26 footer? For that matter, for the sake of getting the info into the archive, what HP ranges do you suggest for all your standard sizes? -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4792|4792|2004-07-20 18:13:07|Henri Naths|(no subject)|No, I thought it was I that said something,lol. I checked my address book and no strange names....anyway I was saying I could never figure out t he name until Brent's post ..(Build a boat in secret,move aboard, abandon the consumer society, cut your cost of living by 90%, and go cruising . I always thought "Court of Appeal" would be a good name for a boat.I've met a lot of people out cruising who did just that.) That shed some light and the name clicked. H. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 20 July, 2004 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! Maybe I will have to use my wifes computer to get a message through to you. Did I say something that caused you to block me out ? When you get hacked I believe that the address book is usually one of the target areas. Others will know a lot more about this than me. At least you can read them from the deleted section. I use outlook express with a firewall and Norton virus protection that is always up to date. My day job is in the financial and insurance business and I need to be online often checking accounts. My last words on the Court of Appeal were wondering where she might be. I think she was about 35 to 37 feet, steel full keel and darkish green. She could only have gone West and that means the Vancouver area. Anybody seen the boat. She would have splashed in about 2 years ago. She was just off the freeway East of Chilliwack and was there for about 25 years. ----- Original Message ----- From: Henri Naths To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 9:49 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! hey Michael, How come your email address is always popping up in my blocked senders list and your posting end up in my deleted file. I'm on outlook express, I think I got hacked,on or about the 20 of June ( we were talking about the Court Of Appeal") I managed to restore everthing ( like a bull in a china shop, a lot of crashing and banging and snorting..lol) except for that. Any suggestions. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Casling To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 19 July, 2004 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Greg's holidays!!!! Could the duration please be extended. I really do not like to pick on anyone so I try and be polite, even so it is possible via this medium to convey the wrong message, for that I apologise. However I am pleased that I am not the only one who has found Gregs posts out of line. I believe he raised an issue in an attempt to dicredit another person and he persisted when he should have quit. It was not up to him to be asking and almost demanding a response. The answer could be found in Brents book. I found that simple questions to Greg about who designed what were left unanswered and obscured with mumbo jumbo. He likely has a lot of knowledge and is keen to promote himself, and may just be suffering from too much enthusiasm. Some days it is not easy to get your message heard and some budding salesmen may go beyond good taste. I hope all my fellow boaters are getting lots of time out on the water in whatever boat suits their style. Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4795|4775|2004-07-20 18:37:49|sae140|Re: OT: moondancer|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > any links to the boat? The original site: http://www.sonic.net/~mwpotter/moondancer.html is now dead .. so maybe it's been sold at last. I hope so. Was on the hard for ages. If you check out: http://www.sonic.net/~mwpotter/ you'll get some idea of Whitney's skills. Impressive. Whitney can be contacted at: witpot@... (remove NOSPAM first). See: http://www.ucolick.org/~de/boat/MoonDancer/ for a first class collection of photographs and commentary. BTW - Alex is aware of Greg's autoresponder and will deal with it. But - changes to email settings sometimes take a couple of days to take effect. C| 4797|4797|2004-07-20 18:43:10|sae140|Moondancer link|Mmmmm - seems that Yahoo has some kind of protection in place. Try again. witpotATNOSPAMsonic.net (change AT to @, and remove NOSPAM) C| 4798|4798|2004-07-20 18:50:55|Glenn Cramond|Compressed air|There's a tragic pic showimg the result of a compressed air accident on http://www.metalbashatorium.com/safety.htm The accident resulted from a person inflating a truck tyre. Glenn| 4799|4799|2004-07-20 18:54:23|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: China Cloud replica in Buy & sell|Just checked buy & sell....not there anymore.....bummer. ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4803|4755|2004-07-20 20:47:00|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Plate selection ->attn: Gerald N.|When you say 10X, I would assume you mean 10 times the prices that I quoted? I have not yet set up a system. However, as soon as the equipment arrives down here from the states I will set it up. I have flame sprayed a square meter area with zinc using another persons gun. About like spray painting only much slower. Here are a couple of sites that probably tell you more than you want to know? http://webpages.dcu.ie/~stokesjt/ThermalSpraying/Book/HVOFThermalSpraying.htm http://www.corrosion.com/thermal.html It is my understanding that wire guns are the way to go for large areas. The information I got down here was that powder spraying is much much more costly than wire. There are many sites on the web that explain how the process works. Seems like the cheapest way to apply, short of heating and rubbing powdered metal on by hand, is the oxygen / acetylene / compressed air / wire gun. The guns that I purchased and the one I used have air motors inside the gun to pull the wire. The wire is pushed thru a flame, the wire turns to liquid, compressed air shoots in from the side to turn the liquid metal into a vapor. If you go into ebay and type in "Metco" you will probably see several guns for sale in the near future. I just checked and there aren't any Metco wire guns on the board right now. Hope this helps. However, there are folks here that know much more about the subject than I, with my 30 minutes actual experience. Brent wrote that he had once sprayed a boat. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Gerald, > > What's to be looked for when buying a gun ? > > What else is required for it's use ? > > I've recently seen a couple of guns for sale that vary by a factor of > 10X. Why ? > > Appreciatively, > > Courtney > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > I just bought two Metco flame spray guns on ebay. One is complete with > > many many spare parts and the other is just the gun. The complete > > outfit cost me 137US$ and the gun only cost 102US$. Why sell them when > > you are done keep them around for the grand kids. It looks like the > > process hasn't changed much since the first one was patented over 100 > > years ago. > > I have a 1/2 X 1 meter mild steel plate sprayed with zinc on both > > sides. It laid next to a sea wall for a year with no visible change. > > Two months ago I scratched thru the surface down to bare metal. It was > > then turned over to a five year old to add rock salt and water every > > day. In the two month period the scratched area has actually closed, I > > guess with zinc, and no visible signs of rust. > > A friend has a steel boat built more than 80 years ago that was flame > > sprayed. No visible signs of rust after all that time. > > I'm sold! > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > > > >>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" > >>wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought > >>>Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my father, a retired > >>>metallurgical engineer. He was suitably impressed with the concept & > >>>made a few suggestions, including that I consider a content of 5% > >>>nickel. He felt that the added cost would still come well under the > >>>cost of building in aluminum(remember that this was a year, or more, > >>>ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to allow for reasonable > >>>weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, he mentioned > >>>chromium, and what percentages. > >>> > >>What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, primed and painted in > >>accordance with Brent's instructions, there is no problem with rusting > >>anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look into having the hull > >>flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best protection next to > >>hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly cheap, if you buy the > >>equipment used and then sell it after you finish the job. > >> > >>-- > >>BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > >> > >>Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info > >> > > http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > > > >>Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4805|4745|2004-07-20 21:21:15|Henri Naths|Re: Bullet proof Boats|Robert, Thanks,very insighful, I think you nailed it, it's good to respect the difference...H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Gainer" To: Sent: 20 July, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bullet proof Boats > I wonder if the thing that is missing in all of this verbalizing is the > understanding that one person has the mind of an innovator and artist and > the other has the mind of an engineer and mathematician. The engineers mind > sees the inefficiency of designing a structure that has one part with > different yield strength then the whole. After all it doesn't make any sense > to design something that is 100% of the strength that you anticipate needing > and then making one part of it less then that. The artist can get it done by > eye and after all is said and done it works fine. The engineer must put > numbers to it and everything must be in line with what he feels is needed to > stand the stress. The artist has a structure that is not efficient and the > engineer has a structure that is efficient but is designed to his idea of > what the stress will be. That is I think the basic question, what numbers do > you use if you want to do an analysis and engineer the structure. You can > have a heavy boat or a light boat and no one can say one is wrong or right, > it depends and what you want. Why don't we get back to more interesting > things and pass this by. > All the best; > Robert Gainer > > > > >From: "Henri Naths" > >Reply-To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Bullet proof Boats > >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 13:01:48 -0600 > > > >LOL,LOL....H > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Phil S. > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: 20 July, 2004 8:46 AM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Bullet proof Boats > > > > > > I have been reading with some interest Greg's tirade on Skeg strength > >with some > > reservations, I have met Greg, he seems to be a nice, genuine guy, with > >real concerns. I > > think the point he is missing, we are all maybe, how strong is a > >production boat of similar > > size. A "Frozen Snot" boat wouldn't stand up to 1/10th the abuse a BS > >hull would and do it > > with no perceptible damage. So lets not argure over something that in > >reality isn't really > > broke. > > regards > > Phil > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > >Service. > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4807|4531|2004-07-20 22:06:59|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Robert: From what I just read, you learned how to use a sextant. You didn't just rely on your electronic nav. equip. to take you across the Atlantic, right? I have met "sailors" in Asia who had travelled thousands of miles across the oceans without any idea of how to use a sextant. I'm sorry but, to me, that's an idiot. In the same bag as the "mariner" who navigates with a road map. I've taken chances navigating boats that would be considered by many to be "ill- equipped", but I am not foolish enough to place myself in situations at sea where a lack of sufficient knowledge would place me in harm's way, and I think that any sailor with half-a-brain would agree. Did I misunderstand your post response, or are you just looking for an argument? Regards, Mike P.S. It sounds like your friend was a few bricks short of a load. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: "... Unfortunately he didn't know when he departed that you > need a nautical almanac and tables to work out any thing other then the > sample problems in the book..." | 4809|4809|2004-07-20 22:24:12|rockrothwell|Aries Wind Vane for sale|Hi All, I have an origonal model Aries Wind Vane for sale, completely rebuilt, all it needs is mounting and final balancing & your off. Also included is all the bumff from Nick & Helen Franklin| 4811|4752|2004-07-20 22:42:43|John Cupp|Re: Questions about auxiliary|Unfortunately there are many types of diesel engines that can be sold surplus. Sometimes they are stationary engines used for generators. The problem with them is that their pump is set to run at a specific rpm and they need to be reworked to be used as a variable rpm motor. I am a diesel mechanic and I have made many waps in my life. You can get very good Mercedes diesel engines from rail car refrigeration units. Thay work very well in a boat. You must change the pump on these also. The engine that I want to place in my next boat is the Volkswagen TDI diesel that they put in their new Bug and Jetta models. It needs the computer reworked but it has one of the lowest fuel consumption standards that make it a natural. Another big plus it is a very light diesel motor. It is best to find a diesel pump and injector supply store near you and ask as many questions as possible. If you can find a Saab diesel with the variable pitch prop at a decent price buy it. They can be hand started and they need no transmission. The prop makes the boat go forward and backward plus it can be positioned to provides no drag while sailing. In my part of the country they are rare but I may find one. I plan on making a boat at least 40' but I could go even larger if I find a plan that I like. More important than the engine is the prop. Get some quality help with your choice and listen to what they say. Most people don't take the advice and end up with a big motor and a small prop when they needed a small motor and big prop. Take care and do a lot of home work. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > I'm really not a mechanical type, so I would love to go with an > auxiliary-free boat, but I know my limits. The next best thing will > be a reliable *new* diesel engine. > > Looking at the marine engines, I see they are way out of my price > range. However, what about adapting a non-marine engine? > SurplusCenter.com has some industrial 23 HP Yanmar diesels for about > US$2100. Using skeg cooling, looks like all that I would need to > change would be to add a deeper oil sump (probably just buy the one > for the marinized equivalent), and fabricate some decent motor mounts. > > Are these engines up to the task? What about transmission/gearbox? > I'm clueless when it comes to engines, so I could use the guidance. :) > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4816|4752|2004-07-21 07:38:06|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Questions about auxiliary|John You mention installing a VW in your next boat and mention also that you will need to rework the computer. I have a new VW 1.9 in one of my boats. It has no computer. The only electronics are the starter and fuel shut off. I think it is a 1Y? I am told that the are sold in Canada in Gol's or maybe Golf's? The motor is manufactured here in Brazil not far from where I live. I bought it still in the crate for under 2.000US$. I am installing a Yanmar in my steel boat but the next steel boat will get a VW, which I personally consider a better all around choice than the heavy Yanmar. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > Unfortunately there are many types of diesel engines that can be sold > surplus. Sometimes they are stationary engines used for generators. > The problem with them is that their pump is set to run at a specific > rpm and they need to be reworked to be used as a variable rpm motor. > I am a diesel mechanic and I have made many waps in my life. You can > get very good Mercedes diesel engines from rail car refrigeration > units. Thay work very well in a boat. You must change the pump on > these also. > > The engine that I want to place in my next boat is the Volkswagen TDI > diesel that they put in their new Bug and Jetta models. It needs the > computer reworked but it has one of the lowest fuel consumption > standards that make it a natural. Another big plus it is a very > light diesel motor. > > It is best to find a diesel pump and injector supply store near you > and ask as many questions as possible. If you can find a Saab diesel > with the variable pitch prop at a decent price buy it. They can be > hand started and they need no transmission. The prop makes the boat > go forward and backward plus it can be positioned to provides no drag > while sailing. In my part of the country they are rare but I may > find one. I plan on making a boat at least 40' but I could go even > larger if I find a plan that I like. > > More important than the engine is the prop. Get some quality help > with your choice and listen to what they say. Most people don't take > the advice and end up with a big motor and a small prop when they > needed a small motor and big prop. > > Take care and do a lot of home work. > > John Cupp > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery > wrote: > > I'm really not a mechanical type, so I would love to go with an > > auxiliary-free boat, but I know my limits. The next best thing will > > be a reliable *new* diesel engine. > > > > Looking at the marine engines, I see they are way out of my price > > range. However, what about adapting a non-marine engine? > > SurplusCenter.com has some industrial 23 HP Yanmar diesels for about > > US$2100. Using skeg cooling, looks like all that I would need to > > change would be to add a deeper oil sump (probably just buy the one > > for the marinized equivalent), and fabricate some decent motor > mounts. > > > > Are these engines up to the task? What about transmission/gearbox? > > I'm clueless when it comes to engines, so I could use the > guidance. :) > > > > -- > > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info > http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American > Films | 4818|4531|2004-07-21 09:06:14|Robert Gainer|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Mike said Did I misunderstand your post response, or are you just looking for an argument? snip P.S. It sounds like your friend was a few bricks short of a load. Mike; I am sorry that I wrote the last line of my post in a way that you could misunderstand my attempt at humor. Writing is not my best subject so please accept my apologies. The idiot (not friend) I used as an example was just someone who was planning the same trip, and I hoped to get some benefit from his research and planning. I discarded him as source of information for obvious reasons. He does offer a good example of the lack of planning and intelligence of some people that are sailing around on the oceans. I hoped that some would find the account of interest and get a good laugh. All the best; Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/| 4820|4755|2004-07-21 13:56:07|Roger Allman|Re: Plate selection ->attn: Gerald N.|Does sprayed aluminum have the same structural strength as a plate of aluminum of the same grade and thickness? i.e. can one build a mold and spray the hull using several applications. Or bet yet alternate layers of metals (say steel, AL, CuNi) to produce a strong, lightweight, corrosion resistant hull with no welds. --- Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > When you say 10X, I would assume you mean 10 times > the prices that I > quoted? I have not yet set up a system. However, as > soon as the > equipment arrives down here from the states I will > set it up. I have > flame sprayed a square meter area with zinc using > another persons gun. > About like spray painting only much slower. Here are > a couple of sites > that probably tell you more than you want to know? > > http://webpages.dcu.ie/~stokesjt/ThermalSpraying/Book/HVOFThermalSpraying.htm > http://www.corrosion.com/thermal.html > > It is my understanding that wire guns are the way to > go for large > areas. The information I got down here was that > powder spraying is > much much more costly than wire. There are many > sites on the web that > explain how the process works. Seems like the > cheapest way to apply, > short of heating and rubbing powdered metal on by > hand, is the oxygen > / acetylene / compressed air / wire gun. The guns > that I purchased and > the one I used have air motors inside the gun to > pull the wire. The > wire is pushed thru a flame, the wire turns to > liquid, compressed air > shoots in from the side to turn the liquid metal > into a vapor. > If you go into ebay and type in "Metco" you will > probably see several > guns for sale in the near future. I just checked and > there aren't any > Metco wire guns on the board right now. > Hope this helps. However, there are folks here that > know much more > about the subject than I, with my 30 minutes actual > experience. Brent > wrote that he had once sprayed a boat. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > Gerald, > > > > What's to be looked for when buying a gun ? > > > > What else is required for it's use ? > > > > I've recently seen a couple of guns for sale that > vary by a factor of > > 10X. Why ? > > > > Appreciatively, > > > > Courtney > > > > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > > > I just bought two Metco flame spray guns on > ebay. One is complete with > > > many many spare parts and the other is just the > gun. The complete > > > outfit cost me 137US$ and the gun only cost > 102US$. Why sell them when > > > you are done keep them around for the grand > kids. It looks like the > > > process hasn't changed much since the first one > was patented over 100 > > > years ago. > > > I have a 1/2 X 1 meter mild steel plate sprayed > with zinc on both > > > sides. It laid next to a sea wall for a year > with no visible change. > > > Two months ago I scratched thru the surface down > to bare metal. It was > > > then turned over to a five year old to add rock > salt and water every > > > day. In the two month period the scratched area > has actually closed, I > > > guess with zinc, and no visible signs of rust. > > > A friend has a steel boat built more than 80 > years ago that was flame > > > sprayed. No visible signs of rust after all that > time. > > > I'm sold! > > > Gerald > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery > > wrote: > > > > > >>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" > > > >>wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought > > >>>Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my > father, a retired > > >>>metallurgical engineer. He was suitably > impressed with the concept & > > >>>made a few suggestions, including that I > consider a content of 5% > > >>>nickel. He felt that the added cost would still > come well under the > > >>>cost of building in aluminum(remember that this > was a year, or more, > > >>>ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to > allow for reasonable > > >>>weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, > he mentioned > > >>>chromium, and what percentages. > > >>> > > >>What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, > primed and painted in > > >>accordance with Brent's instructions, there is > no problem with rusting > > >>anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look > into having the hull > > >>flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best > protection next to > > >>hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly > cheap, if you buy the > > >>equipment used and then sell it after you finish > the job. > > >> > > >>-- > > >>BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > >> > > >>Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info > > >> > > > http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > > > > > >>Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 > Funniest American Films > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > s/v Mutiny > > Rhodes Bounty II > > lying Oriental, NC > > WDB5619 > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/| 4822|4822|2004-07-21 16:47:12|Alex|auto responders|Hi all, You'll be relieved to know I've been able to toggle Greg's message setting so the site won't get more messages via the auto responder. Keep in mind that he would not have done it on purpose, so forgive and forget. I've been without computer connection since November, so cannot check on the group's health as much as I'd like. Like Brent, I have to go down to the library when time allows and have only a short time at the terminal. Almost all my resources are now directed at the boat, hopefully resulting in a launch and moving aboard next spring. Thankfully we seem to rarely suffer glitches and spam as much as some groups do, and survive largely self-moderated. As long as we keep religion and strong (fightin') words out of the dialogue it should be smooth sailing! Alex| 4823|4822|2004-07-21 16:56:49|Michael Casling|Re: auto responders|Well done Alex, thanks for stepping in and I hope the boat work is going well. Can you give Greg a game misconduct when he gets back, ( red card for non hockey fans ) even if it was unintentional. Your right to save the cussing words for when you touch a hot piece of metal, and for my part I will not be preaching Islam or any other religion on this board, or anywhere actually. You have been having nice weather for boat building. I am picking blueberries up here in the sunny Okanagan and will be sailing later today. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] auto responders Hi all, You'll be relieved to know I've been able to toggle Greg's message setting so the site won't get more messages via the auto responder. Keep in mind that he would not have done it on purpose, so forgive and forget. I've been without computer connection since November, so cannot check on the group's health as much as I'd like. Like Brent, I have to go down to the library when time allows and have only a short time at the terminal. Almost all my resources are now directed at the boat, hopefully resulting in a launch and moving aboard next spring. Thankfully we seem to rarely suffer glitches and spam as much as some groups do, and survive largely self-moderated. As long as we keep religion and strong (fightin') words out of the dialogue it should be smooth sailing! Alex To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4824|4531|2004-07-21 17:43:20|Mike|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Robert: Sorry, I misunderstood. Your anecdote clearly displayed the difference between a sailor & what we used to refer to in the navy/coast guard as a "farmer". A "farmer" being a mariner who should be surrounded by land. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Gainer" wrote: > Mike said > Did I misunderstand your post response, or are you just looking for an > argument? > > snip > > P.S. It sounds like your friend was a few bricks short of a load. > > Mike; > I am sorry that I wrote the last line of my post in a way that you could > misunderstand my attempt at humor. Writing is not my best subject so please > accept my apologies. The idiot (not friend) I used as an example was just > someone who was planning the same trip, and I hoped to get some benefit from > his research and planning. I discarded him as source of information for > obvious reasons. He does offer a good example of the lack of planning and > intelligence of some people that are sailing around on the oceans. I hoped > that some would find the account of interest and get a good laugh. > All the best; > Robert Gainer > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ | 4826|4755|2004-07-21 20:00:12|Steve Rankin|Re: Plate selection ->attn: Gerald N.|Actually it has the same strength as paint! Got any of that smoke for sale? Roger Allman wrote: > Does sprayed aluminum have the same structural > strength as a plate of aluminum of the same grade and > thickness? i.e. can one build a mold and spray the > hull using several applications. Or bet yet alternate > layers of metals (say steel, AL, CuNi) to produce a > strong, lightweight, corrosion resistant hull with no > welds. > > --- Gerald Niffenegger > wrote: > >>When you say 10X, I would assume you mean 10 times >>the prices that I >>quoted? I have not yet set up a system. However, as >>soon as the >>equipment arrives down here from the states I will >>set it up. I have >>flame sprayed a square meter area with zinc using >>another persons gun. >>About like spray painting only much slower. Here are >>a couple of sites >>that probably tell you more than you want to know? >> >> > > http://webpages.dcu.ie/~stokesjt/ThermalSpraying/Book/HVOFThermalSpraying.htm > >>http://www.corrosion.com/thermal.html >> >>It is my understanding that wire guns are the way to >>go for large >>areas. The information I got down here was that >>powder spraying is >>much much more costly than wire. There are many >>sites on the web that >>explain how the process works. Seems like the >>cheapest way to apply, >>short of heating and rubbing powdered metal on by >>hand, is the oxygen >>/ acetylene / compressed air / wire gun. The guns >>that I purchased and >>the one I used have air motors inside the gun to >>pull the wire. The >>wire is pushed thru a flame, the wire turns to >>liquid, compressed air >>shoots in from the side to turn the liquid metal >>into a vapor. >>If you go into ebay and type in "Metco" you will >>probably see several >>guns for sale in the near future. I just checked and >>there aren't any >>Metco wire guns on the board right now. >>Hope this helps. However, there are folks here that >>know much more >>about the subject than I, with my 30 minutes actual >>experience. Brent >>wrote that he had once sprayed a boat. >>Gerald >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas >> >>wrote: >> >>>Gerald, >>> >>>What's to be looked for when buying a gun ? >>> >>>What else is required for it's use ? >>> >>>I've recently seen a couple of guns for sale that >> >>vary by a factor of >> >>>10X. Why ? >>> >>>Appreciatively, >>> >>>Courtney >>> >>> >>>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I just bought two Metco flame spray guns on >> >>ebay. One is complete with >> >>>>many many spare parts and the other is just the >> >>gun. The complete >> >>>>outfit cost me 137US$ and the gun only cost >> >>102US$. Why sell them when >> >>>>you are done keep them around for the grand >> >>kids. It looks like the >> >>>>process hasn't changed much since the first one >> >>was patented over 100 >> >>>>years ago. >>>>I have a 1/2 X 1 meter mild steel plate sprayed >> >>with zinc on both >> >>>>sides. It laid next to a sea wall for a year >> >>with no visible change. >> >>>>Two months ago I scratched thru the surface down >> >>to bare metal. It was >> >>>>then turned over to a five year old to add rock >> >>salt and water every >> >>>>day. In the two month period the scratched area >> >>has actually closed, I >> >>>>guess with zinc, and no visible signs of rust. >>>>A friend has a steel boat built more than 80 >> >>years ago that was flame >> >>>>sprayed. No visible signs of rust after all that >> >>time. >> >>>>I'm sold! >>>>Gerald >>>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery >> >> >>wrote: >> >>>>>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" >> >> >> >>>>>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought >>>>>>Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my >> >>father, a retired >> >>>>>>metallurgical engineer. He was suitably >> >>impressed with the concept & >> >>>>>>made a few suggestions, including that I >> >>consider a content of 5% >> >>>>>>nickel. He felt that the added cost would still >> >>come well under the >> >>>>>>cost of building in aluminum(remember that this >> >>was a year, or more, >> >>>>>>ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to >> >>allow for reasonable >> >>>>>>weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, >> >>he mentioned >> >>>>>>chromium, and what percentages. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, >> >>primed and painted in >> >>>>>accordance with Brent's instructions, there is >> >>no problem with rusting >> >>>>>anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look >> >>into having the hull >> >>>>>flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best >> >>protection next to >> >>>>>hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly >> >>cheap, if you buy the >> >>>>>equipment used and then sell it after you finish >> >>the job. >> >>>>>-- >>>>>BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) >>>>> >>>>>Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info >>>>> >>>> >>>>http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org >>>> >>>> >>>>>Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 >> >>Funniest American Films >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>To Post a message, send it to: >> >>origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >> >>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >> >>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >> >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>s/v Mutiny >>>Rhodes Bounty II >>>lying Oriental, NC >>>WDB5619 >> >> > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4827|4755|2004-07-21 20:11:45|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Plate selection ->attn: Gerald N.|Roger Don't know if your idea would work but no one can accuse you of not thinking! :-) Sure sounds better than blowing concrete onto chicken wire. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Roger Allman wrote: > Does sprayed aluminum have the same structural > strength as a plate of aluminum of the same grade and > thickness? i.e. can one build a mold and spray the > hull using several applications. Or bet yet alternate > layers of metals (say steel, AL, CuNi) to produce a > strong, lightweight, corrosion resistant hull with no > welds. > > --- Gerald Niffenegger > wrote: > > When you say 10X, I would assume you mean 10 times > > the prices that I > > quoted? I have not yet set up a system. However, as > > soon as the > > equipment arrives down here from the states I will > > set it up. I have > > flame sprayed a square meter area with zinc using > > another persons gun. > > About like spray painting only much slower. Here are > > a couple of sites > > that probably tell you more than you want to know? > > > > > http://webpages.dcu.ie/~stokesjt/ThermalSpraying/Book/HVOFThermalSpraying.htm > > http://www.corrosion.com/thermal.html > > > > It is my understanding that wire guns are the way to > > go for large > > areas. The information I got down here was that > > powder spraying is > > much much more costly than wire. There are many > > sites on the web that > > explain how the process works. Seems like the > > cheapest way to apply, > > short of heating and rubbing powdered metal on by > > hand, is the oxygen > > / acetylene / compressed air / wire gun. The guns > > that I purchased and > > the one I used have air motors inside the gun to > > pull the wire. The > > wire is pushed thru a flame, the wire turns to > > liquid, compressed air > > shoots in from the side to turn the liquid metal > > into a vapor. > > If you go into ebay and type in "Metco" you will > > probably see several > > guns for sale in the near future. I just checked and > > there aren't any > > Metco wire guns on the board right now. > > Hope this helps. However, there are folks here that > > know much more > > about the subject than I, with my 30 minutes actual > > experience. Brent > > wrote that he had once sprayed a boat. > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > > > wrote: > > > Gerald, > > > > > > What's to be looked for when buying a gun ? > > > > > > What else is required for it's use ? > > > > > > I've recently seen a couple of guns for sale that > > vary by a factor of > > > 10X. Why ? > > > > > > Appreciatively, > > > > > > Courtney > > > > > > > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > > > > > I just bought two Metco flame spray guns on > > ebay. One is complete with > > > > many many spare parts and the other is just the > > gun. The complete > > > > outfit cost me 137US$ and the gun only cost > > 102US$. Why sell them when > > > > you are done keep them around for the grand > > kids. It looks like the > > > > process hasn't changed much since the first one > > was patented over 100 > > > > years ago. > > > > I have a 1/2 X 1 meter mild steel plate sprayed > > with zinc on both > > > > sides. It laid next to a sea wall for a year > > with no visible change. > > > > Two months ago I scratched thru the surface down > > to bare metal. It was > > > > then turned over to a five year old to add rock > > salt and water every > > > > day. In the two month period the scratched area > > has actually closed, I > > > > guess with zinc, and no visible signs of rust. > > > > A friend has a steel boat built more than 80 > > years ago that was flame > > > > sprayed. No visible signs of rust after all that > > time. > > > > I'm sold! > > > > Gerald > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:27:10 -0000, "Mike" > > > > > >>wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>Yes, I am talking alloyed steel. I bought > > > >>>Brent's book some time ago & lent it to my > > father, a retired > > > >>>metallurgical engineer. He was suitably > > impressed with the concept & > > > >>>made a few suggestions, including that I > > consider a content of 5% > > > >>>nickel. He felt that the added cost would still > > come well under the > > > >>>cost of building in aluminum(remember that this > > was a year, or more, > > > >>>ago) and would be of a low enough percentage to > > allow for reasonable > > > >>>weldability. I do not remember whether, or not, > > he mentioned > > > >>>chromium, and what percentages. > > > >>> > > > >>What's the point? Once the steel is blasted, > > primed and painted in > > > >>accordance with Brent's instructions, there is > > no problem with rusting > > > >>anyway. If you really want to go all-out, look > > into having the hull > > > >>flame sprayed with aluminum-zinc-- the next best > > protection next to > > > >>hot galvanizing. Supposedly, it's al fairly > > cheap, if you buy the > > > >>equipment used and then sell it after you finish > > the job. > > > >> > > > >>-- > > > >>BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > > >> > > > >>Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info > > > >> > > > > http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > > > > > > > >>Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 > > Funniest American Films > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: > > origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > s/v Mutiny > > > Rhodes Bounty II > > > lying Oriental, NC > > > WDB5619 > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/ | 4828|4531|2004-07-21 22:04:59|easy software|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return.| 4831|4831|2004-07-22 01:46:29|SHANE ROTHWELL|engines etc|"himself" (Brent Swain) had a warning re herth gear box's that might be worth looking up ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4832|4739|2004-07-22 07:45:41|ben_azo|Re: To uncle Ben|Hi ,sory I am on holiday sailing but I will forward you the info as soon as back home , by the end of next week inch allah Regards ben_azo --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > Dear uncle Ben > > Do you by any chance have the contacts with the designer os the > French aluminum centerboarder? Do you know if the building plans for > that design are available for amateur construction? How about the > Puck 7.7? > Thanx > JPaes | 4833|4531|2004-07-22 09:14:06|ben_azo|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Hi James , hi all Within your 40000$ budget is the transformed Konsort Duo , a 29 ft twinkeeler ; Steel or Aluminum ? A bit shorter or longer ? Sure it can be done . Have a look at some pics , files , plans , links and a message in one word usefull info I posted in a repository for that info : the Yahoo Group : seabull http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/message/1 If you have an interest in anything over there usefull to your project , please ask here and keep the discussion here for the benefit of all Regards ben_azo --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "James Douglas" wrote:| 4834|4799|2004-07-22 22:12:18|vega1944|Re: China Cloud replica in Buy & sell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > Just checked buy & sell....not there anymore.....bummer. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca Check prior posts by Evan Shaler, he's the owner and has built many of Brent's designs. He lives in Nanaimo on the boat.| 4835|4799|2004-07-22 22:53:40|Mike|Re: China Cloud replica in Buy & sell|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "vega1944" wrote > Check prior posts by Evan Shaler, he's the owner and has built many of Brent's designs. He lives in Nanaimo on the boat. If Evan is "out there, somewhere", he should let us know when he has a boat for sale. Maybe he already did, but I don't recall seeing a post about this. I would love to see more detailed photos of this vessel, including any under way shots. Is this possible? Evan; if you read this and don't have more photos, I would be willing to "hop" the ferry over on a weekend and take a load of pictures for you to share with the group. Just a thought... Regards, Mike Graham| 4836|4836|2004-07-23 00:19:25|John Cupp|Twin Keel Fuel Cells|How many of the twin keel designs have tankage in the keels themselves? I know that some designs use this unused space for extra fuel that doesn't have to take up space inside the boat. If I had my druthers, I would mount the new heavy-duty electric drive motors and fuel tanks on the twin keels. Then You could use a generator with a backup to also drive the boat No shafts through the hull and the drive motors could be cooled by the surrounding waters Looking for tank space is a designers nightmare because they are not always full. If you were to use two rubber bladders in each keel when the fuel bladder was empty, you could fill the other bladder with water from your water maker. The fuel bladder would smash the water bladder flat, then as it emptied water could make the fuel come up so the last drop could be used. In the event that a rock or some other sharp object tore open the steel or alloy the rubber bladder may keep the fuel contained. So you could maybe get an extra 50 or 60 gallons of fuel stored then as you run change it over to water. I have been working with my local electric motor shop to get a rheostat for throttle and a way to change rotation for reverse on an AC motor. A two-phase motor cooled by seawater could be as much a five horsepower. It takes a gasoline engine at least twice the size of an electric motor to do the same job. Therefore, with two five-horse electrics, one on each side would almost equal a twenty horsepower fuel engine. Now with a wind generator or two and battery bank of at least ten batteries, you could run silent into a crowded harbor at night and light sleepers would not curse your arrival. I like a generator instead of a drive motor because it does not need to be inline with the props. I have been doing some research and I like a Motorsailer instead of straight power but I like tabernacled masts that fold down also. If I am faced with a big storm at sea, I would like most of my weight down low and maybe just enough power to keep the boat into the wind. A good sea anchor can also do that but that is just more piece of gear that is outside that needs to be handled. I have had waves of green water come over the rail on top of me and it does not feel very good. To be safe and warm in the pilothouse even if I have to wear a seat belt is far more comfortable. Then after the storm with a well-balanced mast, one person can lift it with a finger. Just the type of sailing that I like. With all of the heavy work being taken care of through engineering a 90 year old could still sail if his or her mind was still sharp. Just a few thoughts for the group to explore. John| 4837|4531|2004-07-23 04:09:25|jim dorey|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:06:45 -0000, Mike wrote: > Robert: > From what I just read, you learned how to use a sextant. You didn't > just rely on your electronic nav. equip. to take you across the > Atlantic, right? I have met "sailors" in Asia who had travelled > thousands of miles across the oceans without any idea of how to use > a sextant. I'm sorry but, to me, that's an idiot. In the same bag as > the "mariner" who navigates with a road map. I've taken chances > navigating boats that would be considered by many to be "ill- > equipped", but I am not foolish enough to place myself in situations > at sea where a lack of sufficient knowledge would place me in harm's > way, and I think that any sailor with half-a-brain would agree. Did > I misunderstand your post response, or are you just looking for an > argument? > Regards, > Mike > P.S. It sounds like your friend was a few bricks short of a load. i thought he was saying that people that didn't know how to use a sextant but had several were idiots. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/| 4838|4799|2004-07-23 08:03:20|Phil S.|Re: China Cloud replica in Buy & sell|I think Evan has someone from California coming out to look at the boat, if she doesn't take it then he was going to post here. Evan, like several others, checks here once a week at the Library. There are a couple of pictures of it posted in the "Shaler Junk" folder. Regards Phil| 4839|4836|2004-07-23 08:03:58|ben_azo|Re: Twin Keel Fuel Cells|Sure some sound ideas here , only one remark : a motorsailor should be a 100 % sailboat ,with an extra well designed engine and some extra tanks , I agree a 100 % with the advantages of a collapsable mast but I sure would want to keep stormsail carrying capability and have we forgotten the art of laying a hull ? I sure did not , what an efficient why to take some rest , eat a bit and cary on just as well afther the rest .The collapsable mast is great for canalcruising or just to find a more peasefull anchorage farther than a low bridge . ben_azo --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > How many of the twin keel designs have tankage in the keels > themselves? I know that some designs use this unused space for > extra fuel that doesn't have to take up space inside the boat. If I > had my druthers, I would mount the new heavy-duty electric drive > motors and fuel tanks on the twin keels. Then You could use a > generator with a backup to also drive the boat No shafts through > the hull and the drive motors could be cooled by the surrounding > waters Looking for tank space is a designers nightmare because they > are not always full. > > If you were to use two rubber bladders in each keel when the fuel > bladder was empty, you could fill the other bladder with water from > your water maker. The fuel bladder would smash the water bladder > flat, then as it emptied water could make the fuel come up so the > last drop could be used. In the event that a rock or some other > sharp object tore open the steel or alloy the rubber bladder may keep > the fuel contained. > > So you could maybe get an extra 50 or 60 gallons of fuel stored then > as you run change it over to water. I have been working with my > local electric motor shop to get a rheostat for throttle and a way to > change rotation for reverse on an AC motor. A two-phase motor > cooled by seawater could be as much a five horsepower. It takes a > gasoline engine at least twice the size of an electric motor to do > the same job. Therefore, with two five-horse electrics, one on each > side would almost equal a twenty horsepower fuel engine. Now with a > wind generator or two and battery bank of at least ten batteries, you > could run silent into a crowded harbor at night and light sleepers > would not curse your arrival. I like a generator instead of a drive > motor because it does not need to be inline with the props. > > I have been doing some research and I like a Motorsailer instead of > straight power but I like tabernacled masts that fold down also. If > I am faced with a big storm at sea, I would like most of my weight > down low and maybe just enough power to keep the boat into the > wind. A good sea anchor can also do that but that is just more > piece of gear that is outside that needs to be handled. I have had > waves of green water come over the rail on top of me and it does not > feel very good. To be safe and warm in the pilothouse even if I > have to wear a seat belt is far more comfortable. Then after the > storm with a well-balanced mast, one person can lift it with a > finger. Just the type of sailing that I like. With all of the heavy > work being taken care of through engineering a 90 year old could > still sail if his or her mind was still sharp. > > Just a few thoughts for the group to explore. > > John | 4840|4840|2004-07-23 12:26:08|robertgainer|Waves|Brian Eiland posted this on www.boatdesign.net today. I thought it might be of interest to the group. All the best, Robert Gainer ROGUE WAVES Paris - European satellites have given confirmation to terrified mariners who describe seeing freak waves as tall as 10-storey buildings, the European Space Agency (ESA) said. "Rogue waves" have been the anecdotal cause behind scores of sinkings of vessels as large as container ships and supertankers over the past two decades. But evidence to support this has been sketchy, and many marine scientists have clung to statistical models that say monstrous deviations from the normal sea state only occur once every thousand years. Testing this promise, ESA tasked two of its Earth-scanning satellites, ERS-1 and ERS-2, to monitor the oceans with their radar. The radars send back "imagettes" -- a picture of the sea surface in a rectangle measuring 10 by five kilometers (six by 2.5 miles) that is taken every 200 kms (120 miles). Around 30,000 separate "imagettes" were taken by the two satellites in a three- week project, MaxWave, that was carried out in 2001. Even though the research period was brief, the satellites identified more than 10 individual giant waves around the globe that measured more than 25 metres (81.25 feet) in height, ESA said in a press release. The waves exist "in higher numbers than anyone expected," said Wolfgang Rosenthal, senior scientist with the GKSS Research Centre in Geesthacht, Germany, who pored over the data. "The next step is to analyze if they can be forecasted," he said. Ironically, the research coincided with two "rogue wave" incidents in which two tourist cruisers, the Bremen and the Caledonian Star, had their bridge windows smashed by 30-metre (100-feet) monsters in the South Atlantic. The Bremen was left drifting without navigation or propulsion for two hours after the hit. In 1995, the British cruise liner Queen Elizabeth II encountered a 29-metre (94.25-feet) wall of water during a hurricane in the North Atlantic. Its captain, Ronald Warwick, likened it to "the White Cliffs of Dover." - AFP, full story: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...afp/science_sea| 4841|4840|2004-07-23 13:21:45|Phil S.|Re: Waves|Wow, think i will just stay in my nice safe lake, LOL. Phil| 4842|4842|2004-07-23 15:56:10|SHANE ROTHWELL|Juhn Cupps last posting|John, I think you need a bit more research twin keels arent that big & dont know if they would total 35 gallons in area in a 36' Swain. besides, they are intended for lead ballast arent they. a horsepower is 746 watts of power no matter how you slice it. sure there are inefficiencies but to say that 5 hp of electric drive equals 10 hp of engine is not correct your concept of a spar you lower in a blow and "can then lift with a finger after the storm is over". for starters, 1. why throw away your primary source of drive power by stowing it 2. how do you stow it so it will not self destrict as unless it's tiny its giong to hang way way over the ends of your vessel 3. to engineer a tabernacle so that you can "lift it with a finger" you would need a tabernacle that is literally half the length of the spar. if this is so. the spar when "stowed/lowered" would, when parallel to the deck, be half the length of the spar off of the deck, something like 25 feet off the deck. Now think about the centre of gravity... Best Regards, Shane ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4843|4836|2004-07-23 17:45:45|spencerj71|Re: Twin Keel Fuel Cells|I like the concept. Shane has pointed out a few of the short- comings, or things that need to be worked out. I'll add one. Batteries produce DC power, so if you going to have AC motors you need AC power. Inverters don't do well powering motors, unless you get a fancy expensive one. Why not just go with DC motors? Bigger and more expensive, but would be easier to run off your batteries or generator/battery charger. There are some ferries and boats around now that are using this type of set-up...AC generator and AC motor with frequency drives to control speed. Has anyone seen this on a smaller boat yet? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > How many of the twin keel designs have tankage in the keels > themselves? I know that some designs use this unused space for > extra fuel that doesn't have to take up space inside the boat. If I > had my druthers, I would mount the new heavy-duty electric drive > motors and fuel tanks on the twin keels. Then You could use a > generator with a backup to also drive the boat No shafts through > the hull and the drive motors could be cooled by the surrounding > waters Looking for tank space is a designers nightmare because they > are not always full. > > If you were to use two rubber bladders in each keel when the fuel > bladder was empty, you could fill the other bladder with water from > your water maker. The fuel bladder would smash the water bladder > flat, then as it emptied water could make the fuel come up so the > last drop could be used. In the event that a rock or some other > sharp object tore open the steel or alloy the rubber bladder may keep > the fuel contained. > > So you could maybe get an extra 50 or 60 gallons of fuel stored then > as you run change it over to water. I have been working with my > local electric motor shop to get a rheostat for throttle and a way to > change rotation for reverse on an AC motor. A two-phase motor > cooled by seawater could be as much a five horsepower. It takes a > gasoline engine at least twice the size of an electric motor to do > the same job. Therefore, with two five-horse electrics, one on each > side would almost equal a twenty horsepower fuel engine. Now with a > wind generator or two and battery bank of at least ten batteries, you > could run silent into a crowded harbor at night and light sleepers > would not curse your arrival. I like a generator instead of a drive > motor because it does not need to be inline with the props. > > I have been doing some research and I like a Motorsailer instead of > straight power but I like tabernacled masts that fold down also. If > I am faced with a big storm at sea, I would like most of my weight > down low and maybe just enough power to keep the boat into the > wind. A good sea anchor can also do that but that is just more > piece of gear that is outside that needs to be handled. I have had > waves of green water come over the rail on top of me and it does not > feel very good. To be safe and warm in the pilothouse even if I > have to wear a seat belt is far more comfortable. Then after the > storm with a well-balanced mast, one person can lift it with a > finger. Just the type of sailing that I like. With all of the heavy > work being taken care of through engineering a 90 year old could > still sail if his or her mind was still sharp. > > Just a few thoughts for the group to explore. > > John | 4844|4836|2004-07-23 20:32:42|brentswain38|Re: Twin Keel Fuel Cells|36 foot Silas Crosby used the top of her twin keels for diesel. There was room enough for 35 gallons on top of the ballast. Lowering the mast for heavy weather would greatly increase the risk of capsize as it would reduce the boat's intertia. A drogue off the stern quarter is the best place for a smooth ride in a gale. I just saw the simplest wid generator ever imaginable. Called the K.I.S.S Generator. It uses a delco alternator outer winding and a stack of speaker ceramic ring magnets epoxied to a shaft for a core. No brushes needed and when your battery goes over 15.5 volts you just tie it off. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > How many of the twin keel designs have tankage in the keels > themselves? I know that some designs use this unused space for > extra fuel that doesn't have to take up space inside the boat. If I > had my druthers, I would mount the new heavy-duty electric drive > motors and fuel tanks on the twin keels. Then You could use a > generator with a backup to also drive the boat No shafts through > the hull and the drive motors could be cooled by the surrounding > waters Looking for tank space is a designers nightmare because they > are not always full. > > If you were to use two rubber bladders in each keel when the fuel > bladder was empty, you could fill the other bladder with water from > your water maker. The fuel bladder would smash the water bladder > flat, then as it emptied water could make the fuel come up so the > last drop could be used. In the event that a rock or some other > sharp object tore open the steel or alloy the rubber bladder may keep > the fuel contained. > > So you could maybe get an extra 50 or 60 gallons of fuel stored then > as you run change it over to water. I have been working with my > local electric motor shop to get a rheostat for throttle and a way to > change rotation for reverse on an AC motor. A two-phase motor > cooled by seawater could be as much a five horsepower. It takes a > gasoline engine at least twice the size of an electric motor to do > the same job. Therefore, with two five-horse electrics, one on each > side would almost equal a twenty horsepower fuel engine. Now with a > wind generator or two and battery bank of at least ten batteries, you > could run silent into a crowded harbor at night and light sleepers > would not curse your arrival. I like a generator instead of a drive > motor because it does not need to be inline with the props. > > I have been doing some research and I like a Motorsailer instead of > straight power but I like tabernacled masts that fold down also. If > I am faced with a big storm at sea, I would like most of my weight > down low and maybe just enough power to keep the boat into the > wind. A good sea anchor can also do that but that is just more > piece of gear that is outside that needs to be handled. I have had > waves of green water come over the rail on top of me and it does not > feel very good. To be safe and warm in the pilothouse even if I > have to wear a seat belt is far more comfortable. Then after the > storm with a well-balanced mast, one person can lift it with a > finger. Just the type of sailing that I like. With all of the heavy > work being taken care of through engineering a 90 year old could > still sail if his or her mind was still sharp. > > Just a few thoughts for the group to explore. > > John | 4845|4531|2004-07-23 20:48:38|brentswain38|Re: Small Sailboats Capable of Circumnavigation|Taking a noon site is pretty simple. The nautical almanac tells you the sun's longitude for every day, hour, minute and second of the day. All you have to do is determine to the nearest second when it is direcrtly overhead, look up that time in the almanac, and it will give you your longitude.If you take a sight in the morning around ten AM and record the sun's height above the horizon and the time to the nearest second, then take a second sight in the afternoon around 1400 local time and note when it hits the same sextant angle as the morning sight , the time halfway between those two sights is when it was directly overhead. Look up where the sun was then ,GMT and that's your longitude. For latitude, if there were no declination , refraction and you took the sight from sea level,and you were on the equator, the sun would be at 90 degrees , but your lattitude would be 0 degrees, so whatever you get must be subtracted from 90 degrees.Watch the sun rise thru your sextant to it's maximum and record the maximum angle above the horizon.Then either add or subtract the declination given for your day of the year in your almanac, subtract 2.5 minutes for a height of eye of six feet above seal level, and make the correction given in the front of your almanac for refraction and semi diameter. Subtract the resulting number from 90 degrees and you have your lattitude . Line of sight and other techniques can be learned later as a hobby , but a noon sight will give you confidence to learn more. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim dorey" wrote: > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:06:45 -0000, Mike wrote: > > > Robert: > > From what I just read, you learned how to use a sextant. You didn't > > just rely on your electronic nav. equip. to take you across the > > Atlantic, right? I have met "sailors" in Asia who had travelled > > thousands of miles across the oceans without any idea of how to use > > a sextant. I'm sorry but, to me, that's an idiot. In the same bag as > > the "mariner" who navigates with a road map. I've taken chances > > navigating boats that would be considered by many to be "ill- > > equipped", but I am not foolish enough to place myself in situations > > at sea where a lack of sufficient knowledge would place me in harm's > > way, and I think that any sailor with half-a-brain would agree. Did > > I misunderstand your post response, or are you just looking for an > > argument? > > Regards, > > Mike > > P.S. It sounds like your friend was a few bricks short of a load. > > i thought he was saying that people that didn't know how to use a sextant > but had several were idiots. > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ | 4846|4846|2004-07-23 21:19:23|blueiceicle|ordering plans?|Hello eveyone Ive finaly decided to take my first big step and order some plans for a 26ft twin keeler! (which i hope to extend to 28ft) Anyhow Id really like to get this in the mail by monday, and I dont want to chance Brent not being near a computer this weekend so, I thouhgt id ask the group..... Do I need to send extra money for plan postage or is that included in the price? if so how much? Hopefully someone here will know, Im currently in Edmonton, Alberta so its not too far from the "Comox Valley" (my home town). Anyhow, best wishes to all, happy building/sailing P.S. Brent mentioned a fellow by the name of Evan who build a 28ft of the 26ft plans, he didnt give me a last name but im hoping he is part of this group. So if your out there Evan id love to hear from you, or anyone who knows who Evan is. lol my email is tunagouda@... Thanks everyone Jesse| 4847|4799|2004-07-23 22:35:54|Mike|Re: China Cloud replica in Buy & sell|Thanks, Phil. Yeah, I've seen the photos before. I'd like to see more & lots of detail. Regards, Mike --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Phil S." wrote: > I think Evan has someone from California coming out to look at the boat, if she doesn't > take it then he was going to post here. Evan, like several others, checks here once a week > at the Library. There are a couple of pictures of it posted in the "Shaler Junk" folder. > Regards > Phil | 4848|4846|2004-07-24 01:31:20|Gerd|Re: ordering plans?|Jesse, You have just managed the most difficult part of building a boat - you mad up your mind to do it - from now on it's all downhill, well, most of the time anyway ;-) Good luck, lots of fun and keep us up to date! Gerd the Yago Project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4849|4846|2004-07-24 03:06:49|Graeme|Re: ordering plans?|Gerd When are you going to update your site?? Like more pics would be good Graeme -----Original Message----- From: Gerd [mailto:yago@...] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 1:31 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ordering plans? Jesse, You have just managed the most difficult part of building a boat - you mad up your mind to do it - from now on it's all downhill, well, most of the time anyway ;-) Good luck, lots of fun and keep us up to date! Gerd the Yago Project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4850|4846|2004-07-24 06:16:12|ben_azo|Re: ordering plans?|Hi Jesse , good luck and please give me directions to the plans you bought , I am curious to see more . ben_azo --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Hello eveyone > > Ive finaly decided to take my first big step and order some plans > for a 26ft twin keeler! (which i hope to extend to 28ft) > > Anyhow Id really like to get this in the mail by monday, and I dont > want to chance Brent not being near a computer this weekend so, I > thouhgt id ask the group..... Do I need to send extra money for > plan postage or is that included in the price? if so how much? > > Hopefully someone here will know, Im currently in Edmonton, Alberta > so its not too far from the "Comox Valley" (my home town). > > Anyhow, best wishes to all, happy building/sailing > > P.S. Brent mentioned a fellow by the name of Evan who build a 28ft > of the 26ft plans, he didnt give me a last name but im hoping he is > part of this group. So if your out there Evan id love to hear from > you, or anyone who knows who Evan is. lol my email is > tunagouda@i... > > Thanks everyone Jesse | 4851|4846|2004-07-24 06:43:50|Gerd|Re: ordering plans?|Graeme - so I don't update for a week and you start complaining ;-) Actually I was down with a bout of summer flu, but right no I am lifting the foredeck up, so at the end of the weekend... think you can wait that long? ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme" wrote: > > Gerd > > When are you going to update your site?? Like more pics would be good > > Graeme > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerd [mailto:yago@j...] > Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 1:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ordering plans? > > Jesse, You have just managed the most difficult part of building a > boat - you mad up your mind to do it - from now on it's all > downhill, well, most of the time anyway ;-) > > Good luck, lots of fun and keep us up to date! > > Gerd > > the Yago Project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links | 4852|4846|2004-07-24 13:33:39|Brent Geery|Re: ordering plans?|On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 01:19:10 -0000, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Hello eveyone > > Ive finaly decided to take my first big step and order some plans > for a 26ft twin keeler! (which i hope to extend to 28ft) > > Anyhow Id really like to get this in the mail by monday, and I dont > want to chance Brent not being near a computer this weekend so, I > thouhgt id ask the group..... Do I need to send extra money for > plan postage or is that included in the price? if so how much? > > Hopefully someone here will know, Im currently in Edmonton, Alberta > so its not too far from the "Comox Valley" (my home town). > > Anyhow, best wishes to all, happy building/sailing > > P.S. Brent mentioned a fellow by the name of Evan who build a 28ft > of the 26ft plans, he didnt give me a last name but im hoping he is > part of this group. So if your out there Evan id love to hear from > you, or anyone who knows who Evan is. lol my email is > tunagouda@... > > Thanks everyone Jesse I ordered the plans ad book about two weeks ago, and sent no extra money for s/h on the plans. Just $200 (plans), $20 (book), $3 (book s/h) for a total of $223. Brent didn't complain when I checked if he received my order, and my order shipped a few days ago, so I think the plan prices include s/h, but to book does not. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4853|4842|2004-07-24 13:41:17|Brent Geery|Re: Juhn Cupps last posting|On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 15:55:57 -0400 (EDT), SHANE ROTHWELL wrote: > a horsepower is 746 watts of power no matter how you > slice it. Hmm. Not according to some info I came across, that there are at least four definitions: 1 International Hp = 745.70 Watts 1 Electric Hp = 746.00 Watts 1 Metric Hp = 735.50 Watts 1 Water Hp = 746.04 Watts -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4854|4846|2004-07-24 14:04:21|blueiceicle|Re: ordering plans?|Right on!, thanks Brent for the info. I was hoping someone who has recently orderd plans would respond. Problem solved.... And congrats to you on ordering you plans. Im also ordering the 26ft plans. Where abouts you going to build Brent? Well later Still have lots more reasearch to do. Jesse| 4855|4846|2004-07-24 14:52:53|Brent Geery|Re: ordering plans?|On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:02:56 -0000, "blueiceicle" wrote: > Right on!, thanks Brent for the info. > > I was hoping someone who has recently orderd plans would respond. > Problem solved.... > > And congrats to you on ordering you plans. Im also ordering the 26ft > plans. Where abouts you going to build Brent? > > Well later > Still have lots more reasearch to do. I'm planning on building near Los Angeles, if I can find a lot that will rent for the purpose. Still have to check with City Hall if it's legal or not. Lots of industrial/commercial land going to waste that I can probably rent, but also probably be without any utility access, so I'm on my own for power. If L.A. is a pain to build at, I'll probably take a trip up to Brent's neck of the woods, build the basic boat there, then sail it back down to Los Angeles to finish it up. In any case, I have two years to figure everything out, as that's what it will take me to save up the remaining money I'd like to have before starting the hull. (Plus, I'm also working on building a desert homestead.) That will also give me time to learn welding, and start building all those little sub-projects that Brent describes in his book (supposedly these total about 1/3 of the total boat project.) -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4856|4846|2004-07-24 19:39:46|blueiceicle|Re: ordering plans?|I too, have not quite yet figured out where to build my hull. Im currently in Edmonton so if i build out here then Ill have to trailer the boat to the coast. However im told it might be possible to train the boat to Vancouver? Will have to see about that later on. For now though im planning on building everything i possibly can before ordering the plate for the hull. I work at a Industrial sheet metal shop so im planning to make use of what equipment i can. I like the ideal Brent mentioned of breaking the bulwark pipe, (i think thats what there called) there is a 16ft break at work im going to try a piece and see how it turns out on monday. When i recieve the plans from Brent im going to inquire on whether or not he minds me gettting the plans being put into CAD, there is a plasma table at work id like to put to my own use, (seing how i spend 3-4 hrs a day on it).... why not eh. Basically im thinkg of huilding the skeg, keels, rudder and all the other goodies like the tabernackle, stainless oddss and ends and such while in edmonton, and just hauling it back to bc for next spring and builidng the hull In Courtenay. I think it would be best to build ont he island for me because i really want to launch me boat in the valley! and id hate to truck from bc and across the ferry to do the launch. Well we shall see, maybe look into stick welder with a generator Brent, using one of those cheaper industrial site's should be just fine with one. Well thats all for now, time to go golfing. Jesse| 4857|4846|2004-07-24 21:47:41|Graeme|Re: ordering plans?|Ok gerd I will wait.......... sorry about the flu tough thing , but better you than me just kidding Graeme -----Original Message----- From: Gerd [mailto:yago@...] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 6:44 PM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ordering plans? Graeme - so I don't update for a week and you start complaining ;-) Actually I was down with a bout of summer flu, but right no I am lifting the foredeck up, so at the end of the weekend... think you can wait that long? ;-) Gerd --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Graeme" wrote: > > Gerd > > When are you going to update your site?? Like more pics would be good > > Graeme > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gerd [mailto:yago@j...] > Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 1:31 PM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: ordering plans? > > Jesse, You have just managed the most difficult part of building a > boat - you mad up your mind to do it - from now on it's all > downhill, well, most of the time anyway ;-) > > Good luck, lots of fun and keep us up to date! > > Gerd > > the Yago Project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links | 4858|4846|2004-07-25 04:38:15|Ben Tucker|Re: ordering plans?|Hi gerd, Looking forward to an update as well, sorry about the flu, one question, when you joined the sheets did you weld both sides? the welds look to have folded without any kinking. Cheers Ben| 4859|4846|2004-07-25 05:47:22|Gerd|Re: ordering plans?|Ben - no, welded only one side flat on the ground. it's not bad, but next time I would be more careful near the borders. in the middle of the sheet they are nice and flush though. I try to make an "asymetric" welds: place short bridges every 20 cm or so, then weld one side first flush and without kink, welding very lightly without too much penetration. Stop about 15 cm from the border and hold the ends together only with a solid tack, otherwise you will get a nasty hard wave there. That's a weld that will sit a bit on top, but it's inside and no need to grind...then later, after assembly, from the other side grind in to half the sheet and weld to fill the groove I grinded. I do not know if that is correct, but it works ok for me, and I made some tests and found no difference in break resistance. The only places where I had problems was near the borders in one half, because I used one half hull as a template to trace and cut the other undernetath. so the top layer was only tacked, and after cutting I broke it up, flipped the pieces over and re-assembled them. That means I had joints between the sheets that would go across the dart-cuts, and I stupidly welded right to the border, and that made very nasty hard points, had to cut them open and re-adjust. It works, but if there's any chance to get full size sheets even paying more or waiting longer, it's well worth it. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4860|1509|2004-07-25 08:07:25|Gerald Niffenegger|Insulation|I just completed a test piece and it turned out perfect. I got hold of some two part foam. In this area they make surf boards and the like from it. Mix equal amounts and the stuff expands about twenty times. I applied the thinnest coat possible to the back of some Styrofoam and slapped it on a piece of sheet metal. It raised about 1 cm and held with 100% coverage under the Styrofoam. I need to find a supplier of fire resistant insulation board and I think I will apply in this way to the entire hull above the water line. Has to be cheaper than spraying the insulation? Gerald| 4861|4861|2004-07-25 12:03:48|knutfg|Welding skill required|I have just signed up as a member of this group and I am also new to the subject of steel boat building. I recently finished a small wooden boat project, a Stevenson Project Weekender made of plywood. Now the bug (boat building bug) may have attacked again?? I know it is probably dangerous to even think about technical and practical issues regarding an Origami steel boat project but the fact that this method requires no temporary frames or molds is quite intriguing. The hull can be built directly without the need to buy lots of materials that will not be part of the boat (if I understand this correctly. My main reason to post though is to ask if anyone has expeprience with the kind of hull/keel type that Gerd is presenting on his site (the Yago Project). That is, with two daggerboards (one on each side of the hull) and ballast placed inside the bottom of the hull? How well is such a design going to work beating upwind and what about stability and stiffness against sail pressure? To start welding an origami hull, what education and training would be required to ensure the necessary quality of all welds? I am a total novice in welding and wondering how difficult it may be?| 4862|4846|2004-07-25 14:01:43|Gerd|Re: ordering plans?|Greame & Ben - stop whining, just upladed todays pics ;-) Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4863|1509|2004-07-25 14:05:52|Gerd|Re: Insulation|Gerald, that sounds VERY interesting - can you give us brands and composition? I remember having had some strange reactions between glues and styro, sometimes only after a couple of days. What does the styro-side look when you take it apart? Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4864|4861|2004-07-25 14:13:50|Mike|Re: Welding skill required|If you plan to use steel, the length of training time needed to be proficient - that is, to be confident that your welds are of sufficient quality - is fairly short in duration. Although some students take longer than others, with a good teacher, I would venture to estimate about a month of schooling for SMAW, another two weeks to a month for GMAW or FCAW, and a week, or less, for oxy- acetylene cutting. There are many welding-related archived posts in this group. You will note that I highly recommend that a "rookie" welder does not tackle welding of aluminum. I would, also, recommend that you visit the local trade school welding department and sit down with the head instructor to discuss what you want to do and how they can best assist you in attaining your goal. Laying a weld bead, for most people, is not rocket science. Still, understanding how to avoid problems - such as deformation of the plates you are welding - will make a difference in the quality of the constructed vessel. One of the many "tidbits" of value in Brent Swain's book is his dissertations on how the plate should be welded to ensure structural integrity, while maintaining the highest possible esthetic quality. Hope this helps. Regards, Mike Graham --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > ... To start welding an origami hull, what education and training would > be required to ensure the necessary quality of all welds? I am a > total novice in welding and wondering how difficult it may be? | 4865|1509|2004-07-25 14:34:02|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: Insulation|Hi , are you using pink or blue foam insulation? how are you applying the thin coat of foam, I'm imagining some sort of trawling it on? Brent recommends latex paint to fire proof the exposed insulation. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4866|4861|2004-07-25 14:50:04|Gerd|daggerboards|Hi Knut - good to hear you speak up here, looks you are already well advanced on the road to perdition ;-) I already gave you some info offline in my mail, but there may be more people here with the same question, and it's an interesting subject. here is my point: hydrodynamically a board will perform to windward as well as a fixed fin keel of the same shape meaning not bad at all if it is high aspect and nicely profiled. The fact that with lateral boards your board is further to lee, in clearer and less perturbed water should help, as well as the fact that it will add lift/righting moment when heeled. When running you can lift them up, reducing wetted area which will also give more speed. I have sailed centerboarders like that (with one single central daggeboard board,but just the same type of hull, 10 m) and going downhill with the board almost up was great, big increase both in speed and in directional stability because the lead increases dramatically and the boat just "hangs" on its skeg and runs like on rails. We also got into some fairly nasty weather, and tried to see the way the boat would behave then - we lifted the keels and abruptly broached the boat, with nothing to stumble over in the water she would simply bob away sideways in the bubbly top layer, with much less of the sickening lurch and heel you would get on a keel boat in the same manoever. I believe if you are in really bad weather, moving your lateral center backwards to prevent broaching and not having a deep keel in solid water that yould trip you when broaching is a significant advance in capsize prevention. Finally you can beach it easily of course which is the real reason I choose this configuration. The big disadvantage (apart from having to handle them) is weight, with inside ballast you easily add something like 30 % or more of additional ballast, and of course you also want to increase the hull depth more than you would do on a modern keel hull, meaning your hull will be "fatter". (You could of course build a YAGO with keel, but I would then prefer to re-design with smaller diplacement to begin with, so as to profit from the decrease in ballast.) Difficulties: You will find that you will build a 30 to 36 footer hull faster than your plywood weekender hull. No kidding, It took me about the same time to knock my hull together than it took me to build just the hull for my 5.5 m stitch&glue SWAN BAY by Murray Isles. Welding: that's the only disadvantage of the ORIGAMI method. In cnventinal building projects, if you build first your jig, frames and structure, by the time you actually start welding your first plates, you should be at ease... with origami that's what you start with right away. If you have no experience get yourself a ton of scrap and stick it together. Signing up for a welding school would also help - not so much for the strength of your welds but for the way it will look. Gerd The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4867|1509|2004-07-25 15:57:17|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|First off you need to know that I live in Brazil so the brand name Scuna probably means nothing to you. I didn't look at the West System site but I would guess they sell a two part foam? The Styrofoam board that I did the test with is just common old white Styrofoam. The type that protected that brand new refrigerator that you wife bought last year. I had done tests with contact cement but contact cement eats the Styrofoam, big time! I am sure that in North America you can buy foam board that is already fire resistant. I need to find a source here also. The two part foam that I cut away, under the white Styrofoam, looked like it had dissolved part of the white Styrofoam but not to a great extent. I applied the liquid foam thin as possible with a piece of scrap wood. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Gerald, that sounds VERY interesting - can you give us brands and > composition? I remember having had some strange reactions between > glues and styro, sometimes only after a couple of days. What does > the styro-side look when you take it apart? > > Gerd > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 4868|1509|2004-07-25 15:59:53|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|If you can't find two part foam I would think that GreatStuff or one of the canned foams would also work as a binder? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > First off you need to know that I live in Brazil so the brand name > Scuna probably means nothing to you. I didn't look at the West System > site but I would guess they sell a two part foam? The Styrofoam board > that I did the test with is just common old white Styrofoam. The type > that protected that brand new refrigerator that you wife bought last > year. I had done tests with contact cement but contact cement eats the > Styrofoam, big time! I am sure that in North America you can buy foam > board that is already fire resistant. I need to find a source here > also. The two part foam that I cut away, under the white Styrofoam, > looked like it had dissolved part of the white Styrofoam but not to a > great extent. I applied the liquid foam thin as possible with a piece > of scrap wood. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > Gerald, that sounds VERY interesting - can you give us brands and > > composition? I remember having had some strange reactions between > > glues and styro, sometimes only after a couple of days. What does > > the styro-side look when you take it apart? > > > > Gerd > > > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 4869|1509|2004-07-26 00:38:24|kendall|Re: Insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > > If you can't find two part foam I would think that GreatStuff or one > of the canned foams would also work as a binder? > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > First off you need to know that I live in Brazil so the brand name > > Scuna probably means nothing to you. I didn't look at the West System > > site but I would guess they sell a two part foam? The Styrofoam board > > that I did the test with is just common old white Styrofoam. The type > > that protected that brand new refrigerator that you wife bought last > > year. I had done tests with contact cement but contact cement eats the > > Styrofoam, big time! I am sure that in North America you can buy foam > > board that is already fire resistant. I need to find a source here > > also. The two part foam that I cut away, under the white Styrofoam, > > looked like it had dissolved part of the white Styrofoam but not to a > > great extent. I applied the liquid foam thin as possible with a piece > > of scrap wood. > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > > > Gerald, that sounds VERY interesting - can you give us brands and > > > composition? I remember having had some strange reactions between > > > glues and styro, sometimes only after a couple of days. What does > > > the styro-side look when you take it apart? > > > > > > Gerd > > > > > > The YAGO Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ At one time I'd considered great-stuff for filler/binder/floatation use, and after experimenting I found that it would absorb water, especially if anything happened to the 'skin' that forms over the top of it. I didn't experiment anymore after that so don't know if the adhesion was affected, or if it's strength is compromised, so on that you are on your own, just thought I'd comment in case you were planning on using it as floatation. It is excellent in forming a base for fiberglass, it is easy to shape with normal woodworking tools (stanley surform tools work great) and doesn't 'melt' with the resin (poly, never tried epoxy) and does adhere well to most things. fantastic for things such as bridges and so on. The best foam I have found for making things with is the yellow polyisocyanacrylate stuff, generally sold in sheets, it is not effected by most solvents, and is a pretty strong 'board' (once built an entire front end for a car with the stuff, that turned into a bunch of custom parts jobs) when covered with fiberglass it makes an extremely rigid construct, I never used it on a boat, however, being an open cell foam, it may wick moisture, so I'd be leary of using it in a boat without further experimentation, especially in any 'life-dependant' situations. any of the poly-iso's also pruduce hazardous fumes when exposed to flame. Making it a questionable safety measure. the experiment as to water resistance consisted of spraying a large 'glob' on a sheet of plastic, letting it set-up for a couple of days, peeling it from the plastic (breaking the skin in the process) then dunking it in a bucket of water for 1 minute, then noting the water that ran out of it, it pretty much filled up with water, negating the plans I had for it, which was replacing the waterlogged styrofoam flotation in an old O'day sprite. I ended up replacing it with more styrofoam,painted with a thick coat of latex paint. currently looking into the feasability of encapsulating the polyiso foam in something, as it is 'larger per pound' than styrofoam. I plan to try using the foam in an 'undisturbed' state later to see if the skin helps with water absorbtion later on, but haven't had the time or funds to do so yet. (yeah I know it's cheap, but...) maybe filling pop bottyles or milk-jugs with the stuff and binding them together somehow would make a fantastic safety system. Note: if I seem to run on, I wish to apologize, I lost my sister last week, and have been drinking heavily, she was a great friend and confident to me and at one time she hitch-hiked 2400 miles to get my brother and I out of juvinile hall, it was a major blow to me and I have at present not come to terms with it, apologies for stating thios on the group, but she was a great friend, and I already miss her a lot but the only way I know how to deal with it is to keep going on. forgive me sis, I love ya.| 4870|4870|2004-07-26 01:09:16|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Brent Geery's definition of a HP|And if I pee over the transon under way I can double my boatspeed! the fellow mentioned doubling Hp by running ac motors. but i guess your right a maximum of .7watts per hp is a huge differance. is there any chance we can split a hair even finer?... ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4871|1509|2004-07-26 05:21:05|sae140|Re: Insulation|Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on insulation, but I've just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from a high street shed to fill the box seats on me dink. Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on the can claimed that the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can volume". And also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial volume". Confused ? Me too. The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to *anything and everything* - no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up looking like a candyfloss stick. Had hoped to use this stuff (along with polystyrene sheets), to foam the boat - but no chance of doing it with this particular brand. Worst thing was - spraying water onto the surface to be foamed is compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick layer applied - the water is required for curing. Is this true for all can foams ? Colin| 4872|1509|2004-07-26 09:46:49|knutfg|Re: Insulation|Colin, polyurethane (PU) foams are primarily of two different kinds: One component and two component. The one-comp. types are dependent on water or humidity to produce the CO2 gas that creates the foaming action. With two-comp. this is not the case, they will foam anyway after a given time (also temperature dependent). Typical foam factor (volume increase) can be 20-30 times original volume, but that is when foaming unrestricted. Also be aware that if you fill some sort of enclosed void, the foam can generate substantial pressure if you inject too much material and/or the opening allowing overflow is too small. The material will stick to anything as you found out and I don't think any such product can be throwelled to prepare a targeted surface. On the other hand, it is easy to cut and shape after it has foamed up and hardened, especially if the foam is rigid. Most foams will be rigid, but there are also elastic types. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on insulation, but I've > just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from a high street shed to > fill the box seats on me dink. > Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on the can claimed that > the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can volume". And > also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial volume". Confused ? Me > too. > The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to *anything and everything* - > no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up looking like a > candyfloss stick. > Had hoped to use this stuff (along with polystyrene sheets), to foam > the boat - but no chance of doing it with this particular brand. > > Worst thing was - spraying water onto the surface to be foamed is > compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick layer applied - the > water is required for curing. Is this true for all can foams ? > > Colin | 4873|4846|2004-07-26 23:02:12|Ben Tucker|Re: ordering plans?|Thanks gerd, The deck looks great, is it 2mm? did you cut it to shape first and pull the hull in to suit or was it cut to the shape of the existing deckedge? Also the bow shape looks really nice. cheers Ben Ps sorry for pestering you but you know what us boatbuilding junkies are like!| 4874|4846|2004-07-27 05:36:58|Gerd|Re: ordering plans?|Ben, the hull's quite wobbly without the deck, so the deck is drawn, cut and reinforced (stringers only) to CAD dimensions and then the hull brought to it to define the sheer. the aft end then still sags and needs to be temporarily supported, until the camber and precise hull-width at that point is defined by the front panel of the cabin, which is full width on Yago, no sidedecks. Same the for the decks aft. What will be more difficult is to define the sheer's curve in the very flat angle between the cabin sides and the hull, but we will see that when I get there ;-) yes, 2 mm, and a pain to keep fair, have to be very carful. Gerd The Yago Project at http://www.justmueller.com/boats| 4875|1058|2004-07-27 15:50:17|John Jones|Re: Steel list for 40ft boat|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Christie" wrote: > Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: > > Hull: > 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull > 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull > 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom > > Deck: > 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks > 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc > 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides > 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops > > Stiffeners: > 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle > 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar > 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe > > Keel, single -- I'll have to ask Brent next month about twin keel > parts; he is somewhere out in the middle of the S. Pacific right > now, heading towards Christmas Island in his 31 foot twin keeler -- > lucky guy!) > 1-8x10x1/4" plate > 1-2x12x1/2" plate > 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 > > Twin keel uses 2.5" shaft steel--not pipe-- this I do know! > > The following items can be pre-built before the hull even takes > shape, and require mostly stainless steel, or aluminum for hatches. > The materials for these would all be based on plans in the book: > Anchor winch (ss) > mast tabernacle (ss) > bow roller (ss) > anchor winch handle pad (ss) > mooring bitts (3, made of pipe, plate, and rod) > cleats (ss rod) > stanchions (ss pipe, 1", I think) > chainplates (ss plate) > chockliners (3/8" ss rod, and some 1/2" for bow and stern chockliners) > > SS ball valves - 2-1.5", 2-3/4" > aluminum for forehatch > ss doubler plates below mooring bits > ss rod and pipe for gudgeons and pintles > ss for self steering > > plexiglass or lexan for portlights in cabinsides and top of ph > > The dimensions for everything that can be prebuilt are noted on the > plans and in the book -- it is really a matter of going through it > all and making up a master list, then keeping your eyes peeled for > good scrounge deals. *When* I start my boat (famous last words), > I'll try and keep track of my list, which I'll share with the group. > Some of you may be finished your boats by the time I get started, > judging by the way things are going around here (house renovations!). Alex, I've only put the hull together so far but, even if you measure off the plans you'll notice that the "lower hull plate" IE: the piece you add to the bottom is not 12' but 22' and change long and i,m not so sure about those stringers length either... and the framing on the hard chine??? is it to be spaced about 4' apart? John another 40' builder| 4876|1509|2004-07-28 05:00:03|jim_both|Re: Insulation|Rather than trowelling it on, I wonder if there would be sufficient mixing action to initiate the two component foam into a reaction by brushing one of the components on the painted hull and the other component on a foam panel? If the chemical reaction started with this method, it could be used to stick a cheaper foam (ie styrofoam) to the hull with DIY PU, to increase the thermal factor. I'm not saying that styrofoam would be the best choice, but even PU panels would be cheaper to buy than to spray foam to achieve, say 2" of closed cell insulation. jim_both --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > Colin, > > polyurethane (PU) foams are primarily of two different kinds: One > component and two component. The one-comp. types are dependent on > water or humidity to produce the CO2 gas that creates the foaming > action. With two-comp. this is not the case, they will foam anyway > after a given time (also temperature dependent). Typical foam factor > (volume increase) can be 20-30 times original volume, but that is > when foaming unrestricted. Also be aware that if you fill some sort > of enclosed void, the foam can generate substantial pressure if you > inject too much material and/or the opening allowing overflow is too > small. > The material will stick to anything as you found out and I don't > think any such product can be throwelled to prepare a targeted > surface. On the other hand, it is easy to cut and shape after it has > foamed up and hardened, especially if the foam is rigid. Most foams > will be rigid, but there are also elastic types. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on insulation, but I've > > just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from a high street shed > to > > fill the box seats on me dink. > > Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on the can claimed > that > > the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can volume". And > > also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial volume". Confused ? > Me > > too. > > The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to *anything and everything* - > > no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up looking like a > > candyfloss stick. > > Had hoped to use this stuff (along with polystyrene sheets), to > foam > > the boat - but no chance of doing it with this particular brand. > > > > Worst thing was - spraying water onto the surface to be foamed is > > compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick layer applied - the > > water is required for curing. Is this true for all can foams ? > > > > Colin | 4877|1509|2004-07-28 12:11:48|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|I did a test of the no mix suggestion. When putting the two parts together without mixing it takes much longer before it starts to foam and set up. When it sets up there is an oil like substance that you can feel on the outer hull of the foam. The real down side is that the foam is like cotton candy and turns to a powder when you press on it. Looks like it must be mixed! I also tried a few pieces with on part brushed onto the Styrofoam and the other part brushed onto the metal. I agitated the Styrofoam against the metal to mix it. It works but also produces a very weak, air filled foam. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Rather than trowelling it on, I wonder if there would be sufficient > mixing action to initiate the two component foam into a reaction by > brushing one of the components on the painted hull and the other > component on a foam panel? If the chemical reaction started with > this method, it could be used to stick a cheaper foam (ie styrofoam) > to the hull with DIY PU, to increase the thermal factor. I'm not > saying that styrofoam would be the best choice, but even PU panels > would be cheaper to buy than to spray foam to achieve, say 2" of > closed cell insulation. > > jim_both > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > Colin, > > > > polyurethane (PU) foams are primarily of two different kinds: One > > component and two component. The one-comp. types are dependent on > > water or humidity to produce the CO2 gas that creates the foaming > > action. With two-comp. this is not the case, they will foam anyway > > after a given time (also temperature dependent). Typical foam > factor > > (volume increase) can be 20-30 times original volume, but that is > > when foaming unrestricted. Also be aware that if you fill some sort > > of enclosed void, the foam can generate substantial pressure if you > > inject too much material and/or the opening allowing overflow is > too > > small. > > The material will stick to anything as you found out and I don't > > think any such product can be throwelled to prepare a targeted > > surface. On the other hand, it is easy to cut and shape after it > has > > foamed up and hardened, especially if the foam is rigid. Most foams > > will be rigid, but there are also elastic types. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > wrote: > > > Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on insulation, but > I've > > > just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from a high street > shed > > to > > > fill the box seats on me dink. > > > Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on the can claimed > > that > > > the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can volume". And > > > also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial volume". Confused ? > > Me > > > too. > > > The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to *anything and > everything* - > > > no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up looking like a > > > candyfloss stick. > > > Had hoped to use this stuff (along with polystyrene sheets), to > > foam > > > the boat - but no chance of doing it with this particular brand. > > > > > > Worst thing was - spraying water onto the surface to be foamed is > > > compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick layer applied - > the > > > water is required for curing. Is this true for all can foams ? > > > > > > Colin | 4878|4878|2004-07-28 14:36:03|ben_azo|Cheap High-Tech Insulation|Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment its ofthen used as emergency blankett . How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape How do you attach it to the hull? Two systems : - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) -with adhesive that holds on both sides ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern making included . The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and personaly I would take nothing else , the system works best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions on metal and plastic boats. Worth looking into?? Just wondering Ben_azo| 4879|4846|2004-07-28 14:38:36|ben_azo|Re: ordering plans?|Please post some directions to the 26 ft plans Old Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi Jesse , good luck and please give me directions to the plans > you bought , I am curious to see more . > ben_azo > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "blueiceicle" > wrote: > > Hello eveyone > > > > Ive finaly decided to take my first big step and order some > plans > > for a 26ft twin keeler! (which i hope to extend to 28ft) > > > > Anyhow Id really like to get this in the mail by monday, and I > dont > > want to chance Brent not being near a computer this weekend > so, I > > thouhgt id ask the group..... Do I need to send extra money for > > plan postage or is that included in the price? if so how much? > > > > Hopefully someone here will know, Im currently in Edmonton, > Alberta > > so its not too far from the "Comox Valley" (my home town). > > > > Anyhow, best wishes to all, happy building/sailing > > > > P.S. Brent mentioned a fellow by the name of Evan who build a > 28ft > > of the 26ft plans, he didnt give me a last name but im hoping > he is > > part of this group. So if your out there Evan id love to hear from > > you, or anyone who knows who Evan is. lol my email is > > tunagouda@i... > > > > Thanks everyone Jesse | 4880|4878|2004-07-28 16:29:57|kendall|Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum > reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers > some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some > with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the > blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment > its ofthen used as emergency blankett . > How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape > How do you attach it to the hull? > Two systems : > - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , > one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) > -with adhesive that holds on both sides > ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) > I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens > main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, > or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look > 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern > making included . > The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and > personaly I would take nothing else , the system works > best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace > between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood > cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just > for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. > Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions > on metal and plastic boats. > Worth looking into?? Just wondering > Ben_azo quite a few of the home centers carry that and it is good stuff, had some in my garage works nicely, waterproof and lightweight, though it is not cheap. it also works nice in cars as a firewall/kick panel blanket, keeps the heat out of the passenger compartment and deadens noise slightly. ken.| 4881|4881|2004-07-28 17:02:08|Gerd|I'm off|Guys, since I met you a couple of months ago I sure have had a great time, what with designing the boat and discussing anti-capsize leadweights in the mast and submarine skegs and other fascinating topics, not to forget having ruined my lawn with scrap iron, building the hull and all that other stuff in addition to my dayly bred and butter occupation. But enough is enough. I am packing. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation.... ;-) see you middle of next month, until then I will try not think of you, sitting on the beach on an island in Croatia, belly in the sun and feet in the water. Gerd The YAGO project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/| 4882|4878|2004-07-28 17:26:47|Michael Casling|Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation|This is just a caution when using glue, it is a one way ticket if you breath too much of it. You can not be recovered with oxygen. Use it outside, with lots of air, use a mask or the BS mask pumped air system. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: ben_azo To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Cheap High-Tech Insulation Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment its ofthen used as emergency blankett . How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape How do you attach it to the hull? Two systems : - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) -with adhesive that holds on both sides ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern making included . The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and personaly I would take nothing else , the system works best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions on metal and plastic boats. Worth looking into?? Just wondering Ben_azo To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4883|4881|2004-07-28 18:35:52|fmichael graham|Re: I'm off|GO, GERD, GO! LOL! Gerd wrote:topics, not to forget having ruined my lawn with scrap iron, building the hull and all that other stuff in addition to my dayly bred and butter occupation. But enough is enough. I am packing. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. We are currently on vacation.... ;-) see you middle of next month, until then I will try not think of you, sitting on the beach on an island in Croatia, belly in the sun and feet in the water. Gerd The YAGO project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129t9mone/M=296967.5240014.6349583.3294649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1091134929/A=2196952/R=0/id=flashurl/SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_1.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129t9mone/M=296967.5240014.6349583.3294649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1091134929/A=2196952/R=1/id=altimgurl/SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_061504.jpg";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4884|4742|2004-07-28 18:54:03|Charles Leblanc|Re: Aluminum question|All the 5000 secies aluminum alloy have good corrosion resistance and provide good properties even after welding. The Marine grade alloy 5086-H116 has a to pass a specific test against corrosion and scaling. 5052 and 5054 have every bit as good in corrosion resistance but since their mechanical properties are not as interesting, they do not have to go trough that certification and they end up being cheaper and more available. It would be like building a boat with steel that is not Lloyd's approved or ABS approved... It is not a big deal as long as the material had good properties and is well maintained. Now about the last numbers, there is a difference between 5052H34 and 5052H38, in the amount of deformation that you can give to the metal. Unfortunatly I left my handbook at work but it is a simple concept 5052 is the alloy chemical composition. It will not have a heat treatment. The H is mechanical hardening, the will be stretch it into plates and the plates will already have some deformation built into them. Often they have a relaxing treatment. H34 has less deformation already into it, H38 has more. it means that when you try to bend the H38, it will be stiffer (it is not stiffer but it will make more force to bend it) and also the amount of derofmation that it can take before it breaks is lower. For example, is it can take 9% of deformation and you bend it at places 5%, you only have 4% deformation available in that region before it cracks. In Naval construction, we like to have a metal that will take alot of deformation before it breaks. That way, if you run into a semi submerged container while surfing a steep wave, the hull will deform but it will not breake and you will not sink. Now for the recommendation: If you can find 5052H112, it is almost as good as 5083 and 5086 If the boat doesn't have very deformed plating, the 5052 H34 should be safe. You should be able to get 5052H32 or 5052H34. 5052H38 was more deformation into it and should be avoided for the hull unless because there is a risk for cracks while benfing it in certasin areas If you have some places where there is alot of deformation, you might try a relaxing treatment. I do not have access to an ASTM Meteallurgical handbook but is is usually heating the aluminum for a few minutes to a specifit temperature and it will loose some of it internal "memory" about the deformation. However, this will also decrease the mechanical properties of the metal. An metallurgical engineer could give you a recipe to relax your aluminum. Finally, all good metal distributor will be able to give you some information about your aluminum like the minimum bending radius of the allow with their thickness and the mechanical properties of the alloy that you are buying. Charles Leblanc --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > Hi > > I always thought about having a metal boat and aluminum was my first > choice but when I moved to S. America, the idea of building a boat > out of aLuminum became a big problem. The so called marine alloys > aren't made down here, at least commercialy. You can only get the > 5083 or 5086 alloys under special order and the minimum order they > take is 6 tons. However, you can get the 5052H34 and H38. After some > research, i fopund out that the mechanical charachteristics of both > alloys are very close to the 5083 or 5086. So, I'd like to know wht > you guys think about. Dou you think it's safe to build a boat with > the 5052H38 alloy? the price is about 4 US dollars/ Kilo. On thte > aother side, the price for steel is less than 1 dollar/Kilo. Any > comments on that? | 4885|4878|2004-07-28 19:38:43|Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy|Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation|Hi all, I've been thinking alot about the insulating thing. I'm personally not a big fan of sprayed in foam because of a chemical sensitivity problem. A couple of things I found from looking at different insulation systems- the white expanded polystyrene (foam) is NOT waterproof. The extruded polyfoam (usually a blueboard or pink board) is waterproof and high resistance to crushing too-but definitely degrades with UV so don't store it outside, also I think its really hard to get it to stick to a curved shape, the approved for foam glue in a tube that I experimented with created a wet bond that never dried, when I seperated a couple of pieces I'd glued it was still wet and seemed somewhat degraded at the bond after 11 months; also to fill all the gaps on a curved shape would be difficult at least. I believe that the expanding foam in a can is also not waterproof. I'm looking at the foil faced bubble wrap as a possible option, Although it claims to be R12 I think thats its effective R value based on radiant reflection properties... Home Depot sells it in big rolls, I think its about $0.50 per square foot (us). In the plumbing area they have this cool metal ducting tape, its foil and much easier to remove than regular duck tape with the cloth backing, that's what I'd use to install it. If anyone has used the bubble insulation on their metal boat I hope you post about how its working. Btw, this site has been so pleasant to read lately, vacations are good! Nicole On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:36 PM, ben_azo wrote: Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment its ofthen used as emergency blankett . How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape How do you attach it to the hull? Two systems : - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , �� one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) -with adhesive that holds on both sides �� ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) �� I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens �� main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, �� or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern making included . The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and personaly I would take nothing else , the system works best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions on metal and plastic boats. Worth looking into?? Just wondering Ben_azo To Post a message, send it to:�� origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Yahoo! Groups Links � To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ � � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com � � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4886|4878|2004-07-28 20:35:04|ben_azo|Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation|It was used on some steel expedition-sailboat to the artic so I wanted to try it out myself in a metal van I used for more than 100000km ( just sold it last week ) , as a mobile office for the Belgian nautical press . It sure did the insulation job well see http://tinyurl.com/2cnnn , even in very hot sunshine the Van always stay cool inside , it was used summer and winter to visit boatshows ( I used the same blankets to insulate the windows at night , and even in freesing outside conditions the webasto always easely kept the little boatcabin on wheels cosy and dry. I now use it even when refurbishing glassfiberboats , many serie-construction boats have car like seiling finish and its so easy to replace it with the blankets on rolls when they have a vynil white or cream finish , all you need is a bycomponend epoxy injection neadle to give a matelasé appearance ; in Europ Seta-Bever sells the epoxy double container that end in one needle ( it works as a regular injection needle ) I sure am going to try it out , stiched into a hunting jacked , cause it can be cold out there . I also saw some mayor Tent , Cabin and Yurt-manufacturers offering it as extra for their Yurts for camping in the snow just find it via any searchmachine , I am sure it will work as fine for keeping cool under it in the tropics . Many products and very different prices to find , bye some samples and do some tests , and see for yourself ben_azo --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: > Hi all, I've been thinking alot about the insulating thing. I'm > personally not a big fan of sprayed in foam because of a chemical > sensitivity problem. A couple of things I found from looking at > different insulation systems- the white expanded polystyrene (foam) is > NOT waterproof. The extruded polyfoam (usually a blueboard or pink > board) is waterproof and high resistance to crushing too-but definitely > degrades with UV so don't store it outside, also I think its really > hard to get it to stick to a curved shape, the approved for foam glue > in a tube that I experimented with created a wet bond that never dried, > when I seperated a couple of pieces I'd glued it was still wet and > seemed somewhat degraded at the bond after 11 months; also to fill all > the gaps on a curved shape would be difficult at least. I believe that > the expanding foam in a can is also not waterproof. I'm looking at the > foil faced bubble wrap as a possible option, Although it claims to be > R12 I think thats its effective R value based on radiant reflection > properties... Home Depot sells it in big rolls, I think its about > $0.50 per square foot (us). In the plumbing area they have this cool > metal ducting tape, its foil and much easier to remove than regular > duck tape with the cloth backing, that's what I'd use to install it. > If anyone has used the bubble insulation on their metal boat I hope you > post about how its working. Btw, this site has been so pleasant to read > lately, vacations are good! Nicole > > On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:36 PM, ben_azo wrote: > > Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum > reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers > some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some > with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the > blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment > its ofthen used as emergency blankett . > How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape > How do you attach it to the hull? > Two systems : > - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , >    one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) > -with adhesive that holds on both sides >    ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) >    I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens >    main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, >    or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look > 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern > making included . > The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and > personaly I would take nothing else , the system works > best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace > between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood > cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just > for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. > Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions > on metal and plastic boats. > Worth looking into?? Just wondering > Ben_azo > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >   > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4887|4887|2004-07-29 00:32:05|p8r2004|For Sale?|Hi All, Does anyone keep track of Swain boats/hulls for sale? I found one in San Carlos Mexico but that's all.| 4888|4888|2004-07-29 04:23:10|ben_azo|26 ft trailerable twinkeeler|any directions to see some plans and sketches ? thanks in advance ben_azo| 4889|4889|2004-07-29 11:39:43|SHANE ROTHWELL|Re: Spray Foam|Hi All, I worked on the American mega flop "Cronicles of Riddick" in which we used about 40 tonns of foam stuck together with cans of spray foam. read the MSDS sheet on it and wear an organic vapour respirator or use remote air as it's really nasty stuff! Cheers, Shane --- origamiboats@yahoogroups.com wrote: > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/YmoolB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > There are 12 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Insulation > From: "jim_both" > > 2. Re: Insulation > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > 3. Cheap High-Tech Insulation > From: "ben_azo" > 4. Re: ordering plans? > From: "ben_azo" > 5. Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation > From: "kendall" > 6. I'm off > From: "Gerd" > 7. Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation > From: Michael Casling > 8. Re: I'm off > From: fmichael graham > > 9. Re: Aluminum question > From: "Charles Leblanc" > > 10. Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation > From: Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy > > 11. Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation > From: "ben_azo" > 12. For Sale? > From: "p8r2004" > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 08:59:53 -0000 > From: "jim_both" > Subject: Re: Insulation > > Rather than trowelling it on, I wonder if there > would be sufficient > mixing action to initiate the two component foam > into a reaction by > brushing one of the components on the painted hull > and the other > component on a foam panel? If the chemical reaction > started with > this method, it could be used to stick a cheaper > foam (ie styrofoam) > to the hull with DIY PU, to increase the thermal > factor. I'm not > saying that styrofoam would be the best choice, but > even PU panels > would be cheaper to buy than to spray foam to > achieve, say 2" of > closed cell insulation. > > jim_both > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" > wrote: > > Colin, > > > > polyurethane (PU) foams are primarily of two > different kinds: One > > component and two component. The one-comp. types > are dependent on > > water or humidity to produce the CO2 gas that > creates the foaming > > action. With two-comp. this is not the case, they > will foam anyway > > after a given time (also temperature dependent). > Typical foam > factor > > (volume increase) can be 20-30 times original > volume, but that is > > when foaming unrestricted. Also be aware that if > you fill some sort > > of enclosed void, the foam can generate > substantial pressure if you > > inject too much material and/or the opening > allowing overflow is > too > > small. > > The material will stick to anything as you found > out and I don't > > think any such product can be throwelled to > prepare a targeted > > surface. On the other hand, it is easy to cut and > shape after it > has > > foamed up and hardened, especially if the foam is > rigid. Most foams > > will be rigid, but there are also elastic types. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > > wrote: > > > Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on > insulation, but > I've > > > just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from > a high street > shed > > to > > > fill the box seats on me dink. > > > Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on > the can claimed > > that > > > the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can > volume". And > > > also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial > volume". Confused ? > > Me > > > too. > > > The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to > *anything and > everything* - > > > no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up > looking like a > > > candyfloss stick. > > > Had hoped to use this stuff (along with > polystyrene sheets), to > > foam > > > the boat - but no chance of doing it with this > particular brand. > > > > > > Worst thing was - spraying water onto the > surface to be foamed is > > > compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick > layer applied - > the > > > water is required for curing. Is this true for > all can foams ? > > > > > > Colin > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 16:10:19 -0000 > From: "Gerald Niffenegger" > > Subject: Re: Insulation > > I did a test of the no mix suggestion. When putting > the two parts > together without mixing it takes much longer before > it starts to foam > and set up. When it sets up there is an oil like > substance that you > can feel on the outer hull of the foam. The real > down side is that the > foam is like cotton candy and turns to a powder when > you press on it. > Looks like it must be mixed! I also tried a few > pieces with on part > brushed onto the Styrofoam and the other part > brushed onto the metal. > I agitated the Styrofoam against the metal to mix > it. It works but > also produces a very weak, air filled foam. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" > wrote: > > Rather than trowelling it on, I wonder if there > would be sufficient > > mixing action to initiate the two component foam > into a reaction by > > brushing one of the components on the painted hull > and the other > > component on a foam panel? If the chemical > reaction started with > > this method, it could be used to stick a cheaper > foam (ie styrofoam) > > to the hull with DIY PU, to increase the thermal > factor. I'm not > > saying that styrofoam would be the best choice, > but even PU panels > > would be cheaper to buy than to spray foam to > achieve, say 2" of > > closed cell insulation. > > > > jim_both > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" > === message truncated === ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca| 4890|4742|2004-07-29 13:00:12|spencerj71|Re: Aluminum question|There's an interesting article in Workboat this month on this subject. It mostly deal with the failure of 5083-H321 vessels built in the pacific northwest of the U.S. About $100 million dollars worth of boats experienced pitting and cracking where small pockets of the alloying magnesium dissolved in salt water. The material sold did not undergo the proper ASTM tests to be sold in the marine market. As a result of these failures, there is a new ASTM specification for marine alloy (B928). I would be very wary of the alloy I purchased to build my boat, using only a reputable marine distibutor and preferably obtaining the testing certs. for the lot that the plate came from. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Leblanc" wrote: > All the 5000 secies aluminum alloy have good corrosion resistance and > provide good properties even after welding. > > The Marine grade alloy 5086-H116 has a to pass a specific test > against corrosion and scaling. > > 5052 and 5054 have every bit as good in corrosion resistance but > since their mechanical properties are not as interesting, they do > not have to go trough that certification and they end up being > cheaper and more available. > > It would be like building a boat with steel that is not Lloyd's > approved or ABS approved... It is not a big deal as long as the > material had good properties and is well maintained. > > Now about the last numbers, there is a difference between 5052H34 and > 5052H38, in the amount of deformation that you can give to the > metal. Unfortunatly I left my handbook at work but it is a simple > concept > > 5052 is the alloy chemical composition. It will not have a heat > treatment. > > The H is mechanical hardening, the will be stretch it into plates > and the plates will already have some deformation built into them. > Often they have a relaxing treatment. > H34 has less deformation already into it, H38 has more. it means > that when you try to bend the H38, it will be stiffer (it is not > stiffer but it will make more force to bend it) and also the amount > of derofmation that it can take before it breaks is lower. For > example, is it can take 9% of deformation and you bend it at places > 5%, you only have 4% deformation available in that region before it > cracks. > In Naval construction, we like to have a metal that will take alot of > deformation before it breaks. That way, if you run into a semi > submerged container while surfing a steep wave, the hull will deform > but it will not breake and you will not sink. > > Now for the recommendation: > If you can find 5052H112, it is almost as good as 5083 and 5086 > > If the boat doesn't have very deformed plating, the 5052 H34 should > be safe. You should be able to get 5052H32 or 5052H34. > > 5052H38 was more deformation into it and should be avoided for the > hull unless because there is a risk for cracks while benfing it in > certasin areas > > If you have some places where there is alot of deformation, you might > try a relaxing treatment. I do not have access to an ASTM > Meteallurgical handbook but is is usually heating the aluminum for a > few minutes to a specifit temperature and it will loose some of it > internal "memory" about the deformation. However, this will also > decrease the mechanical properties of the metal. > An metallurgical engineer could give you a recipe to relax your > aluminum. > > Finally, all good metal distributor will be able to give you some > information about your aluminum like the minimum bending radius of > the allow with their thickness and the mechanical properties of the > alloy that you are buying. > > Charles Leblanc > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > > Hi > > > > I always thought about having a metal boat and aluminum was my > first > > choice but when I moved to S. America, the idea of building a boat > > out of aLuminum became a big problem. The so called marine alloys > > aren't made down here, at least commercialy. You can only get the > > 5083 or 5086 alloys under special order and the minimum order they > > take is 6 tons. However, you can get the 5052H34 and H38. After > some > > research, i fopund out that the mechanical charachteristics of both > > alloys are very close to the 5083 or 5086. So, I'd like to know wht > > you guys think about. Dou you think it's safe to build a boat with > > the 5052H38 alloy? the price is about 4 US dollars/ Kilo. On thte > > aother side, the price for steel is less than 1 dollar/Kilo. Any > > comments on that? | 4891|4742|2004-07-29 13:38:42|Michael Casling|Re: Aluminum question|Metal Corrosion in Boats by Nigel Warren has good info on this subject as well. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: spencerj71 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum question There's an interesting article in Workboat this month on this subject. It mostly deal with the failure of 5083-H321 vessels built in the pacific northwest of the U.S. About $100 million dollars worth of boats experienced pitting and cracking where small pockets of the alloying magnesium dissolved in salt water. The material sold did not undergo the proper ASTM tests to be sold in the marine market. As a result of these failures, there is a new ASTM specification for marine alloy (B928). I would be very wary of the alloy I purchased to build my boat, using only a reputable marine distibutor and preferably obtaining the testing certs. for the lot that the plate came from. - Spencer --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Leblanc" wrote: > All the 5000 secies aluminum alloy have good corrosion resistance and > provide good properties even after welding. > > The Marine grade alloy 5086-H116 has a to pass a specific test > against corrosion and scaling. > > 5052 and 5054 have every bit as good in corrosion resistance but > since their mechanical properties are not as interesting, they do > not have to go trough that certification and they end up being > cheaper and more available. > > It would be like building a boat with steel that is not Lloyd's > approved or ABS approved... It is not a big deal as long as the > material had good properties and is well maintained. > > Now about the last numbers, there is a difference between 5052H34 and > 5052H38, in the amount of deformation that you can give to the > metal. Unfortunatly I left my handbook at work but it is a simple > concept > > 5052 is the alloy chemical composition. It will not have a heat > treatment. > > The H is mechanical hardening, the will be stretch it into plates > and the plates will already have some deformation built into them. > Often they have a relaxing treatment. > H34 has less deformation already into it, H38 has more. it means > that when you try to bend the H38, it will be stiffer (it is not > stiffer but it will make more force to bend it) and also the amount > of derofmation that it can take before it breaks is lower. For > example, is it can take 9% of deformation and you bend it at places > 5%, you only have 4% deformation available in that region before it > cracks. > In Naval construction, we like to have a metal that will take alot of > deformation before it breaks. That way, if you run into a semi > submerged container while surfing a steep wave, the hull will deform > but it will not breake and you will not sink. > > Now for the recommendation: > If you can find 5052H112, it is almost as good as 5083 and 5086 > > If the boat doesn't have very deformed plating, the 5052 H34 should > be safe. You should be able to get 5052H32 or 5052H34. > > 5052H38 was more deformation into it and should be avoided for the > hull unless because there is a risk for cracks while benfing it in > certasin areas > > If you have some places where there is alot of deformation, you might > try a relaxing treatment. I do not have access to an ASTM > Meteallurgical handbook but is is usually heating the aluminum for a > few minutes to a specifit temperature and it will loose some of it > internal "memory" about the deformation. However, this will also > decrease the mechanical properties of the metal. > An metallurgical engineer could give you a recipe to relax your > aluminum. > > Finally, all good metal distributor will be able to give you some > information about your aluminum like the minimum bending radius of > the allow with their thickness and the mechanical properties of the > alloy that you are buying. > > Charles Leblanc > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > > Hi > > > > I always thought about having a metal boat and aluminum was my > first > > choice but when I moved to S. America, the idea of building a boat > > out of aLuminum became a big problem. The so called marine alloys > > aren't made down here, at least commercialy. You can only get the > > 5083 or 5086 alloys under special order and the minimum order they > > take is 6 tons. However, you can get the 5052H34 and H38. After > some > > research, i fopund out that the mechanical charachteristics of both > > alloys are very close to the 5083 or 5086. So, I'd like to know wht > > you guys think about. Dou you think it's safe to build a boat with > > the 5052H38 alloy? the price is about 4 US dollars/ Kilo. On thte > > aother side, the price for steel is less than 1 dollar/Kilo. Any > > comments on that? To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4892|4892|2004-07-30 00:05:31|John Jones|Materials list|I often wonder if Brent has actually built a 40' hull.... kuz the materials list would have been modified by now if he did. @ pieces of 40X8' 3/16 steel and one piece of 12X8' 3/16 that should be 22X8' 3/16 aand the stringers???? should be installed before the frames. with such obvious little differences I'm kinda worried about the outcome of my project , I really can't affrord to have tooo many mistakes. Feces How goes your projects? John| 4893|1509|2004-07-30 05:16:27|sae140|Re: Insulation|Thanks for the feedback on different types of foam - much appreciated. Normally I research everything to the last nut and rivet before starting a job. This time I made an assumption and just got on with it. "That's another fine mess you've got me into ..." A couple of things I found from looking at different insulation systems - the white expanded polystyrene (foam) is NOT waterproof. I believe that the expanding foam in a can is also not waterproof. I'm a bit concerned to hear that polystyrene sheets aren't considered "waterproof" - I'm forever seeing bits of this stuff floating around on waterways waiting for the sun's UV to decompose it. Never seen it lying around underwater, and I've used it successfully for insulation in a permanently wet mist propagator - so in my book, for all intents and purposes, the stuff certainly appears "waterproof" - in the sense that each cell won't absorb water - however, I would concede that the sheet 'as a whole' may not be a 100% effective vapour barrier, although it does seems ok in practice. The can of the one-part foam used states that the foam "insulates against moisture" - dunno if that's sales-speak for "waterproof". Oh well, it's only a dink. Colin| 4894|1509|2004-07-30 15:40:32|edward_stoneuk|Re: Insulation|I am sure that I have seen large polystyrene blocks used as flotation for the pontoons in marinas. I don't live near to one so cannot check. Regards, Ted| 4895|4742|2004-07-30 16:00:17|edward_stoneuk|Re: Aluminum question|When I was a lad my father had an old car with an aluminium body. The front mudguards /fenders used to crack above the wheel due to work hardening. My father welded them up with oxy acetylene which softened the aluminium considerably. To soften work hardened areas to beat out dents he would gently heat up the area with the gas torch until oil that he had squirted on from an oil can burnt black. That was the correct temperature to anneal the aluminium. Copper tube acts in a similar way. Bending it work hardens it and then it can be softened or annealed by heating. I would need to know a lot more than I know now about the correct design for an aluminum boat to avoid work hardening and cracking in use before I built one. Regards, Ted| 4896|1509|2004-07-30 17:10:30|kendall|Re: Insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Thanks for the feedback on different types of foam - much > appreciated. Normally I research everything to the last nut and > rivet before starting a job. This time I made an assumption and just > got on with it. "That's another fine mess you've got me into ..." > > A couple of things I found from looking at different > insulation systems - the white expanded polystyrene (foam) is > NOT waterproof. I believe that the expanding foam in a can > is also not waterproof. > > I'm a bit concerned to hear that polystyrene sheets aren't > considered "waterproof" - I'm forever seeing bits of this stuff > floating around on waterways waiting for the sun's UV to decompose > it. Never seen it lying around underwater, and I've used it > successfully for insulation in a permanently wet mist propagator - so > in my book, for all intents and purposes, the stuff certainly > appears "waterproof" - in the sense that each cell won't absorb > water - however, I would concede that the sheet 'as a whole' may not > be a 100% effective vapour barrier, although it does seems ok in > practice. > > The can of the one-part foam used states that the foam "insulates > against moisture" - dunno if that's sales-speak for "waterproof". > Oh well, it's only a dink. > > Colin the regular styrofoam beadboard, will absorb moisture, it takes a while, but it will, if constantly submerged water soaks into it, and it is impossible to remove. it will "shed" water though and is waterproof in that respect, the reason you never see it laying on the bottom, is that even when full of water, it is still lighter than water, so will always float, but it will be more like warm water rising to the top on cold water. for floatation, the beadboard is great, but it only takes roughly a winter sitting in water for it to become soaked. (they do or did make boats of the stuff with no coating on it) the canned foam will also soak up water, and all it takes is a good dunking, especialy when the surface skin is broken.| 4897|1509|2004-07-30 18:33:42|fmichael graham|Insulation|I used polystyrene sheets when I insulated my 30' plastic. I would suggest that one avoid this as I found out that the sheets deteriorate very quickly into millions of little clumps of sh*t. Spray-on foam is a better way to go. There are other, more suitable, sheets of insulating material which can be used but the insulating that I did was 9 years ago and I don't remember what was available. Ferenc Mate, in his book, "The Finely Fitted Yacht", talked about the good & the bad. Maybe, there is someone in the group whom has the book & would be willing to summarize Mate's discourse on this subject. Regards, Mike --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4898|1509|2004-07-30 21:34:45|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|Mike I found this definition of the product you used: >>>Polystyrene is an inexpensive and hard plastic, and probably only polyethyleneis more common in your everyday life. The outside housing of the computer you are using now is probably made of polystyrene. Model cars and airplanes are made from polystyrene, and it also is made in the form of foam packaging and insulation (StyrofoamTM is one brand of polystyrene foam). Clear plastic drinking cups are made of polystyrene. So are a lot of the molded parts on the inside of your car, like the radio knobs. Polystyrene is also used in toys, and the housings of things like hairdryers, computers, and kitchen appliances.<<< So can we assume that you used Styrofoam? I am sure that blue board was available nine years ago. I built a refrigerator box for my boat out of 4' Styrofoam four years ago. It still looks OK the last time I inspected it. How long before it starts to crumble into a shitty mess? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > I used polystyrene sheets when I insulated my 30' plastic. I would suggest that one avoid this as I found out that the sheets deteriorate very quickly into millions of little clumps of sh*t. Spray-on foam is a better way to go. There are other, more suitable, sheets of insulating material which can be used but the insulating that I did was 9 years ago and I don't remember what was available. Ferenc Mate, in his book, "The Finely Fitted Yacht", talked about the good & the bad. Maybe, there is someone in the group whom has the book & would be willing to summarize Mate's discourse on this subject. > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4899|1509|2004-07-31 02:55:47|Mike|Re: Insulation|I'm sorry, Gerald. Thanks for the correction. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" wrote: > Mike > I found this definition of the product you used: > >>>Polystyrene is an inexpensive and hard plastic, and probably only > polyethyleneis more common in your everyday life. The outside housing > of the computer you are using now is probably made of polystyrene. > Model cars and airplanes are made from polystyrene, and it also is > made in the form of foam packaging and insulation (StyrofoamTM is one > brand of polystyrene foam). Clear plastic drinking cups are made of > polystyrene. So are a lot of the molded parts on the inside of your > car, like the radio knobs. Polystyrene is also used in toys, and the > housings of things like hairdryers, computers, and kitchen appliances.<<< > So can we assume that you used Styrofoam? I am sure that blue board > was available nine years ago. I built a refrigerator box for my boat > out of 4' Styrofoam four years ago. It still looks OK the last time I > inspected it. How long before it starts to crumble into a shitty mess? > Gerald | 4900|4900|2004-07-31 06:39:55|pascalibook|what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' Plan|Hi All , I need some help or directions . The messages I send keep coming back : I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. For further assistance, please send mail to If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the message returned below. The Postfix program : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] said: 553 5.3.0 ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply to RCPT TO command) Van: Pascale Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 Aan: Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " Dear Sir , I have been over your interesting web-site and found the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , with or without a pilothouse. Could you give me directions how to see the presentation or general plan What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? Thanks in advance . Pascale| 4901|1509|2004-07-31 06:55:31|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|Mike I wasn't trying to correct what you had written. I was just trying to find out what foam board you used so that none of us would make the same mistake that you experienced. There was, or still is, a type of board that was very light and had a black coating on one side. Didn't look like it would hold up long in light. The foam board that you used and failed was white bead type Styrofoam? Thanks Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote: > I'm sorry, Gerald. Thanks for the correction. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Niffenegger" > wrote: > > Mike > > I found this definition of the product you used: > > >>>Polystyrene is an inexpensive and hard plastic, and probably > only > > polyethyleneis more common in your everyday life. The outside > housing > > of the computer you are using now is probably made of polystyrene. > > Model cars and airplanes are made from polystyrene, and it also is > > made in the form of foam packaging and insulation (StyrofoamTM is > one > > brand of polystyrene foam). Clear plastic drinking cups are made > of > > polystyrene. So are a lot of the molded parts on the inside of your > > car, like the radio knobs. Polystyrene is also used in toys, and > the > > housings of things like hairdryers, computers, and kitchen > appliances.<<< > > So can we assume that you used Styrofoam? I am sure that blue board > > was available nine years ago. I built a refrigerator box for my > boat > > out of 4' Styrofoam four years ago. It still looks OK the last > time I > > inspected it. How long before it starts to crumble into a shitty > mess? > > Gerald | 4902|1509|2004-07-31 16:42:32|fmichael graham|Re: Insulation|Gerald: That's pretty much correct. There was an additive to the standard styrofoam that was supposed to keep those little blue balls (these sheets were blue, not white) together. I remember the marina where I kept my boat had to replace their floatation every three to five years. Still, it was the cheaper of alternatives for them. It is o.k. to correct me, or any other member, Gerald, as I would not want to "mis-speak" and have another member follow my words down a slippery slope. Thanks, Mike P.S. Are Brazillian girls as friendly as they are beautiful? Maybe, I should build there, instead! LOL (My apologies to those whom do not wish me to bring up an unrelated topic - but, I've just "got to" know!) Gerald Niffenegger wrote: Mike I wasn't trying to correct what you had written... To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4903|4878|2004-07-31 19:47:53|sail2carib|Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation|---Hi Metalfrends! Interesting subject. I have a 40' steel yacht in Norway. The insulation i 2" foame mat. But to my question; What is the best to use for insulate under cabin sole? Cold and noice? The floor is approx 3/4" Plywood and teak. Harry. In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt Coy wrote: > Hi all, I've been thinking alot about the insulating thing. I'm > personally not a big fan of sprayed in foam because of a chemical > sensitivity problem. A couple of things I found from looking at > different insulation systems- the white expanded polystyrene (foam) is > NOT waterproof. The extruded polyfoam (usually a blueboard or pink > board) is waterproof and high resistance to crushing too-but definitely > degrades with UV so don't store it outside, also I think its really > hard to get it to stick to a curved shape, the approved for foam glue > in a tube that I experimented with created a wet bond that never dried, > when I seperated a couple of pieces I'd glued it was still wet and > seemed somewhat degraded at the bond after 11 months; also to fill all > the gaps on a curved shape would be difficult at least. I believe that > the expanding foam in a can is also not waterproof. I'm looking at the > foil faced bubble wrap as a possible option, Although it claims to be > R12 I think thats its effective R value based on radiant reflection > properties... Home Depot sells it in big rolls, I think its about > $0.50 per square foot (us). In the plumbing area they have this cool > metal ducting tape, its foil and much easier to remove than regular > duck tape with the cloth backing, that's what I'd use to install it. > If anyone has used the bubble insulation on their metal boat I hope you > post about how its working. Btw, this site has been so pleasant to read > lately, vacations are good! Nicole > > On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:36 PM, ben_azo wrote: > > Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum > reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers > some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some > with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the > blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment > its ofthen used as emergency blankett . > How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape > How do you attach it to the hull? > Two systems : > - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , >    one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) > -with adhesive that holds on both sides >    ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) >    I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens >    main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, >    or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look > 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern > making included . > The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and > personaly I would take nothing else , the system works > best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace > between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood > cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just > for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. > Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions > on metal and plastic boats. > Worth looking into?? Just wondering > Ben_azo > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ >   > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >   > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4904|4900|2004-08-01 17:55:26|brentswain38|Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' Plan|Pascale The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . It's a simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft with the single keeler. Perhaps It's time I got Alex to scan in the sailplans of all my boats on this website.The specs are all given in the back of my book. If you have any other questions you can email me at brentswain38@... Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" wrote: > Hi All , I need some help or directions . > The messages I send keep coming back : > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > > For further assistance, please send mail to > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > delete your own text from the message returned below. > > The Postfix program > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > said: 553 5.3.0 > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > to RCPT TO > command) > > Van: Pascale > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > Aan: > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > Dear Sir , > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > with or without a pilothouse. > Could you give me directions how to see the > presentation or general plan > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > Thanks in advance . > Pascale | 4905|4881|2004-08-01 18:01:17|brentswain38|Re: I'm off|Gerd I saw your hull on the metal boat society site. It looks great. You want to be careful with the heat when you put longitudinal stringers in as too much heat will aneal the plate and you'll end up with a chine at each stringer. Keep the welds on the stringers cool and use small rods. Putting the stringers in while the plate is flat on the ground eliminates this problem. With the extreme conic curves in the ends you may not need much in the way of stringers there. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gerd" wrote: > Guys, since I met you a couple of months ago I sure have had a great > time, what with designing the boat and discussing anti-capsize > leadweights in the mast and submarine skegs and other fascinating > topics, not to forget having ruined my lawn with scrap iron, > building the hull and all that other stuff in addition to my dayly > bred and butter occupation. > > But enough is enough. I am packing. > > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > We are currently on vacation and will reply on our return. > We are currently on vacation.... ;-) > > see you middle of next month, until then I will try not think of > you, sitting on the beach on an island in Croatia, belly in the sun > and feet in the water. > > Gerd > The YAGO project, http://www.justmueller.com/boats/ | 4906|1509|2004-08-01 18:06:16|brentswain38|Re: Insulation|Friends tried to use styrofoam on a 33 footer. They found it a tremendous amount of work and they ended up spraying the last bit anyway. They said that the styrofoam wasn't any cheaper materials wise and was much more expensive labour wise.I tried sheet foam on my first boat for a few years and no matter how hard I tried to get a good vapour barrier over it, the steel was permanently soaking wet with condensation behind it. The ceramic bead paint may solve this problem to some extent, but you'll be money and a lot of time ahead if you simply have it sprayfoamed. Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > Rather than trowelling it on, I wonder if there would be sufficient > mixing action to initiate the two component foam into a reaction by > brushing one of the components on the painted hull and the other > component on a foam panel? If the chemical reaction started with > this method, it could be used to stick a cheaper foam (ie styrofoam) > to the hull with DIY PU, to increase the thermal factor. I'm not > saying that styrofoam would be the best choice, but even PU panels > would be cheaper to buy than to spray foam to achieve, say 2" of > closed cell insulation. > > jim_both > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > Colin, > > > > polyurethane (PU) foams are primarily of two different kinds: One > > component and two component. The one-comp. types are dependent on > > water or humidity to produce the CO2 gas that creates the foaming > > action. With two-comp. this is not the case, they will foam anyway > > after a given time (also temperature dependent). Typical foam > factor > > (volume increase) can be 20-30 times original volume, but that is > > when foaming unrestricted. Also be aware that if you fill some sort > > of enclosed void, the foam can generate substantial pressure if you > > inject too much material and/or the opening allowing overflow is > too > > small. > > The material will stick to anything as you found out and I don't > > think any such product can be throwelled to prepare a targeted > > surface. On the other hand, it is easy to cut and shape after it > has > > foamed up and hardened, especially if the foam is rigid. Most foams > > will be rigid, but there are also elastic types. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > wrote: > > > Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on insulation, but > I've > > > just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from a high street > shed > > to > > > fill the box seats on me dink. > > > Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on the can claimed > > that > > > the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can volume". And > > > also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial volume". Confused ? > > Me > > > too. > > > The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to *anything and > everything* - > > > no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up looking like a > > > candyfloss stick. > > > Had hoped to use this stuff (along with polystyrene sheets), to > > foam > > > the boat - but no chance of doing it with this particular brand. > > > > > > Worst thing was - spraying water onto the surface to be foamed is > > > compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick layer applied - > the > > > water is required for curing. Is this true for all can foams ? > > > > > > Colin | 4907|4887|2004-08-01 18:09:36|brentswain38|Re: For Sale?|There is a 36 footer called "Babera Allan " for sale in Genoa Bay, BC It doesn't have a wheelhouse , but that can be cured.It's plain Jane and well kept. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "p8r2004" wrote: > Hi All, > Does anyone keep track of Swain boats/hulls for sale? > I found one in San Carlos Mexico but that's all. | 4908|4878|2004-08-01 18:13:58|brentswain38|Re: Cheap High-Tech Insulation|Insulate the underside of your floor. That way the insulation won't soak up bilgewater.Disposable carpet on top in the winter also helps a lot. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sail2carib" wrote: > ---Hi Metalfrends! Interesting subject. I have a 40' steel yacht in > Norway. The insulation i 2" foame mat. But to my question; What is > the best to use for insulate under cabin sole? Cold and noice? The > floor is approx 3/4" Plywood and teak. > Harry. In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Suzanne Pentz and John Wyatt > Coy wrote: > > Hi all, I've been thinking alot about the insulating thing. I'm > > personally not a big fan of sprayed in foam because of a chemical > > sensitivity problem. A couple of things I found from looking at > > different insulation systems- the white expanded polystyrene > (foam) is > > NOT waterproof. The extruded polyfoam (usually a blueboard or pink > > board) is waterproof and high resistance to crushing too-but > definitely > > degrades with UV so don't store it outside, also I think its really > > hard to get it to stick to a curved shape, the approved for foam > glue > > in a tube that I experimented with created a wet bond that never > dried, > > when I seperated a couple of pieces I'd glued it was still wet and > > seemed somewhat degraded at the bond after 11 months; also to fill > all > > the gaps on a curved shape would be difficult at least. I believe > that > > the expanding foam in a can is also not waterproof. I'm looking at > the > > foil faced bubble wrap as a possible option, Although it claims to > be > > R12 I think thats its effective R value based on radiant reflection > > properties... Home Depot sells it in big rolls, I think its about > > $0.50 per square foot (us). In the plumbing area they have this > cool > > metal ducting tape, its foil and much easier to remove than regular > > duck tape with the cloth backing, that's what I'd use to install > it. > > If anyone has used the bubble insulation on their metal boat I hope > you > > post about how its working. Btw, this site has been so pleasant to > read > > lately, vacations are good! Nicole > > > > On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:36 PM, ben_azo wrote: > > > > Sold in every camping outlet you can find aluminum > > reflective multilayerd folios , 3 , 4 even 5 or more layers > > some with buble-plastic , with tiny airchambers , some > > with foam layers , some with a nice finish when the > > blankett , cause thats what it realy is , ask your firedeparment > > its ofthen used as emergency blankett . > > How do you finish the sides ? Ducktape > > How do you attach it to the hull? > > Two systems : > > - with a 3M adhesive ( you can spray it , > >    one disadvantage - kind a hard to remove ) > > -with adhesive that holds on both sides > >    ( same to fix tiles in a bathroom ) > >    I use it to insulate wardrobes , never any condens > >    main advantage ( fast and easy to replace when damaged, > >    or just to give your visible finish a new color or new look > > 2 people can insulate a 32ft boat in a day , paper pattern > > making included . > > The idea is to reflect heat or cold in both directions and > > personaly I would take nothing else , the system works > > best applyed directly to the hull and with an airspace > > between it and an eventual innerfinish in removable wood > > cause its great you always can go behind the finish :just > > for inspection , to install electric wiring or wathever. > > Used and tested on the North and South Artic conditions > > on metal and plastic boats. > > Worth looking into?? Just wondering > > Ben_azo > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to:   origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > • To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > >   > > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >   > > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4909|1509|2004-08-01 18:16:29|Courtney Thomas|Re: Insulation|Spray it with what, please ? Polystyrene, urethane, other ? Thank you. brentswain38 wrote: > Friends tried to use styrofoam on a 33 footer. They found it a > tremendous amount of work and they ended up spraying the last bit > anyway. They said that the styrofoam wasn't any cheaper materials > wise and was much more expensive labour wise.I tried sheet foam on my > first boat for a few years and no matter how hard I tried to get a > good vapour barrier over it, the steel was permanently soaking wet > with condensation behind it. > The ceramic bead paint may solve this problem to some extent, but > you'll be money and a lot of time ahead if you simply have it > sprayfoamed. > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jim_both" wrote: > >>Rather than trowelling it on, I wonder if there would be sufficient >>mixing action to initiate the two component foam into a reaction by >>brushing one of the components on the painted hull and the other >>component on a foam panel? If the chemical reaction started with >>this method, it could be used to stick a cheaper foam (ie >> > styrofoam) > >>to the hull with DIY PU, to increase the thermal factor. I'm not >>saying that styrofoam would be the best choice, but even PU panels >>would be cheaper to buy than to spray foam to achieve, say 2" of >>closed cell insulation. >> >>jim_both >> >>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: >> >>>Colin, >>> >>>polyurethane (PU) foams are primarily of two different kinds: One >>>component and two component. The one-comp. types are dependent on >>>water or humidity to produce the CO2 gas that creates the foaming >>>action. With two-comp. this is not the case, they will foam >>> > anyway > >>>after a given time (also temperature dependent). Typical foam >>> >>factor >> >>>(volume increase) can be 20-30 times original volume, but that is >>>when foaming unrestricted. Also be aware that if you fill some >>> > sort > >>>of enclosed void, the foam can generate substantial pressure if >>> > you > >>>inject too much material and/or the opening allowing overflow is >>> >>too >> >>>small. >>>The material will stick to anything as you found out and I don't >>>think any such product can be throwelled to prepare a targeted >>>surface. On the other hand, it is easy to cut and shape after it >>> >>has >> >>>foamed up and hardened, especially if the foam is rigid. Most >>> > foams > >>>will be rigid, but there are also elastic types. >>> >>> >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" >>>wrote: >>> >>>>Don't know if it's relevant to this thread on insulation, but >>>> >>I've >> >>>>just used a can of Polycell Expanding Foam from a high street >>>> >>shed >> >>>to >>> >>>>fill the box seats on me dink. >>>>Contained diphenylmethane-diisocynate. Words on the can claimed >>>> >>>that >>> >>>>the stuff would expand "up to 60 times the can volume". And >>>>also: "will expand to 2.5 times the initial volume". >>>> > Confused ? > >>>Me >>> >>>>too. >>>>The stuff was a bitch to use, sticks to *anything and >>>> >>everything* - >> >>>>no chance of trowelling flat, trowel ended up looking like a >>>>candyfloss stick. >>>>Had hoped to use this stuff (along with polystyrene sheets), to >>>> >>>foam >>> >>>>the boat - but no chance of doing it with this particular brand. >>>> >>>>Worst thing was - spraying water onto the surface to be foamed >>>> > is > >>>>compulsory (!), and again with every inch thick layer applied - >>>> >>the >> >>>>water is required for curing. Is this true for all can foams ? >>>> >>>>Colin >>>> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4910|4892|2004-08-01 18:20:01|brentswain38|Re: Materials list|I oversaw the building of a 40 footer once. What frames? I once built a 36 footer right next to another 36 that a friend was building. We both had identical steel orders . They went and grabbed a full sheet anytime they needed a piece. We made the best use of materials by carefully planning each cut. They ran out of steel before they were done. We didn't.I explained to thenm exactly where each piece came from, within the original steel order. Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > I often wonder if Brent has actually built a 40' hull.... kuz the materials list > would have been modified by now if he did. > @ pieces of 40X8' 3/16 steel and one piece of 12X8' 3/16 that should be > 22X8' 3/16 aand the stringers???? should be installed before the frames. > > > with such obvious little differences I'm kinda worried about the outcome of my > project , I really can't affrord to have tooo many mistakes. Feces > > How goes your projects? John | 4911|4742|2004-08-01 18:25:12|T.H. & V.D. Cain|Re: annealing copper fabrications.|Ted, Good stuff on the aluminium. To anneal copper tubing, it should be heated to a "cherry" red and then quickly quenched in water. Terry -----Original Message----- From: edward_stoneuk [mailto:tedstone@...] Sent: Saturday, 31 July 2004 5:30 To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminum question When I was a lad my father had an old car with an aluminium body. The front mudguards /fenders used to crack above the wheel due to work hardening. My father welded them up with oxy acetylene which softened the aluminium considerably. To soften work hardened areas to beat out dents he would gently heat up the area with the gas torch until oil that he had squirted on from an oil can burnt black. That was the correct temperature to anneal the aluminium. Copper tube acts in a similar way. Bending it work hardens it and then it can be softened or annealed by heating. I would need to know a lot more than I know now about the correct design for an aluminium boat to avoid work hardening and cracking in use before I built one. Regards, Ted To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4912|4912|2004-08-01 20:12:50|Gerald Niffenegger|Great week!|The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep the group updated as I use it. They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' 1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! Gerald| 4913|4912|2004-08-02 01:10:58|Graeme|Re: Great week!|Gerald Did you tell the new owner that it leaked lol! The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep the group updated as I use it. They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' 1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links| 4914|4912|2004-08-02 05:19:12|Courtney Thomas|Re: Great week!|Sounds like you got a great deal ! What all did you get for $137 ? Cordially, Courtney Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it > functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ > plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep > the group updated as I use it. > They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy > them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' > 1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! > Gerald > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4915|4912|2004-08-02 06:52:08|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Great week!|Yep, told the guy the port holes leaked and the bilge pump runs several times a day but he bought it anyway. hee hee Got a 1953 type Y Metco gun, 11 oxy. act. tips, 8 air nozzle heads, 3 sets of wire pull wheels, charts, instructions and lots of new O-ring, shafts and gaskets. Also lathe tools because the factory was using it with a lathe and threw the tools in the box not knowing they were not for the gun. I also bought another gun, more modern wire gun, for $100 but I haven't received it yet. There is currently a Metco wire gun for sale, on ebay, but it is around $650. Noticed that there were no bids yet. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Sounds like you got a great deal ! > > What all did you get for $137 ? > > Cordially, > > Courtney > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it > > functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ > > plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep > > the group updated as I use it. > > They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy > > them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' > > 1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! > > Gerald > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4916|4916|2004-08-02 08:18:09|Phil S.|Do It yourself Spray Insulation|Hey Gang in looking around for an easier cheaper way to apply insulation i found this... http://www.fomofoam.com/boat_ship_and_pontoon.htm Looks like really cool stuff. A $651(USD) kit covers 605sqft. I believe to a depth of 1" (R7) All I need do is figure out how many cubic feet a BS 47' takes and Bingo, I spray it in myself, that way I ensure I hit every corner, nook and crannie. I think Brent (or some one) said they paid a contractor a couple of grand for the Spray foaming of a boat. This sounds like it would come out cheaper and you could do it yourself and not shirk the job. Regards Phil| 4917|4912|2004-08-02 08:34:22|Courtney Thomas|Re: Great week!|What equipment other than the Metco gun is required to metal spray ? Also, what do the gun types mean, e.g. P, N, Y, etc.... ? Appreciatively, Courtney Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > Yep, told the guy the port holes leaked and the bilge pump runs > several times a day but he bought it anyway. hee hee > Got a 1953 type Y Metco gun, 11 oxy. act. tips, 8 air nozzle heads, 3 > sets of wire pull wheels, charts, instructions and lots of new O-ring, > shafts and gaskets. Also lathe tools because the factory was using it > with a lathe and threw the tools in the box not knowing they were not > for the gun. > I also bought another gun, more modern wire gun, for $100 but I > haven't received it yet. There is currently a Metco wire gun for sale, > on ebay, but it is around $650. Noticed that there were no bids yet. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > >>Sounds like you got a great deal ! >> >>What all did you get for $137 ? >> >>Cordially, >> >>Courtney >> >> >>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: >> >> >>>The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it >>>functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ >>>plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep >>>the group updated as I use it. >>>They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy >>>them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' >>>1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! >>>Gerald >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>s/v Mutiny >>Rhodes Bounty II >>lying Oriental, NC >>WDB5619 >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4918|4912|2004-08-02 11:58:30|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Great week!|Oxy. act. tanks, regulators, flow gauges, air compressor capable of around 50 cfm, and some way to hold the spool of wire. So far as I know using powder hopper type guns for the type work we will be doing is out of the question. My Y type gun is real real old. The wire guns I am familiar with, after the Y, are 1-14E. Metco started with E series some 40 years ago and they are now up to 14E. Let me assure you that I know darn little about this subject and what I have stated above are bits and pieces that I have picked up. The wire is pulled thru the gun with an air driven motor. The wire runs thru a oxy/act. nozzle that looks like a cutting torch nozzle. Instead of oxy. being discharged thru the center hole of the nozzle for cutting, the wire exits thru that hole. The metal wire is turned to liquid by the flame. Compressed air is injected and turns the liquid metal to a vapor, which is shot onto the parent metal. Kind of works like that and experts can correct my shortfalls. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > What equipment other than the Metco gun is required to metal spray ? > > Also, what do the gun types mean, e.g. P, N, Y, etc.... ? > > Appreciatively, > > Courtney > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > Yep, told the guy the port holes leaked and the bilge pump runs > > several times a day but he bought it anyway. hee hee > > Got a 1953 type Y Metco gun, 11 oxy. act. tips, 8 air nozzle heads, 3 > > sets of wire pull wheels, charts, instructions and lots of new O-ring, > > shafts and gaskets. Also lathe tools because the factory was using it > > with a lathe and threw the tools in the box not knowing they were not > > for the gun. > > I also bought another gun, more modern wire gun, for $100 but I > > haven't received it yet. There is currently a Metco wire gun for sale, > > on ebay, but it is around $650. Noticed that there were no bids yet. > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > > >>Sounds like you got a great deal ! > >> > >>What all did you get for $137 ? > >> > >>Cordially, > >> > >>Courtney > >> > >> > >>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > >> > >> > >>>The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it > >>>functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ > >>>plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep > >>>the group updated as I use it. > >>>They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy > >>>them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' > >>>1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! > >>>Gerald > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>s/v Mutiny > >>Rhodes Bounty II > >>lying Oriental, NC > >>WDB5619 > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4919|4912|2004-08-02 13:09:12|Courtney Thomas|Re: Great week!|Is the air driven motor that pulls the wire through the gun, part of the gun, or is this another piece of equipment that is also required ? Courtney Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > Oxy. act. tanks, regulators, flow gauges, air compressor capable of > around 50 cfm, and some way to hold the spool of wire. > So far as I know using powder hopper type guns for the type work we > will be doing is out of the question. My Y type gun is real real old. > The wire guns I am familiar with, after the Y, are 1-14E. Metco > started with E series some 40 years ago and they are now up to 14E. > Let me assure you that I know darn little about this subject and what > I have stated above are bits and pieces that I have picked up. > The wire is pulled thru the gun with an air driven motor. The wire > runs thru a oxy/act. nozzle that looks like a cutting torch nozzle. > Instead of oxy. being discharged thru the center hole of the nozzle > for cutting, the wire exits thru that hole. The metal wire is turned > to liquid by the flame. Compressed air is injected and turns the > liquid metal to a vapor, which is shot onto the parent metal. Kind of > works like that and experts can correct my shortfalls. > Gerald > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > wrote: > >>What equipment other than the Metco gun is required to metal spray ? >> >>Also, what do the gun types mean, e.g. P, N, Y, etc.... ? >> >>Appreciatively, >> >>Courtney >> >>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: >> >> >>>Yep, told the guy the port holes leaked and the bilge pump runs >>>several times a day but he bought it anyway. hee hee >>>Got a 1953 type Y Metco gun, 11 oxy. act. tips, 8 air nozzle heads, 3 >>>sets of wire pull wheels, charts, instructions and lots of new O-ring, >>>shafts and gaskets. Also lathe tools because the factory was using it >>>with a lathe and threw the tools in the box not knowing they were not >>>for the gun. >>>I also bought another gun, more modern wire gun, for $100 but I >>>haven't received it yet. There is currently a Metco wire gun for sale, >>>on ebay, but it is around $650. Noticed that there were no bids yet. >>>Gerald >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Sounds like you got a great deal ! >>>> >>>>What all did you get for $137 ? >>>> >>>>Cordially, >>>> >>>>Courtney >>>> >>>> >>>>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it >>>>>functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ >>>>>plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep >>>>>the group updated as I use it. >>>>>They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy >>>>>them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' >>>>>1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! >>>>>Gerald >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>>>> >>>>> >>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com >>> >>> >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>-- >>>>s/v Mutiny >>>>Rhodes Bounty II >>>>lying Oriental, NC >>>>WDB5619 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: >>> > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>-- >>s/v Mutiny >>Rhodes Bounty II >>lying Oriental, NC >>WDB5619 >> > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > -- s/v Mutiny Rhodes Bounty II lying Oriental, NC WDB5619| 4920|4912|2004-08-02 17:23:25|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Great week!|The air driven motor is part of the gun and has a round control knob on the side of the gun that controls the speed of the motor. There is also a valve that shuts off the air to the motor and jointly controls the amount of air that propels the molten metal. The air turns a turbine that turns the wheels that in turn pull the wire. When the motor turns it sounds like a jet air plane. My old Y type gun must weigh in the neighborhood of 4 kilos. It has many brass parts. The newer guns are aluminum or look to be aluminum and are much lighter. Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas wrote: > Is the air driven motor that pulls the wire through the gun, part of the > gun, or is this another piece of equipment that is also required ? > > Courtney > > > > Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > > > Oxy. act. tanks, regulators, flow gauges, air compressor capable of > > around 50 cfm, and some way to hold the spool of wire. > > So far as I know using powder hopper type guns for the type work we > > will be doing is out of the question. My Y type gun is real real old. > > The wire guns I am familiar with, after the Y, are 1-14E. Metco > > started with E series some 40 years ago and they are now up to 14E. > > Let me assure you that I know darn little about this subject and what > > I have stated above are bits and pieces that I have picked up. > > The wire is pulled thru the gun with an air driven motor. The wire > > runs thru a oxy/act. nozzle that looks like a cutting torch nozzle. > > Instead of oxy. being discharged thru the center hole of the nozzle > > for cutting, the wire exits thru that hole. The metal wire is turned > > to liquid by the flame. Compressed air is injected and turns the > > liquid metal to a vapor, which is shot onto the parent metal. Kind of > > works like that and experts can correct my shortfalls. > > Gerald > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > > wrote: > > > >>What equipment other than the Metco gun is required to metal spray ? > >> > >>Also, what do the gun types mean, e.g. P, N, Y, etc.... ? > >> > >>Appreciatively, > >> > >>Courtney > >> > >>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Yep, told the guy the port holes leaked and the bilge pump runs > >>>several times a day but he bought it anyway. hee hee > >>>Got a 1953 type Y Metco gun, 11 oxy. act. tips, 8 air nozzle heads, 3 > >>>sets of wire pull wheels, charts, instructions and lots of new O-ring, > >>>shafts and gaskets. Also lathe tools because the factory was using it > >>>with a lathe and threw the tools in the box not knowing they were not > >>>for the gun. > >>>I also bought another gun, more modern wire gun, for $100 but I > >>>haven't received it yet. There is currently a Metco wire gun for sale, > >>>on ebay, but it is around $650. Noticed that there were no bids yet. > >>>Gerald > >>>--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Courtney Thomas > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Sounds like you got a great deal ! > >>>> > >>>>What all did you get for $137 ? > >>>> > >>>>Cordially, > >>>> > >>>>Courtney > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>Gerald Niffenegger wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>The antique metal spray gun I bought on ebay arrived this week and it > >>>>>functions perfectly! 15,000US$ new or this one from ebay for 137US$ > >>>>>plus $88 shipping, with spare parts ....... I chose cheap! Will keep > >>>>>the group updated as I use it. > >>>>>They say the two happiest days of boat ownership are the days you buy > >>>>>them and the days you sell them. True true true! I just sold my 32' > >>>>>1967 Campos wooden yawl. I'm happy as a clam! The leaken bastard! > >>>>>Gerald > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >>> > >>> > >>>>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>-- > >>>>s/v Mutiny > >>>>Rhodes Bounty II > >>>>lying Oriental, NC > >>>>WDB5619 > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > >>>To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > >>> > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>Yahoo! Groups Links > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>-- > >>s/v Mutiny > >>Rhodes Bounty II > >>lying Oriental, NC > >>WDB5619 > >> > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > s/v Mutiny > Rhodes Bounty II > lying Oriental, NC > WDB5619 | 4921|732|2004-08-02 19:48:50|Robert|Lead|I am having trouble finding lead for the keel ballast. I live in central Florida. My steel supplier (who can get me everything else) says that he can't get lead. He says the EPA or environmentalists have made it near impossible to get. I have access to an old steel boat which has a lead keel - but it is a lot of work and expense to get it out - for many reasons. Any help in finding lead (other than collecting it from tire balancers) would be appreciated. Thanks, Robert Meade Leesburg FL| 4922|732|2004-08-02 20:48:49|RON COOK|Re: Lead|Robert how much lead do you need? I have a freind that has 20,000 pounds here in Tampa Florida. how much per pound were you hoping to pay? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert" To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 7:48 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Lead > I am having trouble finding lead for the keel ballast. I live in > central Florida. My steel supplier (who can get me everything else) > says that he can't get lead. He says the EPA or environmentalists > have made it near impossible to get. > > I have access to an old steel boat which has a lead keel - but it is > a lot of work and expense to get it out - for many reasons. > > Any help in finding lead (other than collecting it from tire > balancers) would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Robert Meade > Leesburg FL > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > | 4923|1509|2004-08-03 00:34:47|John Cupp|Re: Insulation|Here is something that most have never thought of but t does work. I insulated a house that I built with it and from lab test; it was an R- value of about 25 when placed into concrete blocks. I am talking about Pumice, Volcanic rock that during cooling leaves spaces in it much like Styrofoam but it seals up great with Portland cement. In case the boat needs ballast, you could coat the inside of the hull with a mixture of Portland cement and pumice in a mixture of four parts of pumice to one part of cement. You could put wall ties on the inside of the hull with a layer of wire tied to it then place the cement and pumice over that and it smoothes very well. Some navies use this same method to make armor but they also add another extra layer of AR plate over the cement mixture. It can stop bullets and up to 40 mm cannon fire from other fast patrol boats. I worked at a Pumice mine in Northern California that has this lightweight aggregate in sizes up to ¾". It is lightweight and with the Portland cement, it stays waterproof. It also stops condensation so the steel will not oxidize through. I remember seeing the report about the armor and seeing the R-value as an added bonus. I built a house near the mine and used block construction on the lower floor with wood on the top floor. The house was one of the best-insulated houses I have ever built. The lightweight was very nice when filling the rebar-enforced bonds in the block. Ferro-Cement construction is still a very valid form of boat building but to insulate with Pumice and cement is I think a very valid way to do things. I had a building sprayed with foam and the nearest company to where I will build the boat charged a ten-hour transport fee for coming and going even though it is only a three-hour trip one- way. The work they did was excellent but the price nearly tripled with their transport charge. You can buy bags of the pumice in any size granules. It also floats. I have pumice boulders that look like they weigh tons that I could pick up before my back surgery. They also float, so there is my idea for high tech insulation inside a steel hull. It is easy to shape and smooth so you can apply paint over it or firs strip it out and cover with wood. A couple of inches would equal at least R-14 and as an added bonus you would have extra protection from bullets or cannon fire, just kidding but you never know. So laugh or cry but it is a low cost good almost light weight substitute for foam. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > > I used polystyrene sheets when I insulated my 30' plastic. I would suggest that one avoid this as I found out that the sheets deteriorate very quickly into millions of little clumps of sh*t. Spray-on foam is a better way to go. There are other, more suitable, sheets of insulating material which can be used but the insulating that I did was 9 years ago and I don't remember what was available. Ferenc Mate, in his book, "The Finely Fitted Yacht", talked about the good & the bad. Maybe, there is someone in the group whom has the book & would be willing to summarize Mate's discourse on this subject. > > Regards, > > Mike > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4924|732|2004-08-03 02:15:16|Jim Phillips|tranquil forum|This forum has become very quiet lately - dare I use the word "boring"? It must be about time that Greg returned and stirred the pot with Brent a little. Cheers and beers, Jim. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4925|732|2004-08-03 02:15:20|Jim Phillips|tranquil forum|This forum has become very quiet lately - dare I use the word "boring"? It must be about time that Greg returned and stirred the pot with Brent a little. Cheers and beers, Jim. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4926|1007|2004-08-03 03:09:21|Russyl|36 footer for sale|Any idea the asking price on that 36 footer or how to get ahold of the owner?| 4927|1509|2004-08-03 07:33:19|sae140|Re: Insulation|> This forum has become very quiet lately - dare I use the word "boring"? Tranquil, peaceful even ? Bummer about the expanded polystyrene - I've got a few cubic metres of this stuff mostly in moulded bats 23" x 11" x 1.5" As it was free (my kinda price), I was hoping to use it with an external vapour barrier (such as aluminium foil, or tar paper), gluing it on using a couple of drums of shower tile adhesive I also picked up cheap .... Had intended to trowel foam (Ha Ha ) into the remaining crevices ... but, as I say, a bummer. A word of caution about using volcanic rock - I've also got about 10 cubic metres of this stuff (don't ask ...) in the form of Perlite - a white expanded volcanic rock. An excellent insulator, and very light indeed when it's dry (it's often used for lining chimney flues etc., and making insulating building blocks) - but it soaks up water like a sponge - indeed, it's used as a growing medium in intensive horticulture to actually hold water because of this characteristic. If I could use this stuff somehow I certainly would. Dunno if this is basically the same as the pumice referred to though ... ? If it looks like using this might be feasible, I guess I could always make a test perlite/cement block and submerge it underwater for a week ... any negative thoughts on this idea, before I get mixing ? Colin| 4928|1509|2004-08-03 12:49:04|John Cupp|Re: Insulation|The ability for pumice to retain water is known but what I advocate is the use of it with the Portland cement to seal off the ability to absorb the water. A hull that is made on land should be able to cure out the water then be sprayed with an additional layer of water sealer commonly used under the name of "Thompson's® Water Seal®." It can be found under other names at a considerable discount. I myself would use two or three liberal coats of this sealer. I have also sprayed epoxy two part paint over the top of the water sealer and it did not stop the paint from adhering to the cement mixture. I would however make sure that I would leave holes for the passage of bilge water to flow to the sump. Even if you only used this insulation below the natural waterline for ballast then employed foam under your deck it would help in cold water areas. It has been proven that the cement mixture does expand and contract at the same rate of steel. This makes the mixture a good choice. I also buy surplus government epoxy paint. You can get powdered copper from most epoxy venders that can be mixed into this surplus paint for use as a bottom paint that works very, very well. The paint I get costs me about five dollars a gallon as surplus. Buying surplus paint is problematic because you need to buy large lots at a time. I have seen Perlite® and it does have different properties than the pumice rock I am advising on. Even if you used an epoxy matrix to encapsulate the pumice it would still work as insulation, rather expensive insulation but insulation none the less. I was manager of the repair shop at the pumice quarry and that gave me some time to play with the rock in different experiments. The only problem that I found with using this Pumice as insulation is that if you exposed it to temperatures over 1200 degrees Fahrenheit it would expand like Popcorn. That negates the use of such a slurry around the exhaust pipe if you have a Motorsailer unless you wrap asbestos around the pipe first. I have made a water heater from using the exhaust pipe heat that works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe with a mixture of copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp resistant cement. I went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 pounds of aluminum chips from machining . I put all of this inside a stainless tube about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch id copper tube wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe with the cement and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated to release all of the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper tubing into a insulated 20 gallon holding tank. What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower without running out of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water but it sure beat the six gallon water heater that was already on the boat. Sorry I got off track but I thought I should pass on this heater since most of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat without using this source of heat energy. To modify an already existing boat is much harder than installing this as a fixture when building the boat new. John Cupp > Bummer about the expanded polystyrene - I've got a few cubic metres > of this stuff mostly in moulded bats 23" x 11" x 1.5" As it was free > (my kinda price), I was hoping to use it with an external vapour > barrier (such as aluminium foil, or tar paper), gluing it on using a > couple of drums of shower tile adhesive I also picked up cheap .... > Had intended to trowel foam (Ha Ha ) into the remaining crevices ... > but, as I say, a bummer. > > A word of caution about using volcanic rock - I've also got about 10 > cubic metres of this stuff (don't ask ...) in the form of Perlite - a > white expanded volcanic rock. An excellent insulator, and very light > indeed when it's dry (it's often used for lining chimney flues etc., > and making insulating building blocks) - but it soaks up water like a > sponge - indeed, it's used as a growing medium in intensive > horticulture to actually hold water because of this characteristic. > If I could use this stuff somehow I certainly would. Dunno if this > is basically the same as the pumice referred to though ... ? > > If it looks like using this might be feasible, I guess I could always > make a test perlite/cement block and submerge it underwater for a > week ... any negative thoughts on this idea, before I get mixing ? > > Colin | 4929|1007|2004-08-03 14:45:36|brentswain38|Re: 36 footer for sale|The email address on the boat is alanmac@... Brent Swain --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Russyl" wrote: > Any idea the asking price on that 36 footer or how to get ahold of > the owner? | 4930|1509|2004-08-03 16:28:44|John|Re: Insulation|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > > This forum has become very quiet lately - dare I use the > word "boring"? > > Tranquil, peaceful even ? > > > Bummer about the expanded polystyrene - I've got a few cubic metres > of this stuff mostly in moulded bats 23" x 11" x 1.5" As it was free > (my kinda price), I was hoping to use it with an external vapour > barrier (such as aluminium foil, or tar paper), gluing it on using a > couple of drums of shower tile adhesive I also picked up cheap .... > Had intended to trowel foam (Ha Ha ) into the remaining crevices ... > but, as I say, a bummer. > > A word of caution about using volcanic rock - I've also got about 10 > cubic metres of this stuff (don't ask ...) in the form of Perlite - a > white expanded volcanic rock. An excellent insulator, and very light > indeed when it's dry (it's often used for lining chimney flues etc., > and making insulating building blocks) - but it soaks up water like a > sponge - indeed, it's used as a growing medium in intensive > horticulture to actually hold water because of this characteristic. > If I could use this stuff somehow I certainly would. Dunno if this > is basically the same as the pumice referred to though ... ? > > If it looks like using this might be feasible, I guess I could always > make a test perlite/cement block and submerge it underwater for a > week ... any negative thoughts on this idea, before I get mixing ? > > Colin | 4931|4931|2004-08-04 00:44:40|John Waalkes|36' for sale|Hello all, it was one of Brents 31'ers for sale on E-bay that got me hooked, after buying Brents book and much thought, a 36' would better fit my wishes. I currently own a 31' Norwegian built lapstrake, which takes much more maint than I have time to give therby the gains are few but I continue on, dreaming of the strengths ect. of steel. How can one contact owners of Babera Allan. Time is passing and I am not getting younger its time to cut some corners and modifiying a existing plain Jane could get me off the dime and finding a willing new caretaker for my wooden boat is not difficult as long as the price is low. Or maybe it would be better to just strip her to outfit the new one. Hate to even think of that as everthing I have done was done for the long haul and its close to being ready. but the more I do the more there seem to need doing. Anyway contact #s or any other way to find the owners?? Thanks John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4932|1509|2004-08-04 06:48:01|sae140|Re: Insulation|John - there's some excellent stuff there in your post. I've also re-visited MBS, where there are some really interesting threads re: insulation - seems that this issue hasn't been fully cracked yet, and that there are several schools of thought. It has been claimed that even professionally applied foam can absorb water if immersed, and seemingly never dries out afterwards. Can also be plagued with voids. Others advocate removable insulation, being useful for inspection and for any subsequent repairs/ additions to the skin. What came across to me strongly from these threads was that there are 2 underlying rationales for insulation: one is to provide an anti- condensation measure which requires only a relatively thin coating, the other being more targeted at keeping yer fingers and toes warm, requiring several inches of 'stuff' between us humans and the steel. With anti-condensation in mind, apparently BS is experimenting with glass micro-balloons in epoxy paint - sounds interesting - and someone else suggested using ground-up cork granules also mixed-in with paint. At this point I'll freely confess to not spotting the obvious - using ground-up Perlite mixed with paint !! Didn't see it before. Then, if this prevents condensation ok, use a couple of inches of rockwool (or whatever) on top to bestow some creature comfort. To my mind, the idea of using one of these anti-condensation coatings, with some removable rockwool fibreglass bats (or similar) for comfort, sounds like a reasonable alternative to blown foam. On the condensation issue, I note that most people are targeting their fixes at avoiding cold surfaces, rather than increasing air circulation. Worth reminding ourselves that the human body gives off several pints of moisture per day, and this moisture needs to go somewhere .... If ventilation must be kept to a minimum to conserve heat, my thought would be to actually *provide* a cold surface, and actively encourage condensation, rather than fight it. A Vee-shaped sheet of metal suspended point-down from the cabin roof will drip moisture into a can. Guess a radar reflector would do it, or a fold- up steaming cone (anybody got one of these on board ? A Colregs requirement - but I've yet to see a yacht carrying or using one). Yesterday I made up a couple of small slabs of 4:1 Perlite/ Cement - will keep you posted on results. I'm something of a doubting-Thomas, and really need to see how good this is for myself. I'll test one 'as is', and try various paints on the other. John, thanks for this idea. It occurred to me also that this stuff might be a useful insulator in and around the bilges. Tom Colvin is an advocate of using either straight cement in the bilges, or bitumous cement ... took me ages to figure out what "bitumous cement" was. Over here (UK), we call that stuff 'asphalt' (pronounced ash-felt) - it's waterproof, and clings to steel like a good 'un. Unfortunately it softens into a messy goo with a drop of diesel or petrol. Re: the exhaust (good ideas there) I believe Perlite is already heat-expanded (?) so could be used around exhausts (?) - although I'd want to test some first. I've used it myself as an insulator between a s/s woodburner liner and a brick chimney cavity (very weak cement mix - dropped in from above), with no complaints ... but then I've never had cause to open up such an install and check the consequences. Colin| 4933|732|2004-08-04 07:29:28|johnkupris@aol.com|Re: Lead|Police shooting ranges must be cleaned up, including wadding and copper cladding but with a good air filter mask it can be done. 5 gallon pails of debris are very heavy and yield enough lead to make the work worth the effort. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4934|4934|2004-08-04 08:53:41|Scott Carle|Water Heater|John, I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any possibility of a diagram? Scott Carle > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > pipe heat that > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > with a mixture of > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > resistant cement. I > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > pounds of aluminum > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > stainless tube > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > id copper tube > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > with the cement > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > to release all of > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > tubing into a > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > without running out > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > but it sure beat > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > boat. Sorry I > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > heater since most > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > without using > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > existing boat is > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > building the boat > new. > > > John Cupp > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail| 4935|4935|2004-08-04 13:00:45|De Clarke|pumice and other porous light rock|> From: "sae140" > Subject: Re: Insulation > > A word of caution about using volcanic rock - I've also got about 10 > cubic metres of this stuff (don't ask ...) in the form of Perlite - a > white expanded volcanic rock. An excellent insulator, and very light > indeed when it's dry (it's often used for lining chimney flues etc., > and making insulating building blocks) - but it soaks up water like a > sponge - indeed, it's used as a growing medium in intensive > horticulture to actually hold water because of this characteristic. > If I could use this stuff somehow I certainly would. Dunno if this > is basically the same as the pumice referred to though ... ? > ummm... stupid newbie here, possibly barking up wrong tree entirely, but couldn't you package it in plastic sheeting (thermosealed, like those batts of plastic-wrapped soft foam they use in packaging fragile freight) to keep water out? it would then double as (a small amt of) floatation... de| 4936|4931|2004-08-04 17:46:41|brentswain38|Re: 36' for sale|For Barbersa Allan try alanmac@... Brent --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Waalkes" wrote: > Hello all, it was one of Brents 31'ers for sale on E-bay that got me hooked, after buying Brents book and much thought, a 36' would better fit my wishes. I currently own a 31' Norwegian built lapstrake, which takes much more maint than I have time to give therby the gains are few but I continue on, dreaming of the strengths ect. of steel. How can one contact owners of Babera Allan. Time is passing and I am not getting younger its time to cut some corners and modifiying a existing plain Jane could get me off the dime and finding a willing new caretaker for my wooden boat is not difficult as long as the price is low. Or maybe it would be better to just strip her to outfit the new one. Hate to even think of that as everthing I have done was done for the long haul and its close to being ready. but the more I do the more there seem to need doing. Anyway contact #s or any other way to find the owners?? Thanks John > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4937|1509|2004-08-04 18:50:37|Hall,Clarrie|Re: Insulation|John Cupp You said > The only problem that I found with using this Pumice as insulation > is that if you exposed it to temperatures over 1200 degrees Fahrenheit > it would expand like Popcorn. Coool. I would like to see that. Is it still Pumice afterwards or does it have a new name? Expanded it should be less dense and a better insulator. Does it still hold together after expanding or does it crumble. 1200f, that's only 650 celcius, I could do that with LPG, I must try that. Clarrie Hall ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua District Council. ------------------------------------------------------------------------| 4938|1509|2004-08-04 19:49:38|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|OK I'll bite. What the heck is the "Rotorua District Council"? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Hall,Clarrie" wrote: > John Cupp > > You said > > > The only problem that I found with using this Pumice as insulation > > is that if you exposed it to temperatures over 1200 degrees Fahrenheit > > it would expand like Popcorn. > > > Coool. I would like to see that. > > Is it still Pumice afterwards or does it have a new name? > Expanded it should be less dense and a better insulator. > Does it still hold together after expanding or does it crumble. > 1200f, that's only 650 celcius, I could do that with LPG, I must try > that. > > Clarrie Hall > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information > intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not > the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, > dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; > If you have received this message in error please notify the sender > immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and > attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the > individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua > District Council. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | 4939|1509|2004-08-04 20:02:01|Hall,Clarrie|Re: Insulation|Sorry about the disclaimer, perhaps I shouldn't send to lists from work. Rotorua District Council is the local government for Rotorua and the surrounding district in the central part of the north island of New Zealand. www.rdc.govt.nz is the council website if you are interested. One of the reasons that I am interested in pumice is that it is readily avalable around Rotorua. Clarrie Hall -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Niffenegger [mailto:niffeneggerniff@...] Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2004 11:49 a.m. To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation OK I'll bite. What the heck is the "Rotorua District Council"? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Hall,Clarrie" wrote: > John Cupp > > You said > > > The only problem that I found with using this Pumice as insulation > > is that if you exposed it to temperatures over 1200 degrees Fahrenheit > > it would expand like Popcorn. > > > Coool. I would like to see that. > > Is it still Pumice afterwards or does it have a new name? Expanded it > should be less dense and a better insulator. Does it still hold > together after expanding or does it crumble. 1200f, that's only 650 > celcius, I could do that with LPG, I must try that. > > Clarrie Hall > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information > intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not > the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, > dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; > If you have received this message in error please notify the sender > immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and > attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the > individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua > District Council. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua District Council. ------------------------------------------------------------------------| 4940|1509|2004-08-04 21:33:36|Michael Casling|Re: Insulation|Gerald I do not recall reading that bit but I can tell you that Rotorua is a city in the central North Island of New Zealand. It is also referred to as sulphur city. There is a lot of geo thermal activity in the area and Roturua has boiling mud pools. Nearby is a geo thermal powered electric power plant. The ground shakes and rumbles, it is awsome. I think they use a lot of insulation on the pipes but I do not know waht it is. I know a boat designer who has lived in the area that I could ask. The district council would be called the regional district, the county council or some such thing in other areas. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 4:49 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation OK I'll bite. What the heck is the "Rotorua District Council"? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Hall,Clarrie" wrote: > John Cupp > > You said > > > The only problem that I found with using this Pumice as insulation > > is that if you exposed it to temperatures over 1200 degrees Fahrenheit > > it would expand like Popcorn. > > > Coool. I would like to see that. > > Is it still Pumice afterwards or does it have a new name? > Expanded it should be less dense and a better insulator. > Does it still hold together after expanding or does it crumble. > 1200f, that's only 650 celcius, I could do that with LPG, I must try > that. > > Clarrie Hall > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > CAUTION - This message may contain privileged and confidential information > intended only for the use of the addressee(s) named above. If you are not > the intended recipient of this message you are notified that any use, > dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this message is prohibited; > If you have received this message in error please notify the sender > immediately via return email and erase all copies of this message and > attachments. Any views expressed in this message are those of the > individual sender and may not necessarily reflect the views of Rotorua > District Council. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4941|4822|2004-08-06 02:43:23|ge@easysoftwareinc.com|Re: auto responders|Sorry all, I responded/fixed this two weeks ago, but my mail didn't get through. For some reason my update to Yahoo didn't take effect. If you look back in the postings you will notice I have been having problems with email for some time. I update my yahoo account, and nothing happens. In this case I was out in the boonies and was not aware of the problem. I've done some modeling of skeg/keel attachment stress that may prove interesting. The actual numbers are not an indication of safety factor, rather each example is loaded identically, so by comparing you can see what the advantages/problems are with each method. http://www.origamimagic.com/Design/Attachments/Attachments.htm Greg Elliott Origami Magic http://www.origamimagic.com 1.604.987.0050 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: [origamiboats] auto responders > Hi all, > > You'll be relieved to know I've been able to toggle Greg's message > setting so the site won't get more messages via the auto responder. > Keep in mind that he would not have done it on purpose, so forgive > and forget. > > I've been without computer connection since November, so cannot check > on the group's health as much as I'd like. Like Brent, I have to go > down to the library when time allows and have only a short time at > the terminal. Almost all my resources are now directed at the boat, > hopefully resulting in a launch and moving aboard next spring. > Thankfully we seem to rarely suffer glitches and spam as much as some > groups do, and survive largely self-moderated. > > As long as we keep religion and strong (fightin') words out of the > dialogue it should be smooth sailing! > > Alex > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > | 4942|4942|2004-08-06 04:26:51|Alex|Moderator's 36'|Hey all, Just thought I'd surface here and update on my boat's progress, as well as the filming. Brent arrived back from sea and the weather moderated, so we got the solid lifelines installed today (see group's cover photo), including bow pulpit. One solid loop from bow right around to the stern, and "solid" pretty much describes it. Very nice to walk around on those decks now, having the security of the solid handrail to count on. It is amazingly stiff and is going to be great for keeping people on the boat, instead of in the water! Lots of film footage gathered today, and I am deep into the digital editing process, hopefully forging a useful product for anyone building these boats. Brent has been great at prompting, "you should get this on tape," getting me to film what one could call "tricks of the trade" gained only by building many hulls of this type. Some of the tricks are so subtle that I wouldn't have noticed unless he had pointed them out, but one can then see that it makes a big difference in either the immediate application or another connected process further down the road. Brent also explains why certain things are done, things which one would only choose to do because of experiences at sea (eg, the use of solid lifelines, as well as placing them at the right height for increased safety). I'm quite excited about getting this film out to home builders, because there is tons of good stuff in it. All that said, I hope to have this film out in about one month or realistically two. It will be "Vol.1", which is the construction of a bare hull from delivered flat plate to complete bare shell, with most exterior stainless steel detailing, installation of the keels, skeg, and rudder. Originally I thought I'd include in the film all footage right to launching of the boat, but I've already got nearly 5 hours of footage, and It'll be a challenge compressing all that good stuff down into 2 hours! It won't be highly polished, it won't win any festival awards, but it'll have a wealth of information that should be of high interest to the dedicated origami boatbuilder. If you are interested in buying a completed DVD, let me know at achristie@..., and I can start getting an idea of how many copies I'll need to make initially. I haven't worked out a price yet, but I'll work this out once I've completed the work. Regards, Alex Christie| 4943|4942|2004-08-06 08:45:46|jp4sail|Re: Moderator's 36'|Any ideas about the price? JPaes --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Hey all, > > Just thought I'd surface here and update on my boat's progress, as > well as the filming. Brent arrived back from sea and the weather > moderated, so we got the solid lifelines installed today (see group's > cover photo), including bow pulpit. One solid loop from bow right > around to the stern, and "solid" pretty much describes it. Very nice > to walk around on those decks now, having the security of the solid > handrail to count on. It is amazingly stiff and is going to be great > for keeping people on the boat, instead of in the water! > > Lots of film footage gathered today, and I am deep into the digital > editing process, hopefully forging a useful product for anyone > building these boats. Brent has been great at prompting, "you should > get this on tape," getting me to film what one could call "tricks of > the trade" gained only by building many hulls of this type. Some of > the tricks are so subtle that I wouldn't have noticed unless he had > pointed them out, but one can then see that it makes a big difference > in either the immediate application or another connected process > further down the road. Brent also explains why certain things are > done, things which one would only choose to do because of experiences > at sea (eg, the use of solid lifelines, as well as placing them at > the right height for increased safety). I'm quite excited about > getting this film out to home builders, because there is tons of good > stuff in it. > > All that said, I hope to have this film out in about one month or > realistically two. It will be "Vol.1", which is the construction of a > bare hull from delivered flat plate to complete bare shell, with most > exterior stainless steel detailing, installation of the keels, skeg, > and rudder. Originally I thought I'd include in the film all footage > right to launching of the boat, but I've already got nearly 5 hours > of footage, and It'll be a challenge compressing all that good stuff > down into 2 hours! It won't be highly polished, it won't win any > festival awards, but it'll have a wealth of information that should > be of high interest to the dedicated origami boatbuilder. > > If you are interested in buying a completed DVD, let me know at > achristie@s..., and I can start getting an idea of how many copies > I'll need to make initially. I haven't worked out a price yet, but > I'll work this out once I've completed the work. > > Regards, > > Alex Christie | 4944|4944|2004-08-06 10:24:13|ben_azo|The £ 200 Millionaire by Weston Martyr|http://tinyurl.com/3t59q a fine shortstory for sailors| 4945|4944|2004-08-06 15:36:28|raykimbro@yahoo.com|Re: The £ 200 Millionaire by Weston Martyr|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/3t59q > a fine shortstory for sailors Say man, what do you mean sharing a story like that? Are you trying to entice us all to quit our grinds and make for the water? :-) Thanks - I've needed some distracting thoughts such as those that a yarn like this provokes. Thanks very much, indeed. Ray Kimbro| 4946|1509|2004-08-06 18:58:04|Henri Naths|Re: Insulation|P.S. Are Brazillian girls as friendly as they are beautiful? Maybe, I should build there, instead! LOL (My apologies to those whom do not wish me to bring up an unrelated topic - but, I've just "got to" know!) (I think keeping the curves fair is a related topic lol) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4947|1509|2004-08-06 20:44:15|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: Insulation|OK OK the second time I have been ask so will give a lesson in some of the differences here in the South part of Brasil and other parts of the world that I am familiar with. Mind you ..... Brazil is a country almost as large as the United States. Not nearly as large as Canada but big just the same. To state that Brazilians are this that or the other would be painting with a damn wide brush so I can only relate to the areas that I am more familiar with and that would be the state of Sao Paulo and the few states south of there. I was born and raised in Kalona, Iowa a small Amish town south of Iowa City. I never once saw my Father hug my Mother but there was a great deal of love in our family. It was Midwest to the 10th degree! Of my six brothers and sisters I was the only one that chose to take up arms and actually shoot at a so called enemy during the Johnson administration. Bad choice on my part but seemed like a good idea at the time! I hired into Caterpillar tractor attachment plant as a weldor and after 30 years retired as a Department Manager. I have been retired for more than 10 years and currently live in Florianopolis Brasil with my Brazilian wife. Now that you know more about me than you probably wanted to know I will fill you in on a few things about the parts of Brasil that I am familiar with. Most of the people that I have met here are up front more friendly and more trusting than many of the people I have met in the USA or Canada. I just did a test with a couple of people and when we were talking our noses were exactly 14" apart. Take a tape measure out and check the distance when you talk with people you know and then estimate the distance with people you don't know. A Brazilian woman married or not will probably touch your arm several times during a conversation and will be smiling most of the time, it is culture, she is not making an advance! Brazilians that have traveled more will know about customs in other parts of the world and will adjust accordingly. I live in a rural area on the North part of Florianopolis Island. If I meet a woman on the street she will for sure look at the ground until she passes and she might say good morning if I speak first. However, forget all that if she is older than I am. She might then speak first and give me a big smile and a comment about the weather. A single Brazilian just returned from Scotland and proclaimed that he had never met more warm blooded women in his life than he met there. What is the point of all this? It all depends upon where you are standing! Now ...... to answer the question. You could make an entire Brazilian bathing suit out of a dollar bill and a meter of sting. The gals filling the suits look great in them! Brazilians for the most part like people from North America ........ can't say that about all parts of the world. It is not hard to find someone that can speak a little bit of english. A dollar buys 3-5 times more than in the states. Figure the rest out for your self.:) Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > P.S. Are Brazillian girls as friendly as they are beautiful? Maybe, I should build there, instead! LOL > (My apologies to those whom do not wish me to bring up an unrelated topic - but, I've just "got to" know!) > > (I think keeping the curves fair is a related topic lol) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4948|1509|2004-08-06 22:39:51|Henri Naths|Re: Insulation|thanks Gerald, that was great, On an other related topic, is there web contact for the vw (tdi) diesel engine and do they only make engines or can you get like a automatic transmission? Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 06 August, 2004 6:44 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Insulation OK OK the second time I have been ask so will give a lesson in some of the differences here in the South part of Brasil and other parts of the world that I am familiar with. Mind you ..... Brazil is a country almost as large as the United States. Not nearly as large as Canada but big just the same. To state that Brazilians are this that or the other would be painting with a damn wide brush so I can only relate to the areas that I am more familiar with and that would be the state of Sao Paulo and the few states south of there. I was born and raised in Kalona, Iowa a small Amish town south of Iowa City. I never once saw my Father hug my Mother but there was a great deal of love in our family. It was Midwest to the 10th degree! Of my six brothers and sisters I was the only one that chose to take up arms and actually shoot at a so called enemy during the Johnson administration. Bad choice on my part but seemed like a good idea at the time! I hired into Caterpillar tractor attachment plant as a weldor and after 30 years retired as a Department Manager. I have been retired for more than 10 years and currently live in Florianopolis Brasil with my Brazilian wife. Now that you know more about me than you probably wanted to know I will fill you in on a few things about the parts of Brasil that I am familiar with. Most of the people that I have met here are up front more friendly and more trusting than many of the people I have met in the USA or Canada. I just did a test with a couple of people and when we were talking our noses were exactly 14" apart. Take a tape measure out and check the distance when you talk with people you know and then estimate the distance with people you don't know. A Brazilian woman married or not will probably touch your arm several times during a conversation and will be smiling most of the time, it is culture, she is not making an advance! Brazilians that have traveled more will know about customs in other parts of the world and will adjust accordingly. I live in a rural area on the North part of Florianopolis Island. If I meet a woman on the street she will for sure look at the ground until she passes and she might say good morning if I speak first. However, forget all that if she is older than I am. She might then speak first and give me a big smile and a comment about the weather. A single Brazilian just returned from Scotland and proclaimed that he had never met more warm blooded women in his life than he met there. What is the point of all this? It all depends upon where you are standing! Now ...... to answer the question. You could make an entire Brazilian bathing suit out of a dollar bill and a meter of sting. The gals filling the suits look great in them! Brazilians for the most part like people from North America ........ can't say that about all parts of the world. It is not hard to find someone that can speak a little bit of english. A dollar buys 3-5 times more than in the states. Figure the rest out for your self.:) Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > P.S. Are Brazillian girls as friendly as they are beautiful? Maybe, I should build there, instead! LOL > (My apologies to those whom do not wish me to bring up an unrelated topic - but, I've just "got to" know!) > > (I think keeping the curves fair is a related topic lol) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4949|4900|2004-08-07 01:20:31|pascalibook|Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' Plan|Thanks for the answer. Please give the directions to order your book. Whats the name of the book? How and where to order it ? How much do it costs ? Is there a website link you can give me? Thanks in advance Pascal --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "brentswain38" wrote: > Pascale > The 26 footer uses the same mainsail as a 26 ft soling . It's a > simple sloop rig . Draft for the twin keeler is 3 ft , 4 ft with the > single keeler. Perhaps It's time I got Alex to scan in the sailplans > of all my boats on this website.The specs are all given in the back > of my book. If you have any other questions you can email me at > brentswain38@y... > Brent Swain > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "pascalibook" > wrote: > > Hi All , I need some help or directions . > > The messages I send keep coming back : > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned > > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations. > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > delete your own text from the message returned below. > > > > The Postfix program > > : host mail.worldsite.ws[216.35.187.251] > > said: 553 5.3.0 > > ... 553-AD1 Invalid host name (in reply > > to RCPT TO > > command) > > > > Van: Pascale > > Datum: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:30:18 +0200 > > Aan: > > Onderwerp: 26' x 8 1/2 " > > > > Dear Sir , > > I have been over your interesting web-site and found > > the pricing for a 26' in steel or aluminum , > > with or without a pilothouse. > > Could you give me directions how to see the > > presentation or general plan > > What's the draft ? Kimkeeler ? Sailplan ? > > Thanks in advance . > > Pascale | 4950|22|2004-08-07 01:27:58|origamiboats@yahoogroups.com|New file uploaded to origamiboats |Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Dieselengines conversions/MercedesDieselmarineconv1.jpg Uploaded by : ben_azo Description : You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Dieselengines%20conversions/MercedesDieselmarineconv1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, ben_azo | 4951|4951|2004-08-07 01:33:17|ben_azo|Car Diesel Marine Conversions|the new adress for an old Dutch parts-center: DRINKWAARD MOTOREN BV 152 Baanhoek 3361GN SLIEDRECHT Nederland tel/fax : 00 31 184 412332 partslistexample in the Files| 4952|4944|2004-08-07 06:21:22|sae140|Re: The £ 200 Millionaire by Weston Martyr|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/3t59q > a fine shortstory for sailors "The £200 Millionaire" is a truly excellent story from a bygone age. But just in case anyone is stimulated into emulating our good doctor's lifestyle, it might be worth pointing out that the value of £200 has changed somewhat since the 1930's. At that time for 200 quid you could have bought a couple of 3-story houses in the industrial midlands which you could market today for well over £100,000 each - giving a 1932 to 2004 price multiplier in excess of x1000. However, as UK property prices are notoriously over-inflated, let's say a x50 multiplier is generally more reasonable. Even so, our £200 becomes £10,000 ($US 15,000 ?) and the capital to produce this leaps from £4000 to a cool £200,000 .... that's something like $(US)300,000. Unfortunately that's the financial reality of Weston Farmer's story today - added to which there are the licensing requirements and the charges for using European canals, neither of which existed in the 1930's. There's a lot more summer traffic too. Isn't reality a bummer ? But it's still a good story .... Colin| 4953|4953|2004-08-07 10:54:59|knutfg|Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD (in which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making it more accessible.| 4954|4953|2004-08-07 11:20:41|pascalibook|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|Where did you found anything about the book ? , I did a websearch and there is a lot of talk about the book to be found , but no directions or am I using the wrong search engines ? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD (in > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making it > more accessible. | 4955|4953|2004-08-07 11:42:31|sae140|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file entitled: "A- CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the file. All will be revealed. Colin --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD (in > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making it > more accessible. | 4956|4956|2004-08-07 12:44:19|Gerald Niffenegger|VW marine|Plug VW marine into Google. Here is a site and you can click on "more details" for a great picture of the 1.9 1Y. http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_marine_picture The prices are a bit higher than I paid. The engine is manufactured not far from where I live. However, it is for export only. It is my understanding that it is used in a GOL in Canada but not sold in the USA? Might be sold in Mexico? I paid less than 2,000 US$ for a new motor still in the crate. It did not have a starter or alternator and I had to change the flywheel to allow the starter to mount on the front of a cut off bellhousing. A side note about cutting the bellhousing ......... I cut it with a cut off wheel. I assumed it was aluminum. Not so and when magnesium catches on fire it will burn off your eyebrows and arm hair! Don't know about the automatic transmission. Automatics are scarce as hens teeth in this country so they are real hard to come by. Gerald| 4957|4956|2004-08-07 15:14:49|Henri Naths|Re: VW marine|Yeah I remember burning magnesium strips in sciene class in high school, pretty hot stuff ! Thanks for the link. An update on my project ; I got hundreds of brand new 45 gallon drums, just for the taking. The insulation thread was / is great , I want to weld two sets of 10 drums together and cover them with 1 inch of insulation, shave it fair and fiberglass choper gun the whole thing, origami a bow and sugar scoop transom...vw diesel power, later.... right now, it's called the The Poor Man's Yacht. p.s. wat do welders get paid in Brazil?.... (Alberta 30-45.00 $ by hand (Hand- just personal tools)) Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: [origamiboats] VW marine Plug VW marine into Google. Here is a site and you can click on "more details" for a great picture of the 1.9 1Y. http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_marine_picture The prices are a bit higher than I paid. The engine is manufactured not far from where I live. However, it is for export only. It is my understanding that it is used in a GOL in Canada but not sold in the USA? Might be sold in Mexico? I paid less than 2,000 US$ for a new motor still in the crate. It did not have a starter or alternator and I had to change the flywheel to allow the starter to mount on the front of a cut off bellhousing. A side note about cutting the bellhousing ......... I cut it with a cut off wheel. I assumed it was aluminum. Not so and when magnesium catches on fire it will burn off your eyebrows and arm hair! Don't know about the automatic transmission. Automatics are scarce as hens teeth in this country so they are real hard to come by. Gerald To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4958|732|2004-08-07 15:48:10|coyfamily|Re: tranquil forum|Yep, its been great lately, ah, quiet; as compared to a bunch of "Noise". I like it. alot. Positive attitudes and honest, (and polite) sharing of ideas, methods and techniques make this forum great, it's like... boatbuilding? Nicole ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Phillips To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 12:15 AM Subject: [origamiboats] tranquil forum This forum has become very quiet lately - dare I use the word "boring"? It must be about time that Greg returned and stirred the pot with Brent a little. Cheers and beers, Jim. --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4959|4900|2004-08-07 17:35:29|Brent Geery|Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' Plan|On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 05:20:24 -0000, "pascalibook" wrote: > Thanks for the answer. > Please give the directions to order your book. > Whats the name of the book? > How and where to order it ? > How much do it costs ? > Is there a website link you can give me? > Thanks in advance > Pascal Compiled from the archived messages: #Plans for the 26' are $200, for the 31' $300, for the 36' $350 #and for the 40' $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book. # #Plans include the basic shell (hull, deck, rudder, skeg, keel), mast, #rigging, sails, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, deck layout, interior #layouts, detail drawings (hatches, self steering, bow roller, rudder #fittings, chainplates, mooring bitts, cleats, handrails, ballast, #exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc.) # #A copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a #Heretic's Guide" (illus., 100 pages, paperback) is US$20 plus $3 for #postage. # #The book has drawings for the roller furling, anchor winch, self #steering, engine mounts, running pole fittings, jibsheet leads, #dinghy, chine doubler plates, sheerlegs, mast support, tabernacle, #bow roller, head, etc. # #To order plans/books, send payment in US funds (except Canadain #orders) to: #Brent Swain #3798 Laurel Drive, #Royston, British Columbia, #Canada #V0R-2V0 Now I'll give you my own info. Despite what the above info says, the plans for the 26' I received did not contain all the info that I thought it would. It consists of 5 sheets: Lines, Deck Layout and Hull Plate and Keel Placement, Sail Plan, Mast and Rigging, Rigging Details. It does not include (as I thought they would) any details for the skeg, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, interior layouts, self steering, rudder and fittings, chainplates, handrails, ballast, exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc. I'm not dissing the plans, just letting you know what to expect from them. They were less detailed than I had hoped, given the descriptions of what was supposedly included. Much of this missing info is included in Brent's book. Other bits can be gleaned from the archived messages here. Personally, I'd still like to see some sample interior designs, as I'm probably going to get hung up trying to come up with a workable layout from scratch. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4960|4953|2004-08-07 17:35:34|Brent Geery|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:54:41 -0000, "knutfg" wrote: > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD (in > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. CAN$ in Canada. US$ everywhere else. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4961|4956|2004-08-07 18:03:22|Gerald Niffenegger|Re: VW marine|What do weldors get paid in Brazil? You need to divide your numbers by 30 if you are talking about US$. I just finished an extension to my shop and added a room 21'X45' with a 16' ceiling. I am told by the neighbors that I screwed up when I gave the brick layer a 33 cent per hour raise. Guess he is now spoiled and will want to make $1.33 from everyone instead of his normal 1 US$ per hour. You might not want to make any big career changes, for here, if your job includes getting your hands dirty. : ) I don't understand why you will add the foam to the outside of the barrels? Is it so you can change the hull shape? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Yeah I remember burning magnesium strips in sciene class in high school, pretty hot stuff ! Thanks for the link. > An update on my project ; I got hundreds of brand new 45 gallon drums, just for the taking. The insulation thread was / is great , I want to weld two sets of 10 drums together and cover them with 1 inch of insulation, shave it fair and fiberglass choper gun the whole thing, origami a bow and sugar scoop transom...vw diesel power, later.... right now, it's called the The Poor Man's Yacht. > p.s. wat do welders get paid in Brazil?.... (Alberta 30-45.00 $ by hand (Hand- just personal tools)) > Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:42 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] VW marine > > > Plug VW marine into Google. Here is a site and you can click on "more > details" for a great picture of the 1.9 1Y. > http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_marine_picture > The prices are a bit higher than I paid. The engine is manufactured > not far from where I live. However, it is for export only. It is my > understanding that it is used in a GOL in Canada but not sold in the > USA? Might be sold in Mexico? I paid less than 2,000 US$ for a new > motor still in the crate. It did not have a starter or alternator and > I had to change the flywheel to allow the starter to mount on the > front of a cut off bellhousing. A side note about cutting the > bellhousing ......... I cut it with a cut off wheel. I assumed it was > aluminum. Not so and when magnesium catches on fire it will burn off > your eyebrows and arm hair! Don't know about the automatic > transmission. Automatics are scarce as hens teeth in this country so > they are real hard to come by. > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4962|4953|2004-08-07 19:52:43|Brent Geery|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 14:54:41 -0000, "knutfg" wrote: > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD (in > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. CAN$ in Canada. US$ everywhere else. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4963|4900|2004-08-07 19:52:43|Brent Geery|Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' Plan|On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 05:20:24 -0000, "pascalibook" wrote: > Thanks for the answer. > Please give the directions to order your book. > Whats the name of the book? > How and where to order it ? > How much do it costs ? > Is there a website link you can give me? > Thanks in advance > Pascal Compiled from the archived messages: #Plans for the 26' are $200, for the 31' $300, for the 36' $350 #and for the 40' $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book. # #Plans include the basic shell (hull, deck, rudder, skeg, keel), mast, #rigging, sails, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, deck layout, interior #layouts, detail drawings (hatches, self steering, bow roller, rudder #fittings, chainplates, mooring bitts, cleats, handrails, ballast, #exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc.) # #A copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a #Heretic's Guide" (illus., 100 pages, paperback) is US$20 plus $3 for #postage. # #The book has drawings for the roller furling, anchor winch, self #steering, engine mounts, running pole fittings, jibsheet leads, #dinghy, chine doubler plates, sheerlegs, mast support, tabernacle, #bow roller, head, etc. # #To order plans/books, send payment in US funds (except Canadain #orders) to: #Brent Swain #3798 Laurel Drive, #Royston, British Columbia, #Canada #V0R-2V0 Now I'll give you my own info. Despite what the above info says, the plans for the 26' I received did not contain all the info that I thought it would. It consists of 5 sheets: Lines, Deck Layout and Hull Plate and Keel Placement, Sail Plan, Mast and Rigging, Rigging Details. It does not include (as I thought they would) any details for the skeg, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, interior layouts, self steering, rudder and fittings, chainplates, handrails, ballast, exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc. I'm not dissing the plans, just letting you know what to expect from them. They were less detailed than I had hoped, given the descriptions of what was supposedly included. Much of this missing info is included in Brent's book. Other bits can be gleaned from the archived messages here. Personally, I'd still like to see some sample interior designs, as I'm probably going to get hung up trying to come up with a workable layout from scratch. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4964|4956|2004-08-07 20:22:30|Henri Naths|Re: VW marine|yes ...1, to get the sides perfectly smooth and tie into the bow and stern. I want to weld a keel on. It should be a 6 inch angle iron light gauge which will form part of the bow.2 To keep a cold storage area, beer, fish, live well etc etc...3 hot and cold water storage. Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: Gerald Niffenegger To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 August, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: VW marine What do weldors get paid in Brazil? You need to divide your numbers by 30 if you are talking about US$. I just finished an extension to my shop and added a room 21'X45' with a 16' ceiling. I am told by the neighbors that I screwed up when I gave the brick layer a 33 cent per hour raise. Guess he is now spoiled and will want to make $1.33 from everyone instead of his normal 1 US$ per hour. You might not want to make any big career changes, for here, if your job includes getting your hands dirty. : ) I don't understand why you will add the foam to the outside of the barrels? Is it so you can change the hull shape? Gerald --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Henri Naths" wrote: > Yeah I remember burning magnesium strips in sciene class in high school, pretty hot stuff ! Thanks for the link. > An update on my project ; I got hundreds of brand new 45 gallon drums, just for the taking. The insulation thread was / is great , I want to weld two sets of 10 drums together and cover them with 1 inch of insulation, shave it fair and fiberglass choper gun the whole thing, origami a bow and sugar scoop transom...vw diesel power, later.... right now, it's called the The Poor Man's Yacht. > p.s. wat do welders get paid in Brazil?.... (Alberta 30-45.00 $ by hand (Hand- just personal tools)) > Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gerald Niffenegger > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:42 AM > Subject: [origamiboats] VW marine > > > Plug VW marine into Google. Here is a site and you can click on "more > details" for a great picture of the 1.9 1Y. > http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/VW/VW_marine_picture > The prices are a bit higher than I paid. The engine is manufactured > not far from where I live. However, it is for export only. It is my > understanding that it is used in a GOL in Canada but not sold in the > USA? Might be sold in Mexico? I paid less than 2,000 US$ for a new > motor still in the crate. It did not have a starter or alternator and > I had to change the flywheel to allow the starter to mount on the > front of a cut off bellhousing. A side note about cutting the > bellhousing ......... I cut it with a cut off wheel. I assumed it was > aluminum. Not so and when magnesium catches on fire it will burn off > your eyebrows and arm hair! Don't know about the automatic > transmission. Automatics are scarce as hens teeth in this country so > they are real hard to come by. > Gerald > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4965|4900|2004-08-07 22:01:08|blueiceicle|Re: what went wrong , any advise or directions ? 26' Plan|Hi Brent Id appreciate it if you could share any info you gather on building the skeg and such, for the 26ft. I should have my plans here this week. If this is the case that some things need to be figured out... I too will be in the same boat trying to map these things out. I have Brent's book, and i think most of these missing items are in there. I believe the keel Wt. was 1800, but im not sure if thats including the weight of the keel it self? Anyways... Regards Jesse > Now I'll give you my own info. Despite what the above info says, the > plans for the 26' I received did not contain all the info that I > thought it would. It consists of 5 sheets: Lines, Deck Layout and > Hull Plate and Keel Placement, Sail Plan, Mast and Rigging, Rigging > Details. It does not include (as I thought they would) any details > for the skeg, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, interior layouts, self > steering, rudder and fittings, chainplates, handrails, ballast, > exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc. > > I'm not dissing the plans, just letting you know what to expect from > them. They were less detailed than I had hoped, given the > descriptions of what was supposedly included. Much of this missing > info is included in Brent's book. Other bits can be gleaned from the > archived messages here. Personally, I'd still like to see some sample > interior designs, as I'm probably going to get hung up trying to come > up with a workable layout from scratch. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4966|4934|2004-08-08 00:46:16|John Cupp|Re: Water Heater|Scott, It is very simple to Imagine a thirty inch or bigger stainless steel drum that has a four inch Stainless steel exhaust pipe through the center and on end open still. You then take a coil of large copper tubing and place it over the center pipe with both ends of the coil coming out of the open end. You then take the mixture of aluminum and cement and pour it in to the drum but not down the exhaust pipe so that it covers the coil around the pipe and fills the drum to the edge. You then vibrte the cement mxture so the air bubbles will exit the mixture. Now you place an end on the drum that has holes for the two ends of the copper tubing and a large hole for the exhaust pipe. You flow water through the pipe while the drum is hooked to the exhaust and it heats the water very fast. You are only confined by the size of the water heater by how long the exhaust has to be. If you wanted to you could make a heater that ran the length of the keel the exhaust would be cool when it came out of the end but the un-burnt hydrocarbons might eventually clog the inner tube from being cooled in such a long run. If you could have a chimney sweep type tool to clean the pipe periodicly you could use a radiator type system to heat the whole boat. With a holding tank you could run radiant heat tubing like they use in homes under the decks. This would do very well in a boat that cruises in colder climates. I am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. I have wished for just an once of cold water to run in my shower in boats I have sailed in down to South America. The cold water or supposed to be cold water was nearly 95 degrees most of the time and you could not use a swamp cooler because the humidity was always way to high to cool anything. I want to try to rig some peltier coolers to some cooper tubing with air blowing on the heat sinks to cool them. It will give needed cold water on trips in the tropics. First before all these ideas I need to build an 100 foot boat to haul all the things I designed for extended cruising. I want to have a large battery storage capacity with wind generator and photovoltaic cells. Add to that a generator drive system that can drive the boat or turn the prop to create electricity when sailing and it needs room. They have an electric toilet that works very well and turns everything into ashes. With the cost of pump outs gone you just need more power. I plan on having two spare water makers on hand just in case and each one can make twenty gallons an hour. In most South American ports that I might sail into you do not want to drink the local water. You don't want to make water in port either because sanitation along the shore is unheard of in most places. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote: > John, > I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing > your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any > possibility of a diagram? > Scott Carle > > > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > > pipe heat that > > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > > with a mixture of > > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > > resistant cement. I > > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > > pounds of aluminum > > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > > stainless tube > > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > > id copper tube > > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > > with the cement > > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > > to release all of > > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > > tubing into a > > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > > without running out > > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > > but it sure beat > > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > > boat. Sorry I > > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > > heater since most > > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > > without using > > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > > existing boat is > > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > > building the boat > > new. > > > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail | 4967|4739|2004-08-08 05:15:05|ben_azo|Re: To uncle Ben|Hi JP , sorry I kept you waiting but I found the info you requested about Orca , you will find pics , plans , tests in the Files I posted for you in : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ just have a peak and take what you want and need , no discussions over there please its just a repositary place for info . --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi ,sory I am on holiday sailing but I will forward you the info > as soon as back home , by the end of next week inch allah > Regards > ben_azo > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > > Dear uncle Ben > > > > Do you by any chance have the contacts with the designer os the > > French aluminum centerboarder? Do you know if the building plans > for > > that design are available for amateur construction? How about the > > Puck 7.7? > > Thanx > > JPaes | 4968|4739|2004-08-08 10:26:46|ben_azo|Re: To uncle Ben / building in frameless Aluminum|Orca and Rando are frameless build in thick aluminum see the building pics in Files over there. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Hi JP , sorry I kept you waiting but I found the info you > requested about Orca , you will find pics , plans , tests > in the Files I posted for you in : > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > just have a peak and take what you want and need , > no discussions over there please its just a repositary > place for info . > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > wrote: > > Hi ,sory I am on holiday sailing but I will forward you the info > > as soon as back home , by the end of next week inch allah > > Regards > > ben_azo > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" > wrote: > > > Dear uncle Ben > > > > > > Do you by any chance have the contacts with the designer os > the > > > French aluminum centerboarder? Do you know if the building > plans > > for > > > that design are available for amateur construction? How > about the > > > Puck 7.7? > > > Thanx > > > JPaes | 4969|4934|2004-08-08 12:28:28|Robert Gainer|Re: Water Heater|John said, I am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. John, When you are at anchor can you put a hose over the side and pump water up from 30 feet down and run it into a heat exchanger. All the best, Robert Gainer _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/| 4970|4970|2004-08-08 12:43:34|John Jones|Twin Keel Construction 40'|Care to share any more details on the 40's twin keel materials etc: The materials list starts off with "this much I do know" and then it runs off the page and becomes a little scetchy....Any help? John| 4971|4934|2004-08-08 14:49:50|Henri Naths|Re: Water Heater|why use cement and alu and such a huge drum. my idea is just a heat exchanger. A small propane hotwater heater will do. Have a diverter valve on your exhaust pipe run to the heater.A heater pipe already runs up the middle of the tank. That will exit out the top and you can run it out side. I would think any turbo diesel would not let unburnt hydrocarbon clog the system ----- Original Message ----- From: John Cupp To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater Scott, It is very simple to Imagine a thirty inch or bigger stainless steel drum that has a four inch Stainless steel exhaust pipe through the center and on end open still. You then take a coil of large copper tubing and place it over the center pipe with both ends of the coil coming out of the open end. You then take the mixture of aluminum and cement and pour it in to the drum but not down the exhaust pipe so that it covers the coil around the pipe and fills the drum to the edge. You then vibrte the cement mxture so the air bubbles will exit the mixture. Now you place an end on the drum that has holes for the two ends of the copper tubing and a large hole for the exhaust pipe. You flow water through the pipe while the drum is hooked to the exhaust and it heats the water very fast. You are only confined by the size of the water heater by how long the exhaust has to be. If you wanted to you could make a heater that ran the length of the keel the exhaust would be cool when it came out of the end but the un-burnt hydrocarbons might eventually clog the inner tube from being cooled in such a long run. If you could have a chimney sweep type tool to clean the pipe periodicly you could use a radiator type system to heat the whole boat. With a holding tank you could run radiant heat tubing like they use in homes under the decks. This would do very well in a boat that cruises in colder climates. I am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. I have wished for just an once of cold water to run in my shower in boats I have sailed in down to South America. The cold water or supposed to be cold water was nearly 95 degrees most of the time and you could not use a swamp cooler because the humidity was always way to high to cool anything. I want to try to rig some peltier coolers to some cooper tubing with air blowing on the heat sinks to cool them. It will give needed cold water on trips in the tropics. First before all these ideas I need to build an 100 foot boat to haul all the things I designed for extended cruising. I want to have a large battery storage capacity with wind generator and photovoltaic cells. Add to that a generator drive system that can drive the boat or turn the prop to create electricity when sailing and it needs room. They have an electric toilet that works very well and turns everything into ashes. With the cost of pump outs gone you just need more power. I plan on having two spare water makers on hand just in case and each one can make twenty gallons an hour. In most South American ports that I might sail into you do not want to drink the local water. You don't want to make water in port either because sanitation along the shore is unheard of in most places. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote: > John, > I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing > your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any > possibility of a diagram? > Scott Carle > > > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > > pipe heat that > > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > > with a mixture of > > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > > resistant cement. I > > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > > pounds of aluminum > > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > > stainless tube > > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > > id copper tube > > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > > with the cement > > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > > to release all of > > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > > tubing into a > > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > > without running out > > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > > but it sure beat > > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > > boat. Sorry I > > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > > heater since most > > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > > without using > > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > > existing boat is > > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > > building the boat > > new. > > > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4972|4934|2004-08-08 14:54:37|Henri Naths|Re: Water Heater|ps why could'nt a person run fresh water thru the cooling system for an additional source of hot water? Henri ----- Original Message ----- From: John Cupp To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:46 PM Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater Scott, It is very simple to Imagine a thirty inch or bigger stainless steel drum that has a four inch Stainless steel exhaust pipe through the center and on end open still. You then take a coil of large copper tubing and place it over the center pipe with both ends of the coil coming out of the open end. You then take the mixture of aluminum and cement and pour it in to the drum but not down the exhaust pipe so that it covers the coil around the pipe and fills the drum to the edge. You then vibrte the cement mxture so the air bubbles will exit the mixture. Now you place an end on the drum that has holes for the two ends of the copper tubing and a large hole for the exhaust pipe. You flow water through the pipe while the drum is hooked to the exhaust and it heats the water very fast. You are only confined by the size of the water heater by how long the exhaust has to be. If you wanted to you could make a heater that ran the length of the keel the exhaust would be cool when it came out of the end but the un-burnt hydrocarbons might eventually clog the inner tube from being cooled in such a long run. If you could have a chimney sweep type tool to clean the pipe periodicly you could use a radiator type system to heat the whole boat. With a holding tank you could run radiant heat tubing like they use in homes under the decks. This would do very well in a boat that cruises in colder climates. I am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. I have wished for just an once of cold water to run in my shower in boats I have sailed in down to South America. The cold water or supposed to be cold water was nearly 95 degrees most of the time and you could not use a swamp cooler because the humidity was always way to high to cool anything. I want to try to rig some peltier coolers to some cooper tubing with air blowing on the heat sinks to cool them. It will give needed cold water on trips in the tropics. First before all these ideas I need to build an 100 foot boat to haul all the things I designed for extended cruising. I want to have a large battery storage capacity with wind generator and photovoltaic cells. Add to that a generator drive system that can drive the boat or turn the prop to create electricity when sailing and it needs room. They have an electric toilet that works very well and turns everything into ashes. With the cost of pump outs gone you just need more power. I plan on having two spare water makers on hand just in case and each one can make twenty gallons an hour. In most South American ports that I might sail into you do not want to drink the local water. You don't want to make water in port either because sanitation along the shore is unheard of in most places. John --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle wrote: > John, > I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing > your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any > possibility of a diagram? > Scott Carle > > > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > > pipe heat that > > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > > with a mixture of > > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > > resistant cement. I > > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > > pounds of aluminum > > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > > stainless tube > > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > > id copper tube > > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > > with the cement > > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > > to release all of > > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > > tubing into a > > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > > without running out > > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > > but it sure beat > > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > > boat. Sorry I > > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > > heater since most > > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > > without using > > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > > existing boat is > > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > > building the boat > > new. > > > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4973|4739|2004-08-08 16:52:43|jp4sail|Re: To uncle Ben / building in frameless Aluminum|Thanks a lot Ben. But i got a problem, i joined the group and everything but I'm having my access to the file section denied. Could you help? Thanx again JPaes --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > Orca and Rando are frameless build in thick aluminum > see the building pics in Files over there. > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > wrote: > > Hi JP , sorry I kept you waiting but I found the info you > > requested about Orca , you will find pics , plans , tests > > in the Files I posted for you in : > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > > just have a peak and take what you want and need , > > no discussions over there please its just a repositary > > place for info . > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > > wrote: > > > Hi ,sory I am on holiday sailing but I will forward you the info > > > as soon as back home , by the end of next week inch allah > > > Regards > > > ben_azo > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" > > > wrote: > > > > Dear uncle Ben > > > > > > > > Do you by any chance have the contacts with the designer > os > > the > > > > French aluminum centerboarder? Do you know if the > building > > plans > > > for > > > > that design are available for amateur construction? How > > about the > > > > Puck 7.7? > > > > Thanx > > > > JPaes | 4974|4739|2004-08-08 17:38:56|ben_azo|Re: To uncle Ben / building in frameless Aluminum|Hi JP, I just went over , all clear realy , could be I was uploading even more for you , I just found more info and its all there for your attention pics , plans etcetera . Please try again . Regards --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" wrote: > Thanks a lot Ben. But i got a problem, i joined the group and > everything but I'm having my access to the file section denied. > Could you help? Thanx again > JPaes > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" wrote: > > Orca and Rando are frameless build in thick aluminum > > see the building pics in Files over there. > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > > wrote: > > > Hi JP , sorry I kept you waiting but I found the info you > > > requested about Orca , you will find pics , plans , tests > > > in the Files I posted for you in : > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull/ > > > just have a peak and take what you want and need , > > > no discussions over there please its just a repositary > > > place for info . > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "ben_azo" > > > wrote: > > > > Hi ,sory I am on holiday sailing but I will forward you the > info > > > > as soon as back home , by the end of next week inch allah > > > > Regards > > > > ben_azo > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "jp4sail" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear uncle Ben > > > > > > > > > > Do you by any chance have the contacts with the designer > > os > > > the > > > > > French aluminum centerboarder? Do you know if the > > building > > > plans > > > > for > > > > > that design are available for amateur construction? How > > > about the > > > > > Puck 7.7? > > > > > Thanx > > > > > JPaes | 4975|4934|2004-08-08 21:18:01|Gary H. Lucas|Re: Water Heater|Henri, That is a bad idea. You would be constantly adding fresh oxygen to your cooling system and you would eat up you engine in no time. Gary H. Lucas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Naths" To: Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > ps why could'nt a person run fresh water thru the cooling system for an additional source of hot water? > Henri > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Cupp > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:46 PM > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > Scott, > > It is very simple to Imagine a thirty inch or bigger stainless steel > drum that has a four inch Stainless steel exhaust pipe through the > center and on end open still. You then take a coil of large copper > tubing and place it over the center pipe with both ends of the coil > coming out of the open end. You then take the mixture of aluminum > and cement and pour it in to the drum but not down the exhaust pipe > so that it covers the coil around the pipe and fills the drum to the > edge. You then vibrte the cement mxture so the air bubbles will exit > the mixture. > > Now you place an end on the drum that has holes for the two ends of > the copper tubing and a large hole for the exhaust pipe. You flow > water through the pipe while the drum is hooked to the exhaust and it > heats the water very fast. You are only confined by the size of > the water heater by how long the exhaust has to be. If you wanted to > you could make a heater that ran the length of the keel the exhaust > would be cool when it came out of the end but the un-burnt > hydrocarbons might eventually clog the inner tube from being cooled > in such a long run. If you could have a chimney sweep type tool to > clean the pipe periodicly you could use a radiator type system to > heat the whole boat. With a holding tank you could run radiant heat > tubing like they use in homes under the decks. > > This would do very well in a boat that cruises in colder climates. I > am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. I have > wished for just an once of cold water to run in my shower in boats I > have sailed in down to South America. The cold water or supposed to > be cold water was nearly 95 degrees most of the time and you could > not use a swamp cooler because the humidity was always way to high to > cool anything. I want to try to rig some peltier coolers to some > cooper tubing with air blowing on the heat sinks to cool them. It > will give needed cold water on trips in the tropics. > > First before all these ideas I need to build an 100 foot boat to haul > all the things I designed for extended cruising. I want to have a > large battery storage capacity with wind generator and photovoltaic > cells. Add to that a generator drive system that can drive the boat > or turn the prop to create electricity when sailing and it needs > room. They have an electric toilet that works very well and turns > everything into ashes. With the cost of pump outs gone you just need > more power. I plan on having two spare water makers on hand just in > case and each one can make twenty gallons an hour. In most South > American ports that I might sail into you do not want to drink the > local water. You don't want to make water in port either because > sanitation along the shore is unheard of in most places. > > John > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle > wrote: > > John, > > I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing > > your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any > > possibility of a diagram? > > Scott Carle > > > > > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > > > pipe heat that > > > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > > > with a mixture of > > > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > > > resistant cement. I > > > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > > > pounds of aluminum > > > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > > > stainless tube > > > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > > > id copper tube > > > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > > > with the cement > > > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > > > to release all of > > > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > > > tubing into a > > > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > > > > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > > > without running out > > > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > > > but it sure beat > > > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > > > boat. Sorry I > > > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > > > heater since most > > > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > > > without using > > > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > > > existing boat is > > > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > > > building the boat > > > new. > > > > > > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > | 4976|4934|2004-08-09 00:25:30|John Cupp|Re: Water Heater|I built the water heater unit and it is now on a boat that is used all the time. For its size it does not weigh as much as some might think. A drum of antifreeze weighs in at over 480 lbs A drum of oil goes around 360 lbs. My heater weighs about 180 lbs wet. When I used this device on a Perkins without a turbo by the way it causes a build up of soot on the outlet end. I have been a mechanic for years and after you dismount mufflers from a caterpillar track dozer with a turbo it is packet with soot. The reason is that starting and acceleration causes this deposit to form and when the exhaust cools it is easier for it to cling to the walls of the heater. I will probably use a small car conversion diesel engine and the computer controlled engine with a turbo is less likely to leave soot deposits because every aspect of the engine is run from the computer. My system really works and it even uses less power than a tankless water on demand heater popular in bigger mega yachts. One could also shield the outer layer of the canister with insulation so all of the heat is absorbed by the copper cooling pipe. Yes I agree it is a very bad thing to run plain water through a drive motor for water heating. I test my antifreeze PH and many other tests on my Diesel pickup to stop electrolyses. I will run a keel cooler for my drive motor and maybe the generator also. They will be sealed systems. The Motorsailer is a perfect candidate for using my water heater. You can run the motor to gain extra speed and get the whole crew a shower at the same time. I designed it because it is a wasted source of heat that should be used. I also have several solar showers that I use when camping and it is another good way to heat water without using power but it is hard to fill those bladders and they don't hold enough waer to take a nice long shower. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Henri, > That is a bad idea. You would be constantly adding fresh oxygen to your > cooling system and you would eat up you engine in no time. > > Gary H. Lucas > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henri Naths" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 2:54 PM > Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > > ps why could'nt a person run fresh water thru the cooling system for an > additional source of hot water? > > Henri > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John Cupp > > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: 07 August, 2004 10:46 PM > > Subject: [origamiboats] Re: Water Heater > > > > > > Scott, > > > > It is very simple to Imagine a thirty inch or bigger stainless steel > > drum that has a four inch Stainless steel exhaust pipe through the > > center and on end open still. You then take a coil of large copper > > tubing and place it over the center pipe with both ends of the coil > > coming out of the open end. You then take the mixture of aluminum > > and cement and pour it in to the drum but not down the exhaust pipe > > so that it covers the coil around the pipe and fills the drum to the > > edge. You then vibrte the cement mxture so the air bubbles will exit > > the mixture. > > > > Now you place an end on the drum that has holes for the two ends of > > the copper tubing and a large hole for the exhaust pipe. You flow > > water through the pipe while the drum is hooked to the exhaust and it > > heats the water very fast. You are only confined by the size of > > the water heater by how long the exhaust has to be. If you wanted to > > you could make a heater that ran the length of the keel the exhaust > > would be cool when it came out of the end but the un-burnt > > hydrocarbons might eventually clog the inner tube from being cooled > > in such a long run. If you could have a chimney sweep type tool to > > clean the pipe periodicly you could use a radiator type system to > > heat the whole boat. With a holding tank you could run radiant heat > > tubing like they use in homes under the decks. > > > > This would do very well in a boat that cruises in colder climates. I > > am still working n figuring how to cool water in the tropics. I have > > wished for just an once of cold water to run in my shower in boats I > > have sailed in down to South America. The cold water or supposed to > > be cold water was nearly 95 degrees most of the time and you could > > not use a swamp cooler because the humidity was always way to high to > > cool anything. I want to try to rig some peltier coolers to some > > cooper tubing with air blowing on the heat sinks to cool them. It > > will give needed cold water on trips in the tropics. > > > > First before all these ideas I need to build an 100 foot boat to haul > > all the things I designed for extended cruising. I want to have a > > large battery storage capacity with wind generator and photovoltaic > > cells. Add to that a generator drive system that can drive the boat > > or turn the prop to create electricity when sailing and it needs > > room. They have an electric toilet that works very well and turns > > everything into ashes. With the cost of pump outs gone you just need > > more power. I plan on having two spare water makers on hand just in > > case and each one can make twenty gallons an hour. In most South > > American ports that I might sail into you do not want to drink the > > local water. You don't want to make water in port either because > > sanitation along the shore is unheard of in most places. > > > > John > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Scott Carle > > wrote: > > > John, > > > I must be slow today but I'm having trouble picturing > > > your water heater. It sounds nice though. Any > > > possibility of a diagram? > > > Scott Carle > > > > > > > I have made a water heater from using the exhaust > > > > pipe heat that > > > > works very well. I wrap a section of 4" SS pipe > > > > with a mixture of > > > > copper tubing and aluminum mixed with high temp > > > > resistant cement. I > > > > went to a friends machine shop and he gave me 25 > > > > pounds of aluminum > > > > chips from machining . I put all of this inside a > > > > stainless tube > > > > about 30" in diameter and 5' long with a one inch > > > > id copper tube > > > > wrapped around the 4" center stainless exhaust pipe > > > > with the cement > > > > and aluminum mixture poured into this then vibrated > > > > to release all of > > > > the air bubbles. I then ran the covered copper > > > > tubing into a > > > > insulated 20 gallon holding tank. > > > > > > > > What a nice thing to be able to have a hot shower > > > > without running out > > > > of hot water. Now I am still frugal with the water > > > > but it sure beat > > > > the six gallon water heater that was already on the > > > > boat. Sorry I > > > > got off track but I thought I should pass on this > > > > heater since most > > > > of the exhaust pipes I have seen just exit the boat > > > > without using > > > > this source of heat energy. To modify an already > > > > existing boat is > > > > much harder than installing this as a fixture when > > > > building the boat > > > > new. > > > > > > > > > > > > John Cupp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ -------- > ---- > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > | 4977|4977|2004-08-09 07:08:21|Tony Vazquez|Alumimum Hull Paint|am getting ready to launch my alumium Boat. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestion on paint brands and systems for the bottom and top. I can't make up my mind. thanks tony --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4978|4977|2004-08-09 10:40:22|Bill Jaine|Re: Alumimum Hull Paint|Rustoleum ,Tremclad etc, cheap and good and easy to apply Bill Port Hope. Canada -----Original Message----- From: Tony Vazquez [mailto:tonyic2000@...] Sent: 9-Aug-04 7:08 AM To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Subject: [origamiboats] Alumimum Hull Paint am getting ready to launch my alumium Boat. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestion on paint brands and systems for the bottom and top. I can't make up my mind. thanks tony --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HYPERLINK "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ocnpa1/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/ D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092136103/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG=13 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp?redirect=rv_boat_camp.as p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" HYPERLINK "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_06080 4.jpg" HYPERLINK "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=group s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=865976148" _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com/gro up/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HYPERLINK "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"ori gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4979|4900|2004-08-09 11:34:22|ben_azo|26' Plans / interior samples posted for you|Hi Brent, you can find some interior samples in the Album : 26' general info , interiors,pics,tests etcetera I posted for you in the Files of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seabull its just an info repository , please no discussions over there I think the design you purchased sure will look better than the Eventide ; Boorer Bee the 24' sailed from India via the Red Sea to the UK . If you need help for an original doghouse & interior design just ask for it .Glad to assist. Ben --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Brent Geery wrote: > On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 05:20:24 -0000, "pascalibook" > wrote: > > > Thanks for the answer. > > Please give the directions to order your book. > > Whats the name of the book? > > How and where to order it ? > > How much do it costs ? > > Is there a website link you can give me? > > Thanks in advance > > Pascal > > Compiled from the archived messages: > > #Plans for the 26' are $200, for the 31' $300, for the 36' $350 > #and for the 40' $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book. > # > #Plans include the basic shell (hull, deck, rudder, skeg, keel), mast, > #rigging, sails, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, deck layout, interior > #layouts, detail drawings (hatches, self steering, bow roller, rudder > #fittings, chainplates, mooring bitts, cleats, handrails, ballast, > #exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc.) > # > #A copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a > #Heretic's Guide" (illus., 100 pages, paperback) is US$20 plus $3 for > #postage. > # > #The book has drawings for the roller furling, anchor winch, self > #steering, engine mounts, running pole fittings, jibsheet leads, > #dinghy, chine doubler plates, sheerlegs, mast support, tabernacle, > #bow roller, head, etc. > # > #To order plans/books, send payment in US funds (except Canadain > #orders) to: > #Brent Swain > #3798 Laurel Drive, > #Royston, British Columbia, > #Canada > #V0R-2V0 > > Now I'll give you my own info. Despite what the above info says, the > plans for the 26' I received did not contain all the info that I > thought it would. It consists of 5 sheets: Lines, Deck Layout and > Hull Plate and Keel Placement, Sail Plan, Mast and Rigging, Rigging > Details. It does not include (as I thought they would) any details > for the skeg, tankage, hatches, hatch hinges, interior layouts, self > steering, rudder and fittings, chainplates, handrails, ballast, > exhaust, keel cooler, mast support, tabernacle, etc. > > I'm not dissing the plans, just letting you know what to expect from > them. They were less detailed than I had hoped, given the > descriptions of what was supposedly included. Much of this missing > info is included in Brent's book. Other bits can be gleaned from the > archived messages here. Personally, I'd still like to see some sample > interior designs, as I'm probably going to get hung up trying to come > up with a workable layout from scratch. > > -- > BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) > > Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org > Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films| 4980|4980|2004-08-09 20:15:44|sae140|GPS software|Thought I'd pass this on:- see: http://www.gpsu.co.uk/ for a neat program which enables you to plot your gps course in real-time onto a scanned bitmap of the chart of your choice (which you've previously calibrated, of course), plus other useful gps utilities. There's a freeware version with limited routes/waypoints, otherwise it's fully functional. Register ($30) for no limitations. There's also a Yahoo support group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsu At the moment you have to load a new chart manually as you drop off the edge of the current chart, but auto-load is at the top of the "to do" list. Colin| 4981|4977|2004-08-09 20:17:40|John Cupp|Re: Alumimum Hull Paint|I you paint any aluminum alloy with paint you better use zinc oxide primer paint on it first. It is the only primer that will stick to the alloy and not let the paint bubble and peel off. I have a few gallons on hand all the time but where protection when you paint with it also. If you are going to use any polyurethane paints (2 part) don't use them below the water line because if submerged they absorb water and will peel off in a few months. I suggest that you find a dealer for Gluvit marine epoxy paint. I use it on anything below the water that someone wants painted. It also works as a sort of lubricant when you scrape over a rock or submerged object and will stop it from scraping alloy away. In my opinion regular paint below the waterline is wasted on alloy. If you do not use Gluvit then don't paint below the water line at all. The aluminum oxide that forms on an alloy hull is better protection than regular paint. John Cupp --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Jaine" wrote: > Rustoleum ,Tremclad etc, cheap and good and easy to apply > > Bill > Port Hope. Canada > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Vazquez [mailto:tonyic2000@y...] > Sent: 9-Aug-04 7:08 AM > To: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [origamiboats] Alumimum Hull Paint > > am getting ready to launch my alumium Boat. I was wondering if anyone > had any suggestion on paint brands and systems for the bottom and top. I > can't make up my mind. > thanks > > tony > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > HYPERLINK > "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ocnpa1/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294 649/ > D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092136103/A=2181364/R=2/id=noscript/SIG= 13 > 04ck1na/*http:/www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.as > p&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002" > > HYPERLINK > "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_300x250_0 6080 > 4.jpg" > > HYPERLINK > "http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l? M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294649/D=group > s/S=:HM/A=2181364/rand=865976148" > > _____ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > * To visit your group on the web, go to: > HYPERLINK > "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/"http://groups.yahoo.com /gro > up/origamiboats/ > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > HYPERLINK > "mailto:origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com? subject=Unsubscribe"ori > gamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK > "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 06/08/2004 > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4982|4970|2004-08-10 00:05:19|John Jones|Re: Twin Keel Construction 40'|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > Care to share any more details on the 40's twin keel materials etc: The > materials list starts off with "this much I do know" and then it runs off the > page and becomes a little scetchy....Any help? > John Oh c'mon........ someone's gotta Know summthinn. John| 4983|4970|2004-08-10 00:26:35|Alex|Re: Twin Keel Construction 40'|I just checked that file, and it appears that you have to scroll "right" to see the rest of the sentence. The rest of the materials appear on the screen without the need to scroll. I don't know why it went off the screen like that -- blame Yahoo! If your screen won't allow you to read the words, email me at achristie@... and I'll send you the file. Alex --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Jones" wrote: > > Care to share any more details on the 40's twin keel materials etc: The > > materials list starts off with "this much I do know" and then it runs off the > > page and becomes a little scetchy....Any help? > > John > > Oh c'mon........ someone's gotta Know summthinn. John | 4984|4984|2004-08-10 01:46:02|kingsknight4life|Moving Lead???|Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is an easy and cheap way to move it? Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton truck? Thanks Rowland| 4986|4986|2004-08-10 03:05:26|rainmaker19542002|Re: GPS Software|I've been using SeaClear for 5 years now. It's from Olle Soderholm at: XX.seaclear@... (Replace XX with "05" -Spam protection-). AFAIC, Olle is just short of god status. Seaclear is free, and can be had at http://www.sping.com/seaclear. I've used a lot of plotting software, and I own Maptech's Offshore Navigator. Seaclear is my favorite for a lot of reasons: It's small. It's fast. It will display the ship on a chart, as well as current position, speed and direction. New charts are loaded as needed when set up for automatic loading. The track may be traced to a file. Routes may be created and used to assist in the navigation. SeaClear II can use most BSB/KAP version 1 - 3 and GEO/NOS commercial charts. Most common projections are supported. Chart datum's are supported. You can add your own charts, scan or capture them, save as PNG, BMP or other common format. Skewed and rotated charts can be calibrated. Chart border can be set to reduce the actual chart area. The GPS must be capable of transmitting the NMEA 1.5 or 2.0 RMC message. The Autopilot must be capable of accepting NMEA 1.5 APA or NMEA 2.0 APB message. Requires Windows 95 or better. Give it a shot. I think you'll be impressed.| 4987|4984|2004-08-10 03:20:52|John Jones|Re: Moving Lead???|-I know it may sound silly..... but rent a chainsaw and use it to cut up the lead into smaller easier to handle partts and don't ferget to pickup what the saw left behind. .... Lead is "soft" and cuts easily with a chainsaw,,,,, it may require cleaning but ....... like leaded fuel .... it is a lubricant, although "thick" Have fun John -- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a > 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel > requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead > is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is > an easy and cheap way to move it? > Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton > truck? > Thanks Rowland | 4988|4984|2004-08-10 15:23:52|woodcraftssuch|Re: Moving Lead???|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "kingsknight4life" wrote: > Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a > 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel > requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead > is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is > an easy and cheap way to move it? > Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton > truck? > Thanks Rowland I don't know what a flatdeck with a hiab is, but maybe you can have a car tow truck move it. One of those where the flatbed tilts to the ground and a winch pulls the car onto the bed. The neighbor moved some huge logs that way.| 4989|4986|2004-08-10 20:23:13|Steve Rankin|Re: GPS Software|> It's small. It's fast. It will display the ship on a chart, as well > as current position, speed and direction. New charts are loaded as > needed when set up for automatic loading. The track may be traced to > a file. Routes may be created and used to assist in the navigation. > SeaClear II can use most BSB/KAP version 1 - 3 and GEO/NOS commercial > charts. Most common projections are supported. Chart datum's are > supported. You can add your own charts, scan or capture them, save as > PNG, BMP or other common format. Skewed and rotated charts can be > calibrated. Chart border can be set to reduce the actual chart area. > The GPS must be capable of transmitting the NMEA 1.5 or 2.0 RMC > message. The Autopilot must be capable of accepting NMEA 1.5 APA or > NMEA 2.0 APB message. Requires Windows 95 or better. > > Give it a shot. I think you'll be impressed. How do you add charts? I can't seem to find where to enter the directory. Steve| 4990|4986|2004-08-10 21:05:05|rainmaker19542002|Re: GPS Software|You run the "Mapcal_2" utility (a separate .exe program), go to "tools, set directories". If you're adding nos geo or other premade charts, you just copy them to the chart directory, run Mapcal_2, and go to "tools, autoload list, scan for new charts" or "update". The charts will then be added to the list and automatically loaded when SeaClear Starts. Look for "SeaClear Manual MMII En.pdf" in the Seaclear Directory. It's the manual in English. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, Steve Rankin wrote: > > > How do you add charts? I can't seem to find where to enter the directory. > > Steve | 4991|4953|2004-08-10 22:01:30|knutfg|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|Well, I have found the order information in the files section and I have also seen other replies to my query saying that the $ amounts are CAN if ordered in Canada and actually USD if ordered from anywhere outside of Canada. Fair enough, but far from obvious when nothing is said about it. The question I also raised about sending a personal check drawn on a US bank has not been touched yet. Can such a check be cashed in Canada? In other words, can I pay this way, or does it have to be done in a different way???? I do not live in Canada (Miami, FL) and I have no experience in this regard. Even if we only talk about 23 USD, I would still not like to just create a lot of hassle for Brent or for myself. Has anyone in the US bought the book? How was the practical procedure? I have the rates, address and all that, but would like to know for a fact that when I send the money I will also receive the book. I repeat my tip about PDF format and downloadable book version paid by credit card or PayPal. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file entitled: "A- > CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the file. > All will be revealed. Colin > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is given > > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD > (in > > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making it > > more accessible. | 4992|4984|2004-08-11 00:02:59|fmichael graham|Re: Moving Lead???|Rowland: I'll ask around the shop tomorrow, I know that a few of the guys have large trucks. what are the dimensions? how many pieces? Regards, Mike kingsknight4life wrote: Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is an easy and cheap way to move it? Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton truck? Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4993|4984|2004-08-11 00:07:01|fmichael graham|Re: Moving Lead???|How many pieces? Can't this guy read?lol fmichael graham wrote: Rowland: I'll ask around the shop tomorrow, I know that a few of the guys have large trucks. what are the dimensions? how many pieces? Regards, Mike kingsknight4life wrote: Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is an easy and cheap way to move it? Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton truck? Thanks Rowland To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! 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Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4994|4984|2004-08-11 03:14:11|John Cupp|Re: Moving Lead???|For those that don't know a "hiab" is a particular brand of boom lift. I think the are made in Sweden but they also make basket lifts for linemen or telephone workmen. You can rent a trailer if you have a pickup or stout car that can tow a two axle trailer. Be careful about the length because some ferries won't let on longer than average loads. Do you know the difference between San Francisco and Seattle? Seattle has Ferry terminals and San Francisco has terminal Ferries. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, fmichael graham wrote: > How many pieces? Can't this guy read?lol > > > fmichael graham wrote: > Rowland: > I'll ask around the shop tomorrow, I know that a few of the guys have large trucks. what are the dimensions? how many pieces? > Regards, > Mike > > > kingsknight4life wrote: > Can anyone out there help a fellow boat builder? I'm building a > 36ft. Swain boat and I've aquired almost enough lead to meet my keel > requirements? The problem is my boat is on the Island and the lead > is in the Lower Mainland. It is also in one 3400lb. piece. What is > an easy and cheap way to move it? > Anyone out there own a flatdeck with a hiab?? or maybe just a 1-ton > truck? > Thanks Rowland > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129e64pgi/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294 649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092203164/A=2196952/R=0/id=flashurl/ SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_1.swf ?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129e64pgi/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294 649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092203164/A=2196952/R=1/id=altimgurl /SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_0 61504.jpg";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats- unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299d2q9c/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294 649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092283399/A=2196952/R=0/id=flashurl/ SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/hm_ad_300x250_1.swf ?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299d2q9c/M=296967.5286862.6394559.3294 649/D=groups/S=1705150872:HM/EXP=1092283399/A=2196952/R=1/id=altimgurl /SIG=1304ck1na/*http://www.sodaclubusa.com/referrer.asp? redirect=rv_boat_camp.asp&referrer=0002_0015_0178_0002 ";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/so/sodaclub/alternate_320x250_0 61504.jpg";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > --------------------------------- > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | 4995|4953|2004-08-11 03:31:36|John Cupp|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|The major stumbling block with selling anything in PDF format is that copies can be made faster than the speed of light. That is a formula for theft and fraud that is inescapable in my opinion. The fees for publishing a book like Brent's are very high and must be paid by the writer in such a small niche market. If I were Brent I would closely guard my books and keep any material off the theft ridden internet. Some people write for fun and others for profit. The two are not compatible in such an open market that we have on the internet. I have ordered Brent's book and I used US funds in the form of a check. Most Canadian banks will cash US checks without any problem you just have to be patient and wait for the mail to arrive. If you had sent the check the first time you posted the check would probably be at that address now. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > Well, I have found the order information in the files section and I > have also seen other replies to my query saying that the $ amounts > are CAN if ordered in Canada and actually USD if ordered from > anywhere outside of Canada. Fair enough, but far from obvious when > nothing is said about it. > > The question I also raised about sending a personal check drawn on a > US bank has not been touched yet. Can such a check be cashed in > Canada? In other words, can I pay this way, or does it have to be > done in a different way???? I do not live in Canada (Miami, FL) and > I have no experience in this regard. Even if we only talk about 23 > USD, I would still not like to just create a lot of hassle for Brent > or for myself. Has anyone in the US bought the book? How was the > practical procedure? I have the rates, address and all that, but > would like to know for a fact that when I send the money I will also > receive the book. > > I repeat my tip about PDF format and downloadable book version paid > by credit card or PayPal. > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > wrote: > > Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file entitled: "A- > > CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the > file. > > All will be revealed. Colin > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is > given > > > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in USD > > (in > > > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > > > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > > > > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > > > > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > > > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > > > > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making > it > > > more accessible. | 4996|4996|2004-08-11 04:28:43|Dennis H. Rutledal|SV: [origamiboats] Re: small computers for boats|Hi It's been a while since this topic has been up, but I have been away and haven't been able to read it before now. There has been some discussion about what kind of computers to choose, and how long they will last. The barebone computers have been mentioned, and in that regard I would like to point out some drawbacks with those computer cases. Since they are so small they have to give up something, and that is ventilation. As a result those systems will get very hot, which in turn will make the components fail faster than in an ordinary compuer cases (this I have from people that make a living of repairing computers). This could be a really big problem if you tend to spend a lot of time in very hot areas. The lack of ventilation also make the computer very vulnerable to dust, as this will clog up the system. Dust in the computer can also make it short circuit. If you do choose such a system remember to open it now and then, and clean it with pressurized air. When it comes to waterproofing, you can treat the boards with silicone spray. But be aware! Do not get too much silicone on top of those components that needs cooling. Unless you know a lot about computer hardware you should not do this. Personally I would go for a laptop if I could aford it. It can easily be moved between boat and home (if they are not the same). I would recomend to store it in a airtight plastic box when not in use, and preferrable not leaving it in plain sight as it will be tempting to steal it :) One last note: someone mentioned the use of CD/DVD, as they dont take up much space. Today you get very cheap cd recorders that allows you to make backup of all your work. Thus there is no excuse for not making a backup of all your vital data at least once a week, and store the disk a safe place. Very handy if the pc should get lost/stolen/drowned etc. BUT: Remember that if you travel in sunny areas direct sunlight will destroy your cd's in no time. Dont leave them exposed on a tabletop, but put them in a non transparent box. Best regards Dennis -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Brent Geery [mailto:fasttimes@...] Sendt: 20. juli 2004 04:15 Til: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Emne: Re: [origamiboats] Re: small computers for boats Regarding lowering the power usage of a "mini-PC" type system: Check out www.mini-itx.com www.epiacenter.com and www.viaarena.com for info on these small mini(and micro)-itx format mother boards. Find an old cheap/broken laptop that has a working LCD screen, that uses the LVDS interface (lots of them), and combine that with one of the mini-itx boards that has a LVDS option available. Add some memory, and a laptop hard hard drive, and you have a system almost as energy efficient as a laptop, and you have a PCI expansion port to play with. -- BRENT - The Usenet typo king. :) Fast Times At Ridgemont High Info http://www.FastTimesAtRidgemontHigh.org Voted #87 - American Film Institute's Top 100 Funniest American Films To Post a message, send it to: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT _____ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: origamiboats-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]| 4997|4953|2004-08-11 08:08:23|sae140|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|--- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > Well, I have found the order information in the files section and I > have also seen other replies to my query saying that the $ amounts > are CAN if ordered in Canada and actually USD if ordered from > anywhere outside of Canada. Fair enough, but far from obvious when > nothing is said about it. > > The question I also raised about sending a personal check drawn on a > US bank has not been touched yet. Can such a check be cashed in > Canada? In other words, can I pay this way, or does it have to be > done in a different way???? I do not live in Canada (Miami, FL) and > I have no experience in this regard. Even if we only talk about 23 > USD, I would still not like to just create a lot of hassle for Brent > or for myself. Has anyone in the US bought the book? How was the > practical procedure? I have the rates, address and all that, but > would like to know for a fact that when I send the money I will also > receive the book. > > I repeat my tip about PDF format and downloadable book version paid > by credit card or PayPal. Ok - point taken - it's not exactly obvious, but bear in mind that this is a peer-to-peer self-help group, not a marketing operation (although sometimes one does wonder .... !). I would suggest that anyone joining this group and finding themselves interested enough to buy either the book or plans (or both), could do a lot worse than work their way through the Files and Photographs sections, and then through the archives of past posts as well. That's a lot of work, but there are several files containing past posts which should hopefully make the process less painful. There are very few topics which haven't been covered before, and one or two - like how to get plans etc. - keep popping up with some regularity. Maybe there's a case for creating an FAQ's section as well (?) - but the Moderator (Alex) is busy bashing steel right now - and a fella's gotta get his priorities right !! On the subject of how to actually pay for Brent's book. There may be a need for a change of mind-set here. Brent is my kinda guy, and has something of a non-commercial approach to life. Hence his book is self-produced/self-published. This way he keeps the prices of his book and his plans to a minimum, doesn't rip-off his 'customers' (more like friends, really), and doesn't line someone else's pockets by the fruits of his own labours. To buy his book from the UK was a pain in the butt, as international payment methods charge big commissions. Eventually I bought paper currency and stuffed it into an envelope. I may even have paid in $CAN in error - I can't remember now - I do remember adding a couple of bills for the postage (which I guessed, 'cause I'd forgotten the amount). The book arrived pretty damned quick, despite Brent being at sea at the time. BS's father had enclosed a very nice personal note of thanks with the book. So - my suggestion (for anyone) is to think "fair-dealing, honesty and integrity" when dealing with Brent, rather than exercising the more usual need for guard and caution that most of us have become used to in our everyday commercial transactions. I guarantee you'll find the book to be the best investment you've ever made in your life, and will save you many more times your outlay. It's one of the very few books in my library I won't lend - 'cause a boomerang it ain't. Best wishes Colin| 4998|4996|2004-08-11 08:14:32|sae140|SV: [origamiboats] Re: small computers for boats|It seems to me that there are a couple of strategies to adopt regarding on-board navigation computers. The first of course is not to bother, and stick with a GPS and paper chart. The simplest computer approach is to use a laptop - perhaps a couple of old low-end 'disposable' ones (?) - plenty of s/h examples around. Personally I'd feel more comfortable with a modifed desktop: make a hermetically-sealed case from aluminium sheet with at least one double-skinned water-cooled panel (as used on nuclear submarines to cool their racks of 60's TTL logic). Or bond some copper tube to the sheet with epoxy. There's plenty of (indirect) coolant below your keel. Use a custom switch-mode power supply (no fan) to run the system directly from 12 volts. 60 watts or so should do it. Keep the power requirements to a minimum - under-clock a low-voltage pentium cpu with passive cooling, add passive heat-sink to any VLSI components, select minimum low-power memory and a spin-down hard drive accordingly - masses of suitable stuff on the s/h market. Then run minimal os - DOS or early Windows - to maintain a fair speed on a minimal hardware system. Use modern LCD screen, and a sealed membrane or inductric (scanning) keyboard rather than one which uses click switches. Personally, I'd be tempted to add a cartridge of self- indicating silica-gel to the case as well. If anyone wants to pursue the desk-top shock-proof/corrosion-proof strategy further, email me off-forum. Colin| 4999|4953|2004-08-11 11:12:54|knutfg|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|See your point about PDF. Thanks for the specifics regarding US checks in Canada. I just wanted to make sure. I am not in such a rush that I cannot wait until I know how to do it. (The instructions under the Files section needs update and completing). Knut --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" wrote: > The major stumbling block with selling anything in PDF format is that > copies can be made faster than the speed of light. That is a > formula for theft and fraud that is inescapable in my opinion. The > fees for publishing a book like Brent's are very high and must be > paid by the writer in such a small niche market. If I were Brent I > would closely guard my books and keep any material off the theft > ridden internet. > > Some people write for fun and others for profit. The two are not > compatible in such an open market that we have on the internet. I > have ordered Brent's book and I used US funds in the form of a > check. Most Canadian banks will cash US checks without any problem > you just have to be patient and wait for the mail to arrive. If you > had sent the check the first time you posted the check would probably > be at that address now. > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > Well, I have found the order information in the files section and I > > have also seen other replies to my query saying that the $ amounts > > are CAN if ordered in Canada and actually USD if ordered from > > anywhere outside of Canada. Fair enough, but far from obvious when > > nothing is said about it. > > > > The question I also raised about sending a personal check drawn on > a > > US bank has not been touched yet. Can such a check be cashed in > > Canada? In other words, can I pay this way, or does it have to be > > done in a different way???? I do not live in Canada (Miami, FL) and > > I have no experience in this regard. Even if we only talk about 23 > > USD, I would still not like to just create a lot of hassle for > Brent > > or for myself. Has anyone in the US bought the book? How was the > > practical procedure? I have the rates, address and all that, but > > would like to know for a fact that when I send the money I will > also > > receive the book. > > > > I repeat my tip about PDF format and downloadable book version paid > > by credit card or PayPal. > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" > > wrote: > > > Take a look in the "Files" section. There is a file entitled: "A- > > > CONTACT and BOOK ORDER INFORMATION -- BRENT SWAIN". Read the > > file. > > > All will be revealed. Colin > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > > > I have tried an email to find out if the book and postage is > > given > > > > in Can or US dollar (20 + 3). Also, can I send a US check in > USD > > > (in > > > > which amount) to Canada and finally receive the book?? I would > > > > appreciate instructions so I can get hold of the book. > > > > > > > > May I suggest a simpler solution (and much faster): > > > > > > > > Scan the book content and produce an Adobe PDF-file that can be > > > > downloaded after paying via credit card or PayPal. > > > > > > > > I would guess you could easily double the book sales by making > > it > > > > more accessible. | 5000|4953|2004-08-11 11:28:10|knutfg|Re: Brent Swain's book on steel boats (and aluminum?)|Hi, your points are also taken! My posting seems to have given the impression that my main concern was loosing the money, while I had in mind that if I sent off a US check that could not be cashed, this would also be a hassle in the other end and would delay the arrival of the book to my address. Anyway, I have found all that I need from the Files section in combination with the kind answers received from some og you and I am looking forward to reading the book when it arrives. Since the questions regarding buying the book are popping up repeatedly, I was probably not alone sitting with some question marks and I expect the book to be good enough that it should be easy to get. Thanks to all of you for the help. --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "sae140" wrote: > --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "knutfg" wrote: > > Well, I have found the order information in the files section and I > > have also seen other replies to my query saying that the $ amounts > > are CAN if ordered in Canada and actually USD if ordered from > > anywhere outside of Canada. Fair enough, but far from obvious when > > nothing is said about it. > > > > The question I also raised about sending a personal check drawn on > a > > US bank has not been touched yet. Can such a check be cashed in > > Canada? In other words, can I pay this way, or does it have to be > > done in a different way???? I do not live in Canada (Miami, FL) and > > I have no experience in this regard. Even if we only talk about 23 > > USD, I would still not like to just create a lot of hassle for > Brent > > or for myself. Has anyone in the US bought the book? How was the > > practical procedure? I have the rates, address and all that, but > > would like to know for a fact that when I send the money I will > also > > receive the book. > > > > I repeat my tip about PDF format and downloadable book version paid > > by credit card or PayPal. > > > Ok - point taken - it's not exactly obvious, but bear in mind that > this is a peer-to-peer self-help group, not a marketing operation > (although sometimes one does wonder .... !). I would suggest that > anyone joining this group and finding themselves interested enough to > buy either the book or plans (or both), could do a lot worse than > work their way through the Files and Photographs sections, and then > through the archives of past posts as well. That's a lot of work, > but there are several files containing past posts which should > hopefully make the process less painful. > There are very few topics which haven't been covered before, and one > or two - like how to get plans etc. - keep popping up with some > regularity. Maybe there's a case for creating an FAQ's section as > well (?) - but the Moderator (Alex) is busy bashing steel right now - > and a fella's gotta get his priorities right !! > > On the subject of how to actually pay for Brent's book. There may be > a need for a change of mind-set here. Brent is my kinda guy, and has > something of a non-commercial approach to life. Hence his book is > self-produced/self-published. This way he keeps the prices of his > book and his plans to a minimum, doesn't rip-off his 'customers' > (more like friends, really), and doesn't line someone else's pockets > by the fruits of his own labours. > > To buy his book from the UK was a pain in the butt, as international > payment methods charge big commissions. Eventually I bought paper > currency and stuffed it into an envelope. I may even have paid in > $CAN in error - I can't remember now - I do remember adding a couple > of bills for the postage (which I guessed, 'cause I'd forgotten the > amount). The book arrived pretty damned quick, despite Brent being at > sea at the time. BS's father had enclosed a very nice personal note > of thanks with the book. > > So - my suggestion (for anyone) is to think "fair-dealing, honesty > and integrity" when dealing with Brent, rather than exercising the > more usual need for guard and caution that most of us have become > used to in our everyday commercial transactions. > > I guarantee you'll find the book to be the best investment you've > ever made in your life, and will save you many more times your > outlay. It's one of the very few books in my library I won't lend - > 'cause a boomerang it ain't. > > Best wishes > > Colin |